July 16, 2024 • 17 mins
The words we say matter, but the way we say them matters just as much. Leadership is influence, and you waste your influence when you don't communicate well. On this episode Matt and Drew talk about how to have tough conversations and not wreck your influence with your team.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
so drew.
Yes, sir, we had a conversationabout um, a challenging dynamic
you've experienced, you know,and it's it's interesting as
entrepreneurs who own our ownbusinesses, but a lot of times
the clients we work with havesome, you know, control and
input into our lives and the waywe work, and so it just
reminded us of how importantgreat leadership is, and so,
obviously, we hear stories fromthe people we're coaching and we
(00:35):
know there's just challengingwhen it comes to challenges,
when it comes to managingemployees, and I think we've
briefly touched on this in thepast, but I wanted to spend a
whole episode talking about whyis it important that your tone
matters when you communicate asa leader?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, tone and just words matter in general, what
you say and how you say it.
I had a leader a long time ago,so no one's listening to this
podcast or can identify who itis.
But when I was younger, I wouldalways think think to myself
there's a hundred different waysyou could have said that to me,
but you said it in the way thatwas going to piss me off, like
intentionally.
That's what it felt like.
(01:11):
Well, it felt that way and Icome to find out as I've gotten
older.
I don't think so.
I think he's.
I think he actually was areally good leader.
He was strong, strategic um.
He just put zero thought intohow he communicated and how
things come across, and I workwith leaders who have said
similar things, similardirectives, um.
(01:32):
I have a client right now who isgreat at giving feedback and
directives, whatever in a waythat makes me feel it's very
collaborative and it haseverything to do with how he
says things, the tone in whichhe says things, and here's my
hunch.
The reason why I think this isgood for a podcast episode is I
think there's a lot of reallygood leaders out there that are
(01:55):
actually shooting themselves inthe foot because they're not
thinking through how they'recommunicating certain things
right, and so I think if leaderswill actually put some more
intentionality between behindlike tone and and what they're
saying, they're actually goingto get a lot better results out
of their, the people that areleading.
(02:16):
And I'm not even saying it'sabout coddling Okay, I'm not
even saying that Cause I likeI'm good with people being
direct, but people understandingthat there's a human on the
other side of what you're sayingthat cares about what they're
doing, those things.
And so you know, I just thinkthere's a lot of leaders out
there that could benefit fromyou know, taking some time to
(02:37):
think about how they're sayingit and why that matters.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So a lot of organizations you know we've
talked a little bit about thisdynamic where the founder is the
visionary.
You know they're the ones thatsaw a gap in the market.
They knew, man, my product isgoing to solve something in the
market that's not being solvedright now.
So they create the businessright.
A lot of times they're notthere to manage the business,
they're there to ideate newproducts or new departments.
(03:03):
And you know a lot of timesthat typical founder is the lead
creative in the organization.
They're the tip of the spear toget things out there and going
and they often outsource themanagement to someone else
because it's not a skill setthey have or their time is
better spent.
New revenue, new path, andoftentimes what happens is
there's a good cop and bad copdynamic that exists.
(03:24):
I'm curious Do you think thatdynamic is intentional?
Like, do visionary founders go?
I need a bad cop because I wantmy staff to like me, I want my
team to like me.
So do you think that good cop,bad cop thing is intentional or
is that just accidental, basedon personality types?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, I think it probably is both.
I think there's probablyscenarios where visionary point
leaders have the self-awarenessto say, hey, I need someone on
my team who can actually say no,who can actually hold the line,
who can manage.
I think that's probably reallyhealthy, um, and I think there's
probably other scenarios whereit's just, you know, it's still
saying opposites attract untilopposites attack.
(04:02):
You know, so I've seen that toowhere it's like someone comes
in at first as a honeymoonperiod, but over time because
there's not a self-awarenessaround.
We talked in the last episodeabout StrengthsFinder and
Enneagram.
They've not done that work andso at first you love this person
because they balance you andcompliment you.
But if you don't have your egoin check, then they start
challenging you in the wayyou're doing things and that
(04:24):
becomes super explosive at thehighest level, which obviously
trickles down through the wholeorganization.
Culture gets really wonky andthat's where and we've talked
about using the word toxic, butthat is where toxic
organizations, toxic cultureshappen is when there's division,
which is just.
I mean, simply put, that's twovisions at the top.
That's good.
Where it's the point, leaderwants to go one way, or even
they're going the same direction.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
About how they're going about doing it or the
speed they're going.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, or the and I've been guilty of this too leading
a team that's got multi-levelsof management, where the leader
of that team parachutes in andcuts the legs out from the other
managers on their team, Whetherit's through like just energy
personality vision, whatever,through like just energy
personality vision, whatever andthe leaders are saying, man, I
(05:07):
was leading them in a certainway and then you just bombed in
and kind of made a mess and nowI'm here to clean it up, Right,
and so yeah, so I think it'sprobably a little bit of both on
that.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
In your experience?
Is it that usually that founderthat is not careful with their
words?
Or is it usually that managertype that they've brought in to
manage things for them that endup being the one who are
careless with their words?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, and it could be both, maybe both.
I think that whether you're thepoint leader or the manager,
you have to fall in love withnot being the smartest person in
the room.
Like you actually have todecide.
Like I'm, actually I reallyenjoy not having the idea.
(05:53):
Or, or if I do have the idea, Ireally love it when someone
else discovers it and then I getto champion them and and push
them forward.
Right, it's good.
I think a lot of owner operators, especially founders, it was
their baby, it was their idea,and so it's really difficult for
that person.
Or I will say also, if someonecomes in as a manager or a high
(06:14):
level leader that needs to fixthings in the organization, yeah
, they're going to come in andthey're going to have a lot of
directives at first.
But I think the win is when youcan lead in such a way that
people feel the freedom, feelempowered to have great ideas,
and when they bring those ideasto the top, you don't turn
(06:35):
around and give that same ideaas a directive as if it was
yours.
So some people listen to thatand be like, well, that's crazy.
That would be instinctive tonot do that.
But what's crazy to me is howoften that happens, where a
leader can't let someone else inthe organization have the idea,
or they take the idea and theyturn around and make it a
directive, which just sucks allthe oxygen out of the room.
(06:56):
Yeah, because now you as aleader are like well, it went
from.
I'm excited about this thingthat I'm bringing to the table
instead of empowering me on it.
You stole it from me and nowyou demanded it of me, and now I
don't even want to do itanymore, because you took the
empowerment away.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, you extinguished the fire.
So this episode is personallyoffensive because I'm a person
who's every once in a while notso careful with my words, and so
it makes me think are leaderswho are sometimes careless with
their words and they're oftenmore offensive than they are
effective.
Is that downstream of apersonality type?
(07:31):
Obviously there's aself-awareness component to it.
But if we're thinking Enneagram, is there an eight, one, one,
three, five dynamic?
That really is that assertive.
I'm just gonna say it fast, I'mgonna say it wrong, but I'm
gonna get it done.
Well, I think it's on thespectrum of health too.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
So, like you're an enneagram eight, but you work
hard to stay healthy, yeah,right and so, and we fluctuate
all of them.
I'm not trying to set you up ona pedestal, but I've known you
for a long time and you stay ina healthy zone, a healthy spot.
So when you communicate it'sdirect and can be direct, but
few times have I experienced youbeing careless.
(08:07):
Now I will say you alsoappreciate and I think this gets
to you, know I'm picking on youbut the eights, the ones, the
five, the more black and white.
I think you respect andappreciate people who are candid
back with you, like you don'tlike the fluff, you don't BS me,
don't work me, don't give methe compliment sandwich.
I know what you're doing, justhit me with what you got to say,
(08:28):
um, and so I think those typeleaders like for me personally,
I enjoy that kind of leader Ilike, I like knowing that now I
also am a relational person andI'm an emotional person, right,
and so I want to know that thatleader cares about me, that sees
me, that, you know, cares aboutmy life, cares about what's
going on too, which I thinkcould be fatiguing to people who
(08:49):
just want to, you know, getdown to business, um.
But I think the shadow side ofall this this is where I fall
into is you can actually care somuch about what you're saying
and the words you're saying thatyou start to lack honesty and
you start to lack what's trueand what's genuine, and it can
(09:09):
easily turn into manipulation.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I heard somebody talk about it.
Just like this we all want tobe persuasive, right, and a
persuasive conversation is I'mgoing to use my influence to get
something done that benefitsboth of us, and where persuasion
trips into manipulation is I'mgoing to get something done that
really just benefits me.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, well, we talked StrengthsFinder, and Woo and
Communication are always in mytop five, which I'd always joke
and say Woo and Communicationequals manipulation.
When it's unhealthy because it'slike I cared about winning
other people over.
Yeah, it's really hard for meto and and I hope, hopefully I'm
getting better at this but ithistorically has been really
hard for me to tell peoplesomething I knew they weren't
(09:48):
going to like to hear, um, andso I would take such a long way
around getting to the point andoftentimes, when I knew what I
wanted, I just I, I wanted towin them in the process and you
know spoiler, that doesn't work.
It actually it actuallybackfires, right, most people
(10:08):
just they want clarity andhonesty in that you don't,
they're not mutually exclusive,like you can be kind and you can
also be clear and you can behonest and all those things, and
so I think there's definitely ashadow side of caring too much
about the words that you're,you've, you've lacked, um, you
know authenticity, to use abuzzword.
Um, most people just can takeit, treat them like you know
(10:31):
adults, and this is where I meannot to get too deep.
But this is where thecodependency comes in, where I
need you to like me.
There's something in me that'sinsecure, that I need this, and
so I'm going to try to controlyour thoughts, your feelings,
your responses.
You're like, as opposed tosaying no.
Matt's a big boy and I can,with purity of heart, say
something that's true and hopethat he receives it well, but I
(10:54):
don't have to control how.
How that's true and hope thathe receives it well, but I don't
have to control how.
How you respond is up to you.
Um, I feel like if I had knownthat earlier in leadership, it
would have saved me a lot ofheartache.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, Well and same.
So, as as a person who'sprobably the giver of that
careless words more often thanthe receiver, my heart always in
that is like hey, we've gotimportant things to do, like
what we're doing matters, thework we're doing matters, and
time is money.
Yeah, and it's like I got tosay this as fast as I can and
(11:23):
I'll clean it up later yes, thisis important, let's go do this.
And so I don't think at leastmy intentions ever been I'm
going to really make this personfeel bad about themselves Like
I would never say I'm trying tohurt someone's feelings in a
direct conversation.
I'm just going hey, thismatters, let's go do this right
now because it's reallyimportant.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Well, I think, even if you say that, like if you're
talking and so like.
So I think there's certaintimes in a company's life and
organization's life where you'reon the battlefield, yeah, and
that's not the time.
This is why, like Speed ofTrust was a book you talked
about, this is why you build astrong foundation in your
huddles and your one-on-ones andyour meetings, whatever, so
(12:02):
that in those crunch times youhave the rapport to be able to
say things and not have to thinkthrough how is this coming
across?
Because we're at battle rightnow.
If you're in the middle of abattle, you don't have time to
to, you just got to shout thisis what I need done.
Absolutely.
I can't give you my why rightnow.
I can't unpack for you thethought process behind it.
(12:22):
I need it done and I'll circleback.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
And if you have trust , you can do that Absolutely.
So a friend of ours made this,posted a Steve jobs video clip
from like probably I think it'slike the late 80s and I may have
got the time wrong, but he'sbasically whiteboarding with his
senior leadership team.
Did you see the clip?
Yeah, I did.
It's great.
They're kind of going back andforth about product deadline,
like hey, if we don't launchthis by this time of this year,
(12:45):
we're going to miss the collegeback to school sale essentially.
And we're not a company if wedon't hit deadlines.
If we don't hit deadlines, wedon't have a product.
If we don't have a product, wedon't make any sales.
If we don't make any sales, ourrevenue's done and our
company's done.
And he was very direct.
It was Steve Jobs in the video,but he wasn't unkind.
He disagreed with everybody inthe room about a timeline and as
(13:06):
a point leader he had thewhether it was the business
instinct or the business data,maybe a combination of both to
say man, my North star is thatthis has to get done right now.
And I thought, wow, like that'sa really masterclass level,
like kind of speech in awhiteboard and creative session
where he's like this has tohappen and I didn't feel his
like wrath.
I didn't think he was unkind oruncaring in that moment.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, no, and I didn't either, and I think that
takes a lot of courage and Ithink also, like I would, I
would be the first to admit thatI'm not steve jobs, right,
right, like steve jobs is agenius yeah, one in a million,
right one in a million.
so, like for me, I look, I lookat that clip and it goes back to
living in consultation because,yes, as a leader, there are
(13:47):
moments where you have to bethat person.
Your whole team is disagreeingwith something, yeah, but you
calmly, candid, candidly, butwith a lot of clarity.
He wasn't like emotion-packed,he basically timeline for them,
if they miss a deadline, howtheir company may not be in
business anymore, and I don'tfeel a whole lot of emotion in
it.
It was very practical, right.
And so he, as a founder, owner,operator, there's times we're
(14:12):
going to do that.
But again, it goes back to onething that we preach constantly
who else do you have, who do youhave on your team that you're
bouncing these things off of,that you're talking through,
that are helping you see thosethings, so that when you stand
up in front of your team you'renot on an island all by yourself
.
You've processed this with somepeople Because when I saw that,
(14:39):
I thought the same thing.
I mean, gosh, the courage itwould take to go against your
whole senior leadership team.
And I think I could do that ifI had my own team of of my own
board of directors.
If you will saying we processthis, this is the right way,
right way to go Well, let megive you the final word.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
If you're on the receiving end of a leader who's
careless with their words andyou feel offended or you feel
disrespected, what are somethings people in our
organization can do if they'realmost feeling the wrath of that
leader sometimes?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, I think I want to.
We always try to do this onthis podcast.
I want to give the leader thebenefit of the doubt.
I don't want to assume that theleader's a jerk.
I don't want to assume whatever.
I want to assume that maybethey have a personality type who
is just very direct and maybethey don't understand how
they're coming across.
So I would always encourage tohave a conversation, have a
(15:23):
follow-up conversation inprivate.
I wouldn't confront if it's ina room, but I would pull this
person aside and say hey, listen, here's how this came across to
me, here's how I received it.
Brene Brown has a great kind ofexercise line hey, this is the
story that I'm writing.
The story that I'm writing isthat you don't value me, and
that's the story that I'mwriting is.
You know, whatever it might be.
(15:43):
And this is where the leadingup principle comes in.
If this is a good leader,they're going to want help doing
this.
I was in a part of aconversation not too long ago
with I wasn't involved, but itwas a client and someone else in
the organization and this verything happened.
And the next day she went tohim and said and I kind of gave
(16:03):
her that advice.
I said why don't you go to himand say hey, here's a story that
I'm writing.
The story that I'm writing isthat you don't want me involved
with this, you don't value myexperience or whatever, and I
want to make sure that I'm, youknow, give you the benefit of
the doubt.
And he had a great conversation, he cleared it up.
I was like no, that's, that'snot all.
What I was actually trying toprotect you.
You've got so much on yourplate and you're whatever.
So it totally flipped thatnarrative Right.
(16:25):
And so I would say be boldenough to go in curious, not
with accusations, but withquestions.
And when you say this is a storyI'm writing, it puts the
ownership on you.
Hey, I'm writing this story,can you help me reshape, reframe
this narrative?
So I'm not carrying this around.
And the last thing I would sayis do the same thing on the
other side.
I've got a client right now whoand I'm a words of affirmation
(16:48):
guy already so like that's a bigdeal for me, but I've got a
client who does this really well, and I don't every time, but
often I'll say hey, man, Ireally respond well to that.
So thank you.
Like that's that, like when yousay I'm doing a good job, or
when you say, hey, you'releveling us up or you're doing
whatever, like I feed off thatand I care about doing a good
job for you.
(17:08):
And when you tell me thosethings, I take it to heart, I'm
really grateful for I just wantyou to know that.
So affirming some of thosethings too along the way is also
really helpful.
so drew.
Yes, sir, we had a conversationabout um, a challenging dynamic
you've experienced, you know,and it's it's interesting as
entrepreneurs who own our ownbusinesses, but a lot of times
the clients we work with havesome, you know, control and
input into our lives and the waywe work, and so it just
reminded us of how importantgreat leadership is, and so,
obviously, we hear stories fromthe people we're coaching and we
(00:35):
know there's just challengingwhen it comes to challenges,
when it comes to managingemployees, and I think we've
briefly touched on this in thepast, but I wanted to spend a
whole episode talking about whyis it important that your tone
matters when you communicate asa leader?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, tone and just words matter in general, what
you say and how you say it.
I had a leader a long time ago,so no one's listening to this
podcast or can identify who itis.
But when I was younger, I wouldalways think think to myself
there's a hundred different waysyou could have said that to me,
but you said it in the way thatwas going to piss me off, like
intentionally.
That's what it felt like.
(01:11):
Well, it felt that way and Icome to find out as I've gotten
older.
I don't think so.
I think he's.
I think he actually was areally good leader.
He was strong, strategic um.
He just put zero thought intohow he communicated and how
things come across, and I workwith leaders who have said
similar things, similardirectives, um.
(01:32):
I have a client right now who isgreat at giving feedback and
directives, whatever in a waythat makes me feel it's very
collaborative and it haseverything to do with how he
says things, the tone in whichhe says things, and here's my
hunch.
The reason why I think this isgood for a podcast episode is I
think there's a lot of reallygood leaders out there that are
(01:55):
actually shooting themselves inthe foot because they're not
thinking through how they'recommunicating certain things
right, and so I think if leaderswill actually put some more
intentionality between behindlike tone and and what they're
saying, they're actually goingto get a lot better results out
of their, the people that areleading.
(02:16):
And I'm not even saying it'sabout coddling Okay, I'm not
even saying that Cause I likeI'm good with people being
direct, but people understandingthat there's a human on the
other side of what you're sayingthat cares about what they're
doing, those things.
And so you know, I just thinkthere's a lot of leaders out
there that could benefit fromyou know, taking some time to
(02:37):
think about how they're sayingit and why that matters.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So a lot of organizations you know we've
talked a little bit about thisdynamic where the founder is the
visionary.
You know they're the ones thatsaw a gap in the market.
They knew, man, my product isgoing to solve something in the
market that's not being solvedright now.
So they create the businessright.
A lot of times they're notthere to manage the business,
they're there to ideate newproducts or new departments.
(03:03):
And you know a lot of timesthat typical founder is the lead
creative in the organization.
They're the tip of the spear toget things out there and going
and they often outsource themanagement to someone else
because it's not a skill setthey have or their time is
better spent.
New revenue, new path, andoftentimes what happens is
there's a good cop and bad copdynamic that exists.
(03:24):
I'm curious Do you think thatdynamic is intentional?
Like, do visionary founders go?
I need a bad cop because I wantmy staff to like me, I want my
team to like me.
So do you think that good cop,bad cop thing is intentional or
is that just accidental, basedon personality types?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, I think it probably is both.
I think there's probablyscenarios where visionary point
leaders have the self-awarenessto say, hey, I need someone on
my team who can actually say no,who can actually hold the line,
who can manage.
I think that's probably reallyhealthy, um, and I think there's
probably other scenarios whereit's just, you know, it's still
saying opposites attract untilopposites attack.
(04:02):
You know, so I've seen that toowhere it's like someone comes
in at first as a honeymoonperiod, but over time because
there's not a self-awarenessaround.
We talked in the last episodeabout StrengthsFinder and
Enneagram.
They've not done that work andso at first you love this person
because they balance you andcompliment you.
But if you don't have your egoin check, then they start
challenging you in the wayyou're doing things and that
(04:24):
becomes super explosive at thehighest level, which obviously
trickles down through the wholeorganization.
Culture gets really wonky andthat's where and we've talked
about using the word toxic, butthat is where toxic
organizations, toxic cultureshappen is when there's division,
which is just.
I mean, simply put, that's twovisions at the top.
That's good.
Where it's the point, leaderwants to go one way, or even
they're going the same direction.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
About how they're going about doing it or the
speed they're going.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, or the and I've been guilty of this too leading
a team that's got multi-levelsof management, where the leader
of that team parachutes in andcuts the legs out from the other
managers on their team, Whetherit's through like just energy
personality vision, whatever,through like just energy
personality vision, whatever andthe leaders are saying, man, I
(05:07):
was leading them in a certainway and then you just bombed in
and kind of made a mess and nowI'm here to clean it up, Right,
and so yeah, so I think it'sprobably a little bit of both on
that.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
In your experience?
Is it that usually that founderthat is not careful with their
words?
Or is it usually that managertype that they've brought in to
manage things for them that endup being the one who are
careless with their words?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, and it could be both, maybe both.
I think that whether you're thepoint leader or the manager,
you have to fall in love withnot being the smartest person in
the room.
Like you actually have todecide.
Like I'm, actually I reallyenjoy not having the idea.
(05:53):
Or, or if I do have the idea, Ireally love it when someone
else discovers it and then I getto champion them and and push
them forward.
Right, it's good.
I think a lot of owner operators, especially founders, it was
their baby, it was their idea,and so it's really difficult for
that person.
Or I will say also, if someonecomes in as a manager or a high
(06:14):
level leader that needs to fixthings in the organization, yeah
, they're going to come in andthey're going to have a lot of
directives at first.
But I think the win is when youcan lead in such a way that
people feel the freedom, feelempowered to have great ideas,
and when they bring those ideasto the top, you don't turn
(06:35):
around and give that same ideaas a directive as if it was
yours.
So some people listen to thatand be like, well, that's crazy.
That would be instinctive tonot do that.
But what's crazy to me is howoften that happens, where a
leader can't let someone else inthe organization have the idea,
or they take the idea and theyturn around and make it a
directive, which just sucks allthe oxygen out of the room.
(06:56):
Yeah, because now you as aleader are like well, it went
from.
I'm excited about this thingthat I'm bringing to the table
instead of empowering me on it.
You stole it from me and nowyou demanded it of me, and now I
don't even want to do itanymore, because you took the
empowerment away.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, you extinguished the fire.
So this episode is personallyoffensive because I'm a person
who's every once in a while notso careful with my words, and so
it makes me think are leaderswho are sometimes careless with
their words and they're oftenmore offensive than they are
effective.
Is that downstream of apersonality type?
(07:31):
Obviously there's aself-awareness component to it.
But if we're thinking Enneagram, is there an eight, one, one,
three, five dynamic?
That really is that assertive.
I'm just gonna say it fast, I'mgonna say it wrong, but I'm
gonna get it done.
Well, I think it's on thespectrum of health too.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
So, like you're an enneagram eight, but you work
hard to stay healthy, yeah,right and so, and we fluctuate
all of them.
I'm not trying to set you up ona pedestal, but I've known you
for a long time and you stay ina healthy zone, a healthy spot.
So when you communicate it'sdirect and can be direct, but
few times have I experienced youbeing careless.
(08:07):
Now I will say you alsoappreciate and I think this gets
to you, know I'm picking on youbut the eights, the ones, the
five, the more black and white.
I think you respect andappreciate people who are candid
back with you, like you don'tlike the fluff, you don't BS me,
don't work me, don't give methe compliment sandwich.
I know what you're doing, justhit me with what you got to say,
(08:28):
um, and so I think those typeleaders like for me personally,
I enjoy that kind of leader Ilike, I like knowing that now I
also am a relational person andI'm an emotional person, right,
and so I want to know that thatleader cares about me, that sees
me, that, you know, cares aboutmy life, cares about what's
going on too, which I thinkcould be fatiguing to people who
(08:49):
just want to, you know, getdown to business, um.
But I think the shadow side ofall this this is where I fall
into is you can actually care somuch about what you're saying
and the words you're saying thatyou start to lack honesty and
you start to lack what's trueand what's genuine, and it can
(09:09):
easily turn into manipulation.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I heard somebody talk about it.
Just like this we all want tobe persuasive, right, and a
persuasive conversation is I'mgoing to use my influence to get
something done that benefitsboth of us, and where persuasion
trips into manipulation is I'mgoing to get something done that
really just benefits me.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, well, we talked StrengthsFinder, and Woo and
Communication are always in mytop five, which I'd always joke
and say Woo and Communicationequals manipulation.
When it's unhealthy because it'slike I cared about winning
other people over.
Yeah, it's really hard for meto and and I hope, hopefully I'm
getting better at this but ithistorically has been really
hard for me to tell peoplesomething I knew they weren't
(09:48):
going to like to hear, um, andso I would take such a long way
around getting to the point andoftentimes, when I knew what I
wanted, I just I, I wanted towin them in the process and you
know spoiler, that doesn't work.
It actually it actuallybackfires, right, most people
(10:08):
just they want clarity andhonesty in that you don't,
they're not mutually exclusive,like you can be kind and you can
also be clear and you can behonest and all those things, and
so I think there's definitely ashadow side of caring too much
about the words that you're,you've, you've lacked, um, you
know authenticity, to use abuzzword.
Um, most people just can takeit, treat them like you know
(10:31):
adults, and this is where I meannot to get too deep.
But this is where thecodependency comes in, where I
need you to like me.
There's something in me that'sinsecure, that I need this, and
so I'm going to try to controlyour thoughts, your feelings,
your responses.
You're like, as opposed tosaying no.
Matt's a big boy and I can,with purity of heart, say
something that's true and hopethat he receives it well, but I
(10:54):
don't have to control how.
How that's true and hope thathe receives it well, but I don't
have to control how.
How you respond is up to you.
Um, I feel like if I had knownthat earlier in leadership, it
would have saved me a lot ofheartache.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, Well and same.
So, as as a person who'sprobably the giver of that
careless words more often thanthe receiver, my heart always in
that is like hey, we've gotimportant things to do, like
what we're doing matters, thework we're doing matters, and
time is money.
Yeah, and it's like I got tosay this as fast as I can and
(11:23):
I'll clean it up later yes, thisis important, let's go do this.
And so I don't think at leastmy intentions ever been I'm
going to really make this personfeel bad about themselves Like
I would never say I'm trying tohurt someone's feelings in a
direct conversation.
I'm just going hey, thismatters, let's go do this right
now because it's reallyimportant.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Well, I think, even if you say that, like if you're
talking and so like.
So I think there's certaintimes in a company's life and
organization's life where you'reon the battlefield, yeah, and
that's not the time.
This is why, like Speed ofTrust was a book you talked
about, this is why you build astrong foundation in your
huddles and your one-on-ones andyour meetings, whatever, so
(12:02):
that in those crunch times youhave the rapport to be able to
say things and not have to thinkthrough how is this coming
across?
Because we're at battle rightnow.
If you're in the middle of abattle, you don't have time to
to, you just got to shout thisis what I need done.
Absolutely.
I can't give you my why rightnow.
I can't unpack for you thethought process behind it.
(12:22):
I need it done and I'll circleback.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
And if you have trust , you can do that Absolutely.
So a friend of ours made this,posted a Steve jobs video clip
from like probably I think it'slike the late 80s and I may have
got the time wrong, but he'sbasically whiteboarding with his
senior leadership team.
Did you see the clip?
Yeah, I did.
It's great.
They're kind of going back andforth about product deadline,
like hey, if we don't launchthis by this time of this year,
(12:45):
we're going to miss the collegeback to school sale essentially.
And we're not a company if wedon't hit deadlines.
If we don't hit deadlines, wedon't have a product.
If we don't have a product, wedon't make any sales.
If we don't make any sales, ourrevenue's done and our
company's done.
And he was very direct.
It was Steve Jobs in the video,but he wasn't unkind.
He disagreed with everybody inthe room about a timeline and as
(13:06):
a point leader he had thewhether it was the business
instinct or the business data,maybe a combination of both to
say man, my North star is thatthis has to get done right now.
And I thought, wow, like that'sa really masterclass level,
like kind of speech in awhiteboard and creative session
where he's like this has tohappen and I didn't feel his
like wrath.
I didn't think he was unkind oruncaring in that moment.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, no, and I didn't either, and I think that
takes a lot of courage and Ithink also, like I would, I
would be the first to admit thatI'm not steve jobs, right,
right, like steve jobs is agenius yeah, one in a million,
right one in a million.
so, like for me, I look, I lookat that clip and it goes back to
living in consultation because,yes, as a leader, there are
(13:47):
moments where you have to bethat person.
Your whole team is disagreeingwith something, yeah, but you
calmly, candid, candidly, butwith a lot of clarity.
He wasn't like emotion-packed,he basically timeline for them,
if they miss a deadline, howtheir company may not be in
business anymore, and I don'tfeel a whole lot of emotion in
it.
It was very practical, right.
And so he, as a founder, owner,operator, there's times we're
(14:12):
going to do that.
But again, it goes back to onething that we preach constantly
who else do you have, who do youhave on your team that you're
bouncing these things off of,that you're talking through,
that are helping you see thosethings, so that when you stand
up in front of your team you'renot on an island all by yourself
.
You've processed this with somepeople Because when I saw that,
(14:39):
I thought the same thing.
I mean, gosh, the courage itwould take to go against your
whole senior leadership team.
And I think I could do that ifI had my own team of of my own
board of directors.
If you will saying we processthis, this is the right way,
right way to go Well, let megive you the final word.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
If you're on the receiving end of a leader who's
careless with their words andyou feel offended or you feel
disrespected, what are somethings people in our
organization can do if they'realmost feeling the wrath of that
leader sometimes?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, I think I want to.
We always try to do this onthis podcast.
I want to give the leader thebenefit of the doubt.
I don't want to assume that theleader's a jerk.
I don't want to assume whatever.
I want to assume that maybethey have a personality type who
is just very direct and maybethey don't understand how
they're coming across.
So I would always encourage tohave a conversation, have a
(15:23):
follow-up conversation inprivate.
I wouldn't confront if it's ina room, but I would pull this
person aside and say hey, listen, here's how this came across to
me, here's how I received it.
Brene Brown has a great kind ofexercise line hey, this is the
story that I'm writing.
The story that I'm writing isthat you don't value me, and
that's the story that I'mwriting is.
You know, whatever it might be.
(15:43):
And this is where the leadingup principle comes in.
If this is a good leader,they're going to want help doing
this.
I was in a part of aconversation not too long ago
with I wasn't involved, but itwas a client and someone else in
the organization and this verything happened.
And the next day she went tohim and said and I kind of gave
(16:03):
her that advice.
I said why don't you go to himand say hey, here's a story that
I'm writing.
The story that I'm writing isthat you don't want me involved
with this, you don't value myexperience or whatever, and I
want to make sure that I'm, youknow, give you the benefit of
the doubt.
And he had a great conversation, he cleared it up.
I was like no, that's, that'snot all.
What I was actually trying toprotect you.
You've got so much on yourplate and you're whatever.
So it totally flipped thatnarrative Right.
(16:25):
And so I would say be boldenough to go in curious, not
with accusations, but withquestions.
And when you say this is a storyI'm writing, it puts the
ownership on you.
Hey, I'm writing this story,can you help me reshape, reframe
this narrative?
So I'm not carrying this around.
And the last thing I would sayis do the same thing on the
other side.
I've got a client right now whoand I'm a words of affirmation
(16:48):
guy already so like that's a bigdeal for me, but I've got a
client who does this really well, and I don't every time, but
often I'll say hey, man, Ireally respond well to that.
So thank you.
Like that's that, like when yousay I'm doing a good job, or
when you say, hey, you'releveling us up or you're doing
whatever, like I feed off thatand I care about doing a good
job for you.
(17:08):
And when you tell me thosethings, I take it to heart, I'm
really grateful for I just wantyou to know that.
So affirming some of thosethings too along the way is also
really helpful.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.