April 16, 2024 • 20 mins
Have you ever been captivated by the glint of a 'shiny penny'?
We've all worked for those leaders and some of us have even been those leaders—chasing the thrill of every possible new idea.
On today's episode, we peel back the curtain on the Shiny Penny Syndrome (S.P.S.), and talk about how to understand it, manage it, and how help our teams with it.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:16):
Matt, sometimes these episodes are like personal
therapy sessions for me that arelive recorded.
We're not charging enough.
I should be charging youbecause what I want to talk
about today is something that isimportant to me.
It's something that I'vewrestled with and maybe, maybe,
struggled with, but I want toget into it with you.
You brought up this idea of theshiny penny syndrome.
(00:37):
Yeah, here's how I interpretedit.
Okay, it's for leaders likemyself, who get real excited
about the next new idea, thenext new thing, so I can get
drawn in.
It's why I need a partner likeyou in my life, someone who can
come in the business and saygreat idea, not yet Great idea
(00:59):
or not great idea, this is offcourse, but I love the next,
next, the new.
What's fun, what drains me, ismaintaining, sustaining, yeah,
consistency.
I love spontaneity, all thosethings.
Now, I don't want to feel shamein this, like that's a
superpower on one hand, but itcan also be, you know,
(01:21):
detrimental.
It could be, or at leastsomething that's very
frustrating, at the least forthe rest of the team, the rest
of the team who are just showingup and faithful, yeah, and
consistent.
So before I dive in, I got somequestions I want to ask you
before I dive in, just commenton this idea of the shiny penny.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
yeah, you know, I think there is something innate
in founders where they, um, whatcaused them to start a business
or a company was man.
There's this problem I'm havingand I think I can go solve it
with by this thing.
So, like you said, it is asuperpower for a lot of people
to recognize what's new andwhat's next, and it can be
people that bring them energy.
They're excited to bring themon the team.
(01:59):
It can be a product or service,whatever it is, and, like you
said, if you are building a teamwho has been faithful and
consistent with you, it cansometimes be frustrating that
their leader gets distracted sooften.
So, actually, when I thoughtabout this topic like I don't
want to make this a moraljudgment, good or bad, I think
it's both I'd love for shinypenny syndrome leaders to
(02:21):
recognize hey, it's got someupside, but I do pay a cost.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Did you coin that phrase, by the way, or did you
steal it from?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I've never heard it before.
I don't know.
I think I made it up.
If not, we'll give credit wherecredit might not be due.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
We have it recorded here now that yeah, yeah,
trademarked.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Copyright.
Well, and I guess my firstquestion to you would be this A
big part of what we're trying todo with leaders.
We talk about self-awareness alot, so help me understand.
If there's a leader listeningto this, that's curious.
Like man, have I fallen prey tothis shiny penny syndrome
before Unpack what that mightlook like in a leader?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Okay, Well, let me ask you a question first, okay,
Answer my question with aquestion.
That's right, just like JesusDid you just compare yourself to
Jesus.
Wow, I'm a disciple You're veryChrist-like Following in his
footsteps, so you made me losetrack of that.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Thanks a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I've worked for founders, several who I would
say fall into this category ofshiny penny syndrome.
And again, it's not a moraljudgment, not a good or bad, do
you know, because I think youprobably would categorize
yourself as the shiny pennysyndrome guy Absolutely.
Do you know when that'shappening to you, like, do you
know?
Like, oh, I'm off course, I'mgetting distracted, I'm
(03:39):
following what's new and what'sexciting.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I do now, okay, but that's probably relatively new
Gotcha For me.
Um, I mean, this happens a lotin my marriage, okay, probably
where it shows up the most Right, but in all areas of my life I
just I'm an I'm an energy person.
I'm drawn to certain energiesI'm drawn to'm an energy person.
(04:04):
I'm drawn to certain energiesI'm drawn to.
I can actually remember I madea really bad hire one time and I
made it with your wife, ashley.
We were interviewing somebody.
I think Ashley, in her best way,tried to warn me against this,
but I was just, I was just drawnto an energy of a person and it
(04:25):
turned out to be a terrible fitand we were talking about
random things and I think Ashleywas in the conversation and we
laughed about it, looked back atit and she was like I lost you,
you were gone, there was notalking you out of this person
and it had nothing to do aboutthe job.
I just love this idea of theenergy of the person.
It had nothing to do about thejob.
I just love this idea of thelike, the energy of the person.
(04:46):
Now I I feel it and a lot oftimes what I need is the space
to just kind of dream it.
And and I have a daughter,that's this way too okay that
when she's like man, I thinkinstead of going to college I'm
gonna travel the world andwhatever I don't say, I don't
start going practical on her yet.
I was like man, that's, that'sa fun idea, that's great.
And just kind of dream with hera little bit, travel the world
and whatever I don't say, Idon't start going practical on
her yet.
(05:06):
I was like man, that's, that'sa fun idea, that's great.
And just kind of dream with hera little bit.
For me, if I'm given a littlebit of space to dream and to
process, I'll normally come backaround to now.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
That's that's not a great idea.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
You need to work the idea out from like start to
beginning I'm just an externalverbal processor and what I
realize in leadership is thatnot everybody wants to take that
adventure with me.
Yeah, there's a lot of fear forpeople like you have to know
who you can dream with, who youcan process with, who you can
you know, because a lot offeelings come up when you have
the shiny penny thing, like,okay, is he on to the next
(05:43):
person and does he not see whatI'm doing and contributing?
Yeah, um, what about the, theold goals and the old visions
that we have that I'm workingevery day to accomplish?
Is that out the window now?
Are we now right doing this newthing?
And there's all my work wastedbecause we're going this
direction?
Most of the time, for me, theanswers to all those things are
no.
Yeah, I just needed something,I'm just riffing, I'm just
(06:07):
excited.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, I think so.
I would say I'm probably moreof, like you know, steady Eddie
type of person.
There are definitely thingsthat distract me and are my
shiny pennies.
For me Usually it's ideas andphilosophies and stuff I'm like,
ooh, that's kind of cool, Ilike the way that sounds, but
take that aside.
Um, I think peopleunderestimate how much energy it
takes to launch a business.
If you think about rocket fuelto launch a rocket off the earth
(06:32):
, the gravitational pull of theearth to bring something down,
it takes so much energy tolaunch that rocket.
That's the same way with abusiness.
And so once you get a businesslaunch and it takes so much
energy for the founder to keepit going, so of course they're
going to be drawn to things thatbring energy back into them,
because their whole life, theirwhole life is pushing energy
(06:53):
back out into the world.
And so when there's an idea ora person or a potential new hire
that gives them energy and putsome wind in their sails like I
want that person on my teamright now, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Well, I'm going to make a statement that I don't.
It might be a hot take and itmay not be true, for it's not
true for everybody, but when youhear a leader that is super
excited about a new direction,new thing, whatever, what you
should kind of read behind thewall of that it's probably some
level of fear, anxiety, thatwhat we're currently doing is
(07:26):
not going to work, or I'm I'mtired of it or I I don't know
what to do with this.
It's almost hedging againstthose ideas with a new one.
Yeah, absolutely.
And what triggered that ideafor me is and when I took the
journey in entrepreneurship, thehardest thing for me to do and
still one of the hardest thingsfor me to do is to focus on,
(07:46):
because what I'll do is I'llstart multiple.
I looked up at one time and Ithink I had five or six
businesses going of just beinglike, hey, let me focus on one.
Yeah, make that reallysuccessful and then, once that's
up and going, either turn itoff or or not.
Turn off, turn it over or sellit or hand it off.
(08:07):
That's what I was gonna say.
Hand it off, and now let mefocus on this, because I will be
a serial entrepreneur for sure,like I won't do one thing for
the rest of my life.
I have to do somethingdifferent or have other things
going.
I just can't do them all atonce.
Yeah, right, and so if I wascoming in and consulting, you
know, my business on any givenday, what I would tell myself is
drew focus, yeah, but thereason why I'm not focusing is
(08:30):
I'm I'm scared to death likewhat if this is?
What if this other idea isactually the idea?
What if this other idea isactually the thing that's going
to make me more money or isgoing to whatever in what I'm
doing now?
Because all my ideas in my headare great and all of them are
going to work, you know.
And so I think, if you can havea little bit of empathy for the
leader that is doing that andsee behind the veil a little bit
(08:53):
, that is them.
You know, I had a therapistonce told me that the future is
the safest place for me, becauseit's full of hope, it's full of
opportunity.
The present is scary, the pastdoesn't even exist.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So I don't want to worry about that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
But the present is scary, but the future is full of
hope.
But at the same time and I'dlove for you to speak about,
this is we can give our leadersempathy.
But if we're talking to ourleaders who are doing this,
let's talk a little bit aboutthe impact that that can have on
the people around us.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, for sure.
You know, I think I like thatword empathy because I want to
have that, especially forfounders and senior leaders in
organizations, because very fewpeople understand how much
pressure they carry, how manythings are navigating.
You know, it's like how we gotto make payroll in a couple of
(09:44):
weeks.
Cash flow is tight.
We haven't closed this otherdeal, the contract's in, but we
haven't got our first check.
There's just so much pressure,right.
And so, of course, if somethinggives you wind in your sails
and gives you energy, yeah,absolutely, I totally get you
wanting to be attracted to thething that is going to fill your
tank back up.
I think one of my criticismspotentially of the shiny penny
syndrome is a lot of timespeople look for the answer to be
(10:05):
out there somewhere.
Oh, if I could just hire thisone person, or if I get this
role, or man, if we had this oneidea or this one product.
It's like there's a silverbullet out there and it's going
to solve my problems.
There's a silver bullet outthere and it's going to solve my
problems and it's like man andyou said it focused effort like
cheetah, like gazelle, intensityI'm going to chase this down.
(10:26):
That kind of thing leads tosuccess.
I'm going to go get this withall my focus.
But what we think is oh, I sawthis person and they had this
one solution and that worked inthat business.
What if I hired them on my team?
Maybe they'll solve that for metoo.
Or they had this one solutionand that worked in that business
.
What if I hired them on my team?
Maybe they'll solve that for metoo.
Or I saw this one strategy onInstagram.
Maybe that'll help me too.
So it's we want to outsource toan expert, somebody else, make
this problem go away for me.
(10:46):
And so the new and shiny thinga lot of times promises to solve
that.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Tell me what you think about this.
I just heard this recently isthat there is a myth around
multiple streams of income.
When it comes to, like the, thewealthiest people have multiple
streams of income.
The myth is that that's how yougain wealth.
When this person that wastalking and I forget who it was,
it was Rory I saw it too.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Was it Rory?
It was Rory.
Dang it Rory.
Yes, he's always right Always.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Um, yeah, go Rory, yes, he's always right Always.
Yeah, go look up Rory.
Great company with brandbuilders, and he was saying that
all he referenced WarrenBuffett, elon Musk that they all
started with one company andthey focused and they built that
company until it was successful.
(11:34):
And then Multiple streams later.
Right, so we only see themultiple streams and think, well
, that's the way I'm going to besuccessful, I'm gonna have all
these things, when actually thepath to that was, you know,
success in one area, focus onone area.
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (11:47):
do you feel like that's true?
Well, I mean, of course,there's always going to be
exceptions, and so I think it'sprobably more true than it's not
right.
But I think people who arewired like you like I want to be
a serial entrepreneur,entrepreneur, I want to start
things about ideas.
I'm excited about them.
I don't want to put a muzzle onpeople like that because you
can kill creativity, killexcitement, and so it's it's
(12:07):
little, it's it's more like howdo we coach someone who's wired
like you to be focused for aseason?
And so when it comes to newbusiness ideas, it's it's rarely
like no, it's like hey, hey,not right now, yeah, and that's
kind of more the direction Iwould say well I.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I've had a, a friend and it's a mutual friend of ours
um coach, anagram coach, andshe told me she's like listen,
with your personality, it's goodfor you to have two or three.
Yeah, like, you need a passinglane.
You need to every once in awhile.
Now you still have todiscipline yourself with your
schedule.
So, like for me and my weeklyschedule, I've got it relatively
(12:41):
locked in now.
Like I, the things I have to doto provide for my family, like
serving my current clients well,running my business well, that
gets the first part of my week.
It's great.
I don't do anything else untilall that stuff is done well.
I feel like I've served myclients well.
And then the back half of theweek is when I can start working
on, you know, some other things.
(13:02):
It's good.
So for me, it's good to say,okay, I can have two, two and a
half, right.
So right now I have about that.
I've got about two and a half.
It feels very manageable for meat the moment.
There was a season where I waslike this is not, I cannot do
all this and all of it was, wasfailing.
And so, to your point,depending on your personality, I
think it's okay to have a fewthings, but, you know, not at
(13:25):
the detriment.
And the one thing I was goingto say, too, is that you have to
, as a leader, you have to becareful who you dream with.
Yeah, that's good, you justhave to.
And I think you and I both haveworked for leaders where we
would land something and thenthe very next meeting, it wasn't
, and there's only so many timesI can do that before I'm like,
hey, I'm out, like you got topick it or stick it at some
level.
You have to land it.
(13:45):
We've got to make some progress, because I'm not as a leader,
we're just not going to spin ourwheels for that long.
But you do have to have a safeplace where you can process
these ideas, where you can talkabout them.
And you got to know the peopleon your team.
I think I had one or two peopleon my team that I could dream
with, and they would get excitedand not overwhelmed.
(14:06):
Yeah, the rest of them werelike it's, it's too much, like
we can't, we don't, or theywould read into it right way
further into it.
And, honestly, my wife is thatway too.
She's not not one that loves,she takes the dream literally
right oh she gets, she's scaredbecause she, oh, we're going up
and move, we're going to.
What does this mean for, likeshe starts, I'm like I'm just
having fun, right, I'm justdreaming a little bit Now, you
(14:42):
know.
And so whether that's somethingthat we can help provide
through fraction x, whetherthat's, you know, you don't
necessarily have to hire it, youcan go and have you know, get
into a, uh, a think tank, orwhat is it?
Speaker 1 (14:52):
called mastermind, yeah, something like that.
Well, I think you know a lot ofleaders who don't address the
self-awareness it takes to notbe overwhelmed by shiny penny
syndrome are doomed to leadsmall organizations.
And here's what I mean by that.
Yeah, if you think about like acruise ship, right, if they
have to change direction, um,suddenly, it still takes them a
(15:16):
long time to get that giant shipturning in a different
direction.
But if you're driving a Sea-Doojet ski, you want to take a
left-hand turn, you're doing 60,you just do it.
And so I had this idea that ifyou want to steer fast, drive a
small boat.
So if you're a pivoter, ifyou're an iterator, if you're
(15:37):
always constantly changingthings, well, you can lead an
organization that can beadaptable and adjust and change
and move with you.
But if you want to lead a large, influential company, you've
got to get that shiny pennysyndrome thing managed where
you're not trying to pivot.
Because what happens is if youturn a big boat fast, two things
happen One people get sick, ortwo they fall off the boat.
(16:00):
Like there's just no way youcan control that thing turning
fast when it's that big and notget people hurt.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
That's really wise man, like well as you're talking
, you know.
What I was thinking is that,and you started out.
It's not right or wrong.
Right Like see-do is freakingfun, a hundred percent I almost
died on one when I was in highschool.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
It was awesome, really yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
It's probably how you feel partnering a business with
me on the back of a Sea-Doohalf the time and a cruise ship
is fun.
There's more people on it,right, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
You can go further, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
There's so many different things but one's not
right or wrong and honestly,like I said, you can have as
much fun.
Meaning purpose money, I meanthe bigger the organization, the
more it costs.
I mean different things likethat.
So, as you're scaling yourcompany, I think those are
questions to ask yourself.
Like bigger doesn't mean betternecessarily for that
personality.
It doesn't even mean more money.
(16:54):
It could mean less money for along time to scale it.
So I think that's a greatanalogy for our leaders that are
listening to ask themselveslike it man.
It just goes back toself-awareness.
Like what kind of leader am I?
What kind of business do I wantto have?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
When I look down the road, am I seeing a bunch of
people around the table or am Ijust like having a blast jumping
waves on the seat and I thinkwe've both seen examples of
senior leaders blowing up theirorganization because they miss
what it was like when they firstgot started and they could
pivot and they could adjust andthey could make adaptations to
it as quick as they wanted to.
And sometimes they buildsomething that's bigger than
(17:30):
they meant for it to get andit's like oh crap, I lost all my
autonomy now.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Right, because a lot of times, these leaders have a
lot.
I mean, they're inspiring,they've got charisma.
You want to do what they'redoing and then they get it, and
they get all these people aroundthem and they don't have the
the tools, the capacity or eventhe desire to lead what they've
built right.
They're like man.
That's this.
This is awful.
I never wanted to, you know, soI think that's that's really
important.
Anything else, any last wordson this, this shiny penny thing,
(17:54):
because I, I love this.
This concept is really helpfulfor me.
I think you know, if you're ashiny penny thing, cause I, I
love this, this concept isreally helpful for me.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I think you know if you're a shiny penny leader, um,
give some grace to your steadyEddie's, you know.
I think they really help makethe world turn, you know.
So you talked about like youcouldn't dream with everybody on
your team because some peoplewould go to they take it too far
.
What does it mean if I have todo this?
And so you actually need thosepeople because they're going to
implement those crazy greatideas you have and they're going
(18:22):
to give you know feet to thatvision.
So it takes both, um, you needsome people that are going to
give you energy and bring thatkind of level of intensity and
excitement and dream with you,but don't neglect the people who
have helped you build it towhere it's successful now.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Can I just make a remark on that, because I think
there's.
I wanted to give you the lastword.
No, you do it.
Wrap it up.
Here's a bit of a confession.
In my unhealthier seasons, Iwould intentionally keep the
steady eddies away from my ideasbecause I did not want their
(18:56):
feedback, because I did not wantthem to tell me we couldn't do
it, what was wrong with it,whatever.
So I would keep really greatleaders at bay In my healthier
seasons and there's actually aspecific person I have in mind.
She was my least favoriteperson to work with when I
started because she was alwaysshooting down my ideas.
(19:17):
She became my favorite personto work with when we realized
that we're actually allies.
Wanting the same thing Likethis doesn't have to be about me
, drew, and my ideas and whatgets to win.
Whatever.
She's not against me, she'sactually trying to help me.
So she became the first person Iwould bring in and I would
invite her in and say help meunderstand the ways this might
(19:39):
go wrong.
What am I not bring in?
And I would invite her in andsay help me understand the ways
this might go wrong.
What am I not seeing?
And all that.
And then, instead of her havingto be a contrarian or be
combative.
She was actually able to useher gifts and contribute and be
like well, here's an or.
I would be like here's where Iwant to go.
Could you outline a process forme, because I'll steamroll a
bunch of people, sometimesunintentionally.
(20:00):
I'm just excited, so I get upand I tell the whole staff and
there's people that needed toknow first.
We've talked about that on thepodcast.
So all that to say.
I think if you're examiningyourself as a leader, if you're
in a healthy season, you canstill be a shiny penny leader.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
We need it, we got to have those.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That's where vision comes from, but when you're
healthy, you're surroundingyourself with people and you're
inviting feedback in and you'renot taking it personal or like,
hey, you're taking the wind outof my sails, like no, we're all
in this together.
We want to go to the same place.
Matt, sometimes these episodes are like personal
therapy sessions for me that arelive recorded.
We're not charging enough.
I should be charging youbecause what I want to talk
about today is something that isimportant to me.
It's something that I'vewrestled with and maybe, maybe,
struggled with, but I want toget into it with you.
You brought up this idea of theshiny penny syndrome.
(00:37):
Yeah, here's how I interpretedit.
Okay, it's for leaders likemyself, who get real excited
about the next new idea, thenext new thing, so I can get
drawn in.
It's why I need a partner likeyou in my life, someone who can
come in the business and saygreat idea, not yet Great idea
(00:59):
or not great idea, this is offcourse, but I love the next,
next, the new.
What's fun, what drains me, ismaintaining, sustaining, yeah,
consistency.
I love spontaneity, all thosethings.
Now, I don't want to feel shamein this, like that's a
superpower on one hand, but itcan also be, you know,
(01:21):
detrimental.
It could be, or at leastsomething that's very
frustrating, at the least forthe rest of the team, the rest
of the team who are just showingup and faithful, yeah, and
consistent.
So before I dive in, I got somequestions I want to ask you
before I dive in, just commenton this idea of the shiny penny.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
yeah, you know, I think there is something innate
in founders where they, um, whatcaused them to start a business
or a company was man.
There's this problem I'm havingand I think I can go solve it
with by this thing.
So, like you said, it is asuperpower for a lot of people
to recognize what's new andwhat's next, and it can be
people that bring them energy.
They're excited to bring themon the team.
(01:59):
It can be a product or service,whatever it is, and, like you
said, if you are building a teamwho has been faithful and
consistent with you, it cansometimes be frustrating that
their leader gets distracted sooften.
So, actually, when I thoughtabout this topic like I don't
want to make this a moraljudgment, good or bad, I think
it's both I'd love for shinypenny syndrome leaders to
(02:21):
recognize hey, it's got someupside, but I do pay a cost.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Did you coin that phrase, by the way, or did you
steal it from?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I've never heard it before.
I don't know.
I think I made it up.
If not, we'll give credit wherecredit might not be due.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
We have it recorded here now that yeah, yeah,
trademarked.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Copyright.
Well, and I guess my firstquestion to you would be this A
big part of what we're trying todo with leaders.
We talk about self-awareness alot, so help me understand.
If there's a leader listeningto this, that's curious.
Like man, have I fallen prey tothis shiny penny syndrome
before Unpack what that mightlook like in a leader?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Okay, Well, let me ask you a question first, okay,
Answer my question with aquestion.
That's right, just like JesusDid you just compare yourself to
Jesus.
Wow, I'm a disciple You're veryChrist-like Following in his
footsteps, so you made me losetrack of that.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Thanks a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I've worked for founders, several who I would
say fall into this category ofshiny penny syndrome.
And again, it's not a moraljudgment, not a good or bad, do
you know, because I think youprobably would categorize
yourself as the shiny pennysyndrome guy Absolutely.
Do you know when that'shappening to you, like, do you
know?
Like, oh, I'm off course, I'mgetting distracted, I'm
(03:39):
following what's new and what'sexciting.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I do now, okay, but that's probably relatively new
Gotcha For me.
Um, I mean, this happens a lotin my marriage, okay, probably
where it shows up the most Right, but in all areas of my life I
just I'm an I'm an energy person.
I'm drawn to certain energiesI'm drawn to'm an energy person.
(04:04):
I'm drawn to certain energiesI'm drawn to.
I can actually remember I madea really bad hire one time and I
made it with your wife, ashley.
We were interviewing somebody.
I think Ashley, in her best way,tried to warn me against this,
but I was just, I was just drawnto an energy of a person and it
(04:25):
turned out to be a terrible fitand we were talking about
random things and I think Ashleywas in the conversation and we
laughed about it, looked back atit and she was like I lost you,
you were gone, there was notalking you out of this person
and it had nothing to do aboutthe job.
I just love this idea of theenergy of the person.
It had nothing to do about thejob.
I just love this idea of thelike, the energy of the person.
(04:46):
Now I I feel it and a lot oftimes what I need is the space
to just kind of dream it.
And and I have a daughter,that's this way too okay that
when she's like man, I thinkinstead of going to college I'm
gonna travel the world andwhatever I don't say, I don't
start going practical on her yet.
I was like man, that's, that'sa fun idea, that's great.
And just kind of dream with hera little bit, travel the world
and whatever I don't say, Idon't start going practical on
her yet.
(05:06):
I was like man, that's, that'sa fun idea, that's great.
And just kind of dream with hera little bit.
For me, if I'm given a littlebit of space to dream and to
process, I'll normally come backaround to now.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
That's that's not a great idea.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
You need to work the idea out from like start to
beginning I'm just an externalverbal processor and what I
realize in leadership is thatnot everybody wants to take that
adventure with me.
Yeah, there's a lot of fear forpeople like you have to know
who you can dream with, who youcan process with, who you can
you know, because a lot offeelings come up when you have
the shiny penny thing, like,okay, is he on to the next
(05:43):
person and does he not see whatI'm doing and contributing?
Yeah, um, what about the, theold goals and the old visions
that we have that I'm workingevery day to accomplish?
Is that out the window now?
Are we now right doing this newthing?
And there's all my work wastedbecause we're going this
direction?
Most of the time, for me, theanswers to all those things are
no.
Yeah, I just needed something,I'm just riffing, I'm just
(06:07):
excited.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, I think so.
I would say I'm probably moreof, like you know, steady Eddie
type of person.
There are definitely thingsthat distract me and are my
shiny pennies.
For me Usually it's ideas andphilosophies and stuff I'm like,
ooh, that's kind of cool, Ilike the way that sounds, but
take that aside.
Um, I think peopleunderestimate how much energy it
takes to launch a business.
If you think about rocket fuelto launch a rocket off the earth
(06:32):
, the gravitational pull of theearth to bring something down,
it takes so much energy tolaunch that rocket.
That's the same way with abusiness.
And so once you get a businesslaunch and it takes so much
energy for the founder to keepit going, so of course they're
going to be drawn to things thatbring energy back into them,
because their whole life, theirwhole life is pushing energy
(06:53):
back out into the world.
And so when there's an idea ora person or a potential new hire
that gives them energy and putsome wind in their sails like I
want that person on my teamright now, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Well, I'm going to make a statement that I don't.
It might be a hot take and itmay not be true, for it's not
true for everybody, but when youhear a leader that is super
excited about a new direction,new thing, whatever, what you
should kind of read behind thewall of that it's probably some
level of fear, anxiety, thatwhat we're currently doing is
(07:26):
not going to work, or I'm I'mtired of it or I I don't know
what to do with this.
It's almost hedging againstthose ideas with a new one.
Yeah, absolutely.
And what triggered that ideafor me is and when I took the
journey in entrepreneurship, thehardest thing for me to do and
still one of the hardest thingsfor me to do is to focus on,
(07:46):
because what I'll do is I'llstart multiple.
I looked up at one time and Ithink I had five or six
businesses going of just beinglike, hey, let me focus on one.
Yeah, make that reallysuccessful and then, once that's
up and going, either turn itoff or or not.
Turn off, turn it over or sellit or hand it off.
(08:07):
That's what I was gonna say.
Hand it off, and now let mefocus on this, because I will be
a serial entrepreneur for sure,like I won't do one thing for
the rest of my life.
I have to do somethingdifferent or have other things
going.
I just can't do them all atonce.
Yeah, right, and so if I wascoming in and consulting, you
know, my business on any givenday, what I would tell myself is
drew focus, yeah, but thereason why I'm not focusing is
(08:30):
I'm I'm scared to death likewhat if this is?
What if this other idea isactually the idea?
What if this other idea isactually the thing that's going
to make me more money or isgoing to whatever in what I'm
doing now?
Because all my ideas in my headare great and all of them are
going to work, you know.
And so I think, if you can havea little bit of empathy for the
leader that is doing that andsee behind the veil a little bit
(08:53):
, that is them.
You know, I had a therapistonce told me that the future is
the safest place for me, becauseit's full of hope, it's full of
opportunity.
The present is scary, the pastdoesn't even exist.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So I don't want to worry about that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
But the present is scary, but the future is full of
hope.
But at the same time and I'dlove for you to speak about,
this is we can give our leadersempathy.
But if we're talking to ourleaders who are doing this,
let's talk a little bit aboutthe impact that that can have on
the people around us.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, for sure.
You know, I think I like thatword empathy because I want to
have that, especially forfounders and senior leaders in
organizations, because very fewpeople understand how much
pressure they carry, how manythings are navigating.
You know, it's like how we gotto make payroll in a couple of
(09:44):
weeks.
Cash flow is tight.
We haven't closed this otherdeal, the contract's in, but we
haven't got our first check.
There's just so much pressure,right.
And so, of course, if somethinggives you wind in your sails
and gives you energy, yeah,absolutely, I totally get you
wanting to be attracted to thething that is going to fill your
tank back up.
I think one of my criticismspotentially of the shiny penny
syndrome is a lot of timespeople look for the answer to be
(10:05):
out there somewhere.
Oh, if I could just hire thisone person, or if I get this
role, or man, if we had this oneidea or this one product.
It's like there's a silverbullet out there and it's going
to solve my problems.
There's a silver bullet outthere and it's going to solve my
problems and it's like man andyou said it focused effort like
cheetah, like gazelle, intensityI'm going to chase this down.
(10:26):
That kind of thing leads tosuccess.
I'm going to go get this withall my focus.
But what we think is oh, I sawthis person and they had this
one solution and that worked inthat business.
What if I hired them on my team?
Maybe they'll solve that for metoo.
Or they had this one solutionand that worked in that business
.
What if I hired them on my team?
Maybe they'll solve that for metoo.
Or I saw this one strategy onInstagram.
Maybe that'll help me too.
So it's we want to outsource toan expert, somebody else, make
this problem go away for me.
(10:46):
And so the new and shiny thinga lot of times promises to solve
that.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Tell me what you think about this.
I just heard this recently isthat there is a myth around
multiple streams of income.
When it comes to, like the, thewealthiest people have multiple
streams of income.
The myth is that that's how yougain wealth.
When this person that wastalking and I forget who it was,
it was Rory I saw it too.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Was it Rory?
It was Rory.
Dang it Rory.
Yes, he's always right Always.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Um, yeah, go Rory, yes, he's always right Always.
Yeah, go look up Rory.
Great company with brandbuilders, and he was saying that
all he referenced WarrenBuffett, elon Musk that they all
started with one company andthey focused and they built that
company until it was successful.
(11:34):
And then Multiple streams later.
Right, so we only see themultiple streams and think, well
, that's the way I'm going to besuccessful, I'm gonna have all
these things, when actually thepath to that was, you know,
success in one area, focus onone area.
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (11:47):
do you feel like that's true?
Well, I mean, of course,there's always going to be
exceptions, and so I think it'sprobably more true than it's not
right.
But I think people who arewired like you like I want to be
a serial entrepreneur,entrepreneur, I want to start
things about ideas.
I'm excited about them.
I don't want to put a muzzle onpeople like that because you
can kill creativity, killexcitement, and so it's it's
(12:07):
little, it's it's more like howdo we coach someone who's wired
like you to be focused for aseason?
And so when it comes to newbusiness ideas, it's it's rarely
like no, it's like hey, hey,not right now, yeah, and that's
kind of more the direction Iwould say well I.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I've had a, a friend and it's a mutual friend of ours
um coach, anagram coach, andshe told me she's like listen,
with your personality, it's goodfor you to have two or three.
Yeah, like, you need a passinglane.
You need to every once in awhile.
Now you still have todiscipline yourself with your
schedule.
So, like for me and my weeklyschedule, I've got it relatively
(12:41):
locked in now.
Like I, the things I have to doto provide for my family, like
serving my current clients well,running my business well, that
gets the first part of my week.
It's great.
I don't do anything else untilall that stuff is done well.
I feel like I've served myclients well.
And then the back half of theweek is when I can start working
on, you know, some other things.
(13:02):
It's good.
So for me, it's good to say,okay, I can have two, two and a
half, right.
So right now I have about that.
I've got about two and a half.
It feels very manageable for meat the moment.
There was a season where I waslike this is not, I cannot do
all this and all of it was, wasfailing.
And so, to your point,depending on your personality, I
think it's okay to have a fewthings, but, you know, not at
(13:25):
the detriment.
And the one thing I was goingto say, too, is that you have to
, as a leader, you have to becareful who you dream with.
Yeah, that's good, you justhave to.
And I think you and I both haveworked for leaders where we
would land something and thenthe very next meeting, it wasn't
, and there's only so many timesI can do that before I'm like,
hey, I'm out, like you got topick it or stick it at some
level.
You have to land it.
(13:45):
We've got to make some progress, because I'm not as a leader,
we're just not going to spin ourwheels for that long.
But you do have to have a safeplace where you can process
these ideas, where you can talkabout them.
And you got to know the peopleon your team.
I think I had one or two peopleon my team that I could dream
with, and they would get excitedand not overwhelmed.
(14:06):
Yeah, the rest of them werelike it's, it's too much, like
we can't, we don't, or theywould read into it right way
further into it.
And, honestly, my wife is thatway too.
She's not not one that loves,she takes the dream literally
right oh she gets, she's scaredbecause she, oh, we're going up
and move, we're going to.
What does this mean for, likeshe starts, I'm like I'm just
having fun, right, I'm justdreaming a little bit Now, you
(14:42):
know.
And so whether that's somethingthat we can help provide
through fraction x, whetherthat's, you know, you don't
necessarily have to hire it, youcan go and have you know, get
into a, uh, a think tank, orwhat is it?
Speaker 1 (14:52):
called mastermind, yeah, something like that.
Well, I think you know a lot ofleaders who don't address the
self-awareness it takes to notbe overwhelmed by shiny penny
syndrome are doomed to leadsmall organizations.
And here's what I mean by that.
Yeah, if you think about like acruise ship, right, if they
have to change direction, um,suddenly, it still takes them a
(15:16):
long time to get that giant shipturning in a different
direction.
But if you're driving a Sea-Doojet ski, you want to take a
left-hand turn, you're doing 60,you just do it.
And so I had this idea that ifyou want to steer fast, drive a
small boat.
So if you're a pivoter, ifyou're an iterator, if you're
(15:37):
always constantly changingthings, well, you can lead an
organization that can beadaptable and adjust and change
and move with you.
But if you want to lead a large, influential company, you've
got to get that shiny pennysyndrome thing managed where
you're not trying to pivot.
Because what happens is if youturn a big boat fast, two things
happen One people get sick, ortwo they fall off the boat.
(16:00):
Like there's just no way youcan control that thing turning
fast when it's that big and notget people hurt.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
That's really wise man, like well as you're talking
, you know.
What I was thinking is that,and you started out.
It's not right or wrong.
Right Like see-do is freakingfun, a hundred percent I almost
died on one when I was in highschool.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
It was awesome, really yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
It's probably how you feel partnering a business with
me on the back of a Sea-Doohalf the time and a cruise ship
is fun.
There's more people on it,right, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
You can go further, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
There's so many different things but one's not
right or wrong and honestly,like I said, you can have as
much fun.
Meaning purpose money, I meanthe bigger the organization, the
more it costs.
I mean different things likethat.
So, as you're scaling yourcompany, I think those are
questions to ask yourself.
Like bigger doesn't mean betternecessarily for that
personality.
It doesn't even mean more money.
(16:54):
It could mean less money for along time to scale it.
So I think that's a greatanalogy for our leaders that are
listening to ask themselveslike it man.
It just goes back toself-awareness.
Like what kind of leader am I?
What kind of business do I wantto have?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
When I look down the road, am I seeing a bunch of
people around the table or am Ijust like having a blast jumping
waves on the seat and I thinkwe've both seen examples of
senior leaders blowing up theirorganization because they miss
what it was like when they firstgot started and they could
pivot and they could adjust andthey could make adaptations to
it as quick as they wanted to.
And sometimes they buildsomething that's bigger than
(17:30):
they meant for it to get andit's like oh crap, I lost all my
autonomy now.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Right, because a lot of times, these leaders have a
lot.
I mean, they're inspiring,they've got charisma.
You want to do what they'redoing and then they get it, and
they get all these people aroundthem and they don't have the
the tools, the capacity or eventhe desire to lead what they've
built right.
They're like man.
That's this.
This is awful.
I never wanted to, you know, soI think that's that's really
important.
Anything else, any last wordson this, this shiny penny thing,
(17:54):
because I, I love this.
This concept is really helpfulfor me.
I think you know, if you're ashiny penny thing, cause I, I
love this, this concept isreally helpful for me.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I think you know if you're a shiny penny leader, um,
give some grace to your steadyEddie's, you know.
I think they really help makethe world turn, you know.
So you talked about like youcouldn't dream with everybody on
your team because some peoplewould go to they take it too far
.
What does it mean if I have todo this?
And so you actually need thosepeople because they're going to
implement those crazy greatideas you have and they're going
(18:22):
to give you know feet to thatvision.
So it takes both, um, you needsome people that are going to
give you energy and bring thatkind of level of intensity and
excitement and dream with you,but don't neglect the people who
have helped you build it towhere it's successful now.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Can I just make a remark on that, because I think
there's.
I wanted to give you the lastword.
No, you do it.
Wrap it up.
Here's a bit of a confession.
In my unhealthier seasons, Iwould intentionally keep the
steady eddies away from my ideasbecause I did not want their
(18:56):
feedback, because I did not wantthem to tell me we couldn't do
it, what was wrong with it,whatever.
So I would keep really greatleaders at bay In my healthier
seasons and there's actually aspecific person I have in mind.
She was my least favoriteperson to work with when I
started because she was alwaysshooting down my ideas.
(19:17):
She became my favorite personto work with when we realized
that we're actually allies.
Wanting the same thing Likethis doesn't have to be about me
, drew, and my ideas and whatgets to win.
Whatever.
She's not against me, she'sactually trying to help me.
So she became the first person Iwould bring in and I would
invite her in and say help meunderstand the ways this might
(19:39):
go wrong.
What am I not bring in?
And I would invite her in andsay help me understand the ways
this might go wrong.
What am I not seeing?
And all that.
And then, instead of her havingto be a contrarian or be
combative.
She was actually able to useher gifts and contribute and be
like well, here's an or.
I would be like here's where Iwant to go.
Could you outline a process forme, because I'll steamroll a
bunch of people, sometimesunintentionally.
(20:00):
I'm just excited, so I get upand I tell the whole staff and
there's people that needed toknow first.
We've talked about that on thepodcast.
So all that to say.
I think if you're examiningyourself as a leader, if you're
in a healthy season, you canstill be a shiny penny leader.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
We need it, we got to have those.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That's where vision comes from, but when you're
healthy, you're surroundingyourself with people and you're
inviting feedback in and you'renot taking it personal or like,
hey, you're taking the wind outof my sails, like no, we're all
in this together.
We want to go to the same place.
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