February 13, 2024 • 12 mins
Leaders, don't make the mistake of creating this kind of culture. Today we poke the bear and get Drew talking about unhealthy "family culture" we see so often in organizations.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:18):
Drew, how high on your list of values is your
personal family.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yeah, number.
I mean number one.
But yeah, number one.
Yeah, I mean, I think myrelationship with, with God is
not number one, because I don'tput that on a list.
Sure, right, that's central,it's like the wheel.
And then there's spokes of thewheel.
So a lot of people are like God, family, career, whatever.
(00:45):
To me it doesn't work that way.
Right To me, it was like God,my spirituality is going to be
the center of all things.
So, but if I'm making a list,providing for my family, showing
up for my family, loving myfamily, that is number one
priority.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, I think today I want to talk a little bit about
, there's a trend inorganizations to be like hey,
we're, we're a family here atthis organization and if you
work here, you're a part of thefamily.
And so I think I've experienceda couple of things, and I've
seen things in coaching, where Ijust want to caution leaders
away from that.
So I want to start with a story.
I do some I call it careercoaching for people who are not
senior leaders in theorganization, but they're in the
(01:21):
middle somewhere and they arelooking for advice to how do I
talk to my leader about growthand how do I get a raise and how
to have more influence andimpact and all that stuff.
And so I was talking to a guythat I'm working with and he was
like man, I'm, my leader isjust demanding more output.
Hey, we've got a new revenuegoal for our company.
We're going to go up by, youknow, 30% this year, yeah.
And the guy I'm coaching islike but there's no new staff,
(01:43):
right, there's no new resourcesand I don't get a share of the
pie.
Yeah, when it's all said anddone, it's just, it's just this
guy's going to get more money,right, right.
And I was like hey, you have tounderstand, um, you're in a
business that is all abouttransactions, yeah, and if you
understand that this is atransactional world, it's okay.
And I think, as leaders, youknow when we're building
(02:04):
companies or coaching people whoare building companies.
I think Gen Z and millennialshave looked for purpose and for
meaning in their work and myadvice is let's be real clear
about what we're doing and inthat clarity, we'll be really
kind that, hey, when you comehere, like the meaning you're
going to have is probablyoutside this building, yeah, if
you help us with ourtransactions and our bottom line
(02:27):
, it's going to help you build alife outside these four walls
that's going to have meaning andpurpose.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I mean, you're poking the bear here for a little bit
Like this is hot.
I think you knew what you'redoing, because this is like this
could be controversial for some, which I'm fine with, um, but
yeah, I mean, I think, at theend of the day, if you are part
of an organization that has abank account, that has goals,
you're a transactionalorganization, right?
Most, I won't say all, but mostorganizations that use the word
(02:57):
family, use the word relational, those things it's, in my
opinion, it's a, it's a guysthat will lead to manipulation,
even though we're calling thoseare words that are used to make
employees work nights, weekends,overtime time, tap into the
emotional side of what you do,right?
(03:19):
So this is what I'm not saying.
You can have a transactionalorganization and care deeply for
people like value people likelove people well.
But if your idea of lovingpeople well is requires them to
be at work more, right, like andthis is where I get on my
(03:39):
soapbox Like I don't want towork for an organization that
sets up an environment toencourage me to be at that place
more.
Like I don't want to play pingpong at work.
Where do you want to play pingpong?
I've got a ping pong table inmy bonus room.
I want to play ping pong athome with my son.
That's good.
So don't set up an environmentfor me to say, hey, this is a
culture where we're family, stayhere longer, you can play here,
(04:01):
you can hang out here.
What I want is I want clearexpectations.
Okay, you're paying me X amountof dollars to do this job and I
agree to it because I'm anadult.
I'll say, yes, I'll do that jobfor this amount of money.
It's transactional right Now.
Where we can be kind is inclarity, Like we can be kind to
(04:21):
say hey, you know, if you dothis job and these are your
expectations, guess what you getto keep your job?
Yeah, isn't that great.
And if you want to haveunlimited earning potential,
then you got to go.
And this is the leader site.
You got to go and do what I did, which is you got to go, take a
(04:41):
risk.
You got to go build somethingRight.
So I was working for a leaderone time that said yeah.
They said November and Decemberwas the best, similar to your
story November and December isthe best months we've ever had
an organization.
And I remember thinking tomyself no, wasn't not for me.
I got paid the same in Novemberand December than we did in
August, which that that's fine.
That was what I signed up for,right Kudos to my leader for
(05:04):
starting something that wasmaking money, and I'm helping
him make money, yep.
So now I get a choice.
Do I want to stay here and helphim make more money, because
he's doing a lot better forhimself and I'm doing the same,
which is still a value.
Some people value consistencyand stability, and I can budget
off this and I get a paycheckevery two weeks or whatever it
is.
Or are you wired like me thatsays well, no, I want to go work
(05:27):
hard at something and I want tobe rewarded as we go.
So, again, I'll step down offmy soapbox, but I think it's.
It's highly dangerous, and Iknow where this podcast is
mostly targeting leaders andentrepreneurs, and so I'll speak
to them directly.
Be careful using the wordsrelational, calling family and
(05:48):
those things, because I bet ifyou would do a deep dive and
audit what you mean by that andwhat you're going for that and
and let's give the benefit ofthe doubt Maybe it's just like,
hey, we want you to feel lovedand valued here.
Yeah, okay, if that's the case,set clear goals, clear
expectations, even incentivizelike in our business.
Now, like the way I have mybusiness, the pay structure set
(06:10):
up, yeah, as we bring people oninto our marketing business, is
that when we win, they win.
It's good, unlimited earningpotential.
That's something that I alwayswanted.
So it's like, yeah, you mighthave to take a risk.
You might not have thestability of something every you
know, but as you win, you knowyou might have the stability of
something every you know, but asyou win, you help the
organization win.
So when I win and I'm taking myfamily on a vacation or I'm
doing whatever I'm doing, youare also doing that because
(06:33):
we're in it together, right, andthere's a lot of transparency
there.
Now, I know not every businessis set up to be able to do that,
but the clearer we can be, thatis how you treat people with
dignity and respect and kindness, and I'm fine to celebrate a
leader's successes Like there'snothing wrong with saying, hey,
it's probably poor judgment torub that in your employee's
(06:54):
faces, but at the same time,it's like that's what I signed
up for.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So, anyways, I'll step up.
Well, no, there was this viralclip that was going around the
last couple of weeks and I wishI knew the professor's name.
I don't know who it is, butit's a guy, I think, like an
economics professor, talking tohis class, and I think someone
held up their phone and recordedthis little thing.
He's like, hey, this is thetime of the class that I always
talk about this and I'm going toget more enjoyment at telling
you this than you're going toget hearing this.
But if you get paid $20 an hourto go work at a job, the person
(07:20):
who owns that business isexpecting more than $20 an hour
of value out of you.
If they're going to pay you $20and you only provide $20 worth
of value, they break even.
They're not going to do itright.
So if you go home feeling likeman, I'm not getting paid what
I'm worth here, the answer iswhile you're working for
somebody else.
Yes, that is probably howyou're always going to feel In
the system that we have for oureconomy and the West.
(07:44):
It's kind of based on thatcapitalistic feature that I'm
going to bring you in.
I'm going to pay you X and I'mgoing to expect more value than
that.
Now, where people getdisillusioned is when they think
I'm in purpose work ornonprofit work or whatever it is
, and in some of thoseorganizations yeah, that can be
the case where you're notproviding mathematically or
(08:05):
financially disproportionatevalue to what you're being paid.
Like you said, when there'sthese financial motivations and
incentives, if it's atransactional business, you do
have to provide more value thanyou're getting paid.
That's the way it works,unfortunately, and the only
place I've really seen like therelational culture as a win, or
family values as a win is whensomebody says, hey, we care
(08:26):
about family here, your family,and it's important to us that
you leave at five o'clockbecause we know if you go home
invest in your family and yourmarriage and your kids, you're
going to be better here, and sothe family we care about is your
family, not our work family.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Well, think about it.
I mean so when you say it likethat.
I mean think about if you werethe family of an employee and
you were overheard a boss saying, hey, we're family here.
Like if, as a spouse or as achild or whatever, I'd be like,
well, wait what?
Like I thought you're cheatingand robbing the actual family
from what was meant to be.
(09:01):
And that's not to say that yourteammates like some of the most
cherished times of my life wasbeing on a basketball team and
being but you know what?
That was transactional too.
It was like if you don't playgood, you get benched.
If you play good, you get toplay, but you're still a part of
a team.
Or if you're not good enough,you get cut.
I mean, that's like that wasn'tunkind.
That was what we signed up for.
(09:21):
We're here to win.
We have got some goals, likewhatever, and so I think it's
really important.
And I think just a word ofcaution to these leaders is,
sometimes we see things so blackand white, like well, we need
to be relational and be kind allthe same.
Or you got the leaders thatjust seem like they don't care
about their employees and allthe stuff.
I think there's a way to doboth and do it in a way where
(09:46):
everyone wins.
Like for me, as we're bringingon some salespeople into our
business, I think it's importantto be.
I honestly don't care.
Like, say we.
I'm just giving somehypotheticals.
We'll say the salesperson isresponsible for bringing in 10
clients a month.
Let's just use that number.
If I have a salesperson who issmart enough to find 10 clients
(10:09):
for that month and they do it inone day, I legitimately don't
care if they take the month offthe rest of month off.
I don't care because they areholding up the agreement that we
set on.
Now I might reevaluate and say,hey, I'm going to, I'm going to
change, like I've set the bartoo low or whatever else.
Or I might say, man, you'rekilling it for me.
You're bringing in all theseclients, you're making good
(10:30):
money.
I don't care if you're bringingin clients and you're living in
Paris, I don't care if you'reon the beach on your laptop,
because the way I can care forthat person is saying, hey, as
long as you're hitting this, andI'm happy with this, and I
actually want to be a goodleader and care for you, because
I at that point I could beabusive and raise the number and
make them work tons and just be.
Or this is where kindness comesin.
(10:51):
It's like no, that's what weagreed to, that's great.
So I can be kind to you andjust continue to do it and now
go play golf the rest of themonth, whatever.
That's literally my mindset,because that's how I want to be
treated.
I want to be treated withdignity, respect.
I want to feel like an owner inwhat I'm doing.
I want to feel like when I win,you win, we all win, you know.
So there's ways to set thebusiness up that way and I know
I'm being redundant at thispoint, but I just I'm very
(11:12):
passionate because this is whereburnout abuses and I, man,
listen, I've been this leader,I've been the leader that's been
.
We're like a family and let'syou know, and if I think, if I
would really do it an audit, alot of that was to get people's
buy-in into what we're doing,like I need you to buy into
what's happening here and I needyou to like really be.
(11:34):
Are you all in with this?
Are you really going?
And I'm like man, there's somuch I would go back and do
different, but at the end of theday, I think I would have
really locked in on the clarityas to what I expect.
And, depending on where you'reat in the organization, you may
not have the freedom, like yougot, to follow the cultural
norms of the organization, right?
So if you're middle managementor even executive leadership and
(11:55):
you're not able to change thecultural norms of organization,
you may have to play by therules of that organization.
I get that, um, but there'sdefinitely a way to be both
transactional and relational anddoing a way that actually cares
for the wholeness of the personyou're leading.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That's so good.
If this is us poking the bear,then we should poke the bear
more often.
Appreciate that insight, drew.
This was really helpful.
Thanks a ton.
Drew, how high on your list of values is your
personal family.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yeah, number.
I mean number one.
But yeah, number one.
Yeah, I mean, I think myrelationship with, with God is
not number one, because I don'tput that on a list.
Sure, right, that's central,it's like the wheel.
And then there's spokes of thewheel.
So a lot of people are like God, family, career, whatever.
(00:45):
To me it doesn't work that way.
Right To me, it was like God,my spirituality is going to be
the center of all things.
So, but if I'm making a list,providing for my family, showing
up for my family, loving myfamily, that is number one
priority.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, I think today I want to talk a little bit about
, there's a trend inorganizations to be like hey,
we're, we're a family here atthis organization and if you
work here, you're a part of thefamily.
And so I think I've experienceda couple of things, and I've
seen things in coaching, where Ijust want to caution leaders
away from that.
So I want to start with a story.
I do some I call it careercoaching for people who are not
senior leaders in theorganization, but they're in the
(01:21):
middle somewhere and they arelooking for advice to how do I
talk to my leader about growthand how do I get a raise and how
to have more influence andimpact and all that stuff.
And so I was talking to a guythat I'm working with and he was
like man, I'm, my leader isjust demanding more output.
Hey, we've got a new revenuegoal for our company.
We're going to go up by, youknow, 30% this year, yeah.
And the guy I'm coaching islike but there's no new staff,
(01:43):
right, there's no new resourcesand I don't get a share of the
pie.
Yeah, when it's all said anddone, it's just, it's just this
guy's going to get more money,right, right.
And I was like hey, you have tounderstand, um, you're in a
business that is all abouttransactions, yeah, and if you
understand that this is atransactional world, it's okay.
And I think, as leaders, youknow when we're building
(02:04):
companies or coaching people whoare building companies.
I think Gen Z and millennialshave looked for purpose and for
meaning in their work and myadvice is let's be real clear
about what we're doing and inthat clarity, we'll be really
kind that, hey, when you comehere, like the meaning you're
going to have is probablyoutside this building, yeah, if
you help us with ourtransactions and our bottom line
(02:27):
, it's going to help you build alife outside these four walls
that's going to have meaning andpurpose.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I mean, you're poking the bear here for a little bit
Like this is hot.
I think you knew what you'redoing, because this is like this
could be controversial for some, which I'm fine with, um, but
yeah, I mean, I think, at theend of the day, if you are part
of an organization that has abank account, that has goals,
you're a transactionalorganization, right?
Most, I won't say all, but mostorganizations that use the word
(02:57):
family, use the word relational, those things it's, in my
opinion, it's a, it's a guysthat will lead to manipulation,
even though we're calling thoseare words that are used to make
employees work nights, weekends,overtime time, tap into the
emotional side of what you do,right?
(03:19):
So this is what I'm not saying.
You can have a transactionalorganization and care deeply for
people like value people likelove people well.
But if your idea of lovingpeople well is requires them to
be at work more, right, like andthis is where I get on my
(03:39):
soapbox Like I don't want towork for an organization that
sets up an environment toencourage me to be at that place
more.
Like I don't want to play pingpong at work.
Where do you want to play pingpong?
I've got a ping pong table inmy bonus room.
I want to play ping pong athome with my son.
That's good.
So don't set up an environmentfor me to say, hey, this is a
culture where we're family, stayhere longer, you can play here,
(04:01):
you can hang out here.
What I want is I want clearexpectations.
Okay, you're paying me X amountof dollars to do this job and I
agree to it because I'm anadult.
I'll say, yes, I'll do that jobfor this amount of money.
It's transactional right Now.
Where we can be kind is inclarity, Like we can be kind to
(04:21):
say hey, you know, if you dothis job and these are your
expectations, guess what you getto keep your job?
Yeah, isn't that great.
And if you want to haveunlimited earning potential,
then you got to go.
And this is the leader site.
You got to go and do what I did, which is you got to go, take a
(04:41):
risk.
You got to go build somethingRight.
So I was working for a leaderone time that said yeah.
They said November and Decemberwas the best, similar to your
story November and December isthe best months we've ever had
an organization.
And I remember thinking tomyself no, wasn't not for me.
I got paid the same in Novemberand December than we did in
August, which that that's fine.
That was what I signed up for,right Kudos to my leader for
(05:04):
starting something that wasmaking money, and I'm helping
him make money, yep.
So now I get a choice.
Do I want to stay here and helphim make more money, because
he's doing a lot better forhimself and I'm doing the same,
which is still a value.
Some people value consistencyand stability, and I can budget
off this and I get a paycheckevery two weeks or whatever it
is.
Or are you wired like me thatsays well, no, I want to go work
(05:27):
hard at something and I want tobe rewarded as we go.
So, again, I'll step down offmy soapbox, but I think it's.
It's highly dangerous, and Iknow where this podcast is
mostly targeting leaders andentrepreneurs, and so I'll speak
to them directly.
Be careful using the wordsrelational, calling family and
(05:48):
those things, because I bet ifyou would do a deep dive and
audit what you mean by that andwhat you're going for that and
and let's give the benefit ofthe doubt Maybe it's just like,
hey, we want you to feel lovedand valued here.
Yeah, okay, if that's the case,set clear goals, clear
expectations, even incentivizelike in our business.
Now, like the way I have mybusiness, the pay structure set
(06:10):
up, yeah, as we bring people oninto our marketing business, is
that when we win, they win.
It's good, unlimited earningpotential.
That's something that I alwayswanted.
So it's like, yeah, you mighthave to take a risk.
You might not have thestability of something every you
know, but as you win, you knowyou might have the stability of
something every you know, but asyou win, you help the
organization win.
So when I win and I'm taking myfamily on a vacation or I'm
doing whatever I'm doing, youare also doing that because
(06:33):
we're in it together, right, andthere's a lot of transparency
there.
Now, I know not every businessis set up to be able to do that,
but the clearer we can be, thatis how you treat people with
dignity and respect and kindness, and I'm fine to celebrate a
leader's successes Like there'snothing wrong with saying, hey,
it's probably poor judgment torub that in your employee's
(06:54):
faces, but at the same time,it's like that's what I signed
up for.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So, anyways, I'll step up.
Well, no, there was this viralclip that was going around the
last couple of weeks and I wishI knew the professor's name.
I don't know who it is, butit's a guy, I think, like an
economics professor, talking tohis class, and I think someone
held up their phone and recordedthis little thing.
He's like, hey, this is thetime of the class that I always
talk about this and I'm going toget more enjoyment at telling
you this than you're going toget hearing this.
But if you get paid $20 an hourto go work at a job, the person
(07:20):
who owns that business isexpecting more than $20 an hour
of value out of you.
If they're going to pay you $20and you only provide $20 worth
of value, they break even.
They're not going to do itright.
So if you go home feeling likeman, I'm not getting paid what
I'm worth here, the answer iswhile you're working for
somebody else.
Yes, that is probably howyou're always going to feel In
the system that we have for oureconomy and the West.
(07:44):
It's kind of based on thatcapitalistic feature that I'm
going to bring you in.
I'm going to pay you X and I'mgoing to expect more value than
that.
Now, where people getdisillusioned is when they think
I'm in purpose work ornonprofit work or whatever it is
, and in some of thoseorganizations yeah, that can be
the case where you're notproviding mathematically or
(08:05):
financially disproportionatevalue to what you're being paid.
Like you said, when there'sthese financial motivations and
incentives, if it's atransactional business, you do
have to provide more value thanyou're getting paid.
That's the way it works,unfortunately, and the only
place I've really seen like therelational culture as a win, or
family values as a win is whensomebody says, hey, we care
(08:26):
about family here, your family,and it's important to us that
you leave at five o'clockbecause we know if you go home
invest in your family and yourmarriage and your kids, you're
going to be better here, and sothe family we care about is your
family, not our work family.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Well, think about it.
I mean so when you say it likethat.
I mean think about if you werethe family of an employee and
you were overheard a boss saying, hey, we're family here.
Like if, as a spouse or as achild or whatever, I'd be like,
well, wait what?
Like I thought you're cheatingand robbing the actual family
from what was meant to be.
(09:01):
And that's not to say that yourteammates like some of the most
cherished times of my life wasbeing on a basketball team and
being but you know what?
That was transactional too.
It was like if you don't playgood, you get benched.
If you play good, you get toplay, but you're still a part of
a team.
Or if you're not good enough,you get cut.
I mean, that's like that wasn'tunkind.
That was what we signed up for.
(09:21):
We're here to win.
We have got some goals, likewhatever, and so I think it's
really important.
And I think just a word ofcaution to these leaders is,
sometimes we see things so blackand white, like well, we need
to be relational and be kind allthe same.
Or you got the leaders thatjust seem like they don't care
about their employees and allthe stuff.
I think there's a way to doboth and do it in a way where
(09:46):
everyone wins.
Like for me, as we're bringingon some salespeople into our
business, I think it's importantto be.
I honestly don't care.
Like, say we.
I'm just giving somehypotheticals.
We'll say the salesperson isresponsible for bringing in 10
clients a month.
Let's just use that number.
If I have a salesperson who issmart enough to find 10 clients
(10:09):
for that month and they do it inone day, I legitimately don't
care if they take the month offthe rest of month off.
I don't care because they areholding up the agreement that we
set on.
Now I might reevaluate and say,hey, I'm going to, I'm going to
change, like I've set the bartoo low or whatever else.
Or I might say, man, you'rekilling it for me.
You're bringing in all theseclients, you're making good
(10:30):
money.
I don't care if you're bringingin clients and you're living in
Paris, I don't care if you'reon the beach on your laptop,
because the way I can care forthat person is saying, hey, as
long as you're hitting this, andI'm happy with this, and I
actually want to be a goodleader and care for you, because
I at that point I could beabusive and raise the number and
make them work tons and just be.
Or this is where kindness comesin.
(10:51):
It's like no, that's what weagreed to, that's great.
So I can be kind to you andjust continue to do it and now
go play golf the rest of themonth, whatever.
That's literally my mindset,because that's how I want to be
treated.
I want to be treated withdignity, respect.
I want to feel like an owner inwhat I'm doing.
I want to feel like when I win,you win, we all win, you know.
So there's ways to set thebusiness up that way and I know
I'm being redundant at thispoint, but I just I'm very
(11:12):
passionate because this is whereburnout abuses and I, man,
listen, I've been this leader,I've been the leader that's been
.
We're like a family and let'syou know, and if I think, if I
would really do it an audit, alot of that was to get people's
buy-in into what we're doing,like I need you to buy into
what's happening here and I needyou to like really be.
(11:34):
Are you all in with this?
Are you really going?
And I'm like man, there's somuch I would go back and do
different, but at the end of theday, I think I would have
really locked in on the clarityas to what I expect.
And, depending on where you'reat in the organization, you may
not have the freedom, like yougot, to follow the cultural
norms of the organization, right?
So if you're middle managementor even executive leadership and
(11:55):
you're not able to change thecultural norms of organization,
you may have to play by therules of that organization.
I get that, um, but there'sdefinitely a way to be both
transactional and relational anddoing a way that actually cares
for the wholeness of the personyou're leading.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That's so good.
If this is us poking the bear,then we should poke the bear
more often.
Appreciate that insight, drew.
This was really helpful.
Thanks a ton.
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