"It takes a village - The Return of Coach Joe O'Dwyer on the Functional Tennis Podcast

The return of Joe O'Dwyer to the Function Tennis Podcast marks a significant occasion, as it has been five years since his previous appearance. In this enlightening conversation, O'Dwyer, a seasoned ATP and WTA coach, reflects upon his extensive career on the tour, which began in 1999 and has traversed through various eras of tennis. He recounts his experiences coaching notable players such as Robbie Ginepri and Alexander Stevenson, shedding light on the mental fortitude required to succeed in the highly competitive world of professional tennis. The discussion delves into the often-overlooked realities of life on the tour, emphasizing the psychological challenges and the grind that players endure week after week. O'Dwyer poignantly articulates the importance of mental resilience, echoing the sentiments of fellow coaches regarding the necessity for players to possess unwavering determination to navigate the rigors of professional tennis. This episode serves as an invaluable resource for aspiring players and coaches alike, offering insights into the complexities of coaching at the highest level, and the various pathways that can lead to success in the sport.

Takeaways:

• Joe O'Dwyer shares invaluable insights from his extensive experience coaching on the ATP and WTA tours, emphasizing the importance of mental resilience for aspiring players.
• The journey through junior tennis to professional levels often involves overcoming significant mental and physical challenges, which can define a player's career trajectory.
• O'Dwyer highlights the critical role of a supportive coaching team and the necessity for players to develop not only technical skills but also mental fortitude in competitive environments.
• The podcast revisits the narrative of Conor Nyland's success, showcasing how individual stories can inspire and shape perceptions of Irish tennis on the global stage.
• The conversation includes reflections on the rigorous demands of the professional tour, where physical stamina and mental strength are equally paramount for success.
• Finally, O'Dwyer underscores the notion that success in tennis is often a marathon rather than a sprint, requiring dedication, patience, and a willingness to adapt in the face of adversity.

🗣️ 3 Key Quotes:

1. “He didn’t ask if they had a forehand—he asked if they were mentally strong enough.”

2. “Just because you played the tour doesn’t mean you can coach.”

3. “It takes a village—and a lot of money—to build a top player.”

⸻

✅ 5 Takeaway Points:

1. Mental resilience is the #1 trait needed to survive the tour grind.

2. Talent is common—coaching and structure make the real difference.

3. Parental pressure can derail even the most talented juniors.

4. The college pathway is a strong option—if done right.

5. Tennis has a hidden dark side, including gambling and Adderall abuse.

Hope you enjoy it

Fabio

This podcast is sponsored by ASICS. ASICS is a Japanese company founded in 1949 to give more people the opportunity to experience how sports and movement can have a positive impact on mental well-being.

To learn more about ASICS visit their website here: https://www.asics.com/nl/en-nl/sports/tennis/

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Joe, welcome back to theFunction tennis podcast.
Good to see you again. Fabio.How are you? Glad to be back.
It's five years since you'relast on here.
Yeah.
And let me tell you, everytime somebody asks what episode should
I listen to, one or two peopletell me to listen to your last episode.
I think it was crazy. Theylove it. So from being good stories,
good storyteller, you know,you recount them well and that people

(00:22):
love you. So I think we'vetalked about this for a while to
get you back on and I'm gladto have you on. But for those that
don't know who you are, firsttime listening to you, first time
to discover Joe Dwyer. Who are you?
I'm a professional ATP, WTAcoach. Coached on the tour for 20
years starting in 1919 andkind of went off when COVID 19 hit

(00:43):
my last player, retired. Hadthe honor of working with a lot of
really good players. RobbieGinepri, Alexander Stevenson. You
might not know them, but semifinalist, won in. Robbie was a semifinalist
at the US Open, lost in fiveto Andre Agassi. Alexander Stevenson
was a semifinalist inWimbledon. And TJ Middleton. A lot
of doubles guys. And thenIrish guys would of course be Conor

(01:06):
Nyland, whose book the Rackethas become a phenomenal success in
Ireland and in England. Gotbook of the year, sports book of
the year in England. So fairplay to Conor Nyland.
Yeah. Yeah. No, you werementioning Conor Nyland's book. Thompson,
you knew Connor pretty well.And I think the last episode we covered
a bit of everything in thelast episode. Coaching tips, double

(01:28):
stuff, some of your stories.
Yeah.
You know, your opinions on afew things, which you'll get more
of today.
Yeah.
But yeah, we happy. Connorsbook obviously did really well. It
was loved by like, you know, alot of times you think he's Irish
players only going to getattention in Ireland, but you know,
people in the UK around theworld now, I think he's a bit more
in the States now. So the bookdid quite well.

(01:48):
It's a great story on the bookbecause Connor called me up and said,
hey, Joe, I'm right. I'vewritten the book and it's getting
published. I said it was avery short and sweet telephone call.
I said, that's. That's great,Connor. He says, I mentioned the
book and I was expecting justa couple of the lines in the book.
And then when the book cameout, fair play to Connor. He wrote
about 15 or 16 or 17 pagesabout me and my coaching and my personality

(02:13):
and so it's a great read ifanybody wants to. It's a good insight
into the Tour. It really is agreat insight into the Tour. What
life is like at that level asyou're moving from challenger into
the Grand Slam level. Yeah.What it's like to move in that and
what it takes, basically.
Yeah. No, because most of thesuccess stories, they're normally

(02:33):
the books you read of doingthe Grand Slams. And his was nice
to get to the real life, whatit's like for 99% of the players.
Because it's a grind outthere. Every week.
It's a grind. And you have tobe so mentally strong. I just got
off the phone with Jy, who wascoaching Riley Opelka, who's now
decided to come off the tour.And I've got some potentially really

(02:54):
good players in the pipeline,actually Irish tennis players. And
the first thing Jy said didn'task me whether they had a forehand,
a backhand, or whether theycould run. He said, are they gonna
be mentally strong enough toendure the rigors of the tour? Cause
the tour is just like a life.As Forrest Gump. The book says, life

(03:15):
is like a box of chocolate. Icoached Winston Groome. I coached
his daughter. He wrote thatbook. And he's so right. The tour
is like a life. It's like alife of, like, a box of chocolates.
You just never know whatyou're gonna get. Yeah.
No, people see. You know, yousee the travel. Monte Carlo, Paris,
Miami, L.A. melbourne. Theysee the beautiful things. Even if

(03:38):
you're just doing that alone,it gets tough. Like, first year is
probably great. Then it justgets harder. There's a mental baggage
there.
There's a mental baggage toit. I mean, I'm really to. You work.
And you absolutely put in thework for the Grand Slams, which means
your workload increases. Causeyou have to play five sets of tennis.

(03:58):
So it's really six sets oftennis. So your body has to have
the capability of playing sixsets of tennis for two weeks. So
the workload is intense forthose four weeks. And if you lose,
that's, you know, that's theend, really, of. It's like the four
elements. Wind, water, fireand earth. You're done with them

(04:19):
again for a year. You have towait till next year again before
you periodically. You have todo the work for six sets, whereas
rest of the year, it's threesets. It's a little bit easier on
the body, a little bit easieron the mind.
Yeah, no, you see, obviously,juniors, where they make a Breakthrough.
They might win a match or twoand then they're done. They just
can't. The body can't do it anymore.

(04:40):
The body is a huge part of it.And then it's just, it's a mental
thing. And really your coachbecomes an integral part of your
team. The team really makes adifference for these players. Robbie
Giannapoli did a great jobwith tfo. So did Frank Salazar as
well. Both of them. It justtakes a village like Jeff Saltzer

(05:04):
takes a village to producethese players a lot and a lot of
money.
I think that's become moreevident now. How much? Look, we need
a coach, first of all, youknow, from an early age you need
somebody who's on you and thenit's building the team around that,
isn't it? Between, you know,use strength, condition and sort
of coach. You need yourparents in the early days helping

(05:24):
you out, making the rightdecisions for you. And then you have
to build from there, don'tyou? You're not going far with it.
No. And the parents, in fact,they can be part of the problem.
Okay, so they can, they can.Actually a lot of them will be very
successful businessmen or someof them will be major coaches for

(05:45):
football teams, soccer teams,and their kids want to get involved
in professional tennis. Andthey go out there and they think
they can look at a couple ofvideos on YouTube or look at a couple
of matches and think suddenlythey're tennis coaches. It doesn't
work like that. You have tohave the ability to be able to feed
the ball to a professionallevel to your player when he's starting

(06:08):
off on the, on the futures andgetting through the challenges. You
have to be able to feed theball and you have to know the variety
feeds. You have to know thestrengths, the weaknesses. You have
to make them laugh. You haveto keep them happy.
It's not just, I know theparents thing, you know, a good parent
will understand. Look, you'repaying a coach.
Yeah.
Maybe we can talk about someof the higher end coaches do get

(06:29):
paid on a weekly basis, butthe coaches are getting paid and
they, you have to trust thecoach, do their job. And sure, you're
there for guidance, you arelooking after best interest of your
child, but ultimately you'repaying the coach to be this, I'm
not sure if the CEO, but tosteer the ship and you know, to help
your son or daughter get towhere they want to go.

(06:50):
To get to where they want togo. And that's. And the buzz is there's
a great coach out There,Stanford Bolster, who worked with
Andy Roddick and Marty Fish.He's worked with numerous top 10
good friend of mine. And he.He and I were both working with players
back at the Futures level and.And Challenger level. And he. I'll

(07:11):
never forget the words. And hesays, I just love this part of the
journey. It's the journey fromthe. For the coaches, the journey
from the future through thechallenges to the main tour. Once
you get there, we've kind ofcompleted the task, and then we'll
stay on board or we'll hiresomebody else to come on board. Like,
you'll have two coaches, soyou have three coaches. So the workload

(07:31):
is not just on you. You don'thave to do the 40 weeks on the road,
but after a while, even thecoaches, they. They just get burnt
out.
It's a grind. It's for thecoach, because you're missing your
family, your family back home.Obviously, some coaches, not all
coaches are married, havekids, but a lot of them do.
A lot of them do.
You miss. It's a long time tobe away.

(07:52):
A lot of the coaches that arefor you, if they're used to producing,
like, Jerry Baskin's a greatexample. Robbie's coach, phenomenal
coach, hall of Famer coach. Iworked with Gerry Baskin and I said,
gerry, why didn't you justcontinue to. Robbie was top 20 in
the world. He went, joseph. Itwas the downtime. Like, some days

(08:13):
Robbie would only hit forlike, half an hour. And that's my
day. I couldn't deal with thedowntime. You know, I'm used to being
on the court with kids, andI'm getting them ready to go to college,
basically, if they make thetour. Fair enough. He said it's more
fun working with kids that are18 or 19 and getting them to play.
At the University of Georgia,which the biggest schools in America,

(08:35):
he produced more Division 1players than any other coach in living
history in America. Jerry wasgreat to work with. I mean, I've
been lucky to be around somegreat coaches like Jerry Baskin,
Stanford Bolster, and evenwith the coaches, there's a network
in there. Same with theplayers. We either gel or you don't
gel.
There's so many great coachesout there we don't know about that,

(08:56):
have done the early work thatthat's. It's easy to come along to
get a Finnish player, youknow, and you're just there. You're
their friend, really. Morethan anything, maybe it's a bit more
prevalent in the WTA Tour.Than the ATP tour. But I think coaches
have been called out recentlyonline between different podcasts.

(09:18):
There's been talks about itwhere I think was Yanko Tipsarevic
actually.
Yeah.
A few weeks ago on the tennispodcast talked about these coaches
who he does not think they'requalified to do the job. They're
just there to pick up a paycheck.
They do that and they're thereto pick up the paycheck. But not
only that, the players who'vemade top 100 or top 50, they've done
it for two or three years.You're babysitting really then you

(09:41):
know. Yeah. The workload isway lighter than the workload to
get them inside the top 100.Getting inside the top 100 is an
absolute grind. It's a grindwe know like when's.
The last time Norris playermade the top hundred?
Never. Oh, Matt Doyle.

(10:02):
It's these guys have workedhard. Like.
Yeah.
You work with James McGee.Yeah, obviously. Who? Others. Conor
Nyland. Yeah, they're the lasttwo. Sorry. Luke Sorensen was top
hundred.
Yes, he was.
He come through the Irish system.
No, no.
But of those Irish basedplayers, Conan island, they worked
their ass off. They wereharder than as hard as anybody works.

(10:26):
Yes.
And there's still no guaranteeyou're going to get for you, Joe,
what is?
Well, I'm back in Ireland heretrying to discover a talent and I
can take inside the top 50.And as you're aware, my whole coaching
career, my base was Atlantabefore COVID 19. So coming back into
Ireland was a big adjustment.One I'm dealing with courts that

(10:47):
are never used or playing inwet weather conditions and then the
coaches that are here. There'sa lot of money involved in Ireland
and tennis so it revolvesaround putting eight kids on the
court, on each court,sometimes six to eight kids on the
court. And the money is verylucrative if you do the math for
six or seven courts, ifthere's one kid that's out there,

(11:08):
they're never hand picked out.So in every other country, if you're
one of the best players,you're picked and you're taken by
your association and you don'tsee kids anymore. You're hitting
with adults, you're hittingwith your coach it and he's with
you wherever you go. To everyjunior tournament in Ireland, coaches
rarely, in fact they don't go,they don't chart the matches. It's

(11:31):
kids just jump out of the car,no warm ups and go and play.
They're not all like that.Let's Be honest, there are a few
taking a bit more seriously.They do take it seriously but they,
but they're still. Doesn'tmean they don't do the.
They take it seriously. But15, there's. They're just as talented
as the rest of the players inthe world. Everywhere else in the

(11:52):
rest of the world at 15, thekids go and play futures and if they're
in Spain they'll get wildcards into challengers main draw.
You know, it's a differentformula. They don't play the International
Tennis Federation juniortournaments if it's the US Open,
if they're good enough they'llget the wild cards into those tournaments
anyway. So it's a real dilemmabecause the parents think, oh, if

(12:15):
I put my kid through the under12s, under 14s, under 16s, under
18s, International TennisFederation junior Tour, that's going
to, it's going to make it.It's kind of a bit of a fantasy world
because you're there in thesecond week in a tournament and you
think you've made it. No, no.When you, when you haven't played
any futures and then suddenlyyou go out to the futures and some

(12:39):
number semi finalists atjunior Wimbledon can't even get out
of qualifying. They'll belucky. Some of them are lucky to
make it to 400 in the world.And then they just.
There are two types of juniorsI feel obviously the ones that if
you look at the rankings quiteeasy to see top 10 players. Some
players have played threetournaments under top 10. Some players
played 35 tournaments undertop 10. So you can already tell the

(13:00):
guys who play very and girlswho play very few tournaments are
up there. They're proper players.
Yeah.
When you play a lot oftournaments are more consistently
even though how to play thejunior game, you know, they're probably,
you know, they won't cop outas they may stick or you know, juniors
are terribly bad for. Theylose a set and they're like I'm going
home sort of. They're notresilient. And so already you can

(13:21):
see these just by looking.
I'm shaking my head because I,you know and then it's just a. Conversations.
I've spent so much money onyou and you, you should have won
that match one and one and youlost it seven, five and the third.
And I'm going like that's justnot how you, you don't talk. I mean
I've been in car rides withkids in America with some, some of

(13:45):
my clients and I just go and Igo like, oh, well, Donnie lost seven,
five in the third. And the dadwould. And go like, you're a disgrace
to the family. And they go,what do you mean you're a disgrace?
And I turn down and go. Andthe dad will go and look at me and
he's paying the bill,obviously go like, I'm the boss here,
I can say what I want. I'mpaying your salary. I said, that's

(14:06):
fine. And in those decisions,what I'll do normally is I'll. Because
they're young and I know I canget them to at least a division one
scholarship. Like they can goplay in a top ten university for
sure and play very high up inthat university if I spend the time,
which that's what I'm hard todo every tournament, every day. And
I make the decision usually tostay for the sake of the kid.

(14:28):
Yeah.
Because the kids dream big,you know, so.
Yeah, especially at a youngage. Yeah, they dream big. And it's
definitely tough, Joe, forthose young kids and parents. Yeah,
they're, you know, I'm surethere's plenty of fights go on between
them and especially you get tothat decision, where should a player,
you know, the day where, okay,you go, probably, are you going to

(14:49):
go to college? Like, there's abig level difference. Like, I think
it's pretty obvious if you gonow, like you got to be playing,
you got to have a world rankedfutures. And I speak to coach about
the other day, an Irish coach,a friend of mine, I think he's quite
a good coach.
Yeah.
But he's saying like, okay, asyou just said there, you know, at
13, 14, talent wise there'snot much difference between Irish

(15:09):
kids. And there's a gap, butit's not that big of a gap. But that's
the day the gap gets bigger.And decisions they make, then decisions
are made. Players obviouslyplay futures better hitting partners
are playing on clay courts orgood hardcourts and the gap just
gets wider. Like you're theretalking about bringing some Irish

(15:30):
players through. You know,maybe they're not at the level now.
No.
But do you not think that gapis too hard to close already?
No, because I look at a lot ofthe players that are in college and
they stay the four years incollege and they don't play that
much and then come out andthey make the top 100, they make

(15:51):
top 50, they make top 20. Imean, Ben Shelton's a great example.
Like I know Brian Sheltonreally well from Georgia Tech where
I used to go into practicewith Robbie McGee. I'd be in there.
In there with Jack Sock. We'dbe in there with numerous different
people practicing. And Brianwas just a great coach. He won the
NCAS there with the women, andthen he went down to Florida and

(16:13):
then his son played down thereand he never left America. But the
coaching team that Brian hadin there, he. He won the NCAS as
a junior, turned pro andreached the semifinals of the US
Open that year. So the collegeroute is good if you pick the right
school with the right.

(16:34):
He was obviously. What was BenShelton Rackland as us Junior. Was
he up there?
He would have been up pretty high.
So I needed a year in Florida,that's all. You only had a year in
college?
I think he played till he wasa junior.
Did he? Okay, I'm not.
You need to check that.
I thought he did one year inFlorida. But what made him. Apart
from he's very athletic, whatmade him, like, why was he that sort

(16:59):
of player compared to somebodyover here? Let's say. Let's compare.
Why? The coaching, pure andsimple. The coaching who has the
ability to transition you froma junior to the tour. Just because
you played in the tour andyou're top 20 in the world or top
50 in the world or top 30 doesnot make you a great coach. A lot
of them just do it soautomatically they don't even think

(17:22):
so. They can't explain it inlogical sense. And they don't see
where the holes are on theplayers. They don't see where the
strengths or the realweaknesses are. They'll just go,
don't miss that shot like me.But I mean, that's basically it.
So it comes down to repetitionand repetition of doing the right

(17:42):
drills. So you have to knowwhat you're doing with this ball
before it even arrives to thatpart of the court. Your decision
is already made. You knowexactly where you're approaching.
You're going to go to the backand the forehand before that ball
even gets there. So whereverthe ball goes, your brain is already
calculated. You know whereyou're serving, who you're serving

(18:02):
to. Where are you going to go?Body. What are you going to go to
the forehand or you're justgoing to hit the back at it?
They're like modules in yourhead. They're just programmed and
it's classic.
You look at the last Wimbledonfinal looked at was with Kevin Anderson
and, you know, great player,no? Kevin Craig. Tylee's last recruit
into the University ofIllinois. Craig, Brilliant coach

(18:23):
Rajiv Ram. Played four on histeam. Kevin Anderson was his last
recruit, but I was workingwith Carrie Franklin and funnily
enough, so Stuart Doyle, oneof Ireland's youngest Davis cup players,
he was there as the assistant.So it comes down to that. It really
comes down to that. It comesdown to that coaching. But Kevin
Anderson, his forehand had atendency to let him down. But we'd

(18:47):
never say that on the tv.Like, if I'm interviewed on the television,
we're going to big forehandand the big, big, huge backhand.
But the reality is we're goingafter that forehand. Like with. We're
not even going to try and acehim on that side. We'll try to make
him start every single pointwith that forehand and we'll go aces
on the backhand and then bodyserves. And if you go back through

(19:08):
that finals match at Wimbledonand count a number of errors on Kevin
Anderson's forehand, it's a.
Some things stick aroundforever. Your DNA, it's hard to change.
And it's been like that forforever. Like, very few people figured
out how to play Jimmy Connors.Very, very few people. I know that's

(19:29):
going back in time, but whenArthur Ashe beat him, it was a softball
cross court to the forehand. Iwatched in Cincinnati, there was
a Gonzalez player from SouthAmerica and did the same thing. And
I watched the play and went,God, that's where the hole is. So
the expertise, coaching on thetour, and there are no secrets out

(19:49):
there. Like I said in myprevious podcast, there are no secrets.
Everybody knows.
Everybody knows. I mean, youlooked at. Dimitri was playing Andy
Murray before Andy retired,and we all know Murray's backhand
is by far his superior shot.So in order to neutralize that, Dimitri
would hit every slice backinto the middle of the backhand court.

(20:11):
Now, if you're a forehanddominant player, you're running around
that and Canaan. But Murraywould just use the back and it took
it away because the ball hasto be hit. You know, it's. You're
taking real estate away fromAndy Murray. He can't hurt you as
much when the ball is there. So.
Yeah, but in order to, youknow, you play somebody, there's
a game plan there.
Yeah.
In order to play, there's nopoint giving somebody a game plan.

(20:33):
This is more lower levelstuff. You can't hit the shot.
No, they can't.
That's always a challenge. Youknow, you're going to play a match,
you can't do that. So the gameplan, you're Even worse.
It's even worse. They can't do it.
Yeah.
So if I say, hey, you've gotto slice the ball short to the forehand
side, they can't do it.Whereas if I ask Santoro, you've
got to slice the ball short tomorat Safin's forehand. Lo and behold,

(20:55):
if you go, that's Safin'sweakness, go look at the win loss
record with Santoro on SAF.And it's like 74 to Santolo. So it
is the coaches.
They're matchups as well.
They're matchups too.
Yeah, yeah. But somebody likeFederer who had every shot in the
game, so all of a sudden henext to you, you know, he has his
own game plan, but he canchange it up and bring out weakness.

(21:17):
Yeah, he's very subtle.Federer was very, very smart. Like
an absolute Michelangelo onthe tennis court. And, you know,
he might as well moved like.He moved like something I've never
even seen in my life. Like,just like a whis fed was just so.
Did you ever come across Federer?
Yes.
Tell me.

(21:38):
We were in Toronto. Two goodstories on Toronto in the Master
Series. One was with Federer,and Jeff and I were in the locker
room. We saw we lost theRosetsky. And this is how beautiful
Federer is. There's a coupleof really great stories out there.
This is one on Roger. You'llreally appreciate this. And. And

(22:01):
Jeff goes up to Federer andgoes, hey, hey, Roger, my name's
Jeff. And Federer goes, jeff,I know who you are. And Jeff is top
100 in the world. And Federerjust treated him like he was one
of us. There was no heirs andgraces. And he said, sure, I'd love
to practice with you. And wewalk out, there's like 500 people
watching Federer. Next day wego practice with Karlovich. I'll

(22:24):
never forget that comment, theone that I had to get. Jeffrey and
Thomas Johansson would say, orjust won the Australian. The Australian
opened my tears and the crowdwas aging this one. They're just
nobodies. I think I mentionedthat in the last podcast, but it
doesn't matter. Its featherwas one of the most one that moved

(22:47):
like a whisper. Edberg wassomebody absolutely unique, too.
Every term that Edberg wentto, he would find out the people
that were working in thelocker room, their shirt sizes, their
shoe sizes, sign it and leavepackages for them before he left.
You don't hear stories likethat usually. You know, you just,

(23:09):
you hear, you hear the, youknow, you hear the bad stories. Yeah,
but you know, I mean there's alot of stuff I think that people
don't. I think one of the morecontroversial things going on we
were mentioning earlier,before we started was like Adderall
is a huge problem out there onthe tour. People aren't. It's a.

(23:31):
What we call on the tour, it'slegal. So if you've got an attention
deficit disorder, it'sprescribed to you.
We all have one of them.
Yeah, we all have oneprobably. Yeah. Me more than anybody
else. But what it does is ifyou use it long term use, you'll
develop some heart problems.You will develop heart problems and

(23:51):
sleeping patterns.
So by using Adderall, what.What advantage does it give you?
Massive amounts ofconcentration. Your home, like put
the blinkers on and youliterally. That's all that comes
into your mind is that tennisball and the decision making. It's
a huge advantage. Use it toomuch. You have to usually get a heart

(24:13):
operation. It looks like it'sa big procedure, but it's not. It
goes in. It's a valve thatkind of. It starts moving a little
bit too quickly. No, I mean, Iknow three or four players that have
had that operation. They'refine. Life goes on. They're okay.
Yeah, not great.
Not great. But mentally it canalso. It does. It messes with your

(24:36):
sleep patterns because youcan't come down sometimes off it.
So you have to take somethingelse in order to sleep.
And have you seen players dobetter because they've taken advantage?
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.Oh, no shadow of a doubt. Your careers
would not have made it withoutthe Adderall.

(24:57):
And while we're talking aboutAdderall and I know that's. I think
it's legal as far as I know.
Yeah.
On your. What are yourthoughts on sinner? I just saw today
that sinner like amounted themost points in the sunshine double
even though he's been notplaying because they've done so bad.
Al Crest, you know, so he'sstill clean up. But what's your thoughts

(25:18):
on. Is he guilty? Innocent inyour eyes?
You really. You're sodependent on your. On your team.
It was a minuscule amount. Soit was very, very, very, very tiny.
So it wasn't a major amount.So I mean, I think the fine is okay.

(25:39):
I don't. You know, but it'sthe message that it sends out to
the other players. That'swhere a lot of players have the problem.
They look at Mariana Puertoand Guillermo. Korea tested twice
for. Twice Korea for steroidsand Puerto tested stripped of whatever

(26:01):
he did at the French Open. Imean he might have lost some money.
Hopefully he got it back. ButI mean. But yeah, steroids. Yeah
there's another one that's outthere but his was so tiny that like.
But you never know because.And here's what people will do and
this is what kyrios will golike 90 went. Well look at Lance
Armstrong. He was tested thewhole Tour de France and he didn't

(26:22):
even. There wasn't even aspeck of steroids finding them. And
then the samples were retestedyears later. Positive. But so was
every racer in that Tour deFrance. Lance was arrogant and if
he'd been French I don't thinkhe would have been stripped of all
those titles because Ulrichtests are positive as well. So they

(26:44):
couldn't award the. You know.
Yeah, I think cycling's adifferent beast completely.
I just, I don't know. Iactually don't. I mean not when you've
got Poeta tests and gain mycareer test and positive.
But I think you get the guysthat top the game may have more money
and they can employ the bestdoctors and they can be ahead of
the game. What they're doingis probably not illegal. Just hasn't

(27:05):
been. Hasn't been federation.Why they haven't figured it out.
Yeah there's something outthere anyway the.
Others, they don't make asmuch money as you think. I think
it's too risky for. You know,I'm sure it's expensive to do. Yeah
to at the. To be at the top oftechnology. I don't know medical,
I don't know drug take. Idon't know what's called but so I,

(27:27):
Yeah, I don't. I think they'vetried things. I don't think so I'm
probably a bit naive. I didthink Lance Armstrong was innocent
for a large chunk of this. SoI'm a bit more naive. But yeah, I'm
sure they're doing.
Look, I would. Yeah and I'dalso say like money wise the biggest
risk they do, they actuallywill do. With the money wise thing,
I'd say. I'd say it'sgambling. When the players start

(27:51):
coming towards the end oftheir careers, gambling is a huge
issue out there. It's very,very big and it's very hard to detect.
I mean the estimates. It'svery difficult, very, very difficult
to.
Detect that it's a danger. Youhear this obviously I see a lot of.
Between being online you see alot of the comments players get in

(28:13):
their DMs after they lose amatch, they're quite nasty comments.
So that side isn't nice.
But I was told by certainfederations in Europe because when
they saw Conan was making hisrun and they go like this, Conor
Gamble. I went, absolutely no,he does no gambling whatsoever. And
he explained the process tome, how it's done. They'll only do

(28:34):
it two or three times a year.And what you'll do is you'll go in
the challenger and say you'reseated one through four. In a challenger,
you're playing a qualifier andthe odds come up three to one. If
you're from certain countries,the bets are unlimited. You can put
$200,000 on that bet ifyou're. And so to do the Mac, they

(28:58):
collect three to one on 600,half a million. It's what they collect.
You think it's that big? Ithink it's.
I actually know and I'm notgoing to mention any names whatsoever.
Yeah, I mean they talk to meand they known circumstances and
I've watched it happen. Sothere's no point you mention any

(29:18):
names. It absolutely goes on.
Use a coach. Your player getsinvolved in this. Like, where's your
integrity? You know, I'm notsaying it was one of your players,
by the way, but how would youknow as a coach if one of your players
say, hey, Joe, you know, somegood money on the table here, I'll
help pay your bills for thenext year. Yeah, you know, I'm going
to take.
A huge moral, ethical decisionand luckily I've never been in that

(29:42):
position, but I would, I wouldsay, no, no, no, thank you, I did
what I did. Like, I mean, Isaid thanks for the information,
but no, no, it's not, it'sjust, it's just a stain and it's
a stain on your brain. But alot of people don't care. They really
don't care because they'remaking millions. So a lot of the

(30:04):
players will hide out in thefutures for three and four years.
They'll make a million a yearfrom just playing futures and using
the betting. I mean, there'sno cameras allowed anywhere, even
at the futures level.
Are you sure it's known chatbetween players if this.
It's absolutely known chat.But the ones that are sill enough
are the ones where the guycomes and goes, oh, I'll give you

(30:24):
$10,000 in cash. And you'vejust been set up. And that happens
quite a bit. But the smarterones have their syndicates and. But
in Ireland, for example, inIreland, one Of the countries you
can't bet on is Russia. Youcan't place any significant amounts
of money on any Russianplayers. None.
They just know.
They just know, like, there'sa limit, like. Yeah. Whereas if you're

(30:48):
in Russia, you can. The sky'sthe limit on what you want to bet.
Yeah, I don't know much aboutthat world.
Yeah, I know. I know too muchabout it. But, I mean, I can laugh
about it, but it's, it's,it's, it's just well known because
that's the only way a lot ofthese players can fund their careers.
They. They can't afford thecoaching. It's either that or if

(31:12):
you're not from, you know,from the Grand Slam countries like
we were talking about, thefees, you know, for Robbie would
be seven and a half thousand aweek to coach TFL. Eight thousand
a week.
TFO's paying Robin, the USPAwas paying.
The United States Tenantsassociation was paying Robbie Ginepri
about seven and a half thousand.

(31:34):
Was that like three weeks of the.
Year or as much as tfo needed them?
7. That's not coming out. That's.
Robbie got the job done.
That's not coming out ofTifo's pocket, though. It's USTA.
It's coming out of USTA.
But he got T4, got placed.
Yeah. So the only otheroptions, if you're not from a Grand
Slam country, being Dan Evanshad a whole team of them traveling.

(31:55):
Dan Evans career changed,really. It wasn't that he was caught
with drugs. Roger Federerreached out and took him in and showed
him a lot of really cool ballmanagement skills. Like, you're not
doing this, you shouldn't dothis, you shouldn't do that. Dan
Evans is a completelydifferent player after he finished
because Bedra literallycleaned him up, opened the book,

(32:18):
opened the playbook for DanEvans and Dan Evans got the playbook.
Completely different playerthan when he was before. He did his
big chunk of training with Roger.
I do remember him in Fitz,changing him, playing the Irish Open
here. Like, I think he wascoming in at five in the morning,
match at nine in the morning,you know, he was completely wild.

(32:39):
Like, I was still winning, bythe way. Yeah, I know when you're
gifted, you're gifted. He wasmissing the hard work part.
He was missing the hard work.Show them the hard work part and
also show them just, you know,when the ball goes here, don't be
doing that. So the coachingand the knowledge is huge because
when you have it, it relaxesyour mind and Also, if you're looking
up at your coach in the boxand now you can talk to them, it's

(33:03):
a huge stress relief. Wealready have the game plan. They've
got their game plan, we've gotours. And it's a game of chess. And
that's it at the end of theday. And it's a great buzz. I still
love watching the Grand Slams.I don't watch the regular ATP events

(33:24):
as much, but the Grand Slams.Yeah. Still tune in. Yeah.
You talk the money back likeplayers needed money. But I find
there's a fine line thatplayers or potential players come
from a lot of money. I knowsome have shown true, like the Pegulas
that are come true, but it'snearly. The ones with too much money
don't work hard enough. Youknow, they're maybe talented. They

(33:45):
never really break through.And also no money said if no money.
It's like the ones with nomoney who can get money. Seem to
be the hungriest ones.
Seem to be the hungriest ones.
I say if you did a breakdownof the top 20 players, I'd love to
know exactly what the real financial.
Style, the real financialstuff. Well, Tommy Hasset, well documented.
Tommy paid 40% of his earningsback to his business consortium till

(34:08):
he was 30. All earnings.
He got a raw deal. Yeah.
No, the worst one of allthat's well documented was Carlos
burlock from Argentina, 80%till he was 30. So I watched Burlock.
I was hitting one, the ConorNylam dude. And in Finland at a challenger,
I just remember him sittingdown on the bench and just, you know,

(34:30):
just going, estoy me and Fermiin my cabasa. Mi cabasa. My head
is sick. And if you look athim, he was constantly injured till
he was about 30. As soon as heturned 30, his earnings went through
the roof. That's documented.But those are the kind of contracts
you're looking at. You're notgoing to get away with anything less
than and be anything less than30 or 40% outside of its. And then

(34:54):
you have players like Golbuswho absolutely loaded Marcello Rios
where they. Loaded, yeah.Loaded. Loaded, yeah. Rios story
is brilliant. Brilliant storyon Rios. He goes to Monte Carlo somehow
goes into the casinos, andhe's just starting off on the tour
and goes in there, he losesabout. I think it was close to a

(35:17):
million. And he calls his dadup like, I just lost a million. Can
you send me some money intothe bank? At the end of that, I was
gambling. He said, you're notGetting the penny hung the phone
up. Out goes rios, wins MonteCarlo, 600, 700 pack into the package.
Yeah, he's good, but I mean,but I mean, the stories are just

(35:43):
funny like that.
What was the Andy Roddick one with.
Gold, Golbus and Annierolling? Well, this has been something
that's really, really funny.So there's a huge self entitlement
that goes on on the tour. Likea lot of people just think they're
the bee's knees. And it'segos. And there's a lot of egos out
there. Some have big egos andsome have no egos. So there was a

(36:06):
great tournament. There's atournament in Sweden when all the
players go in. There was aparticular restaurant there in Sweden
on that tour event. Andthere's a waiting list for a year
to get even to go in and eat.
That's how this pastad.
Yes, this is how great thefood is. So Roddick goes in with
the entourage. He goes, I'mAndy Roddick and I'm here with my

(36:29):
three mates. Can we get atable, please? And the guy goes,
excuse me. And he said, Idon't know who you are. I said, I'm
Andy Roddick, you know, don'tyou know who I am? U.S. open champions.
Sorry, sir, we don't have anytables at all. And so Roddick left
in the huff. Literally about,you know, a couple of hours later,

(36:52):
a day later, Golbus goes inwith his team and they go. And he
goes. And imagine, he said,listen, I'm in town, I'm working
here. I'm just in here for theweek. I would really love to have
a table. And he goes, I'mreally, really sorry. And. And Golbus
goes, will you open up yourhand? And he goes, gets to be about

(37:15):
like, who knows, like 10grand. The guy goes, and I just want
to make sure the whole staff,everybody in here is going to be
taken care of. And the guygoes, stop. I'm going to get them
to set you up a special table.Enjoy your meal here. Thank you for
your generosity.
He knows the game.
He knows the game. But his dadwas a very successful one, very successful

(37:40):
businessman, I'd say. Workedmillions and millions. I mean, Golbus
flew around on a private jetfor a while.
Yeah, you can't wait. Thoseguys can't win either because, oh,
you know, all the money in theworld. But no wonder you can't. You've
no money. Loads of money. Nomatter what your story is, successes
can be hated on especially if you.
Come from money, it's hated oneven more if you're from money. Yeah,

(38:01):
you really are. It can be.It's. Yeah, you're playing with.
Playing with fire. There's alot of resentment in there sometimes.
Yeah, a lot of resentment.
Joe, let's get on to speakingof money as well. Another thing we
hear a lot in Ireland here isthere's no money, there's no courts.
And what's your. If you wereCEO of Tennis Ireland today, what's
your action plan?
Action plan would be you'dpick the three or four best players

(38:25):
that are. That are here.
How old?
Starting at 13. You get them.You have one coach to take an hour
and a half private lesson.That's a coach that's absolutely
put somebody inside the top10, from the juniors to the top 10,
not just going out on thetour. That'll be the first thing.

(38:45):
Individualize them. Theywouldn't hit with a single junior
tennis player except somebodywho had Davis cup experience or an
adult that had played on thetour, say for example, a Connor or
a.
That can be hard though, toget, especially in Ireland, to get
access to those things.
Yeah, to get access. But ifthe coach is good enough, you have

(39:06):
to have that networkingability. You must have that. And
then you don't play in theSavannah grass courts because they're
wet and you can't play in it.This surface is illegal in the rest
of the world. You're notallowed to play. It's banned, it's
uneven. Tarmacadden with acarpet on it. I found the story of
that was Brendan Evans. Iwould 13, signed over a million dollar

(39:30):
contract with Nike and he flewover to play the challenger and it
was all sunshine on the firstday. And the second day it's out
of rain and the court is wet.And he calls his team and he goes
like, they're going to put meon a wet court. And they go like,
no, you're not. You'reretiring. We put a million into you.
You're leaving, you'reretiring. You are not playing on

(39:50):
a tennis court where there'swater coming off the tennis balls.
It makes no sense. And alsoit's being CEO. You have to hire
the coaches who have theability and you have to individualize
it. Here it's groups and thenthe coaches in Ireland that are really
good will not travel. So say,for example, you're the most talented

(40:12):
player Fabio in Ireland. AndI'm a tennis director and I'm working
eight hours a day in Irelandand I'm making €100 an hour for my
privates and I've got 16 kidsfor two hours for my group lessons.
And am I going to take you totake you to the Futures and go out

(40:32):
there for three weeks and getpaid way less than what you're going
to make and then suddenlythey've got kids, they got a house,
they got a car, they got toget the kids to school. There's no
chance I'm going.
So how do you combat that?
You hire somebody whoabsolutely is willing to do it. Very
few and far between. And inIreland, particularly, because it's

(40:56):
this great money to be made intennis coaching in Ireland. It's
a good lifestyle and the tour.Yeah. And it's really. And it's fun.
You're helping kids. They goto college in America, you know,
minimum, they win Irishnational titles. If they go to Trinity
University or they go toAmerica, their resume looks great.
Irish national champion, Irishinternational, you know, puts you

(41:18):
on the top of the. It's. Sothere's a lot more to it than.
Ireland's not a bad country tobecome a national champion because
if you're one or two inIreland, you get one of the best
universities in the state.
Yeah, yeah.
And also. Which then will leadyou on to a great job, you know,
Great job. You won't be going pro.
No.
But you'll be getting a great.So it's a real way to get ahead.
And it's a great insurancepolicy. People don't realize that

(41:41):
the tour, you can get injuredand like I worked with Brian Verhaley
all the way up to his collegeand he got to be 68 in the world
and he got injured and hecouldn't play. Luckily, he had his
degree from Virginia, wentback and got his Masters. Chad Carson,
captain coach Chad as well, ontour knees, gave out and didn't have

(42:06):
the money. Went and got hismaster's degree in Harvard. But John
Dorn, of all people who playedat Harvard with James Blake, same
thing with John. They didn'thave the money. Played on the tour.
Would have been verysuccessful had he had a coach but
didn't have it. Him and ChadCarlson got master's degrees from
Harvard, which is weird.
I think John is probably toointelligent. He goes, wait, I can

(42:26):
just use my degree to get ajob in finance and make a lot of
money straight away. So he wasprobably more intelligent and he
probably made the right call.
But I mean, without thatcollege degree in America, it's a
barrier to entry. You can't bereally a tennis director anymore
or be Indian industry. And thejobs in America are even more lucrative.

(42:48):
Oh yeah, it's like 240, 000 ayear at some of the country clubs.
I think even the collegecoaches get.
College coaches are on. Yeah.I mean, yeah. Brian Boland who was
at, who was in BaylorUniversity was half a million a year.
Yeah. It's a lot, a lot of money.

(43:08):
Players now are getting.
Now the players are gettinggreat. And that's the other thing.
If you're a junior and youplay at 15, you play the futurists
from countries like Spain andArgentina and you get to be 300 in
the world, you're worth about$100,000 a year now at a top 10 college.
Now don't get me wrong, it's atop 10 school. You're going somewhere

(43:32):
where you're going to try andwin the ncas, which is huge in America
and they will pay you thatmoney. Some of them will pay you
for. If you come for one year,we'll give you $50,000 one semester
and we'll pay for your collegefor the rest of your life. If you
ever decide you want to comeback to college, you don't have to
worry about paying anycoaching fees.
So what are you doing? You're300, 400 in the world.

(43:53):
Yeah.
17, 18. So you finishedschool. Do you go pro or do you go
to college? It's sort of a.You know, that's. I think that's
a. You're really at the edge there.
I'm taking, I'd probably takethe money because what am I going
to pay 30 or 40% to a business consortium?
Well, you may not have that.
That's. You don't have it.That's why you're going to. That's

(44:14):
why you would go to theschools. That's a disincentive. Then
Jy and I were talking aboutthat. What happens if you leave your
college degree and you've gotlike 300,000 in your bank account
and a degree? Are you reallygoing to want to go back out and
go to spend three weeks inEgypt and nobody there. Like it's
just you and your coach. Areyou on your own? No. Thank you. And

(44:38):
then next week we'll be in,we'll be in Tunisia for three weeks.
If you're. Look, if you're, ifyou've entered college at 300, 400
a world and you do well. Yeah,you'd like to say you'd like to leave
college, you may not be Muchhigher. Because you're not playing
that many tournaments, but youprobably know you're probably fitter,
stronger.
Yeah.
And if you go in the run, ifyou go on the run, you're 300, 400.

(45:00):
You're only a few futureswaves. Being a challenger.
Yeah. But you're actually inthe challengers at that level. Yeah.
You're really close to, you'rereally close to three or 400. You're
like, you're looking atplaying the qualys in Grand Slams
too. So you're very close.Like it looks very close at 300.
Yeah, 300. You're very closeto playing. You're there. Yeah.

(45:21):
What I've seen the best, thegood players who have potential to
break top hundred will dofutures and they get runs in futures
and they might get two runs offutures and they're strained to challenges.
Like they don't hang aroundfutures too. Maybe a year of futures.
Year or two, max.
Two is even too long. I thinkfrom what I've gathered, I think
a year futures, year and ahalf and you're winning them.

(45:44):
Yeah.
And then you've already wonchallenger matches in between.
Yeah.
Next thing you know, sixmonths later, you're in a challenger
final.
And Yuri Vesli is a great,great example of that. He won about
six or seven futures in a rowbecause I remember James McGee beat
him in the semis in a futurein, in, in. In Texas. Yeah. And he'd
won his previous five. SoMcGee had a lot of really good wins

(46:08):
over, like he beaten Tiafo, hebeat Jazzy. He's had some great wins
out there.
He was always just one winshort. I found every. He just. Oh,
he's so close so many times.
So many times. Great guy. He'sout there in Las Vegas now working
with a great charity to take.
Kids and inspire children.
Inspiring kids that come frombackgrounds that are really very,

(46:29):
very tough. You know, theycome back and, you know, parents
may be abusive or addiction.Or addiction for themselves. And
all of those kids go tocollege. They all go to college.
So it's a great job. It's very rewarding.
He loves it over there.
He drives a bus and takes themout into the desert and he's. He's
an animal. Yeah. I love James.
From your years on the tour,Joe, what one match is the one that

(46:52):
stands out the most? Is thereone that you think about.
More often with any of all theplayers that I've been coaching,
Any situations.
That you really remember mostvividly, that.
You'Re probably most happy ofIt'd be more. It would probably be
watching James McGee being 15,40 down, two match points down at

(47:15):
a challenger in the firstround of qualies in Savannah and
saving the match points andthen he goes into the quarterfinals
and he's two match points downagain and saves those match points
and wins that match. Those arethe moments that you. You live for,
really. It's those savingthose match points and winning that.

(47:35):
Winning those matches. That'sthe biggest high. Like recently it
was. Dimitri was playing inMiami and he had seven set points
in the first set and lostthem. And then he won the second,
and then he was kind of. Hewas another five all. The guy had

(47:57):
Dimitri, the second serve, 30,40, break point for his opponent,
and the guy hits the returninto the net. And that was a match
you just don't miss. Secondserve return. So those are the moments.
Yeah, yeah.
You live. Obviously, the high,the. The variance between the low
and the high is so big. Youknow, you come from. You're down
and out, down and then you'vewon, which is crazy. And you don't

(48:18):
plan for it. You don't want tobe in a whole situation.
No, but sitting and watchingit is like when an. When you. I mean,
I just. Those are my favoritescenarios. Like Adriana Panata, 13
match points down. ThisItalian superstar. If you don't know
him, you should go back andtake a look at him. He's one of the
most gifted players that everplayed. 13 match points down in Rome

(48:42):
in the master series. Saveshim, goes on, wins, beats Bjorn Borg
in the final, then goes to theFrench Open and wins that. So those
are kind of. I like the matchpoints when you're losing the match
and you come back. Those arethe highs.
For me, I think probably it'sa lot. For a lot of people.
I think that no matter whatlevel, boxing is the only thing.

(49:07):
Like you've been knocked down.It looks like you're out. And then
you get up and you. You knockthe other person out. I mean, the
high is so high.
That's so funny. One point can just.
Yeah. One chain point.
One missed opportunity. It'slike you missed that easy forehand.
Yeah. Roddick's won in thefinal of the. At Wimbledon when he
had that match pointing thebackhand. Volleyball. All you do

(49:27):
is hit into the court. And infact, if he'd let the ball go, it
would have landed in.
The alley story as well. Ithink that he let the ball go against
Novak. But look, I'm sureFederer won. Federer shouldn't have
won the final against Roddo.
Yeah.
So, you know, and he shouldhave won the one against Jockey.

(49:49):
If you're there long enough,it goes.
Back around long enough, itcomes back. I mean, I mean. I mean,
yeah. I mean, the ones that Itend to remember, like, you know,
you know, Federe being, youknow, two match points up in Novak,
and then Novak just slaps aforehand winner cross court. I'll
never forget it. Like, went, what?
Yeah, but even like Federerprobably should have beaten Nadal
as well. And Wimbledon.

(50:10):
Yeah, they're great matches. Imean, that's exciting. And the funny
thing about the tour thatpeople don't get, it'll all be. It'll
continuously roll. Like whenyou think, oh, there's going to be
nobody, or no matchups matchup with Beyond Borg and McEnroe.
Suddenly we've got Agassi andSampras. Now we've got Sinner and
Zaria, and it's just the showkeeps going.

(50:34):
I think sometimes there'salways maybe a couple of years where
it takes a while to readjust.I think now we're. We're getting
there. Like obviously theAlcross sinner, like Fonseca coming
through. You know, there arethree big names and then there's
obviously. Yeah, there is aZerif's the Medvedevs jock, which
is still, you know, he'sdangerous, like.
Yeah. And they play tillthey're well into their 30s now.

(50:56):
Rinka's 40, I think today.
Yeah, it's. It's phenomenal.And then people go like, there was
a period of time where theplayers retired early. Like, McEnroe
went early, Borg went veryearly during those hours. But previous
to that, the player stayed onand played like ken Rose, always
39 in the finals of Wimbledon.Jimmy Connors was 39 in the semis

(51:20):
at the US Open. Now rattleover. Won a mixed doubles US Open
title. One of the Bryantbrothers at 49.
Yeah, it's crazy. That's whatyou can see. Look, they've made their
money, they've wontournaments. They're trying to get
on with their life. Andsometimes you see players, you know,
you don't see. You see them afew years later and they age a lot,
you know, when they retire 40,I see them at 50, like, oh, Dave,
age. We'll retire at 30. Youseem 10 years. They're still young

(51:43):
at 40.
Yeah.
You see something like MaritSafa, now he's young and like late
in you. They're young, they'reno older. Than Fedra. Like.
Yeah.
And they still seem, eventhough they retired 20 years ago,
let's say they.
Still look so young and theystill have that energy about them.
Yeah, it's. Yeah. I mean, andit's just there's always so many
talented players out there.Just, you know, like Rios never won

(52:06):
the Grand Slam yet he's one inthe world. Kyrgios is another one.
What would you take, actuallyquestion of, ask some guests. Would
you prefer to be world numberone and not win a slam? Rios. Or
win a slam and not be worldnumber one throughout your career?
Win a slam and not be numberone? Absolutely. Win a slam.

(52:27):
Okay. What about world numberone or Olympic medal only? Like,
so would you take world numberone or would you take. So there's
a press that is the presence,like world number. Sorry, Grand Islam,
world number one, Olympicgold. That seems to be the.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(52:47):
That's crazy.
But it's crazy. Yeah.
Joe, anything, any bits ofadvice you'd like to end with us
today? What's somethingimportant that young juniors and
their parents should be told?
I think that if they reallywant a professional tennis career,
I think one of the big. One ofmy favorite players that I worked
with and I spent a lot of timewith him early on and got him ready

(53:07):
for the tour by saying, RobertGalloway, he's a great example. He
went to Wolford College inAmerica. It's a no place school.
And he showed up at mydoorstep and he'd heard like about
like you could coach. And Itook him out, I took him through
some drills and then I said,no, no, no, I said, doubles is only
going to be your option. Iwill work with you for the next three
or four months. I'll show youevery single doubles drill. Then

(53:29):
you do this religiously, anhour and a half, six days a week.
Then you play two sets and atiebreaker in the afternoon and you
find some. You do because youhave to have a coach to feed you
the balls and sing in doubles,you don't. You can do the drills
among yourselves and if you'redisciplined enough and lo and behold,
off he goes. He does thetraining. And like you said, he won

(53:51):
his first six futures anddoubles. Now it's a longer grind.
You have to get to top 50, butif you like it, you have a career.
Like, he's only 31. He canplay till he's 44.
Yeah. What's he ranked now?
30.
He's a big guy.
He's a great guy.
I think I came across him inRoland Garris, last year's practice.
And I didn't know who, youknow, I don't know all the players.

(54:14):
I don't have the practiceschedule in front of me. You're like,
who? You know.
But doubles is definitely anoption. Now, a lot of players that
play singles do not like thedoubles. McGee that I worked with.
Saltonstein, different game.Different game.
Yeah.
Oh, it's completely different.And so a lot of the coaches, if you
do doubles, you getpigeonholed as a doubles coach. So

(54:34):
I really had no interest incoaching doubles on the tour. I just.
I mean, some players, somecoaches like it, they're good at
it, and they are double specialists.
They are double specialists.But for me, I know that Riley Opelka
kind of took a rip at the. Atthe doubles players, but at the end
of the day, yes, some of thesingles players could absolutely

(54:56):
play doubles, but there's alot of people that wouldn't be out
there playing doubles with,like, Andre Agassi. I watched him
play doubles once and waslike, no, dude. Like, no, you need.
I don't have time for that.
Yeah. And he just lookedcompletely out of sorts, you know.
But I mean, the doubles isjust. It's another option to pursue.

(55:18):
So that's your second option.So if you don't, if you don't, if
you know you're not going tomake it in the singles, you quite
don't have the speed. Doublesis if you enjoy the lifestyle. But
it's a longer road, it's a grind.
Tend to be older. It's alonger grind, It's a lot cheaper.
Changing.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a lot of swap, a lotof compatibility, but I mean, a lot
of the players will use thedoubles to. For their housing.

(55:40):
We finish. We finish up. Joe,that was a good chat. I still have
to get into the courts herewith you. Injury. Didn't say my 40s.
Just been an injury freak. Sohopefully by the summer.
Never too late. Never toolate. I work with Owen Collins, who's
like. He's like number one nowin the. I believe it's the 55s or

(56:02):
60s, but he won the world 45s.I worked with Owen. I used to work
with Owen. I'd fly down toHouston. It's never too late.
No, never too late, too.
So you have the buzz.
Yeah. If you enjoy it.
And if you enjoy that's. Andthat's the biggest thing the tour
has to be fun for you. That'sthe number one thing. And you have
to have the mindset to do thetraveling. Really, it's mental.

(56:23):
I'll even do a few tournamentsa year where I'm filming, getting
practice sessions do a coupleof days, I'm like, I'm out. Yeah,
because you're on side allday. It's a long day.
It's not.
You go practice for an hour,you go home with your team, you're
on site all day, and you'relike, oh, two days, I'm done. Even
the Aussie Open this year isthe same. Like, yeah, I think five,
six days filming there.
I just feeling you're done.We're out of there as soon as we

(56:44):
lose. Like, so we don't stayon site as players and coaches. We
do our practice and we're offsite. We're not sitting there. We're
not watching, having thefight. No, no, no, no, no. There's
no once we lose it.
Yeah. Don't want to talk toyou, but, Joe, thanks a lot.
Great. Good to see you again.
See you.
Good to see you. Thanks forhaving me on your show again. Appreciate
it. Thank you very much. Yeah.