September 18, 2025 • 51 mins
The Gaming Persona crew explores the stark contrast between $20 indie games like Hollow Knight Silksong breaking Steam records while many $70 AAA titles struggle to deliver comparable experiences. Marcus shares his unexpected journey from organizing pickup hockey games to being offered a position managing ice rinks, highlighting how the leadership skills from raid leading transfer to real-world community building.
• Hollow Knight Silksong's massive success at just $20 raises questions about game pricing and value
• Small studios with focused vision often create more engaging experiences than corporate-driven development
• Games designed as "lifestyle choices" (like MMOs) aim primarily for engagement rather than finite experiences
• One of the hosts spent over 365 days of real-time (20% of his existence) playing Star Wars: The Old Republic
• Memorable indie games often succeed through vision and execution rather than massive budgets
• Many of today's AAA franchises began as smaller projects that earned their success through quality
• Trophy completion statistics reveal that many players never finish games they purchase
Join us on the Gaming Persona Solo Quest where we'll explore the academic side of gaming psychology and healthy gaming habits. Follow us for more discussions on how our gaming personas shape who we become both in-game and in real life.
If you would like to support the show and help us unlock additional possibilities for future episodes and projects, this can now be done through Patreon!
You can watch us play games LIVE and join our communities to get more connection from every episode:
- DrGameology on Twitch - Continue the Journey LIVE in 2025!!
- MarcusB814 on YouTube - BOOMBA
Subscribe on YouTube for more content on the Psychology of Gaming or Follow on Twitch to catch the Live Streams!
For more info, check out DrGameology.com!
More Links Here!
Thanks for Listening, and Continue The Journey!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Gaming Persona Podcast.
This is the show that exploreswho we become when we play games
, whether you're saving kingdoms, leading epic raids or just
vibing in cozy indie worlds.
Join me, dr Gamology and mygood friend Marcus as we search
for all the ways gaming andpersonal growth collide.
Grab your controllers and let'scontinue the journey Now.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Holy cow, holy cow.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
That's where Swiss cheese comes from.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
It's a bit sensationalist to start our
episode, but I'll bite what'sgoing on, marcus, all right
going on, marcus, all right.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So if you followed the adhd journey of marcus b814
for the last years, I went fromfat marcus to less fat marcus,
started playing hockey, whichhas, in turn, made me more
social than I already am, andthen one of my skates per week
ended and there was a group ofpeople like five of us that
(01:14):
didn't have anywhere to playhockey.
So I did what Marcus does andtalk to people who own ranks
where my son plays, and it'sreally hard to get them to give
you a sheet of ice, becausethere's a lot of people that
want it.
Well, they decided to give me asheet of ice this past summer.
So since may, I have beenrunning a pickup hockey league
(01:40):
every week and filling it blah,blah, blah.
There's a big pickup skate.
Pickup skates are like randompeople you can sign in.
It's like no commitment hockey.
Like, hey, I got a Wednesdaynight free, I'm going to go play
hockey.
You sign into this app, youclick that, you're in.
You pay the money, you go playhockey.
Well, there's an actualbusiness in my area that does
(02:03):
this and they host anywhere from40 to 70 skates a week all
across my state and out near meand the Western part of my state
.
There's three a week andthey've really been struggling.
Well, I was reached out to bythe said company because they're
(02:25):
upset that I've been stealingtheir business without taking
their business and they'veoffered me a job.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
So you become a professional poacher.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So in my world right now, I in the next few days will
be driving to Boston to meetwith this company and discuss
future employment, to help runthe western part of my skate and
help grow it to be what it isout east.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So is this like a career change or is it like a
side hustle?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I'm looking at it as a side hustle, but my friends
and my wife think it's going tobe a full-time job opportunity.
Whoa, that's so cool.
So I'm going to go from being acarpenter to a hockey bro.
What can go?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
wrong Everything, doritos.
I feel like this really tiesinto our sort of dialogue or our
narrative that Marcus has to bethe group leader, right?
Because he's like, screw this,I don't get to have the ice
skating rink.
He's like, screw this, I don'tget to have the ice skating rink
(03:48):
.
So I'll just go promote myselfand convince someone to give me
their skating rink, and thenI'll make a team and then I'll
make sure people show up to dothe raid.
I mean the hockey game and I'llmake rinks.
It's working class rinks it's.
It's death star skaters it's.
You know, it's everything I'veever known Marcus to be, but he
just hockey-fied it.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So it's really something that I had to talk
about here.
I know it doesn't have to dowith video games everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It does.
I just made it about videogames, marcus.
Your identity and who I'vealways thought you are, since I
raided with you, is a metaphorfor what you just did with your
hockey league stuff, and that isnot something to be upset about
.
That's freaking amazing.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I just you know what it is it's.
I don't want to see my friendsnot have somewhere to go, and I
guess it has to do with likerating.
Like my friends, I wanted themall to play together, so I made
a team and I made everybody diea lot yes, you did.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I mean what?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
no no yeah, I did, but you know something that it
doesn't trigger this, but itmade me think about this week is
, and I don't know if this couldbe our topic or not, but it's
been on my mind.
So do you guys know what hollownight is?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I just started playing it today, Marcus the
first one.
No, I would, what Heck no.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Playing silk song.
Okay, I've got.
I've got the first one.
I haven't downloaded it yet,all right.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
So silk song came out , it broke Steam right 500
million downloads or 500, likemillions of downloads within
minutes.
It's like crash Steam.
But you have this game, whichis a 2D side scroller,
metrovania, souls-like.
It's actually a lot like aSouls game, but my point is it's
(05:47):
$20.
Yeah, and then you have theseAAA games that are $40, I mean
$50, $60, $70 that aren't asgood as this $20 game, and it
makes you ask yourself whatmakes a game so expensive in
comparison.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I want to also add to this conversation that Claire
Obscure Expedition 33 was $49.99.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Right, and it was made by a team of, with all
their subcontractors, a team of200.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, and people in the base studio was like
30-something.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, it was 33.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, yeah, I know Allegedly.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah, but my point is do you guys I mean some of my
favorite games that I've playedweren't triple A games?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Of course you know I want to throw out the idea of
movies.
You know I don't have aspecific movie to call out here.
Actually I do.
Are you both familiar with themovie Clerks?
Yes, oh yeah, yeah, okay.
Clerks, yes, oh, yeah, yeah,okay.
So the the view is universe.
(07:09):
You know Kevin Smith has allthese movies that I grew up
loving and you know just JaneSilent Bob love the whole thing.
But Clerks was made on a budgetbecause Kevin Smith was not
really anybody back then.
Right, and it's an amazing movie.
It's it's fun to watch eventoday, and it's more fun to
watch than 30% of the Marvelmovies that all cost hundreds of
(07:35):
millions of dollars to throwtogether.
Because of the effects andbecause of how many people are
in there doing the writing andthe editing, and then the camera
people and the salaries for theactors.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I was just going to say that.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah.
So you put Robert Downey Jr onscreen for one second and you
just add $50 million to yourbudget.
So nobody was like that.
On Clerks Clerks 2, by the way,has Ahsoka Tano in it.
So I just want to throw thatout there for a nice Star Wars
(08:11):
reference.
I love Rosario Dawson.
So my point is that's kind ofwhat happens with video games.
You get a big studio that hashigh, skyrocketed expectations
for their game, like Naughty Dogmaking.
Eventually they're going tomake the Last of Us Part 3, I'm
(08:33):
sure.
But you look at how much moneyhave they put into the Last of
Us Part 2 and all the remastersof the Last of Us Part 1 and
making sure that game is currenton the most current hardware so
that people who fall in lovewith the TV show on HBO Max have
something that's modern astheir first introduction to
playing it as a game.
(08:54):
And you spend millions andmillions on those game
experiences so that it's asperfect as you can make it.
And then there's other gamesthat are just like.
We can choose an art style thatdoesn't require a thousand
people team to refine thegraphics.
You know that's Hollow Knight,you know it's.
(09:16):
I'm sure you can do the kindsof things in Hollow Knight with
straight out of college, or evenduring college, depending on
what you're learning as an artdesigner and graphics designer.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, yes, I'm with you and it's for me.
It's just, you see, all theseAAA games that come out that
cost all this money, and yet a$20 game is better than most of
those games that they spenthundreds of millions on well,
this perspective, though, better, more popular, I mean.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah, so a lot of people have downloaded it, a lot
of people are playing it, a lotof people playing it on twitch
and various those streamingplatforms, but you know what's
how long is the content, though.
Is it a 15 hour game?
Is it a 20 hour game?
Is it as hard?
I mean, I haven't played it yet.
So, doc, is it really as hardas elden ring?
(10:15):
I made it look hard, but youwhat you were learning though I
mean it's like you're still.
You know, you go to lingrave forthe first time and you die a
lot till you learn parrying anddodging and and.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Don't fight the tree sentinel that's up to you, or do
fight the tree sentinel.
Okay, we're gonna have to put apin in that this is a difficult
game thing, because I want toinclude that in this episode,
but it's not the right time.
So, everyone, I am promisingyou a mental health moment, this
episode where I will just openup everything about me as a
(10:53):
gamer and let you watch all ofmy pain, just explain who I am
when I play a new video game.
The thing that I was tickled bythe most during my stream today
, doritos was I got the firsttrophy in the game at least
right the path that I took andthe playstation network said one
(11:18):
percent of people that own thisgame have this trophy the first
one.
So we're days into the gamebeing out a week.
Right, we talked about this asthe opener for last week, but
none of us had a chance to playit.
So now, a week later, I haveplayed it.
One percent of people who ownthe game have the first trophy
(11:41):
in the game, right, right?
So that means people are buyingit because of fandom and
curiosity, and the hype and thelore of this game is that it
took forever to came out, tocome out, and so it's 20.
So I can drop the 20 on itwhether I play it or not, right?
I think that that's something alot of game players will think.
(12:03):
They'll'll add it to theirbacklog.
It's not expensive and it's amoment.
Hollow Knight Silksong is havinga moment, but people aren't
necessarily playing it yet.
It honestly is, because I didmy first two TikTok lives this
(12:24):
week since the last episode, andthese are different activities
than what I do on Twitch,because I haven't actually
played any video games on TikTok.
I'm actually doing this onTikTok and talking about the
psychology of being a gamer andtalking about.
What is the gamer's journey andwhat can we learn about
ourselves, the way we play gamesJust talking with the
(12:47):
PlayStation in the background,so you hear the noise on the
menu of whatever game I'mthinking about playing and
that's the background track forthe conversation.
But I have no intent of playingvideo games on TikTok until I
get my stream key.
I'm there to create an offshootfor the gaming persona, which
Marcus I'm going to announcethis now because Doritos knows,
(13:09):
because he was on the streamthis morning Doing just the
talking on TikTok has made medecide that I'm going to start
recording what I'm going to callthe gaming persona solo quest.
It's going to go into the samefeed as the gaming persona and
it's not going to be every timeI do TikTok, but once in a while
(13:30):
, like once a week, once everytwo weeks, I'm going to pick one
and it's going to be me doing asolo walkthrough of the
academic side of the gamingpersona, topics of like.
Here's the research.
Here's my observation as aexpert in psychology and as a
clinician who has worked withhundreds or thousands of gamers.
And this is how you play in ahealthy way and this is how you
(13:53):
find the love of video games tobuild you up, because society is
so quick to say, oh, you playvideo games, you're ruining your
life, right?
And it's like no, marcus is araid leader and he just took
over hockey in Boston.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
That's right.
No, it's not.
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
No, just Western Mass .
Let me blow you up, Marcus.
Wait, wait, that can be clippedin very bad ways.
Let me celebrate your victories, Marcus.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Well, I'm going to go back to the 1% trophy for that.
Whatever trophy you got, whatyou got.
I googled the Godric theGrafted trophy Just trophies.
This is just PlayStation as ofJuly 11th 2025, so the game's
been out three years, threeyears yeah.
(14:42):
Only 56.3% of PlayStationplayers have the Godric the
Grafted trophy.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
That's the first boss in the game that has a trophy
to it Right 53% of people thathave bought 56.3% of people that
have bought the game on thePlayStation Store.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Just over half the people have gotten that far.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
The PlayStation Store just over half the people have
gotten that far 43% of peoplethat have bought the game have
not killed Godric the Grafted.
They've quit Quitters.
You should be ashamed ofyourself.
You gotta live your journey.
Come on, people.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Alright, well, no, so I'm gonna go with this.
I started that new character inElden Ring on the PlayStation
and it's actually really hard tostart a character fresh.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
It's so hard.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Because I already know where to go and what to do.
So I'm kind of like pushingmyself forward, where before,
like that first encampment youfind by, where, like I don't
know if you meet ronnie ormillennia where they give you
like the steed yeah, I know whatyou're talking about.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
It's the place where you grind it 50 times.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yes, I grinded that over and over and over and over
just to level up.
But now I'm there, I'm like Idon't, you don't get that many
runes here, why am I gonna farmthis?
But then I went into the firstdungeon with only going up one
or two levels and that firstboss in that like cave, the guy
with the giant nose yeah hewhooped my ass like I won right
(16:25):
because you rolling Marcus.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
No, no, I didn't die.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I beat him, but it literally took a lot of hits to
beat this guy.
Oh yeah, when before?
Speaker 3 (16:36):
And then he put his, then he equipped a sword.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Ah, I try to punch the stone, boss.
It's like that episode ofDoctor who where he keeps living
his life and punching thediamond wall and then dying
instantly.
And he takes like millions oflife regenerations to break
through a diamond wall bypunching it with his fist, but
(17:00):
that's literally the onlysolution to the problem.
It's one of my favoriteepisodes of Doctor, whoever.
It's from the Peter Capaldi eraof him being the 12th Doctor.
I know we don't usually talkDoctor who on here, but that's
really important to me because Idid my PhD program because I
(17:21):
just wanted to be able to callmyself a doctor.
Honestly, I thought this iswithin my capability and I love
Doctor who enough that I want todo this.
I want to go do it.
Alright, back to you, marcus.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Back to me.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Punch that stone boss with your fists.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
No, it's just because I pulled up the top played
Steam deck games and I look at,most of these games aren't AAA
games, but they're some of themost played on the Steam Deck
Because they run well on theSteam Deck.
(18:01):
Well, okay, yes, I guess mypoint is that a game doesn't
have to be a AAA game to begreat.
But when will these AAA studiosrealize that and realize that
these, like Claire Obscure 33people built that game plus some
(18:24):
contractors 33 people builtthat game plus some contractors
where you have studios likeBungie who have thousands of
employees trying to make Destiny2, and they still fail?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Destiny 2 is an online game of service that is
trying to pack in so manyactivities into the game that it
becomes a player's lifestyle,and that is a different thing to
build than a game that has apurpose, a goal, a story and a
finite calculation of hours thatyou want a person to experience
(19:00):
it to go through one time.
Whenever you create gear grinds, you are expecting people to
play that content forever untilthey pass out and die or hydrate
, and it's not very healthy forpsychology if all the games you
(19:20):
play have these kinds of grinds.
I was just talking with a groupof mental health counselors
about this.
They asked me a question aboutwhat's the difference between a
game where most people play itin a healthy way and games where
most people play it in anunhealthy way.
I was talking about how.
What are the game developerstrying to do in terms of
(19:40):
generating engagement?
So let's take a Resident Evilgame, marcus.
Okay, you shoot things, they'refirst person.
So let's compare my ResidentEvils with your Destiny 2.
What's the difference?
Even if I'm trying to PlatinumTrophy, resident Evil Village,
(20:00):
the eighth game in the sequenceof core games, I'm going to play
that game.
I don't know.
Off the top of my head, theyhave websites to explain this,
but I would't know.
Off the top of my head, theyhave websites to explain this,
but I would guess that 60 hoursright and the platinum trophy.
For people who don't know,that's a list of achievements
the game builds into the thegame developers have built into
the game and by me accomplishingevery single one of them, I've
(20:24):
cleared all activities in thegame successfully.
That's what it means.
So that's like overachiever,perfectionist, completionist
gamer.
We want the platinum trophy.
That's a badge of honor that Iam one of the best at this game,
because it matters to me.
Destiny 2 can it be platinumtrophied on the ps5?
(20:45):
Is that a thing that they builtin?
I mean so in order to like maxout everything and clear all
bosses and instances on thehighest difficulty.
How much time would that take?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I don't think there's trophies, or at least on Steam.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Well, there you go.
Well, OK, so you're playingbecause of your own goals
instead of the goals the gamestudio gave you.
That's fine, and I actuallylike that more from a motivation
perspective.
But how long would it take todo that same level of mastery in
destiny 2 that we justdescribed in resident evil
village?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
a long time.
Thank you a long time becauseprobably hundreds of 500 hours.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
What did you say?
Speaker 3 (21:34):
doritos, hundreds of hours, 500, I don't know again,
a lot of it's going to be, ifit's, if it's instances and
bosses, because a lot of it's,you know, raid content.
So you're gonna have to have asolid, constant group, like you
would in most mmos when you doraids, especially if you're
(21:54):
doing progression raiding.
That would be able to gothrough those, learn the fights
and then become proficient atthem yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So I want to bring us back to a game all of us have
loved for a very long time inour life Star Wars, the Old
Republic.
Oh boy, do we all remember thevery first Dark vs Light event?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I, of course, do.
I was collecting my data frommy dissertation during this
event.
It was a very important time inmy life.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Could you tell everybody what the Dark vs Light
event was?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
time in my life Could you tell everybody what the
dark versus light event was?
Yeah, so in the game of StarWars, the Old Republic, there
are a lot of moral choices, andmoral choices in Star Wars come
down to are you championing thelight side of the force and
doing good in the universe, orare you powering up the dark
side and spreading death anddevastation at your own whims
(22:48):
and fancies, using the dark sideto kill?
the dark side of the force, andall the thousands and thousands
of daily accounts that weresigning in were being tracked by
the studio the entire summer tosee does this population of
gamers champion the light sideor the dark side of the force?
(23:11):
And there was an incentive thatwe would get a special
companion that represented acomplete alignment with either
the light side or the dark side,based on which side of the
force we chose.
It's a voting system with ourmorality chose.
(23:31):
It's a voting system with ourmorality, and one of the coolest
things that I ever did is Iwent on UtiniCast after I
collected my data of players andI had a question about the
morality choices.
It was so staggering in thelight side direction that,
months before the end of thiscompetition, I told Chill and
Tio, the hosts of that show, itwill be the light side and it
(23:52):
will not even be close, and Iwas right.
So yay for science.
That was just cool, because Ireally put my name out there and
it would have been devastatingif the dark side won.
So that's fun.
The reason I bring that up,though, is during that event is
(24:14):
the first time that I everlearned that you could put in
the chat, slash played okay, Idid not know this was a thing,
and of course, it 2016.
So I've been playing the gamesince 2011,.
Right, is that correct?
Yeah, so five years of playing,and in 2016, I typed slash
(24:38):
played.
And what that does is the gametells you how long exactly
you've been playing on theaccount that you have signed in
playing on the account that youhave signed in and it told me a
number that was more than 365days.
So more than 365 times 24 hoursin a day is how long I had
(25:00):
played Star Wars the OldRepublic in the first five years
of it being out.
I spent 20% of my existence onplanet Earth playing Star Wars
the Old Republic and, by the way, just to remind you of what's
really important to me, I gotall A's in my doc program during
that too.
So you know, just because I wasplaying games a lot doesn't
(25:23):
mean that I was ignoring myacademic or family
responsibilities.
That's important.
It's important to me and that Iwant to challenge all gamers
always to keep your prioritiesstraight.
You can play games a lot, butdon't forget what's important to
you.
But that slash played is whatwe're talking about here.
Thanks for the extra fiveminutes to get there.
(25:44):
Games like Star Wars, the OldRepublic they're MMORPPGs.
The goal is not for me to playand have fun.
The goal is for me to stayengaged and keep showing up, to
sign in full stop.
The end goal of why they dothings in that game, when they
program it and develop it, isnot actually fun number one.
I would say it's fun number two.
(26:04):
Number one is engagement.
Keep the environment of thegame as alive as possible.
You need players for it to feelthat way, and so they designed
the game with little tricks toencourage me to do things I've
done before, over and over again, and most online games of
service do this.
This is not a Star Wars the OldRepublic thing.
(26:26):
It's a World of Warcraft thing.
It's also a Candy Crush thing.
It's a Marvel Rivals thing.
It's a Dead by Daylight thing.
It is an online video gamething.
All right.
So while some video games arelike play me, you can finish me
in 12 hours, hope you have funand have a story you'll remember
(26:47):
for a while.
You can finish me in 12 hours,hope you have fun and have a
story you'll remember for awhile.
The online games are goingafter your lifestyle, right?
Yep, I'm not saying that's abad thing.
It's their business model.
There are many things in lifethat we do that are going after
your lifestyle Schools, churches, occupations.
Some of these things help youpay the bills.
(27:09):
Some of them give you a hobby,some of them give you a
community you belong to, butlet's just call it out.
Some of these video games aregoing after your lifestyle, and
that's the currency theyactually want from you?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Well, yeah, so you're completely correct.
The online live service game ismeant to keep you engaged.
So in june of 2020, steam starwars the old republic came out
on steam.
Now that was towards the tailend of me playing.
(27:46):
I think I played for reallytruly, another year or so, but I
have 800 hours clocked.
But in Destiny 2, I have over1,000 27 hours clocked, and I
only played Destiny 2 for acouple years, really truly so
(28:08):
it's.
It just proves where you knowwhere Elden Ring, I have 169
hours clocked.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
But I don't have to keep playing it.
I mean, I can play the rest ofthe DLC, but I'm not.
It's not a game.
That's like forcing me to comeback because of new content.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Marcus, can I beat a dead horse and maybe a horse
that?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
our audience doesn't know is dead.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
You know it would help you play that opening area
in the game but not have togrind that first campsite 50
times.
What new game plus?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Well, I'm going to.
I don't want to do new gameplus through shadow of the earth
tree I'm gonna do shadow of theearth tree and then I'll decide
all right but I needed a breakand now I really like clara.
Expedition 34 you should.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
It's one of the best games of all time doritos.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
How many hours do you have in Star Wars?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
All total.
Why are you calling him out onour show like that?
This is public information.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
What's wrong with that?
I have no problem sharing.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Well, he's been playing it since it came out.
Yeah, he's the one that didn'tquit.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Yeah, so of all time on all characters, probably over
19,000 hours over the past 14years, so it's averaging about
1,800 hours a year.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
How many hours are, even in a year?
Do we know that?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Oh, if you go by an actual 40-hour workweek job,
there's 2,080 man hours in ayear, so roughly a man year.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
There are 8,736 hours in a year.
Well, in 52 weeks that'sawesome so if you have 18,000,
that's like 2.3 years of time.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Across all my characters.
Yeah, Across all yourcharacters.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Right and what makes you come back, Like what's your
driving factor to make you comeback to a game?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Replayability, so the enjoyment of it, the graphics I
mean, so tour plenty ofcommunity in there.
So I mean I've played what masseffect?
I played through the legendaryedition once, but I've played
through mass effect one, fivetimes.
(30:47):
So part of it is the OCcompletionist bit where I want
to get all the achievements.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Sure.
How many times have you playedMass Effect 2?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Four.
I've played it.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Zero, Marcus we know, but you might have not played
mass effect, but you're anaward-winning author that's true
.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Thank you, marcus.
It's an author and in my book Idid talk about mass effect yeah
, I feel like that's like notright because you never played
it.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
You shouldn't talk about a game that, that is.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
I have played it.
I played the demo of MassEffect 2.
I played the first 15 hours ofMass Effect 1 on my beautiful
R2-D2 Xbox 360.
Before the Red Ring of Death Inever got the Red Ring of Death.
Wow, my stuff is clean, marcus.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
It's only ever been with one gamer.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Nice.
I think I got it two or threetimes well you shouldn't be
passing your xbox around toeverybody, jeez that's how those
things get transmitted, manwhat would you say?
Your favorite game that wasn'ta triple a game.
What was?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
it besides expedition 33.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I think we got to add that because if you've listened
to the last 25 episodes of thispodcast, right, that's like
unfair yeah, yeah, because yes,well, no, you could say it's
that because then it is not atriple, a title, that is, is not
owned by the big five, orwhatever.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh, what are the big five?
Marcus?
Ea, Epic, Tencent bioware notbioware, because that's owned by
ea we say like sony sony bandainamco microsoft microsoft
(32:53):
microsoft has become such akingpin the last three years
just buying up everything yeah,but now they're laying off so
many of that group though yeah,that's true, it's very sad.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
But okay, here comes positive Marcus.
Yeah, as a game dev, it sucks.
You lose your job.
But most game devs, once theylose their job, they start their
own and they create an indiegame or they create something
and they end up creating a wholenew studio and it's a whole new
circle of life I got aexhibition 33.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yes, thank you ubisoft yeah that game exists
because ubisoft laid off thosepeople and they're just like.
We can make a game without you.
Watch this.
That's so epic.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
So I watched the making of Claire Obscure one
night when I was laying in bedand I just put my phone on the
wireless charger and I kind ofwatch it until it's time to fall
asleep.
And they were talking about howit happened with Ubisoft and
they actually said they weregoing to bring it to the Ubisoft
team to create the game andthey said that in order to get
(34:09):
Ubisoft to actually do it wouldhave taken them 20 years to get
the approval because they wouldhave never thought it would have
worked.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Because of this, the board of directors or whatever-
yeah, cause they look at thingsin terms of profitability and
their algorithms and theirmetrics.
And right, you know it's it'sso hard in terms of
profitability and theiralgorithms and their metrics
Right, it's so hard.
Movies are experiencing thistoo.
It's why Marvel does all thesemovies and then it's really hard
(34:35):
to see anything that's not abig IP tentpole thing actually
make it into theaters.
I also think my answer is I gotto disqualify the obvious
answer, which is Journey by thatgame company.
You know, like, we have a wholeepisode back in the day where
(34:57):
Jenny and I did a narration of afull playthrough of that game.
Like it's in the DNA of theshow, it's in who it is, who I
am as a person at this point,and it's an indie game.
You know it's.
It's a very small game todownload.
You can play it on your phone,like and that's not a new thing
Like you can play Resident EvilVillage on your phone.
(35:18):
Now, coincidentally, talking alot about that game, that was
not my bingo card, but you knowit's been on the apple app store
for over a decade even have youguys ever played baldur's gate
3 yeah, I played it this morningall right.
So would you say that's a triple, a game yes so larian studios
(35:42):
is a big one they spent a longtime making that game.
Marcus, like I played the demofor that game at my very first
pax east that I went to wow,that was a long time ago first
psychology of pokemon panel, sothat would have been like 20, 21
or 22, and then the game was inbeta testing so you could play
(36:06):
the opening act of the game.
But it wasn't the full game andit was in development and
everything was with thatasterisk of everything subject
to change.
The full release of that gamewas a big deal, long time coming
.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Okay, then there it is.
I was just curious.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
So I guess, Marcus, what are you defining as a AAA
studio?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
If it's the big five, six, whatever it is, it's the
big big ones.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
The household giant name?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
yeah, but I don't know anything about larian
studios like did they publishthe game on the?
Budget than it is the thestudio, though yeah, maybe yeah,
you don't have to be, you don'thave to be a big guy to have a
big budget.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
That's true.
You have to have the right guyto have a big budget.
That's true, you have to havethe right investors.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
I want to ask an interesting question about this.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Hold on, doc.
You have to have investors thathave big pockets to create a
AAA.
You're right, doritos.
So it doesn't have to do withthe dev, it has to do with the
money soaked into the game.
So then, what would youconsider the money Like?
How much money do you have tospend for us to label it a AAA
(37:31):
studio?
100 million, 200 million?
Speaker 1 (37:35):
I want to throw out an interesting question because
obviously God of War Ragnarok isa AAA game.
Made by Sony yep, sony, santaMonica, right, but what if I
said God of War 1 for the PS2?
That was still a big budget forthen, what did Sony, santa
(37:59):
Monica do even before God of War1?
I don't know the answer to thisquestion.
I don't know how much money ittook to make that game and I
know inflation and the year theycame out probably like 2006,
right?
Speaker 2 (38:13):
So the original God of War cost 22 million.
The budget for the game was 10million, but it went to 22
million in 2005.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
In 2005,.
Right, so is 22 million in 2005in 2005.
Right, so is 22 million in 2005a triple-a game, okay, so game
development costs in 2025 weresignificantly lower than today.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Later titles budgets for sequels like god of war 3
was 44 million.
God of war rock was 200 million, which is much higher,
reflecting the increasing costand complexity of a AAA game
development.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
So my question is was God of War 1 a AAA title?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I think for the time yes.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Budgetarily, you're talking tens of millions of
dollars to be considered a AAAtitle.
So you know, even if it's, youknow, 15 to 25 million, that's
still pushing the boundaries ofAAA game.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Of course, yeah.
So I'm just thinking about thegames that I've really enjoyed
and what is the first game bythat studio that I ever played
and trying to figure out?
At some point, these AAAstudios were a studio making a
game that a lot of peoplebelieved in, lot of people
(39:48):
believed in, so I'm thinkingabout games like bioshock.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
I'm thinking about the very first devil may cry, or
the first resident evil on theps1.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, the original halo is it possible for halo,
published directly by microsoftwith the launch of the xbox
console, okay, bungie, right.
Like, is that?
Were they ever indie?
I don't know.
(40:21):
I think that this is a littlebit up to our own definitions
too.
I don't think this is a reallabel.
I think it's just a way toseparate expectations for game
audiences and say like, oh, thisone should have this because it
cost a lot of money to make andhad full corporate backing by a
(40:41):
major corporation and had fullcorporate backing by a major
corporation.
And then this one, we canexpect different style of
graphics, different style ofvoice work, different style of
game involvement for the gameplayer to experience it, because
it was made by a smaller studio, a smaller budget, a smaller
(41:02):
period of time.
Well, maybe not in HollowKnight's case, because that game
took a long time too.
Yeah, but is Hollow Knight aAAA game or is it still an indie
game?
Like, I'm sure, the first one,you could argue for its indie
status, but it's got such anaudience now Everyone's talking
(41:26):
about it, but they stillreleased it.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
They haven't, but it's releasing for $20.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
That might just be because of the price point, that
the amount they spent on it andtheir estimate of how it can
become profitable.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
I'm going to ask Google what the best indie games
of all time are, and ouranswers are Hades, celeste,
hollow Knight, dardu Valley,cuphead, journey, cuphead, the
Binding of Isaac Ori and theWill of the Wisp.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Hey, Doritos is playing that Bellatro.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Undertale.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Bellatro's a card game.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
It was nominated for Game of the Year last year and
many people bought it onmultiple consoles because it was
affordable and people wereaddicted to it and wanted to be
able to play it on everythingthey owned yeah, well, it was
one of the best.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
It was like number one on the steam deck for a
whole year yeah, because it runswell on the Steam Deck Disco
Elysium Spirit Farer.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Oh, I love that one.
That was one of my favoriteparts of my book to write about
Tunic Mm-hmm.
Fez Papers Please.
Sifu Shovel Knight Fall GuysGone Home.
Papers please, seafood shovel.
Night fall.
Guys gone home fall guys, huh,that's what they said fall guys
(43:17):
was fun oh, would we say, amongus is an indie game.
Yeah yeah binding of Isaac.
Did I say that earlier?
Speaker 3 (43:26):
I'm surprised Minecraft hadn't been on the
list yet.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Minecraft isn't an indie game.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
It's not on.
Oh Outlast.
Look at that Horror beingrepresented.
Love that.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Subnautica.
Yes, that game's creepy.
I watched somebody play thatgame Outlast.
It made it because the game islike the scariest game you'll
ever play.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
That sounds fun wait, you've never played outlast I
have it in my backlog on steam,and october is happening soon
though but if you're gonna playit, I think you need to play it
in complete pitch black in youroffice well, I am in pitch black
with all my purple and bluelights you gotta turn everything
off and I can't stream in thedark yes, you can, though.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
That's the whole point of the horror, your screen
, your face, is the only thinglit up and to get the full
effect.
So when it scares the bejesusout of you, you're fucking.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Marcus, you might see me in the light right now, but
I have the darkness inside of me.
I'm always in there.
I do not fear the dark side asyou do.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
I just rolled my eyes so hard I have brought peace,
justice, security to my newempire.
Oh my God, I can't believe youjust did that.
So maybe three weeks ago or so,I was at work and I was talking
to Doc because I don't knowthat's what we do and we were
(45:03):
talking about books and audiobooks and all this, and he goes
oh my fate.
And I said what I don't knowhow it came up, but he said his
one of his favorite books is, uh, revenge of the sith, an audio
book, because it like portrayedwho he is kind of sort of with
anakin.
And I was like I didn't evenknow they had an.
(45:25):
I didn't even know they had anovelization for Revenge of the
Sith, let alone an audio version, so I downloaded it.
I'm going to tell you right nowif you do audiobooks, do
yourself a favor and listen to,to Revenge of the Sith.
It has to be the darkestversion of Star Wars ever
(45:50):
written, because you feel thepain of Anakin Skywalker through
the whole movie and you reallyfeel bad for Mace Windu.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
No.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
No.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
No, you will fail.
Oh sorry, did that?
My phone fell off my monitor?
Yeah, because it was reallyconvincing.
So, yep, I'm glad you enjoyed it, because I'm serious the poetry
for each section of that bookbecause there's section
transitions with poetry aboutthe balance between light and
(46:27):
dark and what it's reflected inthe character of Anakin and how
Anakin is a metaphor for thebalance in the galaxy because
he's the chosen one, those poemshave meant everything to me
since 2005.
They seriously are what I useto reflect on how I fit into the
(46:48):
things happening in the worldor the things that I hope to
have an impact on.
They're just beautiful andthey're tragic and heartbreaking
and they still give you hopebecause you know, the whole
point of Revenge of the Sith isthat it leads you into a new
hope, right Like that.
That truly is the entire reason, for the story is doom and
(47:09):
gloom and devastation in thedark winds, but it still ends
with the twin sunset and andLuke and Leia.
Right and sorry, spoilers forRevenge of the Sith, but you
know, go watch the movie.
What even were we talking about?
We had the Revenge of the Sith,but go watch the movie.
What even were we talking about?
We had Revenge of the Sith, wehad Journey.
(47:29):
Oh, favorite, most influentialindie game.
I read that big list.
I didn't read all 100 games inthe list, but the ones that I've
heard of and I know we'vementioned before on the history
of the show.
Anything pop out to either ofyou from the games I just threw
out there, blurted my god myfavorite from ign.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
I mean, journey is always a good one.
I've never played it.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
You can always say mass effect, marcus it's not an
indie game I'm kidding of courseit's not.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
I mean I've got, uh, I've wrapped up, or in the blind
forest, I mean that's stillreally good.
So that whole honestlyfranchise.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Mine is Norman's Night in the Cave.
Norman, yeah, so we met Iremember that.
Nick and I went to PAX East itwas our first year with media
badges we met the developers forthis game called Norman's Night
in the Cave and it's aMetroidvania kind of and it's a
(48:32):
slingshot mechanic where youlike bounce off stuff.
You can't like actually jump.
Everything is like spring, likeslingshot, it's about angles
and geometry and stuff.
And we met them.
Nick Irofino was the dev and hecame on the podcast a bunch of
times and we helped promote thegame and I had so much fun
(48:55):
playing that game because Iplayed it on my phone but you
could get it.
You can get it on steam as well, but it was so much fun to be
able to play that.
You know, in random times, ohshit, I've got five or six
minutes to waste because I'mwaiting for my kid to be ready
or gymnastics to be over orsomething and you could play
(49:17):
this game and it was so much funand it's like $3.99.
Let's see if it's still on here.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I don't know if games get removed from Steam.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
They can, but if you've bought them, you still
get to own them.
Norman's Night In.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Yep, you can still get it.
I have a question for both ofyou.
Is going back to 1980 andplaying Super Mario Brothers an
indie game, or was Nintendo bigenough even back then?
Speaker 3 (49:58):
they were big enough back then.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
So that's a triple A game too like did any yeah, like
did triple A gaming exist inthe 1980s?
Like could I say, final fantasyone is my favorite indie game I
don't think that was an indiegame it was the final fantasy
before they go bankrupt andtheir studio dies.
(50:22):
But it hit and it propelledSquare Enix into what it is now.
I would argue that is an indiegame that just launched a crazy
successful franchise.
I mean, that's my point withlike we started out small with
God of War, like obviously Godof War is a AAA game for the PS2
(50:44):
, right.
But my argument is games with avery good vision and great
execution are what allow thesestudios to become AAA studios.
But that first hit was not AAA.
It just has the reputation oflaunching the AAA for that group
(51:04):
of people.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
And as you ponder that, continue the journey.
Thank you.
Welcome to the Gaming Persona Podcast.
This is the show that exploreswho we become when we play games
, whether you're saving kingdoms, leading epic raids or just
vibing in cozy indie worlds.
Join me, dr Gamology and mygood friend Marcus as we search
for all the ways gaming andpersonal growth collide.
Grab your controllers and let'scontinue the journey Now.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Holy cow, holy cow.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
That's where Swiss cheese comes from.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
It's a bit sensationalist to start our
episode, but I'll bite what'sgoing on, marcus, all right
going on, marcus, all right.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So if you followed the adhd journey of marcus b814
for the last years, I went fromfat marcus to less fat marcus,
started playing hockey, whichhas, in turn, made me more
social than I already am, andthen one of my skates per week
ended and there was a group ofpeople like five of us that
(01:14):
didn't have anywhere to playhockey.
So I did what Marcus does andtalk to people who own ranks
where my son plays, and it'sreally hard to get them to give
you a sheet of ice, becausethere's a lot of people that
want it.
Well, they decided to give me asheet of ice this past summer.
So since may, I have beenrunning a pickup hockey league
(01:40):
every week and filling it blah,blah, blah.
There's a big pickup skate.
Pickup skates are like randompeople you can sign in.
It's like no commitment hockey.
Like, hey, I got a Wednesdaynight free, I'm going to go play
hockey.
You sign into this app, youclick that, you're in.
You pay the money, you go playhockey.
Well, there's an actualbusiness in my area that does
(02:03):
this and they host anywhere from40 to 70 skates a week all
across my state and out near meand the Western part of my state
.
There's three a week andthey've really been struggling.
Well, I was reached out to bythe said company because they're
(02:25):
upset that I've been stealingtheir business without taking
their business and they'veoffered me a job.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
So you become a professional poacher.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So in my world right now, I in the next few days will
be driving to Boston to meetwith this company and discuss
future employment, to help runthe western part of my skate and
help grow it to be what it isout east.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So is this like a career change or is it like a
side hustle?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I'm looking at it as a side hustle, but my friends
and my wife think it's going tobe a full-time job opportunity.
Whoa, that's so cool.
So I'm going to go from being acarpenter to a hockey bro.
What can go?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
wrong Everything, doritos.
I feel like this really tiesinto our sort of dialogue or our
narrative that Marcus has to bethe group leader, right?
Because he's like, screw this,I don't get to have the ice
skating rink.
He's like, screw this, I don'tget to have the ice skating rink
(03:48):
.
So I'll just go promote myselfand convince someone to give me
their skating rink, and thenI'll make a team and then I'll
make sure people show up to dothe raid.
I mean the hockey game and I'llmake rinks.
It's working class rinks it's.
It's death star skaters it's.
You know, it's everything I'veever known Marcus to be, but he
just hockey-fied it.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So it's really something that I had to talk
about here.
I know it doesn't have to dowith video games everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It does.
I just made it about videogames, marcus.
Your identity and who I'vealways thought you are, since I
raided with you, is a metaphorfor what you just did with your
hockey league stuff, and that isnot something to be upset about
.
That's freaking amazing.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I just you know what it is it's.
I don't want to see my friendsnot have somewhere to go, and I
guess it has to do with likerating.
Like my friends, I wanted themall to play together, so I made
a team and I made everybody diea lot yes, you did.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I mean what?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
no no yeah, I did, but you know something that it
doesn't trigger this, but itmade me think about this week is
, and I don't know if this couldbe our topic or not, but it's
been on my mind.
So do you guys know what hollownight is?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I just started playing it today, Marcus the
first one.
No, I would, what Heck no.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Playing silk song.
Okay, I've got.
I've got the first one.
I haven't downloaded it yet,all right.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
So silk song came out , it broke Steam right 500
million downloads or 500, likemillions of downloads within
minutes.
It's like crash Steam.
But you have this game, whichis a 2D side scroller,
metrovania, souls-like.
It's actually a lot like aSouls game, but my point is it's
(05:47):
$20.
Yeah, and then you have theseAAA games that are $40, I mean
$50, $60, $70 that aren't asgood as this $20 game, and it
makes you ask yourself whatmakes a game so expensive in
comparison.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I want to also add to this conversation that Claire
Obscure Expedition 33 was $49.99.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Right, and it was made by a team of, with all
their subcontractors, a team of200.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, and people in the base studio was like
30-something.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, it was 33.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, yeah, I know Allegedly.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah, but my point is do you guys I mean some of my
favorite games that I've playedweren't triple A games?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Of course you know I want to throw out the idea of
movies.
You know I don't have aspecific movie to call out here.
Actually I do.
Are you both familiar with themovie Clerks?
Yes, oh yeah, yeah, okay.
Clerks, yes, oh, yeah, yeah,okay.
So the the view is universe.
(07:09):
You know Kevin Smith has allthese movies that I grew up
loving and you know just JaneSilent Bob love the whole thing.
But Clerks was made on a budgetbecause Kevin Smith was not
really anybody back then.
Right, and it's an amazing movie.
It's it's fun to watch eventoday, and it's more fun to
watch than 30% of the Marvelmovies that all cost hundreds of
(07:35):
millions of dollars to throwtogether.
Because of the effects andbecause of how many people are
in there doing the writing andthe editing, and then the camera
people and the salaries for theactors.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I was just going to say that.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah.
So you put Robert Downey Jr onscreen for one second and you
just add $50 million to yourbudget.
So nobody was like that.
On Clerks Clerks 2, by the way,has Ahsoka Tano in it.
So I just want to throw thatout there for a nice Star Wars
(08:11):
reference.
I love Rosario Dawson.
So my point is that's kind ofwhat happens with video games.
You get a big studio that hashigh, skyrocketed expectations
for their game, like Naughty Dogmaking.
Eventually they're going tomake the Last of Us Part 3, I'm
(08:33):
sure.
But you look at how much moneyhave they put into the Last of
Us Part 2 and all the remastersof the Last of Us Part 1 and
making sure that game is currenton the most current hardware so
that people who fall in lovewith the TV show on HBO Max have
something that's modern astheir first introduction to
playing it as a game.
(08:54):
And you spend millions andmillions on those game
experiences so that it's asperfect as you can make it.
And then there's other gamesthat are just like.
We can choose an art style thatdoesn't require a thousand
people team to refine thegraphics.
You know that's Hollow Knight,you know it's.
(09:16):
I'm sure you can do the kindsof things in Hollow Knight with
straight out of college, or evenduring college, depending on
what you're learning as an artdesigner and graphics designer.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, yes, I'm with you and it's for me.
It's just, you see, all theseAAA games that come out that
cost all this money, and yet a$20 game is better than most of
those games that they spenthundreds of millions on well,
this perspective, though, better, more popular, I mean.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah, so a lot of people have downloaded it, a lot
of people are playing it, a lotof people playing it on twitch
and various those streamingplatforms, but you know what's
how long is the content, though.
Is it a 15 hour game?
Is it a 20 hour game?
Is it as hard?
I mean, I haven't played it yet.
So, doc, is it really as hardas elden ring?
(10:15):
I made it look hard, but youwhat you were learning though I
mean it's like you're still.
You know, you go to lingrave forthe first time and you die a
lot till you learn parrying anddodging and and.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Don't fight the tree sentinel that's up to you, or do
fight the tree sentinel.
Okay, we're gonna have to put apin in that this is a difficult
game thing, because I want toinclude that in this episode,
but it's not the right time.
So, everyone, I am promisingyou a mental health moment, this
episode where I will just openup everything about me as a
(10:53):
gamer and let you watch all ofmy pain, just explain who I am
when I play a new video game.
The thing that I was tickled bythe most during my stream today
, doritos was I got the firsttrophy in the game at least
right the path that I took andthe playstation network said one
(11:18):
percent of people that own thisgame have this trophy the first
one.
So we're days into the gamebeing out a week.
Right, we talked about this asthe opener for last week, but
none of us had a chance to playit.
So now, a week later, I haveplayed it.
One percent of people who ownthe game have the first trophy
(11:41):
in the game, right, right?
So that means people are buyingit because of fandom and
curiosity, and the hype and thelore of this game is that it
took forever to came out, tocome out, and so it's 20.
So I can drop the 20 on itwhether I play it or not, right?
I think that that's something alot of game players will think.
(12:03):
They'll'll add it to theirbacklog.
It's not expensive and it's amoment.
Hollow Knight Silksong is havinga moment, but people aren't
necessarily playing it yet.
It honestly is, because I didmy first two TikTok lives this
(12:24):
week since the last episode, andthese are different activities
than what I do on Twitch,because I haven't actually
played any video games on TikTok.
I'm actually doing this onTikTok and talking about the
psychology of being a gamer andtalking about.
What is the gamer's journey andwhat can we learn about
ourselves, the way we play gamesJust talking with the
(12:47):
PlayStation in the background,so you hear the noise on the
menu of whatever game I'mthinking about playing and
that's the background track forthe conversation.
But I have no intent of playingvideo games on TikTok until I
get my stream key.
I'm there to create an offshootfor the gaming persona, which
Marcus I'm going to announcethis now because Doritos knows,
(13:09):
because he was on the streamthis morning Doing just the
talking on TikTok has made medecide that I'm going to start
recording what I'm going to callthe gaming persona solo quest.
It's going to go into the samefeed as the gaming persona and
it's not going to be every timeI do TikTok, but once in a while
(13:30):
, like once a week, once everytwo weeks, I'm going to pick one
and it's going to be me doing asolo walkthrough of the
academic side of the gamingpersona, topics of like.
Here's the research.
Here's my observation as aexpert in psychology and as a
clinician who has worked withhundreds or thousands of gamers.
And this is how you play in ahealthy way and this is how you
(13:53):
find the love of video games tobuild you up, because society is
so quick to say, oh, you playvideo games, you're ruining your
life, right?
And it's like no, marcus is araid leader and he just took
over hockey in Boston.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
That's right.
No, it's not.
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
No, just Western Mass .
Let me blow you up, Marcus.
Wait, wait, that can be clippedin very bad ways.
Let me celebrate your victories, Marcus.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Well, I'm going to go back to the 1% trophy for that.
Whatever trophy you got, whatyou got.
I googled the Godric theGrafted trophy Just trophies.
This is just PlayStation as ofJuly 11th 2025, so the game's
been out three years, threeyears yeah.
(14:42):
Only 56.3% of PlayStationplayers have the Godric the
Grafted trophy.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
That's the first boss in the game that has a trophy
to it Right 53% of people thathave bought 56.3% of people that
have bought the game on thePlayStation Store.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Just over half the people have gotten that far.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
The PlayStation Store just over half the people have
gotten that far 43% of peoplethat have bought the game have
not killed Godric the Grafted.
They've quit Quitters.
You should be ashamed ofyourself.
You gotta live your journey.
Come on, people.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Alright, well, no, so I'm gonna go with this.
I started that new character inElden Ring on the PlayStation
and it's actually really hard tostart a character fresh.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
It's so hard.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Because I already know where to go and what to do.
So I'm kind of like pushingmyself forward, where before,
like that first encampment youfind by, where, like I don't
know if you meet ronnie ormillennia where they give you
like the steed yeah, I know whatyou're talking about.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
It's the place where you grind it 50 times.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yes, I grinded that over and over and over and over
just to level up.
But now I'm there, I'm like Idon't, you don't get that many
runes here, why am I gonna farmthis?
But then I went into the firstdungeon with only going up one
or two levels and that firstboss in that like cave, the guy
with the giant nose yeah hewhooped my ass like I won right
(16:25):
because you rolling Marcus.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
No, no, I didn't die.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I beat him, but it literally took a lot of hits to
beat this guy.
Oh yeah, when before?
Speaker 3 (16:36):
And then he put his, then he equipped a sword.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Ah, I try to punch the stone, boss.
It's like that episode ofDoctor who where he keeps living
his life and punching thediamond wall and then dying
instantly.
And he takes like millions oflife regenerations to break
through a diamond wall bypunching it with his fist, but
(17:00):
that's literally the onlysolution to the problem.
It's one of my favoriteepisodes of Doctor, whoever.
It's from the Peter Capaldi eraof him being the 12th Doctor.
I know we don't usually talkDoctor who on here, but that's
really important to me because Idid my PhD program because I
(17:21):
just wanted to be able to callmyself a doctor.
Honestly, I thought this iswithin my capability and I love
Doctor who enough that I want todo this.
I want to go do it.
Alright, back to you, marcus.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Back to me.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Punch that stone boss with your fists.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
No, it's just because I pulled up the top played
Steam deck games and I look at,most of these games aren't AAA
games, but they're some of themost played on the Steam Deck
Because they run well on theSteam Deck.
(18:01):
Well, okay, yes, I guess mypoint is that a game doesn't
have to be a AAA game to begreat.
But when will these AAA studiosrealize that and realize that
these, like Claire Obscure 33people built that game plus some
(18:24):
contractors 33 people builtthat game plus some contractors
where you have studios likeBungie who have thousands of
employees trying to make Destiny2, and they still fail?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Destiny 2 is an online game of service that is
trying to pack in so manyactivities into the game that it
becomes a player's lifestyle,and that is a different thing to
build than a game that has apurpose, a goal, a story and a
finite calculation of hours thatyou want a person to experience
(19:00):
it to go through one time.
Whenever you create gear grinds, you are expecting people to
play that content forever untilthey pass out and die or hydrate
, and it's not very healthy forpsychology if all the games you
(19:20):
play have these kinds of grinds.
I was just talking with a groupof mental health counselors
about this.
They asked me a question aboutwhat's the difference between a
game where most people play itin a healthy way and games where
most people play it in anunhealthy way.
I was talking about how.
What are the game developerstrying to do in terms of
(19:40):
generating engagement?
So let's take a Resident Evilgame, marcus.
Okay, you shoot things, they'refirst person.
So let's compare my ResidentEvils with your Destiny 2.
What's the difference?
Even if I'm trying to PlatinumTrophy, resident Evil Village,
(20:00):
the eighth game in the sequenceof core games, I'm going to play
that game.
I don't know.
Off the top of my head, theyhave websites to explain this,
but I would't know.
Off the top of my head, theyhave websites to explain this,
but I would guess that 60 hoursright and the platinum trophy.
For people who don't know,that's a list of achievements
the game builds into the thegame developers have built into
the game and by me accomplishingevery single one of them, I've
(20:24):
cleared all activities in thegame successfully.
That's what it means.
So that's like overachiever,perfectionist, completionist
gamer.
We want the platinum trophy.
That's a badge of honor that Iam one of the best at this game,
because it matters to me.
Destiny 2 can it be platinumtrophied on the ps5?
(20:45):
Is that a thing that they builtin?
I mean so in order to like maxout everything and clear all
bosses and instances on thehighest difficulty.
How much time would that take?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I don't think there's trophies, or at least on Steam.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Well, there you go.
Well, OK, so you're playingbecause of your own goals
instead of the goals the gamestudio gave you.
That's fine, and I actuallylike that more from a motivation
perspective.
But how long would it take todo that same level of mastery in
destiny 2 that we justdescribed in resident evil
village?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
a long time.
Thank you a long time becauseprobably hundreds of 500 hours.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
What did you say?
Speaker 3 (21:34):
doritos, hundreds of hours, 500, I don't know again,
a lot of it's going to be, ifit's, if it's instances and
bosses, because a lot of it's,you know, raid content.
So you're gonna have to have asolid, constant group, like you
would in most mmos when you doraids, especially if you're
(21:54):
doing progression raiding.
That would be able to gothrough those, learn the fights
and then become proficient atthem yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So I want to bring us back to a game all of us have
loved for a very long time inour life Star Wars, the Old
Republic.
Oh boy, do we all remember thevery first Dark vs Light event?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I, of course, do.
I was collecting my data frommy dissertation during this
event.
It was a very important time inmy life.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Could you tell everybody what the Dark vs Light
event was?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
time in my life Could you tell everybody what the
dark versus light event was?
Yeah, so in the game of StarWars, the Old Republic, there
are a lot of moral choices, andmoral choices in Star Wars come
down to are you championing thelight side of the force and
doing good in the universe, orare you powering up the dark
side and spreading death anddevastation at your own whims
(22:48):
and fancies, using the dark sideto kill?
the dark side of the force, andall the thousands and thousands
of daily accounts that weresigning in were being tracked by
the studio the entire summer tosee does this population of
gamers champion the light sideor the dark side of the force?
(23:11):
And there was an incentive thatwe would get a special
companion that represented acomplete alignment with either
the light side or the dark side,based on which side of the
force we chose.
It's a voting system with ourmorality chose.
(23:31):
It's a voting system with ourmorality, and one of the coolest
things that I ever did is Iwent on UtiniCast after I
collected my data of players andI had a question about the
morality choices.
It was so staggering in thelight side direction that,
months before the end of thiscompetition, I told Chill and
Tio, the hosts of that show, itwill be the light side and it
(23:52):
will not even be close, and Iwas right.
So yay for science.
That was just cool, because Ireally put my name out there and
it would have been devastatingif the dark side won.
So that's fun.
The reason I bring that up,though, is during that event is
(24:14):
the first time that I everlearned that you could put in
the chat, slash played okay, Idid not know this was a thing,
and of course, it 2016.
So I've been playing the gamesince 2011,.
Right, is that correct?
Yeah, so five years of playing,and in 2016, I typed slash
(24:38):
played.
And what that does is the gametells you how long exactly
you've been playing on theaccount that you have signed in
playing on the account that youhave signed in and it told me a
number that was more than 365days.
So more than 365 times 24 hoursin a day is how long I had
(25:00):
played Star Wars the OldRepublic in the first five years
of it being out.
I spent 20% of my existence onplanet Earth playing Star Wars
the Old Republic and, by the way, just to remind you of what's
really important to me, I gotall A's in my doc program during
that too.
So you know, just because I wasplaying games a lot doesn't
(25:23):
mean that I was ignoring myacademic or family
responsibilities.
That's important.
It's important to me and that Iwant to challenge all gamers
always to keep your prioritiesstraight.
You can play games a lot, butdon't forget what's important to
you.
But that slash played is whatwe're talking about here.
Thanks for the extra fiveminutes to get there.
(25:44):
Games like Star Wars, the OldRepublic they're MMORPPGs.
The goal is not for me to playand have fun.
The goal is for me to stayengaged and keep showing up, to
sign in full stop.
The end goal of why they dothings in that game, when they
program it and develop it, isnot actually fun number one.
I would say it's fun number two.
(26:04):
Number one is engagement.
Keep the environment of thegame as alive as possible.
You need players for it to feelthat way, and so they designed
the game with little tricks toencourage me to do things I've
done before, over and over again, and most online games of
service do this.
This is not a Star Wars the OldRepublic thing.
(26:26):
It's a World of Warcraft thing.
It's also a Candy Crush thing.
It's a Marvel Rivals thing.
It's a Dead by Daylight thing.
It is an online video gamething.
All right.
So while some video games arelike play me, you can finish me
in 12 hours, hope you have funand have a story you'll remember
(26:47):
for a while.
You can finish me in 12 hours,hope you have fun and have a
story you'll remember for awhile.
The online games are goingafter your lifestyle, right?
Yep, I'm not saying that's abad thing.
It's their business model.
There are many things in lifethat we do that are going after
your lifestyle Schools, churches, occupations.
Some of these things help youpay the bills.
(27:09):
Some of them give you a hobby,some of them give you a
community you belong to, butlet's just call it out.
Some of these video games aregoing after your lifestyle, and
that's the currency theyactually want from you?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Well, yeah, so you're completely correct.
The online live service game ismeant to keep you engaged.
So in june of 2020, steam starwars the old republic came out
on steam.
Now that was towards the tailend of me playing.
(27:46):
I think I played for reallytruly, another year or so, but I
have 800 hours clocked.
But in Destiny 2, I have over1,000 27 hours clocked, and I
only played Destiny 2 for acouple years, really truly so
(28:08):
it's.
It just proves where you knowwhere Elden Ring, I have 169
hours clocked.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
But I don't have to keep playing it.
I mean, I can play the rest ofthe DLC, but I'm not.
It's not a game.
That's like forcing me to comeback because of new content.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Marcus, can I beat a dead horse and maybe a horse
that?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
our audience doesn't know is dead.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
You know it would help you play that opening area
in the game but not have togrind that first campsite 50
times.
What new game plus?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Well, I'm going to.
I don't want to do new gameplus through shadow of the earth
tree I'm gonna do shadow of theearth tree and then I'll decide
all right but I needed a breakand now I really like clara.
Expedition 34 you should.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
It's one of the best games of all time doritos.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
How many hours do you have in Star Wars?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
All total.
Why are you calling him out onour show like that?
This is public information.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
What's wrong with that?
I have no problem sharing.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Well, he's been playing it since it came out.
Yeah, he's the one that didn'tquit.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Yeah, so of all time on all characters, probably over
19,000 hours over the past 14years, so it's averaging about
1,800 hours a year.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
How many hours are, even in a year?
Do we know that?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Oh, if you go by an actual 40-hour workweek job,
there's 2,080 man hours in ayear, so roughly a man year.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
There are 8,736 hours in a year.
Well, in 52 weeks that'sawesome so if you have 18,000,
that's like 2.3 years of time.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Across all my characters.
Yeah, Across all yourcharacters.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Right and what makes you come back, Like what's your
driving factor to make you comeback to a game?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Replayability, so the enjoyment of it, the graphics I
mean, so tour plenty ofcommunity in there.
So I mean I've played what masseffect?
I played through the legendaryedition once, but I've played
through mass effect one, fivetimes.
(30:47):
So part of it is the OCcompletionist bit where I want
to get all the achievements.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Sure.
How many times have you playedMass Effect 2?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Four.
I've played it.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Zero, Marcus we know, but you might have not played
mass effect, but you're anaward-winning author that's true
.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Thank you, marcus.
It's an author and in my book Idid talk about mass effect yeah
, I feel like that's like notright because you never played
it.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
You shouldn't talk about a game that, that is.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
I have played it.
I played the demo of MassEffect 2.
I played the first 15 hours ofMass Effect 1 on my beautiful
R2-D2 Xbox 360.
Before the Red Ring of Death Inever got the Red Ring of Death.
Wow, my stuff is clean, marcus.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
It's only ever been with one gamer.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Nice.
I think I got it two or threetimes well you shouldn't be
passing your xbox around toeverybody, jeez that's how those
things get transmitted, manwhat would you say?
Your favorite game that wasn'ta triple a game.
What was?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
it besides expedition 33.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I think we got to add that because if you've listened
to the last 25 episodes of thispodcast, right, that's like
unfair yeah, yeah, because yes,well, no, you could say it's
that because then it is not atriple, a title, that is, is not
owned by the big five, orwhatever.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh, what are the big five?
Marcus?
Ea, Epic, Tencent bioware notbioware, because that's owned by
ea we say like sony sony bandainamco microsoft microsoft
(32:53):
microsoft has become such akingpin the last three years
just buying up everything yeah,but now they're laying off so
many of that group though yeah,that's true, it's very sad.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
But okay, here comes positive Marcus.
Yeah, as a game dev, it sucks.
You lose your job.
But most game devs, once theylose their job, they start their
own and they create an indiegame or they create something
and they end up creating a wholenew studio and it's a whole new
circle of life I got aexhibition 33.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yes, thank you ubisoft yeah that game exists
because ubisoft laid off thosepeople and they're just like.
We can make a game without you.
Watch this.
That's so epic.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
So I watched the making of Claire Obscure one
night when I was laying in bedand I just put my phone on the
wireless charger and I kind ofwatch it until it's time to fall
asleep.
And they were talking about howit happened with Ubisoft and
they actually said they weregoing to bring it to the Ubisoft
team to create the game andthey said that in order to get
(34:09):
Ubisoft to actually do it wouldhave taken them 20 years to get
the approval because they wouldhave never thought it would have
worked.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Because of this, the board of directors or whatever-
yeah, cause they look at thingsin terms of profitability and
their algorithms and theirmetrics.
And right, you know it's it'sso hard in terms of
profitability and theiralgorithms and their metrics
Right, it's so hard.
Movies are experiencing thistoo.
It's why Marvel does all thesemovies and then it's really hard
(34:35):
to see anything that's not abig IP tentpole thing actually
make it into theaters.
I also think my answer is I gotto disqualify the obvious
answer, which is Journey by thatgame company.
You know, like, we have a wholeepisode back in the day where
(34:57):
Jenny and I did a narration of afull playthrough of that game.
Like it's in the DNA of theshow, it's in who it is, who I
am as a person at this point,and it's an indie game.
You know it's.
It's a very small game todownload.
You can play it on your phone,like and that's not a new thing
Like you can play Resident EvilVillage on your phone.
(35:18):
Now, coincidentally, talking alot about that game, that was
not my bingo card, but you knowit's been on the apple app store
for over a decade even have youguys ever played baldur's gate
3 yeah, I played it this morningall right.
So would you say that's a triple, a game yes so larian studios
(35:42):
is a big one they spent a longtime making that game.
Marcus, like I played the demofor that game at my very first
pax east that I went to wow,that was a long time ago first
psychology of pokemon panel, sothat would have been like 20, 21
or 22, and then the game was inbeta testing so you could play
(36:06):
the opening act of the game.
But it wasn't the full game andit was in development and
everything was with thatasterisk of everything subject
to change.
The full release of that gamewas a big deal, long time coming
.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Okay, then there it is.
I was just curious.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
So I guess, Marcus, what are you defining as a AAA
studio?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
If it's the big five, six, whatever it is, it's the
big big ones.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
The household giant name?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
yeah, but I don't know anything about larian
studios like did they publishthe game on the?
Budget than it is the thestudio, though yeah, maybe yeah,
you don't have to be, you don'thave to be a big guy to have a
big budget.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
That's true.
You have to have the right guyto have a big budget.
That's true, you have to havethe right investors.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
I want to ask an interesting question about this.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Hold on, doc.
You have to have investors thathave big pockets to create a
AAA.
You're right, doritos.
So it doesn't have to do withthe dev, it has to do with the
money soaked into the game.
So then, what would youconsider the money Like?
How much money do you have tospend for us to label it a AAA
(37:31):
studio?
100 million, 200 million?
Speaker 1 (37:35):
I want to throw out an interesting question because
obviously God of War Ragnarok isa AAA game.
Made by Sony yep, sony, santaMonica, right, but what if I
said God of War 1 for the PS2?
That was still a big budget forthen, what did Sony, santa
(37:59):
Monica do even before God of War1?
I don't know the answer to thisquestion.
I don't know how much money ittook to make that game and I
know inflation and the year theycame out probably like 2006,
right?
Speaker 2 (38:13):
So the original God of War cost 22 million.
The budget for the game was 10million, but it went to 22
million in 2005.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
In 2005,.
Right, so is 22 million in 2005in 2005.
Right, so is 22 million in 2005a triple-a game, okay, so game
development costs in 2025 weresignificantly lower than today.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Later titles budgets for sequels like god of war 3
was 44 million.
God of war rock was 200 million, which is much higher,
reflecting the increasing costand complexity of a AAA game
development.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
So my question is was God of War 1 a AAA title?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I think for the time yes.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Budgetarily, you're talking tens of millions of
dollars to be considered a AAAtitle.
So you know, even if it's, youknow, 15 to 25 million, that's
still pushing the boundaries ofAAA game.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Of course, yeah.
So I'm just thinking about thegames that I've really enjoyed
and what is the first game bythat studio that I ever played
and trying to figure out?
At some point, these AAAstudios were a studio making a
game that a lot of peoplebelieved in, lot of people
(39:48):
believed in, so I'm thinkingabout games like bioshock.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
I'm thinking about the very first devil may cry, or
the first resident evil on theps1.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, the original halo is it possible for halo,
published directly by microsoftwith the launch of the xbox
console, okay, bungie, right.
Like, is that?
Were they ever indie?
I don't know.
(40:21):
I think that this is a littlebit up to our own definitions
too.
I don't think this is a reallabel.
I think it's just a way toseparate expectations for game
audiences and say like, oh, thisone should have this because it
cost a lot of money to make andhad full corporate backing by a
(40:41):
major corporation and had fullcorporate backing by a major
corporation.
And then this one, we canexpect different style of
graphics, different style ofvoice work, different style of
game involvement for the gameplayer to experience it, because
it was made by a smaller studio, a smaller budget, a smaller
(41:02):
period of time.
Well, maybe not in HollowKnight's case, because that game
took a long time too.
Yeah, but is Hollow Knight aAAA game or is it still an indie
game?
Like, I'm sure, the first one,you could argue for its indie
status, but it's got such anaudience now Everyone's talking
(41:26):
about it, but they stillreleased it.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
They haven't, but it's releasing for $20.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
That might just be because of the price point, that
the amount they spent on it andtheir estimate of how it can
become profitable.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
I'm going to ask Google what the best indie games
of all time are, and ouranswers are Hades, celeste,
hollow Knight, dardu Valley,cuphead, journey, cuphead, the
Binding of Isaac Ori and theWill of the Wisp.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Hey, Doritos is playing that Bellatro.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Undertale.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Bellatro's a card game.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
It was nominated for Game of the Year last year and
many people bought it onmultiple consoles because it was
affordable and people wereaddicted to it and wanted to be
able to play it on everythingthey owned yeah, well, it was
one of the best.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
It was like number one on the steam deck for a
whole year yeah, because it runswell on the Steam Deck Disco
Elysium Spirit Farer.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Oh, I love that one.
That was one of my favoriteparts of my book to write about
Tunic Mm-hmm.
Fez Papers Please.
Sifu Shovel Knight Fall GuysGone Home.
Papers please, seafood shovel.
Night fall.
Guys gone home fall guys, huh,that's what they said fall guys
(43:17):
was fun oh, would we say, amongus is an indie game.
Yeah yeah binding of Isaac.
Did I say that earlier?
Speaker 3 (43:26):
I'm surprised Minecraft hadn't been on the
list yet.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Minecraft isn't an indie game.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
It's not on.
Oh Outlast.
Look at that Horror beingrepresented.
Love that.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Subnautica.
Yes, that game's creepy.
I watched somebody play thatgame Outlast.
It made it because the game islike the scariest game you'll
ever play.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
That sounds fun wait, you've never played outlast I
have it in my backlog on steam,and october is happening soon
though but if you're gonna playit, I think you need to play it
in complete pitch black in youroffice well, I am in pitch black
with all my purple and bluelights you gotta turn everything
off and I can't stream in thedark yes, you can, though.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
That's the whole point of the horror, your screen
, your face, is the only thinglit up and to get the full
effect.
So when it scares the bejesusout of you, you're fucking.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Marcus, you might see me in the light right now, but
I have the darkness inside of me.
I'm always in there.
I do not fear the dark side asyou do.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
I just rolled my eyes so hard I have brought peace,
justice, security to my newempire.
Oh my God, I can't believe youjust did that.
So maybe three weeks ago or so,I was at work and I was talking
to Doc because I don't knowthat's what we do and we were
(45:03):
talking about books and audiobooks and all this, and he goes
oh my fate.
And I said what I don't knowhow it came up, but he said his
one of his favorite books is, uh, revenge of the sith, an audio
book, because it like portrayedwho he is kind of sort of with
anakin.
And I was like I didn't evenknow they had an.
(45:25):
I didn't even know they had anovelization for Revenge of the
Sith, let alone an audio version, so I downloaded it.
I'm going to tell you right nowif you do audiobooks, do
yourself a favor and listen to,to Revenge of the Sith.
It has to be the darkestversion of Star Wars ever
(45:50):
written, because you feel thepain of Anakin Skywalker through
the whole movie and you reallyfeel bad for Mace Windu.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
No.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
No.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
No, you will fail.
Oh sorry, did that?
My phone fell off my monitor?
Yeah, because it was reallyconvincing.
So, yep, I'm glad you enjoyed it, because I'm serious the poetry
for each section of that bookbecause there's section
transitions with poetry aboutthe balance between light and
(46:27):
dark and what it's reflected inthe character of Anakin and how
Anakin is a metaphor for thebalance in the galaxy because
he's the chosen one, those poemshave meant everything to me
since 2005.
They seriously are what I useto reflect on how I fit into the
(46:48):
things happening in the worldor the things that I hope to
have an impact on.
They're just beautiful andthey're tragic and heartbreaking
and they still give you hopebecause you know, the whole
point of Revenge of the Sith isthat it leads you into a new
hope, right Like that.
That truly is the entire reason, for the story is doom and
(47:09):
gloom and devastation in thedark winds, but it still ends
with the twin sunset and andLuke and Leia.
Right and sorry, spoilers forRevenge of the Sith, but you
know, go watch the movie.
What even were we talking about?
We had the Revenge of the Sith,but go watch the movie.
What even were we talking about?
We had Revenge of the Sith, wehad Journey.
(47:29):
Oh, favorite, most influentialindie game.
I read that big list.
I didn't read all 100 games inthe list, but the ones that I've
heard of and I know we'vementioned before on the history
of the show.
Anything pop out to either ofyou from the games I just threw
out there, blurted my god myfavorite from ign.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
I mean, journey is always a good one.
I've never played it.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
You can always say mass effect, marcus it's not an
indie game I'm kidding of courseit's not.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
I mean I've got, uh, I've wrapped up, or in the blind
forest, I mean that's stillreally good.
So that whole honestlyfranchise.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Mine is Norman's Night in the Cave.
Norman, yeah, so we met Iremember that.
Nick and I went to PAX East itwas our first year with media
badges we met the developers forthis game called Norman's Night
in the Cave and it's aMetroidvania kind of and it's a
(48:32):
slingshot mechanic where youlike bounce off stuff.
You can't like actually jump.
Everything is like spring, likeslingshot, it's about angles
and geometry and stuff.
And we met them.
Nick Irofino was the dev and hecame on the podcast a bunch of
times and we helped promote thegame and I had so much fun
(48:55):
playing that game because Iplayed it on my phone but you
could get it.
You can get it on steam as well, but it was so much fun to be
able to play that.
You know, in random times, ohshit, I've got five or six
minutes to waste because I'mwaiting for my kid to be ready
or gymnastics to be over orsomething and you could play
(49:17):
this game and it was so much funand it's like $3.99.
Let's see if it's still on here.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I don't know if games get removed from Steam.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
They can, but if you've bought them, you still
get to own them.
Norman's Night In.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Yep, you can still get it.
I have a question for both ofyou.
Is going back to 1980 andplaying Super Mario Brothers an
indie game, or was Nintendo bigenough even back then?
Speaker 3 (49:58):
they were big enough back then.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
So that's a triple A game too like did any yeah, like
did triple A gaming exist inthe 1980s?
Like could I say, final fantasyone is my favorite indie game I
don't think that was an indiegame it was the final fantasy
before they go bankrupt andtheir studio dies.
(50:22):
But it hit and it propelledSquare Enix into what it is now.
I would argue that is an indiegame that just launched a crazy
successful franchise.
I mean, that's my point withlike we started out small with
God of War, like obviously Godof War is a AAA game for the PS2
(50:44):
, right.
But my argument is games with avery good vision and great
execution are what allow thesestudios to become AAA studios.
But that first hit was not AAA.
It just has the reputation oflaunching the AAA for that group
(51:04):
of people.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
And as you ponder that, continue the journey.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com