July 8, 2025 • 53 mins
The Test. The Silence. The Truth. | The Fronczak Files: Episode 3 – “The Discovery”
DNA Revelations • Identity Crisis • Family Secrets • Genetic Genealogy • Media Breakthrough
A simple over-the-counter DNA kit. A quiet kitchen conversation. A decision that would change everything.
In this revealing episode of The Fronczak Files, Paul finally confronts the truth he’s always suspected: he’s not the Fronczaks’ biological son. What begins as a personal journey spirals into a media storm and a national search to find the real Paul Fronczak. Alongside Emmy-winning journalist George Knapp, who was the first to believe his story, Paul shares the emotional toll, the silence that followed, and the courage it took to mail that test.
This episode explores:
• The emotional weight behind taking a DNA test
• Why Paul’s parents begged him not to send the results
• The devastating moment Paul’s identity was shattered
• How a single email to George Knapp changed everything
• The media whirlwind that reignited a 50-year-old mystery
If you’re drawn to:
• Real-life identity revelations
• Foundling and cold case investigations
• Stories of truth, loss, and family loyalty
• Groundbreaking uses of DNA in unsolved cases
…this episode will leave you stunned.
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🎵 Theme Music by Paul Jack Fronczak and Rick Holland
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome back to the Fronczak Files.
I'm your host, Paul Fronczak.
(00:25):
And I'm your. Co-host, Tracey Hastings.
Hey, Tracey.
Here we go again.
Ready to dig into this journey?
I can't believe it.
It's crazy.
So if you were listeningand following along on this journey,
then you know exactly where we are.
If you haven't, stop, go back to episodeone and bring it back to where we are now.
(00:48):
Because you can't miss anythingon this journey.
So we last left off.
I was at a CVS drugstorebuying an identity gene paternity kit.
I finally decided, hopefully,to ask my parents
to do a DNA test with meto see if I was actually of Fronczak.
So, Tracey set the scene where we are.
(01:09):
Well, this is 2012. So.
Technology has come a long waysince the kidnaping and the recovery.
And this is sort of the definitive.
Way to figure out who you are.
And I think people were starting to.
Think about that.
At that time when these thingswere becoming available over the counter.
And it wasn't exorbitantly expensive.
(01:29):
Either, to have it. Done.
And so. You, I'm sure, were one of many.
Who tried.
Paternity test on the shelf and thought,
Let me see if this works.
Yeah.
Because, you know, before that, Michelleand I, my wife
at the time, decided that
maybe if we get some hair samplesfrom my parents, we could do a DNA test,
(01:50):
because, believe it or not,this has been haunting me my whole life.
Right.
But it wasn't until, like, the lastmaybe 15 years or so that we started
actually realizing that maybe we couldn'tget a test done that was affordable.
So we joked about my parents,
who go to church on Sundayswhen they came out and visited us,
so we'd get a Ziploc bagand get the hairs off their pillows.
I was like, this is great.
(02:10):
I could send this in, right?
And I'm like,who am I going to send it to?
Because back then you had to be a criminalor something in order to have your DNA
checked, right?
Right, right.
So I, you know,we kind of scrapped that idea.
I think I still have that bag of old hairlaying around somewhere.
(02:32):
But then when I saw the CVSidentifying kit, I thought, this is it.
I can actually maybe get an answer now.
So it was a big step, but it was it waseverything was leading up to that moment.
And you know, people don't like okay,if you heard my story on another podcast.
They just they brush over thisand they go right into the actual results
and all that stuff.
But what you don't think aboutis what you're actually thinking about.
(02:53):
And I've met a lot of people along thisjourney who have no idea who they are,
and they're scared to deathto take that first step,
you know, to to start that journey,to find out who they actually are.
It's not easy.
Even if you think in your mindthat this is exactly what I want to do.
It's easy. I'm just going to do it.
There are so many factors, so many humanfactors involved with that, right?
(03:14):
How are people people feeling?
How is your family going to take it?
How are you going to take it?
You know, a lot of people end upneeding therapy and stuff like that,
and I don't think I do at this point.But you never know.
Things could change.
But anyway, so I
decided a long time agothat I was going to find a way
to find out if I was truly Pauland this test was going to do it.
(03:35):
So I bought it, brought it home,put it in the in the cabinet,
and then it sat there.
My parents came out a few more timessince then and I thought,
I've got, I've got, I've got to do this,I've got to get them to take this test.
But how do you do it?Your parents love you. You love them.
You never talk about the kidnaping. It'svery upsetting.
It was a tragedy that was never solved.
(03:57):
So they came out in Julyand they wanted to see Emma.
So we're hanging out.
They were out probably for a week,
and I had that kid just sitting in my
in the closet in the bathroom,and I thought, I've got to do this right.
But, you know, days go by, you'rehaving fun, you know, everything's great.
And the last thing you want to dois spring something like that on them.
(04:18):
So that was about an hour beforeI was going to take them to the airport.
And I thought, this is it.
If I don't do it now, I don't know whenI'm going to have the chance to do this.
So we're all sitting around a table
and as Michelle describes it,it was like I was going to order a pizza.
It was that that flew in.
I just asked.
(04:41):
Yeah.
I, you know, sitting around,my dad was doing something.
My mom was in the kitchen.
I said, hey, mom, did you ever reallywonder if I was your child?
I just put it out there, you know?
And I think I got her so off guard.
She's like, yeah, you know, wewe thought about it.
I said, well,what if we had a way to find out for sure
if I'm really Paul would you do it?
(05:02):
And she's like, yeah, yeah, probably.
So I ran to the closet.
I got that identifying kit.
I put it on the kitchen table, and my dad,
I don't think he knewwhat the hell was happening.
And I would pop it open, these cats,and the next thing you know,
they're swabbing away,and I'm sealing it up.
And in my mind,I was thinking, this is it.
I was taken back to the
(05:23):
crawl space and the big score,looking for the Christmas presents,
I guess, was the big scoreafter all this time.
We're going to find out.
years later.
You're in this moment of.
I'm gonna find out.
Yeah, I mean, we're right there.
This is. We're on the cusp, right?
We're going to get an answer.
I wasn't even thinking about the outcome.
(05:43):
I just I just wanted to get that kit.
I wanted to get it sealed up, and and,you know, mail it off.
Yeah.
Which I don't think I would have because,I mean, I was I've been thinking
about that for a long time,but still you never know, right.
So we sealed it up.
I put it on my desk,and I was just elated.
I was so happy. I was walking on clouds.
(06:05):
My parents didn't say a word,and I had to take them to the airport.
It was only about a 15 20 minute drive,but it felt like it took two weeks.
They didn't say a word.
It was just a choir, a very quiet ride.
I get them to the airport.
They're getting out.
We hug and say goodbye and everything.
But it was.
It was like the kind of goodbyewhere it's like, this is a final goodbye.
(06:28):
Like we're never gonnatalk to you again. That's.
Yeah,
right.
I kept, you know,I was trying to make it light, you know?
But inside I was like, this is awesome.
They go back to Chicago.
I go back home. I'm just.I'm happy. Right?
I'm, you know, Whistlin Dixieat this point, whatever that means.
(06:51):
And I get a phone call about four hourslater.
I'm like, oh, it's just my parents.
They called.
My mom said,we don't want you to mail that in.
You're our son.
We don't want to know the answer.
Just drop it.
I'm like,I okay, let me let me think about it.
(07:12):
Whatever I said in the moment,because I didn't want to upset them.
We said goodbye
and we hung up, and that was it.
I mean, in my mind,I was going to mail that thing off.
Michelle had a different plan.
She was like,you have to honor your parent's wishes.
You can't.
You can't mail that in, you know,just forget about it.
You know, you're Paul.
(07:32):
You're my husband. You're my dad.
Just. Just let it go.
And so I put it in my desk drawer,
and it sat there for about a week,maybe even two weeks.
I passed that desk 100 times a day.
And I kept thinking,I want to get an answer.
I don't want to piss off my parents.
Right. So you're wrestling with that?
(07:53):
Finally, I'm getting ready to go to work.
One morning.
I just grabbed it.
I walked across the street to the mailbox.
I said, you know what?
I've got to do this.
I've come too far. I need an answer.
And I go to put it in the mailbox
and sure as shit,it gets stuck halfway in.
I'm like.
of those blue. Freestanding oneswith. The.
(08:14):
With the handle Yeah, yeah.
It was like the universegiving me a final test, you know?
Are you sure you want to do this?
If you want to do it,you're going to have to work for it.
You're going to have to beatthis box into that mailbox.
At. You know, the funny thing,
I think I looked at the sky and said,what the fuck, you know?
(08:35):
So I just I looked at the mailboxand I just punched it in
and I heard it go clunk to the bottom.
I think I stood there for a minutelooking at that mailbox going, there's
no turning back. This is it.
I'm finally going to get the answer.
After all these years,after all this time, right?
And, said this was the summer.
This is in Yeah, it was in July.
(08:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Here's the crazy part, right?
It. Look, thinking back.
It felt like it was only weeks,
I actually didn't get the results backuntil October
15th, 2012.
It took that long because,you know, nowadays, if ancestry was taken,
(09:16):
what is that?
4 or 5 months to get your stuff back.
Yeah.
They wouldn't have any customers.
Right. It'd be like,no, we got to close down.
We're taking six months to get results.
Yeah, I took that long.
And the way I got the results were
crazy.
Do you want to know how I got them?
(09:37):
So I was at work at the Art Institute
at my desk, and my phone rangmy cell phone, so I answered it.
It was a guy's voice.
He said, is this Paul Fronczak?
And I said yes.
He asked mea couple of security questions.
He said, this is so-and-so with identitygene.
We have your results.
I said, okay.
And he said, distinct.
(09:59):
I was excited.
I mean, I was I've been waiting. How long for this now?
My God.
Years, right.
So I'm finally going to get the results.
He said there's no remote possibility
that you're the childof Chester and Dora Fronczak.
And even though I knew
it, I knew it since I was a young kid.
(10:20):
All of a sudden, you hear it
and you know it's real.
And there's no turning back.
I felt
you can't unhear it.
And all of a sudden,
my life just flashed before my eyes.
Everything I thought I knew about myself,it just vanished.
Right. The first thing you think of is.
How old am I?
(10:41):
Am I really this old?
My second thought
was that was I really polish?
I mean, I never really felt polish.
No. I'm kidding.
But, I mean, it's like you knew somethingabout all these things, right?
And then the most thing I mean wasI was I had Taurus.
I had zero Taurus compatibility things.
I mean, I'm I'm not a Taurus.
(11:03):
Not at all.
I mean, any horoscope specialistwould have told me that years ago
I could have saved the money and it dented, you know, just your horoscope ologist.
Right, right.
So there it was.
I finally got the answer that I knew,but I just wasn't ready for, I guess.
I hung up the phone.
(11:23):
I just sat at my desk in shock.
After a couple minutes, I called Michelleand I said, I don't know what to do.
I don't know who I am.
I know nothing about my life.
Everything that everyone elsetakes for granted,
I don't have that.
I don't have anything right now.
And she took.
(11:44):
didn't have, an age. Who?
You didn't have an ethnicity.
You didn't have. Parents.
Do I.
Have siblings?
Do who? Yeah. No information
And the real reason I started that,if we think back,
is that I wanted to get a medical historyon myself for my daughter.
Was I being an authentic father to her?
(12:04):
Yeah.
So Michelle took the opposite approachcompletely.
She's like, you know exactly who you are.
You're Paul Fronczak.
You're my husband.
You're Emma's dad.
That.
That's all you need to know.
That didn't help me at all.
(12:24):
to a very complicated question.
And I think that happens to people.
When they find themselves in.
Similar situationsto you, the people around them.
They sort of just want to.
They don't want to look at it.They don't want to deal with it.
So they just tell you it's okay.You don't.
It doesn't matter.
None of that matters to us. You.
We know who you are. You know who you are.
But it matters to you.
(12:44):
And that's what really counts.
The only thing that we have authenticallyin our lives is our identity.
That's it.
A wolf can leave its pack for yearsand come back to that pack.
And they know each other.
They're alwayswelcome back into that pack.
We as humans are.
We're the same, right?
I mean, wewe have an identity and that's it.
(13:05):
And when that's taken away,you have nothing in.
with any.
If you identify said Polish. Irish.
French.
Is. That really. My. History?
Is that really where. I come from?
Right down to the core of who you are as.
A human being?
So I finish out my dayat work, and I went home.
(13:26):
And, of course, Michelle and Ihad a long conversation about everything.
Yeah, it was, it wasn't, wasn't one of the better conversations
because I knew in my mindalready what I had to do.
The only thought I had was,
I want to find the real Paul.
My parents were amazing people.
They raised me.They gave me this wonderful life,
(13:49):
and they had
this tragedy happen to themthat was never solved.
So how can I repay them?
I know I can find their kidnaped child,
and that's the only thought I had.
So I had the results.
I think they came in on a Saturday.
(14:09):
I mean, I know no,they came in during the week, but then I,
I was the weekend and we weresitting around thinking about what to do.
How can I solve this?
I'm just. I'm just the guy and one guy.
I don't have a team.I don't have specialists.
DNA was just getting started.
Then back in 2012,it wasn't this craze that is now.
(14:29):
Everyone'sgetting DNA tested and everything.
So I thought,there's only one possible thing I can do.
I can use the one medium that my parentshated with all their hearts.
The news
I had to go to the news because how else
can I casta wide net to try to bring in clues?
(14:50):
Tips?
Find the answer and find the real Paul.
That's all. That's all I wanted to do.
So I remember it was this.
yourself in a situationwhere you're probably pushing your parents
into a pretty uncomfortable position hereWell,
I still haven't even told themI got the results back.
(15:10):
you're thinking. About what.
You're going to. Do.
And then,
you know, you've mentioned several timesI was thinking about my parents and the.
The. Fearand the hate that they had for the media.
That their exposure.
When the baby was kidnaped
that could drag them, you know,drag them right back into it again.
And you were. Very aware of that.
But I looked at it on the flip side.
I'm like, who else can get the word out
(15:31):
to get the the national attention
that we need in orderto try to find this kidnaped child?
I thought it was easy.
You know, I thought it's a slam dunk.
But who to contact?
I had no idea who to contact.
I sat down and then. I'm an X-Files guy.
Twilight zone, Roswell, all those things.
(15:53):
There's only one reporter in the worldthat covers that and does it well.
And that was George Knapp.
George Knapp is a local reporterhere in Las Vegas.
Where for Klas TV.
He cracked area 51.
He did this whole thing with Bob Lazarabout how they found all these things
at the Roswell crash, and they reverseengineered them, which I totally.
(16:13):
I've got books you buyRoswell, everything around here, right?
X-Files, tattoos.
I mean, this is a it's a part of my life.
So I just sat around on October 21st.
I hadgotten the results back on October 15th.
So within that week, I just sat downand I hammered out an email to George.
(16:34):
I found his email addresson Steve's website.
I sent him like 3 or 4 sentences.
You know, this is my name.
The FBI said, well,not the FBI that does a paternity test
said, I am not this kidnaped childthat the FBI said I was.
I want to find the real Paul.
He got back to me in about a half an hour.
(16:59):
I'm sure he did.
I mean,you know, probably with aliens and things.
I am.
I mean,unless you thought you were an alien, but.
He. Yeah, he probably.
Looked at that and thought,oh, this is interesting.
I gotta figure thisfigure this out. What's going on
So he responded with one sentence.
I want to meet you.
(17:19):
And that was it.
And that started our relationship.
We started meeting.
And as a matter of fact, we're goingto have George on the show today.
So I'll leave the rest of thatfor when the man himself
actually comes in.
I'm so excited.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, on this episode of The FronczakFiles, we're joined by a man
(17:42):
who's not only one of the most respectedinvestigative reporters in the country,
but someone who played a crucial rolein my own journey.
George Knapp
George is an award winning journalist
known for tackling the storiesmost reporters shy away from, whether it's
government cover ups, unsolved mysteriesor the truth behind the headlines.
(18:03):
You know, I'mfrom KLAS TV here in Las Vegas,
and from his deep dives on coastto coast AM.
But to me, George is a guy who stood by mewhen I discovered
I wasn't really Paul Fronczak.
He helped me tell my story when the worldwas just starting to learn the truth.
He did it with honesty, compassion,
and the kind of fearless reporting he'sknown for.
(18:24):
So today we're turning the mic on the manwho's usually asking the questions.
This is George Knapp,unfiltered, uncensored,
and right here on the Fronczak Files.
Hey, George.
First of all, thank you for taking timeout of your busy schedule
to hang out with us at the Fronczak Files.
So greatly appreciate it.I know you're a busy guy.
You got the show on Netflix.
You're doing Skinwalker Ranch, right?
(18:45):
You got all kinds of stuff going on.
You'reprobably the busiest guy in the business.
you can see, I really cleaned the place upand fancied it up
so I could make a good impression for you,Paul, because we go way back.
I thought I thought the files
were just for our benefit.
(19:05):
I love it.
All right, well, well,thanks for being here, George. So.
So you and I started way back in 2012,so I wanted to see.
Do you remember when I first shot youthat first email?
Well, I can tell you,I remember reading that email,
and it was like a flash,a light in my head.
I get, you know,I get 2 or 3000 emails a day.
(19:26):
And maybe sometimes more.
And just.
It's it takes hours just to readthrough them, let alone respond.
As soon as I read that, it was like a boltof lightning in my head.
This is a story here.
And I called you right away.
I mean, it was, I, I don't do that,you know, I don't do it, but it hit me
like a punch in the face.
This is a big story,and it just reeked of of,
(19:49):
of optimism and, genuine, sincerity.
You did.
You weren't overselling it.
It was a very simple emails, I recall.
It was pretty bare bonesof, you know, bare bones about the story.
And it was an immediate reaction I had.
This is real.I need to jump on this right now.
you know,and I've been a reporter a long time.
More than 40 years.
(20:09):
And there's only a couple of stories
that stand out that just literally sort ofwalked in the door.
One was the UFO, story that got me downthis rabbit hole, and the other was yours.
And it starts with an emailand then a phone call.
And, you know,I was cocky about both of those stories.
I figured, well, you know, I'm a reporter.
I'll get to the bottom of this stuffand figure it out.
And of course, a lot of years later,there's still a lot of,
(20:32):
a lot of mysteries involved inboth of those topics.
Yours?
I don't know if you remember,but I told you.
Yeah, we'll help you out.We'll figure this out.
We'll get to the bottom of it.
And, you know, here it is 13 years later,
still Oh.
It's crazy.
You know, it's funny.
I remember when I first emailed you.
You responded really, really fast.
(20:52):
And you said simply, I want to meet you.
And that that made me so happybecause I was in this.
I was in this rough placewhere I had no idea who I was.
And I thought the only way outwould be to get help from the media.
And to me, media is you.
There's nobody else.
And so when you were so openand willing to meet with me,
(21:12):
that was like a game changer.
And I was so naive back then,I thought, you know what?
I'll meet with George.
We'll solve this in a week or two,and it'll be.
It'll be great.
You know, I get a lot of messages now.
Even more after that Netflix thingthat you mentioned.
A lot of emails.
I mean, the first two hours of my dayare going through emails every day,
but back then,I mean, as soon as I read it,
(21:33):
I knew, boy, this sounds differentfrom anything I've ever heard before.
And then, talking to you, I knew thatthis was going to be a great story.
I didn't know it'd be this big orhave this many different tentacles to it,
but I figured I really was cocky like,you figured we can figure this out,
and, Wow, what a tangled web we went weave.
There.
(21:54):
Man. You know, it's when I first met you.
I mean, first of all, you're a legend.
So to actually be talking with youand then telling you this crazy story.
I remember when I was telling youyou're famous. Kept going.
What? Why?
You're kidding me, right?
then, I mean,it was a strange story to begin with.
We didn't know how strangeit was going to get.
I mean, good gosh,you've written two books about it.
(22:17):
There could be 3 or 4 more.
I mean, all the different anglesit took and twists and turns.
There's never been a story like itother than the UFO mystery,
which has its own drama.
This is, one of my favorite storiesand biggest stories
I've ever covered,and it was so much fun doing it was also,
it was
also troubling at times,you know, to see what you were going
(22:37):
through at the different steps,stages of the, the investigation and,
and how it affected your life.
I mean, changed you forever.
So, George, when you first met me.
What?
How would you sum me upwhen I first said hi to you?
I found you to be credible.
You know, I got a
I have a pretty goodgut terms about people
because I deal with a lot of folkswho make outrageous claims.
(22:59):
And you got to make some judgments alongthe way, even if it's kind of internal.
And I believe you right off the bat,I can tell you weren't trying to pull
a scam.
You weren't, you were sincereabout trying to figure this out.
It was obviously an emotional,emotionally powerful
series of questions that you had.
And, I was impressed by it.
And, you know, you had hairthe same color as mine.
(23:21):
So it was even thoughyou were a young guy back then.
I like you right off the bat.
And I got to meet your your daughter andyour family, and, and I like them, too.
So, I felt good going into it, you know,I felt good about your story.
I didn't think you were tryingto pull some.
It seemed like you're interested ingetting to the bottom of these mysteries.
Plural was sincere.
(23:42):
So, did you think in your mindthat it would be a quick solve?
That we could just maybe do a coupleof FOIA requests and just close it out?
once it got outon the media, on television, people
would come forward with bits and piecesof information and we'd solve it.
Boom, boom like that.
It certainly didn't end up that way.
No. It didn't.
(24:02):
You know, it's funny,I remember talking with you several.
We had several talks because you wantedto plan out the best way to roll this out,
because I remember verbatimwhat you said to me, you said,
be careful what you wish forwhen this hits.
It's going to be a shit storm.
And it was.
And you weren't lying.
You were not lying. bit.
(24:23):
I think you called me at the end of 2012,
and then we didn't go on the airuntil somewhere in early 2013.
But the story,I don't remember the exact date.
And until a day before Paul'sbirthday on April 25th.
I really thought, like,I didn't know a lot about DNA,
genealogy research or anything,but I think, well, that's that's
(24:43):
one place to go.
I really just felt the power of the newsmedia at the time putting that out.
I assumed it was going to be picked upnationally.
I had no idea how big that storywould get all over, all over again,
I should say, you know, the kidnapingwas a gigantic story, international news.
And then we made international news again.
I remember the flurry of, major media interest.
(25:06):
As soon as those stories hit,
we were deluged by by peoplewho saw the same thing that I saw.
Is that how big and how interestingand how strange that story was?
It was, it was a whirlwind one that.
Yeah.
It was.
And I remember how you handled it.
Like you were like. Okay, we need to.
(25:26):
We need to get a DNA test.
Right?
I think you went down to ancestry.
You did a tour of their place because.
Because back in 2012, that'swhen DNA really started just coming out.
So our case was like one of the OG cases.
knew very little about DNA other than thatthe police at the time
were making progress in old cases,cold cases, things like that.
(25:50):
So going to ancestry, meeting those folks,they were very helpful to us.
And they were the big megillahat the time.
You know,they were the only game in town,
as I recall,there was no 23 and me back then.
And, I think there's another DNA labin there.
We figured, well, at a minimum,if the publicity doesn't solve this,
the DNA research will man it got it.
(26:11):
Got pretty complicated,though. In a hurry.
It was crazy. So you.
I think you gave methe first DNA test I ever took.
And I rememberit took so long to get any results.
Remember back then.
Now they have it downto, like, a couple of weeks, I think.
But it was. It was a long time.
I mean, we kept waiting and checking.
did it on camera, too.
Just, you know, and I've used that.
(26:32):
We've used that video and 30 storiessince then.
And.
Yeah, I,I thought it would be quicker than that,
but I had no real experience with it,and it was excruciating.
The wait was just excruciating.
But, you know, you've been waitinga lot longer than that for
I'm still waiting.
Yeah, but I remember when you.
When you and Matt came out of the house.
(26:52):
Matt? Your cameraman. Super great guy.
You guys came out, and Emma was all jazzedabout going shopping at target,
and that's all she wanted to talk about.
And I love watching that piece becauseit takes you right back to that moment.
Doing that initial test.
ball of energy, isn't she?
I don't know if you still that way or not,but we liked her right off the bat.
She was just such a great, great girl.
And, I'm hopeful that she's.
(27:14):
She's still that same person,even though She really is.
She's just 511 now.
Yeah.
It's crazy All right.
So I rememberwhen we first started talking.
I remember after a while you were like,you know, this is great.
You know, we're going to find Paul,but don't you want to know who you are?
(27:34):
And I remember thinking,I haven't even thought about that.
I? You know, when was I born?
Where is my family?What's my ethnic background?
What's my nationality?
You know, what's my birthday?Where are my parents?
Do I have any siblings?
There were so many questionsthat popped up back then
that, to my amazement,that you seemingly hadn't
thought about, you were really thinkingabout Paul, not you.
(27:57):
That's all I wanted to do was find Paul.
You know.
So. So Tracey's actually in Tracey.
Do you have anyany questions about the DNA and stuff?
No questions. But.
Yeah. At the beginning.
In 2012,
the database for ancestry was really smallbecause this was just getting started.
So the people that had tested their DNA,that was available to be matched online.
(28:17):
It was a really small cross-sectionat that time.
And so a lot of peoplethat were sort of the pioneers,
like you were testingand putting their DNA out there I'm.
I'm I'm pretty surethat us just doing that part of the story.
Separate from your story.
Paul, help to promote the idea ofgenealogical research and using ancestry.
(28:39):
And then other services came along.
I'm sure we gave it a little bump.
And now those databases have grownso huge.
If you're a criminal out there,there's a pretty good chance
you're going to get caught.
Whether your personal DNAhas been entered in something or not.
Golden state killer.
You'll recallwhen he was caught through DNA research
that was the firstreally big case of that nature.
(29:01):
And we did a follow up about youbecause it was, you know,
I think it probably got a lot of copsaround the country thinking about
how they could use that toolthat they hadn't thought about before.
And now they're solving all kinds of casesfrom 20, 30, 40 years ago.
Yeah.
At this point, I think the numbers sayabout 20% of the population has tested
on some commercial DNA based platform.
(29:22):
And pretty
Yeah. Yeah. I'm
it's good in terms of solving crimesand solving mysteries like yours.
I guess it's bad if you are a criminal.
Don't want to be caught, you know?
Yeah, it's got a downside for them. So.
So when we started doing,
before we were ready to airthat first segment back in April,
(29:46):
you were like, you got to tell your folksbecause this is going to hit.
It's going to hit big.
And you don't want your parents to see iton TV.
mental process to watch outside.
Watch you struggling with that decision.
But, yeah, I did tell youyou had to let them know.
Because, you know whatI learned from you about, the frauds Acts
(30:06):
was they were just great people,great parents.
And you had the sort of the gnawingsuspicion
that they knew in their hearts somewhere,but really didn't want to admit it,
that their boy that that was reunitedwith their boy, wasn't really their boy.
You could put yourself in their position.
And I know you have over the overthe years now, your your dad passed away.
(30:28):
And I think as I recall, you guys werenot on good terms at the time he passed.
But then you were able to talkto your mom, Dora, and, and open up.
But they shut you out for, like, two yearsafter that news was dropped.
Right?
Yeah.
It was a long time. And it was.
It was brutalbecause I started this whole journey
to find their child, to pay them backfor the great life that they gave me.
(30:50):
I was like proxy, Paul.
And I thought, well, all I want to dois find their kidnaped child
and thank them for giving me a great life.
And they took a completely the wrong way.
They thought I wanted to find betterparents.
you wrote.
Gut wrenching stuff
where you explainthe whole process to them
and what you were trying to dowas very powerful.
And I couldn't imaginethat they would take it the wrong way.
(31:11):
But as I recall, I think they did.
You know, they were just shell shocked,
even though deep in their heartsthey had to know at some point.
I mean, I've seen the family pictures.
It's not exactly a big,strong family resemblance
Yeah.
and you know, youwere you are cut from a different cloth.
(31:33):
It seemed like in terms of your interestsand, you're a wild, crazy hippie,
musician
in their hearts, they had to know.
But I suspectthey didn't want to admit it.
They liked that you were their son.
They they liked the idea.
And loved the ideathat you'd been reunited with them.
And they didn'twant to want to go anywhere else.
(31:55):
And and I recall talking to youafter they got the letter
and you were pretty upset,you know, they were, Yeah. So.
Yeah.
So you and I decided that an emailwould be the best thing.
Because my parents were in their 80s.
I don't think a phone call would have donejustice because a hard of hearing.
They would only hear what they wantto hear and hang up.
So I thought an email,they could process it.
(32:17):
They could read it over and overand really take it in.
You know, some people have criticized mefor doing an email,
but if you think about it, it'sprobably the best medium to use.
So they could actuallygo over and over and over.
My mom calledme and just started screaming at me.
How dare you open up this wound?
You know I hate them.
I hate the media.
Now you have the media all over it.
(32:38):
And then I heard the phone shakeand my dad got on.
He just said, you're an asshole and click.
That was it. And I was, I was stunned.
I mean, I'm just I'm like,I want to find your kidnaped child.
Why, I don't understand.
You know, I couldn't I.
were pure and that you wantedto help their family and your own.
Finding your ownidentity was a secondary concern.
(33:00):
You hadn't even thought about thatwhen we started down this road, and I.
I guess it would probably be predictablethat your parents
would have a very dramatic, reactionto that news.
But open the wound.
That phrase right there suggests to meshe knew.
She knew in her heart.
And it just decided not to confrontthat over the years, she was happy
(33:20):
the way things were.
It was funny, George.
My mom and I just talked the other day,and we were talking about the kidnaping.
Ever since my dad passed away in 2017,she's been much more open
about talking about things.
And she had this phrase, and I knowshe must have got it from somebody.
But she said the lawyers and the law,
one of this case closed
(33:43):
and I.
Yeah.
And it's somethingthat I don't think she would have made up.
She heard that,
you know, and it stayed with her.
They had to know.
I mean, there's no, database at the FBI,I think, where they have,
millions and millions of ears
(34:04):
scientific thing.
They had to know it.But I, I almost applaud them.
You know, I applaud them for that decisionand that it gave you a home.
It was it took the pain awayfrom your parents and to mystery solved.
Let's see where it goes.
And it went to a good place.
Then later, you know, as we start
working on the story,the FBI was not cooperative at all.
(34:27):
You know, they almost reluctantlysaid they were reopening the case.
And then when they finally solvedpart of it,
you know,they kind of bragged about it. Yeah.
We reopenedthis case, and boy, wasn't working hard.
They were not cooperative.
They were did not share information.
I don't think they workedvery hard at all.
You're the guy that did the hard, hardlabor in tracking down these clues.
(34:50):
And then they took creditfor solving basically what you solved.
Well, remember when
they sent the two agents to my houseto get a DNA sample?
One FBI agent was talking abouther retirement, and in a couple of days.
And the other one had zerocold case experience at all.
So they were clearly sent therejust to appease me.
(35:10):
And I think also to shut usout of any FOIA requests
because an open case,you can't get the access right.
they were, sending their bestand brightest to work on this.
Or somebody who experienced insomething like this.
They were they were sending some agentsso that they can tell national media
who were asking a lot of questions,then, yeah, we're working on it.
We're doing our best,you know, and get off our butts.
(35:33):
I think that was just a cover there,but kind of a thing.
You know, which is which is too bad.
And they.
Yeah, they were actually,I think, in a lot of ways, an impediment
to you finding out truthand the various tentacles
of this story, which is sad to say,I work with the FBI a lot.
I admire them,you know, they they've been so courageous
in so many different ways
(35:54):
and stories that I've been involvedwith mob stuff, things like that.
But this was not theirfinest moment by any means.
I agree totally.
And it's because of you.
Not only from the TV and mediadoing other your segments with you, but
also doing a coast to coast Am radio showthat we were able to team up with C.C.
Moore, who was thewho is still the top genealogist
(36:16):
in our country.
Shared our land. Coast.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I thought that was that was amazingbecause that you're your audience there.
I mean, remember
we were getting people of talkingabout dowsing rods, remote viewing.
I mean, all kinds of opened upa whole new world for me.
open to all of it. Yeah, sure. What?
What works?
You know,I didn't have a lot of faith that dowsing
(36:38):
rods were going to solve it,but it was, you know, after it became
sort of frustrating, you know, thatthere wasn't more progress after
I had received so much attentionright off the bat.
I, you know, I kind of knew it was goingto be picked up by other media.
The Chicago media were all over it,and then the network folks came
calling, knocking on your door.
There were people calling you BarbaraWalters and others driving you crazy.
(37:02):
Yeah.
on your door, calling youall hours of the day, trying to
to to land the big frantic interview.
It was a wild time all over again.
And the good thing about thatwas it allowed us to start getting tips.
You started the Facebook page.Who was Paul Fronczak?
I remember, I remember startingthat was like five people on there.
And all of a suddenit was like a thousand.
And then,you know, it kept growing and growing.
(37:24):
Now it's like 25,000 people on their.
people to drop cluesif they had any information,
got a lot of leads,and almost all of them were false leads.
But it was encouragingthat people took an interest in the case.
And then suddenly you have, little DNAsleuths all over the country
trying to find, your backgroundand trying to find baby Paul.
(37:45):
It was an astonishing thing to seeas it unfolded.
It got so big, so fast.
I knew it was going to get big.
It's an an intoxicating story.
How could it not? But. Wow.
It surprised me even how how quicklyit spread and how far it went.
It was international news all over again,just as the the kidnaping was.
Yeah.
And so, because of you, you know, that'sthe first story you did was was perfect.
(38:09):
And we kept doing segments.
And, you know.
a great story I think somebody it reallyhas to be a bonehead to mess that up.
So it was
Well, I'm glad, I'm glad.
I'm glad I went to you.That's all I can say.
And then, George, the flip side of this,
not only do we have peoplelike sending in tips and information,
but I didn't realize the huge population,people who have no idea who they are.
(38:33):
And so the story was inspiring themto start their own journeys.
And that's.
accomplishment for you.
It's a credible that you stuck with itat all the various times
you could have just. Okay, fine.
I don't need to know more.
And, I recall, as you would share with me, bits
and pieces,I was not able to work this angle forever.
And, because I had other stories.
(38:54):
You kept working, though,
and it seemed like every avenue,every alley you went down was pain,
I have to applaud you for sticking with itbecause it
it would have ripped me apart if I had togo through even a fraction of that.
And I rememberit was like a roller coaster.
Like we wouldn't hear anything for weeks.
Like I had.
No, I had zeroDNA matches on those up on the DNA sites.
(39:16):
And whenever something would happen.
And I'd call you George. Oh, my God,check this out. Right.
Or you'd hear somethingor you'd send something over to me, and
it was just like it was those little,those little good days
that really overrode all the bad oneswhere nothing was happening.
so I had never met her.
You were telling meabout working with her, and she was great.
We. You allowed us to do an interviewwith her
(39:37):
at one point when she had madesome discoveries via DNA.
I think it's 23. And me.Is that what she was working with
Yeah.
was great on camera. She's very credible.
Knew her stuff.
That that was a turning pointfor us, too.
It revived the story all over again.
And suddenly the Paul Fronczak,who is Paul Fronczak website?
Lights up like a Christmas treeall over again.
(39:59):
And people are pouringlittle tidbits in there and and there.
The public interest in your casewas reignited all over.
She was great though, and was key.I don't know.
You do still stay in touch with her.
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. She up.
She was on DatelineI think I was Dateline just last night.
No, no. About.
So she's, she helped solve another case.
(40:21):
Yeah.
She works she works with a companycalled Parabon now.
And they,they're solving cases all over the place.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She's, she's on fire with DNA, and,
it was it was a whole new thing for usbecause she was just starting out.
She had her team of soccer moms,
and they were just doing this for free,helping people.
And all of a sudden, it's like,as ancestry grew in 23, me grew.
(40:44):
Then they started growingand started getting more work
because people started realizing,I need to find out who I am, you know?
And then the cops got involved.Like you said,
they wanted to solve all these cases,you know, all these old cases.
So. So I hope everythingthat we've done together.
What what are your takeaways?
That that things that you thinkback and go, I wish would have
what would have done it differentlyor I'm glad that we did this.
(41:11):
able to work on it full time.
I think, you know,because I had other stories
that were going on in other,other projects as well.
I put a lot of time into it, Mattand I, and, if I could have worked on it,
full time, as you were, I, I thinkwe could have made progress quicker.
But reality is what it is, you know,and I just
(41:31):
what stands out of my memoryis just first hearing from you.
This jaw dropping story
that comes out of the sky that I knewright away was going to be awesome.
Then meeting you and your family in personand being overwhelmingly impressed
with all three of you,and then starting the process.
You know, I learned so much about DNAand how law enforcement
could use it, how I could benefitso many people.
(41:54):
I had,I knew it was going to be a big media,
event thatthere would be a lot of competition
from networks and newspapersand things of that sort for access to you.
And it would that you're going to haveto, like, hide in your home for a while.
Because of media power on the doorand calling,
and then just each step of the way,
(42:14):
You know, it's been an exhilarating,procedure all through,
and, and,and a heck of a journey that I think,
you know, when you set out, you're tryingto solve a mystery for your parents.
Secondary concern is finding outwho you are.
Tertiary concernthat you had no idea would
develop is helping millionsof other people and alerting them.
(42:35):
To how you can go about findingwho you are.
You know,
you've helped so many peoplealong the way, and we neither of us,
I think, saw that coming.
Yeah.
Even right in the first book,I never planned to write a book,
but people were writing it on the Facebookpage.
You've inspired me to start my journey.You should.
You should write a bookand really help a lot of people.
(42:56):
And that's why we started it.
We had high hopes for that.
I don't know how you feelabout the whole thing now.
You'd watch that a bunch of times.
By the time I got to see it,it was interviewed for it.
And, you know, that that was athat was a big moment, too.
I really thought it would be a featurefilm.
I thought it'd be a big screen
theatrical release by now,and I think maybe it still should be.
It's a heck of a story.
(43:16):
The problem would be cramming itall into one movie.
No one would believe it's true.
Yeah.
It's.
And. Yeah. 98 minutes.
You can't do it justice.
a screenwriter.
You couldn't write this stuffand make it up, people.
God, I can't, I can't,I don't believe that
(43:36):
ends and pain
and misery and jubilationat different points.
It's it's amazing.
Yeah.
I have to agree with you, George.
It's pretty cool story.
So it's.
There's there's still.
Might be George.
been, It's been a heck of a journey.
(43:58):
I'm so gladthat you sent that message to me.
And I was the guy that got the story.
Because he kind of goton a whole different directions.
And, Yeah, it's
one of the great stories of my lifeand my mental list of, top ten.
That's right there in the topfive for sure.
I mean, it's, it was a heck of a journey,and it's not over yet.
Maybe there's
(44:19):
I hope so.
and George.I want to thank you for making that.
It could have been a really,really rough journey, but you made it fun
and exciting.
And we were always tryingto find different angles.
year experiences.
You know,you can't get your hopes up too much
because some foyer requests I had made,I don't get,
get a single page of a filefor 6 or 7 years, I had done Benny Binion.
(44:44):
I did, model.
It's the first foyerrequest for their files.
It took six yearsand seven years to get those files.
And when they came in, it was likea gigantic stack, hundreds of pages.
So, the filing inflatorrequests on yours.
I had no idea where I was going to go.Same thing.
Now we can file another foyer requestand see what happens.
But they are so undermannedand overwhelmed,
(45:06):
and they don't really liketo be all that cooperative with the public
or the press in the first place,so it's worth trying.
I might not be around by the
I hope we're both around.
George.
Hey, George.
So, any projects projectyou'd like to promote right now?
What are you working on?
(45:26):
What's next for you?
Oh, I can't wait. Now.
You know, we.
When I signed on to that,
it's not a lot of money, a factI probably made, like, $5 an hour.
Maybe if you figure it all out.
It was.
It was the attractionof a global platform.
(45:47):
You know,the idea of covering the UFO topic,
and people would see it all over the worldthat that's what I was going for
is to present credible informationto the largest possible audience.
And they had told me, I asked, well,how long is this going to take?
And they said, well, maybe30 days of shooting took 14 months, you
Oh. well as I used to.
(46:10):
So it's a lot of sloggingthrough airports.
We went to, a couple of places in Mexico.
We went to several places in Brazil.
I think we were in 23 or 24 states,a lot of travel
over a long period of time, talk toso many people, got great interviews
and and some of the best onesnever made it into the series.
You know, it comes outit came out in November of last year
(46:33):
and it was immediately in the top ten.
And then it was in the top five programsand in the world
it was translated into 124 languages, Wow.
that.
And then after it breaks,I start getting bombarded
with Instagram,email, text, tweets, phone calls.
(46:54):
It was overwhelming.
And but they I think they've decidedthey haven't made an announcement.
I don't think there'sgoing to be a season two.
And I don't think I could
handle a season twoand not have that, that kind of travel.
So that's kind of sad.
I'm still working at KLAS.
I tried to retire,I think at the end of 2019,
(47:14):
didn't go well.
I went home for two monthsand my wife on,
you know, her a Paul, and she was ready to
Hahaha!
Okay. You're leaving.
We're going to leave your office here.
We're just going to close the door
and just leave it therein case you change your mind.
They knew, you know,you could keep your email,
(47:36):
your address,your phone number, your office.
They knew I'd come back in as two months.
It took me, And now I have an arrangement.
I don't work every day.
But they gave me the freedom to work onwhatever story I want, whenever I want.
They'd like meto be a regular contributor.
And I have been, But basically, whatever
I pitch them, they're good with it,which is a pretty good job to have.
(47:59):
I'm still the chiefinvestigative reporter.
The other two,reporters, a three reporters are a team.
They do the heavy lifting,and I get the credit for it, you
That's great, though, I think.
I think they would close downif you ever left.
George.
do coast to coast.
I've cut back on the number of appearancesper month.
It just, you know, it's a late night showcalling you.
(48:22):
You've been on therea couple of times, and, you know,
look, after you've been on theretill two in the morning,
that Monday morning, the next day, you'renot really all that productive, you know.
And, so I've cut back on that, doing a podcast
with Jeremy Corbell called weaponized,where we do almost exclusively UFO stuff.
Well, we we've kick some butt.
We've had some really good witnesses therethat, later get called before
(48:45):
Congress break some big stories, reveal,leaked videos and things of that sort.
So I'm busy, you know,I've got I'm working on them.
I'm working on a kind of a memoir.
Ooh! Yeah.
in thatwhen I get around to actually writing it.
I've outlined it,
and I'm hoping that, I can settle downand, and focus on that for a while.
(49:09):
But there's other oneother project in there
that's looming that I can't talk about.
And, I'll tell
I can't wait to hear it.
George, can I canI give you a quick coast to coast story?
The first time you had me on the show,
I think it was from, like, ten at nighttill two in the morning.
And Emma and Michelle were sleeping,of course.
So I remember it was really hot out.
(49:30):
And I sat in the car in the garageand it was my first time
doing a nighttime radio show,so I didn't know what to expect.
You know, I mean, I just
I trusted you and I knew that it'sgoing to be a cool show, you know, it was,
you know, telling my story and then takinglive questions from the audience.
I remember sitting in my carand just a pool of sweat,
and that was the fastestfour hours of my life.
(49:51):
It just went by so fast and it was done.
I felt so exhilarated.It's like I wanted to go running,
like I couldn'tjust go going out and go to bed.
It was I was like so jazzed.
And that was a great experience.
And I was lucky enough to do,I think, 2 or 3 more episodes with you.
Yeah, it was so
much fun George, I can'tthank you enough for being on the show.
(50:11):
It's, It's an honor to to knowyou and let alone get to work
with you and to accomplish everythingthat we did accomplish together.
And I still thinkwe have more unfinished business.
We get together,have a have a bite and, talk it over.
I file some foyer requests,going to figure out what we're asking for.
Might take a while.
I put it in both of our names so that ifI'm not around, it'll come to you as well.
(50:33):
The answer whenever it does.
And then we should kick aroundwhat we can cover on coast
Sounds great. George.
Thank you so much, Tracey.
I'm sorryI monopolize the whole conversation.
Yeah.
(50:59):
Thank you.
George.
So the report
with George airs on April 25th, 2013.
What happens immediately after that story
You know, Tracey,
when I tell you that things were crazy,
I don't think you can really fathomhow crazy they were.
(51:21):
That story aired.
And like I said, George told me.
Be careful what you wish forwhen this hits.
It's going to be a shit storm.
The next day,my phone was going off like crazy.
It was. It was running.
Every news outlet was picking it up.
And then from thereit was going to major networks.
And then I was getting callsfrom Matt Lauer.
(51:42):
We have a jet ready for you.
I was getting calls from Anderson Cooperis getting calls from all the networks.
And all I keptthinking was, I just want to find Paul.
You know, that's.I just want to find Paul.
I went to work.
I came back,there were reporters outside my house.
So I kept driving around the blocktill he kind of dispersed.
Because I knewMichelle would not want that,
(52:04):
that that's not the directionshe wanted to go in.
So it was it was absolutely crazy, like,just think about I think about my parents
when they had reporters in their backyardand everything they went through.
That's what I was going through.
But I was excited because every phone callthat I got, every letter,
every every email to me was a chance
(52:26):
to find the real Paul.
So it was exciting in a good way.
Like I was using them asthe media was a good thing for me.
And I wanted to cast the widestnet possible because I figured
the more eyes on this, the better chancewe have to find the real Paul.
So ifyou want to find out what happens next,
make sure you tune infor the next episode.
(52:50):
The project files is createdand hosted by Paul
Jack Fronczak, co-hosted by me, TraceyHastings.
edited by Gavin Boughner.
Lead genetic genealogist Emily Ripper.
Lead historical researcherColleen Newhart.
Social media manager Amy Morris.
original theme music written and producedby Paul Jack Grant and Rick Holland.
(53:13):
Thank you for joining us on the journey.
And please remember to subscribe.
Welcome back to the Fronczak Files.
I'm your host, Paul Fronczak.
(00:25):
And I'm your. Co-host, Tracey Hastings.
Hey, Tracey.
Here we go again.
Ready to dig into this journey?
I can't believe it.
It's crazy.
So if you were listeningand following along on this journey,
then you know exactly where we are.
If you haven't, stop, go back to episodeone and bring it back to where we are now.
(00:48):
Because you can't miss anythingon this journey.
So we last left off.
I was at a CVS drugstorebuying an identity gene paternity kit.
I finally decided, hopefully,to ask my parents
to do a DNA test with meto see if I was actually of Fronczak.
So, Tracey set the scene where we are.
(01:09):
Well, this is 2012. So.
Technology has come a long waysince the kidnaping and the recovery.
And this is sort of the definitive.
Way to figure out who you are.
And I think people were starting to.
Think about that.
At that time when these thingswere becoming available over the counter.
And it wasn't exorbitantly expensive.
(01:29):
Either, to have it. Done.
And so. You, I'm sure, were one of many.
Who tried.
Paternity test on the shelf and thought,
Let me see if this works.
Yeah.
Because, you know, before that, Michelleand I, my wife
at the time, decided that
maybe if we get some hair samplesfrom my parents, we could do a DNA test,
(01:50):
because, believe it or not,this has been haunting me my whole life.
Right.
But it wasn't until, like, the lastmaybe 15 years or so that we started
actually realizing that maybe we couldn'tget a test done that was affordable.
So we joked about my parents,
who go to church on Sundayswhen they came out and visited us,
so we'd get a Ziploc bagand get the hairs off their pillows.
I was like, this is great.
(02:10):
I could send this in, right?
And I'm like,who am I going to send it to?
Because back then you had to be a criminalor something in order to have your DNA
checked, right?
Right, right.
So I, you know,we kind of scrapped that idea.
I think I still have that bag of old hairlaying around somewhere.
(02:32):
But then when I saw the CVSidentifying kit, I thought, this is it.
I can actually maybe get an answer now.
So it was a big step, but it was it waseverything was leading up to that moment.
And you know, people don't like okay,if you heard my story on another podcast.
They just they brush over thisand they go right into the actual results
and all that stuff.
But what you don't think aboutis what you're actually thinking about.
(02:53):
And I've met a lot of people along thisjourney who have no idea who they are,
and they're scared to deathto take that first step,
you know, to to start that journey,to find out who they actually are.
It's not easy.
Even if you think in your mindthat this is exactly what I want to do.
It's easy. I'm just going to do it.
There are so many factors, so many humanfactors involved with that, right?
(03:14):
How are people people feeling?
How is your family going to take it?
How are you going to take it?
You know, a lot of people end upneeding therapy and stuff like that,
and I don't think I do at this point.But you never know.
Things could change.
But anyway, so I
decided a long time agothat I was going to find a way
to find out if I was truly Pauland this test was going to do it.
(03:35):
So I bought it, brought it home,put it in the in the cabinet,
and then it sat there.
My parents came out a few more timessince then and I thought,
I've got, I've got, I've got to do this,I've got to get them to take this test.
But how do you do it?Your parents love you. You love them.
You never talk about the kidnaping. It'svery upsetting.
It was a tragedy that was never solved.
(03:57):
So they came out in Julyand they wanted to see Emma.
So we're hanging out.
They were out probably for a week,
and I had that kid just sitting in my
in the closet in the bathroom,and I thought, I've got to do this right.
But, you know, days go by, you'rehaving fun, you know, everything's great.
And the last thing you want to dois spring something like that on them.
(04:18):
So that was about an hour beforeI was going to take them to the airport.
And I thought, this is it.
If I don't do it now, I don't know whenI'm going to have the chance to do this.
So we're all sitting around a table
and as Michelle describes it,it was like I was going to order a pizza.
It was that that flew in.
I just asked.
(04:41):
Yeah.
I, you know, sitting around,my dad was doing something.
My mom was in the kitchen.
I said, hey, mom, did you ever reallywonder if I was your child?
I just put it out there, you know?
And I think I got her so off guard.
She's like, yeah, you know, wewe thought about it.
I said, well,what if we had a way to find out for sure
if I'm really Paul would you do it?
(05:02):
And she's like, yeah, yeah, probably.
So I ran to the closet.
I got that identifying kit.
I put it on the kitchen table, and my dad,
I don't think he knewwhat the hell was happening.
And I would pop it open, these cats,and the next thing you know,
they're swabbing away,and I'm sealing it up.
And in my mind,I was thinking, this is it.
I was taken back to the
(05:23):
crawl space and the big score,looking for the Christmas presents,
I guess, was the big scoreafter all this time.
We're going to find out.
years later.
You're in this moment of.
I'm gonna find out.
Yeah, I mean, we're right there.
This is. We're on the cusp, right?
We're going to get an answer.
I wasn't even thinking about the outcome.
(05:43):
I just I just wanted to get that kit.
I wanted to get it sealed up, and and,you know, mail it off.
Yeah.
Which I don't think I would have because,I mean, I was I've been thinking
about that for a long time,but still you never know, right.
So we sealed it up.
I put it on my desk,and I was just elated.
I was so happy. I was walking on clouds.
(06:05):
My parents didn't say a word,and I had to take them to the airport.
It was only about a 15 20 minute drive,but it felt like it took two weeks.
They didn't say a word.
It was just a choir, a very quiet ride.
I get them to the airport.
They're getting out.
We hug and say goodbye and everything.
But it was.
It was like the kind of goodbyewhere it's like, this is a final goodbye.
(06:28):
Like we're never gonnatalk to you again. That's.
Yeah,
right.
I kept, you know,I was trying to make it light, you know?
But inside I was like, this is awesome.
They go back to Chicago.
I go back home. I'm just.I'm happy. Right?
I'm, you know, Whistlin Dixieat this point, whatever that means.
(06:51):
And I get a phone call about four hourslater.
I'm like, oh, it's just my parents.
They called.
My mom said,we don't want you to mail that in.
You're our son.
We don't want to know the answer.
Just drop it.
I'm like,I okay, let me let me think about it.
(07:12):
Whatever I said in the moment,because I didn't want to upset them.
We said goodbye
and we hung up, and that was it.
I mean, in my mind,I was going to mail that thing off.
Michelle had a different plan.
She was like,you have to honor your parent's wishes.
You can't.
You can't mail that in, you know,just forget about it.
You know, you're Paul.
(07:32):
You're my husband. You're my dad.
Just. Just let it go.
And so I put it in my desk drawer,
and it sat there for about a week,maybe even two weeks.
I passed that desk 100 times a day.
And I kept thinking,I want to get an answer.
I don't want to piss off my parents.
Right. So you're wrestling with that?
(07:53):
Finally, I'm getting ready to go to work.
One morning.
I just grabbed it.
I walked across the street to the mailbox.
I said, you know what?
I've got to do this.
I've come too far. I need an answer.
And I go to put it in the mailbox
and sure as shit,it gets stuck halfway in.
I'm like.
of those blue. Freestanding oneswith. The.
(08:14):
With the handle Yeah, yeah.
It was like the universegiving me a final test, you know?
Are you sure you want to do this?
If you want to do it,you're going to have to work for it.
You're going to have to beatthis box into that mailbox.
At. You know, the funny thing,
I think I looked at the sky and said,what the fuck, you know?
(08:35):
So I just I looked at the mailboxand I just punched it in
and I heard it go clunk to the bottom.
I think I stood there for a minutelooking at that mailbox going, there's
no turning back. This is it.
I'm finally going to get the answer.
After all these years,after all this time, right?
And, said this was the summer.
This is in Yeah, it was in July.
(08:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Here's the crazy part, right?
It. Look, thinking back.
It felt like it was only weeks,
I actually didn't get the results backuntil October
15th, 2012.
It took that long because,you know, nowadays, if ancestry was taken,
(09:16):
what is that?
4 or 5 months to get your stuff back.
Yeah.
They wouldn't have any customers.
Right. It'd be like,no, we got to close down.
We're taking six months to get results.
Yeah, I took that long.
And the way I got the results were
crazy.
Do you want to know how I got them?
(09:37):
So I was at work at the Art Institute
at my desk, and my phone rangmy cell phone, so I answered it.
It was a guy's voice.
He said, is this Paul Fronczak?
And I said yes.
He asked mea couple of security questions.
He said, this is so-and-so with identitygene.
We have your results.
I said, okay.
And he said, distinct.
(09:59):
I was excited.
I mean, I was I've been waiting. How long for this now?
My God.
Years, right.
So I'm finally going to get the results.
He said there's no remote possibility
that you're the childof Chester and Dora Fronczak.
And even though I knew
it, I knew it since I was a young kid.
(10:20):
All of a sudden, you hear it
and you know it's real.
And there's no turning back.
I felt
you can't unhear it.
And all of a sudden,
my life just flashed before my eyes.
Everything I thought I knew about myself,it just vanished.
Right. The first thing you think of is.
How old am I?
(10:41):
Am I really this old?
My second thought
was that was I really polish?
I mean, I never really felt polish.
No. I'm kidding.
But, I mean, it's like you knew somethingabout all these things, right?
And then the most thing I mean wasI was I had Taurus.
I had zero Taurus compatibility things.
I mean, I'm I'm not a Taurus.
(11:03):
Not at all.
I mean, any horoscope specialistwould have told me that years ago
I could have saved the money and it dented, you know, just your horoscope ologist.
Right, right.
So there it was.
I finally got the answer that I knew,but I just wasn't ready for, I guess.
I hung up the phone.
(11:23):
I just sat at my desk in shock.
After a couple minutes, I called Michelleand I said, I don't know what to do.
I don't know who I am.
I know nothing about my life.
Everything that everyone elsetakes for granted,
I don't have that.
I don't have anything right now.
And she took.
(11:44):
didn't have, an age. Who?
You didn't have an ethnicity.
You didn't have. Parents.
Do I.
Have siblings?
Do who? Yeah. No information
And the real reason I started that,if we think back,
is that I wanted to get a medical historyon myself for my daughter.
Was I being an authentic father to her?
(12:04):
Yeah.
So Michelle took the opposite approachcompletely.
She's like, you know exactly who you are.
You're Paul Fronczak.
You're my husband.
You're Emma's dad.
That.
That's all you need to know.
That didn't help me at all.
(12:24):
to a very complicated question.
And I think that happens to people.
When they find themselves in.
Similar situationsto you, the people around them.
They sort of just want to.
They don't want to look at it.They don't want to deal with it.
So they just tell you it's okay.You don't.
It doesn't matter.
None of that matters to us. You.
We know who you are. You know who you are.
But it matters to you.
(12:44):
And that's what really counts.
The only thing that we have authenticallyin our lives is our identity.
That's it.
A wolf can leave its pack for yearsand come back to that pack.
And they know each other.
They're alwayswelcome back into that pack.
We as humans are.
We're the same, right?
I mean, wewe have an identity and that's it.
(13:05):
And when that's taken away,you have nothing in.
with any.
If you identify said Polish. Irish.
French.
Is. That really. My. History?
Is that really where. I come from?
Right down to the core of who you are as.
A human being?
So I finish out my dayat work, and I went home.
(13:26):
And, of course, Michelle and Ihad a long conversation about everything.
Yeah, it was, it wasn't, wasn't one of the better conversations
because I knew in my mindalready what I had to do.
The only thought I had was,
I want to find the real Paul.
My parents were amazing people.
They raised me.They gave me this wonderful life,
(13:49):
and they had
this tragedy happen to themthat was never solved.
So how can I repay them?
I know I can find their kidnaped child,
and that's the only thought I had.
So I had the results.
I think they came in on a Saturday.
(14:09):
I mean, I know no,they came in during the week, but then I,
I was the weekend and we weresitting around thinking about what to do.
How can I solve this?
I'm just. I'm just the guy and one guy.
I don't have a team.I don't have specialists.
DNA was just getting started.
Then back in 2012,it wasn't this craze that is now.
(14:29):
Everyone'sgetting DNA tested and everything.
So I thought,there's only one possible thing I can do.
I can use the one medium that my parentshated with all their hearts.
The news
I had to go to the news because how else
can I casta wide net to try to bring in clues?
(14:50):
Tips?
Find the answer and find the real Paul.
That's all. That's all I wanted to do.
So I remember it was this.
yourself in a situationwhere you're probably pushing your parents
into a pretty uncomfortable position hereWell,
I still haven't even told themI got the results back.
(15:10):
you're thinking. About what.
You're going to. Do.
And then,
you know, you've mentioned several timesI was thinking about my parents and the.
The. Fearand the hate that they had for the media.
That their exposure.
When the baby was kidnaped
that could drag them, you know,drag them right back into it again.
And you were. Very aware of that.
But I looked at it on the flip side.
I'm like, who else can get the word out
(15:31):
to get the the national attention
that we need in orderto try to find this kidnaped child?
I thought it was easy.
You know, I thought it's a slam dunk.
But who to contact?
I had no idea who to contact.
I sat down and then. I'm an X-Files guy.
Twilight zone, Roswell, all those things.
(15:53):
There's only one reporter in the worldthat covers that and does it well.
And that was George Knapp.
George Knapp is a local reporterhere in Las Vegas.
Where for Klas TV.
He cracked area 51.
He did this whole thing with Bob Lazarabout how they found all these things
at the Roswell crash, and they reverseengineered them, which I totally.
(16:13):
I've got books you buyRoswell, everything around here, right?
X-Files, tattoos.
I mean, this is a it's a part of my life.
So I just sat around on October 21st.
I hadgotten the results back on October 15th.
So within that week, I just sat downand I hammered out an email to George.
(16:34):
I found his email addresson Steve's website.
I sent him like 3 or 4 sentences.
You know, this is my name.
The FBI said, well,not the FBI that does a paternity test
said, I am not this kidnaped childthat the FBI said I was.
I want to find the real Paul.
He got back to me in about a half an hour.
(16:59):
I'm sure he did.
I mean,you know, probably with aliens and things.
I am.
I mean,unless you thought you were an alien, but.
He. Yeah, he probably.
Looked at that and thought,oh, this is interesting.
I gotta figure thisfigure this out. What's going on
So he responded with one sentence.
I want to meet you.
(17:19):
And that was it.
And that started our relationship.
We started meeting.
And as a matter of fact, we're goingto have George on the show today.
So I'll leave the rest of thatfor when the man himself
actually comes in.
I'm so excited.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, on this episode of The FronczakFiles, we're joined by a man
(17:42):
who's not only one of the most respectedinvestigative reporters in the country,
but someone who played a crucial rolein my own journey.
George Knapp
George is an award winning journalist
known for tackling the storiesmost reporters shy away from, whether it's
government cover ups, unsolved mysteriesor the truth behind the headlines.
(18:03):
You know, I'mfrom KLAS TV here in Las Vegas,
and from his deep dives on coastto coast AM.
But to me, George is a guy who stood by mewhen I discovered
I wasn't really Paul Fronczak.
He helped me tell my story when the worldwas just starting to learn the truth.
He did it with honesty, compassion,
and the kind of fearless reporting he'sknown for.
(18:24):
So today we're turning the mic on the manwho's usually asking the questions.
This is George Knapp,unfiltered, uncensored,
and right here on the Fronczak Files.
Hey, George.
First of all, thank you for taking timeout of your busy schedule
to hang out with us at the Fronczak Files.
So greatly appreciate it.I know you're a busy guy.
You got the show on Netflix.
You're doing Skinwalker Ranch, right?
(18:45):
You got all kinds of stuff going on.
You'reprobably the busiest guy in the business.
you can see, I really cleaned the place upand fancied it up
so I could make a good impression for you,Paul, because we go way back.
I thought I thought the files
were just for our benefit.
(19:05):
I love it.
All right, well, well,thanks for being here, George. So.
So you and I started way back in 2012,so I wanted to see.
Do you remember when I first shot youthat first email?
Well, I can tell you,I remember reading that email,
and it was like a flash,a light in my head.
I get, you know,I get 2 or 3000 emails a day.
(19:26):
And maybe sometimes more.
And just.
It's it takes hours just to readthrough them, let alone respond.
As soon as I read that, it was like a boltof lightning in my head.
This is a story here.
And I called you right away.
I mean, it was, I, I don't do that,you know, I don't do it, but it hit me
like a punch in the face.
This is a big story,and it just reeked of of,
(19:49):
of optimism and, genuine, sincerity.
You did.
You weren't overselling it.
It was a very simple emails, I recall.
It was pretty bare bonesof, you know, bare bones about the story.
And it was an immediate reaction I had.
This is real.I need to jump on this right now.
you know,and I've been a reporter a long time.
More than 40 years.
(20:09):
And there's only a couple of stories
that stand out that just literally sort ofwalked in the door.
One was the UFO, story that got me downthis rabbit hole, and the other was yours.
And it starts with an emailand then a phone call.
And, you know,I was cocky about both of those stories.
I figured, well, you know, I'm a reporter.
I'll get to the bottom of this stuffand figure it out.
And of course, a lot of years later,there's still a lot of,
(20:32):
a lot of mysteries involved inboth of those topics.
Yours?
I don't know if you remember,but I told you.
Yeah, we'll help you out.We'll figure this out.
We'll get to the bottom of it.
And, you know, here it is 13 years later,
still Oh.
It's crazy.
You know, it's funny.
I remember when I first emailed you.
You responded really, really fast.
(20:52):
And you said simply, I want to meet you.
And that that made me so happybecause I was in this.
I was in this rough placewhere I had no idea who I was.
And I thought the only way outwould be to get help from the media.
And to me, media is you.
There's nobody else.
And so when you were so openand willing to meet with me,
(21:12):
that was like a game changer.
And I was so naive back then,I thought, you know what?
I'll meet with George.
We'll solve this in a week or two,and it'll be.
It'll be great.
You know, I get a lot of messages now.
Even more after that Netflix thingthat you mentioned.
A lot of emails.
I mean, the first two hours of my dayare going through emails every day,
but back then,I mean, as soon as I read it,
(21:33):
I knew, boy, this sounds differentfrom anything I've ever heard before.
And then, talking to you, I knew thatthis was going to be a great story.
I didn't know it'd be this big orhave this many different tentacles to it,
but I figured I really was cocky like,you figured we can figure this out,
and, Wow, what a tangled web we went weave.
There.
(21:54):
Man. You know, it's when I first met you.
I mean, first of all, you're a legend.
So to actually be talking with youand then telling you this crazy story.
I remember when I was telling youyou're famous. Kept going.
What? Why?
You're kidding me, right?
then, I mean,it was a strange story to begin with.
We didn't know how strangeit was going to get.
I mean, good gosh,you've written two books about it.
(22:17):
There could be 3 or 4 more.
I mean, all the different anglesit took and twists and turns.
There's never been a story like itother than the UFO mystery,
which has its own drama.
This is, one of my favorite storiesand biggest stories
I've ever covered,and it was so much fun doing it was also,
it was
also troubling at times,you know, to see what you were going
(22:37):
through at the different steps,stages of the, the investigation and,
and how it affected your life.
I mean, changed you forever.
So, George, when you first met me.
What?
How would you sum me upwhen I first said hi to you?
I found you to be credible.
You know, I got a
I have a pretty goodgut terms about people
because I deal with a lot of folkswho make outrageous claims.
(22:59):
And you got to make some judgments alongthe way, even if it's kind of internal.
And I believe you right off the bat,I can tell you weren't trying to pull
a scam.
You weren't, you were sincereabout trying to figure this out.
It was obviously an emotional,emotionally powerful
series of questions that you had.
And, I was impressed by it.
And, you know, you had hairthe same color as mine.
(23:21):
So it was even thoughyou were a young guy back then.
I like you right off the bat.
And I got to meet your your daughter andyour family, and, and I like them, too.
So, I felt good going into it, you know,I felt good about your story.
I didn't think you were tryingto pull some.
It seemed like you're interested ingetting to the bottom of these mysteries.
Plural was sincere.
(23:42):
So, did you think in your mindthat it would be a quick solve?
That we could just maybe do a coupleof FOIA requests and just close it out?
once it got outon the media, on television, people
would come forward with bits and piecesof information and we'd solve it.
Boom, boom like that.
It certainly didn't end up that way.
No. It didn't.
(24:02):
You know, it's funny,I remember talking with you several.
We had several talks because you wantedto plan out the best way to roll this out,
because I remember verbatimwhat you said to me, you said,
be careful what you wish forwhen this hits.
It's going to be a shit storm.
And it was.
And you weren't lying.
You were not lying. bit.
(24:23):
I think you called me at the end of 2012,
and then we didn't go on the airuntil somewhere in early 2013.
But the story,I don't remember the exact date.
And until a day before Paul'sbirthday on April 25th.
I really thought, like,I didn't know a lot about DNA,
genealogy research or anything,but I think, well, that's that's
(24:43):
one place to go.
I really just felt the power of the newsmedia at the time putting that out.
I assumed it was going to be picked upnationally.
I had no idea how big that storywould get all over, all over again,
I should say, you know, the kidnapingwas a gigantic story, international news.
And then we made international news again.
I remember the flurry of, major media interest.
(25:06):
As soon as those stories hit,
we were deluged by by peoplewho saw the same thing that I saw.
Is that how big and how interestingand how strange that story was?
It was, it was a whirlwind one that.
Yeah.
It was.
And I remember how you handled it.
Like you were like. Okay, we need to.
(25:26):
We need to get a DNA test.
Right?
I think you went down to ancestry.
You did a tour of their place because.
Because back in 2012, that'swhen DNA really started just coming out.
So our case was like one of the OG cases.
knew very little about DNA other than thatthe police at the time
were making progress in old cases,cold cases, things like that.
(25:50):
So going to ancestry, meeting those folks,they were very helpful to us.
And they were the big megillahat the time.
You know,they were the only game in town,
as I recall,there was no 23 and me back then.
And, I think there's another DNA labin there.
We figured, well, at a minimum,if the publicity doesn't solve this,
the DNA research will man it got it.
(26:11):
Got pretty complicated,though. In a hurry.
It was crazy. So you.
I think you gave methe first DNA test I ever took.
And I rememberit took so long to get any results.
Remember back then.
Now they have it downto, like, a couple of weeks, I think.
But it was. It was a long time.
I mean, we kept waiting and checking.
did it on camera, too.
Just, you know, and I've used that.
(26:32):
We've used that video and 30 storiessince then.
And.
Yeah, I,I thought it would be quicker than that,
but I had no real experience with it,and it was excruciating.
The wait was just excruciating.
But, you know, you've been waitinga lot longer than that for
I'm still waiting.
Yeah, but I remember when you.
When you and Matt came out of the house.
(26:52):
Matt? Your cameraman. Super great guy.
You guys came out, and Emma was all jazzedabout going shopping at target,
and that's all she wanted to talk about.
And I love watching that piece becauseit takes you right back to that moment.
Doing that initial test.
ball of energy, isn't she?
I don't know if you still that way or not,but we liked her right off the bat.
She was just such a great, great girl.
And, I'm hopeful that she's.
(27:14):
She's still that same person,even though She really is.
She's just 511 now.
Yeah.
It's crazy All right.
So I rememberwhen we first started talking.
I remember after a while you were like,you know, this is great.
You know, we're going to find Paul,but don't you want to know who you are?
(27:34):
And I remember thinking,I haven't even thought about that.
I? You know, when was I born?
Where is my family?What's my ethnic background?
What's my nationality?
You know, what's my birthday?Where are my parents?
Do I have any siblings?
There were so many questionsthat popped up back then
that, to my amazement,that you seemingly hadn't
thought about, you were really thinkingabout Paul, not you.
(27:57):
That's all I wanted to do was find Paul.
You know.
So. So Tracey's actually in Tracey.
Do you have anyany questions about the DNA and stuff?
No questions. But.
Yeah. At the beginning.
In 2012,
the database for ancestry was really smallbecause this was just getting started.
So the people that had tested their DNA,that was available to be matched online.
(28:17):
It was a really small cross-sectionat that time.
And so a lot of peoplethat were sort of the pioneers,
like you were testingand putting their DNA out there I'm.
I'm I'm pretty surethat us just doing that part of the story.
Separate from your story.
Paul, help to promote the idea ofgenealogical research and using ancestry.
(28:39):
And then other services came along.
I'm sure we gave it a little bump.
And now those databases have grownso huge.
If you're a criminal out there,there's a pretty good chance
you're going to get caught.
Whether your personal DNAhas been entered in something or not.
Golden state killer.
You'll recallwhen he was caught through DNA research
that was the firstreally big case of that nature.
(29:01):
And we did a follow up about youbecause it was, you know,
I think it probably got a lot of copsaround the country thinking about
how they could use that toolthat they hadn't thought about before.
And now they're solving all kinds of casesfrom 20, 30, 40 years ago.
Yeah.
At this point, I think the numbers sayabout 20% of the population has tested
on some commercial DNA based platform.
(29:22):
And pretty
Yeah. Yeah. I'm
it's good in terms of solving crimesand solving mysteries like yours.
I guess it's bad if you are a criminal.
Don't want to be caught, you know?
Yeah, it's got a downside for them. So.
So when we started doing,
before we were ready to airthat first segment back in April,
(29:46):
you were like, you got to tell your folksbecause this is going to hit.
It's going to hit big.
And you don't want your parents to see iton TV.
mental process to watch outside.
Watch you struggling with that decision.
But, yeah, I did tell youyou had to let them know.
Because, you know whatI learned from you about, the frauds Acts
(30:06):
was they were just great people,great parents.
And you had the sort of the gnawingsuspicion
that they knew in their hearts somewhere,but really didn't want to admit it,
that their boy that that was reunitedwith their boy, wasn't really their boy.
You could put yourself in their position.
And I know you have over the overthe years now, your your dad passed away.
(30:28):
And I think as I recall, you guys werenot on good terms at the time he passed.
But then you were able to talkto your mom, Dora, and, and open up.
But they shut you out for, like, two yearsafter that news was dropped.
Right?
Yeah.
It was a long time. And it was.
It was brutalbecause I started this whole journey
to find their child, to pay them backfor the great life that they gave me.
(30:50):
I was like proxy, Paul.
And I thought, well, all I want to dois find their kidnaped child
and thank them for giving me a great life.
And they took a completely the wrong way.
They thought I wanted to find betterparents.
you wrote.
Gut wrenching stuff
where you explainthe whole process to them
and what you were trying to dowas very powerful.
And I couldn't imaginethat they would take it the wrong way.
(31:11):
But as I recall, I think they did.
You know, they were just shell shocked,
even though deep in their heartsthey had to know at some point.
I mean, I've seen the family pictures.
It's not exactly a big,strong family resemblance
Yeah.
and you know, youwere you are cut from a different cloth.
(31:33):
It seemed like in terms of your interestsand, you're a wild, crazy hippie,
musician
in their hearts, they had to know.
But I suspectthey didn't want to admit it.
They liked that you were their son.
They they liked the idea.
And loved the ideathat you'd been reunited with them.
And they didn'twant to want to go anywhere else.
(31:55):
And and I recall talking to youafter they got the letter
and you were pretty upset,you know, they were, Yeah. So.
Yeah.
So you and I decided that an emailwould be the best thing.
Because my parents were in their 80s.
I don't think a phone call would have donejustice because a hard of hearing.
They would only hear what they wantto hear and hang up.
So I thought an email,they could process it.
(32:17):
They could read it over and overand really take it in.
You know, some people have criticized mefor doing an email,
but if you think about it, it'sprobably the best medium to use.
So they could actuallygo over and over and over.
My mom calledme and just started screaming at me.
How dare you open up this wound?
You know I hate them.
I hate the media.
Now you have the media all over it.
(32:38):
And then I heard the phone shakeand my dad got on.
He just said, you're an asshole and click.
That was it. And I was, I was stunned.
I mean, I'm just I'm like,I want to find your kidnaped child.
Why, I don't understand.
You know, I couldn't I.
were pure and that you wantedto help their family and your own.
Finding your ownidentity was a secondary concern.
(33:00):
You hadn't even thought about thatwhen we started down this road, and I.
I guess it would probably be predictablethat your parents
would have a very dramatic, reactionto that news.
But open the wound.
That phrase right there suggests to meshe knew.
She knew in her heart.
And it just decided not to confrontthat over the years, she was happy
(33:20):
the way things were.
It was funny, George.
My mom and I just talked the other day,and we were talking about the kidnaping.
Ever since my dad passed away in 2017,she's been much more open
about talking about things.
And she had this phrase, and I knowshe must have got it from somebody.
But she said the lawyers and the law,
one of this case closed
(33:43):
and I.
Yeah.
And it's somethingthat I don't think she would have made up.
She heard that,
you know, and it stayed with her.
They had to know.
I mean, there's no, database at the FBI,I think, where they have,
millions and millions of ears
(34:04):
scientific thing.
They had to know it.But I, I almost applaud them.
You know, I applaud them for that decisionand that it gave you a home.
It was it took the pain awayfrom your parents and to mystery solved.
Let's see where it goes.
And it went to a good place.
Then later, you know, as we start
working on the story,the FBI was not cooperative at all.
(34:27):
You know, they almost reluctantlysaid they were reopening the case.
And then when they finally solvedpart of it,
you know,they kind of bragged about it. Yeah.
We reopenedthis case, and boy, wasn't working hard.
They were not cooperative.
They were did not share information.
I don't think they workedvery hard at all.
You're the guy that did the hard, hardlabor in tracking down these clues.
(34:50):
And then they took creditfor solving basically what you solved.
Well, remember when
they sent the two agents to my houseto get a DNA sample?
One FBI agent was talking abouther retirement, and in a couple of days.
And the other one had zerocold case experience at all.
So they were clearly sent therejust to appease me.
(35:10):
And I think also to shut usout of any FOIA requests
because an open case,you can't get the access right.
they were, sending their bestand brightest to work on this.
Or somebody who experienced insomething like this.
They were they were sending some agentsso that they can tell national media
who were asking a lot of questions,then, yeah, we're working on it.
We're doing our best,you know, and get off our butts.
(35:33):
I think that was just a cover there,but kind of a thing.
You know, which is which is too bad.
And they.
Yeah, they were actually,I think, in a lot of ways, an impediment
to you finding out truthand the various tentacles
of this story, which is sad to say,I work with the FBI a lot.
I admire them,you know, they they've been so courageous
in so many different ways
(35:54):
and stories that I've been involvedwith mob stuff, things like that.
But this was not theirfinest moment by any means.
I agree totally.
And it's because of you.
Not only from the TV and mediadoing other your segments with you, but
also doing a coast to coast Am radio showthat we were able to team up with C.C.
Moore, who was thewho is still the top genealogist
(36:16):
in our country.
Shared our land. Coast.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I thought that was that was amazingbecause that you're your audience there.
I mean, remember
we were getting people of talkingabout dowsing rods, remote viewing.
I mean, all kinds of opened upa whole new world for me.
open to all of it. Yeah, sure. What?
What works?
You know,I didn't have a lot of faith that dowsing
(36:38):
rods were going to solve it,but it was, you know, after it became
sort of frustrating, you know, thatthere wasn't more progress after
I had received so much attentionright off the bat.
I, you know, I kind of knew it was goingto be picked up by other media.
The Chicago media were all over it,and then the network folks came
calling, knocking on your door.
There were people calling you BarbaraWalters and others driving you crazy.
(37:02):
Yeah.
on your door, calling youall hours of the day, trying to
to to land the big frantic interview.
It was a wild time all over again.
And the good thing about thatwas it allowed us to start getting tips.
You started the Facebook page.Who was Paul Fronczak?
I remember, I remember startingthat was like five people on there.
And all of a suddenit was like a thousand.
And then,you know, it kept growing and growing.
(37:24):
Now it's like 25,000 people on their.
people to drop cluesif they had any information,
got a lot of leads,and almost all of them were false leads.
But it was encouragingthat people took an interest in the case.
And then suddenly you have, little DNAsleuths all over the country
trying to find, your backgroundand trying to find baby Paul.
(37:45):
It was an astonishing thing to seeas it unfolded.
It got so big, so fast.
I knew it was going to get big.
It's an an intoxicating story.
How could it not? But. Wow.
It surprised me even how how quicklyit spread and how far it went.
It was international news all over again,just as the the kidnaping was.
Yeah.
And so, because of you, you know, that'sthe first story you did was was perfect.
(38:09):
And we kept doing segments.
And, you know.
a great story I think somebody it reallyhas to be a bonehead to mess that up.
So it was
Well, I'm glad, I'm glad.
I'm glad I went to you.That's all I can say.
And then, George, the flip side of this,
not only do we have peoplelike sending in tips and information,
but I didn't realize the huge population,people who have no idea who they are.
(38:33):
And so the story was inspiring themto start their own journeys.
And that's.
accomplishment for you.
It's a credible that you stuck with itat all the various times
you could have just. Okay, fine.
I don't need to know more.
And, I recall, as you would share with me, bits
and pieces,I was not able to work this angle forever.
And, because I had other stories.
(38:54):
You kept working, though,
and it seemed like every avenue,every alley you went down was pain,
I have to applaud you for sticking with itbecause it
it would have ripped me apart if I had togo through even a fraction of that.
And I rememberit was like a roller coaster.
Like we wouldn't hear anything for weeks.
Like I had.
No, I had zeroDNA matches on those up on the DNA sites.
(39:16):
And whenever something would happen.
And I'd call you George. Oh, my God,check this out. Right.
Or you'd hear somethingor you'd send something over to me, and
it was just like it was those little,those little good days
that really overrode all the bad oneswhere nothing was happening.
so I had never met her.
You were telling meabout working with her, and she was great.
We. You allowed us to do an interviewwith her
(39:37):
at one point when she had madesome discoveries via DNA.
I think it's 23. And me.Is that what she was working with
Yeah.
was great on camera. She's very credible.
Knew her stuff.
That that was a turning pointfor us, too.
It revived the story all over again.
And suddenly the Paul Fronczak,who is Paul Fronczak website?
Lights up like a Christmas treeall over again.
(39:59):
And people are pouringlittle tidbits in there and and there.
The public interest in your casewas reignited all over.
She was great though, and was key.I don't know.
You do still stay in touch with her.
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. She up.
She was on DatelineI think I was Dateline just last night.
No, no. About.
So she's, she helped solve another case.
(40:21):
Yeah.
She works she works with a companycalled Parabon now.
And they,they're solving cases all over the place.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She's, she's on fire with DNA, and,
it was it was a whole new thing for usbecause she was just starting out.
She had her team of soccer moms,
and they were just doing this for free,helping people.
And all of a sudden, it's like,as ancestry grew in 23, me grew.
(40:44):
Then they started growingand started getting more work
because people started realizing,I need to find out who I am, you know?
And then the cops got involved.Like you said,
they wanted to solve all these cases,you know, all these old cases.
So. So I hope everythingthat we've done together.
What what are your takeaways?
That that things that you thinkback and go, I wish would have
what would have done it differentlyor I'm glad that we did this.
(41:11):
able to work on it full time.
I think, you know,because I had other stories
that were going on in other,other projects as well.
I put a lot of time into it, Mattand I, and, if I could have worked on it,
full time, as you were, I, I thinkwe could have made progress quicker.
But reality is what it is, you know,and I just
(41:31):
what stands out of my memoryis just first hearing from you.
This jaw dropping story
that comes out of the sky that I knewright away was going to be awesome.
Then meeting you and your family in personand being overwhelmingly impressed
with all three of you,and then starting the process.
You know, I learned so much about DNAand how law enforcement
could use it, how I could benefitso many people.
(41:54):
I had,I knew it was going to be a big media,
event thatthere would be a lot of competition
from networks and newspapersand things of that sort for access to you.
And it would that you're going to haveto, like, hide in your home for a while.
Because of media power on the doorand calling,
and then just each step of the way,
(42:14):
You know, it's been an exhilarating,procedure all through,
and, and,and a heck of a journey that I think,
you know, when you set out, you're tryingto solve a mystery for your parents.
Secondary concern is finding outwho you are.
Tertiary concernthat you had no idea would
develop is helping millionsof other people and alerting them.
(42:35):
To how you can go about findingwho you are.
You know,
you've helped so many peoplealong the way, and we neither of us,
I think, saw that coming.
Yeah.
Even right in the first book,I never planned to write a book,
but people were writing it on the Facebookpage.
You've inspired me to start my journey.You should.
You should write a bookand really help a lot of people.
(42:56):
And that's why we started it.
We had high hopes for that.
I don't know how you feelabout the whole thing now.
You'd watch that a bunch of times.
By the time I got to see it,it was interviewed for it.
And, you know, that that was athat was a big moment, too.
I really thought it would be a featurefilm.
I thought it'd be a big screen
theatrical release by now,and I think maybe it still should be.
It's a heck of a story.
(43:16):
The problem would be cramming itall into one movie.
No one would believe it's true.
Yeah.
It's.
And. Yeah. 98 minutes.
You can't do it justice.
a screenwriter.
You couldn't write this stuffand make it up, people.
God, I can't, I can't,I don't believe that
(43:36):
ends and pain
and misery and jubilationat different points.
It's it's amazing.
Yeah.
I have to agree with you, George.
It's pretty cool story.
So it's.
There's there's still.
Might be George.
been, It's been a heck of a journey.
(43:58):
I'm so gladthat you sent that message to me.
And I was the guy that got the story.
Because he kind of goton a whole different directions.
And, Yeah, it's
one of the great stories of my lifeand my mental list of, top ten.
That's right there in the topfive for sure.
I mean, it's, it was a heck of a journey,and it's not over yet.
Maybe there's
(44:19):
I hope so.
and George.I want to thank you for making that.
It could have been a really,really rough journey, but you made it fun
and exciting.
And we were always tryingto find different angles.
year experiences.
You know,you can't get your hopes up too much
because some foyer requests I had made,I don't get,
get a single page of a filefor 6 or 7 years, I had done Benny Binion.
(44:44):
I did, model.
It's the first foyerrequest for their files.
It took six yearsand seven years to get those files.
And when they came in, it was likea gigantic stack, hundreds of pages.
So, the filing inflatorrequests on yours.
I had no idea where I was going to go.Same thing.
Now we can file another foyer requestand see what happens.
But they are so undermannedand overwhelmed,
(45:06):
and they don't really liketo be all that cooperative with the public
or the press in the first place,so it's worth trying.
I might not be around by the
I hope we're both around.
George.
Hey, George.
So, any projects projectyou'd like to promote right now?
What are you working on?
(45:26):
What's next for you?
Oh, I can't wait. Now.
You know, we.
When I signed on to that,
it's not a lot of money, a factI probably made, like, $5 an hour.
Maybe if you figure it all out.
It was.
It was the attractionof a global platform.
(45:47):
You know,the idea of covering the UFO topic,
and people would see it all over the worldthat that's what I was going for
is to present credible informationto the largest possible audience.
And they had told me, I asked, well,how long is this going to take?
And they said, well, maybe30 days of shooting took 14 months, you
Oh. well as I used to.
(46:10):
So it's a lot of sloggingthrough airports.
We went to, a couple of places in Mexico.
We went to several places in Brazil.
I think we were in 23 or 24 states,a lot of travel
over a long period of time, talk toso many people, got great interviews
and and some of the best onesnever made it into the series.
You know, it comes outit came out in November of last year
(46:33):
and it was immediately in the top ten.
And then it was in the top five programsand in the world
it was translated into 124 languages, Wow.
that.
And then after it breaks,I start getting bombarded
with Instagram,email, text, tweets, phone calls.
(46:54):
It was overwhelming.
And but they I think they've decidedthey haven't made an announcement.
I don't think there'sgoing to be a season two.
And I don't think I could
handle a season twoand not have that, that kind of travel.
So that's kind of sad.
I'm still working at KLAS.
I tried to retire,I think at the end of 2019,
(47:14):
didn't go well.
I went home for two monthsand my wife on,
you know, her a Paul, and she was ready to
Hahaha!
Okay. You're leaving.
We're going to leave your office here.
We're just going to close the door
and just leave it therein case you change your mind.
They knew, you know,you could keep your email,
(47:36):
your address,your phone number, your office.
They knew I'd come back in as two months.
It took me, And now I have an arrangement.
I don't work every day.
But they gave me the freedom to work onwhatever story I want, whenever I want.
They'd like meto be a regular contributor.
And I have been, But basically, whatever
I pitch them, they're good with it,which is a pretty good job to have.
(47:59):
I'm still the chiefinvestigative reporter.
The other two,reporters, a three reporters are a team.
They do the heavy lifting,and I get the credit for it, you
That's great, though, I think.
I think they would close downif you ever left.
George.
do coast to coast.
I've cut back on the number of appearancesper month.
It just, you know, it's a late night showcalling you.
(48:22):
You've been on therea couple of times, and, you know,
look, after you've been on theretill two in the morning,
that Monday morning, the next day, you'renot really all that productive, you know.
And, so I've cut back on that, doing a podcast
with Jeremy Corbell called weaponized,where we do almost exclusively UFO stuff.
Well, we we've kick some butt.
We've had some really good witnesses therethat, later get called before
(48:45):
Congress break some big stories, reveal,leaked videos and things of that sort.
So I'm busy, you know,I've got I'm working on them.
I'm working on a kind of a memoir.
Ooh! Yeah.
in thatwhen I get around to actually writing it.
I've outlined it,
and I'm hoping that, I can settle downand, and focus on that for a while.
(49:09):
But there's other oneother project in there
that's looming that I can't talk about.
And, I'll tell
I can't wait to hear it.
George, can I canI give you a quick coast to coast story?
The first time you had me on the show,
I think it was from, like, ten at nighttill two in the morning.
And Emma and Michelle were sleeping,of course.
So I remember it was really hot out.
(49:30):
And I sat in the car in the garageand it was my first time
doing a nighttime radio show,so I didn't know what to expect.
You know, I mean, I just
I trusted you and I knew that it'sgoing to be a cool show, you know, it was,
you know, telling my story and then takinglive questions from the audience.
I remember sitting in my carand just a pool of sweat,
and that was the fastestfour hours of my life.
(49:51):
It just went by so fast and it was done.
I felt so exhilarated.It's like I wanted to go running,
like I couldn'tjust go going out and go to bed.
It was I was like so jazzed.
And that was a great experience.
And I was lucky enough to do,I think, 2 or 3 more episodes with you.
Yeah, it was so
much fun George, I can'tthank you enough for being on the show.
(50:11):
It's, It's an honor to to knowyou and let alone get to work
with you and to accomplish everythingthat we did accomplish together.
And I still thinkwe have more unfinished business.
We get together,have a have a bite and, talk it over.
I file some foyer requests,going to figure out what we're asking for.
Might take a while.
I put it in both of our names so that ifI'm not around, it'll come to you as well.
(50:33):
The answer whenever it does.
And then we should kick aroundwhat we can cover on coast
Sounds great. George.
Thank you so much, Tracey.
I'm sorryI monopolize the whole conversation.
Yeah.
(50:59):
Thank you.
George.
So the report
with George airs on April 25th, 2013.
What happens immediately after that story
You know, Tracey,
when I tell you that things were crazy,
I don't think you can really fathomhow crazy they were.
(51:21):
That story aired.
And like I said, George told me.
Be careful what you wish forwhen this hits.
It's going to be a shit storm.
The next day,my phone was going off like crazy.
It was. It was running.
Every news outlet was picking it up.
And then from thereit was going to major networks.
And then I was getting callsfrom Matt Lauer.
(51:42):
We have a jet ready for you.
I was getting calls from Anderson Cooperis getting calls from all the networks.
And all I keptthinking was, I just want to find Paul.
You know, that's.I just want to find Paul.
I went to work.
I came back,there were reporters outside my house.
So I kept driving around the blocktill he kind of dispersed.
Because I knewMichelle would not want that,
(52:04):
that that's not the directionshe wanted to go in.
So it was it was absolutely crazy, like,just think about I think about my parents
when they had reporters in their backyardand everything they went through.
That's what I was going through.
But I was excited because every phone callthat I got, every letter,
every every email to me was a chance
(52:26):
to find the real Paul.
So it was exciting in a good way.
Like I was using them asthe media was a good thing for me.
And I wanted to cast the widestnet possible because I figured
the more eyes on this, the better chancewe have to find the real Paul.
So ifyou want to find out what happens next,
make sure you tune infor the next episode.
(52:50):
The project files is createdand hosted by Paul
Jack Fronczak, co-hosted by me, TraceyHastings.
edited by Gavin Boughner.
Lead genetic genealogist Emily Ripper.
Lead historical researcherColleen Newhart.
Social media manager Amy Morris.
original theme music written and producedby Paul Jack Grant and Rick Holland.
(53:13):
Thank you for joining us on the journey.
And please remember to subscribe.
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