The Science of Scent: How Dogs Find What Hunters Can't

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:34):
you.
Hey, what's going on everybody.
Frank Mastika from the GardenState Outdoorsman Podcast.
I just wanted to hop on herereal quick.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
I accidentally drifted Next time.
Welcome back to the GardenState Outdoorsman presented by
boondock hunting, you know, andthat's why you're you're um your
tagline like jcl no perfect,you don't know what's on there
accidentally drifted my canoebetween a sow and a cub and

(01:02):
she's like charged and like hitsomething hit like the back of
the canoe begging, begging andcrying to go with my grandfather
and go with my father on thesegear drives.

Speaker 4 (01:16):
You know, the last trip over I shot a great cape
buffalo with my bow, chargingthrough the grass and then the
whooping and then you hearwelcome back to the garden state
outdoorsman podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
I'm your host, frank mastica you got the good old
squatch joining old frank asalways, and today, our special
guest is actually matt williams.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
He goes by on the trail, um, yeah, on the trail.
Recovery on instagram.
So, matt, welcome to the showman appreciate you guys having
me thanks welcome yeah, hey, man, it's always a pleasure.
I'm excited about this one.
So, uh, matt, why don't yougive us a little um background
on like yourself, like what youdo, what you hunt?

(01:57):
Just give us a littlebackground on it all right.

Speaker 4 (01:59):
So I mean, basically, you know, mainly just hunt
white tails.
You know, here in jersey, uh,used to travel to maine, still
go out to the midwest every nowand then.
Um, you know, just try to be inthe outdoors as much as I can.
Um, you know, avid bow hunter.
Bow hunting, anything with abow, is my passion.
You know, a competitive 3dshooter and, uh, so if I got a
bow in my hand I'm happy.

(02:19):
And you know, kind of that'swhat kind of got me into this
whole situation.
You know, know, as far as track, and I want to say maybe like
six years ago, a buddy of minehad shot a deer and we, uh, you
know, hired a guy to come in andit kind of intrigued me how the
guy was able to just work rightthrough it and, you know, get
his deer down.
So it was, uh, you know, it'skind of how I got wrapped up in

(02:39):
the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
So no, yeah, that's awesome, man, I was gonna ask
you.
So I'm not the biggest dogperson, not like squash over
there, but, um, I know that Iknow your dog's name is arrow,
but what kind of breed is is she?

Speaker 4 (02:55):
it's a girl right, yeah, she's a female, it's a and
she's a bloodhound black andtan.
Um, they call her like asaddleback because you know the
kind that she has, like it lookslike she has a saddle on her.
You know just from her markings.
But, uh, you know, yeah, she,uh, she came from brownsville,
indiana, from a family out there, and they were, um, her parents
were actual trackers also, soyou know she came from a back, a

(03:17):
strong back line.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
So that's cool no, that's really cool now for
somebody who, who doesn't know,like what makes the bloodhounds
a good tracking dog.

Speaker 4 (03:29):
Well, all dogs really , as far as, let's say, your
labs and your dachshund hounds,barbarian mountain hounds, all
that kind of stuff.
They're all great trackers.
It just depends on how much youwork with them and how you know
how well they can hold a scent.
Now, when it comes to abloodhound, we can get involved
in work that's say, a littleolder or drier conditions.

(03:54):
Sometimes, you know, a lot oftimes you know, yeah, granted, I
get involved.
My tracks are 10 hours old, butyou know I've gotten involved
with tracks that are 40 hoursold, you know.
So, most of the time you knowwhen we're getting involved in
something like thatunfortunately it's it's either
something that we jump the deerand we're coming back to it, or
you know we're more or less onthe line of, uh, doing just
basically a skull recovery atthat point, oh nice yeah so you

(04:19):
know, just her.
Her cold receptors make her thatmuch um diligent to work in
harder situations.
That's all.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Oh, okay, that's real good.
No, cause, like I don't have aslightest clue when it comes to
that, so so I apologize.
That's okay, no problem.
Did you train her yourself, ordo you like?
Do you typically send like dogsaway?
Like, how does that usuallywork?

Speaker 4 (04:43):
So I basically, you know I started reading upon it
from.
There's a book out there calledTracking Wounded Deer by John
Janie, and that's how I kind ofstarted on it and I wasn't
really sure what kind of dog toget.
And I had a lad prior to thisand he was like I was a big duck
hunter when I was younger andyou know he got old and

(05:09):
unfortunately passed away and soI was like didn't really want
to get another dog at the timeand my wife wanted to get a dog.
So she's like if you don't picka dog, I'm just getting
something.
And I'm like, well, you know, Iwant a dog that has a purpose
you know what I mean Likesomething that we have a
companionship for.
So I started reading that bookand I called a guy in New York,
tracker John.
He lives out in the Midwest, hetracks for like big names, you
know the Drury Brothers, leviMorgan, all them kind of people
he's tracked for.
And I didn't know this guy fromAdam and I called him up and I

(05:31):
asked him and he was like well,I do this for a living, I'm a
professional at it and that'swhy I have bloodhounds.
He's like you know, maybe youshould get yourself a German
Shepherd or a lab.
And I'm like, well, the best inthe world, or, respectively,
the best of the United States,has a bloodhound.
Well, that's what I want.
You know, there's a reason forit, you know, and it's all the
things that he tried to steer meaway from.

(05:52):
It's been a hundred percentcorrect.
You know, like the stubbornness, the slobber all over the house
.
I mean, she comes in the houseand you hear a shake.
You just wait for it to hit thewall somewhere.
You gotta find it.
Yeah, it can be a real mess.
My wife's constantly like, youknow, oh, where did that land?
So but that's kind of how I gotinvolved with having a

(06:13):
bloodhound.
So I.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
I got a quick question for you, matt.
I run beagles.
I've had I've been blessed tohave my four girls for a bunch
of years now, okay, and and uh,my one beagle's part, blue tick,
uh, you know, bred in.
Uh, just to get back a littlebit to what you were saying, how
your dog picks up an olderscent and stuff I have.
It's funny because you knowyour dog's characteristics.

(06:38):
So a couple of my beagles willbark on scent if they smell that
rabbit.
It might, it might be, you know, a couple hours old, it may be
a day old.
They'll pick up on it on a dampcondition if it's snowing or
something like that.
My one girl, dolly, and I loveher, she's my lead dog If she
fires off, I know that rabbitwas just there and it's.

(07:01):
I just was trying to compare alittle bit of the similarities,
cause when you said, yeah, mydog can run, you know, pick up
scent 10, 12 hours old, a lot ofpeople get the conception that
if you know, I don't call deersearch right away or somebody
with a dog right away not goingto be able to find my deer, and
I just know from having mybeagles they do read scent

(07:22):
differently.
Each dog reads scentdifferently, but it was really
cool that you brought up thefact that you know you have a
dog that's able to read 10 or 12hours and I've had guys track
deer for me, even though I don'tmiss and mess up no, I'm just
kidding, everybody does.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
No no.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
I had I had a bad instance this year and the deer
made it.
I know he made it, but um, itwas you know the guy told me.
He said you know, I find gutshot recovered deer better than
a deer that's been hit higher orforward or something like that
he's like.
So you know when you're aiminghe goes.
If you aim a little far back,it's not necessarily a bad thing

(08:01):
If you, if you, if you do misshe goes, we'll have a better
recovery rate.
So do you find that true withwith your hound?

Speaker 4 (08:08):
well, let you know, I'll kind of step back a little
bit.
You know you said how like uh,your beagles will kind of like
you know they'll bay when theyget on that scent.
Um, if arrow bays, it's notgood because that means that
means that that deer is likesteps in front of us or we just
kicked him out of a bed orsomething like that.
So what I really look for herin in ours ability is a slow,

(08:31):
steady pace, nose to the groundmost of the time.
Now, with that being said, gutshot deer present a little bit
different dynamic than, let'ssay, a liver hit deer.
Right, because a liver hit deerdoesn't necessarily know that
he's fatally wounded, dependingon, you know, in october, yeah,
he knows he's hurt, he's goingto hunch up and walk off.

(08:52):
But if you nick the liverduring november, during the peak
of the rut and their levels oftestosterone through, the roof
they don't know that they'rewounded.
But if you gut shot a buck it'sstill the same way, you know.
But the thing the misconceptionis, I guess, with gut shot deer
is as soon as the deer is shotit starts to release the
firmament out of the indigitalgland that basically says, hey,

(09:14):
I'm sick and dying, and comefind me, and it's a wounded
scent.
The thing is is that as thedeer progresses further away
from the hit site, the scentgets stronger.
So that's why guys will say,hey, have a, you know, a higher
rate of that.
Now, when you deal with amarginal hit, let's say it's
like let's say it was a marginalhit that the deer is going to

(09:34):
survive.
As the deer leaves that hitsite and gets further, let's say
three, four hundred yards intothe trail, that trail is
actually stronger going back tothe hit site than it was going
forward.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (09:45):
So it's kind of like putting a drag line at your tree
stand.
You never want to like drag itfrom the truck to your tree
stand because deer's going toyour truck.
You know a lot of guys willkind of.
You know they have to learnthat the hard way.
So that's the same kind ofthing for a dog.
If the dog wants to charge backup the line, usually that tells
me that we're dealing witheither a backtrack, which does

(10:07):
happen, or we're dealing with anon-fatal hit and the scent has
washed out.
And basically she went into asearch mode where she's just
trying to find that scent.
You know I'm pretty good atreading her, but you know a lot
of times and this happened thisyear, and it was a snowy day,
arrow working, and it was, uh,like an 18 hour old track and
she led me all the way up, allthrough the beds, everything,

(10:29):
and all of a sudden I didn'tnotice it but she started
peeling to the right and shedidn't have as good of a line
that I felt.
But I felt she was strong, butI kept seeing little drips of
blood in the snow and I'm like,oh okay, she's still on it.
You know.
Well, come to find out she hadgotten a cut in her nose and she
was leaking blood.
Oh man, after I realized whatwas going on, I spun her around,

(10:52):
I took her back and got back onit and of course we went in the
right direction.
But it's just like you know, ina non-snow environment you
really never saw that littlespeck of blood.
You know what I mean Her.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
you really never saw that little speck of blood, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (11:03):
Her nose was dragging in the snow.
So you know, being a houndsmanis it doesn't matter what kind
of hound you're running, it canbe hard right, you got to be
able to read that dog all thetime and sometimes what you feel
you're reading good might notbe as strong as what you thought
it was, so you know.
But Well, thank you Matt learnedsomething tonight about that

(11:24):
pheromone, with how they releaseit.
I didn't know that.
Yeah, I didn't know that either, and that's basically what
we're working on, like, yeah,ara can smell blood and and you
know, she'll like kind of showme blood, but most of the time
she's not showing me the blood.
She's letting me know like hey,the deer walked through here
and you know she's just kind oflike setting on the blood as it
went through.
But you know that's mainly whatI trained her.
Um, you know now, like hertrack lines, only time I put

(11:44):
blood out for me is, for my owneyesight, like I'll put a drip
here.
There smear a little bit on atree so I can see it, because I
read a book one time the guysaid you never want to hang
flags in your training linesbecause the dogs will see the
flags and start to representthat with the track and then
they'll just follow the flagline through the woods.
So you know, I wear a pair ofshoes.

(12:05):
I just mount a deer's hoof inthe bottom of the shoe and I
just walk with them and that'sbasically how I train her.
You know most of our tracklines that I do training lines,
are you?
know, thousand yards with noblood, and you know they'll be
10, 12 hours old, sometimes 24hours old, depending on.
You know, if it's going to belike nice and cool in the
morning, I'll let them go alittle longer.
But if the scent yeah you know,if the, the thermals are rising

(12:27):
, the sun scent's going to bakeit off, then you know I don't
let them go that long.
So well, I guess that's good.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
I guess that's really good too, because if you don't
have a deer, if you have a deerthat's internally filling up
with blood but not getting it tothe ground at least we don't
have pheromones there yeah, goout to follow.
So just because you don't haveblood sometimes doesn't mean
that you're not going to recoveryour deer correct and and that
can go both ways.

Speaker 4 (12:49):
You know, like there's some of these deer that
I recover and I'm like whydidn't this deer bleed you?
Know yeah and you know we'reshooting.
You know, say, two and a halfinch rage, or you know inch and
a quarter slick trick with fourblades on it.
You know who knows mega meats,whatever it might be, and you
just wonder, like, how do thesedeer not bleed?
Sometimes, you know, and Iremember just as a kid, you know

(13:11):
, when I was growing up I wasshooting thunderheads yeah,
unless you unless you made agreat shot.
They didn't bleed worth a shitwith a thunderhead and most of
the hour didn't even hit whereyou wanted it to hit you know,
because they were so big.
But you know it can be.
You know people are like oh,why are you advancing, you know,
with no blood?
You know how do we know she'sright and I say, well, I let our

(13:33):
work in 300 to 400 yardincrements, without showing me
anything, as long as I feel thatshe's working at a strong rate.

Speaker 3 (13:39):
And you can read your dog.
Just from me running my beagles, I know by their body language
what they're going to do andwhat's going to come up when
you're over that dog.
Enough, you know them insideand out.
But awesome, awesome tech, Imean really good information,
thank you.
Thanks, frank, for letting meask that.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, no, no worries, I learned something too.
I had no idea.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
I didn't know about the pheromone thing.
I knew a little bit about itwith putting scent down when you
walk in and how you lay thescent down.
But I didn't realize that whenan animal's hit or wounded that
they were like he said if it'sfatal, they're going to put that
and it gets stronger thefurther they go.

Speaker 4 (14:16):
I didn't know, yeah, and you know, like a lot of
people have like a slightmisconception about the
pheromone, misconception aboutthe?
Um, the pheromone.
You know, I don't know if adeer can you know.
I know they have an individualscent, but do do I know if it's
the difference betweenstrawberry and chocolate?
No, you know what I mean.
But a whitetail can releaselike 37 different compounds,

(14:36):
true, so you know, when you'retalking all these different
pheromones, you know he could bereleasing a, you know, a rut
pheromone at one point, but alsoalso a fatal hit.
At the same time I have a buddythat's a tracker and most of the
trackers in the state.
We keep track and talk to eachother, sometimes on a daily
basis because we're so busy.
We're trying to get somebodythat's able to go out and help
you and my buddy's dog.

(14:58):
They went out and a kid hadshot it the night before.
He thought a good shot.
The deer was seen in themorning running does in a field
and they showed up later and hisdog.
They trailed all the waythrough and all the way back and
found it dead, like I think itwas like 150 yards from the seat
, but yet they went over a mile,mile and a half and a big loop
to come back to.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
So I guess what I was saying like November it's
amazing what they can go throughand, you know, survive.
Yeah, I've learned deer andrabbits kind of run the same.
Even though they're totaldifferent animals, they do a lot
of the same similarities, yeah,and people, people think, oh,
your dogs are so good, they ranthat rabbit right in a circle
back to me.

Speaker 4 (15:38):
No, no, the rabbit runs in a circle to get away
from the beagle and but a deerwhen it's being chased or it's
hurt.

Speaker 3 (15:47):
I mean, a lot of the times I've found deer.
Like you've said, you've gone atwo-mile loop and the deer's
150 yards from where you shot itand you wonder why.
But they know they backtrackedthat safe route.
They were there and maybethey're smelling the pheromones
or maybe they're smellingwhatever, and they realized.
So that's why I tell peopleokay, when you've lost something

(16:08):
, let's go back, let's make acircle out from where you shot.
And that's a lot of the timeswhen you're stumbled you'll see
that white belly or a taillaying there.
You know there's my deer, youknow.
But nah, awesome stuff, man, Ilike what you're bringing to the
table.
It's really really goodinformation, yeah I know.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
A lot of times too, like I've noticed, like even
when you make the shot, when yougo over there, like it was
almost like matt was saying withwith that pheromones, sometimes
you could smell it right away.
Other times it takes me alittle bit, but most of the time
you're like oh man, like youknow, but I just don't know what
to look for, I guess I mean thebasic thing you know as as,

(16:47):
just like any hunter you want tobe, you want to be the best
trailer you can possibly be.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
Right, yeah, and all of us have been there on our
hands and knees looking for thenext spec.
Or you know what's thedirection that this deer
possibly went and and I'vealways found like, and since I
started doing this, whatever Ifeel the deer has gone to do,
he's done 100 the opposite, youknow, um, small, small blocks of
woods like going, like, say,camden county 100, um, uh,

(17:16):
mammoth and stuff like that, andthey get these small blocks of
woods.
These deer can only go so far.
So I get a lot of times wherethey're going to you know you'll
think like, hey, they crossedthis road.
No, they backtrack, go 200yards back down the line and
then cross over.
You know I trailed one not toolong.
It was the day before shotgunseason.
Guy called me.
I went up and found his deer.
For him, the deer literally wasshot, went into a Christmas

(17:40):
tree sales parking lot and I'mlike, why does the dog have me
in this parking lot?

Speaker 2 (17:48):
And I'm like looking around, I'm thinking, I'm like
well, you have lost your mind.

Speaker 4 (17:50):
I mean the guys in there selling hot chocolate and
trees, you know what I mean.
Here I'm coming in the parkinglot and I looked down and here's
blood dripping off, thedripping off one of the trees.
I'm like okay.
So she worked and the deer wentin there and noticed all the
scent and people came right backout and he was dead, you know,
a couple yards back.
But he just back trailed, youknow, parallel to his line.
So it's like, you know, maybeduring the daylight you would

(18:11):
have walked over.
Oh, there's my deer, when youwere trailing the blood.
But who knows, you know, but Iwas like this dog is crazy I
mean, deer are just incredibleand you know regardless.
They're just tough animals, manoh they are, and they're
resilient, like because we thinkthat we're.
You know we're tough, but likeI know for a fact, you could.

(18:32):
You could shoot me with apellet gun, I'd probably still
be laying where you shot me yougot it, you know.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah, well, I was gonna ask matt.
So the um, what do you see?

Speaker 4 (18:40):
like for um as like.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yeah, well, I was going to ask Matt.
So the um, what do you see likefor um, as like hunters, like
what's like the most commonmistake that like hunters make
before like they call you?
Is it like do they chase themand then bump them?
Or like what do you usually see?

Speaker 4 (18:58):
So I see a lot of times and I don't say this is a
mistake by any means, you knowwhat I mean Um, but I find that
a lot of guys, you know, with somuch information that's out
there now with the trackingindustry out there, there's not
really anywhere that you can'tgo and find like a timeline that
maybe you could use to youradvantage, right?
So like I tell guys, you know ashoulder shot unless you saw

(19:21):
that deer go down right in yourplain view.
You know three to four hours.
You know you want to wait itout.
Gut shots, six to eight atminimal.
You know what I mean and ifit's, if it's a pure gut shot, I
want to wait, you know.
But I find that, like some guysthey say like I've had guys
that'd be like, oh, I waited twohours.
I usually cut that in half andso you waited an hour, know I

(19:47):
mean, and a lot of times guysmiss like the little signs and I
and I understand that you knowI'm doing this all the time.
So I I learned a lot more thanwhat I knew, you know, six years
ago.
So guys will miss little tinywound beds where, say, the deer
only laid down for a half hour.
It doesn't have a bigcompression radius to it, it
might just be a little drip ofblood there.
And they said, oh well, youknow, keep on going.
Well, but now they've jumpedthat deer out of its bed three

(20:08):
and four times and it's wentover a thousand yards and then
they lose.
They lose the track.
Um, those are kind of thesituations that I find.
A lot of times it'll be like ano blood thing where they'll go
and they lose the blood.
And then it's kind of like oh,oh, maybe he went this way,
maybe he went that way.
And then they start doing agrid search.
And the biggest thing I alwaystell guys, if you do a grid

(20:29):
search, that's fine, but justlet me know, you did it.
I prefer you don't do it.
But if you did it, just give mea heads up.
And people will be like no, Ididn't grid search.
I'll be like OK, and I'll beworking a perfect straight line
all the way down.
And then all of a sudden, she'shere, she's there, she's over
here, she's over there, andthat's usually tell that's
telltale sign, like, okay, now Ihit that spot for the grid
search.
And I always tell guys and whenI talked to about grid searches

(20:52):
and things that they couldpotentially maybe do a little
better.
If you were to wake up in themorning and your front yard's
covered in snow and you walkfrom your front door to your
mailbox and you walk back inyour same exact tracks, right,
that's what the dog sees on aone on one trail.
Now you let your kids out thefront door in the front yard
looks like a bomb went off.
That's what the deer that thedog sees, with that fur moon,

(21:15):
because it's all over the bottomof your feet and now you're
tracking it all over the place.
So that's kind of what you knowcan happen and make that a
problem.
But as far as like huntersdoing the wrong thing, no, I I
can't say they do it, because Iknow I've been there.
I'm sure you guys have probablybeen there, everybody you know
you want to recover your deer atyour own rate with your buddies

(21:37):
, cause it's it's part of it,right, nobody wants to call me.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
And when they call me it's like oh, I got to call me
and when they call me it's like,oh, I gotta call this guy.

Speaker 4 (21:47):
You know, I get it like you know what I mean, but
I'm here for when you need me.
Um, you know, I want everybodyto go out and try to recover
their deer.
And I've had guys call me andjust hey, you know what do you
think about this situation?
And they would show me somestuff or pictures and I would
tell them you know, hey, this ishow I would handle it, you know
, and I always try to check backwith those guys like, hey, any
luck?
Oh, yeah, we found them thenext morning 60, 70 yards away.
Okay, great, you know.
Or they'll call me say hey, youknow, can you come out?

(22:09):
Yeah, no problem, you know.
So I always want everybody tokind of do their own thing
before they have to call me, forsure, but not that I don't mind
helping.
It's just, you know, I knowwhat it's, so yeah, so real
quick, I mean hey guys.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
I was letting you guys go, you know.
So I don't know what I missed alittle bit.
I don't know what you guysreally covered, but I've had a
color tracker once and that'shonestly just because I just
didn't know much about color.
You know dog tracking andeverything like that years in

(22:49):
the past.
But kind of, when somebodygives you a call I imagine
during the season you guys arebusy and you guys are constantly
getting calls how do you kindof dictate which call?
Are you taking it first come,first serve, or are you
listening to the story, gettingas much details as you possibly
can, and then kind of evaluatingwhich calls you're going to be

(23:10):
going to, going to andprioritizing first?

Speaker 4 (23:14):
um, so when a call comes in, they definitely come
in in order.
I try to take them in order.
Um, the biggest thing would bewhat time of the shot was and
what type of forensics you have.
Um, you know, I always tellguys, the more information you
can give me, the better off.
I can give you a timeline ofwhat I feel is a timeline that
we should go.
I don't really necessarily everskip around to try to like get

(23:37):
somebody first, but like say, ifI'm going, let's just say I'm
going up to Jackson, new Jersey,and there's a guy in Browns
Mill, yeah, I might hit BrownsMill first.
And I'll just say to the guy,hey, you know you mind this.
And if he says, hey, I'mpressed on time, well, brown's
mill was second on the line, sohe's getting second call.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
So um you know.

Speaker 4 (23:56):
and then, depending on, like you know, if it's a gut
shot and you shot it at sevenin the morning and you called me
at 8.00 AM Well, night beforewe'll take that one, no.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
Matt, how many runs can you actually run arrow on
before you tire the dog out?
I mean, you know, like I wouldrun the beagles typically
between an hour and maybe anhour and 45 minutes, pushing it
maybe two hours.

Speaker 4 (24:34):
But you know how much is too much for your dog.
I really tend to not run anymore than three calls in a day.
Um, now, if it's something likewhere I showed up and it was
like first hunters, deer, youknow what I mean.
It was boom, boom done.
Okay, I don't even count that.
You know what I mean becauseshe'll map it up.
But in the early season it alldepends on the temperature arrow
.
You know she's a big dog, she's100 pounds and she doesn't.
She's not very nimble throughthe woods, she crashes through

(24:56):
shit.
So you know her using all thatyou know energy.

Speaker 3 (24:59):
I can relate.

Speaker 4 (25:00):
Yeah, she's hard on it, you know.
So it all it really depends onthe weather and how long the
tracks are and what.
I'm really getting involved inthings like that.
I've learned to really watchher when it's warm out.
Two times, you know.
One time she, basically shefound her own cool spot by this

(25:21):
little drainage ditch underneaththe road that was blowing some
cool air and she laid right down.
She said I'm done, you know,and that's me learning.
Like, hey, you know, I got toremember.
Like I've got two little girlsand a wife and she's a family
dog first you know.
And that's me learning like,hey, you know, I got to remember
like I've got two little girlsand a wife and she's a she's a
family dog first, you know youknow, most people don't care
what happens to my dog when Ileave, but my family does, you

(25:41):
know.
So that's the number one thing.
I have to make sure that Ibring her home and and she's
healthy.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
So I'm glad to hear that, because I feel the same
way.
Even though they were huntingdogs, they were house dogs and
they're our babies.
And these guys will tell you.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
I've seen it first hand.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Frank's seen me go into like overdrive because
there was a snake in the yardthat snake.
That snake met a mean fate witha shovel.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
So I've got you, man.
So what's like, um, like yourmost challenging recovery that
you ever made?

Speaker 4 (26:22):
yeah most challenging ?
Well, you know there's.
I feel like they all present achallenge in themselves.
Um, some of them, some, a lotof them, are very cut and dry,
just like with no blood kind ofdeal, and we can boogie down
those tracks, but uh, I'dprobably say the most
challenging one.
I got two of them actually.

(26:44):
So the first one was out inPennsylvania.
Um, a young girl called she hadshot a deer.
Um, I showed up, she shot it inthe morning and the way she
described it, right out of thegate, it sounded like a possible
liver hit.
So I told her, I said I'll beout the next morning, so I
waited until 7 am.
We ran out there.
We got there and I mean to tellyou like there was a house here

(27:06):
, there was a house here, therewas a house, there is a
cul-de-sac here and I'm like, ohman, you know.
So I, the line we crossed thelittle road, went down through
between, like right down along afence line, and then we came to
a running creek, like like atrout brook, but it was.
It was probably a good 45 yardswide and it was running water.

(27:28):
And she wanted to go acrossthat creek and I'm like man, so
I took her back a little bit,made sure she was right.
She brought me down to thecreek again.
She crossed the creek and, youknow, a little bit wet getting
across there, whatever get up onthe other side and she shows me
a bed right on the edge of thewater.
So she knew, I knew she was onit.
At this point it was figuring itout.

(27:49):
So then we go, we go straightup this mountain face and we're
going straight up, up, up and weget to the top and there's like
a small logging road at the topand just on the other side
there's a big ditch.
So our is working down thereand I'm kind of looking down the
ditch and looking up the ditch,not really looking where it
possibly could be, and our makesa hard right down into this
ditch and there's this deerlaying down in the water, like

(28:12):
his whole half, the whole sideof his body that was out of the
water was completely chewed offEverything that was on the
bottom side, he was perfectlyfine you know.
So it's like those are thesituations, that it's kind of
like that deer was shot at 7 amthe day before, so somewhere in
the middle of the night thecoyotes jumped him out of the

(28:33):
bed, so that means he was alivefor, let's just say, 12 to 14
hours and then, you know, died amiserable death, getting chewed
up you know, what I mean.
But and that would probably beone of them and another one I
had a uh, a guy called him andhis buddy had already tracked a
deer said that they had uh, hethought that he had gut shot the

(28:53):
deer.
I said okay, so we waited tilllike 11 o'clock that night.
I get up there and they showedme where the hit site was.
I put an hour to work and I'mlike, how far did you guys go?
And they're like we might havetrailed them like 100, 200 yards
.
I'm like, okay, I was like fouror five hundred yards away and
I found a boot print in the mud.
I'm like, well, you got, youguys went further.
What you did, whatever, no bigdeal.

(29:14):
So we kept working and, uh, weget up to the point and all of a
sudden arrow goes ballistic.
So I know I just jumped thedeer.
So I pull her off of it and wego home.
I tell the guy I'll come backup tomorrow.
He's like, no, he's like Idon't think we're gonna get that
deer.
I'm like, well, I can't forceyou to to let me to come back up
here, but if you want me to, Iwill.
So we start again in the nextmorning.

(29:37):
But the problem was thetemperature plummeted that night
.
It was like I think it was like14 or 15 degrees out in the
morning.
It's so wow and and that's hardon a dog working in that really
, you know, um, frozentemperature, you know.
So once the thermal started torise she got back to it.
So she brings me right across,she brings me to a gut pile and

(29:57):
I had blood before the gut pileto a gut pile and she just walks
right across the gut pile withno interest in it whatsoever,
kept right on going.
I'm like I hope somebody didn'tsteal this guy's deer.
You know what I mean In themorning here, you know.
Oh man, so we go out into thisrye field and the ground was so

(30:19):
dry that the blood that I wasfinding in the rye field I had
to rub it between my fingers toactually tell if it was a dust
ball or if it was blood.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
And it was smear red.

Speaker 4 (30:26):
So we go a little further and up jumps the deer in
front of us Now we.
So we go a little further, andup jumps the deer in front of us
.
Now we're talking like 17 hoursnow after the hit.
I can see him running away andhe's definitely hitting the
liver, but he's just blowing outblood low.
So I'm like you know all right,so I let him lay for a little
bit.
I told the guy, I said I thinkwe're probably gonna have to get
another shot on this deer, andhe says we're never going to

(30:48):
catch that deer again.
I said well, we're going to seehim again.
If he let us get that close tohim, we're going to see him
again.
So we're walking back to thetruck and I see the deer walking
down the edge of the field likehunched up and his head
dragging like real low to theground.
He was sick, pretty good.
So we waited an hour, hour anda half and went back after him
and needed to get another arrowin him.
But you know, we got the deerrecovered and that track was, I

(31:09):
think it was like 20, 24, 2500yards and by the time we
recovered them we were talking,you know, 19 hours old, you know
.
So those are the kind ofsituations where I find it to be
a tough track.
You know, um, not knowing.
You know what's going on, or,or here or there.
But you know the guy thoughtthat he had shot further back

(31:31):
but what happened was is theshoulder was forward and when he
hit it, he hit it, it actuallycut the hair on an angle and it
kept cutting before it actuallyhit the body cavity.
So you know, talking about likethose quarter and two and
quarter and away shots, they canbe like man, you can either
have really good or really bad,you know and been there and done

(31:54):
it.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
Yeah, yeah, they can say they haven't you know?

Speaker 4 (31:57):
yeah, I find it like a lot of people have a
misconception about the deer'sanatomy.
But you know, the liver sits onthe right side of the deer.
It doesn't transfer all the waythrough the deer oh, no, no,
yeah you got the you knowstomach chamber comes up on the
left side.
So if you shoot a quarteringtwo shot and you hit, say, here
in the front of the shoulder andit passes through the deer and

(32:18):
comes out, you might only getone lung and come out in front
of the punch on this side.
But if you do it on this sideyou can come out and go through
the liver.
So you know, know if you drawan x in a deer, it's amazing
what you can and can't hit.
You know um, and I don't really.
You know it's funny because onelung hits in october will be

(32:39):
fatal in november.
They're not fatal, you knowwhat I mean.
A lot of times like you'll getlucky sometimes but you blow,
you blow through that top searchand you catch one lung.
A lot of times you'll probablyeither see that deer back on
camera within a couple days orsomething more, or maybe
somebody else will shoot themand you won't ever know what
happened to them.
That does happen too.
But you know it's amazing whatthey can live through.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
So I read something matt and I don't know how much
truth there is to it because Idon't believe everything that I
read.
But we have between our lungs aflap, so if and that's through,
you know, genetics, throughyears of mutations and stuff, us
getting hurt as cavemen andfalling down and puncturing the

(33:20):
lung and still being able tosurvive.
Now I have heard and what Iread, some deer do develop and
have that flap that shut downone side to the other and some
don't.
I don't know how much truththere is to it.
I don't know if you've everseen it when you've maybe, you
know, got into a deer andgutting it out and seeing if it
happens.
And, like you, over the years II can't even tell you how many

(33:44):
deer are shot.
Over the years I've seen themgo down with one lung and I've
seen them never again with oneyeah, and.
I've seen them never again withone.
So I don't know if it'ssomething in that factor that
that deer was born with thatgenetic or or not, but I it's
amazing what they can endure.
You know, sometimes they'lljust go, go, go, and you know.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
Yeah.
I would think it would be moreor less of like uh, I don't
really know about that.
You know if there's a flapinside the bronchioles that are
heading down into the lungs, butI would say the more that the
thing it possibly could be isjust like humans, you know we're
built with three and two, so ifyou have more tidal volume on
one side, you know you may beable to sustain life a little
bit more.
You know, and I've always cometo this conclusion, like when I

(34:28):
dealing with like to go offtopic a little bit about the
lungs, but with a liver hit deer, I find that if a deer is hit
in the smaller lobe of the liver, they die faster and if they're
hitting a big portion of thelobe, they can last longer.
So it's like you know, and itcould be the same exact cut, it
could be a perfect punch rightthrough it, and they'll live
longer if they're hitting oneside of the liver.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
So I think that that has the same outcome when you're
talking about livers and lungs,depending on which portion of
the liver you know, and that'san awesome point, because being
able to cut a liver up and eatit when you dissect that liver,
when you're actually cutting itup, you'll see there's more
blood vessels in that smallerlobe, like you said, which is a

(35:10):
pressure point for that animalto bleed out faster where the
fatty part of the liver it's not, and that you know.
I'm willing to bet that'sprobably the same thing that
goes on with their lungs.
It's probably how close theyare to the ventricles.
You know the small tubes intheir lungs, yeah, fingers that
are in there.
If it's a more forward hit,where the lung is tighter and
it's more blood vessel area,they probably fold faster.

(35:32):
But that's, that's a key point.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
That's really interesting yeah, yeah, because
I would have never thought ofthat, but now that you guys
actually like bring it to myattention.
Now I'm actually thinking aboutthem like holy shit, like yeah,
yeah huh there's a lot ofscience there's a lot behind it.

Speaker 4 (35:50):
Now I'm just kind of scratching the tip here.
You know what I mean In my, inmy time of doing this.
I mean some of some of mymentors and friends have a lot
more time in the game and I Iknow they've seen stuff, cause I
call them up and you know I'llbe on a track sometimes and I'll
call some of my mentors that Italked to on the phone.
I'd be like you know, am Imissing something?
They're like Nope, it's justpart of it.
You know so and that's andthat's what I like about the

(36:13):
tracking community.
You know there's a lot ofreally good trackers and we're
very fortunate in New Jersey tohave good quality trackers and
dogs.
And you know, years ago, thisused there only used to be like
a handful of guys.
Like in 2010, because it wasunder it was under a research
permit by um, there was a groupof guys and there was a

(36:34):
researcher his name was drwalgas, I think was his name,
and he basically came up withthe the whole system for us to
be able to use dogs.
But there was only a coupleguys like you know, darren doran
, and you know I think it waslike maybe kyle gilson and those
guys you know.
So there were just a coupleguys.
So guys that lived way up Northhad to travel all the way down
here to the South, and now thatthere's more trackers out there,

(36:56):
you know it's, it's easier forthem.
They don't have to come all theway down here and we don't go
up there.
You know, I try never to go up.
I don't go past the one lot, uh, route one, 95 in the state,
unless it's for a friend orsomething like that.
Usually I'll call a trackernorth of that and ask them if
they can handle it for me.
So you know.
You know they want to run theirdogs too, and you know just
like I want my dog.

(37:16):
So you know, that's all, it'sjust.
But if they're busy they'llcall, you know they may say, hey
, can you run this track?
And yeah, I'll come up and doit, you know.
So we try to work together.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
So yeah, no, that's important because I was actually
my next question.
I was gonna.
I was gonna ask you, like, howfar are you willing to go
compared to like some of yourother you know, some of the
other guys who track dogs, andthat was actually.
You just answered it, so thatthat's actually good to know and
that's actually perfect yeah,I'll run.

Speaker 4 (37:43):
I run right from the, from the ocean of the delaware
river, on the 195, all the waydown south.
Now, if it gets into the deepsouth, like down by, like
bivalve and stuff like that,I'll venture down there to, you
know, every now and then.
But if not, I'll pass it off totwo guys down there, you know,
because they're right there, youknow, and if they're busy
they're going to say hey, matt,I can't make it.
You know, go ahead and run it.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
So I'll go down there and take care for you.
So for your efforts I mean, doyou have a set fee that you
charge, or do you ask for just adonation towards your time?

Speaker 4 (38:30):
base and I ask you just to keep in mind, like you
know, I'm traveling from here.
This is how long it's going totake me, and I got to go home,
and most guys are very good atit, you know they're willing to
pay you for your time justbecause they, they know what
it's like to go to work or go todo something.
Um, now, if I go outside of thestate or if I'm going north of
that, it's usually about 125hours for me to show up and then
, um, that includes if I don'tfind your deer, that it's

(38:50):
included in that.
If your deer is recovered, thenI ask you to tip me on top of
that.
So yeah, I just got to cover mytime in the truck and fuel and
you know so it gets expensiverunning all over the place, but
you know at the same time youknow I don't get in a tree for
it.

Speaker 3 (39:06):
So the fellow that I had come out, he was about 45
minutes away from me and rightover the phone.
First thing he said was likehey, man, I get 150,.
You know, for my efforts andI'm like, dude, you find that
deer, you'll get more than 150.

Speaker 4 (39:20):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
I'm going to take care of you.
You know I'm going to take careof you no matter what, but just
just not to really get offtrack or anything.
The guy had a new dog and thedog got away from him.
He let the reins go because hewas tangled up in briars and my
deer jumped, ran across thestreet and he's like oh, my dog.
I said, listen, bro, I got fourbeagles, your dog comes first,

(39:42):
I don't care about my deer,we're going to go get your dog.
And I ended up.
I ended up finding his dog andbringing it back to him and he
looked at me and he's likeyou're all right, man?
And I'm like listen, I got dogs.
I told you I love dogs.
Now, let's go try to find mydeer.
But the deer had jumped and ranagain.
I caught it high in theshoulder in the front.

(40:04):
I let him a little bit too much.
I should've.
It was a real short shot.
I was just thinking he wasmoving faster.
Totally my mistake, but youknow.
But you know what I paid theguy.
I thanked him.
We had him on my other podcaststhat I do.
He was a guest.
He came on and I like what youhave to bring in your your

(40:35):
knowledge of the actualinternals of the deer and how
you explain things.
I think you're a little bitmore of a seasoned veteran and
and he has no, no you know,demeaning stuff towards him.
I mean, everybody's got tostart somewhere.
Yeah, uh, very, very goodinformation what you're bringing
to the table, man, I'm reallyenjoying this very good.

Speaker 4 (40:49):
I appreciate it, you know and you know a lot of it
has come from you know, readingand understanding and talking to
guys.
You know I wouldn't be where Iwas today if I didn't have guys
that were willing to shareinformation with me.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
You know, and and I always you know younger trackers
.

Speaker 4 (41:04):
I talk to them, um, there's a, a page out in
pennsylvania it's blood, uh, pa,blood trackers or something
like that, and they've asked meto like mentor junior guys and
you know I I call them up and Itell them, like you know, if
you've got questions and you'reon a track or whatever I said,
give me a call.
I said because that's what it's, it's based upon.
You know, like for me, likecalling tracker John, that time

(41:25):
on the phone, before I even gota dog, he didn't have to tell me
nothing, he didn't know me, youknow, and he's not like he
spent almost two hours on thephone with me, you know.
So, like that's the way I kindof have to look at that, like
it's time for me to give back toyou know and and I'm still, I'm
still in my, my own theory,like I'm not the best, but I
don't believe I don't believethat people put in as much work

(41:49):
sometimes as myself or some ofthe other trackers that I know,
like I make sure that when Ileave there I did everything
possible to recover your deer.
You know, either I saw it alive, I watched it get up, I found
it dead, or it's already back oncamera.
Like you know, there's beentimes I've literally like this

(42:11):
past year I had a guy call me onThanksgiving morning.
He was like I shot a deer thismorning.
I was walking into the seat Ithought I made a good shot, but
I'm not sure I can't findanything.
I'm like okay.
I said well, you gottaunderstand it's Thanksgiving, I
eat some with my family, I'llcome out tonight.
He said yeah, man, no problem,you know whatever.
So so I told him I'd be therelike nine o'clock at night.
So I'm here at the house likeeight o'clock getting suited up

(42:31):
and phone range.
He said hold on a second.
I said what's up?
He's like I'm waiting for an hdphoto to come through for my
trail camera.
He's like you don't have tocall my dears.
I guess I never even hit it.
It was standing right there onthe on the game camera.

Speaker 3 (42:43):
Oh, my gosh you know it's.

Speaker 4 (42:46):
it's truly amazing, like what white tails, willails
will do.
Like people were like oh, thedog's going to blow up my woods,
they don't care about that.
They don't care, not one bit,and I always try to like get in
and get out.
I don't want to spend any moretime than I have to there.
You know what I mean.
But there's some instances likewhere, like, I feel like, okay,
the the conditions are in ourfavor, it's not hot, it's nice

(43:12):
and cool.
This morning it's nice andmisty out.
Everything is optimal for herto be able to track.
So let me utilize that and makesure that we're not missing a
turn or something like that.
I mean, she is a dog.
She makes, she has good daysand bad days, just like we do.
So, those are the things we haveto look into when we're when
we're out there, so, but youknow, I definitely appreciate
you with good feedback, for sureI got a quick question for you.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Um, you know so through your, you know the years
that you've been doing this andeverything like that.
Are you keeping a track on?
Um?
You know shot placements, thebroadheads, anything like that
do, and what is kind of likeyour, the history so far, far
seen, seen with that, like whatis your highest um, do you see a

(43:55):
big difference with fixed andmechanical and all these things
in the realm of you know bowhunting and everything like that
.
That's always the big debate.
You know fixed, mechanical orthe hybrid now that that they
have and everything like that.
Um, and what can, what have youseen you?

Speaker 4 (44:09):
seen.
Yeah, so, like when you talkabout history, you know like
these books are are filled withevery track I've ever ran.
You know, um, and I use, likeyou know, I can't show you
everything just because thehunter's information in there,
but, like you know, here, likethis is a diagram of the deer
and this is all you know, hasall the quadrants on there.
So like when I, when you callme and I ask you like where do
you you hit that deer, I sendyou this picture so you can kind

(44:31):
of give me that.
Then I'm going to ask you, likeyou know, okay, what kind of
broadhead were you using?
And here's my thing withbroadheads right, if we're going
to be shooting up in that frontshoulder area, I want to fix
blade.
If we're going to have amarginal shot, and let's say
it's going to be a little back,I want an expandable, because a
big expandable going throughsoft tissue does a ton of damage

(44:54):
, right, but a fixed blade goingthrough soft tissue, it kind of
like, just kind of gets closed.
It's not closed up, but it getsfilled up everything and it
just goes in and it's done.
Now sometimes they can sitthere and they can cut, and
there's that controversy.
Well, a fixed blade will cutand a expandable won't.
So I think it all really dependson what type of shot we're

(45:17):
dealing with and you know whattype of angle we're dealing with
.
Like if we're dealing with aout of a ground blind, I want an
expandable, no matter whereyou're hitting it, on deer,
because most of the time huntersalways shoot high.
When you're shooting out of theground blind, you know,
especially if you're new at it,because the deer they're on the
same level with you.
You have zero angle going down,you're just going through and

(45:37):
that deer is dropping as theshot's going.
So a lot of times you'regetting them a little taller, so
hopefully we're going throughthe top of both lungs or
You know um downward shots.
You know how tree stands me.
I'm a fixed blade guy for themost part I shoot a.
I shoot a.
Uh, it's basically a one bladebevel.
I shoot a helix broadhead fromamerica's best bow strings makes

(46:00):
them and, um, they're calledhelix but they're a single blade
bevel on two sides and it's cutin diameter all the way around.
Um, it doesn't have a big hole,it just leaves a nice gash
going through and I've had goodluck with them.
Um, I shot rages for years, Idon't know.
I never had no problems withthem.
You know a lot of guys like youknow.
I heard guys say oh, you shouldget a dog with a rage I don't

(46:24):
know.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
No comment, no comment.

Speaker 4 (46:26):
Yeah, I ain't gonna say nothing either, yeah, I mean
if you're, if you're hittingbone and you're shooting an
expandable, you're breaking it.
I don't, I don't care who youare, you know what I mean.
Um, you know, like bomar's gotthat new blade out the beast.
I've never shot one, I've nevertrailed for one.
That's been shot, but I don'tknow.

(46:47):
It's still an expandable, likeit's going.
It can possibly Right.
So that's my whole thing, likewhen we're dealing with
depending on what type of shot.
So for me it's it's fixed bladefor the most part.
But you know I'm not scared toshoot a rage.
I'll shoot a rage tomorrow,like with no trouble at all.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
I'm pretty confident in a bunch of the mechanicals
that they have now on on themarket now not saying you know
it's gonna just blow through theshoulder and everything like
that, but I, I will tell yousome of the mechanicals that
they're now making are just waydifferent from from back in the
day, um, you know, and but Ithink it's.

(47:23):
It all comes down the biggestpart also is confidence in your
equipment, and it comes down forbow hunting it's.
If you're not confident in yourequipment, then that's where a
lot of the issues come.
And you know, for me, like, ifyou know, if I go to I don't
want to say this, butpotentially, if I switch to rage
right which you know, frank andI we've talked about just

(47:46):
because of certain situationsand everything like that and and
things popping up right, wouldI, would I be shooting a hundred
percent with confidencethroughout the year?
No, and that's a big reason whyyou know, we talked to the one
guy who was like hey, listen, Iwant you guys shoot rage like
this.
This is like the deal andeverything like that, and I was

(48:06):
like I don't, I, I don't likeyou could say that you guys have
created now the best broadhead.
That's going to hold after myexperience with them, that you
know, when I use them I'm justnever going to like be able.
I'm always going to have thatin my mindset because now my
mind is set in stone and then Ito just have a hundred percent

(48:29):
confidence, yeah, in everythingthat I'm running, when I take,
um, you know, when I go out intothe woods, you know every
hunter is, is like that, so andthat's where it comes yeah yeah,
yeah.
So I think that's, that's thebig, that's the big thing.
Um, I mean, it's it.

Speaker 4 (48:50):
It all depends, like yeah it could go either way on
this one and you know it's likethere's no right or wrong answer
, right, it just depends on what, what you're comfortable with,
like you said.
You know like things happen.
It doesn't matter.
When you're hunting you can be100, like.
I'm behind my bow every day, onthe most part, like you know,

(49:10):
56 hours a day, no trouble, youknow.
And then when it comes huntingseason, I spend just as much
time behind my hunting bow as Ido my target bow.
And that gives me thatconfidence level because I'm a
firm believer that when musclememory takes over, it's over
it's done, but having theability to have a very
well-tuned bow.

(49:31):
It doesn't matter what broadheadyou're going to shoot, but,
like you said, you have to becomfortable with what you're
shooting.
So you know, if rage let youdown one time, that one time is
going to stick in your mind forthat uncertainty forever, you
know.
And that's just what you haveto boil everything down to,
because, like you said, if youdon't have confidence in your
equipment or confidence in theshot or whatever, you're just

(49:53):
something's brewing disaster.
That's the way I look at that.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
So no listen, I agree because it happened to me last
year quite a bit.
I mean, I just recentlyswitched to severed bra heads
love them, by the way.
But you know I I, you know itwas um early season in jersey
got my first doe.
No problem went.

(50:17):
It was a couple weeks later,shot a big 10 pointer, was
completely on me.
Now I hit them high in theshoulder, squatch and mike notes
they, they were there for thetracking job on it.
I mean this deer did a backflip,flipped over, did everything in
the world right, I've neverseen anything like it.
But it wasn't the broadhead'sfault, because I know in my mind

(50:42):
when, when that deer came andhe was leaving, when I drew back
, what happened was I thought he, I thought he took a step
because I watched him move.
But what happened is he justmoved, just like the top part of
his body.
So he went to turn the look buthis body never moved, it was

(51:04):
just his neck and his head.
But I saw movement and thoughthe stepped.
I released and I ended uphitting them high.
And I mean, they know the deal.
He did a back flip and we only.
I think it was what maybe likea hundred 150 yards when we
found blood guys or somethinglike that.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Yeah, it was close to I think it was around a hundred
from where you had shot.
Yeah, it was about a hundred.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Yeah, but the complete op.
I mean it was you know everyonewho's listened to us.
It was the craziest thing likeand just breaking dissecting the
video, because we had it onvideo and everything like that.
We thought the deer went one wayand actually just bounced the
complete direct opposite way andI think randomly, I think Frank
pulled up on the four-wheeleror something like that, whatever

(51:51):
, and looked down and there wasthis tiny drop of blood and then
we were able to get on blood.
But then it came to theconclusion that it just and
which he was alive and well.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
He was alive.
He had a scar for a couplemonths.
I started watching because ittook him about a month before he
he showed back up on camera andthen he had a huge scar at the
top of his shoulder, but theyended up killing him during
during the gun season.
But uh yeah yeah, it was just.
It was just one of those thingsyou know yeah, it's yeah, both

(52:26):
ways.

Speaker 4 (52:27):
Man, you know, like, yeah, and I always tell guys,
when I'm dealing with a, anupper shoulder shot or maybe a
shoulder hit indirect, I'm likewe got a 50, 50 shot that's how
I base it.
Like I got a 50% shot that I'mgoing to either recover or the
deer is not going to berecovered.
And you know, and that's theonly way I can base it, because
you know, if you don't get afull pass through, I have no

(52:52):
forensics to go off of.
Like you guys, if I would haveshowed up on that track and you
were like the deer went this way, but the dogs tell me we go
this way, and now we starttrailing it and we find your
deer, that kind of like, yeah,you're happy you found a deer,
but I'm like at the same timeyou were like, well, what did I
see that made me think the deerwent this way?
And it plays tricks on yourmind.

(53:13):
It does, and I know that for afact because I've been there,
I've.
I remember the first time Ishot a deer my dad was like
which?

Speaker 2 (53:21):
way to go.

Speaker 4 (53:21):
I'm like I don't know , I know, I shot it.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
He's like okay, you know, and then you know, as you
learn, it's just like the moreyou pay attention it ran like
hell, dad yep so I get it, I getit real quick, something that
I'm because I I see it all thetime and I'm always like wow,
like I can't believe thishappened, where you see a shot

(53:44):
or someone calls you up and it'slike, hey, like I made this
good shot, yada, yada, yada.
And when you do actually findthe deer, it's not a hit the
artery or something like haveyou ever walked up to a deer
that you know?
It was just a direct oppositeof what the person said and,
like you, were just absolutelybaffled by how this, this deer,

(54:05):
actually died and something likeI saw some video of a guy
hitting like the back hindquarter or something and it just
, thank god, clipped the and amain artery and everything like
that.
So the gear went out, but yeah,have you ever come across
something like that?

Speaker 4 (54:20):
yeah, so I had.
I had a guy, uh, an oldergentleman, called me and he said
, hey, I took a, a quarter andaway shot.
I said, okay, how, how hardquarter and away?
He says, pretty sure I couldsee the white of the ass.
I'm like, all right, now I'mlike, okay, we're taking a
pretty hard quarter and awayshot here.
So you know, go on and on.
He's like of the ass.
I'm like, all right, now I'mlike, okay, we're taking a
pretty hard quarter and awayshot here.

(54:41):
So you know, go on and on.
He's like I got blood.
And I'm like, okay, you knowhow far, tells me everything
about.
Boss said, okay, I'll come outin the morning.
You know, that way we could see.
Okay, so I get there in themorning we went about 150, 200
yards and recovered a deer.
He shot it through the neck.
It was facing him.
It was facing him when he shotit.
He shot it through the whitepatch.
The deer was looking up and heshot it through the white patch.

(55:03):
He thought it was walking away.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (55:06):
So like that was a, for instance, like and whatever
you know.
But, you know, and I've hadother ones where, oh, I got it
in the front shoulder and youhit it way back in like the ham.
But the thing I always try tolike give the hunter and respect
that thing and I never like belike, oh, what the hell are you
looking at?
Like it's never like that.
But like when a deer ispositioned in the heat of the

(55:28):
moment, like guys will say, okay, this is broadside, right to
all of us on the computer.
Well, they'll say it's likethis.
Well, that's broadside, but inreality it's not not.
Now we're talking 30, 40degrees, you know what I mean.
So, like when they say it'sbroadside, I'm usually like,
okay, if he wasn't broadside,could have been more quarter,
two or quarter and away, becausemost of the time they're never

(55:51):
broadside, like you know,everybody be like oh, I smoked
him, he was broadside.
Well, okay, but if he was 100broadside and he was 100 smoked,
you wouldn't be calling me yeahso what was cool
I use.
That term is, like you know,not breaking anybody's balls.
I'm just saying you know,trying to give the the whole
situation here, so, but thoseare usually the situations that

(56:13):
I find I've never had one likehit, like anywhere, really crazy
, and it's died, anything likethat.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
But you know some, I guess misinterpretation hits, I
guess you'd call that see nowwhat they need, matt, is they
need somebody like Squatch,because every time I shoot one
I'll call Squatch.
He's like listen to me, brother, to me brother, calm down,
you're in distress.

Speaker 4 (56:37):
Just take a breath.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Relax, what did you see?
And then if I can't, if I can'tlike get the words out, I'm
like I'll just send you thevideo.

Speaker 3 (56:48):
Yeah, that's one of the key points that I was just
going to bring up was we're veryfortunate to be able.
We're using cameras.
So when I shot that eightpointer that that I didn't
recover the, for you know, Ididn't have blood immediately.
I just turned around, walkedout of the woods.
I'm like, no, I know betterthan that.
Let me go home and review thefilm.
And I had my neighbor.

(57:08):
He's a great hunter, great guy.
He, he stopped down.
We're on the laptop and we'regoing frame by frame, watching
that arrow go into that likehigh shoulder and he, he's like
man, dude, you know, we got theapps out.
We're looking at like 3D deerfor the vitals.
He's like, yeah, you had toclip that long and you heard him
gurgling when he ran away.

(57:29):
I'm like, yeah, man, he's gotto be down.
And you know, you sit there andyou play that video over and
over.
And Frank, when he had whathappened with his deer?
This thing was break dancing.
It looked like some gymnast outon a gym floor and then it's
screaming going down to thewoods and I'm like you could
hear him dying.
Frank, he's gurgling blood andI mean it.

(57:53):
Just, you know my grandfather.
He always said, son, when theygot the will to live, they'll
live.
When they want to die, they justgive it up.
And he says you're going tolearn.
The more and more you hunt, beprepared.
You pick that bow and arrow upor for whatever you use,
understand you're going to losesome deer.
It just happens.

(58:16):
It's just one of those things.
And you know, I had a quickquestion to ask you too not to
get off track and interrupt, butI was just wondering how does
wind and the weather itselfdictate how you're going to
recover that animal?
And you know, like I know,you're saying, okay, I mean,

(58:36):
I'll give you for an instance.
And you know, like I know,you're saying, ok, I mean, I'll
give you for an instance.
Let's, let's just say I livershot a deer at about 20 yards,
slightly quartering away.
You're going to say, hey, Iwant to give it six to eight
hours before I come up there andlook at that deer.
But let's say, all of a suddenit starts downpouring rain, the
wind picks up and it's like it's, let's just say, it's like a
late October day when everythinggets cold and dreary.

(58:58):
I mean, how fast do you feelthat that's going to affect you?

Speaker 4 (59:05):
How does that weather play a role with you?
So the wind doesn't bother me,especially especially when we're
working in the woods.
Now, if we're working in like afootball field, I'd be a little
worried about it.
But the only thing is I'llnotice our shift.
I'm going to notice her shiftto the downwind side.
Now, with that being said,arrow's a lefty.
She's always on the left sideof her scent and anytime that

(59:26):
she loses it, she circles to theleft and comes back into the
line and picks it back up again.
Wow, and have dogs that arerighties.
You know they're always workingon the right side, um, but the
wind will play, for instance, inthat when it comes to rain.
I've worked through some prettyheavy rain, I've worked through
snow and it's never affectedher.
Um, I do have one, and you knowI'm kind of up.

(59:52):
Till this year well, it wasactually last year I have never
had anybody call me and say theyfound their deer dead after I
was done working All right.
So I prided myself on that.
I can't say that now.
So a buddy of mine shot a deer.
We went in and trailed it.
It tarantula rain poured thatnight.
Arrow picked up the line.

(01:00:12):
She took me straight up.
By God, on my phone my trackline takes me right over where
that deer was found dead.
I think we jumped the deer andpushed him around a block of
woods and he came back and andand laid back down.
But I can't guarantee that.
Um, so when I talk about rain itdoesn't bother me, but

(01:00:34):
sometimes that kind of pops intomy head, like when we're having
this conversation now, likeokay, you know, I did lose one
in a heavy downpour, but I didrun one a couple years ago.
The guy called me in themorning.
He had gut shot a doe and hesaid, hey, you know it's going
to start raining.
I said don't worry about therain, we'll be fine.
It rained all day long.
It was still raining when I gotthere and three, four hundred

(01:00:56):
yards later she had the deer andnever, she never hiccuped, not
one time so like I look at that,like, okay, you know, just like
we were talking about with thebroadheads.
You have one bad thing and itsticks in your mind, so but I'm
never going to allow the rain orthat one bad inference to make
me stop my timelines.

(01:01:16):
You know, liver hit deer.
I'm not showing up, probablyfor 12, until the next morning.
I won't even go after a liverhit deer prior to that.
Now, if it's, you think like,hey, I shot the deer.
Like guys, you know, I'm tryingto see here, like I'm just
looking at this graph real quick, but like a seven or an eight D

(01:01:36):
on this graph, which you knowis directly behind the shoulder
here we're double punching,double lungs here, right, so
somebody gives me that andthey're like OK, I shot at seven
this morning and I'll go out.
Well, the problem was that'sthe call I got.
The guy said you know, made agreat shot, I had some blood and
then I just lost him.
Ok, so me and our showed up Ithink it was like six, six hours

(01:01:58):
after the shot.
So Ara's out front of me workingnow in the state of New Jersey.
They always have to be on thelead, they can't be off the lead
when we're trying.
So she's at the end of her lead, which is 50 feet, and I'm
maybe like a foot or two fromthe end of the lead and all of a
sudden I hear all thiscommotion.
I'm like what in the world?
So I'm running up the lead asfast as I can through all the
brush here.
She's got this guy's buck bythe back of the neck and he's

(01:02:21):
trying to like over top of theback.
You know he's trying to standup so I pull her off the buck's
growling.
You know she's trying barkingat the freaking deer finally get
another shot.
Well, here it was a liver hit,but it was the back of the lung
and the liver, so he was pretty,pretty sick.
He couldn't really get away.
So the hunter was able to getanother shot.
But you know, those are the onlytimes where, if I get

(01:02:43):
information that they felt wasthis and that's all they can do,
is by their feeling, and thenit turns out to be something
different.
But if you know, and we bothknow, we're dealing with a liver
hit deer and it's raining, I'llsee you guys in the morning,
you know, especially if it'sthat night.
You shot the deer, you knowyeah, so you know it's, it can
be.
And there's also signs, like youknow, like guys will be

(01:03:03):
trailing the deer themselves andthey're like, oh, we're finding
watery blood.
I'm like, okay, you know whatcolor is the blood?
Well, it's red.
I'm, yeah, I know it's red, butis it like, is it a real watery
maroon blood?
Does it have a sheen to it?
Is it real bright red blood?
Like, what kind of blood are wedealing with?
And they sent me a picture ofthis corn leaf and there's blood
running down the corn stalk andit's like dark maroon blood.

(01:03:25):
I said stop.
I said that deer is 100% liverhit.
And we went in the next morningand got on that deer and we
were able to get it, and thatwas after, like a rainstorm, you
know, through a cornfield.
So it really all depends on thesituation at hand.
But wind, rain, snow withinreason, like an inch, inch and a
half.
I've never really trailedthrough anything deeper than

(01:03:46):
that after, like where it snowedon top of the trail, but I
don't so anything deeper than aninch or two.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
I would kind of be like, oh, maybe I should get on
a little bit earlier, but youknow, still I have to let those
thermals rise in the morninganyway, yeah yeah, I got another
question, matt, a little bitoff topic too, but, um, did you
ever see anything where like,let's just say, like the deer
crossed the property line orposted and you weren't they

(01:04:14):
weren't sure if they would getpermission?
Like what would something likethat like when you run into that
situation, like how do youusually go about that?

Speaker 4 (01:04:22):
Anytime I hit a property line and I don't have
written permission, or thehunter doesn't have written
permission or the landowner'snot with us, the track stops
immediately.
It does not matter.
Um, I, I tell everybody, um,I'm not losing my license or
getting a fishing game violationfor entering anyone's land
without their permission.
So what will happen is I tieoff a ribbon at the tree, I mark

(01:04:45):
it in my phone, I mark it in myGPS and we pull out and we get
permission and we go back in.
I've had so this past year.
I was trailing for a young lady.
I always use Onyx.
She had another app I forgetwhat it was called, but she was
able to bring up the owner'sname, phone number and
everything right from the app.

(01:05:06):
She didn't have to look them up.
She called the guy right on thephone.
He said where are you guys at?
She told him kind of where wewere on the path.
I'll be right there.
He got in his truck, drove downthe road, rode in this bicycle
path and met us right there andwalked us with.
You know, came with us.
So, like those are the, forinstance, is that you know it
makes it easy, but sometimeswhen you're in the middle of the
night, you know, I had oneclose here by the house and I

(01:05:29):
came to the guys like right tohis horse pen.
I mean, the deer went rightthrough the horse pasture.
So I came up and the horses arein there and ours getting all
antsy because you know there'sother animals.
So I pulled her off and I'mlike all right, am I going to
knock on this guy's door at 11o'clock at night, you know.
So I saw a light on in thegarage and it sounded like
people were in there.
So I knocked on the door.
Nobody ever answered the door.

(01:05:51):
I said, all right, we're donefor the night.
So you know, the next morningthe hunter goes over there and
ends up knowing the peoplethrough a long ross, friend or
whatever, and they ended upgiving us permission.
Well, the deer wasn't on theirproperty, went into another
property and then it's like okay, we got to get that permission.
And then we got across throughsome state land onto another
piece of property and I just sawthe guy working in his yard.

(01:06:13):
I tied arrow off to the tree, Iwalked out there, I told him
who I was, showed him mycredentials and he said yeah, no
problem.
He said thanks for asking.
So I feel like I'd rather justask you know, like I don't ever
want to get jammed up, you know,and and I I know like guys
would be like, oh, I hadpermission.
I'm like, okay, do you have thepermission with you?
Because I'm not just because ifI get in trouble you're gonna

(01:06:34):
say, well, I didn't tell him Icould go on there, and then
that's really you know, and thenyou're going to get the,
because there's a couple ofnumbers in my phone that it
comes up do not track.
I don't have their name inthere, it's just do not track
and I won't even answer thephone.
You know, it's like they'veeither tried they've either been
hostile with me on things orthey tried to get me in trouble

(01:06:59):
by allowing me to go on propertythat they didn't have
permission.
So yeah, I don't really like to.
You know, I'm straight shooter.
I don't like to play games andI don't want people playing
games with me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
So yeah, no, absolutely, and but it's just
crazy that you got that you likeran into situations like that
where, like you know, people arejust like that, like I, I've
had you know I had one guy mf meup and down in the woods and
then his buddy called me liketwo and a half weeks later.

Speaker 4 (01:07:26):
He's like hey, I just want to let you know that
deer's back on camera.
I know he won't call you, butI'm like okay I appreciate it,
you know yeah, wow and I alwaysask guys I'm like, if you can
let me know, like, hey, the deeris alive, it doesn't change.
It doesn't change my stats,like if I run up, if I run, you
know 50 calls and I recover 20of those deer.

(01:07:49):
Those are my stats, even ifthey're alive or not.
You know what I mean when, whenthe one is done, but I can't
change.
You know, it's not like it goeson there and says okay, I'm
still batting 100 because thatdeer was alive.
No, I'm still down one, youknow, or down to whatever it may
be, you know.
So, like you know, last year um, I forget what I, I think I ran
like 40 around, like 40 sometracks and I and I was at 52 on

(01:08:13):
my recovery rate.
You know and I find I think thatanybody that's doing more than
that like and and I always saylike I must have the worst dog
in the world.
That's why you know jokinglysaying that, which I know I
don't, but I always say thatbecause guys would be like oh
we're, you know, 75, 80, I'mjust like man, I don't know, you
know but, you know when I writeit down, you know it's in here

(01:08:35):
and like I'll put an asterisknext to in this book.
You know when I write it down,you know it's in here and like
I'll put an asterisk next to inthis book.
You know it's just, it's everytrack I've ever been on um, for
the most part and the other one,but it'll have an asterisk in
there, like okay, the deer wasback alive.
Or the hunter called me and saidhe, you know, he shot it in
late muzzleloader season,whatever it might be, you know
just just so I know, you knowand like I get guys, I tracked

(01:08:56):
one down down in Salem Countyfor a guy and he he thought he
had made a pretty good shot.
It ended up being a.
I can't really say which one itwas, because when the kid had
actually killed the deer, I wastrailing a deer for two miles.
And I came, I was going throughthe woods and I heard somebody
say yo and I was like I stopped,stopped the dog, like looking

(01:09:18):
around I don't see nobody.
And the guy says hey, over here, and I look up and there's two
guys up in a tree stand One'svideoing.
He says you after a big eightpointer.
I said yeah, he's like justwent through here a couple
minutes ago.
I said well, what's a coupleminutes ago?
He said probably about fiveminutesing.
I'm like okay.
So I called the track, I toldthe kid and he was like yeah,
after two miles I got.

(01:09:39):
I feel I got my answer I waslooking for.
So a couple of weeks later I geta Facebook message said hey, uh
, were you the guy trail on thisdeer down in Salem County?
I said yes, that's me.
He's like just want to let youknow I shot it last night.
I said okay.
I said you know,congratulations, awesome, deer.
Where was the other hit?
And there was two hits on thedeer.
There was one high in the topof the back and one right in the

(01:10:01):
front shoulder, um, so I don'tknow which one it was.
You know what I mean, per se.
You know I can't, you know Ididn't.
The guy told me that he hit it,I think in the front shoulder,
but you know the way that Iperceived the blood when I was

(01:10:22):
going through the woods, when Iwas trying to deer, it told me
that I was dealing with ashoulder hit, because where the
blood was on the trees, you knowand stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
So those are kind of the situations I find at hand.
So you know, awesome, awesome,but uh, boys, you got anything
else.
We're getting to that.
That marks that time we got.

Speaker 3 (01:10:37):
I just wanted to ask uh, matt, real quick is?
Um, when I had the tracker come, right over the phone, he asked
me what my license tag numberwas.
I don't know if you do thatwith your guys, but I thought
that was kind of.
It was like I had anothertracker years before come out
never.
Just was like yeah, just know,tell me where to meet you and

(01:10:59):
whatever.
This guy's like, yeah, I needyour hunting license number or
this and that.
And I was like, wow, and it wasfunny, he actually tracked a
deer for my cousin who's about45 minutes away from me.
When he saw the same last nameand I was like, yeah, that's my
cousin.
He's like, oh, I tracked a deerfor Bob last year.

(01:11:21):
I'm like, oh, no, kid.
I was like he didn't tell meabout that Cause he's probably
too proud, cause he's a goodhunter and he doesn't really
make mistakes.
But anyway, I just thought itwas.
You know, it's, it's kind ofprofessional.
I was like, you know, that's,that's cool, the guy's checking
out and make sure you're legit.
And, um, he, I believe hecalled in on the start of the
track and at the end of thetrack, I think he called in.

Speaker 4 (01:11:40):
I don't know if that's something that you have
to do or it's required for youto do, but I was just wondering
about that Prior to the lastcouple of years they used to
have to call in and talk to thewarden whenever they would start
a track or finish a track andthey would have to let them know
the status of that track.
Now it's changed to at the endof the year still, like when you
call me up, I'll ask you tojust shoot me a text where I'm
meeting you with your full nameand your and your cid number.

(01:12:03):
Not that I'm checking up on you.
I mean it's not my business tocheck up on you.
Um, the only thing is, at theend of the year I have to let
them know every track that I ran, no matter if it was recovered
or not.
Now they asked for a locationand that location I put in there
within an intersection, youknow.
So if, say, we're hunting at206 and and route 70, those

(01:12:27):
would be.
The intersection is there.
You know.
I mean it's not an actual gpslocation of where you were
hunting at.
Now I have ran in situationswhere, um, people recover the
deer but say they may not wantto tag that deer or something
like that.
But I always let them know like, hey, no matter what you do.
At the end of the day, yourlicense number will be in my

(01:12:50):
report with a recovered deer andthat's just you know like.
I told you guys before andanybody that's watching this I
shoot straight, I'm not going tolose my license or having
trouble for nobody.
So you know, but a lot of guysalways ask like well, you know,
what do you do with ourinformation?
And it's just, you know, Ialways try to.
I keep a form right in thereand I say this is the form I

(01:13:11):
have to send to the state and Ishow them exactly what it looks
like.
You know.
And guys ask like you know, doyou keep our, you know your
track lines?
Well, I keep my track lines formyself.
I don't ever share them withanybody.
I don't show anybody anybody'shunting spots.
If I'm in a piece of woods thatI tracked in before which has

(01:13:35):
happened I trailed and one piececame over this way and the
track line a year lateroverlapped, I never tell that
guy like, hey, you know, Itracked for this guy over here,
you guys are hunting the sameblock of woods.
Like it's not my place to blowup anybody or put anybody on the
hot.
You know, in the seeing eye ofeveryone, I just kind of let it
be.
So that's the information Ihave to give.

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):
So yep, cool, very good, awesome, really cool.
Mike, you got any lastquestions, or you're good?

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
no, I mean.
I mean, you guys are asking allgreat questions awesome we
happy.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
Well, that's good news.
Well, matt, we have to get youback on bud, because this was
awesome.
I'm sure we're going to haveanother thousand questions when
we next time we talk to you.

Speaker 4 (01:14:13):
Yeah anytime any guys have any questions.
You want to do another podcast?
Reach out, like I said you know.
If you guys Any of you guyshave any questions, you want to
do another podcast.
Reach out, like I said you know, if you guys ever need anything
or you have a question about atrack, you're doing yourselves,
not even if you want a dog comeout, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
Before you go, I actually got one question for
you.
You know, in New Jersey, sinceyou've been doing this, what
have you seen of um with thedeer numbers and your calls and
everything like that is?
Is there any trend that hasbeen sticking out to you, um, in
the last like a couple years?

Speaker 4 (01:14:47):
especially with the, with the deer number and
everything like that.
Um, well, for me it's kind ofhard for me to gauge because
even though, like this, is goingto be my fifth season coming up
, it's still that I'm new in thegame, you know what I mean in a
way so like.
But I have heard of, like someof my more seasoned guys in the
state have said, like, hey, youknow, my calls were down a
little bit, but it seems likethey always fall in the same

(01:15:08):
realm of calls, so maybe it'sjust not like a an influx of
calls in that early bow seasonand during the rut it might be a
little bit more extended outinto, like, say, shotgun or
whatever you know.
So, um, but for me my calls,like lately, they've kind of
just been steady you know, Idon't really have anything to
say like it's been up or downreally.

(01:15:28):
So.
And I don't really, and I don'tlook for work either, so you
know if my friend brings morehelp.
But you know, if my friendrings, I'm more than gonna help.
But you know, like I'm not outthere like trolling social media
trying to find somebody whoneeds a tracker, like I got
enough stuff to do that wasactually my last question for
you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:47):
I was going to ask, uh, how people get a hold of you
, um, so you can say, my phonenumber 609-457-5904.

Speaker 4 (01:15:56):
Call or text anytime.
Um, I also run a facebook pagecalled on the Trail Deer
Recovery, and same thing onInstagram.
My phone number is listed onboth of those sites.
So if anybody needs to reachout to me and it's in the middle
of the night, I don't care whattime of the night it is If you
don't want to call, you want toshoot me a text, just reach out
to me that way, becausesometimes social media like I

(01:16:16):
find it I might not get themessage for like a day or
Or somebody would be like youknow, I sent you a message, you
didn't get it.
Well, I'm sorry, you know stuffhappens, but at least if you,
if they call, I can at least getahold of them.
Um, you know, and if I'm away,you know I'm going to have it a
hundred myself.
You know I try to go to theMidwest during the hype of the
rut, which is probably prettystupid on my behalf, but, um,

(01:16:38):
you know, I like to chase them.
I like to chase them just asmuch everybody else.
And you know people call me allthe time while I'm out there
and I'll be like you know whereare you at and I get you the
best tracker that's going togive you the same amount of work
that I would give you, as if Iwere to show up and you know,
amount of work that I would giveyou is if I were to show up and

(01:17:00):
you know I try to pride on thattoo, you know what I mean.
Like I'm not going to send, notthat we have any bad trackers
but if you call me, I'm going toget you somebody that's going
to give you the same exact workthat I would give you so awesome
, awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
But hey, matt, we appreciate you coming on the
show everybody.
Please, please, give matt youknow a big uh, look over there
on.
He's on on the um, what was it,I'm sorry?
On the trail, on the trail,deer recovery.
Give him a big shout out, givehim a follow.
I'm sure you'll probably behearing from us relatively soon,

(01:17:34):
but we appreciate having you onthe show, man all, all right.
Well, I appreciate you guys.

Speaker 4 (01:17:38):
Definitely it was a good time, very good information
we appreciate it yeah,absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:17:43):
You're very knowledgeable man.
We appreciate it again.

Speaker 4 (01:17:46):
All right, guys, we'll shoot straight and have
fun.
We'll talk to you?

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):
Yeah, absolutely, man , thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
Well, thanks a lot everybody.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode and we'll see you all
next time.

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