Three therapists pull back the curtain on an uncomfortable truth: the mental health industry often keeps us trapped in cycles of symptom management rather than helping us truly thrive.
"The Capacity Expert" Raquel Hopkins joins Dr. Tara Lynn and Therapist Jen to challenge mainstream mental health narratives that have created an emotionally fragile culture. With her unique background transitioning from corporate HR to therapy, Raquel brings a refreshingly critical perspective that questions the fundamentals of how we approach mental wellness.
Together, they explore how we've confused normal human emotions with mental illness, why gaslighting exists in all human relationships, and the danger of creating perpetual therapy clients instead of resilient individuals. "Your emotions are just internal data," Raquel explains, "not facts and not justification for how people should respond to you."
The conversation dives into controversial territory, questioning whether childhood exploration should be the default starting point in therapy and challenging the notion that our nervous system is always right about perceived threats. They discuss how the mental health industry has inadvertently contributed to a culture that rewards emotional fragility rather than building capacity to navigate life's inevitable challenges.
This episode will make you question everything you've been told about mental health and therapy. Whether you're currently in therapy, considering it, or work in the field yourself, these perspectives offer a much-needed counterbalance to prevailing narratives that have dominated the mental health conversation.
Ready to develop true resilience rather than perpetual coping mechanisms? Listen now and discover how to build the capacity to navigate life's complexities without becoming dependent on therapy or pathologizing normal human experiences.
Are you tired of being gaslit and want to DEEP THROAT some more truth? We want to hear from you! Message us your gaslit stories at thegaslittruthpodcast@gmail.com
While you are at it, Follow us on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube @thegaslittruthpodcast.
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Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, everybody, welcome to the Gaslit Truth
Podcast.
I'm therapist Jen here with DrTara Lynn.
It is a Friday right now in themorning when we are recording
this and I just want everybodyto know the struggle is really
fucking real this morning for us.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
It is I mean, it's an overthink Friday, but we're
trying to figure out how tostart the show today, so you
know this big, huge likeproduction team that we have in
the background that tells us howto do stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
They are on holiday today, so we're going to wing it
.
But before we talk about ourguests and what we're going to
talk about today, we got to talkabout Dr Terrell Lynn's book
that she wrote, because she'skind of a big deal.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Oh, she's got her book up.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
See the jacket.
There you go.
So your best brain book isavailable on Amazon, and if you
want to learn how to change yourbrain and change your life,
this is the book for you.
And so to in the spirit oftoday's episode, I am going to
refer everyone to chapter two,which is called change is coming
.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Hang on, hang on, yes , one moment, page 17.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yep, yep, yep, everything you want is on the
other side of fear and uh, sowe're going to be talking about
change.
We're specifically going to betalking about changes that need
to be happening in the mentalhealth system.
Um, with our special guest, soyeah, we are with uh.
That in mind, you've been gaslitinto believing the mental
health space will help youthrive.
(01:26):
We are your whistleblowingshrinks, dr Tara Lynn and
therapist Jen, and this is theGaslit Truth Podcast, and we
have a special guest today andI'm going to bring her in right
now.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
She's coming.
There she is.
Oh slot, she's coming, put herback.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
She's coming For those of you watching this on
YouTube.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I'm telling you we're trying so hard today.
There she is.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Alright, you tell us who this woman is and why she's
so awesome so yes, first thing Iwant to say is I found her on
TikTok one day scrolling throughand I was like who is this
person talking about mentalhealth in all the ways I wish
every mental health practitionerwould talk about mental health.
(02:16):
Please welcome to the show,Raquel Hopkins.
Yay, I feel like we're smokingall day.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Everything this morning from you guys is just so
.
It just has me pumped.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I am pumped because whenever we come across, First
thing, some of everything goingon.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
This is my type of people.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Thank you, Welcome to the fold.
Welcome to the fold Raquel.
So Raquel is a wife, mom, an HRprofessional that's interesting
, Did not know that.
Fold Raquel.
So Raquel is a wife, mom and HRprofessional that's interesting
, Did not know that.
Entrepreneur and therapist.
So basically everything whorefers to herself as the
capacity expert on her socialmedia platforms and she is a
disruptor in the mental healthspace and she is in the right
(03:00):
place today to talk about that.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
And calls out how the industry, the mental health
industry, keeps people stuck incycles of managing symptoms and
coping rather than thriving, andI cannot wait for this
conversation.
Welcome, Raquel.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I love the word disruptor.
I love the word disruptor.
That to me is.
I wish that, could that like,I'm like she's, she's got to
come on Like I.
I love that.
I love that word.
I'm like I should.
God, I should have used thatword in some of my stuff.
Like such a good word.
I love it.
Right, and, and that's reallywhat we're talking about today
(03:39):
Right Is we're?
So we are gaslit.
The world is gaslit intobelieving that this mental
health space which we are all in, for everyone that's listening,
we're all therapists sitting onthis conversation here.
Right?
You're led to believe that thatspace is actually going to help
you thrive, which is notaccurate all the time, is it,
(04:00):
raquel?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
It's not.
It's not Not at all.
I always tell people that thework happens outside in the
streets anyway, like if you'rereally going to grow, you need
to get outside in the streets.
It doesn't necessarily happenin session per se.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
That's true, so I need to know.
This is just so my mind canhave this framework.
You are HR professional andtherapist, which came first HR,
hr, and so how long have youbeen in the therapist space and
why did you get from there tothere?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
So peak of my career, I was working as VP of HR for a
global telecommunicationscompany, and that was back in
2019.
I started making a transitionand I attended a coaching
program and I absolutely lovedit.
I've always enjoyed workingwith people, but I was kind of
over like the business slashpeople aspect because at the
(04:57):
time I didn't have the capacityto navigate both.
It's like oh, people here andthen business here, and I didn't
really know how to merge thetwo.
So when I got into coaching Iwas like I don't know if I'm
going back into HR, but if I dogo back into HR, I had dealt
with so many people issues thatI was like maybe Well, let me,
let me tell the truth becauseI'm not going to gaslight you
(05:17):
guys on your own podcast, Pleasebetter not Let me not lie, let
me tell the let me let me.
I was trying to summarize it, sothe truth is-.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Lightning bolts will come down, just so you know, no
fuckery here.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I was not thinking about going back into the HR
space.
So I was like, well, I don'tknow what coaching looks like,
cause coaching was still fairlynew.
A lot of people weren't talkingabout it, organizations weren't
really talking about coachingback in 2019.
So I felt like I need a backupplan and I didn't necessarily
know what I wanted to do with mylife from there.
So I always tell people when Ican't figure out my life.
(05:53):
I have educastination, so ifI'm studying or reading and it's
not a continuing education, Ido not know what's next.
So I went back to school and Igot a second master's in
clinical mental healthcounseling Not because I wanted
to be a therapist, though,because the other thing is I was
(06:14):
used to living a certainlifestyle too.
I wanted to be able to create apath for myself, but I felt
like the mental health wouldreally complement my background,
and the conversations werebecoming more and more and more.
Conversations were becomingmore and more and more, and then
, when I got in the program, Iwas like what the heck is this
In terms of what was beingtaught versus how I was
interpreting the informationfrom the textbooks and then
paying attention to whatmainstream media was saying.
(06:37):
So I got I guess I started aprogram in 2020.
I graduated it in 2022.
I decided not to get my licensebecause, at the time, I was then
working at a softwaredevelopment company and I had a
portfolio of leaders and my rolewas 270 people.
You are supposed to help themdevelop their capabilities.
Well, they were acquired.
(06:59):
I didn't want to do traditionalHR work per se, because I enjoy
the people development aspect.
Didn't want to do traditionalHR work per se because I enjoy
the people development aspect.
So I was like well, I guessI'll go back and take the state
exam and become a therapist andshit, I didn't know what I was
doing.
Like, again school, again, letme go take a test.
I took the test, I passed itand I was like, well, let me
(07:21):
figure out what I'm going to do.
And that's how I got here, notbecause I wanted to be a
therapist.
So when they try to gaslight meon social media, I'm like I
never wanted to be a therapist.
Anyway, I'm just using thetitle because people listen to
experts.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Yes, oh my gosh, yes, can I?
I just want to say welcome tothe fold one more time, because
you know, jen and I, we talkabout how we got here to being
therapists and whatever, andeveryone expects this squishy
story of self-awareness.
(07:57):
Or I met a therapist once thatchanged my life I wanted to help
people.
I wanted to help None of that.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
None of that is true, I don't even like people as
much.
I'm really fucked up because Ihave a therapist.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I really like them that much, I just wanted to keep
a business going.
Those are the best therapists,the ones that really don't like
people.
That sounds like you.
I have a green room where I'mlike here, I'm compassionate.
And then in my where I'm likehere, I'm like, I'm
compassionate.
And then in my head I'm likewhat did you just say?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Those are the best people.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I think those are the best therapists ever.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Terry's trying to build a business right.
Like your, start was businessbuilding.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
And.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I just wanted to be Clarice from Silence of the
Lambs and work in a prison andknow people's brains, and so
neither of us really cares somuch about being martyrs and
helping people.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
And I think we need more of that.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Here's to your point, raquel, when you talked about
Terry and I deal with this a lot, I think Terry even more so
than I do, because she has herdoctorate and I don't have my
doctorate, right, but peoplewill pull her apart, but it's
like, it's like a, it's like asplit space.
People will pull you apartbecause you're a doctor and how
could you say these things butat the same time, people will
(09:10):
listen to you because you haveyour doctorate.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So it's like this weird fucked up I got a third
one.
Though I got a third one.
Oh, there's another one.
Okay, yeah, the last one is, ifpeople don't like what I'm
saying, they'll say but you'renot a real doctor, you know to
to basically diminish, you knowwhat I've, what I've been saying
?
So it's, it was.
It's very fascinating.
(09:35):
And if you guys haven't runacross her, well, tiktok, cause
I don't.
Is that where you were on first, were you or was?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
it TikTok and then has.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
One moment Just putting my doctor coat on, there
you go.
How's that?
How's that?
Looking here, I'm a doctor.
One moment, there you go.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
In a world where you can be whoever you want to be.
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
See this?
Wait, can you see that?
Can you see that, raquel?
Not an MD, Not an MD.
Wear that shit girl.
Not an MD.
I see that.
That MD.
You might want to get you oneof these.
Feels real good.
Okay, carry on all right.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
So some of the, some of the stuff if you guys haven't
checked out her tiktok I thinkit was the very first video that
I saw I sent to Jen immediatelyand I said I want her on the
podcast and she goes, reach out,and I was like man to get
another therapist.
That is kind of blowing the lidoff of traditional mental
health.
(10:35):
And you just said it now, likewhen you were in school taking
these classes, you had enoughcritical thought at that point,
you know, because you'd been inthe, you'd been in the real
world working with real peopleand real problems in HR.
You had enough criticalthinking to be like what is this
bullshit that we are being soldin the school?
(10:57):
Like, seriously, but there's somany people that just kind of
lock their lock, step their wayright into.
You know all this.
And I saw I just saw a post thatyou step their way right into.
You know all this.
And I saw, I just saw a postthat you had done on CBT.
You know, and just be like thisis not the end, all be all of
everything.
So, yeah, what did it feel likefor you to be in that space?
Cause I'm going to guess thatyou may have been the lone wolf
(11:20):
essentially in this space oflearning Like what is this?
What was that like for you?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I struggle.
I struggled tremendously, somuch so that in the classrooms,
you know, I became the personthat was just challenging
thought, just to challenge, butit really didn't make any sense
to me Especially so.
Let me go back a little.
So I remember in undergradright, when you had older people
coming back because now theyhad raised the kids and now they
(11:47):
wanted to why are?
those people take life soseriously, like what's your deal
?
And then I became that personright when I went and got my
master's.
I'm reading every textbook andI'm like, well, this definition
of mental health doesn't alignwith what we're talking about in
the course like and what we'reputting out in mainstream.
So it was really really hardfor me.
And then just like basicconcepts like I'll give you one
(12:10):
that really bothered me as a asa as a black woman, because
everybody within my community isnow going to therapy- right
which.
I think is great.
I think it's great, I believein therapy wholeheartedly.
But the data right.
When you present someone datalike correlation doesn't equate
to causation and if you're onlypulling data from places with
(12:31):
low socioeconomic status, itdoesn't pull the requails and
those of the worlds, and I thinkthat data has the ability to
create a sense of inferiority.
So, like, all of that stuff forme was just like a lot and I'm
like, okay, this is a socialscience, you have to be okay
with complexity.
I remember listening toconversations like I would see
(12:52):
stuff on social media and Iwould say where did people get
this information from?
Because we learn about humandevelopment, right, we learn
that there are pros and cons toa two-parent household versus a
single, but nothing ever saysthat this is bad, this is
dysfunctional, this makes thiswrong and somehow we've taken
that thought process ofunderstanding humans to have
(13:17):
these matter-of-factconversations to where
everything about being human isnow pathologized and I'm like I
don't know which way to go,because this is insane.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
When you're talking, the first thing I think about is
and I don't know your opinionon this, so I might be throwing
something out that you actually,that has come from this world,
that you like, but I think ofthat fucking ACE score that you
like, but I think of thatfucking ACE score.
I think of that right away.
(13:50):
And all of the people that Imeet with who are like I've had
the ACEs assessment done and myACE score is so high and
therefore and they have alreadyin their brain they're fucked,
they're never going to getthrough what they've got in life
, everything is pathologizedbecause of the fact that I have
been through traumas, because ofmy socioeconomic status,
(14:10):
because of my one parenthousehold, because I have a
parent who is in prison, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
And they come and this hassiloed them into pathology.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah, and hopelessness, and hopelessness.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Hopelessness, right.
And then I'm like how do wehave all of this awareness
around mental health, what thenumbers keep rising with mental
illnesses and all?
I'm like that just doesn't makesense, even just like down to
the basics in terms of how weuse mental health versus mental
illness, right, I'm like we allhave mental health.
When people say like I can'tthink of statements right now at
(14:48):
the top of my head, but I'mlike we all have mental health.
We don't all have mentalillness.
We could all live with one ifwe put depression, you know, in
that same, but we all havemental health.
What are we talking about?
Like, mental health is a tool,it's a vehicle that you use.
There are seasons where you mayhave to protect it, but that's
not a space that you want tostay in long-term, because if
(15:10):
you very basic words how youthink, feel and function, that's
what your mental health is.
If you're protecting thosethings, do you want to stay
thinking the same feeling, thesame function, the same way,
when everything around you isconstantly changing?
And in my mind I can't rememberI saw a definition in the
program and it said optimization.
(15:31):
It was within the word mentalhealth and I was like
optimization.
Well, I clearly have cuteverybody off in my life.
I'm trying to move away fromjobs.
I hate people.
At this point, I don't think Ican optimize in a bubble.
I was like, oh shoot, so I hatepeople.
At this point, I don't think Ican optimize in a bubble.
I was like, oh shoot, so I gotit wrong too, because I had
become the queen of protect yourpeace, protect your mental
(15:52):
health no new friends.
But I was silently suffering ina lot of ways too, because I
hadn't learned how to navigatelife or build the capacity to
navigate, like a sense ofcomplexity and just people and
what it means to be human.
So, and then I it was anotherthing, cause there are a few
things that stood out to me andI was like this isn't.
(16:13):
It was like, well, mentalhealth experts are not mental,
not experts in mental health.
And I was like, well, what theare we there?
And then, like, following that,it said, well, you are.
Well, mental health care is notsupposed to create dependence.
I was like, hmm, well, what arewe experts in then?
Helping people navigatetransitory issues that have the
(16:35):
ability to plague their mentalhealth?
And I was like oh, that's justlife in general.
If you move, you go to college,you go, your kid goes from
second grade to third grade, youget divorced, you get married.
Those are the things that wehelp people, because we know
that at some point you're gonnastruggle with your mental health
, by its very nature of youbeing human.
Yes, yes, why did wede-stigmatize mental health?
(16:57):
Why is there shame aroundmental health?
If you just take the basicterminology of what the word
means, we were supposed tode-stigmatize struggle, like the
challenges that you would have.
We were supposed tode-stigmatize things that
actually should have shamearound it the word mental health
.
There should be no shame aroundit, because no one does not
(17:20):
have mental health.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Right, yeah, that's yeah, yeah.
So, and I'm a I know you getflack right, like on your um you
like I thought you would couldshare with us.
The biggest area that you seemto get a bunch of flack on your
socials for is when you I know,cause there's a few like pick
one.
I was like I should haveprepared you with this question
Like pick, the one thing thatpeople keep like poking at you
(17:44):
for and what you're sayingyou've talked about this before
too because it's this idea ofmental health is just mental
health, by the nature of being ahuman and living and
interacting with yourenvironment at all, like any
interaction you have right,there's going to be likely some
kind of mental health reactionthat you have right.
So I know you've talked aboutthis, but I'm just curious to
(18:05):
know if that's something thatyou get a lot of flack for, or
there's another area that's evenbigger on your social.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So I said that gaslighting was normal, okay,
and people did not respond tothat.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Okay, can you give some context?
Raquel, Can you give somecontext of what you were talking
about during that?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yes, so people are going to lie, cheat, steal, just
do all of the things.
That's what makes us human.
Manipulate, yeah, yeah.
Manipulate your kids,manipulate, right, they will
manipulate you right.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And you manipulate them right back.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
You can.
My 10-year-old tries togaslight me at least once a week
, right, oh, that's it Wow.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
At least once.
My 11-year-old does it multipletimes.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
You know, some of the things that we're doing today,
people have always done.
We just have not hadterminology for it.
And I think the terminology isgreat right, because it's a tool
, it gives us a sense ofunderstanding.
But when people say peopleintentionally do it, no, so that
was one.
Gaslighting is normal andpeople were like well, you're
(19:22):
victim shaming people.
I'm not victim shaming people.
We all have been gaslit.
And to think that you're notgoing to manipulate you, whether
it's intentional or not, itdoesn't really matter, because
(19:47):
you cannot tell me that my truthis not my truth.
Like, unless I still have somework to do, whether it's to
build my confidence, self-trust,my self-esteem is low.
So I try to get people to focusmore so on your internal world,
because, again, I always saythat they're universal truths.
Like people cannot do what youdo not allow them to do.
(20:08):
So let's take ownership for thethings that we do allow people
to do, and then we won't be soupset or like hold this, have
this chip on our shoulder forpeople doing things that are
expected Now, whether it's rightor wrong, and someone, and then
they will go to the extreme.
They will say well, what do yousay if someone like tries to
(20:28):
like run you over with a carLike who I?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
didn't, I didn't.
Does that happen on the regular?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I would consider that abnormal.
Then we can probably talk abouttraumatic Like to me, like we
have to bring like they do theybring like to me, like we have
to bring like.
They bring in extremes they doyeah, it's the extremes, and the
other one is narcissism.
Right, everybody isnarcissistic.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
I think that we all have narcissistic traits because
yes, we did a whole episode onthat one and I I went through
the whole dsm and, yep, I'm anarcissist yeah, for sure like
my, my thinking with that isright.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Let's just say someone really has like NPD,
right, like if you knew it, oreven if you're in a relationship
with someone and you're reallylike they are narcissistic.
There are two pieces to me thatto that like I don't hear
people say that I survivedsomeone that lived with
depression or schizophrenia,because if you actually deal
(21:27):
with someone that lives withlike clinical depression or
schizophrenia, it feels, whetherintentional or not, it feels
like they do it on purposesometimes because you're human
too, like it can emotionally andpsychologically cause a lot of
damage.
So I was bringing the awarenessthat let's stop creating these
(21:48):
separations between mentalillnesses because we don't get
to control how people respond tothem.
And from a narcissisticstandpoint, what do you expect
from someone?
If you're saying that I haveNPD, you actually expect me to
have empathy for you.
Do you expect like I just don'tunderstand that, like it sucks
(22:10):
that you've had that experience.
It sucks that people arewilling to intentionally do
things.
I understand those things, butwill we continue?
Because we all can bevictimized, but you don't have
to stay a victim, and that waswhat I was calling out.
I'm never saying that abuse isokay.
I'm never saying that it's okayfor someone to abuse you
(22:31):
emotionally, psychologically,and definitely not physically.
But you cannot be on this earthand not experience emotional or
psychological abuse.
I just do not think that it'spossible.
When your kids even tell youthat you're the worst mom in the
world, that is emotional andpsychological abuse.
I just do not think that it'spossible.
When your kids even tell youthat, like, you're the worst mom
in the world, that is emotionaland psychological abuse.
Depending on how strong yourfoundation is in terms of do you
trust yourself as a mom?
Do you believe in how you showup every day Like you can't, you
(22:54):
can't escape those things?
So I get worked up because Ilove talking about this stuff,
because I'm like this is a lotof bullshit that we're talking
about.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
It is.
I want to add in something heretoo, actually two things.
People with mental healthissues can be just as
manipulative as people who don'tor mental illness, like there
is a there is that feels allinclusive, but there can be a
big level of manipulation thathappens within that population
(23:23):
and so and I think that getsdenied a lot too, Like, oh,
you're saying someone withdepression manipulates 100% 100%
, 100%.
They have to, like we have to,to keep our world going in that
in that way until the until youdecide not to the.
The second thing I wanted tobring up is a really good friend
of mine made a video just theother day about narcissistic
(23:44):
stuff and she said she goes tome.
It was dead on and she goes ifyou're on here, if you're on
social media talking about howyour partner was a narcissist.
Your partner was not anarcissist, because your partner
would never allow you to be onsocial media talking about how
(24:05):
much of a narcissist they are.
And I was like, because she'slike she goes, they would be all
over.
You like you would so much soyou would not say a word.
You know about this and I waslike man, is that not the truth?
you know and I was like, wow, soall these people on here,
narcissist, narcissist system,she's like you wouldn't be doing
that.
If they're actually anarcissist Now could they be a
(24:25):
real shit, human, of course,yeah, of course.
Could your experience with thatperson be different than the
experience with that person haswith someone else?
100%, you know.
So it's just to me it wasinteresting, because that whole
narcissist thing is I'm tired,I'm tired of that.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
It's so exhausting.
You know people are tagging me.
We're like you're not theexpert in narcissism.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I'm like they're not even real classes to be like,
you know, like real teachings.
People do.
They think that we learned someof these.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And you don't.
You don't.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
You learn some of all of it for your awareness, but
there's no officialcertification for becoming
Listen they're too busy fillingus with useless shit about
people getting railroad spikesthrough their brains and
severing their corpus callosum.
Like this is a useless shitthat we learned.
We didn't actually get fullcourses on narcissism or
(25:21):
antisocial behavior or whatcluster B used to be, and that's
all we became experts in Likeit's not a thing Like maybe the
doctor did.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Did you doctor?
Yeah, I did not, she did not.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Jen and I got virtually the same training, and
the only training we got in NPDwas trial by fire because we
worked in the prison.
So that was the only realtraining.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
That was probably the realist training, because there
were actual yes like that 3% ofpeople in the world that really
truly have narcissism.
We got to meet some of them.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So, yes, we did, and it was all but if you don't have
extreme training like that, youknow?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
No, we were like oh, let's become experts in
psychopathology.
Oh, that looks like fun.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Says nobody ever.
Says nobody ever except us,because Right.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Well, and same thing with any personality disorders,
I mean those.
There should be a specializedtraining for that, but there's
really not until later.
But I want to bring in one morething, because I don't know if
this was your experience, but Ididn't learn how to diagnose
(26:31):
people until I was beingclinically supervised.
There wasn't a class for us onhow to specifically diagnose
anyone, Even when in my PhD,when I was taking classes on
testing right, it wasn't ahere's how you diagnose, it was
here's the results of the test,Now go look for the diagnosis.
And I was like so I don't knowif that was your experience, but
(26:52):
I'm thinking like go ahead.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I had a it was this course, abnormal Versus Normal
and I had a really greatprofessor.
You know you always get hit ormiss and one of the things that
stood out cause she.
She talked a lot about the DSMand she used to say that, um,
cause, I'm not anti the DSM, Ilove a good framework.
Right, and framework in thesense of because you had three
(27:15):
bad days, it does not mean thatyou're depressed, right.
And if you look at the DSM, itdoes offer some form of
structure.
And she used to say you reallywant to pay attention to how
many symptoms.
They say, like what thetimeframe is, and I think that
people have just X those thingsout.
So that wasn't.
She didn't necessarily teachhow to diagnose, but she brung
(27:38):
that to your awareness that youwant to pay attention to the
timeframes, you want to payattention to the symptoms,
because it's easy for us todefault and say that we have
something or to adopt a label.
So that helped me to be moremindful in terms of what I was
looking for.
But we also know that the rulesare different everywhere, right,
(28:00):
like in Texas we can diagnoseyou and then in other states you
can't diagnose.
So there's the requirementsacross the board in different
states are just so wacky and allover the place that you just
know what you're getting ingeneral.
So that was my experience.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah, and that's interesting and I want to bring
this up too, because so manypeople talk about I'm just going
to say depression, right, andso they're like I have
depression and I want to offerthis to people.
That's not a clinical diagnosis.
Every person has depression.
Every person goes throughdepressive states.
The clinical diagnosis would bemajor depressive disorder.
(28:40):
There's no depression as adiagnosis in the DSM.
There just isn't.
But all treatment is basicallyfor major depressive disorder,
which the majority of peopledon't have.
And so even when people talkabout medications and the
(29:01):
over-medicating of the Americansociety which is, I believe, to
be very true they argue with melike these save lives for those
that are seriously depressed andwhatever, and I'm like, but
most people just have depression, which is not even a
diagnosable condition.
It's a major depressivedisorder.
If we're splitting hairs hereand I think that happens a lot
(29:23):
because of psychological speak,right, we have so much
psychological speak.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's consecutive.
I can have four or five baddays and then my kid wins his
soccer tournament, and then I'mriding off a high for three days
because we're just excited andthen, before you know it, the
reset, the cycle starts over.
And that was the piece is theconsecutive timeframe that
people tend to miss.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And it takes a lot of work and time to, as a
therapist or as a like I'm goingto say, a prescriber of any
sorts to it.
We're all giving diagnosesright.
The story matters, and not themost immediate, immediate recent
story, but the whole storymatters.
But it takes time to figure outthat story.
(30:11):
It's not a quick 20 minutes orI meet you once, I give you a
couple assessments and I knowthat whole story.
It actually takes quite sometime to get to know that, which
I think is great.
When you see people that spendI mean they can be meeting with
people for months and months andmonths and months as
practitioners and they stillhave these like kind of general
diagnoses on there, because it'slike to put to slap something
(30:32):
on there that says bipolar orsays major depression.
You've got to really make surethat you've got that history
there to back it and understandit.
They lie too.
That's the only thing.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
They lie?
No, they don't, didn't we just?
Speaker 1 (30:46):
go over that a second ago, okay, but here's the thing
that, when you say, when we arehooked to everybody today is
you've been gaslighted intobelieving that the mental health
space will help you thrive.
Can you tell us from your lensbecause this is a lot of the
platform that you stand on whatdo you see that's happening, or
what's the thing you don't do inyour practice to stop creating
(31:11):
these forever consumers, thesepeople that stay in therapy
forever?
Because we are in very powerfulpositions with how we present
this and I believe that peoplecome to us like thinking that
this space that we're in isreally going to help you thrive
and it's going to work forever,but you can keep people in this
(31:32):
space forever.
I think that's so unethical.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
People say the conversation that we're having
as professionals, that isunethical.
But to create a sense ofdependency on me as a
professional, that is unethicalOne.
I don't want to talk to you.
Like I have my own friends.
Like I do, I know how to builda community because I've used
these resources in a great wayto where I don't want all of my
(31:57):
clients to be my friends.
Like and I love my clients, likeI really do, cause it's hard to
not you hear all of a person'slife like you liked it, but I
have the ability to move on.
Like nothing lasts forever.
So for me it's it's it'supfront, like the goal is to
position you to liveindependently and autonomously
(32:18):
on your own.
That doesn't mean that you maynot ever return.
That does not mean that, like I, I or someone else will not be
here for you, but it is not tokeep you in here for eight to 10
years because you need it'sthis new thing, this maintenance
therapy.
I don't do maintenance.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Oh my gosh, that's what it is Cause anything
anybody brings up, like you saidearlier, just having life and
interacting with life.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
you will always have something a symptom Always.
You do not need to consult mefor life.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Right and I think that that's kind of what you
speak a lot about on yourplatform is this idea that we
could create this and a lot ofsadly, a lot of people in our
profession.
They do create that space.
It's just like what about Bobon crack right?
Like you've got these clientsthat never, ever, ever go away
because you've taught them topathologize, even like, oh my
(33:13):
gosh, you have grief because youlost your pet and that's that.
We will stay with that for sucha long time, instead of
empowering them to learn, to getthrough it and to know that
this is not.
This is normal.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yeah, Like.
I think the other thing too ispeople are using the gym right
Like therapy, is like the gymfor your mind.
But to exercise like you, yougot to actually like lift the
Like.
You don't exercise in the gymper se.
Maybe you do have thesebreakthrough moments, these aha
moments, but to really take thatand integrate it into your life
(33:49):
, it happens with the peoplethat you would rather eliminate
out of your life, versusfiguring out how to navigate
those situations Like that'swhere you start to truly
integrate the skills and you cansee your capacity being
developed from that standpoint.
I know that for me, I reallyfelt like I needed some.
I was like this is just, thisis not helping me, and I ended
(34:09):
up finding Robert Keegan.
I use all of the things likeEric Erickson's model.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I love it.
What is your theoreticalorientation?
I'm just kidding, we hate thatquestion.
I am eclectic.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
I am eclectic.
Everybody is eclectic One dayyou may get life One day.
You may get my personalexperiences, because I am going
to share, because I find that ithas more humanness.
I'm everything, it just depends.
I'm just not a big fan of Freud.
So yeah, but like Erickson'smodel, like I didn't, you know,
cause we know that life is notlinear, right, like you know,
(34:45):
you go back to that basic stagetrust versus mistrust, and it's
all focused on your caregivers.
I believe that that transitionsinto adult life to where trust
versus mistrust is still verymuch so a new foundation.
The difference is you got tolearn to trust your own freaking
self, right, like it's nolonger about your caregivers
anymore.
And I think that thattransition is very difficult
(35:07):
because, you know, I think aboutthe statement when people say
nobody taught me this.
I'm like did you really thinkthat somebody was supposed to
teach you every fucking thingthat you're supposed to know for
your life?
Like it's not even possible.
It's your life, like how do welearn and grow?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
All right, that's that's the title of your next of
your book, raquel.
Just so you know.
Did you really think everyonewas supposed to teach you every
fucking thing in life?
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I mean, can you Like, should you Really?
No, no, and it's well.
But again that's that victimmentality, because I have
somebody to blame, because Ididn't learn how to navigate
this type of life situation.
My parents didn't teach me that, you know.
But it blows my mind too,because I think you a blueprint
(35:49):
for your entire life.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
So I guess we want to make ready-made, like when I
finished with my children.
You're ready made and youshould be equipped for
everything that you're going toface in life, Like what would be
the point of living Right.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Every day is a brand new day for every person walking
this earth.
How am I supposed to know toteach you everything when I'm
learning today too?
I think we forget that, thatour parents every day of their
life is a new day for them tolearn something, too right.
(36:27):
How are we supposed to justlean on them entirely or be mad
at them or angry at them forwhat they didn't know, is mind
boggling to me, and that kind ofgoes into the space of like
cutting all these people out ofyour life, and I feel like that
can be dangerous for people.
Like, are you going to make yourlife so singularly focused that
you have no interactions withother people that you don't like
(36:49):
?
And I look at it from the lensof me.
I'm like for me it's like thatold school friends and family
plan.
Like, is everybody going to bein that tight circle that gets
all my time and attention?
Are they going to be out hereon the periphery and I get to
choose when I interact with them?
That's how I look at it.
Instead of like, I'm just goingto like cut you out of my life.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
I still do that with my clients.
I love doing that visualization.
Yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
What the U S American surgeons is that we have an
issue with loneliness, and I'mlike you think.
Like you think about what we'reteaching people like loneliness
is an issue.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
We're teaching you to cut everybody out of your life.
That doesn't align.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, anything that causes discomfort because
discomfort is a crisis now it'sconsidered danger is toxicity.
I'm not surprised that we havea lonely loneliness issue.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Right.
Or or therapists being taughtto just align with your clients
and that's it right, like,validate, affirm all those
things like, instead of you know, being a little challenging to
them.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Challenge them just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
but no, no, it's all about just alignment, you know
you two just really reinforce my, my, my thinking on how
important it is to be able tocritically think, like it just
listen to some more episodes.
I'm going to share them.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
We are Inquisition, right, like.
Once we lose that, we arefucked Like may as well go just
be Amoeba living on top of thepond, scum floating around Once
we lose that critical thinking.
And what's cool is you had it.
I think the order you did lifeprobably was really helpful for
you, instead of finishing school, finishing high school, then
(38:38):
starting the degrees inpsychology, right, going in that
order, because I got for me andTerry and I talk about this a
lot, that order, I think kind ofI mean for me, it messed me up,
because then I started rightinto the job and then the job
reinforced everything I learnedin the degree and didn't have
any life.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Well, you know, that's what I wanted to do right
so when I started off a psychmajor, right, but I didn't come
from like a lot.
So I had called the psychperson one day and I just so
happened she answered the phoneand she was like, well, you know
, you're not going to make anymoney with a bachelor's degree
coming out.
I was like, oh, I need tochange my major.
Then she was like I actuallystarted off as an engineer.
(39:17):
And I was like really, and shewas like, yeah, I did engineer
and then I decided to go backinto, so I changed and I was
like I'm gonna be a businessmajor.
They said that I'm good withpeople.
Just somebody family member waslike maybe go in HR.
I'm like okay, great, and thenthat's what I decided to do See
we need.
I wish I would have had someonelike that, like oh, and my dad
was like, I guess, for whatpeople would consider traumatic.
(39:39):
He was like do not do any ofthat stuff.
That got ology behind it.
If you do any ology behind ityou're going to be broke.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
And I was like, well, I guess so my dad told me a
long time ago not to follow mydreams.
I guess this is funny, becausewe were just watching Dino
Hunters the other day and Ilooked at my husband and I said
do you know?
I said, do you know that I wasgoing to be an anthropologist?
Um yeah, Ology, ology, exactly.
(40:09):
My dad when I, when I came tomy dad and I said I've
discovered my major, this is myfreshman year of college, and he
goes yeah, no, that's not goingto be your major and I went
okay, all right.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Your dad had the same thinking that my dad.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Yes, no theology on the end of it Exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
No theology on the end of it.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
That's too funny.
I wanted you had said a fewthings in your TikToks and I
wrote them down, just like alittle more on this, and I wrote
them down just like a littlemore on this.
We have become emotionallyfragile, an emotionally fragile
(40:51):
culture that rewards emotionalfragility, and I would like for
you to expand a little bit moreon that, because to me, that hit
hard, because that's theprotection of your mental health
, that's the reward of beingsick, right Like there's a whole
culture of being mentally illthat is rewarded, especially on
social media.
So, and being fragile and allof that, I would love for you to
(41:13):
just talk a little bit more onthat topic, if you will.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, I think the the emotional piece I believe has
come from at some point everyonesuppressed their emotions and I
don't doctor you can tell methis story but I remember
reading that as early as sevenyears old, no matter what
happens in life, we start tosuppress our emotions.
It's just natural because westart to want to please people.
(41:40):
We want to make people happy.
We don't want to please people,we want to make people happy,
we don't want to hurt people.
So to me, again, that was theabnormal versus normal.
So for you to suppress youremotions is also not because
someone made you do it.
You could be in an environmentto where it magnifies your
ability to suppress.
But to suppress your emotions Iread that it can have.
(42:04):
It starts to happen as early asseven years old.
So I think we've doubled downon.
Your emotions is like thegateway.
Understanding your emotions isthe gateway to having good
mental health, and it's not.
Your emotions is the gateway tounderstanding self and that's
it and how you relate andinteract with the people in the
world around you.
(42:24):
It is internal data, it is nota justification, it is not
evidence for how people shouldbe responding to you, and I
think I see it a lot from an HRstandpoint Right, because
everybody needs a mental healthday.
Our standpoint right, becauseeverybody needs a mental health
(42:44):
day.
You have to walk on eggshellsbefore you can say something,
because did you think about howa person felt?
Like I'm not supposed to, don'tget me wrong.
I'm not saying don't beempathetic towards people, but
that is data for you, and weknow that feelings are not facts
.
Yes, there it is.
I was waiting for it.
Feelings are not facts, so Idon't know, and they're always,
they're fleeting.
I think that it's justinformation.
(43:07):
It's information and we don'tknow how to use information.
And when you don't know how touse information as a resource,
you create a society ofemotionally fragile people.
Some of that shit just does notmatter, like some of it really
just does not matter.
It would be like my son sayingI don't want to go to school.
Mommy, it doesn't matter, likeif you're doing like the first
(43:28):
day, maybe it's like all right,son, I understand that it's
difficult, it's early, YepValidate, it doesn't matter.
Day three it doesn't matter, getyour stuff.
It's time to go to school, son.
And I think that there's nobalance in that right, because
(43:50):
if we were really driving withthe concept that feelings are
not facts, we wouldn't put somuch pressure on those things.
I think the biggest thing isfrom an emotional standpoint.
It's so that you're notreactive, so that you can hold
space for other people, so thatyou can hold space for other
people so that you can holdspace for yourself.
Right, that's all it means.
It's just internal data for you, but somehow we weaponize it
now, because you're making mefeel this way.
(44:11):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no one's making you feel it
Again.
Blame, right, blame is so mucheasier than growth.
Oh, 100%.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
And as you were talking, I was thinking, like
you said, suppress your emotions.
And my brain kept saying sortyour emotions.
Like, sort them throughimportance, right, like, is this
emotion important?
To sort through my emotions andbe like, what is the most
(44:47):
important thing that I need todo right now?
Is it stand here and cry, or isit to, you know, grab the child
or you know whatever?
So I'm going to sort myemotions, you know, and I think
that's appropriate.
Sometimes I mean again, thatwas an extreme example, but I
think we do it a lot, like evenin the workplace like sort
through your emotions here.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
You know you're just receiving constructive feedback
because you're on the verge ofbeing fired if you can't.
And then they take them.
People, what they do is they goout on FMLA, like it's, it's
really, it's really exhausting,like it really is, and the
emotional fragility and I and Itry to stay away from the word
(45:31):
weak, because you just gave agreat example, right Like, am I
going to grab the baby or am Igoing to stand here and cry?
Like, depending on thesituation, the nature of the
situation, sometimes it is I'mjust going to cry because the
baby is safe, because the babyis only crying, right, so I can
have a moment here and I canhave a full blown meltdown and
that's OK.
Well, if the baby is playingwith the socket and pat their
(45:57):
fingers, you don't have time tocry, even though you've been on
for the last 10 hours.
And it's when I say you don'thave time to cry, it's not that
you cannot go handle thatsituation and then go back and
say let me create space or, asyou said, sort through why I
feel so overwhelmed.
And I think that the besttherapist, they truly understand
those things that sometimes youwon't be able to create space
(46:19):
for, whatever those emotions arethat are coming up, but it does
not mean that you don't get thechoice to go back and revisit
those things.
Yes, and that's the partbetween enduring versus pushing
through life.
A lot of people are enduringand pushing through, so I
understand what people aresaying when they say, well, the
generation before us suppressedtheir emotions.
They just didn't create time togo back.
(46:40):
But I also think that thegenerations before us, they had
something that we're losingtoday, which is that sense of
resiliency, and we are doomed asa society, like if this is what
we're going to have, like Imean, just bring the robots at
this point, because humans forno, that resiliency piece is
huge, because being fragiledoesn't allow for resiliency.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
Right Like so you've got a mental health problem.
Because being fragile doesn'tallow for resiliency.
Right Like so, you've got amental health problem.
How are you going to movethrough this?
How are you going to learn fromthis?
How are you going to grow,instead of just being sitting
here and in the state of beingfragile and being rewarded for
(47:22):
that?
You know, and I do think we'redoomed because of lack of
resiliency.
We have to have the ability tobounce back.
There was a really good study.
It was after 9-11 and some ofthe participants not
participants of 9-11, but thesurvivors of 9-11 developed PTSD
(47:43):
and some did not, and so theresearchers wanted to understand
why that was like you wereinvolved in the same horrific
event, but some didn't.
Some thrived, some did not, andthey were talking about
resiliency factors.
They were talking about how youperceived your world before
this happened.
How was your childhood, howyour perception of your
(48:05):
childhood and your resiliencywere kind of dictating whether
or not you would develop PTSD,and I'm like, I believe that a
hundred percent.
Um, you know, there's, there'sa lot of examples in my life
that I can lean on um to to makethat example true, even on a
(48:26):
personal level, and I think ifwe forget about bouncing back,
that's when we're doomed.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
I just had this thought, just listening to you
talk about childhood, because Ihaven't released this video yet.
Because I can handle the smokeand the heat, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
You can throw us in it too, jen, and the heat.
But let's do it.
You can throw us in it too.
Like Jen and Terry said, I haveto do this.
Go check out those assholes.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
I think that, especially when people, when
people are first enteringtherapy, like for the first time
, I do not default to talkingabout your childhood Now.
I expect people to come inbecause that's what they think
they should be doing.
But if we start from yourchildhood, like to me, your
entire childhood could betraumatic, even if you had, like
a good child, because you haveno power, you have no sense of
(49:15):
agency.
So, depending on what aprofessional says in front of
you, every single thing, andbefore you know it, it's almost
like your brain starts toremember and create stories that
did not happen, because youhave no choice as a child.
Whatever your parents say, itgoes and that could be in a very
(49:35):
healthy household.
I'll never forget when I got aclient that was like I had a
really great childhood but itwas too good and I'm traumatized
.
I was like I didn't say it butI was like how does that happen?
Like I do, I have this greenroom that I check into.
Like when people are sayingshit that I think is so fucking
(49:55):
stupid, and I'm like I'm lookingat you and I'm like, yeah, it's
I, shit, I don't know what Isaid but in the back of my head
I'm like what the?
So, you know?
You ask me you're like so whatabout your childhood made it so
traumatic?
And it's like, well, my parentsgave me everything.
Oh, okay, how would you havepreferred for it to be?
(50:18):
Well, I would have preferredfor?
And then you know what peopleare usually saying in that case,
they wanted to struggle.
They want it to know what itwould like to experience
something hard.
Because inherently, we are allwired for growth, even though we
fight to and that's the balanceright we fight to survive daily
(50:39):
, and then we also fight to grow, and some people just fall on
either side.
But did I was thinking I was?
I'm very careful about that,because a person can assume your
whole childhood was traumatic,because you can feel helpless,
hopeless, because you're a kid.
Choice, there's no sense ofagency, yeah, so, um, oh, I have
(51:01):
one for you guys.
So I want to to know yourthoughts about the nervous
system.
Ok, because I think thisconversation, the way that I
understand it, and I could becompletely wrong, but I I think
I found my community here.
So I say that you're, Iunderstand the concept of your
(51:21):
nervous system rememberingthings too, of your nervous
system remembering things tooright, like, I get that, but I
don't think that your nervoussystem controls you in the way
that we have made it out to be.
I think it communicates in thesense of like, right now, your
nervous system is like are thesetwo people in front of me safe?
No different from if I wasstanding in front of a lion
(51:43):
right now.
Right, and I have to going backto that emotional component.
And I have to go back to thatemotional component, right, I
have to be able to check in withmyself, slow down and say, no,
I'm not in front of two lions,this is where, this is where I'm
.
So people are starting to say,like your nervous system knows
good vibes, they know goodpeople.
Well, somebody.
Because, if that's the case,somebody, teach me how to do
that.
Because it does not.
(52:04):
Like, your nervous system isalways scanning for threats.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Like it does not know good vibes.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
If anything, it knows how you do not know how to
handle discomfort anduncertainty and change.
And it's asking you to payattention to what's trying to be
communicated to you, because Ijust feel like that's a big myth
with the nervous nervous system.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
So it's wrong a lot, ok.
Nervous system it's wrong a lot, okay, your nervous system is
wrong a lot.
Like assessing this.
As you know, these are twolions in front of me and you
know you're scared to be on here, whatever it is Like.
Is that actually the truth?
Well, your fear is truthful.
I mean, it's a podcast, it'sthese things, it's people you've
never met before.
But are we going to harm you?
(52:48):
I sure as hell hope not, butyour brain and body are always
searching for threats.
That's your set point of life,that's your caveman brain,
that's your sense of survival.
That's why, when you take awalk and you see a stick in
front of you and your brain goessnake, possibly, you know, and
then, upon further inspection,it's a stick.
(53:10):
You know, I mean, we get itwrong a lot.
But again, this is thataffirmation of no, your body
gets it right every time andit's like but your body gets it
wrong an awful lot.
So what space do you want tolive in, the space of curiosity
about is this right, is thiswrong?
Or are we just going to be likemy body is right all the time
(53:33):
and it's never wrong?
So now I'm scared of everythingand I have anxiety.
And that's just the way it'sgoing to be, and that's who I am
.
I have this thing calledanxiety, and so that's my two
cents on the matter and I thinkthat we have a lot more ability.
Do I think trauma can interferewith that frequency?
(53:55):
I sure do help ourselves to.
I'll say, recalibrate that, youknow that.
Recalibrate that response soit's not so intense or
hypervigilant or whatever.
But you know, I mean when youI'm, I'm in my mid fifties.
So I've of course have beenthrough my fair share of
(54:17):
everything in this world, myfair share of good and bad.
Many people had it way worsethan me.
Many people had it way betterthan me, you know.
But if that were the case, bythe time we are elderly we would
just be hot mess express allthe time.
If only we were always in thisstate of fight or flight and
never assessed.
So I think we also naturallyassess our states of being.
(54:43):
But when you go back into we,we are rewarded for being
emotionally fragile.
That's a weird place to be forthe younger generations to come.
That's where the wholeresiliency comes into place and
curiosity and critical thinkingabout self and environment.
We don't have to be stuck wherewe are you just don't.
(55:08):
And we can move forward and wecan change.
And, yeah, I think we aregetting it wrong and I'm worried
about the future mental healthpeople.
So it's interesting, because Idid not know that you were that
brand new.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
I had no idea you were that brand new, that's why
I was quiet, because I didn'twant people to try to gaslight
me and say she doesn't know whatshe's done.
She knew she's on every CA andI was like well then I finally
was like I don't really care,cause I this stuff.
It just does not resonate.
And it's one thing that say itdoes not resonate it actually
(55:42):
doesn't support what's actuallytextbook either.
Like that's the piece thatreally gets me.
I'm like did we all read thesame fucking book?
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Well, that's because that same books haven't changed
since the thirties and we'relearning the same fucking shit.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
So you know, those have not evolved, the books have
not changed and people sayshe's oversimplifying things,
she's leaving the nuances.
Well, that's where yourcritical thinking should come in
at right.
That's where your criticalthinking should come in, because
I don't know, I think it'sdangerous, especially for the
(56:17):
younger generation, because theywill have these technological
events, like this technologythat they have.
They have language now.
They just have things that wehave not always had, so they are
more susceptible to thesethings.
But I also think that itdoesn't matter what generation,
all generations are picking itup today, which means that we're
(56:41):
passing that down Like I don'tknow.
It's just a wild place to be inand I don't want any parts of
it.
And I started creating contentbecause I was like if my son
ever I just had one at a time Ifhe ever needs therapy, I don't
want him to see some of you, Iwant him to go back to his
normal content and like justlook at my content.
(57:03):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
I find that with both of my kids all the time like,
yeah, I think they might need tosee somebody.
Yeah, no, I don't think so.
I think they're fine, they're.
They're 13 and 11.
They'll fucking figure shit out.
They're all right, like yeah, uh, yeah no, and I, I don't, we
don't disagree that's actually areally good idea for an episode
you just gave us a really goodidea for an episode there,
raquel, because I think that ishuge.
(57:24):
A lot of people would disagreeon that, but I think we're at a
good space to wrap up, becausewe are almost out of time and so
we have to actually put a bowon this shit and wrap it up.
So thank you for being a partof our show.
We're going to have to have youback.
I'm just saying.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
I will come back for you.
I'm like can you send me yourInstagram so that I can follow
you now?
Speaker 3 (57:48):
Like cause.
Speaker 2 (57:49):
I am fans Like I am fans Like I am a real fan now.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
Thank you for being on the show.
We're happy to have youEverybody that has made it
through to the end here we arethe guest lit truth podcast and
we're going to keep that big Iword, which is inquisition, in
the forefront of your brain,because without that, life is no
good.
So do us a favor If you want tosupport us, you can buy us a
coffee, or you can go out andgive us some stars, give us all
the stars.
Make sure you buy Dr Terry'sbook, otherwise we don't want
(58:15):
anything to do with you.
And if you need to send us yourgaslit truth stories, you can
email us atthegaslittruthpodcast at
gmailcom.
We'd
All right, everybody, welcome to the Gaslit Truth
Podcast.
I'm therapist Jen here with DrTara Lynn.
It is a Friday right now in themorning when we are recording
this and I just want everybodyto know the struggle is really
fucking real this morning for us.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
It is I mean, it's an overthink Friday, but we're
trying to figure out how tostart the show today, so you
know this big, huge likeproduction team that we have in
the background that tells us howto do stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
They are on holiday today, so we're going to wing it
.
But before we talk about ourguests and what we're going to
talk about today, we got to talkabout Dr Terrell Lynn's book
that she wrote, because she'skind of a big deal.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Oh, she's got her book up.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
See the jacket.
There you go.
So your best brain book isavailable on Amazon, and if you
want to learn how to change yourbrain and change your life,
this is the book for you.
And so to in the spirit oftoday's episode, I am going to
refer everyone to chapter two,which is called change is coming
.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Hang on, hang on, yes , one moment, page 17.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yep, yep, yep, everything you want is on the
other side of fear and uh, sowe're going to be talking about
change.
We're specifically going to betalking about changes that need
to be happening in the mentalhealth system.
Um, with our special guest, soyeah, we are with uh.
That in mind, you've been gaslitinto believing the mental
health space will help youthrive.
(01:26):
We are your whistleblowingshrinks, dr Tara Lynn and
therapist Jen, and this is theGaslit Truth Podcast, and we
have a special guest today andI'm going to bring her in right
now.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
She's coming.
There she is.
Oh slot, she's coming, put herback.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
She's coming For those of you watching this on
YouTube.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I'm telling you we're trying so hard today.
There she is.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Alright, you tell us who this woman is and why she's
so awesome so yes, first thing Iwant to say is I found her on
TikTok one day scrolling throughand I was like who is this
person talking about mentalhealth in all the ways I wish
every mental health practitionerwould talk about mental health.
(02:16):
Please welcome to the show,Raquel Hopkins.
Yay, I feel like we're smokingall day.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Everything this morning from you guys is just so
.
It just has me pumped.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I am pumped because whenever we come across, First
thing, some of everything goingon.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
This is my type of people.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Thank you, Welcome to the fold.
Welcome to the fold Raquel.
So Raquel is a wife, mom, an HRprofessional that's interesting
, Did not know that.
Fold Raquel.
So Raquel is a wife, mom and HRprofessional that's interesting
, Did not know that.
Entrepreneur and therapist.
So basically everything whorefers to herself as the
capacity expert on her socialmedia platforms and she is a
disruptor in the mental healthspace and she is in the right
(03:00):
place today to talk about that.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
And calls out how the industry, the mental health
industry, keeps people stuck incycles of managing symptoms and
coping rather than thriving, andI cannot wait for this
conversation.
Welcome, Raquel.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I love the word disruptor.
I love the word disruptor.
That to me is.
I wish that, could that like,I'm like she's, she's got to
come on Like I.
I love that.
I love that word.
I'm like I should.
God, I should have used thatword in some of my stuff.
Like such a good word.
I love it.
Right, and, and that's reallywhat we're talking about today
(03:39):
Right Is we're?
So we are gaslit.
The world is gaslit intobelieving that this mental
health space which we are all in, for everyone that's listening,
we're all therapists sitting onthis conversation here.
Right?
You're led to believe that thatspace is actually going to help
you thrive, which is notaccurate all the time, is it,
(04:00):
raquel?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
It's not.
It's not Not at all.
I always tell people that thework happens outside in the
streets anyway, like if you'rereally going to grow, you need
to get outside in the streets.
It doesn't necessarily happenin session per se.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
That's true, so I need to know.
This is just so my mind canhave this framework.
You are HR professional andtherapist, which came first HR,
hr, and so how long have youbeen in the therapist space and
why did you get from there tothere?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
So peak of my career, I was working as VP of HR for a
global telecommunicationscompany, and that was back in
2019.
I started making a transitionand I attended a coaching
program and I absolutely lovedit.
I've always enjoyed workingwith people, but I was kind of
over like the business slashpeople aspect because at the
(04:57):
time I didn't have the capacityto navigate both.
It's like oh, people here andthen business here, and I didn't
really know how to merge thetwo.
So when I got into coaching Iwas like I don't know if I'm
going back into HR, but if I dogo back into HR, I had dealt
with so many people issues thatI was like maybe Well, let me,
let me tell the truth becauseI'm not going to gaslight you
(05:17):
guys on your own podcast, Pleasebetter not Let me not lie, let
me tell the let me let me.
I was trying to summarize it, sothe truth is-.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Lightning bolts will come down, just so you know, no
fuckery here.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I was not thinking about going back into the HR
space.
So I was like, well, I don'tknow what coaching looks like,
cause coaching was still fairlynew.
A lot of people weren't talkingabout it, organizations weren't
really talking about coachingback in 2019.
So I felt like I need a backupplan and I didn't necessarily
know what I wanted to do with mylife from there.
So I always tell people when Ican't figure out my life.
(05:53):
I have educastination, so ifI'm studying or reading and it's
not a continuing education, Ido not know what's next.
So I went back to school and Igot a second master's in
clinical mental healthcounseling Not because I wanted
to be a therapist, though,because the other thing is I was
(06:14):
used to living a certainlifestyle too.
I wanted to be able to create apath for myself, but I felt
like the mental health wouldreally complement my background,
and the conversations werebecoming more and more and more.
Conversations were becomingmore and more and more, and then
, when I got in the program, Iwas like what the heck is this
In terms of what was beingtaught versus how I was
interpreting the informationfrom the textbooks and then
paying attention to whatmainstream media was saying.
(06:37):
So I got I guess I started aprogram in 2020.
I graduated it in 2022.
I decided not to get my licensebecause, at the time, I was then
working at a softwaredevelopment company and I had a
portfolio of leaders and my rolewas 270 people.
You are supposed to help themdevelop their capabilities.
Well, they were acquired.
(06:59):
I didn't want to do traditionalHR work per se, because I enjoy
the people development aspect.
Didn't want to do traditionalHR work per se because I enjoy
the people development aspect.
So I was like well, I guessI'll go back and take the state
exam and become a therapist andshit, I didn't know what I was
doing.
Like, again school, again, letme go take a test.
I took the test, I passed itand I was like, well, let me
(07:21):
figure out what I'm going to do.
And that's how I got here, notbecause I wanted to be a
therapist.
So when they try to gaslight meon social media, I'm like I
never wanted to be a therapist.
Anyway, I'm just using thetitle because people listen to
experts.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Yes, oh my gosh, yes, can I?
I just want to say welcome tothe fold one more time, because
you know, jen and I, we talkabout how we got here to being
therapists and whatever, andeveryone expects this squishy
story of self-awareness.
(07:57):
Or I met a therapist once thatchanged my life I wanted to help
people.
I wanted to help None of that.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
None of that is true, I don't even like people as
much.
I'm really fucked up because Ihave a therapist.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I really like them that much, I just wanted to keep
a business going.
Those are the best therapists,the ones that really don't like
people.
That sounds like you.
I have a green room where I'mlike here, I'm compassionate.
And then in my where I'm likehere, I'm like, I'm
compassionate.
And then in my head I'm likewhat did you just say?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Those are the best people.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I think those are the best therapists ever.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Terry's trying to build a business right.
Like your, start was businessbuilding.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
And.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I just wanted to be Clarice from Silence of the
Lambs and work in a prison andknow people's brains, and so
neither of us really cares somuch about being martyrs and
helping people.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
And I think we need more of that.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Here's to your point, raquel, when you talked about
Terry and I deal with this a lot, I think Terry even more so
than I do, because she has herdoctorate and I don't have my
doctorate, right, but peoplewill pull her apart, but it's
like, it's like a, it's like asplit space.
People will pull you apartbecause you're a doctor and how
could you say these things butat the same time, people will
(09:10):
listen to you because you haveyour doctorate.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So it's like this weird fucked up I got a third
one.
Though I got a third one.
Oh, there's another one.
Okay, yeah, the last one is, ifpeople don't like what I'm
saying, they'll say but you'renot a real doctor, you know to
to basically diminish, you knowwhat I've, what I've been saying
?
So it's, it was.
It's very fascinating.
(09:35):
And if you guys haven't runacross her, well, tiktok, cause
I don't.
Is that where you were on first, were you or was?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
it TikTok and then has.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
One moment Just putting my doctor coat on, there
you go.
How's that?
How's that?
Looking here, I'm a doctor.
One moment, there you go.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
In a world where you can be whoever you want to be.
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
See this?
Wait, can you see that?
Can you see that, raquel?
Not an MD, Not an MD.
Wear that shit girl.
Not an MD.
I see that.
That MD.
You might want to get you oneof these.
Feels real good.
Okay, carry on all right.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
So some of the, some of the stuff if you guys haven't
checked out her tiktok I thinkit was the very first video that
I saw I sent to Jen immediatelyand I said I want her on the
podcast and she goes, reach out,and I was like man to get
another therapist.
That is kind of blowing the lidoff of traditional mental
health.
(10:35):
And you just said it now, likewhen you were in school taking
these classes, you had enoughcritical thought at that point,
you know, because you'd been inthe, you'd been in the real
world working with real peopleand real problems in HR.
You had enough criticalthinking to be like what is this
bullshit that we are being soldin the school?
(10:57):
Like, seriously, but there's somany people that just kind of
lock their lock, step their wayright into.
You know all this.
And I saw I just saw a post thatyou step their way right into.
You know all this.
And I saw, I just saw a postthat you had done on CBT.
You know, and just be like thisis not the end, all be all of
everything.
So, yeah, what did it feel likefor you to be in that space?
Cause I'm going to guess thatyou may have been the lone wolf
(11:20):
essentially in this space oflearning Like what is this?
What was that like for you?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I struggle.
I struggled tremendously, somuch so that in the classrooms,
you know, I became the personthat was just challenging
thought, just to challenge, butit really didn't make any sense
to me Especially so.
Let me go back a little.
So I remember in undergradright, when you had older people
coming back because now theyhad raised the kids and now they
(11:47):
wanted to why are?
those people take life soseriously, like what's your deal
?
And then I became that personright when I went and got my
master's.
I'm reading every textbook andI'm like, well, this definition
of mental health doesn't alignwith what we're talking about in
the course like and what we'reputting out in mainstream.
So it was really really hardfor me.
And then just like basicconcepts like I'll give you one
(12:10):
that really bothered me as a asa as a black woman, because
everybody within my community isnow going to therapy- right
which.
I think is great.
I think it's great, I believein therapy wholeheartedly.
But the data right.
When you present someone datalike correlation doesn't equate
to causation and if you're onlypulling data from places with
(12:31):
low socioeconomic status, itdoesn't pull the requails and
those of the worlds, and I thinkthat data has the ability to
create a sense of inferiority.
So, like, all of that stuff forme was just like a lot and I'm
like, okay, this is a socialscience, you have to be okay
with complexity.
I remember listening toconversations like I would see
(12:52):
stuff on social media and Iwould say where did people get
this information from?
Because we learn about humandevelopment, right, we learn
that there are pros and cons toa two-parent household versus a
single, but nothing ever saysthat this is bad, this is
dysfunctional, this makes thiswrong and somehow we've taken
that thought process ofunderstanding humans to have
(13:17):
these matter-of-factconversations to where
everything about being human isnow pathologized and I'm like I
don't know which way to go,because this is insane.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
When you're talking, the first thing I think about is
and I don't know your opinionon this, so I might be throwing
something out that you actually,that has come from this world,
that you like, but I think ofthat fucking ACE score that you
like, but I think of thatfucking ACE score.
I think of that right away.
(13:50):
And all of the people that Imeet with who are like I've had
the ACEs assessment done and myACE score is so high and
therefore and they have alreadyin their brain they're fucked,
they're never going to getthrough what they've got in life
, everything is pathologizedbecause of the fact that I have
been through traumas, because ofmy socioeconomic status,
(14:10):
because of my one parenthousehold, because I have a
parent who is in prison, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
And they come and this hassiloed them into pathology.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah, and hopelessness, and hopelessness.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Hopelessness, right.
And then I'm like how do wehave all of this awareness
around mental health, what thenumbers keep rising with mental
illnesses and all?
I'm like that just doesn't makesense, even just like down to
the basics in terms of how weuse mental health versus mental
illness, right, I'm like we allhave mental health.
When people say like I can'tthink of statements right now at
(14:48):
the top of my head, but I'mlike we all have mental health.
We don't all have mentalillness.
We could all live with one ifwe put depression, you know, in
that same, but we all havemental health.
What are we talking about?
Like, mental health is a tool,it's a vehicle that you use.
There are seasons where you mayhave to protect it, but that's
not a space that you want tostay in long-term, because if
(15:10):
you very basic words how youthink, feel and function, that's
what your mental health is.
If you're protecting thosethings, do you want to stay
thinking the same feeling, thesame function, the same way,
when everything around you isconstantly changing?
And in my mind I can't rememberI saw a definition in the
program and it said optimization.
(15:31):
It was within the word mentalhealth and I was like
optimization.
Well, I clearly have cuteverybody off in my life.
I'm trying to move away fromjobs.
I hate people.
At this point, I don't think Ican optimize in a bubble.
I was like, oh shoot, so I hatepeople.
At this point, I don't think Ican optimize in a bubble.
I was like, oh shoot, so I gotit wrong too, because I had
become the queen of protect yourpeace, protect your mental
(15:52):
health no new friends.
But I was silently suffering ina lot of ways too, because I
hadn't learned how to navigatelife or build the capacity to
navigate, like a sense ofcomplexity and just people and
what it means to be human.
So, and then I it was anotherthing, cause there are a few
things that stood out to me andI was like this isn't.
(16:13):
It was like, well, mentalhealth experts are not mental,
not experts in mental health.
And I was like, well, what theare we there?
And then, like, following that,it said, well, you are.
Well, mental health care is notsupposed to create dependence.
I was like, hmm, well, what arewe experts in then?
Helping people navigatetransitory issues that have the
(16:35):
ability to plague their mentalhealth?
And I was like oh, that's justlife in general.
If you move, you go to college,you go, your kid goes from
second grade to third grade, youget divorced, you get married.
Those are the things that wehelp people, because we know
that at some point you're gonnastruggle with your mental health
, by its very nature of youbeing human.
Yes, yes, why did wede-stigmatize mental health?
(16:57):
Why is there shame aroundmental health?
If you just take the basicterminology of what the word
means, we were supposed tode-stigmatize struggle, like the
challenges that you would have.
We were supposed tode-stigmatize things that
actually should have shamearound it the word mental health
.
There should be no shame aroundit, because no one does not
(17:20):
have mental health.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Right, yeah, that's yeah, yeah.
So, and I'm a I know you getflack right, like on your um you
like I thought you would couldshare with us.
The biggest area that you seemto get a bunch of flack on your
socials for is when you I know,cause there's a few like pick
one.
I was like I should haveprepared you with this question
Like pick, the one thing thatpeople keep like poking at you
(17:44):
for and what you're sayingyou've talked about this before
too because it's this idea ofmental health is just mental
health, by the nature of being ahuman and living and
interacting with yourenvironment at all, like any
interaction you have right,there's going to be likely some
kind of mental health reactionthat you have right.
So I know you've talked aboutthis, but I'm just curious to
(18:05):
know if that's something thatyou get a lot of flack for, or
there's another area that's evenbigger on your social.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So I said that gaslighting was normal, okay,
and people did not respond tothat.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Okay, can you give some context?
Raquel, Can you give somecontext of what you were talking
about during that?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yes, so people are going to lie, cheat, steal, just
do all of the things.
That's what makes us human.
Manipulate, yeah, yeah.
Manipulate your kids,manipulate, right, they will
manipulate you right.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And you manipulate them right back.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
You can.
My 10-year-old tries togaslight me at least once a week
, right, oh, that's it Wow.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
At least once.
My 11-year-old does it multipletimes.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
You know, some of the things that we're doing today,
people have always done.
We just have not hadterminology for it.
And I think the terminology isgreat right, because it's a tool
, it gives us a sense ofunderstanding.
But when people say peopleintentionally do it, no, so that
was one.
Gaslighting is normal andpeople were like well, you're
(19:22):
victim shaming people.
I'm not victim shaming people.
We all have been gaslit.
And to think that you're notgoing to manipulate you, whether
it's intentional or not, itdoesn't really matter, because
(19:47):
you cannot tell me that my truthis not my truth.
Like, unless I still have somework to do, whether it's to
build my confidence, self-trust,my self-esteem is low.
So I try to get people to focusmore so on your internal world,
because, again, I always saythat they're universal truths.
Like people cannot do what youdo not allow them to do.
(20:08):
So let's take ownership for thethings that we do allow people
to do, and then we won't be soupset or like hold this, have
this chip on our shoulder forpeople doing things that are
expected Now, whether it's rightor wrong, and someone, and then
they will go to the extreme.
They will say well, what do yousay if someone like tries to
(20:28):
like run you over with a carLike who I?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
didn't, I didn't.
Does that happen on the regular?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I would consider that abnormal.
Then we can probably talk abouttraumatic Like to me, like we
have to bring like they do theybring like to me, like we have
to bring like.
They bring in extremes they doyeah, it's the extremes, and the
other one is narcissism.
Right, everybody isnarcissistic.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
I think that we all have narcissistic traits because
yes, we did a whole episode onthat one and I I went through
the whole dsm and, yep, I'm anarcissist yeah, for sure like
my, my thinking with that isright.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Let's just say someone really has like NPD,
right, like if you knew it, oreven if you're in a relationship
with someone and you're reallylike they are narcissistic.
There are two pieces to me thatto that like I don't hear
people say that I survivedsomeone that lived with
depression or schizophrenia,because if you actually deal
(21:27):
with someone that lives withlike clinical depression or
schizophrenia, it feels, whetherintentional or not, it feels
like they do it on purposesometimes because you're human
too, like it can emotionally andpsychologically cause a lot of
damage.
So I was bringing the awarenessthat let's stop creating these
(21:48):
separations between mentalillnesses because we don't get
to control how people respond tothem.
And from a narcissisticstandpoint, what do you expect
from someone?
If you're saying that I haveNPD, you actually expect me to
have empathy for you.
Do you expect like I just don'tunderstand that, like it sucks
(22:10):
that you've had that experience.
It sucks that people arewilling to intentionally do
things.
I understand those things, butwill we continue?
Because we all can bevictimized, but you don't have
to stay a victim, and that waswhat I was calling out.
I'm never saying that abuse isokay.
I'm never saying that it's okayfor someone to abuse you
(22:31):
emotionally, psychologically,and definitely not physically.
But you cannot be on this earthand not experience emotional or
psychological abuse.
I just do not think that it'spossible.
When your kids even tell youthat you're the worst mom in the
world, that is emotional andpsychological abuse.
I just do not think that it'spossible.
When your kids even tell youthat, like, you're the worst mom
in the world, that is emotionaland psychological abuse.
Depending on how strong yourfoundation is in terms of do you
trust yourself as a mom?
Do you believe in how you showup every day Like you can't, you
(22:54):
can't escape those things?
So I get worked up because Ilove talking about this stuff,
because I'm like this is a lotof bullshit that we're talking
about.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
It is.
I want to add in something heretoo, actually two things.
People with mental healthissues can be just as
manipulative as people who don'tor mental illness, like there
is a there is that feels allinclusive, but there can be a
big level of manipulation thathappens within that population
(23:23):
and so and I think that getsdenied a lot too, Like, oh,
you're saying someone withdepression manipulates 100% 100%
, 100%.
They have to, like we have to,to keep our world going in that
in that way until the until youdecide not to the.
The second thing I wanted tobring up is a really good friend
of mine made a video just theother day about narcissistic
(23:44):
stuff and she said she goes tome.
It was dead on and she goes ifyou're on here, if you're on
social media talking about howyour partner was a narcissist.
Your partner was not anarcissist, because your partner
would never allow you to be onsocial media talking about how
(24:05):
much of a narcissist they are.
And I was like, because she'slike she goes, they would be all
over.
You like you would so much soyou would not say a word.
You know about this and I waslike man, is that not the truth?
you know and I was like, wow, soall these people on here,
narcissist, narcissist system,she's like you wouldn't be doing
that.
If they're actually anarcissist Now could they be a
(24:25):
real shit, human, of course,yeah, of course.
Could your experience with thatperson be different than the
experience with that person haswith someone else?
100%, you know.
So it's just to me it wasinteresting, because that whole
narcissist thing is I'm tired,I'm tired of that.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
It's so exhausting.
You know people are tagging me.
We're like you're not theexpert in narcissism.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I'm like they're not even real classes to be like,
you know, like real teachings.
People do.
They think that we learned someof these.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And you don't.
You don't.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
You learn some of all of it for your awareness, but
there's no officialcertification for becoming
Listen they're too busy fillingus with useless shit about
people getting railroad spikesthrough their brains and
severing their corpus callosum.
Like this is a useless shitthat we learned.
We didn't actually get fullcourses on narcissism or
(25:21):
antisocial behavior or whatcluster B used to be, and that's
all we became experts in Likeit's not a thing Like maybe the
doctor did.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Did you doctor?
Yeah, I did not, she did not.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Jen and I got virtually the same training, and
the only training we got in NPDwas trial by fire because we
worked in the prison.
So that was the only realtraining.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
That was probably the realist training, because there
were actual yes like that 3% ofpeople in the world that really
truly have narcissism.
We got to meet some of them.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So, yes, we did, and it was all but if you don't have
extreme training like that, youknow?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
No, we were like oh, let's become experts in
psychopathology.
Oh, that looks like fun.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Says nobody ever.
Says nobody ever except us,because Right.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Well, and same thing with any personality disorders,
I mean those.
There should be a specializedtraining for that, but there's
really not until later.
But I want to bring in one morething, because I don't know if
this was your experience, but Ididn't learn how to diagnose
(26:31):
people until I was beingclinically supervised.
There wasn't a class for us onhow to specifically diagnose
anyone, Even when in my PhD,when I was taking classes on
testing right, it wasn't ahere's how you diagnose, it was
here's the results of the test,Now go look for the diagnosis.
And I was like so I don't knowif that was your experience, but
(26:52):
I'm thinking like go ahead.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I had a it was this course, abnormal Versus Normal
and I had a really greatprofessor.
You know you always get hit ormiss and one of the things that
stood out cause she.
She talked a lot about the DSMand she used to say that, um,
cause, I'm not anti the DSM, Ilove a good framework.
Right, and framework in thesense of because you had three
(27:15):
bad days, it does not mean thatyou're depressed, right.
And if you look at the DSM, itdoes offer some form of
structure.
And she used to say you reallywant to pay attention to how
many symptoms.
They say, like what thetimeframe is, and I think that
people have just X those thingsout.
So that wasn't.
She didn't necessarily teachhow to diagnose, but she brung
(27:38):
that to your awareness that youwant to pay attention to the
timeframes, you want to payattention to the symptoms,
because it's easy for us todefault and say that we have
something or to adopt a label.
So that helped me to be moremindful in terms of what I was
looking for.
But we also know that the rulesare different everywhere, right,
(28:00):
like in Texas we can diagnoseyou and then in other states you
can't diagnose.
So there's the requirementsacross the board in different
states are just so wacky and allover the place that you just
know what you're getting ingeneral.
So that was my experience.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah, and that's interesting and I want to bring
this up too, because so manypeople talk about I'm just going
to say depression, right, andso they're like I have
depression and I want to offerthis to people.
That's not a clinical diagnosis.
Every person has depression.
Every person goes throughdepressive states.
The clinical diagnosis would bemajor depressive disorder.
(28:40):
There's no depression as adiagnosis in the DSM.
There just isn't.
But all treatment is basicallyfor major depressive disorder,
which the majority of peopledon't have.
And so even when people talkabout medications and the
(29:01):
over-medicating of the Americansociety which is, I believe, to
be very true they argue with melike these save lives for those
that are seriously depressed andwhatever, and I'm like, but
most people just have depression, which is not even a
diagnosable condition.
It's a major depressivedisorder.
If we're splitting hairs hereand I think that happens a lot
(29:23):
because of psychological speak,right, we have so much
psychological speak.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's consecutive.
I can have four or five baddays and then my kid wins his
soccer tournament, and then I'mriding off a high for three days
because we're just excited andthen, before you know it, the
reset, the cycle starts over.
And that was the piece is theconsecutive timeframe that
people tend to miss.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And it takes a lot of work and time to, as a
therapist or as a like I'm goingto say, a prescriber of any
sorts to it.
We're all giving diagnosesright.
The story matters, and not themost immediate, immediate recent
story, but the whole storymatters.
But it takes time to figure outthat story.
(30:11):
It's not a quick 20 minutes orI meet you once, I give you a
couple assessments and I knowthat whole story.
It actually takes quite sometime to get to know that, which
I think is great.
When you see people that spendI mean they can be meeting with
people for months and months andmonths and months as
practitioners and they stillhave these like kind of general
diagnoses on there, because it'slike to put to slap something
(30:32):
on there that says bipolar orsays major depression.
You've got to really make surethat you've got that history
there to back it and understandit.
They lie too.
That's the only thing.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
They lie?
No, they don't, didn't we just?
Speaker 1 (30:46):
go over that a second ago, okay, but here's the thing
that, when you say, when we arehooked to everybody today is
you've been gaslighted intobelieving that the mental health
space will help you thrive.
Can you tell us from your lensbecause this is a lot of the
platform that you stand on whatdo you see that's happening, or
what's the thing you don't do inyour practice to stop creating
(31:11):
these forever consumers, thesepeople that stay in therapy
forever?
Because we are in very powerfulpositions with how we present
this and I believe that peoplecome to us like thinking that
this space that we're in isreally going to help you thrive
and it's going to work forever,but you can keep people in this
(31:32):
space forever.
I think that's so unethical.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
People say the conversation that we're having
as professionals, that isunethical.
But to create a sense ofdependency on me as a
professional, that is unethicalOne.
I don't want to talk to you.
Like I have my own friends.
Like I do, I know how to builda community because I've used
these resources in a great wayto where I don't want all of my
(31:57):
clients to be my friends.
Like and I love my clients, likeI really do, cause it's hard to
not you hear all of a person'slife like you liked it, but I
have the ability to move on.
Like nothing lasts forever.
So for me it's it's it'supfront, like the goal is to
position you to liveindependently and autonomously
(32:18):
on your own.
That doesn't mean that you maynot ever return.
That does not mean that, like I, I or someone else will not be
here for you, but it is not tokeep you in here for eight to 10
years because you need it'sthis new thing, this maintenance
therapy.
I don't do maintenance.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Oh my gosh, that's what it is Cause anything
anybody brings up, like you saidearlier, just having life and
interacting with life.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
you will always have something a symptom Always.
You do not need to consult mefor life.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Right and I think that that's kind of what you
speak a lot about on yourplatform is this idea that we
could create this and a lot ofsadly, a lot of people in our
profession.
They do create that space.
It's just like what about Bobon crack right?
Like you've got these clientsthat never, ever, ever go away
because you've taught them topathologize, even like, oh my
(33:13):
gosh, you have grief because youlost your pet and that's that.
We will stay with that for sucha long time, instead of
empowering them to learn, to getthrough it and to know that
this is not.
This is normal.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yeah, Like.
I think the other thing too ispeople are using the gym right
Like therapy, is like the gymfor your mind.
But to exercise like you, yougot to actually like lift the
Like.
You don't exercise in the gymper se.
Maybe you do have thesebreakthrough moments, these aha
moments, but to really take thatand integrate it into your life
(33:49):
, it happens with the peoplethat you would rather eliminate
out of your life, versusfiguring out how to navigate
those situations Like that'swhere you start to truly
integrate the skills and you cansee your capacity being
developed from that standpoint.
I know that for me, I reallyfelt like I needed some.
I was like this is just, thisis not helping me, and I ended
(34:09):
up finding Robert Keegan.
I use all of the things likeEric Erickson's model.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I love it.
What is your theoreticalorientation?
I'm just kidding, we hate thatquestion.
I am eclectic.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
I am eclectic.
Everybody is eclectic One dayyou may get life One day.
You may get my personalexperiences, because I am going
to share, because I find that ithas more humanness.
I'm everything, it just depends.
I'm just not a big fan of Freud.
So yeah, but like Erickson'smodel, like I didn't, you know,
cause we know that life is notlinear, right, like you know,
(34:45):
you go back to that basic stagetrust versus mistrust, and it's
all focused on your caregivers.
I believe that that transitionsinto adult life to where trust
versus mistrust is still verymuch so a new foundation.
The difference is you got tolearn to trust your own freaking
self, right, like it's nolonger about your caregivers
anymore.
And I think that thattransition is very difficult
(35:07):
because, you know, I think aboutthe statement when people say
nobody taught me this.
I'm like did you really thinkthat somebody was supposed to
teach you every fucking thingthat you're supposed to know for
your life?
Like it's not even possible.
It's your life, like how do welearn and grow?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
All right, that's that's the title of your next of
your book, raquel.
Just so you know.
Did you really think everyonewas supposed to teach you every
fucking thing in life?
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I mean, can you Like, should you Really?
No, no, and it's well.
But again that's that victimmentality, because I have
somebody to blame, because Ididn't learn how to navigate
this type of life situation.
My parents didn't teach me that, you know.
But it blows my mind too,because I think you a blueprint
(35:49):
for your entire life.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
So I guess we want to make ready-made, like when I
finished with my children.
You're ready made and youshould be equipped for
everything that you're going toface in life, Like what would be
the point of living Right.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Every day is a brand new day for every person walking
this earth.
How am I supposed to know toteach you everything when I'm
learning today too?
I think we forget that, thatour parents every day of their
life is a new day for them tolearn something, too right.
(36:27):
How are we supposed to justlean on them entirely or be mad
at them or angry at them forwhat they didn't know, is mind
boggling to me, and that kind ofgoes into the space of like
cutting all these people out ofyour life, and I feel like that
can be dangerous for people.
Like, are you going to make yourlife so singularly focused that
you have no interactions withother people that you don't like
(36:49):
?
And I look at it from the lensof me.
I'm like for me it's like thatold school friends and family
plan.
Like, is everybody going to bein that tight circle that gets
all my time and attention?
Are they going to be out hereon the periphery and I get to
choose when I interact with them?
That's how I look at it.
Instead of like, I'm just goingto like cut you out of my life.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
I still do that with my clients.
I love doing that visualization.
Yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
What the U S American surgeons is that we have an
issue with loneliness, and I'mlike you think.
Like you think about what we'reteaching people like loneliness
is an issue.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
We're teaching you to cut everybody out of your life.
That doesn't align.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, anything that causes discomfort because
discomfort is a crisis now it'sconsidered danger is toxicity.
I'm not surprised that we havea lonely loneliness issue.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Right.
Or or therapists being taughtto just align with your clients
and that's it right, like,validate, affirm all those
things like, instead of you know, being a little challenging to
them.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Challenge them just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
but no, no, it's all about just alignment, you know
you two just really reinforce my, my, my thinking on how
important it is to be able tocritically think, like it just
listen to some more episodes.
I'm going to share them.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
We are Inquisition, right, like.
Once we lose that, we arefucked Like may as well go just
be Amoeba living on top of thepond, scum floating around Once
we lose that critical thinking.
And what's cool is you had it.
I think the order you did lifeprobably was really helpful for
you, instead of finishing school, finishing high school, then
(38:38):
starting the degrees inpsychology, right, going in that
order, because I got for me andTerry and I talk about this a
lot, that order, I think kind ofI mean for me, it messed me up,
because then I started rightinto the job and then the job
reinforced everything I learnedin the degree and didn't have
any life.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Well, you know, that's what I wanted to do right
so when I started off a psychmajor, right, but I didn't come
from like a lot.
So I had called the psychperson one day and I just so
happened she answered the phoneand she was like, well, you know
, you're not going to make anymoney with a bachelor's degree
coming out.
I was like, oh, I need tochange my major.
Then she was like I actuallystarted off as an engineer.
(39:17):
And I was like really, and shewas like, yeah, I did engineer
and then I decided to go backinto, so I changed and I was
like I'm gonna be a businessmajor.
They said that I'm good withpeople.
Just somebody family member waslike maybe go in HR.
I'm like okay, great, and thenthat's what I decided to do See
we need.
I wish I would have had someonelike that, like oh, and my dad
was like, I guess, for whatpeople would consider traumatic.
(39:39):
He was like do not do any ofthat stuff.
That got ology behind it.
If you do any ology behind ityou're going to be broke.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
And I was like, well, I guess so my dad told me a
long time ago not to follow mydreams.
I guess this is funny, becausewe were just watching Dino
Hunters the other day and Ilooked at my husband and I said
do you know?
I said, do you know that I wasgoing to be an anthropologist?
Um yeah, Ology, ology, exactly.
(40:09):
My dad when I, when I came tomy dad and I said I've
discovered my major, this is myfreshman year of college, and he
goes yeah, no, that's not goingto be your major and I went
okay, all right.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Your dad had the same thinking that my dad.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Yes, no theology on the end of it Exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
No theology on the end of it.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
That's too funny.
I wanted you had said a fewthings in your TikToks and I
wrote them down, just like alittle more on this, and I wrote
them down just like a littlemore on this.
We have become emotionallyfragile, an emotionally fragile
(40:51):
culture that rewards emotionalfragility, and I would like for
you to expand a little bit moreon that, because to me, that hit
hard, because that's theprotection of your mental health
, that's the reward of beingsick, right Like there's a whole
culture of being mentally illthat is rewarded, especially on
social media.
So, and being fragile and allof that, I would love for you to
(41:13):
just talk a little bit more onthat topic, if you will.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, I think the the emotional piece I believe has
come from at some point everyonesuppressed their emotions and I
don't doctor you can tell methis story but I remember
reading that as early as sevenyears old, no matter what
happens in life, we start tosuppress our emotions.
It's just natural because westart to want to please people.
(41:40):
We want to make people happy.
We don't want to please people,we want to make people happy,
we don't want to hurt people.
So to me, again, that was theabnormal versus normal.
So for you to suppress youremotions is also not because
someone made you do it.
You could be in an environmentto where it magnifies your
ability to suppress.
But to suppress your emotions Iread that it can have.
(42:04):
It starts to happen as early asseven years old.
So I think we've doubled downon.
Your emotions is like thegateway.
Understanding your emotions isthe gateway to having good
mental health, and it's not.
Your emotions is the gateway tounderstanding self and that's
it and how you relate andinteract with the people in the
world around you.
(42:24):
It is internal data, it is nota justification, it is not
evidence for how people shouldbe responding to you, and I
think I see it a lot from an HRstandpoint Right, because
everybody needs a mental healthday.
Our standpoint right, becauseeverybody needs a mental health
(42:44):
day.
You have to walk on eggshellsbefore you can say something,
because did you think about howa person felt?
Like I'm not supposed to, don'tget me wrong.
I'm not saying don't beempathetic towards people, but
that is data for you, and weknow that feelings are not facts
.
Yes, there it is.
I was waiting for it.
Feelings are not facts, so Idon't know, and they're always,
they're fleeting.
I think that it's justinformation.
(43:07):
It's information and we don'tknow how to use information.
And when you don't know how touse information as a resource,
you create a society ofemotionally fragile people.
Some of that shit just does notmatter, like some of it really
just does not matter.
It would be like my son sayingI don't want to go to school.
Mommy, it doesn't matter, likeif you're doing like the first
(43:28):
day, maybe it's like all right,son, I understand that it's
difficult, it's early, YepValidate, it doesn't matter.
Day three it doesn't matter, getyour stuff.
It's time to go to school, son.
And I think that there's nobalance in that right, because
(43:50):
if we were really driving withthe concept that feelings are
not facts, we wouldn't put somuch pressure on those things.
I think the biggest thing isfrom an emotional standpoint.
It's so that you're notreactive, so that you can hold
space for other people, so thatyou can hold space for other
people so that you can holdspace for yourself.
Right, that's all it means.
It's just internal data for you, but somehow we weaponize it
now, because you're making mefeel this way.
(44:11):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no one's making you feel it
Again.
Blame, right, blame is so mucheasier than growth.
Oh, 100%.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
And as you were talking, I was thinking, like
you said, suppress your emotions.
And my brain kept saying sortyour emotions.
Like, sort them throughimportance, right, like, is this
emotion important?
To sort through my emotions andbe like, what is the most
(44:47):
important thing that I need todo right now?
Is it stand here and cry, or isit to, you know, grab the child
or you know whatever?
So I'm going to sort myemotions, you know, and I think
that's appropriate.
Sometimes I mean again, thatwas an extreme example, but I
think we do it a lot, like evenin the workplace like sort
through your emotions here.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
You know you're just receiving constructive feedback
because you're on the verge ofbeing fired if you can't.
And then they take them.
People, what they do is they goout on FMLA, like it's, it's
really, it's really exhausting,like it really is, and the
emotional fragility and I and Itry to stay away from the word
(45:31):
weak, because you just gave agreat example, right Like, am I
going to grab the baby or am Igoing to stand here and cry?
Like, depending on thesituation, the nature of the
situation, sometimes it is I'mjust going to cry because the
baby is safe, because the babyis only crying, right, so I can
have a moment here and I canhave a full blown meltdown and
that's OK.
Well, if the baby is playingwith the socket and pat their
(45:57):
fingers, you don't have time tocry, even though you've been on
for the last 10 hours.
And it's when I say you don'thave time to cry, it's not that
you cannot go handle thatsituation and then go back and
say let me create space or, asyou said, sort through why I
feel so overwhelmed.
And I think that the besttherapist, they truly understand
those things that sometimes youwon't be able to create space
(46:19):
for, whatever those emotions arethat are coming up, but it does
not mean that you don't get thechoice to go back and revisit
those things.
Yes, and that's the partbetween enduring versus pushing
through life.
A lot of people are enduringand pushing through, so I
understand what people aresaying when they say, well, the
generation before us suppressedtheir emotions.
They just didn't create time togo back.
(46:40):
But I also think that thegenerations before us, they had
something that we're losingtoday, which is that sense of
resiliency, and we are doomed asa society, like if this is what
we're going to have, like Imean, just bring the robots at
this point, because humans forno, that resiliency piece is
huge, because being fragiledoesn't allow for resiliency.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
Right Like so you've got a mental health problem.
Because being fragile doesn'tallow for resiliency.
Right Like so, you've got amental health problem.
How are you going to movethrough this?
How are you going to learn fromthis?
How are you going to grow,instead of just being sitting
here and in the state of beingfragile and being rewarded for
(47:22):
that?
You know, and I do think we'redoomed because of lack of
resiliency.
We have to have the ability tobounce back.
There was a really good study.
It was after 9-11 and some ofthe participants not
participants of 9-11, but thesurvivors of 9-11 developed PTSD
(47:43):
and some did not, and so theresearchers wanted to understand
why that was like you wereinvolved in the same horrific
event, but some didn't.
Some thrived, some did not, andthey were talking about
resiliency factors.
They were talking about how youperceived your world before
this happened.
How was your childhood, howyour perception of your
(48:05):
childhood and your resiliencywere kind of dictating whether
or not you would develop PTSD,and I'm like, I believe that a
hundred percent.
Um, you know, there's, there'sa lot of examples in my life
that I can lean on um to to makethat example true, even on a
(48:26):
personal level, and I think ifwe forget about bouncing back,
that's when we're doomed.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
I just had this thought, just listening to you
talk about childhood, because Ihaven't released this video yet.
Because I can handle the smokeand the heat, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
You can throw us in it too, jen, and the heat.
But let's do it.
You can throw us in it too.
Like Jen and Terry said, I haveto do this.
Go check out those assholes.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
I think that, especially when people, when
people are first enteringtherapy, like for the first time
, I do not default to talkingabout your childhood Now.
I expect people to come inbecause that's what they think
they should be doing.
But if we start from yourchildhood, like to me, your
entire childhood could betraumatic, even if you had, like
a good child, because you haveno power, you have no sense of
(49:15):
agency.
So, depending on what aprofessional says in front of
you, every single thing, andbefore you know it, it's almost
like your brain starts toremember and create stories that
did not happen, because youhave no choice as a child.
Whatever your parents say, itgoes and that could be in a very
(49:35):
healthy household.
I'll never forget when I got aclient that was like I had a
really great childhood but itwas too good and I'm traumatized
.
I was like I didn't say it butI was like how does that happen?
Like I do, I have this greenroom that I check into.
Like when people are sayingshit that I think is so fucking
(49:55):
stupid, and I'm like I'm lookingat you and I'm like, yeah, it's
I, shit, I don't know what Isaid but in the back of my head
I'm like what the?
So, you know?
You ask me you're like so whatabout your childhood made it so
traumatic?
And it's like, well, my parentsgave me everything.
Oh, okay, how would you havepreferred for it to be?
(50:18):
Well, I would have preferredfor?
And then you know what peopleare usually saying in that case,
they wanted to struggle.
They want it to know what itwould like to experience
something hard.
Because inherently, we are allwired for growth, even though we
fight to and that's the balanceright we fight to survive daily
(50:39):
, and then we also fight to grow, and some people just fall on
either side.
But did I was thinking I was?
I'm very careful about that,because a person can assume your
whole childhood was traumatic,because you can feel helpless,
hopeless, because you're a kid.
Choice, there's no sense ofagency, yeah, so, um, oh, I have
(51:01):
one for you guys.
So I want to to know yourthoughts about the nervous
system.
Ok, because I think thisconversation, the way that I
understand it, and I could becompletely wrong, but I I think
I found my community here.
So I say that you're, Iunderstand the concept of your
(51:21):
nervous system rememberingthings too, of your nervous
system remembering things tooright, like, I get that, but I
don't think that your nervoussystem controls you in the way
that we have made it out to be.
I think it communicates in thesense of like, right now, your
nervous system is like are thesetwo people in front of me safe?
No different from if I wasstanding in front of a lion
(51:43):
right now.
Right, and I have to going backto that emotional component.
And I have to go back to thatemotional component, right, I
have to be able to check in withmyself, slow down and say, no,
I'm not in front of two lions,this is where, this is where I'm
.
So people are starting to say,like your nervous system knows
good vibes, they know goodpeople.
Well, somebody.
Because, if that's the case,somebody, teach me how to do
that.
Because it does not.
(52:04):
Like, your nervous system isalways scanning for threats.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Like it does not know good vibes.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
If anything, it knows how you do not know how to
handle discomfort anduncertainty and change.
And it's asking you to payattention to what's trying to be
communicated to you, because Ijust feel like that's a big myth
with the nervous nervous system.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
So it's wrong a lot, ok.
Nervous system it's wrong a lot, okay, your nervous system is
wrong a lot.
Like assessing this.
As you know, these are twolions in front of me and you
know you're scared to be on here, whatever it is Like.
Is that actually the truth?
Well, your fear is truthful.
I mean, it's a podcast, it'sthese things, it's people you've
never met before.
But are we going to harm you?
(52:48):
I sure as hell hope not, butyour brain and body are always
searching for threats.
That's your set point of life,that's your caveman brain,
that's your sense of survival.
That's why, when you take awalk and you see a stick in
front of you and your brain goessnake, possibly, you know, and
then, upon further inspection,it's a stick.
(53:10):
You know, I mean, we get itwrong a lot.
But again, this is thataffirmation of no, your body
gets it right every time andit's like but your body gets it
wrong an awful lot.
So what space do you want tolive in, the space of curiosity
about is this right, is thiswrong?
Or are we just going to be likemy body is right all the time
(53:33):
and it's never wrong?
So now I'm scared of everythingand I have anxiety.
And that's just the way it'sgoing to be, and that's who I am
.
I have this thing calledanxiety, and so that's my two
cents on the matter and I thinkthat we have a lot more ability.
Do I think trauma can interferewith that frequency?
(53:55):
I sure do help ourselves to.
I'll say, recalibrate that, youknow that.
Recalibrate that response soit's not so intense or
hypervigilant or whatever.
But you know, I mean when youI'm, I'm in my mid fifties.
So I've of course have beenthrough my fair share of
(54:17):
everything in this world, myfair share of good and bad.
Many people had it way worsethan me.
Many people had it way betterthan me, you know.
But if that were the case, bythe time we are elderly we would
just be hot mess express allthe time.
If only we were always in thisstate of fight or flight and
never assessed.
So I think we also naturallyassess our states of being.
(54:43):
But when you go back into we,we are rewarded for being
emotionally fragile.
That's a weird place to be forthe younger generations to come.
That's where the wholeresiliency comes into place and
curiosity and critical thinkingabout self and environment.
We don't have to be stuck wherewe are you just don't.
(55:08):
And we can move forward and wecan change.
And, yeah, I think we aregetting it wrong and I'm worried
about the future mental healthpeople.
So it's interesting, because Idid not know that you were that
brand new.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
I had no idea you were that brand new, that's why
I was quiet, because I didn'twant people to try to gaslight
me and say she doesn't know whatshe's done.
She knew she's on every CA andI was like well then I finally
was like I don't really care,cause I this stuff.
It just does not resonate.
And it's one thing that say itdoes not resonate it actually
(55:42):
doesn't support what's actuallytextbook either.
Like that's the piece thatreally gets me.
I'm like did we all read thesame fucking book?
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Well, that's because that same books haven't changed
since the thirties and we'relearning the same fucking shit.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
So you know, those have not evolved, the books have
not changed and people sayshe's oversimplifying things,
she's leaving the nuances.
Well, that's where yourcritical thinking should come in
at right.
That's where your criticalthinking should come in, because
I don't know, I think it'sdangerous, especially for the
(56:17):
younger generation, because theywill have these technological
events, like this technologythat they have.
They have language now.
They just have things that wehave not always had, so they are
more susceptible to thesethings.
But I also think that itdoesn't matter what generation,
all generations are picking itup today, which means that we're
(56:41):
passing that down Like I don'tknow.
It's just a wild place to be inand I don't want any parts of
it.
And I started creating contentbecause I was like if my son
ever I just had one at a time Ifhe ever needs therapy, I don't
want him to see some of you, Iwant him to go back to his
normal content and like justlook at my content.
(57:03):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
I find that with both of my kids all the time like,
yeah, I think they might need tosee somebody.
Yeah, no, I don't think so.
I think they're fine, they're.
They're 13 and 11.
They'll fucking figure shit out.
They're all right, like yeah, uh, yeah no, and I, I don't, we
don't disagree that's actually areally good idea for an episode
you just gave us a really goodidea for an episode there,
raquel, because I think that ishuge.
(57:24):
A lot of people would disagreeon that, but I think we're at a
good space to wrap up, becausewe are almost out of time and so
we have to actually put a bowon this shit and wrap it up.
So thank you for being a partof our show.
We're going to have to have youback.
I'm just saying.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
I will come back for you.
I'm like can you send me yourInstagram so that I can follow
you now?
Speaker 3 (57:48):
Like cause.
Speaker 2 (57:49):
I am fans Like I am fans Like I am a real fan now.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
Thank you for being on the show.
We're happy to have youEverybody that has made it
through to the end here we arethe guest lit truth podcast and
we're going to keep that big Iword, which is inquisition, in
the forefront of your brain,because without that, life is no
good.
So do us a favor If you want tosupport us, you can buy us a
coffee, or you can go out andgive us some stars, give us all
the stars.
Make sure you buy Dr Terry'sbook, otherwise we don't want
(58:15):
anything to do with you.
And if you need to send us yourgaslit truth stories, you can
email us atthegaslittruthpodcast at
gmailcom.
We'd
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