Ep. #70: Jett McCandless, CEO & Founder, project44

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey FreightPod listeners.
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(01:29):
Welcome back to another episodeof Freepod, I'm your host.
Andrew Silver joined today by aspecial guest.
This one is extra special, asthey all are, mr Chet McCandless
.
Chet, welcome to the show.
How are you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:40):
I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me on theshow.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
I've been looking forward to this.
Yeah, this is a good one.
Project 44 is one of the mostinteresting companies in our
space and has been for now.
It feels like a decade for anumber of reasons.
Obviously, a ton of success, Ithink, raised almost a billion
dollars at this point, I think900 something a global impact.
And there's also something thathas always felt mysterious

(02:09):
about this business.
Maybe it's just me and nothaving understood it well enough
, but I'm excited to dive intothe story of P44 as well as kind
of your own journey.
So I think I want to start withyou and just take me all the
way back to kind of your originin freight, how you got here and
what your early days in freightlooked like.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah Well, freight is something I'm passionate about
and I'm trying to evolve intomore of a supply chain guy.
But freight is where I started,guy, uh, but freight freight is
where I started and I startedin portland, oregon, uh, making
12 bucks an hour at roadwayexpress, working, uh, the city

(02:52):
dispatch, and it was a really,really cool opportunity.
I remember back then I wasdispatching trucks and with nike
and columbia sportswear andbowflex manufactured in the us
then, and I would just tell themwhat the ETA was for their
truck.
I worked swing shift.
I went to university in themorning.
I remember I looked over at myboss one day and I said, hey,
like what's the?

(03:13):
Why do I have this job toanswer the phone and tell them
what the ETA is Like?
They have the internet, we havethe internet.
Why don't we just communicate?
He says shut up, kid, keepanswering the phone.
Tell them the truck's going tobe there in 15 minutes.
I was like, all right, that's alot of money 12 bucks an hour.
I'll keep doing it.
But that's where I kind ofstarted falling in love with it
and you and I were kind oftalking a little bit before the

(03:35):
show.
There's so much opportunity forproblem solving in this space
and when you're working at acarrier on LTL dock, you get to
play Tetris with the physicalworld.
And not only you're dealingwith an epitome situation, we're
doing a lot of unionpersonalities too, back then,
such as like there's so manylayers and opportunities to
explore and to take the thingsthat I valued in life or I had

(04:00):
fun with and do it.
But yeah, it was.
That was a great time.
I ended up doing all theoperation roles at yellow and
roadway and eventually got insales.
Eventually I managed Walmart,which is a billion dollars of
revenue for YRC.
Yellow had acquired roadways abillion dollars of revenue.

(04:20):
That was a lot.
I was 27 years old, I know Ithought it was cool.
I was living in kansas city,which was not cool and um, uh,
but we won like carrier of theyear and innovator of the year
from walmart and I just kind oflooked around and thought, well,
there's no other account that'sas big.
I've done all the sales and opsjobs.
When I go over to this globaltrans company um, I know those

(04:41):
guys, uh, a little bit.
I want to understand whatthey're doing Like how are they
actually getting these LTO ratesonline and how are they selling
and how are they making thismargin?
Because I've been in theindustry for probably eight or
nine years then, but that wholeconcept back then was foreign to
me.
So I went over and I joined,joined those folks, and we had a
good, good run and then it hadpretty disastrous end, let alone

(05:03):
me, and what does that mean?
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Run and then it had a pretty disastrous end Leto and
me.
What does that mean?
I?

Speaker 2 (05:10):
don't know the story.
I think somebody told me oncewhen you build a company, it's
the same way that you love anindividual the good things and
the bad side of your personalitycome out.
When you're an entrepreneur,okay, and I think for me, it's
like I always go all in, Ialways push and I'm always just

(05:30):
trying to be the absolute best,and I think I brought that
everyday global trans and Iearned a lot of sweat equity, uh
, through that, which I wasreally appreciative of that
opportunity.
It's how they were able toretain me and you know, we had
actually got ourselves in apretty big situation at Global

(05:52):
Trans.
So you know, we were growing100% year over year.
We weren't really.
We would take a lot of businesscustomers that had bad credit,
but hey, that was okay.
We didn't have any debtfacility at our fingertips.
We didn't have any venturecapital.

(06:13):
None of us knew how to do it.
We were just a bunch of guys inPhoenix trying to grow a LTO
brokerage online, and one thingthat I'll give Andrew and Brad
really a lot of credit for isthat we basically built a
vertical integrated operatingsystem and with all proprietary
technology and as we, that wasthe customer service, the portal

(06:36):
, the operations teams, likeeverything.
And when we went to go to mass500, I think it was the
accounting system, netsuite wealso wrote out a new tms at the
same time hey, why not?
And um, we didn't know whatyou're doing and we had a
situation where we didn'tinvoice customers for like two
or three months.

(06:56):
And so if you do that and you'repaying carriers in 15 to 30
days and you got customerspaying you in 45 and 60 and
you're going 100 year over yearand you got no deficit and you
don't know how to raise capital,you in 45 and 60 and you're
growing 100% year over year andyou've got no deficit and you
don't know how to raise capital.
You meet yourself, on arelative basis, a fairly
successful company, and so weended up selling to a private
equity firm and I didn't likethe terms at all and I didn't

(07:19):
want to sign documents.
I had a decent amount of equityand I didn't like this guy
named Tony Albanese that Andrewhad brought in and started
taking over the company from anops standpoint, who later tried
to get Andrew fired.
So Andrew and I had a very,very high friction exit that
involved attorneys and lawyersand non-competes and and, and I

(07:43):
don't think for well over adecade, uh, we were each enemy
number one to one another.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
I, I've been Leto's enemy number one before, so I, I
, uh, we share that.
We have that in common.
Uh, andrew and I spent like twoyears being each other's enemy
Number one.
Uh, it's a story for anotherday.
I think, actually, it startedat your conference.
Actually, we were at the P44event that you had Mark Wahlberg

(08:17):
come speak at, what was therestaurant RPM Steak.
I was at a dinner table withAndrew Leto, robbie Nathan.
I was at a.
I was at a dinner table with,uh, andrew Leto, robbie Nathan,
myself and Kevin Nolan, whichwas a great group.
I didn't know Leto at the time,though, and he made a comment
that, uh, I did not sit wellwith me, and I reacted, and the

(08:37):
next two years, we hated eachother.
Um, we just made up a fewmonths ago, and we just made up
a few months ago, so I'llprobably have him on the show at
some point.
I was keeping him at arm'slength because of that, but let
me go back to your commentarythere.
I'm curious, like I've beenthere and I'm trying to think of

(09:11):
the best way to kind of saywhat I want to say is, like it's
frustrating when you Icompletely understand what you
mean by like building a businessand pouring yourself into it
and pouring all of yourself intoit, which means the good and
the bad, um, the emotion, uh, Ijust that.
That resonates with me a lotwhen I think about my own like
journey and my time at Molo.
It's like I can't.
I can't look at that timewithout feeling some sense of
guilt and almost shame for, likethe negative parts of me that

(09:34):
did show up in the business allthe time.
That's just what happens, Ithink, when you really pour
yourself in and maybe otherpeople are a lot better at it
than I was, or maybe you werewhen you were in your twenties.
People are a lot better at itthan I was, or maybe you were
when you were in your 20s.
But I guess what I'm curiousabout is like you put all this
energy and effort and clearlyvalue into building this
business Global Trans with Letoand whoever else was on that

(09:56):
team, and then you have thiskind of really unfortunate
ending to the story.
I'm curious if you look back onit with like, with any regret,
or if there's like if you wishyou had done something
differently, and how you carriedout that process.
Cause when I look at kind of mydeparture from Molo, which was,
frankly, ugly.

(10:17):
Two years later, I have regretabout my role in it and how I,
how I showed up in that, and I'mjust curious how you feel like
as you think about that, youknow, a decade later.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yes, so that's.
It's probably closer to 15years, 13 years or so later.
At this point, I think, like alot of things in life,
experience and perspective, youcould be critical of yourself,

(10:51):
but you also have to take thosethings as learning opportunities
and experiences, andunfortunately, some have to
happen in order to become theperson that you want to be, and
some people would call thatwisdom.
I think I wasn't the CEO ofGlobal Trans.

(11:12):
I was a large equity holder andI think being the CEO of a
company a couple of companiesnow is giving me a different
perspective.
I could have handled itdifferently.
I certainly was getting uh, uh,taken advantage of uh on the
exit is the private equity guysand things were coming in, but

(11:34):
um, I, uh.
I would have handled thingsslightly different in hindsight,
but at the same time, I thinkit all worked out really, really
well and it was probably timefor me to go do that.
It opened a lot of doors, builta lot of friendships with
people Once the non-compete wasover.

(11:56):
That's how I met really greatpeople like Doug Wagner and your
dad and Bobby at Blue Grace andthe Worldwide Express guys, and
I would go consult with thembecause Global Trends did have
some really unique magic specialsauce and I was able to go and
take that innovation and theideas that I had created and

(12:17):
apply it and monetize it, whichthen opened up the doors for me
to, as I could see how morebrokers were operating.
I could then see theirreoccurring themes and patterns,
which is what led to Project 44.
But I think on the globaltrends exit specifically, I

(12:37):
could have done it with lessfriction.
I could have not been so brash,probably on on on it, but hey,
I was being really mistreatedand back then it's like if you
want to fight like, I'm your guy.
Uh, so you know, yeah that's.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
you know it's there.
I feel like you and I may besimilar in that regard where
it's like you know, if you'regoing to challenge me like I
will, I'll, I'll stand, I'llstand up and you know I'm going
to defend myself if I feel likeI'm in the right.
And in a lot of ways, that canbe a super valuable I don't know
character trait and some others, uh, it can be challenging.

(13:19):
One other question I have onthat is just is there a lesson
or something that you learned inlike how to protect yourself in
the future, or something thatother people maybe could take
away from just navigating being?
It's hard when you pouryourself into a business and you
earn that sweat equity butyou're not the decision maker,
so it's not your choice to sellthe company and someone else's

(13:41):
and you have to accept that ifyou're not the CEO of any
company really, or controllinginterest in any company.
But is there something as youlook at that that you learn?
Like next time I would neverallow this or I wouldn't agree
to that something that isvaluable as a takeaway?

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, I think I applied it to my next company,
which is carry direct, and Icertainly applied it to project
44 um.
But I think you summarized itwell like if you're not the
founder of the controlling uhparty, then you kind of have to
go for the ride and be okay withit.
On the global trans example, Ididn't have um, I didn't have an

(14:25):
attorney.
Look at the document that Isigned.
So problem number one but,again.
I came from Section 8, housing,food stamps, things like that.
There was no attorney in thefamily, there was no one to
reach out to.
At that point in life I was byfar the most successful person

(14:47):
in you know, a national accountexecutive at Yellow.
So that doesn't excuseignorance, and I certainly
wasn't spending.
There was no chat GPT back theneither.
But yeah, I should have takenmore precautionary measures and
you know it would have beenslightly different.
But at the end of the day too,you can't live behind attorneys.

(15:10):
You've got to look at whoyou're doing business with and
what will happen when there's adispute.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, that's one of the hardest things about the
like, I certainly agree,especially anyone who's getting
into a position where it's hard,because going from a national
account executive to becomingalmost like a BP-level equity
holder in a business, that's abig jump, and I get why.
At whatever age 27, the firstthought isn't to just go get a

(15:42):
lawyer and have them, like youknow, read through these
documents and protect you, butthe other side.
So it's definitely valuable foranyone who's listening.
If you're finding yourself in aposition where you're joining a
company that's on the rise andyou're seen as a valuable part
of it, you're given a piece ofequity or anything like.
You should have a lawyer lookat it One hundred percent.
A lawyer look at it 100.

(16:08):
The challenge on the flip sideis lawyers are designed to
protect you to the like nthdegree and they're paid to do
that and it becomes really hardto make.
This is now I'm speaking as aformer ceo business owner who
sold a business and had to gothrough that process delineating
between or making a decisionbetween do I want to trust the
people I'm partnering withversus listening to my lawyer

(16:32):
who is trying to protect me inevery facet possible?
It's a really delicate dance todo, because they usually
contradict do because theyusually contradict.
And, for example, like in mycase, as we were going through
our deal with Artbest, therewere like hundreds of things

(16:52):
where our lawyer was like youshouldn't sign this, like this
is bad for you.
And I would go to Artbest andsay, hey, they don't want me to
sign this.
And they're like, well, wecan't do it, we're a public
company, we have to have itstructured this way.
And when you get that over andover again we're a public
company, we have to have astructure this way you get to a
place where you either have totrust that they need to be

(17:12):
protected that way and I have togive up that and trust that
that won't hurt me in the end oryou'd go with your lawyers and
say, hey, I'm not protectedenough, and then a deal never
gets done.
You know the end result.
One of the things that Iremember my lawyer saying to me
was he was like the way this iswritten, they could turn you
into the janitor the day afteryou sell the company and there's

(17:33):
nothing you could do about it.
And I said that to Dan Lowe andhe was like why would we make
you the janitor?
I'm like I understand youwouldn't, but this says you
could and you know I chose totrust and they didn't make me
the janitor.
But you know I got fired so itdidn't exactly work in my favor,
but I think I played a role inthat.
But I just it's a, it's achallenge, right.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, I mean you're right and I think you have to.
You have to figure out and thisgoes in whether it's you as an
employee or the company.
You always have to figure outwhat is the business
practicality of this particulartopic.
And attorneys are there, asthey call them counsel, for a
reason.
They're there to give counseland you've got to make a
business decision.

(18:15):
They shouldn't be making thebusiness decision.
I had almost the inverse happena few months ago.
Someone that's a really goodfriend of mine and we started
talking about some business andthey took some advice from an
attorney that I thought was kindof an overreach and as things
were getting going and wereached an impasse and you know,

(18:36):
I think in hindsight heprobably thinks that you know
that was he should have appliedmore business logic rather than
just you, than just the attorney, because the attorney will kill
the deal.
We went away as friends andwe're still good friends.
I'm cheering for him, but youcan't ever get it perfect.

(18:57):
There are always differentsituations.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
I have one more question, well, two more
questions one on Global Transand then one on just kind of
overarching LTL brokerage.
You mentioned that Global Transhad this kind of magic to it,
and Global Trans is a companythat someone I think I've heard
a few times of like the GlobalTrans mafia, and it just seems
like there are a lot of reallytalented and successful people

(19:26):
that have come out of that world, the same way that people look
at Coyote and other companiesand say there are all these
things that were born out ofthat organization.
You and Project 44 are a greatexample of that, having had
experience at Global Trends, andI'm just curious what was the
magic at Global Trends?
Why was it such a successfulbusiness?

(19:47):
Why was it growing 100% yearover year?

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, there were probably a couple of things to
that, but what I think Andrew'ssuperpower was is that he I'd
say there were two of them isthat he was able to take a bit
of a misfit misfits that had,you know, high, high potential
and get some vector and resultsout of them.
And the second was he's a good,good product guy, visionary guy

(20:15):
, and so I think that thatworked well.
He also had an approach which Ihad never seen anything like it
before, where you, you know, ifyou look at hindsight, he
probably made a bet on thousandsand thousands of people that
didn't work out and he wouldjust cut them loose ultra
quickly.
And, coming from more of acorporate world, I remember the

(20:36):
first time I was like wait, thatperson just started like 17
days ago.
I was like, ah, it's not goingto work out for him.
I was like whoa, like a yellow,like you know, you had to
really like misquote it for likea year and stuff Like.
So I think I think that kind offormula together.
And then we were all reallyobsessed with the product and
the technology and there was aguy named Abishak who Brad

(20:58):
Berlin found I think it wascalled Elance back then and it's
up work now.
There's like just one, onelittle engineer.
He ended up building a hugecompany called Dream Orbit,
turned into hundreds ofengineers in Bangalore but he
was certainly a lot of secretsauce on building that and now
he's gone on to build an agentcompany called Lunapath ai and I
think that company will bereally successful also.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
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So that's a really interestingcomment around the willingness
to fire someone after 17 daysand it's it's interesting to me

(22:29):
I, when I think about that was abig flaw for us at Molo is we
gave people way too long of aleash.
I don't know why I had thismindset where when I, when I saw
someone not doing well, myfirst thought was how are we
failing them?
Failing them, how are we notsetting them up enough for
success?
And it really took five years.
It wasn't until in the lastyear I was in the business that

(22:51):
I remember telling someone.
Like one of the leaders waslike I want us to be more like
TQL Not like in totality, butthere's something about the
ruthless nature by which theybring you aboard and say show me
you can swim, and then, if youcan't, got to get them out
before they become like thiskind of answer to the culture.

(23:11):
And it's probably a spectrumbetween like giving someone way
too long of a leash and thenbeing that ruthless, but I do
think it's a.
I think this is an industry,especially on the sales side,
where you can know prettyquickly if someone is going to
have what it takes to succeed.
If they're willing to put inthe effort that's like step one
right out the gate.

(23:32):
Are they willing to actuallybang the phones and bang their
head against the wall, knowingthat they're going to bleed
before they see anythingpositive come out of it, before
they see anything positive comeout of it?
And so I don't know.
I appreciate that commentarybecause I see that as, like, a
fundamental flaw in how I ran mybusiness was you let people

(23:54):
hang around long enough who areC players, d players, not adding
enough value.
It brings the whole businessdown.
It tells the people around themthat it's okay to slack off, to
push things out, and it justdoes not create the kind of
culture you want.
Now it doesn't mean you have tofire everybody after 17 days,
but I think there's a happymedium where you give people

(24:17):
fair expectations out the gateand they have to prove that they
want to be there and arecapable, and then, once they've
done that, you give them all thesupport in the world to to
reach the highest levels.
But getting out the bad applesearly is is definitely a
valuable trait that.
I could see why that helped,yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah.
I'm not going to pretend Ihaven't totally figured it out,
and I think one of the biggestchallenges is the labor market's
constantly changing also, sowhere you are on that spectrum
and how you think about it hasto be different.
That's probably if there'scomments on this podcast or
something, people probably startcriticizing.
Uh, certainly around now,around around this point, but if

(25:00):
labor markets are tight,especially for roles and things
you need, you might have tocompromise on some of these
points.
But generally speaking, like atProject 44, we've always been a
performance culture.
Global Trans was a performanceculture.
I've tried to have more empathythan say, like what we had at
Global Trans and more tools forsuccess.

(25:20):
But there is a reality thatsome people are really good at
interviewing and not so good onthe job, so you'd hope that you
could identify the traits andtalk to people about what it
takes to be successful, becauseit's really expensive to hire on
board, especially in tech.
Like our average cost peremployee, I think it's like 156
000 or something like it'sreally high, and then you have

(25:41):
ramp time and everything.
So, um, but you also look likelike it.
Let's.
It's june 19th of 2025.
A year ago, I told everyone inthe company, like you know, ai
is coming.
We're gonna make ai ops ai goto market ai native company and
we've invested in a lot oftraining and when I look at like

(26:03):
how we are today and what I'vebeen messaging really since
probably about January orFebruary is you could have been
an excellent employee for thelast you know, team member for
the last two or three years.
But if you are not learningthese new skills that we're
investing in, if you're notbecoming AI first, if your first
thing is I need to hire a newperson, rather than what than?
How can I put together some ofthese tech stacks that we've

(26:26):
made available?
You're not competitive anymore.
I appreciate what you've done,but you've got to adjust.
I think some people are reallyembracing that and they love
that.
They can come to Project 44 andget probably more AI training,
certainly than anyone else inthe Midwest.
I think it would probably betop, top percentile over over on

(26:49):
the in the Bay area.
But what do you do with someonelike that?
Someone's been great for maybetwo or three years and then you
know.
But their role is so muchdifferent now and what my
expectations are.
I have a little bit of patiencewith them, but at the same time
, I won't have enough patiencewhere they can stick around for
six more months or nine moremonths.
at this point we're getting tothe end of that fuse and change

(27:13):
the map.
In fact, I sent an email to thecompany yesterday of people
that haven't completed their AItraining and it's disappointing
and, to be honest, it's hoursand hours and hours and hours of
training.
But you know, in my opinionit's the basics.
Like if you're not using theseproducts, it's kind of like not

(27:33):
being able to use email.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
So essentially what you're saying is you've kind of
given your team at some point inthe last year like a lessons or
the ability to take lessons onAI and get trained on it, and
it's it's kind of like I don'tknow the same way that we would
get emails about like harassment, training, like you have to do
this training or you're notcompliant.

(27:56):
Like have you kind of is thatkind of the lay of the land
where you've given them allthese tools and it's like hey,
go, use them at your go, learnthem at your disposal but please
learn them.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
I think that's really interesting.
Hopefully it's a little bitmore fun than the HR training.
For sure, there are dates inthere.
There's the basic things on howto use Copilot, how to use
ChatGPT Pro, how to use Workardo, how do you build agents
internally.
It's something that gets fairlyadvanced.
How do you shift your mindsetinto AI operations?

(28:29):
And let me just bifurcate forthe listeners out there.
Of course you have your techteam, where the product has had
AI in it for years.
I bought an AI company for $65million four and a half years
ago, so that was before thinkingback then.
The AI product side is onething, but what I'm talking

(28:50):
about right now is AI operations, ai go-to-market.
How are you getting moreleverage out of your team?
We operate the business withOKRs.
Here.
We have five objectives, andone of them is I want 25%
efficiency with AI in thisfiscal year which ends in
January, and that doesn't justmean cost reduction, that's
increased revenue, beat boardnumbers, et cetera.

(29:12):
And yeah, you know so there's652 team members right now and
you know there was like 30 or so.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
That hadn't completed it.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Let's call it 10 hours of training.
So it's like well, you guys,it's disappointing.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
And so people might have some really good reasons.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
Maybe they were out, maybe they were um vacation,
holiday, paternity leave orwhatever it was.
Maybe they're really busygetting, you know, some product
delivered.
But I think it just goes backto like this point of like
what's the tolerance level rightnow?
What are you willing totolerate?
We are a performance cultureworld.
We're always be a performanceculture.
We weren't necessarily aperformance culture in 2021 and

(29:49):
2022.
I had taken some bad advice, uh, and of course I'm accountable
for it.
But, uh, you know, bringing inthe professional managers and
things and um, you know, but andwe've, we've paid a heavy,
heavy tax for that.
But, like we, we certainly areback to our days of used
performance culture.
That comes with expectations.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
So, since you brought us to P44, I think let's spend
the rest of our time here, but Ithink I do want you to take us
back to the origin of P44.
And then I'll get back into allof this, because I think
there's so much meat here for usto talk about.
But for the listener whodoesn't know about your business
, I think it would be adisservice not to start with the
origin story of what you'rebuilding.

(30:33):
And you know, I guess, what wasthe original vision for the
business and what were youtrying to tackle.
When and how are youapproaching it?

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah.
So you know that first day atRoadway Express in Portland
Oregon, I was trying to get whycan't Nike and Roadway connect
to the internet and transmitdata?
You know that was 1999.
And it was just bizarre to meIn hindsight.
We had EDI set up but this isthis asynchronous technology
that has, you know, it's beingbatched in six hours, eight

(31:03):
hours, and basically my job wasthere to fill the gap of the EDI
batching six hour, eight hoursand basically my job was there
to fill the gap of the EDIbatching.
You fast forward to when Imanaged Walmart.
I think we had over 30operators that would just pass
information back and forth fromYRC to Walmart.
It was in my system, it wasn'tin their system and, not being a
technologist, it was difficultfor me to understand.
But hey, it was in the budgetand we had the people and

(31:24):
Walmart wanted it and we had it.
So literally just transferringdata back and forth and emailing
it spreadsheets or whatever itwas.
And bizarre, I know, but Iremember I went down to the EDI
department at Yellow I think itwas like on floor six or
something and said, hey, I don'tthink EDI is working like all
this stuff back and forth andthey do a big study and two

(31:45):
weeks later they say it'sworking absolutely perfectly
fine.
And it's like well then, whatis all this headache Like why do
I have all these invoices thatdon't match rate quotes and why
do I have to dispatch ordersmanually and why do I actually
have to take stuff and actuallygo to our website and enter in
the orders when it's alreadydispatched to us through EDI?
And for certain, like why arewe taking tracking screens?

(32:12):
Why are we manually doingexpedited orders?
Because the EDI 214 shows upafter the product's delivered?
These types of things.
I couldn't really ever figureit out.
You know, it was like back then.
It was kind of this idea like,well, that's the IT team and
that's what they said.
So frustrating.
But hey, I got more dockoperations and sales.
I guess I'll get back in mylane At Global Trans.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
What was really cool is that there were no lanes.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
There were also no rules about anything, which was
the wildest thing, so you justhad to kind of go in and
survival of the fittest.
And I remember Abishak cameover to the United States for
the first time and back then Iwas pretty ethnocentric.
Individual right, Exposure tocultures and things like that
were pretty, pretty limited, youknow, through upbringing and

(32:53):
travel.
I I never even left the country, maybe at that point in my life
, not other than Mexico, andjust just you just said seeing
the beautiful city of Kansascity.
Yeah, you know Indianapolis,phoenix, you know wherever I
could drive, you know a tank ofgas and you look at Abishag and

(33:17):
I remember dropping off at thehotel and I was like that looks
kind of sad being dropped offthere.
And the next day I thought, hey, man, like why don't you come
stay at my house?
And we're in Phoenix.
And he's like, yeah, thatsounds good.
And he comes into my house andI had a down comforter and
really dark hardwood floors backthen and it had some leaks out
of the small two bedroom condoand some feathers were coming

(33:39):
out.
I remember he walked in, hestarts walking around my house
and this really bizarre thingand he looks at me, he goes
really bizarre thing.
And he looks at me, he goeswhere's chicken?
And I'm like what are youtalking about, dude?
And he's looking for a chickenin my house because culturally
you know, for him like thatwould be a normal thing if you
see feathers.
But just my down comforter kindof like leaked a couple
feathers in the house, not adark card with forest.
So it really started like, like, like shocked me and the idea

(34:00):
with him being there is that Ijust want to learn about tech,
like ride with me in the car toand from the office and I just
want to ask you a lot ofquestions.
And at Global Trans, what youquickly realize is that at every
about $500,000 of revenue wehad to hard code and FTE and on
the operations side, because ithad this beautiful UI that we

(34:21):
built where you could get ratequotes for LTL and dispatch and
tracking, but behind the scenesis really a mechanical turd and
you could never really get thescale or efficiency that you
would think a business like thatwould be possible.
And we made improvements thereand I think we worked with what
we had in budgets and things andI think that was an impressive

(34:44):
situation.
But it wasn't until I'd alwayssound like a Echo or Coyote or,
you know, ch Robinson, likethese guys had it figured out.
We just couldn't get it figuredout at Global Trends, when I
had the consulting company and Igot to go consult for all these
different brokers and I thinkit was probably like 50 or 60 of
them when I realized that noneof them had it figured out.

(35:05):
All of them are reliant on theseold EDI systems.
All of them are batching.
All of them are reallymechanical Turks behind the
scenes where people are justplugging holes with fingers.
And that's when I startedlooking around at, like other
industries.
How can I swipe a credit cardand get a notification almost
immediately on your bank account?
How can you book a flight in aseat and reserve it and you show

(35:33):
up and most likely that's theseat that you have like?
How is this information beingtransmitted?
And what I realized?
Well, this is an api and um.
Of course we all know apis now,but back then nobody really knew
much about apis and nobodyreally talked about them, and so
I just got a lot of inspiration.
So what?
What if there was a one to manyAPI layer?
And think of all the things wecould fix in LTL.
And I had only minor exposureto truckload at that point in my

(35:55):
career, and so I just saidlet's build this, let's fund it.
And it's the old classic storyI was funding it, I had enough
money to get it going, but techis expensive and you have to
forward deploy a lot of capitalto build out tech, and I was in
the West Loop and I had thetitle to my condo as one of my

(36:15):
prizes out of the global transthing and some other real estate
deals and what was happening isProject 44 is bleeding me dry.
I mean the over.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
When was this?

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Just for a timeline eight years ago, so you know 17
2017 okay, yeah, it's justbleeding me dry.
I mean I think I was writing150 250 000 dollar a month
checks and, um, I had soldwatches and cars and motorcycles
and everything I could, and thelast thing I had was my title
to the house and I was like, allright, let's or condo, let's
see if I can borrow on this.
But you know, that was kind ofthe journey that we went on with

(36:52):
that and we eventually gotfunding and that's what allowed
us to start expanding into othermodes.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
But it really started with that LTL and let's build a
one-to-many API platform.
And what were you seeing?

(37:19):
What was the initial?

Speaker 2 (37:20):
reaction in the market to this one-to-many API
connection platform.
On the LTL side, who were youselling it to?
The brokers?
I assume and in hindsight I gotthis a little bit wrong.
I thought that you could takeall buyers of transportation and
apply them on the innovationbell curve and I got that wrong.
What really, in hindsight it is, is that the first movers and
the innovators were the brokers,and that's who we sold to.

(37:44):
When I'd show up was a reallylarge paint company on the east
coast when we could get luckyenough to get shipper meetings.
Uh, they always fell flat,never where they were.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
I mean they couldn't understand this.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
This data as a service this data platform that
we had.
We try to explain it withwhiteboards and powerpoints, but
back then, like people actuallyjust couldn't comprehend what
it was, and but the brokerscould, and I think it's because
they work off such small marginsand you know they're always
looking for that nextcompetitive advantage.
So even to this day, I think outof the top 100 brokers, 82 of

(38:18):
them use project 44.
That's not our core focusanymore and we gladly take that
revenue and we're appreciativeof it from them, but it's it's,
but it's the shippers nowadays,but the brokers embraced it and
the shippers didn't understandit and yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
And how do you change that?
Like, how did the businessevolve to a place where the
shipper became the primarycustomer?
Having been someone who justdidn't understand it in the
early days, like what?
How did that transformationtake place?

Speaker 2 (38:54):
well.
So back then we were reallyworking on ltl and you know the
n of ltl carriers is probably150, but there's really you know
, 25, 50 that matter.
And with my experience what Iwas most interested in was all
the way from the rate quote tothe invoice across the entire
workflow, like how can you putan API across that in its

(39:16):
entirety?
Because there's friction on allthose spots.
And tracking was never reallythat high on my radar because
the EDI tracking was kind oflike the 214.
It was kind of like good enoughin most cases, but certainly
not always.
And I think I walked out ofSherwin-Williams I think was the
company, the paint company andI tried exploring it.

(39:41):
They were really struggling tounderstand what it was the EDI
and what would happen.
You'd go into thetransportation it would be
transportation folks and thenthey'd bring in their IT guy,
which really was their EDI guy,and so you'd try to go in and
you'd say, hey, like you want touse APIs, that's better than.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
EDI.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
I remember the guy pulled me across at the end of
the meeting.
He's like, hey, kid, he's gotgray hair and he's like
basically get the F out of here.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
He's like well, I just spent 10 years building
this EDI thing.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
It's beautiful.
I retire in like nine months,like come back then, like you
know, get out of here with thisAPI talk.
But it was also like reallyclear that that's like signal
from the market, right, like if?
you're frustrated that yourproduct's not selling out there
or whatever it is.
You know, look, look in themirror what's your message or
what's your product, or how areyou?

(40:29):
How are you adjusting it?
And what we realized is is that, well, we need, we need to put
a UI on this and if we wantshippers to, to be interested in
it.
And you know, I think that thatwas big because there were
other companies out there thathad UIs, um, somewhat flashing
uis back then, and they weregrowing faster than us.

(40:50):
It was really frustrating forme because I said, well, wait,
this all starts about highquality data.
The industry doesn't needanother application, certainly
could use a ux overhaul, butbeing an operator was always
data data was the problem, andso we got in that ui.
And then the second adjustmentwas just thinking about back
then.
That's when the Obamaadministration starts to require

(41:12):
ELDs and so truckload starts tobe more available GPS.
If you were listening to themarkets then and I think
Forkites did a good job withthis is they kind of took this
tracking plus ETA and called itvisibility, and which I always
thought well, that's reallypassive If you're just looking
at a transportation side, but atthe end of the day, that's what

(41:33):
shippers wanted.
First is they wanted to know,hey, where's my stuff and when's
it going to arrive?
And so we leaned into that, notonly on LTL and truckload in
the U?
S.
But then we made kind of, Ithink, an an aggressive move.
We were only 70 people and weacquired a company for $23
million in Europe that hadvisibility or 600 telematics

(41:55):
connections in Europe.
So we go to the shippers andsay, hey, we can do ground
transportation for you in Europeand the United States,
visibility.
And that started to resonate alot more.
And then we just got some majortailwinds like COVID and the
Suez Canal, and we made someother acquisitions that we were
able to lean into.

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When you say that Forecastlooked at visibility as tracking

(43:19):
plus ETA and it felt like youkind of have a different opinion
of what visibility should be.
Can you elaborate on what thatin your mind's eye, what that
looks like or what's missingfrom that?

Speaker 2 (43:34):
So John Irvin posted about our new release last week
which, you know, decisionintelligence platform is how
we're going to market now and wehave we've tried to get out of
just visibility for years.
We tried one called highvelocity about three years ago
and I think that that certainlyfailed and so we've wrapped that
up.
But visibility itself I'vealways known like isn't

(43:57):
somewhere I started.
It's not what I wanted, but Iwanted to meet the market where
it is and the data you get fromit is incredibly valuable to
create other, to make decisions,which is why we're now a
decision intelligence platformfrom a marketing standpoint.
But on John's comment, someonesays well, visibility is this or
visibility is that, and I so Istarted, I just started asking

(44:18):
the comments what doesvisibility mean to everybody?
Because it means differentthings to everyone, which we
have certainly got in troublewith not clearly defining it
before.
But I would look at it nowadaysfrom our perspective.
I think of visibility in kindof two main ways.
You have transportationvisibility, that's where's my
truck, where's my container,where's that you know, dray,

(44:40):
where's that, where's thatshipment.
And then you have in transit,inventory visibility, which is
where's that PO, where's thatpart number, where's that sales
order?

Speaker 1 (44:51):
That's just a layer deeper right.
So it's basically not justwhere is the truck, but what is
in that truck.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
That's right yeah.
And if you can go end-to-endlike we can, from inland China
to really anywhere in the world,or from Vietnam or Indonesia or
US to anywhere in the world,what you can do is you can
stitch these multiple modestogether across all geographies
and then you can really bettermanage your inventory that's in
motion and of course the valueprop on that to shippers is

(45:20):
outrageously high.
The mode is very, very bigbecause this is a network
business at the end of the day,and nowhere in the company in
the world has the geographiesand the modes that we have.
So no one can offer thatinventory in motion to as many
global 2000s like we can andwhen you can do that what
shippers can do is they canreduce their inventory and
there's almost two trilliondollars of excess inventory

(45:42):
system right now and there's alot of reasons as to why we
could talk about but that itseems like every cfo wants to
take their slice out of that,and I was.
We had a large, reallyprogressive shipper called alcon
the guy's name's kurt and hewas at gartner.
He said this on stage, I thinkI can repeat it, but by using

(46:04):
project 44, he took one day'sinventory out.
So you know, here's a $9billion, you know revenue
company takes a day of inventoryout.
It's like what does that equal?
Well, for a company like that,that's somewhere between about
$10 to $15 million of cost thatcomes out.
Well, that's very, very highvalue add, but that is certainly
a lot more than here's a truckwith an ETA.
You've got to be much moredialed into that.

(46:28):
So when I hear people bashvisibility, maybe it's right or
it's wrong, but I think thefirst question is we'll first
define it and then let's talkabout why, because there are a
lot of reasons as to why.
There's reasons why we gotreally big trouble in 2023 and
why were we in big trouble in2023.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
So do people bash visibility and then like what,
why, like what?

Speaker 2 (47:00):
what is the knock on it?
Or perceived knock?

Speaker 1 (47:04):
well, I'm not sure if I'll be able to capture all of
them here.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Uh, I'd have to write them down.
Give me one or two.
I think visibility bashing isprobably the number one bashing
that happens in the industry.
Maybe I feel like that becauseit's directed towards me, maybe
I get a disproportionate amountof it, or maybe people send it
over my way.
I think there's a couple ofreasons.

(47:28):
One, it's first defining.
People will say it's low,people say it doesn't work.
It's like okay, that's onereason.
Someone will say the ROI can betough.
Someone will say smarter.
People say the data isdifficult to aggregate.
Uh, and so these can all bereally valid reasons, but one of

(47:53):
the primary reasons as to whysome of those things happen is
that most, if you're selling toa vp or sv, well, let's first.
If we're talking about thebroker cohort which we don't
sell to any brokers or managethe accounts.
Managing the accounts that wehave, we purposely have churned
out over 300 of them over thelast 24 months.
We've kept the really big,strategic ones like DSV and
Hellman Logistics and Coyote anda couple of companies like that

(48:16):
, and there's a whole reason forthat.
But generally speaking, thoseare going to be single modes and
a very tactical buyer andthey're also very susceptible to
the cyclical nature of theindustry.
So if their contracts come upwhen you're in a down market,
they're probably going to want,you know, say hey, we have 20%
less volume, we want less this,and that's really bad for a SaaS

(48:38):
business from like an NRR grossretention standpoint, which is
really what drives the revenueof the business.
The other thing is is thatthere's always going to be some
me and you could go start avisibility, a transportation
visibility company.
Today with 10 engineers, wecould stand up some load and go
undercut project 44 by fivecents a container or whatever.

(48:58):
Whatever it is a truck, ashipment now we do that because,
hey, we could run that out ofyour your, out of your house and
but you know, when you'retalking about running a real
global, multi-modal visibilitycompany like I, have to have
international tax people and youknow international operations,
people around the world.
So my cost structure is higherand the brokers have low margins

(49:19):
, or the foreigners, the lsps,and so naturally, if anyone can
do it for a penny cheaper,there's always kind of this
pricing pressure.
So you put those things, twothings combined and you and most
of them are a very fickle wirethat aren't very good at buying
technology and so you know, butthey are used to buying services
and they are used to like kindof pounding or pressing on a
vendor and kind of getting theirway or like somewhat of a

(49:43):
transactional nature, eventhough they have some strategic
relations.
Well, it's really hard to builda successful you know IPO log
tech company with that and youknow we're probably the largest
Gen 2 log tech company in theworld and you know.
So I feel like I've gone tothat ringer.

(50:04):
That's the LSP cohort, whichfreight forwarders, brokers,
3pls and like.
Again you get the good ones,the big ones, the ones that have
project management skills andsome maturity to them.
They're great and they'reinterested in like unlocking use
cases and solving problems andkind of moving on to value

(50:25):
outcomes for the customersrather than what can they get
for a penny cheaper when you goto the shippers.
There's some things that aresimilar, which most people that
are in transportation supplychain departments have probably
only about one or twotechnologies in their entire
career, but they have spenthundreds of millions, often

(50:47):
billions, certainly, in theirlifetime, maybe even one year.
So a lot of leverage.
But if you also think aboutthem, what are they normally
buying from?
They're buying from servicebusinesses.
They're buying from Modelo,they're buying from a carrier
which, by definition, areservices business, and so
services businesses act and feela certain way, and when you're
building a tech platform,services businesses act and feel
a certain way, and when you'rebuilding a tech platform, that's

(51:10):
a different approach.
And so one thing we got inreally big trouble with is that
we somehow got accountable forthe carrier's data.
Now our platform is like a BYOB, but it's a BYOC.
Bring your own carrier.
There's 186 every day.
There's about 256,000 carriersin 186 countries, and you can

(51:31):
bring any carrier you want.
You can bring the big guy,fedex, dhl, jb Hunt, asset,
non-asset.
You also can bring a carrierthat's in, you know, italy right
now, that feeds his goats aweek and then goes and drives a
truck when the rates go up andthen goes and drives a truck
when the, when the rates go up,and then you know, parks it for
two, for two, for two two weeks,or in Indonesia or wherever,

(51:53):
and all of these carriers are ontheir own digitalization
journey.
That's happening and thatdigitalization is happening at
different, different paces andat this point pretty much all of
the big, large carriers have apretty effective digital

(52:13):
strategy.
But that certainly wasn't thecase in 2023.
If we think about 2023, thelargest shippers in the world
were begging carriers to back upwith trucks and containers.
And if you think about 2019,2020, 2021, 2022, those weren't
necessarily big innovation years.
You don't think of carriersbeing really innovative back in

(52:34):
those years either.
So you're kind of going intoCOVID with this previous years
of not huge innovation.
You come into COVID where thedemand side the shippers said,
hey, I want innovation forbetter outcomes, but they don't
really have a lot of leveragewith their carriers because they
can't even get a container.
So to dictate API quality ofthings is a problem.

(52:58):
And so I think it was naturalfor a VP of transport or chief
supply chain officer to look atproject 44 and go, hey, you know
, I've been buying services forX number of years, p44, you go
fix the data with the carriersand it's like well.
I have no leverage in thatsituation, like I can't, I can't
fire them.

(53:19):
I can't, I can't.
I can't do that.
I can give you reports onperformance.
I can do project management.
I can apply best practices.
I can do that.
I can give you reports onperformance.
I can do project management.
I can apply best practices.
I can talk to the carriers andhelp them develop their APIs.
But it really comes down to whenthe rubber hits the road.
I don't have leverage and backin the height of the market I
was spending $32 million a yeartrying to get carriers data

(53:39):
better and that's a lot of cashright, and because of that we
have this massive network andthings.
But that was obviously reallybig.
So I think on the shipper side,having bought technology don't
know platforms very well, andit's as ridiculous as when I

(54:00):
hear a customer say you bettergo get my carrier's data fixed.
That would be like callingBenny off at Salesforce.
I mean like, hey, salesforcedoesn't work and you go, well,
why doesn't it work?
And he says, well, my salesreps aren't typing in the
information and they're sayingthat the leads are bigger than
they are and what's qualified.
It's like, well, that's a salesrep compliance.

(54:21):
This is a vendor compliancething.
So those are kind of thereasons I haven't bought tech,
don't know how to apply leverage, but most of that is behind us
now.
And there's a third thing isthat, if you think about it in
visibility, the carrier is theprimary source of data, and the

(54:42):
primary source of data is notalways going to be great and
probably about 20 months ago Iactually kind of got pretty sad
about the business and I waslike dude, I don't think this is
going to work.
Like just staring down thebarrel of like obstacles that
are I've never actually been.
I actually have never beenscared in my entire career.
Like I've been nervous.
I looked down and go, oh fuck,like this thing is, I don't know

(55:07):
, this thing's big, I'm not surewe're going to be able to get
this right.
And then, as we started usingmore voice and messaging agents
and cameras and all kinds ofother technologies to improve
and enhance the primary sourceof data the carriers as we built
more tooling for customers tobe able to better manage data,
everything kind of lined up andbecame a lot better.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
There was so much meat in that answer.
Thank you, first of all.
I've got like 18 things I wantto talk to you about now.
Let me first just get this outof the way, because I thought
this was really interesting.
You talked about this kind ofprice war that seemed to be
going on, and it's interestingbecause I was talking to I don't

(55:52):
remember who I was talking tothis past week about all the AI
companies coming into the spacenow, whether they're focused on
scheduling or taking inboundcalls, and people compared it.
They said you know, I thinkwe're going to go through the
same type of race to the bottomprice war for these tools that,
like the visibility companieswent through a few years ago.

(56:15):
So, like, what I'm curious islike did you actually, was that
actually a problem?
You had to navigate where you'dgo sell to a customer and
they'd basically be like well,we're interested, but Fork
Heights is offering us a pennyless.
Will you come down?
Was that a serious issue?

Speaker 2 (56:34):
you guys were navigating a buyer there on the
broker side.
You had a lot of conversationsof you know contracts renewal,
and say a company like macropoint, uh, was, was really more

(56:55):
the company there.
Or trucker tools, and then say,hey, we've got, we've got them.
It's a penny cheaper for, say,say, truckload, or another
company for ocean visibility.
But when you then you go, well,they're not really the same
thing, like, for instance, we'rea very API-first company into
the carrier's operating system,and if you can't do that, then

(57:16):
we're telematics second.
And the third is like, let's usea mobile app, and mobile apps
have their challenges, but theycertainly have their strengths
too.
Well, macropoint is primarily,oh, a mobile app, and mobile
apps have their challenges, butthey certainly have their
strengths too.
Well, macropoint is primarily amobile app, and mobile app is
certainly the cheapest from acost of goods standpoint, and so
they naturally are going to beless expensive and they also

(57:36):
have a primarily domesticsolution.
So the R&D cost and thinkingabout GDPR and pulling these
things together in stitchy modes, it's just a lower cost
structure that they have in thatmodel.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
I don't think.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
ForkHite's really ever got a ton of traction in
that space for various reasons,but I could be proven wrong with
that when you're talking withnew shippers out there it
probably still is, but not, notnot as much.
Very competitive price for fornew logos, um, and generally

(58:14):
speaking four guys is alwaysgoing to be cheaper than us.
I mean they have um one.
They're not a global company,despite the marketing and
everything that they say.
So I mean running a trulyglobal operational business has
a higher cost structure.
We have employees in Japan.
We have employees in China.
We have employees in LatinAmerica.
We have 200 employees in Europe.
If you've ever done a Europeanlabor law, it's awful.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
They're tricky.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
You've got to learn new skills, and so I think we go
head to head with global deals.
We win the large majority ofthem because we can prove, you
know that we're actually theglobal company, but they will
certainly come in at a lowerprice point.
So then you're trying to sayyou know what's the difference

(58:59):
here and you know what's thevalue, and yet start breaking
out these, these different valuecomponents.
But again, I do think thatvisibility unless you're talking
about inventory in transitvisibility it's a bit passive
and you get incredible data thatallows other products to work.
But it's kind of like we thinkof the product now in four

(59:22):
different steps.
The first is connect, which isthat data platform which no
other company in the world hasthat.
The second is C, whichvisibility falls in there.
And the third is to act orexecution, and then the fourth
is how do you automate that?
So I think we're in a reallyunique position because, like,
for instance, all of theirvisibility companies started at
first, and then how they connectthe data was a secondary

(59:43):
thought.
Remember I started with let'sfix the data problem and then
we'll build applications on top.
So that gives us so much morerunway than I think, anyone else
out there in the market.
But nowadays we see them lessand less out in the market and
our customers are looking moreon how can they have next gen
TMS, how can they integrate allof this into their YMS and their

(01:00:06):
appointment scheduling?
How can they also havetransportation and inventory and
transit visibility?
How can they have an e-commerceexperience?
How can they make betterdecisions?
How can they improve their cashflow, their customer experience
, so we can offer businessoutcomes that other companies
can't, offer business outcomesthat other companies can't.
And I think when we are able toarticulate that and we can't

(01:00:27):
always then we're able to showeasily a 10 or 20x ROI, which is
quite significant for tech andsince no one else in the world
can actually offer that, it'snot as price competitive on that
approach.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
At Molo we built a great company and I'm proud of
the work we did.
We knew when to ask for helpand sometimes that meant going
outside of our own company.
I'm proud we built an ecosystemof trusted partners like
Metaphora.
When we needed differentiatedindustry expertise in business
consulting or technologyservices, we looked at Peter
Ryan and the team at Metafora.
They've consistently deliveredvalue in the transportation and

(01:01:08):
logistics space for over adecade for mid-market and
enterprise brokers, for shippers, carriers, private equity and
freight tech companies.
At Molo we use Metafora tosolve problems we simply
couldn't on our own.
Metafora is the only partneryou should trust to help you win
, whether that's doing ops andtech diligence, growing revenue,
optimizing spend or selectingand building software.

(01:01:30):
Go check them out atmetaforanet that's
M-E-T-A-F-O-R-Anet.
I wanted to ask about thisbefore, but it has very
naturally now come up.
Is you mentioned buying this,this company in Europe, and
essentially becoming a globalcompany?
And I am curious because whenyou talked about visibility, you

(01:01:53):
talked about being able tosupport like end to end from you
know whether it's Shenzhen orwhoever in China all the way to
you.
Know your doc in Chicago?
Did you know when you werebuying the whoever in China?
All the way to your dock inChicago.
Did you know when you werebuying the company in Europe
that that was kind of what wouldbecome essentially a
differentiator for you, or whatwas the initial kind of reason

(01:02:15):
for going to Europe?
Start there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
Yeah.
So at that point in time, onthat first acquisition it was, I
want to just create a differentoffering and say what, what,
what Forkites could could have.
So Forkites was really good attruckload at that point in time.
We were really good at LTL.
Um, they had a partnership withuh SMC3 and we were, like you
know, learning truckload pretty,pretty quickly.

(01:02:42):
They had a better looking uithan we did, but we certainly
had better data and so it's likeokay, but now you're kind of
into this competitive price sellback and forth.
So how can I, how can I reallyseparate ourselves?
and to me that was europe,because it seemed like the
global businesses would be thehigh ground and so they would

(01:03:03):
have operations in europe andthat that seems like the second
reason I acquired them is, youknow, I'd only been to europe at
that point one time in my life.
It was like the, it was likethe 101 europe traveling.
I went to rome it was italyright with my girlfriend went to
rome, I went to mafia coast andlike that was my, that was my
europe experience.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
So you bought a european company so you could
become a world traveler.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Well, I travel a lot, I experience cultures a lot,
but I don't know if I yeah, Idon't get to vacation a lot
internationally, so just doing aGDPR to me was very different
and foreign.
In the US back then, there wasprobably about 50 telematics

(01:03:50):
companies, and maybe 10 thatmattered, and in Europe, though,
this company had 600 telematicscompanies that were connected
to, and I was like whoa, andthere's just even different ways
that data flows in Europe, andthis is a Danish company.
It's called Gatehouse.
I thought it was reallyinteresting.

(01:04:10):
I walked in and I had never evenbeen to Denmark and I was like
okay, I see, like the engineers,I see the customer success,
like have we seen the wholeoffice?
And they're like, yeah, and I'mlike, well, where's like
where's sales office?
And they're like, yeah, and I'mlike, well, where's like
where's sales?
And I go, we don't have sales.
And I was like, well, why don'tyou have, uh, sales?
And they're like, well, wedon't like when we call people
sometimes and they say no.

(01:04:31):
And so I was like, well, how doyou get your business?
And they're like it's just allreferral.
And I was like can you say thatagain?
Like how does it work?
And like I'm looking and theyhave ds, which is obviously the
largest freight forward in theworld.
Now it wasn't back then, but itwas significant that Amazon
Europe had always like reallyhigh operating.
I was like, all right, let's,let's buy this company.

(01:04:51):
I think they were 3 million inARR.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
I mean that's about the best thing you can hear from
someone is that all theirbusiness comes from referrals
and they have the best companiesas customers.
I mean that tells you all youneed to know about the quality
that exists within that business.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
That's right, so that was a good one.
If we look at that product'sall aggregated now, if we look
at that European business now,it's probably 10 to 15X the size
it was.
So if you apply a 10 multipleon it, I think it turned out
well, very nice.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
All right, then, the last thing before we go to the
decision intelligence platformjust because you brought it up a
couple times, um 2023 being ashitty year or a tough year, and
and I think you said you know,maybe 20 months ago, which would
have been 2023, I think feelinglike this thing might fail.
Yeah, can you talk to me aboutthat?
Like one, I'm curiousemotionally, what was it like?

(01:05:47):
Because there's a part of mewonders, like you've, as someone
, you and I seem like we havesimilar stories and that we kind
of came up in the industry butdidn't have some pedigree like
some you know master's degree orsomething that someone, nobody
would look at us and think likethese guys could run.
You know billion dollarcompanies or anything like that.

(01:06:08):
So, like part of me wonders is,your business has continued to
grow and you've raised moremoney.
It's like at what point do youfeel like this thing is beyond
what you know how to deal with?
And is that kind of what youwere feeling in 2023?
Where that's like, oh crap,where am I?
What are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
Is this going to work ?
Yes, there's.
There's a lot to unpack inthere and I'll try to do the
best best I can um without,without missing anything.
You know, at one point we hadlike 1200 employees.
I'd taken the cheap advice likebringing the professional
management team, you know kindof step out of the way, let them
do their job.
You're kind of you know you'reyou know you kind of step out of
the way, let them do their job.
You're kind of you know you'rethe logistics guy, subject

(01:06:47):
matter expert.
It was really bad advice inhindsight.
I mean, those guys blew cash,wasted money, made awful
decisions, created huge taxesfor the business.
I think you can maybe see somethings like that even in a
number of businesses.
And it was probably about thattime, maybe a little less than a

(01:07:13):
year and a half ago.
I remember the Airbnb founderkind of talked about this and I
just kind of looked at it andhe's like it's all going to be
like founder-led and thosethings started to kind of hit it
on me and it's like, all right,I should really get back in the
game more.
but those feelings back thenwere like man, what did I do?
I've got so many customers,like you know, big customers

(01:07:36):
that are counting on me.
I've got a lot of families thatare counting on me to feed them
and for most of my career, likethe businesses have been small
enough or where I can kind ofbend reality if I need to and
work really, really hard.
But when you have employees in40 countries you know, for

(01:07:59):
software we're in 186 countriesYou've got, you know, the most
prestigious investors in theworld on your cap table.
You got, you know all thesethings coming out and it's like
I just can't go, like workharder, like that's not the
answer.
So like what, what?
What is the solution?
How can I approach thisdifferently?

(01:08:21):
Um, to to grab, to get thebusiness back on track.
At the same time, like back then, you're also trying not to
operate out of like, say, fear,because that's not gonna help
you either.
But back then, to be honest, Iwas kind of scared.
I joke about it now becausewe're in an awesome spot but it

(01:08:42):
was like, will I be able to?
And you have those self-doubtslike, like I didn't graduate
from college, uh, I don't havean MBA.
Like, am I the person like forfor this?
I think.
I think eventually the answerbecomes yes, because the more I
get involved and when I cameback to Chicago and the more I
did it, the more I kind of gotsome of those empty suits out of
the way.
Things got better, and so itjust goes to show it's like you

(01:09:08):
have to be willing to change,you have to be willing to take
advice, you have to have mentors, you have to have, you have to
work on yourself, you've got toevolve in major, major ways and
you've got to work your ass off.
But, like you know, the limitsare often, are often you know
what you're willing to changeabout yourself and and all and

(01:09:28):
all of your daily routines,everything and and how you sleep
, when you sleep, how you travelwhen you travel, who you spend
your time with, like everythingaround.
If you're I think that ifyou're, if you're willing to put
that kind of passion in, Ithink humans have so much more
potential.
It's often like socialconstraints and fear and things
that really lock them into setroles in society or outcomes.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
What do you think has been the most impactful change
for you personally that hasallowed you to personally evolve
and help the business go fromyou thinking it was going to
fail 20 months ago to now likefeeling really good about it on
the personal side.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
So, um, well, what I like an amazing wife like my
wife is awesome, um, and so youjust can't, like it wouldn't be
possible without her to to dowhat, what I to do, what I do
I've got two, two young kids.
I think it was just um, I don'thave like any any one single

(01:10:32):
advice.
I mean it was some of it waslike I'd always been mostly in
shape.
My life.
Part of it was like I'm goingto be fat, like it was just like
counterintuitive to everythingI've always said Like you need
to be sharp, you need to be fit,like and it's like I'm just
gonna have to get fat becauseI'm just gonna have to work 20
hours a day.
And like I'm gonna have totravel on planes and eat shitty

(01:10:52):
food and be on the road 200 daysa year.
Like I need to go get closer tothe customers.
I need to go get out of thatcheap advice of let people
handle it, like I need to go getinto it and and then figure it
out.
The other thing, too is, um, Ididn't get a lot more serious
about talent that I'm bringingon to the team and the profile

(01:11:13):
of people and at the executivelevel and all areas, and I don't
need.
I had some really greatexecutives.
I don't want to put everyone inthat bucket in that time, but
I'll put some empty suits.
But what I really needed and wehave it now is I needed people
that were willing to come in andreally roll up their sleeves.

(01:11:35):
At the end of the day, we're astartup, we're a frontier
technology company.
We're doing something no oneelse in the world has ever done.
We are pushing the boundariesmore than anyone, and that
requires a certain certain typesof people.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
I've got to have at the table with me.
Yeah Well, I think that's agreat transition into now, the
decision intelligence platform.
So where I first heard aboutthis was on Twitter or X,
whatever it's called now.
Craig Fuller posted and I'mgoing to read what he posted and
you can tell me.
You can take it from there.
But I just got a copy ofProject 44's new business plan

(01:12:10):
and it's remarkably ambitious.
Jet's long-term vision is toposition Project 44 as the
operating system for thelogistics industry, seamlessly
integrating every component andshipment across a shipper's
network, all powered by AI.
This vision extends far beyondvisibility, which has become a
commodity in recent years.
P44, which is the category kingin visibility, has faced a

(01:12:32):
tough competitive landscapewhere companies have realized
that simple track and trace istable stakes.
They demand more automation.
However, the most intriguingaspect isn't the technology
itself.
It's how he thinks he canunlock significant growth by
going deeper into thetransaction layer.
Jet envisions P44 becoming aquote managed transportation
platform for the top 2,000global shippers, effectively

(01:12:55):
eliminating the need forcontracted logistics providers.
The most exciting feature for meis the shipment negotiation
tool, which enables carriers,brokers and forwarders to
participate in the P44 executionplatform.
Here, an AI agent negotiateswith carriers on behalf of
shippers.
Is that the end of it?
Nope, this feature will drive asignificant increase in spot

(01:13:15):
freight, allowing shippers toaccess lower cost spot rates
while working with pre-approved,vetted carriers.
I don't think it eliminates theRFP, but it does encourage
shippers to explore out optionsoutside of the routing guide
when conditions are favorable.
Talk to me about this bigvision.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
Yeah, yeah, that's that there's a lot in there.
I always like hearing fromCraig.
You know I shared with him thedecision intelligent platform
and you know, he's an innovativeguy.
He's an excellent entrepreneur,maybe one of the the best at our
generation in the, in logistics, um, arguably the most

(01:13:53):
influential person in, in our,in our, in our circle, um, and
he kind of he did jump the gunon some of those things.
He started asking a lot about alot of forward questions and so
, you know, through text I kindof answered some of these with
him, but so someone probably gota little bit lost in the method
on how we were communicating.

(01:14:13):
But we actually thought aboutyou know, should we go to market
with being an intelligentoperating system?
And we have those probablycapabilities right now, but is
it there or there?
And I think what we want to dois really meet the market where

(01:14:41):
the platform is at right now.
In a really honest way.
We weren't the first to say wewere doing AI and kind of this
current cohort, but we werecertainly doing it before
everyone else.
I thought everyone else lookedkind of silly out there with,
like changing their AI splashmessaging and everything, but
today we just want to have amuch more measured approach and
do it once we have really gooduse cases and outcomes.
You know, the shipper marketitself doesn't even move that

(01:15:02):
fast.
So why do we need to be on thetip of the spear with a press
release?
It's very likely we will becomethat operating system that the
decision intelligence willevolve into that operating
system, or well, on that path?
We have an incredible amount ofdata in our platform that takes
the bias out of decision makingIn our platform.

(01:15:24):
It takes the bias out ofdecision-making, and that bias
in decision-making often comesdown to a couple of things that
now, for the first time ever,are going to be quantified, so I
can tell you what a carrier'sdigital score is, which is
really important.
You know, the shipper's askingMolo for visibility and Molo
can't do it.
Well, it's a lot tougher forMolo to win more business and if

(01:15:49):
you can provide greatvisibility, you might be able to
get a higher pricing.
So there certainly is value inthat we also that digital score.
The second thing is that weknow where pretty much all the
trucks are at all the time andwe know what trucks are

(01:16:12):
performing well in eachindividual lane.
So we can see physical on-timeperformance better than anyone
else in the world.
No one else has the data set asbig as we do the world.
No one else has the data set asbig as we do.
And then you can start tosprinkle in other third-party
applications like Carrier,assure or Sonar or DAT or
whatever it is, to get ideaslike market rates and you can

(01:16:32):
build proprietary agents orvoice or message or use third
parties, and so that becomes areally interesting use case from
a platform standpoint, becausenow you can take quantifiable
decisions and start to helpsource trucks.
Now we have in a lot of ourcontracts with a lot of our lsps
that we're never going to getan mc brokerage authority or nvo

(01:16:53):
or whatever it is, because it'snot what we want to do.
But we have customers that cometo our platform, our tms
platform, and they get ratequotes and they tender and what
we can do is we can say, hey,have you considered this carrier
?
It might be better for you.
Now what we're doing with thatin betas is we're saying, okay,

(01:17:14):
how do we bring in one of ourbroker customers that's
preferred, and after thenegotiation is done, after the
information's all selected, giveit to that broker so they can
actually handle the finalprocedure.
We can even execute it.
And that's kind of the gray areathat you're still figuring out

(01:17:35):
on the legal side.
But on the insurance, on theauthority, let the broker take
some of that risk.
But the broker has essentiallyno CAC, no cost to acquire a
customer.
They don't have any operationalcosts to do that, and so what
we're able to give them is froma dollar amount of smaller

(01:17:56):
revenue, but from a profitmargin margin that their broker
gross margin percentages thatbroker has never seen before.
And so this starts to be aninteresting thing on, like what
is the right way to approachthat, and one of the largest,
most tech innovative brokers inthe world and us are working on
this right now.
Um, and I think, I think it'llbe really interesting.

(01:18:16):
But the days, uh, I saw ourcompetitor started posting jet
says he's gonna put all thebrokers out of business or blah,
blah, blah it blah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
Oh, I didn't see that .

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
I didn't find that.
There's always cheap stuff outthere.
Actually, what we're going todo, if you were to think about
it, is we're going to make ourcurrent broker customers a lot
more successful than theycurrently are.
We're going to give them morerevenue and more business with
no CAC.
That's a win for our brokercustomers.
If you aren't one of ourcustomers, yeah, you've got a

(01:18:50):
headwind there and we'llprobably end up getting business
sourced away from you anddirected towards some of our
customers.
The other thing that's in thereis that and perhaps it was said
out loud and whatever now we'llhave to defend it, but if
you're just a transactionalbroker and you think you're
going to be in business in 24months like you are delusional.

(01:19:11):
Uh, so you know, like that's atape, like you gotta, you have
to be way more than just like Igot a truck.
What else are you doing?
What are your value adds?
What's the culture of yourcompany?
How are you sourcing clients?
How are you reliable?
Like at Modo, you guys hadsomething.

(01:19:32):
I think it was like youwouldn't bounce loads, and I
remember the first company Iever heard of was Coyote.
That was such a novel ideawhatever 15 years ago.
That's a cultural standpoint.
Now you're actually insomething much more complicated.
You're in a long-termrelationship with customers, you
probably also are thinkingabout long-term relationships
with carriers more strategically.
You also have a hedge that's inyour business, so you have a

(01:19:54):
more sophisticated pricingalgorithms.
Then you have to have moresophisticated.
But if you're just I'm buying atruck, marketing up% and
selling it to someone that wantsit, like yeah, you're in big
trouble in two years.
So I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
I appreciate that thought.
So I argue with my partnerBogrich from time to time when
we talk about the future andhe's like, well, we could just
wait for our non-compete to endand open a new brokerage which
is a year and a half from now.
And I'm like dude, I don't knowif it's going to be the same.
Like I think I think we couldleverage our brand enough to
build a business.

(01:20:27):
But like I think you know, justbeing a broker is going to be,
if you're not already anestablished broker, with all the
data and all the carriers andall the customers already you
know, really enjoying whatyou're giving them.
I don't know that in two yearsthere are going to be new
brokers that just start up withsome really hungry entrepreneur
CEO and hiring a bunch of hungrypeople who will sweat equity

(01:20:51):
their way to the top.
I don't know if that's going tobe doable.
It feels like that opportunitywindow is actually finally
certainly narrowing and maybeeven closing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
Yeah, I would agree with you.
So it's like, what other valueprop can you give?
So, if you have access tocapital cheaper, well, maybe,
maybe now you can source bettertrucks and you can, you know,
include factoring in because youcan access, you know, debt at a

(01:21:22):
lower price.
And maybe, like a good culture,and maybe you can buy a
brokerage that has, you know,it's 10, 25, 50 million, that
has a lot of shipper contracts,but you know that was never able
to get good penetration becausethey bounce loads or something.
But, you know, maybe they hadsomething for some time.
So I think it's stillopportunity.

(01:21:44):
But if you asked me, hey, let'sstart a brokerage in two years,
a truckload brokerage, I'd belike, what's the point?
Like this is like, you know,like let's go find another way
to make a buck.

Speaker 1 (01:21:58):
Yeah, I might agree with you there.
I'm not all the way there, butthere's a part of me that's
getting there, so I guess.
One final question is like whatdo you see as a potential
deterrent for achieving thisvision of like building this
decision intelligence platforminto this kind of global

(01:22:20):
solution that really is almostlike an end-to-end managed
transportation for customers?
Like what?
What would prevent you fromachieving that?

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
Well, I think it's the same thing.
That's always been our biggestcompetitor, which is, you know,
ability to execute.
I mean, at the end of the day,there isn't a playbook for what
we're doing because it doesn'texist, and that's the whole
thing for the company from thebeginning.
And so our toughest competitoris execution.
On frontier technologies, therecertainly are a lot of

(01:22:53):
incumbents.
If you think about our businessmodel, we press against a lot
of incumbents, we press againstoligopolies, we press against
billionaires, we press againstestablishments, fifth generation
businesses, and so there's justa lot of pressures on our
specific business model.
But I think we can get throughall those with just strong

(01:23:15):
execution.
There's no technologylimitations.
I don't even see like there'sno competitor out there.
That even like concerns me orbothers me, whether it's a
startup, ai company or whateverit is like.
At the end of the day, we arethe platform that companies that
the largest shippers in theworld are using like name.
A company, it's probably thecustomer, like I guarantee you

(01:23:37):
got our customers phones in yourpocket, you've got the shoes on
of our customers, you knowyou're eating, drinking the
coffee, you're driving the cars,like all of it, and you say,
well, how do you know, I got xand x bonds, like because
they're all our customers.
I don't care what brand youhave, uh, I don't care what kind
of shoes you have, they're allour customers.
I I don't care what kind of caryou drive, they're all our

(01:23:59):
customers.
Um, so you have that mind shareand you have that market there.
So then how can you bring inthis?
You know these, these foursteps connect, see, act and then
automate.
The only way we can reallyautomate is by and that's.
I think maybe that's thatmanaged trans thing that he was
talking about is that we canalready suggest and take action

(01:24:22):
for customers, and we've beenable to do that for some time.
And so I think you picked Ithink Craig picked up on that
and said well, that's likemanaged trend and it's like,
well, if you mean that we'resolving problems and creating
outcomes for customers, theanswer is yes, and we're gonna
keep, keep doing it.
I don't think that you knowshort term, that it really
presses against the traditionalmanaged trans companies that a

(01:24:44):
lot of people think of in thatstatement, but I'll send you a
video if you're interested.
It's about three minutes and Ithink it'll blow your mind
what's coming out here in aquarter of what's possible and
you'll be like, wow, that'sreally going to chip into a lot
of these transactional guys.

Speaker 1 (01:25:05):
I would love that.
So you've given me well beyondthe time that we allocated for
this.
So you know I want to thank you.
You know I've had a lot ofguests I think you're number 70
or 68, if you don't count thetwo I did myself or three but I
really appreciate yourtransparency and openness and
vulnerability.
I think you've shared a lotthat I maybe I don't know if I

(01:25:28):
didn't, I don't know if I hadexpectations, but you're on the
furthest end of the spectrum interms of your openness and
willingness to share what'sgoing on with your business, the
good and bad, and it feels likesometimes I get a lot of the
good without people wanting totalk about some of the
challenges.
And so I just want to say thankyou, because I think this will
be, I think people will reallyenjoy kind of getting to know
you better and and learning moreabout your business, because

(01:25:49):
there's a lot you've shared heretoday.

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I appreciate the platform youcreated here and you know I
thought about you, know what'swhat's the right approach.
I think my PR folks are goingto puke all over what I did
today, but at the end of the dayI was thinking.
I listened to your podcast.
I thought, you know what I seeAndrew trying to accomplish here
is making the industry betterand helping other entrepreneurs.
I thought, well, if he's gotthat platform and he's willing

(01:26:13):
to do it, I want to buy intothat today and I want to spend
the time helping people, becauseI certainly have been helped
along the way and if we can,help one person with it.
I'll take the slack from my PRteam, so I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:26:27):
I appreciate it.
Yeah, thanks, thanks, and youknow what we'll do is you'll
send me that video and maybe insix months or a year, once this
thing's really taken off, we'llhave you come back and we'll
talk more about it Sounds goodCiao.
With that.
That's all we got.
We'll see you next week.
Bye.

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Ep. #70: Jett McCandless, CEO & Founder, project44

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