Ep. #61: Greg Paulson, CEO of Giltner Transportation

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:28):
Welcome back to another episodeof FreightPod.
I'm your host, andrew Silver,joined today by a per usual
special guest, mr Greg Paulson,ceo of Giltner Transportation
and Giltner Logistics, and we'regoing to be talking trucking
today.
How are you, greg?
I'm good.
How are you?
I'm happy to be here.

(01:52):
I've done a lot of theseinterviews I think I'm on this
is maybe the 60th or somewherearound there and I've had very
few trucking companiesthemselves like owners, ceos of
trucking companies.
I've had a few, but not many,and you guys are such an
important part of the equationhere.
So I love the opportunity toget guys like yourself on here
and learn more about yourjourney, more about your

(02:14):
business, and you know how youguys have grown from, you know,
this kind of mom and pop shop 30plus years ago to a very kind
of mainstay in the industry anda very well-reputed company.
So why don't we start with yourbackground?
How did you even find your wayinto trucking?

(02:34):
You're an accountant by trade,correct?

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, so the way it all started was.
So it's funny.
In preparation for this I diddo a little bit of reflecting
and so I started on April 19thof 99.
I was a CPA working for a CPAfirm and Giltner was a client of
ours.
I was 27 at the time, so I waskind of the young accounting guy

(02:58):
and they'd send me whereverjust because I was young and
they could do that.
And I kind of hit it off withthe owner of Giltner, doug
Blevins at the time, and I wasspending more and more time
there.
His books and everything werejust a complete disaster and we
just hit it off and he offeredme a job and so I started on

(03:21):
April 19th and so in about amonth that'll be 26 years and I
was 27 when I started.
So one year from now it'll belike half my life so, but it
went by like that, you know.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Half your life at one company.
So take me back.
When was the company first?
When did Bob first start the?

Speaker 2 (03:39):
company, the company that was like in 1980.
And what it was is.
He was kind of a milktransporter, a local milk tanker
guy, and we have a ton ofdairies in the area.
He was hauling milk into alittle company called Jerome
Cheese and they asked if hecould take some of the cheese

(04:01):
onto Wisconsin, so he bought acouple of refrigerated trucks.
There's actually one of thecool things here A while back we
were recognizing one of ourdrivers with 4 million safe
miles Tommy Nelson, tommy right,yeah, I saw that I was going to
ask about him.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, that was very cool.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
What's funny is the clip we did on the internet is a
short clip, but he and I had along talk about everything.
That guy knows more about ourhistory than I do, so really,
really cool to have Tommy bepart of our team still, um, so
we ended up taking uh the cheeseback to Wisconsin and then Doug

(04:39):
Blevins came on.
The company started in 80.
Doug came on as the bookkeeperin 90.
Doug was amazing at a lot ofthings, but not bookkeeping and
then.
But he was really good withpeople and leadership.
I came on in 99 and somehow thetrucking company they did some

(05:02):
stuff taking the cheese but theyreally weren't good at
refrigerated over the road stuff.
So they basically just toldDoug to take over payments and
he could have it.
And there wasn't that manytrucks and Doug really built it
from about 90 to 99 into apretty good size company.
We were doing a ton of potatoesout of Idaho going to Texas,

(05:30):
potatoes out of Idaho going toTexas, and so then I started and
Doug had just really gone crazyand grown it ridiculously fast.
And then in about 2003, right,a couple of years after I
started, one of our biggestcustomers took all the potatoes
and put them on the rail.
One of our biggest customerstook all the potatoes and put
them on the rail.
So we had nothing and we were aone-trick pony and that was all
.
Doug knew how to do was takepotatoes from here to Texas, and

(05:55):
then we had some good customersbringing us back and that was
completely destroyed.
And not only that.
He had just upgraded.
Volvo at that time came up withthe new 770 tractors and they
were so heavy that they werejust terrible.
Everybody in the whole industrycould do about 2,000 more pounds
than we could, so we had lostour biggest customer.

(06:16):
We had trucks that were tooheavy, and then we really didn't
know what the hell we weredoing.
So we were shotgunning trucksall over the country, and that's
when I learned how to be atrucker was at that point.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
So a couple of things .
First, I don't know why Icalled him Bob.
Shame on me.
I meant Doug.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
There was Bob Giltner was the guy I did see that
right?

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah, you're right, Sorry.
Okay, confirmed Another pointyou just made.
So it's a couple of things.
First of all, one of the firstlanes I remember moving was that
exact cheese lane when I wasdoing work at coyote for craft
foods.
At the time it was not craftHeinz, was craft foods when they

(06:59):
still owned the snack businesswith the Mondelēz Um, we helped
a lot of their inbound and theyhad inbound cheese from Jerome,
idaho into where in Wisconsinand one of their plants in
Wisconsin.
I can't remember exactly where,but I do remember moving those
loads.
So that's funny that youmentioned that.
Also an interesting anecdote forpeople who don't know.

(07:20):
So you're in Idaho, jerome,idaho, I believe, correct?
Yeah, which, as far as I know,because I grew up, my first real
customer as a sales guy was acompany called Ruby Robinson
Produce.
So I'm a sales guy at CoyoteLogistics.
I'm like 22 years old, I'mtrying to find customers and the
first thing I thought to do wasgo and look at all the old

(07:41):
customers that we used to workwith that we no longer hauled
for.
Look at all the old customersthat we used to work with that
we no longer hauled for.
And if you think about why wemight no longer haul for them.
One of the reasons might bethey're not easy to haul for or
not great to haul for, and I waslike, screw it, I refuse to
have no load.
So I'm like I got to find loads.
I get in touch with these RubyRobinson guys who are a produce

(08:01):
broker based in Chicago, but alot of what they're doing are
potatoes and onions, and so thefirst few years of my career
like 60 to 70% of the freight Iwas moving were potatoes and
onions, largely out of your area, and so it's not easy freight
to move.
But secondly, I always thoughtit'd be great to have a carrier

(08:21):
base there because you couldjust pick off all the freight
you want, unless you've got theheaviest trucks, because that's
a problem, you know, for somecustomers not a big deal for the
produce guys, the onions, thepotato guys.
They want to load that thingwith every single extra pound
they can.
Um and and, having a heavytruck that just kind of

(08:42):
disqualifies you or at leastreduces the price you're getting
paid, because a lot of thoseguys were wanting to pay you per
pound, right, right right,right, yeah, so it was brutal.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
You were probably better.
The cheese thing, that waswhere we got started, but in all
fairness, you were probablybetter at that than we were,
because we never really pulledthat off.
The potatoes were kind of whatwe built the company around, but
then we kind of messed that upat that time.
So then what made it worse isright about that time.
For some reason, doug decidedto expand and we ended up

(09:14):
purchasing the private fleet ofa small potato packing plant in
Idaho Falls, and we didn't knowwhat we were doing.
Our due diligence was terrible.
We, we bought this fleet.
It was all old, beautiful, goldPeterbilt, so we're like 98s
and they were cool looking, butthey got terrible fuel mileage.

(09:34):
And when you buy a privatefleet, all the drivers are
spoiled.
They just like to go out andcome right back.
And we didn't realize thisbecause we were have no business
buying anybody, but we, um, webought in like in october, in
like march.
What year is this?
roughly, the year was about 2003, okay yeah yeah so right years

(09:58):
ago, all those drivers had aretention bonus that came due
like in March, and we paid thishuge retention bonus and then
half of them quit.
It was, it was just wonderful.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
So I feel like, as the accountant as the accountant
, that's kind of your job to be,like seeing those things before
in the due diligence.
We're all young once though, soI get it.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, I was young and and you got to get your butt
kicked a bunch before you reallylearn to the importance of
digging into those things.
So, yeah, that was what we wereabout then and we had to learn
how to be truckers and learnabout lane density and customer

(10:43):
relations and building thingsthat made sense and trading
equipment.
And we were down for the countfor about from 2003 to 2005,.
We were done.
I mean, I had a bankruptcylawyer on retention and then we
did a bunch of stuff that madeit turn around.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
So talk about that.
Why do you feel like you guysended up down the bankruptcy
path?
Just the series of poordecisions and mistakes and kind
of well, trucking is like.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
A lot of people are going to be able to relate to
this right now, because that wasa hard time.
In trucking, too, it goes inthese cycles and that was kind
of, and when things are goingbad, you lose your money real
quick, and we just had a lot ofthings go wrong all at once.
So what I learned the hard wayat that time is in order to be

(11:39):
successful at trucking, there'sfour things you got to do.
You got to raise rates,increase utilization, cut costs
and keep it safe, okay, and sothat's kind of what, and it
sounds so simple, but you canbuild a company based around
those four things.
And so what we ended up doingis we were shotgunned all over

(12:02):
the country.
We were struggling and whatreally?
We ended up calling all of ourlenders and talking to them.
The used truck market was in thetoilets and nobody wanted to
repossess our trucks.
We did call them all the time.
I had a.
Every day.
I managed the books in a waythat I had my here's what I must

(12:24):
pay like fuel and drivers andeverybody, and here's where I
put what I'd like to pay liketruck payments and trailer
payments, and we survived likethat for a period of time.
And then we found this customerout of California doing produce
and they were in trouble becausethey couldn't deliver their
lettuce on time and theircustomers were all mad at them

(12:46):
and they were losing theircustomers.
And we went in there andservice the hell out of that
account and they paid us betterthan everybody else and they
they needed us so bad that theyjust absorbed our fleet and all
of a sudden we were doing onething over and over and it paid
good.
And then, um, so we had fixedour operations piece and then on

(13:06):
the finance piece, we werestill struggling in our
equipment.
Even though we were healthy, ithad done so much damage.
Nobody was lending us money, sowe couldn't get new equipment
and the repair bills werestarting to kick in.
And then tab bank out of Utahcame down.
It was actually a guy, jj Singh.
He sat down with us and heworked with us and he took over

(13:26):
our line of credit and he boughtus.
Basically he was trying to getbig into the equipment space and
he got us all new equipment andthat just immediately turned us
over.
So it was the right trafficlanes with some density and all
new equipment and a newfinancing program, and then the

(13:46):
trucking company was on solidground.
At that point.
It just took years to undo thedamage we'd gone through.
But then we were solid andwe've been operating better.
With those lessons we learnedthe hard way ever since.
We're relearning them right now.
And getting back to basics, Igot some new people that were,
uh, having to go back throughthat and and, but we're in
better shape than we've, youknow, certainly than we were at

(14:08):
that time.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, I mean great points across the board.
I love the kind of four pointsyou mentioned.
I'm curious in finding thatlettuce customer.
They're based in California.
You guys are based in Idaho.
Were they running you back toyour like?

Speaker 2 (14:25):
domicile or you were taking loads, it was all west
and back.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
And did they?
Did they run you back or youguys were finding other
customers just to get you backdown there?

Speaker 2 (14:37):
You know, even though we're based out of Idaho, Idaho
has some nice traffic lanes,especially now.
At that time it wasn't quite aspopular a place to get to, but
we've never had all of ourtruckers based out of Idaho.
So it's like you don'tnecessarily get all your trucks
home on a regular basis and youdon't want all your drivers to

(14:57):
live in one place, because thenif you have a holiday and you
want to get them all home forthe holiday, there's not enough
freight to get you going, so youwant them to be based in your
traffic lanes.
California is a tough state.
There's a lot of special rulesto being a trucker focusing on
California.
At that time there was morefreight in California than there
is now, so it's just kind of acycle, but at that time that was

(15:19):
the thing that saved us.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
And just so I can give the audience an
understanding today, what doesthe Giltner business look like
in terms of the overall?
Give me just the size and scopeof the whole business.
We'll backtrack to get to howwe got there, but I think it
helps for people to understandlike what the business is it
looks like today.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, so we're not.
You know we're not a hugecompany.
We've got just under 300 trucksand we run primarily out of
Idaho.
We do a lot out of Arizona,texas.
We do a little bit of stuffgoing back to Florida.
We stay away from the Northeast.
We do California and theNorthwest.

(15:59):
That's on the transportationside.
The brokerage is about a $250million a year brokerage.
A couple of years ago we werepushing $300 million but things
have slowed down a little sincethen, like everybody.
In addition, we have ourfactoring company which does
about $100 million a year infactoring, and then we have an

(16:22):
insurance agency and acompliance business where we try
to help small carriers buyinsurance and be successful.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Got it, thank you.
And with respect to the actualtrucks you own, can you dive a
little bit deeper into what thatmakeup is?
How much of it's allrefrigerated, right, or most of
it's refrigerated?

Speaker 2 (16:40):
It's 100% refrigerated, except for six
trucks I got running out ofcartersville, georgia that are
heavy haul and those guys theygot that, all the axles and the
peterbilt you know that can dothe, you know the 250 000 pound
backhoes.
Just because I knew a guy andwanted to do that and I kind of
backed him and we got that goingand he's really, really good at

(17:02):
it, but that's only about sixtrucks.
So everything, everything elseis refrigerated.
Uh uh trailers.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
So one thing I'm curious about.
It almost feels like a chickenand egg situation.
You mentioned both yourCartersville, georgia, uh,
one-off six trucks, heavy haul,and then also mentioning how
your business is based in Jerome, idaho, but a lot of your
trucks or your drivers, I'msorry are domiciled, probably up
the eye, you know, on the westcoast, from california up to

(17:31):
oregon, washington, whatever.
I'm curious, like how you thinkabout the idea of recruiting
and and, and you know, securingtraffic lanes, like which comes
first.
Like you know, if you go findthe customer and then you go
want to find drivers who can runthat customer, or you find good
drivers and then it's like, ok,I know, this guy lives here, I

(17:52):
got to go find him a customerout of there.
How does that?
How do you think about thatkind of problem?

Speaker 2 (17:57):
You know you, it is a real problem.
It's a chicken or the egg, justlike you said, and it requires
discipline and patience andreally hard work.
Right, you know, you get somelanes that go to a place where
you really shouldn't be going,but you go there a little bit
and then you tell recruitingthey can recruit there and all
of a sudden they recruit a tonof guys there but you don't have

(18:19):
very much freight there and so,before you know it, operations
is deadheading guys home and yousee these huge deadheads or
this crappy freight thatsomebody took to get somebody
home to a place where youshouldn't be going.
So it comes down to basics andyou want to go to as few places
as you can where you can getfreight.
You shouldn't take freightgoing somewhere where you don't

(18:41):
have freight, somewhere whereyou don't have freight.
We do right now, I want to say,about 22% of our freight is
from brokers and the rest ofit's direct customer freight.
We do probably another 8% whereit's like our brokerage feeds
our own trucks.
So maybe 30% between those two.
But most of that you know.

(19:04):
Right now, especially in thismarket where the spot market is
way below the contract market,that is our worst freight, and
so we do get a little sloppy.
Back in 2000, like 22, it wasthe spot market was so high.
It made you sloppy because youcan go anywhere you wanted.
And there was, oh look, there'sa $3 a mile load.

(19:26):
I can get wherever I want fromthere.
I'll just go take these driverson a joy ride wherever they
want to go, we don't care.
And we got sloppy.
And, uh, this market has madeus focus and get back to the
basics.
And these are our directcustomers and if you don't do
everything on time you're goingto lose them.
They're precious.

(19:46):
You got to fight for them andyou better be on time.
And then we got to get awayfrom going to crazy places.
We got to pick our battles andget real good at it.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
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So density is a word I commonlyhear among the carrier community
as a fundamental and priorityin building out your capacity

(21:04):
lanes or your traffic lanes, andI'm curious, like when I think
about my engagement withshippers in the past and bear in
mind purely as a broker.
So I think it's maybe adifferent conversation and I
don't like to group any of ourcategories as, like one thing,

(21:26):
Like I don't think all brokersare the same, I don't think all
carriers are the same, I don'tthink all shippers are the same
by any means, but the idea ofbeing able to like build
consistency within a network, ina brokerage, is not as messy If
I lose a lane, if you lose alane, it feels like it can be

(21:47):
pretty freaking messy.
And if you've got a lane you'rerunning from LA up to Portland
and it's got some density to itand you're running five guys a
week on that lane and all of asudden that lane gets pulled in
the next bid because of I don'tknow, one cent a mile, or
someone just overlooked it.
I'm curious, like, what theexperience is like for you and

(22:10):
your company as you navigate bidcycles with shippers.
Do you see more loyalty or doyou have the same challenges
that the rest of us kind of have, and just kind?

Speaker 2 (22:23):
of.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
We go through that.
You know there's all thesebasics in trucking that you have
to be really good at, and oneof the things that we struggled
with a little bit was how toproperly bid freight.
We had one of our guys kind ofpulling rates out of the air and
not getting ahead of the marketand what the market was doing a

(22:45):
couple of years ago.
So we did a big bid for one ofour customers and because of the
way we bid, we got underbid onall the easy stuff and we won
the loads that were super, superhard with a bunch of drops,
because we underbid those and weoverbid everything else, yeah.
And so now we did that freight.

(23:06):
The OD pairs were okay for us,so the origin destinations were
fine, but we didn't perform aswell.
Then the next two years laterwe're doing a bid and they look
at our performance and we're noton time as much as everybody
else was and I don't think theywere able to really analyze that
.
Hey, we had a whole bunch ofdrops, everybody else had one
and it turns out they did better.

(23:27):
But you know it is what it isand so we even lost some of
those lanes and that particularcustomer is one we love.
This year we really did a goodjob on their bid and we didn't
win much freight, but what wegot is perfect and we're going
to look good.
It may take a couple more yearsto get it dialed back in, but
we're going to get back in there.

(23:49):
So it hurts because thesedrivers build their lives around
your freight.
They're real people and theymight live out there or you're
getting them into a rhythm.
They get home every week orevery other week or whatever,
and they get some consistency intheir life and then that gets
ripped out from underneath youand then you have empty trucks

(24:11):
or you have to go find driversand that's tough, you know, and
so we try really hard to keepthe drivers we have and take
good care of them.
But we have driver turnover andwhen you have things like major
lane changes, that it hurtsbecause you lose drivers.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, so that was going to be.
My next kind of question washave you seen it so directly
impactful in that, like you losea lane and you just immediately
lose drivers because there'sthere's nothing you can do to.
You know, all of a suddenyou're like hey, you know, I
know you've been running LA toPortland for me, but the only
load I can offer you is LA toVegas.
And they just say I'll go worksomewhere else, I'll, I'll find

(24:50):
someone else to drive for.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
There's some of that but, generally we try to build
most of our lanes, have morethan one customer going each way
when we're really doing a goodjob of building it.
Um, you know, like you got theMidwest has me but there's like
five people that make somereally good you know pork and
chicken and stuff coming out ofthe Midwest.
Most of it goes to certainlocations.
So you get good at industriesand not necessarily one company.

(25:15):
Um, it still hurts because someof those customers you really
do fall in love and it kind ofbreaks your heart when you lose
them Cause you get likeemotionally that business and
stuff.
But you, uh, generally you wantto be into the markets and
lanes bigger than one customerso you can survive some hits
like that yeah, thediversification I mean.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
It's something I you know.
Again, I've only lived on thebrokerage side, but it's
something I used to say to mysales reps all the time.
Is, you know, would you behappy with your book of business
if your top customer fired youtomorrow?
And if the answer is no, youbetter get on the phones and go
find some more customers.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
And I think the same thing I mean one good customer
and they just want to sit ontheir laurels, and that's the
like.
Success is the enemy of reallygood success, you know me of
really good success.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
You know, a hundred percent, a hundred percent.
Complacency falls in there, um,but let's let's talk a little
bit about kind of the concept ofdrivers recruiting and I'm also
curious about the notion ofowner ops versus company drivers
.
From from what I saw, uh,giltner started as a small
business that was only owneroperators, um, and maybe tommy
was the first company driver, ifI saw that correctly in the

(26:31):
video or one of the first yeah,um, talk to me.
What does the business looklike today in terms of owner
offers, company?
drivers, and I'm just curiousfor your general take on what
it's like dealing withowner-operator versus company
drivers, what the benefits proscons are to each side.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, so I love the owner-operator, lease-operator
model and I think it's.
You know, when you look attrucking, you handle a whole
bunch of money and you keep justa tiny little sliver.
So if you do everything right,you get good utilization, the
rates are reasonable and youmanage your fuel mileage

(27:07):
properly and you don't idle yourtruck all night and you just
keep going.
The nature of fixed costs andvariable costs for a trucker
that wants to be a leaseoperator and do a good job, they
can make a lot of money,especially a couple of years ago
, right, when the rates were sogood.
Now they're just doing betterthan my company drivers for the

(27:29):
good guys.
But back then we had some guysthat made a lot of money and
then still left and went ontheir own because they could do
even better.
At that time nobody neededshippers.
So the lease operator model youknow you've got fixed costs and
variable costs in trucking, soyou've got to get a certain
amount of miles.
The good lease operators arededicated to push themselves

(27:54):
where they can get those miles.
They're paying for the fuel sothat they're going to not idle
their truck all night and sothey just manage their expenses
better, their utilization better, and so they just manage their
expenses better, theirutilization better.
And then one thing that's funnyis I always benchmark my company
trucks against my owneroperators.
My owner operators always thebetter freight their adjusted
rate per mile is always better,and the reason is because

(28:17):
they'll tell my load planners to.
They will argue with the loadplanners and they won't take a
crappy load.
And so my load planners.
Unfortunately, they use thecompany drivers as a crutch
sometimes and they'll deadhead acompany driver to go save this
load that we should haveprobably never taken anyways.
If the owner operator doesn'twant it, they're probably

(28:37):
smarter than you and there's areason they don't want it.
So quit trying to fix theproblem with these company
drivers.
You screwed up and got thatcrappy and it's you know.
So in a certain extent you know, but we swing in our owner
operators company truck numbers.
During like 22, when the rateswere so high, we swelled our

(28:58):
owner operators and our companytrucks went way down and then it
kind of went off a cliff andit's kind of gone the other way
to where we're at about ahundred company and 200 owner
operators still primarily owneroperators.
But we've got a hundred companyand we're not that good at
managing company drivers.
You've got to have drivermanagers that really watch the
utilization and get the driversto stay out there to hit their

(29:20):
goals, and you got to watchtheir idle time and their fuel
and just.
You just got to be on them andwork with them and set goals and
and manage them, and if you'renot careful they will lose money
.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
So a couple of questions coming out of that.
One is why would someone chooseto be a company driver, Given
what you just laid out?
If I'm, you know, contemplatingcoming to work for you as a
driver, and my options arecompany driver or lease donor
operator why would I pick thecompany driver up?

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, Well, one is you know there's a lot of things
you don't have to worry aboutand you don't have to stress
quite as much.
You get in the truck, you getthe miles, you get paid for
deadhead, you just drive.
You get home, you get healthinsurance, you get 401k, all
those kind of things, and so youcan do really well as a company

(30:11):
driver also, and especially nowthat we're getting some lane
density back and really tryingto get some miles on you and
work with you.
It's easier, it's faster.
And then the owner-operatorsare the guys that are just going
to run a little bit harder andthey want the risk and reward of
having their own business.
At this point it's about sixyears really, where the

(30:34):
owner-operators that run welland the company drivers probably
make about the same amount ofmoney, but a couple of years ago
the owner-operators made a lotmore.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
The other question I had coming out of that is when
you look at your business andyou say, hey, I feel like we
need to be doing better with howwe manage our company drivers.
What are the things that you dostrategically to make that
happen?
How do you make thatimprovement come to fruition?

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Well, it comes back to raise rates, increase
utilization, cut costs and keepit safe.
So, as far as raising rates,we're going through our traffic
lanes and we're analyzing ourtraffic lanes at a level we've
never done before.
I'm literally taking every laneand saying what's my revenue
for the next 10 days on thislane?
And the thing about that isit's not just the one load, it's

(31:24):
this load puts you in thisplace where you got this next
load.
And we're not just looking atthe rate per mile, we're looking
at the revenue per day, and sothe revenue for the next 10 days
on maybe two to three loads puttogether is X and we're
actually finding two loads.
We are finding loads that lookgood but they're not good
because you had a betteralternative.

(31:44):
And so we're analyzing thelanes, improving the lanes to
get the utilization and the rateper mile up.
We're going with our drivermanagers and we're completely
redesigning their hours andtheir accountability.
So we had this program withdriver managers that were four

(32:06):
on, four off, and it created alack of accountability where
trucks would do bad and theywere like well, it's only half
my fault and it's half thisother guy's fault, and now we're
going to say these are yourtrucks and you don't share them
with nobody.
If they do bad, it's on you.
So we can benchmark the trucksagainst each other, the driver
managers against each other.
And then we are also.

(32:26):
We actually created reportcards for every truck, every
truck.
So we're grading them.
You get a grade on youradjusted rate per mile, your
miles, your fuel, and we'retaking a hard look at all the
critical events we get from asafety standpoint how many hard
braking, stability warnings,those kinds of things.
And so we're just gettingdiving down with a lot more

(32:50):
quality that we're trying to getout of these, each and every
driver and every driver manager.
So just safety utilization andrates.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
So I think that's a really interesting concept of
how you're kind of analyzing theopportunity cost of a given
lane relative to what otherfreight could have been
considered.
That seems like a reallychallenging thing for someone to
do on their own.
As you know, it's just a personjust know me looking at dat and
my customers.
So I'm curious like are there,is there technology that you're
using today?
I mean, it feels like, as we'recoming into the age of ai,

(33:25):
where there are tools that couldbe used to do this and and give
you as a as efficient of arouting plan as you can get.
So what?
How does that work on your inyour world.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
The problem you have is you've got load planners and
load planners typically have anarea and so they like to hot
potato drivers and they're likeit's so obvious when you look at
the whole picture, the reasonyou got a good rate from point A
to point B is because there'snothing at point B.
You send them to the worstplace on earth and you think

(33:57):
you're a hero, you know, and soif you're not careful, they'll
just hot potato your drivers tothe worst places and they all
think they're amazing.
But they're just.
It's just.
You gotta look at the biggerpicture and that's the problem
with the load planner setup,where they each have an area.
We are using some software.
It's Truckload Wizard, I think,is the name of it, but I think

(34:22):
there's a lot of software outthere.
It's just the concept of theopportunity cost, like you're
looking at and really driving inand getting true analytics out
of it.
We've reached out for some helpfor some other consulting
people and we're starting to seeit.
We've reached out for some helpfor some you know some other
consulting people and we'restarting to see it.
I think there's quite a bit ofsoftware out there to help you
do that, but we've been at it along time and we're kind of

(34:48):
tapping into some people thatcan do it better than we ever
did it.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I'm curious about the notionbecause part of how I think
about the opportunity cost islike there's only so much an
asset carrier can do.
I just feel like the doors openwhen you have brokerage
involved because there'stypically more customers that
you can look at more lanes tolook at more opportunities, and
so if you're trying tounderstand the true opportunity

(35:11):
cost of a given lane, bringingthe brokerage into the
conversation can be helpful, andI think you said before that
about 8% of your loads come fromyour own brokerage.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout how the brokerage and the
asset work together and likewhat the benefits are to having
the brokerage and and you knowI'm curious about how it what

(35:31):
it's like selling into customers?
I should stop.
I got to stop doing this thingwhere I asked four questions at
once.
Let's just start with theoriginal one around the
brokerage and the asset together.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
So the way we started our brokerage was in about
2010,.
We had a gentleman come to us.
His name is Rob Stevens.
He's a great guy and he knew aton about brokerage.
I had seen brokerages not workwith asset-based companies where
they didn't respect each other.

(36:05):
The asset-based company wouldlook at the brokers and say you
guys are not good people andyou're just out there taking
advantage of people and if yougot a good load, I'll just reach
over there and take it andit'll be mine because I'm more
important.
And then the brokers would lookat the asset and say, hey, I
got this crappy load.
Nobody will take it.
I'm just going to take one ofyour trucks and put it on there
because it's a dumb load anyways.

(36:25):
And so they would cannibalizeeach other and not respect each
other.
So we started off therelationship between the two
companies with a boundary in themiddle.
They said we are going to treatthese companies as though
they're separate companies andthen we're going to try to get
people to work together becausethey actually respect each other

(36:47):
and they like each other andthey understand.
But nobody owes the otherperson anything.
It's just because we can worktogether and you'll both benefit
if you work together but youdon't have to, and we felt like
that was a good approach tostart with.
The other thing is our agencyor our freight brokerage is
taken off.
But my component to that is I'mreally good at back office.

(37:10):
I mean I can vet carriers andpay bills and bill customers
really well.
But we were largely anagency-based brokers to start
with and so you get some uniquemodels there.
Like half of our brokeragefreight is dry van freight, so
it doesn't work on the assetsanyways, and so that's kind of

(37:32):
our foundation.
As to the two companies, theyreally are separate companies.
I actually left the fleet for aperiod of time and moved the
brokers to Twin Falls, which isonly about 15 miles away.
But I had a bigger recruitingbase to hire people and I got
very fortunate.
I've got Michelle and Karen andMegan that work with me.

(37:52):
Those three and then ToddBoffman.
Those four people kind of runthe brokers.
I was fortunate to have acouple of people pop up and
that's what allowed it to growwas specializing in the back
office.
So how do you get them to worktogether and how do you get them
to sell together?
You have to be careful andthink that all the way through

(38:15):
In a perfect world.
You go into a customer and thecustomer is all open-minded and
they say, hey, we got both ofthese and I'm going to put a lot
of it on my trucks.
But when you keep giving mefreight and I don't have any
more trucks, I'll broker it, orI'm going to be brokering it,
but I can get my trucks in there.
In reality, the customers wantdrop trailers.
They want all these things thatprevent you from being able to

(38:36):
broker it.
Trailers, they want all thesethings that prevent you from
being able to broker it.
And then the customers theywanted assets for a reason, and
then they because some brokerupset them or vice versa, you
know.
And so the best relationshipsare the ones where there's just
incredible amounts oftransparency and working
together.
We do a lot of customers wherewe're literally set up twice,

(38:57):
once as a carrier and once as abroker.
That way they're notaccidentally putting a brokered
load on one of my drop trailersor things like that.
So it's not easy.
You just have to.
It's about relationships andpeople and talking together and
figuring out every customer'sdifferent, to be honest.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Yeah, I mean, there's so much in there, so much gold
in there.
Frankly, I appreciate yousharing all that.
I think you know.
Let's just start with theinitial outreach.
In that if I email Kraft, foran example, and I'm not hauling
for them today, they don't knowwho I am, and I say, hey, I'm
Greg with Giltner Transportation, I have 300 reefers and would

(39:39):
love to be a carrier of yours,that email probably has like a
50% response rate maybe.
Actually, let me ask you thatquestion what is the typical
response rate on a cold outreachon behalf of the asset?

Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah.
So the funny thing about thatis all the brokers think oh, if
I just had some trucks I'd go.
Every customer You're about toexpose me, they'd all run
through the.
You know, I'd go anywhere inthe country, they'd open the
door and roll out the red carpetand I'd come in with those
assets and it's not like that.
Not as much as you would thinkUh, not as much as you would

(40:21):
think Uh.
And so the other thing aboutthe broke or the the asset side
is we're seriously only addinglike maybe five customers a year
.
Tops.
I don't even.
That's just.
What I want is either long-termpartnerships, I want to be with
these customers forever, and sothat's you know.
I don't even I, as of right now, on my asset side I don't even

(40:42):
really have a sales guy.
It's just like my, the, thegeneral manager and myself are
just kind of dovetailing that inour sales guy.
We he, we had a longrelationship with a good sales
guy but he kind of moved on andstarted his own business and we
just never replaced him.
So that's on that side.
But we do go work with ourbrokers a lot and when they have

(41:04):
customers, I go around and gomeet customers all the time with
them and take them to dinner.
And when there's an asset playin there, we open the door and
do that.
We do.
The asset gives you somecredibility as a brokerage for a
number of reasons.
But it's you just you don'twant your brokers to go say

(41:24):
you're going to get assets allthe time and then broker
everything, even though a lot ofthe time they can do a better
job of.
I've got brokers that do asgood a job of performance, of
being on time, as the assetscould ever do.
You know, I've got some reallygood brokers that just
everything's on time.
They do a great job.
But you don't want to start arelationship off with anything

(41:46):
like that.
You want to be prettytransparent and you want to say
this is what you're going to get, this is how we're going to be
successful, because brokers canbe so good.
You know there's there's a lotof reasons why for a lot of
freight, brokers is a betteranswer and we need to be proud
of that and make it happen.

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I love everything you're sayingand I respect the hell out of it
too.
I mean, I just think you'reyou're hitting the nail on the
head because there's problems Icould walk through that that are

(43:11):
solved by your approach.
But I know of a brokerage andmultiple who went so far as to
buy an asset as as in one asset,so they can say they're
asset-based and it's all part ofa ploy so that the initial
email when they reach out to ashipper, rather than what is now

(43:31):
probably a 0.04% response ratefor just a broker reaching out
to a shipper, cold.
They think they can get a 50%response rate if they say I have
assets, and you're right that,like shippers, it can be messy,
and the right shippers want thatovert transparency and they

(43:52):
want to understand what everypart of your business can do.
If the assets can do this, theywant you to have a SCAC for
that.
And if your brokerage can dothat, they want you to have a
SCAC for that.
Because, just like theyunderstand the smart ones, the
good ones understand that yourcost and the price you need for
a Giltner truck to run a load oflettuce from LA to Portland is

(44:15):
different than what yourbrokered cost and rate needs to
be.
And the right companies havethat kind of transparent
relationship where you can talkthrough all of that and set it
up in a way where everybody canbe happy.
And another point I just thinkis so interesting is like I
always thought as a broker Icould outperform every asset.

(44:35):
I just thought in general I'mnever restricted by resources,
whereas an asset, if playing asa true asset, is restricted by
resources.
There is going to be a timewhen you've got a potato load
picking up in Twin Falls and thedriver actually breaks down on
the way there and there aren'tother asset your own drivers who

(44:57):
are in the area and the onlyoption is then to fail on the
load or, as a broker, you gofind someone else, and that is
one part of the equation thatjust can't be.
You can't argue that.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
No, no, a hundred percent.
There's a lot of the times whenthe broker can be better,
because you're literally dealingwith.
A thousand trucks are going tohit that market over this
weekend and I have four trucksheaded that way, if I'm lucky,
you know.
And.
But on the other hand, I mean Ican give you amazing
consistency on a lane that I'mgood at, I've got, you know,

(45:30):
every one of my tractors is.
You can load it.
It's sitting there preloaded.
I can monitor that temperaturewithin a three degree
temperature range from A to B.
I have bells and whistles thatgo off if the temperature is not
right, you know.
So in the lanes I'm good at, Ican be very competitive, but I
can't do it all.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yeah, so I should have added that.
Caveat is that the example Iused is like one of the few
examples where a broker canoffer more than an asset, but in
a million other examples theasset can do so much more than a
broker in terms of monitoringthe temp, consistency on
tracking, things like that youcan provide.
It's much easier for you toprovide connectivity through

(46:13):
technology that as a broker I'vegot to take at a minimum extra
steps, but maybe I can't do itat all because the carriers are
unwilling.
It doesn't mean I can't get theload there on time, but there
are many parts of service andexecution.
So we'll say that.
And one more thing I wanted toadd to this part of the
conversation which I think isinteresting.

(46:34):
I like how you talked about theidea of two separate companies,
two separate entities.
That kind of had the line drawn.
There's mutual respect andunderstanding, because I think
one of the biggest reasons thatthe larger asset-based brokers

(46:54):
struggle, or the large assetcompanies that have brokerages,
I think one of the big reasonsthat they have historically
struggled is they alwaysprioritize the assets and when
you do that you really cripple abrokerage's ability to develop
strong relationships with acarrier, for example, um, we'll
stick with the potato example.
Um, you know, shipping out ofTwin Falls to Tampa, florida, to

(47:21):
go to a PFG down there orwhatever, maybe they have five
loads a week of potatoes andduring certain times of year
there's just way more abundanceof that, and from August till
the end of the year there's fivetimes, 10 times as many of
those loads available.
And so your trucks are busy.
There's always something forthem to do.
But there are certain times ofyear where there's not as many

(47:43):
loads there.
And if during those times,let's say, the brokerage has
this committed lane from TwinFalls to Tampa and they go find
a carrier who's a great carrier,and they support the lane and
they run it all year and theyalways show up, they always are
on time.
And then all of a sudden, theassets are looking around and
they don't have enough trucks.
Your own assets, I'm sorry,don't have enough freight and

(48:06):
they just go and take that load.
They say you know what, forget,the brokerage has that lane,
we're going to take it.
We got to fill our assets first.
The assets are a priority.
All of a sudden, that carrierthat the broker has a
relationship with that they'vebeen supporting all this time
they're SOL, they'll always bekind of second fiddle to the
broker's owned assets and that'sjust a disadvantage that's hard

(48:28):
to overcome, because if I'm acarrier I'm never going back to
that broker on any kind oflong-term deal.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
And, as you know, like brokers are special people.
They're intense and they'recompetitive and all that stuff.
If you treat them like secondfiddle, then they don't stand
for that.
They go become somebody else'sbroker real quick.
So that's something that welearned early on and took
advantage of that to build ourbrokers through people who had
been mistreated.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
I'm curious about the other parts of your business
that you mentioned and I wasactually unaware of until today
the factoring company and theinsurance part of the business
you talk about, like when didthose come to be, why did you
start them and how do they playin the business?

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Yeah, so just like a little bit of history on it is
so.
Doug Blevins and I werepartners.
We worked together for about 17years and then he ended up
passing away in 2017.
And we were super close.
He got cancer and it was just atragic thing.
That happened to our businessas part of our history and we
miss him.

(49:37):
But the factoring is kind ofspecial to me because I started
that myself, even though I wasjust a part owner at Gildner at
the time.
I've always enjoyed that andfactoring came out of a mistake
I made and we were actually inthe brokerage office in Twin.
I hired this young guy tobroker for us and his name was

(49:57):
Ramon.
He was giving loads to a bunchof these Middle Eastern guys and
they came in and they werehanging out with us.
They just came into our officeand I got to know one of them
and his name was Roddy and Saeedand I just said, hey, why don't
you guys just hang out here?
You can just run your truckfrom right here and you can look
at all our freight, and if wecan work together, that'd be

(50:19):
great.
And I learned that they wereamazing at getting freight for
their trucks and they didn'tneed any help there, but I could
bill customers and pay them.
I had a much cheaper cost ofcapital and I was buying fuel
and equipment and tires for alot less than they were buying.
So we just kind of rolled themin and before you knew it I just

(50:44):
broke it off into a separatedivision because we saved them
so much money.
I didn't charge hardly anythingfor factoring and it just
worked so well.
I had a gal by the name ofSierra and I still have her
today.
She's the reason it's taken offand they were just like family
and they came in here.
To this day we have spent $0 onmarketing or sales or anything

(51:05):
for factoring and we've got like300 trucks we factor and it's
100% word of mouth.
And then I was able to takethat to my vendors and I didn't
want any of them to be concerned.
So I laid out everything wewere doing because, like, they
don't want you to be like anaggregator or somebody that's
just giving discounts and stuff.
And then we laid out hey, theseare my guys, this is what I do

(51:27):
for them.
They're in here, we literallywe talk trucking, we talk
freight, we look at all theirstuff.
I'm helping them, you know,with.
At this point it's rolled intowhere I'm helping them.
At this point it's rolled intowhere I'm helping them with
insurance and licensing.
I help them get their authoritysometimes and they're going wow
, that is a lot more than what afactoring company would do.

(51:47):
And so we're cool with whatyou're doing.
You keep being part of theseguys' lives.
Twin Falls is actually a I thinkthey call it like a refugee
community or something, wherepeople from the Middle East were
coming here after I can'tremember which war it was or
whatever.
We got a huge influx of reallygood, super hardworking, super

(52:10):
smart Middle Eastern guys and wegot into that thread of them
and there's a big pocket of themin Twin Falls and also Ohio and
they're just good people andit's just grown.
And that's what started that Ialways wanted to have an
insurance agency and that's achicken or the egg problem,
because you can't get a goodmarket till you got a bunch of

(52:31):
trucks and you can't get a bunchof trucks.
So you got to get market andyou just have to grind.
I have a Nikki that runs myinsurance office.
She's a NAMI certified safetysupervisor so she's able to talk
to these guys and say, hey, thereason you're paying too much
for insurance is you got threetickets last year.
What the hell are you doing?
The only way you're going tosave any money is if you get out

(52:51):
there and you don't get anytickets and you're run super
safe.
And then she works with themand she works harder for a one
truck guy than anybody wouldever do.
So it's just all small littlecompanies, but it's it's.
Uh, we're.
We're doing a lot of good for alot of people there.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
So first question is why did you?
Why you said you always wantedan insurance agency why?

Speaker 2 (53:12):
You know, I I just think that, um, insurance is
such a complicated piece to thisbusiness and it's kind of a
racket to a certain extent.
People pay way too much forinsurance and if you're going to
be good at trucking, you got tobe good at insurance or you'll
just give away all your money toinsurance.
Right now the fleet isbasically self-insured because

(53:34):
some captives were in with a lotof different layers and a lot
of different types of insurance.
So I'm a very good insurancebuyer and I just was able to
take.
I knew I could help people if Idid that for them.
These small trucking companies.
The way people give theminsurance is they just say go on
my website, you're so small,I'm only going to make you know

(53:54):
a thousand bucks on you thisyear in commission.
Just sign up, and I'm not goingto make you know a thousand
bucks on you this year incommission.
Just sign up and I'm not goingto spend any time on you.
That's the way that everybodyservices one truck guys.
My people go to them and theysay come on in here, sit down,
let's talk about this.
Okay, here's how you look froma safety standpoint.
You got to get safer.
You can't have any wrecks, youcan't have tickets.
You got to be good.
I'm going to take and put yourliability insurance here, I'm

(54:15):
going to put your cargo overhere and I'm going to get you
this Fizdam through this othermarket.
I put it all together andyou're saving them.
You know, five grand a year andso it's huge for these guys.
And then they tell theirbuddies and then before long you
got a real company.
So I just knew I could helppeople and they needed that help
and I was lucky I had, you know, sierra and Nikki to take those

(54:40):
two companies and get themgoing.
I've also got, uh, mycontroller, mandy.
She's got a real, she's got anetwork of people that can
finance and we've dipped our toein helping people finance
trucks and trailers and buy someof our used stuff.
And we we got our butt kickedpretty good this last year
because we financed a bunch ofpeople and then, you know, in
the downturn it was just badtiming so and that was good.
It was good for her to have tolearn during a hard year and

(55:03):
she'll take those lessons andand be.
You know she was fairly smallso we could take those hits Okay
, but it made her good.
So we're going to benefit for alot of years there.
But if you look at the wholespectrum of what we're doing to
help people, small carriers wantto be part of this.
You know we can help them withtheir financing, their billing.
We've got freight for them, wegot tires, we got fuel and and

(55:25):
we actually have people that'lltalk to them and help them.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
So interesting.
I you know I wanted to ask youabout you're in several
commoditized businesses whereit's very competitive and very
hard to stand out.
My old partner, matt, wanted usto start a factoring company in
the last year coming because wehave non-compete with freight.

(55:51):
And I was just like man, whatare we selling?
A rate, and it's just so.
Frankly, I thought it looked alittle boring, but you could say
that about trucking, I guess,but I don't know.
I just it feels verycommoditized, it feels very hard
to stand out and what I wasgoing to ask you was like how do
you grow the thing, how do youactually make a name for
yourself?

(56:12):
I feel like I got the answer alittle bit, but I'm going to let
you try to answer and then I'lltell you what I think the
answer is so with all of ourbusinesses.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
Here's the thing at giltner, we don't care if we
grow.
Okay, we want all the companiesI've involved in we have a.
Our value is we want to beprofitable, enjoyable,
fulfilling, that complements therest of your life and improves
the lives of others.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
Okay, so so that's the second to last one.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Okay so compliments the rest of your life.
You said it's basicallybalanced.
We were.
Our people have a lifestyleoutside of work, um, and then
improves the lives of others.
We want to be safe.
You know we deliver as acompany.
You know 10 to 11,000 loads amonth.
That benefits a lot of peopleand people that are in the
freight business, whether you'rea broker or trucker.
You need to be proud of that.

(56:59):
That's a big deal to deliverall that freight.
That's what makes America run,you know, and so we're proud of
that.
So if we do a good job, we wantto be profitable.
I have to remind my peopleSometimes I say profitable first
because you don't get to do allthe fun stuff.
If you're not, you still haveto have your eye on the ball and
stuff like that.
Enjoyable means everybody workstogether well and we take care

(57:21):
of each other.
Fulfilling means everybody'sgrowing and we're learning and
we're improving and then have abalanced life.
You get it.
See your kids grow up and stufflike that.
And then complimentary, youknow, improve the lives of
others.
You're safe and you deliver agood product to people.
You help these small owneroperators and the people that
you're helping.
My wife and I own the business.
We don't spend a ton of money,so I don't have a huge ego.

(57:46):
It doesn't matter how big weare.
At times I've had a little oneand you get humbled real quick
when you have those things.
They're overrated and so I justget to work with good people
and we take care of business.
I just get to work with goodpeople and we take care of
business.
So as far as growth, when youquit worrying about it, it tends
to happen.
Now I looked at your story.
Holy cow, you guys grew.

(58:06):
I mean, that is growth Likewhat both you at Molo and Coyote
.
That's an incredible growthstory how fast that happened.
I could never do that.
We grew kind of fast, butnothing like that.
So it's a hold them or bottleball game if you want to get a
business that can take off andgrow at that pace.
But we just have nicebusinesses that we enjoy doing,

(58:29):
that we try to get really goodat, and then they just naturally
grow when we do it right.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Yeah.
So the thing I was I mean Ilove the answer and there's so
much good stuff in there and Ithink what I thought the answer
was in terms of like, why youguys have done well with the
factory and with the insuranceis just because it seems like
there's a very intentionaleffort to do good by people and

(58:56):
to help people in ways thatothers maybe won't go so far,
and that kind of oozes out ofyour other answers, and so I'm
not surprised with what youactually said relative to what I
thought you'd say, at leastwhat I was hearing in what you
said before.
It's interesting becauseprofitable there's a stigma

(59:18):
around it.
Right, it's a simple concept.
Right, everyone should look ata business and think, oh, they
should be profitable, because ifyou're not profitable you can't
be a business for very long,unless you're doing something
like just raising obsceneamounts of money and burning it
and whatever, whatever.
But maybe it's because I'm abroker at heart and brokerage

(59:42):
always has this negativeconnotation that people think
you're taking too much of a cutor whatever.
That, like I never felt, like Ishould just overtly say
profitable is part of our valuesor who we want to be, and at
molo we had.
We had, you know, we grew.
So there were definitely pointswhere we weren't profitable.
We weren't focused on profit inthe first few years, but by the

(01:00:04):
time I was fired we were veryprofitable.
I mean, we were doing very well.
So it's interesting though,because I think I never talked
about profit publicly with myteam, which wasn't the focus.
I was so focused on service andexecution and I would say that
that would lead to profit, butit wasn't, which wasn't the
focus.
I was so focused on service andexecution and I would say that
they own that would lead toprofit, but it wasn't the focus.
And as I've thought about doingthis again, you know, whenever

(01:00:26):
my time comes to be able to doit again, I kind of want to make
profit, like like you talkabout it and it's kind of like
the forefront and in.
I feel like you can do it in away that's very responsible and
you put it out there to yourteam like profit is a core.
I don't know if value is theright word, but it's a core part
of who we are Because, like yousaid, you can't have all the

(01:00:47):
fun stuff without profit.
You can't have.
Like you know, you're not goingto have the nice Christmas
party if the business isimprobable.
You're going to get a piece ofDomino's pizza, right.
You're gonna get a piece ofdomino's pizza, like right,
right, and and so I don't know.
I just as I think about thatlike, I want to bring that into
my own kind of thought processas I think about my next steps
in building a business.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
One day is like putting profit at the forefront
but doing in a way that's notlike yeah, like you don't have
to be crazy rich and have ayacht or nothing, but you got to
make a net income or else wejust can't hang out anymore.
You know, we want to build anice business, you want to get
paid and it's got to be likeeverybody has to win.

(01:01:29):
You know, as far as profits aswell as you got to make money,
the employees got to do good,the carriers, if you're
brokering the customerseverybody's got to win.
And with us, it's most of thethings I do, or the sayings that
I have they're an and it's notan.
Or, especially when I talkabout raise rates, increase
utilization, cut costs and keepit safe.

(01:01:51):
I don't want people to ever say,oh, you put one of those in
front of the other because ontrucking it's all of those must
happen.
There's no this is in front ofthat, et cetera.
That's like me saying would yourather have if you had a car
you wanted to drive?
Would you rather have gas inthe tank or have air in the
tires?
Well, you got to have both, youknow.

(01:02:13):
And so with trucking, youabsolutely have no choice.
You have to be profitable, butyou also have to take safety,
and there's not a this in frontof that at all.
It's both and you just it's amust, and these other businesses
are kind of like that too.
It's just profit is.
There's nothing wrong, you know, being profitable you must be
there.
It doesn't mean you're greedyand you want to be rich, you
don't care about people, it'sjust.
This is a math problem.
At some level it's a bigequation and and you can't do

(01:02:37):
good if you don't make a profit.
But profit is also something tobe proud of, because it means
you got that, because you did a.
You know, think of all thosefreight you delivered for
everybody.
Somebody benefited from allthat work.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
You did so 100% at Molo we built a great company
and I'm proud of the work we did.
We knew when to ask for helpand sometimes that meant going
outside of our own company.
I'm proud we built an ecosystemof trusted partners like
Metafora.
When we needed differentiatedindustry expertise in business
consulting or technologyservices, we looked at Peter

(01:03:08):
Ryan and the team at Metafora.
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enterprise brokers, for shippers, carriers, private equity and
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At Molo we use Metaphor tosolve problems we simply
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Metaphor is the only partneryou should trust to help you win
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(01:03:31):
optimizing spend or selectingand building software.
Go check them out atMetaphornet that's
M-E-T-A-F-O-R-Anet.
There's two things I want to hiton.
One is related to profit, theother is related to safety.
So we'll start with the profit.
How do you navigate profit andmaking profit in the last two

(01:03:52):
years of the cycle that we'velived through?
I want you to talk a little bitabout it, because I didn't live
through it.
I've been talking into amicrophone while you guys have
all been out there struggling inthe market and I'm sorry I'm
not in the fight with you all.
I wish I was, but I'm not.
So I'm curious what has thatbeen like the last two years?
All I've heard is it's as badas it's ever been.
And how did you navigate it?

(01:04:13):
What kind of strategically didyou do to put yourself in a
position to not be back in 2004,again 2005,?
Looking at bankruptcy stuff?

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
So each of our businesses is different and the
answer to that is a littledifferent for each business.
One thing is we've alwaysreinvested our profits for you
know, for 40 years back into thebusiness.
So right now I have zero linesof credit, everything.
We still owe money on ourtrucks and stuff, but we don't
have any lines of credit oranything like that.
So we're running I don't knowlike 30 million in receivables

(01:04:44):
with no lines of credit.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
So that's not even with no line, no line of credit,
with the brokerage on on thefloat.
Really, how, how, how well haveyou been able to manage, Like,
how, how do you, how, what doyou?
What?
If you're comfortable sharing Idon't know if not, but like I'm
just curious about your um,what that looks like to float in
terms of, like, when your daysto pay and what you're receiving

(01:05:06):
, and yeah, we, we, uh, we'vealways wanted to pay carrier
super fast.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
We're like 22 days of pays, our normal pay Plus we do
a lot of quick pay.
Um, we just retain every pennywe ever make in profit and over
time you have zero lines ofcredit.
You start slow and you justbuild that way the entire time
and in the good years you puteverything away and then you're
good for these kinds of years.
So, as a company we have, weare actually sitting on it.
I'm having to pull some moneyfrom brokerage right now to put

(01:05:34):
into trucking, because truckinghas lost some money.
If you put it all together,they kind of support each other
a little bit.
Um, so, yeah, we have zerolines of credit.
It's something, once you'vegotten to zero lines of credit,
from being maxed out and ittakes, you know, 10 years, 20
years of grinding to get there,but then you it's, it's awesome,
it's a nice thing and you cantake comfort in that.

(01:05:56):
So that's part of being astability, a stable company or
responsible for a lot of people.
So when you look at thedifferent companies and how we
survive in these tough markets,you've got our agencies.
They just go down to where wemake less money on them.
But really they've gotemployees.
Most of our agent managers alot of them are small agencies

(01:06:17):
so they just kind of theirpersonal family kind of takes a
little bit of a hit.
Some of them have offices.
We've got one agency with about50 employees and they've had to
get lean and they've let somepeople go and kept the good
people and got rid of the badpeople.
We have a number of companystores as well and again, you
know it used to be you had abunch of salespeople that
weren't performing.

(01:06:37):
You kept them along just tryingto make them.
Someday that guy's going to hitbig and we got rid of a lot of
those.
We're also carefully monitoring, just like you would manage a
brokerage where you manageeverybody's gross profit and if
they don't hit their numbers youkind of got to get rid of them.
You coach them up or coach themout, so you run your brokerage
well like that.
We've always kind of ran a verylean back office and so there's

(01:07:01):
not a lot of waste there On thetrucking side through these
tough years.
So trucking is kind of likethat story the two guys in the
wood and the bears coming at himand the one starts tying his
tennis shoes and he says youcannot run the bear.
And I go, I know, but I cannotrun you Right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
And so that is.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
I cannot survive forever at the rates the way
they are right now.
I am literally being paid lessthan it costs me to run trucks
and I'm losing money everysingle month.
But I can survive at this levelway longer than about, I
guarantee you, longer than about30% of the other trucking

(01:07:41):
companies out there.
So by the time I go down,everybody else is long gone, and
so that's just how you have tofeel.
You're like okay, we have totighten our belts, we have to
get super efficient, we're stilllosing money, but I know
everybody else is losing more,so we're going to be okay.
We just have to get down theroad a little bit and then we're
going to be okay.
We just have to get down theroad a little bit and then we're

(01:08:01):
going to be fine.
So it is literally justsurvival of the fittest.
Knowing that I can.
I mean, there's guys out there.
We have these guys.
We say that guy would rather behomeless than chromeless, you
know, and he's got these trucksthat have all the big pipes and
everything, probably gettingthree miles per gallon.
Those guys are in trouble, youknow.
They just bless their hearts.
Those are awesome trucks.
I love those guys and they'renever going to make it.

(01:08:23):
So there's a bunch of thoseguys the coolest truckers ever
are not going to make it.
I'm sorry, unless they got areally cool little lane worked
out with something where theyget paid a bunch of money.
So we have to out-survivepeople in this marketplace.
We know that's going to happen.
Things have got to turn and I'mlooking at it.
We're probably quite a bitlower.

(01:08:45):
I'm finally beating like lastyear.
At this point my rate per mileis higher than it was last year.
I'm way below where it was attwo years prior to that.
Another thing that just happenedso okay, so real quick on truck
trades is during the good years.
Every time my trucks got just alittle bit old, I would take

(01:09:06):
them in.
They would give me a check for20 grand.
I would give them my old truck,they'd give me a new truck and
I'd have the same payments I hadwith brand new tires, no
maintenance.
It was awesome, and we startedturning them faster and faster.
Before long I was turning themin with less than 300,000 miles.
They were turning around andselling them for quite a bit
more.
Things turned and I wasfinancing them at 3% too.

(01:09:26):
Things turned and we werefinancing at six and a half to
seven overnight, and if I wantedto do that, I think they were
writing me a check for 10 grand.
But now if I wanted to givethem a truck, I had to pay them
20 grand, and my new truck had apayment of about a thousand
dollars a month more.
So, luckily, all of our truckswere so new.

(01:09:48):
We just kept them all and quittrading and we put about 150,000
miles on them since we quittrading, but we're still in good
shape.
As of right now I'm workingwith Freightliner and they're
doing a deal where they'rebuying my trucks for what I owe
on.
Still not, I don't make anything, but it's kind of getting back
to where it was, and the onlyreal difference now is that

(01:10:11):
interest rates are still toohigh.
So when you look at as we exitthis market where nobody can
make any money, that was one ofthe key things that had to
happen was for the used marketto get to a decent place, and I
think that now you've got bankswith a lot of trucks running up
and down the road right now thathaven't gotten a payment on
them for a couple months, andbanks are going to get to the

(01:10:33):
point here soon where they'relike I can sell that truck if I
go repo it and break even.
So it wasn't that way before.
So they were like okay, justmake me a payment when you can.
I don't want to take the hit,but now they're to the point
that they're going to startrepoing those trucks.
It'll eventually.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
That's part of kind of a sign that you know you're
at the end of this problem iswhen banks can repossess trucks,
because I'm competing with guysthat haven't made truck
payments in a while yeah, it'sso interesting and it's a
challenging concept to likeaccept is that for you to get
where you need to go, you needother people to fail, like you

(01:11:14):
need them to go out of businessand and for that, and then
enough of them going out.
That's what brings the ratesback up on one side of the
equation, I mean you still needthe demand, but you know it's
yeah it could be that can happentoo yeah, yeah, that would be
better, but it isn't happeningright now have you?
have you heard anything fromcustomers in conversations

(01:11:35):
you're having that?
Suggest they they see any signsof that on the demand side?
Because there's nothing I'veheard that suggests that's there
yet.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Yeah, you know, a couple of months ago the demand
looked like it was tipping up.
I mean, I'm sure you'rewatching all the DAT, contract
and spot market charts together.
We stay glued to that thing andthe spot marks have dropped
pretty bad for like two monthsin a row.
So I thought we were headed inthe right direction.
I thought two months ago wewere onto something and now it's

(01:12:03):
turned back.
I think you know you're aboutto go into produce season and I
you know it can't last forever.
Um, something's going to happen.
I don't know.
It's a weird time out there andwe're just digging in and being
entrenched and waiting, um, butwe're doing a lot of stuff to
fight harder, and it's good.
My people need to go throughthis and they're going to come

(01:12:25):
out of this better, and I neededthis for my team to go through
this.
We're talking about things thatthey never would have got, the
messages that we're goingthrough right now, and so I
actually, in a lot of ways, Ireally enjoy this for our
trucking team, and so I actually, in a lot of ways, I really
enjoy this for our trucking team, and they're going to come out
of this way tougher than theywent into it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
There's such a valuable lesson for those
listening about the power ofperspective right here and how
Greg's thinking about this stuff, because there there's so much
opportunity to bitch and moanabout how bad beat, to play the
victim and to see the negativityand you know the profit going
down and different elements ofthe business and just be

(01:13:06):
frustrated and annoyed and angryor whatever.
But I just love that.
You've said multiple times nowthat you're like happy this is
happening because of how it willshape your people to be better
business people and betterleaders and more capable and
adept, and I just love thatbecause I think it's you didn't

(01:13:28):
have to say it out loud Likethis is a leadership lesson.
But it is absolutely aleadership lesson that anything
can be positive if you just lookat it through the right lens
and see the opportunity in itand then put your people in a
position to make the most ofthat.
So I appreciate yourperspective.
Good, thank you.

(01:13:48):
Now to the other piece.
I want to talk about safety andand really I guess I'm curious
like how far?
What can you really?
How have you been able to kindof advance?
How have you been able to kindof advance safety in your arena

(01:14:11):
in light of the nuclear verdictsthat we're starting to see or
continuing to see on thetrucking side, like there are
some concerns, at least fromwhat I've seen, about people
really even questioning theviability of trucking if these
nuclear verdicts can continue tobe what they are.
So I'm curious what your takeis on that and how do you think
about prioritizing and, I guess,developing safety throughout
your business?

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
Yeah.
So safety is by far the moststressful thing I deal with, and
I've gotten to the point of youcan tell me a load was stolen,
you can tell me a lot of thingsbad happened and I don't even
flinch.
But when you tell me there wasan accident and somebody might
have been hurt, that wrecks myday, that's the worst thing ever

(01:14:53):
and it stresses me out.
So a couple things on that.
I've had some of the verdictsthat are crazy.
I was talking to some guysyesterday In 2017, we wrote a
check for $2 million and itwasn't me, it was our insurance

(01:15:13):
carrier, but it was over.
The weirdest accident was overthe weirdest accident.
My driver was going down theroad and another car came and
hit our truck from the side.
Okay, it was in the state ofWashington and Washington has a.
No, they got this rule and I'llprobably mess up the
terminology here, but basically,if there's an innocent party in
that car, then the way it worksis everybody that's at least

(01:15:38):
one percent at fault has to paythe damages based upon where
you're where with all the pay,and then you can sue each other
to make it equitable.
Okay, so there was a guydriving that car clearly wrecked
into us.
There was a pregnant lady inthat car and she ends up two
years later at the doctor.

(01:16:00):
She's had this child and thischild has all sorts of special
needs Okay, lots of problems andshe's going.
What could have happened?
The doctor says God, I don'tknow, were you ever in an
accident?
She goes you know there wasthat trucking accident and they
get lawyered up and they comeafter us and we go.
I go to Seattle and it's liketwo years it's so old by the

(01:16:25):
time it gets to where we'reactually going to a mediation
over this.
But they take my lawyer and ateam of people for us.
We go in this room, we meeteverybody and this young lady
starts talking about herdaughter and the the work that
she goes through raising thischild and she just you know if

(01:16:47):
there was ever a mother thatcould have just melted your
heart on the way she talkedabout her child Um, we, we go
through this where everybody'smet each other, and she talks
about her child.
We go in the other room and mylawyer, who had a $250,000
reserve on this claim, goes donot ever let her tell that story

(01:17:07):
in front of a courtroom.
And so you had a thing where itwas not our on liability, we
would have had to prove we werenot even 1% liable.
And then you had causation.
They estimated the level ofimpact was probably comparable
to doing some jumping jacks, andso we Wait, that's how minimal
the accident was.

(01:17:28):
Oh, yeah, yeah, it was no bigdeal.

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
Okay, so this wasn't a big wreck.
This wasn't like the car wastotaled.
No, no big deal at all.
Good context.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
Probably like a pregnant lady doing jumping
jacks.
I know pregnant ladies who'vedone those, uh, mud races and
you know all that stuff.
I know people that have donecrossfit.
You know pregnant clear up.
But it should.
It is what it is.
The insurance people looked atthis I was just in the room at
this point is their money.
But they said you know they.

(01:17:56):
They said we might win oncausation but it's going to cost
us five hundred thousanddollars in expert witnesses to
get there and we have a chanceto settle right now for two
million bucks and they took it.
So that's when you're talkingabout nuclear verdicts.
That's my horror story.
And it all worked out becauseit was so old by the time it

(01:18:17):
went to that point that it wasbeyond the point.
Like my current insurancewasn't looking back that far.
So I never got killed when onrenewal because of it.
So I never really had to payfor it, but I still had to live
through it, you know, and I'vehad other ones where I've had
some accidents, but so that'skind of the nuclear verdicts.
I've actually been there andgone through some of those.

(01:18:39):
We have good drivers.
We fire drivers that haveproblems.
Here's what I end up with, andsomething that I talk a lot
about is, for some stupid reason, trucks have all this
technology you can buy.
You can buy collision avoidanceon the front and you can buy

(01:18:59):
blind spot monitoring on thepassenger side.
You cannot buy it on thedriver's side.
It's not an option to get blindspot detection on the driver's
side of your truck for somereason, why I have no idea.
Now, if you look at the mirrorsthat are available to the
driver, the blind spot on thedriver's side are much smaller

(01:19:22):
than the blind spot on thepassenger's side, and so you
would think logically yourdrivers are going to do a better
job of monitoring that andreally maybe there is no blind
spot.
Somebody would make thatargument.
So Freightliner in the fourthquarter of this year is going to
add that as an option to thetrucks, and they I that's one

(01:19:43):
thing I told them is I willnever buy another truck, ever.
That doesn't have that Cause Ido have some horror stories
about blindside.
You know I've been going downthe road and somebody tried to
pass me.
I've had drivers go to passsomebody and somebody tried to
pass them.
At the same time my guy wasgoing the speed limit, so the
car that went to pass us had tobe flying, but that you know, my

(01:20:04):
trucks have a million pieces ofdata that come off them and say
this is your speed limit, thisis when they pushed on the brake
, this is when they pushed onthe throttle, this is when they
turned the turn signal.
This is what the driver waslooking at, the the car's going
to pass me, he's flying, don'thave anything.
So it's like what you know andit's just.
It's a terrible situation andthe lawyers are so good and if

(01:20:27):
you're in the wrong jurisdictionyou're dead before you even get
to anybody looking at it.
So it's a.
It's a crazy racket.
So my new trucks are going tohave they've got collision
avoidance on the front.
They've got blind spotdetection detection.
They're going to have it onboth sides.
I've got tire pressuremonitoring all the way around.

(01:20:47):
Um, the worst thing, man, ifyou ever see a steer tire blow
on a truck and you watch itthrough the cameras, that'll,
that's not fun.
Those steer tires areterrifying when they blow, so
you to put good tires on thereand monitor them.
And then we monitor our drivers, um, so if somebody has a
heartbreak or a stabilitywarning, um, or speeding alerts.

(01:21:11):
We have people that watch thatfull time and we respond to it,
we coach them up or we get ridof them.
So it's it's a nonstop battleand we try very hard.
I'd like to be better at itthan we are, but we're as good
as anybody and it's justsomething we focus on all the
time.
So it's it's it's tough, butthat's something you better be

(01:21:32):
really good at if you're goingto do this.

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
Yeah, I mean it's it's.
I can appreciate how theintensity with which you talk
about it because it's clear thatit's a priority for you and you
kind of walk through all thedetails and all the
controllables that you have andhow you focus on them could be
on the road.
You could be in the midst ofanother nuclear verdict

(01:22:03):
situation and because of thelaws that govern states like
washington or alabama is one Iknow, and there are plenty of
others where, even if you causeone percent of the damage, if
you have the deepest pockets,you might be paying 100 of the
damages.
And um, I'm just curious if youthink there's a path for that,
to like for the um legal aspectof all of this to move more in

(01:22:27):
the trucker's favor down theroad, or you think this is just
something we're gonna have tolive with and be insured well
enough to support yeah, I don'tknow, um, there's.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
You see things going on.
I think texas did a new not toolong ago where they made it a
little bit harder to do nuclearverdicts.
They had some really bad onesover the last couple years and
Texas is a fairly conservativestate.
I don't know it's.
Things are going to change andyou know it is.
If there was anything thatterrified me, it would be that

(01:22:58):
you buy insurances, you buysafety things and you're still
terrified.
That is the most stressfulthing in this business by far
and I don't know.
We're doing the best we can andI hope we can survive because
it can take a lot of good peopleit takes to build these
companies and if you drivethrough Las Vegas or anything,

(01:23:19):
every other sign is on.
Hey, if you've been in atrucking accident, let me
represent you.
There's so much money.
I think that there was somereforms in medical liability
stuff and all those lawyersmoved to trucking and it's a
really tough, tough place to beright now.
So if there is reform, that'dbe great.

(01:23:39):
Um, who knows it's, it'soverdue, it'd be nice if there
were some kind of limitations onthat.
At the same time, you know it's, you know we need to be safe.
It caused you to be safe, butit's also going to take some
good truckers out of businesstoo.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
Well, um, I appreciate everything you've
shared with us today.
I think this has beenincredibly insightful, and I'm
going to end this with just onelast question and I'd like to
get some advice, especially fromsomeone like yourself.
What advice would you give tokind of the budding

(01:24:16):
entrepreneurs, people who wantto start their own trucking
companies, people who want tostart their own brokerages for
how they can best positionthemselves to win in this
industry?

Speaker 2 (01:24:28):
You know you just want to get good at the
fundamentals.
Get all the training you canget, go in, enjoy it, because
it's fascinating.
Like I said, I'm going to behalf my life in this, in 419 and
26.
And it seems like that, likethat's how much there is to

(01:24:48):
learn and that's how muchenjoyment you can have, just
constantly.
You're never going to run outof growth opportunities here, so
you can dive in.
I mean, you got to be good atsales, you got to be good at
safety, you got to be good ataccounting and hopefully you got
a team.
But in the beginning you'reprobably going to be doing it
all yourself.
And so identify your weaknessesIf you want to grow fast,

(01:25:09):
partner with people if you needto.
If you want to, there's peopleout there if you're really good
at one part of it, so get someleadership training, um, and
read a lot of books.
We do a lot of stuff, um, myteam's gone through a bunch of
training with Jocko Willink andsome of his musters and some of
the extreme leadership stuff.
Love that guy.

(01:25:31):
And, uh, I think you just got todig in and realize it's a
long-term game.
Be conservative, it's.
It's a wonderful industry ifyou just like, if you like pain
and you like suffering and youlike it's not easy, you know, if
you want easy, don't do this.
But if you want a crazy ridethat's rewarding and and has
opportunity, you know, then thengreat, dig in and enjoy it, but

(01:25:53):
don't, don't think it's goingto be easy.
And then when you do have goodyears, you better bank all that
you know, because there's badones coming.
So I think it's I don't knowthat I have that much advice.
It's just too much, but justget after it.
That much advice.

Speaker 1 (01:26:08):
That was like 10 pieces of great advice, so I
don't know about that much.
That was a lot, so I appreciateyou.

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):
Oh, good, good.

Speaker 1 (01:26:24):
I, oh, good, good.
I appreciate you letting meshare.
Thank you, and with that,that's all we got from Greg and
Giltner Great company.
If you're looking for a greatasset carrier, hit them up or
some brokerage or factoring orinsurance.
He's got you.
So with that, we'll see younext week.
Thanks everyone, thank you, you.

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