January 23, 2025 • 63 mins
This episode explores the impact of 'The Legend of Zelda' on personal identity and societal themes such as courage, wisdom, and power, represented by the Triforce. The hosts delve into character evolution, psychological connections, and the franchise's cultural significance while also discussing gameplay experiences and the importance of representation in gaming.
• Exploration of personal gaming histories and their significance
• Discussion on the psychological impact of character roles in Zelda
• Analysis of the Triforce and its representation of life's challenges
• Conversation about Zelda's evolution into a strong character
• Examining how gameplay mechanics foster personal identity
• Reflection on video games as modern mythology and their lessons
Jump into our community discussions and share your favorite Legend of Zelda moments! Let us know how these games impacted your journey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to the gaming persona podcast.
This is the show that exploreswho we become when we play games
.
Your rightful announcer andintroducer, me, dr Gameology,
welcomes you to the show, andI'm joined by one of my best
friends from gaming, marcus V814.
Actually, marcus, we need toset the record straight here.
(00:35):
Do I just call you Marcus?
Do you just call me Doc, or amI Dr Gamology?
Or am I Daniel, or are youMarcus V814?
What's our naming conventionfor the show?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
now, I'm always Marcus, Um, but my handle is
always Marcus B814 and you areforever doc, Like it would be
like uh calling doc Dr EmmettBrown from back to the future.
Dr Emmett, can I talk to you?
It's always doc, it will alwaysbe Doc it would be Dr Brown.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
It would be Dr Brown.
Yes, we don't go Dr First Namehardly ever, unless that's a
thing the person wants.
Okay, so we are here to talkwith you about who we become
when we play games, and this isthe strangest intro that we've
ever done, because last week mybrain was broken irreversibly
(01:29):
and I don't remember how theintro goes anymore because of it
.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Well, I think last week's episode it was flawless.
I think I brought the energy, Iexplained to everybody what we
did and it threw everybody for aloop.
Because when somebody clickedon the new show to listen and
they were like, oh, the intromusic's going, they're starting
to flow with the music, they'refeeling it, and then all of a
sudden, bam, they get my voiceand they were like whoa, what
just happened?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, Okay.
So how are you doing this week?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Marcus, so I have the flu.
It sucks, but I'm on the mend.
I basically have had a 102 to103 fever all week and I played
minimal video games, but I'm onthe mend, so I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
How are you that sick and bedridden and play less
video games than in your normallife?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
routine, Because when I'm sick like I never get sick,
so when I get sick I get reallysick and the last thing I want
to do is stare at a screen andhave to concentrate on anything.
But I did play this week twogames in the process, but I'll
tell you about it after.
I kind of found a secret thingand I didn't even realize it was
(02:46):
a thing until I stumbled uponit.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Okay, that sounds mysterious.
I was able to play some videogames this week.
I played final fantasy 14, likeusual, and I don't think I see
seven.
Rebirth was my stream game thismorning and I think earlier in
the week, and making reallygreat progress on the story
there.
I have downloaded the legendsof Zelda tears of the kingdom in
(03:15):
hopes of preparing fortonight's episode, but it just
didn't get fully downloaded ontomy switch in time for the
episode.
So we're going to have to relyon the other Zelda games that I
have played, and I love almostall of the ones that I've played
.
So I'm still really excited tocover our personal histories
(03:36):
with Zelda and what thatfranchise means to gamers, and
that's going to be a reallygreat talk that I've been
excited about.
Where can our listeners find us?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Well, you can find me on the YouTube at Marcus B814.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
And I am on Twitch, youtube and all the social media
apps as Dr Gameology and youcan, of course, read all of my
neat ideas about how video gameshave become the modern
mythology in the Gamer's Journey, and you can buy a copy of that
on any bookseller online,including Amazon.
(04:13):
So I really hope you do that.
It's going to tie into thisshow and probably all of our
episodes in a big way.
Actually, that's going to be aneat road of trials discussion
for later.
A big way.
Actually, that's going to be aneat road of trials discussion
for later.
Marcus is just my realizationof where this show is at in
terms of preparing for any topicof these major tentpole
(04:36):
franchises for Nintendo,microsoft and Sony.
So are you ready to get intoour topic for today?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
let's do it okay.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So when we were getting ready to do this episode
, at the end of our finalfantasy talk, you asked me what
are we going to talk about next?
And you said that I caught youoff guard and I've been curious
all week.
What kind of answer did youthink I was going to give?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I did not think zelda , zelda and you, like I know
you've played them, but likezelda and you, for me, don't
mesh I shouldn't say mesh, likeI know you've played them, but
it's not.
It was just the last game Ithought you would have picked,
or or franchise to talk about.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
It just threw me off guard the legend of zelda
ocarina of time, though, becamea part of my life when I was 11
or 12, and that game was thefirst one where I started to
understand that video gamesfollow a story structure that is
(05:46):
very similar to movies and thatthey have heroes that are
similar to my favorite.
Heroes like Link and LukeSkywalker have some parallels
and, as a you know, barely over10 years old, the kinds of
thoughts that you need to haveif you're going to become a late
(06:07):
30s person who writes a booklike the Gamer's Journey started
to happen.
You know, does that make sense?
That's a pretty abstract way ofsaying it.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, it's just thinking about like Ocarina of
Time, as you're 11 and 12playing that.
I can remember dying to thebushes in the legend of Zelda
the original for the NES becauseI wasn't fast enough with the
sword and I was a little kid.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Oh, I definitely did play the legend of Zelda two on
the NES One day when I was sick,I think my parents rented it
from the gas station slash placewhere you rent games and movies
.
You know small town stuff, no,no, it was literally a gas
station, marcus Smallest townyou can possibly imagine in
(06:55):
Illinois.
And I remember it was superhard and I didn't even
understand how to play it.
It felt like I can walk to theother room, I can enter the
store, I can attack one enemysuccessfully and then the next
set of two enemies I die, and Ijust I couldn't figure out how
to play it really.
So I guess that was my firstmemory with Zelda.
(07:17):
But my first positive memorywith Zelda would have been
Ocarina of Time would have beenocarina of time.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Sure, I I can understand that, but zelda
represents so much more thanjust the game for me.
You know he's always.
It always starts off the samekind of like final fantasy when
we talked about it last week.
You start off and you eitherhave all the power and then you
something bad happens and youwake up with nothing and you
have a wooden sword or, like inBreath of the Wild, you have a
stick or a carrot and you haveto build up all of that stuff
(07:56):
all over again.
So it's just basically, I'mgoing to say, the hero's journey
.
So it always starts off thesame way, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So it always starts off the same way.
Yeah, you wake up with prettymuch no knowledge of what is
going on in the world in termsof good and evil.
You're just a kid and you goplaces in your village, you
discover some items, you learnhow to manipulate your
environment and move thingsaround and open up new pathways.
(08:26):
And Zelda is a really goodeducational experience too.
It explains how we learn.
Is here's a new thing, try touse it.
Oh, you used it this way and itdid something.
Maybe you should keep doing itthat way.
And then the challengeescalates.
And then the boss battle uses amixture of movements that you
(08:48):
have learned on the way to thatboss battle.
And then you're successful.
You get a new item how are yougoing to use it?
And so on and so forth, untilyou're capable of saving the
world.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, I don't get to save the world often I don't
think any of us do.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
That's why video games are a powerful imaginative
tool.
That's right.
So this might be if we just gostraight to the point, talk
about it and say you're welcome,welcome everybody.
This could be a very shortepisode.
It really depends how much wewant to take on side quests.
(09:30):
Are we okay with the mastersword or do we go after the big
or on sword of this conversation?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Wait a minute, but you want to talk about who wins
throughout all the games isGanon.
So how about this?
Ganon wins all the time.
He forever wins because heknows that even when Zelda beats
him, he's going to still win.
He's going to come back andhe's going to put a, he's going
to do something to Zelda where Imean Link, where he doesn't
(09:57):
remember anything.
He's going to get to stealZelda and he's going to run
stuff for a while and thenLink's going to wake up.
So, really, truly, in the story, ganon has a huge role in it,
cause, yeah, he's the bad guy,but he always gets away and he
always gets to do it again.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
You know, on my most cynical days, marcus, what you
just described is the thingsthat I believe in, the things I
hope for mixing together in away, but I end up feeling like
it doesn't matter how hard I tryRight, because the Ganondorf is
always going to be the problem,how much success I have today,
(10:46):
that Ganondorf is going to besitting there just fine, ready
to torture me and remind me thateverything I did that seemed
successful was not.
That's correct, but I don'tthink human beings are meant to
be that cynical every single dayof their lives and there are
moments where we assemble anamazing story and we get to
(11:08):
experience the big moments inone push, and in those moments,
ganondorf is also not okay.
He has something he wants toand Link and Zelda continuously
force him to live in anexistence where he doesn't quite
have it.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Right, but he always survives.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Is survival the threshold for thriving, marcus
as a villain, as a living thing,as a villain?
Yeah, all right.
Well, we're doing fine.
We're both sitting in front ofmicrophones existing.
So as far as the ganondorf markof mastery, we've got it made.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yes, we sure do I would love to see, like one of
their, the next games, the nextI'm going to call it like the
breath of the wild tears, thekingdom style game.
I really want it to be voiceacted like a wait, wait.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
you just made my brain do something.
I'm so sorry I cut you off.
Breath of the wild tears of thekingdom.
If you had to name the nextZelda game right now, what would
it be?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
So hard I lost my powers and I'm coming back.
No, no, no.
The Legend of Zelda I'm awakeagain.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Okay, well, okay, I was thinking more along the
lines of breath and tears arethings that come out of your
face.
So now we're stuck with spit orsnot, all right.
And then wild and kingdom arelocations you find in fantasy
worlds.
So I'm gonna say something likeso I'm going to say something
(13:01):
like spit of the clouds, it'sjust a Zelda game that's all
about raining on you.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Make it rain.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah, I'm sorry, I cut you off for that nonsense.
What were you about to say?
I don't know, because I'm moreenlightening?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
No, it definitely wasn't.
It definitely wasn't.
I just think that the the next.
The nice part about Zelda isthey always innovate with their
games.
And you know, sure, breath ofthe Wild changed everything In
Tears of the Kingdom.
It was great, but it was almosttoo much.
So the next one will beinnovative again.
(13:40):
Too much, so the next one willbe innovative again.
I haven't got the.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So they put you mean that it's too much, so the next
one will be innovative.
Again, I haven't got the, sothey put you mean that it's too
much.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yes took everything that they did in a breath of the
wild and cranked it to 11.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
You know what I mean.
So, like now, they make youknow flying saucers and
levitation stuff and it's justeverything that they did.
A breath of the wild.
They magnified it by a hundredand it was almost too much.
I think I played six hours ofit and I was just like it's just
too much.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So, like you couldn't focus on specific things,
because it's just, uh, it's a,it's an adhd nightmare yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So like, oh, now you can levitate, like, make
yourself go invisible underneaththe rock to get to where you
need to go, and you're like waita minute.
All right, this is a little, oryou know what I'm saying Like,
in breath of the wild, you havethe magnet, or you had, you know
, people figured out how to, youknow, make them make wind and
(14:44):
stuff like that.
But then they got creative withthings where, in tears of the
kingdom, they actually havemotors for you to do stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
It was just, it's just everything that you could
do in breath of the wild times100 one of the things that
really made me struggle withbreath of the wild was the lack
of the traditional zelda weapons.
Um, the hylian shield.
I know it's in there somewhere,but you have to be so talented
(15:14):
to find it that by the time youfind it you don't really need it
, so it's more like a badge ofhonor than it is a useful tool.
There's no mirror shield,there's no hover boots, there's
no hook shot, and so the hookshot is the thing that I miss
the most, because I love thatitem.
It is one of the most iconicabilities that Link has, and for
(15:40):
it not to even make it in thegame just made the experience
feel weird to me Again, theywere being innovative.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah but do you always have to be innovative?
Well, I agree with you, justlike I don't like a mechanic
where your weapon breaks yeah,that was also very frustrating
I'm not a fan of that, and it's.
I understand why they did itjust to make it just adds one
(16:10):
more layer of complexity to thegame.
But I remember I was fightingone of those the beasts and I
was using my weapons and likethree of them broke and I was in
the middle of a fight.
The thing's almost dead and nowI don't have an extra weapon.
Right there and me switchingweapons, I died and I was just
(16:33):
like all right that that thatstakes yeah, there's something
about our psychology, you and me, the way we play games.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
I think, coming from an mmo space, you I at least
really want to be efficient.
I want to be efficient, I wantto keep getting stronger.
I don't want to go backwardsand use weaker items.
I want my gear level to keepgoing up.
Yep, and in Breath of the Wild,they seem to make a lot of
(17:06):
things how the game functionsand the mechanics to be
deliberately frustrating.
And I play a game every daythat's deliberately frustrating.
It is called life and so I wasgonna say elden ring.
Your weapons don't break inelden ring.
Nope, you don't freeze in eldenring.
(17:29):
Those are the, the top two, Imean.
So's a?
There's a research study fromback when I first started going
in the psychology of gamesdirection with my work, and it
talked about what you need in agame in order to be classified
as an MMO, and one of thosefeatures was physicality.
(17:53):
What that means is you areactually physically existing in
that virtual space, meaning ifyou fall from a tall height, you
will take damage as an example.
Fall damage for some reasonwe're all very familiar with and
we don't say this, ruined myescapist mentality that I fell
and I actually got hurt likeit's real life mentality that I
(18:15):
fell and I actually got hurtlike it's real life, but for
some reason being in 10 degreeweather and your health just
depleting every five seconds andwatching those hearts evaporate
because you didn't eat anyspice apples.
That really bothers me.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Well, the other thing I'm going to say too, with
Breath of the Wild versus otherswas you finish the the, you
come off the cliff, you get yourhang glider and you come off.
And now they show four pointson the map and they're like,
okay, go have fun.
And I was like, all right, I'mgonna go this way.
All of a sudden, I was in anarea where I couldn't even beat
(18:53):
one of like the regular what arethey called Hobokens?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I couldn't even beat one.
They were too strong and I waslike, okay, I got to go the
other way now, and that was.
You know, you walked in thewrong neighborhood, Marcus.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Exactly, and I get that.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
It's just the the.
I like open world, but I likeit to be guided a little bit.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, like make it impossible to go to the places
where you will instantly die,right, yes, yeah, where an elden
ring, they pretty much.
You're pretty much.
You only have really one areathat you can stumble your way
into and it is like, if there'sever a flashing light on the
screen, the ground turns red andeverything turns to like a
reddish, gray sky and you'relike all right, I don't know if
(19:42):
I'm supposed to be here, becauseclearly it's changed.
And that's when you're inLimgrave and you end up in Caled
.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Oh, that's yeah.
So that whole point about openworlds and letting you just walk
(20:12):
into places that you don'tbelong and you see what level
your enemies are on their healthbar above their head, you can
very easily decide I'm not goingto engage them.
I must find a way around thisarea to get to the other side,
and so you don't lose all thatprogress trying to walk through
that area.
But there's not a levelingsystem in Zelda, so I think that
(20:37):
there are little things where Ican see what they were aiming
for.
It's a beautiful game.
It's executed very well.
I'm blaming us and thepsychological things happening
in our heads for why we strugglewith some of these design
choices.
It's because other games taughtus what to expect and Zelda is
(20:57):
not trying to be those games.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
What is your favorite Legend of Zelda game Twilight?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Princess Interesting?
Yeah, I played.
Okay, marcus, any game that Iplayed in the 2005 to 2010 era
is happening at really importantmoments in my life.
That defined who I am todayFinishing college, getting
(21:27):
married, finishing my master'sbecoming a counselor that all
happened in that five-yearwindow.
A counselor that all happenedin that five-year window, and so
that's approximately the timein there.
I don't remember the exact year,but that's around when I played
Twilight Princess on my Wii andI loved the way Link was
(21:48):
characterized in that game.
I loved the way Zelda was.
I loved how Ganondorf shows up.
I loved Midna as a character.
I love the dueling modes ofbeing a wolf and being Link.
I thought all the classicweapons showed up in a cool way.
I mean, it just hit me at atime where it gave me all the
(22:11):
vibes that I remembered fromOcarina of Time, a little bit of
Majora's Mask, but Ocarina ofTime is my preferred and then so
, okay, ocarina of Time is myfavorite Zelda, but in terms of
the one I've played the most andthe one that I love the
gameplay of, it's TwilightPrincess, what about you.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Snes Link to the Past Ooh, that is a good one that I
spent hours and hours and hoursand I remember, when you like,
when you go into the past, yeah,I.
It took me months to figure itout because I was a little kid
and I couldn't figure out allthe things that I had to do
(22:52):
because you basically had to goback to the areas in the regular
world.
But you're in the oppositeworld, you're in the upside down
and you got to find everythingand do extra stuff and it's.
It was crazy for me, but it,that game defined zelda for me
(23:14):
still to this day.
I don't think they ever made aremake, did they?
They might have for the ds.
They made.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
They made a sequel on the 3ds, actually, and I had it
.
Yeah, I never finished itbecause I'm pretty sure I soft
locked my save or hard locked mysave, meaning I got link into a
place where there's no way out,but I ruined the way forward by
(23:40):
not doing something rightearlier, so I create a dead end
for myself Now.
That being said, sometimes I runinto a problem in terms of
navigating the map in games andeven if I'm staring right at the
solution, I don't see it.
My brain just does notunderstand that that's an option
(24:04):
.
It happened to me on my streamin Final Fantasy VII Rebirth.
I ran around the same hallwaysfor 30 minutes with Yuffie in
Chapter 8 of that game and mystream is watching.
I'm kind of apologizing to thembut getting really angry and
like oh god, we're wasting timeon my stream and I'm pretty sure
(24:24):
that could have happened in thelegend of zelda a link between
worlds might be the name of it.
Yes, yeah, I'm pretty sure Idid that to myself in one of the
early dungeons and instead ofstarting the game over and
getting back to that same spotand doing it better, I abandoned
it, because it's easy toabandon handheld games, I guess
(24:46):
I don't know no, it's just whenyou get frustrated.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I've been there.
I got super frustrated withelden ring and I shut it off and
I didn't turn it on until twoweeks ago.
Yeah, so I get it, but you sayno, the frustration with maps on
the same way.
You know, I was battlinglindell with the map because
lindell is very vertical but themap is very one-dimensional
(25:16):
because they can show that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Maps are just an X and a Y axis.
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
They don't care about Z but there is something to be
said for when you are playing itand you get that next upgrade
to the, to the next sword or tothe shield or the eventual you
know master sword when in, likeBreath of the Wild, it didn't
matter If you didn't have themaster sword.
You didn't need it.
(25:43):
There were so many otherweapons that you didn't need to
have the master sword.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
I thought having the master sword for those four
dungeons, because it has thelight energy that all the bosses
are weak to, I thought thatthat was actually a really
important item.
Wow.
So you know, zelda taught methe same thing about improving
(26:12):
items and I think that itstarted to create the D&D wizard
mentality, where my solutionfor everything is just throw a
fireball into the room Like it'sa big magic spell.
It does a lot of damage, itdestroys multiple enemies at
once, it solves a lot ofproblems but could create chaos,
right.
(26:32):
And I remember, in Ocarina ofTime, spending extra time trying
to find the really large fishso I could get the gold scale,
so I could dive an extra threeseconds before coming back up
for air, which is incrediblyuseful in the water temple in
(26:53):
the water temple.
And I also remember spending anextra 30 minutes to an hour
every playthrough, advancingthrough daytime and nighttime
with the song that changes thesun, so that the giant Goron
blacksmith in the GoronMountains could forge the big
Goron sword for me, because Iwanted the giant two handed
(27:16):
sword that can kill multipleenemies in one swing instead of
the master sword.
Always, like it just taught me,you want the biggest, baddest
weapon, and that mentality stilllives inside me today in terms
of the way I plan.
What activities will I spendtime on in this next video game?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
I only so the master, short of course I went after.
But I would, I've never beenlike, I've always been find the
weapon you like and just keep itand upgrade it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I, I'm very stick to theroutine kind of a player.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Okay, well, up until Breath of the Wild and Tears of
the Kingdom, I always kind oflooked at the Zelda games.
As you're not choosing yourweapons, you know you're going
to be doing sword and shield,because that's what Link does,
right does right.
That's really interesting thatyou got so much of a
psychological strategy foryourself out of how the weapons
(28:21):
work in the two newest games Ilove the boomerang, believe it
or not, in the in the youngergames like the boomerang was
awesome because I was at rangeand you could throw the
boomerang three times and killan enemy before he could even
get to you, then you could throwthe boomerang three times and
kill an enemy before he couldeven get to you.
Yeah yeah, in the 2d games, likelink to the past, yeah yeah,
that's really helpful.
(28:41):
So, gang Ray, for this talk.
I was thinking to myself whatare the things that a person
should know if they haven'tplayed a Zelda game, like, what
are the pieces of a Zelda gamethat when someone talks to you
about Zelda, these are thethings you should know so that
(29:03):
you can understand what they'retalking about.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Oh boy, an epic journey to withstand the test of
time, to save the world.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Hmm, like in Majora's mask where it says you have
like a certain number of daysand then the what is it?
The moon crashes into the earth, right?
That game was just created toteach us about trauma and
anxiety disorders, I'm prettysure, yeah, lots of mental
health professionals talk aboutmajora's mask with a reverence
(29:49):
that I don't have towards thatgame.
I liked ocarina of time betterand they came out in a way that
made.
I mean, majora's mask is asequel, it seems, to ocarina of
time.
It is yeah, so I just I playedit.
I played it once, got all themasks so that I could have the
(30:12):
special mask that gives you aprojectile ray of energy that
comes out of the Master Sword,and then beat up the final boss
and then went back to Ocarina ofTime.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So I think also, it's really important to talk about
the triforce and the charactersthat are represented in the
triforce, marcus, because thisis the the central point of why
the games exist is well, this isthe first time we're bringing
(30:53):
up the Triforce, and that'sshocking.
Yeah, 31 minutes into theepisode, right, yeah, so this is
(31:16):
where video games become.
Mythology is.
The Triforce, is an energysource that's created by the
goddesses Din, nehru and Faror,and they use this energy to
create the world.
That is Hyrule and it's atriangle, that is a series of
three triangles with an emptytriangle in the middle, and it
gets broken apart and thatcreates a disruption in the flow
of energy.
It creates an imperfectexistence, and this is something
(31:38):
that we should be familiar withif we're scholars in areas like
philosophy and religion.
Is the imperfect creation right?
You're created by a perfectenergy source that is corrupted
by the fact that humans areimperfect, and then all of us
exist in a journey to try toreclaim that perfection, and
(32:00):
then we use that to describe thelife cycle, from birth to
living to death and thengeneration to generation, and it
turns out that Link goes onthis journey to save the world
from Ganondorf and help Zelda.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
It's always.
I've never heard it explainedthat way before about the
Triforce I always thought theTriforce is what gave Zelda her
power, which then gave it toLink.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Well, yes, the flow of energy usually is Zelda has
it from the get-go Link, gets itby finding it or earning it or
realizing he had it all along.
You know, whatever version ofthe hero's journey they give
Link for that particular gameinstallment.
Also, link is not the same Linkevery time he gets to Link
(32:59):
around Hyrule, it's true?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Ganondorfis the only one that is the
same person every time, that'swhy he's living the best life.
Where he never quite has what hewishes he had.
It's actually how mostreligions would explain hell,
(33:21):
marcus, not paradise.
You think so, though it's likepurgatory.
He's imagining that he could bethe dominant force in all of
existence, but he never quitegets there.
He just knows he's not going toget killed when the fight
starts yeah so that explains theTriforce.
(33:47):
We've mentioned the threecentral figures, but I want to
make it very clear.
The three members of theTriforce are link Green elf boy
goes hi.
Yeah, zelda, she representswisdom and usually is a princess
(34:08):
of the kingdom, but sometimeshas warrior tendencies.
Now, I mean, she got added toSmash Brothers and now she gets
more and more badass every timeshe gets put in a game.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
There's a game where you actually play as Zelda now.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, it's Echoes of Wisdom.
Echoes of Wisdom, yep, it is inthe style of Link's Awakening,
which also I played.
That one, I thought it wasamazing.
I played the original and Iplayed the Switch remake and I
thought both were great.
You collect magical musicalinstruments to hatch an egg that
(34:44):
is somehow tied to whetherexistence is good or evil.
So also childlike imagination,which also is found in a lot of
ancient mythological stories, isa giant egg with all of the
energy for good and evil in theearth.
Right, it doesn't make anysense when you think about how
(35:05):
the actual world works foradults, but in the mind of a
child that can be powerfulimagery that has deep meaning.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm thinking about it.
Like I told you, my brain isworking a little slow this week.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yeah, you have some malware in your brain, marcus
yeah, for sure I'm all thoseunofficial nintendo websites
you're going to oh, to find outabout the switch too yeah, and
how.
Now you can go to officialwebsites to find out of those.
You won't get malware anymoreyeah and now.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
And realizing that the connectors are awful.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
No, they're great.
Marcus, do you have a iPhone?
Yeah, do you have a case thathas the MagSafe circle on it?
Yeah, okay, I have a littlering that allows me to use it as
a stand.
Okay, listen to this, it'sbeautiful.
It's not going anywhere.
(36:08):
Now I can pull it, I mean,unless I apply force like it's.
Listen again, no, I get it.
That's going to be our Switch2s.
This is brilliance.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
I just have a bad feeling about it.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Well, if it doesn't work, then you just go buy
another joy con, which is thesame situation we're currently
in with the stick drift orwhatever they as your stick ever
drifted many times like man theif people are not gamers and
(36:45):
they're listening to us for likeprofessional reasons, we
probably should explain that sothey don't think we're creeps.
So the Nintendo Switch has aproblem where, if you play it
too much, the stick will getstuck pointing to the side when
it's not physically pointing tothe side, which means your
character will constantly driftin a direction instead of
(37:08):
standing still, which is a majorproblem if you're playing a lot
of video games, because youneed to be able to stand still
and control what direction yourun.
So Marcus and I made a littlebit of an adult humor joke
because it's kind of silly thatNintendo could not make
dependable Joy-Con controllersfor the switch one.
(37:30):
But it is a known problem andbecause of that, a lot of people
who play the switch a lot justbuy Joy-Cons every once in a
while, which is the name of thecontroller for the switch.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Wow, so my stick does drift sometimes.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Thank you, marcus, for acknowledging what all of us
knew already.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
So, moving on into the switch 2, I'll be curious to
see if there's a zelda game.
I don't think it's going tocome out at launch, but there's
going to be one not far behindwith the new console.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I could even see them remastering Tears of the
Kingdom or Breath of the Wild orboth.
Yeah, maybe combo, pack them,but have them have some
graphical upgrades so they getinto that PS4 graphic category
that the Switch 2 is talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yeah, I'm excited for it.
Once you can pre-order it, I'llpre-order it.
But I have found a newfoundlove for my Switch late in the
game.
Believe it or not, my kids havetheir own Switch and they have
the regular ones.
I have a Switch Lite and I loveit.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Oh yeah, I had a Switch Lite as well.
I loved it.
There was one thing about it Ididn't love which caused me to
trade it in and get a regularSwitch, and that is you cannot
connect it to a capture card,meaning I cannot stream these
games.
So if it was just abouthandheld gaming, yeah, switch
(39:12):
light is a magnificent device.
It's, it's light.
It's not as clunky as holding asteam deck.
Um, it doesn't overheat like asteam deck, because switch games
are not requiring that muchpower like a Steam Deck game
would.
Oh, marcus, this is not relatedto Zelda, but can I tell you
(39:32):
what the handheld gaming newsthat I'm actually most excited
about from today is?
It actually stole the Switch 2Thunder from my soul.
Final Fantasy VII Rebirth thecrown jewel of graphics for my
PS5.
Like that's a personalstatement, I'm not saying it's
(39:53):
the best graphics of the PS5,but for me it is.
It is Steam Deck verified fornext week.
Somehow they got this gorgeousPS5 game to be Steam Deck
verified before launch.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, you know that's the hardest part too with Final
Fantasy VII Remake and Rebirth.
If you can be patient and waitfor it to come out on the PC,
you're better off, because it'sa way better version of the game
than the PlayStation version,because you're getting all the
graphical upgrades.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, that's very true, but I'll just have both.
That's part of being me.
So back to Zelda, the threecentral characters of the
Triforce.
These are people living on theEarth fighting for the fate of
existence, and the Triforceattaches itself to their
(40:55):
existence, right?
So they represent one-third ofthis powerful energy that
allowed for existence to becreated.
And Link represents courage,zelda represents wisdom and
Ganondorf represents poweritself.
(41:16):
Okay, and it's always two onone.
There has not been a momentwhere Link chair, shot Zelda and
joins Ganondorf.
This is not the shield, youknow they are.
It's always Link and Zeldaversus Ganondorf, and the
(41:36):
earlier games had Zelda be thedamsel kind of character, but
she has become more empoweredand capable, even if, as the
player, you are controlling link, and they do need you to show
up at the end and bring all theforces of good together.
Uh, and, and so zelda may stillneed captured, but it's done in
(41:59):
a way that doesn't make herseem damsel in distress well,
and it's a show of the times,because right now, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Years ago it wasn't like this.
And now I don't want to saywomen are empowered.
I don't know if that's theright way to say it.
It's just women are you know,women are strong voices, or I'm
trying to think of the right wayto say it in making zelda
strong, wherein the originallegend of zelda, she was just a
weak princess that got captured,like princess peach.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
You know what I mean peach also has been empowered in
recent years she's the mostbadass character in the mario
movie.
That's correct.
Yeah, and actually I wasthinking about when did zelda
switch this script?
And I don't know if it happenedbefore this, but they started
to switch this around for younggirls across the world in
(42:53):
Ocarina of Time because Zeldagets abducted as a child in that
game in the child timeline.
But when you go into the adulttimeline, because Link gets put
into stasis in the Temple ofTime and awakens as an adult, he
(43:14):
encounters this character namedSheik, and Sheik is acrobatic,
ninja-like, assassin-typemoveset, and actually is Zelda.
Set and actually is Zelda.
(43:34):
So even back in the mid 90s,Nintendo was giving us the
opportunity to see a strongfemale character who has a
purpose and will show off somebadassery in order to accomplish
that goal.
I think it's great.
Yeah, In fact that kind oftakes cues from Princess Leia,
right, Like she's stuck in acell in A New Hope, but as soon
(43:55):
as they let her out of the cell,she starts giving orders and
showing that I've got poise inthis situation.
I'm going to do anything tosolve this problem and get off
this death star.
And and the the guys in thegroup are like who did we just
rescue?
You know like it's.
It's a really neat dynamic.
So I'm pointing this outbecause these fandom experiences
(44:19):
do teach us a lot about notjust what we are, but what we
could be, and that's whyrepresentation and inclusion is
important.
That's why paying attention tohow you characterize the
different people in your storybased on gender, based on skin
tone, based on ethnicity, basedon other features is so
(44:43):
important, because you mighthave a person playing who sees
themselves in a part of yourgame and you're teaching them
what their limits are and whattheir ceiling could be.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
I think that, as the time goes on, there's so many
different options where, in somany games, you can create a
character and you can make ityour character, whatever you
want it to be.
You can create a character andyou can make it your character,
whatever you want it to be,whereas Zelda, the Zelda games,
you're basically hey, princessZelda is getting captured, link,
you're going to save the day.
These are your characters.
(45:16):
You know there's no customizing, that.
You get the NPCs who you talkto throughout your journey and
those are the ones that make adifference in the gameplay.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
There is some customization in the two newer
games in the sense that you canchoose your outfits and go after
different set pieces that aregoing to give Link different
abilities, that make some thingspossible that were impossible
before.
When I'm watching a video onYouTube of someone who played
(45:51):
Breath of the Wild 300 hours andthen compare it to me played
like 30 hours to beat the gameRight, their Link looks like
something that I did not evenknow was possible in the game
just because of the outfit.
Like my link looks like theclassic link, like he looks like
the character yeah.
You just select him in supersmash brothers he's got like the
(46:15):
teal tunic he's got yeah, he'sjust so boring.
And then you see these otherpeople.
They found these items and theygot some extra stealth or extra
speed or like double the timewith zooming in arrow mode, and
I'm just like they are doingthings that are like neo in the
(46:36):
matrix compared to me, andthey're so talented, and so that
kind of experimentation withhow Link looks and what he's
capable of as a result that'show customization occurs, not in
character creation, but in whattasks are you willing to do to
(46:58):
make your Link better?
So, marcus, when I wascollecting research about what
we have found in psychologyabout the legend of zelda, there
were some articles and thesispublications that were very
interesting to me, and one ofthem was from brown 2012.
(47:26):
It was a master's thesis aboutAbraham Maslow's hierarchy of
needs and how people who playthe Legend of Zelda are able to
see themselves in the context ofachieving these levels of need
fulfillment.
And I love Maslow's hierarchyof needs.
Have you gotten to the part inthe Gamer's Journey where I show
(47:48):
off the pyramid with thedifferent levels of needs?
What chapter that game playershave?
Chapter one, oh, come on.
Actually, I have a question foryou.
How does the audible version dothe pictures?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Well, they explain it .
It's harder to like they it's.
They basically just explainwhat's there, but they don't.
It's not the same.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
It's, it's there, it is OK.
So there's five levels of needs, and the top one is what we
call self-actualization, whichis this is the perfect balance
of understanding yourself andthat your needs are met and
you're content being yourself.
Basically, you're the bestversion of who you are, and so,
(48:39):
basically, playing the Legend ofZelda builds in this awareness
of self purpose and how we canget to being what we were meant
to be, that people who have notplayed Legend of Zelda can get
in different ways but maybe notunderstand.
Also, maslow's Hierarchy ofNeeds is a triangle and the
(49:03):
Triforce is a triangle, so it'slike a match made in heaven kind
of.
I've always felt that, andthat's why that pyramid is in my
book so early.
But you want to know whyMaslow's Hierarchy of Needs is
taught by people who play theLegend of Zelda?
Marcus, tell me this thesis andanother article from 2022
(49:30):
that's about active imaginationand playing the Legend of Zelda.
Which imagination is big inTears of the Kingdom, for sure,
but also the ability to solvethe puzzles in the dungeons.
Yep, you have to have animagination to rotate those
items, to figure out how theyfit into the puzzle.
That's the truth, okay, and thereason that we can learn how to
(49:54):
become accepting of ourselvesand more fulfilled by playing
Zelda is because both of thesearticles, published 10 years
apart, talk about how the legendof Zelda is modern mythology.
Talk about how the Legend ofZelda is modern mythology.
So when I was doing theresearch for this episode first
(50:17):
article I find Maslow'sHierarchy of Needs, also in
chapter one of my book saysLegend of Zelda is modern
mythology.
Second article activeimagination is important for
children, which I said last weekwhen I was ranting about
society and sounding a littlebit tinfoil hat.
Okay, but also, why isimagination important in playing
(50:40):
video games?
Because video games are modernmythology.
They inspire imagination.
They inspire us to see apositive explanation of how we
fit into our existence, see apositive explanation of how we
fit into our existence modernmythology.
And then I'm thinking well, mybook was written without me ever
seeing these articles, becauseI've believed all games can be a
(51:01):
source of modern mythology ifwe believe in the lessons from
them, hard enough to apply themto our lives.
And I was just like, wow, thereare so many game players that
picked up on this feeling thatmy book is all about.
And it's nice to look up otherpeople's work and add them to
(51:25):
the show.
Aj Howe 2022 is the activeimagination piece, and then
Brown 2012 is a thesis onAbraham Maslow's theory of needs
and the legend of Zelda, but Iguess we're at the point if I
ever am too far behind to findmore research for the show.
(51:45):
We could have just gone withthe gamer's journey.
I feel like that's cliche,isn't it?
But they are saying the centralpoint of my book.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, but you got to understand.
Other people are going to beusing the gamer's journey 2024.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
Oh, that's so cool, marcus, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, so hopefully they will.
Of course they will, it takestime.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
But mythology gives us a sense of purpose and
belonging, and belonging is aneed that we have.
And purpose allows us to growand level up and keep fighting
when things are not easy.
And video games encourage us tokeep fighting when things are
not easy.
And video games encourage us tokeep fighting when things are
(52:34):
not easy.
And sometimes in life we put somuch of an emphasis depending
on who your parents are and whatyour school is like from early
childhood that you need tosucceed on the first try or else
you're just not good enough.
That's how I felt.
I felt like I did not get to bebad at things and then get
(52:54):
better over time.
Somehow the message that cameto me was you have to be great
immediately, because if you'renot great when we check on you,
then that means you were notpaying attention when we tried
to teach you which is wrong.
That is not the right, that'snot even true.
(53:16):
I know that now as an adult,but I didn't as a child, and
even knowing it doesn't meanthat I will live my life by it.
I still put the pressure on methat I learned in childhood, but
video games never put thatpressure on me.
They allowed me to getdestroyed by this fight a
hundred times in a row and whenyou're done being not good
(53:38):
enough, try the fight again.
Maybe you'll win.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
So, as we come back to the return and we go back to
our daily lives to take the nextstep forward, right, I just
want to make a big shout outreal quick.
Back to the return and we goback to our daily lives to take
the next step forward, right, Ijust want to make a big shout
out real quick.
Shout out to kitty kisses.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
Co-host to the utini cast podcast love utini cast my
first podcast um hi chill.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
So kitty kisses has achieved partner on twitch oh
man, let's go so he sent me thetext message earlier today.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Congratulations, buddy that's so great.
A lot of people in slow tourare doing amazing right now in
that regard.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Oh, really awesome, well, I mean, yeah, I see a few.
Well, I guess they did thattwitch drops and it really
worked and helped some of theirstreamers out which is great he
earned it man, he's been doingit.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Yeah, that's awesome.
It's important to be consistentand entertaining and get people
that like the vibe that you'reputting into the channel Right.
So, Marcus, what are some ofyour final thoughts from our
talk about Zelda that you thinkwill stay with you during the
week that we're about to have?
Our talk about the Triforce andyour Majora's Mask.
Speaker 2 (55:13):
Oh, we didn't really talk too much about Majora's
Mask.
You did because you weretalking about all the.
I didn't play Majora's Mask,but then you were talking.
When you spoke about all themasks, I went and did the Google
and I typed in all the masksand I was just interested in it
because I never played it.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
Yeah, masks are a big part of the Jungian concept of
personas personas and they allowus to shield ourselves from
reality but to broadcast out ourpreferred image for what we
hope people will interact with.
So instead of interacting withus, they interact with what the
(55:42):
mask is.
Actually, I just submitted myfirst draft of my Darth Vader
chapter for Psychology ofVillains.
Hopefully it gets accepted.
I'm not sure it's my best workyet, but I hope that I get a
chance to tweak it and make itbetter.
But of course, the Vader maskis an iconic mask and we know
Anakin Skywalker is just a burntup little boy who sat inside
(56:05):
that mask.
But the galaxy doesn't knowthat they are Vader.
They are terrified of LordVader, and so you know.
The Majora's Mask concept isanother mask, or a series of
masks from my childhood that Iremember.
Just they inspire mystery, likewhat does this mask do?
(56:26):
And also that game is on atimer right, like you have to
fit in everything you're gonnado for that dungeon in the set
of days, yep, or else the mooncrashes into the planet and you
die.
That is such a powerful problemfor a video game to put in your
(56:49):
face.
So, marcus, before we go.
I want to ask you something.
Sure, if you could have a pieceof the Triforce embedded on the
top of your hand and guide youthrough life, which one would it
be?
Speaker 2 (57:05):
I think I already have it and it's wisdom Okay.
A lot of my friends always askfor my advice and I, and I've
always, I always positive preachand bring that ultimate
positivity to people.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
So I would say wisdom for sure I had this
conversation with my ceo anddirector at KindBridge and I'm
the director of gaming servicesand I was talking about our
chemistry as a trio and how wecover the blind spots of each
other and we were trying atdinner to.
(57:46):
I talked to them about theTriforce and how it's a really
critical concept in the Legendof Zelda and Zelda is a major
franchise for video games andjust educating them about that
for some reason, while we wereeating dinner and try to figure
out, well, there's three of us,what part of the Triforce are we
?
So the CEO is power, right,that's easy.
(58:08):
And then I said you know, theclinical director I think would
be wisdom and that leaves mewith courage, but I'm not sure
if that is right or if we'reboth wisdom and you.
Picking wisdom kind of leads tothe same conversation here.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
And the clinical director said well, you could
just to interrupt you, I couldalso be courage, because I'm
always positive and givingpeople courage.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
The rules of the universe clearly state you
cannot have two pieces of theTriforce.
You're right, marcus.
Like in in real life, we arenot just one thing.
Ok, in terms of this question,though, we are, and what the
clinical director said to mewhen I was doubting whether I
was courage or not is she saidyou stand in front of mental
(59:00):
health professionals that thinkthey know what video games are,
and they think they know whataddiction is every day, and you
tell them you're wrong.
And here's why and I fullythought this through there's
really no argument with this andplease change the way you're
seeing this, because it willhelp people have a more positive
existence.
And she said to stand in frontof people who don't agree with
(59:25):
you and constantly be talkingabout why you see things the way
you do, that takes courage.
Constantly be talking about whyyou see things the way you do,
that takes courage.
And I just was like I wastouched because I don't.
I think I mentioned this in ourfirst episode together, marcus,
but I don't quite see myselfthat way.
But if other people do, thenlet's just keep doing what we're
(59:46):
doing.
Yeah Right, doing what we'redoing.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (59:58):
Also, that means, if we ever find a third person for
our podcast, they must representpower Unlimited power.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
All right.
So, Marcus, we did not discussour next topic before we pressed
record.
Oh, I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
So I'm ready for it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
So you want to be the person who decides it?
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
I will give that I have three choices and I want
you to pick one, two or three.
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Pick number one.
You just want me to pick anumber.
Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Yeah, because I have them in my head One, two and
three One.
Next week we're going to betalking about fighting games, oh
, not a specific one.
I like that.
That's very smart.
Well, the reason why is becauseso you have mortal combat,
fatality, blood, blood, blood.
Then you have street fighter,which has been around forever,
but then you have king offighters, and then what was that
other, like the dc one?
(01:00:47):
Ah, what was that called?
Injustice, injustice among us,yes you have that and then think
about all the other tekken.
I mean power rangers has oneyeah, and well, there was
another dead or alive remember.
Yeah, that's a fun one yeah,from back in the day.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Yeah, I think, though , man, that's hard because I
don't like where fighting gamesare at right now, but we can
talk about that next episode.
So I want to give another majorshout-out to KindBridge
Behavioral Health.
We're doing great things overthere.
If you are interested in doingcounseling and you want to do
(01:01:32):
telehealth, check outkindbridgecom and we will be
able to place you with atherapist or coach, and these
are counselors that are trainedby me to have a more positive,
pro-social view of things likevideo games, but also be able to
create a treatment plan that'spersonalized for you.
Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
If these conversations sound fun to you
and you're looking for somegreat people to play online
games with, check out AIE, go toaie-guildorg, jump in their
Discord and find one of the many, many games that they play,
because they are such a greatgaming community and everybody
is welcome on that topic.
Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Join our discord, jump into general or community
questions and talk to us aboutwhat some of your favorite
legend of zelda games andmemories are.
I would love to hear from youand build more conversations
around the triforce, personas,maslow's hierarchy of needs and
(01:02:33):
so on and so forth.
And how did we end up nottalking about persona as our
next topic after that?
Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
I've never played persona mask.
Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
That's why Okay, well , someday we're going to tackle
persona.
I have one last quest foreveryone to collect for the day
Go after your purpose and get itin there before the moon
crashes into your planet, andcontinue the journey later
(01:03:04):
Everyone, thank you.
Welcome to the gaming persona podcast.
This is the show that exploreswho we become when we play games
.
Your rightful announcer andintroducer, me, dr Gameology,
welcomes you to the show, andI'm joined by one of my best
friends from gaming, marcus V814.
Actually, marcus, we need toset the record straight here.
(00:35):
Do I just call you Marcus?
Do you just call me Doc, or amI Dr Gamology?
Or am I Daniel, or are youMarcus V814?
What's our naming conventionfor the show?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
now, I'm always Marcus, Um, but my handle is
always Marcus B814 and you areforever doc, Like it would be
like uh calling doc Dr EmmettBrown from back to the future.
Dr Emmett, can I talk to you?
It's always doc, it will alwaysbe Doc it would be Dr Brown.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
It would be Dr Brown.
Yes, we don't go Dr First Namehardly ever, unless that's a
thing the person wants.
Okay, so we are here to talkwith you about who we become
when we play games, and this isthe strangest intro that we've
ever done, because last week mybrain was broken irreversibly
(01:29):
and I don't remember how theintro goes anymore because of it
.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Well, I think last week's episode it was flawless.
I think I brought the energy, Iexplained to everybody what we
did and it threw everybody for aloop.
Because when somebody clickedon the new show to listen and
they were like, oh, the intromusic's going, they're starting
to flow with the music, they'refeeling it, and then all of a
sudden, bam, they get my voiceand they were like whoa, what
just happened?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, Okay.
So how are you doing this week?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Marcus, so I have the flu.
It sucks, but I'm on the mend.
I basically have had a 102 to103 fever all week and I played
minimal video games, but I'm onthe mend, so I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
How are you that sick and bedridden and play less
video games than in your normallife?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
routine, Because when I'm sick like I never get sick,
so when I get sick I get reallysick and the last thing I want
to do is stare at a screen andhave to concentrate on anything.
But I did play this week twogames in the process, but I'll
tell you about it after.
I kind of found a secret thingand I didn't even realize it was
(02:46):
a thing until I stumbled uponit.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Okay, that sounds mysterious.
I was able to play some videogames this week.
I played final fantasy 14, likeusual, and I don't think I see
seven.
Rebirth was my stream game thismorning and I think earlier in
the week, and making reallygreat progress on the story
there.
I have downloaded the legendsof Zelda tears of the kingdom in
(03:15):
hopes of preparing fortonight's episode, but it just
didn't get fully downloaded ontomy switch in time for the
episode.
So we're going to have to relyon the other Zelda games that I
have played, and I love almostall of the ones that I've played
.
So I'm still really excited tocover our personal histories
(03:36):
with Zelda and what thatfranchise means to gamers, and
that's going to be a reallygreat talk that I've been
excited about.
Where can our listeners find us?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Well, you can find me on the YouTube at Marcus B814.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
And I am on Twitch, youtube and all the social media
apps as Dr Gameology and youcan, of course, read all of my
neat ideas about how video gameshave become the modern
mythology in the Gamer's Journey, and you can buy a copy of that
on any bookseller online,including Amazon.
(04:13):
So I really hope you do that.
It's going to tie into thisshow and probably all of our
episodes in a big way.
Actually, that's going to be aneat road of trials discussion
for later.
A big way.
Actually, that's going to be aneat road of trials discussion
for later.
Marcus is just my realizationof where this show is at in
terms of preparing for any topicof these major tentpole
(04:36):
franchises for Nintendo,microsoft and Sony.
So are you ready to get intoour topic for today?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
let's do it okay.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So when we were getting ready to do this episode
, at the end of our finalfantasy talk, you asked me what
are we going to talk about next?
And you said that I caught youoff guard and I've been curious
all week.
What kind of answer did youthink I was going to give?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I did not think zelda , zelda and you, like I know
you've played them, but likezelda and you, for me, don't
mesh I shouldn't say mesh, likeI know you've played them, but
it's not.
It was just the last game Ithought you would have picked,
or or franchise to talk about.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
It just threw me off guard the legend of zelda
ocarina of time, though, becamea part of my life when I was 11
or 12, and that game was thefirst one where I started to
understand that video gamesfollow a story structure that is
(05:46):
very similar to movies and thatthey have heroes that are
similar to my favorite.
Heroes like Link and LukeSkywalker have some parallels
and, as a you know, barely over10 years old, the kinds of
thoughts that you need to haveif you're going to become a late
(06:07):
30s person who writes a booklike the Gamer's Journey started
to happen.
You know, does that make sense?
That's a pretty abstract way ofsaying it.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, it's just thinking about like Ocarina of
Time, as you're 11 and 12playing that.
I can remember dying to thebushes in the legend of Zelda
the original for the NES becauseI wasn't fast enough with the
sword and I was a little kid.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Oh, I definitely did play the legend of Zelda two on
the NES One day when I was sick,I think my parents rented it
from the gas station slash placewhere you rent games and movies
.
You know small town stuff, no,no, it was literally a gas
station, marcus Smallest townyou can possibly imagine in
(06:55):
Illinois.
And I remember it was superhard and I didn't even
understand how to play it.
It felt like I can walk to theother room, I can enter the
store, I can attack one enemysuccessfully and then the next
set of two enemies I die, and Ijust I couldn't figure out how
to play it really.
So I guess that was my firstmemory with Zelda.
(07:17):
But my first positive memorywith Zelda would have been
Ocarina of Time would have beenocarina of time.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Sure, I I can understand that, but zelda
represents so much more thanjust the game for me.
You know he's always.
It always starts off the samekind of like final fantasy when
we talked about it last week.
You start off and you eitherhave all the power and then you
something bad happens and youwake up with nothing and you
have a wooden sword or, like inBreath of the Wild, you have a
stick or a carrot and you haveto build up all of that stuff
(07:56):
all over again.
So it's just basically, I'mgoing to say, the hero's journey
.
So it always starts off thesame way, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So it always starts off the same way.
Yeah, you wake up with prettymuch no knowledge of what is
going on in the world in termsof good and evil.
You're just a kid and you goplaces in your village, you
discover some items, you learnhow to manipulate your
environment and move thingsaround and open up new pathways.
(08:26):
And Zelda is a really goodeducational experience too.
It explains how we learn.
Is here's a new thing, try touse it.
Oh, you used it this way and itdid something.
Maybe you should keep doing itthat way.
And then the challengeescalates.
And then the boss battle uses amixture of movements that you
(08:48):
have learned on the way to thatboss battle.
And then you're successful.
You get a new item how are yougoing to use it?
And so on and so forth, untilyou're capable of saving the
world.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, I don't get to save the world often I don't
think any of us do.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
That's why video games are a powerful imaginative
tool.
That's right.
So this might be if we just gostraight to the point, talk
about it and say you're welcome,welcome everybody.
This could be a very shortepisode.
It really depends how much wewant to take on side quests.
(09:30):
Are we okay with the mastersword or do we go after the big
or on sword of this conversation?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Wait a minute, but you want to talk about who wins
throughout all the games isGanon.
So how about this?
Ganon wins all the time.
He forever wins because heknows that even when Zelda beats
him, he's going to still win.
He's going to come back andhe's going to put a, he's going
to do something to Zelda where Imean Link, where he doesn't
(09:57):
remember anything.
He's going to get to stealZelda and he's going to run
stuff for a while and thenLink's going to wake up.
So, really, truly, in the story, ganon has a huge role in it,
cause, yeah, he's the bad guy,but he always gets away and he
always gets to do it again.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
You know, on my most cynical days, marcus, what you
just described is the thingsthat I believe in, the things I
hope for mixing together in away, but I end up feeling like
it doesn't matter how hard I tryRight, because the Ganondorf is
always going to be the problem,how much success I have today,
(10:46):
that Ganondorf is going to besitting there just fine, ready
to torture me and remind me thateverything I did that seemed
successful was not.
That's correct, but I don'tthink human beings are meant to
be that cynical every single dayof their lives and there are
moments where we assemble anamazing story and we get to
(11:08):
experience the big moments inone push, and in those moments,
ganondorf is also not okay.
He has something he wants toand Link and Zelda continuously
force him to live in anexistence where he doesn't quite
have it.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Right, but he always survives.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Is survival the threshold for thriving, marcus
as a villain, as a living thing,as a villain?
Yeah, all right.
Well, we're doing fine.
We're both sitting in front ofmicrophones existing.
So as far as the ganondorf markof mastery, we've got it made.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yes, we sure do I would love to see, like one of
their, the next games, the nextI'm going to call it like the
breath of the wild tears, thekingdom style game.
I really want it to be voiceacted like a wait, wait.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
you just made my brain do something.
I'm so sorry I cut you off.
Breath of the wild tears of thekingdom.
If you had to name the nextZelda game right now, what would
it be?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
So hard I lost my powers and I'm coming back.
No, no, no.
The Legend of Zelda I'm awakeagain.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Okay, well, okay, I was thinking more along the
lines of breath and tears arethings that come out of your
face.
So now we're stuck with spit orsnot, all right.
And then wild and kingdom arelocations you find in fantasy
worlds.
So I'm gonna say something likeso I'm going to say something
(13:01):
like spit of the clouds, it'sjust a Zelda game that's all
about raining on you.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Make it rain.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah, I'm sorry, I cut you off for that nonsense.
What were you about to say?
I don't know, because I'm moreenlightening?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
No, it definitely wasn't.
It definitely wasn't.
I just think that the the next.
The nice part about Zelda isthey always innovate with their
games.
And you know, sure, breath ofthe Wild changed everything In
Tears of the Kingdom.
It was great, but it was almosttoo much.
So the next one will beinnovative again.
(13:40):
Too much, so the next one willbe innovative again.
I haven't got the.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So they put you mean that it's too much, so the next
one will be innovative.
Again, I haven't got the, sothey put you mean that it's too
much.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yes took everything that they did in a breath of the
wild and cranked it to 11.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
You know what I mean.
So, like now, they make youknow flying saucers and
levitation stuff and it's justeverything that they did.
A breath of the wild.
They magnified it by a hundredand it was almost too much.
I think I played six hours ofit and I was just like it's just
too much.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So, like you couldn't focus on specific things,
because it's just, uh, it's a,it's an adhd nightmare yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So like, oh, now you can levitate, like, make
yourself go invisible underneaththe rock to get to where you
need to go, and you're like waita minute.
All right, this is a little, oryou know what I'm saying Like,
in breath of the wild, you havethe magnet, or you had, you know
, people figured out how to, youknow, make them make wind and
(14:44):
stuff like that.
But then they got creative withthings where, in tears of the
kingdom, they actually havemotors for you to do stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
It was just, it's just everything that you could
do in breath of the wild times100 one of the things that
really made me struggle withbreath of the wild was the lack
of the traditional zelda weapons.
Um, the hylian shield.
I know it's in there somewhere,but you have to be so talented
(15:14):
to find it that by the time youfind it you don't really need it
, so it's more like a badge ofhonor than it is a useful tool.
There's no mirror shield,there's no hover boots, there's
no hook shot, and so the hookshot is the thing that I miss
the most, because I love thatitem.
It is one of the most iconicabilities that Link has, and for
(15:40):
it not to even make it in thegame just made the experience
feel weird to me Again, theywere being innovative.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah but do you always have to be innovative?
Well, I agree with you, justlike I don't like a mechanic
where your weapon breaks yeah,that was also very frustrating
I'm not a fan of that, and it's.
I understand why they did itjust to make it just adds one
(16:10):
more layer of complexity to thegame.
But I remember I was fightingone of those the beasts and I
was using my weapons and likethree of them broke and I was in
the middle of a fight.
The thing's almost dead and nowI don't have an extra weapon.
Right there and me switchingweapons, I died and I was just
(16:33):
like all right that that thatstakes yeah, there's something
about our psychology, you and me, the way we play games.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
I think, coming from an mmo space, you I at least
really want to be efficient.
I want to be efficient, I wantto keep getting stronger.
I don't want to go backwardsand use weaker items.
I want my gear level to keepgoing up.
Yep, and in Breath of the Wild,they seem to make a lot of
(17:06):
things how the game functionsand the mechanics to be
deliberately frustrating.
And I play a game every daythat's deliberately frustrating.
It is called life and so I wasgonna say elden ring.
Your weapons don't break inelden ring.
Nope, you don't freeze in eldenring.
(17:29):
Those are the, the top two, Imean.
So's a?
There's a research study fromback when I first started going
in the psychology of gamesdirection with my work, and it
talked about what you need in agame in order to be classified
as an MMO, and one of thosefeatures was physicality.
(17:53):
What that means is you areactually physically existing in
that virtual space, meaning ifyou fall from a tall height, you
will take damage as an example.
Fall damage for some reasonwe're all very familiar with and
we don't say this, ruined myescapist mentality that I fell
and I actually got hurt likeit's real life mentality that I
(18:15):
fell and I actually got hurtlike it's real life, but for
some reason being in 10 degreeweather and your health just
depleting every five seconds andwatching those hearts evaporate
because you didn't eat anyspice apples.
That really bothers me.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Well, the other thing I'm going to say too, with
Breath of the Wild versus otherswas you finish the the, you
come off the cliff, you get yourhang glider and you come off.
And now they show four pointson the map and they're like,
okay, go have fun.
And I was like, all right, I'mgonna go this way.
All of a sudden, I was in anarea where I couldn't even beat
(18:53):
one of like the regular what arethey called Hobokens?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I couldn't even beat one.
They were too strong and I waslike, okay, I got to go the
other way now, and that was.
You know, you walked in thewrong neighborhood, Marcus.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Exactly, and I get that.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
It's just the the.
I like open world, but I likeit to be guided a little bit.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, like make it impossible to go to the places
where you will instantly die,right, yes, yeah, where an elden
ring, they pretty much.
You're pretty much.
You only have really one areathat you can stumble your way
into and it is like, if there'sever a flashing light on the
screen, the ground turns red andeverything turns to like a
reddish, gray sky and you'relike all right, I don't know if
(19:42):
I'm supposed to be here, becauseclearly it's changed.
And that's when you're inLimgrave and you end up in Caled
.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Oh, that's yeah.
So that whole point about openworlds and letting you just walk
(20:12):
into places that you don'tbelong and you see what level
your enemies are on their healthbar above their head, you can
very easily decide I'm not goingto engage them.
I must find a way around thisarea to get to the other side,
and so you don't lose all thatprogress trying to walk through
that area.
But there's not a levelingsystem in Zelda, so I think that
(20:37):
there are little things where Ican see what they were aiming
for.
It's a beautiful game.
It's executed very well.
I'm blaming us and thepsychological things happening
in our heads for why we strugglewith some of these design
choices.
It's because other games taughtus what to expect and Zelda is
(20:57):
not trying to be those games.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
What is your favorite Legend of Zelda game Twilight?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Princess Interesting?
Yeah, I played.
Okay, marcus, any game that Iplayed in the 2005 to 2010 era
is happening at really importantmoments in my life.
That defined who I am todayFinishing college, getting
(21:27):
married, finishing my master'sbecoming a counselor that all
happened in that five-yearwindow.
A counselor that all happenedin that five-year window, and so
that's approximately the timein there.
I don't remember the exact year,but that's around when I played
Twilight Princess on my Wii andI loved the way Link was
(21:48):
characterized in that game.
I loved the way Zelda was.
I loved how Ganondorf shows up.
I loved Midna as a character.
I love the dueling modes ofbeing a wolf and being Link.
I thought all the classicweapons showed up in a cool way.
I mean, it just hit me at atime where it gave me all the
(22:11):
vibes that I remembered fromOcarina of Time, a little bit of
Majora's Mask, but Ocarina ofTime is my preferred and then so
, okay, ocarina of Time is myfavorite Zelda, but in terms of
the one I've played the most andthe one that I love the
gameplay of, it's TwilightPrincess, what about you.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Snes Link to the Past Ooh, that is a good one that I
spent hours and hours and hoursand I remember, when you like,
when you go into the past, yeah,I.
It took me months to figure itout because I was a little kid
and I couldn't figure out allthe things that I had to do
(22:52):
because you basically had to goback to the areas in the regular
world.
But you're in the oppositeworld, you're in the upside down
and you got to find everythingand do extra stuff and it's.
It was crazy for me, but it,that game defined zelda for me
(23:14):
still to this day.
I don't think they ever made aremake, did they?
They might have for the ds.
They made.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
They made a sequel on the 3ds, actually, and I had it
.
Yeah, I never finished itbecause I'm pretty sure I soft
locked my save or hard locked mysave, meaning I got link into a
place where there's no way out,but I ruined the way forward by
(23:40):
not doing something rightearlier, so I create a dead end
for myself Now.
That being said, sometimes I runinto a problem in terms of
navigating the map in games andeven if I'm staring right at the
solution, I don't see it.
My brain just does notunderstand that that's an option
(24:04):
.
It happened to me on my streamin Final Fantasy VII Rebirth.
I ran around the same hallwaysfor 30 minutes with Yuffie in
Chapter 8 of that game and mystream is watching.
I'm kind of apologizing to thembut getting really angry and
like oh god, we're wasting timeon my stream and I'm pretty sure
(24:24):
that could have happened in thelegend of zelda a link between
worlds might be the name of it.
Yes, yeah, I'm pretty sure Idid that to myself in one of the
early dungeons and instead ofstarting the game over and
getting back to that same spotand doing it better, I abandoned
it, because it's easy toabandon handheld games, I guess
(24:46):
I don't know no, it's just whenyou get frustrated.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I've been there.
I got super frustrated withelden ring and I shut it off and
I didn't turn it on until twoweeks ago.
Yeah, so I get it, but you sayno, the frustration with maps on
the same way.
You know, I was battlinglindell with the map because
lindell is very vertical but themap is very one-dimensional
(25:16):
because they can show that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Maps are just an X and a Y axis.
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
They don't care about Z but there is something to be
said for when you are playing itand you get that next upgrade
to the, to the next sword or tothe shield or the eventual you
know master sword when in, likeBreath of the Wild, it didn't
matter If you didn't have themaster sword.
You didn't need it.
(25:43):
There were so many otherweapons that you didn't need to
have the master sword.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
I thought having the master sword for those four
dungeons, because it has thelight energy that all the bosses
are weak to, I thought thatthat was actually a really
important item.
Wow.
So you know, zelda taught methe same thing about improving
(26:12):
items and I think that itstarted to create the D&D wizard
mentality, where my solutionfor everything is just throw a
fireball into the room Like it'sa big magic spell.
It does a lot of damage, itdestroys multiple enemies at
once, it solves a lot ofproblems but could create chaos,
right.
(26:32):
And I remember, in Ocarina ofTime, spending extra time trying
to find the really large fishso I could get the gold scale,
so I could dive an extra threeseconds before coming back up
for air, which is incrediblyuseful in the water temple in
(26:53):
the water temple.
And I also remember spending anextra 30 minutes to an hour
every playthrough, advancingthrough daytime and nighttime
with the song that changes thesun, so that the giant Goron
blacksmith in the GoronMountains could forge the big
Goron sword for me, because Iwanted the giant two handed
(27:16):
sword that can kill multipleenemies in one swing instead of
the master sword.
Always, like it just taught me,you want the biggest, baddest
weapon, and that mentality stilllives inside me today in terms
of the way I plan.
What activities will I spendtime on in this next video game?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
I only so the master, short of course I went after.
But I would, I've never beenlike, I've always been find the
weapon you like and just keep itand upgrade it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I, I'm very stick to theroutine kind of a player.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Okay, well, up until Breath of the Wild and Tears of
the Kingdom, I always kind oflooked at the Zelda games.
As you're not choosing yourweapons, you know you're going
to be doing sword and shield,because that's what Link does,
right does right.
That's really interesting thatyou got so much of a
psychological strategy foryourself out of how the weapons
(28:21):
work in the two newest games Ilove the boomerang, believe it
or not, in the in the youngergames like the boomerang was
awesome because I was at rangeand you could throw the
boomerang three times and killan enemy before he could even
get to you, then you could throwthe boomerang three times and
kill an enemy before he couldeven get to you.
Yeah yeah, in the 2d games, likelink to the past, yeah yeah,
that's really helpful.
(28:41):
So, gang Ray, for this talk.
I was thinking to myself whatare the things that a person
should know if they haven'tplayed a Zelda game, like, what
are the pieces of a Zelda gamethat when someone talks to you
about Zelda, these are thethings you should know so that
(29:03):
you can understand what they'retalking about.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Oh boy, an epic journey to withstand the test of
time, to save the world.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Hmm, like in Majora's mask where it says you have
like a certain number of daysand then the what is it?
The moon crashes into the earth, right?
That game was just created toteach us about trauma and
anxiety disorders, I'm prettysure, yeah, lots of mental
health professionals talk aboutmajora's mask with a reverence
(29:49):
that I don't have towards thatgame.
I liked ocarina of time betterand they came out in a way that
made.
I mean, majora's mask is asequel, it seems, to ocarina of
time.
It is yeah, so I just I playedit.
I played it once, got all themasks so that I could have the
(30:12):
special mask that gives you aprojectile ray of energy that
comes out of the Master Sword,and then beat up the final boss
and then went back to Ocarina ofTime.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So I think also, it's really important to talk about
the triforce and the charactersthat are represented in the
triforce, marcus, because thisis the the central point of why
the games exist is well, this isthe first time we're bringing
(30:53):
up the Triforce, and that'sshocking.
Yeah, 31 minutes into theepisode, right, yeah, so this is
(31:16):
where video games become.
Mythology is.
The Triforce, is an energysource that's created by the
goddesses Din, nehru and Faror,and they use this energy to
create the world.
That is Hyrule and it's atriangle, that is a series of
three triangles with an emptytriangle in the middle, and it
gets broken apart and thatcreates a disruption in the flow
of energy.
It creates an imperfectexistence, and this is something
(31:38):
that we should be familiar withif we're scholars in areas like
philosophy and religion.
Is the imperfect creation right?
You're created by a perfectenergy source that is corrupted
by the fact that humans areimperfect, and then all of us
exist in a journey to try toreclaim that perfection, and
(32:00):
then we use that to describe thelife cycle, from birth to
living to death and thengeneration to generation, and it
turns out that Link goes onthis journey to save the world
from Ganondorf and help Zelda.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
It's always.
I've never heard it explainedthat way before about the
Triforce I always thought theTriforce is what gave Zelda her
power, which then gave it toLink.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Well, yes, the flow of energy usually is Zelda has
it from the get-go Link, gets itby finding it or earning it or
realizing he had it all along.
You know, whatever version ofthe hero's journey they give
Link for that particular gameinstallment.
Also, link is not the same Linkevery time he gets to Link
(32:59):
around Hyrule, it's true?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Ganondorfis the only one that is the
same person every time, that'swhy he's living the best life.
Where he never quite has what hewishes he had.
It's actually how mostreligions would explain hell,
(33:21):
marcus, not paradise.
You think so, though it's likepurgatory.
He's imagining that he could bethe dominant force in all of
existence, but he never quitegets there.
He just knows he's not going toget killed when the fight
starts yeah so that explains theTriforce.
(33:47):
We've mentioned the threecentral figures, but I want to
make it very clear.
The three members of theTriforce are link Green elf boy
goes hi.
Yeah, zelda, she representswisdom and usually is a princess
(34:08):
of the kingdom, but sometimeshas warrior tendencies.
Now, I mean, she got added toSmash Brothers and now she gets
more and more badass every timeshe gets put in a game.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
There's a game where you actually play as Zelda now.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, it's Echoes of Wisdom.
Echoes of Wisdom, yep, it is inthe style of Link's Awakening,
which also I played.
That one, I thought it wasamazing.
I played the original and Iplayed the Switch remake and I
thought both were great.
You collect magical musicalinstruments to hatch an egg that
(34:44):
is somehow tied to whetherexistence is good or evil.
So also childlike imagination,which also is found in a lot of
ancient mythological stories, isa giant egg with all of the
energy for good and evil in theearth.
Right, it doesn't make anysense when you think about how
(35:05):
the actual world works foradults, but in the mind of a
child that can be powerfulimagery that has deep meaning.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm thinking about it.
Like I told you, my brain isworking a little slow this week.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yeah, you have some malware in your brain, marcus
yeah, for sure I'm all thoseunofficial nintendo websites
you're going to oh, to find outabout the switch too yeah, and
how.
Now you can go to officialwebsites to find out of those.
You won't get malware anymoreyeah and now.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
And realizing that the connectors are awful.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
No, they're great.
Marcus, do you have a iPhone?
Yeah, do you have a case thathas the MagSafe circle on it?
Yeah, okay, I have a littlering that allows me to use it as
a stand.
Okay, listen to this, it'sbeautiful.
It's not going anywhere.
(36:08):
Now I can pull it, I mean,unless I apply force like it's.
Listen again, no, I get it.
That's going to be our Switch2s.
This is brilliance.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
I just have a bad feeling about it.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Well, if it doesn't work, then you just go buy
another joy con, which is thesame situation we're currently
in with the stick drift orwhatever they as your stick ever
drifted many times like man theif people are not gamers and
(36:45):
they're listening to us for likeprofessional reasons, we
probably should explain that sothey don't think we're creeps.
So the Nintendo Switch has aproblem where, if you play it
too much, the stick will getstuck pointing to the side when
it's not physically pointing tothe side, which means your
character will constantly driftin a direction instead of
(37:08):
standing still, which is a majorproblem if you're playing a lot
of video games, because youneed to be able to stand still
and control what direction yourun.
So Marcus and I made a littlebit of an adult humor joke
because it's kind of silly thatNintendo could not make
dependable Joy-Con controllersfor the switch one.
(37:30):
But it is a known problem andbecause of that, a lot of people
who play the switch a lot justbuy Joy-Cons every once in a
while, which is the name of thecontroller for the switch.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Wow, so my stick does drift sometimes.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Thank you, marcus, for acknowledging what all of us
knew already.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
So, moving on into the switch 2, I'll be curious to
see if there's a zelda game.
I don't think it's going tocome out at launch, but there's
going to be one not far behindwith the new console.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I could even see them remastering Tears of the
Kingdom or Breath of the Wild orboth.
Yeah, maybe combo, pack them,but have them have some
graphical upgrades so they getinto that PS4 graphic category
that the Switch 2 is talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yeah, I'm excited for it.
Once you can pre-order it, I'llpre-order it.
But I have found a newfoundlove for my Switch late in the
game.
Believe it or not, my kids havetheir own Switch and they have
the regular ones.
I have a Switch Lite and I loveit.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Oh yeah, I had a Switch Lite as well.
I loved it.
There was one thing about it Ididn't love which caused me to
trade it in and get a regularSwitch, and that is you cannot
connect it to a capture card,meaning I cannot stream these
games.
So if it was just abouthandheld gaming, yeah, switch
(39:12):
light is a magnificent device.
It's, it's light.
It's not as clunky as holding asteam deck.
Um, it doesn't overheat like asteam deck, because switch games
are not requiring that muchpower like a Steam Deck game
would.
Oh, marcus, this is not relatedto Zelda, but can I tell you
(39:32):
what the handheld gaming newsthat I'm actually most excited
about from today is?
It actually stole the Switch 2Thunder from my soul.
Final Fantasy VII Rebirth thecrown jewel of graphics for my
PS5.
Like that's a personalstatement, I'm not saying it's
(39:53):
the best graphics of the PS5,but for me it is.
It is Steam Deck verified fornext week.
Somehow they got this gorgeousPS5 game to be Steam Deck
verified before launch.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, you know that's the hardest part too with Final
Fantasy VII Remake and Rebirth.
If you can be patient and waitfor it to come out on the PC,
you're better off, because it'sa way better version of the game
than the PlayStation version,because you're getting all the
graphical upgrades.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, that's very true, but I'll just have both.
That's part of being me.
So back to Zelda, the threecentral characters of the
Triforce.
These are people living on theEarth fighting for the fate of
existence, and the Triforceattaches itself to their
(40:55):
existence, right?
So they represent one-third ofthis powerful energy that
allowed for existence to becreated.
And Link represents courage,zelda represents wisdom and
Ganondorf represents poweritself.
(41:16):
Okay, and it's always two onone.
There has not been a momentwhere Link chair, shot Zelda and
joins Ganondorf.
This is not the shield, youknow they are.
It's always Link and Zeldaversus Ganondorf, and the
(41:36):
earlier games had Zelda be thedamsel kind of character, but
she has become more empoweredand capable, even if, as the
player, you are controlling link, and they do need you to show
up at the end and bring all theforces of good together.
Uh, and, and so zelda may stillneed captured, but it's done in
(41:59):
a way that doesn't make herseem damsel in distress well,
and it's a show of the times,because right now, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Years ago it wasn't like this.
And now I don't want to saywomen are empowered.
I don't know if that's theright way to say it.
It's just women are you know,women are strong voices, or I'm
trying to think of the right wayto say it in making zelda
strong, wherein the originallegend of zelda, she was just a
weak princess that got captured,like princess peach.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
You know what I mean peach also has been empowered in
recent years she's the mostbadass character in the mario
movie.
That's correct.
Yeah, and actually I wasthinking about when did zelda
switch this script?
And I don't know if it happenedbefore this, but they started
to switch this around for younggirls across the world in
(42:53):
Ocarina of Time because Zeldagets abducted as a child in that
game in the child timeline.
But when you go into the adulttimeline, because Link gets put
into stasis in the Temple ofTime and awakens as an adult, he
(43:14):
encounters this character namedSheik, and Sheik is acrobatic,
ninja-like, assassin-typemoveset, and actually is Zelda.
Set and actually is Zelda.
(43:34):
So even back in the mid 90s,Nintendo was giving us the
opportunity to see a strongfemale character who has a
purpose and will show off somebadassery in order to accomplish
that goal.
I think it's great.
Yeah, In fact that kind oftakes cues from Princess Leia,
right, Like she's stuck in acell in A New Hope, but as soon
(43:55):
as they let her out of the cell,she starts giving orders and
showing that I've got poise inthis situation.
I'm going to do anything tosolve this problem and get off
this death star.
And and the the guys in thegroup are like who did we just
rescue?
You know like it's.
It's a really neat dynamic.
So I'm pointing this outbecause these fandom experiences
(44:19):
do teach us a lot about notjust what we are, but what we
could be, and that's whyrepresentation and inclusion is
important.
That's why paying attention tohow you characterize the
different people in your storybased on gender, based on skin
tone, based on ethnicity, basedon other features is so
(44:43):
important, because you mighthave a person playing who sees
themselves in a part of yourgame and you're teaching them
what their limits are and whattheir ceiling could be.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
I think that, as the time goes on, there's so many
different options where, in somany games, you can create a
character and you can make ityour character, whatever you
want it to be.
You can create a character andyou can make it your character,
whatever you want it to be,whereas Zelda, the Zelda games,
you're basically hey, princessZelda is getting captured, link,
you're going to save the day.
These are your characters.
(45:16):
You know there's no customizing, that.
You get the NPCs who you talkto throughout your journey and
those are the ones that make adifference in the gameplay.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
There is some customization in the two newer
games in the sense that you canchoose your outfits and go after
different set pieces that aregoing to give Link different
abilities, that make some thingspossible that were impossible
before.
When I'm watching a video onYouTube of someone who played
(45:51):
Breath of the Wild 300 hours andthen compare it to me played
like 30 hours to beat the gameRight, their Link looks like
something that I did not evenknow was possible in the game
just because of the outfit.
Like my link looks like theclassic link, like he looks like
the character yeah.
You just select him in supersmash brothers he's got like the
(46:15):
teal tunic he's got yeah, he'sjust so boring.
And then you see these otherpeople.
They found these items and theygot some extra stealth or extra
speed or like double the timewith zooming in arrow mode, and
I'm just like they are doingthings that are like neo in the
(46:36):
matrix compared to me, andthey're so talented, and so that
kind of experimentation withhow Link looks and what he's
capable of as a result that'show customization occurs, not in
character creation, but in whattasks are you willing to do to
(46:58):
make your Link better?
So, marcus, when I wascollecting research about what
we have found in psychologyabout the legend of zelda, there
were some articles and thesispublications that were very
interesting to me, and one ofthem was from brown 2012.
(47:26):
It was a master's thesis aboutAbraham Maslow's hierarchy of
needs and how people who playthe Legend of Zelda are able to
see themselves in the context ofachieving these levels of need
fulfillment.
And I love Maslow's hierarchyof needs.
Have you gotten to the part inthe Gamer's Journey where I show
(47:48):
off the pyramid with thedifferent levels of needs?
What chapter that game playershave?
Chapter one, oh, come on.
Actually, I have a question foryou.
How does the audible version dothe pictures?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Well, they explain it .
It's harder to like they it's.
They basically just explainwhat's there, but they don't.
It's not the same.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
It's, it's there, it is OK.
So there's five levels of needs, and the top one is what we
call self-actualization, whichis this is the perfect balance
of understanding yourself andthat your needs are met and
you're content being yourself.
Basically, you're the bestversion of who you are, and so,
(48:39):
basically, playing the Legend ofZelda builds in this awareness
of self purpose and how we canget to being what we were meant
to be, that people who have notplayed Legend of Zelda can get
in different ways but maybe notunderstand.
Also, maslow's Hierarchy ofNeeds is a triangle and the
(49:03):
Triforce is a triangle, so it'slike a match made in heaven kind
of.
I've always felt that, andthat's why that pyramid is in my
book so early.
But you want to know whyMaslow's Hierarchy of Needs is
taught by people who play theLegend of Zelda?
Marcus, tell me this thesis andanother article from 2022
(49:30):
that's about active imaginationand playing the Legend of Zelda.
Which imagination is big inTears of the Kingdom, for sure,
but also the ability to solvethe puzzles in the dungeons.
Yep, you have to have animagination to rotate those
items, to figure out how theyfit into the puzzle.
That's the truth, okay, and thereason that we can learn how to
(49:54):
become accepting of ourselvesand more fulfilled by playing
Zelda is because both of thesearticles, published 10 years
apart, talk about how the legendof Zelda is modern mythology.
Talk about how the Legend ofZelda is modern mythology.
So when I was doing theresearch for this episode first
(50:17):
article I find Maslow'sHierarchy of Needs, also in
chapter one of my book saysLegend of Zelda is modern
mythology.
Second article activeimagination is important for
children, which I said last weekwhen I was ranting about
society and sounding a littlebit tinfoil hat.
Okay, but also, why isimagination important in playing
(50:40):
video games?
Because video games are modernmythology.
They inspire imagination.
They inspire us to see apositive explanation of how we
fit into our existence, see apositive explanation of how we
fit into our existence modernmythology.
And then I'm thinking well, mybook was written without me ever
seeing these articles, becauseI've believed all games can be a
(51:01):
source of modern mythology ifwe believe in the lessons from
them, hard enough to apply themto our lives.
And I was just like, wow, thereare so many game players that
picked up on this feeling thatmy book is all about.
And it's nice to look up otherpeople's work and add them to
(51:25):
the show.
Aj Howe 2022 is the activeimagination piece, and then
Brown 2012 is a thesis onAbraham Maslow's theory of needs
and the legend of Zelda, but Iguess we're at the point if I
ever am too far behind to findmore research for the show.
(51:45):
We could have just gone withthe gamer's journey.
I feel like that's cliche,isn't it?
But they are saying the centralpoint of my book.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, but you got to understand.
Other people are going to beusing the gamer's journey 2024.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
Oh, that's so cool, marcus, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, so hopefully they will.
Of course they will, it takestime.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
But mythology gives us a sense of purpose and
belonging, and belonging is aneed that we have.
And purpose allows us to growand level up and keep fighting
when things are not easy.
And video games encourage us tokeep fighting when things are
not easy.
And video games encourage us tokeep fighting when things are
(52:34):
not easy.
And sometimes in life we put somuch of an emphasis depending
on who your parents are and whatyour school is like from early
childhood that you need tosucceed on the first try or else
you're just not good enough.
That's how I felt.
I felt like I did not get to bebad at things and then get
(52:54):
better over time.
Somehow the message that cameto me was you have to be great
immediately, because if you'renot great when we check on you,
then that means you were notpaying attention when we tried
to teach you which is wrong.
That is not the right, that'snot even true.
(53:16):
I know that now as an adult,but I didn't as a child, and
even knowing it doesn't meanthat I will live my life by it.
I still put the pressure on methat I learned in childhood, but
video games never put thatpressure on me.
They allowed me to getdestroyed by this fight a
hundred times in a row and whenyou're done being not good
(53:38):
enough, try the fight again.
Maybe you'll win.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
So, as we come back to the return and we go back to
our daily lives to take the nextstep forward, right, I just
want to make a big shout outreal quick.
Back to the return and we goback to our daily lives to take
the next step forward, right, Ijust want to make a big shout
out real quick.
Shout out to kitty kisses.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
Co-host to the utini cast podcast love utini cast my
first podcast um hi chill.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
So kitty kisses has achieved partner on twitch oh
man, let's go so he sent me thetext message earlier today.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Congratulations, buddy that's so great.
A lot of people in slow tourare doing amazing right now in
that regard.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Oh, really awesome, well, I mean, yeah, I see a few.
Well, I guess they did thattwitch drops and it really
worked and helped some of theirstreamers out which is great he
earned it man, he's been doingit.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Yeah, that's awesome.
It's important to be consistentand entertaining and get people
that like the vibe that you'reputting into the channel Right.
So, Marcus, what are some ofyour final thoughts from our
talk about Zelda that you thinkwill stay with you during the
week that we're about to have?
Our talk about the Triforce andyour Majora's Mask.
Speaker 2 (55:13):
Oh, we didn't really talk too much about Majora's
Mask.
You did because you weretalking about all the.
I didn't play Majora's Mask,but then you were talking.
When you spoke about all themasks, I went and did the Google
and I typed in all the masksand I was just interested in it
because I never played it.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
Yeah, masks are a big part of the Jungian concept of
personas personas and they allowus to shield ourselves from
reality but to broadcast out ourpreferred image for what we
hope people will interact with.
So instead of interacting withus, they interact with what the
(55:42):
mask is.
Actually, I just submitted myfirst draft of my Darth Vader
chapter for Psychology ofVillains.
Hopefully it gets accepted.
I'm not sure it's my best workyet, but I hope that I get a
chance to tweak it and make itbetter.
But of course, the Vader maskis an iconic mask and we know
Anakin Skywalker is just a burntup little boy who sat inside
(56:05):
that mask.
But the galaxy doesn't knowthat they are Vader.
They are terrified of LordVader, and so you know.
The Majora's Mask concept isanother mask, or a series of
masks from my childhood that Iremember.
Just they inspire mystery, likewhat does this mask do?
(56:26):
And also that game is on atimer right, like you have to
fit in everything you're gonnado for that dungeon in the set
of days, yep, or else the mooncrashes into the planet and you
die.
That is such a powerful problemfor a video game to put in your
(56:49):
face.
So, marcus, before we go.
I want to ask you something.
Sure, if you could have a pieceof the Triforce embedded on the
top of your hand and guide youthrough life, which one would it
be?
Speaker 2 (57:05):
I think I already have it and it's wisdom Okay.
A lot of my friends always askfor my advice and I, and I've
always, I always positive preachand bring that ultimate
positivity to people.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
So I would say wisdom for sure I had this
conversation with my ceo anddirector at KindBridge and I'm
the director of gaming servicesand I was talking about our
chemistry as a trio and how wecover the blind spots of each
other and we were trying atdinner to.
(57:46):
I talked to them about theTriforce and how it's a really
critical concept in the Legendof Zelda and Zelda is a major
franchise for video games andjust educating them about that
for some reason, while we wereeating dinner and try to figure
out, well, there's three of us,what part of the Triforce are we
?
So the CEO is power, right,that's easy.
(58:08):
And then I said you know, theclinical director I think would
be wisdom and that leaves mewith courage, but I'm not sure
if that is right or if we'reboth wisdom and you.
Picking wisdom kind of leads tothe same conversation here.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
And the clinical director said well, you could
just to interrupt you, I couldalso be courage, because I'm
always positive and givingpeople courage.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
The rules of the universe clearly state you
cannot have two pieces of theTriforce.
You're right, marcus.
Like in in real life, we arenot just one thing.
Ok, in terms of this question,though, we are, and what the
clinical director said to mewhen I was doubting whether I
was courage or not is she saidyou stand in front of mental
(59:00):
health professionals that thinkthey know what video games are,
and they think they know whataddiction is every day, and you
tell them you're wrong.
And here's why and I fullythought this through there's
really no argument with this andplease change the way you're
seeing this, because it willhelp people have a more positive
existence.
And she said to stand in frontof people who don't agree with
(59:25):
you and constantly be talkingabout why you see things the way
you do, that takes courage.
Constantly be talking about whyyou see things the way you do,
that takes courage.
And I just was like I wastouched because I don't.
I think I mentioned this in ourfirst episode together, marcus,
but I don't quite see myselfthat way.
But if other people do, thenlet's just keep doing what we're
(59:46):
doing.
Yeah Right, doing what we'redoing.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (59:58):
Also, that means, if we ever find a third person for
our podcast, they must representpower Unlimited power.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
All right.
So, Marcus, we did not discussour next topic before we pressed
record.
Oh, I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
So I'm ready for it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
So you want to be the person who decides it?
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
I will give that I have three choices and I want
you to pick one, two or three.
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Pick number one.
You just want me to pick anumber.
Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Yeah, because I have them in my head One, two and
three One.
Next week we're going to betalking about fighting games, oh
, not a specific one.
I like that.
That's very smart.
Well, the reason why is becauseso you have mortal combat,
fatality, blood, blood, blood.
Then you have street fighter,which has been around forever,
but then you have king offighters, and then what was that
other, like the dc one?
(01:00:47):
Ah, what was that called?
Injustice, injustice among us,yes you have that and then think
about all the other tekken.
I mean power rangers has oneyeah, and well, there was
another dead or alive remember.
Yeah, that's a fun one yeah,from back in the day.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Yeah, I think, though , man, that's hard because I
don't like where fighting gamesare at right now, but we can
talk about that next episode.
So I want to give another majorshout-out to KindBridge
Behavioral Health.
We're doing great things overthere.
If you are interested in doingcounseling and you want to do
(01:01:32):
telehealth, check outkindbridgecom and we will be
able to place you with atherapist or coach, and these
are counselors that are trainedby me to have a more positive,
pro-social view of things likevideo games, but also be able to
create a treatment plan that'spersonalized for you.
Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
If these conversations sound fun to you
and you're looking for somegreat people to play online
games with, check out AIE, go toaie-guildorg, jump in their
Discord and find one of the many, many games that they play,
because they are such a greatgaming community and everybody
is welcome on that topic.
Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Join our discord, jump into general or community
questions and talk to us aboutwhat some of your favorite
legend of zelda games andmemories are.
I would love to hear from youand build more conversations
around the triforce, personas,maslow's hierarchy of needs and
(01:02:33):
so on and so forth.
And how did we end up nottalking about persona as our
next topic after that?
Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
I've never played persona mask.
Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
That's why Okay, well , someday we're going to tackle
persona.
I have one last quest foreveryone to collect for the day
Go after your purpose and get itin there before the moon
crashes into your planet, andcontinue the journey later
(01:03:04):
Everyone, thank you.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!