June 14, 2024 • 67 mins
What happens when South Asian couples migrate to the United States post-marriage? In this episode, we talk with Shalini and Chet Dayal about their unique experiences of isolation, cultural adjustment, and familial pressures. Shalini, a seasoned marriage and family therapist, shares her journey from an arranged marriage to a thriving career, offering valuable insights into the challenges couples face. We talk about the impact of extended family expectations and cultural integration on relationships, and hear firsthand how Shalini's expertise helps couples navigate through these complexities.
We broaden our lens to examine South Asian arranged marriages within the context of gender roles, cultural differences, and evolving family dynamics. From the generational gap in family expectations to the pressures of maintaining traditional values while adapting to Western life, we uncover the intricacies that shape these relationships. Through engaging conversations and professional insights, we present a nuanced view of how immigrant families can foster better understanding and navigate the challenges of cultural assimilation.
To find out more about what Shalini and Chet do in our community, check out their website here.
If you would like to contact The Fremont Podcast, please text us here.
Petrocelli Homes has been a key sponsor of The Fremont Podcast from the beginning. If you are looking for a realtor, get in touch with Petrocelli Homes on Niles Blvd in Fremont.
Ohlone College Flea Market happens every second Saturday at the lower parking lot at Ohlone College. You can find out more information about them not their webpage or on their Instagram.
Minutemen Press in Fremont is your community city go to for all your community print and design needs. What ever you want to print or customize, Minutemen Press is here for you. You can find them at 44141 Fremont Blvd, Fremont, CA 94538.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
So it's a huge pressure, and even when you
think you want to be supportiveof your wife, that she's in the
right, this is the way you'veagreed to raise your children,
this is how the world is aroundyou.
You think that's the best thingthat you and her are doing.
You've got to stave off thatpressure from the parents, and
(00:27):
so men either fold and you knowoh, my mom says you need to do
this or they listen to the momand say yeah, sure, sure, sure,
but then blow it off, or theybuild distance.
It's like yeah, you can comevisit for a week and then we'll
(00:48):
you know, we'll manage thetheatrics and then you'll be
gone and we'll do our own thingbut the couples who are raised,
born and raised in india, butthey're coming here
post-marriage, or often thewoman is coming here from
post-marriage.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
One of the things which I know I went through was
isolation Not talked aboutIsolation and then, consequently
, depression, until they areassimilated into the workforce
or they go back to college.
And I'm saying this because Ilived that.
I lived that experience.
This was foreign to him.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Coming to you straight from Fremont,
California.
This is the Fremont Podcast,dedicated to telling the stories
of the past and present of thepeople and places of the city of
Fremont, one conversation at atime.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
The staff at Ohlone College on the Fremont campus or
at least some of the staff atOhlone College on the Fremont
campus are fond of keeping trackof the birds that live on
campus.
I'm here in the upper-levelroundabout and I'm looking at at
(02:08):
least two woodpeckers are thereusually more than two.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
There can be as many as probably 10 to 12.
There's one, two, three,there's six palm trees here and,
as you can see, they are veryheavily yeah, pecked with holes.
Yeah, especially toward the topyeah so, and what I actually
love is that there's new growthat the top of the palm trees,
and that is from the woodpeckersstoring acorns and other seeds.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
It's actually not palm tree growth oh, like there
are oak, there are oak.
Yeah, you're right, there areoak trees growing on the top of
the palm trees.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
There are at least maybe two sets of ravens who
have a presence on campus.
There's another pair thatnested on the top of the bell
tower over by the Smith Center,and then this nest we just
noticed this year.
And who's the we Like how manypeople on campus that you know
(03:16):
of like enjoy keeping track ofthe birds?
Well, I think a lot of us do.
I think that's one of thebeautiful things about working
so close to nature is that youdo have access to wildlife, and
I would say the majority of thatwildlife are birds and insects.
A fair amount of people havenoticed this nest.
It's in a walkway space whereyou know a number of people
(03:41):
probably pass through.
We have a number of swallows onthe campus.
They always return every spring, so everybody who's worked here
for any length of time knowsthe swallows, and last year and
the year before a whole bunch ofus, including even our
photography department, gotreally into following a blue
(04:01):
heron nest.
We've had two sets of nests upin a blue pine tree on campus.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
The ravens are currently just sitting on a
outdoor stair banister, kind ofsurveying the land.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
I believe that's mommy or daddy, I cannot fully
tell and then one of the babies,and the baby is sitting back a
little further than mommy.
That mommy has been veryprotective the last couple of
days.
I take a little bit of solaceseeing that she's actually
perched right there, because twodays ago, in an attempt to get
(04:41):
a slightly better look at thenest, I opened the door from the
building to that stairwell.
I turned and looked to the leftand there she was, coming
straight at me.
I freaked out and I ran backinside and closed the door
quickly.
I really do believe it's that.
You know, her babies were in apretty vulnerable state.
(05:03):
They were just learning to fly.
In fact, one of them hadn'tfledged yet and she was feeding
it actually just a short whilebefore I stepped out there.
So I probably should have knownbetter.
Maybe she was just attemptingto land where she is right now,
but it certainly seemed like shewas coming right at me.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
In the small line of windows that are at the top of
the gym is a long row of windowsand in one of those is very
obviously the nest.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Right and even just a little further down the
building, under the eaves ofthat kind of those windows, you
can see a swallow nest as wellyeah, so there are so many birds
on this campus?
There really are.
There's a lot of songbird, uh,birds who love, you know,
picking at the olives down olivelane.
(05:57):
Uh, we have ravens and otherraptors.
We have hawks around andoccasionally a heron or an egret
will stop by.
So it's pretty excitingactually to think about it, to
have access to all that justduring your work day.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Oh, here comes somebody.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
I do think that's one of the babies you can kind of
tell they're not the most secureflyer.
Now I'm curious to see if babymakes his or her way back to mom
.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
I can understand the addiction I haven't even been
here that long and there's lotsof action.
You are listening to episode122 of the Fremont Podcast.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Now here's your host, Ricky B.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Shalini.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
Shalini, is that how you say?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
it Shalini.
Okay, shalini and Chet Chetyeah.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
Okay, I had a great-uncle, Chet.
So my grandfather's brother'sname was Chet, so that was.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
There we go.
Speaker 6 (07:05):
When I saw that I was like oh, I know, I know that
name um.
And you said that you've beenin fremont for 30 years 30 years
.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Okay, yes, I've been in fremont for 30 years.
Wow, what um what was uh?
Speaker 6 (07:16):
tell me about a little bit about your story of
coming to fremont, like whatbrought you here well, marriage.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
So, uh, we were in an arranged marriage and we came
here I mean he was already here.
He was raised in new arrangedmarriage and we came here.
I mean he was already here.
He was raised in New York but Icame here, and in San Francisco
, but I came here post-marriage.
Speaker 6 (07:31):
Okay, yes, wow, were you living in India then at the
time?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Absolutely.
I was born and raised in India.
Yes, wow, very good.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
And then, how long were you living in the United
States?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
So I've been living here almost 40 years.
So, I came as a child, ineighth grade, to New York city.
Then my family migrated to SanFrancisco city proper, okay, and
in 83, we moved to Newark,actually, um, and then, ever
since then, I've been in theNewark Fremont area so long time
(08:04):
in here yeah, I have friendsthat have, uh, have done the
arranged marriage thing, um, andI'm I'm curious for you.
Speaker 6 (08:15):
Like I, I have friends that recently have been
married from an arrangedmarriage and I have friends that
have been married for a longtime from that.
So what was it like?
Uh, I'm just curious like youwere you were in new york, been
there since you were a youngyoung one.
And then how did?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
how did you get matched up with, uh, with
chalene, yeah, so um, for me,you know, I I had been brought
up here, I had dated throughhigh school, college, had had
long-term girlfriends, and atthat point in time I wasn't
dating anybody.
You know, I wasn't and Ihappened to travel to india just
(08:52):
to be with family and stuff,and they always made it a point
for me to go visit a lot ofpeople that seem to have, you
know, eligible young girls.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
So there's a good friends to have.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
And it's just kind of like a nudge, nudge, nudge.
You guys should talk, kind ofthing.
And then it progressed fromthat to okay, let's go out on
another date.
And when we say date, it waslike a group date.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I heard like brother and sister and my cousins were
all along.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And then finally, when we got comfortable, it was
like they would let us kind ofgo off and walk on our own.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
We got ice cream, so it was very kind of gradual, but
the choreographed let's put itthat way, as someone though that
you know kind of like, yourformative years were in New York
City in the United States.
I mean, it seems to me thatthat was that more of.
Was the idea of arrangedmarriage more of a foreign
concept to you?
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Or was it something that you were more familiar with
?
I was totally familiar with itand that that's.
You know.
People living in India or havegone through it.
My parents have gone through it.
My uncles and aunts have gonethrough it.
My parents have gone through it.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
My uncles- and aunts have gone through it.
But here is like that's not howwe do things, right, yeah, yeah
, and so I mean even the factthat you had girlfriends or you
had, you know, it's justinteresting that you had still
had kind of like a drawback tothat, Right.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
And so it just kind of happened.
I mean, because it was the timeand place and where I was in
life that I was amenable to that, right, that's great, yeah.
And then there's you know,other people have a quite a
different story there.
You know, they go back to Indiafor two weeks with the
(10:37):
intention of finding a bride,right, and then everything's set
up, chuck, chuck, chuck, chuck,chuck.
And then by the 13th day youneed to make a decision and it's
done, right, yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
Shalini, how was that experience for you Like?
Did you guys know each otherthen before you went back to
India?
No, no, no, Not at all.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
I was in a different city where I was raised, and so
my parents I mean my- parentsand his parents lived in a
different city in.
Delhi, which most people arefamiliar with, and so my parents
asked me to come over to meethim, and so that's when I went
and met him, and at that time Ihad seen several men and but I
(11:23):
was not.
I was not interested, I was toofocused yeah on my education and
my profession and so, which wasa different one, which was a
different one back then?
Yes, absolutely.
Then, you know, and and I thinkwhen I met him and I was like,
okay, he's, he's a great guy,he's really nice, and I actually
went back, I had I, no, notinterested, thank you very much
(11:46):
Went back and then his parentscalled my parents.
My parents said come back.
I was like, oh, and then myfamily was like I was 23, and my
family was, oh, you're gettingold, now it's time to get
married.
I was like, ah, it's time toget married.
(12:09):
I was like, so, back then, theconcept of a single, like a
woman, a professional woman, wasnot necessarily the most
acceptable one, and still is,and I think this is still.
Women in india still face that.
And, um, my work with clientsand I've, over the years, over
30 years now that I have been inthis profession I've worked,
worked with clients and heardstories of arranged marriages
which are very similar, and westill had a chance of across the
(12:33):
Atlantic dating for about eight, nine months.
So we didn't get married in thattime.
So we just did an engagementceremony.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
But then from there on, like all the you know rules
were off, we could communicatewhere, when, when we wanted, yes
, yes, how much you know?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
So we actually got to know each other really well.
It was like in a long-distancerelationship right For eight,
nine months.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Except that in long-, long distance relationship, the
end of the end eight monthsyou're getting married.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
That's right and was the marriage I'm assuming took
place in India.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
It did.
Yes, yes, that's great, wow.
Speaker 6 (13:11):
So then did you guys move to New York?
Did you move to New York then?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Or was that about the time you started heading back
to Fremont?
So I've been in Fremont for thelast 33 years.
Yes, wow, that's really cool.
Speaker 6 (13:24):
So you mentioned clients and I think that that
kind of leads into part of thereason why we're here.
But you said you have talked toclients over the years that
have had various experiences, sotell me a little bit about what
you do and what it means tohave clients and what you do for
them.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Okay, that's a great question.
So I'm a marriage and familytherapist in fremont and I've
been in my goodness in thisprofession for 30 years, as I
was saying, ever since I startedmy program in psychology, and
I've been working with clientsliterally up and down the bay
area.
I've've worked with differentagencies.
I work with kids, I work withadults and I work with couples
(14:05):
and families.
So in my work here in Fremont,when I started my private
practice, after I did my stintwith a whole bunch of different
agencies, in my work here inFremont, there's a lot of
different cultures and it gaveme the privilege of working with
a lot of South Asian cultures,because there's many here and in
(14:28):
many South Asian culturesacross the board, and I'm
talking about, let's say, fromBhutan and Myanmar that's what
it's called Bangladesh, india,sri Lanka, malaysia, thailand,
pakistan, afghanistan and thenthe UAE.
So pretty much along thatcorridor, arranged marriage is a
(14:52):
very normal common concept.
So part of the work that I dowith couples that come into my
practice, I do see thedifficulties and challenges of
two people who barely know eachother connecting.
And in an arranged marriage,especially in the South Asian
(15:12):
cultures, it's not two peoplegetting married, it's entire
families, not just the corefamilies, it's the extended
families commingling and gettingmarried, so to speak.
And that creates a lot ofdifficulties and strifes for the
couplehood because the pressureis ultimately on the couple.
(15:34):
The families may be about18,000 miles away, they may be
on the other side of thecontinent, but the pressure and
the expectations that they exerton the couplehood, on the
relationship, is enormous and wesee a lot of the families being
burdened, overwhelmed by thepressures.
For example, we recently did aworkshop on unpacking the in-law
(15:58):
baggage and people weresurprised and we did it for our
clinicians and clinicians fromliterally we had 500 clinicians
on one of the workshops fromaround the country and beyond
and they were saying we neverrealized that the in-law aspect
is so important.
We hear it, but unless we areeducated, we are asking the
(16:20):
clients to tell us more about it.
We have no idea that this issuch an important part of their
lives and impacting therelationship.
So I can talk on forever, butI'll give you a chance.
Speaker 6 (16:32):
No, that's great.
I mean, yeah, I think that thatwas part of like, as you were
even telling your story, which Ifind truly fascinating, because
I think that, from a Westernmindset, or at least I'll say
American mindset, that I have,you kind of uh, you, you can go
about, like, if your goal ismarriage which I think you know,
many people's goal is marriageIf your goal is to end up having
(16:56):
a family, you know, marryingsomebody, and you know, and all
of that, a lot of times you like, whether, whether you realize
it or not, or whether you do itconsciously or not, you kind of
go, you approach therelationship, uh, by like here's
a, here's a checklist of thingsthat I, that I, you know, that
I really want in a spouse, youknow, or you approach it from
(17:18):
you know this person.
We don't get along, we getalong.
You know that sort of of thing,and oftentimes you kind of are
when you enter into thatmarriage relationship.
Eventually, um, I can see thatyou uh have, I mean, you kind of
are putting your eggs all inthe basket.
Did I choose?
Well, you know, did I make agood, uh, a good choice in like
(17:42):
this person because they, youknow, they did this, they can do
this, they can do this, and itchecks all these boxes.
But then, all of a sudden, youstart experiencing problems and
challenges and it's like, oh man, did I, did I mess up, did I
choose the wrong person?
In your case and in like whatyou're talking about, with, like
the culture that you guys comefrom, it's like it's.
You can't look back on it andsay, you know, did I choose?
Well, you almost have to lookback.
(18:03):
And you, you have to come froma it's like it's.
You can't look back on it andsay, you know, did I choose?
Well, you almost have to lookback.
And you, you, you have to comefrom a different perspective.
I think I mean, what are someof the things that, like, what
are some of the approaches thatyou take when it comes to
counseling?
Well, actually, before we askthat, you can think you can
answer that later, but I'minterested for both of you.
I mean, you've been married for30, 40, how long?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
34 years so yeah, yes so yes and no, okay, okay, yes
and no.
Speaker 6 (18:34):
I guess what I'm asking is like tell me a little
bit about your story, and likewhat are some of the things that
you found that you had to workthrough that maybe were
challenges, and so I think forfor men in the south asian
culture.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
It's.
It's really challenging because, um, we have an expectation
that you know.
It's a, it's a patriarchalsociety.
Right, men rule the kingdom,the castle.
Right, you will get everythingand everybody within your
kingdom to follow your lead andum, if you have a wife, that is
(19:11):
kind of stepping out of that.
You know normative what theyexpect yeah then hey, you gotta
tow her in.
You know what do you?
Speaker 5 (19:19):
you know what kind of man are you right um, so it's a
huge pressure.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
And even when you think you want to be supportive
of your wife, that she's in theright, this is the way you've
agreed to raise your children,this is how the world is around
you.
You think that's the best thingthat you and her are doing.
You've got to stave off thatpressure from the parents.
(19:45):
And, um, so men either fold andyou know, oh, my mom says you
need to do this, or they uh say,listen to the mom and say yeah,
sure, sure, sure, but then thenblow it off, or they build
distance.
It's like yeah, you can comevisit for a week and then we'll
(20:10):
manage the theatrics and thenyou'll be gone.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
We'll do our own thing.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
It's a challenge.
Speaker 6 (20:15):
What are some of the challenges you have?
Tell me a little bit about yourexperience with that.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So some of the challenges I think we had
initially is we didn't know eachother.
So there were, we knew a littlebit any, but we were also
complete strangers with twodifferent cultures.
So he's far more acculturatedthan I was back then and so I
had to, and I was also going inmy journey trying to figure out
(20:40):
what I wanted to do since afterI came from.
So in that journey I think thein-laws were not an issue in the
beginning for us because hismother is no more and his father
was back then in India, so thein-laws were not an issue.
It was as an arranged marriage,as a couple.
(21:02):
You know, it's like you said,the American system is so
different, yeah, and we haveadult children, so we see their
journeys, which is verydifferent, uh, from ours.
So, like you know, like chad,they date and they had
relationships, long term, shortterm.
So they have gone through this,uh, this process and they still
are going.
So for us, it was learning toknow each other was a big
(21:25):
challenge, you know, andlearning is not just as
individuals, learning about thecultures we were.
Now he is multicultural.
What he's been tell you.
He's also raised in kenya oh sohe is multicultural.
he's been exposed to so manydifferent cultures.
I was exposed to ind Indianculture and the Western culture.
Love the Western cultures, yeah, so I assimilated.
(21:47):
It was not an issue.
But the mindsets were stillimpacted by our cultures, so how
we thought and had expectationsof each other, like in gender
roles, for example.
Yeah, you know how thingsshould be Patriarchy versus
wanting independence versusequality.
So, those were the strugglesthat we actually faced and not
(22:11):
necessarily like it was an easyprocess.
And that's something I do see,Even if both the couples in my
practice they are born andraised in India.
He was raised, Chet was raisedhere and in Kenya.
But the couples who are bornand raised in India, but they're
coming here post-marriage oftenthe woman is coming here from
(22:31):
post-marriage One of the thingswhich I know I've been through
was isolation Not talked aboutIsolation and then, consequently
, depression until they areassimilated into the workforce
or they go back to college.
So and I'm saying this becauseI lived that, I lived that
experience this was foreign tohim.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
And this was really because he didn't experience
that.
He came here as a child.
He had assimilated, he hadcreated his identity, his
support system.
I'm coming here with no one,not knowing anyone.
Speaker 6 (23:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So I'm saying that was one of the frictions, I
think, between us, Because hewould be at work and I was
calling him.
Are you coming home, oh boy?
Speaker 6 (23:14):
You're my person that I need.
Yes, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I think so.
When I work with clients fromdifferent communities, different
countries, that's one of thethings I do intensively look at.
It's what was your migrationstory?
Where were you came from?
Sometimes, even within thecountry the United States is a
large country Moving and leavingback extended family.
(23:39):
Unless you're coming with afamily of your creation, it's
very lonely.
Speaker 6 (23:46):
We'll be right back.
You can hear the rest of thisconversation in just a moment.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
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(24:14):
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Speaker 6 (24:24):
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(24:47):
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Speaker 4 (25:18):
The Ohlone College Flea Market is happening every
second Saturday of the monthfrom 9 am to 3 pm on Ohlone's
Fremont campus.
Fremont Bank has been aroundfor 60 years and they sponsor a
lot of stuff, and now includedon the list of things they
sponsor is this podcast.
Thank you, Fremont Bank.
Speaker 6 (25:41):
Do you find yourself?
You know, because youspecifically deal with this
general culture people group,it's kind of a, I would say, a
niche community, but there's alot of people here from South
Asia.
Do you find yourself like tryingto reinforce the culture in
(26:02):
some ways, or do you find thatperhaps there it's, perhaps some
of the work that you have to dowith your clients is is kind of
undoing some of the culture inorder to in order to deal with
certain things?
In other words, when I thinkabout, like an arranged marriage
, I think there's some thingsabout that that could be really
(26:23):
just like relieve a lot ofweight off of someone's
shoulders.
But then there's some thingsabout that where I'm just like
man, I feel like I would almostbe a prisoner in some ways.
You know, and so, like and so,and that could be my individual
situation.
You know, one person you know isjust, you know, like you were
(26:43):
talking about like when youfirst came to the United States.
You're like, you're my person.
When are you coming home?
You know I need you.
You weren't feeling like aprisoner.
You're feeling like I'm tied toyou and I love you, you know.
So you have that part of it, sothat can be a uh, a help to you
.
But I think for some peoplecould probably feel like you
know, what did I do?
You know you feel like a victimof other people's choices in
(27:05):
that sense.
So how much of what you do is tokind of just navigate just
personality, personal conflicts,and how much of it is to
reinforce culture or to perhapsdeconstruct culture and then try
to put something back together.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
That's an excellent question.
So in my job as a therapist, myjob is not to reinforce their
values or beliefs.
My job is to ask what are theirvalues and beliefs that are
fitting into the situation?
The current situation they'rein is naming and identifying the
(27:42):
difference in cultures.
For example, like naming thatyou're coming from a different
culture, which is South Asiancultures tend to be very
collectivist.
You're coming to which isWestern cultures are very
individualistic.
So just naming, so that peoplecan recognize that there's a
reason I'm feeling different,there's a reason for that.
(28:03):
So part of it is processesnormalizing, naming and
normalizing the experiences sothey don't feel something's
wrong with me.
As far as it comes to do youdeconstruct the culture, people,
and I think I hear that asassimilation and acculturation.
People do that.
Different people do that attheir own pace and often it is
(28:27):
dependent on their lifeexperiences and how do they
internalize and process thoselife experiences into learnings
and their traumas.
So there's a lot of differentfactors.
For example, somebody who camehere.
I was very fortunate assomebody who came here.
I got into college and I chosepsychology and I started
(28:49):
studying, found an amazingcohort of friends and 30 years
later we still are friends.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
Wow, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
That gave me the roots that helped me create a
family of my choice, a family ofcreation.
That's great, so they becamepart of my family.
Speaker 6 (29:06):
I like that, a family of choice, because I know where
you're coming from because ofthe echoes of what you said,
where an arranged marriage isnot just the bringing together
of two people, but two families.
And so in some sense, you're noteven in charge of the choice of
who you marry, but even whoyour in-laws are, who your
extended family is and, in somesense, by finding a second
(29:31):
family in your colleagues andthe people that you went through
college with and went throughall that kind of gives you the
option of here is my family,that's given to me by someone
else's choice and here's thefamily that I get to choose.
Choose that I get to be a partof that and you know, and I
think both can have their valuesto them, you know.
So that's that's, that'sinteresting.
(29:52):
How, how does I?
Don't know, I'm interested.
How does that work for a lot ofpeople?
Like, how, how?
Like I like the way that yousaid that you don't try to speak
.
I can't remember exactly thewords you used, but it was like
you don't try to reinforce theirperception of their culture,
but you try to ask them toidentify for themselves what it
(30:14):
is that.
And explore with them andexplore with them what works for
them.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
I mean what part of the cultures people do want to
keep their cultural identity,and that's important it is
because it's such a deep part ofus yeah, you know, just like
your culture yeah, you knowcoming from wisconsin is it is a
part of you and always will bepart of you same thing.
It's like acknowledging that,normalizing them, exploring with
(30:38):
them yeah what works, whatdoesn't work?
Yeah and then also recognizingand naming the push and pull
yeah the guilt, the blame.
Often people say in the couplerelationship I've had many, many
, many couples tell me I amreally missing my family, I want
to help them and I'm sendingmoney and resources, and that is
(31:00):
true and people do.
The partner is saying I don'tunderstand, especially in like
cross-cultural relationshipswhere people are from two
different cultures comingtogether and they tell me, the
partners tell me I don'tunderstand this concept of this,
this guilt that you havetowards your family, filial
loyalty what do you mean?
Filial loyalty doesn'tsomething like like the italians
(31:22):
did.
What are you talking about?
so and so, understanding thosethose concepts that it's, for
example, that is, a collective'sculture.
The culture needs the youngerpeople to support the older
people, because in thosecultures, in those countries,
there are no senior homes yeahthere's no care for social
(31:43):
security.
Who takes care of the elderly isthe children.
So, having an understanding ofwhat's happening for each
individual in the session oftheir process and helping them
name it and recognize it, sothen they can say okay, I'm not
just acting just because I feellike this.
(32:04):
I'm doing certain thingsbecause I have certain loyalties
.
I feel guilt, I feel like I'veabandoned my family.
Okay, now let me see what worksfor me, or not.
So, it helps the partners alsoto recognize, helps the partners
recognize what's happening withtheir partner, recognize what's
happening with their partner.
Speaker 6 (32:24):
I'm thinking you know .
So, as you were talking andwe've been talking the last few
minutes, I've been thinkingabout this.
I think that I'd be interestedin knowing and I'm not expecting
you to know the answer to this,but I'd be interested in
knowing what say the divorcerates are of different cultures,
(32:44):
because I feel like I feel like, um, in western culture and
American culture, like if I'mthe one doing the choosing to
find my partner, then I canunchoose.
If I decide that that's not whatI you know, but in some cases I
would feel like in a, in aculture where the choosing is
being done for you in some sense, and and especially and I'd
like to hear you talk a littlebit more about this as well Like
(33:07):
the honor shame culture.
Like I can.
I can imagine how somebody whohas a choice being made for them
to be in a range situation forthem, feeling like I can't
unchoose this because this was,it was not under my power or
control to bring this together,this was somebody else's doing,
so therefore I'm, quote, unquote, stuck, or I'm you know
(33:30):
whatever.
So so then there's like, thismindset of like there's not.
I can't take that way out.
If I feel like I'm, if I'm,trapped, um, but then even, but
even then.
But that also takes certain,you know, certain solutions off
the table and it says now, whatdo I have to work with you?
know, and, and I think withinthat, like what are some of the
(33:53):
things that you find are helpfulfor people to think through?
Because I think that even as awestern, coming from a western
mindset, you know, chose my wife, I asked her to marry me.
You know that sort of thing.
I still feel bound by the, youknow, for me, the covenant of
marriage.
You know, I still feel thatthat's an important thing.
(34:14):
And even on days when you knowshe's the last person that I
want in the room with me, youknow it's like I still realize
no, there's, there's a biggerpicture here.
So what are some?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
of the challenges, maybe, or some of the ways that
you have to help people processthrough this understanding of
working through the relationalconflicts that come up,
multifaceted questions, I mean.
Speaker 6 (34:42):
There's a lot there I can talk for hours on
understand.
You're spending your lifetrying to answer these questions
and I'm asking you to answer intwo minutes.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Probably Absolutely.
So I think let me start withwhat, in my experience you know,
just answering, like, the firstquestion about what happens in
an arranged marriage is somebodyfinds themselves stuck.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Usually say the divorce rates that you mentioned
.
I have no data so I can tellyou, but I can tell you based on
experience divorce rates havegone up in the.
South Asian community and Ithink and this is not just my
experience I also run anetworking group of clinicians
and I hear that from most of usand most of us get the number
(35:28):
one call we get is myrelationship is in trouble.
Second one is like my child isin trouble and so.
But number one call for mostclinicians in the area and South
Asian clinicians from nowaround the country, we can say,
because we've been in contactwith clinicians actually across
the globe who work with SouthAsian community in different
(35:49):
countries as well and they saythe same thing that number one
call for counseling is myrelationship is in trouble.
Now, people don't always comein together, people often come
in individually as well andthere are times where, say, the
relationship is toxic to thepoint where it is dangerous.
When there's domestic violence,when there's infidelity, then
(36:11):
there is addictions.
Those become very, verydifficult, especially if the
person is in physical danger.
The children are in physicaldanger.
That becomes one of the numberone non-negotiables.
Physical danger that becomesone of the number one
non-negotiables.
The different.
The other things you know thatcan be worked on is often,
unless the distance between thecouple is so great that they
(36:35):
have given up on the marriage,on the relationship.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
They've already shut down.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
They've already shut down and they don't want to
re-engage.
There are some times we getthat.
Most of the time we are able toget them to a place to
re-engage, asking them, forexample, as you said, how do you
navigate those differences?
What are they missing in therelationship?
Especially if the partner isopen to coming in, then we can
(37:01):
have a conversation.
Most of the time when partnerscome in because they want to
listen, they want to know, likeyou said, you know there are
times with your wife.
It's like she's the last personI want to see right now but you
remember, she's also the personyou would go to.
Speaker 6 (37:16):
That's right.
That's right yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
When things go down.
Speaker 6 (37:19):
So, baby, if you're listening, I want you to hear
that part of it as well.
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
So often that's what is happening In an arranged
marriage.
The love may not be in thebeginning, but the love usually
grows A lot of time.
The love does grow, so theaffection, the connection does
grow amongst people.
It doesn't always last, butthere's no guarantees of
anything.
So in relationships wherecouples are willing to come in
(37:45):
or one is saying something iswrong, maybe I can make some
changes.
People come in and then we workon what is missing in their
relationship, what they can do.
Often our focus is ondeveloping and supporting the
person.
Become the person they want tobe.
Often that helps in anyrelationship.
That's great.
Speaker 6 (38:06):
Chet, I'm curious for you.
I can't remember which one ofyou mentioned, but the idea of
gender roles, the patriarchy, asbeing a big part of all of our
cultures but just in differentways, I think, we process it, we
see things differently.
Like as you think about, areyou also doing like therapy as
(38:31):
well?
Speaker 1 (38:31):
So I'm a life coach, so I help people in doing.
You know transitions fromcareers or changes in their
lives.
You know transitions fromcareers or changes in their
lives.
Speaker 6 (38:40):
So I'm just, I'm curious for you on the on the
whole gender role slash,patriarchy, influence and so on,
like how much of that, how muchof that do you feel is a
(39:08):
challenge, maybe for youpersonally, or that you can see
that transfers to a lot of otherpeople?
Because I would imagine in somecases, if, if I'm grow up, if I
grew up in a society where youknow I'm a man, my choices
matter the most, I'm the one whoyep, you know when I say it, it
happens.
And then being told, maybe incounseling or in some sort of a
therapy session, you've both gotto work on this.
You both have got and I'm notsaying this is the way you come
across it, but I can imagine youdon't approach it from this is
(39:29):
only a one-sided problem.
And then you've got to get inline with the man.
So for you, as you process itfrom a Southeastern, not South
Eastern- South.
Asian perspective.
Like, what does that feel?
Like?
What are some of the thingsthat?
What is that saying to you?
Like, how do you process that?
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah.
So I bring like two lenses tothat.
One is as a South Asian man,right, the other is as a student
of economics.
Know that's my background andso over time, that that
patriarchal setup worked wellbefore the world war ii, before
the 50s.
White picket fence mom stayshome, raises the kids, keeps the
(40:14):
kitchen clean, man man right,drives home, has everything,
supper is ready.
But after that we had a periodwhere women were forced to go to
work to help the war effort andthen when they were in the
workforce, they couldn't just beremoved, they stayed in the
(40:35):
workforce.
So now you had two income, twoworking, working folks, and
things had to change I mean,just all of a sudden you have a
partner running the householdand, and so that just has
evolved.
And it's true in south asianhomes, especially in
metropolitan cities and like inmumbai and delhi and so forth, a
(40:59):
lot of two-income families it'snot just mom that has to put
the kids to bed or read to themor help them with bathing or
homework.
So economics force that changeand you have to recognize that
that what you yearn for withyour grandfathers,
(41:20):
great-grandfather's era, is notrealistic anymore.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
So women gain autonomy, women gain a voice in
how things start to be done, andthey often bring in part of the
paycheck that runs thehousehold.
That's right so you have toflex, so you have to flex.
Speaker 6 (41:41):
Yeah, you have to flex.
Yeah, it is interesting becausefor so long, like I was just I
was recently I was going backand watching some old TV shows
and some old movies from youknow, ones that I would have
either been made.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
My favorite is Leave it To Be Right yeah and yeah,
exactly.
Speaker 6 (41:59):
So you look at that and you're like, in that day and
age, at that time period, allof that made sense.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah, father knows best.
Speaker 6 (42:06):
Everyone could relate to that, because that's what
houses and families look like,you know, across the country.
Yeah, you know you didn't havepeople revolting.
You didn't have people, youknow, like canceling it Yep, you
didn't have people.
You know, like canceling it Yep, this was it, you know, and so.
But now you play some of thoseepisodes to people today you can
(42:36):
, it's a.
You probably have a hard timeeven finding those episodes,
those shows, because it doesn'tlike that's what I was going to
say.
I mentioned talking about likehow you do you help them
deconstruct the culture.
I was even just thinking, as Iwas mentioning, that I was like
I feel like our society is inthe middle of deconstructing our
Western culture.
Things that were okay 20 yearsago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago,
are not okay today, and I thinkthat there is is I think there
(43:00):
could be a pendulum swing oneway or the other.
I think there's always apendulum swing.
You could say, well, this isnot okay, so let's go all the
way over here, and it's likethen you find that there's a lot
of problems there with with iton the other side.
Um, so I guess I guess my yeah.
So so I guess what I'm sayingis is like there it's, we're in
a, it's becoming more and morefluid, more and more flexible
(43:25):
situation within our society andculture today.
So I guess my question is forboth of you, as you guys
interact with people from SouthAsian communities that are here
now, what are some of the thingsthat you find and now you've
already mentioned some of youalready mentioned some of them,
but more specifically, like,what are some of the things that
(43:47):
you find that are consistentlyproblematic?
That can be things that you youknow that maybe you know that
you're constantly having theseconversations like what are some
of those conversations and whatare some of the things that you
find are helpful solutions forfixing those?
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Okay, great question again.
So I'm thinking about, apartfrom in-laws being one of the
major issues for most families,what we hear is gender roles.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
As I think Chet mentioned that.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
And the other is parenting, work, work stress.
Parenting is an issue, soespecially understanding the two
different generations, thegenerational gap between the
immigrants who come here, whowere born and raised in a
different country and are cominghere at a later age, like me
and in our 20s, to go foreducation or marriage and
(44:40):
whatever reasons, so versus thegeneration that they're raising,
so that is a big source ofconflict within families.
So those are some of the thingsthat we come in, so in-laws is
usually number one gender roles,work stress and then parenting
differences.
Speaker 6 (44:57):
What are some of the things that you help parents?
I mean, I'm trying to think howI would approach trying to talk
to somebody differences.
What are some of the thingsthat you help parents?
I'm trying to think how I wouldapproach trying to talk to
somebody about that andencourage them.
What are some of the thingsthat you find to be helpful to
help parents navigate that?
Speaker 2 (45:11):
It's helping them understand that there are two
different cultures at clash, twodifferent generations clash and
are is understanding what thekids are going through.
For example, I have this classthat I I actually workshop.
That I do often in the library,here and other places.
(45:33):
It's called communicating withyour teens.
Rather, we call it how to getyour teens to listen to you.
Now, in my culture, if when Istarted doing this workshop,
when I started promoting thisworkshop in the South Asian
community, I made the mistakeonce, or actually started with
how to have effectiveconversations with your teens, I
(45:57):
don't think I got too manypeople.
Maybe, maybe about 20 peopleshowed up.
As soon as I changed it to howto get your teens to listen to
you, I had 80 people standingroom only.
So, I was like, and this wasthis tiny room in the library
and that workshop still packs,though I think the core of the
workshop is how to communicate,in other words, with your teens,
(46:20):
if you want to, is how tocommunicate, in other words with
your teens if you want to, ishow to listen to them, because I
work with kids and teens andthat's one of the things they
talk about.
Our parents don't listen to usbecause they have their
expectations.
Being the first generationimmigrants here, our objective
is study, earn, start a family,buy a house, put the kids in a
(46:43):
private school or in a niceschool, definitely in a nice
college, a whole bunch ofdifferent activities so they can
get into all the wonderfulcolleges in the in the us and
make something of themselvesbetter than us yeah the kids are
saying thank you much.
We don't have that mindsetbecause, guess what, You're
already providing for us.
So we are not as hungry.
(47:03):
So we want to do art, we wantto do music, we want to travel
the world, we want to have a job, quit and do something else.
And the parents are like, oh myGod, what's wrong with my child
?
Nothing is wrong with yourchild.
You have given them a greatcushion, an upbringing.
It's not that they won't findtheir ways.
(47:24):
They will find a different pathfrom yours.
So that is one of the bigissues that come up with my
families when it comes toparenting is understanding your
child because of the generation,the culture, the space they are
in.
They're not in India, whereyou're fighting for scraps.
You're not fighting.
You're not seeing people eatfrom the garbage, which is what
(47:46):
we grew up with seeing.
So you understand the value offood, you're going to clean your
plate, but when there's foodthat's abundant, you're not
going to clean your platebecause you haven't experienced
that.
So one of the things that wework on is working with the
parents understand and trying tosee things from their lenses,
understanding the differentcultures and value systems that
(48:09):
are at clash To be good parentsI'm not saying being the best
parent or perfect parent,because there's no such things,
but being good parents islearning to listen that's really
good.
Speaker 6 (48:22):
yeah, that's really good, I think, and I think that
when you almost going back tolike the leave it the beaver,
you know this is, this is a asnapshot of what the majority
culture was like in the us, youknow, back in the whenever that
was 60s, 70s, I can't rememberbut, um, but you go back to that
.
I think that in some ways, someways, because we're in a time
(48:44):
frame when there's cultureschanging and shifting and being
influenced by, we didn't havethe access to seeing things
across the world like we do now.
We didn't know those thingsexisted and now we have the
ability to see everything that'sgoing on and it influences
everything that we think andbelieve and we do, whereas, you
(49:05):
know you might, 50 years ago inIndia, it might have been very
clear what your future was goingto be.
What you were going to do.
There was no question.
Like the amount of you know,flexibility with your future
might have been a.
So you know, some total of 15percent.
(49:27):
Fifteen percent of your life isnot quite determined, but the
other 85 percent.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
all change after CNN and MTV Right.
You know, started blasting fromsatellites, and that's exactly
right.
Speaker 6 (49:36):
Yeah, I mean even to that.
You remember, I remember goingto Albania.
I went to Albania about 20.
I guess it was about 25 yearsago, 20, 25 years ago, and it
was.
They had just, you know,communism had just fallen.
It's very closed, very, verydifferent, but they were
listening and watching.
They were watching televisionand movies from America that
(49:58):
were made, you know, 20, 30years earlier and everybody was
dressing like them.
So you would go there and theywould expect you're an American
coming and I'm coming in my youknow whatever, my car hearts and
my you know whatever it is, andthey're dressed like somebody
out of the 70s and I'm like whatin the world?
And it's like because that'sthe you.
So so it's not.
You know, you start seeing thatin different places as soon as
(50:21):
cnn, mtv, all those places, alllike it starts starts opening up
a whole world, right?
Speaker 1 (50:27):
the gap between when the information would transfer
for it took like 10, 15 yearsfor those movies to make it over
was like 15 days, right.
Michael jackson was a hit,right, that's right.
Speaker 6 (50:38):
Yeah, I, I think that's, I think that's right.
Yeah, I think that's, I thinkthat's really fascinating and I
do think that it is something uh, I think that the recovery time
of the things I say it that way, I'm making that terminology up
on the spot here but thatrecovery time of that, you know,
over adjustment, or thatadjustment to one thing or
(50:59):
another, because you know, eveneven for me, even for me, I
didn't come from a differentcountry, but I was born in
Wisconsin, grew up in a farmingcommunity, I spent a lot of my
time influenced by a farminglife.
My family was not well off, welived in very poor conditions
most of my life growing up, andI was the oldest of six kids and
(51:25):
I had a lot of responsibilitiesthat you know were on my
shoulders, that a lot of peopledon't have, and I'll say this
more specifically because thisis where I'm getting at by
saying that I had a lot ofresponsibilities and a certain
kind of situation that my sondoes not have.
We now live in California.
We now live in a much nicerhouse than I've ever lived.
(51:48):
This is the nicest house I'veprobably ever lived in in my
life, and we have a lot ofthings at our fingertips that I
never would have even imaginedhaving To the point.
You were saying when I grew up,we cleaned our plate because you
didn't know if we were going tohave food for the next meal.
And now my son's like I'm nothungry and I'm like if you only
knew what my mom would have saidto you, if you only knew what
(52:10):
my dad would have said to you,if you would have said that you
know.
But then it's like do I look at?
And then I have to look at thatand say is what my mom said to
me or my dad said to me, was itthe right thing?
I think maybe in the moment itwas the right thing, maybe it
was right.
But should I be putting thatexpectation on my son, who's
basically saying you know, Idon't want to be overfed, I
(52:32):
don't want to be over, you know.
And so then it's just like forme as a parent, I'm trying to
like figure that out and say howdo I work around?
How do I deal with this?
What is the right answer?
So maybe I need to come to yourworkshops and figure out.
He's not a teenager yet, but Icould use some help figuring out
how to talk to him and how tolisten to him Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
And you're talking about culture and generational
clash, Cultural clash.
The culture was so differentwhen you grew up I mean the
space that we grew up on a farmwhere food was scarce and it was
difficult.
There were hardships.
He's not going to know that.
Because, you gave him a reallygood, smooth, comfortable life
(53:13):
and if you expect him to relateand react the same way as you
did, he's not going to.
Because it's so different forhim.
Same note this is what I tellthe parents.
I think that's an excellentexample and thank you for
sharing that.
You know being so candid aboutthis, because this is what
parents like don't understandoften.
Why is my child so different?
(53:34):
Your child?
What your child is goingthrough is very normal, given
their circumstances, given theenvironment they're in.
You know MTV and YouTube andReels and don't forget like.
Snapchat and.
Tiktok.
And what's the other one Insta?
Speaker 1 (53:52):
How can you forget Insta?
My kids are starting to lead anInsta life.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
It's not on.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
Insta.
It's not real.
It's right.
It's a very different world andjust generations here.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
You know, like you said things at your fingertip
yeah you didn't have that yeah,access to internet.
That's right, it's like you canhave computers which are phones
, which are smarter thancomputers.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Yeah, oh, yeah so one thing I wanted to mention is
that, um, I'm in a uniqueposition, so I consider myself
not second generation and notfirst generation generation 1.5
because I came here early enoughright that most of my formation
has been in the us okay but Ihave very vivid memories of the
(54:36):
young me living in India in thatlifestyle, with those
requirements or, you know,expectations of me.
So when I hear the first-genparents preaching to their kids,
I get it.
You know, I lived it right, butI also grew up here.
(54:58):
I went to junior high, highschool, college, grad school, so
I know that life as well andit's like what are your parents
saying that's effed up dude,yeah, absolutely.
But I can also tell them heylook, this is where they're
coming from.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
This is what they live through.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
This is the only path forward.
They knew and what they'redoing is out of you know, the
love for you, their way to treatyou in the best way possible
that they know.
Speaker 6 (55:33):
Yeah, I'm interested.
I'm interested because beforewe started recording, you
started talking about crosscultures and being able to like
analyze that and interpret thosethings.
I am curious because I do knowa bit about cross cultures and
so at least I've I've talkedwith people who know things and
I've studied a little bit ofmyself.
But I'm so the Western culture,american American mindset's
(55:55):
more of a guilt innocenceculture.
You know, am I right or wrong?
You're wrong, I'm right, thatsort of thing.
And so we approach things from.
You know, am I right or wrong?
You're wrong, I'm right, thatsort of thing.
And so we approach things from.
You know, if you're late, if yousaid you were going to be here
at three o'clock and you showedup at 305, you're late, well,
that's not necessarily the waythat, like a culture that comes
from like more of a shame honorsystem would approach it.
You know there's not necessarilya right or wrong, it's not
(56:15):
necessarily.
You know there's not a hardline on that.
Um, but I guess my question isthis and we I'm sure there's a
lot could be said about, likethe, the pros and cons of, like
a guilt innocence culture versusa honor shame culture, um, but
I'm just wondering, like withthat 1.5 or with the you know
(56:41):
first generation, you know thatgrew up in india, or from any
country for that matter, andthen the second generation
growing up in the united states,you know, you have the
influences of like those sortsof things, the right, wrong
versus honor, shame, or evenlike the second generation.
Um, I don't know, I'm just I'mcurious how that impact and the
(57:04):
influences that they, that inthe way that they, that people
see whether it's right, wrongversus honor, shame maybe in um.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
In the older generation the reputation
reputation of the family, youknow mattered a lot and
influenced um how they behaved,what they expected of their
parents, what they hid abouttheir parents and what they
promoted about their children.
Right and um, the youngergeneration is like what do I
(57:35):
care what my aunt or you know,that some neighbor or some buddy
in the temple or church thinksabout me?
I gotta live my own life.
My, my, uh.
You know homies are good withwhat I'm doing.
I'm getting all the likes Iwant on.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
That's right insta and facebook loves me, so I'm
killing it, yeah, so that's thedichotomy.
Yeah, yeah, well so that comesfrom, I think, what I mentioned
earlier about theindividualistic versus the
collectivist cultures.
In a collectivist culture,shame and honor are important
because, like Chet said, it'snot about the individual, it's
(58:12):
about the entire family oh,that's interesting.
Yeah, yes, versus the right orwrong being here on time.
You know it's veryindividualistic yeah your basic
needs are met individually youare able to meet your basic
needs individually in westernsocieties because the resources
are plenty.
That is not true in many southasian countries and other
(58:36):
countries as well yeah, and.
And so where there is acollective, there is a need for
the collective to ensure thesurvival of the most.
So the shame and honor comes in, because shame is a great
motivator, guilt and shame, asI've had many people tell me.
Oh, my parents ruled me byguilt and shame and I was like,
(58:57):
dude, I totally get that.
Guess what, been there, donethat.
And our sons are great.
My older son is amazing withhis boundaries and he's like mom
, you're guilting me.
Oh, yes, sorry, but no tomyself not do that again that's
funny but the cultural learningsare so deep.
you know that even as atherapist i've've had to be,
(59:19):
I've had him, he's had tocorrect me and point it out, and
that's like whoa, I got to bemore mindful of what I'm doing.
So that is, I'm sorry.
Speaker 6 (59:28):
No, no, I was just going to.
I was going to say kind of inresponse to that, though I mean
I can imagine that there arepros again, pros and cons to
both mindsets.
So it could be that, like Iwould say that even just
recently I was talking to agroup of people that I'm helping
to lead and there's a mixtureof people who are you know, who
are clearly, you know, CaucasianAmericans, and then there's a
(59:50):
bunch that are from all over theworld, including a lot of
countries that would beconsidered more of an honor
shame society, and I was talkingto them about the and I brought
this up about you know what itmeans to be late or on time or
whatever, because I, I don't, Idon't, I'm not on time the way
that I ought to be, sometimes um, but um, but I can, I I've been
(01:00:12):
around a society most of mylife where it's like when you're
late, you need to, you need.
You know, you're the one that'sin the wrong, you're the one
that needs to fix it, you know.
But then we were one that's inthe wrong, you're the one that
needs to fix it, you know.
But then we were talking aboutthere are some people who are
like they were talking about.
What does it mean to start ontime?
And for a certain culture, likethe guilt, innocence culture,
it was like the way that youshow honor and respect, the way
(01:00:33):
that you show like you knowpeople that you care, is that
you start on time, right.
But then there's other peoplethat you don't start until
certain people, the most honoredpeople, are there.
You can't start until everyoneshows up, and especially the
people that matter the most youknow grandpa or grandmother, or
(01:00:53):
mom and dad or whatever.
And I was telling them.
I think that you know I said tothis group that I'm helping to
lead.
I said neither one of them areright, neither one of them are
correct.
I mean I'm using theright-wrong paradigm there.
But I said what we need to dois we need to show consideration
toward one another and evenlove toward each other, and say,
(01:01:13):
yeah, I want to be considerateof the people that are more
honor-shame focused and say,yeah, I want to be considered to
the people that are more honorshame focused.
And so we need to recognizethat we don't want to start till
you get here, because we docare about you, but at the same
time, there's people who've beenhere for 20 minutes before the
time because they were expectingus to start on time.
And if we start 20 minutes latebecause there's a bunch of
(01:01:35):
people not showing up on time,then we need to respect them as
well and we need to say, okay, Ineed to work hard to try to be
here closer to the start timethat was predetermined so that
I'm not so anyway.
I don't know.
I think it's just like anongoing working conversation
that needs to happen and I cansee how that affects the group
that I'm leading and we're notnecessarily related, but I can
(01:01:56):
see how that can be achallenging dynamic to deal with
within a family parents to kidsor whatever.
Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Oh, I think you're a very good example, especially
around timing.
I think that you're bringing upin a lot of collectivist
culture.
You're absolutely right.
Everybody waits for the peoplewho are important, the elders
usually.
It's usually the elders Also.
I was going to say there's alsoa logistical challenge
(01:02:29):
Transportation.
Speaker 6 (01:02:30):
Right, that's right yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
How are you going to get there on time?
Transportation is an issue.
Speaker 6 (01:02:35):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Times become stretchable, and also the
boundaries.
You know that you're talkingabout boundaries.
Okay, you come at 10 and thenyou've got to be done by 12.
Those don't exist in thosecultures.
Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Here we're kind of trained.
You know, our school system isit's a nine o'clock class.
You have like 9.05 and you'retardy.
You do that too many times.
That means you got to runfaster.
Speaker 6 (01:03:02):
That's right Get your act together.
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
You're clearly not showing respect to your teacher
Speaking of shame and guilt.
Speaker 6 (01:03:12):
I'm going to be guilty of being late for my wife
here in a few minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
This is not rushing us off.
Speaker 6 (01:03:18):
But we've been having it's funny, I'm looking at the
time been having.
I it's it's funny Like I'mlooking at the time marker on on
our interview and it's like wejust hit an hour and I was like
how did that happen?
Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
You guys.
This has been an awesomeconversation.
Yeah, I've enjoyed it very much, yeah.
Speaker 6 (01:03:33):
Clean way to kind of wrap it down.
I was going to say if we reallywanted to, and I think that'd
be super fun, but if peoplewanted to know more about what
you're doing and if they areinterested in hearing more of
you because I find what you'resaying to be extremely
fascinating, and just the factthat this is something that you
regularly practice as you helppeople walk through this
yourself, what are some waysthat people can find out more
(01:03:54):
about you and find out whatyou're doing?
Maybe hear more of what you'redoing the workshops.
How can we find out all aboutall that?
Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
So absolutely Best way to contact me is through my
website, which is shalinimftcom.
I have my phone number and it's510-612-6471.
That's a direct one.
I also have a nonprofit,basanth and now and which Chet
and I we run together and weco-founded and we run, so we
(01:04:23):
provide that and the workshopsare through there to the
communities.
Speaker 6 (01:04:27):
How would you define the non-profit again?
Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
So, it's called basantnoworg, so B-A-S-A-N-T now
.
N-o-w dot org and a lot of theworkshops we've done have been
at the Fremont Main Library,okay, and they're free and open
to anyone and everyone.
Speaker 6 (01:04:45):
And they're focused on the things that we've been
talking about.
We did a whole series onparenting.
Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Okay, We've done others on relationships and so,
yeah, it's great Stress.
Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
I mean anxiety, depression, mental health,
because the objective is todemystify and also take away the
shame around mental health.
So yes, I mean people can findus.
Uh, I think if you google myname, my phone number will show
up awesome and best way tocontact me and I think then if
there's a question for chet, Ican always let him know that's
(01:05:16):
great so, but he has his ownsite as well okay, so, and you,
you said you did coaching, right, yeah, life coaching yeah, so
I'm chetdalecoachingcom is mywebsite so
Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
and yeah I'm not a licensed psychologist, but more
of a life coach for people umwho are transitioning from a
career to another career oranother stage in life, or just
trying to improve theirwell-being.
Speaker 6 (01:05:43):
That's great, that's awesome.
Well, I've really enjoyedgetting to talk to you guys,
it's good to meet you guys andI'm glad, I'm thankful for what
you're doing in our Fremontcommunity.
I think these are the kinds ofthings that we number one, the
community needs to know about,and number two, I think that we
benefit from it.
Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
We don't even realize it sometimes, so really, uh,
really grateful for what you'redoing and glad that you got to
be on the podcast here.
Oh, thank you for having us.
Yes, thank you, and we'll makesure that we put all the
information that you gave us inthe show notes, so people will
be able to find that.
Speaker 6 (01:06:14):
Absolutely thank you try to find it themselves.
Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
So thank you guys.
Speaker 6 (01:06:17):
Oh, thank you yes oh, one more thing I should say.
You said you had a podcast too,right?
Yes, so the podcast?
Is that connected with yournon-profit, or where does the
podcast?
Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
yeah, it is so there's a whole library of
podcasts we've done in the paston different topics, okay,
related to mental health, andthey're all accessible from the
basant now, okay, and my site aswell, I think on my site as
well and we have a YouTubechannel that and yes so yeah, so
most of the topics, andactually all the topics, are
(01:06:48):
about mental health, somedifferent aspects, because we
have I interview a whole bunchof clinicians, different kinds
you know, so anybody who isinterested, who is a clinician
and wants to come and talk on mypodcast.
Speaker 6 (01:07:00):
I'll interview them just like you do.
We'll put a link on the podcasthere as well.
Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
This episode was hosted and produced by Ricky B.
I'm Gary Williams, Andrew Kvetis the editor.
Scheduling and pre-interviewsby Sarah S.
Be sure to subscribe whereverit is that you listen so you
don't miss an episode.
You can find everything we make, the podcast and all of our
social media links atthefremontpodcastcom.
(01:07:28):
Join us next week on theFremont Podcast.
Speaker 5 (01:07:33):
This is a Muggins Media Podcast.
So it's a huge pressure, and even when you
think you want to be supportiveof your wife, that she's in the
right, this is the way you'veagreed to raise your children,
this is how the world is aroundyou.
You think that's the best thingthat you and her are doing.
You've got to stave off thatpressure from the parents, and
(00:27):
so men either fold and you knowoh, my mom says you need to do
this or they listen to the momand say yeah, sure, sure, sure,
but then blow it off, or theybuild distance.
It's like yeah, you can comevisit for a week and then we'll
(00:48):
you know, we'll manage thetheatrics and then you'll be
gone and we'll do our own thingbut the couples who are raised,
born and raised in india, butthey're coming here
post-marriage, or often thewoman is coming here from
post-marriage.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
One of the things which I know I went through was
isolation Not talked aboutIsolation and then, consequently
, depression, until they areassimilated into the workforce
or they go back to college.
And I'm saying this because Ilived that.
I lived that experience.
This was foreign to him.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Coming to you straight from Fremont,
California.
This is the Fremont Podcast,dedicated to telling the stories
of the past and present of thepeople and places of the city of
Fremont, one conversation at atime.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
The staff at Ohlone College on the Fremont campus or
at least some of the staff atOhlone College on the Fremont
campus are fond of keeping trackof the birds that live on
campus.
I'm here in the upper-levelroundabout and I'm looking at at
(02:08):
least two woodpeckers are thereusually more than two.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
There can be as many as probably 10 to 12.
There's one, two, three,there's six palm trees here and,
as you can see, they are veryheavily yeah, pecked with holes.
Yeah, especially toward the topyeah so, and what I actually
love is that there's new growthat the top of the palm trees,
and that is from the woodpeckersstoring acorns and other seeds.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
It's actually not palm tree growth oh, like there
are oak, there are oak.
Yeah, you're right, there areoak trees growing on the top of
the palm trees.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
There are at least maybe two sets of ravens who
have a presence on campus.
There's another pair thatnested on the top of the bell
tower over by the Smith Center,and then this nest we just
noticed this year.
And who's the we Like how manypeople on campus that you know
(03:16):
of like enjoy keeping track ofthe birds?
Well, I think a lot of us do.
I think that's one of thebeautiful things about working
so close to nature is that youdo have access to wildlife, and
I would say the majority of thatwildlife are birds and insects.
A fair amount of people havenoticed this nest.
It's in a walkway space whereyou know a number of people
(03:41):
probably pass through.
We have a number of swallows onthe campus.
They always return every spring, so everybody who's worked here
for any length of time knowsthe swallows, and last year and
the year before a whole bunch ofus, including even our
photography department, gotreally into following a blue
(04:01):
heron nest.
We've had two sets of nests upin a blue pine tree on campus.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
The ravens are currently just sitting on a
outdoor stair banister, kind ofsurveying the land.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
I believe that's mommy or daddy, I cannot fully
tell and then one of the babies,and the baby is sitting back a
little further than mommy.
That mommy has been veryprotective the last couple of
days.
I take a little bit of solaceseeing that she's actually
perched right there, because twodays ago, in an attempt to get
(04:41):
a slightly better look at thenest, I opened the door from the
building to that stairwell.
I turned and looked to the leftand there she was, coming
straight at me.
I freaked out and I ran backinside and closed the door
quickly.
I really do believe it's that.
You know, her babies were in apretty vulnerable state.
(05:03):
They were just learning to fly.
In fact, one of them hadn'tfledged yet and she was feeding
it actually just a short whilebefore I stepped out there.
So I probably should have knownbetter.
Maybe she was just attemptingto land where she is right now,
but it certainly seemed like shewas coming right at me.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
In the small line of windows that are at the top of
the gym is a long row of windowsand in one of those is very
obviously the nest.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Right and even just a little further down the
building, under the eaves ofthat kind of those windows, you
can see a swallow nest as wellyeah, so there are so many birds
on this campus?
There really are.
There's a lot of songbird, uh,birds who love, you know,
picking at the olives down olivelane.
(05:57):
Uh, we have ravens and otherraptors.
We have hawks around andoccasionally a heron or an egret
will stop by.
So it's pretty excitingactually to think about it, to
have access to all that justduring your work day.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Oh, here comes somebody.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
I do think that's one of the babies you can kind of
tell they're not the most secureflyer.
Now I'm curious to see if babymakes his or her way back to mom
.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
I can understand the addiction I haven't even been
here that long and there's lotsof action.
You are listening to episode122 of the Fremont Podcast.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Now here's your host, Ricky B.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Shalini.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
Shalini, is that how you say?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
it Shalini.
Okay, shalini and Chet Chetyeah.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
Okay, I had a great-uncle, Chet.
So my grandfather's brother'sname was Chet, so that was.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
There we go.
Speaker 6 (07:05):
When I saw that I was like oh, I know, I know that
name um.
And you said that you've beenin fremont for 30 years 30 years
.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Okay, yes, I've been in fremont for 30 years.
Wow, what um what was uh?
Speaker 6 (07:16):
tell me about a little bit about your story of
coming to fremont, like whatbrought you here well, marriage.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
So, uh, we were in an arranged marriage and we came
here I mean he was already here.
He was raised in new arrangedmarriage and we came here.
I mean he was already here.
He was raised in New York but Icame here, and in San Francisco
, but I came here post-marriage.
Speaker 6 (07:31):
Okay, yes, wow, were you living in India then at the
time?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Absolutely.
I was born and raised in India.
Yes, wow, very good.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
And then, how long were you living in the United
States?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
So I've been living here almost 40 years.
So, I came as a child, ineighth grade, to New York city.
Then my family migrated to SanFrancisco city proper, okay, and
in 83, we moved to Newark,actually, um, and then, ever
since then, I've been in theNewark Fremont area so long time
(08:04):
in here yeah, I have friendsthat have, uh, have done the
arranged marriage thing, um, andI'm I'm curious for you.
Speaker 6 (08:15):
Like I, I have friends that recently have been
married from an arrangedmarriage and I have friends that
have been married for a longtime from that.
So what was it like?
Uh, I'm just curious like youwere you were in new york, been
there since you were a youngyoung one.
And then how did?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
how did you get matched up with, uh, with
chalene, yeah, so um, for me,you know, I I had been brought
up here, I had dated throughhigh school, college, had had
long-term girlfriends, and atthat point in time I wasn't
dating anybody.
You know, I wasn't and Ihappened to travel to india just
(08:52):
to be with family and stuff,and they always made it a point
for me to go visit a lot ofpeople that seem to have, you
know, eligible young girls.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
So there's a good friends to have.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
And it's just kind of like a nudge, nudge, nudge.
You guys should talk, kind ofthing.
And then it progressed fromthat to okay, let's go out on
another date.
And when we say date, it waslike a group date.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I heard like brother and sister and my cousins were
all along.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And then finally, when we got comfortable, it was
like they would let us kind ofgo off and walk on our own.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
We got ice cream, so it was very kind of gradual, but
the choreographed let's put itthat way, as someone though that
you know kind of like, yourformative years were in New York
City in the United States.
I mean, it seems to me thatthat was that more of.
Was the idea of arrangedmarriage more of a foreign
concept to you?
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Or was it something that you were more familiar with
?
I was totally familiar with itand that that's.
You know.
People living in India or havegone through it.
My parents have gone through it.
My uncles and aunts have gonethrough it.
My parents have gone through it.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
My uncles- and aunts have gone through it.
But here is like that's not howwe do things, right, yeah, yeah
, and so I mean even the factthat you had girlfriends or you
had, you know, it's justinteresting that you had still
had kind of like a drawback tothat, Right.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
And so it just kind of happened.
I mean, because it was the timeand place and where I was in
life that I was amenable to that, right, that's great, yeah.
And then there's you know,other people have a quite a
different story there.
You know, they go back to Indiafor two weeks with the
(10:37):
intention of finding a bride,right, and then everything's set
up, chuck, chuck, chuck, chuck,chuck.
And then by the 13th day youneed to make a decision and it's
done, right, yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
Shalini, how was that experience for you Like?
Did you guys know each otherthen before you went back to
India?
No, no, no, Not at all.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
I was in a different city where I was raised, and so
my parents I mean my- parentsand his parents lived in a
different city in.
Delhi, which most people arefamiliar with, and so my parents
asked me to come over to meethim, and so that's when I went
and met him, and at that time Ihad seen several men and but I
(11:23):
was not.
I was not interested, I was toofocused yeah on my education and
my profession and so, which wasa different one, which was a
different one back then?
Yes, absolutely.
Then, you know, and and I thinkwhen I met him and I was like,
okay, he's, he's a great guy,he's really nice, and I actually
went back, I had I, no, notinterested, thank you very much
(11:46):
Went back and then his parentscalled my parents.
My parents said come back.
I was like, oh, and then myfamily was like I was 23, and my
family was, oh, you're gettingold, now it's time to get
married.
I was like, ah, it's time toget married.
(12:09):
I was like, so, back then, theconcept of a single, like a
woman, a professional woman, wasnot necessarily the most
acceptable one, and still is,and I think this is still.
Women in india still face that.
And, um, my work with clientsand I've, over the years, over
30 years now that I have been inthis profession I've worked,
worked with clients and heardstories of arranged marriages
which are very similar, and westill had a chance of across the
(12:33):
Atlantic dating for about eight, nine months.
So we didn't get married in thattime.
So we just did an engagementceremony.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
But then from there on, like all the you know rules
were off, we could communicatewhere, when, when we wanted, yes
, yes, how much you know?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
So we actually got to know each other really well.
It was like in a long-distancerelationship right For eight,
nine months.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Except that in long-, long distance relationship, the
end of the end eight monthsyou're getting married.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
That's right and was the marriage I'm assuming took
place in India.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
It did.
Yes, yes, that's great, wow.
Speaker 6 (13:11):
So then did you guys move to New York?
Did you move to New York then?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Or was that about the time you started heading back
to Fremont?
So I've been in Fremont for thelast 33 years.
Yes, wow, that's really cool.
Speaker 6 (13:24):
So you mentioned clients and I think that that
kind of leads into part of thereason why we're here.
But you said you have talked toclients over the years that
have had various experiences, sotell me a little bit about what
you do and what it means tohave clients and what you do for
them.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Okay, that's a great question.
So I'm a marriage and familytherapist in fremont and I've
been in my goodness in thisprofession for 30 years, as I
was saying, ever since I startedmy program in psychology, and
I've been working with clientsliterally up and down the bay
area.
I've've worked with differentagencies.
I work with kids, I work withadults and I work with couples
(14:05):
and families.
So in my work here in Fremont,when I started my private
practice, after I did my stintwith a whole bunch of different
agencies, in my work here inFremont, there's a lot of
different cultures and it gaveme the privilege of working with
a lot of South Asian cultures,because there's many here and in
(14:28):
many South Asian culturesacross the board, and I'm
talking about, let's say, fromBhutan and Myanmar that's what
it's called Bangladesh, india,sri Lanka, malaysia, thailand,
pakistan, afghanistan and thenthe UAE.
So pretty much along thatcorridor, arranged marriage is a
(14:52):
very normal common concept.
So part of the work that I dowith couples that come into my
practice, I do see thedifficulties and challenges of
two people who barely know eachother connecting.
And in an arranged marriage,especially in the South Asian
(15:12):
cultures, it's not two peoplegetting married, it's entire
families, not just the corefamilies, it's the extended
families commingling and gettingmarried, so to speak.
And that creates a lot ofdifficulties and strifes for the
couplehood because the pressureis ultimately on the couple.
(15:34):
The families may be about18,000 miles away, they may be
on the other side of thecontinent, but the pressure and
the expectations that they exerton the couplehood, on the
relationship, is enormous and wesee a lot of the families being
burdened, overwhelmed by thepressures.
For example, we recently did aworkshop on unpacking the in-law
(15:58):
baggage and people weresurprised and we did it for our
clinicians and clinicians fromliterally we had 500 clinicians
on one of the workshops fromaround the country and beyond
and they were saying we neverrealized that the in-law aspect
is so important.
We hear it, but unless we areeducated, we are asking the
(16:20):
clients to tell us more about it.
We have no idea that this issuch an important part of their
lives and impacting therelationship.
So I can talk on forever, butI'll give you a chance.
Speaker 6 (16:32):
No, that's great.
I mean, yeah, I think that thatwas part of like, as you were
even telling your story, which Ifind truly fascinating, because
I think that, from a Westernmindset, or at least I'll say
American mindset, that I have,you kind of uh, you, you can go
about, like, if your goal ismarriage which I think you know,
many people's goal is marriageIf your goal is to end up having
(16:56):
a family, you know, marryingsomebody, and you know, and all
of that, a lot of times you like, whether, whether you realize
it or not, or whether you do itconsciously or not, you kind of
go, you approach therelationship, uh, by like here's
a, here's a checklist of thingsthat I, that I, you know, that
I really want in a spouse, youknow, or you approach it from
(17:18):
you know this person.
We don't get along, we getalong.
You know that sort of of thing,and oftentimes you kind of are
when you enter into thatmarriage relationship.
Eventually, um, I can see thatyou uh have, I mean, you kind of
are putting your eggs all inthe basket.
Did I choose?
Well, you know, did I make agood, uh, a good choice in like
(17:42):
this person because they, youknow, they did this, they can do
this, they can do this, and itchecks all these boxes.
But then, all of a sudden, youstart experiencing problems and
challenges and it's like, oh man, did I, did I mess up, did I
choose the wrong person?
In your case and in like whatyou're talking about, with, like
the culture that you guys comefrom, it's like it's.
You can't look back on it andsay, you know, did I choose?
Well, you almost have to lookback.
(18:03):
And you, you have to come froma it's like it's.
You can't look back on it andsay, you know, did I choose?
Well, you almost have to lookback.
And you, you, you have to comefrom a different perspective.
I think I mean, what are someof the things that, like, what
are some of the approaches thatyou take when it comes to
counseling?
Well, actually, before we askthat, you can think you can
answer that later, but I'minterested for both of you.
I mean, you've been married for30, 40, how long?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
34 years so yeah, yes so yes and no, okay, okay, yes
and no.
Speaker 6 (18:34):
I guess what I'm asking is like tell me a little
bit about your story, and likewhat are some of the things that
you found that you had to workthrough that maybe were
challenges, and so I think forfor men in the south asian
culture.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
It's.
It's really challenging because, um, we have an expectation
that you know.
It's a, it's a patriarchalsociety.
Right, men rule the kingdom,the castle.
Right, you will get everythingand everybody within your
kingdom to follow your lead andum, if you have a wife, that is
(19:11):
kind of stepping out of that.
You know normative what theyexpect yeah then hey, you gotta
tow her in.
You know what do you?
Speaker 5 (19:19):
you know what kind of man are you right um, so it's a
huge pressure.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
And even when you think you want to be supportive
of your wife, that she's in theright, this is the way you've
agreed to raise your children,this is how the world is around
you.
You think that's the best thingthat you and her are doing.
You've got to stave off thatpressure from the parents.
(19:45):
And, um, so men either fold andyou know, oh, my mom says you
need to do this, or they uh say,listen to the mom and say yeah,
sure, sure, sure, but then thenblow it off, or they build
distance.
It's like yeah, you can comevisit for a week and then we'll
(20:10):
manage the theatrics and thenyou'll be gone.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
We'll do our own thing.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
It's a challenge.
Speaker 6 (20:15):
What are some of the challenges you have?
Tell me a little bit about yourexperience with that.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So some of the challenges I think we had
initially is we didn't know eachother.
So there were, we knew a littlebit any, but we were also
complete strangers with twodifferent cultures.
So he's far more acculturatedthan I was back then and so I
had to, and I was also going inmy journey trying to figure out
(20:40):
what I wanted to do since afterI came from.
So in that journey I think thein-laws were not an issue in the
beginning for us because hismother is no more and his father
was back then in India, so thein-laws were not an issue.
It was as an arranged marriage,as a couple.
(21:02):
You know, it's like you said,the American system is so
different, yeah, and we haveadult children, so we see their
journeys, which is verydifferent, uh, from ours.
So, like you know, like chad,they date and they had
relationships, long term, shortterm.
So they have gone through this,uh, this process and they still
are going.
So for us, it was learning toknow each other was a big
(21:25):
challenge, you know, andlearning is not just as
individuals, learning about thecultures we were.
Now he is multicultural.
What he's been tell you.
He's also raised in kenya oh sohe is multicultural.
he's been exposed to so manydifferent cultures.
I was exposed to ind Indianculture and the Western culture.
Love the Western cultures, yeah, so I assimilated.
(21:47):
It was not an issue.
But the mindsets were stillimpacted by our cultures, so how
we thought and had expectationsof each other, like in gender
roles, for example.
Yeah, you know how thingsshould be Patriarchy versus
wanting independence versusequality.
So, those were the strugglesthat we actually faced and not
(22:11):
necessarily like it was an easyprocess.
And that's something I do see,Even if both the couples in my
practice they are born andraised in India.
He was raised, Chet was raisedhere and in Kenya.
But the couples who are bornand raised in India, but they're
coming here post-marriage oftenthe woman is coming here from
(22:31):
post-marriage One of the thingswhich I know I've been through
was isolation Not talked aboutIsolation and then, consequently
, depression until they areassimilated into the workforce
or they go back to college.
So and I'm saying this becauseI lived that, I lived that
experience this was foreign tohim.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
And this was really because he didn't experience
that.
He came here as a child.
He had assimilated, he hadcreated his identity, his
support system.
I'm coming here with no one,not knowing anyone.
Speaker 6 (23:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So I'm saying that was one of the frictions, I
think, between us, Because hewould be at work and I was
calling him.
Are you coming home, oh boy?
Speaker 6 (23:14):
You're my person that I need.
Yes, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I think so.
When I work with clients fromdifferent communities, different
countries, that's one of thethings I do intensively look at.
It's what was your migrationstory?
Where were you came from?
Sometimes, even within thecountry the United States is a
large country Moving and leavingback extended family.
(23:39):
Unless you're coming with afamily of your creation, it's
very lonely.
Speaker 6 (23:46):
We'll be right back.
You can hear the rest of thisconversation in just a moment.
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Speaker 6 (25:41):
Do you find yourself?
You know, because youspecifically deal with this
general culture people group,it's kind of a, I would say, a
niche community, but there's alot of people here from South
Asia.
Do you find yourself like tryingto reinforce the culture in
(26:02):
some ways, or do you find thatperhaps there it's, perhaps some
of the work that you have to dowith your clients is is kind of
undoing some of the culture inorder to in order to deal with
certain things?
In other words, when I thinkabout, like an arranged marriage
, I think there's some thingsabout that that could be really
(26:23):
just like relieve a lot ofweight off of someone's
shoulders.
But then there's some thingsabout that where I'm just like
man, I feel like I would almostbe a prisoner in some ways.
You know, and so, like and so,and that could be my individual
situation.
You know, one person you know isjust, you know, like you were
(26:43):
talking about like when youfirst came to the United States.
You're like, you're my person.
When are you coming home?
You know I need you.
You weren't feeling like aprisoner.
You're feeling like I'm tied toyou and I love you, you know.
So you have that part of it, sothat can be a uh, a help to you
.
But I think for some peoplecould probably feel like you
know, what did I do?
You know you feel like a victimof other people's choices in
(27:05):
that sense.
So how much of what you do is tokind of just navigate just
personality, personal conflicts,and how much of it is to
reinforce culture or to perhapsdeconstruct culture and then try
to put something back together.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
That's an excellent question.
So in my job as a therapist, myjob is not to reinforce their
values or beliefs.
My job is to ask what are theirvalues and beliefs that are
fitting into the situation?
The current situation they'rein is naming and identifying the
(27:42):
difference in cultures.
For example, like naming thatyou're coming from a different
culture, which is South Asiancultures tend to be very
collectivist.
You're coming to which isWestern cultures are very
individualistic.
So just naming, so that peoplecan recognize that there's a
reason I'm feeling different,there's a reason for that.
(28:03):
So part of it is processesnormalizing, naming and
normalizing the experiences sothey don't feel something's
wrong with me.
As far as it comes to do youdeconstruct the culture, people,
and I think I hear that asassimilation and acculturation.
People do that.
Different people do that attheir own pace and often it is
(28:27):
dependent on their lifeexperiences and how do they
internalize and process thoselife experiences into learnings
and their traumas.
So there's a lot of differentfactors.
For example, somebody who camehere.
I was very fortunate assomebody who came here.
I got into college and I chosepsychology and I started
(28:49):
studying, found an amazingcohort of friends and 30 years
later we still are friends.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
Wow, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
That gave me the roots that helped me create a
family of my choice, a family ofcreation.
That's great, so they becamepart of my family.
Speaker 6 (29:06):
I like that, a family of choice, because I know where
you're coming from because ofthe echoes of what you said,
where an arranged marriage isnot just the bringing together
of two people, but two families.
And so in some sense, you're noteven in charge of the choice of
who you marry, but even whoyour in-laws are, who your
extended family is and, in somesense, by finding a second
(29:31):
family in your colleagues andthe people that you went through
college with and went throughall that kind of gives you the
option of here is my family,that's given to me by someone
else's choice and here's thefamily that I get to choose.
Choose that I get to be a partof that and you know, and I
think both can have their valuesto them, you know.
So that's that's, that'sinteresting.
(29:52):
How, how does I?
Don't know, I'm interested.
How does that work for a lot ofpeople?
Like, how, how?
Like I like the way that yousaid that you don't try to speak
.
I can't remember exactly thewords you used, but it was like
you don't try to reinforce theirperception of their culture,
but you try to ask them toidentify for themselves what it
(30:14):
is that.
And explore with them andexplore with them what works for
them.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
I mean what part of the cultures people do want to
keep their cultural identity,and that's important it is
because it's such a deep part ofus yeah, you know, just like
your culture yeah, you knowcoming from wisconsin is it is a
part of you and always will bepart of you same thing.
It's like acknowledging that,normalizing them, exploring with
(30:38):
them yeah what works, whatdoesn't work?
Yeah and then also recognizingand naming the push and pull
yeah the guilt, the blame.
Often people say in the couplerelationship I've had many, many
, many couples tell me I amreally missing my family, I want
to help them and I'm sendingmoney and resources, and that is
(31:00):
true and people do.
The partner is saying I don'tunderstand, especially in like
cross-cultural relationshipswhere people are from two
different cultures comingtogether and they tell me, the
partners tell me I don'tunderstand this concept of this,
this guilt that you havetowards your family, filial
loyalty what do you mean?
Filial loyalty doesn'tsomething like like the italians
(31:22):
did.
What are you talking about?
so and so, understanding thosethose concepts that it's, for
example, that is, a collective'sculture.
The culture needs the youngerpeople to support the older
people, because in thosecultures, in those countries,
there are no senior homes yeahthere's no care for social
(31:43):
security.
Who takes care of the elderly isthe children.
So, having an understanding ofwhat's happening for each
individual in the session oftheir process and helping them
name it and recognize it, sothen they can say okay, I'm not
just acting just because I feellike this.
(32:04):
I'm doing certain thingsbecause I have certain loyalties
.
I feel guilt, I feel like I'veabandoned my family.
Okay, now let me see what worksfor me, or not.
So, it helps the partners alsoto recognize, helps the partners
recognize what's happening withtheir partner, recognize what's
happening with their partner.
Speaker 6 (32:24):
I'm thinking you know .
So, as you were talking andwe've been talking the last few
minutes, I've been thinkingabout this.
I think that I'd be interestedin knowing and I'm not expecting
you to know the answer to this,but I'd be interested in
knowing what say the divorcerates are of different cultures,
(32:44):
because I feel like I feel like, um, in western culture and
American culture, like if I'mthe one doing the choosing to
find my partner, then I canunchoose.
If I decide that that's not whatI you know, but in some cases I
would feel like in a, in aculture where the choosing is
being done for you in some sense, and and especially and I'd
like to hear you talk a littlebit more about this as well Like
(33:07):
the honor shame culture.
Like I can.
I can imagine how somebody whohas a choice being made for them
to be in a range situation forthem, feeling like I can't
unchoose this because this was,it was not under my power or
control to bring this together,this was somebody else's doing,
so therefore I'm, quote, unquote, stuck, or I'm you know
(33:30):
whatever.
So so then there's like, thismindset of like there's not.
I can't take that way out.
If I feel like I'm, if I'm,trapped, um, but then even, but
even then.
But that also takes certain,you know, certain solutions off
the table and it says now, whatdo I have to work with you?
know, and, and I think withinthat, like what are some of the
(33:53):
things that you find are helpfulfor people to think through?
Because I think that even as awestern, coming from a western
mindset, you know, chose my wife, I asked her to marry me.
You know that sort of thing.
I still feel bound by the, youknow, for me, the covenant of
marriage.
You know, I still feel thatthat's an important thing.
(34:14):
And even on days when you knowshe's the last person that I
want in the room with me, youknow it's like I still realize
no, there's, there's a biggerpicture here.
So what are some?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
of the challenges, maybe, or some of the ways that
you have to help people processthrough this understanding of
working through the relationalconflicts that come up,
multifaceted questions, I mean.
Speaker 6 (34:42):
There's a lot there I can talk for hours on
understand.
You're spending your lifetrying to answer these questions
and I'm asking you to answer intwo minutes.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Probably Absolutely.
So I think let me start withwhat, in my experience you know,
just answering, like, the firstquestion about what happens in
an arranged marriage is somebodyfinds themselves stuck.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Usually say the divorce rates that you mentioned
.
I have no data so I can tellyou, but I can tell you based on
experience divorce rates havegone up in the.
South Asian community and Ithink and this is not just my
experience I also run anetworking group of clinicians
and I hear that from most of usand most of us get the number
(35:28):
one call we get is myrelationship is in trouble.
Second one is like my child isin trouble and so.
But number one call for mostclinicians in the area and South
Asian clinicians from nowaround the country, we can say,
because we've been in contactwith clinicians actually across
the globe who work with SouthAsian community in different
(35:49):
countries as well and they saythe same thing that number one
call for counseling is myrelationship is in trouble.
Now, people don't always comein together, people often come
in individually as well andthere are times where, say, the
relationship is toxic to thepoint where it is dangerous.
When there's domestic violence,when there's infidelity, then
(36:11):
there is addictions.
Those become very, verydifficult, especially if the
person is in physical danger.
The children are in physicaldanger.
That becomes one of the numberone non-negotiables.
Physical danger that becomesone of the number one
non-negotiables.
The different.
The other things you know thatcan be worked on is often,
unless the distance between thecouple is so great that they
(36:35):
have given up on the marriage,on the relationship.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
They've already shut down.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
They've already shut down and they don't want to
re-engage.
There are some times we getthat.
Most of the time we are able toget them to a place to
re-engage, asking them, forexample, as you said, how do you
navigate those differences?
What are they missing in therelationship?
Especially if the partner isopen to coming in, then we can
(37:01):
have a conversation.
Most of the time when partnerscome in because they want to
listen, they want to know, likeyou said, you know there are
times with your wife.
It's like she's the last personI want to see right now but you
remember, she's also the personyou would go to.
Speaker 6 (37:16):
That's right.
That's right yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
When things go down.
Speaker 6 (37:19):
So, baby, if you're listening, I want you to hear
that part of it as well.
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
So often that's what is happening In an arranged
marriage.
The love may not be in thebeginning, but the love usually
grows A lot of time.
The love does grow, so theaffection, the connection does
grow amongst people.
It doesn't always last, butthere's no guarantees of
anything.
So in relationships wherecouples are willing to come in
(37:45):
or one is saying something iswrong, maybe I can make some
changes.
People come in and then we workon what is missing in their
relationship, what they can do.
Often our focus is ondeveloping and supporting the
person.
Become the person they want tobe.
Often that helps in anyrelationship.
That's great.
Speaker 6 (38:06):
Chet, I'm curious for you.
I can't remember which one ofyou mentioned, but the idea of
gender roles, the patriarchy, asbeing a big part of all of our
cultures but just in differentways, I think, we process it, we
see things differently.
Like as you think about, areyou also doing like therapy as
(38:31):
well?
Speaker 1 (38:31):
So I'm a life coach, so I help people in doing.
You know transitions fromcareers or changes in their
lives.
You know transitions fromcareers or changes in their
lives.
Speaker 6 (38:40):
So I'm just, I'm curious for you on the on the
whole gender role slash,patriarchy, influence and so on,
like how much of that, how muchof that do you feel is a
(39:08):
challenge, maybe for youpersonally, or that you can see
that transfers to a lot of otherpeople?
Because I would imagine in somecases, if, if I'm grow up, if I
grew up in a society where youknow I'm a man, my choices
matter the most, I'm the one whoyep, you know when I say it, it
happens.
And then being told, maybe incounseling or in some sort of a
therapy session, you've both gotto work on this.
You both have got and I'm notsaying this is the way you come
across it, but I can imagine youdon't approach it from this is
(39:29):
only a one-sided problem.
And then you've got to get inline with the man.
So for you, as you process itfrom a Southeastern, not South
Eastern- South.
Asian perspective.
Like, what does that feel?
Like?
What are some of the thingsthat?
What is that saying to you?
Like, how do you process that?
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah.
So I bring like two lenses tothat.
One is as a South Asian man,right, the other is as a student
of economics.
Know that's my background andso over time, that that
patriarchal setup worked wellbefore the world war ii, before
the 50s.
White picket fence mom stayshome, raises the kids, keeps the
(40:14):
kitchen clean, man man right,drives home, has everything,
supper is ready.
But after that we had a periodwhere women were forced to go to
work to help the war effort andthen when they were in the
workforce, they couldn't just beremoved, they stayed in the
(40:35):
workforce.
So now you had two income, twoworking, working folks, and
things had to change I mean,just all of a sudden you have a
partner running the householdand, and so that just has
evolved.
And it's true in south asianhomes, especially in
metropolitan cities and like inmumbai and delhi and so forth, a
(40:59):
lot of two-income families it'snot just mom that has to put
the kids to bed or read to themor help them with bathing or
homework.
So economics force that changeand you have to recognize that
that what you yearn for withyour grandfathers,
(41:20):
great-grandfather's era, is notrealistic anymore.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
So women gain autonomy, women gain a voice in
how things start to be done, andthey often bring in part of the
paycheck that runs thehousehold.
That's right so you have toflex, so you have to flex.
Speaker 6 (41:41):
Yeah, you have to flex.
Yeah, it is interesting becausefor so long, like I was just I
was recently I was going backand watching some old TV shows
and some old movies from youknow, ones that I would have
either been made.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
My favorite is Leave it To Be Right yeah and yeah,
exactly.
Speaker 6 (41:59):
So you look at that and you're like, in that day and
age, at that time period, allof that made sense.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah, father knows best.
Speaker 6 (42:06):
Everyone could relate to that, because that's what
houses and families look like,you know, across the country.
Yeah, you know you didn't havepeople revolting.
You didn't have people, youknow, like canceling it Yep, you
didn't have people.
You know, like canceling it Yep, this was it, you know, and so.
But now you play some of thoseepisodes to people today you can
(42:36):
, it's a.
You probably have a hard timeeven finding those episodes,
those shows, because it doesn'tlike that's what I was going to
say.
I mentioned talking about likehow you do you help them
deconstruct the culture.
I was even just thinking, as Iwas mentioning, that I was like
I feel like our society is inthe middle of deconstructing our
Western culture.
Things that were okay 20 yearsago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago,
are not okay today, and I thinkthat there is is I think there
(43:00):
could be a pendulum swing oneway or the other.
I think there's always apendulum swing.
You could say, well, this isnot okay, so let's go all the
way over here, and it's likethen you find that there's a lot
of problems there with with iton the other side.
Um, so I guess I guess my yeah.
So so I guess what I'm sayingis is like there it's, we're in
a, it's becoming more and morefluid, more and more flexible
(43:25):
situation within our society andculture today.
So I guess my question is forboth of you, as you guys
interact with people from SouthAsian communities that are here
now, what are some of the thingsthat you find and now you've
already mentioned some of youalready mentioned some of them,
but more specifically, like,what are some of the things that
(43:47):
you find that are consistentlyproblematic?
That can be things that you youknow that maybe you know that
you're constantly having theseconversations like what are some
of those conversations and whatare some of the things that you
find are helpful solutions forfixing those?
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Okay, great question again.
So I'm thinking about, apartfrom in-laws being one of the
major issues for most families,what we hear is gender roles.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
As I think Chet mentioned that.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
And the other is parenting, work, work stress.
Parenting is an issue, soespecially understanding the two
different generations, thegenerational gap between the
immigrants who come here, whowere born and raised in a
different country and are cominghere at a later age, like me
and in our 20s, to go foreducation or marriage and
(44:40):
whatever reasons, so versus thegeneration that they're raising,
so that is a big source ofconflict within families.
So those are some of the thingsthat we come in, so in-laws is
usually number one gender roles,work stress and then parenting
differences.
Speaker 6 (44:57):
What are some of the things that you help parents?
I mean, I'm trying to think howI would approach trying to talk
to somebody differences.
What are some of the thingsthat you help parents?
I'm trying to think how I wouldapproach trying to talk to
somebody about that andencourage them.
What are some of the thingsthat you find to be helpful to
help parents navigate that?
Speaker 2 (45:11):
It's helping them understand that there are two
different cultures at clash, twodifferent generations clash and
are is understanding what thekids are going through.
For example, I have this classthat I I actually workshop.
That I do often in the library,here and other places.
(45:33):
It's called communicating withyour teens.
Rather, we call it how to getyour teens to listen to you.
Now, in my culture, if when Istarted doing this workshop,
when I started promoting thisworkshop in the South Asian
community, I made the mistakeonce, or actually started with
how to have effectiveconversations with your teens, I
(45:57):
don't think I got too manypeople.
Maybe, maybe about 20 peopleshowed up.
As soon as I changed it to howto get your teens to listen to
you, I had 80 people standingroom only.
So, I was like, and this wasthis tiny room in the library
and that workshop still packs,though I think the core of the
workshop is how to communicate,in other words, with your teens,
(46:20):
if you want to, is how tocommunicate, in other words with
your teens if you want to, ishow to listen to them, because I
work with kids and teens andthat's one of the things they
talk about.
Our parents don't listen to usbecause they have their
expectations.
Being the first generationimmigrants here, our objective
is study, earn, start a family,buy a house, put the kids in a
(46:43):
private school or in a niceschool, definitely in a nice
college, a whole bunch ofdifferent activities so they can
get into all the wonderfulcolleges in the in the us and
make something of themselvesbetter than us yeah the kids are
saying thank you much.
We don't have that mindsetbecause, guess what, You're
already providing for us.
So we are not as hungry.
(47:03):
So we want to do art, we wantto do music, we want to travel
the world, we want to have a job, quit and do something else.
And the parents are like, oh myGod, what's wrong with my child
?
Nothing is wrong with yourchild.
You have given them a greatcushion, an upbringing.
It's not that they won't findtheir ways.
(47:24):
They will find a different pathfrom yours.
So that is one of the bigissues that come up with my
families when it comes toparenting is understanding your
child because of the generation,the culture, the space they are
in.
They're not in India, whereyou're fighting for scraps.
You're not fighting.
You're not seeing people eatfrom the garbage, which is what
(47:46):
we grew up with seeing.
So you understand the value offood, you're going to clean your
plate, but when there's foodthat's abundant, you're not
going to clean your platebecause you haven't experienced
that.
So one of the things that wework on is working with the
parents understand and trying tosee things from their lenses,
understanding the differentcultures and value systems that
(48:09):
are at clash To be good parentsI'm not saying being the best
parent or perfect parent,because there's no such things,
but being good parents islearning to listen that's really
good.
Speaker 6 (48:22):
yeah, that's really good, I think, and I think that
when you almost going back tolike the leave it the beaver,
you know this is, this is a asnapshot of what the majority
culture was like in the us, youknow, back in the whenever that
was 60s, 70s, I can't rememberbut, um, but you go back to that
.
I think that in some ways, someways, because we're in a time
(48:44):
frame when there's cultureschanging and shifting and being
influenced by, we didn't havethe access to seeing things
across the world like we do now.
We didn't know those thingsexisted and now we have the
ability to see everything that'sgoing on and it influences
everything that we think andbelieve and we do, whereas, you
(49:05):
know you might, 50 years ago inIndia, it might have been very
clear what your future was goingto be.
What you were going to do.
There was no question.
Like the amount of you know,flexibility with your future
might have been a.
So you know, some total of 15percent.
(49:27):
Fifteen percent of your life isnot quite determined, but the
other 85 percent.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
all change after CNN and MTV Right.
You know, started blasting fromsatellites, and that's exactly
right.
Speaker 6 (49:36):
Yeah, I mean even to that.
You remember, I remember goingto Albania.
I went to Albania about 20.
I guess it was about 25 yearsago, 20, 25 years ago, and it
was.
They had just, you know,communism had just fallen.
It's very closed, very, verydifferent, but they were
listening and watching.
They were watching televisionand movies from America that
(49:58):
were made, you know, 20, 30years earlier and everybody was
dressing like them.
So you would go there and theywould expect you're an American
coming and I'm coming in my youknow whatever, my car hearts and
my you know whatever it is, andthey're dressed like somebody
out of the 70s and I'm like whatin the world?
And it's like because that'sthe you.
So so it's not.
You know, you start seeing thatin different places as soon as
(50:21):
cnn, mtv, all those places, alllike it starts starts opening up
a whole world, right?
Speaker 1 (50:27):
the gap between when the information would transfer
for it took like 10, 15 yearsfor those movies to make it over
was like 15 days, right.
Michael jackson was a hit,right, that's right.
Speaker 6 (50:38):
Yeah, I, I think that's, I think that's right.
Yeah, I think that's, I thinkthat's really fascinating and I
do think that it is something uh, I think that the recovery time
of the things I say it that way, I'm making that terminology up
on the spot here but thatrecovery time of that, you know,
over adjustment, or thatadjustment to one thing or
(50:59):
another, because you know, eveneven for me, even for me, I
didn't come from a differentcountry, but I was born in
Wisconsin, grew up in a farmingcommunity, I spent a lot of my
time influenced by a farminglife.
My family was not well off, welived in very poor conditions
most of my life growing up, andI was the oldest of six kids and
(51:25):
I had a lot of responsibilitiesthat you know were on my
shoulders, that a lot of peopledon't have, and I'll say this
more specifically because thisis where I'm getting at by
saying that I had a lot ofresponsibilities and a certain
kind of situation that my sondoes not have.
We now live in California.
We now live in a much nicerhouse than I've ever lived.
(51:48):
This is the nicest house I'veprobably ever lived in in my
life, and we have a lot ofthings at our fingertips that I
never would have even imaginedhaving To the point.
You were saying when I grew up,we cleaned our plate because you
didn't know if we were going tohave food for the next meal.
And now my son's like I'm nothungry and I'm like if you only
knew what my mom would have saidto you, if you only knew what
(52:10):
my dad would have said to you,if you would have said that you
know.
But then it's like do I look at?
And then I have to look at thatand say is what my mom said to
me or my dad said to me, was itthe right thing?
I think maybe in the moment itwas the right thing, maybe it
was right.
But should I be putting thatexpectation on my son, who's
basically saying you know, Idon't want to be overfed, I
(52:32):
don't want to be over, you know.
And so then it's just like forme as a parent, I'm trying to
like figure that out and say howdo I work around?
How do I deal with this?
What is the right answer?
So maybe I need to come to yourworkshops and figure out.
He's not a teenager yet, but Icould use some help figuring out
how to talk to him and how tolisten to him Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
And you're talking about culture and generational
clash, Cultural clash.
The culture was so differentwhen you grew up I mean the
space that we grew up on a farmwhere food was scarce and it was
difficult.
There were hardships.
He's not going to know that.
Because, you gave him a reallygood, smooth, comfortable life
(53:13):
and if you expect him to relateand react the same way as you
did, he's not going to.
Because it's so different forhim.
Same note this is what I tellthe parents.
I think that's an excellentexample and thank you for
sharing that.
You know being so candid aboutthis, because this is what
parents like don't understandoften.
Why is my child so different?
(53:34):
Your child?
What your child is goingthrough is very normal, given
their circumstances, given theenvironment they're in.
You know MTV and YouTube andReels and don't forget like.
Snapchat and.
Tiktok.
And what's the other one Insta?
Speaker 1 (53:52):
How can you forget Insta?
My kids are starting to lead anInsta life.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
It's not on.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
Insta.
It's not real.
It's right.
It's a very different world andjust generations here.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
You know, like you said things at your fingertip
yeah you didn't have that yeah,access to internet.
That's right, it's like you canhave computers which are phones
, which are smarter thancomputers.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Yeah, oh, yeah so one thing I wanted to mention is
that, um, I'm in a uniqueposition, so I consider myself
not second generation and notfirst generation generation 1.5
because I came here early enoughright that most of my formation
has been in the us okay but Ihave very vivid memories of the
(54:36):
young me living in India in thatlifestyle, with those
requirements or, you know,expectations of me.
So when I hear the first-genparents preaching to their kids,
I get it.
You know, I lived it right, butI also grew up here.
(54:58):
I went to junior high, highschool, college, grad school, so
I know that life as well andit's like what are your parents
saying that's effed up dude,yeah, absolutely.
But I can also tell them heylook, this is where they're
coming from.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
This is what they live through.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
This is the only path forward.
They knew and what they'redoing is out of you know, the
love for you, their way to treatyou in the best way possible
that they know.
Speaker 6 (55:33):
Yeah, I'm interested.
I'm interested because beforewe started recording, you
started talking about crosscultures and being able to like
analyze that and interpret thosethings.
I am curious because I do knowa bit about cross cultures and
so at least I've I've talkedwith people who know things and
I've studied a little bit ofmyself.
But I'm so the Western culture,american American mindset's
(55:55):
more of a guilt innocenceculture.
You know, am I right or wrong?
You're wrong, I'm right, thatsort of thing.
And so we approach things from.
You know, am I right or wrong?
You're wrong, I'm right, thatsort of thing.
And so we approach things from.
You know, if you're late, if yousaid you were going to be here
at three o'clock and you showedup at 305, you're late, well,
that's not necessarily the waythat, like a culture that comes
from like more of a shame honorsystem would approach it.
You know there's not necessarilya right or wrong, it's not
(56:15):
necessarily.
You know there's not a hardline on that.
Um, but I guess my question isthis and we I'm sure there's a
lot could be said about, likethe, the pros and cons of, like
a guilt innocence culture versusa honor shame culture, um, but
I'm just wondering, like withthat 1.5 or with the you know
(56:41):
first generation, you know thatgrew up in india, or from any
country for that matter, andthen the second generation
growing up in the united states,you know, you have the
influences of like those sortsof things, the right, wrong
versus honor, shame, or evenlike the second generation.
Um, I don't know, I'm just I'mcurious how that impact and the
(57:04):
influences that they, that inthe way that they, that people
see whether it's right, wrongversus honor, shame maybe in um.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
In the older generation the reputation
reputation of the family, youknow mattered a lot and
influenced um how they behaved,what they expected of their
parents, what they hid abouttheir parents and what they
promoted about their children.
Right and um, the youngergeneration is like what do I
(57:35):
care what my aunt or you know,that some neighbor or some buddy
in the temple or church thinksabout me?
I gotta live my own life.
My, my, uh.
You know homies are good withwhat I'm doing.
I'm getting all the likes Iwant on.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
That's right insta and facebook loves me, so I'm
killing it, yeah, so that's thedichotomy.
Yeah, yeah, well so that comesfrom, I think, what I mentioned
earlier about theindividualistic versus the
collectivist cultures.
In a collectivist culture,shame and honor are important
because, like Chet said, it'snot about the individual, it's
(58:12):
about the entire family oh,that's interesting.
Yeah, yes, versus the right orwrong being here on time.
You know it's veryindividualistic yeah your basic
needs are met individually youare able to meet your basic
needs individually in westernsocieties because the resources
are plenty.
That is not true in many southasian countries and other
(58:36):
countries as well yeah, and.
And so where there is acollective, there is a need for
the collective to ensure thesurvival of the most.
So the shame and honor comes in, because shame is a great
motivator, guilt and shame, asI've had many people tell me.
Oh, my parents ruled me byguilt and shame and I was like,
(58:57):
dude, I totally get that.
Guess what, been there, donethat.
And our sons are great.
My older son is amazing withhis boundaries and he's like mom
, you're guilting me.
Oh, yes, sorry, but no tomyself not do that again that's
funny but the cultural learningsare so deep.
you know that even as atherapist i've've had to be,
(59:19):
I've had him, he's had tocorrect me and point it out, and
that's like whoa, I got to bemore mindful of what I'm doing.
So that is, I'm sorry.
Speaker 6 (59:28):
No, no, I was just going to.
I was going to say kind of inresponse to that, though I mean
I can imagine that there arepros again, pros and cons to
both mindsets.
So it could be that, like Iwould say that even just
recently I was talking to agroup of people that I'm helping
to lead and there's a mixtureof people who are you know, who
are clearly, you know, CaucasianAmericans, and then there's a
(59:50):
bunch that are from all over theworld, including a lot of
countries that would beconsidered more of an honor
shame society, and I was talkingto them about the and I brought
this up about you know what itmeans to be late or on time or
whatever, because I, I don't, Idon't, I'm not on time the way
that I ought to be, sometimes um, but um, but I can, I I've been
(01:00:12):
around a society most of mylife where it's like when you're
late, you need to, you need.
You know, you're the one that'sin the wrong, you're the one
that needs to fix it, you know.
But then we were one that's inthe wrong, you're the one that
needs to fix it, you know.
But then we were talking aboutthere are some people who are
like they were talking about.
What does it mean to start ontime?
And for a certain culture, likethe guilt, innocence culture,
it was like the way that youshow honor and respect, the way
(01:00:33):
that you show like you knowpeople that you care, is that
you start on time, right.
But then there's other peoplethat you don't start until
certain people, the most honoredpeople, are there.
You can't start until everyoneshows up, and especially the
people that matter the most youknow grandpa or grandmother, or
(01:00:53):
mom and dad or whatever.
And I was telling them.
I think that you know I said tothis group that I'm helping to
lead.
I said neither one of them areright, neither one of them are
correct.
I mean I'm using theright-wrong paradigm there.
But I said what we need to dois we need to show consideration
toward one another and evenlove toward each other, and say,
(01:01:13):
yeah, I want to be considerateof the people that are more
honor-shame focused and say,yeah, I want to be considered to
the people that are more honorshame focused.
And so we need to recognizethat we don't want to start till
you get here, because we docare about you, but at the same
time, there's people who've beenhere for 20 minutes before the
time because they were expectingus to start on time.
And if we start 20 minutes latebecause there's a bunch of
(01:01:35):
people not showing up on time,then we need to respect them as
well and we need to say, okay, Ineed to work hard to try to be
here closer to the start timethat was predetermined so that
I'm not so anyway.
I don't know.
I think it's just like anongoing working conversation
that needs to happen and I cansee how that affects the group
that I'm leading and we're notnecessarily related, but I can
(01:01:56):
see how that can be achallenging dynamic to deal with
within a family parents to kidsor whatever.
Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Oh, I think you're a very good example, especially
around timing.
I think that you're bringing upin a lot of collectivist
culture.
You're absolutely right.
Everybody waits for the peoplewho are important, the elders
usually.
It's usually the elders Also.
I was going to say there's alsoa logistical challenge
(01:02:29):
Transportation.
Speaker 6 (01:02:30):
Right, that's right yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
How are you going to get there on time?
Transportation is an issue.
Speaker 6 (01:02:35):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Times become stretchable, and also the
boundaries.
You know that you're talkingabout boundaries.
Okay, you come at 10 and thenyou've got to be done by 12.
Those don't exist in thosecultures.
Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Here we're kind of trained.
You know, our school system isit's a nine o'clock class.
You have like 9.05 and you'retardy.
You do that too many times.
That means you got to runfaster.
Speaker 6 (01:03:02):
That's right Get your act together.
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
You're clearly not showing respect to your teacher
Speaking of shame and guilt.
Speaker 6 (01:03:12):
I'm going to be guilty of being late for my wife
here in a few minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
This is not rushing us off.
Speaker 6 (01:03:18):
But we've been having it's funny, I'm looking at the
time been having.
I it's it's funny Like I'mlooking at the time marker on on
our interview and it's like wejust hit an hour and I was like
how did that happen?
Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
You guys.
This has been an awesomeconversation.
Yeah, I've enjoyed it very much, yeah.
Speaker 6 (01:03:33):
Clean way to kind of wrap it down.
I was going to say if we reallywanted to, and I think that'd
be super fun, but if peoplewanted to know more about what
you're doing and if they areinterested in hearing more of
you because I find what you'resaying to be extremely
fascinating, and just the factthat this is something that you
regularly practice as you helppeople walk through this
yourself, what are some waysthat people can find out more
(01:03:54):
about you and find out whatyou're doing?
Maybe hear more of what you'redoing the workshops.
How can we find out all aboutall that?
Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
So absolutely Best way to contact me is through my
website, which is shalinimftcom.
I have my phone number and it's510-612-6471.
That's a direct one.
I also have a nonprofit,basanth and now and which Chet
and I we run together and weco-founded and we run, so we
(01:04:23):
provide that and the workshopsare through there to the
communities.
Speaker 6 (01:04:27):
How would you define the non-profit again?
Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
So, it's called basantnoworg, so B-A-S-A-N-T now
.
N-o-w dot org and a lot of theworkshops we've done have been
at the Fremont Main Library,okay, and they're free and open
to anyone and everyone.
Speaker 6 (01:04:45):
And they're focused on the things that we've been
talking about.
We did a whole series onparenting.
Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Okay, We've done others on relationships and so,
yeah, it's great Stress.
Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
I mean anxiety, depression, mental health,
because the objective is todemystify and also take away the
shame around mental health.
So yes, I mean people can findus.
Uh, I think if you google myname, my phone number will show
up awesome and best way tocontact me and I think then if
there's a question for chet, Ican always let him know that's
(01:05:16):
great so, but he has his ownsite as well okay, so, and you,
you said you did coaching, right, yeah, life coaching yeah, so
I'm chetdalecoachingcom is mywebsite so
Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
and yeah I'm not a licensed psychologist, but more
of a life coach for people umwho are transitioning from a
career to another career oranother stage in life, or just
trying to improve theirwell-being.
Speaker 6 (01:05:43):
That's great, that's awesome.
Well, I've really enjoyedgetting to talk to you guys,
it's good to meet you guys andI'm glad, I'm thankful for what
you're doing in our Fremontcommunity.
I think these are the kinds ofthings that we number one, the
community needs to know about,and number two, I think that we
benefit from it.
Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
We don't even realize it sometimes, so really, uh,
really grateful for what you'redoing and glad that you got to
be on the podcast here.
Oh, thank you for having us.
Yes, thank you, and we'll makesure that we put all the
information that you gave us inthe show notes, so people will
be able to find that.
Speaker 6 (01:06:14):
Absolutely thank you try to find it themselves.
Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
So thank you guys.
Speaker 6 (01:06:17):
Oh, thank you yes oh, one more thing I should say.
You said you had a podcast too,right?
Yes, so the podcast?
Is that connected with yournon-profit, or where does the
podcast?
Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
yeah, it is so there's a whole library of
podcasts we've done in the paston different topics, okay,
related to mental health, andthey're all accessible from the
basant now, okay, and my site aswell, I think on my site as
well and we have a YouTubechannel that and yes so yeah, so
most of the topics, andactually all the topics, are
(01:06:48):
about mental health, somedifferent aspects, because we
have I interview a whole bunchof clinicians, different kinds
you know, so anybody who isinterested, who is a clinician
and wants to come and talk on mypodcast.
Speaker 6 (01:07:00):
I'll interview them just like you do.
We'll put a link on the podcasthere as well.
Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
This episode was hosted and produced by Ricky B.
I'm Gary Williams, Andrew Kvetis the editor.
Scheduling and pre-interviewsby Sarah S.
Be sure to subscribe whereverit is that you listen so you
don't miss an episode.
You can find everything we make, the podcast and all of our
social media links atthefremontpodcastcom.
(01:07:28):
Join us next week on theFremont Podcast.
Speaker 5 (01:07:33):
This is a Muggins Media Podcast.
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