Ep. #73: Shawn McLeod, President of Axle Logistics

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:28):
Welcome back to another episodeof the Freight Pod.
I'm your host, andrew Silver,joined today by a special guest,
mr Sean McLeod of AxelLogistics.
Axel is one of the mostfascinating freight brokerages
in the industry, one of thefastest growing over the last
decade, and has done it in a waythat is, just frankly,

(01:49):
respectable.
Just a lot of organic, justground and pound.
Take care of your customers,execute and keep growing.
So I'm excited to dive into thestory of the business.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
But also your personal story, Sean.
Absolutely Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, definitely I'm here every day.
We were just talking.
You just moved into a newoffice, right?

Speaker 2 (02:17):
HQ2 took about 11 and a half months to build.
We moved into HQ1.
So we moved into HQ1.
It was a small old Forddealership next door and you
know it was going to hold about350 people.
We moved there back in 21.
And we thought it would lastfor about three or four years
and we filled it up in just overa year.

(02:37):
So we've been spread out allover Knoxville in three
different buildings.
You know it's hard to keep yourculture the way you want it to
whenever you're spread out.
You've got one team downtown,one team across town, so we got
everybody moved in.
I think I was the last one tomove into the building here in
the last week, so it's beenpretty exciting.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
So with yeah, you don't even.
I see in the background you'vegot your Inc 5000 Awards.
They're not even hung up yet.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
They're still on the ground yeah, they're probably
gonna have to stay there.
I was told that, um, they'vegot something that's got to go
on this wall behind me here andthey don't want anything else is
what I'm being told.
So I said, well, it is what itis oh good, so is that.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Is the new hq going to be like one central location
for everybody?
How big is that office?
How how many people can fit?

Speaker 2 (03:25):
It's five stories, I think, somewhere around 915, 920
people.
And then it's literally acrossthe street from our first
building that we acquired.
So we have still 325 spots inthat building next door.
So it should get us to about 12or 12, 50 I think, something
like that.
So hopefully it'll last, youknow, a couple years but it's

(03:51):
the.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
It's the right problem if it doesn't.
Those, those are the bestproblems in freight is when
you're growing so fast that youknow new problems you didn't
expect come up.
I had the same.
I rememberolo we.
We moved into an office.
Our first like real office was,you know, we had this 2000
square foot office.
We moved into an 8,000 squarefoot office thinking that would

(04:13):
last a year.
It lasted like four monthsbefore we took on an extra 7,000
square feet and then another15,.
You just kept going.
And so those are the funproblems to have to deal with.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Definitely, yeah, it's definitely a good problem
to have, but at the same timeit's like you know.
You know this industry is atough industry.
Right, you've got to grind,you've got to hit the phones and
and, um, when you get separate,you start having these like
little cultures of poison thatstart to pop up, and they're
harder control if you're not inthat building every day with the

(04:44):
team.
So, um, it's also frustratingat the same time.
But you know, if we fill thisone up here in the next year or
two, I'm not gonna bedisappointed for sure,
especially the way theindustry's been.
It's tough to.
It's tough to grow.
We're still growing this yearbut it's, it's been.
It's back to the the grind.
You know pre-covid, where justgot to hammer the phones and hit

(05:04):
100 plus calls a day and seewhat you can get.
It's still fun, it's part ofthe joy of the job.
Right, you like the grind, youlike the hard work, you love the
million.
No's before the yes.
You get that.
Yes, everybody celebrates.
It's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
The yes is only worth people.
People don't understand thisunless they've done the job.
The way that I think you and Ihave the yes is only as valuable
as it is because of the amountof no's that it took to get to
the yes 100.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
I mean, we, we still, we still do like a cold call
blitz, you know.
Know, once a week, twice a week, just depends on which leader
is going to step in.
And you know, the funny thingis they expect me to get on a
call and get a yes, every time Imake a call I'm just like you
know, I'm going to sit here andI'm going to fail in front of
you and I'm going to stumblejust like everyone else does,
because it's cold calling.

(05:59):
You don't know, you don't knowwhat's happening on the other
end of the line.
You know, and, and you know,these young kids right out of
college, they're just like well,I need to guess, I need to win,
but give it six or eight months.
You know, make a lot more callsand take some practice.
So you gotta sell yourself Ilove that I shot.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
We used to do these kind of cold call blitzes too
and I would just set.
They're just fun to set up,they're fun to to manage,
they're fun to watch your teamjust compete and go at it.
Uh.
But I love what you just saidabout your team like the young
reps expecting, when you go andhit a cold call, that it's just
going to be so much better andthere's going to be a yes.
It's like it doesn't matter ifit's you, if it's me, if it's 30

(06:40):
years experience.
It's an even playing field whenyou make a cold call, because
the person on the other end.
They don't care who's calling,they're generally not looking
for that call to come throughand your ability to convince.
I mean, I remember doing thatmyself in front of reps and it
didn't matter how experienced Iwas as soon as that phone

(07:01):
started ringing.
I even got some of those nervesand as soon as they picked up
as soon as they picked up, youfeel like your stomach almost
dropped.
Like what am I going to say?
I might ask about the weatherright now.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
Oh no, it's exactly right.
I mean it's I'm a big tone guy,right?
So if you pick up, yeah, whatdo you want, right, and they
sound like they're not having anissue right now, but it's like
you just sometimes have to throwit out there and see what's
going to stick it's.
I always get the butterflieswhen you call it still, even

(07:32):
today.
I mean 23, 24 years in theindustry.
But you know, you want to.
You want to do the right thingsand say the right things.
That way, the team that'slistening to you will learn.
But at the same time, um,you're going to make mistakes.
We try to tell them that, butit's just part of it.

(07:52):
You know it's, it's fun, it's.
I still saw it today.
I tell everyone you know to holdaccountability.
Out here on the floor.
I mean I still put up numberslike everyone else does and I
hold myself accountable to it.
That way, um, I can go, I just,I just go out and tell trash.
To be honest with you, you know, walk the floor every day.
What did you land yesterday?
I landed one.
You know, this is theopportunity I have.

(08:12):
You know that's the fun part ofit.
You've got to.
Otherwise it's like well,you're sitting in that back
office.
No, look at this code, look atthis load that just picked up
and I did make, you know, decentmoney on it.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
That's awesome, still got.
I mean, there's something aboutconnecting with your employees
in that way that I can tell justyou know you and I don't know
each other for the audience.
Sean and I have, I think, metonce and, and you know, exchange
words a couple times maybe afew times, but, but we don't
know each other well.
But I can tell just from thefirst five minutes of our
conversation, with how you'retalking, that I bet connecting

(08:51):
with employees is one of yourstrong suits or skills, and I
could tell that one of the waysyou do it is by, I guess,
empathizing with their role andparticipating in the role with
them.
I think that's such a valuablelike I just there's kind of two
ways that you can lead abrokerage, and you have to.

(09:12):
You have to do all the things,you know behind closed doors.
You have to have the privatemeetings and make the hard
decisions about you know, can wekeep hiring?
Do we need a freeze?
Do we need to let some peoplego?
Do we invest here or there?
Whatever, those things need tohappen, but at the same time,
being a relatable co-workerwhile being the boss, being

(09:35):
someone who understands how hardit is to succeed in a role and
being willing to sit down and dothat role with people.
It's not full time, you're not.
It's not like you spend all day, every day making phone calls.
But showing your team thatyou're willing to do the hardest
job in the building alongsidethem, I guarantee, earn so much

(09:56):
respect.
And being able to kind of liketrash talk in freight is like
someone might hear that andthink the wrong thing, but like
it's a way to connect with yourpeople and motivate them and
push them in a way that theyappreciate.
I feel like absolutely.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
I managed six people.
I think it was the most I evermanaged, you know.
And I, when I came to axle andand I still remember you know
they were a very close-knitgroup I think I was hired number
21, and I'm just sitting here,I'm two weeks down like man.
How am I going to relate tothis team that's here?
And I just started grabbing thephone right and I started

(10:38):
booking trucks cheaper than theywere on their largest customer
out of Texas at the time, andyou know when I'm when I'm
buying, you know 50, 75 bucksless than they are, you know.
Finally there's there are oneor two guys in the company at
the time that had the respect ofeveryone else and they were
kind of the leaders of the group.
And and finally he just saidyou know what team like we

(11:03):
better listen to this guy,because he's sitting here making
us money booking freight thathe's not even getting paid for
and he's booking cheaper than weare.
From then on, it's like you knowwhat.
I've just got to set theexample.
I've got to get out here andI've got to grind like the rest
of them, and I've always beenthat way.
They used to pick on me at onepoint because when we we

(11:25):
expanded, we had our firstexpansion.
We're in the same office.
We tore down a wall betweenoffices and and they were giving
me a hard time because John,one of the owners, put me on
this like little pedestal, likea foot tall pedestal.
I had this like I was like ajudge at a bench right and this
is a.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
This is not.
This is a literal pedestal, nota metaphorical pedestal.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
This was a they built this like 10 by 10 square and
put my desk up above everyoneelse so I could see across the
floor and I had this like gatherthis gavel that a judge would
use and and um, I would get upthere and just started hammering
cold calls and I would smack itas I gotta win and you know you
would see people lined up justwaiting to talk to me.
It was the funniest thing andit was embarrassing at the time,

(12:08):
but now that I look back on itit was pretty funny.
But you've got to get out theretoday.
I mean, it's like anyone else.
You've got to set the example.
You've got to like.

(12:29):
When I look out now around andyou can see the ones that are
scared to call in front ofpeople, they're walking off with
their headset on.
You know that's just part of thegame, but I've always been the
guy that just gets you know deepin the weeds with everyone else
.
If I sit back here, I feel likeyou know I love getting in
front of a customer.
I feel like you kind of losetouch with the industry if
you're not also out therehelping do things yourself.
If you sit back here and lookat numbers all day long and talk

(12:51):
about who we need to hire orhow much, or what's the next
move from a technologystandpoint all the time.
Then I feel like you lose touchwith reality and then you get
out in front of a customer andyou don't know what to say
anymore.
But yeah, it's always importantto set the example.
You've got to get out there andgrind.
You've got to throw yourself inthe deep end.
It's what we tell everyone, andI still do that all the time,

(13:15):
especially if you've got to dothat.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Something you just said really struck home with me,
and it's with respect to likeyou hear people often talking

(13:39):
about data-driven decisions andI 100% align with the idea that
you the only world I really know.
But if you just look at thenumbers and you bury yourself in
the numbers I just keepimagining what you said you get
further and further away fromsome element of reality that
only exists or you can onlyreally understand through

(14:01):
consistent engagement with thefloor, with customers, with
carriers, and it's not.
I don't know that you're goingto see like drastically
different things in the numbersand what you hear in actual
conversations, but I do thinkyou miss something.
For the leaders who just kindof bury themselves in the
numbers and live and die by thenumbers with every decision they

(14:24):
make.
I think there's somethingmissed that can only be
understood through prettyconsistent conversations with
customers.
And when I say this I don'tmean that every leader in
freight should spend their wholeday managing 20 customers and
talking to carriers all day, buthaving a few customers that you
are consistently incommunication with and hearing

(14:48):
directly from them the trendsthey're seeing from their other
providers, from their own kindof sales and buying patterns,
like there's just a lot that youget from those conversations
that you won't find in thenumbers, and I think-.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Especially today.
You know it's like everyone'slike what's going to happen over
the next six months, the nextyear?
You know it's, you've got toget out and see the different.
You know you can have aconversation with one customer
sales are down, inventory isstill full and the next customer
you know this is their plan forthe ports in August.

(15:23):
You get a better understandingof what's going to happen in the
future than what you hearthrough the media.
Right, I feel like based on thetrue, actual conversations, but
from the get-go.
If there's one thing I wouldsay that I'm getting better at
but I still struggle with is thetrust.
I want to hear from thecustomer myself about what's

(15:45):
going on in their business,what's going on in the industry,
but what's going on with Axel?
How are we performing?
Are we bringing the service andthe execution which you've said
that many times?
I've heard you from otherpodcasts we sell service and
execution.
Technology is technology andeveryone's got it today.
But when you get out and youstart talking to the customers I
mean in 17 and 18, I called andtraveled to see every single

(16:10):
customer we had.
In 18, I believe it was I wason the road like 276 days that's
how many nights I had at Hiltonand my goal was just to see
everyone as many as I could packin all over the country and I
just want to sit down and get anunderstanding of them, who they
are, what they use us for, whatthey like, what they dislike,

(16:33):
what we need to fix.
So now I still try to see ourtop 100 every year.
I don't go to many shows.
It's like the show you saw meat at TIA, I believe in the fall
.
Shows don't make me money.
If I want to know what's goingon with a new piece of tech, I
go to a show, but otherwise I'mI'm traveling to see customers
every week.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Um, it's just part of the game, you know yeah, you
and I are cut from the samecloth.
It's interesting because Idon't go to tia often.
I went because I'm not inbrokerage I guess I wasn't in
brokerage at the time but TIA isthe one conference I've always
struggled with for brokersbecause I'm like, if I'm going
to a conference, I want to spendevery waking minute in front of

(17:16):
a shipping customer.
And TIA is the one conferencethat there are zero customers at
.
I mean, you go to CSCMP, you goto food shippers, Rila, they
all have shippers and it mightbe hard to get in front of, they
might be super packed, butthey're there.
Tia, you know when you sign upyou are not going to talk to

(17:37):
customers.
So I've always struggled withthat.
No offense to the TIA folks outthere, I get it.
You want to go learn from yourcompetitors or something.
But for me I'm like you If I'mon the road, I want to be in
front of a customer.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
I'm going there to just scale myself and how we're
performing, to see if we're atleast doing what we should be
doing right or growing the wayeveryone else is.
If everyone else is growing andwe're flat, we have a problem.
So I use that more of aself-scoring conference to go to
, I mean, some of the vendorsit's great to meet and talk to
and hear what other technologiesout there, but yeah, I don't

(18:14):
get many.
It's like I said, I think wewent to the Technovations one.
I'll probably go to that thisfall, just because, again,
technology's evolving rapidlyand AI is the new thing.
Right and trying to see, wedon't use much of it today
except in back office.
So then it's like what do we?
need.
So I'm going to go out thereand listen and put my ear to the

(18:36):
ground.
But yeah, getting in front ofcustomers.
I've heard a lot of peoplereach out to me like this year,
how are you still growing inthis market?
Well, what are your plans tosee your clients?
You know every other broker isprobably going to see them.
What are your plans?
Well, travel's been restricted.
We can't go anywhere.
That is the biggest mistakeI've ever heard in my life.

(18:57):
Like, restrict something else.
We do free lunch for ouremployees every Thursday.
Like, I would rather not havefree lunch and still continue to
travel to see customers.
You know it kills me how manypeople are not doing that right
now.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
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Look within so many companiesthat tender you freight
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(19:37):
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(19:57):
out of Mexico.
If you move Mexico freight orare planning to reach out to
Cargado today at cargadocom,that's C-A-r-g-a-d-ocom.
Yeah, that that is theshort-sighted nature in our
industry that hamstrunghamstrings so many of the

(20:18):
competitors because it's sofocused on this last quarter,
this last month, it's like, ohGod, we were profitable now or
not, or we were at X amount ofprofitability and now it's minus
20%.
What are we going to cut?
Let's cut something thatgenerates revenue.
That makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Hey, you know what?

Speaker 1 (20:41):
Keep doing it.
That's the way I say it Keepdoing it.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
That's opening my door a little bit more.
Again, it's the short side.
You see it all the time.
I think as much as we've donethe right things of Axel is we
have no PE money, no venturecapitalist money.
There's no one funding thiscompany.

(21:08):
So you know what, if we have abad quarter, we need to go see
people more.
You know we're going to pinchthe bottom line a little bit,
but we've got to get out thereand we've got to do the right
things.
And they've never said no whenit comes to.
You know, if it's.
You know, right now margincompression is everywhere.
If you're a guy sitting at desklooking at numbers, you're like

(21:29):
, all right, we need to firethese 50 customers because
margin is not where it needs tobe.
But that would be the wrongmove.
The market's going to shiftagain.
Something's going to cause thatto happen.
You've just got to continue toservice it and reduce your
losses as much as you can.
And you know we hear it all thetime hey, you aren't the
cheapest provider.
You know we're going to moveforward with someone else, but
then well, that's fine.

(21:50):
You know, just reach out to usif you need anything.
And we say that every time andthey always reach out because in
the end, they still wantservice and they've got to take
care of their own customers.
So, um, yeah, that's, that'salways been a benefit.
You know, everyone else can beshort-sighted, they can sit
there and and and get scared andslow down or lay off or

(22:11):
whatever.
But no, I mean, we're not goingto get scared, we're just going
to have to work harder, youknow.
So I tell my team.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
Hey, if I'm going to be here 15 hours a day, then
you're going to be here 15 hoursa day.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Let's get after it.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, it's work harder, it's work smarter.
And I think that I haven't saidthis recently because I've been
on the sideline for two yearsand this has been one of the
most challenging markets forbrokers to endure.
So it feels almost like I don'thave the right to say this, but
I don't believe there's anymarket and I mean any market

(22:47):
that a good broker can't grow in.
I think that you can alwaysfind a way.
I think that there is always adifferent type of freight that's
growing or doing well, whetherit's produce season freight or
construction season or Christmastrees I mean it doesn't matter.

(23:08):
At any given time of yearthere's always something that's
starting to ship and it's just amatter of can you work hard
enough and smart enough to getyour way in and get a piece of
that pie?
Because people just rest ontheir laurels and it's like,
yeah, my 20 customers that Ihave are all down 20%, so my
numbers are down 20%.

(23:29):
And then that same person ismaking like 10 or 15 calls a day
and it's like well, I think Iunderstand what the real problem
is.
It's not the market.
You can't control the market,but this pie is massive and
there's room for everyone tokeep existing.
That means there's room for youto keep taking little pieces of
that pie and growing your sharefrom what it is to a little bit

(23:51):
bigger.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, every, every business leader that I meet
speak with in Knoxville.
It doesn't understand ourindustry.
They're like man, you guys hita billion dollars, you've got to
be huge, like how much room isleft?
And I'm like you don't get it.
I'm still just a little speckon the map and the hard part is

(24:13):
really just getting people tofigure out different ways to be
creative and find leads.
That's where we fight today.
Everyone's just continuing tohammer through our CRM and run
over the same stuff.
And I told them I'm like do youknow what an atlas is?
I remember my days at CH.
I still had success.
There were 17,000 employees Ihad to sell against every day.
But I would open an Atlas and Iwould not look at it and I

(24:34):
would just put my finger on thecity and I would just Google
city-state manufacturing andjust start hammering away.
If they had a website, I wouldcall them and that's how I
landed on my business.
You know, and and everyone givesme a hard time where they don't
make outlets just today and anduh, I'll go and buy a bunch of
them off of like eBay orsomething, and here's what
you're going to do.

(24:54):
If you can't finally enter,you're telling me that's your
problem for not selling.
This is what you're going to do, moving forward and put an
Atlas on their desk and tellthem just to randomly shut their
eyes and choose a page.
So, um, yeah, it's, it's.
Uh, there's so much still outthere.
Um, it's crazy though, it's likeI tell everyone we're in like
the largest small industry ever.

(25:15):
It's like, you know, it's ahuge industry, but you somehow
always run into the same peopleover and over again.
And it's like man, you thinkyou have this niche that you
found, and some stayed out inthe middle of nowhere.
And over again, and it's likeman, you think you have this
niche that you found, and somestayed out in the middle of
nowhere, and then, all of asudden, you realize that
everybody else is also in there.
They've been called, you know.
And then it's just give me thatone chance.

(25:35):
You know, let me prove myself.
And that's what we do everytime.
It's like listen, I know youdon't need a provider today, but
give me that one chance.
The next time someone fails,let me move a shipment for you
and I will show you how muchbetter we communicate and and

(25:55):
give you the visibility and theservice and and um, you know,
it's just how it works.
Um, get after it, though.
There's a lot of freight upthere and, like you said, you
have to find it.
You have to get creative, youhave to find another mode that
you don't hold for today, youknow, may have to go and argue

(26:16):
with our attorneys because weneed more insurance, because
we're taking over dimensionalthat they want us to steer clear
of, but you know what it'sgoing to help pay the bills.
So there's.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
there's a theory that I believe in, which is the
harder it is to make it happento execute for a customer, the
more likely it is that that'sreally going to be worth it.
Because if I, as a rep, have tofight and negotiate with my

(26:44):
insurance and my legal team fortwo hours or two days or two
weeks about getting this extrainsurance or this or that,
everybody else has to do thesame thing and most people, when
they hit those roadblocks, theyjust say, ah, it's not worth it
and what that means.
When you think about callingCoca-Cola, you know everyone is

(27:05):
calling Coca-Cola.
It is way harder to get thatopportunity because everyone
wants it.
But on the stuff that peopledon't want, because it takes a
lot of front-end work to get itdone, there's way less
competition opportunity.
For you, as the person whofound a way to get your legal
team to approve the insurance,you've now got a significant

(27:27):
leverage in being able to quoteat fair high margins.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
And even taking risk.
Right, that's where, you know,I hear a lot of people you know
that I've worked with over theyears.
It's like you know we can'ttake this opportunity.
How in the world did you getyour foot in the door?
Well, you've got to be able totake the risk and and you know
my attorneys don't love it, butit's like you know what there's
going to be a million dollarssitting here that we may have to

(27:55):
.
You know, at some point eat oneday.
But let's see exactly what theopportunity is and out, it's
well worth it to take that riskand we do it a lot.
But you know we stay within ourmeans.
We make sure we have goodcoverage.
It's expensive and we want tomake sure that everyone's taken

(28:16):
care of and we don't put us insome weird liability position.
But you know what.
We're willing to roll the dice.
You have to.
You've got to see what theopportunity is.
I can't say no, that's myproblem.
You know it's, let's see whathappens.
I don't, you know, we don't.
We don't alter documents, likeI probably did 20 years ago,
when it's like you know, youjust need a cert holder.

(28:37):
Let me just take that on thereand send it to you real quick.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
But you know it's so funny, I it just.
It reminds me of two stories,two completely different ends of
a spectrum, one being a perfectexample of the kind of customer
like you could say no to, butyou just don't want to and you
want to see what happens.
And for us, for me, at one pointI'll say that was we were

(29:00):
hauling money for an armoredsecurity company.
Wow, it was just pallets oflike nickels and quarters and I
think we had to have a milliondollars in insurance to make
this happen and it would be likefour pallets of quarters, which
is a ton of quarters, obviously, a ton of quarters obviously.

(29:24):
But I mean, I think it was likea load from maybe Philly to
Atlanta that we were payingsomeone like $8,000 to move for
us and we were charging $13,000or something Like, cause there's
no one who's willing to gothrough the effort to get
approval to move that kind ofmoney.
But you figure it out, you findthe right carrier that's

(29:44):
capable of doing, becausesomeone is doing it, like
anything that's moving or has tomove is currently being moved
by someone.
So there's a way and then it'sa matter of can you figure it
out, see, and that's it's funny.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
You say that because I said that a hundred times
yesterday walking the floor.
Everyone's in this building.
It's like, figure it out.
Like you know, here's thisopportunity.
They need this, this and thisfigured out.
How's it going to happen?
You know, go out there and seethem.
See what everyone else is doingtoday.
You know, can we maybe lease apiece of equipment?
You know as much as you know myattorneys wants to stay away

(30:19):
from leased equipment as much aspossible for the liability
issues.
If I can figure it out, make ithappen.
It's going to be worth itlong-term and then it's their
job to figure out how to protectus right?
So that's the key.
You got to fight every day.
I mean, it does wear on yousometimes, but again, it's the
grind, but that's the fun partof it.

(30:39):
Every day is different.
It's everything that you and Iand everyone else that's been in
it for the long term.
A lot of people can't deal withit.
We have more turnover than wewant just because it's the grind
and work-life balance, and itused to be.
Everyone loved a big paycheck.
Now it's like let's make amediocre paycheck, but I just

(31:00):
want to be able to get off at 5PM.
No, we need you to come hereand grind and figure it out, at
least for the first two years.
After that it'll ease up alittle bit.
But then you have otherproblems, because now you're
going to be a manager here andmanaging people is tough.
That's my thing.
People just want to turn offthe switch.
They want the easy way out ofan opportunity.

(31:23):
I'm like no, figure it out.
If not, I'll give it tosomebody else.
And the minute you say thatwe're like no, no, no, just wait
, you know.
So, yeah, nothing's ever changed, you know it's.
It's still the same industry asit is now.
I would be afraid to hold moneytoday, because the fraud that's
out there, that we're fighting,is just unbelievable what we're
seeing.
But um, we'll still figure itout.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, I have two thoughts to that, one being you
mentioned having more turnoverthan you want.
There's something about theright kind of turnover and you
know it too.
It's like if the person doesn'tlike this is a lifestyle,
moving freight is, you have tobe committed to the lifestyle If
you want to be good.

(32:08):
Yeah, you can probably leavethe office at five every day and
pull it off, but you have tostay available.
Part of the beauty oftechnology today is I can
execute most things from myphone that I need to, or I can
pop on my laptop quickly fromanywhere and get it done, but
it's just being available toforward an email or make a quick

(32:32):
call for your carrier or foryour shipper.
That you have to be able to do,sometimes at 7.30 at night, or
it's the difference betweensucceeding and failing, and
customers have a short memory.
So it's like you could be 99%on time for 500 orders, but on
that 501st order because youdidn't respond to the email at 6

(32:54):
PM, the driver didn't get theright PO number, so he didn't
make the delivery on time.
And now you're getting blown upand the 30 brokers who have
been waiting for the opportunityfor you to screw up.
One of them is getting a phonecall now.
So it's interesting because Iremember I think part of the
problem in how I led a businessor a brokerage was almost too

(33:16):
much coddle culture.
Like we wanted the employees tobe so happy that it was like we
never fired people and itdoesn't necessarily take very
long to know if someone has itor doesn't, in terms of just the
effort and part of me wishes.
And if I get to do this again,I want to figure out a way to do

(33:36):
this.
We almost have two separatecultures and like I want that.
I'm going to be scared to saythis, but I want that TQL
culture for the initial part ofthe career of an employee, where
it's like prove to me thatyou're willing to do what it
takes to make it here in yourfirst three, six months and if

(33:59):
not, I want you out because Ithink it's cancerous to the rest
of the culture.
Out because I think it'scancerous to the rest of the
culture.
But then, once you've provedyourself, I want a really strong
like I don't want to fire youevery time you like okay, you
did great for two years and thenyou have two bad months, you're
out the door.
No, I don't believe in that.
I'm not trying to, you know,take your customers from you and
keep them while you get bail oryou get booted.
But I think there's somethingabout having a culture where

(34:23):
early on you have to proveyourself and you have to prove
you have what it takes to put inthe effort, and then the effort
needs to be consistentthroughout your career.
But like there's not as muchfear that if I don't put up in
the first three to six monthsthat I'm going to get booted.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
So we had Allie as my VP of learning and development.
So we had Allie as my VP oflearning and development.
She created this program calledLaunchpad at the beginning of
last year and you know we hired,you know, 10 or 15 people more
than we need because we're goingto push out 10 or 15 people in

(35:01):
the first 90 days and that's thegoal 10 or 15 people in the
first 90 days, and that's thegoal.
Now, you know, I'm not tryingto be mean about it, but you're
going to see, like you just said, you're going to see who has
the effort and the give a damnand hey, I want this and I'm
going to grind.
And you're going to see theones that come in that get
scared.
And I tell her all the time.
You know I like to do a Q&Awith new hires because I can

(35:25):
tell already which ones aren'tgoing to make it.
You know they're not making eyecontact when I look at them.
They're afraid to ask questions.
You know you can see how theyinteract with others around them
and I give her a list.
I can already tell you thesethree won't make it and I'm
usually right 99% of the time.
So, yeah you know if you come inand you, you show me that

(35:47):
you're willing to do the hardwork.
You may not put up newcustomers every month like what
we want you to, but I need tosee that you're giving it a shot
to do so.
If you do, we're going to keepyou.
We do keep people longer thanwe probably should, but if you
come in and you just love thefact that we have a new building
, a cool swing suite on the topfloor and and you can hang out

(36:09):
with friends within, I don't, Idon't need you here, and you
know likely the culture putsenough pressure on you to where
you end up leaving yourself.
It's just part of it, though.
We made it, but at the sametime, it's not right for
everybody.
Attention.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
I hate it, but at the same time, it's not right for
everybody.
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profitably.
No, I love the way you'vestructured that with the
launchpad and the idea thatyou're bringing in more people

(37:28):
than you expect to keep andthat's the expectation.
I think it's important.
Like there's a differencebetween that being the stated
expectation, like hey, justbecause you got the offer letter
and you signed it, that doesn'tmean you're set for life, and I
think that that's a fallacy inour culture today, just in the
world where it's like peoplethink that because they got

(37:49):
hired, now they are owedeverything just by showing up
and existing in the workplace.
But I like the idea that youhave to earn your place every
day Because in our industry andI'm not the first to say and I
won't be the last, but you don'town anything in this space.
You don't own your freight, youdon't own your customers, you
don't own your employees as acompany, you rent it all and

(38:13):
rent is due every day.
If you don't take care of youremployees every day, they will
up and leave and go to thecompetitor down the road and
they will try to bring theircustomers with them.
If you don't show up for yourcustomers every day, they will
certainly find someone else thatwill.
So there is nothing owned and Ithink that that's probably the
biggest misalignment is theemployee who thinks that because

(38:34):
they got hired, they are owed a5, 10, 15-year career where, as
long as they show up to work ontime, they're taken care of and
they should get their bonus andall that Like.
That's not what freightbrokerage is.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
No, and we I mean, we see it every day.
You know, we, we only hire aswe need it, right, but we always
go again more than what we need, just in case.
But there's, there's a rule setwhere the team leader that
hires someone, they've got togive off a small book of
business and you'll have oneemployee that gets, say, $6,000

(39:10):
in gross profit in a month.
You know, and you get anemployee that's given an account
that runs 15K and the 6K personwill sit there and complain
well, I deserve the 15 too.
No, you don't.
You know, and I fight thatevery single week.
It's like why are you leaving?
Well, I wasn't given enoughhouse freight.
This person was given this.

(39:30):
Well, we're not here to giveyou anything.
We do it.
A, because we need your helprunning this account.
B, it's going to teach you veryquickly how to cover freight,
negotiate with carriers, be ableto build a relationship with a
customer and know, and we'retrying to help give you that
jumpstart and that energy.
But you know you don't rely onjust your house freight either.

(39:50):
You've got to make yourinorganic business.
You know we're, that's our bigthing.
It's everything here is organicgrowth.
You know we're.
We push it hard.
We average 300,.
We push it hard, we average 300, 310 new customers a month.
And we're you know we're downon that from our usual averages

(40:15):
per month.
But it's just a tough year tosell.
But you've got to come in andyou've got to grind and you've
got to be able to find it andwe're not going to give it to
you and we tell them that thesad thing is we tell every
single one of them um, you know,we have a new hire lunch, um,
and I finally got to go to thelast one on monday and it's like
you know, their, their eyes gotreal big, like they ask us all

(40:37):
questions.
It's myself and my executiveteam and we're up there and I'm
like, if you're not willing togive me all that you've got for
the next two years, all I wantis all you got a, a buddy of
mine that I worked with atRobinson, every day all.
I want is all you've got.
If you're not willing to comein and grind and give it your
all and deal with the lack ofwork life balance for the first
two years of this job, leavetoday.

(40:58):
Like you know, I will walk youout the front door.
I'm not trying to be mean, it'sjust not for you and I don't
want you to waste your time orhours and in six months realize
that you know what.
It's time to go on and movesomewhere else.
That kills me.
I take it personally.

(41:18):
You know, just like you knowyou probably do and the rest of
them.
It's like we've been throughthe grind and we've had a great,
a great run and we've grown towhere we want to be and we're
going to continue to scale.
Hopefully, you know at the pacewe've been scaling at.
But I take it personal.
You know, if I call you and youdon't answer your phone, what's

(41:38):
the first thing you ask anybodyin this company?
You call them.
Right now, sean McLeod callsyou and you don't answer and you
call him back.
What's the first thing he'sgoing to say?
What if it was a customer?
You know it's like I say thatevery single time.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
They say I would have answered.
I didn't want to.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
I'm on an audit delete.
I know I am with some of them,but yeah, man it's just part of
today's.
You know kids, my son startedtwo weeks ago and I'm on his ASS
over there.
It's like you know, hey dad,let's go to lunch.
Hey dad, let's go to lunch.
That's too bold.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
We sat down.
I was like let's go to lunch,that's too bold.
We sat down.
I was like what's your marginpercent for the day?

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Yeah, I mean you're operating freight.
I'll put him in an optional.
I don't want him in thecradle-to-grave model.
I covered freight for threeyears of my career in the
brokerage world and I feel likeyou learn a lot more than just
diving right into salessometimes, and even though 80%
of our company is career of thegrave.
But he's like I don't know howmany loads have you pre-booked

(42:50):
for tomorrow?
I haven't yet.
It's one o'clock, why not?
You know, it's like I was justtelling him he's like we
probably won't do lunch againfor a while.
I was like, yeah, probably not,I love that.
But you know, gotta, you gottagotta teach him early.

(43:13):
You know how old is he?
Uh, 23.
So he's fresh out of college.
Fresh out of college, yeah, Iwent on my first beach vacation,
um, last week, without him,because, man, I can't go.
No, you have a job, man, you're, you're working.
You may be my kid, but you'restill.
You've got the same vacationtime as everybody else in here
you're doing it right.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
He, he will appreciate this in 10 years when
he earns his way to wherever hewill end up, because, as
someone who sat in his seat,there's there's two ways it can
be done and and my father alsowas like show up to to work, do
your, do your job, get it done,earn your respect here, and you
get a lot further with that thanyou do just expecting handouts,

(43:51):
expecting to be given this andthat and extra time off and and
all the other things.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
So yeah, he was like apologizing for checking his
phone at lunch.
I'm like dude.
Now you know why I do it.
Everyone here my executive teamgets aggravated.
When I'm on vacation, I'm stillchecking emails.
I set my alarm earlier than Ido on a regular workday.
I get up at 5 am and I hammerthrough emails for the day prior
.
I'm blasting them withquestions and stuff before the

(44:19):
wife gets out of bed.
I expect them to do the same.
You know it's I don't.
I don't clock out ever.
It's probably it's.
If there's one negative thingabout me, it's I just stop.
It's like I'm going to grinduntil I do stop, you know, and I
don't know when that'll be.
But, um, you just I'm not goingto slow down, so they better

(44:40):
not either.
If I'll run you, there's aproblem because I'm slower.
I turned 50 in three weeks, so,uh, um, they better not run.
Let an old man pass them, yep5-0.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
You've been doing this a long time.
You said 23 years.
You've been in freight yeah, I,I had.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
I, um, I graduated college late.
I graduated and graduated highschool in 93, 94.
I tried to play football andcouldn't do it.
I was small and and got my tailkicked, kicked in, and so I got
mad and I quit college for fouryears.
So, um, I didn't, you know, Ididn't graduate school until I
was 27.
And I worked in retail atLowe's and I was looking through

(45:27):
the help wanted of papers.
I was tired of working, youknow, 70, 80 hours a week for 23
grand a year as a manager atLowe's Home Improvement.
So I saw a CH Robinson ad inthe paper from the local branch
manager at the time.
It was like sales, noexperience needed, need someone
that doesn't want to leave thearea.

(45:48):
So I applied and that's how Ikind of got into it.
But, yeah, I started late so Ididn't start.
I think 03 is when I got intoRobinson, end of 02, beginning
of 03, something like that.
So yeah, it's been a while.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
And what was your kind of experience at Robinson
like?

Speaker 2 (46:12):
I mean I would never say anything bad.
They taught me everything Iknow, right, hammered freight
for two or three years.
And I remember every year my VPwould come and you get 30
minutes with him and it's hey,what do you need from me?
Well, I need more training.
And he's like well, figure itout.
We have a big network of peoplecall and see what you need.

(46:32):
And so then I got tired ofcovering freight and I told my
manager at the time I was likewhat's next?
And he said, well, what do youwant to do?
I like I don't know, I want to,let me try selling.
And he's like well, then gofigure it out.
And I would sit in thisconference room and I had this
plant in the corner and I wouldnervously pick leaves off the
plant until one day he was likehe gave me a, a piece of paper

(46:56):
it's almost like a fake write-uplike you just destroyed my plan
and then in the room because Iwould get nervous, cold calling,
but I had to figure it out.
Then, you know, I had reallygood success landing.
I landed like an outsource forltl and a couple large truckload
accounts and and um, then theaccounts grew to the size where
I had to become an accountmanager, which they I think they

(47:17):
put me as a cam at the time andthey used to have this
application process where youget you do a business plan front
and back of one piece of paperand you you try to get your own
branch and and tried that twiceand the first time I I submitted

(47:38):
it and never heard anything.
The second time I made it tothe very end.
Then they said, well, we don'tlike your location, and they
kind of put me on hold.
And then 2017, you know we hadlike an economic downturn, so
they told me no, which I'm gladthey did now.
But you know, at some pointthey just said listen, your best
fit is you build greatrelationships with customers and

(47:59):
you can go on site as a Sam ifyou want to grow, but this is it
for you.
And I was just like, well,probably time for me to move on.
My buddy drew me to Schneideron the truckload side and I
survived all of 90 days.
Couldn't I stand sellingtruckload?

(48:20):
I don't like telling a customerno.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
By truckload you mean like asset.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Asset Okay.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Just wanted to clarify.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
I brought a lot of opportunities over those 90 days
, and every time we don't haveenough drivers, we don't have
enough equipment, I'm like I'mtired of telling them no.
And so then I remember the lastmeeting.
I went into my manager at thetime.
It was his first visit with meand they told me no.
So I sold their brokerage sideand he wrote me up in the

(48:50):
parking lot.
He was like we're a vantruckload, we don't sell
brokerage.
I'm like, but we're still thesame company.
He's like it doesn't work thisway Out.
See ya, work this way out.
See ya.
Um called somebody at csrecruiting that I had met and
and um she said you know what?
Um, I know these two guys inknoxville that may have what you

(49:11):
want.
Go talk to them and that's whatbrought me here.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
So it's crazy and so you came in at the time.
What year was it?
2016.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
February of 16 is when I started at Axel.
We were about 15 million.
They did 15 million in 2015.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yes, you said it was like 20 or you were the 21st
employee 21st employee.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
And today the company is how many people?

Speaker 1 (49:40):
We're at like 684 or something like that.
So nine years, from 20 peopleto almost 700 um and you know
navigating what is probablybeing known now as the most
challenging uh freightdepression we've we've seen.
Um, I think it's interesting.
You said% of the business todayis cradle to grave.

(50:03):
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe model and how you navigate,
because I think it sounds likeyou also have some of the kind
of ops split model, maybe tosupport large enterprise
accounts.
How have you been able to kindof grow so much over this time?
And it doesn't feel like you'reon the far end of the tech

(50:26):
solves all problems spectrum.
It feels like you're more onthe ground and pound, do the
work, show up, service andexecute and you can grow.
So I think this is kind of Ilove this because this is my
style and I think it's kind of ait's it's a shot to all the
people that think that AI andtech are going to come in and

(50:46):
replace all the people, becausecompanies like yours I think
yeah, exactly, good luck.
Companies like yours haveproven that this model works
even today, and so I'm justcurious if you could talk a
little bit about how you guyshave achieved such phenomenal
growth over this time period andhow you, how the model kind of
works, to make that happen?

Speaker 2 (51:02):
So you know, with the cradle to grave.
That's how the owner structureof the company in the beginning,
and when we added the splitmodel, this outside sales
account development upside, itwas solely because we had larger
accounts that we just noticedthat accounts would get into a
cradle to grave.
You're only going to go for,try to win the business that you

(51:24):
can actually handle within thatteam, right.
And so if you have a team offive and you can, you can, you
know, realistically operate 15loads per person per day, um,
while still trying to sell andlay a new business before you
can promote someone to starttheir own team, then, um, we
just realized it was holding usback.
So you know, we I had a buddyof mine that I knew from the CH

(51:48):
days, that he was in intermodaland and and we sold a couple of
large opportunities at CHtogether and and I told him that
we were going to start this,this division, and I want him to
come lead the outside salesteam.
So we threw two or three largeaccounts over there and we gave
the reps at the cradle to grave.

(52:08):
It's either split your profit orbe an account manager and move
with the account, because whenyou're a team leader here in
cradle to grave, you still haveto manage people, which is tough
, and you're managing accounts,still selling and managing
people.
So, yeah, we started the splitmodel, but the split model it's
it's enterprise level, highervolume, lower margin.

(52:31):
You know, and that's been astruggle this year and it's been
a struggle for the last twoyears to really get your foot in
the door.
From a large volume perspective, they haven't needed help right
and and so we still continue tosee the criota grave as, um,
the hub of the company today andit continues to scale and take

(52:52):
us, you know, to the next levelin terms of growth.
So it's been fun, but it's uh,it's uh, it's difficult to
sometimes manage because westill have huge accounts that
have built very large networksof teams over here that should
be an enterprise account now.
But you know, we're just.
You sometimes, unfortunately,turn salespeople into operators

(53:16):
and I don't like that.
But we've had to do it becauseI don't want to take away the
pay structure that we have forthat team.
So it's been great.
We had our biggest year ingrowth during COVID.
I think we went from $176million to $521 million in one

(53:36):
year in 2021.
And we just didn't takeadvantage of the market.
My motto is always volume iseverything.
Volume is everything.
It's like an investment market.
Right, the market's going todictate my rate, which means the
market is dictating my profit.

(53:56):
All I can do is continue to goout there and find new business
and grow volume, you know, andhopefully it's all profitable
and sometimes it's not.
But but, um, yeah, that's,that's always been the case.
Just continue to scale and withcradle to grave, you just touch,
you get that more likeintricate service piece of it.

(54:18):
You know, hey, I am the personthat's soliciting to you today,
but I'm also going to be theperson that you're going to call
if you have a problem.
But I'm also the person vettingyour carriers and moving your
freight.
So you get that higher level ofservice where on sometimes on
the split model, you don't?
You know you have a carrierthat's covering freight for five
different customers and you'vegot to wait 15 minutes to get a

(54:41):
response if you need to knowwhere a truck's at.
I hate that delay.
But during that COVID growth wesaid as a company, we're going
to keep our margins right here,we're not going to take
advantage.
I've got friends who, hey, ifyou're not making 25% margin,
you're not going to take thatfreight during COVID.
That's crazy.
That was asinine to me.
It's like, no, we're going toleave our market where we need

(55:02):
them to be and we're going tojust continue to take volume
then.
And that's what we did.
That's why we jumped so much inthat one year.
And it was talk about a hardtime of figuring out how to get
all of these hires.
And we're hiring 50 people amonth and teaching them to sell
and operate in 30 days or less.
And um and I had kudos to Allieand her team, they kicked ass,

(55:27):
um, they, they made it happen.
You know, you, you get someonethat has no idea what's going on
in this industry and within 30,45 days, or landing customers
and operating freight, I mean,that's a pretty big deal.
You know, um, and, and eversince then, the more people you
have in career to grave, youknow, the more people you have
cold calling and scaling.
And that's just how the model'sbeen and we're not going to

(55:52):
change it.
It's like everyone's like well,you can't operate a billion
dollar company career to grave.
No one's been able.
Yeah, you can, you can justkeep hiring people.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
You know margins are.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
That's the problem.
It's again.
It's like what you said earlierthey, you have a team that's
looking at the numbers and notat the opportunity, and they
stop hiring.
If you stop hiring and cradleto grave, you're slowing down
your sales and you can't do that, you know.
You've just got to keep pushingahead and have confidence that
you're going to hire the rightpeople, which I've realized it's

(56:23):
not always going to be the case.
I always wanted everyone tocome in that we hired to be
great.
But now I know it's a 50-50.
But you just got to.
You can't slow yourself down.
You got to just take a chanceand keep putting bodies in the
desks, hammering the phones, andthat's what we do.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
At Molo.
We built a great company andI'm proud of the work we did.
We knew when to ask for helpand sometimes that meant going
outside of our own company.
I'm proud we built an ecosystemof trusted partners like
Metaphora.
When we needed differentiatedindustry expertise in business
consulting or technologyservices, we looked at Peter
Ryan and the team at Metaphora.
They've consistently deliveredvalue in the transportation and

(57:15):
logistics space for over.
Thank you.
Only partner you should trust tohelp you win, whether that's
doing ops and tech diligence,growing revenue, optimizing
spend or selecting and buildingsoftware.
Go check them out atmetaforanet.
That's M-E-T-A-F-O-R-A dot net.
Yeah, so I'm 100% with.

(57:35):
Like the idea that you can'toperate cradle to grave at a
billion is crazy because it's amath problem.
As long as the math works interms of how you design the
compensation for what theemployees take versus what the
company takes, and the companycan make money and the employees
are incentivized becausethey're making money and doing
well, there's no number that youcan't do it at.

(57:55):
What I agree with, or what Iwould add, is it is challenging
to grow certain type of accountsin a cradle to grave only model
, which we've talked about and Ithink you had an interest like
when I think about if you put abusiness like yours with kind of
two segments, one being cradleto grave and the other being the

(58:16):
kind of split model designed tosupport the enterprise the
cradle to grave, if your hiringpractices stay consistent and
your training practices stayconsistent and the quality
employees stays consistentwhether that means 60% or 70% or
40% are good and your turnoveris consistent, the growth should

(58:37):
be relatively consistent andit'll flux up and down a little
bit with the market, should berelatively consistent and it'll
flux up and down a little bitwith the market.
But the interesting thing aboutthe split model, and especially
working with a large base ofenterprise accounts, that's
where you do see morefluctuation, more volatility,
and what the volatility lookslike is in a down market you

(59:01):
will see way more margincompression because it's way
more competitive, especiallythese companies that are now
using the API spot quoting tools.
It's just driving down margins.
But in an up market, whenthings are booming, your margins
can explode, can, can, explode.

(59:24):
I mean you can.
You can really see an explosivegrowth on the enterprise side
if you are a top executingperformer and you're in with a
lot of these companies that have, because when they, when, when
the market's booming, those arethe guys who you see really
explode.
Like we had similar.
You guys actually outgrew us incovid which you know a little
bit makes me irked, but notreally uh, but we went, you went
, I think, one something to fivesomething.

(59:45):
We went 275 to 625.
So you guys grew more but likeI remember one grocery retailer
who overnight we went from 75loads a day to 200 loads a day,
like that's something that youjust can't, you won't find in
the cradle to grave model ever.
And it's not a bad thing, it'sjust being able to manage both

(01:00:08):
is a delicate dance.
Specifically around compensation.
It's really hard to figure outhow to always make people happy.
You brought up earlier likehanding out house accounts.
That was a nightmare for mebecause I did a lot of selling
and you can't manage it allyourself, so you have to give or
handing out house accounts.
That was a nightmare for mebecause I did a lot of selling
and you can't manage it allyourself, so you have to give it
to people.
But it creates a lot ofanimosity.
Why did that guy get handed atop Fortune 100 grocery retailer

(01:00:35):
and I got handed this smalllittle thing.
It's like because somebody hadto take over the account.
It's not designed to screw you.
It's not like to screw you.
It's not like there's just.
This is part of the nuance ofmanaging a brokerage.
That is challenging, and it'simportant to know that.
The people who are looking forthe handouts are generally the
wrong people to have in thebusiness to begin with.
The people who are alwayslooking at why not me?

(01:00:58):
Woe is me.
I deserve this.
Those people are not good fitsto begin with.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Running two different models is tough.
I mean our compensation sheetthat we use.
I mean it's a nightmare tomanage.
It takes two or three people onpayroll to be able to figure it
all out.
You know, you've got peoplechanging teams.
If we have a gap somewhere andwe need to fill it quickly,
we're going to fill it.
We have a guy that started withus probably a year and a half

(01:01:28):
two years ago and landed one ofthose accounts last year, and it
was running 40, 50 loads amonth, and then, out of nowhere,
500 loads a month, 700 loads amonth.
It's running 4,200 shipmentslast month.
It's running cradle to grave.
The thing is, though, if theycan't figure out how to build

(01:01:50):
the carrier relationships tomake them be able to run more
freight per head to where theycan still sell, we do have to
hire a lot more people tosupport that business.
But at the same time, we'restill holding them accountable
to growing their own book.
The hard part is, if they growtheir own book of business and
they're using that piece of thataccount towards their book and

(01:02:11):
they get promoted to start theirown team, they've got to take
part of that customer with them.
So then you've got thatcustomer spread over seven
different teams.
Right, and it's hard, but wekeep them together on the same
floor and we still ensure thatwe've kind of created like a
middle manager role.
Now, hey, if you landed thiscustomer and you've built nine

(01:02:31):
teams with it, well, you'regoing to get promoted to this
middle manager role so you canstill oversee the account, you
know, manage all of those teams.
I mean, we have to get creative.
It's not great.
You do have scenarios where youprobably your comp is higher
than you want it to be as apercent of revenue, but you know
, in the end it still works.

(01:02:53):
Do you want to do it or do youwant to do?
You want to see that you'repaying out, you know, 30% of
your commission to this one team?
No, you don't want to, but Imean you gotta, you gotta make
it happen.
It's just a hard balance.
And then you've got the splitside where you want to take care
of the carrier reps.
They're working their tails off.

(01:03:13):
They're covering 30 loads a day, you know.
But how do you commission them?
Because they're not sellingright and they complain because
the sales reps get morecommission.
But know we'll come, try tosell, we'll let you, you know,
but, um, it's been a balance andagain we screwed up and we've
we've had to make changes, youknow, with comp, over the years,

(01:03:35):
but one thing we've neverchanged is the, the base way we
paid from a commissionperspective.
You, know, um, if some peoplesaw how much we paid in
commission, they would be likean asset would be like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
No way would we ever do that you know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
But that's why an asset probably can't grow.
A brokerage that well, you know.
Let's say, let's be realistic,you're thinking about it the
wrong way, but, um, it works.
It's just always a struggle.
It's like today, this, thisaccount now wants people on site
.
So how are we we're meetingthis morning?
How are we going to figure thisout?
You know, how are we going tomove somebody down there?
Because I'm not going to hiresomebody that I don't know, that

(01:04:13):
doesn't do that customer to gobe on site.
Um, I want them to know theactual culture and the actual
way and our expectations and howwe're going to manage that
business.
So we're trying to figure thatout now.
But again, it's a great problemto have.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
My recommendation because I went through this is
to take your rep, who's like ayear into their career on the
ops side, who's shown a lot ofcapabilities, they're strong and
they're smart, and give themthat job, because one being on
site, you learn more about theintricacies of a customer's
business being on site than youever will in any other role.

(01:04:51):
I did this.
I worked on site at Kraft for ayear and this was I was 21
years old, I was taking a yearoff college and for one I didn't
even know it.
Once I started digging into thesystems I realized I had access
to information.
I probably wasn't supposed to,but like I could see what people
were quoting on loads.

(01:05:12):
I could see a lot of things.
But, like you have to put avery curious mind in that and
someone who, like I, used tojust roam the floor, make
friends with all the all, likepeople working in the building
and who manage the freight andjust try to find more freight.
So, like you, don't want totake a top salesperson and put
them in this job because, likeyou want your salespeople to

(01:05:32):
sell, but find someone on theops side who's shown they're
capable, they're not too far intheir career.
They're eager, want to provethemselves.
You give them that job and thatperson, in five years, will be
leading some part of yourbusiness.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
Well, it's funny that you say that, because that's
exactly what one of my GM saidthis morning.
You know I don't want to get ridof my salespeople that kill it
and can grow new business.
You know the same people thattalk about this but at the same
time, yeah, they, they have somereally good guys that just, I
mean, I don't know one guy Ithink ran 900 plus shipments by
himself last month and I'm justlike you know he has a lot of

(01:06:12):
dedicated that call, a lot offreight, but at the same time
he's just a beast just hammeringaway at the phones and, um, you
know we we've done a lot interms of automation to from
tracking, tracing, using text,locating along with macro point,
and, and it really helps manageyour day-to-day a lot better
than I used to have to manage it, where you're check calling

(01:06:33):
every other hour.
You know, um, you can automatethe text to go to the driver
just to get an update from and,and that's really been a
lifesaver.
But, um, yeah, we'll figure itout.
We've got a couple weeks to tomake a decision on who's going
to go and and how we're going topay for them to live down there
at least short term to see ifit's really going to work out.

(01:06:53):
But um again it's a goodproblem to have right the
customer.
There's a great relationshipthere and they're they're
growing like crazy and it's aniche market that I've never
seen in my life and, um, youknow, hopefully, hopefully it'll
blow up and I agree with you,the person that we're thinking
about long term 100 will be abadass leader or manager here at

(01:07:17):
this company.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
So yeah, there's two thoughts I have coming out of
this.
One is never say no to anopportunity.
Figure it out right.
Just find a way to giveyourself a chance If a customer
is trying to go deeper in therelationship.
You're crazy if you say nobecause there's not a current
process or a current compstructure or this or that.

(01:07:39):
You've just got to figure itout.
And the second thing, which Ithink is especially true for
high-growth companies in ourspace never be married to your
processes, never be married toyour structures Like date them,
love them.
But there's so much change thatcan happen in this space and

(01:08:02):
new things that come up.
And if you restrict yourselfand let kind of structure rule
be like the law of the land,where it's like if it doesn't
fit in the structure, we can'tdo it, we're not changing it,
like I think you miss out on somuch opportunity, much

(01:08:26):
opportunity.
But I also think the one thingyou have to be so, so, so
thorough and smart about ischanging comp.
We spent years trying to changeour, wanting to change our
commission structure.
Our base commission did notchange until like my last year
or like the last year and a halfthat I was in the business,
even though we had talked aboutit for three years.
We felt like we were paying toomuch for people just kind of

(01:08:51):
maintain business over time andthey weren't necessarily
incentivized to land newaccounts, and finally we made a
change to it at the end.
We made a change to it at theend and I think my advice to
people who think about makingchanges, especially around comp
communicate as proactively aspossible.

(01:09:11):
Communicate throughout thethought process.
As soon as you start thinkingabout changing the comp, talk to
your team about it.
Let them know why you'rethinking about changing it,
because the only reason youshould theoretically be thinking
about changing it is because itshould make the business better
.
And sometimes the answer is theunfortunate and it shouldn't be.
But sometimes the answer is wecreated a structure that is not
sustainable for theprofitability of the business

(01:09:33):
long term and a smart employeecan understand that.
It's like hey, if we keep doingthis forever, the business
won't exist in three years, sowe need to make a change.
But ideally the change is hey,we're not growing because we
only compensate you on marginversus compensating you on new
accounts, new logos, and we'remaking this change because we

(01:09:54):
need to land new accounts.
People can understand that.
Give them enough time to digestthe change and don't do an
overnight.
Hey, we're changing your comptomorrow.
We're changing it next quarter,in three months.
So if you need to makeadjustments to anything in your
life or to your book of businessor who you pursue, you have
time to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
So those are just my thoughts on that, especially on
the credit or grief side.
That's one thing we're nevergoing to do is change the comp
structure.
We figured out a way just tomake it work.
You know the owners want.
One thing that the owners havealways been big proponents of is
they want people to make moneyin this industry.

(01:10:40):
They want to help people.
They do a ton for the localcommunity.
We give a lot of money yearover year, but they also want
employees to be taken care of.
They, they, they swore thatthey would never change it and I
mean I've got cradle to gravereps that you know.
They, they like what they doand they make 75 grand a year.
And I got guys that come in andthey make five, make $75,000 a

(01:11:03):
year.
And I got guys that come in andthey make $500,000 and $600,000
a year.
But it doesn't happen overnight.
They've been grinding for sixyears and they continue to land
business and scale their teamsand the only time that we've
ever made a change is on thesplit side, because we pay
outside sales reps for the lifeof the business and we started

(01:11:27):
to see them get comfortable.
So now it's if you don't hityour new revenue goal year over
year.
You're going to get yourcommission cut in half and and I
hate, I, you know it it reallydestroyed us when we had to do
it, but you had to do it becausethey got to.
They just got laid back, youknow?
And?
And why would you not want tocontinue to scale and grow?
That's the fun part of the job.
What are you going to dositting there every single day?
And the set, the outside salesgroup, is the only group that's

(01:11:49):
allowed to work from home.
Everybody else that's in thisoffice every day.
We don't do remote, nor will weever do remote, other than
unless we're forced to.
We did it for three weeksduring covid, but um yeah, it's,
it's definitely it's.
It's tough and and and, like Isaid, we pay out a lot in terms

(01:12:09):
of commission, but it's for hardwork.
You know, the the equation weuse has been around for a while
and other companies have used ita long time ago in the past and
it's there.
It's just if you ever bring inlike an equity company, they
would be like, well, we can't dothis, you know because then
there's not enough money to passaround.
So, um it, yeah, it's good, wewon't change it.

(01:12:34):
I'm not going to change it.
I swore I wouldn't and I've gotpeople to work for me from
other brokers and that's whythey left us, because every year
it's a different pay structure.
You know it's like every year.
They realize, well, we needmore money from somebody, so
we're going to take it from ouremployees and I'm like, well,
I'll never, do that here.
I'll promise you that.
And to this day, when I seethose reps I've got one small

(01:12:57):
office in Chattanooga.
I still see those guys it it'slike, no, you're right, thank
you for not changing it.
You thought you were full of it.
You know, three or four yearsago, when we started.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
So it's a tough one.
I love, I love everything youjust said.
I mean, it's, it's, it's, it'smy concern Anytime you see a
company gets acquired acquiredwhether it's an investment from
private equity or acquired byanother strategic or anyone and
there's a new decision maker atthe top of the food chain and

(01:13:31):
they want to see improvement,they want to see more profit.
There's the short-sighted wayto do it and there's the
long-term way to do it.
The long-term way is you keephiring, you stick to what works
and over time you see the profitcome in.
But most people aren't thatpatient.

(01:13:55):
So the short-term way to do itis you got to take the money
from someone.
It's in the business.
You can pull a lever and gofrom 95% acceptance for your
customers to 85% and stop takingthe 10% that you promised you
would take.
But you're losing money on it.
Boom, you just took that moneyfrom your customer and short
term you will probably see aprofit boost.
But will that customer awardyou volume in next year's bid?

(01:14:18):
I hope not, probably not.
And the other people you cantake the money from is your
employees.
It's not hard to do, it's asimple hey, I'm paying you 20%
today.
Tomorrow I'm paying you 15.
Boom, there's 5% back in mypocket, and in that situation
there are ramifications of thatdecision too.

(01:14:39):
But it's like that's just howit works, it's always been that
way, you know.
There's a reason.
I think your philosophy alignswith the fact that your company,
nine years ago, had 20 people,today has 684, and you have not
had to take a dollar of outsidecapital.

(01:15:01):
This is, to me, um one of thebest success stories in freight,
and I think that anyone wouldwould would benefit from
understanding how you guys didit.

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):
Um I hate seeing I've never been well.
I say I've never been likereally rude to people.
Like cold call, you knowsomeone reaches out to me,
especially LinkedIn or email.
It's like, come on, guys, I'mnot going to tell them, but I'll
blow you off.
If you just email me all daylong or you send LinkedIn
messages, I'm just going toarchive the shit out of them

(01:15:34):
because cold call me right, giveme a call and I'll call it to
you.
But if you want to do the lazyemail blaster router, let your
CRM do that, then so be it.
I don't want to talk about it,but it's like when you have.

(01:15:54):
I'm sitting here watchingsomebody jump up and down.
I think they landed a customer.
I just lost my train of thought.
I love it.
No, it's awesome, it's prettycool to see, but no, it's like
shoot.
I can't remember what I wasgoing to say now, to be honest,

(01:16:17):
with you when people are coldcalling you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
versus sending you emails, you archive them.

Speaker 2 (01:16:21):
Yeah, like, yeah, they don't, I don't talk to them
right.
When people are cold callingyou, versus sending emails, you
archive them.
Yeah, I don't talk to them,right, but if they do cold call.
But there's something I wastrying to get to.
There's a point with what wewere saying.
I can't recall now, but it goesback to the same thing.
Out here on the floor I pick upthe phones.
We have reps that want to sitthere and blast emails all day
long, and then I look at theircall volume on the sheet that's

(01:16:41):
sitting right here.
This is a lot of red becausethey're just not doing the right
things.
But yeah, sorry.
I got to stop looking over there.
They're all high five andsomething's going on, so I can't
wait to find out what it is,but that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Yeah, listen, I you know it's fear much easier, like
I was kind of afraid of coldcalls and still kind of am.
It feels like it's so like rudejust calling someone out of the
blue, and I spent a lot of timeand effort crafting what I
thought were good emails and itworked for me to some extent.

(01:17:16):
But I'm a firm believer thatthere's no right way to sell and
at the end of the day, you'reselling to a person and that
person has agency over theirdecisions and the best thing you
can probably do is figure out away to empathize with that
person's position.
That you archive all the emailsand the LinkedIn messages and

(01:17:43):
respect and appreciate the phonecall is because you've done the
phone call for 20 years and soyou have an appreciation for
that Someone on the other endwho's reaching out to you.
They only know that maybe ifthey listen to this episode of
the show, but also just they'dhave to somehow.
Yeah, but part of the research,that's part of the job in

(01:18:03):
selling, is figuring out howyour customer wants to buy.
Some people are like you andthey they respect the phone call
.
Others Like I hate getting coldcalls and I I would maybe prefer
an email that I think iswell-crafted and shows that
someone like I remember we had ahuge, huge real estate deal

(01:18:24):
with our last office, like itwas, I don't know 90,000 square
feet.
So whoever the real estatebroker was was going to get paid
a lot of money on that deal,and the person who we used was.
I went to University ofMichigan and this person sent me
a cold email out of the blue.
It was like two paragraphs andit had so much insight into me

(01:18:45):
as a person and my business thatI was so impressed I forwarded.
Their email to my sales teamwas like this is how you cold
email someone.
I ended up giving her all ofour business and she ended up
getting paid on a 90,000 squarefoot deal in downtown Chicago.
What does that say?
It's just like I think peoplelike to buy the way that maybe

(01:19:06):
they like to sell.
Like you know, you have to lookat the individual who you're
bought, who's who's buying fromyou and like what are they how?
How are they wired?
I'm someone who likes the coldemail, so when I get a good cold
email, I respond to it.
You're someone who prefers acold call.
You've done the cold callingand you respect that.
So I don't know.
I just think there's a lessonin there for salespeople that
there's not one right way to doit.

(01:19:27):
What you should do is tryeverything.

Speaker 2 (01:19:31):
I remember what I was going to say when I was talking
about the cold calling, beforethey started jumping up and down
, was that you know, when itcomes to like cold calling, I
never try to be rude.
I hope no one puts a recordingout of me one day.
I'm usually pretty cool if youcold call me, right, but lately,
because we don't have thatequity backing, I mean every

(01:19:52):
other call if somebody wanted togive us money or acquire us or
whatever it may be.
And I hear that employees allthe time, are they ever going to
sell?
No, I mean they, they have noreason to sell.
They, they love the game.
They're not the owners aren'tin as much as they used to be,
but they still are and they loveto see the growth and it.

(01:20:13):
You know they, they don't gettired of it.
But man, I I've gotten to be acomplete ass when it comes to
these people calling me.
Now it's like 15, 20 times aday.
Again, I'll answer the phone,but the financial backers have
been just going haywire with usand stuff, and most of the time
it's through email and LinkedIn,but I just don't even connect

(01:20:37):
anymore.
You know, it gets old, a bitpart of it.
But yeah, you're right, the,yeah, the cold calling piece of
it.
It's just, yes, that's the game.

Speaker 1 (01:20:52):
So, as we get ready to wrap here, I wanted to spend
a couple minutes on technology,ai, specifically because you
know you're an ideal buyer.
I imagine you're gettingbombarded by every AI company
who I've interviewed, plus allthe ones I haven't.
How do you think aboutdeploying that type of

(01:21:15):
technology in your business andhow do you even think about
evaluating what makes sense foryour team to be using?
And, specifically, what I thinkis interesting is you mentioned
, I think, on average, like acradle, the grave rep can get up
to about 15 loads a day,managed by themselves, and I'm
sure what the Vumas and the drumkits and the happy robots are

(01:21:35):
going to sell to you is we canturn 15 into 50.
And I'm just curious how do youthink about that, given your
kind of very customer-centricmindset of not wanting to fail
on execution?
How do you think about that?

Speaker 2 (01:21:51):
So at the end of last year I told the team no matter
what we do, we're never going tohave AI.
I don't want it.
No, it is Well.
That's why, again, I said thatat the end of last year.
That's shifted since then.
But well, there's two parts ofAI.
You've got the bots answeringthe phones and negotiating rates

(01:22:18):
with carriers, which is I'mprobably going to have that by
the end of this year.
That's like an initiative forQ3.
So all of the happy robots andboomers that I said would be a
Q3, q4, they're probably gettingready to call me sometime here

(01:22:38):
this month.
But you know, mostly AI hasbeen more like just it's more
automation than anything.
You know, mostly AI has beenmore like just it's more
automation than anything.
So you know all of our backoffice.
You know it used to be thatwhen a carrier invoices us, you
know we're waiting two weeks toget an invoice, you know.
And from a carrier, at least aweek.
When they get home on a weekendthey do their paperwork, they

(01:23:00):
send it to us and then they sendit to us and then you know it
takes us a week to invoice ourcustomers.
So we use Navix on, you know,the back end and with Text
Locate.
So I'm getting PODs on 88% ofmy shipments within 24 hours of
delivery.
Most of the time as theydeliver, you know Text Locate as
soon as that driver gets to thereceiver.

(01:23:21):
Hey, as soon as you have a copyof that bill of lading you need
to send us a photo.
They take a picture of it andthey send it to us and
Tex-O-Cate puts it into oursystem and Navix takes it and
uploads it and then invoices ourcustomer for us.
So I'm invoicing our customersin 72 hours or less, which has

(01:23:44):
really turned around our AR.
So I went from having 40 or 50people to three that manage
carrier payables and deal withjust processing paperwork.
So we've really automated thebackend on the office side of
things.
But when it comes to that, buton the front end, we work with

(01:24:05):
Vuma.
Jesse and that team are greaton.
Like you know, right now it'smore like auto reading emails
and pulling rate data to them.
Instead of having to have fivetabs that you've got a pin where
you get a review and then youget a truck stop, you got every
other tool that you use forrating.
We now bring all of this datain, including our API bots that

(01:24:26):
you know.
Chad and AVRL are awesome andwe use them and we're quoting
over 100,000 shipments a monthand the bots are more profitable
than the people rating here onthe floor, you know.
So we're winning at a good rateand we're getting the margin
that we need in a tough market.
That's good to see.

(01:24:46):
But you know it brings in thebot rate.
It'll bring in, you know, anyother tool that you use.
And then we also have our owntool that we built ourselves
from a historical ratinganalysis and it gives you a
breakdown of your carriers andwhat their averages are and what
we suggest to sell.
So Vuma is doing that for uswhat their averages are and what

(01:25:06):
we suggest to sell.
So Vuma is doing that for us.
And then Vuma has alsopartnered with McLeod Software
on the load building side.
So you know we still haveshimmers.
Today that will screenshot orsnip an Excel sheet that says
here are the 15 shimmers fortomorrow.
Well, it's going to take thatemail, read them and build them
for you in our CMS.
Read them and build them foryou and and and our TMS.

(01:25:26):
So we, once we have finishedautomating and all of that works
, the last piece will be AIentering the towns and it's
going to be mainly on just thecarrier side.
From like a rate negotiationstandpoint, I think I can
control carrier offers a littlebit better.
Obviously, negotiations a lotbetter.
You'll hear me 100 times a day.

(01:25:48):
Just think if you would havebought $10 less on this shipment
for all the volume that youmove, how much money you could
have potentially made right.
So it's like we know a lot ofthat's going on in the industry
today and plus you know thephones are blowing up all day
long.
That's going on in the industrytoday and plus you know the
phones are blowing up all daylong.
So we don't want carriers thatreally need to get in and talk

(01:26:14):
to someone.
You know whether it's trying tobook a shipment or they need
something else.
We're going to probably go thatroute with one of those three
or four that you've alreadymentioned I don't know who yet
We've still got to start thatvetting process, still got to
start that vetting process.
I'm very loyal to people thatI've met and spoke.
It shows that they'repersistent, but they don't annoy
me when it comes to the sales.

(01:26:34):
And if you reach outperiodically and you don't annoy
me, then I'll probably give youan opportunity to at least come
and pitch the way.
So, between Happy Robot andVuma and a few others, we're
gonna talk to them at some point, but when it comes to the
customer side other than API botrating never.

(01:26:54):
They need to be talking to arep at all times.
You know we look at responsetimes for emails.
You're supposed to respond toyour customers in two minutes or
less.
You better learn how to manageyour emails well.
To do that, you better answeryour cell phone.
I've only called and we do havepeople that randomly reach out
to reps to make sure they'reanswering their phones at night.

(01:27:16):
I don't want customers talkingto AI, but carriers they like it
, from what we've heard, theones that we deal with.
I mean, we're starting to getAI calling in on shipments to us
and it's weird to sound atfirst, you know, and the reps
like, should we even use them?
Do we trust it?
Well, you know, if highwaysvetted them and they fall within

(01:27:39):
our criteria, then yeah, usethem.
It's going to go to that atsome point, but it's not going
to go.
I don't want anybody reachingout to me that's going to say,
hey, we can automate your emailsfor sales or we can give you a
salesperson to call for you andgenerate leads.
No, you don't know us and youdon't know how to sell us, so we
don't want you for that.
So it's mainly just going to beon carry negotiations.

(01:28:01):
That's also going to help uswith risk.
I mean, risk has been tough.
We had 33 stolen shipments lastyear.
You know.
We, just knock on wood, had onethis year but somebody you know
, they, they, they impersonatedus and the carrier didn't know

(01:28:22):
how to catch a fake email sothey rerouted the shipment in
transit.
Wildest thing it's the firsttime I've ever heard that.
So you know, I think if weautomate the carrier negotiation
side and the free booking sideof it at some point, that'll
help us stay within the rulesthat we define for carriers to
haul and it also gives the repsmore time at the desk to sell

(01:28:42):
and manage their customers.
So that's where we're probablygoing with it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:45):
But after that, who knows?

Speaker 2 (01:28:47):
what's next?

Speaker 1 (01:28:49):
yeah, look, there's there's.
There's inarguable value injust being able to answer the
phone.
I mean that, that's I've.
I've not been able to think ofa reason not to have the carrier
ai tool just to answer thephone.
I mean what they say once theyanswer it, like if I trust them
to book a load or vet thecarrier.

(01:29:11):
I don't know about that, Itrust it'll get there.
But the amount of abandonedphone calls that every brokerage
deals with, just because youpost the wrong loads at the
wrong time and your phones blowup and there's just not enough
people to supply and demand tosupport the amount of calls that
come in at a certain time,being able to make your

(01:29:33):
bandwidth unlimited to answerthe calls via AI, even if it's
just to answer the call, takethe care information and have
someone call back, that's valuethat you just can't get with
people unless you're wayoverpaying to overstaff at all
times.
It doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
I agree, most customers are going to call
their reps on their cell anyways, and so then sometimes that
makes them ignore the desk phonethat's ringing, and we just
figured out a way to log downall the phones at a certain
volume.
So now all of those phones areringing because they'll mute it
half the time, and that'sunacceptable to me.
But um yeah, at some point, youknow we're not taking care of

(01:30:11):
the, the carriers, the way weshould when it comes to the end
on call piece of it.
Um, you know it's.
It's weird.
If you look up like our googlereviews, we seem to have a lot
more google reviews for a, abroker, than and we're not as
big as some of the larger onesout there that don't have hardly
any.
I don't know if they figure outa way to manage them or remove

(01:30:32):
them or what.

Speaker 1 (01:30:33):
But the biggest thing you're going to find is it's
just you don't answer the phone.

Speaker 2 (01:30:39):
Like I'm being a carrier rip in the beginning of
the industry.
I've still got carriers thatrun with me today that I signed
on through pen and paper wayback in the day at Robinson.
You got to take care of them.
If a carrier has an issue, youdo it the right way and you
reach out to us.
We're going to take care of you.
If you want to throw a badreview, we hunt you down and we

(01:31:00):
call you because we want to fixthe problem.
Sometimes we're going to leavethe review out there because you
know what?
You're not happy that I didn'tpay you what you wanted.
Well then don't take theshipment.
You know it's like that whole,you know I mean it's either we
don't answer the phone or wedidn't pay them what they want,
right?
Or, oh my God, axel's posted ashipment for 60 cents a mile.

(01:31:24):
Cool, it was a one pallet man.
One pallet, 500 pounds.
Right, we posted a pallet.
You know it can go on anybody'struck.
You know, if you want to try touse that as as a media ploy to
say that we're paying 60 cents amile on a shipment, well then
go ahead, do it.
But um, that's a different tearI won't go to.

Speaker 1 (01:31:42):
But oh good, I can personally attestest if someone
were to listen to this and thinkI should check Axel's reviews
on Google and judge them basedon them, especially if they have
more than others.
Let me be clear about a fewthings.
When I was leading Molo, I wasapproached at least a hundred
times by people and companieswho claimed that they could

(01:32:03):
magically fix our Google reviewsby getting rid of all the bad
ones and putting up good ones.
I never said okay to it becauseI don't believe in buying that
kind of fake stuff.
So the companies that you dosee without reviews, they're
paying for people to take careof them.
And the reviews that arenegative, they are, like you
said, they're situational andthey're not representative of

(01:32:25):
necessarily cultural problemswhere it's okay yeah, this guy
offers 60 percent per mile on aload, or he doesn't answer the
phone, like as a broker.
Like that was.
One of the biggest things Istruggled with and fought with
my team about was the abandonedcall percentage, where a carrier

(01:32:45):
called in and we couldn'tanswer the phone in time.
Like you want to do the best,you can answer the phones, but
certain times you can't, um, andI do think that that problem
will be solved with ai as soonas you deploy it.
Yeah but, you know, at the sametime.

Speaker 2 (01:33:02):
I sometimes like the negative reviews because not
because I want anything to benegative but there's something
occurring that I'm not seeingnow that I used to be able to
see everything.
You know, we never created anexecutive level until I could
manage people anymore.
I think I made it 76 people atone time.
I'm like you know, that's justtoo many to be productive and

(01:33:24):
efficient people at one time.
If I'm like you know, that'sjust too many to be productive
and efficient.
Um, you know, so it's.
It's kind of the same thing now.
It's like we can't seeeverything that happens in this
company.
But trust me, if I get a review, I'm you know, hey, team, you
better track this down andfigure out what we've done wrong
and we're gonna fix it.
And, um, as much as you know II love to say that I'm probably

(01:33:46):
a good leader.
I've learned a lot over theyears.
If there's one thing that'llfire me up and you're going to
hear me yell is if you mistreata carrier or you don't take care
of something like you'resupposed to.
If you know, at the new hirelunch.
I mean again, we're not perfect.
We grow at a rapid pace.
We had 35 people in this classand their job there is to meet

(01:34:09):
us, meet their potential newmanagers.
Because when we do like alittle bit of personality
matching, but you know, we hirea class of people and then the
managers have to interact withthem to figure out who they want
on their team and they kind oflike fight for it a little bit.
And well, you need to get morebusiness in the next 30 days
before they get out of trainingand then maybe you can get that
person right.

(01:34:30):
But so we kind of use itinternally for a game.
But when these reps are askingthem questions and they're not,
you know, answering them, I'mlike man, not only are you know
you're not going to be able tomanage this person, you're not
selling the company.
But if you're not answeringquestions here, you're not going
to be able to manage thisperson, you're not selling the
company.
But if you're not answeringquestions here, you're not
answering them on the floor,then you're not even talking to
the carriers and taking care ofthem.

(01:34:50):
Like I lost my stuff Monday andI haven't done it in a while,
but I will go out there and Iwill rip some tail because in
the end I take it personal.
You know you you've got to justhandle it and some people don't
love it if I'm yelling, but umtake care of people, so
sometimes I like the negativereviews.

(01:35:11):
It helps me fine tune where wehave the gaps Um.

Speaker 1 (01:35:17):
I think that's well said.
I mean, I, I, I, I used to comblike Reddit and Facebook, like
Chad Boblitz group, look, and Iwould just search Molo and I
would just look for any timethere was a negative review and
I'd send it to someone on ourteam Tell me what happened here,
figure this out, let me knowwhat to do.
Or I just called the carriermyself and figure it out,
looking for the same things.
Sometimes I would call into thecompany and cause I was so

(01:35:42):
frustrated by this you knowpeople not answering the phones,
or how were people answeringthe phones?
And I would call him,pretending to be a carrier, and
just personally rate theexperience I was getting.
And I think that's an importantI think, for it's hard to to
manage scale and and for peoplewho are I don't know if you're a
perfectionist, but I think youwant things if in your world,

(01:36:06):
your values are represented onevery phone call, in every email
, in every interaction with thecarriers, with fellow employees,
with the customers, and youprobably preach it consistently
because you know that everydeviation from those values, you
know that every deviation fromthose values, even if it's one
time, that is losing youbusiness, it's like every action

(01:36:30):
we take is either helping usgrow or it's hurting us.
And it's even the action of howI respond as a sales rep, how I
respond to the carrier rep whobooked my load.
That's either helping us growor it's hurting us.
It's creating friction betweenus and you can't manage every
conversation.
But you need to be able to stepin when you see little things

(01:36:52):
like how your manager engages anew employee.
That is representative of howthey're behaving across the
board and with the managers.
It's way worse than just a rep,because the manager has so much
more influence and if thatperson's not behaving in
accordance to the values, thatis a killer to the culture, to

(01:37:14):
so much of the business.
So I align with frustration.

Speaker 2 (01:37:18):
Yeah, it kills me.
I'm not an emotional person,but when I talk about this place
I am and I get so fired up.
You know I get pissed off and Iget teary eyed and I get I get
all hyped up and you know Idon't worry about it anymore.
I used to, but you know you gotto, you got to do it right from

(01:37:39):
the beginning and we've done.
We've done a lot.
I don't know how to say.
I get upset now.
It's like you want it done rightand I hold everybody out here
accountable to do it right.
We've got a good thing goingand I want everybody to be just
as dedicated as me and care justas much as me.
And if they don't, I don't wantthem here.
So I let them see me get upsetlike this sometimes.

(01:38:01):
Just, it's a good business tobe in, it's a great company to
be in, and and um, I want us tobe different, you know, and they
say how are you different?
You know it's it's how we'regoing to take care of our
customer and our carrier in theend.
You know it's how we're goingto present ourselves.
Um, you know there's a littlebar across the street.

(01:38:24):
If they come over and tell me,man, I'm like, how do our
employees?
The one thing I ask thebartender is how do our
employees tip you when they comeeat lunch?
And I'll get mad, because if wewere going to take care of you,
then take care of yoursurroundings and the people in
your community too.
It's just little things thatadd up.
I mean, I grew up in a toughlife, so uh, um now that we've

(01:38:49):
got this I.
I, you know I take it personal.
It's not even my company, it is.
You know, john Drew is likethis, your company as much as
ours.
And um, uh, they take care ofme but um, they like that's one
good thing about it.
You know, when they hired meand that's one good thing about
it, you know, when they hired meI was not a good culture person
.
I wasn't a good like.

(01:39:09):
I mean, I wasn't a good leaderin the beginning.
I've learned a lot over theyears and I didn't have a ton of
energy.
And they're like, you know, yourun the business the way you
want to run it, but you run theculture the way we want you to
run it.
And for the first three or fouryears that we worked together,
hey, this is what we're doing inthe business and then this is
what we're going to do with theculture.
And I just take it personal.
I mean I get upset sometimesjust because I care.

Speaker 1 (01:39:35):
That's what it is.
I was going to say that I meanpeople want to work for someone
who cares, and I think that mostpeople don't understand the way
that you and I do when we saythings like you have to take
care of each other and you haveto take care of the carriers and
the customers, like it justsounds like words, but there's
so much meaning when you get tothe depth of what it really

(01:39:58):
means, because it is in everysingle interaction and there's a
reason why you're looking atthe reviews, like yeah, it's one
shipment out of hundreds ofthousands, but again, it's, it's
one shipment that's detractingfrom our ability to keep growing
together, to keep buildingtogether.
And it's a system that when it'swhen it's working like a

(01:40:22):
symphony orchestra, that that'slike it, it's beautiful and it
everyone can win.
But when there are cracks, it'sjust it's.
It's like a sinking ship, likethe water's getting in one hole.
You got to plug, you got toplug all the holes and it's.
It's just really hard to do so.
Like having people, one,showing your employees that you

(01:40:44):
care, being willing to get upsetin front of them from time to
time, um, even cry sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:40:49):
like it's, that's it's interior, I mean my wife's
like man, you're more emotionalwith your work than you are with
your family.
It's like I was just never.
You know my dad's always a hardass.
You know he was.
I don't think I ever saw thatguy cry, ever, so it's like I've
always been that way.
I I don't like cry, but I getall watery talking about it.
You know, it's just.

(01:41:10):
I want everybody to have a goodlife and work hard and take care
of people and take care ofothers.
And you know this, people,people are like you're in
freight big deal.
You move a and b.
Well, you know what?
All of these people not just us, but the ch's, you know, and
the molars of the world andeveryone else we're the ones
that were still working 24 7during covid to get product to

(01:41:32):
the shelves when nobody elsecould take it.
You know, and not even us,we're just connecting the
carriers that were willing toput themselves at risk and go
out there and do it.
You know, and and it's like youare doing something for the
world.
when you're in this industry,it's always I think it's badass.
I think it's a great thing.

(01:41:52):
It's like someone else is likewe want to do something to help
the environment.
We're doing something to helpour world get product from A to
B.
And I remember, during COVID Imean we were, you know we all
got it quickly.
I got in the very beginning andand um, after that it was you
know what.

(01:42:12):
We're just going to be here 15,20 hours a day and we're going
to buy everybody that's heremargaritas and food and whatever
you want.
But we're just going to sithere and and I mean you couldn't
not, it was non-stop justhelping people you know to where
it's like.
You know I did a couple costplus scenarios with people.
You know where it's like.
You know they're like are youserious?
You're gonna do this plus fivepercent?

(01:42:34):
Just give me whatever you gotlike.
If you keep getting bailed andyou need to get this product to
the shelves, just let us know.
We're just gonna take care ofit.
So, and I want people to bethat way today and they just got
to care.
Um, probably care too much, butthat's all right, there's no,
caring too much there's a ifthat's my fault and I will take

(01:42:55):
that 100 I'm with you.

Speaker 1 (01:42:59):
well, listen, um, this has been awesome.
I really appreciate how honestand open you've been talking
about the good and the bad andeverything in between, and I
think that I think that myaudience will have a really good
understanding of what a greatbusiness Axel is coming out of
this and, frankly, what a kindof leader you are.

Speaker 2 (01:43:18):
So um, there are other brokers that call me all
the time and I give them advice.
I mean it's like we're all init together.
You said in the beginning ourindustry is a huge.
There's a huge industry.
It's a huge market, there'senough for everybody.
It's like you got to help eachother sometimes and you know
some.
I remember someone made acomment a few days ago like man,

(01:43:39):
you sure are open and honest.
I'm just going to tell you howit is.
I don't want to hide anything.
I'm not going to tell you we'vegot how we pay and how we
structure our company, thethings that we know set us apart
and why people want to work forus.
But if you're struggling, I'mgoing to help you, whether
you're a broker or a carrier orwhatever it may be.

(01:44:00):
It's just I don't know.
I wish everybody would thinkthat way sometimes.
You still want to be the besteither I want to smoke everybody
in the top 25.
But you know, like you said,it's like you want to win.
If you get beat, then I'm likeman, how in the world did they
beat us this year and grow thatmuch more than us?
That?
I'm digging but that's part ofthe competitive nature of all of

(01:44:21):
us too.

Speaker 1 (01:44:26):
Yeah, that's something that has changed for
me quite a bit, because I usedto be too competitive, like
ruthlessly competitive, where Ihated all my competitors.
I wanted everyone I wanted justus to win and everyone else to
lose, and I had beef with a lotof companies.
And now I think the podcast hashelped with this.
But I realize, like we likeguys, I'm cheering for Axel

(01:44:46):
today and you know I think I wasbefore cause I generally
understood but hearing this, youand I are cut from the same
cloth and and I know that like Ican appreciate the way you run
your business and so I'mcheering for you guys, and like
I don't want to take business atyour expense whenever I get to
do brokerage again, and so Ithink I appreciate the way you
think about it, and that's likethere's room for a lot of us to

(01:45:08):
win, and I'm hopeful that theright ones continue to win.
The ones who do take care oftheir employees, who care about
taking care of the carriers andwho just actually do what they
say with the customers.
The ones who are puttingwhatever nonsense in their
marketing to make stuff up sothat they can sound different.
Those are the guys who I'mactively cheering against and

(01:45:29):
I'm not afraid to admit that.
But the ones who are just kindof straightforward, tell it like
it is honest and doing theirbest.
I hope we all win.

Speaker 2 (01:45:38):
Yeah, sam, I agree with you.
Day in and day out, man, it iswhat it is.
I get fired.
I don't look at LinkedIn as itis what it is.
I I get, I get fired.
I don't look at LinkedIn asmuch as I used to anymore just
because I mean I see some of thestuff flooding out there from
some of the other brokers.
I'm just like man, you'remaking a fool out of all of us.
But you know there are a lot ofreally good ones out there too,

(01:46:00):
that you know.

Speaker 1 (01:46:01):
I agree, my buddies, have started them and are they
going to work?

Speaker 2 (01:46:07):
for them today.
You want to see them allsucceed.
Hopefully I have better success, but I don't wish failure on
anybody.
It's just like why do it?
I'm like you.
I used to be the same exact wayF everyone else.
I'm glad to see you droppingand whatever.
It's not like that anymore.

(01:46:28):
Um, that's why we don't get toshows.
It's like you, you don't.
What are you doing like?
There's no point to prove.
You know if, if I go and talkto every single broker at every
single sure every year, that'snot going to grow my business.
The customers don't know that.
So, um, it's still good to getout there and network and talk

(01:46:48):
to people and learn somethingyou may not have learned before,
or get a great idea.
I hear that all the time.
But, um, yeah, I don't know,love it are you gonna get back?
into it one day maybe yeah, Igot it.

Speaker 1 (01:47:02):
I mean, just this conversation is taking me back.
It makes me want to get backinto it tomorrow, which I can't
yet.
But, um, I'm I'm hopeful that Ican get my non-compete stuff
figured out, hopefully soonerthan later.
But whenever and um, and then Igot, I gotta get back into it.

Speaker 2 (01:47:17):
I miss, I miss it so much a lot of people that think
that we're fake and we just talkout of our ass and we don't do
that.
If you ever come here, likeI've let people come here and
I'll walk them through thebuilding and it's like no man,
it's.
Uh, this is how we operate,this is what we do, you know,
and um, we have a lot of peoplethat stay because of it and some

(01:47:38):
leave because it's just a toughjob, but we try to make it as
fun as we can and uh, but we, wedo care, we care.
Probably, again, like I say, Icare too much.
I know there's not such a thing, but yeah, it's awesome.
I love it well, listen, I've.

Speaker 1 (01:47:55):
I've kept you for longer than I said I would, but
um, really appreciate theconversation and, uh, I think my
own time made it happen, soyeah, you.

Speaker 2 (01:48:05):
So thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:48:08):
And with that, that's all we got.
We'll see you next week, you.

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Ep. #73: Shawn McLeod, President of Axle Logistics

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