April 30, 2024 • 19 mins
As a follow up to the previous episode on hiring , Matt & Drew bring their experience and practical takes on the things leaders need to know when it's time to let an employee go.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
so even though hiring is daunting sometimes, it is an
optimistic sign of yourbusiness.
If you get to hire people right, it's like man, we're moving
forward, we've got some cashflow, we can pay people yeah, I
always love.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I mean to me that was exciting.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Yeah, I love to hire we, we had initially planned to
do hiring and firing as a onepart episode, but it went a
little longer just talking aboutthe hiring side of things.
So I was like, okay, now I haveto do the Debbie Downer episode
of let's talk about firingpeople.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah yeah, I'm not good at that, by the way.
No Well, I'm a people pleaser,and so I got a lot of ego
wrapped up in the firing.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Do you want them to like you when they leave?
Is that what it does?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, probably I want them to.
Like I really want to make itwork.
I'm also.
I internalize it's always myfault.
Yeah, like I'm not.
Even when I fire someone, I'mlike man, if I'd have led better
, if I'd have done better, ifI'd have set them up Like I
never, I always look at me first.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I would say that's healthier than not.
Healthy, though, really, ohyeah absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, I mean, that's that's where I start, but, yeah,
it's so tough because I don'tI've in the past, I'm not so
much this way now, but I don'twant to be at odds with anybody
in the world and the fact thatI'd have to go in and and,
honestly, that's a there's ahigh responsibility when it,
like it, really impactssomeone's, it does life, and I
have been fired poorly before,yeah, and that has really shaped
(01:30):
me.
I've been fired well before, tooright, but, um, there's been
times and so you have tocaretake these moments because
they can be in the top 10defining moments in someone's
life which is why I hate, hatedoing it, you know, because I'm
like, oh, this is going to suck,you know, and so so I think we
go back to something we said onthe last episode context matters
(01:51):
.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
You know, if you're letting a kid go from a fast
food restaurant because he hasno availability to schedule,
that may not impact him the sameway it would be.
Hey, I've been at this companyfor 10 years.
I thought I was a part of theteam.
What happened?
So context really matters whenit comes to fire.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
You may not lead an emotional and relational
business.
It might just be like you'renot doing the job well and we
need to move on.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
It's an easy cut so.
I'm not not everyone has got it.
Yeah, that's right.
So a couple of things I alwaysthink about.
So my wife is always in theback of my head when I think
about firing, because she's doneher fair share of it.
You want Ashley in the room whenyou're getting fired and if you
knew her, you wouldn't think,oh, ashley's the hatchet woman,
like if she shows up in youroffice you're getting fired and
(02:30):
she's not.
But um, she has this incredible, um graceful, um clear and kind
way to let someone know when atransition is coming.
And she knows because she's gotHR training that she had around
the bases.
You know, make sure there'sdocumentation, make sure there's
been as many conversations onthe front end before it gets to
that decision, to do everythingyou can to make sure someone's
not blindsided by it.
But at the end of the day we'vetalked about this Almost
(02:53):
everybody that gets fired isblindsided by it.
What's behind that?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
It's self-aware.
I mean, I've never firedanybody who was like you know.
I saw that coming and I totallyagree with this decision.
No, it's never that.
And it doesn't matter how manyimprovement plans you do and how
many times you document andwritten it up or whatever.
There's mostly a self-awarenessissue or you know this can get
overused, but sometimes it'sit's.
(03:18):
It's just not the right fit,yeah, and I know that that can
be a scapegoat line or like hey,it's just not, but that's that
can be true.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
We'll define that so obviously.
As a person who leads anorganization, you know what fits
in your organization.
But an employee sometimesdoesn't understand what that
word means.
So if you did have time and youweren't so emotional in a
moment of letting somebody go,what does it mean to fit an
organization?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Well, this is something you talk about a lot.
It's just it's values you goback to like.
Okay, if, first of all, if Idon't have defined cultural
values, then it's going to bereally tough to know in the
hiring if this person is goingto be a good fit or not.
But a lot of times it goes backto even things like you know,
we I was an organization onetime where I put together a
health code, and the reason wedid this for this team was
(04:01):
because I needed them tounderstand certain things, and
one of them is this is acreative team.
They need to understand thatwe're going to be pretty fast
moving.
So if you want to make movies,this is not the place for you.
But if you want to be in anewsroom and you like exciting,
cranking stuff out, moving, fat,urgent, you're going to love it
here, right?
So that's not a right or wrong,that's just a personality type.
(04:24):
So I might say there's no way.
This gives me too much anxiety,and then other people thrive in
the run and gun.
So if you don't define those,those cultural values, even on
the at the team level, like youwant them to always submit to
the greater organizationalvalues, of course you don't have
competing values at all, butyou know that's a big part of it
.
What do you have in mind?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Well, I mean some of the tools that you have to have
at your disposal when you'rewalking.
A process like this is likewhat are your company's
guidelines for severance andtransition?
So always go back to thisphrase it might've been Gary Vee
, it may not have been thataverage performance gets a
generous severance.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
It's like look, it's just not cutting it.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
We're not just going to cut you cold, but we're going
to move you out of here prettyquick.
We're going to do that withthis.
Say that again Averageperformance gets a generous
severance.
Average performance gets agenerous severance.
It's like, hey, we're ahigh-performance organization.
It's just not meeting thedemands of what we have here, so
we're going to move on.
Here's a little stipend to getyou to your next.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So what are some tips ?
Like, say there's someone likeme out there, that's just like
man, you know, and I would tendto hold onto someone way too
long, you know, just because Idon't want to give the bad news.
And also it's it's, you know,it's a blow to a leader's ego
because they're like man.
This didn't work, you know.
I've worked for leaders beforethat you could almost do
anything and not get fired,because they just held real
precious this idea of no oneever leaves this team.
(05:49):
And that's back in the daywhere and thankfully, most
organizations have moved pastthis, but that's back in the day
where family was your family.
Well, you can't fire someone inyour family, you know, which I
have done before by the way butyou know.
So what are some things, asyou're approaching these
conversations, that are helpful?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, I think if a leader cares, that's like where
I have to start.
I've never not lost sleep.
I've always lost sleep over atransition.
I can still remember the firsttime I did.
It was my first like job I wasmanaging a music store and had
to let somebody go forperformance.
And nice guy, creative guy, hada family, had kids and it just
(06:29):
it just wasn't working out.
You know, we had set goals thatdidn't happen.
I still think about, like, howdisappointed he was to lose his
job, how much weight I carried,thinking man, this guy's gonna
have to figure out a way toprovide for his family, like,
and I think if leadersunderstand the weight of that
decision, yeah, it makes all thenext steps a lot easier and it
should impact your hiring.
(06:50):
Hey, I'm not going to hireanybody that I couldn't fire,
like just knowing that's areality for anybody you put on
your team.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Well, and it makes it in the hiring process whether
you do a 30, 60, 90 dayevaluation.
You got to take that serious,like a lot of people put that in
there, but it's like the personneeds to know that they really
do.
We're going to look at this in30 days.
If it's not the right fit, we'regoing to move like either of us
Right and they need to knowlike this is not just a
formality, but we're reallygoing to take these evaluation
periods, if that's somethingyour organization does.
(07:19):
But, to your credit, you calledme not that long ago after one
of those hard meetings.
It was just like hey, I justneed to process this out loud.
This just happened and I lovethat because it does show that
you care for the person For sure, and I think a lot of times the
care for the person can lead towhat I would call like a
leadership codependency, whichis I'm trying to manage If it's
(07:44):
overboard.
I'm trying to manage yourfeelings, your emotions, your
responses, as opposed to justsaying listen, I'm going to you
wouldn't say this out loud butI'm going to treat you like an
adult, like I'm going to treatyou like hey and I don't have to
overly try to sympathize orempathize.
I think to your point about howashley does these conversations
(08:05):
like I learned from a leader along time ago when you go in and
have a hard conversation, youget to the point quick, that's
right.
You don't start in a meetingand you you know, hey, how's
your weekend.
Whatever you bring them in andyou say this is going to be a
difficult conversation.
So I'm going to cut to thechase and then you get right to
it.
It's clinical, it's surgical,right and you can communicate.
(08:26):
If you, if you're the, if youfeel this way, if it's true, hey
, this is.
This is really tough for me andI'm sad about this and I really
now, whether or not theybelieve you or buy it or
whatever, at that point that'son them.
Yeah, like you can still showcompassion and you can hold both
parts and say listen, I thinkthis is the right decision and
I'm also I'm really sad about itand I'm really sorry this is
(08:48):
happening.
Both can be true and genuine,and that person sitting across
for you might say you're full ofcrap.
Yeah, you know, I'm mad, I'mpissed, I hate whatever.
And that's when you have tojust allow people to have their
own feelings or process whatever.
Probably the thing that's keptme from having those decisions
is I'm trying to manage thatother person's emotions Right,
and that's really disrespectfulto that person?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, and again, we keep saying this context really
matters.
So if you're working incorporate America, a lot of
times a C-suite, a board ofdirectors, is looking at trends.
They get to fourth quarter andgo we need to make sure our
stock prices are right.
If we're not going to catch upon the revenue and sales side of
things, we're going to cutcosts.
That means we got to cut 10% ofour headcount and I think if
(09:30):
you are in that world, you justhave to understand that's the
risk you're taking, that you'reA.
You have to fire people likethat sometimes.
And if you're an employee, hey,I could get fired just as a
result of a financial metric.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, some companies and I don't know if they still
do this, but I know Facebook,they used to you basically write
your job description for sixmonths.
Hey, here's what I'm going todo for the organization.
I don't know at what level Ithink this was a little higher
up but after six months, if youdid your job, even if you did it
really well, hey, thanks, youdid what you said.
Unless you can come up withokay, here's what.
(10:01):
The next six months, the nextyear, whatever.
There was just thisunderstanding of, like man,
we're going to treat you well,we're going to pay you well,
we're going to expect greatthings from you and then, once
it's accomplished, then ourrelationship is done, unless
there's something else you comeup with.
Now, some people may hate that,right, that's just one way of
doing things.
But to your point, there's alot of clarity of like, hey,
(10:21):
this is a six-month gig.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Unless I've got something, I can continue to add
value to the organization, andso for a lot of the clients that
we coach, I'd say small tomid-sized businesses you're
talking about maybe five to 50employees in that range.
Those are the cultures whereit's really difficult, cause,
like you know, if you work at aAmeriCorps mega company and you
know, and it's a giant officebuilding filled with people, if
(10:44):
someone's not in their desk thenext day, you're like, okay,
moving on, like if you've got aroom full of 10 people working
on something and all of a suddensomebody's not there anymore,
like you feel it right.
That's the emotional thingthere that person's not here
anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
What happened?
Yeah, and that that's somethingthat we help leaders with.
When we're working with a, withan organization, you know we
help with the whole process ofevaluating like hey, is this
person?
Cause sometimes a leader canget emotional about a person and
you're like, wait a minute,there may be something on the
leader's side that they need todo.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Um, go ahead.
I gave advice, literally, um,very recently I just said hey to
this leader if you sold yourcompany today and a new leader
took over, right, and they gotto run the business, yeah, and
they didn't have the emotionalconnections, they didn't know
your employees' stories, theydidn't know, you know, about
their family situations, wouldthey keep X, y or Z employees?
Like no, they probably wouldn't.
I was like, well, that's what agood leader would do is make
(11:35):
that decision now.
Yeah, wow.
And so I think to go back tosome more practical stuff
instead of some of the morephilosophical stuff is um,
there's a couple of reasonspeople have to transition.
One is that financial situationLike we talked about hey, we've
got to meet this financialdeadline, we've got to get more
profitable, so we're going tolose 10% of our employees.
We're going to move forward.
That's pretty unavoidable.
(12:04):
Those are tough.
But if it is a performance issue, like this person's leaning
away, they're not engaged, theirheart's not in it, they're not
performing or they're violatingour values, we have to check on
that situation.
So it requires management and alot of leaders don't like to
manage, and I think one of themost important tools a leader
has at their disposal is aone-on-one meeting, and so few
leaders do it Really.
Yeah, I think people avoid it.
Like the plague is like, oh,just can you just go do your job
, let me know when you got aproblem.
And I think the most importantdevelopment tool a leader has is
(12:26):
a one-on-one meeting and youcheck in engagement, you check
relational, you check umperformance, all that stuff.
You can really understand whatemployee you know is leaning in
or leaning away.
But my thing is like firing isnot the first step, like that is
not first base.
Right, we're going to go, hey,what's going on personally, like
, is there, is there somethingat home?
Is somebody sick?
Are you sick?
Maybe not ask those questionsspecifically, but try to
(12:47):
understand.
Is there a reason performancehas dipped?
Okay, no, it's none of thosethings.
Um, are you not as satisfied um, and engaged in the job because
of you know something we'redoing?
You try to understand that andthen you know, after you take a
couple of steps to try tounderstand what's really going
on, because at some point youhired this person and said, hey,
this person would be a greatfit on the team, we need them on
our team, let's do this.
And now you're going.
(13:07):
Oh, they don't fit anymore.
We'll try to understand whythat's the case.
Do your best, and then you knowyou kind.
Performance improvement step ofthe process where you've
documented these conversations.
You're making sure from like alegal and HR standpoint, you've
done all the right steps and Idon't know the percentage.
(13:30):
I think it's super low.
I think I've read somewhere,like in HR today or something
like that, that 90% of peopleput on a performance improvement
plan Don't come back Like it isthe kiss of death.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well, I was going to ask you, like why do that, Right
?
What's the point in doing that?
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Why do you think I don't know?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Well, I think it gives the person the opportunity
to adjust.
Yeah, because what you don'twant and we've said this before
Every person we've ever firedalways blindsided, even with an
improvement plan.
It's just like they're notshowing up and intentionally
trying to be bad at their jobmost of the time Most people are
(14:07):
doing the best they can.
It's just not working, forwhatever reason, and I don't
know.
I think you really shouldevaluate in your organization.
I'm hoping.
I guess my hope would be ifyou're having consistent
one-on-ones, yeah, and thoseone-on-ones are effective and
there's clear communication,then an improvement plan should
be happening all along, microadjustments, tweaking all along
(14:29):
like it should just be.
Like hey, this isn't working tome.
The improvement plan in someways you're exactly right that's
just the warning shot of likehey, you're about to get fired,
right, right, because mostpeople can't adjust if you've
been having those conversations.
I think that improvement plansa lot of times can be used by
organizations who are notwilling to have the one-on-ones
and the ongoing conversationsfor adjustment.
So they have this formalprocess, they put an improvement
(14:52):
plan in place.
That is what's kind ofblindsiding to the employee.
And now you've got thisdisgruntled employee who knows
they're on an improvement planand they're not getting any
better because you've alreadygiven a pattern of not having
hard conversations along the way.
Right, and so I'm not sayingI'm against improvement plans,
but maybe I am.
I don't know, um, but I justthink don't use an improvement
(15:15):
plan in place of what you weresaying consistent one-on-ones,
where you're giving clarity andfeedback and and chances are,
you're going to know a lotsooner and that employee is
going to know a lot sooner.
This isn't working If thoseconversations are happening
every single week.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
And here's probably the number one.
Tell here's probably the numberone.
Tell that firing is moreemotional than it needs to be.
Oftentimes, when you transitiona low performer, the rest of
your team goes.
Why did it take you so long todo that?
Right, Because they saw itright.
(15:50):
Everybody on the team's likeman.
This person is not engaging,they're not responding in
communication.
They're constantly behind indeadlines, Like I'm working my
butt off and I'm here.
They're not working their buttoff and they're still here.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
It's so demotivating A lot of times your team feels
that a lot before you do.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
As a leader, yeah.
And so you're like gosh, Idon't want to do this, I don't
want to fire somebody, I have tohire somebody.
It's going to take forever, andso you delay what's inevitable,
and sometimes you can lose theteam in that process because
they're so frustrated thatyou're not getting rid of the
dead weight.
That's a great point.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
I one of the hardest fires I've ever made.
Um, I had people come up to meafterwards and thank me and say,
hey, we're really sad that thishappened.
It actually if.
If you fire someone when it'sright right, we're not talking
about the person just going outand, just you know, hacking
people just because they'rebored, but when it's the right
decision, it'll actually buildtrust with your team and your
(16:46):
peers.
They'll come to you and say,hey, listen, we know that was a
tough decision.
And if you're open and honestas a leader, they're going to
tell like hey, you didn't makethat.
flippantly Like you felt it tooand they're going to come and
say, hey, we, we see that youreally struggle with that
decision and I actually I was alearning lesson.
I actually had a couple ofpeople that were close to this
person come to me and say, hey,I see that that was a really
(17:07):
hard call, but I respect you formaking that back, making that
decision.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
That's so good.
Maybe we wrap with this thisidea of codependence that are um
self-worth or value comes fromthe relationship you have with
the person you're firing, and Ithink it's Jim Collins talks
about, you know, freeing peopleto go to their next like
sometimes, yes, it could be oneof those like significant top 10
significant moments in theirlife that I got fired.
But hopefully on the other sideof that is opportunity,
(17:33):
reinvention, invigorating.
Like no one likes to get kickedin the teeth, right, no one
wants to be like I got fired, Ifailed, but for a lot of people
that's the catalyst to get themto what is next.
And if you have confidence inwhether it's in God or in the
universe or something, they cango on and succeed somewhere else
and it may be the motivationthey need to succeed at the next
(17:53):
thing.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
So should I be expecting thank you cards from
everyone who's doing well rightnow that I fired, or yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:59):
just let's put the address on the podcast, drew
Powell, po Box.
You're welcome everyone, one,two, three, four.
But why is it that, when we aremore emotionally engaged in
these firings than we need to be, that we can't see how clear
that is, that we can't help themget to their next?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Well, I think most of us as leaders, if we're being
honest, we struggle with control, right.
That's almost the shadow sideof leadership.
In some ways, like most greatleaders, they want to be in the
driver's seat, they want to leadright.
So it's like I'm not sayingthat's always a bad thing.
But the shadow side is I cantend to be a control guy and I
(18:38):
want to control people's future,their destiny, how they, how
they respond.
I want to control, you know, Iwant you know, I want to feel
good by how they respond.
I want to control all thosethings, which is, ultimately,
it's codependence, right, and soin that relationship.
So I think having to trust andsay I'm going to make the right
decision and I don't have to bein control of what's next is
(18:59):
really tough for me and for mostleaders.
But I think that's where it goesback to, where you say you can,
you can surrender and say I'mgoing to make the right next
decision.
I don't know what this is goingto mean for this person, but
I'm going to trust, at the endof the day, that the universe is
kind, like and that's a bigphilosophical shift for a lot of
people like is the universekind is god, kind are good
(19:21):
things in store for me.
Like those things and I'm nottalking like the you know
evangelical, like your best isyet to come, bs.
I'm talking about like, hey,things work out for those who
work hard and you know, and dothe right thing and treat people
well, like the universe is akind place and so if you have
that worldview, you cansurrender and not have to be in
(19:41):
control of someone's future.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
That's so good.
Thanks for leaving us on ahopeful, optimistic note.
so even though hiring is daunting sometimes, it is an
optimistic sign of yourbusiness.
If you get to hire people right, it's like man, we're moving
forward, we've got some cashflow, we can pay people yeah, I
always love.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I mean to me that was exciting.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Yeah, I love to hire we, we had initially planned to
do hiring and firing as a onepart episode, but it went a
little longer just talking aboutthe hiring side of things.
So I was like, okay, now I haveto do the Debbie Downer episode
of let's talk about firingpeople.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah yeah, I'm not good at that, by the way.
No Well, I'm a people pleaser,and so I got a lot of ego
wrapped up in the firing.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Do you want them to like you when they leave?
Is that what it does?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, probably I want them to.
Like I really want to make itwork.
I'm also.
I internalize it's always myfault.
Yeah, like I'm not.
Even when I fire someone, I'mlike man, if I'd have led better
, if I'd have done better, ifI'd have set them up Like I
never, I always look at me first.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I would say that's healthier than not.
Healthy, though, really, ohyeah absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, I mean, that's that's where I start, but, yeah,
it's so tough because I don'tI've in the past, I'm not so
much this way now, but I don'twant to be at odds with anybody
in the world and the fact thatI'd have to go in and and,
honestly, that's a there's ahigh responsibility when it,
like it, really impactssomeone's, it does life, and I
have been fired poorly before,yeah, and that has really shaped
(01:30):
me.
I've been fired well before, tooright, but, um, there's been
times and so you have tocaretake these moments because
they can be in the top 10defining moments in someone's
life which is why I hate, hatedoing it, you know, because I'm
like, oh, this is going to suck,you know, and so so I think we
go back to something we said onthe last episode context matters
(01:51):
.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
You know, if you're letting a kid go from a fast
food restaurant because he hasno availability to schedule,
that may not impact him the sameway it would be.
Hey, I've been at this companyfor 10 years.
I thought I was a part of theteam.
What happened?
So context really matters whenit comes to fire.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
You may not lead an emotional and relational
business.
It might just be like you'renot doing the job well and we
need to move on.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
It's an easy cut so.
I'm not not everyone has got it.
Yeah, that's right.
So a couple of things I alwaysthink about.
So my wife is always in theback of my head when I think
about firing, because she's doneher fair share of it.
You want Ashley in the room whenyou're getting fired and if you
knew her, you wouldn't think,oh, ashley's the hatchet woman,
like if she shows up in youroffice you're getting fired and
(02:30):
she's not.
But um, she has this incredible, um graceful, um clear and kind
way to let someone know when atransition is coming.
And she knows because she's gotHR training that she had around
the bases.
You know, make sure there'sdocumentation, make sure there's
been as many conversations onthe front end before it gets to
that decision, to do everythingyou can to make sure someone's
not blindsided by it.
But at the end of the day we'vetalked about this Almost
(02:53):
everybody that gets fired isblindsided by it.
What's behind that?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
It's self-aware.
I mean, I've never firedanybody who was like you know.
I saw that coming and I totallyagree with this decision.
No, it's never that.
And it doesn't matter how manyimprovement plans you do and how
many times you document andwritten it up or whatever.
There's mostly a self-awarenessissue or you know this can get
overused, but sometimes it'sit's.
(03:18):
It's just not the right fit,yeah, and I know that that can
be a scapegoat line or like hey,it's just not, but that's that
can be true.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
We'll define that so obviously.
As a person who leads anorganization, you know what fits
in your organization.
But an employee sometimesdoesn't understand what that
word means.
So if you did have time and youweren't so emotional in a
moment of letting somebody go,what does it mean to fit an
organization?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Well, this is something you talk about a lot.
It's just it's values you goback to like.
Okay, if, first of all, if Idon't have defined cultural
values, then it's going to bereally tough to know in the
hiring if this person is goingto be a good fit or not.
But a lot of times it goes backto even things like you know,
we I was an organization onetime where I put together a
health code, and the reason wedid this for this team was
(04:01):
because I needed them tounderstand certain things, and
one of them is this is acreative team.
They need to understand thatwe're going to be pretty fast
moving.
So if you want to make movies,this is not the place for you.
But if you want to be in anewsroom and you like exciting,
cranking stuff out, moving, fat,urgent, you're going to love it
here, right?
So that's not a right or wrong,that's just a personality type.
(04:24):
So I might say there's no way.
This gives me too much anxiety,and then other people thrive in
the run and gun.
So if you don't define those,those cultural values, even on
the at the team level, like youwant them to always submit to
the greater organizationalvalues, of course you don't have
competing values at all, butyou know that's a big part of it
.
What do you have in mind?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Well, I mean some of the tools that you have to have
at your disposal when you'rewalking.
A process like this is likewhat are your company's
guidelines for severance andtransition?
So always go back to thisphrase it might've been Gary Vee
, it may not have been thataverage performance gets a
generous severance.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
It's like look, it's just not cutting it.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
We're not just going to cut you cold, but we're going
to move you out of here prettyquick.
We're going to do that withthis.
Say that again Averageperformance gets a generous
severance.
Average performance gets agenerous severance.
It's like, hey, we're ahigh-performance organization.
It's just not meeting thedemands of what we have here, so
we're going to move on.
Here's a little stipend to getyou to your next.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So what are some tips ?
Like, say there's someone likeme out there, that's just like
man, you know, and I would tendto hold onto someone way too
long, you know, just because Idon't want to give the bad news.
And also it's it's, you know,it's a blow to a leader's ego
because they're like man.
This didn't work, you know.
I've worked for leaders beforethat you could almost do
anything and not get fired,because they just held real
precious this idea of no oneever leaves this team.
(05:49):
And that's back in the daywhere and thankfully, most
organizations have moved pastthis, but that's back in the day
where family was your family.
Well, you can't fire someone inyour family, you know, which I
have done before by the way butyou know.
So what are some things, asyou're approaching these
conversations, that are helpful?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, I think if a leader cares, that's like where
I have to start.
I've never not lost sleep.
I've always lost sleep over atransition.
I can still remember the firsttime I did.
It was my first like job I wasmanaging a music store and had
to let somebody go forperformance.
And nice guy, creative guy, hada family, had kids and it just
(06:29):
it just wasn't working out.
You know, we had set goals thatdidn't happen.
I still think about, like, howdisappointed he was to lose his
job, how much weight I carried,thinking man, this guy's gonna
have to figure out a way toprovide for his family, like,
and I think if leadersunderstand the weight of that
decision, yeah, it makes all thenext steps a lot easier and it
should impact your hiring.
(06:50):
Hey, I'm not going to hireanybody that I couldn't fire,
like just knowing that's areality for anybody you put on
your team.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Well, and it makes it in the hiring process whether
you do a 30, 60, 90 dayevaluation.
You got to take that serious,like a lot of people put that in
there, but it's like the personneeds to know that they really
do.
We're going to look at this in30 days.
If it's not the right fit, we'regoing to move like either of us
Right and they need to knowlike this is not just a
formality, but we're reallygoing to take these evaluation
periods, if that's somethingyour organization does.
(07:19):
But, to your credit, you calledme not that long ago after one
of those hard meetings.
It was just like hey, I justneed to process this out loud.
This just happened and I lovethat because it does show that
you care for the person For sure, and I think a lot of times the
care for the person can lead towhat I would call like a
leadership codependency, whichis I'm trying to manage If it's
(07:44):
overboard.
I'm trying to manage yourfeelings, your emotions, your
responses, as opposed to justsaying listen, I'm going to you
wouldn't say this out loud butI'm going to treat you like an
adult, like I'm going to treatyou like hey and I don't have to
overly try to sympathize orempathize.
I think to your point about howashley does these conversations
(08:05):
like I learned from a leader along time ago when you go in and
have a hard conversation, youget to the point quick, that's
right.
You don't start in a meetingand you you know, hey, how's
your weekend.
Whatever you bring them in andyou say this is going to be a
difficult conversation.
So I'm going to cut to thechase and then you get right to
it.
It's clinical, it's surgical,right and you can communicate.
(08:26):
If you, if you're the, if youfeel this way, if it's true, hey
, this is.
This is really tough for me andI'm sad about this and I really
now, whether or not theybelieve you or buy it or
whatever, at that point that'son them.
Yeah, like you can still showcompassion and you can hold both
parts and say listen, I thinkthis is the right decision and
I'm also I'm really sad about itand I'm really sorry this is
(08:48):
happening.
Both can be true and genuine,and that person sitting across
for you might say you're full ofcrap.
Yeah, you know, I'm mad, I'mpissed, I hate whatever.
And that's when you have tojust allow people to have their
own feelings or process whatever.
Probably the thing that's keptme from having those decisions
is I'm trying to manage thatother person's emotions Right,
and that's really disrespectfulto that person?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, and again, we keep saying this context really
matters.
So if you're working incorporate America, a lot of
times a C-suite, a board ofdirectors, is looking at trends.
They get to fourth quarter andgo we need to make sure our
stock prices are right.
If we're not going to catch upon the revenue and sales side of
things, we're going to cutcosts.
That means we got to cut 10% ofour headcount and I think if
(09:30):
you are in that world, you justhave to understand that's the
risk you're taking, that you'reA.
You have to fire people likethat sometimes.
And if you're an employee, hey,I could get fired just as a
result of a financial metric.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, some companies and I don't know if they still
do this, but I know Facebook,they used to you basically write
your job description for sixmonths.
Hey, here's what I'm going todo for the organization.
I don't know at what level Ithink this was a little higher
up but after six months, if youdid your job, even if you did it
really well, hey, thanks, youdid what you said.
Unless you can come up withokay, here's what.
(10:01):
The next six months, the nextyear, whatever.
There was just thisunderstanding of, like man,
we're going to treat you well,we're going to pay you well,
we're going to expect greatthings from you and then, once
it's accomplished, then ourrelationship is done, unless
there's something else you comeup with.
Now, some people may hate that,right, that's just one way of
doing things.
But to your point, there's alot of clarity of like, hey,
(10:21):
this is a six-month gig.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Unless I've got something, I can continue to add
value to the organization, andso for a lot of the clients that
we coach, I'd say small tomid-sized businesses you're
talking about maybe five to 50employees in that range.
Those are the cultures whereit's really difficult, cause,
like you know, if you work at aAmeriCorps mega company and you
know, and it's a giant officebuilding filled with people, if
(10:44):
someone's not in their desk thenext day, you're like, okay,
moving on, like if you've got aroom full of 10 people working
on something and all of a suddensomebody's not there anymore,
like you feel it right.
That's the emotional thingthere that person's not here
anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
What happened?
Yeah, and that that's somethingthat we help leaders with.
When we're working with a, withan organization, you know we
help with the whole process ofevaluating like hey, is this
person?
Cause sometimes a leader canget emotional about a person and
you're like, wait a minute,there may be something on the
leader's side that they need todo.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Um, go ahead.
I gave advice, literally, um,very recently I just said hey to
this leader if you sold yourcompany today and a new leader
took over, right, and they gotto run the business, yeah, and
they didn't have the emotionalconnections, they didn't know
your employees' stories, theydidn't know, you know, about
their family situations, wouldthey keep X, y or Z employees?
Like no, they probably wouldn't.
I was like, well, that's what agood leader would do is make
(11:35):
that decision now.
Yeah, wow.
And so I think to go back tosome more practical stuff
instead of some of the morephilosophical stuff is um,
there's a couple of reasonspeople have to transition.
One is that financial situationLike we talked about hey, we've
got to meet this financialdeadline, we've got to get more
profitable, so we're going tolose 10% of our employees.
We're going to move forward.
That's pretty unavoidable.
(12:04):
Those are tough.
But if it is a performance issue, like this person's leaning
away, they're not engaged, theirheart's not in it, they're not
performing or they're violatingour values, we have to check on
that situation.
So it requires management and alot of leaders don't like to
manage, and I think one of themost important tools a leader
has at their disposal is aone-on-one meeting, and so few
leaders do it Really.
Yeah, I think people avoid it.
Like the plague is like, oh,just can you just go do your job
, let me know when you got aproblem.
And I think the most importantdevelopment tool a leader has is
(12:26):
a one-on-one meeting and youcheck in engagement, you check
relational, you check umperformance, all that stuff.
You can really understand whatemployee you know is leaning in
or leaning away.
But my thing is like firing isnot the first step, like that is
not first base.
Right, we're going to go, hey,what's going on personally, like
, is there, is there somethingat home?
Is somebody sick?
Are you sick?
Maybe not ask those questionsspecifically, but try to
(12:47):
understand.
Is there a reason performancehas dipped?
Okay, no, it's none of thosethings.
Um, are you not as satisfied um, and engaged in the job because
of you know something we'redoing?
You try to understand that andthen you know, after you take a
couple of steps to try tounderstand what's really going
on, because at some point youhired this person and said, hey,
this person would be a greatfit on the team, we need them on
our team, let's do this.
And now you're going.
(13:07):
Oh, they don't fit anymore.
We'll try to understand whythat's the case.
Do your best, and then you knowyou kind.
Performance improvement step ofthe process where you've
documented these conversations.
You're making sure from like alegal and HR standpoint, you've
done all the right steps and Idon't know the percentage.
(13:30):
I think it's super low.
I think I've read somewhere,like in HR today or something
like that, that 90% of peopleput on a performance improvement
plan Don't come back Like it isthe kiss of death.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well, I was going to ask you, like why do that, Right
?
What's the point in doing that?
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Why do you think I don't know?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Well, I think it gives the person the opportunity
to adjust.
Yeah, because what you don'twant and we've said this before
Every person we've ever firedalways blindsided, even with an
improvement plan.
It's just like they're notshowing up and intentionally
trying to be bad at their jobmost of the time Most people are
(14:07):
doing the best they can.
It's just not working, forwhatever reason, and I don't
know.
I think you really shouldevaluate in your organization.
I'm hoping.
I guess my hope would be ifyou're having consistent
one-on-ones, yeah, and thoseone-on-ones are effective and
there's clear communication,then an improvement plan should
be happening all along, microadjustments, tweaking all along
(14:29):
like it should just be.
Like hey, this isn't working tome.
The improvement plan in someways you're exactly right that's
just the warning shot of likehey, you're about to get fired,
right, right, because mostpeople can't adjust if you've
been having those conversations.
I think that improvement plansa lot of times can be used by
organizations who are notwilling to have the one-on-ones
and the ongoing conversationsfor adjustment.
So they have this formalprocess, they put an improvement
(14:52):
plan in place.
That is what's kind ofblindsiding to the employee.
And now you've got thisdisgruntled employee who knows
they're on an improvement planand they're not getting any
better because you've alreadygiven a pattern of not having
hard conversations along the way.
Right, and so I'm not sayingI'm against improvement plans,
but maybe I am.
I don't know, um, but I justthink don't use an improvement
(15:15):
plan in place of what you weresaying consistent one-on-ones,
where you're giving clarity andfeedback and and chances are,
you're going to know a lotsooner and that employee is
going to know a lot sooner.
This isn't working If thoseconversations are happening
every single week.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
And here's probably the number one.
Tell here's probably the numberone.
Tell that firing is moreemotional than it needs to be.
Oftentimes, when you transitiona low performer, the rest of
your team goes.
Why did it take you so long todo that?
Right, Because they saw itright.
(15:50):
Everybody on the team's likeman.
This person is not engaging,they're not responding in
communication.
They're constantly behind indeadlines, Like I'm working my
butt off and I'm here.
They're not working their buttoff and they're still here.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
It's so demotivating A lot of times your team feels
that a lot before you do.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
As a leader, yeah.
And so you're like gosh, Idon't want to do this, I don't
want to fire somebody, I have tohire somebody.
It's going to take forever, andso you delay what's inevitable,
and sometimes you can lose theteam in that process because
they're so frustrated thatyou're not getting rid of the
dead weight.
That's a great point.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
I one of the hardest fires I've ever made.
Um, I had people come up to meafterwards and thank me and say,
hey, we're really sad that thishappened.
It actually if.
If you fire someone when it'sright right, we're not talking
about the person just going outand, just you know, hacking
people just because they'rebored, but when it's the right
decision, it'll actually buildtrust with your team and your
(16:46):
peers.
They'll come to you and say,hey, listen, we know that was a
tough decision.
And if you're open and honestas a leader, they're going to
tell like hey, you didn't makethat.
flippantly Like you felt it tooand they're going to come and
say, hey, we, we see that youreally struggle with that
decision and I actually I was alearning lesson.
I actually had a couple ofpeople that were close to this
person come to me and say, hey,I see that that was a really
(17:07):
hard call, but I respect you formaking that back, making that
decision.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
That's so good.
Maybe we wrap with this thisidea of codependence that are um
self-worth or value comes fromthe relationship you have with
the person you're firing, and Ithink it's Jim Collins talks
about, you know, freeing peopleto go to their next like
sometimes, yes, it could be oneof those like significant top 10
significant moments in theirlife that I got fired.
But hopefully on the other sideof that is opportunity,
(17:33):
reinvention, invigorating.
Like no one likes to get kickedin the teeth, right, no one
wants to be like I got fired, Ifailed, but for a lot of people
that's the catalyst to get themto what is next.
And if you have confidence inwhether it's in God or in the
universe or something, they cango on and succeed somewhere else
and it may be the motivationthey need to succeed at the next
(17:53):
thing.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
So should I be expecting thank you cards from
everyone who's doing well rightnow that I fired, or yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:59):
just let's put the address on the podcast, drew
Powell, po Box.
You're welcome everyone, one,two, three, four.
But why is it that, when we aremore emotionally engaged in
these firings than we need to be, that we can't see how clear
that is, that we can't help themget to their next?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Well, I think most of us as leaders, if we're being
honest, we struggle with control, right.
That's almost the shadow sideof leadership.
In some ways, like most greatleaders, they want to be in the
driver's seat, they want to leadright.
So it's like I'm not sayingthat's always a bad thing.
But the shadow side is I cantend to be a control guy and I
(18:38):
want to control people's future,their destiny, how they, how
they respond.
I want to control, you know, Iwant you know, I want to feel
good by how they respond.
I want to control all thosethings, which is, ultimately,
it's codependence, right, and soin that relationship.
So I think having to trust andsay I'm going to make the right
decision and I don't have to bein control of what's next is
(18:59):
really tough for me and for mostleaders.
But I think that's where it goesback to, where you say you can,
you can surrender and say I'mgoing to make the right next
decision.
I don't know what this is goingto mean for this person, but
I'm going to trust, at the endof the day, that the universe is
kind, like and that's a bigphilosophical shift for a lot of
people like is the universekind is god, kind are good
(19:21):
things in store for me.
Like those things and I'm nottalking like the you know
evangelical, like your best isyet to come, bs.
I'm talking about like, hey,things work out for those who
work hard and you know, and dothe right thing and treat people
well, like the universe is akind place and so if you have
that worldview, you cansurrender and not have to be in
(19:41):
control of someone's future.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
That's so good.
Thanks for leaving us on ahopeful, optimistic note.
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