March 19, 2024 • 20 mins
At best the employer / employee relationship is complicated. Of course there are great organizations with great leaders and inspiring culture where things operate amazingly, but by and large (and unfortunately) the perpetually frustrated employee is the rule.
On this episode Matt and Drew go through a few responses to the poll that asked our listeners to fill in this blank - "I wish my boss would ________ ." In response the guys give some direction on how leaders can better lead their teams and how followers can open up better communication with their leaders.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
So, matt, you posted something out on Instagram this
last week and the thing thatkind of makes us angry and I
mean that in the healthy sense,like the thing that we want for
leaders is we want leaders toget better Like we've got this
anger around leaders andemployees not working together,
not collaborating together to dogreat things right.
(00:38):
So you posted this likeanonymous feedback thing, like
hey, what do you wish your bossknew?
Or it was a fill in the blank,which I love, was super creative
and we got some really greatresponses.
And the thing that we weretalking about a minute ago,
before we started the episode,is there is the communication
pipeline between leaders andemployees.
(01:00):
Most of the time stays cloggedand jammed, and we did an
episode a while back you can goback and listen to it about
feedback and why that is.
It has a lot to do withpsychological safety, has a lot
to do with the impact onpeople's financial situation,
but leaders, by and large,leaders and employees are not
talking right and so or at leastnot talking about the important
(01:21):
stuff.
So the reason why we want to dothese episodes is we're hoping
to be a safe place for employeesand leaders to say, hey, let's
talk to the fraction X guysabout this, and so we're going
to do a couple episodes on thiskind of thing.
So the first episode and again,we're going to pick on
everybody, we're not justpicking on one side or another,
because I think leaders need tolead better and followers need
to follow better right, andeveryone's a leader.
(01:42):
I get that, but I think thereis something to just being a
good employee as well, and sowe're going to get into that.
But today we're going to focuson this leadership topic.
A couple of them came through.
You know, you never knew whatyou were going to get online
right.
So I like the one that just saidget hit by a bus.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yes, so I wish my boss would blank.
Yeah, and the get hit by a buswas the first one that came in
and we don't condone violencewith a bus.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
In their defense.
They didn't say that they weregoing to hit them with a bus.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
They just said just hope.
Just hope is not a strategy.
I feel like that we.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
There's less buses these days, so they'll get hit
by.
Something else is probably alittle more.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, I think you said this a second ago when
there's clogged up feedbackchannels, it's just a recipe for
distrust and contention andthings that really break down
relationships.
And so, yeah, it can get to apoint in an employee and
employer relationship where it'slike this is so unhealthy that
(02:51):
I'd rather you just go away thanme actually solve the problem
with communication.
Yeah, which is it gets there?
I understand that.
Yeah, I mean, if you, if you,you know there's just all these
tropes about just like man, myboss is an idiot, I hate my boss
and that's just so pervasive inculture and we've talked about
this before like.
One of my biggest like painpoints is that bad leadership is
(03:12):
so expensive and it's prettyinexpensive to fix a lot of
times itself, awareness andpersonal development, and you
can become a better manager, youcan become a better leader with
a couple small tweaks.
So, asking this question andyou want to read some more of
the answers, you know it's likesomebody said hey, don't pay me
in compliments, pay me moremoney.
And I can only imagine in thissituation, maybe the leaders
(03:32):
Love language is words ofaffirmation.
Yeah, they're like oh, I'mreally doing this guy a solid,
I'm gonna pay them incompliments and the employees
like man you say I'm awesome.
Yep, can it show up in mypaycheck?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Well, it reminds me I did, with my team along.
This is a long time ago.
I did this thing I forgetexactly what it was, but it
basically went through and theytook a quiz on the things that
they value the most.
Right cuz.
As leaders, we tend to dish outbased on what we, how we,
receive right.
I'm a words of affirmation guytoo, so in my leadership I
probably have been this personbefore right where I'm dishing
(04:03):
out tons of compliments.
But as I did, I realized I hadone guy on my team that really
valued Travel.
Okay, he wanted to travel moreand I didn't think about so like
anytime I went to a conferenceor did something else, I would
always be like, hey, you want togo with me on this?
Good cuz, I knew one of thethings that was.
It was actually really high onhis list.
It was some of that freedom ontop of me.
Now Some people are just I needto admit I'm here to make money
(04:26):
, right.
Some people are a little morelike I've always been, you know,
not so much now in my life, butI've always been more like I
want to be, belong to a team, Iwant purpose.
Money hasn't been the highestvalue for me.
Now you have four kids and acouple of them in college and
that starts to change a littlebit.
But but yeah, I think that isabsolutely true.
There's probably a words ofaffirmation.
Leader Dishon out the way thatthey want to be.
(04:49):
They want to be, they want toreceive, you know, recognition.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Some of these other ones was like hey, I'd like more
trust in my role.
You hired me, please trust me.
Someone said hey, please don'thold my previous mistakes
against me.
And one was like would you giveme some professional
development?
Like I'd like to grow, butyou're not giving me anything.
I wish my leader would developme.
Another one is will youappreciate the gifts I have,
(05:13):
even when they're really direct?
And so you know, there's someother studies like I did some
additional research and Forbesdid this study about a similar
topic, and you know, of course,this is a.
This is a hot topic the lastfew years, but, according to the
study, 88% of workers say whenthey're looking for a new
position, they want one that'sflexible and has autonomy with
their hours and location.
But this is the one that reallygot me.
(05:34):
86% of employees said theyprefer to work for a company
that prioritizes outcome overoutput.
I was like, yeah, we've talkedabout that a little bit more out
come over output, yeah so it'slike, hey, don't, it's not
really about the amount of hoursin my work, it's about the
amount of work in my hours, like, if you've hired me to do X,
don't put me on a KPI.
(05:55):
That's about you know quantity,you just, you just wanted this
one job done.
Let me go do this one job foryou, oh man, I, I'm glad you
brought that up.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I have a client right now and I won't mention their
name, but I remind them of thisoften and I think it's, I think
it's it's common.
I was gonna say normal, but youknow what's normal?
Right, it's common For a leaderwho's in an organization, who
is immersed in that organization, to really prioritize.
Are you grinding?
Next, are you with me in this?
(06:24):
Are you know, as opposed tosaying, hey, as long as you're
doing these things and there's,like you say, the KPIs, or even,
or even, is there ROI based onwhat you're doing, are you
adding value?
And I have a client that I haveto set that boundary with often
and say, hey, listen, here arethe things that I'm doing for
you.
This was our agreement, I'mmeeting these expectations, but
(06:44):
sometimes expatious.
Are you on call?
Can I call you anytime?
I'm like no.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
You're not my only right.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It's not our agreement, and I'm performing
for you at a high level still.
So I think I see that inleaders all the time, all the
time, and say it again, thoughit's outcomes.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, so it's 86% of employees, so they would prefer
to work for a company thatprioritizes outcomes over output
.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Just tell me what you need done, let me do it.
Let me do it and I'll do it ifyou trust me with it.
Yeah, I'll do it on my own time.
I'm like when I read through ofthese responses, I hear two
themes come up.
Okay, let's hear it.
I hear trust and and I hearvalue.
Okay, those are the two thingsthat most every employee is
(07:27):
asking for from their leader.
They're asking do you trust meand Do you value what I'm doing?
So, whether it's, whether it'sexpectations, output, whatever
that's a value thing, right, areyou?
Will you compensate me for whatI'm doing?
All that's like value, right?
Do you care about me?
One there was a season whereyou were my boss, right, you're?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
my leader Yep.
Do you remember that?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
No, I know it always felt like I was in charge, but
you probably feel you get atiger by the tail at all times.
But one thing I loved about yourleadership is you always made
me feel valued because youworked hard to understand my
wiring.
I think a lot of leaders missthat.
A lot of leaders want theemployee to adapt to them and
how they're wired.
(08:09):
I think great leaders do theextra work on Understanding how
that employee and it's why youshould only have so many direct
reports, right, and you have tofigure out for yourself how many
that should be.
But you knew.
You know, you knew I was in aroom seven.
You knew I love spontaneity.
You knew I love change.
You knew I needed just verballyprocessed.
Sometimes you just sit thereand listen to me vent.
(08:30):
And I remember times where youwould just say, hey, we got a
meeting and you would move it atthe last minute and I that was
a Strategy you had because youknew I got excited about not
sitting in your office but Goingover to Redbike.
Yeah, like, for me that wasexciting.
Okay, cool, yeah, let's go,let's go hang.
And and I think it's what makesan employee want to you know,
(08:51):
run through a wall for a boss islike Do you, do you value me
and then will you trust me to domy job.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, well, you, you've paid me this compliment
before and I'm grateful.
But there's another side tothat coin, and I think the
unstuck feedback we're talkingabout is once we knew oh hey, by
the way, matt, you're gonnalead Drew for this next season.
You came to me and said hey, IKnow how you're wired.
Yeah, here's a story in my pastwhere I worked for someone
wired like you and here's whereit went off the rails.
(09:19):
Yeah, and so you kind of gaveme a roadmap.
Hey, just so you know, like Iknow myself pretty well, I think
I understand you a little bitand here's a way we can work
together.
So maybe I executed it, but yougave me the road map, do you
remember?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
that, that paper I wrote.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Oh yeah, so I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Well, and I look back on it and so much of that was
fear.
It was you and I were, werepartners, we had already worked
together closely and I knew thatI trusted you and I respected
you as a leader.
But I had some fear aroundworking for a similar
personality that didn't work outas well for me before and so,
yeah, I was like, well, if I wasMatt, I think I'd really value
(09:56):
an employee coming in and sayingthis is what works for me and
this is what doesn't work for me.
Yeah, right, and a lot of itwas out of fear, right, like you
know, but a lot of it was justlike, well, I Think I'd
appreciate, you know, havingthose having that knowledge of
the employee.
So I think a lot of people talkabout leading up, and I think
leading up is just Oftentimesanother word for manipulation
(10:17):
and I think we got to be carefulabout that.
But there are ways to equipyour leader.
Yep, if you and here's onething I knew about you and this
is something I'm passionateabout you I knew you wanted to
be a good leader for me.
Most leaders want to be a goodleader for their employees.
We talked about this in theepisode about toxic leadership,
like Most leaders that I'veworked for didn't have ill
(10:40):
intent, like they wanted to careabout me.
They wanted to, they justdidn't have all the information
or they were fighting their ownbattles and weren't thinking
about me.
So I think a lot of times asemployees, us equipping our
leaders with more informationand having to trust them back,
(11:01):
trust the two way street ofsaying, hey, I know you want the
best for me, so I'm gonna workwith that assumption.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
You know, when I look at this list and I think about
that story, of course, anytimeyou're been smart and utilizing
tools that you have, whetherthat's emotional intelligence or
whatever, could those thingsslip into manipulation?
For sure, yeah.
But also it's like, if you knowso, if I'm, I wish my boss
would get hit by a bus kind ofemployee.
(11:28):
Maybe that relationship is insuch disrepair that it never
gets back on track.
But also it could be one ofthose moments where that
employee says, okay, you knowwhat, I'm gonna give my leader
grace that they've got maybemore on their plate than they
can manage right now, or they'renot being in over their head,
they may not have the competencyfor where they've been promoted
to and understand that happensto people.
So, an effort to repair therelationship or an effort to
(11:51):
build a bridge, I'm gonna givethem some tools.
Hey, so you know I'm leadingthis team.
Here are our challenges.
This is what you've asked me todo.
It would be really helpful ifyou could do X, y and Z.
So could that lean intomanipulation, maybe.
But it's also like.
It's almost like getting atreasure map.
Hey, we all want the treasure,we want great results.
We want a great work culture.
We want to have a greatrelationship with our leaders
(12:12):
and our teams.
Here's a pathway to go get it.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Man, I remember being really frustrated as a leader
when I would find things outthat my team was wrestling with
or struggling with and I waslike it would actually cause me
to question a lot of things likehow come did you not know I
cared enough about you for youto bring that to me?
And so that's on me as a leader, like for whatever reason they
(12:36):
didn't feel safe enough to bringthose things to me.
But I just remember thinkingwhy didn't you guys say
something Like use your voicetell me why do you think people
don't advocate for themselves?
I think, well, I think we writestories right and I think
there's a lot of fear thereabout how it's gonna be received
.
I always loved to try to likeas a leader.
(12:57):
If someone came to me wherethey were struggling, try to
like I want them to write thestory, like, hey, I can bring
this struggle to Drew and he'sgoing to be an advocate for me.
But it still would frustrate methat someone would hold on to
something for longer.
And I think some of it is wewant our bosses, we want our
(13:18):
leaders to feel like we'recapable and we don't need help
and we got this.
And I think if the leader iswilling to go first in
vulnerability and ask questionsand be like hey, I don't.
I don't know the answer to this.
I think it trickles down to you.
You create an environment ofthat, but I don't know what do
you think?
Speaker 1 (13:37):
And there's probably a lot there, I think, obviously
the culture says a lot.
So if you're an organizationwhere it's like we don't ask
questions, it's a don't ask,don't tell kind of place we just
plow through our work, well,that's not going to be a place
where people are going to bringthings to their leader that are
challenging.
So, but if the culture is right, it's like no, we do have a
culture of feedback and there'semployees who are withholding
for fear or lack of like.
(13:57):
You talked about Psychologicalsafety.
We never fully understand thepeople's stories that work for
us.
There could be some significanttrauma in their life where,
when they've tried to raise ared flag before in relationships
, they've been hurt, harmed forit, and so, like I'm not going
to do that in any environment,I'm going to be safe, no matter
what.
So safety for me is not sayingthe truth, it's not saying what
(14:21):
I'm experiencing or saying, andso a lot of times, organizations
will exactly do what they thinkthey're going to.
Hey, I raised a flag and I gotpunished for we talked about
that in the feedback episode.
It's never really worked outfor you, right, and so when I
think about this podcast, we aretrying to help leaders lead
better.
That's right.
And even if you have a boss wesaid this a minute ago you do
(14:42):
have things you're responsiblefor, you have influence over, so
you have leadership too, and sosometimes it's just being
willing to risk a.
They're not going to listen tomy idea or they're not going to
hear my experience.
That may not understand mystory in this moment, and I
think it's almost always worthrisking that.
Now again, there's always atension between letting the
employees really drive culturerather than the culture being
(15:04):
set by the visionary, theorganization, and you can get
pulled off mission byeverybody's you know small
personal preference.
I really think we should bedoing this kind of work, or I'd
like this system better.
Or maybe our PTO should be thisand you can get idea to death.
You know, when the I'm notgoing to the, the inmates are
running the asylum.
So you do need to have a reallyclear mission and vision or
(15:29):
really clear culture.
But inside a place that you'vebuilt like that, you can have
people, challenge and bringideas to you.
But if we go back to this, youknow idea of I wish my boss
would blank.
You know what I'm hearing.
There is frustration, yeah, andit's going to be on both sides,
no matter what you do,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
And I, as you're talking, one of the thought that
came up is at the end of theday, I think you got her as an
employee.
You have to wrestle with thequestion Do I think that my
leader wants me to win and won'tonce what's best for me
genuinely, and that there's aspectrum how you might feel on
that Right?
But I think if the answer islike yeah, I mean I think they
(16:11):
want me to win here, I thinkthey're, you know then you have
to be courageous and speaking upand advocating for yourself.
If the answer is like no, Idon't think and I have worked
for people where I've like Idon't think they want me to win
here, like I don't then at thatpoint you need to start making
decisions, to go in and dosomething else and you know if
that's, or even maybe have thatconversation, knowing it's
(16:33):
probably not going to lead to agreat destination, if that's
actually true and you verbalizethat you know.
But I think you know as as an,as an employee, I think, finding
the company Finding the courageto speak up, finding the
courage to have thoseconversations and finding the
courage to really like, do somesome, you know, like I've
(16:54):
mentioned before, when I workfor you, like man, I think Matt
really does care about me.
I know I'm a feeler and so itused to frustrate the crap out
of me when I would go to youwith all these feelings and you
would ask for data.
But that was a helpful questionLike, okay, I, you're feeling
all this stuff.
Like, do you have any examples?
(17:14):
Or any?
Like, can you?
Because sometimes it's just notfeeling the same and I think
that is true in our, in anemployee and leader relationship
.
Sometimes we feel all thesethings, but we need to be
willing to ask the questions tofind out what is actually true
and sometimes the leader cangive the leader an opportunity
to meet you in that.
You know that spot.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Well, you've heard the phrase Good, fast and cheap.
You get to pick two, right?
Yeah, there's probably someequivalent when it comes to
expectations for employees inany organization.
I think that most disappointingthing in life are just unmet
expectations.
And so right, sizingexpectations.
If you're an employee in anorganization, it's not going to
be everything for you.
(17:52):
It could be culture, it couldbe compensation, it could be
recognition, but you may not getall three of those things.
Maybe you're working at a placewhere you are getting
recognition and you areexperiencing a great culture,
but maybe you're not gettingcompensated the way you want to.
I'm not saying that list isexhausted, but maybe you're in a
place where it's got goodcompensation and good culture,
but it's like, hey, we're highperformance, so you're not going
to get compliments.
We expect you to do that, we'repaying you for that, so you may
(18:14):
not get it.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
That's your compliment, is the paycheck.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
That's right, yeah, and so there's no situations
ever going to be perfect, right?
So you have to decide.
What am I willing to live with?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
And most organizations take on the
personality of the point leaderand you got to.
Even before you join anorganization, I would interview
that point leader or find outlike what are the?
things that he cares about?
What are the things that theylike?
What's their love language?
If you will, you know the wordit that way, but find out what
(18:44):
are the things that fills themup, what are they passionate
about?
What do they care about?
Like, how do they?
Because that, most likely, isgoing to what's going to trickle
down through the organizationand you know.
One last thing I'll say is, Ithink, having an intentionality
around these conversations.
Don't leave them to chance.
Build them into yourone-on-ones, Like if you're
(19:06):
leading somebody.
Build questions into everyone-on-one that helps with this.
Like if we're looking throughthis and say, man, at the end of
the day, employees, whatthey're wanting most of all is
they want you to know do youtrust me and do you value me?
Yeah, and then you ask thequestions, you ask your employee
every single one-on-one Likehey, where do you feel like
(19:26):
maybe I'm not value, or where doyou need more value?
Where do you need more trust?
Where do you mean like, isthere anything I can do for you
as a leader?
Can I resource you better, likeinvite them into those things
and give them the opportunity asemployee to kind of say, oh,
they're asking me, let me and Ithink that's one thing.
I always try to have a questionin my one-on-one.
That was a feedback for opendialogue what am I not seeing?
(19:50):
A great question is what are myblind spots as a leader?
Can you help me with my blindspots and give them the
opportunity to speak into that?
Do you think that's a great?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
place to wrap, Nailed it.
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy,oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy,
oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy,oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy,
oh boy, oh boy.
So, matt, you posted something out on Instagram this
last week and the thing thatkind of makes us angry and I
mean that in the healthy sense,like the thing that we want for
leaders is we want leaders toget better Like we've got this
anger around leaders andemployees not working together,
not collaborating together to dogreat things right.
(00:38):
So you posted this likeanonymous feedback thing, like
hey, what do you wish your bossknew?
Or it was a fill in the blank,which I love, was super creative
and we got some really greatresponses.
And the thing that we weretalking about a minute ago,
before we started the episode,is there is the communication
pipeline between leaders andemployees.
(01:00):
Most of the time stays cloggedand jammed, and we did an
episode a while back you can goback and listen to it about
feedback and why that is.
It has a lot to do withpsychological safety, has a lot
to do with the impact onpeople's financial situation,
but leaders, by and large,leaders and employees are not
talking right and so or at leastnot talking about the important
(01:21):
stuff.
So the reason why we want to dothese episodes is we're hoping
to be a safe place for employeesand leaders to say, hey, let's
talk to the fraction X guysabout this, and so we're going
to do a couple episodes on thiskind of thing.
So the first episode and again,we're going to pick on
everybody, we're not justpicking on one side or another,
because I think leaders need tolead better and followers need
to follow better right, andeveryone's a leader.
(01:42):
I get that, but I think thereis something to just being a
good employee as well, and sowe're going to get into that.
But today we're going to focuson this leadership topic.
A couple of them came through.
You know, you never knew whatyou were going to get online
right.
So I like the one that just saidget hit by a bus.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yes, so I wish my boss would blank.
Yeah, and the get hit by a buswas the first one that came in
and we don't condone violencewith a bus.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
In their defense.
They didn't say that they weregoing to hit them with a bus.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
They just said just hope.
Just hope is not a strategy.
I feel like that we.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
There's less buses these days, so they'll get hit
by.
Something else is probably alittle more.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, I think you said this a second ago when
there's clogged up feedbackchannels, it's just a recipe for
distrust and contention andthings that really break down
relationships.
And so, yeah, it can get to apoint in an employee and
employer relationship where it'slike this is so unhealthy that
(02:51):
I'd rather you just go away thanme actually solve the problem
with communication.
Yeah, which is it gets there?
I understand that.
Yeah, I mean, if you, if you,you know there's just all these
tropes about just like man, myboss is an idiot, I hate my boss
and that's just so pervasive inculture and we've talked about
this before like.
One of my biggest like painpoints is that bad leadership is
(03:12):
so expensive and it's prettyinexpensive to fix a lot of
times itself, awareness andpersonal development, and you
can become a better manager, youcan become a better leader with
a couple small tweaks.
So, asking this question andyou want to read some more of
the answers, you know it's likesomebody said hey, don't pay me
in compliments, pay me moremoney.
And I can only imagine in thissituation, maybe the leaders
(03:32):
Love language is words ofaffirmation.
Yeah, they're like oh, I'mreally doing this guy a solid,
I'm gonna pay them incompliments and the employees
like man you say I'm awesome.
Yep, can it show up in mypaycheck?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Well, it reminds me I did, with my team along.
This is a long time ago.
I did this thing I forgetexactly what it was, but it
basically went through and theytook a quiz on the things that
they value the most.
Right cuz.
As leaders, we tend to dish outbased on what we, how we,
receive right.
I'm a words of affirmation guytoo, so in my leadership I
probably have been this personbefore right where I'm dishing
(04:03):
out tons of compliments.
But as I did, I realized I hadone guy on my team that really
valued Travel.
Okay, he wanted to travel moreand I didn't think about so like
anytime I went to a conferenceor did something else, I would
always be like, hey, you want togo with me on this?
Good cuz, I knew one of thethings that was.
It was actually really high onhis list.
It was some of that freedom ontop of me.
Now Some people are just I needto admit I'm here to make money
(04:26):
, right.
Some people are a little morelike I've always been, you know,
not so much now in my life, butI've always been more like I
want to be, belong to a team, Iwant purpose.
Money hasn't been the highestvalue for me.
Now you have four kids and acouple of them in college and
that starts to change a littlebit.
But but yeah, I think that isabsolutely true.
There's probably a words ofaffirmation.
Leader Dishon out the way thatthey want to be.
(04:49):
They want to be, they want toreceive, you know, recognition.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Some of these other ones was like hey, I'd like more
trust in my role.
You hired me, please trust me.
Someone said hey, please don'thold my previous mistakes
against me.
And one was like would you giveme some professional
development?
Like I'd like to grow, butyou're not giving me anything.
I wish my leader would developme.
Another one is will youappreciate the gifts I have,
(05:13):
even when they're really direct?
And so you know, there's someother studies like I did some
additional research and Forbesdid this study about a similar
topic, and you know, of course,this is a.
This is a hot topic the lastfew years, but, according to the
study, 88% of workers say whenthey're looking for a new
position, they want one that'sflexible and has autonomy with
their hours and location.
But this is the one that reallygot me.
(05:34):
86% of employees said theyprefer to work for a company
that prioritizes outcome overoutput.
I was like, yeah, we've talkedabout that a little bit more out
come over output, yeah so it'slike, hey, don't, it's not
really about the amount of hoursin my work, it's about the
amount of work in my hours, like, if you've hired me to do X,
don't put me on a KPI.
(05:55):
That's about you know quantity,you just, you just wanted this
one job done.
Let me go do this one job foryou, oh man, I, I'm glad you
brought that up.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I have a client right now and I won't mention their
name, but I remind them of thisoften and I think it's, I think
it's it's common.
I was gonna say normal, but youknow what's normal?
Right, it's common For a leaderwho's in an organization, who
is immersed in that organization, to really prioritize.
Are you grinding?
Next, are you with me in this?
(06:24):
Are you know, as opposed tosaying, hey, as long as you're
doing these things and there's,like you say, the KPIs, or even,
or even, is there ROI based onwhat you're doing, are you
adding value?
And I have a client that I haveto set that boundary with often
and say, hey, listen, here arethe things that I'm doing for
you.
This was our agreement, I'mmeeting these expectations, but
(06:44):
sometimes expatious.
Are you on call?
Can I call you anytime?
I'm like no.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
You're not my only right.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It's not our agreement, and I'm performing
for you at a high level still.
So I think I see that inleaders all the time, all the
time, and say it again, thoughit's outcomes.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, so it's 86% of employees, so they would prefer
to work for a company thatprioritizes outcomes over output
.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Just tell me what you need done, let me do it.
Let me do it and I'll do it ifyou trust me with it.
Yeah, I'll do it on my own time.
I'm like when I read through ofthese responses, I hear two
themes come up.
Okay, let's hear it.
I hear trust and and I hearvalue.
Okay, those are the two thingsthat most every employee is
(07:27):
asking for from their leader.
They're asking do you trust meand Do you value what I'm doing?
So, whether it's, whether it'sexpectations, output, whatever
that's a value thing, right, areyou?
Will you compensate me for whatI'm doing?
All that's like value, right?
Do you care about me?
One there was a season whereyou were my boss, right, you're?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
my leader Yep.
Do you remember that?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
No, I know it always felt like I was in charge, but
you probably feel you get atiger by the tail at all times.
But one thing I loved about yourleadership is you always made
me feel valued because youworked hard to understand my
wiring.
I think a lot of leaders missthat.
A lot of leaders want theemployee to adapt to them and
how they're wired.
(08:09):
I think great leaders do theextra work on Understanding how
that employee and it's why youshould only have so many direct
reports, right, and you have tofigure out for yourself how many
that should be.
But you knew.
You know, you knew I was in aroom seven.
You knew I love spontaneity.
You knew I love change.
You knew I needed just verballyprocessed.
Sometimes you just sit thereand listen to me vent.
(08:30):
And I remember times where youwould just say, hey, we got a
meeting and you would move it atthe last minute and I that was
a Strategy you had because youknew I got excited about not
sitting in your office but Goingover to Redbike.
Yeah, like, for me that wasexciting.
Okay, cool, yeah, let's go,let's go hang.
And and I think it's what makesan employee want to you know,
(08:51):
run through a wall for a boss islike Do you, do you value me
and then will you trust me to domy job.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, well, you, you've paid me this compliment
before and I'm grateful.
But there's another side tothat coin, and I think the
unstuck feedback we're talkingabout is once we knew oh hey, by
the way, matt, you're gonnalead Drew for this next season.
You came to me and said hey, IKnow how you're wired.
Yeah, here's a story in my pastwhere I worked for someone
wired like you and here's whereit went off the rails.
(09:19):
Yeah, and so you kind of gaveme a roadmap.
Hey, just so you know, like Iknow myself pretty well, I think
I understand you a little bitand here's a way we can work
together.
So maybe I executed it, but yougave me the road map, do you
remember?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
that, that paper I wrote.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Oh yeah, so I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Well, and I look back on it and so much of that was
fear.
It was you and I were, werepartners, we had already worked
together closely and I knew thatI trusted you and I respected
you as a leader.
But I had some fear aroundworking for a similar
personality that didn't work outas well for me before and so,
yeah, I was like, well, if I wasMatt, I think I'd really value
(09:56):
an employee coming in and sayingthis is what works for me and
this is what doesn't work for me.
Yeah, right, and a lot of itwas out of fear, right, like you
know, but a lot of it was justlike, well, I Think I'd
appreciate, you know, havingthose having that knowledge of
the employee.
So I think a lot of people talkabout leading up, and I think
leading up is just Oftentimesanother word for manipulation
(10:17):
and I think we got to be carefulabout that.
But there are ways to equipyour leader.
Yep, if you and here's onething I knew about you and this
is something I'm passionateabout you I knew you wanted to
be a good leader for me.
Most leaders want to be a goodleader for their employees.
We talked about this in theepisode about toxic leadership,
like Most leaders that I'veworked for didn't have ill
(10:40):
intent, like they wanted to careabout me.
They wanted to, they justdidn't have all the information
or they were fighting their ownbattles and weren't thinking
about me.
So I think a lot of times asemployees, us equipping our
leaders with more informationand having to trust them back,
(11:01):
trust the two way street ofsaying, hey, I know you want the
best for me, so I'm gonna workwith that assumption.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
You know, when I look at this list and I think about
that story, of course, anytimeyou're been smart and utilizing
tools that you have, whetherthat's emotional intelligence or
whatever, could those thingsslip into manipulation?
For sure, yeah.
But also it's like, if you knowso, if I'm, I wish my boss
would get hit by a bus kind ofemployee.
(11:28):
Maybe that relationship is insuch disrepair that it never
gets back on track.
But also it could be one ofthose moments where that
employee says, okay, you knowwhat, I'm gonna give my leader
grace that they've got maybemore on their plate than they
can manage right now, or they'renot being in over their head,
they may not have the competencyfor where they've been promoted
to and understand that happensto people.
So, an effort to repair therelationship or an effort to
(11:51):
build a bridge, I'm gonna givethem some tools.
Hey, so you know I'm leadingthis team.
Here are our challenges.
This is what you've asked me todo.
It would be really helpful ifyou could do X, y and Z.
So could that lean intomanipulation, maybe.
But it's also like.
It's almost like getting atreasure map.
Hey, we all want the treasure,we want great results.
We want a great work culture.
We want to have a greatrelationship with our leaders
(12:12):
and our teams.
Here's a pathway to go get it.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Man, I remember being really frustrated as a leader
when I would find things outthat my team was wrestling with
or struggling with and I waslike it would actually cause me
to question a lot of things likehow come did you not know I
cared enough about you for youto bring that to me?
And so that's on me as a leader, like for whatever reason they
(12:36):
didn't feel safe enough to bringthose things to me.
But I just remember thinkingwhy didn't you guys say
something Like use your voicetell me why do you think people
don't advocate for themselves?
I think, well, I think we writestories right and I think
there's a lot of fear thereabout how it's gonna be received
.
I always loved to try to likeas a leader.
(12:57):
If someone came to me wherethey were struggling, try to
like I want them to write thestory, like, hey, I can bring
this struggle to Drew and he'sgoing to be an advocate for me.
But it still would frustrate methat someone would hold on to
something for longer.
And I think some of it is wewant our bosses, we want our
(13:18):
leaders to feel like we'recapable and we don't need help
and we got this.
And I think if the leader iswilling to go first in
vulnerability and ask questionsand be like hey, I don't.
I don't know the answer to this.
I think it trickles down to you.
You create an environment ofthat, but I don't know what do
you think?
Speaker 1 (13:37):
And there's probably a lot there, I think, obviously
the culture says a lot.
So if you're an organizationwhere it's like we don't ask
questions, it's a don't ask,don't tell kind of place we just
plow through our work, well,that's not going to be a place
where people are going to bringthings to their leader that are
challenging.
So, but if the culture is right, it's like no, we do have a
culture of feedback and there'semployees who are withholding
for fear or lack of like.
(13:57):
You talked about Psychologicalsafety.
We never fully understand thepeople's stories that work for
us.
There could be some significanttrauma in their life where,
when they've tried to raise ared flag before in relationships
, they've been hurt, harmed forit, and so, like I'm not going
to do that in any environment,I'm going to be safe, no matter
what.
So safety for me is not sayingthe truth, it's not saying what
(14:21):
I'm experiencing or saying, andso a lot of times, organizations
will exactly do what they thinkthey're going to.
Hey, I raised a flag and I gotpunished for we talked about
that in the feedback episode.
It's never really worked outfor you, right, and so when I
think about this podcast, we aretrying to help leaders lead
better.
That's right.
And even if you have a boss wesaid this a minute ago you do
(14:42):
have things you're responsiblefor, you have influence over, so
you have leadership too, and sosometimes it's just being
willing to risk a.
They're not going to listen tomy idea or they're not going to
hear my experience.
That may not understand mystory in this moment, and I
think it's almost always worthrisking that.
Now again, there's always atension between letting the
employees really drive culturerather than the culture being
(15:04):
set by the visionary, theorganization, and you can get
pulled off mission byeverybody's you know small
personal preference.
I really think we should bedoing this kind of work, or I'd
like this system better.
Or maybe our PTO should be thisand you can get idea to death.
You know, when the I'm notgoing to the, the inmates are
running the asylum.
So you do need to have a reallyclear mission and vision or
(15:29):
really clear culture.
But inside a place that you'vebuilt like that, you can have
people, challenge and bringideas to you.
But if we go back to this, youknow idea of I wish my boss
would blank.
You know what I'm hearing.
There is frustration, yeah, andit's going to be on both sides,
no matter what you do,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
And I, as you're talking, one of the thought that
came up is at the end of theday, I think you got her as an
employee.
You have to wrestle with thequestion Do I think that my
leader wants me to win and won'tonce what's best for me
genuinely, and that there's aspectrum how you might feel on
that Right?
But I think if the answer islike yeah, I mean I think they
(16:11):
want me to win here, I thinkthey're, you know then you have
to be courageous and speaking upand advocating for yourself.
If the answer is like no, Idon't think and I have worked
for people where I've like Idon't think they want me to win
here, like I don't then at thatpoint you need to start making
decisions, to go in and dosomething else and you know if
that's, or even maybe have thatconversation, knowing it's
(16:33):
probably not going to lead to agreat destination, if that's
actually true and you verbalizethat you know.
But I think you know as as an,as an employee, I think, finding
the company Finding the courageto speak up, finding the
courage to have thoseconversations and finding the
courage to really like, do somesome, you know, like I've
(16:54):
mentioned before, when I workfor you, like man, I think Matt
really does care about me.
I know I'm a feeler and so itused to frustrate the crap out
of me when I would go to youwith all these feelings and you
would ask for data.
But that was a helpful questionLike, okay, I, you're feeling
all this stuff.
Like, do you have any examples?
(17:14):
Or any?
Like, can you?
Because sometimes it's just notfeeling the same and I think
that is true in our, in anemployee and leader relationship
.
Sometimes we feel all thesethings, but we need to be
willing to ask the questions tofind out what is actually true
and sometimes the leader cangive the leader an opportunity
to meet you in that.
You know that spot.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Well, you've heard the phrase Good, fast and cheap.
You get to pick two, right?
Yeah, there's probably someequivalent when it comes to
expectations for employees inany organization.
I think that most disappointingthing in life are just unmet
expectations.
And so right, sizingexpectations.
If you're an employee in anorganization, it's not going to
be everything for you.
(17:52):
It could be culture, it couldbe compensation, it could be
recognition, but you may not getall three of those things.
Maybe you're working at a placewhere you are getting
recognition and you areexperiencing a great culture,
but maybe you're not gettingcompensated the way you want to.
I'm not saying that list isexhausted, but maybe you're in a
place where it's got goodcompensation and good culture,
but it's like, hey, we're highperformance, so you're not going
to get compliments.
We expect you to do that, we'repaying you for that, so you may
(18:14):
not get it.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
That's your compliment, is the paycheck.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
That's right, yeah, and so there's no situations
ever going to be perfect, right?
So you have to decide.
What am I willing to live with?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
And most organizations take on the
personality of the point leaderand you got to.
Even before you join anorganization, I would interview
that point leader or find outlike what are the?
things that he cares about?
What are the things that theylike?
What's their love language?
If you will, you know the wordit that way, but find out what
(18:44):
are the things that fills themup, what are they passionate
about?
What do they care about?
Like, how do they?
Because that, most likely, isgoing to what's going to trickle
down through the organizationand you know.
One last thing I'll say is, Ithink, having an intentionality
around these conversations.
Don't leave them to chance.
Build them into yourone-on-ones, Like if you're
(19:06):
leading somebody.
Build questions into everyone-on-one that helps with this.
Like if we're looking throughthis and say, man, at the end of
the day, employees, whatthey're wanting most of all is
they want you to know do youtrust me and do you value me?
Yeah, and then you ask thequestions, you ask your employee
every single one-on-one Likehey, where do you feel like
(19:26):
maybe I'm not value, or where doyou need more value?
Where do you need more trust?
Where do you mean like, isthere anything I can do for you
as a leader?
Can I resource you better, likeinvite them into those things
and give them the opportunity asemployee to kind of say, oh,
they're asking me, let me and Ithink that's one thing.
I always try to have a questionin my one-on-one.
That was a feedback for opendialogue what am I not seeing?
(19:50):
A great question is what are myblind spots as a leader?
Can you help me with my blindspots and give them the
opportunity to speak into that?
Do you think that's a great?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
place to wrap, Nailed it.
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy,oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy,
oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy,oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy,
oh boy, oh boy.
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