November 13, 2025 • 46 mins
A great game can feel like a new friendship—instant chemistry, shared language, late‑night rabbit holes—until the credits roll and something just doesn’t land. We start with that feeling: Mass Effect Andromeda’s highs in worldbuilding and system exploration, and the lows of a rushed epilogue and a final encounter that denies closure. From there, we get honest about review scales, why “a seven” shouldn’t mean “bad,” and how a “solid six” can still be worth the hours if the journey resonates.
That opens a bigger door: how MMOs quietly steal years of single‑player discovery. We trade stories about living inside gear treadmills and weekly resets, missing legendary campaigns like the Batman Arkham series and Hollow Knight. Reclaiming that time leads to better nights with games that truly fit our mood. We unpack streaming choices, Elden Ring memories, and the tug‑of‑war between magic builds, melee pride, and the notorious panic roll.
Then we dive into the science of psychological flow. Not a vibe—an alignment. We break down how challenge, skill, and instant feedback sync in games like Elden Ring, Tetris, and, surprisingly, Expedition 33. Turn‑based battles shouldn’t enable flow, yet precise parry and dodge windows create a rhythmic loop where time fades and control feels effortless. We contrast that with Elden Ring’s relentless pressure: sublime when mastered, overwhelming when you can’t find your footing. Finally, we tackle famous finales—Mass Effect 3’s polarizing choice, Arkham Asylum’s underwhelming last fight, and KOTOR II’s publisher‑rushed conclusion later rescued by mods—showing how expectations, production realities, and player agency collide at the finish line.
If you’ve ever adored a game and sighed at the credits, this conversation is for you. Listen, share your most disappointing ending, and tell us where you hit true flow—boss fights or exploration. Subscribe, leave a review, and send this to a gamer who needs to reclaim their playtime.
If you would like to support the show and help us unlock additional possibilities for future episodes and projects, this can now be done through Patreon!
You can watch us play games LIVE and join our communities to get more connection from every episode:
- DrGameology on Twitch - Continue the Journey LIVE in 2025!!
- MarcusB814 on YouTube - BOOMBA
Subscribe on YouTube for more content on the Psychology of Gaming or Follow on Twitch to catch the Live Streams!
For more info, check out DrGameology.com!
More Links Here!
Thanks for Listening, and Continue The Journey!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
A lot to say.
It's gonna start with Once Upona Time or No, I was thinking
once this one time at Bandcamp.
SPEAKER_03 (00:09):
A long time ago.
SPEAKER_02 (00:16):
So you know when you instantly have a connection with
somebody?
Right?
Yeah.
It's instant.
Right, sure.
So my new job, I went to theoffice in Boston this week for a
meeting with the team, and I meta bunch of the team members.
Come to find out, one of theguys, guess what his favorite
(00:38):
game is?
Mass Effect 2.
Boom.
SPEAKER_03 (00:43):
I thought it was gonna say Destiny.
I was gonna say Star Wars, theold Republic.
SPEAKER_02 (00:49):
This is why we all have different personality
types.
But when I found that out, likethe whole world opened up for me
and this guy.
And then like I like I've neverhad a corporate job before, like
a real like kind of one wherethey're like talk corporate
speak.
And this guy messages me todaywith yo, what's good, brother?
(01:10):
And I'm like, all right, thisguy's my guy.
Like, this is the guy I'm gonnatalk to all the time.
You know what I mean?
Kind of a thing.
But it made me think becauseDoritos sent a message earlier
this week that he beat a game.
I did.
I'll say that this afternoon.
No, last night?
Last night.
Oh, wow.
See, I don't even know what dayit is anymore.
SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
Well, today is the I don't know what day it is
either, but please tell us allabout it, Doritos.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
No, I I I finished off Mass Effect Andromeda.
Um like I said in our littlegroup message, it it's you know,
I'm I I've got it done, checkthe box, it's it's finished, but
it was unsatisfactory.
I didn't get a lot of conclusionbecause you you don't actually
(02:03):
kill the final encounter.
You know that the antagonistorganization still exists, and
they've set it up for sequels,and you your your personal story
(02:26):
isn't well concluded.
Now they did put an epilogue inthere, but even then it's it was
felt rushed, so it's like andlet's hurry up.
It's the whole the okayproduction, you're here.
We need to sh get this gamewrapped up and shipped by X
date.
Hurry up and conclude just thisthing so we can put a bow on it,
(02:48):
test it, and get it out thedoor.
And that's what it felt like.
SPEAKER_02 (02:53):
Did the game feel like I have so many questions?
Did the game feel like MassEffect to you?
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
Sort of they put a lot of energy into the system
exploration.
Now, you don't like in MassEffect one and two, where you
actually go onto the planet andand look for resources.
Well, and one you do that, two,you just scan the planet.
Right, two, two, that's right,two, you scan.
It had that sort of mechanic,but you didn't do that kind of
(03:27):
scan.
That that kind of scanning wasactually on the handful of
planets you actually had uhquest lines on.
But the scanning of the systems,I mean, again, the it was good
concept art of okay, if you hadto create what the Andromeda
Galaxy looked like in thevarious systems, it was good,
and how you were able to travelthrough was okay.
(03:52):
But again, it that that was thatwas definitely part of where
they put a lot of energy in wassome of the world creation and
system creations.
SPEAKER_02 (04:02):
What about the dialogue?
See, I like I said, I gotthrough 20 minutes of it and I
shut it off.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
The dialogue for the game was good conceptually, it's
a good way to take it, but youknow, it's not the whole you're
you're trying to do two things.
You're trying to establish thethe human colonies and stuff,
and and another race coloniesfrom Mass Effect.
(04:30):
So you got the Asari, theKrogan, the the Solarian, and
everybody's trying to establishthe their home world, but you
have this imagine this anancient technology race that is
scattered throughout the galaxythat you have to go uncover and
determine how they were doingstuff.
(04:51):
Then you have this otherclandestine antagonist group
that is trying to overthrow andcontrol that technology.
Oh wow.
So again, it's very similar towhat you've played already in
all your Mass Effects, justthere's not as it's very heavy
(05:14):
in the system, the the moregeopolitical system building
than the terraforming.
SPEAKER_03 (05:25):
Okay.
So the way you're describingthat, Doritos, is like when
someone says, Hey, you know thisperson at work, they're really
fun to hang out with.
So you hang out with them andthey're just weird the whole
night, and you just know thewhole time you're not hanging
out with them ever again.
Right also has ruined yourfriendship with the first person
(05:47):
because it's like, why the heckwould you recommend that to me?
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
Yeah, kinda sorta, yeah.
It was similar to that.
SPEAKER_02 (05:56):
That's an interesting way to put it.
I was just thinking that itsounds to me that this is so the
way I grade games is different,right?
Like I think a mid-game, likemiddle of the road game is a
five and a half or a six, right?
(06:16):
But in the world of reviews, youget a five or a six, it's a
terrible game.
Right, exactly.
Right.
Where like they're like seven isthe base.
If you get a seven, you're doingokay, it's not great.
But like it sounds to me you'rea the Andromeda's a middle of
the road game.
SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
I give it a solid six, maybe six and a half from
on on our on our grading scale.
Yes, you ducks ducks.
I'm giving it a three.
I'm giving it to play.
Doc saying he wants to play MassEffect three.
He's holding three fingers, hewants to play Mass Effect 3.
Doc's never play Mass Effect 3.
So, I mean, I I'm glad I playedthrough it.
(06:57):
And you know, I may go back anddo another playthrough later,
but it's not gonna be anytimesoon.
SPEAKER_02 (07:03):
I'm gonna throw it out there that you're never
playing that game again, andthat's A-O-K.
Yeah, it's possible.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Yeah, I've moved it over into the games I've
completed at least once pile.
Yeah.
So what's the next venture?
I have no idea.
Ooh, Claire Obscure Expedition33.
It's on the list.
I just have to download it.
Uh, it's so I might try to gothrough the throw go through
Hollow Knight one because I knowmy son started playing it
(07:30):
because I've already got it andgot it downloaded.
I got the Batman Arkham seriesto go through.
I haven't ever I didn't evendownload those yet.
So good.
SPEAKER_03 (07:39):
I Platinum Trophied the first two.
Like Arkham City is one of myfavorite games of all time.
I've never played them.
SPEAKER_04 (07:51):
So I've got the Do you like Batman, Marcus?
SPEAKER_03 (07:54):
I'm Batman.
Well, you gotta play him.
SPEAKER_02 (07:57):
Like they're just Marcus nothing.
Okay, so I'm gonna talk.
I'm gonna going sidebar.
This is why MMOs ruin gamers.
Greed.
Okay, so what I mean by that isnot the social side of it or
like going outside and touchinggrass.
I'm not saying that.
What I'm saying is I was stuckin the Star Wars old, the old
(08:20):
republic warp for so long that Ididn't play all of these games
that were so good because I wasplaying Star Wars.
And and I was at a like amindset that if I stopped to
play any other game, I I I couldbe doing flashpoints, I could be
(08:42):
grinding levels, I could begetting gear.
I need gear, gear, gear.
And I never I never played, I'vemissed out on so many games
because of MMOs.
Like I think about it now.
I'm playing maybe single, well,probably like top five game top
(09:07):
four games for me of all time.
And I would have never playedthis if I was in an MMO.
SPEAKER_03 (09:18):
That's a real thing.
And on that topic, I chose tostream Final Fantasy XIV this
morning.
Yeah, I broke the Fortnitestreak.
SPEAKER_02 (09:31):
Is it because you're not interested in Fortnite?
Is it because you're like burntout on it?
Is it because that you justneeded a change?
SPEAKER_03 (09:41):
What was the reason?
There's story content that isnow old and I haven't done it on
my main character.
And I had a couple differentplans in my head, and Dream Labs
has a really funky system forgoing live when you're streaming
(10:03):
to multiple places, and YouTubewould not take my stream title
for multiple tries, so everytime I just tried a different
game, and the time that wentthrough was Final Fantasy XIV.
I actually typed a stream titlethis morning for Fortnite, and I
(10:24):
typed one for Persona 3, andthen I typed one for Final
Fantasy XIV and it went through.
Just quirky stuff, but I hadthis other thing in my head that
I thought would be fun.
I've only ever completed EldenRing on the PC version, and as
(10:45):
people who listened to the showover a hundred episodes ago, I
started Elden Ring originally asa PS5 game, and I switched
because I wanted to have theextra monitor right there and be
able to look things up and playmostly in solitude, not in my
living room, and be kind of gamethat I need to be able to look
(11:08):
stuff up while I'm playing it.
But as a result, some of my bestElden Ring memories have no
video footage, nothing I canedit together for YouTube stuff,
and it's it doesn't feel likeit's part of my Twitch journey.
So I downloaded Elden Ring onthe PS5, it's right there, and I
almost went live playing that,but I know that I'll spend about
(11:33):
an hour trying to get the faceright because everybody's ugly
in Elden Ring, and I will fight,fight, fight, fight to be
gorgeous in every video game Iever play.
Yeah, yeah.
And I was just like, I'm noteven gonna get to rune level
five on this character because Ihave 90 minutes to stream.
(11:54):
So can I just throw this outthere?
SPEAKER_02 (11:57):
A, why don't you one not customize the character
because you're gonna be coveredin armor?
One, two, I challenge you to notbe a magic character on your
playthrough.
SPEAKER_03 (12:14):
I can't be hideous anime lay character.
You gotta choose.
Those are two ridiculous thingsto ask me to do, Marcus.
By the way, I saw you finishElden Ring.
I saw what you were doing withthat Moon Veil Katana, and your
idea that you were not a magicuser is a lie that lets you go
to sleep at night.
You are so heavy into thatwisdom life.
SPEAKER_02 (12:34):
Yes, I am.
No, no, no, I don't know.
Wisdom intelligence, but mysecond playthrough that I'm
doing on the PS5 is a sword andboard.
SPEAKER_03 (12:44):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (12:45):
Well, I just can't do a range thing, can you?
Mm-mm.
Yeah.
I kind of did though, becausethe moon veil did give me range
because I would get hit.
I I panic roll.
I'm a panic roller.
Yes, you are.
Yes, I am.
Like, I'm not calm when I playvideo games.
You guys should see me trying toparry in Expedition 33.
SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
It's I was just gonna segue into that.
SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
So, how's that boss with the parrying mechanic
going, Marcus?
I died like nine times beforeyou parry once.
Huh?
But you know, but what I'mcircling back now to the point,
I'm so thankful.
Like, I'm thankful for the MMOsthat I've played and I've done,
(13:30):
but the fact that I don't playthem anymore makes my journey
through video games so muchbetter.
Because I don't have that weighton my shoulder to go back and be
like have to grind.
And I can play Expedition 33 andonly play that game or go to
Into Elden Ring and not feellike I'm missing out on
(13:54):
something else.
unknown (13:56):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (13:57):
You know, because my time is super limited.
SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
But the thing is, you still have to grind in in
single player games.
You you grind for runes, yougrind for gear.
Well, yes, in any of the games.
So the grind part is alwaysthere.
SPEAKER_02 (14:12):
Uh what I'm saying is I'm playing one of these top
like this.
Is Expedition 33 is like a gameof my gener like decades for me.
Yeah.
You know, I I've said itforever, right?
Since the beginning of meplaying video games, I'm a
graphical whore.
(14:33):
Like graphics matter to me.
And Expedition 33 is maybe oneof the most beautiful games I've
ever played, and it'sheartbreaking, and you have no
idea what's going on, and thecombat is amazing.
(14:53):
And every time I play that game,I go, we swimming forever.
Yeah.
So, but my point is, I did afight, these Axum things, I
don't even know if they are.
They're like the super bosses.
And this boss like sings, andthis fight, there's like I don't
(15:16):
know, I I want to say it wasrose petals, but I don't
actually know what's flyingaround.
It is the most beautifulexperience I've ever had in a
video game in a boss fight.
And what's nice about this gameis you can enjoy the fight.
Where in Elden Ring, there's noenjoying the fight.
(15:40):
The fight sucks because the bosswants to just annihilate you and
you, it's constant.
Where at least in the turn-basedcombat, you can just sit there
for a minute and go, okay, whatam I gonna do?
Where in Elden Ring, it's like,oh shit, he's attacking again
and again and again and again,again, and again, again, again,
again, like the crucible.
SPEAKER_03 (15:59):
I don't I don't agree, Marcus.
I have a lot of fun with EldenRing boss fights.
SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
But Elden Ring is fun in its own way, but what I'm
saying is is you can't take amoment to appreciate how much
detail is in the Elden Ringfights.
Because you win what's the bossin Elden Ring?
I can't remember the name, it'llprobably come to me in a second,
where they start off as thebeast clergyman and then it
turns into the black blade guy.
(16:29):
Malacheth.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Malacheth, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:31):
Like that room is incredible.
It looks like the old likeItalian, like Leonardo painted
the ceilings, but you can'treally look at it because you're
being attacked in real time.
SPEAKER_03 (16:45):
This is why you stream the game and then you can
pause it and be like, wow,that's beautiful, and I was
dodging so well.
If I no, I don't need anotherperson, I don't need another
prison sentence.
You are always going to prisonin your video game life, Marcus.
Where did this guilt come from?
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (17:03):
He's going to prison in his streaming life.
He's not prison sentence.
He he's but he he has an issuethat he apparently does not have
any love for Kefis anymore, soit's okay.
SPEAKER_03 (17:13):
Yeah, we can do therapy on all of that.
But there's a research alerthere that you just walked into,
Marcus.
I don't know if you know this,but there's this games
researcher named me that did astudy on Final Fantasy XIV that
looked at how differentpersonality types of players
(17:34):
experience psychological flowbased on their preference for
job classes and game mechanicsand things like that.
And the reason I think thatyou're not experiencing these
wonderful fuzzy feelings insidewhen during the Elden Ring boss
fights is because you're not inpsychological flow.
(17:55):
You are anxious and stressed andworried about the outcome, which
is fine because Elden Ring wasdesigned to do that to the
majority of people.
It is designed to be a highlydifficult game.
SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
But those of us listening, we're all nodding our
heads.
SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
Yeah, we're all, yeah, because it's all it's all
science, it's all correct.
None of this is my opinion.
I just discovered the data toprove it.
So the the situation with EldenRing is it's designed to stress
you out, but there is a level ofperformance you could get to
where you balance your skillwith the challenge of the game,
(18:30):
and you stop panic rolling.
I think that that's the keyreason you're not feeling this,
Marcus, is because that's you.
I mean, I'm not no shade.
It's your it's your number onemove is the panic roll.
So so you're not gonnaexperience psychological flow in
an Elden Ring fight.
But me standing 45 meters awayfrom the boss and throwing
(18:52):
meteor rocks at it, I can lookat how pretty the stained glass
windows are and stuff.
So, you know, because time canslow down, your awareness merges
with the game experience, you'reconcentrating on a task, but you
have those little breathers inbetween spells because the
casting of the spell is acertain number of seconds, so
(19:12):
you get your brain into a grooveof press the button, watch it
happen, press the button, watchit happen.
And so you can experiencepsychological flow in Elden
Ring, but the way you engage thecombat and the specific type of
boss and how they plan todevastate you is going to affect
(19:32):
those nine features of the flowstate from being possible or
impossible.
And that was our researchmoment.
We got a research moment on theshow!
SPEAKER_01 (19:43):
All right, well, so so let me ask you a follow-up
question to that then.
So you've been talking about thethe flow state in a live game,
not necessarily a turn-basedgame.
So when you look at things likeuh Expedition 33 or the Persona
series, where you have thatpause in action combat, does the
(20:06):
flow state still mean the same?
SPEAKER_03 (20:10):
I don't think I experience flow state in persona
because it is straight upturn-based, but Expedition 33
does have it because of Perryand Dodge mechanics, and so
really the key thing is yourperformance have has to match
the rhythm of the action.
So that way you merge mentallywith the activity, the awareness
(20:34):
of time fades into thebackground of your
consciousness, not theforeground.
And you just are the action.
It's called an autotelicexperience.
Is it's not about pressure, it'snot about wanting a reward, it's
not about avoiding punishment,it's just I am this right now.
(20:58):
Like your purpose in thatmoment, it's not even a
conscious awareness, it's justyou have merged with the battle
itself.
Maybe maybe I love this.
(21:19):
I love this thinking look thatI've given you, Marcus.
It's like my own.
SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
It's maybe because like when I Elden Ring is a game
for me that I set out a goalbecause not me.
For me to beat that game, thatwas a milestone, and I got okay
at it and I started tounderstand the mechanics, but
what I'm saying is Elden Ringdidn't let me like the parts of
(21:45):
Elden Ring I enjoyed thegraphics, is when I got to the
top of Mount Gilmere, and you'relooking around, going, Whoa,
this game is huge! Or when youwent to Learnia of the Lakes for
the first time and you're like,Holy shit, I'm a far way away
from the end of this game.
You know what I mean?
(22:05):
And that was for me, theexploration was the completion
of my flow state.
Because in the exploration,that's when you're free, and you
I don't want to say you don'thave any stress because you can
roll up on a boss and go, uh-oh.
Like the first time you roll upon a rune bear and you're like,
(22:25):
oh shit, what just happened?
But in Expedition 33, whenyou're in the exploration phase,
you choose when you want tofight something, it just doesn't
come to you and attack.
So you can truly just swimthrough the car continent or run
(22:46):
the lands and not have to fightanybody because you can avoid
most of the enemies if you wantto.
And when you get in a fight, youcan enjoy the visuals because
you do have that break, like youmentioned.
Because the boss, I hit theboss, and now it's the time.
Yes, I can dodge and parry, butthen after the boss is turns
(23:09):
over, I could sit there for 20minutes and plot and scheme on
what I want to do.
Like, I don't think there's atime limit.
They just let you sit there aslong as you need.
And for me, it's it's a calmingeffect because you get hit seven
times because you're terrible atparrying or whatever, or you get
(23:31):
one shot by a boss.
And even though you get one shotand you do the fight again, you
still get that break, like, ohshit, I just lost one of my
characters.
Okay, what do I have to do now?
And you have that that moment tothink about it versus in Elden
Ring, there's zero, like yourreaction, it's they turn on,
(23:52):
it's all gas, no breaks.
SPEAKER_03 (23:55):
I want to just I want to preface what you're
describing as flow, you know,linking it to the exploration
state.
This is a challenge for mebecause, in terms of gaming
motivation, exploration doesvery little for me.
You've seen my chart, it's noton my radar.
I could care less aboutexploring things, I care about
(24:16):
other things, and that's fine.
You like looking at the worldbecause that's where the
graphics draw you in and showyou what the game devs have
given you to work with.
The games that actually generatepsychological flow the easiest
are games like Dance DanceRevolution, Guitar Hero, Rock
Band, Tetris, games where it'snot necessarily slow, it's just
(24:42):
the challenge is constant, andyour mind has to mentally rise
to the challenge, merge with theexistence in the game, your
concentration fades into lowerawareness of time, and you have
a sense of control.
So when you get to those fightsin Expedition 33 where you have
(25:04):
to parry eight things in a row,and the rhythm is like duh duh
duh rest, rest, rest, duh, duhduh, and that's eight, and then
you finally get yourcounterattack.
If you can slow your mind downenough to just feel that with a
little bit of input in your eyeswith the game, but also knowing
(25:26):
every little twitch of theanimation in that enemy
character without thinking aboutit, that's control, that's loss
of consciousness, that's thefeedback of that little sound
effect that your parry wassuccessful.
It can take your brain fromstruggle to this Nirvana-esque
(25:48):
experience.
And without the parry mechanic,Expedition 33 is not that great
of a psychological flow example.
But with it, that's one of thebiggest reasons it's a near
perfect turn-based RPG, becauseit gives you the chance to have
(26:10):
a total flow state, despite thegame genre being a genre that
usually doesn't approach flow atall, because it is highly
challenging, but it delivers thechallenge in a way that all nine
of those flow state experiencesare present in every encounter.
Can't my flow state be differentthan your flow state?
(26:32):
No, that's not how scienceworks, Marcus.
What you're describing isrelaxation or mindfulness or
some kind of something else.
SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
Maybe that's science again.
No, I don't pretend to know, butI feel like as I'm playing the
game and as I'm in the fight, Iget into the flow and the rhythm
of the fight, and it brings meto peace.
SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
Right, but that but the but you're in a fight.
There, there is, and that'sexactly what Doc's saying.
But when you're out exploringthe world, that not that's not
necessarily a flow state.
It is a mindfulness, it'scalming, it's it's a relaxing
state of I'm appreciating allthis, but you're not necessarily
having to do reaction time-basedinteractions where now all of a
(27:23):
sudden you're justsubconsciously doing you, you
you just see it, feel it, andyou're just doing the thing.
That's that's the whole point ofthe flow state.
SPEAKER_03 (27:32):
It takes a lot of practice and struggle on these
things in order to evenexperience a true total flow
state.
What I'm describing is takingthe concept of flow, but
actually breaking it into ninedifferent elements, you need all
those elements in order toassemble flow, like like a
megazord, right?
Like you can have pieces of itand you can be like, I'm almost
(27:56):
there, almost there, almostthere.
But if you're consciouslythinking about how close you are
to feeling this, you're notthere.
You know, in in a lot of thevideo games that I enjoy that
are hack and slash games, theBatman Arkham games, the
original God of War games,Kingdom Hearts, when you're
(28:16):
swarmed by hundreds and hundredsof Heartless in all different
directions, you get to a pointwhere no matter what enemies are
on that battlefield, thebattlefield is your home, right?
When you're really, really good,you just are reacting without
thought.
It's just instinct.
That's what the flow state is.
(28:39):
If you're if you're doing anexploration kind of thing and
there's a climbing mechanic or aparkour mechanic or platforming,
you can totally have this too,because you're reacting without
thought to the challenge of theenvironment.
But you know, Breath of the Wildis you can definitely see it
(29:00):
when you're looking at Instagramreels or TikToks of people that
have mastered what you can do inTears of the Kingdom, where they
just create all these differentmachines, they swap in and out
of weapons, they do bullet timeon their bow and arrow and have
bombs that are just going 500feet in an arc into the air and
(29:20):
falling down 12 seconds laterand blowing up something, and
then they just are right thereto capitalize on that punish
attack, right?
Like all those, all those littlethings combining into one
10-second sequence of perfectedcombat.
That's what psychological flowis.
(29:42):
It takes a lot of struggle andtinkering and getting it wrong
in order to become good enoughto actually experience that.
What I'm describing in my owngameplay is just pieces of that,
like getting closer to it.
It's hard to Explain becauseeven if you've never experienced
(30:03):
that, you've experiencedsomething that feels close.
SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:12):
I just don't know the words on how I feel.
Enlightened.
No, no.
Con uh conflict conflict.
There is no conflict.
But you know, coming to this,right?
Have you guys ever loved a game?
(30:34):
The whole game.
And then it just got ruinedbecause the ending was terrible.
Doesn't mean you didn't love thegame, but the ending was just
like I did all this for this.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Yeah.
It happens.
I I mean that's why I mean Ijust it did Andromeda, and so
that's the way I feel about thatone.
I think other games that I'vegone through that have had the
same Star Wars The Old Republic?
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
The first time because it's an MMO.
Well, so a non-MMO playerplaying it for the first time,
Jada Sith Marauder story,greatest story in the game.
Darth Barris is a jerk.
True.
When I finish the story for thefirst time and it just ended,
(31:27):
and you end up on the ship, andit's like, okay, now what?
Kind of a thing.
And I didn't understand MMOlogic.
Like, hey, go do the thing now.
I was lost.
I was like, all right, this isstupid.
And Elden Ring, same thing.
(31:49):
I played a hundred and somethinghours, and I got my moon, my
moon ring, and I married my moonlady.
And it was like thir sixseconds, and the story was over,
and I was like, wait, that's it?
I just did all this, and I justgot to hold her hand and say, I
do.
SPEAKER_04 (32:10):
That's the best ending, Marcus.
SPEAKER_03 (32:12):
I will not have you slander our lady Rani on our
show.
That is ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02 (32:18):
Dude, I will never slander Rani.
She just hangs out here with me.
SPEAKER_03 (32:24):
She's so beautiful.
Okay.
Oddly enough, I've been thinkingabout this all day, and I had to
Google worst.
SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
When you thought about it, didn't involve did it
involve a book named The Gamer'sJourney?
SPEAKER_03 (32:42):
No, because I didn't talk about bad games in The
Gamer's Journey.
I had to Google just now theworst video game endings of all
time.
Ooh.
And and I wanted to see if anyof the games I've finished are
on there because I don'tcategorize games in my mind this
way.
But we've already talked aboutone of them on this episode, and
(33:06):
I'm gonna go back to it.
Batman, Arkham Asylum, and Itotally agree, the game itself
is a masterpiece.
The final boss is the dumbestthing they could have possibly
come up with.
It sounds like because of that,yeah.
I mean, because of that, beatingthe final boss, it does directly
(33:29):
set up for Arkham City tohappen, and I like Arkham City,
so that's okay.
It's just it's got such a vibethe whole game, and then the
final boss is like, really,that's gonna be how Batman
solves this problem is defeatingthat.
(33:52):
I I just I agree that that's it.
They also on this list put MassEffect 3, but I wouldn't know
anything about that.
I do.
SPEAKER_02 (34:00):
Doritos, I I got a lot to say on that one.
I agree for it.
Go ahead.
So you it's really hard.
Did you guys ever watch the showThe Sopranos?
I did not.
Okay, Doritos?
A little bit.
Okay, so you didn't watch thewhole series.
When you have a series, a TVshow, or the most epic trilogy
(34:22):
ever, it's really hard to end itin a positive way.
Or what's that show, thatmedieval show that everybody was
crazy about on HBO?
Game of Game of Dogs.
Game of Dogs.
Game of Thrones.
Do you guys watch that?
(34:42):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
Game of Thrones?
Yeah.
Yes, that's like my entirepersonality.
SPEAKER_02 (34:47):
Okay, that whole last season was terrible.
No way.
I loved it.
Okay, you're just a positive,positive Pete over here.
But no, so the point is you hadthis epic first game, and it was
like leaning towards the badguy, and you like heard in the
background like the Reapers.
(35:09):
The Reapers.
unknown (35:11):
Shh.
SPEAKER_02 (35:12):
In the second game, you start to see and understand
what the Reapers are.
So like it's building.
Then in Mass Effect 3, fuck theReapers are here.
Oh my god.
I remember when they landed forthe first time, I screamed at
the top of my lungs because Iwas like, oh shit, it's going
(35:32):
down.
We're yelling timber, and it'slike, you better move, right?
SPEAKER_04 (35:38):
Did you just do a catch up reference?
I love this episode.
SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
So my point is, and then you get to the end of the
game and it ends, and I waslike, okay, it's over.
Ugh.
But I think it's one of thosethings where when it's around,
(36:05):
you you when they you have atrilogy of games, and then you
have books and coming out, andif you're reading those and
comic books, you're expect youlike in your head, you plan out
the ending the way you would seeit, and then you get the ending
the way Bioware saw it, andyou're like, okay, that was
(36:27):
okay.
So my point is, it's really hardto end something so epic and
have it be loved by all.
I should play it again.
Believe it or not, maybe after Ifinish Claire Obscure, I will go
back and play the whole seriesbecause it's that good, but I
it's been so long since Ifinished Mass Effect 3.
(36:52):
But I do remember beingdisappointed.
SPEAKER_03 (36:56):
The comment I read is actually that an entire
series where your choices matterends in a way that your choices
don't.
Is that true?
SPEAKER_01 (37:07):
I mean, I mean it's the the ending is still your
choice to make.
unknown (37:13):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (37:13):
You have an A or B option, so you still have a
choice to make.
Now, the decisions you've madethrough the the first two games
and up to you know through theclimax of the third game don't
seem as relevant to thegameplay, but it is more
(37:38):
relevant to your character'spersonality.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (37:44):
Well, because we love Bioware so much on this
show, I think we need to givethem a hard time again because
there's another game that Icompletely agree.
I love playing it, but theending was just like uh Star
Wars Knights of the Old Republic2 was one of those games.
SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
Actually, I know a lot about this.
That is corporate greed.
So that is not Bioware's fault,it's EA's fault.
So when they made the game, thatthe first one, Knights of the
Old Republic one, was such a hitthey said make number two.
So they did, and they werehalfway through development, or
(38:26):
they were done with developingthe game, but it needed to be
fixed, and it wasn't completed.
And EA said, send it.
We need to make money, print it,and it's over.
And now with technology the wayit is, and mods and everything,
people have modded an actualending to the game.
So if you have that game, youcan actually mod your game and
(38:49):
get a re the real ending as itwas tended to intended to be.
SPEAKER_03 (38:54):
Yeah, I mean, I just remember as a college student, I
went and got that game.
I beat it a couple days after itcame out, and I just remember I
loved it.
It had so many upgrades todifferent things compared to the
first quality of life game.
Quality of life was amazing.
And then the ending just didn'thit right.
(39:16):
And I don't think it was becauseof the characters, I just think
it was because the final battlewas like this this mediocre,
like it didn't imply anythingthat was as epic as the rest of
the story felt.
SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
Nope.
SPEAKER_03 (39:33):
You know, it's really hard to follow a story
that gives us Darth Revan.
You know, that's that's a thingthat changed Star Wars, and it's
not even part of the movies.
So you know, it's really weird.
You know, the two games Icontributed to this conversation
are games that I still love,despite the ending giving me
(39:56):
really powerful meh feelings.
What other ones?
Well, they also listed some Halogames in there.
They listed you know, I I justlists like this are all come
down to opinion.
I I I have one that's personallyfor me, but it's not really the
(40:18):
ending, it's just a choice thedevs made.
And Mortal Kombat is on thefront of my mind this week
because the legacy collectioncame out.
It's out, and what it is, yeah.
And one of the games that'sincluded is Mortal Kombat
Mythology Sub-Zero.
I love that game.
It gives a story to one of myfavorite combatants.
(40:39):
And when I was 12 or whateverage I was when it came out, I
played on the easiestdifficulty, and you got halfway
No, not free.
You I played on the lowestdifficulty, and halfway through
the game, the game just ends.
And if you want the second halfof the game and also the real
(41:00):
ending, you have to play on aharder difficulty.
And that just felt kind of cheapto me.
So I did.
I played, I played on the harderdifficulty, and I was able to
get the ending, and everythingwas right with the world.
So that was that was aninteresting life lesson for me
that was given to me by MortalKombat.
SPEAKER_02 (41:24):
I can't find it.
It's weird.
SPEAKER_03 (41:30):
I bought it on PS5.
A lot of people are upset withthe online connectivity right
now, so PlayStation's actuallyissuing refunds.
SPEAKER_02 (41:43):
Like, yeah, I can't even find it.
Like, Mortal Kombat's not evenon Steam.
Like, I can't, like, find it.
That's weird.
Anyway.
That's interesting.
Have you guys played ArcRaiders?
Nope.
(42:03):
That just came out of the whatis it?
Yeah, it's like uh extractionshooter game.
Supposedly it's crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (42:12):
Yeah, they tried, I think they tried to add some
more mechanics where you're moreof a android, so in addition to
your weapons, you can mod outyour android with different
arms, legs, torso, head.
So it's like customization.
(42:33):
Trait trait customization.
Okay.
I think it's what they're goingfor.
I haven't even looked into it,so I'm going on an presumption.
SPEAKER_03 (42:48):
There's just so many games to play.
It's it is crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (42:55):
Legit.
Did Mortal Kombat get taken offof Steam?
I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (43:05):
Streaming It was having a lot of problems and
people were getting No, I justtyped in Mortal Mortal, and it
shows up number one in my searchresults, Marcus.
SPEAKER_02 (43:16):
Do I have like Yeah, not mine?
Foolish mortals is the firstthing that pops up.
SPEAKER_03 (43:25):
I'm in the app right now.
See?
SPEAKER_02 (43:28):
Right there.
I don't know.
It's fine.
SPEAKER_03 (43:30):
$50.
SPEAKER_02 (43:33):
That's really weird, dude.
Do I have like setting on?
Either way.
Sorry.
Well, you know, I believe that,yes, I'm gonna go back to what
you said about games.
You have people have opinions.
It's an opinion-based thing ifyou're disappointed in a game.
But when there's a mass amountof people that feel the same
(43:54):
way, it's hard to not justifythat that said game has a bad
ending or a disappointingending.
I shouldn't say it's a badending, it's it's disappointing.
SPEAKER_03 (44:06):
When a mass amount of people have a shared
perspective, it has a powerfuleffect.
Hence a mass effect.
Oh god.
SPEAKER_04 (44:17):
You're welcome, everybody.
SPEAKER_03 (44:19):
Oi, oi, oi.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:23):
Yep.
I I I I got nothing.
SPEAKER_03 (44:29):
Well, you don't have Mortal Kombat.
No, I'm trying to I found mystore page.
SPEAKER_02 (44:36):
Okay, I found the store page for Mortal Kombat 1.
SPEAKER_03 (44:42):
I really don't understand why you can't find
it.
That's so weird.
SPEAKER_02 (44:47):
Yeah, like I it's literally I'm in E.
What is it?
WB Games, Warner Brother Games,and I there is no Mortal Kombat
game showing on my list.
What if you just search from themain store?
(45:10):
It's no no no.
There's no Mortal Kombat on mySteam.
SPEAKER_01 (45:16):
I have Mortal Kombat.
I just Googled it on my mobileand I got Mortal Kombat Legacy
Collection, 50 bucks.
That's it.
SPEAKER_02 (45:22):
No, no, no.
I'm not I'm not I'm just tellingyou, I can't.
That's really weird.
Is there like how do I check tosee if I have it right?
Yeah.
Where's my settings?
(45:43):
Store.
Mature content.
SPEAKER_03 (45:56):
This whole store thing completely ruins the
psychological flow.
That's all right.
SPEAKER_01 (46:05):
This was giving Marcus an awesome challenge to
figure out why he can't find thething.
SPEAKER_03 (46:10):
But it's always about a balance between
challenge and skill.
SPEAKER_02 (46:20):
Continue the journey.
A lot to say.
It's gonna start with Once Upona Time or No, I was thinking
once this one time at Bandcamp.
SPEAKER_03 (00:09):
A long time ago.
SPEAKER_02 (00:16):
So you know when you instantly have a connection with
somebody?
Right?
Yeah.
It's instant.
Right, sure.
So my new job, I went to theoffice in Boston this week for a
meeting with the team, and I meta bunch of the team members.
Come to find out, one of theguys, guess what his favorite
(00:38):
game is?
Mass Effect 2.
Boom.
SPEAKER_03 (00:43):
I thought it was gonna say Destiny.
I was gonna say Star Wars, theold Republic.
SPEAKER_02 (00:49):
This is why we all have different personality
types.
But when I found that out, likethe whole world opened up for me
and this guy.
And then like I like I've neverhad a corporate job before, like
a real like kind of one wherethey're like talk corporate
speak.
And this guy messages me todaywith yo, what's good, brother?
(01:10):
And I'm like, all right, thisguy's my guy.
Like, this is the guy I'm gonnatalk to all the time.
You know what I mean?
Kind of a thing.
But it made me think becauseDoritos sent a message earlier
this week that he beat a game.
I did.
I'll say that this afternoon.
No, last night?
Last night.
Oh, wow.
See, I don't even know what dayit is anymore.
SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
Well, today is the I don't know what day it is
either, but please tell us allabout it, Doritos.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
No, I I I finished off Mass Effect Andromeda.
Um like I said in our littlegroup message, it it's you know,
I'm I I've got it done, checkthe box, it's it's finished, but
it was unsatisfactory.
I didn't get a lot of conclusionbecause you you don't actually
(02:03):
kill the final encounter.
You know that the antagonistorganization still exists, and
they've set it up for sequels,and you your your personal story
(02:26):
isn't well concluded.
Now they did put an epilogue inthere, but even then it's it was
felt rushed, so it's like andlet's hurry up.
It's the whole the okayproduction, you're here.
We need to sh get this gamewrapped up and shipped by X
date.
Hurry up and conclude just thisthing so we can put a bow on it,
(02:48):
test it, and get it out thedoor.
And that's what it felt like.
SPEAKER_02 (02:53):
Did the game feel like I have so many questions?
Did the game feel like MassEffect to you?
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
Sort of they put a lot of energy into the system
exploration.
Now, you don't like in MassEffect one and two, where you
actually go onto the planet andand look for resources.
Well, and one you do that, two,you just scan the planet.
Right, two, two, that's right,two, you scan.
It had that sort of mechanic,but you didn't do that kind of
(03:27):
scan.
That that kind of scanning wasactually on the handful of
planets you actually had uhquest lines on.
But the scanning of the systems,I mean, again, the it was good
concept art of okay, if you hadto create what the Andromeda
Galaxy looked like in thevarious systems, it was good,
and how you were able to travelthrough was okay.
(03:52):
But again, it that that was thatwas definitely part of where
they put a lot of energy in wassome of the world creation and
system creations.
SPEAKER_02 (04:02):
What about the dialogue?
See, I like I said, I gotthrough 20 minutes of it and I
shut it off.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
The dialogue for the game was good conceptually, it's
a good way to take it, but youknow, it's not the whole you're
you're trying to do two things.
You're trying to establish thethe human colonies and stuff,
and and another race coloniesfrom Mass Effect.
(04:30):
So you got the Asari, theKrogan, the the Solarian, and
everybody's trying to establishthe their home world, but you
have this imagine this anancient technology race that is
scattered throughout the galaxythat you have to go uncover and
determine how they were doingstuff.
(04:51):
Then you have this otherclandestine antagonist group
that is trying to overthrow andcontrol that technology.
Oh wow.
So again, it's very similar towhat you've played already in
all your Mass Effects, justthere's not as it's very heavy
(05:14):
in the system, the the moregeopolitical system building
than the terraforming.
SPEAKER_03 (05:25):
Okay.
So the way you're describingthat, Doritos, is like when
someone says, Hey, you know thisperson at work, they're really
fun to hang out with.
So you hang out with them andthey're just weird the whole
night, and you just know thewhole time you're not hanging
out with them ever again.
Right also has ruined yourfriendship with the first person
(05:47):
because it's like, why the heckwould you recommend that to me?
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
Yeah, kinda sorta, yeah.
It was similar to that.
SPEAKER_02 (05:56):
That's an interesting way to put it.
I was just thinking that itsounds to me that this is so the
way I grade games is different,right?
Like I think a mid-game, likemiddle of the road game is a
five and a half or a six, right?
(06:16):
But in the world of reviews, youget a five or a six, it's a
terrible game.
Right, exactly.
Right.
Where like they're like seven isthe base.
If you get a seven, you're doingokay, it's not great.
But like it sounds to me you'rea the Andromeda's a middle of
the road game.
SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
I give it a solid six, maybe six and a half from
on on our on our grading scale.
Yes, you ducks ducks.
I'm giving it a three.
I'm giving it to play.
Doc saying he wants to play MassEffect three.
He's holding three fingers, hewants to play Mass Effect 3.
Doc's never play Mass Effect 3.
So, I mean, I I'm glad I playedthrough it.
(06:57):
And you know, I may go back anddo another playthrough later,
but it's not gonna be anytimesoon.
SPEAKER_02 (07:03):
I'm gonna throw it out there that you're never
playing that game again, andthat's A-O-K.
Yeah, it's possible.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Yeah, I've moved it over into the games I've
completed at least once pile.
Yeah.
So what's the next venture?
I have no idea.
Ooh, Claire Obscure Expedition33.
It's on the list.
I just have to download it.
Uh, it's so I might try to gothrough the throw go through
Hollow Knight one because I knowmy son started playing it
(07:30):
because I've already got it andgot it downloaded.
I got the Batman Arkham seriesto go through.
I haven't ever I didn't evendownload those yet.
So good.
SPEAKER_03 (07:39):
I Platinum Trophied the first two.
Like Arkham City is one of myfavorite games of all time.
I've never played them.
SPEAKER_04 (07:51):
So I've got the Do you like Batman, Marcus?
SPEAKER_03 (07:54):
I'm Batman.
Well, you gotta play him.
SPEAKER_02 (07:57):
Like they're just Marcus nothing.
Okay, so I'm gonna talk.
I'm gonna going sidebar.
This is why MMOs ruin gamers.
Greed.
Okay, so what I mean by that isnot the social side of it or
like going outside and touchinggrass.
I'm not saying that.
What I'm saying is I was stuckin the Star Wars old, the old
(08:20):
republic warp for so long that Ididn't play all of these games
that were so good because I wasplaying Star Wars.
And and I was at a like amindset that if I stopped to
play any other game, I I I couldbe doing flashpoints, I could be
(08:42):
grinding levels, I could begetting gear.
I need gear, gear, gear.
And I never I never played, I'vemissed out on so many games
because of MMOs.
Like I think about it now.
I'm playing maybe single, well,probably like top five game top
(09:07):
four games for me of all time.
And I would have never playedthis if I was in an MMO.
SPEAKER_03 (09:18):
That's a real thing.
And on that topic, I chose tostream Final Fantasy XIV this
morning.
Yeah, I broke the Fortnitestreak.
SPEAKER_02 (09:31):
Is it because you're not interested in Fortnite?
Is it because you're like burntout on it?
Is it because that you justneeded a change?
SPEAKER_03 (09:41):
What was the reason?
There's story content that isnow old and I haven't done it on
my main character.
And I had a couple differentplans in my head, and Dream Labs
has a really funky system forgoing live when you're streaming
(10:03):
to multiple places, and YouTubewould not take my stream title
for multiple tries, so everytime I just tried a different
game, and the time that wentthrough was Final Fantasy XIV.
I actually typed a stream titlethis morning for Fortnite, and I
(10:24):
typed one for Persona 3, andthen I typed one for Final
Fantasy XIV and it went through.
Just quirky stuff, but I hadthis other thing in my head that
I thought would be fun.
I've only ever completed EldenRing on the PC version, and as
(10:45):
people who listened to the showover a hundred episodes ago, I
started Elden Ring originally asa PS5 game, and I switched
because I wanted to have theextra monitor right there and be
able to look things up and playmostly in solitude, not in my
living room, and be kind of gamethat I need to be able to look
(11:08):
stuff up while I'm playing it.
But as a result, some of my bestElden Ring memories have no
video footage, nothing I canedit together for YouTube stuff,
and it's it doesn't feel likeit's part of my Twitch journey.
So I downloaded Elden Ring onthe PS5, it's right there, and I
almost went live playing that,but I know that I'll spend about
(11:33):
an hour trying to get the faceright because everybody's ugly
in Elden Ring, and I will fight,fight, fight, fight to be
gorgeous in every video game Iever play.
Yeah, yeah.
And I was just like, I'm noteven gonna get to rune level
five on this character because Ihave 90 minutes to stream.
(11:54):
So can I just throw this outthere?
SPEAKER_02 (11:57):
A, why don't you one not customize the character
because you're gonna be coveredin armor?
One, two, I challenge you to notbe a magic character on your
playthrough.
SPEAKER_03 (12:14):
I can't be hideous anime lay character.
You gotta choose.
Those are two ridiculous thingsto ask me to do, Marcus.
By the way, I saw you finishElden Ring.
I saw what you were doing withthat Moon Veil Katana, and your
idea that you were not a magicuser is a lie that lets you go
to sleep at night.
You are so heavy into thatwisdom life.
SPEAKER_02 (12:34):
Yes, I am.
No, no, no, I don't know.
Wisdom intelligence, but mysecond playthrough that I'm
doing on the PS5 is a sword andboard.
SPEAKER_03 (12:44):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (12:45):
Well, I just can't do a range thing, can you?
Mm-mm.
Yeah.
I kind of did though, becausethe moon veil did give me range
because I would get hit.
I I panic roll.
I'm a panic roller.
Yes, you are.
Yes, I am.
Like, I'm not calm when I playvideo games.
You guys should see me trying toparry in Expedition 33.
SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
It's I was just gonna segue into that.
SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
So, how's that boss with the parrying mechanic
going, Marcus?
I died like nine times beforeyou parry once.
Huh?
But you know, but what I'mcircling back now to the point,
I'm so thankful.
Like, I'm thankful for the MMOsthat I've played and I've done,
(13:30):
but the fact that I don't playthem anymore makes my journey
through video games so muchbetter.
Because I don't have that weighton my shoulder to go back and be
like have to grind.
And I can play Expedition 33 andonly play that game or go to
Into Elden Ring and not feellike I'm missing out on
(13:54):
something else.
unknown (13:56):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (13:57):
You know, because my time is super limited.
SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
But the thing is, you still have to grind in in
single player games.
You you grind for runes, yougrind for gear.
Well, yes, in any of the games.
So the grind part is alwaysthere.
SPEAKER_02 (14:12):
Uh what I'm saying is I'm playing one of these top
like this.
Is Expedition 33 is like a gameof my gener like decades for me.
Yeah.
You know, I I've said itforever, right?
Since the beginning of meplaying video games, I'm a
graphical whore.
(14:33):
Like graphics matter to me.
And Expedition 33 is maybe oneof the most beautiful games I've
ever played, and it'sheartbreaking, and you have no
idea what's going on, and thecombat is amazing.
(14:53):
And every time I play that game,I go, we swimming forever.
Yeah.
So, but my point is, I did afight, these Axum things, I
don't even know if they are.
They're like the super bosses.
And this boss like sings, andthis fight, there's like I don't
(15:16):
know, I I want to say it wasrose petals, but I don't
actually know what's flyingaround.
It is the most beautifulexperience I've ever had in a
video game in a boss fight.
And what's nice about this gameis you can enjoy the fight.
Where in Elden Ring, there's noenjoying the fight.
(15:40):
The fight sucks because the bosswants to just annihilate you and
you, it's constant.
Where at least in the turn-basedcombat, you can just sit there
for a minute and go, okay, whatam I gonna do?
Where in Elden Ring, it's like,oh shit, he's attacking again
and again and again and again,again, and again, again, again,
again, like the crucible.
SPEAKER_03 (15:59):
I don't I don't agree, Marcus.
I have a lot of fun with EldenRing boss fights.
SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
But Elden Ring is fun in its own way, but what I'm
saying is is you can't take amoment to appreciate how much
detail is in the Elden Ringfights.
Because you win what's the bossin Elden Ring?
I can't remember the name, it'llprobably come to me in a second,
where they start off as thebeast clergyman and then it
turns into the black blade guy.
(16:29):
Malacheth.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Malacheth, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:31):
Like that room is incredible.
It looks like the old likeItalian, like Leonardo painted
the ceilings, but you can'treally look at it because you're
being attacked in real time.
SPEAKER_03 (16:45):
This is why you stream the game and then you can
pause it and be like, wow,that's beautiful, and I was
dodging so well.
If I no, I don't need anotherperson, I don't need another
prison sentence.
You are always going to prisonin your video game life, Marcus.
Where did this guilt come from?
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (17:03):
He's going to prison in his streaming life.
He's not prison sentence.
He he's but he he has an issuethat he apparently does not have
any love for Kefis anymore, soit's okay.
SPEAKER_03 (17:13):
Yeah, we can do therapy on all of that.
But there's a research alerthere that you just walked into,
Marcus.
I don't know if you know this,but there's this games
researcher named me that did astudy on Final Fantasy XIV that
looked at how differentpersonality types of players
(17:34):
experience psychological flowbased on their preference for
job classes and game mechanicsand things like that.
And the reason I think thatyou're not experiencing these
wonderful fuzzy feelings insidewhen during the Elden Ring boss
fights is because you're not inpsychological flow.
(17:55):
You are anxious and stressed andworried about the outcome, which
is fine because Elden Ring wasdesigned to do that to the
majority of people.
It is designed to be a highlydifficult game.
SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
But those of us listening, we're all nodding our
heads.
SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
Yeah, we're all, yeah, because it's all it's all
science, it's all correct.
None of this is my opinion.
I just discovered the data toprove it.
So the the situation with EldenRing is it's designed to stress
you out, but there is a level ofperformance you could get to
where you balance your skillwith the challenge of the game,
(18:30):
and you stop panic rolling.
I think that that's the keyreason you're not feeling this,
Marcus, is because that's you.
I mean, I'm not no shade.
It's your it's your number onemove is the panic roll.
So so you're not gonnaexperience psychological flow in
an Elden Ring fight.
But me standing 45 meters awayfrom the boss and throwing
(18:52):
meteor rocks at it, I can lookat how pretty the stained glass
windows are and stuff.
So, you know, because time canslow down, your awareness merges
with the game experience, you'reconcentrating on a task, but you
have those little breathers inbetween spells because the
casting of the spell is acertain number of seconds, so
(19:12):
you get your brain into a grooveof press the button, watch it
happen, press the button, watchit happen.
And so you can experiencepsychological flow in Elden
Ring, but the way you engage thecombat and the specific type of
boss and how they plan todevastate you is going to affect
(19:32):
those nine features of the flowstate from being possible or
impossible.
And that was our researchmoment.
We got a research moment on theshow!
SPEAKER_01 (19:43):
All right, well, so so let me ask you a follow-up
question to that then.
So you've been talking about thethe flow state in a live game,
not necessarily a turn-basedgame.
So when you look at things likeuh Expedition 33 or the Persona
series, where you have thatpause in action combat, does the
(20:06):
flow state still mean the same?
SPEAKER_03 (20:10):
I don't think I experience flow state in persona
because it is straight upturn-based, but Expedition 33
does have it because of Perryand Dodge mechanics, and so
really the key thing is yourperformance have has to match
the rhythm of the action.
So that way you merge mentallywith the activity, the awareness
(20:34):
of time fades into thebackground of your
consciousness, not theforeground.
And you just are the action.
It's called an autotelicexperience.
Is it's not about pressure, it'snot about wanting a reward, it's
not about avoiding punishment,it's just I am this right now.
(20:58):
Like your purpose in thatmoment, it's not even a
conscious awareness, it's justyou have merged with the battle
itself.
Maybe maybe I love this.
(21:19):
I love this thinking look thatI've given you, Marcus.
It's like my own.
SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
It's maybe because like when I Elden Ring is a game
for me that I set out a goalbecause not me.
For me to beat that game, thatwas a milestone, and I got okay
at it and I started tounderstand the mechanics, but
what I'm saying is Elden Ringdidn't let me like the parts of
(21:45):
Elden Ring I enjoyed thegraphics, is when I got to the
top of Mount Gilmere, and you'relooking around, going, Whoa,
this game is huge! Or when youwent to Learnia of the Lakes for
the first time and you're like,Holy shit, I'm a far way away
from the end of this game.
You know what I mean?
(22:05):
And that was for me, theexploration was the completion
of my flow state.
Because in the exploration,that's when you're free, and you
I don't want to say you don'thave any stress because you can
roll up on a boss and go, uh-oh.
Like the first time you roll upon a rune bear and you're like,
(22:25):
oh shit, what just happened?
But in Expedition 33, whenyou're in the exploration phase,
you choose when you want tofight something, it just doesn't
come to you and attack.
So you can truly just swimthrough the car continent or run
(22:46):
the lands and not have to fightanybody because you can avoid
most of the enemies if you wantto.
And when you get in a fight, youcan enjoy the visuals because
you do have that break, like youmentioned.
Because the boss, I hit theboss, and now it's the time.
Yes, I can dodge and parry, butthen after the boss is turns
(23:09):
over, I could sit there for 20minutes and plot and scheme on
what I want to do.
Like, I don't think there's atime limit.
They just let you sit there aslong as you need.
And for me, it's it's a calmingeffect because you get hit seven
times because you're terrible atparrying or whatever, or you get
(23:31):
one shot by a boss.
And even though you get one shotand you do the fight again, you
still get that break, like, ohshit, I just lost one of my
characters.
Okay, what do I have to do now?
And you have that that moment tothink about it versus in Elden
Ring, there's zero, like yourreaction, it's they turn on,
(23:52):
it's all gas, no breaks.
SPEAKER_03 (23:55):
I want to just I want to preface what you're
describing as flow, you know,linking it to the exploration
state.
This is a challenge for mebecause, in terms of gaming
motivation, exploration doesvery little for me.
You've seen my chart, it's noton my radar.
I could care less aboutexploring things, I care about
(24:16):
other things, and that's fine.
You like looking at the worldbecause that's where the
graphics draw you in and showyou what the game devs have
given you to work with.
The games that actually generatepsychological flow the easiest
are games like Dance DanceRevolution, Guitar Hero, Rock
Band, Tetris, games where it'snot necessarily slow, it's just
(24:42):
the challenge is constant, andyour mind has to mentally rise
to the challenge, merge with theexistence in the game, your
concentration fades into lowerawareness of time, and you have
a sense of control.
So when you get to those fightsin Expedition 33 where you have
(25:04):
to parry eight things in a row,and the rhythm is like duh duh
duh rest, rest, rest, duh, duhduh, and that's eight, and then
you finally get yourcounterattack.
If you can slow your mind downenough to just feel that with a
little bit of input in your eyeswith the game, but also knowing
(25:26):
every little twitch of theanimation in that enemy
character without thinking aboutit, that's control, that's loss
of consciousness, that's thefeedback of that little sound
effect that your parry wassuccessful.
It can take your brain fromstruggle to this Nirvana-esque
(25:48):
experience.
And without the parry mechanic,Expedition 33 is not that great
of a psychological flow example.
But with it, that's one of thebiggest reasons it's a near
perfect turn-based RPG, becauseit gives you the chance to have
(26:10):
a total flow state, despite thegame genre being a genre that
usually doesn't approach flow atall, because it is highly
challenging, but it delivers thechallenge in a way that all nine
of those flow state experiencesare present in every encounter.
Can't my flow state be differentthan your flow state?
(26:32):
No, that's not how scienceworks, Marcus.
What you're describing isrelaxation or mindfulness or
some kind of something else.
SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
Maybe that's science again.
No, I don't pretend to know, butI feel like as I'm playing the
game and as I'm in the fight, Iget into the flow and the rhythm
of the fight, and it brings meto peace.
SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
Right, but that but the but you're in a fight.
There, there is, and that'sexactly what Doc's saying.
But when you're out exploringthe world, that not that's not
necessarily a flow state.
It is a mindfulness, it'scalming, it's it's a relaxing
state of I'm appreciating allthis, but you're not necessarily
having to do reaction time-basedinteractions where now all of a
(27:23):
sudden you're justsubconsciously doing you, you
you just see it, feel it, andyou're just doing the thing.
That's that's the whole point ofthe flow state.
SPEAKER_03 (27:32):
It takes a lot of practice and struggle on these
things in order to evenexperience a true total flow
state.
What I'm describing is takingthe concept of flow, but
actually breaking it into ninedifferent elements, you need all
those elements in order toassemble flow, like like a
megazord, right?
Like you can have pieces of itand you can be like, I'm almost
(27:56):
there, almost there, almostthere.
But if you're consciouslythinking about how close you are
to feeling this, you're notthere.
You know, in in a lot of thevideo games that I enjoy that
are hack and slash games, theBatman Arkham games, the
original God of War games,Kingdom Hearts, when you're
(28:16):
swarmed by hundreds and hundredsof Heartless in all different
directions, you get to a pointwhere no matter what enemies are
on that battlefield, thebattlefield is your home, right?
When you're really, really good,you just are reacting without
thought.
It's just instinct.
That's what the flow state is.
(28:39):
If you're if you're doing anexploration kind of thing and
there's a climbing mechanic or aparkour mechanic or platforming,
you can totally have this too,because you're reacting without
thought to the challenge of theenvironment.
But you know, Breath of the Wildis you can definitely see it
(29:00):
when you're looking at Instagramreels or TikToks of people that
have mastered what you can do inTears of the Kingdom, where they
just create all these differentmachines, they swap in and out
of weapons, they do bullet timeon their bow and arrow and have
bombs that are just going 500feet in an arc into the air and
(29:20):
falling down 12 seconds laterand blowing up something, and
then they just are right thereto capitalize on that punish
attack, right?
Like all those, all those littlethings combining into one
10-second sequence of perfectedcombat.
That's what psychological flowis.
(29:42):
It takes a lot of struggle andtinkering and getting it wrong
in order to become good enoughto actually experience that.
What I'm describing in my owngameplay is just pieces of that,
like getting closer to it.
It's hard to Explain becauseeven if you've never experienced
(30:03):
that, you've experiencedsomething that feels close.
SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:12):
I just don't know the words on how I feel.
Enlightened.
No, no.
Con uh conflict conflict.
There is no conflict.
But you know, coming to this,right?
Have you guys ever loved a game?
(30:34):
The whole game.
And then it just got ruinedbecause the ending was terrible.
Doesn't mean you didn't love thegame, but the ending was just
like I did all this for this.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Yeah.
It happens.
I I mean that's why I mean Ijust it did Andromeda, and so
that's the way I feel about thatone.
I think other games that I'vegone through that have had the
same Star Wars The Old Republic?
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
The first time because it's an MMO.
Well, so a non-MMO playerplaying it for the first time,
Jada Sith Marauder story,greatest story in the game.
Darth Barris is a jerk.
True.
When I finish the story for thefirst time and it just ended,
(31:27):
and you end up on the ship, andit's like, okay, now what?
Kind of a thing.
And I didn't understand MMOlogic.
Like, hey, go do the thing now.
I was lost.
I was like, all right, this isstupid.
And Elden Ring, same thing.
(31:49):
I played a hundred and somethinghours, and I got my moon, my
moon ring, and I married my moonlady.
And it was like thir sixseconds, and the story was over,
and I was like, wait, that's it?
I just did all this, and I justgot to hold her hand and say, I
do.
SPEAKER_04 (32:10):
That's the best ending, Marcus.
SPEAKER_03 (32:12):
I will not have you slander our lady Rani on our
show.
That is ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02 (32:18):
Dude, I will never slander Rani.
She just hangs out here with me.
SPEAKER_03 (32:24):
She's so beautiful.
Okay.
Oddly enough, I've been thinkingabout this all day, and I had to
Google worst.
SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
When you thought about it, didn't involve did it
involve a book named The Gamer'sJourney?
SPEAKER_03 (32:42):
No, because I didn't talk about bad games in The
Gamer's Journey.
I had to Google just now theworst video game endings of all
time.
Ooh.
And and I wanted to see if anyof the games I've finished are
on there because I don'tcategorize games in my mind this
way.
But we've already talked aboutone of them on this episode, and
(33:06):
I'm gonna go back to it.
Batman, Arkham Asylum, and Itotally agree, the game itself
is a masterpiece.
The final boss is the dumbestthing they could have possibly
come up with.
It sounds like because of that,yeah.
I mean, because of that, beatingthe final boss, it does directly
(33:29):
set up for Arkham City tohappen, and I like Arkham City,
so that's okay.
It's just it's got such a vibethe whole game, and then the
final boss is like, really,that's gonna be how Batman
solves this problem is defeatingthat.
(33:52):
I I just I agree that that's it.
They also on this list put MassEffect 3, but I wouldn't know
anything about that.
I do.
SPEAKER_02 (34:00):
Doritos, I I got a lot to say on that one.
I agree for it.
Go ahead.
So you it's really hard.
Did you guys ever watch the showThe Sopranos?
I did not.
Okay, Doritos?
A little bit.
Okay, so you didn't watch thewhole series.
When you have a series, a TVshow, or the most epic trilogy
(34:22):
ever, it's really hard to end itin a positive way.
Or what's that show, thatmedieval show that everybody was
crazy about on HBO?
Game of Game of Dogs.
Game of Dogs.
Game of Thrones.
Do you guys watch that?
(34:42):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
Game of Thrones?
Yeah.
Yes, that's like my entirepersonality.
SPEAKER_02 (34:47):
Okay, that whole last season was terrible.
No way.
I loved it.
Okay, you're just a positive,positive Pete over here.
But no, so the point is you hadthis epic first game, and it was
like leaning towards the badguy, and you like heard in the
background like the Reapers.
(35:09):
The Reapers.
unknown (35:11):
Shh.
SPEAKER_02 (35:12):
In the second game, you start to see and understand
what the Reapers are.
So like it's building.
Then in Mass Effect 3, fuck theReapers are here.
Oh my god.
I remember when they landed forthe first time, I screamed at
the top of my lungs because Iwas like, oh shit, it's going
(35:32):
down.
We're yelling timber, and it'slike, you better move, right?
SPEAKER_04 (35:38):
Did you just do a catch up reference?
I love this episode.
SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
So my point is, and then you get to the end of the
game and it ends, and I waslike, okay, it's over.
Ugh.
But I think it's one of thosethings where when it's around,
(36:05):
you you when they you have atrilogy of games, and then you
have books and coming out, andif you're reading those and
comic books, you're expect youlike in your head, you plan out
the ending the way you would seeit, and then you get the ending
the way Bioware saw it, andyou're like, okay, that was
(36:27):
okay.
So my point is, it's really hardto end something so epic and
have it be loved by all.
I should play it again.
Believe it or not, maybe after Ifinish Claire Obscure, I will go
back and play the whole seriesbecause it's that good, but I
it's been so long since Ifinished Mass Effect 3.
(36:52):
But I do remember beingdisappointed.
SPEAKER_03 (36:56):
The comment I read is actually that an entire
series where your choices matterends in a way that your choices
don't.
Is that true?
SPEAKER_01 (37:07):
I mean, I mean it's the the ending is still your
choice to make.
unknown (37:13):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (37:13):
You have an A or B option, so you still have a
choice to make.
Now, the decisions you've madethrough the the first two games
and up to you know through theclimax of the third game don't
seem as relevant to thegameplay, but it is more
(37:38):
relevant to your character'spersonality.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (37:44):
Well, because we love Bioware so much on this
show, I think we need to givethem a hard time again because
there's another game that Icompletely agree.
I love playing it, but theending was just like uh Star
Wars Knights of the Old Republic2 was one of those games.
SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
Actually, I know a lot about this.
That is corporate greed.
So that is not Bioware's fault,it's EA's fault.
So when they made the game, thatthe first one, Knights of the
Old Republic one, was such a hitthey said make number two.
So they did, and they werehalfway through development, or
(38:26):
they were done with developingthe game, but it needed to be
fixed, and it wasn't completed.
And EA said, send it.
We need to make money, print it,and it's over.
And now with technology the wayit is, and mods and everything,
people have modded an actualending to the game.
So if you have that game, youcan actually mod your game and
(38:49):
get a re the real ending as itwas tended to intended to be.
SPEAKER_03 (38:54):
Yeah, I mean, I just remember as a college student, I
went and got that game.
I beat it a couple days after itcame out, and I just remember I
loved it.
It had so many upgrades todifferent things compared to the
first quality of life game.
Quality of life was amazing.
And then the ending just didn'thit right.
(39:16):
And I don't think it was becauseof the characters, I just think
it was because the final battlewas like this this mediocre,
like it didn't imply anythingthat was as epic as the rest of
the story felt.
SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
Nope.
SPEAKER_03 (39:33):
You know, it's really hard to follow a story
that gives us Darth Revan.
You know, that's that's a thingthat changed Star Wars, and it's
not even part of the movies.
So you know, it's really weird.
You know, the two games Icontributed to this conversation
are games that I still love,despite the ending giving me
(39:56):
really powerful meh feelings.
What other ones?
Well, they also listed some Halogames in there.
They listed you know, I I justlists like this are all come
down to opinion.
I I I have one that's personallyfor me, but it's not really the
(40:18):
ending, it's just a choice thedevs made.
And Mortal Kombat is on thefront of my mind this week
because the legacy collectioncame out.
It's out, and what it is, yeah.
And one of the games that'sincluded is Mortal Kombat
Mythology Sub-Zero.
I love that game.
It gives a story to one of myfavorite combatants.
(40:39):
And when I was 12 or whateverage I was when it came out, I
played on the easiestdifficulty, and you got halfway
No, not free.
You I played on the lowestdifficulty, and halfway through
the game, the game just ends.
And if you want the second halfof the game and also the real
(41:00):
ending, you have to play on aharder difficulty.
And that just felt kind of cheapto me.
So I did.
I played, I played on the harderdifficulty, and I was able to
get the ending, and everythingwas right with the world.
So that was that was aninteresting life lesson for me
that was given to me by MortalKombat.
SPEAKER_02 (41:24):
I can't find it.
It's weird.
SPEAKER_03 (41:30):
I bought it on PS5.
A lot of people are upset withthe online connectivity right
now, so PlayStation's actuallyissuing refunds.
SPEAKER_02 (41:43):
Like, yeah, I can't even find it.
Like, Mortal Kombat's not evenon Steam.
Like, I can't, like, find it.
That's weird.
Anyway.
That's interesting.
Have you guys played ArcRaiders?
Nope.
(42:03):
That just came out of the whatis it?
Yeah, it's like uh extractionshooter game.
Supposedly it's crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (42:12):
Yeah, they tried, I think they tried to add some
more mechanics where you're moreof a android, so in addition to
your weapons, you can mod outyour android with different
arms, legs, torso, head.
So it's like customization.
(42:33):
Trait trait customization.
Okay.
I think it's what they're goingfor.
I haven't even looked into it,so I'm going on an presumption.
SPEAKER_03 (42:48):
There's just so many games to play.
It's it is crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (42:55):
Legit.
Did Mortal Kombat get taken offof Steam?
I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (43:05):
Streaming It was having a lot of problems and
people were getting No, I justtyped in Mortal Mortal, and it
shows up number one in my searchresults, Marcus.
SPEAKER_02 (43:16):
Do I have like Yeah, not mine?
Foolish mortals is the firstthing that pops up.
SPEAKER_03 (43:25):
I'm in the app right now.
See?
SPEAKER_02 (43:28):
Right there.
I don't know.
It's fine.
SPEAKER_03 (43:30):
$50.
SPEAKER_02 (43:33):
That's really weird, dude.
Do I have like setting on?
Either way.
Sorry.
Well, you know, I believe that,yes, I'm gonna go back to what
you said about games.
You have people have opinions.
It's an opinion-based thing ifyou're disappointed in a game.
But when there's a mass amountof people that feel the same
(43:54):
way, it's hard to not justifythat that said game has a bad
ending or a disappointingending.
I shouldn't say it's a badending, it's it's disappointing.
SPEAKER_03 (44:06):
When a mass amount of people have a shared
perspective, it has a powerfuleffect.
Hence a mass effect.
Oh god.
SPEAKER_04 (44:17):
You're welcome, everybody.
SPEAKER_03 (44:19):
Oi, oi, oi.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:23):
Yep.
I I I I got nothing.
SPEAKER_03 (44:29):
Well, you don't have Mortal Kombat.
No, I'm trying to I found mystore page.
SPEAKER_02 (44:36):
Okay, I found the store page for Mortal Kombat 1.
SPEAKER_03 (44:42):
I really don't understand why you can't find
it.
That's so weird.
SPEAKER_02 (44:47):
Yeah, like I it's literally I'm in E.
What is it?
WB Games, Warner Brother Games,and I there is no Mortal Kombat
game showing on my list.
What if you just search from themain store?
(45:10):
It's no no no.
There's no Mortal Kombat on mySteam.
SPEAKER_01 (45:16):
I have Mortal Kombat.
I just Googled it on my mobileand I got Mortal Kombat Legacy
Collection, 50 bucks.
That's it.
SPEAKER_02 (45:22):
No, no, no.
I'm not I'm not I'm just tellingyou, I can't.
That's really weird.
Is there like how do I check tosee if I have it right?
Yeah.
Where's my settings?
(45:43):
Store.
Mature content.
SPEAKER_03 (45:56):
This whole store thing completely ruins the
psychological flow.
That's all right.
SPEAKER_01 (46:05):
This was giving Marcus an awesome challenge to
figure out why he can't find thething.
SPEAKER_03 (46:10):
But it's always about a balance between
challenge and skill.
SPEAKER_02 (46:20):
Continue the journey.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.