January 16, 2025 • 60 mins
Imagine facing a seemingly insurmountable gaming challenge, only to find victory through a fresh perspective. That's exactly what happened to MarcusB814 in our latest episode of the Gaming Persona Podcast, where he takes us on his triumphant journey back into Elden Ring. Meanwhile, Dr. Gameology finds himself engrossed in the mesmerizing worlds of Final Fantasy XVI and XIV, exploring their narratives and combat systems. We share our latest gaming escapades, ponder the potential launch of a video version on Patreon, and reflect on how these gaming experiences shape our journeys.
Join us as we explore the legacy and evolution of the iconic Final Fantasy series, from its roots on the Super Nintendo to its significant influence across generations of gaming. Marcus shares a personal story on how the series helped him improve his reading skills, showcasing the educational value of text-based games. We also delve into the psychological aspects of gaming, discussing how understanding these elements enhances effective communication and content creation. Through humor and camaraderie, we celebrate Final Fantasy's enduring impact on our lives as gamers and creators.
We then shift our focus to the powerful storytelling that defines the Final Fantasy series, considering the thematic elements and iconic villains that captivate players worldwide. Through thought-provoking discussions, we question common narratives around video game addiction and advocate for recognizing gaming's potential as a tool for creativity and emotional expression. As we wrap up, Marcus invites listeners to discover his gaming adventures on YouTube, while Dr. Gameology extends an invitation to join him on Twitch for live discussions, encouraging a mindset of embracing the gaming journey with determination and passion.
If you would like to support the show and help us unlock additional possibilities for future episodes and projects, this can now be done through Patreon!
You can watch us play games LIVE and join our communities to get more connection from every episode:
- DrGameology on Twitch - Continue the Journey LIVE in 2025!!
- MarcusB814 on YouTube - BOOMBA
Subscribe on YouTube for more content on the Psychology of Gaming or Follow on Twitch to catch the Live Streams!
For more info, check out DrGameology.com!
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Thanks for Listening, and Continue The Journey!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Welcome to the Gaming Persona Podcast.
This is the show that exploreswho we become when we play games
.
Today, this is MarcusB814, andI'm joined with by my co-host,
dr Gameology, the author of theGamer's Journey, the professor
from all over the country andthe most dynamic content creator
(00:36):
in all of the world.
How you doing, doc.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I feel like my show just got hijacked.
But not doing the work isintoxicatingicating, and now you
will be typecast.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah, about that, I'm just going with it, so perfect.
Anyways, how has your week beengoing?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Oh man, we're doing this all out of order.
It's been great.
I don't know how to answer thisquestion because I'm the one
who always asks it.
Does that make sense to anybody?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
It makes sense to me and that's why we're doing it.
Cause you so if everybody'slistening.
Doc has red cheeks right nowbecause I completely threw him
for a loop and I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, one of the things that is really
interesting that happened sincelast week when we recorded is
obviously we got the editingdone on the episode.
I uploaded it.
It was ready in time for peopleto listen on Thursday I'm not
sure Thursday's the target dateevery week moving forward.
I think I'd prefer it comingout earlier in the week, but we
(01:36):
got it Major success.
But there is a video versionand I have to figure out what to
do with it and I have Patreonsitting there and I was thinking
maybe I should give the videoversion to Patreon.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So if you're going to do that, I need to know that,
because A I want to look thepart and B like half the episode
.
I might have my finger buriedin my nose and nobody wants to
see that.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Especially if you're paying for it.
Exactly, nobody wants to seethat, especially if you're
paying for it Exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Nobody wants to see it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Either ways, I'm glad to hear you got the show on
track.
It's been a crazy week formyself, but this week I'm
excited.
I know you're excited becauselast week Doc threw me if you
were listening to the show.
Doc threw me under the bus andmade me pick a topic for this
week and we picked Final Fantasy.
So we're going to dive intothat.
But first, doc, what games haveyou played this week?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I have played this week Final fantasy seven rebirth
.
I have played final fantasy 14and that's it.
Those are the two games thatI've played.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Awesome.
Yeah, so I have rediscoveredElden Ring.
Nice, a friend of mine.
Yeah, so a friend of mine wasover for Monday Night Raw this
week because it was the bigNetflix debut, yep.
And so when that happenedafterwards, he asked, would ask
(03:04):
me he's, hey, have you playedelden ring?
And I said no and he goes.
So wait.
So you're still in lindell andyou haven't beaten the erd tree
avatar.
I was like nope, I've tried amillion times.
I think I'm just stressed out.
I had to walk away.
He's, let's go.
So I turned it on first try.
Oh my god, I'm sorry the showis just going down the train no,
(03:25):
this is amazing all right.
So doc just sat down.
He first put his one in the airfor the roman reigns, first
acknowledging him as his tribalchief but number two.
Then he went and got hisundisputed world heavyweight
championship belt.
That's awesome.
So back to the ur tree, soheaven.
(03:48):
So he was like just play it.
So I stood up, played it and Ibeat it first try and I was like
blown away.
I was like dude, I beat it andhe goes.
Dude, you probably were justburnt out of the game and you
needed to step away.
So since then I've played alittle bit more.
I've explored more of lindell,found some cool things and then
(04:08):
I shut it off because I'm reallyenjoying final fantasy 16 it's.
So I'm still in the hideout andI just came back from, like my
first mission.
Yeah, when you leave and comeback.
So I'm probably only three orfour hours in the game, but I'm
enjoying it because it's likeyou get game and then you get
(04:30):
cut scene and like the story isgood.
I haven't decided if I likethat much cut scene with it yet,
but I'm having a lot of fun andI wanted to make sure I played
more Final Fantasy before todaybecause I have a bunch of
opinions and then after the showI'm going to be playing Final
Fantasy before today because Ihave a bunch of opinions and
then after the show I'm going tobe playing Final Fantasy XIV
with Doc.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, final Fantasy XVI was made to specifically be
my ultimate game.
It's storytelling like Game ofThrones in terms of setting and
world and factions and betrayalsand trauma, but it's still
Final Fantasy.
(05:08):
There's crystals, there's magic, there's Final Fantasy.
16 is straight up the monomyth,which is the fancy term for the
hero's journey, and then thecombat system has all the Final
Fantasy tropes which we're goingto talk about.
What it is that makes a gameFinal Fantasy?
It has all that, but the wayyou execute it is devil may cry
(05:34):
and one of the things I thoughtabout a lot when I was writing
the Gamer's Journey.
Marcus is Dante and Virgil andNero make many appearances in
the gamer's journey.
Devil May Cry is a massivefranchise for Capcom.
It's not Street Fighter, it'snot Resident Evil, but it's an
important franchise For sure.
(05:56):
And I was questioning for abouthalfway through the book before
I really found myself and I waslike this is good, I am not
questioning myself anymore.
But the question was do peoplecare about these specific games
as much as I do?
Are they going to read twopages straight about Devil May
(06:18):
Cry in chapter two and tune outand be like that game lost me?
I'm not interested and thatmight happen to some people,
please don't, but the peoplethat have gotten deeper into the
book.
Feedback from people so far isthat it doesn't really matter
which games I'm using to them,because the ideas are connecting
(06:40):
it, even if it's a game theyhaven't played, which is what I
was hoping.
And there might be some peoplewho don't get that.
But so cool.
Devil may cry in final fantasyduring a story from game of
thrones yeah, you're right yeahyeah, I'm.
I was going to actually streamFinal Fantasy 16 this morning,
(07:04):
marcus, except it wasn'tinstalled on my PS5 for my
office and, like the hard drivefor PS5 Slim is not huge, coming
stock from factory right, Ijust don't have all the games I
would want.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So can I ask you a question?
Why don't you just buy them onSteam?
Why don't you just buy them onsteam?
You can stream steam.
You can steam link your gamesto your tv.
Just like a ps5.
You can use your playstation 5controller on a computer and
half the time the games arecheaper on the computer than
they are on the playstationstore that's a great question,
(07:40):
but I played final fantasy 16two years ago, so that's why I I
guess it was more of a blanketstatement that, like you, don't
have to buy it on theplaystation yeah, so it has to
do with setting up streamingsettings in obs and
Speaker 2 (08:00):
okay having to swap everything over and change which
windows show up as mybackgrounds, and also, if it's
running on the PS5, it is notrunning on my hard drive.
So all my hard drive has to dois put the picture that it's
receiving into OBS instead ofactually running the game.
Well, and in my head it feelslike a smart thing to do to just
(08:23):
let my computer focus on thestreaming part.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Sure yeah, I get it If you can laugh.
I completely messed upeverything in this show, which
is great.
Can you tell me, doc, whereeverybody can find you?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I absolutely can At the nine-minute mark.
You can find me at twitchtvslash drgamology.
You can also watch some of myYouTube videos where I go deeper
into breaking down thepsychology of gaming with
specific topics and specificgames.
That's at YouTube Alsodrgamology there, and you can
(09:00):
find this show on Apple Spotifyand also drgamologycom and you
can find this show on.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Apple, spotify and also drgamologycom.
You can find me on YouTube atMarcusB814.
I'm just getting back to thecontent creation roles.
If you could drop that sub,that'd be awesome, yeah, in my
world of growth.
So now, if you guys can picture, I'm getting a ball and I'm
passing it back to Doc to takeover Doc.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Oh yeah, I think that , since we're talking about
Final Fantasy and this is ourfirst real in-depth conversation
about Final Fantasy that ismeant to be shared with the
world I mean, I've been talkingwith Marcus about Final Fantasy
since years, like at least whenI started playing XIV, which
would have been the end of 2019.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Sure, that was a long time ago now wow, it was yeah,
but marcus is so much older nowthis is interesting, so the
entire history of the show.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I have been, just by an edge, the oldest person on
the show.
Marcus has seniority over me asfar as planet Earth is
concerned, and the cool thingabout that is I was just picking
his brain on the phone to getready for the episode 10 hours
ago and he reminded me, doc, Iplayed all the Super Nintendo
(10:25):
Final Fantasies.
I got this and you don't needto worry about what Final
Fantasy opinions I have.
I was like, okay, like I got towork on trusting people, marcus
, because in psychology we havethe stages of human development
and when we're first born we'recrying little poopy baby
(10:46):
machines, and that stage of am Igoing to live and am I going to
die is trust versus mistrust.
And I promise you, marcus, Imust have failed that stage
miserably, because I do not justtrust people easily.
I have to make sure I knowwhat's going to happen before it
happens.
Which brings me to my love ofEmperor Palpatine, in the
(11:10):
mastermind temperament typestyle that trailed off into an
exploded Death Star of Oblivion.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
And I loved every minute of it.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, so let's just start with our entry point into
Final Fantasy and we'll talkabout exactly why these games
mattered to us when we wereyounger, and my hope is that
will just flow into what FinalFantasy is now, just like how we
started talking about thisyears ago.
This franchise started manyyears ago now, about this years
(11:46):
ago.
This franchise started manyyears ago now and maybe we can
also go at least cover a littlebit of the console generations
for this game.
That's interesting, and thereason is in order to really get
a lot of what I'm talking about.
Always, whether you're a mentalhealth professional, a parent,
a gamer or a person who has agamer in their life, sometimes
it helps to understand the gamesthat I'm talking about, so that
(12:08):
the metaphors work for you.
I think, marcus, the reason youjust on the spot picked Final
Fantasy out of the hat isbecause that is probably the
number one game franchise.
To understand what the heck I'mtalking about when I make
content right, do you feel thatway?
No, no, what is then?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
I picked Final Fantasy.
Last week when you put me onthe spot and threw me under the
bus, it was a marshmallow bus,marcus.
Yeah, of course I didn't say itwas squished.
I didn't say it was the bigyellow bus, it was like the
State Puff Marshmallow man bus.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
It wasn't the short bus either.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
No, I didn't say that because I know I at least have
a helmet on.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
But anyway, I can't hear me out okay, you broke me,
you broke character, like sayingthat I'm not oosy enough or
something.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
No dude like you're not oosy enough.
Listen man, you're not incharacter, you're just doc, like
you're not dr gamology.
That Listen man, you're not incharacter, you're just Doc, like
you're not Dr Gameology.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
That's right, you're just Doc.
I'm the undisputed Doc.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Undisputed Doc champion.
No, so the reason.
So you put me on the spot.
A I'm playing.
I started playing Final Fantasy16.
B we're playing Final Fantasy14.
I bought some time game time solike I'm playing it, so and I.
The first Final Fantasy Iplayed was Final Fantasy.
Hold on 4 on the Super Nintendo.
(13:37):
Yeah, in 91.
And I don't remember how old Iwas, but I was never a good
reader as a kid and so I hatedreading books, hated it.
And I went to my doctor one daywith my primary care and my mom
was telling her that I hatedbooks and she suggested that
(14:00):
have you ever read comic books?
And I said no, and my mom tookme to the comic book store and
then she said to me do you playtext-based video games?
I said what's a text-basedvideo game?
And she said Final Fantasy.
And I said what's Final Fantasy?
And she's oh my God, it's.
You basically have to read yourway through the game.
The only way to beat the gameand to beat it is to play
(14:21):
strategy, but also read all thetext, because you don't know
what attacks you're doing.
You don't know anything becausethere's no icons, everything is
just text base.
And I said, okay, that laterthat year my mom got me final
fantasy 4 and I don't know ifit's actually final fantasy 4 in
japan.
It was weird how they likechanged the numbers.
I don't know the actual numbercomparisons but isn't like Final
(14:46):
Fantasy four, like FinalFantasy six in Japan?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Okay, I am not sure the exact numbers here.
I might make a mistake here andif that happens just call me on
social media and correct me.
I want the true information andthat's for our listeners,
obviously.
But I believe Final Fantasy Iin America is Final Fantasy I.
I think Final Fantasy II inAmerica was actually Final
(15:13):
Fantasy IV.
I think Final Fantasy III inAmerica was actually Final
Fantasy VI, and then that meansthat for American audiences they
skipped over the Japanese FinalFantasy 2 and 3 and 5.
But eventually they got to thepoint where they released all of
(15:34):
them on probably the PS1.
And that is when the numbersgot reshuffled and Final Fantasy
3 in America switched to beingcalled six and to switch to
being called four.
So that way releasing two andthree was matching with Japan,
matching five was matching withJapan.
(15:56):
And the reason for thoserelease changes is because those
ones that got hopped over forAmerican audiences have really
hardcore role paint, roleplaying game structures in them
that are not always fun and youcan still enjoy the games, but
(16:17):
you have to be mentally ready todo some things that are very
complex in order to get the mostout.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, but that was my journey beginning of Final
Fantasy.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Okay, Now they go ahead.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
No, no, I was going to say, but I recently saw that
like the switch has, like theCollection which is 1, 2, 3, 4,
5, and 6.
Pixel Remaster yeah, but it's$80.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, because every single game is completely
rebuilt and amazing andbeautiful.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
So there it is.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah.
Answer answered they'refantastic versions of the games
and you can always tag them onSteam with your wishlist and
then buy them when they're onsale Super smart way to do it,
right?
I want to talk about the originof the name Final Fantasy,
because I think that belongs inthis episode and it's something
(17:19):
I want our audience to know.
Moving forward too, because wemight allude to it in future
episodes, and if you'relistening to this one, it's just
going to make sense from thismoment forward.
But Final Fantasy came out inthe 80s and I believe it was for
the Nintendo EntertainmentSystem and the name was
(17:40):
originally conceptualized asmaybe being called fighting
fantasy or some kind of other ff.
They couldn't do that becauseof trademark concerns with a
some kind of a game style booklike a ttrpg maybe or some kind
of gaming adjacent book thatalready existed.
And then also there were a lotof struggles in the company, for
(18:05):
I believe it was called squaresoft back then, and so if this
game had not been successful,the company would have closed
and everyone would have goneseparate ways in their career,
and so, trying to figure outanother FF naming convention,
they're like we're not going todo fighting, maybe we should
(18:25):
just do final.
This is the final fantasy we'regoing to make because we're
going to release it.
Some people play it, it's goingto fail and then we're going to
move on with our lives.
This is the end of the company.
Had a good run, good attempt, goteam, and it hit so hard.
It brought all of the amazingttrpg role-playing games
(18:48):
leveling up, getting experience,magic and classes, turn-based
style warfare, but without dice,which really simplifies it all.
The rng is under the surface,you don't see how the critical
hits and the misses are decided,but it's still there.
The dice are still there, youjust don't see them.
And, in my opinion, finalFantasy and a few other games.
(19:11):
I'm not going to pretend thatFinal Fantasy is the only game
that caused this, but we talkedabout hybridization last week
and how so many other genres nowhave role playing game elements
in them, because it doessomething to the process of
actively playing the game.
That is a positive experiencefor game players and the first
(19:31):
Final Fantasy was a heavycontributor to video games
working the way they do today.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
You're right, you think back at the games that
changed the industry, and FinalFantasy definitely is.
I did not know where FinalFantasy's name came from and how
that all came to be, so Ilearned something there.
But you think back forever.
Generations of players, right,you think of like the
20-somethings playing the nesplayed final fantasy they do the
(20:04):
20-something, something nowyeah, but to the 20-somethings
just starting to play finalfantasy.
With final fantasy 16, you'retalking about multiple
generations of people beinginvolved in final fantasy.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
So every Final Fantasy is in a different
fantasy world, at least if thenumber changes.
Right, these are not sequels.
Like you watch a Star Warsmovie and Luke Skywalker and Han
Solo and Leia, princess Leiaand then you come in for the
next one it's Empire StrikesBack.
And who do you see?
Luke Skywalker, han Solo andPrincess Leia and come back for
(20:41):
empire strikes back.
And who do you see?
Luke skywalker, han solo andprincess leia, and come back for
another one.
And who do you see?
Ewoks and luke skywalker, hansolo and princess leia?
Right?
but then you come back one moretime and it's ray yes, that is
true and everyone that'slistening is going to remember.
That is true, and we're goingto reel that back in and get
(21:02):
back to Final Fantasy.
Final Fantasy, you play one,you become the Warriors of Light
and you pick what is it?
Four of them and that's yourbattle team for the whole game.
And then you play Final Fantasy2, and you are not the same
squad at all and it's not eventhe same political disaster.
(21:24):
It's not the same monster andit's not the same threat to the
planet.
You're right, right.
And so one of the things I thinkabout all the time when I'm
talking to non-gaming typepeople is they ask me what are
you working on?
I'll say I have a researchproject actually brewing.
It's about ready to go throughIRB, it's going to be my next
(21:46):
research data project and it'son Final Fantasy 14.
Okay, and then they ask okay,what are you streaming on Twitch
?
I'm playing Final Fantasy 7Rebirth.
And for these people and it'sokay to not be a gamer, you're
probably not listening to thispodcast if you're not in some
way curious about what it's liketo be a gamer, but I can just
(22:09):
imagine listening to someonetalk on and on about how they
level up all these classes inFinal Fantasy XIV and then they
stream Final Fantasy VII Rebirthand you're wondering why are?
Why are you playing 14 and 7?
They're so far apart.
Like why don't you ever play 11?
So nobody plays 11 anymore.
It's the mmo that's inmaintenance mode and you
(22:32):
probably need a personal server.
It's very complicated and sothese games are part of a
franchise because they havethematic connection, but they
are not narratively connected,which is really interesting to
me.
It's always going to beinteresting to me.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So just so we're on the same page, right now, final
Fantasy 11 still has servers.
All you got to do is create aSquare Enix account, install the
Play Online Viewer and FinalFantasy 11, and you can play it.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
You can officially play Final Fantasy 11 right now.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, it still gets updated, Whoa Yep.
Okay, it might be inmaintenance mode, but it still
gets updates.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Wow, that is amazing.
I just learned something.
Thank you, Marcus.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, that's what I do.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
All right, so you can play one through 16 right now
if you wanted to buy the pixelremaster and then spend hundreds
of dollars on seven through allthe.
There's three games in 13.
There's two games in 10.
12 is one game, nine is onegame, eight is one game, seven
is one game.
Game 8 is one game.
7 is one game, but with tworemakes and then you got 15 and
(23:45):
16.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, it's a lot of Final Fantasy.
What I will say to you aboutthe different stories, how
they're not connected, what I dois how each one is different
but it always has the same plot.
You know, some traumatic thinghappens.
You gotta build yourself up.
(24:07):
You're chasing the final bossand it's not the rock and yeah
that's so funny and it's ajourney.
The same way, but it's justtold in different ways yeah,
every game follows the hero'sjourney yeah, yeah it does, but
(24:30):
I guess for final I'm justsaying final fantasy.
You know it's always traumatic,like traumatic thing you're left
, it was scraps and you've gotto build yourself up right, just
like link, link always is badto the bone.
Then he wakes up from hisslumber and he's got a wooden
sword and a carrot yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So what you're describing is the transition
from the separation phase wherethe ordinary world gets
disrupted, and then you have nochoice you either die or you
start fighting.
And if you're heroic, youchoose to start fighting, and in
(25:13):
different ways.
Like the hero is not always avirtuous hero, at the beginning
sometimes they're a little biton that anti-hero arc, but
eventually they learnsomething's important to them
and then they come through andthey decide I'm going to fight
for the right reasons usually.
So that's the call to adventurethat you described, and then
(25:34):
that's the initiation into theheroic cycle, and then the road
of trials and all of thosethings continue from there.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Right, and that's why I was taking us through the
Cult of Adventure today.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Oh, you just initiated the phase of the
conversation.
Wow, see what I do.
Yeah, we're getting there.
Our time management isquestionable tonight, but it's
still a great conversation.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Meant to be that way, right, yeah.
But what I will say, though, issomething that I enjoy about
Final Fantasy and the way theydo it is yes, you're beaten down
, but they always are.
The game is so uplifting, or Ifind it's always like you're
never just like I find thatother games you're just always
(26:19):
like the lowest of low, andthen's always like you're never
just like I find that othergames you're just always like
the lowest of low, and then, allof a sudden, you're the highest
of high.
Where Final Fantasy, it's likeyou're meeting nice people and
they're all like, oh, you'rewelcome here and you can do this
.
And then you do a little sidequest for them and they're happy
for it.
You know what I mean.
They're happy that you're doingthat for them and you're doing
(26:42):
that for them.
And now you got a friend, andit always I don't know.
I feel like final fantasy isalways up on the upward
trajectory.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I never feel like you get that like sharp 90 degree
curve to where, oh, I'm theworst, now I'm the best yeah,
like even clive in final fantasy16, when he's at his lowest
he's not exactly a maidenless,tarnished right like he's gonna
(27:06):
be okay.
He's powerful enough to dosomething.
He's always discovering morestrength.
The power of friendship is abig square enix thing.
Okay, like, friendship is aimportant theme in all these
games.
There is not a single one maybe16 and 15 are the closest, but
(27:32):
there's not a single game in theFinal Fantasy franchise where
one hero does everything alone.
It is built on a party systemand learning how to trust other
people and rely on them, butalso answering your calling and
fulfilling your destiny.
(27:52):
I think destiny and fate arebig themes in these games as
well and a lot of people wrestlewith those themes in their own
lives.
It's really hard sometime towake up with the feeling of I
was meant to do something.
Because that feeling whenyou're not doing well, you start
(28:16):
to begrudgingly work through itlike I have to do something and
that makes it more likely yourun away from that purpose.
And Final Fantasy runs us asplayers mentally right into that
idea through the characters andtheir personal struggles that
you find out more and more witheach scene.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Can I ask you a question, of course?
Who is your favorite boss inFinal Fantasy?
All of them.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Sephiroth.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
No, I just I think he's the most important one to
defeat.
I think that there are verymemorable villains across the
entire franchise, but one thing,who's your favorite?
Okay, I really enjoyed FinalFantasy XIII and XIII-2 back
when those were new games.
I don't remember what thevillain was.
(29:15):
I remember what the centralstruggle was for Lightning and
her sister and that was directlywrestling with fate and trying
to defy fate and that siblingbond save your loved ones, right
.
But I don't remember thevillain in that game.
I would love to replay them sothat I remember.
Final Fantasy VII has Cloud andSephiroth and so many other
(29:40):
memorable things in betweenparty members and also story
beats, and I just think thatstory is a mythology unto itself
, that hundreds of years fromnow, people are going to
remember the feud betweenSephiroth to Cloud and the life
lessons from Zack and Aerith,and they're going to still be
(30:04):
thirsting for Tifa, probably.
But Tifa is amazing and morethan that, and they're still
going to be thinking about allthe other examples from the
Final Fantasy VII story, liketaking care of the planet and
empathy for other people and theevils that can exist in
corporate greed.
And so I think, as far as for astory to really stand the test
(30:30):
of time in a fictional space,like a video game, it needs to
have the hero and the villainand a compelling reason why they
oppose each other.
So Clown, sephiroth, link andGanondorf.
Also, zelda is in there too.
To finish the Triforce, marioand Bowser duh, that's easy.
(30:51):
Dante and Virgil, devil May Cry, chris, redfield and Wesker
from Resident Evil.
I just think that when you havea villain, your game can
transcend time, because now youhave a face for the reason why
the fight is happening.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Two for myself.
One the final fantasy was Ida.
Okay, from final fantasy eightshe's still to this day is one
of my favorite villains of alltime because she was completely
tricked by I forget the boss,the main boss, what was his name
?
Altamedica or something,altamesia, very good, so I
(31:31):
remember she.
She was tricked by him andpossessed not possessed but
taken over.
But I remember that fight andthat was hard.
I got a lot there.
She like whooped me over andover again.
But the other one is did youplay Mass Effect 2?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
I have not played Mass Effect yet at all ever.
It's one of the major gaps inmy gamer history.
But I have the LegendaryEdition on multiple systems.
It's just on the backlog and Ihaven't made the time for it
what was his name?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
the elusive man.
That's who it was.
So he's another one, you like.
He just sat in like this roomand it was all like the like a
son in his background.
He just sat there and smokedcigs and like just commanded
things.
It was amazing.
But yeah, sorceress Eda fromfinal fantasy eight.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Okay, oh, okay, I think for me, another memorable
one would be Jecht, alsotransforming, and then all the
processes tied up in that whichalso connects with the hero's
(32:58):
journey.
There's a stage calledAtonement with the Father or the
Atonement, and Final Fantasy Xhas a really neat direct
interpretation of how that stagecan go and how it can connect
into a climactic fight go andhow it can connect into a
climactic fight, and I loveFinal Fantasy X for that.
(33:18):
So that's.
I never played X.
I mean it's one of the bestones.
It actually the commercials forX and X-2, those games both came
out when I was in high schooland I just remember seeing those
commercials during sportingevents, during wrestling events.
They knew their target audience, I was their target audience.
I was going to see thosecommercials on cable television
(33:40):
and those commercials were socinematic.
The songs were trendy, it madethe world look amazing.
The games hold up todayvisually as far as what you
would expect from a PS2 era game.
It doesn't look like a PS5 gamebut it looks like an amazing
PS2 game.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
What's funny is I haven't looked at gameplay for
Final Fantasy VIII in a longtime and I remember it looking
so amazing.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
And I just watched a.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
YouTube video.
I just watched a YouTube videoof the sorceress Ida fight and I
was like, oh my God, that looksawful.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah, final Fantasy VIII was very hard to play.
Yeah, no, it was hard to play.
I never finished it, actually,because I got to one of the disc
changes yes, kids, these gameson PS1, you got to a certain
point in the story and you hadto switch discs and I remember
(34:40):
switching discs and I got to afight that was pretty
challenging.
I probably should backtrack andlevel up, load my save file
from before that fight and levelup a little bit.
And instead of doing that, Iquit and I didn't realize I was
never going to come back.
But I never did.
And it's been 21 years since Iabandoned Final Fantasy VIII and
never did come back.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Cue the trombone.
Wah, wah, wah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, but Leon Squall shows up in Kingdom Hearts and
that's who that hero is.
For me, he helps Sora atTraverse Town and Yuffie's there
, aerith's there.
It's amazing, I've never beatena Kingdom Hearts we're gonna
talk, we're gonna have episodesabout Kingdom Hearts.
Marcus, it's.
Oh, I am just the prop mastertoday.
(35:27):
Everyone you are.
I just grabbed a Keyblade, so Iam both the undisputed WWE
champion and the Keyblade master.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, all this that would be a fun thing for us to
do is like one of these days onthe first of the month, let's
say February 1st I pick a gamefor you to play and you pick a
game for me to play and we bothhave to dedicate, let let's say,
10 hours to it in the month,because that's an interesting
challenge.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
It makes the game interactive.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
I like it and then the next month of the first
episode, we talk about the gamethat we played, because mine
would be definitely mass effect2 for you and yours would be
whatever do I need to play masseffect 1 in order for mass
effect 2 to hit?
no, well, well, you would know,but Mass Effect 2 is still one
of my favorite games of all timeand that is so good.
You wouldn't have to, becausethey fast forward the story, but
(36:23):
you're only going to be playingit like 10 hours, so for me
it's okay.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
But what if I like the franchise and I can put a
lot of streams into these games?
I think people would enjoyshowing up for that.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
But it's yeah.
But Mass Effect, well, theproblem is Mass Effect 1, even
with the remaster it looks goodbut it still plays clunky where
Mass Effect 2 is like that nextof the next gen back then I
don't know.
I quality of mass effect 1versus mass effect 2 is leaps
and bounds I 100 now rememberplaying the demo for mass effect
(37:02):
2 on my ps3.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Does that sound right ?
Is that timeline correct?
Speaker 1 (37:07):
yeah, yeah okay, xbox 360, greatest system ever.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
yeah, I had it sounded like R2-D2.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yeah, yeah, what.
Not only do we have completedifferent personalities, the
best console war between theboth of us is going to go on for
years, and I love everythingabout it.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
I thought the console war was dead and that we made
peace and everyone can justenjoy games the way they want.
And then we've done twoepisodes of this show and we've
reignited a fun, loving versionof the console wars, where we
just dig at each other for 40minutes and then acknowledge
that playing games is fun andthat the xbox is the superior
(37:49):
system.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You're right, but let me ask you a question.
Go taking us back to finalfantasy, yeah, in 2025.
Does doc prefer the turn-basedcombat or the action combat?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I actually prefer action-based combat and one of
the reasons that a differentgame but I played recently is
Dragon Age the Veil Guard, andthat was my first ever Dragon
Age game.
When that game first released,there were a lot of social media
comparisons going on betweenwhat it's like to play.
(38:27):
Other fantasy world style gamesthat tend to be darker, tend to
be more realistic, morepragmatic.
Dragon Age the Veil Guard is sooptimistic.
Okay, just like you were givingcredit to Final Fantasy for
being optimistic and yes, finalFantasy 16 is a little bit more
of that gritty, darkinterpretation of what a world
(38:48):
can be.
But I promise you Final Fantasy16 ends in a very optimistic
place and it's true to whatFinal Fantasy is in a spiritual
sense.
And Dragon Age of the Veilguardhad that optimism.
Baldur's Gate 3 and games likeElden Ring like Baldur's Gate 3,
(39:09):
very little optimism, butdepending on how you play it.
But Elden Ring, no optimism,the world is ruined.
Good luck surviving.
You tarnished scrub and I thinkI disagree with that?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
No, I disagree.
I believe the people arenegative, but you, as the
tarnished, are positive, becauseyou keep fighting forward and
you're doing things in your ownway, but you're always finding
the way to get through it.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
So I don't actually believe that that's so nice.
Have you ever lost 5 millionrunes in one death?
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I've never had 5 million runes.
The most runes I've ever heldat one time was 226,000.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Everyone make a note.
Marcus thinks Elden Ring isoptimistic but has never lost 5
million runes in one death.
You can't talk, sir, you'reright.
You have different peopletalking to you and guiding you
across Elden Ring and you caninterpret it as you're the one
hope, you're the last hope,you're the final shard of that
(40:12):
ring that can stand up to allthe heresy and restore the Elden
Ring.
That is a very hopeful mission.
I just think that with FinalFantasy you feel closer to the
fulfillment of that destiny,even at your worst moment, than
you tend to in these otherfantasy worlds.
I think that it's easier to seethat hope and understand it and
(40:36):
hold on to it.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah, that's a good answer.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Yeah, I like that.
I'm just trying to think arethere any loose threads on final
fantasy that really belong inthis talk?
Because we could talk aboutspecific games and this podcast
could last an infinite amount oftime because there are more
than 16 final fantasy games.
There's spinoffs, there's.
(41:03):
Have you ever played decidia?
Nope, oh my gosh.
It's a final fantasy fightinggame, but it's not like mortal
maybe it's not mortal combat.
It's a circular environment withplatforms and stuff, and there
is one hero and one villain fromevery final fantasy as the
roster no, I don't think I everplayed it.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Then there was also final fantasy mystic, mystic,
crystal chronicles.
No, nope, oh, that's anotherone.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, it's also Chocobo Racing GP.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
It's so bad, I don't know.
Mystic Quest, that's what it is.
It was for the Super Nintendo.
It came out, I don't know.
Oh, here we go 1992.
Okay, for Super Nintendo Wiiand Wii U.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
We must have redid it .
Oh my gosh, marcus.
I have a Dr Gamology story thatbelongs in this episode,
because it's part of my DrGamology origin story.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Okay, the first huge presentation that I ever was
asked to do at a conference.
First huge presentation that Iever was asked to do at a
conference.
I'd presented before, but neveron topics that really mattered
to me on the gaming side.
The first time I was ever askedto do a topic on video games, I
presented on this person wholost thousands of dollars
(42:30):
gambling on crystals in FinalFantasy, brave Exvius on their
smartphone, which is a game thatis discontinued or wrapping up
now.
But you basically buy lootboxes with these crystals to try
to get these characters and addthem to your squad.
And it was a very fun take onFinal Fantasy because it's one
(42:53):
of those multiverse kinds ofgames.
Every hero could be added tothe newest pack and that's what
would cause this person andother players to spend hundreds
or even thousands of dollarswhen a new pack would come out.
That month, because I have allthese heroes that I really like,
but Cloud is available now.
Month, because I have all theseheroes that I really like, but
(43:14):
Cloud is available now.
So let me drop $1,000 on thesecrystal loot boxes to try to get
Cloud in my party and then somany other heroes.
I talked about this at agambling conference, mental
health conference about gambling.
And again, audience does notnecessarily know what Final
Fantasy is, but I'm talkingabout what that game is from a
practical perspective for thekinds of people they want to
(43:36):
help.
And that really even though Iwas Dr Svotor at the time and I
was representing Star Wars, theOld Republic, as a gamer all day
, every day.
I got to talk about FinalFantasy at a psychology
conference and then otherconferences had people in the
(43:57):
audience kind of scouting whocan we get for our event.
And that is when I startedgetting brought across the
country and getting paid tospeak is because of psychology
and Final Fantasy and eventhough I was talking about
someone whose life got hurt bythis game, people could tell
that I was finding the positivesin gaming and they wanted to
(44:19):
know more about that.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I'm going to tell you a little Dr Gamology origin
story too, but it happened justthe other day on the news.
What they were talking?
Yep, they were talking aboutgaming addiction, oh no, and how
parents have to watch out forit and how much is too much
video games and blah blah.
I just I started talking tomyself to the tv and my wife was
(44:47):
there, my kids were there and Iwas just talking and they're
like what are you babbling about?
And I'm like this is baloney,because if they understood, the
kid may play too many videogames.
But there's a reason why thatkid is playing too many video
games and it's not that they'readdicted to the game.
Maybe that their home life isawful and that's the only way
(45:08):
they can find happiness, ormaybe because they don't
understand the real world andthey're trying to find
themselves through a game world.
And my wife looks at me andjust goes you've been hanging
out with doc way too much butI'm right.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
But the fact that you can think about that now makes
you right.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
And that is so powerful.
It's enlightened me becauseI'll use my own son.
So my own son plays Minecraft.
I play it with him and he playsit a lot, right, like he plays
hockey.
We play outside, we do all thestuff, yeah, but he has no
problem getting into one of hisworlds and playing for three
hours, no problem.
(45:55):
And then he'll be calling me inthe room or I'll pull out my
laptop and sit on his bed andI'll play with him two player
and you should see what thissix-year-old does with blocks
and he creates these worlds andthe way he explains it to you is
unbelievable.
Or he creates a plane floatingin the air and makes like a
(46:17):
replica plane and with seatsinside that he has to use the
stair, tread blocks and turnthem correctly and he knows that
he has to add this one pieceand then add the other piece and
then he can remove the otherpiece to complete the thing and
it's growth and so many peopleare closed-minded to that.
(46:38):
But also too, and yes, I playvideo games, but I see it, it's
not an addiction, he's doing itbecause this is his way of
creating.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
That is an amazing direction for the final leg of
our conversation today, andbecause it has such a mental
health angle.
This is definitely our road oftrials, so we can face that
challenge and discover ourstrengths.
When you're describing whatMinecraft is right there, I
instantly, as the mental healthprofessional here, am thinking
(47:12):
about sand tray therapy and playtherapy and all the times that
I've had kids on the floor in myoffice with these foam blocks,
with these figures, with thistray of sand or shredded paper,
creating a scene and helping meunderstand their world, because
I can't go to their living room,but they can build their living
room and show me what it's liketo see what it's like an hour
(47:37):
before bedtime.
Right, who's in the room?
What kinds of things are theysaying?
What's it like to be aroundthem?
What's your feelings whenyou're this close to them or
this far away from them?
And kids can communicate that,even if they aren't putting it
into words.
Minecraft is connecting withyour son and millions of other
kids, millions of other adultsin a way that is tapping into
(47:59):
the desire to build and createand escape into a world where I
have an idea and I can make thatidea exist.
Okay, that is a power that manyin reality do not have, and I
believe there is actually anagenda being taught by
(48:20):
commercial and societal messagesand news outlets.
It's very similar to the 1980s,where Dungeons and Dragons has
the satanic panic, and videogames since the 90s have
continued to have this message,which is they're irresponsible,
they're lazy, they're childish,they're immoral.
We're in a world where almosteverything we do is done on
(48:59):
screens.
Outside of things that requirephysical interaction, like your
job, marcus, you cannot dothrough a screen the way I
imagine your job, but mine, itturns out, you can.
Every single job thing I dooccurs on a screen.
And are we going to say that Ihave a problem with screen time?
I have a problem withworkaholism?
Call myself out 100%.
I wish I played more videogames.
(49:20):
I really do.
I really do, but I work a lotand that's my challenge.
Okay, but what I'm seeing insociety is if so much of what we
do has been converted toscreens because it's convenient
and it's cost effective, it'salso safer.
Okay, your child is at lowerrisk for many different
(49:46):
tragedies sitting in theirliving room playing Minecraft
than they would be doing otherthings.
In fact, my parents raised meout of a stance of fear,
honestly Like you're going toget abducted, you're going to
(50:07):
get molested, you're going tobreak a bone, you're going to
get influenced by the wrongpeople.
Do you know about peer pressure?
Dare program, right, all of theabove?
None of that's going to hurt mewith video games, except maybe
Melina kicking me in the face inMortal Kombat 2.
I'll get over it Again, mortalKombat or if you're Scorpion,
you'll get over here.
I can't believe I left that oneon the table.
(50:28):
Okay, the table Okay.
So I propose an alternativeexplanation for what kids are
doing on screens and thatperhaps the reason they're
playing so much on screens isbecause play has been outsourced
to screens in most situationsas well.
If you're not playing a sportwith other kids, what actually
(50:49):
does play look like without ascreen?
Just what does going to arestaurant look like without
giving your child an iPad?
Just it's.
This mixed message of parentscan watch all the reality shows
or binge watch a season of theircurrent show, and that's not
screen time, but a child lookingat Minecraft for 25 minutes, oh
my gosh.
(51:10):
Yeah, let people use screensand escape and have an
imagination, because I'm tellingyou, it's not games people that
have this perspective aretrying to eliminate from society
.
It's preventing imagination,because it's a lot easier to
control someone that doesn'thave imagination.
You can train them to beexactly what you need them to be
(51:33):
, to help your life be what youwant to be, and it keeps them in
the passenger seat, keeps youin the driver's seat.
It's a whole.
Would I be able to connectthese dots this way?
Or would I be paranoid enoughto connect these dots this way,
if I never started to questionshinra in final Fantasy VII,
right, the evil corporation thathas become the government and
(51:55):
the army.
They're the bad guys untilSephiroth shows up to become
like the universal Satan villain, right?
Speaker 1 (52:04):
There's a very Bad, bad, bad guy.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
He's the cosmological villain of Final Fantasy VII,
but Shinra is the problem Right,and I think that's a really
interesting thing too.
Bring it back to Final Fantasyis these games give us a
metaphor to understand.
It's entertainment and it's funand it's action and it's virtue
(52:27):
, and it's good versus evil whenyou're a child.
But when you start to doacademic analysis on Final
Fantasy, this is storytelling atits literary peak.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Yeah.
I have one more question foryou.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
All right, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
If I was brand new to Final Fantasy brand new, love
it.
What would be the first FinalFantasy you tell me to play, go?
Speaker 2 (52:57):
Final Fantasy 7 Remake.
Okay, I think it takes the beststory, which is Final Fantasy 7
, and just converts it intomodern technology and it expands
on it to where you understandit.
There is a little bit of awhat's the word there?
(53:19):
There's a little bit of aripple there, though it does get
very meta in the sense thatthere are these beings in final
fantasy Remake called theWhispers, and every time your
character or a character in yourparty or Sephiroth, tries to do
something that did not happenin the original, the Whispers
(53:42):
show up to prevent that changeand make sure the game keeps
going in the original direction.
And so there is an additionallayer to that story that relies
on.
Are you a past player?
Are you a legacy player of thisstory?
But I believe, even if all ofthat goes over your head, it is
(54:05):
an amazing game that leads intoanother amazing game, final
fantasybirth and then that willlead into another amazing game,
and then you will have a200-hour experience that gives
one of the most powerfulfictional stories ever told.
Boom yeah, do you have anopinion about that question?
(54:28):
I'm really curious.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
So it's really hard for me.
That question I'm reallycurious.
So it's really hard for me.
But if I was talking to almost42 year old me that's never
played one, I would say go playfinal fantasy 14.
The reason is because itdoesn't end right like you can
(54:51):
commit yourself to this game andif you're like me, you only get
10 hours a week to play a videogame if you're lucky, right.
So if you only have 10 hoursand that's what you do, you
commit to that game and itdoesn't end so you can always be
doing something to makeyourself better and to fulfill
(55:11):
the gaming gap in your life andget that like check mark.
Oh hey, I like I have 15minutes or 20 minutes, I can
just go do a side quest, or Ican go do a duty, I can go do a
boss fight, I can go dosomething and you feel fulfilled
in being able to game, soyou're happy.
You know what I mean and that'swhat's nice about an MMO.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
Also, you create your character.
I think that's a reallypowerful gaming experience in
terms of psychologicalconnection to the game, and
there's actually research that Iread as a doc student that led
to a lot of what I believe in.
What I've found now that is,watching Mario die on the screen
when you're holding thecontroller and it's your fault
(55:55):
is not as impactful as watchingyour character that you created
die on the screen and you'reholding the controller and it's
your fault, because thatcharacter on some level, is a
part of you.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Yeah, and also I love that answer for for 14.
I love the answer for sevenpeople listening.
If you have a different opinionfor you, your opinion's right
too.
There is no wrong answer tothis question, except some
answers are more difficult thanothers.
But if you love a certain entryin any game franchise and
(56:31):
that's a good starting pointthat you would recommend to
people and you really mean it,you have good will, intention,
that you want a person to enjoythe game and this is the one you
think they should start with.
That's just a sign of how muchyou love the game and your
desire to share that withsomebody.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
Share it with us in the Discord.
Yeah, very soon, marcus willhave his own text channel.
It'll be called the Sidebar andyou can get a hold of me or, if
not, in all the other awesomechannels in the Discord, because
we want to hear your thoughtsand when you think we're wrong,
make sure you tell us.
So, doc, what are we talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (57:13):
next week the easy thing would be to stick with
square enix.
Got cloud right there behind me, got sora right there behind me
.
Easy choice.
But we don't do this journey tomake things easy.
Marcus, I think it would bereally cool for us to talk about
the Legend of Zelda.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Oh boy, whoa, I did not expect that one.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys andgirls, children of all ages, I'm
just, yeah, gear up, I'msweating.
This is going to be a good one.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Yeah, I think it's going to be a good one.
Okay, so I want to also justpoint out I added something.
I went in and made sure all thepodcast stuff in our platform
is set up good enough for ourreturn in the way I want it.
But we're going to keeptweaking it until all the
listings are the way we need itto be.
(58:21):
But because of my connection inresearch and training mental
health professionals, but alsobeing a lifelong gamer, that
goes by the name Dr Gamology, Iadded a sponsor to our list and
I want everybody who listens toour show to know about the
sponsor, because they're doinggreat work and I'm a part of it,
and that is KindBridgeBehavioral Health, and that is
KindBridge Behavioral Health,and so what they do is they're a
nationwide telehealth networkthat specializes in video games
and gambling things and otherbehavioral mental health issues
that a lot of times are talkedabout negatively.
(58:43):
But I am there and our clinicalstaff are trained to talk about
them in whatever way the persondoing the therapy needs them to
.
So if you have a warmth in yourheart for video games and you
say I want my mental health toimprove, they're not going to
spend time in the sessiontalking to you about screen time
and doubting what video gamesare for you.
(59:04):
It's going to be about makingyour life work better for you,
and so they support me, theybelieve in me.
They got my back in the mentalhealth arena.
We're doing big things to changethe way psychology and mental
health works, and so I've listedthem as a sponsor for the show.
Also, if these conversationssound fun to you and you're
looking for some great people toplay online games with, check
(59:27):
out AIE at aie-guildorg ataie-guildorg.
Also, if you're not already,subscribe to Marcus on YouTube.
That's MarcusB814.
And he's going in there to playgames like Final.
Speaker 1 (59:43):
Fantasy.
Speaker 2 (59:44):
Yeah, final Fantasy 16, elden Ring, whatever.
It is Really good time.
Support his channel.
Also, give me a follow onTwitch.
I'd love to talk with youone-on-one, person-to-person
while I'm playing a game, andjust what are your thoughts
about the show?
Do you have anything to add?
Marcus, would you like to sendus off next stage of the journey
?
Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Yeah, I just want to say I have one last quest for
everyone to collect for the day,want to say I have one last
quest for everyone to collectfor the day, do or do not.
Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
There is no try and continue the journey.
That's not from final fantasy,thank you.
Welcome to the Gaming Persona Podcast.
This is the show that exploreswho we become when we play games
.
Today, this is MarcusB814, andI'm joined with by my co-host,
dr Gameology, the author of theGamer's Journey, the professor
from all over the country andthe most dynamic content creator
(00:36):
in all of the world.
How you doing, doc.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I feel like my show just got hijacked.
But not doing the work isintoxicatingicating, and now you
will be typecast.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah, about that, I'm just going with it, so perfect.
Anyways, how has your week beengoing?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Oh man, we're doing this all out of order.
It's been great.
I don't know how to answer thisquestion because I'm the one
who always asks it.
Does that make sense to anybody?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
It makes sense to me and that's why we're doing it.
Cause you so if everybody'slistening.
Doc has red cheeks right nowbecause I completely threw him
for a loop and I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, one of the things that is really
interesting that happened sincelast week when we recorded is
obviously we got the editingdone on the episode.
I uploaded it.
It was ready in time for peopleto listen on Thursday I'm not
sure Thursday's the target dateevery week moving forward.
I think I'd prefer it comingout earlier in the week, but we
(01:36):
got it Major success.
But there is a video versionand I have to figure out what to
do with it and I have Patreonsitting there and I was thinking
maybe I should give the videoversion to Patreon.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So if you're going to do that, I need to know that,
because A I want to look thepart and B like half the episode
.
I might have my finger buriedin my nose and nobody wants to
see that.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Especially if you're paying for it.
Exactly, nobody wants to seethat, especially if you're
paying for it Exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Nobody wants to see it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Either ways, I'm glad to hear you got the show on
track.
It's been a crazy week formyself, but this week I'm
excited.
I know you're excited becauselast week Doc threw me if you
were listening to the show.
Doc threw me under the bus andmade me pick a topic for this
week and we picked Final Fantasy.
So we're going to dive intothat.
But first, doc, what games haveyou played this week?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I have played this week Final fantasy seven rebirth
.
I have played final fantasy 14and that's it.
Those are the two games thatI've played.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Awesome.
Yeah, so I have rediscoveredElden Ring.
Nice, a friend of mine.
Yeah, so a friend of mine wasover for Monday Night Raw this
week because it was the bigNetflix debut, yep.
And so when that happenedafterwards, he asked, would ask
(03:04):
me he's, hey, have you playedelden ring?
And I said no and he goes.
So wait.
So you're still in lindell andyou haven't beaten the erd tree
avatar.
I was like nope, I've tried amillion times.
I think I'm just stressed out.
I had to walk away.
He's, let's go.
So I turned it on first try.
Oh my god, I'm sorry the showis just going down the train no,
(03:25):
this is amazing all right.
So doc just sat down.
He first put his one in the airfor the roman reigns, first
acknowledging him as his tribalchief but number two.
Then he went and got hisundisputed world heavyweight
championship belt.
That's awesome.
So back to the ur tree, soheaven.
(03:48):
So he was like just play it.
So I stood up, played it and Ibeat it first try and I was like
blown away.
I was like dude, I beat it andhe goes.
Dude, you probably were justburnt out of the game and you
needed to step away.
So since then I've played alittle bit more.
I've explored more of lindell,found some cool things and then
(04:08):
I shut it off because I'm reallyenjoying final fantasy 16 it's.
So I'm still in the hideout andI just came back from, like my
first mission.
Yeah, when you leave and comeback.
So I'm probably only three orfour hours in the game, but I'm
enjoying it because it's likeyou get game and then you get
(04:30):
cut scene and like the story isgood.
I haven't decided if I likethat much cut scene with it yet,
but I'm having a lot of fun andI wanted to make sure I played
more Final Fantasy before todaybecause I have a bunch of
opinions and then after the showI'm going to be playing Final
Fantasy before today because Ihave a bunch of opinions and
then after the show I'm going tobe playing Final Fantasy XIV
with Doc.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, final Fantasy XVI was made to specifically be
my ultimate game.
It's storytelling like Game ofThrones in terms of setting and
world and factions and betrayalsand trauma, but it's still
Final Fantasy.
(05:08):
There's crystals, there's magic, there's Final Fantasy.
16 is straight up the monomyth,which is the fancy term for the
hero's journey, and then thecombat system has all the Final
Fantasy tropes which we're goingto talk about.
What it is that makes a gameFinal Fantasy?
It has all that, but the wayyou execute it is devil may cry
(05:34):
and one of the things I thoughtabout a lot when I was writing
the Gamer's Journey.
Marcus is Dante and Virgil andNero make many appearances in
the gamer's journey.
Devil May Cry is a massivefranchise for Capcom.
It's not Street Fighter, it'snot Resident Evil, but it's an
important franchise For sure.
(05:56):
And I was questioning for abouthalfway through the book before
I really found myself and I waslike this is good, I am not
questioning myself anymore.
But the question was do peoplecare about these specific games
as much as I do?
Are they going to read twopages straight about Devil May
(06:18):
Cry in chapter two and tune outand be like that game lost me?
I'm not interested and thatmight happen to some people,
please don't, but the peoplethat have gotten deeper into the
book.
Feedback from people so far isthat it doesn't really matter
which games I'm using to them,because the ideas are connecting
(06:40):
it, even if it's a game theyhaven't played, which is what I
was hoping.
And there might be some peoplewho don't get that.
But so cool.
Devil may cry in final fantasyduring a story from game of
thrones yeah, you're right yeahyeah, I'm.
I was going to actually streamFinal Fantasy 16 this morning,
(07:04):
marcus, except it wasn'tinstalled on my PS5 for my
office and, like the hard drivefor PS5 Slim is not huge, coming
stock from factory right, Ijust don't have all the games I
would want.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So can I ask you a question?
Why don't you just buy them onSteam?
Why don't you just buy them onsteam?
You can stream steam.
You can steam link your gamesto your tv.
Just like a ps5.
You can use your playstation 5controller on a computer and
half the time the games arecheaper on the computer than
they are on the playstationstore that's a great question,
(07:40):
but I played final fantasy 16two years ago, so that's why I I
guess it was more of a blanketstatement that, like you, don't
have to buy it on theplaystation yeah, so it has to
do with setting up streamingsettings in obs and
Speaker 2 (08:00):
okay having to swap everything over and change which
windows show up as mybackgrounds, and also, if it's
running on the PS5, it is notrunning on my hard drive.
So all my hard drive has to dois put the picture that it's
receiving into OBS instead ofactually running the game.
Well, and in my head it feelslike a smart thing to do to just
(08:23):
let my computer focus on thestreaming part.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Sure yeah, I get it If you can laugh.
I completely messed upeverything in this show, which
is great.
Can you tell me, doc, whereeverybody can find you?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I absolutely can At the nine-minute mark.
You can find me at twitchtvslash drgamology.
You can also watch some of myYouTube videos where I go deeper
into breaking down thepsychology of gaming with
specific topics and specificgames.
That's at YouTube Alsodrgamology there, and you can
(09:00):
find this show on Apple Spotifyand also drgamologycom and you
can find this show on.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Apple, spotify and also drgamologycom.
You can find me on YouTube atMarcusB814.
I'm just getting back to thecontent creation roles.
If you could drop that sub,that'd be awesome, yeah, in my
world of growth.
So now, if you guys can picture, I'm getting a ball and I'm
passing it back to Doc to takeover Doc.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Oh yeah, I think that , since we're talking about
Final Fantasy and this is ourfirst real in-depth conversation
about Final Fantasy that ismeant to be shared with the
world I mean, I've been talkingwith Marcus about Final Fantasy
since years, like at least whenI started playing XIV, which
would have been the end of 2019.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Sure, that was a long time ago now wow, it was yeah,
but marcus is so much older nowthis is interesting, so the
entire history of the show.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I have been, just by an edge, the oldest person on
the show.
Marcus has seniority over me asfar as planet Earth is
concerned, and the cool thingabout that is I was just picking
his brain on the phone to getready for the episode 10 hours
ago and he reminded me, doc, Iplayed all the Super Nintendo
(10:25):
Final Fantasies.
I got this and you don't needto worry about what Final
Fantasy opinions I have.
I was like, okay, like I got towork on trusting people, marcus
, because in psychology we havethe stages of human development
and when we're first born we'recrying little poopy baby
(10:46):
machines, and that stage of am Igoing to live and am I going to
die is trust versus mistrust.
And I promise you, marcus, Imust have failed that stage
miserably, because I do not justtrust people easily.
I have to make sure I knowwhat's going to happen before it
happens.
Which brings me to my love ofEmperor Palpatine, in the
(11:10):
mastermind temperament typestyle that trailed off into an
exploded Death Star of Oblivion.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
And I loved every minute of it.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, so let's just start with our entry point into
Final Fantasy and we'll talkabout exactly why these games
mattered to us when we wereyounger, and my hope is that
will just flow into what FinalFantasy is now, just like how we
started talking about thisyears ago.
This franchise started manyyears ago now, about this years
(11:46):
ago.
This franchise started manyyears ago now and maybe we can
also go at least cover a littlebit of the console generations
for this game.
That's interesting, and thereason is in order to really get
a lot of what I'm talking about.
Always, whether you're a mentalhealth professional, a parent,
a gamer or a person who has agamer in their life, sometimes
it helps to understand the gamesthat I'm talking about, so that
(12:08):
the metaphors work for you.
I think, marcus, the reason youjust on the spot picked Final
Fantasy out of the hat isbecause that is probably the
number one game franchise.
To understand what the heck I'mtalking about when I make
content right, do you feel thatway?
No, no, what is then?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
I picked Final Fantasy.
Last week when you put me onthe spot and threw me under the
bus, it was a marshmallow bus,marcus.
Yeah, of course I didn't say itwas squished.
I didn't say it was the bigyellow bus, it was like the
State Puff Marshmallow man bus.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
It wasn't the short bus either.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
No, I didn't say that because I know I at least have
a helmet on.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
But anyway, I can't hear me out okay, you broke me,
you broke character, like sayingthat I'm not oosy enough or
something.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
No dude like you're not oosy enough.
Listen man, you're not incharacter, you're just doc, like
you're not dr gamology.
That Listen man, you're not incharacter, you're just Doc, like
you're not Dr Gameology.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
That's right, you're just Doc.
I'm the undisputed Doc.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Undisputed Doc champion.
No, so the reason.
So you put me on the spot.
A I'm playing.
I started playing Final Fantasy16.
B we're playing Final Fantasy14.
I bought some time game time solike I'm playing it, so and I.
The first Final Fantasy Iplayed was Final Fantasy.
Hold on 4 on the Super Nintendo.
(13:37):
Yeah, in 91.
And I don't remember how old Iwas, but I was never a good
reader as a kid and so I hatedreading books, hated it.
And I went to my doctor one daywith my primary care and my mom
was telling her that I hatedbooks and she suggested that
(14:00):
have you ever read comic books?
And I said no, and my mom tookme to the comic book store and
then she said to me do you playtext-based video games?
I said what's a text-basedvideo game?
And she said Final Fantasy.
And I said what's Final Fantasy?
And she's oh my God, it's.
You basically have to read yourway through the game.
The only way to beat the gameand to beat it is to play
(14:21):
strategy, but also read all thetext, because you don't know
what attacks you're doing.
You don't know anything becausethere's no icons, everything is
just text base.
And I said, okay, that laterthat year my mom got me final
fantasy 4 and I don't know ifit's actually final fantasy 4 in
japan.
It was weird how they likechanged the numbers.
I don't know the actual numbercomparisons but isn't like Final
(14:46):
Fantasy four, like FinalFantasy six in Japan?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Okay, I am not sure the exact numbers here.
I might make a mistake here andif that happens just call me on
social media and correct me.
I want the true information andthat's for our listeners,
obviously.
But I believe Final Fantasy Iin America is Final Fantasy I.
I think Final Fantasy II inAmerica was actually Final
(15:13):
Fantasy IV.
I think Final Fantasy III inAmerica was actually Final
Fantasy VI, and then that meansthat for American audiences they
skipped over the Japanese FinalFantasy 2 and 3 and 5.
But eventually they got to thepoint where they released all of
(15:34):
them on probably the PS1.
And that is when the numbersgot reshuffled and Final Fantasy
3 in America switched to beingcalled six and to switch to
being called four.
So that way releasing two andthree was matching with Japan,
matching five was matching withJapan.
(15:56):
And the reason for thoserelease changes is because those
ones that got hopped over forAmerican audiences have really
hardcore role paint, roleplaying game structures in them
that are not always fun and youcan still enjoy the games, but
(16:17):
you have to be mentally ready todo some things that are very
complex in order to get the mostout.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, but that was my journey beginning of Final
Fantasy.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Okay, Now they go ahead.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
No, no, I was going to say, but I recently saw that
like the switch has, like theCollection which is 1, 2, 3, 4,
5, and 6.
Pixel Remaster yeah, but it's$80.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, because every single game is completely
rebuilt and amazing andbeautiful.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
So there it is.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah.
Answer answered they'refantastic versions of the games
and you can always tag them onSteam with your wishlist and
then buy them when they're onsale Super smart way to do it,
right?
I want to talk about the originof the name Final Fantasy,
because I think that belongs inthis episode and it's something
(17:19):
I want our audience to know.
Moving forward too, because wemight allude to it in future
episodes, and if you'relistening to this one, it's just
going to make sense from thismoment forward.
But Final Fantasy came out inthe 80s and I believe it was for
the Nintendo EntertainmentSystem and the name was
(17:40):
originally conceptualized asmaybe being called fighting
fantasy or some kind of other ff.
They couldn't do that becauseof trademark concerns with a
some kind of a game style booklike a ttrpg maybe or some kind
of gaming adjacent book thatalready existed.
And then also there were a lotof struggles in the company, for
(18:05):
I believe it was called squaresoft back then, and so if this
game had not been successful,the company would have closed
and everyone would have goneseparate ways in their career,
and so, trying to figure outanother FF naming convention,
they're like we're not going todo fighting, maybe we should
(18:25):
just do final.
This is the final fantasy we'regoing to make because we're
going to release it.
Some people play it, it's goingto fail and then we're going to
move on with our lives.
This is the end of the company.
Had a good run, good attempt, goteam, and it hit so hard.
It brought all of the amazingttrpg role-playing games
(18:48):
leveling up, getting experience,magic and classes, turn-based
style warfare, but without dice,which really simplifies it all.
The rng is under the surface,you don't see how the critical
hits and the misses are decided,but it's still there.
The dice are still there, youjust don't see them.
And, in my opinion, finalFantasy and a few other games.
(19:11):
I'm not going to pretend thatFinal Fantasy is the only game
that caused this, but we talkedabout hybridization last week
and how so many other genres nowhave role playing game elements
in them, because it doessomething to the process of
actively playing the game.
That is a positive experiencefor game players and the first
(19:31):
Final Fantasy was a heavycontributor to video games
working the way they do today.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
You're right, you think back at the games that
changed the industry, and FinalFantasy definitely is.
I did not know where FinalFantasy's name came from and how
that all came to be, so Ilearned something there.
But you think back forever.
Generations of players, right,you think of like the
20-somethings playing the nesplayed final fantasy they do the
(20:04):
20-something, something nowyeah, but to the 20-somethings
just starting to play finalfantasy.
With final fantasy 16, you'retalking about multiple
generations of people beinginvolved in final fantasy.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
So every Final Fantasy is in a different
fantasy world, at least if thenumber changes.
Right, these are not sequels.
Like you watch a Star Warsmovie and Luke Skywalker and Han
Solo and Leia, princess Leiaand then you come in for the
next one it's Empire StrikesBack.
And who do you see?
Luke Skywalker, han Solo andPrincess Leia and come back for
(20:41):
empire strikes back.
And who do you see?
Luke skywalker, han solo andprincess leia, and come back for
another one.
And who do you see?
Ewoks and luke skywalker, hansolo and princess leia?
Right?
but then you come back one moretime and it's ray yes, that is
true and everyone that'slistening is going to remember.
That is true, and we're goingto reel that back in and get
(21:02):
back to Final Fantasy.
Final Fantasy, you play one,you become the Warriors of Light
and you pick what is it?
Four of them and that's yourbattle team for the whole game.
And then you play Final Fantasy2, and you are not the same
squad at all and it's not eventhe same political disaster.
(21:24):
It's not the same monster andit's not the same threat to the
planet.
You're right, right.
And so one of the things I thinkabout all the time when I'm
talking to non-gaming typepeople is they ask me what are
you working on?
I'll say I have a researchproject actually brewing.
It's about ready to go throughIRB, it's going to be my next
(21:46):
research data project and it'son Final Fantasy 14.
Okay, and then they ask okay,what are you streaming on Twitch
?
I'm playing Final Fantasy 7Rebirth.
And for these people and it'sokay to not be a gamer, you're
probably not listening to thispodcast if you're not in some
way curious about what it's liketo be a gamer, but I can just
(22:09):
imagine listening to someonetalk on and on about how they
level up all these classes inFinal Fantasy XIV and then they
stream Final Fantasy VII Rebirthand you're wondering why are?
Why are you playing 14 and 7?
They're so far apart.
Like why don't you ever play 11?
So nobody plays 11 anymore.
It's the mmo that's inmaintenance mode and you
(22:32):
probably need a personal server.
It's very complicated and sothese games are part of a
franchise because they havethematic connection, but they
are not narratively connected,which is really interesting to
me.
It's always going to beinteresting to me.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So just so we're on the same page, right now, final
Fantasy 11 still has servers.
All you got to do is create aSquare Enix account, install the
Play Online Viewer and FinalFantasy 11, and you can play it.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
You can officially play Final Fantasy 11 right now.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, it still gets updated, Whoa Yep.
Okay, it might be inmaintenance mode, but it still
gets updates.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Wow, that is amazing.
I just learned something.
Thank you, Marcus.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, that's what I do.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
All right, so you can play one through 16 right now
if you wanted to buy the pixelremaster and then spend hundreds
of dollars on seven through allthe.
There's three games in 13.
There's two games in 10.
12 is one game, nine is onegame, eight is one game, seven
is one game.
Game 8 is one game.
7 is one game, but with tworemakes and then you got 15 and
(23:45):
16.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, it's a lot of Final Fantasy.
What I will say to you aboutthe different stories, how
they're not connected, what I dois how each one is different
but it always has the same plot.
You know, some traumatic thinghappens.
You gotta build yourself up.
(24:07):
You're chasing the final bossand it's not the rock and yeah
that's so funny and it's ajourney.
The same way, but it's justtold in different ways yeah,
every game follows the hero'sjourney yeah, yeah it does, but
(24:30):
I guess for final I'm justsaying final fantasy.
You know it's always traumatic,like traumatic thing you're left
, it was scraps and you've gotto build yourself up right, just
like link, link always is badto the bone.
Then he wakes up from hisslumber and he's got a wooden
sword and a carrot yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So what you're describing is the transition
from the separation phase wherethe ordinary world gets
disrupted, and then you have nochoice you either die or you
start fighting.
And if you're heroic, youchoose to start fighting, and in
(25:13):
different ways.
Like the hero is not always avirtuous hero, at the beginning
sometimes they're a little biton that anti-hero arc, but
eventually they learnsomething's important to them
and then they come through andthey decide I'm going to fight
for the right reasons usually.
So that's the call to adventurethat you described, and then
(25:34):
that's the initiation into theheroic cycle, and then the road
of trials and all of thosethings continue from there.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Right, and that's why I was taking us through the
Cult of Adventure today.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Oh, you just initiated the phase of the
conversation.
Wow, see what I do.
Yeah, we're getting there.
Our time management isquestionable tonight, but it's
still a great conversation.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Meant to be that way, right, yeah.
But what I will say, though, issomething that I enjoy about
Final Fantasy and the way theydo it is yes, you're beaten down
, but they always are.
The game is so uplifting, or Ifind it's always like you're
never just like I find thatother games you're just always
(26:19):
like the lowest of low, andthen's always like you're never
just like I find that othergames you're just always like
the lowest of low, and then, allof a sudden, you're the highest
of high.
Where Final Fantasy, it's likeyou're meeting nice people and
they're all like, oh, you'rewelcome here and you can do this
.
And then you do a little sidequest for them and they're happy
for it.
You know what I mean.
They're happy that you're doingthat for them and you're doing
(26:42):
that for them.
And now you got a friend, andit always I don't know.
I feel like final fantasy isalways up on the upward
trajectory.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I never feel like you get that like sharp 90 degree
curve to where, oh, I'm theworst, now I'm the best yeah,
like even clive in final fantasy16, when he's at his lowest
he's not exactly a maidenless,tarnished right like he's gonna
(27:06):
be okay.
He's powerful enough to dosomething.
He's always discovering morestrength.
The power of friendship is abig square enix thing.
Okay, like, friendship is aimportant theme in all these
games.
There is not a single one maybe16 and 15 are the closest, but
(27:32):
there's not a single game in theFinal Fantasy franchise where
one hero does everything alone.
It is built on a party systemand learning how to trust other
people and rely on them, butalso answering your calling and
fulfilling your destiny.
(27:52):
I think destiny and fate arebig themes in these games as
well and a lot of people wrestlewith those themes in their own
lives.
It's really hard sometime towake up with the feeling of I
was meant to do something.
Because that feeling whenyou're not doing well, you start
(28:16):
to begrudgingly work through itlike I have to do something and
that makes it more likely yourun away from that purpose.
And Final Fantasy runs us asplayers mentally right into that
idea through the characters andtheir personal struggles that
you find out more and more witheach scene.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Can I ask you a question, of course?
Who is your favorite boss inFinal Fantasy?
All of them.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Sephiroth.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
No, I just I think he's the most important one to
defeat.
I think that there are verymemorable villains across the
entire franchise, but one thing,who's your favorite?
Okay, I really enjoyed FinalFantasy XIII and XIII-2 back
when those were new games.
I don't remember what thevillain was.
(29:15):
I remember what the centralstruggle was for Lightning and
her sister and that was directlywrestling with fate and trying
to defy fate and that siblingbond save your loved ones, right
.
But I don't remember thevillain in that game.
I would love to replay them sothat I remember.
Final Fantasy VII has Cloud andSephiroth and so many other
(29:40):
memorable things in betweenparty members and also story
beats, and I just think thatstory is a mythology unto itself
, that hundreds of years fromnow, people are going to
remember the feud betweenSephiroth to Cloud and the life
lessons from Zack and Aerith,and they're going to still be
(30:04):
thirsting for Tifa, probably.
But Tifa is amazing and morethan that, and they're still
going to be thinking about allthe other examples from the
Final Fantasy VII story, liketaking care of the planet and
empathy for other people and theevils that can exist in
corporate greed.
And so I think, as far as for astory to really stand the test
(30:30):
of time in a fictional space,like a video game, it needs to
have the hero and the villainand a compelling reason why they
oppose each other.
So Clown, sephiroth, link andGanondorf.
Also, zelda is in there too.
To finish the Triforce, marioand Bowser duh, that's easy.
(30:51):
Dante and Virgil, devil May Cry, chris, redfield and Wesker
from Resident Evil.
I just think that when you havea villain, your game can
transcend time, because now youhave a face for the reason why
the fight is happening.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Two for myself.
One the final fantasy was Ida.
Okay, from final fantasy eightshe's still to this day is one
of my favorite villains of alltime because she was completely
tricked by I forget the boss,the main boss, what was his name
?
Altamedica or something,altamesia, very good, so I
(31:31):
remember she.
She was tricked by him andpossessed not possessed but
taken over.
But I remember that fight andthat was hard.
I got a lot there.
She like whooped me over andover again.
But the other one is did youplay Mass Effect 2?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
I have not played Mass Effect yet at all ever.
It's one of the major gaps inmy gamer history.
But I have the LegendaryEdition on multiple systems.
It's just on the backlog and Ihaven't made the time for it
what was his name?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
the elusive man.
That's who it was.
So he's another one, you like.
He just sat in like this roomand it was all like the like a
son in his background.
He just sat there and smokedcigs and like just commanded
things.
It was amazing.
But yeah, sorceress Eda fromfinal fantasy eight.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Okay, oh, okay, I think for me, another memorable
one would be Jecht, alsotransforming, and then all the
processes tied up in that whichalso connects with the hero's
(32:58):
journey.
There's a stage calledAtonement with the Father or the
Atonement, and Final Fantasy Xhas a really neat direct
interpretation of how that stagecan go and how it can connect
into a climactic fight go andhow it can connect into a
climactic fight, and I loveFinal Fantasy X for that.
(33:18):
So that's.
I never played X.
I mean it's one of the bestones.
It actually the commercials forX and X-2, those games both came
out when I was in high schooland I just remember seeing those
commercials during sportingevents, during wrestling events.
They knew their target audience, I was their target audience.
I was going to see thosecommercials on cable television
(33:40):
and those commercials were socinematic.
The songs were trendy, it madethe world look amazing.
The games hold up todayvisually as far as what you
would expect from a PS2 era game.
It doesn't look like a PS5 gamebut it looks like an amazing
PS2 game.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
What's funny is I haven't looked at gameplay for
Final Fantasy VIII in a longtime and I remember it looking
so amazing.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
And I just watched a.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
YouTube video.
I just watched a YouTube videoof the sorceress Ida fight and I
was like, oh my God, that looksawful.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah, final Fantasy VIII was very hard to play.
Yeah, no, it was hard to play.
I never finished it, actually,because I got to one of the disc
changes yes, kids, these gameson PS1, you got to a certain
point in the story and you hadto switch discs and I remember
(34:40):
switching discs and I got to afight that was pretty
challenging.
I probably should backtrack andlevel up, load my save file
from before that fight and levelup a little bit.
And instead of doing that, Iquit and I didn't realize I was
never going to come back.
But I never did.
And it's been 21 years since Iabandoned Final Fantasy VIII and
never did come back.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Cue the trombone.
Wah, wah, wah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, but Leon Squall shows up in Kingdom Hearts and
that's who that hero is.
For me, he helps Sora atTraverse Town and Yuffie's there
, aerith's there.
It's amazing, I've never beatena Kingdom Hearts we're gonna
talk, we're gonna have episodesabout Kingdom Hearts.
Marcus, it's.
Oh, I am just the prop mastertoday.
(35:27):
Everyone you are.
I just grabbed a Keyblade, so Iam both the undisputed WWE
champion and the Keyblade master.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, all this that would be a fun thing for us to
do is like one of these days onthe first of the month, let's
say February 1st I pick a gamefor you to play and you pick a
game for me to play and we bothhave to dedicate, let let's say,
10 hours to it in the month,because that's an interesting
challenge.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
It makes the game interactive.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
I like it and then the next month of the first
episode, we talk about the gamethat we played, because mine
would be definitely mass effect2 for you and yours would be
whatever do I need to play masseffect 1 in order for mass
effect 2 to hit?
no, well, well, you would know,but Mass Effect 2 is still one
of my favorite games of all timeand that is so good.
You wouldn't have to, becausethey fast forward the story, but
(36:23):
you're only going to be playingit like 10 hours, so for me
it's okay.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
But what if I like the franchise and I can put a
lot of streams into these games?
I think people would enjoyshowing up for that.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
But it's yeah.
But Mass Effect, well, theproblem is Mass Effect 1, even
with the remaster it looks goodbut it still plays clunky where
Mass Effect 2 is like that nextof the next gen back then I
don't know.
I quality of mass effect 1versus mass effect 2 is leaps
and bounds I 100 now rememberplaying the demo for mass effect
(37:02):
2 on my ps3.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Does that sound right ?
Is that timeline correct?
Speaker 1 (37:07):
yeah, yeah okay, xbox 360, greatest system ever.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
yeah, I had it sounded like R2-D2.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yeah, yeah, what.
Not only do we have completedifferent personalities, the
best console war between theboth of us is going to go on for
years, and I love everythingabout it.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
I thought the console war was dead and that we made
peace and everyone can justenjoy games the way they want.
And then we've done twoepisodes of this show and we've
reignited a fun, loving versionof the console wars, where we
just dig at each other for 40minutes and then acknowledge
that playing games is fun andthat the xbox is the superior
(37:49):
system.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You're right, but let me ask you a question.
Go taking us back to finalfantasy, yeah, in 2025.
Does doc prefer the turn-basedcombat or the action combat?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I actually prefer action-based combat and one of
the reasons that a differentgame but I played recently is
Dragon Age the Veil Guard, andthat was my first ever Dragon
Age game.
When that game first released,there were a lot of social media
comparisons going on betweenwhat it's like to play.
(38:27):
Other fantasy world style gamesthat tend to be darker, tend to
be more realistic, morepragmatic.
Dragon Age the Veil Guard is sooptimistic.
Okay, just like you were givingcredit to Final Fantasy for
being optimistic and yes, finalFantasy 16 is a little bit more
of that gritty, darkinterpretation of what a world
(38:48):
can be.
But I promise you Final Fantasy16 ends in a very optimistic
place and it's true to whatFinal Fantasy is in a spiritual
sense.
And Dragon Age of the Veilguardhad that optimism.
Baldur's Gate 3 and games likeElden Ring like Baldur's Gate 3,
(39:09):
very little optimism, butdepending on how you play it.
But Elden Ring, no optimism,the world is ruined.
Good luck surviving.
You tarnished scrub and I thinkI disagree with that?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
No, I disagree.
I believe the people arenegative, but you, as the
tarnished, are positive, becauseyou keep fighting forward and
you're doing things in your ownway, but you're always finding
the way to get through it.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
So I don't actually believe that that's so nice.
Have you ever lost 5 millionrunes in one death?
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I've never had 5 million runes.
The most runes I've ever heldat one time was 226,000.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Everyone make a note.
Marcus thinks Elden Ring isoptimistic but has never lost 5
million runes in one death.
You can't talk, sir, you'reright.
You have different peopletalking to you and guiding you
across Elden Ring and you caninterpret it as you're the one
hope, you're the last hope,you're the final shard of that
(40:12):
ring that can stand up to allthe heresy and restore the Elden
Ring.
That is a very hopeful mission.
I just think that with FinalFantasy you feel closer to the
fulfillment of that destiny,even at your worst moment, than
you tend to in these otherfantasy worlds.
I think that it's easier to seethat hope and understand it and
(40:36):
hold on to it.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah, that's a good answer.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Yeah, I like that.
I'm just trying to think arethere any loose threads on final
fantasy that really belong inthis talk?
Because we could talk aboutspecific games and this podcast
could last an infinite amount oftime because there are more
than 16 final fantasy games.
There's spinoffs, there's.
(41:03):
Have you ever played decidia?
Nope, oh my gosh.
It's a final fantasy fightinggame, but it's not like mortal
maybe it's not mortal combat.
It's a circular environment withplatforms and stuff, and there
is one hero and one villain fromevery final fantasy as the
roster no, I don't think I everplayed it.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Then there was also final fantasy mystic, mystic,
crystal chronicles.
No, nope, oh, that's anotherone.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, it's also Chocobo Racing GP.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
It's so bad, I don't know.
Mystic Quest, that's what it is.
It was for the Super Nintendo.
It came out, I don't know.
Oh, here we go 1992.
Okay, for Super Nintendo Wiiand Wii U.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
We must have redid it .
Oh my gosh, marcus.
I have a Dr Gamology story thatbelongs in this episode,
because it's part of my DrGamology origin story.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Okay, the first huge presentation that I ever was
asked to do at a conference.
First huge presentation that Iever was asked to do at a
conference.
I'd presented before, but neveron topics that really mattered
to me on the gaming side.
The first time I was ever askedto do a topic on video games, I
presented on this person wholost thousands of dollars
(42:30):
gambling on crystals in FinalFantasy, brave Exvius on their
smartphone, which is a game thatis discontinued or wrapping up
now.
But you basically buy lootboxes with these crystals to try
to get these characters and addthem to your squad.
And it was a very fun take onFinal Fantasy because it's one
(42:53):
of those multiverse kinds ofgames.
Every hero could be added tothe newest pack and that's what
would cause this person andother players to spend hundreds
or even thousands of dollarswhen a new pack would come out.
That month, because I have allthese heroes that I really like,
but Cloud is available now.
Month, because I have all theseheroes that I really like, but
(43:14):
Cloud is available now.
So let me drop $1,000 on thesecrystal loot boxes to try to get
Cloud in my party and then somany other heroes.
I talked about this at agambling conference, mental
health conference about gambling.
And again, audience does notnecessarily know what Final
Fantasy is, but I'm talkingabout what that game is from a
practical perspective for thekinds of people they want to
(43:36):
help.
And that really even though Iwas Dr Svotor at the time and I
was representing Star Wars, theOld Republic, as a gamer all day
, every day.
I got to talk about FinalFantasy at a psychology
conference and then otherconferences had people in the
(43:57):
audience kind of scouting whocan we get for our event.
And that is when I startedgetting brought across the
country and getting paid tospeak is because of psychology
and Final Fantasy and eventhough I was talking about
someone whose life got hurt bythis game, people could tell
that I was finding the positivesin gaming and they wanted to
(44:19):
know more about that.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I'm going to tell you a little Dr Gamology origin
story too, but it happened justthe other day on the news.
What they were talking?
Yep, they were talking aboutgaming addiction, oh no, and how
parents have to watch out forit and how much is too much
video games and blah blah.
I just I started talking tomyself to the tv and my wife was
(44:47):
there, my kids were there and Iwas just talking and they're
like what are you babbling about?
And I'm like this is baloney,because if they understood, the
kid may play too many videogames.
But there's a reason why thatkid is playing too many video
games and it's not that they'readdicted to the game.
Maybe that their home life isawful and that's the only way
(45:08):
they can find happiness, ormaybe because they don't
understand the real world andthey're trying to find
themselves through a game world.
And my wife looks at me andjust goes you've been hanging
out with doc way too much butI'm right.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
But the fact that you can think about that now makes
you right.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
And that is so powerful.
It's enlightened me becauseI'll use my own son.
So my own son plays Minecraft.
I play it with him and he playsit a lot, right, like he plays
hockey.
We play outside, we do all thestuff, yeah, but he has no
problem getting into one of hisworlds and playing for three
hours, no problem.
(45:55):
And then he'll be calling me inthe room or I'll pull out my
laptop and sit on his bed andI'll play with him two player
and you should see what thissix-year-old does with blocks
and he creates these worlds andthe way he explains it to you is
unbelievable.
Or he creates a plane floatingin the air and makes like a
(46:17):
replica plane and with seatsinside that he has to use the
stair, tread blocks and turnthem correctly and he knows that
he has to add this one pieceand then add the other piece and
then he can remove the otherpiece to complete the thing and
it's growth and so many peopleare closed-minded to that.
(46:38):
But also too, and yes, I playvideo games, but I see it, it's
not an addiction, he's doing itbecause this is his way of
creating.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
That is an amazing direction for the final leg of
our conversation today, andbecause it has such a mental
health angle.
This is definitely our road oftrials, so we can face that
challenge and discover ourstrengths.
When you're describing whatMinecraft is right there, I
instantly, as the mental healthprofessional here, am thinking
(47:12):
about sand tray therapy and playtherapy and all the times that
I've had kids on the floor in myoffice with these foam blocks,
with these figures, with thistray of sand or shredded paper,
creating a scene and helping meunderstand their world, because
I can't go to their living room,but they can build their living
room and show me what it's liketo see what it's like an hour
(47:37):
before bedtime.
Right, who's in the room?
What kinds of things are theysaying?
What's it like to be aroundthem?
What's your feelings whenyou're this close to them or
this far away from them?
And kids can communicate that,even if they aren't putting it
into words.
Minecraft is connecting withyour son and millions of other
kids, millions of other adultsin a way that is tapping into
(47:59):
the desire to build and createand escape into a world where I
have an idea and I can make thatidea exist.
Okay, that is a power that manyin reality do not have, and I
believe there is actually anagenda being taught by
(48:20):
commercial and societal messagesand news outlets.
It's very similar to the 1980s,where Dungeons and Dragons has
the satanic panic, and videogames since the 90s have
continued to have this message,which is they're irresponsible,
they're lazy, they're childish,they're immoral.
We're in a world where almosteverything we do is done on
(48:59):
screens.
Outside of things that requirephysical interaction, like your
job, marcus, you cannot dothrough a screen the way I
imagine your job, but mine, itturns out, you can.
Every single job thing I dooccurs on a screen.
And are we going to say that Ihave a problem with screen time?
I have a problem withworkaholism?
Call myself out 100%.
I wish I played more videogames.
(49:20):
I really do.
I really do, but I work a lotand that's my challenge.
Okay, but what I'm seeing insociety is if so much of what we
do has been converted toscreens because it's convenient
and it's cost effective, it'salso safer.
Okay, your child is at lowerrisk for many different
(49:46):
tragedies sitting in theirliving room playing Minecraft
than they would be doing otherthings.
In fact, my parents raised meout of a stance of fear,
honestly Like you're going toget abducted, you're going to
(50:07):
get molested, you're going tobreak a bone, you're going to
get influenced by the wrongpeople.
Do you know about peer pressure?
Dare program, right, all of theabove?
None of that's going to hurt mewith video games, except maybe
Melina kicking me in the face inMortal Kombat 2.
I'll get over it Again, mortalKombat or if you're Scorpion,
you'll get over here.
I can't believe I left that oneon the table.
(50:28):
Okay, the table Okay.
So I propose an alternativeexplanation for what kids are
doing on screens and thatperhaps the reason they're
playing so much on screens isbecause play has been outsourced
to screens in most situationsas well.
If you're not playing a sportwith other kids, what actually
(50:49):
does play look like without ascreen?
Just what does going to arestaurant look like without
giving your child an iPad?
Just it's.
This mixed message of parentscan watch all the reality shows
or binge watch a season of theircurrent show, and that's not
screen time, but a child lookingat Minecraft for 25 minutes, oh
my gosh.
(51:10):
Yeah, let people use screensand escape and have an
imagination, because I'm tellingyou, it's not games people that
have this perspective aretrying to eliminate from society
.
It's preventing imagination,because it's a lot easier to
control someone that doesn'thave imagination.
You can train them to beexactly what you need them to be
(51:33):
, to help your life be what youwant to be, and it keeps them in
the passenger seat, keeps youin the driver's seat.
It's a whole.
Would I be able to connectthese dots this way?
Or would I be paranoid enoughto connect these dots this way,
if I never started to questionshinra in final Fantasy VII,
right, the evil corporation thathas become the government and
(51:55):
the army.
They're the bad guys untilSephiroth shows up to become
like the universal Satan villain, right?
Speaker 1 (52:04):
There's a very Bad, bad, bad guy.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
He's the cosmological villain of Final Fantasy VII,
but Shinra is the problem Right,and I think that's a really
interesting thing too.
Bring it back to Final Fantasyis these games give us a
metaphor to understand.
It's entertainment and it's funand it's action and it's virtue
(52:27):
, and it's good versus evil whenyou're a child.
But when you start to doacademic analysis on Final
Fantasy, this is storytelling atits literary peak.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Yeah.
I have one more question foryou.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
All right, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
If I was brand new to Final Fantasy brand new, love
it.
What would be the first FinalFantasy you tell me to play, go?
Speaker 2 (52:57):
Final Fantasy 7 Remake.
Okay, I think it takes the beststory, which is Final Fantasy 7
, and just converts it intomodern technology and it expands
on it to where you understandit.
There is a little bit of awhat's the word there?
(53:19):
There's a little bit of aripple there, though it does get
very meta in the sense thatthere are these beings in final
fantasy Remake called theWhispers, and every time your
character or a character in yourparty or Sephiroth, tries to do
something that did not happenin the original, the Whispers
(53:42):
show up to prevent that changeand make sure the game keeps
going in the original direction.
And so there is an additionallayer to that story that relies
on.
Are you a past player?
Are you a legacy player of thisstory?
But I believe, even if all ofthat goes over your head, it is
(54:05):
an amazing game that leads intoanother amazing game, final
fantasybirth and then that willlead into another amazing game,
and then you will have a200-hour experience that gives
one of the most powerfulfictional stories ever told.
Boom yeah, do you have anopinion about that question?
(54:28):
I'm really curious.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
So it's really hard for me.
That question I'm reallycurious.
So it's really hard for me.
But if I was talking to almost42 year old me that's never
played one, I would say go playfinal fantasy 14.
The reason is because itdoesn't end right like you can
(54:51):
commit yourself to this game andif you're like me, you only get
10 hours a week to play a videogame if you're lucky, right.
So if you only have 10 hoursand that's what you do, you
commit to that game and itdoesn't end so you can always be
doing something to makeyourself better and to fulfill
(55:11):
the gaming gap in your life andget that like check mark.
Oh hey, I like I have 15minutes or 20 minutes, I can
just go do a side quest, or Ican go do a duty, I can go do a
boss fight, I can go dosomething and you feel fulfilled
in being able to game, soyou're happy.
You know what I mean and that'swhat's nice about an MMO.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
Also, you create your character.
I think that's a reallypowerful gaming experience in
terms of psychologicalconnection to the game, and
there's actually research that Iread as a doc student that led
to a lot of what I believe in.
What I've found now that is,watching Mario die on the screen
when you're holding thecontroller and it's your fault
(55:55):
is not as impactful as watchingyour character that you created
die on the screen and you'reholding the controller and it's
your fault, because thatcharacter on some level, is a
part of you.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Yeah, and also I love that answer for for 14.
I love the answer for sevenpeople listening.
If you have a different opinionfor you, your opinion's right
too.
There is no wrong answer tothis question, except some
answers are more difficult thanothers.
But if you love a certain entryin any game franchise and
(56:31):
that's a good starting pointthat you would recommend to
people and you really mean it,you have good will, intention,
that you want a person to enjoythe game and this is the one you
think they should start with.
That's just a sign of how muchyou love the game and your
desire to share that withsomebody.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
Share it with us in the Discord.
Yeah, very soon, marcus willhave his own text channel.
It'll be called the Sidebar andyou can get a hold of me or, if
not, in all the other awesomechannels in the Discord, because
we want to hear your thoughtsand when you think we're wrong,
make sure you tell us.
So, doc, what are we talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (57:13):
next week the easy thing would be to stick with
square enix.
Got cloud right there behind me, got sora right there behind me
.
Easy choice.
But we don't do this journey tomake things easy.
Marcus, I think it would bereally cool for us to talk about
the Legend of Zelda.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Oh boy, whoa, I did not expect that one.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys andgirls, children of all ages, I'm
just, yeah, gear up, I'msweating.
This is going to be a good one.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Yeah, I think it's going to be a good one.
Okay, so I want to also justpoint out I added something.
I went in and made sure all thepodcast stuff in our platform
is set up good enough for ourreturn in the way I want it.
But we're going to keeptweaking it until all the
listings are the way we need itto be.
(58:21):
But because of my connection inresearch and training mental
health professionals, but alsobeing a lifelong gamer, that
goes by the name Dr Gamology, Iadded a sponsor to our list and
I want everybody who listens toour show to know about the
sponsor, because they're doinggreat work and I'm a part of it,
and that is KindBridgeBehavioral Health, and that is
KindBridge Behavioral Health,and so what they do is they're a
nationwide telehealth networkthat specializes in video games
and gambling things and otherbehavioral mental health issues
that a lot of times are talkedabout negatively.
(58:43):
But I am there and our clinicalstaff are trained to talk about
them in whatever way the persondoing the therapy needs them to
.
So if you have a warmth in yourheart for video games and you
say I want my mental health toimprove, they're not going to
spend time in the sessiontalking to you about screen time
and doubting what video gamesare for you.
(59:04):
It's going to be about makingyour life work better for you,
and so they support me, theybelieve in me.
They got my back in the mentalhealth arena.
We're doing big things to changethe way psychology and mental
health works, and so I've listedthem as a sponsor for the show.
Also, if these conversationssound fun to you and you're
looking for some great people toplay online games with, check
(59:27):
out AIE at aie-guildorg ataie-guildorg.
Also, if you're not already,subscribe to Marcus on YouTube.
That's MarcusB814.
And he's going in there to playgames like Final.
Speaker 1 (59:43):
Fantasy.
Speaker 2 (59:44):
Yeah, final Fantasy 16, elden Ring, whatever.
It is Really good time.
Support his channel.
Also, give me a follow onTwitch.
I'd love to talk with youone-on-one, person-to-person
while I'm playing a game, andjust what are your thoughts
about the show?
Do you have anything to add?
Marcus, would you like to sendus off next stage of the journey
?
Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Yeah, I just want to say I have one last quest for
everyone to collect for the day,want to say I have one last
quest for everyone to collectfor the day, do or do not.
Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
There is no try and continue the journey.
That's not from final fantasy,thank you.
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