March 26, 2024 • 28 mins
Have you ever wondered what your boss really thinks but won't say? Our survey revealed a few shocking responses to our question. On this episode we find out, not only what bosses said, but you can hear how Matt and Drew coach both sides to greater clarity and clearer communication.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
you, you, you you.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Matt, what do you want to talk?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
about today.
Well, you know, we did anepisode about employees'
relationship with our leader,yep, and you said, hey, we're
going to pick on everybody,we're not just going to pick on
the employees, right?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
So no more pain or fear today.
Are we because we did that awhile back?
Are we?
Are we getting morelighthearted?
Today I had all the pain andfear I can manage.
I'm an AGRAM 7.
So I don't want to talk aboutthat at all.
All right, we noted, but weyeah, you did the poll.
We got some interestingresponses on that, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So the question we asked last episode was you know,
I wish my boss would blank andwe had the jokes about hit by
the bus and stuff.
So this is the the bosses turnto return the favor.
Yeah, and I phrase the questiona little different in this poll
.
It's like hey, what's anexpectation you have for your
staff that you struggle to sayoften or clearly enough.
So a little bit this is aboutwhat do I wish my teams knew
from me, what do I wish I couldreally say to them.
(02:29):
We got some pretty goodresponses and you know we always
talk about we really wantleaders to get better.
You know, we hate bad leadership.
We think it's expensive andit's easy to become a better
leader, right?
So this episode is going to geta really fine point on that
stuff, you know.
So I'll go through a couple ofthese and maybe, if one sticks
out, we can, we can camp on it.
One leader said I really wishthat my team cared for our
(02:52):
clients the way that I do.
I was like, yeah, I understandthat.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah.
What are your thoughts on thatone?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Well, when something's your baby, you know
one's going to care about it asmuch as you do.
That was my first instinct too,but they can care for it more
than they do now.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Oh, okay, right, so I love that idea.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I heard a podcast about a book like and it's about
improving your happiness andwe're not going to talk about
that.
But happiness is not adestination.
They talked about being happy.
So it's like, okay, can youcare a little more?
And I think you can improvepeople's connection to the work
they do, the people they serve.
But at the end of the day, ifyou're a senior leader or an
organization like, no one isgoing to care more about it than
(03:32):
you will ever.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, and that was my first, that was my default mode
and I'm happy to hear you saythat you can help your employees
care more about it.
But in a lot of times, if I'marguing on the employee's side,
I'm like, well, you have to careabout me and what my goals are
and what I value as well.
Right For me to care about thethings, because we've talked
about this on the podcast before, but I remember having you know
(03:55):
a senior leader one time got upand celebrated a couple months
of you know the best monthsfinancial success yeah, I
remember his employee thinkingwell, not for me, like I wasn't,
so I get rallying people arounda mission and vision and
purpose and all that kind ofstuff.
So I'm happy to hear you saythat you can help them care more
.
I'm curious what are some if wewere to get real, like you said
(04:18):
?
You said we're going to get alittle bit more pinpointed on
this as a leader.
How do I do that?
How do I help motivate my teamto care?
Because, you're right, they'renever going to care about this
and, frankly, they don't get thesame benefits from it that you
do, probably.
But how do you move them alongthat spectrum?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Always depends on the type of work you're doing,
right, you know, I think trueCassie said he who helps the
most profits the most.
And so I think when people seethe work they do as I'm serving
somebody like I am genuinelymaking their life better through
the thing that I do it canbecome meaningful and it's not
just punching a clock.
So if you think about tradesmen, so maybe people who do they
(04:59):
paint houses like for a living,so they're painting the inside
of a house Does the guy who'sgoing out and selling the jobs,
who owns the company, does hecare the most?
Absolutely?
Are they in there just paintingto get it over with?
Maybe, but they also may take alot of pride in.
Like man, I'm good at this, Ido it well, I get paid well for
it, and so ultimately, I do careabout the end user, I care
about the client.
If they say we did a great jobinside their house, then they're
(05:22):
going to you know, come back tous next time.
So it's future work for me.
So I think if you tie thequality of work and who you're
actually serving, you can youcan have your staff care more
about the clients that they'reserving.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, and I think giving them a path to right,
giving your employees a path andyou don't always have one for
them, but I think you know I'mjust thinking if I'm an employee
and I know like, hey, my boss,my leader, really cares deeply
about this you said this before.
I've learned this from you asan employee.
You got to care about what yourleader cares about.
You got to figure that out Forme.
I always wanted, I always wanteda leadership path, like,
(05:57):
honestly, it's more thancompensation, and my history,
you know, reflects that, whereJamie would actually say why did
you take on more leadership?
You're not getting paid anymorefor it?
Because that trust and that inbeing compensated and more
leadership opportunities for mewas a higher value in some
seasons of my life than evenmonetary compensation.
But a lot of it was justlearning what the leader cared
(06:19):
about, doing those things,working hard on those things.
And so if you want to have aleadership path or earn more
money or whatever, you discoverwhat is and I think this is part
of this podcast is having theconversations, yeah, being able
to talk to your leader, be likehey, what is it?
Or or where do you?
I mean, this is a greatquestion.
Ask a leader when do you notfeel energy from me?
(06:39):
Yeah, you know, where do you.
Where do you feel like man, I'mpulling you along and I want
you to be more of a sale, lessof an anger, like.
Ask them as a leader.
I would love for someone tocome to me and say hey, in what
areas are you passionate about?
And you're not feeling myenergy?
Because it might just be asimple course correction.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I didn't know that you cared about that.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
That's a great question to ask us a senior
leader and it gives, like youknow, what honest thanks for
asking.
Like I don't feel your energyin X, y and Z and that way you
say, okay, great.
I want to kind of course,correct that and make sure you
know I think open up those linesof communication, asking those
really good questions, is goingto help align those values.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
And you don't know what you don't know.
And that's on both sides of thetable.
So, as a leader, are you askingthe questions that help unpack
for your staff, like, hey, isthere, is there a path here that
you want to take?
Can I help you grow in thisorganization?
And if you're the employee likesaying hey, where, where can I
grow, where can I investigate,where can I find out more about
what we're doing here?
And there has to be a healthycuriosity on both sides of like.
(07:41):
I wonder if they care enough tomaybe be someone who grows in
this organization.
And the staff person has got tobe like man.
I wonder if this is a leaderwho cares enough if I win here,
that they'll invest in me anddevelop me so that I can have
more influence and more impacthere.
Yeah, but I do think there'sjust a lot of like people on
both sides of the table just notbeing curious enough to find
out what's next in the journey.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Well, and you said this last episode and I've
reflected on this a lot youtalked about this whole pick two
concept, which we kind ofdisagreed on it a little bit.
We just had some good likehealthy debate.
But I think I think the premiseof what you're saying is is
right and I think it was culture, compensation or recognition.
Yeah, those are three.
You're like, listen, you'repick two, you're not going to
(08:22):
get all three of those things.
And I'm like the you know, theoptimist like yeah, you can have
a company that has all three ofthose things Like, but the
truth, the reality is, historyshows that you're probably going
to get one or two of thosethings, not all three.
So, on the employee side, don'tsign up for an organization that
is a really mission driven,purpose driven type organization
(08:43):
Like don't go work for anonprofit if you want to make a
bunch of money Like that's onyou, don't.
You don't have to work there,right, and you can't expect them
at that point to compensate youlike you would in another.
You know, or you know, if youwant to be your own boss on your
own business and you want tomake that kind of money, you
have to take the risk to do thatright, and so some of it is
(09:03):
just understanding what youvalue and not not at putting an
expectation on that leaderorganization.
That's not fair.
They never.
They never promised that in thefirst place.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So a couple other answers for this.
You know, what expectations doyou have for your staff?
That you struggle to say oftenor clearly enough was the
question, and this one was saythat one more time.
that what's an expectation youhave for your staff that you, as
the leader, struggle to sayoften or clearly enough.
So it's just you're notcommunicating enough to them, or
not communicating clearlyenough to them often and clearly
.
And so this was I want to payyou more, but I can't make the
(09:36):
numbers work right now, and Ithink it's tied to this next one
.
There are just some things thatI can't tell you about, and so
it's that kind of man behind thecurtain runs.
The organization, the employeesare in the dark situation.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So you've been an executive leadership in and I've
watched you specifically be insituations where you were the
point leader in crisis that youwere oftentimes, sometimes the
only one, or maybe even one oftwo people, even on the
executive team, that knew whatwas going on.
Like.
It was that sensitive Like, andwe were, we were teammates at
(10:13):
times where I didn't know whatwas going on.
It was either not appropriateor it wasn't time yet, or like,
or you were just so far outfront that you had to carry
those things In your experience.
How do you balance that?
How do you balance clearcommunication, transparency with
your team, with your staff, andalso just bearing the burden of
information that you can'tshare sometimes?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
It takes a North Star right.
There's got to be a coreconviction internally that and
for me.
I worked in an organizationthat was disingenuine about
transitions and anytime somebodywas getting fired what was
communicated is oh, so-and-so isgoing to start their own
company.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
It's like, no, they're not, you're fired.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
And this is the best they can do in this moment is
come up with that excuse.
And again, I'm not sayingspecifically every time there's
a transition you should airdirty laundry, but I had this
sense of like man it If I everget in leadership, I want to be
as transparent as possible,because I meant my BS meter goes
off in moments like that and Ijust won't stand for it Almost
everyone's does, by the way, Imean it's like you're not
(11:13):
fooling anybody.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, like everyone's .
Like what's the real story here?
Given the real story?
Yeah, I mean, do it, you know,obviously do it with discretion,
but yeah, so we keep going.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, so when I had the chance to get closer to
situations that were, you know,critical in the organization.
Things were, you know, therewere mistakes made and you know,
sometimes these were legalissues, sometimes these were
financial issues, and I gotentrusted with, you know, caring
and managing tough situations.
It's like, okay, not everybodyneeds to know everything at the
same time, but people need toknow enough that it puts that
(11:46):
human curiosity at rest.
It's like, hey, I noticedso-and-so and so-and-so are
jumping into a meeting.
I wonder what's going on overthere.
And it's just normal to wonder,like I wonder how that
situation is gonna impact me.
I wonder what's going on withthis and that.
And you know we're wired to kindof be curious about seeing
things in organizations thatlook, yeah, they might not pass
the smell test, and so I think Ijust committed to listen there.
(12:09):
There are some things that goon in organizations that do they
ultimately affect you?
No, do you want to know aboutthem?
Yeah, and you know, if I was inyour shoes or in your seat, I
would want to know about thattoo.
Yeah, but for the interests ofthe organization or the people
involved in a circumstance, it'snot prudent, it's not best, to
share all the specifics ofwhat's going on.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Well in the long term .
Like you're, you're wanting tobuild trust with the people that
you lead in.
What doesn't build trust is istransferring information or
communicating early for the sakeof wanting to be liked or
wanting like.
That's what Keeley's healed forme.
There's times where I wouldshare communication because I'm
trying to bring that person in.
I want you to like me, I wantyou to you know, I want to.
(12:52):
There's a part of Sharinginformation soon that that
brings a loyalty there, ashort-term loyalty, as opposed
to saying no, I'm gonna betrustworthy with this
information because I want youto be able to trust me if you're
ever on the other side of somecommunication and some things
employees just need to know isand it's much more than a larger
organization where there's amulti-level leadership and staff
(13:14):
.
There's just there's.
There's a process by whichcommunication has to filter down
and sometimes that processtakes a long time and that would
drive me insane.
Hundred percent, because I wantto cut to the end.
Let's just tell her whateverwith but sometimes you have to
and finally I actually startedbringing people around me to say
, hey, here's what needs to becommunicated.
Can you actually map out for methe, the, the, the timeline,
(13:37):
the next steps and who needsanother?
Because Nine out of ten times Iwould, I would mess that up
because I wouldn't be thinking,oh, this person needs to know
that for this reason, and thisis how it affects her job, I
wasn't intentionally trying tokeep them out, I just wasn't
thinking through all the detailsof how it might affect this
person and so they get mistakestoo.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
It's like there's a sequence of communication, yeah,
and you was like, oh gosh, I'vegot this great idea.
I've got this.
Things got to get handled.
A problem, whatever it is, youwant to go to the teams that you
know can start to fix theproblem sooner than later.
Right, maybe you miss a layerof leadership.
I didn't tell somebody'smanager, hey, this is going on,
because I went straight to theperson that could solve the
problem, right?
It's like no, there is asequence to roll out
(14:16):
communication, especially whenit's like crisis level, right,
like this right and I think whatyou know, if I were answering
this question in the poll, youknow what do I struggle to say
often, and clearly enough is andsometimes I just don't know
like, just because you're in aleadership role doesn't mean you
have all the answers, all thevision, all the direction, all
the solutions.
And so sometimes you know, whenit's like there are things that
(14:38):
I just can't tell you, it'sbecause I haven't figured it out
yet.
I don't know, I'm not sure yet.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Would you so you're saying you would do more of
actually Letting them know thatyou didn't know?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
That's a good question.
I would want that to be likejust kind of an umbrella idea.
Hey look, senior leadership ishas high integrity, you have
high character, we were missiondriven and you know values,
focus.
We're gonna accomplish stuffbest we can and at the end of
the day, we don't have all thetools, we don't have all the
solutions.
That's why we're a team.
We're gonna work together.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yeah, I remember, like, especially during COVID,
you and I were responsible formaking a lot of decisions that,
yeah, impact a lot of people andI don't know our percentage on
how many we got right, how manygot wrong, right, like I think
everybody was just winging it,figuring it out, but I Think I
would have probably a little bitmore.
Not come, not completely,because you don't lose trust,
(15:30):
but hey, these people know whatthey're doing at all.
Right, but I think there's alittle bit of humility that we
could show and leadershipsometimes to bring people into
the solution, because a lot oftimes they're like well, why
didn't you tell us earlier?
And some of it was like yousaid, the timeline just wasn't,
it wasn't time for you to knowyet.
Yeah, and if you're an employee, listen to that.
That's just a pill you have toswallow.
(15:51):
Sometimes, yeah, it's likelisten, wherever you're at in
the organization, it.
You may not be privileged tothe information yet and there's
good reasons you got to trustyour leader.
There's good reasons why thathappens, but some of it is
exactly what you just said, likeI think on times where I just
didn't know and I was processinga decision a little bit sooner,
I would have got the optionsout in front of the team and
(16:11):
said okay, here's some of thethings we're considering right
now.
We don't know the best courseof action.
We value your feedback.
Here's what we're doing, here'swhat we're not.
We're just sitting on it.
We're not just, like you know,it's not a competency issue here
as far as like, we're lazy andnot make decision, but these
have massive implications for alot of people.
We don't want to make a quickdecision, but Be thinking here's
(16:32):
option a, b and c what how thatmight affect you if we choose
one of these options.
So that way, at least they'reprocessing at a time.
Okay, this is what I need to do, maybe even start to prepare a
little bit more.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
And and you said this a second ago it's like the more
complex the organization yeah,the more the challenge, the more
challenge it is to reallyfigure out where in the
organization should a decisionbe made.
So I've got a principle that'slike man, let's win.
Possible.
The decision should be made atthe lowest level in the org
chart.
Possible.
(17:02):
Like if senior leaders aremaking all the decisions, you've
got a very stuck organizationbecause everything rises to that
senior leadership table andthey're deciding on items that
are honestly not thatsignificant, not that important.
You need to push decisions downas much as they possibly can,
and you know the season ofbusiness the last, we'll call it
, the last six right years,where things are unpredictable
(17:22):
financially.
Things are unpredictable whenit comes to culture, things are
unpredictable when it comes toyou know how the pandemic
affected things.
Some of those decisionscouldn't get pushed down far
enough in the organization topick up speed.
So what happened is a lot ofdecisions got rolled up in those
years to a senior team acrosslots of industries, and no one
really had enough data to startto make those decisions.
(17:44):
You know clearly enough, withreally clear direction, to tell
their teams what was going on,and so there was a lot of
frustration, I would imagine, inthat season if you're an
employer.
But kind of going back to thisquestion, like sometimes leaders
just don't have all the answers, and it can be frustrating.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
And when you said before I think before we started
shooting too, like you got to.
As a leader, you have to saythings until you're exhausted of
it, right?
I mean, unpack that a littlebit more, like you buy, I know
for me, like I just get so tiredof hearing my own voice
sometimes, but that's probablyabout the time the team is
starting to get it.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
So I've heard other people say this thing.
Patrick Lincione talked aboutthis in one of his books where
he saw a guy toting somethingbig and heavy at the airport.
He was flying with it and itwas something that he used to
sell his company or business.
I don't know what it was, butit's like how exhausting is it
to drag around this you knowpiece of product to have to
(18:38):
demonstrate and showcase it?
But it's like the commitment tocarry that around is really
what senior leaders arecommitting to do.
Like, even though it'scumbersome and burdensome and
it's awkward to carry thesethings.
When you're communicatingvision, when you're
communicating culture, you haveto say it so often that it feels
like a burden.
It feels uncomfortable becausepeople forget they've got other
priorities in their life and sowhen it comes to communicating
(19:01):
like, you can't say somethingenough and, honestly, if you're
saying something great, peoplewill like oh yeah, I love it
when he says it becomes a mantraor whatever.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well, and the last thing I'll say on this topic is
it goes back to what we talkedbefore.
If you're an employee, chancesare your leader is not
intentionally withholdinginformation from you to make
your life difficult because theyjust don't like you.
Like, I had an employee onetime come to me and they were
probably three or four rungsdown on the org chart.
(19:31):
I don't know how you say that,right, but you know what I mean.
Like in the.
And they came to me and theyactually informed me as to why
they needed to know theinformation.
Right, like hey, here's howthis.
And I was so grateful because itwas a blind spot for me and
they weren't doing it in a waythat made me feel like you know,
I'm entitled to thisinformation.
It was more of like hey, justso you know this, how this, this
, how it impacts my world.
(19:52):
And it was very helpful for meto be like oh, okay, I'll cut
you in earlier next time on this, or I'll make sure the right
people talk to you or you're inthe right rooms, or whatever,
because now I'm educated.
So I would just say to theemployee don't, don't hold that
in and be frustrated.
Communicate to your leader thewhy and chances are your leader
will adjust.
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I love that.
You know I hit on this rightbefore we jumped into that.
There are things that justcan't tell you response, but one
was I want to pay you more, butI can't make the numbers work
right now.
The reason I rolled that intoit is because there are some
organizations that don't haveopen book policies where it's
like hey, I'm going to show youthe entire P and L, we're going
to look at all the items of youknow costs and expenses and
revenues, and a lot of employeeswouldn't know what to do if
(20:34):
they had those documents infront of them anyway.
So right.
So I should get a 10% bumpbecause of I'm looking at this
one bucket of a.
You know P and L.
I do think I had this businessprofessor in college and he said
this was his philosophy hiregreat people, pay him as much as
(20:55):
he possibly can and expect theworld from him.
And you know, I I'm surethere's some flaws in that, but
man, it's really simple.
It's like yeah, go find greatpeople, pay them as much as you
can and then make sure theexpectations are right.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
When you think back about on your hiring history.
Would you have hired lesspeople at a higher rate, or
would you have kept hiring morepeople at a more entry level
rate, or would you kept theratio about the same?
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, probably depends on the industry.
But when I was in purposenon-profit work, that's just a
development system.
It's rarely meant to go findall-stars because the resources
are slim, so you can't go findworld-class talent and pay them
a lot of money.
So you have to find people whoare passionate about the mission
, passionate about the vision,get them on where you can afford
(21:44):
them and develop them intogreat leaders.
But in other businesses,especially investing in real
estate, I don't have time to paya bunch of cheap architects and
engineers and contractors.
I've got to get jobs done quickbecause the time value of money
makes these deals reallyexpensive.
So I think it depends on theindustry, but absolutely when
all else fails, developingtalent is cheaper than buying
(22:07):
talent.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, no, I just was processing that.
I thought your answer is theright one, I believe.
I think depends on the industry.
I have a lot of empathy forthat question, though, because a
lot of my world and seniorleadership was in creative and
marketing space, which theywanted to keep me as far as I
spent the money.
They were keeping me away fromthe books, away from the numbers
(22:31):
, and so there was a lot oftimes where I was in senior
leadership but I was not pullingthe trigger on what my people
were getting paid.
I was an advocate for them and Iwanted to pay them as much as I
possibly could, but I wasn'tthe ultimate decider on that,
and so I just have empathy forthat question, and I think, as a
(22:55):
leader, if you're in that spot,the best you can do is just be
a strong advocate to whoever isholding the purse strings of
your employees, why they do whatthey do.
I had a great relationship withour CFO, and he wanted the best
for our team too, which wasawesome, but there was a lot of
times where I had to educate himon what this person even does,
(23:16):
what they're doing, why it's avalue, and once he got it, he
was able to understand.
He would be very generous, youknow.
But I think as a leader, ifyou're not the one actually
making the decision, you have tobe a strong advocate for your
team, why they deserve it, whythey need it, and if you can't,
then honestly that's a problem.
You need to figure that out.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I will go ahead no that was it, that was it.
I will say attention, I do livein.
Thank you.
When it comes to figuring outhow do we pay entry level people
.
Is my own story really impactsfor the good and for the bad?
It's like, man, when I startedI only got paid X.
When you're starting, you'regetting paid 50, 60, 100 percent
(23:55):
more than when I started.
Part of me is like okay, no,don't let your lid be anybody
else's lid.
That's the side I want to leanon.
More often than not it's likeno, don't let your experience
ruin someone else's entry levelexperience.
But I also know, man, struggleis valuable.
I'm not trying to make peoplestruggle, don't get me wrong.
(24:15):
I'm trying to say when you geteverything you want right when
you start, it does kill yourprey drive.
It does kill your motivationbecause it's like man, I just
got everything I wanted.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I feel you on that?
That could be probably a wholeanother episode, because I do
think I don't want to sound likethe old guy nowadays, but the
truth is it's harder to find.
When I was coming up, yourfirst gig sometimes was unpaid,
sometimes it was an internship,where you're working, you're
waiting tables and you'reinterning somewhere to get in
the door and like that's notreally the.
(24:46):
I mean, a lot of times peopleare expecting to get pretty
great job salaries coming aroundto college and, hey, more power
.
I would have done that if Icould have Right.
I didn't have that option.
But I agree with you.
I think we're bypassing somevalue in the early entry,
startup days where we get in andwe work hard because we believe
in something, we want to makeit better, and then we prove
ourselves and there's some valueand worth in that too, and and
(25:08):
100%.
But then I'm also with you too,like I want to.
I had some great young leaderson my team before and I was
really thrilled to compensatethem.
Yeah, what I, what I felt waswell like I was like man.
I never got this coming.
It's all like I was happy to dothat, but.
But they also had the workethic, you know, and that's
that's important.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I know it's on a compensation and salary episode.
I think what I want leaders toknow is part of the reason a
fraction X exist is this isn't aconversation you can have with
your staff.
Like hey, here's where I reallystruggle.
And trying to compensate you,like you can really miss, say
these things yeah, as you'retrying to process what's, what's
our compensation philosophy,right, rather than just, you
(25:46):
know, spewing ideas out, andyour team gets really twisted.
It's like, wait, you want me tobe compensated, well, but
you're worried that I'm notgoing to struggle.
Like you're not making anysense right now, yeah, but the
bottom line is, when you're inleadership and you've got these
decisions to make, they're justdifficult, right, really hard.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
That's part of what we do and we we do these these
off sites.
I mean part of it is dive itinto strategy, vision, goals and
does your staff still reflectwhere you want to go?
I mean, sometimes you've builtsomething and then culture
changes, or or even your visionchanges, something changes and
you're stuck with a staff thatis like wait a minute, this
doesn't reflect where we'regoing now and you need to audit.
(26:21):
But you're so close to itSometimes it's hard to see it.
You know, and so I've watchedyou do that, and in these
offsite environments where yougo and you dig in, then you make
everything in your organizationa line under hey.
This is where we want to go andeven as our team I always got
because I would restructureevery other week.
You know, of course I wouldn'trecommend that.
That was just me being bored,but I do think there's a time
(26:41):
and a place for a good like hey.
Does our current team whatthey're getting paid and
compensated?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
the structure of the team doesn't reflect where we're
trying to go with thisorganization, that's right and I
think maybe we'll just wrapwith this last item on here is
you know what's something youwish you could tell your staff?
And it says I became a managerbefore I knew how to lead, and I
think people feel the effectsof that sometimes, that you get
good at something, yeah, likehey, I'm really good at sales, I
was really good at sales fortwo years, and so now you're the
(27:08):
sales manager.
It's like well, man, I wasreally good at sales.
I'm not sure how to lead othersales people.
That's a different skill set.
So so frequently in business themistake is made.
It's called the Peter principle.
It's when you get promotedbeyond your competency and I
think there's healthy stretchinglike hey, we see something in
you, we think you can be thisand we're going to develop you
and train you on how to be agood manager, but that's, that's
(27:31):
the exception.
What's normal is for people youshowed up to work two weeks in
a row on time.
You're the boss now.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, it's like yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I don't know how to lead people, and so that that
happens a lot.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
That's.
I think that's really important, because if I was to answer
that question, I mean and I wasjust being gut level honest what
I wish my team knew is I'm notnearly as confident in my
leadership abilities as what Iproject.
Like there's so manyinsecurities that I have about
and I really do care about mypeople, and so it was hurtful
(28:05):
and personal to me when I feltlike I made a leadership mistake
because I was like oh man, butthen that just prayed back into
my insecurities.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
So what's the healthy level of communication where
you can be vulnerable and behonest but also be the right
amount of confident to lead ateam.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Well, I think I think it's just understanding that,
like you said earlier in theepisode, you admitting that you
don't know something is not asign of weakness.
You know, you inviting peoplein to the solution and inviting
them to the table when it'sappropriate and when it's right,
you know, I don't.
I think that actually winspeople over to say, hey, we want
to come alongside you.
I don't think, as leaders, wehave to to continue to hold up
(28:45):
this banner of we got all theanswers and we got.
You know, we're the smartest inthe room and where I mean my
last position.
When I left that role and thiswas not false humility Every
leader at the table with me onmy team was better at what they
did.
Like.
At that point, my job was togive them vision and to care for
(29:07):
them, like make sure they weredoing well and had what they
needed, and I hadn't you knowgoal like that stuff.
But it was not to tell them howto do their job.
They all knew how to do theirjob better than I could tell
them how to do it Right.
And you can either take that oneor two ways that can prey on
your insecurity, or you can say,man, this is awesome.
I've got some rock stars.
Let me set them free to lead.
So I don't know if that answersyour question, but I think
(29:28):
there's.
There's more value inauthenticity, like true
authenticity, not the put ontype of you know the buzzword
yeah exactly, but the true, likeI'm going to let my guard down
here, I'm going to be a humanwith you and I'm going to invite
you into the solution.
I actually think that does moreto build trust with your team
than it does to hurt yourleadership.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
That's great, Drew.
Thanks so much.
I think this is going to bereally helpful for leaders to
commit to communicating right,Be committed to casting vision,
creating culture, and give aplace for your team to grow and
develop.
you, you, you you.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Matt, what do you want to talk?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
about today.
Well, you know, we did anepisode about employees'
relationship with our leader,yep, and you said, hey, we're
going to pick on everybody,we're not just going to pick on
the employees, right?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
So no more pain or fear today.
Are we because we did that awhile back?
Are we?
Are we getting morelighthearted?
Today I had all the pain andfear I can manage.
I'm an AGRAM 7.
So I don't want to talk aboutthat at all.
All right, we noted, but weyeah, you did the poll.
We got some interestingresponses on that, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So the question we asked last episode was you know,
I wish my boss would blank andwe had the jokes about hit by
the bus and stuff.
So this is the the bosses turnto return the favor.
Yeah, and I phrase the questiona little different in this poll
.
It's like hey, what's anexpectation you have for your
staff that you struggle to sayoften or clearly enough.
So a little bit this is aboutwhat do I wish my teams knew
from me, what do I wish I couldreally say to them.
(02:29):
We got some pretty goodresponses and you know we always
talk about we really wantleaders to get better.
You know, we hate bad leadership.
We think it's expensive andit's easy to become a better
leader, right?
So this episode is going to geta really fine point on that
stuff, you know.
So I'll go through a couple ofthese and maybe, if one sticks
out, we can, we can camp on it.
One leader said I really wishthat my team cared for our
(02:52):
clients the way that I do.
I was like, yeah, I understandthat.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah.
What are your thoughts on thatone?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Well, when something's your baby, you know
one's going to care about it asmuch as you do.
That was my first instinct too,but they can care for it more
than they do now.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Oh, okay, right, so I love that idea.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I heard a podcast about a book like and it's about
improving your happiness andwe're not going to talk about
that.
But happiness is not adestination.
They talked about being happy.
So it's like, okay, can youcare a little more?
And I think you can improvepeople's connection to the work
they do, the people they serve.
But at the end of the day, ifyou're a senior leader or an
organization like, no one isgoing to care more about it than
(03:32):
you will ever.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, and that was my first, that was my default mode
and I'm happy to hear you saythat you can help your employees
care more about it.
But in a lot of times, if I'marguing on the employee's side,
I'm like, well, you have to careabout me and what my goals are
and what I value as well.
Right For me to care about thethings, because we've talked
about this on the podcast before, but I remember having you know
(03:55):
a senior leader one time got upand celebrated a couple months
of you know the best monthsfinancial success yeah, I
remember his employee thinkingwell, not for me, like I wasn't,
so I get rallying people arounda mission and vision and
purpose and all that kind ofstuff.
So I'm happy to hear you saythat you can help them care more
.
I'm curious what are some if wewere to get real, like you said
(04:18):
?
You said we're going to get alittle bit more pinpointed on
this as a leader.
How do I do that?
How do I help motivate my teamto care?
Because, you're right, they'renever going to care about this
and, frankly, they don't get thesame benefits from it that you
do, probably.
But how do you move them alongthat spectrum?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Always depends on the type of work you're doing,
right, you know, I think trueCassie said he who helps the
most profits the most.
And so I think when people seethe work they do as I'm serving
somebody like I am genuinelymaking their life better through
the thing that I do it canbecome meaningful and it's not
just punching a clock.
So if you think about tradesmen, so maybe people who do they
(04:59):
paint houses like for a living,so they're painting the inside
of a house Does the guy who'sgoing out and selling the jobs,
who owns the company, does hecare the most?
Absolutely?
Are they in there just paintingto get it over with?
Maybe, but they also may take alot of pride in.
Like man, I'm good at this, Ido it well, I get paid well for
it, and so ultimately, I do careabout the end user, I care
about the client.
If they say we did a great jobinside their house, then they're
(05:22):
going to you know, come back tous next time.
So it's future work for me.
So I think if you tie thequality of work and who you're
actually serving, you can youcan have your staff care more
about the clients that they'reserving.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, and I think giving them a path to right,
giving your employees a path andyou don't always have one for
them, but I think you know I'mjust thinking if I'm an employee
and I know like, hey, my boss,my leader, really cares deeply
about this you said this before.
I've learned this from you asan employee.
You got to care about what yourleader cares about.
You got to figure that out Forme.
I always wanted, I always wanteda leadership path, like,
(05:57):
honestly, it's more thancompensation, and my history,
you know, reflects that, whereJamie would actually say why did
you take on more leadership?
You're not getting paid anymorefor it?
Because that trust and that inbeing compensated and more
leadership opportunities for mewas a higher value in some
seasons of my life than evenmonetary compensation.
But a lot of it was justlearning what the leader cared
(06:19):
about, doing those things,working hard on those things.
And so if you want to have aleadership path or earn more
money or whatever, you discoverwhat is and I think this is part
of this podcast is having theconversations, yeah, being able
to talk to your leader, be likehey, what is it?
Or or where do you?
I mean, this is a greatquestion.
Ask a leader when do you notfeel energy from me?
(06:39):
Yeah, you know, where do you.
Where do you feel like man, I'mpulling you along and I want
you to be more of a sale, lessof an anger, like.
Ask them as a leader.
I would love for someone tocome to me and say hey, in what
areas are you passionate about?
And you're not feeling myenergy?
Because it might just be asimple course correction.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I didn't know that you cared about that.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
That's a great question to ask us a senior
leader and it gives, like youknow, what honest thanks for
asking.
Like I don't feel your energyin X, y and Z and that way you
say, okay, great.
I want to kind of course,correct that and make sure you
know I think open up those linesof communication, asking those
really good questions, is goingto help align those values.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
And you don't know what you don't know.
And that's on both sides of thetable.
So, as a leader, are you askingthe questions that help unpack
for your staff, like, hey, isthere, is there a path here that
you want to take?
Can I help you grow in thisorganization?
And if you're the employee likesaying hey, where, where can I
grow, where can I investigate,where can I find out more about
what we're doing here?
And there has to be a healthycuriosity on both sides of like.
(07:41):
I wonder if they care enough tomaybe be someone who grows in
this organization.
And the staff person has got tobe like man.
I wonder if this is a leaderwho cares enough if I win here,
that they'll invest in me anddevelop me so that I can have
more influence and more impacthere.
Yeah, but I do think there'sjust a lot of like people on
both sides of the table just notbeing curious enough to find
out what's next in the journey.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Well, and you said this last episode and I've
reflected on this a lot youtalked about this whole pick two
concept, which we kind ofdisagreed on it a little bit.
We just had some good likehealthy debate.
But I think I think the premiseof what you're saying is is
right and I think it was culture, compensation or recognition.
Yeah, those are three.
You're like, listen, you'repick two, you're not going to
(08:22):
get all three of those things.
And I'm like the you know, theoptimist like yeah, you can have
a company that has all three ofthose things Like, but the
truth, the reality is, historyshows that you're probably going
to get one or two of thosethings, not all three.
So, on the employee side, don'tsign up for an organization that
is a really mission driven,purpose driven type organization
(08:43):
Like don't go work for anonprofit if you want to make a
bunch of money Like that's onyou, don't.
You don't have to work there,right, and you can't expect them
at that point to compensate youlike you would in another.
You know, or you know, if youwant to be your own boss on your
own business and you want tomake that kind of money, you
have to take the risk to do thatright, and so some of it is
(09:03):
just understanding what youvalue and not not at putting an
expectation on that leaderorganization.
That's not fair.
They never.
They never promised that in thefirst place.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So a couple other answers for this.
You know, what expectations doyou have for your staff?
That you struggle to say oftenor clearly enough was the
question, and this one was saythat one more time.
that what's an expectation youhave for your staff that you, as
the leader, struggle to sayoften or clearly enough.
So it's just you're notcommunicating enough to them, or
not communicating clearlyenough to them often and clearly
.
And so this was I want to payyou more, but I can't make the
(09:36):
numbers work right now, and Ithink it's tied to this next one
.
There are just some things thatI can't tell you about, and so
it's that kind of man behind thecurtain runs.
The organization, the employeesare in the dark situation.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So you've been an executive leadership in and I've
watched you specifically be insituations where you were the
point leader in crisis that youwere oftentimes, sometimes the
only one, or maybe even one oftwo people, even on the
executive team, that knew whatwas going on.
Like.
It was that sensitive Like, andwe were, we were teammates at
(10:13):
times where I didn't know whatwas going on.
It was either not appropriateor it wasn't time yet, or like,
or you were just so far outfront that you had to carry
those things In your experience.
How do you balance that?
How do you balance clearcommunication, transparency with
your team, with your staff, andalso just bearing the burden of
information that you can'tshare sometimes?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
It takes a North Star right.
There's got to be a coreconviction internally that and
for me.
I worked in an organizationthat was disingenuine about
transitions and anytime somebodywas getting fired what was
communicated is oh, so-and-so isgoing to start their own
company.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
It's like, no, they're not, you're fired.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
And this is the best they can do in this moment is
come up with that excuse.
And again, I'm not sayingspecifically every time there's
a transition you should airdirty laundry, but I had this
sense of like man it If I everget in leadership, I want to be
as transparent as possible,because I meant my BS meter goes
off in moments like that and Ijust won't stand for it Almost
everyone's does, by the way, Imean it's like you're not
(11:13):
fooling anybody.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, like everyone's .
Like what's the real story here?
Given the real story?
Yeah, I mean, do it, you know,obviously do it with discretion,
but yeah, so we keep going.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, so when I had the chance to get closer to
situations that were, you know,critical in the organization.
Things were, you know, therewere mistakes made and you know,
sometimes these were legalissues, sometimes these were
financial issues, and I gotentrusted with, you know, caring
and managing tough situations.
It's like, okay, not everybodyneeds to know everything at the
same time, but people need toknow enough that it puts that
(11:46):
human curiosity at rest.
It's like, hey, I noticedso-and-so and so-and-so are
jumping into a meeting.
I wonder what's going on overthere.
And it's just normal to wonder,like I wonder how that
situation is gonna impact me.
I wonder what's going on withthis and that.
And you know we're wired to kindof be curious about seeing
things in organizations thatlook, yeah, they might not pass
the smell test, and so I think Ijust committed to listen there.
(12:09):
There are some things that goon in organizations that do they
ultimately affect you?
No, do you want to know aboutthem?
Yeah, and you know, if I was inyour shoes or in your seat, I
would want to know about thattoo.
Yeah, but for the interests ofthe organization or the people
involved in a circumstance, it'snot prudent, it's not best, to
share all the specifics ofwhat's going on.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Well in the long term .
Like you're, you're wanting tobuild trust with the people that
you lead in.
What doesn't build trust is istransferring information or
communicating early for the sakeof wanting to be liked or
wanting like.
That's what Keeley's healed forme.
There's times where I wouldshare communication because I'm
trying to bring that person in.
I want you to like me, I wantyou to you know, I want to.
(12:52):
There's a part of Sharinginformation soon that that
brings a loyalty there, ashort-term loyalty, as opposed
to saying no, I'm gonna betrustworthy with this
information because I want youto be able to trust me if you're
ever on the other side of somecommunication and some things
employees just need to know isand it's much more than a larger
organization where there's amulti-level leadership and staff
(13:14):
.
There's just there's.
There's a process by whichcommunication has to filter down
and sometimes that processtakes a long time and that would
drive me insane.
Hundred percent, because I wantto cut to the end.
Let's just tell her whateverwith but sometimes you have to
and finally I actually startedbringing people around me to say
, hey, here's what needs to becommunicated.
Can you actually map out for methe, the, the, the timeline,
(13:37):
the next steps and who needsanother?
Because Nine out of ten times Iwould, I would mess that up
because I wouldn't be thinking,oh, this person needs to know
that for this reason, and thisis how it affects her job, I
wasn't intentionally trying tokeep them out, I just wasn't
thinking through all the detailsof how it might affect this
person and so they get mistakestoo.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
It's like there's a sequence of communication, yeah,
and you was like, oh gosh, I'vegot this great idea.
I've got this.
Things got to get handled.
A problem, whatever it is, youwant to go to the teams that you
know can start to fix theproblem sooner than later.
Right, maybe you miss a layerof leadership.
I didn't tell somebody'smanager, hey, this is going on,
because I went straight to theperson that could solve the
problem, right?
It's like no, there is asequence to roll out
(14:16):
communication, especially whenit's like crisis level, right,
like this right and I think whatyou know, if I were answering
this question in the poll, youknow what do I struggle to say
often, and clearly enough is andsometimes I just don't know
like, just because you're in aleadership role doesn't mean you
have all the answers, all thevision, all the direction, all
the solutions.
And so sometimes you know, whenit's like there are things that
(14:38):
I just can't tell you, it'sbecause I haven't figured it out
yet.
I don't know, I'm not sure yet.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Would you so you're saying you would do more of
actually Letting them know thatyou didn't know?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
That's a good question.
I would want that to be likejust kind of an umbrella idea.
Hey look, senior leadership ishas high integrity, you have
high character, we were missiondriven and you know values,
focus.
We're gonna accomplish stuffbest we can and at the end of
the day, we don't have all thetools, we don't have all the
solutions.
That's why we're a team.
We're gonna work together.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yeah, I remember, like, especially during COVID,
you and I were responsible formaking a lot of decisions that,
yeah, impact a lot of people andI don't know our percentage on
how many we got right, how manygot wrong, right, like I think
everybody was just winging it,figuring it out, but I Think I
would have probably a little bitmore.
Not come, not completely,because you don't lose trust,
(15:30):
but hey, these people know whatthey're doing at all.
Right, but I think there's alittle bit of humility that we
could show and leadershipsometimes to bring people into
the solution, because a lot oftimes they're like well, why
didn't you tell us earlier?
And some of it was like yousaid, the timeline just wasn't,
it wasn't time for you to knowyet.
Yeah, and if you're an employee, listen to that.
That's just a pill you have toswallow.
(15:51):
Sometimes, yeah, it's likelisten, wherever you're at in
the organization, it.
You may not be privileged tothe information yet and there's
good reasons you got to trustyour leader.
There's good reasons why thathappens, but some of it is
exactly what you just said, likeI think on times where I just
didn't know and I was processinga decision a little bit sooner,
I would have got the optionsout in front of the team and
(16:11):
said okay, here's some of thethings we're considering right
now.
We don't know the best courseof action.
We value your feedback.
Here's what we're doing, here'swhat we're not.
We're just sitting on it.
We're not just, like you know,it's not a competency issue here
as far as like, we're lazy andnot make decision, but these
have massive implications for alot of people.
We don't want to make a quickdecision, but Be thinking here's
(16:32):
option a, b and c what how thatmight affect you if we choose
one of these options.
So that way, at least they'reprocessing at a time.
Okay, this is what I need to do, maybe even start to prepare a
little bit more.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
And and you said this a second ago it's like the more
complex the organization yeah,the more the challenge, the more
challenge it is to reallyfigure out where in the
organization should a decisionbe made.
So I've got a principle that'slike man, let's win.
Possible.
The decision should be made atthe lowest level in the org
chart.
Possible.
(17:02):
Like if senior leaders aremaking all the decisions, you've
got a very stuck organizationbecause everything rises to that
senior leadership table andthey're deciding on items that
are honestly not thatsignificant, not that important.
You need to push decisions downas much as they possibly can,
and you know the season ofbusiness the last, we'll call it
, the last six right years,where things are unpredictable
(17:22):
financially.
Things are unpredictable whenit comes to culture, things are
unpredictable when it comes toyou know how the pandemic
affected things.
Some of those decisionscouldn't get pushed down far
enough in the organization topick up speed.
So what happened is a lot ofdecisions got rolled up in those
years to a senior team acrosslots of industries, and no one
really had enough data to startto make those decisions.
(17:44):
You know clearly enough, withreally clear direction, to tell
their teams what was going on,and so there was a lot of
frustration, I would imagine, inthat season if you're an
employer.
But kind of going back to thisquestion, like sometimes leaders
just don't have all the answers, and it can be frustrating.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
And when you said before I think before we started
shooting too, like you got to.
As a leader, you have to saythings until you're exhausted of
it, right?
I mean, unpack that a littlebit more, like you buy, I know
for me, like I just get so tiredof hearing my own voice
sometimes, but that's probablyabout the time the team is
starting to get it.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
So I've heard other people say this thing.
Patrick Lincione talked aboutthis in one of his books where
he saw a guy toting somethingbig and heavy at the airport.
He was flying with it and itwas something that he used to
sell his company or business.
I don't know what it was, butit's like how exhausting is it
to drag around this you knowpiece of product to have to
(18:38):
demonstrate and showcase it?
But it's like the commitment tocarry that around is really
what senior leaders arecommitting to do.
Like, even though it'scumbersome and burdensome and
it's awkward to carry thesethings.
When you're communicatingvision, when you're
communicating culture, you haveto say it so often that it feels
like a burden.
It feels uncomfortable becausepeople forget they've got other
priorities in their life and sowhen it comes to communicating
(19:01):
like, you can't say somethingenough and, honestly, if you're
saying something great, peoplewill like oh yeah, I love it
when he says it becomes a mantraor whatever.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well, and the last thing I'll say on this topic is
it goes back to what we talkedbefore.
If you're an employee, chancesare your leader is not
intentionally withholdinginformation from you to make
your life difficult because theyjust don't like you.
Like, I had an employee onetime come to me and they were
probably three or four rungsdown on the org chart.
(19:31):
I don't know how you say that,right, but you know what I mean.
Like in the.
And they came to me and theyactually informed me as to why
they needed to know theinformation.
Right, like hey, here's howthis.
And I was so grateful because itwas a blind spot for me and
they weren't doing it in a waythat made me feel like you know,
I'm entitled to thisinformation.
It was more of like hey, justso you know this, how this, this
, how it impacts my world.
(19:52):
And it was very helpful for meto be like oh, okay, I'll cut
you in earlier next time on this, or I'll make sure the right
people talk to you or you're inthe right rooms, or whatever,
because now I'm educated.
So I would just say to theemployee don't, don't hold that
in and be frustrated.
Communicate to your leader thewhy and chances are your leader
will adjust.
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I love that.
You know I hit on this rightbefore we jumped into that.
There are things that justcan't tell you response, but one
was I want to pay you more, butI can't make the numbers work
right now.
The reason I rolled that intoit is because there are some
organizations that don't haveopen book policies where it's
like hey, I'm going to show youthe entire P and L, we're going
to look at all the items of youknow costs and expenses and
revenues, and a lot of employeeswouldn't know what to do if
(20:34):
they had those documents infront of them anyway.
So right.
So I should get a 10% bumpbecause of I'm looking at this
one bucket of a.
You know P and L.
I do think I had this businessprofessor in college and he said
this was his philosophy hiregreat people, pay him as much as
(20:55):
he possibly can and expect theworld from him.
And you know, I I'm surethere's some flaws in that, but
man, it's really simple.
It's like yeah, go find greatpeople, pay them as much as you
can and then make sure theexpectations are right.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
When you think back about on your hiring history.
Would you have hired lesspeople at a higher rate, or
would you have kept hiring morepeople at a more entry level
rate, or would you kept theratio about the same?
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, probably depends on the industry.
But when I was in purposenon-profit work, that's just a
development system.
It's rarely meant to go findall-stars because the resources
are slim, so you can't go findworld-class talent and pay them
a lot of money.
So you have to find people whoare passionate about the mission
, passionate about the vision,get them on where you can afford
(21:44):
them and develop them intogreat leaders.
But in other businesses,especially investing in real
estate, I don't have time to paya bunch of cheap architects and
engineers and contractors.
I've got to get jobs done quickbecause the time value of money
makes these deals reallyexpensive.
So I think it depends on theindustry, but absolutely when
all else fails, developingtalent is cheaper than buying
(22:07):
talent.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, no, I just was processing that.
I thought your answer is theright one, I believe.
I think depends on the industry.
I have a lot of empathy forthat question, though, because a
lot of my world and seniorleadership was in creative and
marketing space, which theywanted to keep me as far as I
spent the money.
They were keeping me away fromthe books, away from the numbers
(22:31):
, and so there was a lot oftimes where I was in senior
leadership but I was not pullingthe trigger on what my people
were getting paid.
I was an advocate for them and Iwanted to pay them as much as I
possibly could, but I wasn'tthe ultimate decider on that,
and so I just have empathy forthat question, and I think, as a
(22:55):
leader, if you're in that spot,the best you can do is just be
a strong advocate to whoever isholding the purse strings of
your employees, why they do whatthey do.
I had a great relationship withour CFO, and he wanted the best
for our team too, which wasawesome, but there was a lot of
times where I had to educate himon what this person even does,
(23:16):
what they're doing, why it's avalue, and once he got it, he
was able to understand.
He would be very generous, youknow.
But I think as a leader, ifyou're not the one actually
making the decision, you have tobe a strong advocate for your
team, why they deserve it, whythey need it, and if you can't,
then honestly that's a problem.
You need to figure that out.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I will go ahead no that was it, that was it.
I will say attention, I do livein.
Thank you.
When it comes to figuring outhow do we pay entry level people
.
Is my own story really impactsfor the good and for the bad?
It's like, man, when I startedI only got paid X.
When you're starting, you'regetting paid 50, 60, 100 percent
(23:55):
more than when I started.
Part of me is like okay, no,don't let your lid be anybody
else's lid.
That's the side I want to leanon.
More often than not it's likeno, don't let your experience
ruin someone else's entry levelexperience.
But I also know, man, struggleis valuable.
I'm not trying to make peoplestruggle, don't get me wrong.
(24:15):
I'm trying to say when you geteverything you want right when
you start, it does kill yourprey drive.
It does kill your motivationbecause it's like man, I just
got everything I wanted.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I feel you on that?
That could be probably a wholeanother episode, because I do
think I don't want to sound likethe old guy nowadays, but the
truth is it's harder to find.
When I was coming up, yourfirst gig sometimes was unpaid,
sometimes it was an internship,where you're working, you're
waiting tables and you'reinterning somewhere to get in
the door and like that's notreally the.
(24:46):
I mean, a lot of times peopleare expecting to get pretty
great job salaries coming aroundto college and, hey, more power
.
I would have done that if Icould have Right.
I didn't have that option.
But I agree with you.
I think we're bypassing somevalue in the early entry,
startup days where we get in andwe work hard because we believe
in something, we want to makeit better, and then we prove
ourselves and there's some valueand worth in that too, and and
(25:08):
100%.
But then I'm also with you too,like I want to.
I had some great young leaderson my team before and I was
really thrilled to compensatethem.
Yeah, what I, what I felt waswell like I was like man.
I never got this coming.
It's all like I was happy to dothat, but.
But they also had the workethic, you know, and that's
that's important.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I know it's on a compensation and salary episode.
I think what I want leaders toknow is part of the reason a
fraction X exist is this isn't aconversation you can have with
your staff.
Like hey, here's where I reallystruggle.
And trying to compensate you,like you can really miss, say
these things yeah, as you'retrying to process what's, what's
our compensation philosophy,right, rather than just, you
(25:46):
know, spewing ideas out, andyour team gets really twisted.
It's like, wait, you want me tobe compensated, well, but
you're worried that I'm notgoing to struggle.
Like you're not making anysense right now, yeah, but the
bottom line is, when you're inleadership and you've got these
decisions to make, they're justdifficult, right, really hard.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
That's part of what we do and we we do these these
off sites.
I mean part of it is dive itinto strategy, vision, goals and
does your staff still reflectwhere you want to go?
I mean, sometimes you've builtsomething and then culture
changes, or or even your visionchanges, something changes and
you're stuck with a staff thatis like wait a minute, this
doesn't reflect where we'regoing now and you need to audit.
(26:21):
But you're so close to itSometimes it's hard to see it.
You know, and so I've watchedyou do that, and in these
offsite environments where yougo and you dig in, then you make
everything in your organizationa line under hey.
This is where we want to go andeven as our team I always got
because I would restructureevery other week.
You know, of course I wouldn'trecommend that.
That was just me being bored,but I do think there's a time
(26:41):
and a place for a good like hey.
Does our current team whatthey're getting paid and
compensated?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
the structure of the team doesn't reflect where we're
trying to go with thisorganization, that's right and I
think maybe we'll just wrapwith this last item on here is
you know what's something youwish you could tell your staff?
And it says I became a managerbefore I knew how to lead, and I
think people feel the effectsof that sometimes, that you get
good at something, yeah, likehey, I'm really good at sales, I
was really good at sales fortwo years, and so now you're the
(27:08):
sales manager.
It's like well, man, I wasreally good at sales.
I'm not sure how to lead othersales people.
That's a different skill set.
So so frequently in business themistake is made.
It's called the Peter principle.
It's when you get promotedbeyond your competency and I
think there's healthy stretchinglike hey, we see something in
you, we think you can be thisand we're going to develop you
and train you on how to be agood manager, but that's, that's
(27:31):
the exception.
What's normal is for people youshowed up to work two weeks in
a row on time.
You're the boss now.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, it's like yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I don't know how to lead people, and so that that
happens a lot.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
That's.
I think that's really important, because if I was to answer
that question, I mean and I wasjust being gut level honest what
I wish my team knew is I'm notnearly as confident in my
leadership abilities as what Iproject.
Like there's so manyinsecurities that I have about
and I really do care about mypeople, and so it was hurtful
(28:05):
and personal to me when I feltlike I made a leadership mistake
because I was like oh man, butthen that just prayed back into
my insecurities.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
So what's the healthy level of communication where
you can be vulnerable and behonest but also be the right
amount of confident to lead ateam.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Well, I think I think it's just understanding that,
like you said earlier in theepisode, you admitting that you
don't know something is not asign of weakness.
You know, you inviting peoplein to the solution and inviting
them to the table when it'sappropriate and when it's right,
you know, I don't.
I think that actually winspeople over to say, hey, we want
to come alongside you.
I don't think, as leaders, wehave to to continue to hold up
(28:45):
this banner of we got all theanswers and we got.
You know, we're the smartest inthe room and where I mean my
last position.
When I left that role and thiswas not false humility Every
leader at the table with me onmy team was better at what they
did.
Like.
At that point, my job was togive them vision and to care for
(29:07):
them, like make sure they weredoing well and had what they
needed, and I hadn't you knowgoal like that stuff.
But it was not to tell them howto do their job.
They all knew how to do theirjob better than I could tell
them how to do it Right.
And you can either take that oneor two ways that can prey on
your insecurity, or you can say,man, this is awesome.
I've got some rock stars.
Let me set them free to lead.
So I don't know if that answersyour question, but I think
(29:28):
there's.
There's more value inauthenticity, like true
authenticity, not the put ontype of you know the buzzword
yeah exactly, but the true, likeI'm going to let my guard down
here, I'm going to be a humanwith you and I'm going to invite
you into the solution.
I actually think that does moreto build trust with your team
than it does to hurt yourleadership.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
That's great, Drew.
Thanks so much.
I think this is going to bereally helpful for leaders to
commit to communicating right,Be committed to casting vision,
creating culture, and give aplace for your team to grow and
develop.
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