July 15, 2025 • 41 mins
Mental health readiness is perhaps the most overlooked aspect of college preparation. While academic credentials and test scores dominate the conversation, students are rarely assessed for their emotional resilience and social readiness – the very skills that often determine their success.
Our conversation with Joanna Lilley, a therapeutic consultant who works exclusively with college-aged young adults, reveals a troubling pattern. Many students who excel academically find themselves overwhelmed by college life, sometimes withdrawing after just days or weeks. The culprit? A lack of preparation for the independence, social navigation, and emotional regulation college demands.
Parents play a crucial role in this readiness equation. The "helicopter" or "lawnmower" parenting styles that clear all obstacles from a child's path inadvertently prevent them from developing resilience. When these students face inevitable college challenges without their parents' intervention, they often crumble under pressure they've never learned to manage.
The COVID pandemic has exacerbated these issues, creating significant developmental gaps for students who spent their formative middle school years in isolation. Today's college freshmen missed critical opportunities to develop social skills during lockdowns, making campus life particularly challenging.
Perhaps most concerning is the over-medication of young adults. Many high-achieving students are prescribed multiple psychiatric medications to help them cope with academic pressure, creating additional risks when they mix medications with alcohol or discontinue them without supervision in college environments.
What determines success isn't academic capability but rather having experienced adversity and developed coping strategies. Students need balance, social skills, and the self-awareness to recognize when they need help. For many, taking a gap year might be the wisest decision, allowing time to develop emotional maturity before attempting college.
Ready to reassess what college readiness truly means? Listen now to understand how you can support genuine preparation that encompasses the whole person – not just their transcript.
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Dr. Teralyn:
Therapist Jenn:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (00:02):
Well, hey everyone, you have been
gaslit into believing that yourmental health is fully prepared
and ready for college.
We are your whistleblowingshrinks, dr Terrellin and
therapist Jen, and you've landedhere on the Gaslit Truth
podcast.
Today we have a guest with us,joanna Lilly.
Joanna is a nationallycertified counselor.
(00:22):
She's the owner of LillyConsulting, where she has been
helping young adults find mentalhealth, substance use and
wellness resources since 2016.
She's known to be fiery Well,thank goodness that's why she's
on the show, right, but it comesfrom a place of being
passionate and caring for clientwell-being and betterment.
She also hosts the Success isSubjective podcast.
(00:44):
Welcome to the show, joanna.
Thanks for having me.
Dr Teralyn Sell (00:47):
Yeah, you know the college thing is something,
because I said to Jen before yougot on, I said I don't always
agree with that.
College is.
I think you said in your thingcollege is a scam.
I don't always agree with thatand I hope that we can get
talking about that part of ittoo.
But I think this is a reallysmart conversation to have,
(01:11):
especially at this time of year,because there's going to be a
lot of kiddos heading off tocollege who are probably not
mentally prepared for that.
So I think I'd like to kickthis off by asking a question
what does it mean to be mentallyprepared, or prepared, mental
health, prepared to go tocollege?
(01:31):
Like what do you see in yourclients and what does that mean?
Joanna Lilly (01:35):
Yeah Well, I mean actually a lot of at least the
information that you see outthere that folks will focus on.
Is this difference betweensomebody who's college capable
and somebody who's college ready?
And I think what we're leaninginto is this like college
readiness piece, which is reallylike do you have the ability to
regulate?
Are you okay with discomfort?
Can you handle like puttingyourself in situations that will
(01:59):
come across as naturallyterrifying, or like eliciting
fear, which is normal?
But how do you respond to that?
Right?
Do you have the anxiety that'sspiking so much that you can't
even lean in to show up forclass or to feel comfortable
meeting your new you know dormmate or like whatever the case
may be?
So I think, kind of going backto what you were just talking
(02:22):
about, there's so manyindicators of what looks like
whether or not somebody isreally going to be able to hash
it out, and for me, the biggestpiece really are, like the most
common thing that sticks out isif a parent was very, very
involved in making sure thatthat young person was like to a
(02:43):
T right, all T's, all I's, youknow, t's crossed, i's dotted
with all things that were takencare of, not just with mental
health but with school executivefunctioning related social
activities just very managedbecause there's no room for that
discomfort, the unraveling, theability to test it out.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (03:02):
You're the helicopter parent,
essentially the unraveling theability.
You're the helicopter parentessentially yeah, no, the
lawnmower parent.
Dr Teralyn Sell (03:08):
I heard about the lawn.
Do you know what the lawnmowerparent is?
It's the parent who gets infront of the child and mows
everything down for them first,instead of the helicopter, and
I'm like sometimes I was alawnmower parent okay, so this
is what you're describing.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (03:23):
So this is kind of like a red flag
almost for you.
It's kind of an indicator ofthat readiness.
Not being there socially,emotionally, mentally is when
there was someone else in theirlife who did all the things for
them yes, was there to protectthem through everything, help
them through all their emotionalturmoil, constantly being
(03:43):
involved, not letting them haveany independence.
I mean, essentially you don'tlearn how to do anything by
yourself when someone does itfor you.
So that's kind of one of thoseindicators that you notice.
Joanna Lilly (03:53):
Yeah, and I think this time of year, right, we are
spot on.
I am speaking with so manyparents I can't even tell you
how many right now that are like, even though I just paid the
deposit officially and we'vesigned up for orientation here
in the next like three weeks,the parents like I really don't
think they're ready.
And it's like, well, first ofall, we've got two kind of
(04:14):
competing perspectives, right,we've got this young adult who
thinks that they might be ready,which in reality there's
probably a lot of like growinganxiety again around whether or
not they think that they canhandle it.
But again, that's probably alot of like growing anxiety
again around whether or not theythink that they can handle it.
But again, that's also aconflict too, of like well, this
is what I'm supposed to do,because what you know, society
and my friends and everybody'sbeen telling me that this is the
path I have to take.
And then the parent that issecond guessing their child's
(04:38):
readiness and a lot of thathonestly again has to do with
like, what has their involvementbeen in making sure that their
child's okay?
And so now here we are,literally 11th hour, and we are
questioning whether or notthey're ready, and to me I'm
like trust your gut, parent Doyou think some of that is
parents questioning if they'reready for their child to leave.
(05:01):
You know I appreciate you askingthis.
I do think that there's acomponent to that right.
Parental Terry, were you ready?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (05:08):
Come on, terry, I know this is we're
going to personalize this forjust a second.
That is so real right.
Dr Teralyn Sell (05:14):
Yes, yeah it is but but.
But I do have to say I, I'm afirm believer in cause.
I do have parents, you know.
We have parents that talk to usand just friends with kids that
are in high school or beyond,and I tell them, like if you
don't believe your kid can, thenthey can't.
You have to stand behind themand believe that they can do
(05:37):
something with them without youdoing it for them, because
you're going to disable them atthe same time.
If you think that they can'tand you lead with that type of
fear with your kid, like I knowI can't, I'm so scared and all
these things, like you thinkit's all in your head, but it's
actually in your behavior too asa parent, and I think that's
where the lawnmower parent comesin or the helicopter parent is.
(05:58):
That's the belief that yourchild actually can't without you
, and I think that's aproblematic space for parents to
be in.
As someone whose kids have goneto college right, only one went
off to college, only one leftwhat do you?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (06:15):
see in your practice with this, joanna,
and actually with answeringthat question too, can you share
a little bit with our audienceabout the type of population
that you work with, the agedemographic that you work with,
the areas of focus that you have, because this is an area of
expertise?
Joanna Lilly (06:31):
for you.
Yeah, so I'm a therapeuticconsultant.
I work with young adults.
All of my clients are betweenthe ages of 18 and 29, the
majority of which are reallycollege age, so 18 to 23.
And I say from that and I keepa small caseload, so it's
manageable.
But the majority of my caseloadare literally young adults that
attempted college, whether theywere there for a day, not an
(06:55):
exaggeration a week, you know,like a couple semesters.
My work and all of its mentalhealth related, it's not that
they weren't academicallycapable.
I mean, certainly a lot of themended up failing their classes,
but that had everything to dowith the rest of their wellbeing
, impacting their ability to bea student.
But that said, like my job isto kind of help unpack what just
(07:20):
happened.
What do you need?
How do we get you the supportthat's going to basically get
you back in a position to feelconfident in yourself as a
person pursuing some sort ofpost-secondary path, if that's
what you even want to do?
Because sometimes the unpackingis why was I even forcing this
square peg in a round hole?
I don't actually even want acollege degree.
(07:42):
I want to do somethingcompletely different that
doesn't require a degree.
So, anyways, it is the joy, butit's also a double-edged sword
of really helping a young adult.
And then obviously we'redealing with the entire family
too, because there's a lot ofpressures depending on where
they're from, the expectationsaround kind of post-secondary
pursuits or even stigmatizationaround mental health.
(08:05):
I mean, it's a lot to deal with, but that is my full-time
business is working with thispopulation of young people.
Dr Teralyn Sell (08:14):
Yeah, why do you think so many young people
in high school you may or maynot know this end up getting
medicated during high school?
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
Like because I feel like somuch of that is driven by
parents and fear and because Ithink when you head into college
(08:35):
and you're medicated, that is arecipe for disaster right there
, because, again, nobody'smonitoring your medications and
you're now taking them sometimesand you're also taking them and
using, maybe, drugs likelyalcohol, all these things.
So where do you think that thatmight originate?
(08:56):
I'm just curious because I knowwe're all in the same field
here.
Where do you think theprescribing of teenagers?
Where do you think that comesfrom and what are your thoughts
on that?
Joanna Lilly (09:09):
I'm going to look to both of you to chime in on
this, for sure, but I think frommy lens what I see is we are an
over-medicated society ingeneral the US, right.
We are high pressure, and ifyou can't keep up, whether it's
anxiety, whether it's depression, whether it's ADHD, there's a
(09:30):
pill for that.
And so we go, and this is likeso archaic in the way that I'm
saying it, but it's like parentsseek support from professionals
.
So, whether it's yourpediatrician, your primary care
physician, or we have theability to seek out a
psychiatrist.
Please help my child.
Here's the symptoms.
Let's just get a quick pillright.
(09:50):
Let's fix this and move on.
But the problem is that we'realso dealing with so many other
layers of complexity, likedeveloping brains.
I mean just like in general,what our society is dealing with
.
Right, we've got like economicstresses.
We've got like economicstresses, we've got like
political stresses.
We've got like all thesedifferent things that are
(10:10):
impacting our young people asthey're growing up.
But just kind of as a medicalmodel, we really are focused on
this, like, well, just take apill and you'll feel better.
Dr Teralyn Sell (10:20):
Well, also, I think, just to chime in here,
that there's also this messagingto parents too If you don't,
your child's going to take theirlife Like, if you don't
medicate them, then they willfor sure take their life.
And how dare you not help themin that particular way and which
ends up disabling them again?
(10:42):
Yeah disabling them again fortheir future.
So I think it's kind of a hotbutton right now and I'd like to
kind of profile the kid whomight be medicated.
When I say medicated, in thissense I'm talking about
antidepressants, anti-anxietymeds.
When I kind of profile it,knowing what I know, what I see
(11:04):
is high performing studentsbeing medicated because of that
extra pressure and the beliefsof who they need to be and the
continuation of that.
That's what I see.
The kids that are in I got totake all AP classes, I got to be
the best, I can't miss out asingle test All of that those
(11:24):
kids are the ones that,seemingly to me, end up getting
medicated the most, and also theimpoverished students.
I think those are the twobiggest students, in my opinion,
that end up getting medicatedthrough their life at an early
age.
Because it's accessibleMedications are accessible to
(11:50):
everybody.
But that's what I see,especially the ones that are
going off to college, is it'salways the high performers that
end up in therapy.
Joanna Lilly (12:00):
It's weird to me, it's super weird and, honestly,
those are the clients that I'mworking with.
They are high performers,they're the ones that don't make
it past the first day.
They're like, oh my gosh Right,like what's happening, and so
that fear of failure too is just, you know, the stakes are too
high.
Dr Teralyn Sell (12:17):
Yeah, and the lack of resilience yeah, a
hundred percent.
The ability to bounce backafter something quote, unquote
bad, because bad is a perceptionright After something bad
happens, the ability to bounceback is not there.
It's just a colossal failure inthat first week I keep thinking
(12:40):
about, because I had a kid whowent to college in 2020,
graduated 2020, went off tocollege that fall.
The social structures of thattime were so different and I
don't know if you see adifference in social structures
still beyond that, because the18, 19, 17, 18, 19-year-olds are
(13:02):
not my forte, except for beinga parent, right?
Do you see that the socialstructures have still changed?
Yeah, yeah Could you talk alittle bit more about that.
Joanna Lilly (13:12):
They were in middle school right During that
time.
And so these are, yeah,absolutely formative, social,
like actual formative yearswhere you're supposed to make
these social connections whichwe know is still tumultuous,
because that's how it is inmiddle school but here you are
studying at home, completelyisolated, and we're also just
(13:34):
ramping up a lot of thetech-specific addiction or kind
of tech-connected behaviors, andso it just created even larger
of a rift in terms of theability to connect.
I mean, the expression how tomake friends is so real right
now and I, you know, I obviouslymy lens is so focused on the
(13:54):
college age, but I think it'sreal for high school students
now too, depending on where theywere kind of developmentally.
As you know, covid was playingout.
It really had a significantimpact and we've been saying it
and I say we like otherconsultants, other mental health
professionals who've just kindof been talking about it it's
like we weren't just in it rightthen with the young people that
(14:15):
were like just graduating highschool or college.
It's like, can you imagine thisnext wave of young people that
were, I mean, even babies,babies born at that time and how
that was impacting them?
So I mean we're talking an 18year kind of impact.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (14:33):
Right.
Dr Teralyn Sell (14:34):
Go ahead yeah.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (14:35):
I?
I was just thinking about theidea of academic readiness
versus, like, social readinessand emotional readiness.
Okay, so, yes, I'm thinkingabout being back forever ago in
high school, right, and when Iwas being prepped, prepped for
college, right, taking that damnACT test repeatedly which I
(14:59):
fucking did miserable on.
I think it took three times.
Hence why I couldn't get into agood college, because that's
all that mattered, right?
Was that stupid multiple choicetest that I suck at taking.
Okay, not to get on my soapboxwith that, but damn so much
disappointment.
Joanna Lilly (15:14):
So much self-disappointment.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (15:17):
No, you're not going to get into the
schools.
It was just so ridiculous.
Anyways, I kept thinking abouthow prepped I was for academic
readiness, but I was not preppedfor like the social, emotional
readiness part, like theheaviness of what, like this
environment is going to do, thepressures that's going to happen
when you go from you know, likea very structured school day
(15:41):
that's eight hours long andevery hour or two hours,
depending on what kind of blockschedule or not you have where
you're rotating through versushere you go.
We're going to sign you up forsome classes.
You're going to sit in thishuge lecture hall for an hour.
You're going to have threetests the entire semester.
We're going to throw the lowestgrade out.
Two are going to count.
(16:02):
So if you suck at like certaintypes of test assessments,
you're screwed.
We're going to put a ton ofpressure on you because you're
left to your own devices tofigure out what to do socially.
You're going to startexperimenting with alcohol, like
I think about, like thedisordered eating that was
occurring right in my life atthat time, but that wasn't
something that was beinghighlighted right for me.
Like I was academically ready,I was told that, yep, straight A
(16:25):
student honors student,national Honors Society, number
11 in my class of 100 andsomething I had all the academic
accolades I was set, but from amental health standpoint I was
a mess, but that wasn't assessed.
Dr Teralyn Sell (16:42):
No, but in today's world these kids are
going from in-person now rightto a lot of the coursework that
they have is online.
They're doing it right in theirdorms, which doesn't allow for
that social interaction yetagain, except for sitting in
your dormitory.
So, if you can if you guys arelistening here if you can have
(17:05):
your kids, take as manyin-person classes as possible.
Don't start doing the onlinestuff right away.
It's a recipe for disaster,especially if they had trouble
socializing in high school.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (17:16):
Do we assess, though?
Do we assess kids for themental preparedness, the mental
health readiness?
We do academic stuff untilwe're blue in the face.
Tell us what you think aboutthat, Joanna, because you're
shaking your head, we don't.
Joanna Lilly (17:31):
And it literally is left up to a parent to be
essentially the final gatekeeperto say I don't think you're
ready.
Which then, if schoolclassmates, the community, right
, like all the messaging hasbeen you're quote, unquote,
ready, all tied towards thatacademic side of things, then
(17:52):
all of a sudden we've got thisparent-child conflict too, and
parents tend to be the ones that, at least again anecdotally,
what I'm seeing parents feelreally uncomfortable holding
that boundary and saying I don'tthink you should go, and then,
and then, unfortunately, againanecdotally, they're sending
them off.
They don't last very long.
And now we're, now we'redealing with such a like a mound
(18:14):
of shame.
It's not even that you justdidn't do well academically,
it's I didn't make friends, it'sthis was my whole identity,
this is I was supposed to be acollege student and what the
heck just happened.
So now I've got this likeimposter syndrome that I'm
wrestling with, which, even ifthey are medicated, now we're
just like really, we're reallyhaving to untangle the mess that
(18:36):
just played out, which is whoam I, what do I need?
And there's just so much workthat has to be done.
And then you've got the likeparent dynamic there too,
because there's some guilt.
Dr Teralyn Sell (18:52):
I mean, it's a lot, you know, I think about,
cause I I have a recent collegegrad and I'm I'm kind of going
back to his readiness forcollege.
To me it was not an academicreadiness at all.
Okay, he made it through highschool just fine.
And I tell people this all thetime you don't have to be a
straight A student.
That is not the predictor ofyour outcome in college.
It is not.
Whether you take AP courses isnot the predictor of your
(19:16):
college outcome.
The predictor is your socialskills.
And I will tell you that my sonwas an incredibly social kid,
very social, not to the point oflike parties and drinking and
stuff like that, but he wassocial.
He was an athlete, he wasinvolved in teams and when he
went to college he said he, heset forth his uh, like, this is
(19:38):
my goal and he said I'm going totake advantage of any
opportunity that comes my way.
And that's the kind of kid heis.
And he did he Everything heopened up.
And so when I work with theyoung adults that are in college
, I tell them join a club,socialize, do something outside
of academics.
You have to, you have to learnhow to do these things.
(20:00):
And when they start doing thosethings, guess what?
They come back to session.
They're like that was amazing.
And I have new friends now.
I'm like, yeah, it's prettyincredible that the only friend
that you thought you were goingto have was your roommate.
And when that doesn't go well,that roommate situation, when
that doesn't go well, everythingfalls apart if you have nothing
(20:22):
else that you're building.
So I wish there were moreconversation Right now.
I think the conversation aboutcollege readiness is one it's
going to cost too much andyou're going to be in $200,000
worth of debt and you shouldn'tdo that, which is not the case
in state schools, by the way.
And number two, it's allacademic readiness.
(20:44):
How did you score on that ACTwhich they took away in our
state for the majority of thestate colleges?
How did you do in that and whatare your academics like?
Did you take any AP classeswhich don't even fucking matter?
They don't matter, yeah, yeah.
So how do you assess how?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (21:02):
do you assess?
That's what I was going to say.
How do you assess this?
Like what?
Well, how.
Joanna Lilly (21:05):
How do you?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (21:05):
assess this.
How do people do this?
Dr Teralyn Sell (21:13):
Yeah, I mean, if I had a magic wand, what we
would do, I think oh, she'sdoing the therapist magic wand
thing right now, do it.
Do it, go ahead, go Sorry.
Joanna Lilly (21:19):
Okay, if I had a magic wand, I think the way that
we would truly assess it iswhether or not a young adult.
I mean, I think to your pointit is about can you socialize,
do?
you have any type of socialskills period and I don't want
to minimize that sometimes thatthat's harder for neurodiverse
young adults, but there's got tobe effort put in right.
(21:41):
Do you understand what it meansto connect with others?
The other piece I think that'simportant is adversity.
Have you experienced adversity,not managed by your parents,
but you yourself actually workedthrough, because that is a real
life skill that needs to?
I mean, we're talking aboutresilience, we're talking about
(22:01):
grit.
That's the kind of stuff thatcollege students need to have.
But if you haven't experiencedany adversity because your
life's been pretty protected upuntil the point that you
literally graduated high school,college is going to be a rude
awakening, rude, rude awakening.
And then the other thing Ithink that's important is
there's got to be balance.
We can't continue to put somuch pressure on the academic
(22:24):
side of things or the scores orthe accolades.
I think it's important to havebalance right To be engaged in
activities, to have someartistic right, tapping into
artistic skills, not just likescience.
Even though I know STEM's beenpushed so hard, I think we're
still human, like we need toactually have creative people
(22:45):
that are doing things.
All this is to say to I thinkthe biggest piece is that we can
also ask do you even want to goto school?
Because if you don't understandthat college is optional higher
education, then the idea ofcollege can wait.
It's not that it's off thetable, like I think that's.
(23:05):
The other thing too, is I getparents will say, well, if they
don't go to college now, they'llnever go.
And it's like what, what areyou drinking?
That's not true.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (23:15):
Like truly bullshit.
Kool-aid is going through yoursystem.
I'm pretty sure not like 50, 60years yet of their lives where
they can go do it Right, oh myit Right, oh my goodness.
Dr Teralyn Sell (23:28):
Yeah, it definitely looks different.
It definitely looks different,for sure it does.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (23:32):
But think about how, like I think
about that, like if I would havewaited, like, think about how
things could have looked just alittle different if you would
have waited a bit Financially.
Think about that for a hotsecond.
How could I have actually donedifferently Finance wise?
Because that was horrific,right, working the multiple jobs
, knowing that even now, yes,I'm going to be in debt till I
(23:58):
probably die with loans becauseI have so many.
When I think about that idea,think about it financially.
If you wait, think about social, emotionally and how growth
changes.
If you wait, shit, think aboutthe central nervous system
developing and it's not going tohappen until you're like 23
people, right?
So you just threw yourself intothis.
Some stressors that peoplecan't handle at 18.
Right, well, that's stillfucking developing.
And then, unfortunately, a lotof times and we were going to
(24:21):
talk a little bit about this tooand we touched on it but a lot
of these kids go to school andthey end up having to be
medicated because they can'tmake it through the stress of
school.
Dr Teralyn Sell (24:30):
Yeah, and I say , if you're going to go to
college and you have to medicateyour way through college, then
you need to actually think isthis the right?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (24:41):
thing for me right now.
Think about that.
That's our whole lives, that'smany people's lives.
Our clients medicate their waythrough shit marriages, shit
jobs, shit circumstances.
Dr Teralyn Sell (24:50):
Don't start doing that as a young person, to
medicate your way through ahard time.
You've got an opportunity toaccept it, change it or leave it
.
Essentially, put up or shut up,that's what it is.
But you have to be able toidentify that and put words to
it and step out of your ownguilt and shame about it and
(25:11):
make that adult decision if it'snot right for you, or figure
out how to be resilient andbounce back.
Figure out how to discuss thiswith your instructors, right?
This is what I told my kids,both of them, all the time.
I'm like get to know yourinstructors, you'll be fine.
Get to know them, but what doesthat mean?
You got to know how tosocialize.
(25:32):
You got to know how to talk.
You got to know how to expressthese opinions to yourself,
right?
Or to somebody else.
And I do think that all thequest for diagnosis and all
these things when kids areyounger is not as helpful as
people think as they grow up,because then we become
(25:54):
lawnmowers and helicopters.
So the ability to believe thatyou can do something is stronger
than anything else.
The disbelief that you mighthave and I'm going to say this
very controversially, because wewere pushed to get my son
diagnosed at a very young agekindergarten first, second grade
(26:16):
and we didn't.
We took him a different routeand it turned out that he had
something entirely different,but we never told him.
We never told him that, liketutoring and whatever, he still
had to do all the work, but henever knew.
(26:45):
So he didn't know that that wasputting him behind.
He didn't know that what helearned was he had to learn
different ways to adapt and howto be resilient with what it was
, and I think that was the thingthat helped him the most,
instead of leaning on the ideathat I have this diagnosis right
, therefore I can't right andtherefore I won't.
(27:08):
And I think I mean that's acontroversial thing to say it's
not universal, that that wouldbe great for every kid, so I'm
not saying that at all.
But what I'm saying is I testedit out and it was helpful for
us and for him, and now he's asuper successful human being,
which is amazing.
Um, screw you, kindergartenteacher, but anyway.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (27:31):
Well, and that ties a little bit into
being like gaslit by providersor by labels.
And you, you said you know, likewhat it does, yes, like
academic teachers, the systemitself.
When you, um, when, when you,when you completed your form
that we asked our guest to fillout on the show you said
something about these youngadults that you're working with
now and that they feel as thoughthey've lost trust in this
(27:58):
system in general, and whetherit's minimizing feelings,
whether it's like they start tolike, get up alternative
perspective and the whole timethey weren't the problem, it was
something else.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat and what you're noticing
with the clients you work with?
Joanna Lilly (28:15):
Yeah, and I think honestly a lot of it has to do
too with and this is a trend,more so that I've seen, probably
in the last year or so, isyoung adults that are coming to
me that are on a lot of meds.
I mean not just like, oh, youhave one antidepressant or one
anti-anxiety, it's like, holyshit, you're on five different
(28:36):
meds and I'm not a psychiatrist.
So I'm going to be the first tosay like I am out of line to
judge anything and I usuallyknow you're not much.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (28:45):
No, you're not, you are not,
actually, no, so we don't needto hear any of that verbiage on
you, girl, because you are.
This is in your wheelhouse.
This is in your wheelhouse tobe able to discuss this with the
patients and the parents withthe patients and the parents
(29:07):
100%.
Joanna Lilly (29:07):
Thank you for giving me that.
Um, all right, so what I?
haven't done though, and I willdo moving forward is is, yeah,
um, it just being shocked.
Honestly, like one of thethings is like, can we just talk
about your sleep?
Can we talk about, like your,your diet or your physical
activity?
Because, um, all of that is soout of whack and maybe it is
tied to the meds that you'retaking, but also, do you even
(29:30):
know how you feel?
Because you've been so numbedfor so long and you have no
concept of whether or not a medis really working or not?
And so, and you know again,there are some psychiatrists out
there that do take their timewith clients.
It's few and far between.
So the majority of the clientsthat I'm working with, when they
come to me, they're like, yeah,well, I meet my psychiatrist
(29:51):
once every three months maybe,and it's like, okay, that
person's asking you a couple ofquestions and then they're
making med adjustments and thenthey salute you off and they
might see you again in threemonths.
All of that is to say what theheck is going on.
Can we literally peel all ofthis back?
Just get literally back tobaseline, eat some healthy food,
go out and actually walk, getoff your tech at night, so that
(30:16):
you're actually getting qualitysleep, which you probably
weren't, because you were over,not just overmedicated, but you
were doing multiple AP classes,all these activities and you
were maybe getting three to fourhours of sleep for like years.
Dr Teralyn Sell (30:31):
And how is that going to translate when you
head off to college and nowyou're pulling all-nighters with
your friends, you're going outdrinking, you're doing all the
things that impact your sleepquality and your ability to
function and now you are a hotmess express?
And I do want to bring in toothat the majority of people on
psychiatric medications thisincludes kids.
(30:51):
It's not a psychiatrist that'sdoing this, it's it's their
family doctor that's doing.
That's at least starts it.
They at least started with thekids and then maybe a
psychiatrist will.
Typically, I'm going to soundlike a real bitch, but
psychiatrists end up to me, endup stacking, like that's where
the med stacking happens.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (31:12):
That's where the polypharmacy comes in.
Dr Teralyn Sell (31:14):
Is when the family doctor's like well, this
is getting a little bit beyond.
You know what I can do.
So I think we need a psychreferral.
And then the med stackingstarts.
And then you know, the parentsfeel like they're doing the best
thing for them.
The kid again has no agency,they have no say in any of this,
they're just doing what thedoctors and the parents say they
(31:36):
need to do.
To quote unquote feel better,but they're like I don't even
know how to feel better.
If you're interested, you shouldlook at Peter Bregan's work on
spellbinding, because that'swhat happens.
You don't know what you'refeeling or believing, but you're
believing that whatever it isyou're taking is helping you.
But it's really harming you andyou can't see it, but I bet
(31:57):
parents can see it, which is whythey drag them back into the
psychiatrist's office again andthen they're put on a new psych
med, you know, in addition towhat they have.
Or they're staying up too latebecause their sleep hygiene is
shit and they're on the phoneall the time, and now they're
giving a sleep aid to go to bed,you know.
So this is the, this is thestacking, and this is where it
(32:18):
begins in childhood, and then itjust keeps going.
And I think if I were a parentof a kid who was on one med, let
alone a stack of meds, Iprobably wouldn't have them go
to college because of all theother factors that are involved
in what college life is like.
And if you're a parent sittinghere going, well, yeah, I did
(32:40):
that in college, but I have agood kid and my good kid isn't
going to go out yes, they are.
Yes, they are Good kids.
Do that too, right.
Like this isn't.
I think if you're going offthinking about what your kid is
going to do delusionally in yourmind as a parent, you need to
pull that shit back and go.
(33:01):
What did I do when I was 18?
I did some crazy ass shit.
Like probably did some illegalshit.
Like seriously, your kid'sgoing to do the same stuff.
They're just not going to tellyou.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (33:14):
She is on a high horse right now and
that thing is like galloping allover the fucking place right
now.
Dr Teralyn Sell (33:19):
Sorry, I'm feeling it this morning.
About this college discussion,yeah, but can we talk a little
bit about parents who stilltrack their kids in college?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (33:30):
Yeah, okay.
Tell us about it, joanna, tellus about it.
Joanna Lilly (33:35):
I think it goes back to the earlier conversation
about that like summer beforeright.
Are we really worried about thekid being successful on campus?
Are we really worried about thekid being successful on campus?
Are we worried that the parentis uncomfortable with the
separation from their kidbecause they have been so overly
involved?
I would say that I it's all toocommon.
(33:55):
I mean, the connection betweenyoung adults and their parents
right now is actually it's just,it's foreign to me.
Like I reflect back on when Iwas in college.
I love my parents dearly and Iwas so excited to get out and
have space.
Dr Teralyn Sell (34:11):
Yes, me too.
Joanna Lilly (34:12):
I mean, I had a cell phone.
believe it or not, it was likeyou know the old, like Nokia
phone, I mean, it was likeFacebook was just starting, it
was like a whole thing.
So I, my parents, didn't havethe ability to track me.
In fact, my dorm room still hadlike a rotary phone in the room
and so that was like their bestway of reaching out to me, and
(34:33):
it would be like hey, if Joannahasn't called in a week, we
should probably just call tomake sure she's alive, and I'd
be like signs of life.
I'm good, We'll talk later.
So to me, I'm.
I'm really having to try toempathize where parents are
coming from, and and becauseit's just such a different um
generation than when I was inschool, I struggle with it
(34:55):
because I know that there's it,just it.
It completely disrupts theability for individuation.
If your parents texting yousaying why are you at this
location, when you are puttingyourself in social situations
that are a stretch for youbecause you're in college and
(35:15):
this is what college is aboutnow you're flooded with all the
feelings.
I'm being watched, I'm feelingguilty.
I'm ashamed I should be studying.
You know, like all the things,it provides the space to hover
and it also kind of, in a likeicky way, has the parent a
little too involved in theirchild's college experience.
Dr Teralyn Sell (35:38):
I also think it gives the kids a very false
sense of safety and security.
Correct.
I also think it gives the kidsa very false sense of safety and
security.
Correct, Because what I hear iswell, I do it to make sure
they're safe.
What are you going to do,Joanna?
Your kid is four hours away atcollege.
Well, I want to make surethey're not on the side of the
road.
It's going to take you fourhours to get there?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (35:57):
Are you flash?
Are you just going to blinkyour eyes and you're in Mankato
like four states away, like thisdoesn't fucking work this way.
Dr Teralyn Sell (36:05):
And I tell them if you, want to make sure your
kid is safe, then you talk tothem about how to be safe on
campus.
You don't just track them onyour phone as if that's going to
be the safety net of their life.
I did ask my son this becausewhen he went off to college, I'm
like hey, what if I tracked youon your phone?
He said you will not, you willnot do that.
(36:26):
And I'm like you're right, Iwill not, I'm not going to do it
.
I've never tracked my kids, nomatter what.
But he fricking, studied abroad, he and we.
He still wouldn't let us trackhim on his phone, even when he
was abroad, you know, and I'mlike that's fine, but if shit
goes down, he's like you're notthe first person I'm going to
reach out to if shit goes down.
And I'm in Spain, I'm likeyou're right, one hundred
(36:48):
percent, you're correct.
So I think it's that falsesense of resiliency, false sense
of safety and security and,believe it or not, parents are
just fucking nosy.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (36:59):
It goes back to that, so OK.
So if you, joanna, as we wrapup here because I'm going to cut
, I'm going to cut in timebecause this is where I'm going
to be the responsible one inthis.
Oh, you're welcome.
There's the mom and me going.
We only have a few more minutes, girls, so we have to wrap up,
okay, otherwise we won't havetime for the next guest and all
the things we have to do.
Dr Teralyn Sell (37:18):
I have a lot of feelings on this stuff.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (37:21):
Okay, so if you could share as we wrap
up what are the?
What are the one or two mostimportant things that you could
share to either either kids,like the students themselves who
are in this, going through it,and maybe something to the
parent as well, that you wantthe world to know, that maybe
they don't know that they reallyneed to just fucking try to get
(37:42):
consider and get curious aboutwhat would that be?
Joanna Lilly (37:45):
Okay For the student themselves.
Just pause.
Just pause, assess your, yourown situation, your situation,
your wants and needs.
Because if you are, if you'remotivated, you want to go to
school and you want to know you,like you, have a clear path of
what it is that you're going todo.
I mean, I'm not going to stopyou, but if you have any type of
(38:06):
gut check, that's like I don'tactually even know if I want to
go to college.
High school's been reallystinking hard socially,
academically, whatever.
Just pause and decide what youwant to do and then honestly to
kind of piggyback on that, justfrom the parent perspective, if
your kid is saying I'm not sureI want to go to college right
(38:27):
now, let them ride that out.
Oh my gosh, please do not forcea square peg in a round hole
because you, as a parent, areuncomfortable with your
reflection as a parent.
If my kid's not at insert nameof fancy school, then it's a
reflection of me as a parent.
If my kid's not at insert nameof fancy school, then it's a
reflection of me as a parent.
You need to check yourselfbecause this isn't about you.
(38:49):
This is about having raised ahealthy human who actually
self-advocates, is pursuingwhatever path they want to take,
and if that's in college, great.
If it's not, that's also okay.
So this is the perfectopportunity to, just like on
both sides, figure out whatmakes sense and support it.
I love that.
(39:09):
I love that.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (39:10):
That's perfect.
Let's wrap up on that, becausethat was a bull right on the end
.
Yeah, you guys better checkyourself before you wreck
yourself.
Okay, all right, everyone, weare your whistleblowing shrinks
(39:35):
and if you've stayed to the endhere you know we are the guests
of truth podcast.
That's right.
We rotate in that role.
All right, everybody, you knowthat you can find us anywhere
that you listen to podcasts.
We are on all of the socialsand if you want to tell us your
Gaslit Truth stories, you canget to us at
thegaslittruthpodcast atgmailcom.
You can also DM us on any ofour socials.
Thank you, everybody forstaying to the end and that's a
(39:56):
wrap.
Well, hey everyone, you have been
gaslit into believing that yourmental health is fully prepared
and ready for college.
We are your whistleblowingshrinks, dr Terrellin and
therapist Jen, and you've landedhere on the Gaslit Truth
podcast.
Today we have a guest with us,joanna Lilly.
Joanna is a nationallycertified counselor.
(00:22):
She's the owner of LillyConsulting, where she has been
helping young adults find mentalhealth, substance use and
wellness resources since 2016.
She's known to be fiery Well,thank goodness that's why she's
on the show, right, but it comesfrom a place of being
passionate and caring for clientwell-being and betterment.
She also hosts the Success isSubjective podcast.
(00:44):
Welcome to the show, joanna.
Thanks for having me.
Dr Teralyn Sell (00:47):
Yeah, you know the college thing is something,
because I said to Jen before yougot on, I said I don't always
agree with that.
College is.
I think you said in your thingcollege is a scam.
I don't always agree with thatand I hope that we can get
talking about that part of ittoo.
But I think this is a reallysmart conversation to have,
(01:11):
especially at this time of year,because there's going to be a
lot of kiddos heading off tocollege who are probably not
mentally prepared for that.
So I think I'd like to kickthis off by asking a question
what does it mean to be mentallyprepared, or prepared, mental
health, prepared to go tocollege?
(01:31):
Like what do you see in yourclients and what does that mean?
Joanna Lilly (01:35):
Yeah Well, I mean actually a lot of at least the
information that you see outthere that folks will focus on.
Is this difference betweensomebody who's college capable
and somebody who's college ready?
And I think what we're leaninginto is this like college
readiness piece, which is reallylike do you have the ability to
regulate?
Are you okay with discomfort?
Can you handle like puttingyourself in situations that will
(01:59):
come across as naturallyterrifying, or like eliciting
fear, which is normal?
But how do you respond to that?
Right?
Do you have the anxiety that'sspiking so much that you can't
even lean in to show up forclass or to feel comfortable
meeting your new you know dormmate or like whatever the case
may be?
So I think, kind of going backto what you were just talking
(02:22):
about, there's so manyindicators of what looks like
whether or not somebody isreally going to be able to hash
it out, and for me, the biggestpiece really are, like the most
common thing that sticks out isif a parent was very, very
involved in making sure thatthat young person was like to a
(02:43):
T right, all T's, all I's, youknow, t's crossed, i's dotted
with all things that were takencare of, not just with mental
health but with school executivefunctioning related social
activities just very managedbecause there's no room for that
discomfort, the unraveling, theability to test it out.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (03:02):
You're the helicopter parent,
essentially the unraveling theability.
You're the helicopter parentessentially yeah, no, the
lawnmower parent.
Dr Teralyn Sell (03:08):
I heard about the lawn.
Do you know what the lawnmowerparent is?
It's the parent who gets infront of the child and mows
everything down for them first,instead of the helicopter, and
I'm like sometimes I was alawnmower parent okay, so this
is what you're describing.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (03:23):
So this is kind of like a red flag
almost for you.
It's kind of an indicator ofthat readiness.
Not being there socially,emotionally, mentally is when
there was someone else in theirlife who did all the things for
them yes, was there to protectthem through everything, help
them through all their emotionalturmoil, constantly being
(03:43):
involved, not letting them haveany independence.
I mean, essentially you don'tlearn how to do anything by
yourself when someone does itfor you.
So that's kind of one of thoseindicators that you notice.
Joanna Lilly (03:53):
Yeah, and I think this time of year, right, we are
spot on.
I am speaking with so manyparents I can't even tell you
how many right now that are like, even though I just paid the
deposit officially and we'vesigned up for orientation here
in the next like three weeks,the parents like I really don't
think they're ready.
And it's like, well, first ofall, we've got two kind of
(04:14):
competing perspectives, right,we've got this young adult who
thinks that they might be ready,which in reality there's
probably a lot of like growinganxiety again around whether or
not they think that they canhandle it.
But again, that's probably alot of like growing anxiety
again around whether or not theythink that they can handle it.
But again, that's also aconflict too, of like well, this
is what I'm supposed to do,because what you know, society
and my friends and everybody'sbeen telling me that this is the
path I have to take.
And then the parent that issecond guessing their child's
(04:38):
readiness and a lot of thathonestly again has to do with
like, what has their involvementbeen in making sure that their
child's okay?
And so now here we are,literally 11th hour, and we are
questioning whether or notthey're ready, and to me I'm
like trust your gut, parent Doyou think some of that is
parents questioning if they'reready for their child to leave.
(05:01):
You know I appreciate you askingthis.
I do think that there's acomponent to that right.
Parental Terry, were you ready?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (05:08):
Come on, terry, I know this is we're
going to personalize this forjust a second.
That is so real right.
Dr Teralyn Sell (05:14):
Yes, yeah it is but but.
But I do have to say I, I'm afirm believer in cause.
I do have parents, you know.
We have parents that talk to usand just friends with kids that
are in high school or beyond,and I tell them, like if you
don't believe your kid can, thenthey can't.
You have to stand behind themand believe that they can do
(05:37):
something with them without youdoing it for them, because
you're going to disable them atthe same time.
If you think that they can'tand you lead with that type of
fear with your kid, like I knowI can't, I'm so scared and all
these things, like you thinkit's all in your head, but it's
actually in your behavior too asa parent, and I think that's
where the lawnmower parent comesin or the helicopter parent is.
(05:58):
That's the belief that yourchild actually can't without you
, and I think that's aproblematic space for parents to
be in.
As someone whose kids have goneto college right, only one went
off to college, only one leftwhat do you?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (06:15):
see in your practice with this, joanna,
and actually with answeringthat question too, can you share
a little bit with our audienceabout the type of population
that you work with, the agedemographic that you work with,
the areas of focus that you have, because this is an area of
expertise?
Joanna Lilly (06:31):
for you.
Yeah, so I'm a therapeuticconsultant.
I work with young adults.
All of my clients are betweenthe ages of 18 and 29, the
majority of which are reallycollege age, so 18 to 23.
And I say from that and I keepa small caseload, so it's
manageable.
But the majority of my caseloadare literally young adults that
attempted college, whether theywere there for a day, not an
(06:55):
exaggeration a week, you know,like a couple semesters.
My work and all of its mentalhealth related, it's not that
they weren't academicallycapable.
I mean, certainly a lot of themended up failing their classes,
but that had everything to dowith the rest of their wellbeing
, impacting their ability to bea student.
But that said, like my job isto kind of help unpack what just
(07:20):
happened.
What do you need?
How do we get you the supportthat's going to basically get
you back in a position to feelconfident in yourself as a
person pursuing some sort ofpost-secondary path, if that's
what you even want to do?
Because sometimes the unpackingis why was I even forcing this
square peg in a round hole?
I don't actually even want acollege degree.
(07:42):
I want to do somethingcompletely different that
doesn't require a degree.
So, anyways, it is the joy, butit's also a double-edged sword
of really helping a young adult.
And then obviously we'redealing with the entire family
too, because there's a lot ofpressures depending on where
they're from, the expectationsaround kind of post-secondary
pursuits or even stigmatizationaround mental health.
(08:05):
I mean, it's a lot to deal with, but that is my full-time
business is working with thispopulation of young people.
Dr Teralyn Sell (08:14):
Yeah, why do you think so many young people
in high school you may or maynot know this end up getting
medicated during high school?
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
Like because I feel like somuch of that is driven by
parents and fear and because Ithink when you head into college
(08:35):
and you're medicated, that is arecipe for disaster right there
, because, again, nobody'smonitoring your medications and
you're now taking them sometimesand you're also taking them and
using, maybe, drugs likelyalcohol, all these things.
So where do you think that thatmight originate?
(08:56):
I'm just curious because I knowwe're all in the same field
here.
Where do you think theprescribing of teenagers?
Where do you think that comesfrom and what are your thoughts
on that?
Joanna Lilly (09:09):
I'm going to look to both of you to chime in on
this, for sure, but I think frommy lens what I see is we are an
over-medicated society ingeneral the US, right.
We are high pressure, and ifyou can't keep up, whether it's
anxiety, whether it's depression, whether it's ADHD, there's a
(09:30):
pill for that.
And so we go, and this is likeso archaic in the way that I'm
saying it, but it's like parentsseek support from professionals
.
So, whether it's yourpediatrician, your primary care
physician, or we have theability to seek out a
psychiatrist.
Please help my child.
Here's the symptoms.
Let's just get a quick pillright.
(09:50):
Let's fix this and move on.
But the problem is that we'realso dealing with so many other
layers of complexity, likedeveloping brains.
I mean just like in general,what our society is dealing with
.
Right, we've got like economicstresses.
We've got like economicstresses, we've got like
political stresses.
We've got like all thesedifferent things that are
(10:10):
impacting our young people asthey're growing up.
But just kind of as a medicalmodel, we really are focused on
this, like, well, just take apill and you'll feel better.
Dr Teralyn Sell (10:20):
Well, also, I think, just to chime in here,
that there's also this messagingto parents too If you don't,
your child's going to take theirlife Like, if you don't
medicate them, then they willfor sure take their life.
And how dare you not help themin that particular way and which
ends up disabling them again?
(10:42):
Yeah disabling them again fortheir future.
So I think it's kind of a hotbutton right now and I'd like to
kind of profile the kid whomight be medicated.
When I say medicated, in thissense I'm talking about
antidepressants, anti-anxietymeds.
When I kind of profile it,knowing what I know, what I see
(11:04):
is high performing studentsbeing medicated because of that
extra pressure and the beliefsof who they need to be and the
continuation of that.
That's what I see.
The kids that are in I got totake all AP classes, I got to be
the best, I can't miss out asingle test All of that those
(11:24):
kids are the ones that,seemingly to me, end up getting
medicated the most, and also theimpoverished students.
I think those are the twobiggest students, in my opinion,
that end up getting medicatedthrough their life at an early
age.
Because it's accessibleMedications are accessible to
(11:50):
everybody.
But that's what I see,especially the ones that are
going off to college, is it'salways the high performers that
end up in therapy.
Joanna Lilly (12:00):
It's weird to me, it's super weird and, honestly,
those are the clients that I'mworking with.
They are high performers,they're the ones that don't make
it past the first day.
They're like, oh my gosh Right,like what's happening, and so
that fear of failure too is just, you know, the stakes are too
high.
Dr Teralyn Sell (12:17):
Yeah, and the lack of resilience yeah, a
hundred percent.
The ability to bounce backafter something quote, unquote
bad, because bad is a perceptionright After something bad
happens, the ability to bounceback is not there.
It's just a colossal failure inthat first week I keep thinking
(12:40):
about, because I had a kid whowent to college in 2020,
graduated 2020, went off tocollege that fall.
The social structures of thattime were so different and I
don't know if you see adifference in social structures
still beyond that, because the18, 19, 17, 18, 19-year-olds are
(13:02):
not my forte, except for beinga parent, right?
Do you see that the socialstructures have still changed?
Yeah, yeah Could you talk alittle bit more about that.
Joanna Lilly (13:12):
They were in middle school right During that
time.
And so these are, yeah,absolutely formative, social,
like actual formative yearswhere you're supposed to make
these social connections whichwe know is still tumultuous,
because that's how it is inmiddle school but here you are
studying at home, completelyisolated, and we're also just
(13:34):
ramping up a lot of thetech-specific addiction or kind
of tech-connected behaviors, andso it just created even larger
of a rift in terms of theability to connect.
I mean, the expression how tomake friends is so real right
now and I, you know, I obviouslymy lens is so focused on the
(13:54):
college age, but I think it'sreal for high school students
now too, depending on where theywere kind of developmentally.
As you know, covid was playingout.
It really had a significantimpact and we've been saying it
and I say we like otherconsultants, other mental health
professionals who've just kindof been talking about it it's
like we weren't just in it rightthen with the young people that
(14:15):
were like just graduating highschool or college.
It's like, can you imagine thisnext wave of young people that
were, I mean, even babies,babies born at that time and how
that was impacting them?
So I mean we're talking an 18year kind of impact.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (14:33):
Right.
Dr Teralyn Sell (14:34):
Go ahead yeah.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (14:35):
I?
I was just thinking about theidea of academic readiness
versus, like, social readinessand emotional readiness.
Okay, so, yes, I'm thinkingabout being back forever ago in
high school, right, and when Iwas being prepped, prepped for
college, right, taking that damnACT test repeatedly which I
(14:59):
fucking did miserable on.
I think it took three times.
Hence why I couldn't get into agood college, because that's
all that mattered, right?
Was that stupid multiple choicetest that I suck at taking.
Okay, not to get on my soapboxwith that, but damn so much
disappointment.
Joanna Lilly (15:14):
So much self-disappointment.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (15:17):
No, you're not going to get into the
schools.
It was just so ridiculous.
Anyways, I kept thinking abouthow prepped I was for academic
readiness, but I was not preppedfor like the social, emotional
readiness part, like theheaviness of what, like this
environment is going to do, thepressures that's going to happen
when you go from you know, likea very structured school day
(15:41):
that's eight hours long andevery hour or two hours,
depending on what kind of blockschedule or not you have where
you're rotating through versushere you go.
We're going to sign you up forsome classes.
You're going to sit in thishuge lecture hall for an hour.
You're going to have threetests the entire semester.
We're going to throw the lowestgrade out.
Two are going to count.
(16:02):
So if you suck at like certaintypes of test assessments,
you're screwed.
We're going to put a ton ofpressure on you because you're
left to your own devices tofigure out what to do socially.
You're going to startexperimenting with alcohol, like
I think about, like thedisordered eating that was
occurring right in my life atthat time, but that wasn't
something that was beinghighlighted right for me.
Like I was academically ready,I was told that, yep, straight A
(16:25):
student honors student,national Honors Society, number
11 in my class of 100 andsomething I had all the academic
accolades I was set, but from amental health standpoint I was
a mess, but that wasn't assessed.
Dr Teralyn Sell (16:42):
No, but in today's world these kids are
going from in-person now rightto a lot of the coursework that
they have is online.
They're doing it right in theirdorms, which doesn't allow for
that social interaction yetagain, except for sitting in
your dormitory.
So, if you can if you guys arelistening here if you can have
(17:05):
your kids, take as manyin-person classes as possible.
Don't start doing the onlinestuff right away.
It's a recipe for disaster,especially if they had trouble
socializing in high school.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (17:16):
Do we assess, though?
Do we assess kids for themental preparedness, the mental
health readiness?
We do academic stuff untilwe're blue in the face.
Tell us what you think aboutthat, Joanna, because you're
shaking your head, we don't.
Joanna Lilly (17:31):
And it literally is left up to a parent to be
essentially the final gatekeeperto say I don't think you're
ready.
Which then, if schoolclassmates, the community, right
, like all the messaging hasbeen you're quote, unquote,
ready, all tied towards thatacademic side of things, then
(17:52):
all of a sudden we've got thisparent-child conflict too, and
parents tend to be the ones that, at least again anecdotally,
what I'm seeing parents feelreally uncomfortable holding
that boundary and saying I don'tthink you should go, and then,
and then, unfortunately, againanecdotally, they're sending
them off.
They don't last very long.
And now we're, now we'redealing with such a like a mound
(18:14):
of shame.
It's not even that you justdidn't do well academically,
it's I didn't make friends, it'sthis was my whole identity,
this is I was supposed to be acollege student and what the
heck just happened.
So now I've got this likeimposter syndrome that I'm
wrestling with, which, even ifthey are medicated, now we're
just like really, we're reallyhaving to untangle the mess that
(18:36):
just played out, which is whoam I, what do I need?
And there's just so much workthat has to be done.
And then you've got the likeparent dynamic there too,
because there's some guilt.
Dr Teralyn Sell (18:52):
I mean, it's a lot, you know, I think about,
cause I I have a recent collegegrad and I'm I'm kind of going
back to his readiness forcollege.
To me it was not an academicreadiness at all.
Okay, he made it through highschool just fine.
And I tell people this all thetime you don't have to be a
straight A student.
That is not the predictor ofyour outcome in college.
It is not.
Whether you take AP courses isnot the predictor of your
(19:16):
college outcome.
The predictor is your socialskills.
And I will tell you that my sonwas an incredibly social kid,
very social, not to the point oflike parties and drinking and
stuff like that, but he wassocial.
He was an athlete, he wasinvolved in teams and when he
went to college he said he, heset forth his uh, like, this is
(19:38):
my goal and he said I'm going totake advantage of any
opportunity that comes my way.
And that's the kind of kid heis.
And he did he Everything heopened up.
And so when I work with theyoung adults that are in college
, I tell them join a club,socialize, do something outside
of academics.
You have to, you have to learnhow to do these things.
(20:00):
And when they start doing thosethings, guess what?
They come back to session.
They're like that was amazing.
And I have new friends now.
I'm like, yeah, it's prettyincredible that the only friend
that you thought you were goingto have was your roommate.
And when that doesn't go well,that roommate situation, when
that doesn't go well, everythingfalls apart if you have nothing
(20:22):
else that you're building.
So I wish there were moreconversation Right now.
I think the conversation aboutcollege readiness is one it's
going to cost too much andyou're going to be in $200,000
worth of debt and you shouldn'tdo that, which is not the case
in state schools, by the way.
And number two, it's allacademic readiness.
(20:44):
How did you score on that ACTwhich they took away in our
state for the majority of thestate colleges?
How did you do in that and whatare your academics like?
Did you take any AP classeswhich don't even fucking matter?
They don't matter, yeah, yeah.
So how do you assess how?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (21:02):
do you assess?
That's what I was going to say.
How do you assess this?
Like what?
Well, how.
Joanna Lilly (21:05):
How do you?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (21:05):
assess this.
How do people do this?
Dr Teralyn Sell (21:13):
Yeah, I mean, if I had a magic wand, what we
would do, I think oh, she'sdoing the therapist magic wand
thing right now, do it.
Do it, go ahead, go Sorry.
Joanna Lilly (21:19):
Okay, if I had a magic wand, I think the way that
we would truly assess it iswhether or not a young adult.
I mean, I think to your pointit is about can you socialize,
do?
you have any type of socialskills period and I don't want
to minimize that sometimes thatthat's harder for neurodiverse
young adults, but there's got tobe effort put in right.
(21:41):
Do you understand what it meansto connect with others?
The other piece I think that'simportant is adversity.
Have you experienced adversity,not managed by your parents,
but you yourself actually workedthrough, because that is a real
life skill that needs to?
I mean, we're talking aboutresilience, we're talking about
(22:01):
grit.
That's the kind of stuff thatcollege students need to have.
But if you haven't experiencedany adversity because your
life's been pretty protected upuntil the point that you
literally graduated high school,college is going to be a rude
awakening, rude, rude awakening.
And then the other thing Ithink that's important is
there's got to be balance.
We can't continue to put somuch pressure on the academic
(22:24):
side of things or the scores orthe accolades.
I think it's important to havebalance right To be engaged in
activities, to have someartistic right, tapping into
artistic skills, not just likescience.
Even though I know STEM's beenpushed so hard, I think we're
still human, like we need toactually have creative people
(22:45):
that are doing things.
All this is to say to I thinkthe biggest piece is that we can
also ask do you even want to goto school?
Because if you don't understandthat college is optional higher
education, then the idea ofcollege can wait.
It's not that it's off thetable, like I think that's.
(23:05):
The other thing too, is I getparents will say, well, if they
don't go to college now, they'llnever go.
And it's like what, what areyou drinking?
That's not true.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (23:15):
Like truly bullshit.
Kool-aid is going through yoursystem.
I'm pretty sure not like 50, 60years yet of their lives where
they can go do it Right, oh myit Right, oh my goodness.
Dr Teralyn Sell (23:28):
Yeah, it definitely looks different.
It definitely looks different,for sure it does.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (23:32):
But think about how, like I think
about that, like if I would havewaited, like, think about how
things could have looked just alittle different if you would
have waited a bit Financially.
Think about that for a hotsecond.
How could I have actually donedifferently Finance wise?
Because that was horrific,right, working the multiple jobs
, knowing that even now, yes,I'm going to be in debt till I
(23:58):
probably die with loans becauseI have so many.
When I think about that idea,think about it financially.
If you wait, think about social, emotionally and how growth
changes.
If you wait, shit, think aboutthe central nervous system
developing and it's not going tohappen until you're like 23
people, right?
So you just threw yourself intothis.
Some stressors that peoplecan't handle at 18.
Right, well, that's stillfucking developing.
And then, unfortunately, a lotof times and we were going to
(24:21):
talk a little bit about this tooand we touched on it but a lot
of these kids go to school andthey end up having to be
medicated because they can'tmake it through the stress of
school.
Dr Teralyn Sell (24:30):
Yeah, and I say , if you're going to go to
college and you have to medicateyour way through college, then
you need to actually think isthis the right?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (24:41):
thing for me right now.
Think about that.
That's our whole lives, that'smany people's lives.
Our clients medicate their waythrough shit marriages, shit
jobs, shit circumstances.
Dr Teralyn Sell (24:50):
Don't start doing that as a young person, to
medicate your way through ahard time.
You've got an opportunity toaccept it, change it or leave it
.
Essentially, put up or shut up,that's what it is.
But you have to be able toidentify that and put words to
it and step out of your ownguilt and shame about it and
(25:11):
make that adult decision if it'snot right for you, or figure
out how to be resilient andbounce back.
Figure out how to discuss thiswith your instructors, right?
This is what I told my kids,both of them, all the time.
I'm like get to know yourinstructors, you'll be fine.
Get to know them, but what doesthat mean?
You got to know how tosocialize.
(25:32):
You got to know how to talk.
You got to know how to expressthese opinions to yourself,
right?
Or to somebody else.
And I do think that all thequest for diagnosis and all
these things when kids areyounger is not as helpful as
people think as they grow up,because then we become
(25:54):
lawnmowers and helicopters.
So the ability to believe thatyou can do something is stronger
than anything else.
The disbelief that you mighthave and I'm going to say this
very controversially, because wewere pushed to get my son
diagnosed at a very young agekindergarten first, second grade
(26:16):
and we didn't.
We took him a different routeand it turned out that he had
something entirely different,but we never told him.
We never told him that, liketutoring and whatever, he still
had to do all the work, but henever knew.
(26:45):
So he didn't know that that wasputting him behind.
He didn't know that what helearned was he had to learn
different ways to adapt and howto be resilient with what it was
, and I think that was the thingthat helped him the most,
instead of leaning on the ideathat I have this diagnosis right
, therefore I can't right andtherefore I won't.
(27:08):
And I think I mean that's acontroversial thing to say it's
not universal, that that wouldbe great for every kid, so I'm
not saying that at all.
But what I'm saying is I testedit out and it was helpful for
us and for him, and now he's asuper successful human being,
which is amazing.
Um, screw you, kindergartenteacher, but anyway.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (27:31):
Well, and that ties a little bit into
being like gaslit by providersor by labels.
And you, you said you know, likewhat it does, yes, like
academic teachers, the systemitself.
When you, um, when, when you,when you completed your form
that we asked our guest to fillout on the show you said
something about these youngadults that you're working with
now and that they feel as thoughthey've lost trust in this
(27:58):
system in general, and whetherit's minimizing feelings,
whether it's like they start tolike, get up alternative
perspective and the whole timethey weren't the problem, it was
something else.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat and what you're noticing
with the clients you work with?
Joanna Lilly (28:15):
Yeah, and I think honestly a lot of it has to do
too with and this is a trend,more so that I've seen, probably
in the last year or so, isyoung adults that are coming to
me that are on a lot of meds.
I mean not just like, oh, youhave one antidepressant or one
anti-anxiety, it's like, holyshit, you're on five different
(28:36):
meds and I'm not a psychiatrist.
So I'm going to be the first tosay like I am out of line to
judge anything and I usuallyknow you're not much.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (28:45):
No, you're not, you are not,
actually, no, so we don't needto hear any of that verbiage on
you, girl, because you are.
This is in your wheelhouse.
This is in your wheelhouse tobe able to discuss this with the
patients and the parents withthe patients and the parents
(29:07):
100%.
Joanna Lilly (29:07):
Thank you for giving me that.
Um, all right, so what I?
haven't done though, and I willdo moving forward is is, yeah,
um, it just being shocked.
Honestly, like one of thethings is like, can we just talk
about your sleep?
Can we talk about, like your,your diet or your physical
activity?
Because, um, all of that is soout of whack and maybe it is
tied to the meds that you'retaking, but also, do you even
(29:30):
know how you feel?
Because you've been so numbedfor so long and you have no
concept of whether or not a medis really working or not?
And so, and you know again,there are some psychiatrists out
there that do take their timewith clients.
It's few and far between.
So the majority of the clientsthat I'm working with, when they
come to me, they're like, yeah,well, I meet my psychiatrist
(29:51):
once every three months maybe,and it's like, okay, that
person's asking you a couple ofquestions and then they're
making med adjustments and thenthey salute you off and they
might see you again in threemonths.
All of that is to say what theheck is going on.
Can we literally peel all ofthis back?
Just get literally back tobaseline, eat some healthy food,
go out and actually walk, getoff your tech at night, so that
(30:16):
you're actually getting qualitysleep, which you probably
weren't, because you were over,not just overmedicated, but you
were doing multiple AP classes,all these activities and you
were maybe getting three to fourhours of sleep for like years.
Dr Teralyn Sell (30:31):
And how is that going to translate when you
head off to college and nowyou're pulling all-nighters with
your friends, you're going outdrinking, you're doing all the
things that impact your sleepquality and your ability to
function and now you are a hotmess express?
And I do want to bring in toothat the majority of people on
psychiatric medications thisincludes kids.
(30:51):
It's not a psychiatrist that'sdoing this, it's it's their
family doctor that's doing.
That's at least starts it.
They at least started with thekids and then maybe a
psychiatrist will.
Typically, I'm going to soundlike a real bitch, but
psychiatrists end up to me, endup stacking, like that's where
the med stacking happens.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (31:12):
That's where the polypharmacy comes in.
Dr Teralyn Sell (31:14):
Is when the family doctor's like well, this
is getting a little bit beyond.
You know what I can do.
So I think we need a psychreferral.
And then the med stackingstarts.
And then you know, the parentsfeel like they're doing the best
thing for them.
The kid again has no agency,they have no say in any of this,
they're just doing what thedoctors and the parents say they
(31:36):
need to do.
To quote unquote feel better,but they're like I don't even
know how to feel better.
If you're interested, you shouldlook at Peter Bregan's work on
spellbinding, because that'swhat happens.
You don't know what you'refeeling or believing, but you're
believing that whatever it isyou're taking is helping you.
But it's really harming you andyou can't see it, but I bet
(31:57):
parents can see it, which is whythey drag them back into the
psychiatrist's office again andthen they're put on a new psych
med, you know, in addition towhat they have.
Or they're staying up too latebecause their sleep hygiene is
shit and they're on the phoneall the time, and now they're
giving a sleep aid to go to bed,you know.
So this is the, this is thestacking, and this is where it
(32:18):
begins in childhood, and then itjust keeps going.
And I think if I were a parentof a kid who was on one med, let
alone a stack of meds, Iprobably wouldn't have them go
to college because of all theother factors that are involved
in what college life is like.
And if you're a parent sittinghere going, well, yeah, I did
(32:40):
that in college, but I have agood kid and my good kid isn't
going to go out yes, they are.
Yes, they are Good kids.
Do that too, right.
Like this isn't.
I think if you're going offthinking about what your kid is
going to do delusionally in yourmind as a parent, you need to
pull that shit back and go.
(33:01):
What did I do when I was 18?
I did some crazy ass shit.
Like probably did some illegalshit.
Like seriously, your kid'sgoing to do the same stuff.
They're just not going to tellyou.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (33:14):
She is on a high horse right now and
that thing is like galloping allover the fucking place right
now.
Dr Teralyn Sell (33:19):
Sorry, I'm feeling it this morning.
About this college discussion,yeah, but can we talk a little
bit about parents who stilltrack their kids in college?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (33:30):
Yeah, okay.
Tell us about it, joanna, tellus about it.
Joanna Lilly (33:35):
I think it goes back to the earlier conversation
about that like summer beforeright.
Are we really worried about thekid being successful on campus?
Are we really worried about thekid being successful on campus?
Are we worried that the parentis uncomfortable with the
separation from their kidbecause they have been so overly
involved?
I would say that I it's all toocommon.
(33:55):
I mean, the connection betweenyoung adults and their parents
right now is actually it's just,it's foreign to me.
Like I reflect back on when Iwas in college.
I love my parents dearly and Iwas so excited to get out and
have space.
Dr Teralyn Sell (34:11):
Yes, me too.
Joanna Lilly (34:12):
I mean, I had a cell phone.
believe it or not, it was likeyou know the old, like Nokia
phone, I mean, it was likeFacebook was just starting, it
was like a whole thing.
So I, my parents, didn't havethe ability to track me.
In fact, my dorm room still hadlike a rotary phone in the room
and so that was like their bestway of reaching out to me, and
(34:33):
it would be like hey, if Joannahasn't called in a week, we
should probably just call tomake sure she's alive, and I'd
be like signs of life.
I'm good, We'll talk later.
So to me, I'm.
I'm really having to try toempathize where parents are
coming from, and and becauseit's just such a different um
generation than when I was inschool, I struggle with it
(34:55):
because I know that there's it,just it.
It completely disrupts theability for individuation.
If your parents texting yousaying why are you at this
location, when you are puttingyourself in social situations
that are a stretch for youbecause you're in college and
(35:15):
this is what college is aboutnow you're flooded with all the
feelings.
I'm being watched, I'm feelingguilty.
I'm ashamed I should be studying.
You know, like all the things,it provides the space to hover
and it also kind of, in a likeicky way, has the parent a
little too involved in theirchild's college experience.
Dr Teralyn Sell (35:38):
I also think it gives the kids a very false
sense of safety and security.
Correct.
I also think it gives the kidsa very false sense of safety and
security.
Correct, Because what I hear iswell, I do it to make sure
they're safe.
What are you going to do,Joanna?
Your kid is four hours away atcollege.
Well, I want to make surethey're not on the side of the
road.
It's going to take you fourhours to get there?
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (35:57):
Are you flash?
Are you just going to blinkyour eyes and you're in Mankato
like four states away, like thisdoesn't fucking work this way.
Dr Teralyn Sell (36:05):
And I tell them if you, want to make sure your
kid is safe, then you talk tothem about how to be safe on
campus.
You don't just track them onyour phone as if that's going to
be the safety net of their life.
I did ask my son this becausewhen he went off to college, I'm
like hey, what if I tracked youon your phone?
He said you will not, you willnot do that.
(36:26):
And I'm like you're right, Iwill not, I'm not going to do it
.
I've never tracked my kids, nomatter what.
But he fricking, studied abroad, he and we.
He still wouldn't let us trackhim on his phone, even when he
was abroad, you know, and I'mlike that's fine, but if shit
goes down, he's like you're notthe first person I'm going to
reach out to if shit goes down.
And I'm in Spain, I'm likeyou're right, one hundred
(36:48):
percent, you're correct.
So I think it's that falsesense of resiliency, false sense
of safety and security and,believe it or not, parents are
just fucking nosy.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (36:59):
It goes back to that, so OK.
So if you, joanna, as we wrapup here because I'm going to cut
, I'm going to cut in timebecause this is where I'm going
to be the responsible one inthis.
Oh, you're welcome.
There's the mom and me going.
We only have a few more minutes, girls, so we have to wrap up,
okay, otherwise we won't havetime for the next guest and all
the things we have to do.
Dr Teralyn Sell (37:18):
I have a lot of feelings on this stuff.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (37:21):
Okay, so if you could share as we wrap
up what are the?
What are the one or two mostimportant things that you could
share to either either kids,like the students themselves who
are in this, going through it,and maybe something to the
parent as well, that you wantthe world to know, that maybe
they don't know that they reallyneed to just fucking try to get
(37:42):
consider and get curious aboutwhat would that be?
Joanna Lilly (37:45):
Okay For the student themselves.
Just pause.
Just pause, assess your, yourown situation, your situation,
your wants and needs.
Because if you are, if you'remotivated, you want to go to
school and you want to know you,like you, have a clear path of
what it is that you're going todo.
I mean, I'm not going to stopyou, but if you have any type of
(38:06):
gut check, that's like I don'tactually even know if I want to
go to college.
High school's been reallystinking hard socially,
academically, whatever.
Just pause and decide what youwant to do and then honestly to
kind of piggyback on that, justfrom the parent perspective, if
your kid is saying I'm not sureI want to go to college right
(38:27):
now, let them ride that out.
Oh my gosh, please do not forcea square peg in a round hole
because you, as a parent, areuncomfortable with your
reflection as a parent.
If my kid's not at insert nameof fancy school, then it's a
reflection of me as a parent.
If my kid's not at insert nameof fancy school, then it's a
reflection of me as a parent.
You need to check yourselfbecause this isn't about you.
(38:49):
This is about having raised ahealthy human who actually
self-advocates, is pursuingwhatever path they want to take,
and if that's in college, great.
If it's not, that's also okay.
So this is the perfectopportunity to, just like on
both sides, figure out whatmakes sense and support it.
I love that.
(39:09):
I love that.
Therapist Jenn Schmitz (39:10):
That's perfect.
Let's wrap up on that, becausethat was a bull right on the end
.
Yeah, you guys better checkyourself before you wreck
yourself.
Okay, all right, everyone, weare your whistleblowing shrinks
(39:35):
and if you've stayed to the endhere you know we are the guests
of truth podcast.
That's right.
We rotate in that role.
All right, everybody, you knowthat you can find us anywhere
that you listen to podcasts.
We are on all of the socialsand if you want to tell us your
Gaslit Truth stories, you canget to us at
thegaslittruthpodcast atgmailcom.
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Thank you, everybody forstaying to the end and that's a
(39:56):
wrap.
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