May 28, 2024 • 60 mins
Navigating the stormy seas of mental health and addiction requires a seasoned captain, and Evan Jarschauer has charted these waters like no other. As our honored guest on The Fuzzy Mic, Evan, a beacon of hope in the realm of professional mental health intervention, shares his own tumultuous journey from a childhood overshadowed by divorce and abduction to his current role in guiding families toward healing. His story is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and a powerful reminder that even in our darkest moments, transformation is within reach.
This episode peels back the curtain on the delicate art of intervention, revealing the intricate dynamics of addiction, the hidden strength within crises, and the essential role of humor in the healing process. Evan and I engage in a candid conversation about the challenges faced by intervention professionals—challenges that extend far beyond what any AI or online platform can tackle. We delve into the complex relationships within families struggling with substance abuse, discussing the fine line between support and enabling and the profound impact that a united front can have on an individual's path to recovery.
As the conversation winds down, we reflect on the poignant victories and ongoing struggles inherent in dual diagnosis intervention. The joy found in hearing updates from those whose lives have been touched by our work is a beacon that illuminates the often-turbulent path of a therapist.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Fuzzy Mike, the interview series, the
podcast, whatever Kevin wants tocall it.
It's Fuzzy Mike.
Hello and thank you for joiningme on the Fuzzy Mike, your
outlet for interesting andinformative conversation on
mental health andself-improvement.
I'm your host, kevin Kline.
I want to briefly take youbehind the curtain for a moment
(00:24):
so that you get a real feel ofmy enthusiasm for today's guest.
You see, I reach out to hundredsof people each month and invite
them to be a guest on the show.
Now I can usually tell just bythe person's credentials if, a
I'll even hear back from themand B the chances that they'll
(00:45):
actually accept the invitation.
The reality is I get justslightly over a 5% response rate
and of that 5% I might book twoguests.
So when I saw the credentialshas appeared on Keeping Up With
the Kardashians, credentials hasappeared on Keeping Up with the
(01:08):
Kardashians, abc, NBC, cbs Newsand the Huffington Post, I gave
it a very low possibility thatI'd even get a reply from Evan
Jarshower, the internationallyrecognized expert in
professional mental healthintervention services.
And not only did Evan reply, heagreed to join us.
So we caught up with him whilehe was in his car in Miami.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
These are the walls of Wynwood.
I'm not familiar with that,yeah, and so it's a um re
gentrified um part of Miami thathas just taken off, because
they've painted the walls withall kinds of amazing murals and,
as you can see right here, yeah, that's gorgeous.
Yeah, so all the walls are donelike that.
(01:49):
So I just happened to be inMiami on an assignment and this
is where I am.
So this is why I am where I am.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Very cool.
I appreciate you joining me.
I want to start off by givingyou a very sincere compliment,
if you don't mind, sir.
Sure, Sure, Okay.
I have watched and interviewednumerous therapists
psychiatrists, psychologists.
I've gone to several and Ithink you are one of, if not the
most sincere therapists thatI've come across.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Oh, wow, yeah Well thank you.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I've had two psychiatrists that were just in
it for a paycheck.
I see one now who reminds me alot of you, and you remind me a
lot of him and I.
That leads me to my firstquestion is where does this
compassion and you come from?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So first let me just say what I, what I do, what I am
, and then I'll get into that,if I may, Please.
So yeah, so I am a professionalbehavioral health
interventionist and I helpfamilies that have loved ones,
and I'm also a licensedpsychotherapist and I help
families that have loved onesbattling mental health issues
(02:59):
and oftentimes in conjunctionwith some type of substance
abuse disorder, who areresisting care and in many cases
that they're so psychiatricallyor psychologically compromised
that by the nature of theirillness they're not able to
recognize they have a problem inthe first place.
So I work with their familiesand then ultimately work with
(03:23):
them to help get those peopleinto a program for care, and
then I also then work with thefamilies to help support them in
the process of their loved onesrecovery.
So that's what I do.
As far as you know where thatcomes from, I think that
everyone is impacted by theirchildhood, where they come from.
(03:45):
And for me, you know I had avery challenged challenge I
don't know if that's the rightword, but complicated childhood
where my parents got divorced.
I was really young, my fatherdidn't want to allow, or my
father felt that I should bewith him, and this was back in
(04:09):
like the mid 70s when, you know,dads didn't necessarily get the
custody or strong visitationrights and my dad ended up
taking me away and for for quitesome time.
And I think that separationfrom my mom, that kind of living
on like a refugee kind of a youknow undercover kind of thing,
(04:31):
really wanting to be able tohave that healthy family dynamic
.
So for me there is kind of amission in there where I see
myself being able to helpfamilies that are the need to
heal and need to come togetherand I use a lot of my own
pathology and my own experienceto help do that.
(04:52):
And well, yeah, that's prettymuch the foundation of, I guess,
the work that I do.
And for me, there's no question, there's plenty of addiction
stuff inside my brain and mybody, my spirit.
So for me I guess there is acertain level of addiction to
seeing to the work that I do.
(05:13):
It can be very exciting, veryemotionally, professionally
rewarding, and I'm not too goodwith downtime.
So that's my deal.
That's pretty much where I comefrom, basically, and kind of
what made me want to or drove meinto this direction of this
work that I do.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
How many people do you think obviously it's going
to be an estimate but have had achildhood trauma in their life
percentage?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
It's got to be.
It's going to be high.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Isn't it though, yeah .
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, it's high and I think it's also relative to you
.
Know how you define trauma, butyou know death, divorce, um
abuse on multiple levels, umabduction, you know abduction.
Yeah, I mean most people don'tget abducted.
I would say most people don't,but I think that, at least in my
(06:10):
world, it's definitelyextremely high, a high
percentage and for sure thatthen you know, kind of sets it
impacts people at the young age,at a young age.
It impacts people at the youngage, at a young age, and it
sometimes will set the coursefor who they end up evolve,
evolve into emotionally as anadult.
(06:31):
And so a lot of times I'mworking with people that might
have been good for a long, longtime and then some event occurs
and it kind of like rehashessome childhood something,
adolescent something, and thenoftentimes, if not properly
treated, you know, people canspiral and I come in.
(06:53):
Usually I'm coming in towardsthe middle, the end of a
spiraling situation and my jobis to help, kind of help people
come out of free fall, get themstabilized and then help set a
course for um recovery.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
That's, that's my job so how can that trauma lay
dormant for so many years andthen something triggers it
because if it's laying dormant,it's way in the back of your
subconscious and then somethingtriggers it and it manifests
itself and comes out.
How does that happen?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
well, that's a great question.
And, um, I think I'll give youan example, and without even
getting too political, but it'slike I think that just recently,
even with, like the, the covidor the corona thing, uh, the
pandemic, right, I don't want to, I don't want to undermine, I
(07:47):
don't want to call it a thing, Idon't want to undermine what it
was and what it is, but I thinkthere's no question that, um,
you know that event, uh, forsure, um was kind of like a uh
earthquake in the middle of theocean of the Pacific, where, you
(08:09):
know, on the mainland you don'tfeel it, but it starts that
wave and that wave grows and itgrows, and it grows and before
you know it, it overtakes thetown, right, and I think that,
for example, something where webelieve that we're safe, we
(08:31):
believe that, you know, for 9-11, we believe that we're the
safest place in the whole wideworld, you know, we believe
we're immune from globalpandemics, and then something
that happens and it shatters, itrattles the core of society.
It shatters, it rattles the coreof society.
And, you know, if you hadsomething inside you, for sure
(09:00):
that would be a major triggerthat would kind of flip the
switch back on to something thatmight have been previously
embedded deep within I don'twant to get too deep here, but
deeply embedded within yourpsyche, within your
psychological makeup.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
You're going through life like you think you're
perfectly well adjusted and thenall of a sudden, just shit
happens and you just spiral outof control.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Correct, and I'm seeing that along with my team.
By the way, my organization iscalled Behavioral Help Solutions
, which is behavioralhelpcom,but we're seeing this all over
the country.
We work all over the countryfrom California.
Where are you based?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
by the way, I'm based in Missouri.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
So from St Louis.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I'm originally from St Louis, but I'm living in
rural Missouri and Springfield.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Now I'm originally from St Louis, but I'm living in
rural Missouri and Springfield.
Now, from Springfield to StLouis, to Madison to Minneapolis
, all over the country, we'reseeing a unraveling of so many
people that you know were goodfundamentally, uh, together I'm
(10:03):
using just simple terms togetherfor a long, long time and may
have had some underlyingtraumatic issue or something and
that was never fully processedwork through and for sure, um,
it's coming back now, um, um,and we've've, like I said, we've
(10:25):
seen our world explodeexponentially, and not only that
, but even people that didn'tnecessarily have that underlying
traumatic event having varioustraumas earlier in life could
(10:51):
almost serve as a vaccineagainst future traumas because
your body or your mind wouldhave potentially adjusted.
So people that never haveactually experienced any type of
traumatic event coming intosomething like a global pandemic
for sure shocked the system fora lot of people.
So, whether you had some typeof underlying traumatic event
(11:13):
prior or that was the traumaticevent, there's no question that
it has impacted I couldn't evenget I mean countless multitudes
of people all over the countryand all over the world.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, I was really surprised when I read on
Behavioral Health Solutions thatyou have said that COVID has
grown your workload tremendously.
I would have thought that wouldhave come from your
high-profile intervention withKim Kardashian Did you see the
amounts of boxes she had.
That's just not a normalscenario, is that?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
the guy.
Hello, hi, how are you Courtney?
Hey Courtney, nice to meet you,nice to meet you Thanks for
coming.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Absolutely, but COVID really was the thing that
elevated your workload.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Absolutely.
I think that you know when I so, you know, with the Kardashians
, that's something for sure.
That was an amazing opportunityand you know it definitely
connected me with a lot ofpeople that I can't talked about
, but through that for sure ithelped me interconnect with a
lot of people and then fromthere, more people, more people.
(12:29):
But at the end of the day, youknow, I work in a very small
pool of professionals that arelicensed mental health
counselors, that actually dothis work in the field, because
we don't have, you know, this iswhere the office is a
psychiatric, sometimes a psychhospital.
(12:52):
Our office is sometimes on thestreets of Dallas, it's in a
casino floor.
In Vegas, it's in a beautifulchalet in Aspen, it's on the
mean streets of you name thecity, from Baltimore to Newark,
(13:13):
and we're going into homes,we're going to closets, garages,
even up into trees when peopleare trying to get away from
situations that they believe arehappening on the ground.
So they'll actually go up intothe tree and we have to kind of
help them get down sometimes.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
So your answer right, there is pretty much.
I probably don't even need toask this question, but I will
because because of COVID, butcan an intervention happen
online?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well, that's a good, that's a really good question.
And, um, you know, part of thereason that I've been able to do
this now you know, being in thefield for over two decades,
right Is I've learned that forevery action there's an equal
and opposite reaction, for everyopinion there's a counter
opinion.
And I've learned the more thatI'm able to embrace other
(14:11):
people's perspectives, the moreI'm able to help people with my
orientation.
So, as far as my belief, as faras my orientation goes, my work
is very hands-on, it's, it'sgritty, it's in the trenches and
(14:32):
, like I said, there's somethingabout that that drives me.
I'm driven to that particulartype of work.
Not everybody can stomach thatbecause you're literally, you
know I'm always in very tense,complex, complicated real life
situations.
So, you know, I think that forme, I need the tactile
(14:55):
experience I'll talk about me.
I need to be able to have thateye-eye contact.
And this is no disrespect topeople that believe that certain
intervention work can be doneonline.
I don't think that my work canbe done by artificial
intelligence, although there's alot of artificial intelligence
(15:17):
out there and it's growing andit's exploding in nature.
But I think, with my work, it'sabout quick decisions in the
field, putting out complicatedinterpersonal fires and
ultimately getting people thehelp that they need.
So I don't see the onlineintervention from my perspective
(15:38):
.
But perhaps for mothers,depending upon the level of
intensity of care, maybe it'sdifferent.
That's my politicallyappropriate answer.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
No, and it's perfectly valid and you're right
.
You know, some people seetomato, some people say tomato.
I get what we're saying here,but I would think mental health
diagnosis and stuff like that, Ithink we could do that online.
I don't think something assevere as an intervention could
happen without the personalcontact.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I believe that that's what I believe.
I believe it's a criticalelement.
But another person could arguethe point that you can have that
personal something you knowonline and there's more and more
technology to do that, but, butI, there's no, there is no,
there is no a substitute forthat human interconnectedness
(16:33):
when you're there.
And I think also for the personthat's going to get help,
that's resistant and denial,unable to see for themselves and
really feel the experience.
Having somebody there likemyself, that third party
professional, the empatheticthird party professional, I'm
very confident that makes a hugedifference in the presentation
(16:58):
and the understanding because atthe end of the day, if I wasn't
there and the person battlingsevere postpartum depression or
postpartum mania orschizophrenia or bipolar
disorder, manic, depressed orcompulsive behavior, they could
just walk over to the computerand just close it.
(17:19):
Turn it right off or pull theplug out.
Now what?
Now, what do you do?
And so I can't be closed, mypower cord can't be pulled out.
But that begs the questionbecause you are hands on and
(17:50):
situations that could veryeasily turn into a very bad, bad
situation For me.
Every single one of my cases hasthat potential, and how I work
to carefully mitigate the risk,the danger, is a critical
(18:14):
element of the work that I do.
So that's why and I also workin a very litigious environment
as well litigious environment aswell I also work in an
environment where me going outto help people, you know some
it's delicate because you knowyou're also walking into
people's personal lives andcomplicated stories and issues
(18:40):
that potentially will put you inthe firing, in the line of fire
.
That potentially will put youin the firing, in the line of
fire.
So what I've learned?
To be very careful, even with aquestion like that.
Um, it's so.
The simple answer to yourquestion is that there isn't a
case that I've had.
I don't have any cases wherethere is no potential for things
(19:00):
to get.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Oh okay, Legally you have to say that.
I get that.
But if you talk to a policeofficer, they say that the worst
thing to do is have to go to adomestic situation.
You're going to a domesticsituation every time.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
So it's very, very challenging, I will.
You know, here's some key, youknow keywords weapons, physical
violence, bodily fluids, yeah,cutlery.
(19:50):
There's a lot of things you gotto be conscious of, even when
you're, even when you're workingwith somebody who has, um,
various, uh, black belts indifferent martial arts and they
are battling some type of mentalissue.
You know, um also, I will help.
One thing that I think is acritical part of the work that I
do now that we're just kind ofgetting into that a little bit,
is you just have to turn on theTV.
Almost every week, at least oncea week, there's a case where a
(20:13):
family, a mother, a father, evensometimes the person in crisis,
calls 911 because their lovedone's having some type of
episode.
The law enforcement comes inand we need our law enforcement
and I love our law enforcement.
Law enforcement comes in.
There's no buddy there to kindof manage that individual.
(20:35):
The law enforcement officer hasas much mental health training
as they can possibly have, butthey also have a responsibility
to protect themselves and others, to protect themselves and
others, and so you see thosecases.
All the time where lawenforcement is called, they come
in, and just recently there wasone where you hear the mom
scream crying please don't killmy son, please don't kill my son
(20:58):
.
And unfortunately her son waskilled by law enforcement.
And I will say that in my cases,safety is always a critical
element of the work that I doand, like I said, trying to
mitigate the risk as much aspossible, but in all my cases
(21:19):
there's there's there is quite abit of risk.
When you're dealing withsomebody who is having an
episode out of control requireshelp.
Families oftentimes have triedto handle this themselves and
one of the fears they have iscalling for help because they
see things can go really, reallyhaywire very easily, very
(21:48):
easily.
So the answer to your questionis I'm always walking into
situations where the risk ishigh and the need to be able to
carefully mitigate risk dangeris always and maximize safety is
always a critical element ofthe work that I do.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
I'm talking with Evan Jarschauer.
You can go to evan atbehavioralhelpcom.
A lot of questions that can beunraveled from that answer that
you just gave.
I'll start with the one that'sfirst and foremost on my mind
Are police as equipped as theycould be, or should be, to deal
with mental health crises?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, it's a great another great question, and you
know it's so complicated because, at the end of the day, you
know someone law enforcement.
I think their job is to enforcethe law right, but there's no
question that more and more it'sbeing intertwined with also
(22:42):
understanding mental health lawand dealing with people that
have mental health issues.
I think that I can't speak onbehalf of how law enforcement
agencies are funded or should befunded, but there's no question
that every single lawenforcement agent that is in the
(23:07):
field, if possible, shouldreceive some level of training
in dealing with working withpeople with mental health issues
, especially people with mentalhealth issues who are escalated.
So I can only tell you thatwhat I've learned through the
years is that level of trainingis also, in many cases, limited
(23:30):
to the resources available toprovide that training, and so,
at the end of the day, it's justnot a perfect system, law
enforcement agencies requiringsome level of mental health
training for their personnel.
(23:50):
I'm seeing that definitely on arise, even where there are
certain classifications of lawenforcement agents that do have
that specialized training.
But I think, without question,more is needed.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
My psychiatrist told me a long time ago 20% of the
population is on some sort ofmental health medication, 80%
needs to be.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
That sounds like it could make sense.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah Well, you go to an intervention, you've been
called to an intervention, yousit down, you meet with the
family.
Is there ever a time where,because an intervention is
because somebody loves and caresabout the person who's
destroying themselves correct,yes, that's correct.
You go there to talk to aperson who's addicted, okay, yep
(24:42):
, with this person, you find outthat the mom or the dad or the
brother or sister is the onewho's enabling this behavior,
and so you literally have toturn your attention to this
person who's giving them the goahead, the drugs, the money,
whatever, and say you know what?
This is an intervention for twopeople, not just one.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, well, that's all the time.
Absolutely, really yeah, allthe time, because at the end of
the day, you know the how longsomebody stays sick is also
interconnected with how thepeople that surround that
(25:27):
individual handle the situation.
There's definitely acorrelation between the two, and
so, in many cases, I'm workingon a case where a family member
would rather provide booze ordope to somebody instead of
(25:52):
having them out on the streetand buying it, and you know,
from somebody who could end uphurting them.
I have that all the time, andyou know.
So.
What I've learned over theyears is this that I've actually
stayed away from the termenabling.
Okay, and I'll tell you thereason why, please.
(26:13):
So I don't know if you have anykids or nephews or family, I'm
assuming maybe you do.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I've got nieces and nephews, no kids of my own.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That's fine.
Let's go with some of thosenieces and nephews no, kids of
my own, that's fine.
Let's go with some of thosenieces and nephews.
And one of those was struggling.
Your instinct kicks in to help.
Now, how you, how that, howwhat drives that instinct?
That's the challenge.
So, at the end of the day,rather than enabling, it's more
(26:49):
of instinct.
My loved one is suffering.
I'm going to help, and that'sfor me oftentimes a challenge,
because that help sometimesmeans that they're giving them
dope or giving them money andturning away, you know, letting
them stay in the home and using,because the argument is I would
(27:11):
rather them be in my home anduse than be on the streets and
end up dead.
I'd rather be able to keep aneye on them.
So I don't.
I kind of stay away from theenabling thing and look at it
more in terms of I get it.
You love your son, yourdaughter, your husband, your
(27:32):
wife, your cousin, your niece,your nephew, and so therefore,
you're trying to keep them safe,yeah, and you're trying to
mitigate the, the, the dangers,the dangers, the problem.
The problem with that,unfortunately, is you're also
perpetuating the underlyingdisease or issue, or addiction
(27:52):
or um, by providing them thewherewithal and the resources to
continue to use.
Yeah, so there is that level ofeducating, um and really trying
to.
It's almost like the art of war, but in a very loving,
supportive, therapeuticperspective.
(28:15):
The best way to get rid of yourenemy is to make them your
friend.
Now, I don't know if you wrotethat, but I'm sure in some of
his writings he wrote that, butI'm sure in some of his writings
it's in there somewhere.
And so what I've learned to dois, rather than say, what are
you doing?
How, why are you I never usethe word why why are you giving
(28:39):
him 50 bucks a week?
Why are you letting him stay inthe house?
I get it, I get.
You want them safe.
You don't want to see him theneedles safe.
You don't want to see him theneedles.
You don't want to see him usedirty needles.
You don't want them to have herto have a debt on the street.
You don't want to have.
You don't want to see them sellthemselves so that they can get
a fix, and for that reason thisis what you're doing.
(29:01):
Let's find a way to work aroundthat and because, unfortunately
, you may end up finding themcold anyway, you might find you
may lose them anyway, yeah, soif you're going to go down,
let's go down with a fight andlet's work together and find
some solutions where we increasethe probability that we'll get
(29:24):
them the help that they need,we'll mitigate the resistance
and ultimately we'll help themget on to the road to recovery.
Because the people that becausethey depend on you to help
guide them and support them toget better, they need you to
kind of lead the way and leadthe charge.
So if they see that you'regiving in to the sick part of
(29:48):
their being, then unfortunatelymy hands are kind of tied.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
That answer sounds to me like an intervention is just
not a one time visit.
There should be, or could be,multiple visits.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, well, there's multiple contacts for sure, OK
there, there, there maytypically, I have you know,
there's multiple contacts, forsure there may.
typically, I have you know,there's the pre-intervention,
which is the physical on theground with the family and the
loved ones, co-workers, and thenthe in support of the
intervention.
But at the end of the day,there are multiple Zoom calls,
conference calls.
(30:23):
We are prior and after theintervention to deal with the
(30:50):
issues team to support theobjective of seeing their loved
one not only go to get help butreally create a unified support
system to help increase theprobability that they will be
compliant with carepost-treatment.
So yeah, I do that all the time.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
What would you call the person that is the subject
of the intervention?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
We call them the identified person.
I stay away from the termpatient because I'm really I'm
really not providing therapeuticservices.
Okay, I'm providing a more of aconsultant, um, uh, as opposed
to a uh, a therapist, because wereally want that individual to
(31:27):
receive the therapeutic servicesin the program or with the
providers that are, you know,that are selected for their care
.
So we call them the identifiedperson.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
How many of the identified persons that you've
worked with actually know orrealize they have a problem?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I would say, by the time that I'm called in.
All of them, really, yeah, allof them.
But to further your question, Ithink it's out of all the
people that you go to help, howmany are willing to admit that
they have a problem?
How many are willing?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
to admit that they have a problem?
Yeah, that's the question.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, yeah, and that's that changes the, that
changes the numbers considerably, because they all know there's
a problem they all have, theyall know that there's a problem
and I think that's when thenumbers go down significantly.
You know, we might be in the.
It's a very low number of thepeople that you know, very low
(32:33):
number of people that I get inthere and they go like this Wow,
I'm so glad you came, because Ihave a problem and you know I
was kind of stuck and I'm gladyou're here to help my family
get unstuck and help me and kindof guide this through.
It's a very, it's a very, verylow number.
Every so often I do, and it'swonderful when that happens, but
(32:54):
most of the time it doesn't.
Most of the time, you know, youknow, a lot of times I hear the
statement from the person I'mgoing to get help, you know,
don't you know?
Don't you know that nobody isgoing to go get help until
they're ready to go get help,and and then I channel Tommy Lee
(33:15):
Jones in the fugitive.
Now, now I got to be realcareful with this because I
cannot say this in adisrespectful manner.
This is going to be said in avery respectful manner.
So when a family member or afriend or even an identified
(33:36):
person says you know, you'rejust wasting my family's time,
energy, money and all that stuff, you got paid right like that I
did and we're going to get youhelp.
So, for example, in the moviethe fugitive if you did, you see
it.
Oh yeah, okay.
So tom lee jones is chasing drrichard kimball and they're in
(33:57):
this like aqueduct thing by adam right yep and uh timely
jones's weapon.
He's a federal marshal, hardcorefederal marshal, don't mess
with him.
He's smart, he's like and he'srunning after, and, um, his uh,
sidearm falls out.
And who picks it up?
But Dr Richard Kimball.
(34:18):
Dr Richard Kimball is standingin front of the opening of the,
the, the dam from the aqueduct,and he points the gun, the
weapon, at the federal marshalplayed by Tom Lee Jones and he
says remember what he said.
I didn't kill my wife.
And then, with his hands up inthe air, what did Tom Lee Jones
(34:40):
say to Dr Richard Kimball?
I don't care, he did not meanthat in a disrespectful manner.
He wasn't trying to be cocky orbelligerent.
His message to Dr RichardKimball was listen, I'm here to
see that justice is served.
I'm not here to judge you.
I'm not here to be your judge,jury, whatever.
(35:02):
I just want to make sure, atthe end of the day, that I get
my man safely back to the systemyou know, and they can go ahead
and process and figure this out.
I'm not, I don't mean you anydisrespect, dr Richard Kimball,
but you're going to, but I amgoing to get you and you're
going to come with me and if not, you're going to have to do
what you got to do.
(35:23):
It was a calculated arrest thatthe federal marshal took, at
which point dr richard kimballends up dropping the weapon
because he could shoot him.
And what did that?
What did he end up doing, quoteunquote.
According to the federalmarshal, it did a peter pan off
of this aqueduct, yeah, anyway.
So at the end of the day, um,you know, I have many cases
(35:48):
where the person will saythey're not going to get help
until the family, friends, orthe person says they're not
going to get help until I'mready, oriented towards who I am
(36:09):
as a person, rather than youhave to spend another decade of
establishing a more robustbottom, let's get you some help
right now.
I hear you I'm not judging youAt the end of the day, um, you
(36:30):
are suffering, you know that,and as far as you believing that
you need more time to suffer,um, I can't, I can't let, I
can't, just can't let you dothat.
Yeah, and I'm gonna help getyou some help to do that.
Yeah, and I'm going to help getyou some help.
So, for that reason, I'm goingto keep going until we get you
(36:50):
some help.
That's the, that's kind of theorientation that I have, okay.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
And, of the identified persons that you work
with, how many of them aresurprised to see you and how
many of them are not surprisedto see you?
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Well, it depends on the case.
It really depends on it.
I don't have a number for youon that, but I can definitely
say that even when somebodyappears surprised, are you that
surprised that your mother oryour father or your husband or
your wife couldn't watch youhurt yourself any further?
(37:25):
How many cries for help?
I mean, at the end of the dayyou were crying for help left
and right.
I'm, I'm just the um, I'm themanifestation of your cries.
So maybe you're surprised tosee my face.
I know it's not that pretty,but at the end of the day, I
(37:51):
don't think you're so surprisedthat your family and the people
that love you the most theydon't love me Okay, the people
that are around you that theywanted to see that you got some
help and they didn't want towait another day, not another
night, not another horriblephone call from some state
trooper.
They want to see that you gethelp today because they love you
(38:14):
and they feel that you deserveit, and they deserve it too.
They deserve the opportunity tohave this amazing, healthy
relationship with you, so thatyour kids can have a parent, so
that your brother can have hisbrother, your mother can have
the mom can have a parent, sothat your brother can have his
brother, your mother can havethe mom can have a relationship
with her children, her husband.
So I'm here because this is, atthe end of the day, what you've
(38:40):
been crying out for.
That's when the person goesShut up or they go, or they go.
Okay, I get it.
I very rarely have a case when Ivery rarely have a case where
someone is like everything wasjust great, everything was
wonderful, and I have noconceptualization at all of your
(39:02):
purpose for being here.
I don't ever have those cases.
Wow, there's always.
Even in the mental health casesyou you still have, there's
still an understanding thatthings aren't so good and you're
here because there's a problem.
I don't have those cases whereyou know what this is.
Wow, I'm shocked.
I don't have those.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Well, that's funny because I'm equating this
particular part of theconversation to what John
Mulaney said about his ownintervention.
So you come to the intervention, you go through the whole thing
you don't know, it's anintervention when you come to it
.
Right, I thought it was dinnerwith two friends from college.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Right, it was not, it was not.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And you were like two hours late for that dinner.
I was two hours late for thatdinner, but an intervention for
me and I'm thinking I don't needthis.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
At first that's what his answer was.
Sure, I get it, I get it.
But upon further reflection I'mconfident.
He was like OK, yeah, I don'thave any.
I don't have any cases wherethe person goes like wow, this
is perfect timing, doesn'thappen, does not happen how much
does humor play?
Speaker 1 (40:08):
uh, how much can humor play into our recovery,
our development, mentally I mean, because melanie's just made a
whole act out of it now andthat's the way I deal with my
childhood trauma is throughcomedy.
How much can humor play a rolein our, in our healing?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
uh, another delicate question because, um, what
you're seeing is like over twodecades of my evolution as a
practitioner, right Of aninterventionist.
And so, at the end of the day,um, being able to use my own
warped of humor, I believe, isan essential component of me
(40:51):
being able to keep my sanity andkeep it together under some of
the most stressful, complex,complicated situations.
But I've also learned that noteverybody has a warped sense of
humor and not everybody, noteverybody, appreciates my sense
of humor.
But I've learned how to kind ofgauge it and to try to find the
(41:13):
lighter moments that that seemmore universal in nature, and I
think that if it was all justpressure, pressure, pressure,
pressure, I think that thatwould just eventually make
everything just that much moretense and more tense, pressure
(41:35):
filled.
So I've used, I've learned tobe able to use levity, not in a
demeaning or demoralizing, youknow, manner, but more so the
humanness of the experience andbeing able to take a very
complicated, uncomfortable,tense situation and, you know,
(42:01):
be able to kind of shed somelight on that moment.
The person says, for example,you know, um, you know before, I
need to think about this, Ineed to go grab something you
know to eat before, so I canthink about this and I go.
You know I'm I'm starving too,man, let's go grab a bite and
(42:22):
the family's like what you know.
That's just kind of a simpleexample.
But being able to use, use thatlighter side, join the person
in their experience and be human, I think that's a critical
element of making this whole, atleast my world, work.
If not, it would all just beintensity, intensity, intensity,
(42:45):
no release and just a realcombative, complex air.
And I try to use my levity, myhumor, to kind of let a little
bit of that tension out,delicately and thoughtfully in
the process.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah, it's got to be a delicate situation because
humor and entertainment is sosubjective it's probably the
most subjective thing on theplanet and if you think
something's funny, nine out of10 might not think it's funny,
and so you know.
Yeah, it's a balance that yougot to tightrope.
Is there one addiction that'sworse than another?
Speaker 2 (43:23):
You know, I think for me there is no there there that
are.
There is not one.
That I find is easier.
But but I will say thissometimes the addictions to
substances that are legal orprescribed by a physician, those
can be some of the morechallenging because oftentimes
(43:46):
the identified person would sayit's legal or it's prescribed by
my physician.
So how is this bad?
I'm using it as prescribed, butyou're also maybe drinking
along with the medication, oryou're using two different
medications together that arecounter affecting each other.
But those are some of the mostdifficult ones.
(44:10):
I'll give you an exampleNicotine super super.
You know I don't get called infor interventions for nicotine,
but it's definitely from.
You know, it's super hardaddiction to break.
Alcohol, it's everywhere.
So for the person that's tryingto so you have somebody who has
(44:31):
a cocaine addiction or agambling addiction no, yeah,
they would have the hardest timestaying, I'm sorry, hardest
time staying away from alcohol.
You can stay away from casinos,right?
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
You can stay away from Coke dealers, but it's
really, really hard to stay awayfrom alcohol when it's in
supermarkets.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
How has the legalization of marijuana
affected the caseload.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Right.
So where my world really beganto explode, it wasn't COVID.
It was when weed began, thedecriminalization, the
destigmatization not being astigma anymore.
(45:16):
Yeah, right, without question,weed is the number one drug,
intersected, interconnected,intertwined, in my work, for
sure, and that is, you know, atthe end of the day, there's no,
(45:39):
there's no argument.
I don't think it's, I don'tthink you can make an argument
that weed doesn't have medicinalqualities.
There are medicinal qualitieswith weed, absolutely, and for
some people it is a wonder drug,wonder medication, wonder
ointment.
The problem is that for a lotof people that have other
(46:01):
underlying mental health issues,weed is like a switch and it
turns on a dragon, like a fire,a fire breathing dragon that you
had deeply embedded within yourbrain and it lets it loose.
And so, and that's, if you'rejust taking whatever is
prescribed to you, whateveredible, whatever, uh, you're
(46:24):
smoking, at the end of the day,um, that's probably, like I said
, the number one challengingsubstance of uh substance use
issue that's affecting people'smental health.
Um, and and also I'm seeing alot of that, where they're not
abusing it, it's just the dosethat you take.
(46:44):
It may just be enough tosignificantly impact your
thinking and impair your, uh,your moods, um, and I'm seeing
that left and right.
The challenging thing with weedis that there's such a um social
component with with smokingweed or consuming edibles.
(47:09):
It is kind of a there's asocietal shift.
There's a societal shift whereit's um, it's accepted, it's
cool, it's in, and to not beable to smoke weed it's kind of
like back in the day when peoplewould have business meetings
and having a few drinks was partof the business meeting.
(47:32):
Right Today, and I guesscurrent social or corporate
culture with regard to drinking,they've got policies on
drinking and policies ondrinking with in a business
meeting, but I think that weedhas become such an accepted part
of you know, uh, society withculture and so, for that reason,
(47:59):
if you're not, if you're theone that can't smoke weed, it's
almost like in many cases atleast the feedback I'm getting
as well you can't fit in.
Yeah, and that's can, that's,that can be socially
debilitating and make youawkward.
Um, it's kind of like going,it's like, it's almost like.
The analogy would be the kidwith diabetes going to the
(48:23):
birthday party and can't havethe cake right um, it's not that
the cake is going to well.
The cake could kill you, Right?
But the weed may not kill you,but your behaviors associated
with your consumption of thatmight put you and everyone
around you in jeopardy.
So that's kind of what'shappening with the weed scene,
at least from what I'm seeing.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Is there such a thing as a healthy addiction?
Speaker 2 (48:45):
In my.
I think that anything and thisis you know.
I'll make a simple statementfirst.
I think anything to an excessis no good.
It's not good, not safe, nothealthy.
But I think that so many of theamazing things that we've all,
all the technologicalaccomplishments, all the amazing
(49:08):
things that have been done bypeople in the arts and
technology, you know, bysomebody that had a passion and
maybe was addicted to whatevertheir passion was and they
couldn't stop doing it and thatdrove them that like that.
So I think that I think, ifit's something that takes you
away from being able to live aproductive, happy, healthy life,
(49:33):
then I think yeah, then I thinkit would be a bad thing.
But I think if you're addictedto like I'm addicted to this
work, I'll admit it, I love it.
I love this, the feeling ofgetting that call, you know,
going out to help the familycrisis, being able to establish
order, get people help, you knowit's.
(49:55):
It really is a very coolfeeling, on top of the fact that
what I do to provide my family.
So I'm a lucky, very lucky guythere.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
The other thing, too, that I heard you say before is
that your line of work actuallyhelps you with your own mental
stability.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Oh yeah, absolutely Without, without question.
Um, like I said before, I'm notso good with downtime Uh, it's,
you know.
And so, without question this,it's not that I feel better when
I see people not doing well,that's not the case at all.
It's that, for me, that senseof purpose really helps my
(50:39):
mental health, helps me withfeelings of depression or
anxiety.
It really helps me stay levelthat I know that I'm actually a
productive, engaging participantin making a difference.
So there's a very, there's ahuge sense of connectedness with
(51:01):
that work that I do and helpingme maintain my emotional
equilibrium.
It's crazy, in a way, becauseI'm walking into situations that
are like out of controlsometimes and people will look
at me and say what's wrong withyou?
Why is this guy?
Well, he's that way becauseit's really not his family.
(51:24):
That's not necessarily the case.
It's just more so that I am inthat moment, really feeling how
it's kind of like in many ways.
Do you ever see those um I'lluse another movie reference um,
and this is not about me killingpeople, okay, so don't think
that.
Why would you even say that?
But uh, but no, but, like inthe equalizer movies, withzel,
(51:49):
who I love as he, or even theBourne identity.
Like Jason Bourne, Right.
When he walks into a room he'scalculating.
You know he's looking lookingat the doors, looking at this,
checking this, out the angles,because he has a plan.
His plan is dangerous and youknow like they're gonna fight
(52:10):
and stuff.
You know jiu-jitsu but, um, youknow, I, in many ways, as I'm
in the situation, I'm alsolooking at the various.
Sometimes I am looking at theexits but, um, you know, I'm
looking at the differentscenarios and different people
and how I can best move thingsaround to achieve the goal,
(52:30):
ultimate goal, of helping thisperson and doing in the most
loving, supportive andcomprehensive way.
I don't know what your questionwas, but I felt good.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
No, I was talking about how your own mental
stability is helped by yeah,yeah, absolutely, and that keeps
.
That helps me keep my headtogether.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
Yeah, absolutely, and that keeps.
That helps me keep my headtogether.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, that's the same thing with me hosting this
podcast that now has asignificant concentration on
mental health and personaldevelopment.
I mean, I've, I've been seeingpsychiatrists since 1995, evan,
and so, yeah, you would thinkthat I would be an expert, but I
(53:12):
, brother, I got to tell you.
Man, going back to the veryfirst thing that we talked about
in this conversation, uh, youmade a light go off for me, and
you made a light go off for meOne of the cool things that I
read about you and we've beentalking about interventions,
because that's what EvanJarschauer does, uh, along with,
uh, mental health, uh therapy,but it doesn't need to be an
addiction that can require anintervention.
You can do it for mentalillness, you can do it for
(53:33):
chronic depression, you canactually do it to help offset
school violence and in massshootings.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
That's a great question and I think that I've
had, I've had a lot of caseswhere, had somebody stayed on
the trajectory, they were on,they might have been a good
candidate for somebody thatmight have done something like
that, wow.
So yeah, absolutely I've neverhad an intervention per se where
it was somebody who was, youknow, shooting up schools, yeah,
(54:07):
but but for sure I've had manycases where there were people
that had they continued on inthe trajectory, they were on
with their compulsive behaviors,with their delusions.
Something bad could havehappened, like that.
We'll never know, hopefullywe'll never.
We'll never know, hopefullywe'll never.
(54:27):
But but for sure you know, likeI said, I specialize in the
dual diagnosis intervention orthe even just a straight mental
health intervention.
But the dual diagnosisintervention where somebody is
dealing with some underlyingmental health issue depression,
anxiety, severe mood swings,ptsd and they are oftentimes
(54:55):
self-medicating with some typeof mood-altering substance,
whether it's in to help manage,deal with, coordinate,
facilitate the person from wherethey are out of control in
(55:17):
crisis, establish order, helpthem get help and work with the
family to support that processmoving forward.
That's my job.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
How many of your prior cases actually keep in
touch with you and tell youabout their progress?
Speaker 2 (55:33):
You know it varies.
I can't, I couldn't give you aspecific number on that, but a
lot do.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
A lot do and it comes in different waves, in
different stages.
So you know, I might not hearfrom somebody for quite some
time and then I'll get a textmessage, um, for example.
Hey, evan, just want to let youknow, um, I just finished
college and but wait, I stillthink you're a two headed snake.
(56:03):
But I want to thank you.
Oh my gosh.
Really oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Iget those every so often, you
know.
Or or the family will say youknow what she's doing, great,
she, she's back with the kidsand you know I get those.
So those are you know, but they, they, they get peppered in
(56:25):
with my.
Sometimes, in some of my mostdifficult, challenging days,
I'll get a, a text message.
You, in some of my mostdifficult, challenging days,
I'll get a text message, youknow, and I'm like, okay, I can
make it, you know, it helps.
Those really do help.
By the way, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
Oh, they definitely help.
Oh, for sure that's got to bethe most satisfying part of your
work, Super, yeah.
Well, you know what man, I havehad a blast talking to you.
Well, you know what man, I havehad a blast talking to you.
I knew this was going to be anawesome conversation and I can't
thank you enough for gettingback with me and saying that
you'd be available, because Ihonestly didn't think you would
be given your credentials with.
You know all the ABC, nbc, cbsNews, huffington Post,
(56:59):
kardashians, which we didn'teven really talk about.
Is shopping a real addiction?
Speaker 2 (57:03):
Absolutely, absolutely, when at that time
when you are, you know you arewell exceeding your income.
However, in that particularcase, the end of the day, the
income exploded.
Yeah, so you know, butabsolutely it is for families
(57:27):
where especially well, I can goon and on, but there's the
answer, simple answer is yes, ifit affects people's ability to
provide for their families, ifit becomes something that's
consuming a bulk of their time,for sure it can be a real deal
addiction.
Speaker 1 (57:43):
Hey, how can people get in touch with you, evan, at
behavioral helpcom?
Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah, that's my email .
Evan at behavioral help.
It's help, not health.
Evan at behavioral helpcom.
Um, and then you can find methere.
We've got a bunch of socialmedia stuff and um, but that's
probably the easiest way to findme.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
Also, uh, go to life hackcom and you can read 13,.
Uh, and you can read 13articles that Evan has written,
each one more fascinating andmore helpful than the next.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (58:11):
You're welcome, brother.
Speaker 2 (58:12):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
If you're seeing a mental health provider and you
go into the office and the visitgoes something like this your
blood pressure looks good, youmust be feeling better, right?
Yeah, things are good right now.
Good, see you in another 16weeks.
Then it's time to find someonelike Evan.
I mentioned earlier in theconversation that Evan reminded
(58:34):
me of my psychiatrist, now Derek, and that there's actual
sincerity and genuine concernfrom them.
Even when I've been on a run ofstability and lower depression,
derek still asks me questionsabout my life.
Run of stability and lowerdepression Derek still asks me
questions about my life.
He wants to know what'shappening in the good times as
well as in the bad times.
In fact, I'm not going to lie,I see him taking more notes
(58:58):
during the uneventful visitsthan he does when there are
actually issues to discuss.
That's the kind of personyou're looking for when you're
searching for a therapist.
That's the kind of personyou're looking for when you're
searching for a therapist.
My thanks to Evan for joiningus Again.
You can reach out to Evan atEvan E-V-A-N.
At BehavioralHelpcomBehavioralHelpcom H-E-L-P.
(59:20):
My thanks again to you forlistening.
My weekly request is this thatyou like, follow, subscribe,
rate and share the fuzzy mic tohelp grow the numbers of people
that we can help.
We're all in this fighttogether.
Nobody fights alone.
If laughter is your favoritekind of medicine, well then
check out the Tuttle Klinepodcast, where my longtime radio
(59:43):
partner, tim Tuttle, and I well, we've teamed up to give you
the style of show we did behindthe scenes during our 25 years
together on commercial radio.
Parameters, none Filters, noneLaughs.
Well, plenty.
New episodes post everyWednesday.
The Fuzzy Mic is hosted andproduced by Kevin Klein,
(01:00:04):
production elements by ZachSheish at the Radio Farm.
Social media director is TrishKlein.
I'd love to hear from youSuggestions, comments or even
ideas for the show.
Email thefuzzymic at gmailcom.
See you next Tuesday and thankyou again for being here.
I don't know why I look at themicrophone.
It's not like you're there.
(01:00:24):
You're there, I'm an idiot.
That's it for the Fuzzy Mic.
Thank you.
The Fuzzy Mike with Kevin Kline.
Welcome to the Fuzzy Mike, the interview series, the
podcast, whatever Kevin wants tocall it.
It's Fuzzy Mike.
Hello and thank you for joiningme on the Fuzzy Mike, your
outlet for interesting andinformative conversation on
mental health andself-improvement.
I'm your host, kevin Kline.
I want to briefly take youbehind the curtain for a moment
(00:24):
so that you get a real feel ofmy enthusiasm for today's guest.
You see, I reach out to hundredsof people each month and invite
them to be a guest on the show.
Now I can usually tell just bythe person's credentials if, a
I'll even hear back from themand B the chances that they'll
(00:45):
actually accept the invitation.
The reality is I get justslightly over a 5% response rate
and of that 5% I might book twoguests.
So when I saw the credentialshas appeared on Keeping Up With
the Kardashians, credentials hasappeared on Keeping Up with the
(01:08):
Kardashians, abc, NBC, cbs Newsand the Huffington Post, I gave
it a very low possibility thatI'd even get a reply from Evan
Jarshower, the internationallyrecognized expert in
professional mental healthintervention services.
And not only did Evan reply, heagreed to join us.
So we caught up with him whilehe was in his car in Miami.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
These are the walls of Wynwood.
I'm not familiar with that,yeah, and so it's a um re
gentrified um part of Miami thathas just taken off, because
they've painted the walls withall kinds of amazing murals and,
as you can see right here, yeah, that's gorgeous.
Yeah, so all the walls are donelike that.
(01:49):
So I just happened to be inMiami on an assignment and this
is where I am.
So this is why I am where I am.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Very cool.
I appreciate you joining me.
I want to start off by givingyou a very sincere compliment,
if you don't mind, sir.
Sure, Sure, Okay.
I have watched and interviewednumerous therapists
psychiatrists, psychologists.
I've gone to several and Ithink you are one of, if not the
most sincere therapists thatI've come across.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Oh, wow, yeah Well thank you.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I've had two psychiatrists that were just in
it for a paycheck.
I see one now who reminds me alot of you, and you remind me a
lot of him and I.
That leads me to my firstquestion is where does this
compassion and you come from?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So first let me just say what I, what I do, what I am
, and then I'll get into that,if I may, Please.
So yeah, so I am a professionalbehavioral health
interventionist and I helpfamilies that have loved ones,
and I'm also a licensedpsychotherapist and I help
families that have loved onesbattling mental health issues
(02:59):
and oftentimes in conjunctionwith some type of substance
abuse disorder, who areresisting care and in many cases
that they're so psychiatricallyor psychologically compromised
that by the nature of theirillness they're not able to
recognize they have a problem inthe first place.
So I work with their familiesand then ultimately work with
(03:23):
them to help get those peopleinto a program for care, and
then I also then work with thefamilies to help support them in
the process of their loved onesrecovery.
So that's what I do.
As far as you know where thatcomes from, I think that
everyone is impacted by theirchildhood, where they come from.
(03:45):
And for me, you know I had avery challenged challenge I
don't know if that's the rightword, but complicated childhood
where my parents got divorced.
I was really young, my fatherdidn't want to allow, or my
father felt that I should bewith him, and this was back in
(04:09):
like the mid 70s when, you know,dads didn't necessarily get the
custody or strong visitationrights and my dad ended up
taking me away and for for quitesome time.
And I think that separationfrom my mom, that kind of living
on like a refugee kind of a youknow undercover kind of thing,
(04:31):
really wanting to be able tohave that healthy family dynamic
.
So for me there is kind of amission in there where I see
myself being able to helpfamilies that are the need to
heal and need to come togetherand I use a lot of my own
pathology and my own experienceto help do that.
(04:52):
And well, yeah, that's prettymuch the foundation of, I guess,
the work that I do.
And for me, there's no question, there's plenty of addiction
stuff inside my brain and mybody, my spirit.
So for me I guess there is acertain level of addiction to
seeing to the work that I do.
(05:13):
It can be very exciting, veryemotionally, professionally
rewarding, and I'm not too goodwith downtime.
So that's my deal.
That's pretty much where I comefrom, basically, and kind of
what made me want to or drove meinto this direction of this
work that I do.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
How many people do you think obviously it's going
to be an estimate but have had achildhood trauma in their life
percentage?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
It's got to be.
It's going to be high.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Isn't it though, yeah .
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, it's high and I think it's also relative to you
.
Know how you define trauma, butyou know death, divorce, um
abuse on multiple levels, umabduction, you know abduction.
Yeah, I mean most people don'tget abducted.
I would say most people don't,but I think that, at least in my
(06:10):
world, it's definitelyextremely high, a high
percentage and for sure thatthen you know, kind of sets it
impacts people at the young age,at a young age.
It impacts people at the youngage, at a young age, and it
sometimes will set the coursefor who they end up evolve,
evolve into emotionally as anadult.
(06:31):
And so a lot of times I'mworking with people that might
have been good for a long, longtime and then some event occurs
and it kind of like rehashessome childhood something,
adolescent something, and thenoftentimes, if not properly
treated, you know, people canspiral and I come in.
(06:53):
Usually I'm coming in towardsthe middle, the end of a
spiraling situation and my jobis to help, kind of help people
come out of free fall, get themstabilized and then help set a
course for um recovery.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
That's, that's my job so how can that trauma lay
dormant for so many years andthen something triggers it
because if it's laying dormant,it's way in the back of your
subconscious and then somethingtriggers it and it manifests
itself and comes out.
How does that happen?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
well, that's a great question.
And, um, I think I'll give youan example, and without even
getting too political, but it'slike I think that just recently,
even with, like the, the covidor the corona thing, uh, the
pandemic, right, I don't want to, I don't want to undermine, I
(07:47):
don't want to call it a thing, Idon't want to undermine what it
was and what it is, but I thinkthere's no question that, um,
you know that event, uh, forsure, um was kind of like a uh
earthquake in the middle of theocean of the Pacific, where, you
(08:09):
know, on the mainland you don'tfeel it, but it starts that
wave and that wave grows and itgrows, and it grows and before
you know it, it overtakes thetown, right, and I think that,
for example, something where webelieve that we're safe, we
(08:31):
believe that, you know, for 9-11, we believe that we're the
safest place in the whole wideworld, you know, we believe
we're immune from globalpandemics, and then something
that happens and it shatters, itrattles the core of society.
It shatters, it rattles the coreof society.
And, you know, if you hadsomething inside you, for sure
(09:00):
that would be a major triggerthat would kind of flip the
switch back on to something thatmight have been previously
embedded deep within I don'twant to get too deep here, but
deeply embedded within yourpsyche, within your
psychological makeup.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
You're going through life like you think you're
perfectly well adjusted and thenall of a sudden, just shit
happens and you just spiral outof control.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Correct, and I'm seeing that along with my team.
By the way, my organization iscalled Behavioral Help Solutions
, which is behavioralhelpcom,but we're seeing this all over
the country.
We work all over the countryfrom California.
Where are you based?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
by the way, I'm based in Missouri.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
So from St Louis.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I'm originally from St Louis, but I'm living in
rural Missouri and Springfield.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Now I'm originally from St Louis, but I'm living in
rural Missouri and Springfield.
Now, from Springfield to StLouis, to Madison to Minneapolis
, all over the country, we'reseeing a unraveling of so many
people that you know were goodfundamentally, uh, together I'm
(10:03):
using just simple terms togetherfor a long, long time and may
have had some underlyingtraumatic issue or something and
that was never fully processedwork through and for sure, um,
it's coming back now, um, um,and we've've, like I said, we've
(10:25):
seen our world explodeexponentially, and not only that
, but even people that didn'tnecessarily have that underlying
traumatic event having varioustraumas earlier in life could
(10:51):
almost serve as a vaccineagainst future traumas because
your body or your mind wouldhave potentially adjusted.
So people that never haveactually experienced any type of
traumatic event coming intosomething like a global pandemic
for sure shocked the system fora lot of people.
So, whether you had some typeof underlying traumatic event
(11:13):
prior or that was the traumaticevent, there's no question that
it has impacted I couldn't evenget I mean countless multitudes
of people all over the countryand all over the world.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, I was really surprised when I read on
Behavioral Health Solutions thatyou have said that COVID has
grown your workload tremendously.
I would have thought that wouldhave come from your
high-profile intervention withKim Kardashian Did you see the
amounts of boxes she had.
That's just not a normalscenario, is that?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
the guy.
Hello, hi, how are you Courtney?
Hey Courtney, nice to meet you,nice to meet you Thanks for
coming.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Absolutely, but COVID really was the thing that
elevated your workload.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Absolutely.
I think that you know when I so, you know, with the Kardashians
, that's something for sure.
That was an amazing opportunityand you know it definitely
connected me with a lot ofpeople that I can't talked about
, but through that for sure ithelped me interconnect with a
lot of people and then fromthere, more people, more people.
(12:29):
But at the end of the day, youknow, I work in a very small
pool of professionals that arelicensed mental health
counselors, that actually dothis work in the field, because
we don't have, you know, this iswhere the office is a
psychiatric, sometimes a psychhospital.
(12:52):
Our office is sometimes on thestreets of Dallas, it's in a
casino floor.
In Vegas, it's in a beautifulchalet in Aspen, it's on the
mean streets of you name thecity, from Baltimore to Newark,
(13:13):
and we're going into homes,we're going to closets, garages,
even up into trees when peopleare trying to get away from
situations that they believe arehappening on the ground.
So they'll actually go up intothe tree and we have to kind of
help them get down sometimes.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
So your answer right, there is pretty much.
I probably don't even need toask this question, but I will
because because of COVID, butcan an intervention happen
online?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well, that's a good, that's a really good question.
And, um, you know, part of thereason that I've been able to do
this now you know, being in thefield for over two decades,
right Is I've learned that forevery action there's an equal
and opposite reaction, for everyopinion there's a counter
opinion.
And I've learned the more thatI'm able to embrace other
(14:11):
people's perspectives, the moreI'm able to help people with my
orientation.
So, as far as my belief, as faras my orientation goes, my work
is very hands-on, it's, it'sgritty, it's in the trenches and
(14:32):
, like I said, there's somethingabout that that drives me.
I'm driven to that particulartype of work.
Not everybody can stomach thatbecause you're literally, you
know I'm always in very tense,complex, complicated real life
situations.
So, you know, I think that forme, I need the tactile
(14:55):
experience I'll talk about me.
I need to be able to have thateye-eye contact.
And this is no disrespect topeople that believe that certain
intervention work can be doneonline.
I don't think that my work canbe done by artificial
intelligence, although there's alot of artificial intelligence
(15:17):
out there and it's growing andit's exploding in nature.
But I think, with my work, it'sabout quick decisions in the
field, putting out complicatedinterpersonal fires and
ultimately getting people thehelp that they need.
So I don't see the onlineintervention from my perspective
(15:38):
.
But perhaps for mothers,depending upon the level of
intensity of care, maybe it'sdifferent.
That's my politicallyappropriate answer.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
No, and it's perfectly valid and you're right
.
You know, some people seetomato, some people say tomato.
I get what we're saying here,but I would think mental health
diagnosis and stuff like that, Ithink we could do that online.
I don't think something assevere as an intervention could
happen without the personalcontact.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I believe that that's what I believe.
I believe it's a criticalelement.
But another person could arguethe point that you can have that
personal something you knowonline and there's more and more
technology to do that, but, butI, there's no, there is no,
there is no a substitute forthat human interconnectedness
(16:33):
when you're there.
And I think also for the personthat's going to get help,
that's resistant and denial,unable to see for themselves and
really feel the experience.
Having somebody there likemyself, that third party
professional, the empatheticthird party professional, I'm
very confident that makes a hugedifference in the presentation
(16:58):
and the understanding because atthe end of the day, if I wasn't
there and the person battlingsevere postpartum depression or
postpartum mania orschizophrenia or bipolar
disorder, manic, depressed orcompulsive behavior, they could
just walk over to the computerand just close it.
(17:19):
Turn it right off or pull theplug out.
Now what?
Now, what do you do?
And so I can't be closed, mypower cord can't be pulled out.
But that begs the questionbecause you are hands on and
(17:50):
situations that could veryeasily turn into a very bad, bad
situation For me.
Every single one of my cases hasthat potential, and how I work
to carefully mitigate the risk,the danger, is a critical
(18:14):
element of the work that I do.
So that's why and I also workin a very litigious environment
as well litigious environment aswell I also work in an
environment where me going outto help people, you know some
it's delicate because you knowyou're also walking into
people's personal lives andcomplicated stories and issues
(18:40):
that potentially will put you inthe firing, in the line of fire
.
That potentially will put youin the firing, in the line of
fire.
So what I've learned?
To be very careful, even with aquestion like that.
Um, it's so.
The simple answer to yourquestion is that there isn't a
case that I've had.
I don't have any cases wherethere is no potential for things
(19:00):
to get.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Oh okay, Legally you have to say that.
I get that.
But if you talk to a policeofficer, they say that the worst
thing to do is have to go to adomestic situation.
You're going to a domesticsituation every time.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
So it's very, very challenging, I will.
You know, here's some key, youknow keywords weapons, physical
violence, bodily fluids, yeah,cutlery.
(19:50):
There's a lot of things you gotto be conscious of, even when
you're, even when you're workingwith somebody who has, um,
various, uh, black belts indifferent martial arts and they
are battling some type of mentalissue.
You know, um also, I will help.
One thing that I think is acritical part of the work that I
do now that we're just kind ofgetting into that a little bit,
is you just have to turn on theTV.
Almost every week, at least oncea week, there's a case where a
(20:13):
family, a mother, a father, evensometimes the person in crisis,
calls 911 because their lovedone's having some type of
episode.
The law enforcement comes inand we need our law enforcement
and I love our law enforcement.
Law enforcement comes in.
There's no buddy there to kindof manage that individual.
(20:35):
The law enforcement officer hasas much mental health training
as they can possibly have, butthey also have a responsibility
to protect themselves and others, to protect themselves and
others, and so you see thosecases.
All the time where lawenforcement is called, they come
in, and just recently there wasone where you hear the mom
scream crying please don't killmy son, please don't kill my son
(20:58):
.
And unfortunately her son waskilled by law enforcement.
And I will say that in my cases,safety is always a critical
element of the work that I doand, like I said, trying to
mitigate the risk as much aspossible, but in all my cases
(21:19):
there's there's there is quite abit of risk.
When you're dealing withsomebody who is having an
episode out of control requireshelp.
Families oftentimes have triedto handle this themselves and
one of the fears they have iscalling for help because they
see things can go really, reallyhaywire very easily, very
(21:48):
easily.
So the answer to your questionis I'm always walking into
situations where the risk ishigh and the need to be able to
carefully mitigate risk dangeris always and maximize safety is
always a critical element ofthe work that I do.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
I'm talking with Evan Jarschauer.
You can go to evan atbehavioralhelpcom.
A lot of questions that can beunraveled from that answer that
you just gave.
I'll start with the one that'sfirst and foremost on my mind
Are police as equipped as theycould be, or should be, to deal
with mental health crises?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, it's a great another great question, and you
know it's so complicated because, at the end of the day, you
know someone law enforcement.
I think their job is to enforcethe law right, but there's no
question that more and more it'sbeing intertwined with also
(22:42):
understanding mental health lawand dealing with people that
have mental health issues.
I think that I can't speak onbehalf of how law enforcement
agencies are funded or should befunded, but there's no question
that every single lawenforcement agent that is in the
(23:07):
field, if possible, shouldreceive some level of training
in dealing with working withpeople with mental health issues
, especially people with mentalhealth issues who are escalated.
So I can only tell you thatwhat I've learned through the
years is that level of trainingis also, in many cases, limited
(23:30):
to the resources available toprovide that training, and so,
at the end of the day, it's justnot a perfect system, law
enforcement agencies requiringsome level of mental health
training for their personnel.
(23:50):
I'm seeing that definitely on arise, even where there are
certain classifications of lawenforcement agents that do have
that specialized training.
But I think, without question,more is needed.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
My psychiatrist told me a long time ago 20% of the
population is on some sort ofmental health medication, 80%
needs to be.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
That sounds like it could make sense.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah Well, you go to an intervention, you've been
called to an intervention, yousit down, you meet with the
family.
Is there ever a time where,because an intervention is
because somebody loves and caresabout the person who's
destroying themselves correct,yes, that's correct.
You go there to talk to aperson who's addicted, okay, yep
(24:42):
, with this person, you find outthat the mom or the dad or the
brother or sister is the onewho's enabling this behavior,
and so you literally have toturn your attention to this
person who's giving them the goahead, the drugs, the money,
whatever, and say you know what?
This is an intervention for twopeople, not just one.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, well, that's all the time.
Absolutely, really yeah, allthe time, because at the end of
the day, you know the how longsomebody stays sick is also
interconnected with how thepeople that surround that
(25:27):
individual handle the situation.
There's definitely acorrelation between the two, and
so, in many cases, I'm workingon a case where a family member
would rather provide booze ordope to somebody instead of
(25:52):
having them out on the streetand buying it, and you know,
from somebody who could end uphurting them.
I have that all the time, andyou know.
So.
What I've learned over theyears is this that I've actually
stayed away from the termenabling.
Okay, and I'll tell you thereason why, please.
(26:13):
So I don't know if you have anykids or nephews or family, I'm
assuming maybe you do.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I've got nieces and nephews, no kids of my own.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That's fine.
Let's go with some of thosenieces and nephews no, kids of
my own, that's fine.
Let's go with some of thosenieces and nephews.
And one of those was struggling.
Your instinct kicks in to help.
Now, how you, how that, howwhat drives that instinct?
That's the challenge.
So, at the end of the day,rather than enabling, it's more
(26:49):
of instinct.
My loved one is suffering.
I'm going to help, and that'sfor me oftentimes a challenge,
because that help sometimesmeans that they're giving them
dope or giving them money andturning away, you know, letting
them stay in the home and using,because the argument is I would
(27:11):
rather them be in my home anduse than be on the streets and
end up dead.
I'd rather be able to keep aneye on them.
So I don't.
I kind of stay away from theenabling thing and look at it
more in terms of I get it.
You love your son, yourdaughter, your husband, your
(27:32):
wife, your cousin, your niece,your nephew, and so therefore,
you're trying to keep them safe,yeah, and you're trying to
mitigate the, the, the dangers,the dangers, the problem.
The problem with that,unfortunately, is you're also
perpetuating the underlyingdisease or issue, or addiction
(27:52):
or um, by providing them thewherewithal and the resources to
continue to use.
Yeah, so there is that level ofeducating, um and really trying
to.
It's almost like the art of war, but in a very loving,
supportive, therapeuticperspective.
(28:15):
The best way to get rid of yourenemy is to make them your
friend.
Now, I don't know if you wrotethat, but I'm sure in some of
his writings he wrote that, butI'm sure in some of his writings
it's in there somewhere.
And so what I've learned to dois, rather than say, what are
you doing?
How, why are you I never usethe word why why are you giving
(28:39):
him 50 bucks a week?
Why are you letting him stay inthe house?
I get it, I get.
You want them safe.
You don't want to see him theneedles safe.
You don't want to see him theneedles.
You don't want to see him usedirty needles.
You don't want them to have herto have a debt on the street.
You don't want to have.
You don't want to see them sellthemselves so that they can get
a fix, and for that reason thisis what you're doing.
(29:01):
Let's find a way to work aroundthat and because, unfortunately
, you may end up finding themcold anyway, you might find you
may lose them anyway, yeah, soif you're going to go down,
let's go down with a fight andlet's work together and find
some solutions where we increasethe probability that we'll get
(29:24):
them the help that they need,we'll mitigate the resistance
and ultimately we'll help themget on to the road to recovery.
Because the people that becausethey depend on you to help
guide them and support them toget better, they need you to
kind of lead the way and leadthe charge.
So if they see that you'regiving in to the sick part of
(29:48):
their being, then unfortunatelymy hands are kind of tied.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
That answer sounds to me like an intervention is just
not a one time visit.
There should be, or could be,multiple visits.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, well, there's multiple contacts for sure, OK
there, there, there maytypically, I have you know,
there's multiple contacts, forsure there may.
typically, I have you know,there's the pre-intervention,
which is the physical on theground with the family and the
loved ones, co-workers, and thenthe in support of the
intervention.
But at the end of the day,there are multiple Zoom calls,
conference calls.
(30:23):
We are prior and after theintervention to deal with the
(30:50):
issues team to support theobjective of seeing their loved
one not only go to get help butreally create a unified support
system to help increase theprobability that they will be
compliant with carepost-treatment.
So yeah, I do that all the time.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
What would you call the person that is the subject
of the intervention?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
We call them the identified person.
I stay away from the termpatient because I'm really I'm
really not providing therapeuticservices.
Okay, I'm providing a more of aconsultant, um, uh, as opposed
to a uh, a therapist, because wereally want that individual to
(31:27):
receive the therapeutic servicesin the program or with the
providers that are, you know,that are selected for their care
.
So we call them the identifiedperson.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
How many of the identified persons that you've
worked with actually know orrealize they have a problem?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I would say, by the time that I'm called in.
All of them, really, yeah, allof them.
But to further your question, Ithink it's out of all the
people that you go to help, howmany are willing to admit that
they have a problem?
How many are willing?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
to admit that they have a problem?
Yeah, that's the question.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, yeah, and that's that changes the, that
changes the numbers considerably, because they all know there's
a problem they all have, theyall know that there's a problem
and I think that's when thenumbers go down significantly.
You know, we might be in the.
It's a very low number of thepeople that you know, very low
(32:33):
number of people that I get inthere and they go like this Wow,
I'm so glad you came, because Ihave a problem and you know I
was kind of stuck and I'm gladyou're here to help my family
get unstuck and help me and kindof guide this through.
It's a very, it's a very, verylow number.
Every so often I do, and it'swonderful when that happens, but
(32:54):
most of the time it doesn't.
Most of the time, you know, youknow, a lot of times I hear the
statement from the person I'mgoing to get help, you know,
don't you know?
Don't you know that nobody isgoing to go get help until
they're ready to go get help,and and then I channel Tommy Lee
(33:15):
Jones in the fugitive.
Now, now I got to be realcareful with this because I
cannot say this in adisrespectful manner.
This is going to be said in avery respectful manner.
So when a family member or afriend or even an identified
(33:36):
person says you know, you'rejust wasting my family's time,
energy, money and all that stuff, you got paid right like that I
did and we're going to get youhelp.
So, for example, in the moviethe fugitive if you did, you see
it.
Oh yeah, okay.
So tom lee jones is chasing drrichard kimball and they're in
(33:57):
this like aqueduct thing by adam right yep and uh timely
jones's weapon.
He's a federal marshal, hardcorefederal marshal, don't mess
with him.
He's smart, he's like and he'srunning after, and, um, his uh,
sidearm falls out.
And who picks it up?
But Dr Richard Kimball.
(34:18):
Dr Richard Kimball is standingin front of the opening of the,
the, the dam from the aqueduct,and he points the gun, the
weapon, at the federal marshalplayed by Tom Lee Jones and he
says remember what he said.
I didn't kill my wife.
And then, with his hands up inthe air, what did Tom Lee Jones
(34:40):
say to Dr Richard Kimball?
I don't care, he did not meanthat in a disrespectful manner.
He wasn't trying to be cocky orbelligerent.
His message to Dr RichardKimball was listen, I'm here to
see that justice is served.
I'm not here to judge you.
I'm not here to be your judge,jury, whatever.
(35:02):
I just want to make sure, atthe end of the day, that I get
my man safely back to the systemyou know, and they can go ahead
and process and figure this out.
I'm not, I don't mean you anydisrespect, dr Richard Kimball,
but you're going to, but I amgoing to get you and you're
going to come with me and if not, you're going to have to do
what you got to do.
(35:23):
It was a calculated arrest thatthe federal marshal took, at
which point dr richard kimballends up dropping the weapon
because he could shoot him.
And what did that?
What did he end up doing, quoteunquote.
According to the federalmarshal, it did a peter pan off
of this aqueduct, yeah, anyway.
So at the end of the day, um,you know, I have many cases
(35:48):
where the person will saythey're not going to get help
until the family, friends, orthe person says they're not
going to get help until I'mready, oriented towards who I am
(36:09):
as a person, rather than youhave to spend another decade of
establishing a more robustbottom, let's get you some help
right now.
I hear you I'm not judging youAt the end of the day, um, you
(36:30):
are suffering, you know that,and as far as you believing that
you need more time to suffer,um, I can't, I can't let, I
can't, just can't let you dothat.
Yeah, and I'm gonna help getyou some help to do that.
Yeah, and I'm going to help getyou some help.
So, for that reason, I'm goingto keep going until we get you
(36:50):
some help.
That's the, that's kind of theorientation that I have, okay.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
And, of the identified persons that you work
with, how many of them aresurprised to see you and how
many of them are not surprisedto see you?
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Well, it depends on the case.
It really depends on it.
I don't have a number for youon that, but I can definitely
say that even when somebodyappears surprised, are you that
surprised that your mother oryour father or your husband or
your wife couldn't watch youhurt yourself any further?
(37:25):
How many cries for help?
I mean, at the end of the dayyou were crying for help left
and right.
I'm, I'm just the um, I'm themanifestation of your cries.
So maybe you're surprised tosee my face.
I know it's not that pretty,but at the end of the day, I
(37:51):
don't think you're so surprisedthat your family and the people
that love you the most theydon't love me Okay, the people
that are around you that theywanted to see that you got some
help and they didn't want towait another day, not another
night, not another horriblephone call from some state
trooper.
They want to see that you gethelp today because they love you
(38:14):
and they feel that you deserveit, and they deserve it too.
They deserve the opportunity tohave this amazing, healthy
relationship with you, so thatyour kids can have a parent, so
that your brother can have hisbrother, your mother can have
the mom can have a parent, sothat your brother can have his
brother, your mother can havethe mom can have a relationship
with her children, her husband.
So I'm here because this is, atthe end of the day, what you've
(38:40):
been crying out for.
That's when the person goesShut up or they go, or they go.
Okay, I get it.
I very rarely have a case when Ivery rarely have a case where
someone is like everything wasjust great, everything was
wonderful, and I have noconceptualization at all of your
(39:02):
purpose for being here.
I don't ever have those cases.
Wow, there's always.
Even in the mental health casesyou you still have, there's
still an understanding thatthings aren't so good and you're
here because there's a problem.
I don't have those cases whereyou know what this is.
Wow, I'm shocked.
I don't have those.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Well, that's funny because I'm equating this
particular part of theconversation to what John
Mulaney said about his ownintervention.
So you come to the intervention, you go through the whole thing
you don't know, it's anintervention when you come to it
.
Right, I thought it was dinnerwith two friends from college.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Right, it was not, it was not.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And you were like two hours late for that dinner.
I was two hours late for thatdinner, but an intervention for
me and I'm thinking I don't needthis.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
At first that's what his answer was.
Sure, I get it, I get it.
But upon further reflection I'mconfident.
He was like OK, yeah, I don'thave any.
I don't have any cases wherethe person goes like wow, this
is perfect timing, doesn'thappen, does not happen how much
does humor play?
Speaker 1 (40:08):
uh, how much can humor play into our recovery,
our development, mentally I mean, because melanie's just made a
whole act out of it now andthat's the way I deal with my
childhood trauma is throughcomedy.
How much can humor play a rolein our, in our healing?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
uh, another delicate question because, um, what
you're seeing is like over twodecades of my evolution as a
practitioner, right Of aninterventionist.
And so, at the end of the day,um, being able to use my own
warped of humor, I believe, isan essential component of me
(40:51):
being able to keep my sanity andkeep it together under some of
the most stressful, complex,complicated situations.
But I've also learned that noteverybody has a warped sense of
humor and not everybody, noteverybody, appreciates my sense
of humor.
But I've learned how to kind ofgauge it and to try to find the
(41:13):
lighter moments that that seemmore universal in nature, and I
think that if it was all justpressure, pressure, pressure,
pressure, I think that thatwould just eventually make
everything just that much moretense and more tense, pressure
(41:35):
filled.
So I've used, I've learned tobe able to use levity, not in a
demeaning or demoralizing, youknow, manner, but more so the
humanness of the experience andbeing able to take a very
complicated, uncomfortable,tense situation and, you know,
(42:01):
be able to kind of shed somelight on that moment.
The person says, for example,you know, um, you know before, I
need to think about this, Ineed to go grab something you
know to eat before, so I canthink about this and I go.
You know I'm I'm starving too,man, let's go grab a bite and
(42:22):
the family's like what you know.
That's just kind of a simpleexample.
But being able to use, use thatlighter side, join the person
in their experience and be human, I think that's a critical
element of making this whole, atleast my world, work.
If not, it would all just beintensity, intensity, intensity,
(42:45):
no release and just a realcombative, complex air.
And I try to use my levity, myhumor, to kind of let a little
bit of that tension out,delicately and thoughtfully in
the process.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah, it's got to be a delicate situation because
humor and entertainment is sosubjective it's probably the
most subjective thing on theplanet and if you think
something's funny, nine out of10 might not think it's funny,
and so you know.
Yeah, it's a balance that yougot to tightrope.
Is there one addiction that'sworse than another?
Speaker 2 (43:23):
You know, I think for me there is no there there that
are.
There is not one.
That I find is easier.
But but I will say thissometimes the addictions to
substances that are legal orprescribed by a physician, those
can be some of the morechallenging because oftentimes
(43:46):
the identified person would sayit's legal or it's prescribed by
my physician.
So how is this bad?
I'm using it as prescribed, butyou're also maybe drinking
along with the medication, oryou're using two different
medications together that arecounter affecting each other.
But those are some of the mostdifficult ones.
(44:10):
I'll give you an exampleNicotine super super.
You know I don't get called infor interventions for nicotine,
but it's definitely from.
You know, it's super hardaddiction to break.
Alcohol, it's everywhere.
So for the person that's tryingto so you have somebody who has
(44:31):
a cocaine addiction or agambling addiction no, yeah,
they would have the hardest timestaying, I'm sorry, hardest
time staying away from alcohol.
You can stay away from casinos,right?
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
You can stay away from Coke dealers, but it's
really, really hard to stay awayfrom alcohol when it's in
supermarkets.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
How has the legalization of marijuana
affected the caseload.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Right.
So where my world really beganto explode, it wasn't COVID.
It was when weed began, thedecriminalization, the
destigmatization not being astigma anymore.
(45:16):
Yeah, right, without question,weed is the number one drug,
intersected, interconnected,intertwined, in my work, for
sure, and that is, you know, atthe end of the day, there's no,
(45:39):
there's no argument.
I don't think it's, I don'tthink you can make an argument
that weed doesn't have medicinalqualities.
There are medicinal qualitieswith weed, absolutely, and for
some people it is a wonder drug,wonder medication, wonder
ointment.
The problem is that for a lotof people that have other
(46:01):
underlying mental health issues,weed is like a switch and it
turns on a dragon, like a fire,a fire breathing dragon that you
had deeply embedded within yourbrain and it lets it loose.
And so, and that's, if you'rejust taking whatever is
prescribed to you, whateveredible, whatever, uh, you're
(46:24):
smoking, at the end of the day,um, that's probably, like I said
, the number one challengingsubstance of uh substance use
issue that's affecting people'smental health.
Um, and and also I'm seeing alot of that, where they're not
abusing it, it's just the dosethat you take.
(46:44):
It may just be enough tosignificantly impact your
thinking and impair your, uh,your moods, um, and I'm seeing
that left and right.
The challenging thing with weedis that there's such a um social
component with with smokingweed or consuming edibles.
(47:09):
It is kind of a there's asocietal shift.
There's a societal shift whereit's um, it's accepted, it's
cool, it's in, and to not beable to smoke weed it's kind of
like back in the day when peoplewould have business meetings
and having a few drinks was partof the business meeting.
(47:32):
Right Today, and I guesscurrent social or corporate
culture with regard to drinking,they've got policies on
drinking and policies ondrinking with in a business
meeting, but I think that weedhas become such an accepted part
of you know, uh, society withculture and so, for that reason,
(47:59):
if you're not, if you're theone that can't smoke weed, it's
almost like in many cases atleast the feedback I'm getting
as well you can't fit in.
Yeah, and that's can, that's,that can be socially
debilitating and make youawkward.
Um, it's kind of like going,it's like, it's almost like.
The analogy would be the kidwith diabetes going to the
(48:23):
birthday party and can't havethe cake right um, it's not that
the cake is going to well.
The cake could kill you, Right?
But the weed may not kill you,but your behaviors associated
with your consumption of thatmight put you and everyone
around you in jeopardy.
So that's kind of what'shappening with the weed scene,
at least from what I'm seeing.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Is there such a thing as a healthy addiction?
Speaker 2 (48:45):
In my.
I think that anything and thisis you know.
I'll make a simple statementfirst.
I think anything to an excessis no good.
It's not good, not safe, nothealthy.
But I think that so many of theamazing things that we've all,
all the technologicalaccomplishments, all the amazing
(49:08):
things that have been done bypeople in the arts and
technology, you know, bysomebody that had a passion and
maybe was addicted to whatevertheir passion was and they
couldn't stop doing it and thatdrove them that like that.
So I think that I think, ifit's something that takes you
away from being able to live aproductive, happy, healthy life,
(49:33):
then I think yeah, then I thinkit would be a bad thing.
But I think if you're addictedto like I'm addicted to this
work, I'll admit it, I love it.
I love this, the feeling ofgetting that call, you know,
going out to help the familycrisis, being able to establish
order, get people help, you knowit's.
(49:55):
It really is a very coolfeeling, on top of the fact that
what I do to provide my family.
So I'm a lucky, very lucky guythere.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
The other thing, too, that I heard you say before is
that your line of work actuallyhelps you with your own mental
stability.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Oh yeah, absolutely Without, without question.
Um, like I said before, I'm notso good with downtime Uh, it's,
you know.
And so, without question this,it's not that I feel better when
I see people not doing well,that's not the case at all.
It's that, for me, that senseof purpose really helps my
(50:39):
mental health, helps me withfeelings of depression or
anxiety.
It really helps me stay levelthat I know that I'm actually a
productive, engaging participantin making a difference.
So there's a very, there's ahuge sense of connectedness with
(51:01):
that work that I do and helpingme maintain my emotional
equilibrium.
It's crazy, in a way, becauseI'm walking into situations that
are like out of controlsometimes and people will look
at me and say what's wrong withyou?
Why is this guy?
Well, he's that way becauseit's really not his family.
(51:24):
That's not necessarily the case.
It's just more so that I am inthat moment, really feeling how
it's kind of like in many ways.
Do you ever see those um I'lluse another movie reference um,
and this is not about me killingpeople, okay, so don't think
that.
Why would you even say that?
But uh, but no, but, like inthe equalizer movies, withzel,
(51:49):
who I love as he, or even theBourne identity.
Like Jason Bourne, Right.
When he walks into a room he'scalculating.
You know he's looking lookingat the doors, looking at this,
checking this, out the angles,because he has a plan.
His plan is dangerous and youknow like they're gonna fight
(52:10):
and stuff.
You know jiu-jitsu but, um, youknow, I, in many ways, as I'm
in the situation, I'm alsolooking at the various.
Sometimes I am looking at theexits but, um, you know, I'm
looking at the differentscenarios and different people
and how I can best move thingsaround to achieve the goal,
(52:30):
ultimate goal, of helping thisperson and doing in the most
loving, supportive andcomprehensive way.
I don't know what your questionwas, but I felt good.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
No, I was talking about how your own mental
stability is helped by yeah,yeah, absolutely, and that keeps
.
That helps me keep my headtogether.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
Yeah, absolutely, and that keeps.
That helps me keep my headtogether.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, that's the same thing with me hosting this
podcast that now has asignificant concentration on
mental health and personaldevelopment.
I mean, I've, I've been seeingpsychiatrists since 1995, evan,
and so, yeah, you would thinkthat I would be an expert, but I
(53:12):
, brother, I got to tell you.
Man, going back to the veryfirst thing that we talked about
in this conversation, uh, youmade a light go off for me, and
you made a light go off for meOne of the cool things that I
read about you and we've beentalking about interventions,
because that's what EvanJarschauer does, uh, along with,
uh, mental health, uh therapy,but it doesn't need to be an
addiction that can require anintervention.
You can do it for mentalillness, you can do it for
(53:33):
chronic depression, you canactually do it to help offset
school violence and in massshootings.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
That's a great question and I think that I've
had, I've had a lot of caseswhere, had somebody stayed on
the trajectory, they were on,they might have been a good
candidate for somebody thatmight have done something like
that, wow.
So yeah, absolutely I've neverhad an intervention per se where
it was somebody who was, youknow, shooting up schools, yeah,
(54:07):
but but for sure I've had manycases where there were people
that had they continued on inthe trajectory, they were on
with their compulsive behaviors,with their delusions.
Something bad could havehappened, like that.
We'll never know, hopefullywe'll never.
We'll never know, hopefullywe'll never.
(54:27):
But but for sure you know, likeI said, I specialize in the
dual diagnosis intervention orthe even just a straight mental
health intervention.
But the dual diagnosisintervention where somebody is
dealing with some underlyingmental health issue depression,
anxiety, severe mood swings,ptsd and they are oftentimes
(54:55):
self-medicating with some typeof mood-altering substance,
whether it's in to help manage,deal with, coordinate,
facilitate the person from wherethey are out of control in
(55:17):
crisis, establish order, helpthem get help and work with the
family to support that processmoving forward.
That's my job.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
How many of your prior cases actually keep in
touch with you and tell youabout their progress?
Speaker 2 (55:33):
You know it varies.
I can't, I couldn't give you aspecific number on that, but a
lot do.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
A lot do and it comes in different waves, in
different stages.
So you know, I might not hearfrom somebody for quite some
time and then I'll get a textmessage, um, for example.
Hey, evan, just want to let youknow, um, I just finished
college and but wait, I stillthink you're a two headed snake.
(56:03):
But I want to thank you.
Oh my gosh.
Really oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Iget those every so often, you
know.
Or or the family will say youknow what she's doing, great,
she, she's back with the kidsand you know I get those.
So those are you know, but they, they, they get peppered in
(56:25):
with my.
Sometimes, in some of my mostdifficult, challenging days,
I'll get a, a text message.
You, in some of my mostdifficult, challenging days,
I'll get a text message, youknow, and I'm like, okay, I can
make it, you know, it helps.
Those really do help.
By the way, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
Oh, they definitely help.
Oh, for sure that's got to bethe most satisfying part of your
work, Super, yeah.
Well, you know what man, I havehad a blast talking to you.
Well, you know what man, I havehad a blast talking to you.
I knew this was going to be anawesome conversation and I can't
thank you enough for gettingback with me and saying that
you'd be available, because Ihonestly didn't think you would
be given your credentials with.
You know all the ABC, nbc, cbsNews, huffington Post,
(56:59):
kardashians, which we didn'teven really talk about.
Is shopping a real addiction?
Speaker 2 (57:03):
Absolutely, absolutely, when at that time
when you are, you know you arewell exceeding your income.
However, in that particularcase, the end of the day, the
income exploded.
Yeah, so you know, butabsolutely it is for families
(57:27):
where especially well, I can goon and on, but there's the
answer, simple answer is yes, ifit affects people's ability to
provide for their families, ifit becomes something that's
consuming a bulk of their time,for sure it can be a real deal
addiction.
Speaker 1 (57:43):
Hey, how can people get in touch with you, evan, at
behavioral helpcom?
Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah, that's my email .
Evan at behavioral help.
It's help, not health.
Evan at behavioral helpcom.
Um, and then you can find methere.
We've got a bunch of socialmedia stuff and um, but that's
probably the easiest way to findme.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
Also, uh, go to life hackcom and you can read 13,.
Uh, and you can read 13articles that Evan has written,
each one more fascinating andmore helpful than the next.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (58:11):
You're welcome, brother.
Speaker 2 (58:12):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
If you're seeing a mental health provider and you
go into the office and the visitgoes something like this your
blood pressure looks good, youmust be feeling better, right?
Yeah, things are good right now.
Good, see you in another 16weeks.
Then it's time to find someonelike Evan.
I mentioned earlier in theconversation that Evan reminded
(58:34):
me of my psychiatrist, now Derek, and that there's actual
sincerity and genuine concernfrom them.
Even when I've been on a run ofstability and lower depression,
derek still asks me questionsabout my life.
Run of stability and lowerdepression Derek still asks me
questions about my life.
He wants to know what'shappening in the good times as
well as in the bad times.
In fact, I'm not going to lie,I see him taking more notes
(58:58):
during the uneventful visitsthan he does when there are
actually issues to discuss.
That's the kind of personyou're looking for when you're
searching for a therapist.
That's the kind of personyou're looking for when you're
searching for a therapist.
My thanks to Evan for joiningus Again.
You can reach out to Evan atEvan E-V-A-N.
At BehavioralHelpcomBehavioralHelpcom H-E-L-P.
(59:20):
My thanks again to you forlistening.
My weekly request is this thatyou like, follow, subscribe,
rate and share the fuzzy mic tohelp grow the numbers of people
that we can help.
We're all in this fighttogether.
Nobody fights alone.
If laughter is your favoritekind of medicine, well then
check out the Tuttle Klinepodcast, where my longtime radio
(59:43):
partner, tim Tuttle, and I well, we've teamed up to give you
the style of show we did behindthe scenes during our 25 years
together on commercial radio.
Parameters, none Filters, noneLaughs.
Well, plenty.
New episodes post everyWednesday.
The Fuzzy Mic is hosted andproduced by Kevin Klein,
(01:00:04):
production elements by ZachSheish at the Radio Farm.
Social media director is TrishKlein.
I'd love to hear from youSuggestions, comments or even
ideas for the show.
Email thefuzzymic at gmailcom.
See you next Tuesday and thankyou again for being here.
I don't know why I look at themicrophone.
It's not like you're there.
(01:00:24):
You're there, I'm an idiot.
That's it for the Fuzzy Mic.
Thank you.
The Fuzzy Mike with Kevin Kline.
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