Have you ever wondered what really happens during electroconvulsive therapy? Not what's shown in glossy brochures or described in sanitized consent forms, but the raw, unfiltered truth from someone who's experienced it firsthand?
In this eye-opening conversation, we're joined by Deborah Schwartzkopff, a retired level one trauma nurse and the founder of ECT Justice, who pulls back the curtain on the psychiatric treatment that continues to be promoted as safe and effective despite mounting evidence to the contrary.
Deborah takes us through her journey from adverse reactions to psychiatric medications to being prescribed dangerously high doses of multiple drugs, and eventually to receiving electroconvulsive therapy - a treatment she now describes as causing "acquired traumatic brain injury based on mechanism of trauma." With her unique perspective as both a medical professional and a patient, she explains how electrical trauma impacts every cell and system in the body, creating damages that may not be immediately apparent but evolve over time.
What's particularly shocking is the disparity between how accidental electrical injuries are treated in emergency medicine versus how ECT-induced brain injuries are dismissed within psychiatry. While patients with traumatic brain injuries typically receive comprehensive rehabilitation services, ECT patients are often gaslit about the nature of their symptoms and denied access to the same care. This reality is especially concerning given that approximately two-thirds of ECT recipients are women, raising serious questions about gender bias in psychiatric treatment.
Whether you're contemplating ECT, supporting someone who is, or simply interested in understanding the controversies surrounding psychiatric treatments, this conversation provides crucial insights you won't hear in conventional medical settings. Listen now to understand why informed consent matters and how patients are fighting back against a system that too often prioritizes compliance over true healing.
Are you tired of being gaslit and want to DEEP THROAT some more truth? We want to hear from you! Message us your gaslit stories at thegaslittruthpodcast@gmail.com
While you are at it, Follow us on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube @thegaslittruthpodcast.
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Dr. Teralyn:
Therapist Jenn:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennifer Schmitz (00:02):
Hey everyone, you have been gaslit into
believing that electroconvulsivetherapy, ect, is safe and
effective.
We are your whistleblowingshrinks, dr Teralyn and
therapist Jen.
We're here to pull back thecurtain on what no one else is
going to tell you about ECT.
And we have a very specialguest here this morning Debra
Schwarzkopf.
Welcome to the show, debra.
Dr Teralyn Sell (00:24):
Thanks very much for having me.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (00:26):
Thank you , yeah you're welcome, I do want
to add in here that Jen and Idid an episode a while ago where
she talked about her experiencewitnessing ECT in her graduate
program and we got so manypeople saying that's not right,
that's not how it's done.
It's effective, it's safe, it'sall these things so.
I am stoked to have you on heretoday to talk about this,
(00:51):
because I think there is a lotof misinformation going around
about ECT in today's world right?
Jennifer Schmitz (01:00):
Yes, absolutely, and everybody.
Deborah is a retired level onetrauma nurse and she's actually
the former owner of ECT Justice,and we're going to have to talk
a little bit about ECT Justice.
It's a survivor's website forthose who have been through ECT
and actually is now owned by anattorney law firm since like
2019.
But you started that, and so weare going to talk a little bit
(01:23):
about that too, because I thinkthat's a very important thing to
talk about as well.
So, deborah, welcome to theshow.
It is, like Terry said, great tohave you on here, because it
was as if my experience ofsomeone who is a graduate
student watching patients gothrough this I wrote a paper on
this and it was as if what I sawwasn't real.
(01:44):
People were dismissing this,people were dismissing the
process of it and that thisisn't done in modern day, or I
would get the opposite of peoplesaying this is wrong, it's
super effective, it helps people.
The grotesque way in whichyou're saying this occurs, what
people are going through, that'snot how it's done, and blah,
blah, blah, blah all thisbullshit.
(02:08):
So it's really great to haveyou come on the show, to
actually be able to speak asanother voice about this as
someone who has went through itas well.
So, debra, why don't you startby kind of telling us how you
got to this space, whereelectroconvulsive shock therapy
was even part of a treatmentplan for you?
Dr Teralyn Sell (02:22):
Well, like Teralyn, I had had some
experiences with SSRIs and I hada very bad reaction to an SSRI
at one point.
Prozac was my first issue thatI had.
I became manic on the drug.
I became preoccupied with guns.
(02:44):
I became preoccupied withhostages.
That's not my baseline at all.
The psychiatrist that wasseeing me had seen me for a
couple of years and realizedthat this was not my baseline,
that this was the first drug shewas trying with me me and when
(03:07):
this incident involved a SWATteam outside my hotel room, at
one point she withdrew the drugimmediately, and those thoughts
left my mind completely.
I happened to be in an abusivemarriage.
I didn't realize fully at thetime what was going on in the
marriage.
It was narcissistic abuse, andso I've been gaslit a lot, and
so I became the problem which isnot uncommon in abusive
(03:29):
situations for women a lot oftimes to seek help when they're
in a vulnerable position likethat, and often it's a result of
childhood trauma to the choicesthat you make later, of course,
and so there are multiplefactors going on, and so when
(03:49):
the drug was withdrawn, we movedand I started seeing another
psychiatrist and she againwanted me to try a new SSRI that
was on the market and again asimilar situation happened, and
so, instead of the drug beingstopped, this time I was given a
list of DSM codes.
I was given a list of drugs,and because this involved my
(04:13):
personal feelings, because thisinvolved a threat to a
psychiatrist that I was punishedfor years to follow, and I
think that's why my experiencehad some of the outcomes that it
did, because I feel that thepsychiatrist may have been quite
vindictive and understandably,I mean, it was a threat for her
(04:34):
and so she did not tie it to theSSRI drug, however, and so
that's how I ended up gettingelectroshock too.
That was recommended, and so Iwas in Barry Maletsky's ECT
research program, so I would getseveral ECT a day in his
(04:54):
research program and a day, yeah, and, and he, that was his
research, and later most of myelectroshock was done at Kaiser
Permanente.
And yeah, yeah, and a lot ofpeople don't realize.
People don't realize these,these big HMOs and these
(05:16):
hospitals in your community areusing electroshock, and we would
do protests over at KaiserPermanente and we would try to
hit lunchtime hours for staff tocome out and see this and they
would say why are you doingthese protests here.
Kaiser doesn't do electroshockand you did let them know.
Yes, in fact, they do doelectroshock.
(05:37):
I'm going to get away from mystory because I'm more of an
activist on this issue than Iwant to go on about my story,
because my story is sosimilarpractice suit, and the
very next one required apsychiatric medical malpractice
suit as well, and the next oneafter that required reporting to
(06:22):
the board.
Something is going on that isdocumentable and that that a
legal court would hold up, andso this is not just my story.
And these drugs that areprescribed land people in such
precarious positions sometimesand not warned that coming off.
These drugs is very difficultto come off of and patients
should have the right to knowthat.
But I ended up getting a lot ofelectroshock Again, being in an
(06:43):
abusive marriage.
My husband was all for this,because when you have
electroshock you're receiving anacquired traumatic brain injury
based on mechanism of trauma,and these brain injuries dumb
you down, they shut you up, theyquiet you, they make you
complicit and compliant, and youdon't always see your damages
right away.
And so a lot of people say, oh,ect saved my life, or or, you
(07:08):
know, it was my only option.
And I say to them thatinitially the euphoria you feel
you are very suggestible givenyour neurocompromise.
You are you, you're.
You look to your psychiatristas your savior on some level and
you don't want to disappointthat psychiatrist and the nurses
are saying, oh, you look somuch better and giving all this
(07:31):
positive reinforcement.
And your family says, oh, youlook so much better because
you're shut down, you're notcomplaining, you've forgotten
what brought you into thehospital.
You've forgotten your shittymarriage that you're in.
You've forgotten that you'rebeing abused and you're trying
to leave and your husband'screating all these problems for
you.
So you turn your psychiatristand you say this is what's going
on.
And they label you with allthese labels instead of giving
(07:53):
you the appropriate help thatyou need and shutting you
further down with these drugsand this electroshock.
And then these people that haveelectroshock I'm getting hoarse.
These people that haveelectroshock because of their
many brain injuries.
They can't get the resourcesthat all other TBI patients have
access to to suicide becausethey're gaslit into thinking
(08:27):
they don't have a brain injuryand they have a change up in
their psychiatric medications orthey're given more ECT.
I have peers that are terrifiedto go see a psychiatrist to
reach out for help, becauseelectrocution or electroshock is
used as torture in somesocieties and so they're afraid
to go for help.
And if you're in an abusivesituation, that man will use
this against help.
And if you're in an abusivesituation, that man will use
this against you.
(08:47):
And if you have a child, hewill threaten to take that child
and see you as an unfit parent.
And I lost a peer, nina, tosuicide because she was in a
marriage that was abusive andshe had electroshock and she
couldn't remember how to takecare of her child and all her
family members.
Most of her family members werein the medical profession A
(09:09):
mother who was a nurse, abrother who was a doctor, who
all kept telling her to havemore electroshock instead of
getting her the appropriate helpthat she needed.
I talked to her almost dailybecause she was afraid to see a
psychiatrist or anybody inmental health care.
At that point I tried to fixher up with a friend of mine
that lived close to her to giveher added support, and she
(09:30):
called my friend, called me andsaid that Nina had hung herself,
and the day before Nina hungherself she sent me a picture of
her holding her dog, and sothis is not uncommon to happen
to people who are gaslit aroundtheir brain injuries.
You look at these NFL playerswho become violent or commit
(09:51):
suicide because of their two orthree concussions.
Who was the pathologist whoidentified CTE and the NFL head
injuries was also speaking onbehalf of ECT plaintiffs in a
court case that went to theCalifornia Supreme Court.
(10:12):
He spoke on behalf of ECTpatients and to me that says a
great deal on what is missingfrom consent.
Jennifer Schmitz (10:20):
Consent.
Can you talk a little bit Debraabout and I know that you don't
want to make it just your story, but I think there's a lot of
truth that's helpful for peopleto hear, because you went
through this what was consentfor you when it came to the
discussion around ECT?
What were you told?
Dr Teralyn Sell (10:39):
Okay, when I was in this system and after
this incident had taken placewith this psychiatrist, I came
under the care of a psychiatristthat over-medicated me.
That resulted in a psychiatricmedical malpractice.
I was prescribed benzos at avan at 25 milligrams a day.
(11:00):
At a van it's usually 1 to 6milligrams a day.
I was prescribed 25 milligrams.
Sarah Queller is taken at 1,200milligrams a day At advantage,
usually one to six milligrams aday.
I was prescribed 25 milligrams.
Seroquel is taken at 1200milligrams a day.
I was on Ambien.
Ambien's five to 10.
At bedtime I was prescribed 10milligrams four times a day.
That's not the only hypnotic,that was not the only benzos.
(11:22):
Because of all the amnesiaeffects I was having, all these
overdoses.
You know, I'm sure there weretimes I did try to commit
suicide because my life was shitduring all this time and
because of the paradoxicalresponse.
Because of all the benzos youdon't sleep and so I would go
days without sleeping, to thepoint of vomiting and
hallucinating, and they wouldsay, oh, she's manic, when they
(11:44):
knew full well it was aparadoxical response to these
benzos and so what would happenis is I would overdose and I was
always in the emergency room Onaverage.
When I brought this lawsuit itshowed that I was in the
hospital studying on averageevery 15 days for one thing or
another, and when I'd OD, I'dOD'd on everything you know my
(12:07):
heart medicine, my thyroid, Imean.
You know, my husband said Iwould just fill a candy dish and
just scarf it down, notthinking you know.
And then, when you can't sleep,I was trying to self-medicate
with alcohol and so I wasdrinking a bottle of 151 Bacardi
every other day with all thesedrugs, trying to sleep, and
nobody would assist me.
(12:27):
I was so out of it I couldn'tassist myself.
And so and so and when.
And I think that was such, asuch a hard realization when I,
when I came off of all thesedrugs to realize in retrospect
and reading all these recordsthat I was the kind of ER nurse
(12:49):
that if I saw a patient come inwith a list of drugs like that
repeated overdoses after thesecond time in a month, you know
I would be following.
I mean I was the type of nurseI would follow you outside the
ER.
I mean that's crossingboundaries, I'm sure.
But if I knew that situationwas that critical I would have
done it.
And in one month alone I hadsix ICU admits, so people knew
(13:14):
what was going on.
And then what would happen isI'd be brought into Kaiser
Permanente, dropped down to onemilligram every six hours of
Ativan, shamed for the drugsthat I was taking, you know,
discharged with the same amountof drugs I was prescribed when I
came in after another overdose.
And this went on for sevenyears.
(13:34):
And what finally happened?
Oh and then they would bring mein and they would electroshock
me.
Benzos are given to stopseizures and so my levels were
so toxic it makes me ill tothink how high they had to crank
that ect machine up to overridethe level of benzos in my
system.
They had to crank that thingway high to get me to seize.
(13:57):
I know they did.
And so consent basically saysyou'll have a headache, you'll
have some jaw pain, you'll'llhave memory loss for the time
around procedure expected toreturn.
You may have some long-termmemory loss, but that is rare.
You'll have your anesthesiarisk.
That's pretty much it.
(14:17):
Electrical trauma low voltage.
Electrical trauma impacts everycell, every system in the human
body.
Jennifer Schmitz (14:25):
Tell us about what that actually is.
For some people listening, Idon't know if they have a good
understanding of the basicdescription of what ECT actually
is.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (14:35):
So yeah, can you?
Jennifer Schmitz (14:35):
share that, Deborah yeah.
Dr Teralyn Sell (14:37):
As an ER nurse, I know, if this happened in any
other incident one time to apatient that resulted in
unresponsiveness and seizureshow it would be seen and treated
Initially.
You would know that an acquiredtraumatic brain injury would
occur.
You can get an acquiredtraumatic brain injury from low
voltage electrical traumahitting your arm, never mind
(14:58):
your head, and so you would havean acquired traumatic brain
injury.
You would also anticipatecardiac issues.
That person would be on acardiac monitor at least 24
hours.
You would be drawing a varietyof labs following electrical
trauma.
Every cell, every system, thebody runs on electricity.
That's how the body generates,and every cell, every system and
(15:23):
every organ is impacted byelectrical trauma.
There was actually apsychiatrist.
This is how ill-informedpsychiatry is around this
procedure that they use.
There was actually apsychiatrist on.
I'm throwing off redheads, sothat's out of the question.
Oh, it was Cora Cora.
I've been throwing off so manyplatforms you don't know I love
(15:43):
it who?
I've been throwing off so manyplatforms you don't know, but
anyway this psychiatrist wastelling his pregnant woman that
because she wanted to have morelike he was suggesting she had
more electric shock, that thiswouldn't impact the baby, that
it just goes to the head Likefrom here down nothing happens.
So I had to educate thispsychiatrist I think I was
thrown off after that for awhile but educate him about
(16:06):
electrical trauma, how itimpacts every cell, every system
and people.
It's so frustrating that peoplethat have had this you know
some of these people defend thisbecause they don't realize that
electrical trauma evolves overtime and damages.
You may think you're a-okay nowbecause of your brain injury.
(16:28):
You don't see because of theanosognosia where you don't
recognize the severity of yourincurred damages again because
of your brain injury.
So you're punch drunk.
You're punch drunk.
Jennifer Schmitz (16:39):
It's just like psychiatric meds.
Debra, it's that same thing.
When we're talking aboutanosognosia, it's the same thing
.
Right, like you're spellbound,not realizing what's going to
happen, and then, over time,this is when this starts to
occur, just like psychiatricmeds, and the common denominator
here is psychiatry.
(17:06):
Just so that everybody knowswhen you're listening, here too,
electroconvulsive shock therapyis not done by a medical doctor
, guys.
Ect is not something that thiscould be performed by psychiatry
.
This is where this actuallystarted was by psychiatrists
trying to get their name in thefield and trying to make a name
for themselves within the field.
(17:27):
They were at the bottom totempole of what medical recognition
was.
So, for those of you that maybedon't have a lot of knowledge
on this, you can go back andlook at the etiology of this,
and part of this was coming fromthese individuals trying to
make a name for themselves inthe field.
So they are.
They are performing.
Psychiatrists are the ones thatare performing these electrical
(17:48):
brain injuries, which is whatis happening, everybody.
When you are doing ECT, you areactually stimulating an
electrical injury to the brain,right?
Dr Teralyn Sell (17:59):
And the whole body.
Jennifer Schmitz (18:00):
Simplify yeah, I'm in the body.
I'm simplifying this, debra,because I think some people
don't have as much knowledge onwhat all of this is.
I don't want to cut you off andminimize what you're saying,
and that's not my intent.
It's more about giving generalinformation.
Here we are creating injuriesto the brain.
We need to get to a point ofseizing and that's what we're
(18:23):
doing.
So everybody, when she wassaying that that's what's
happening, that is the functionof ECT is to get somebody to a
point where they are having aseizure to the brain.
That is happening, that's goingto generate through the entire
body.
Dr Teralyn Sell (18:34):
Then yeah, this is what they say.
And just because it's cleanlooking, just because you're
using a paralytic and theanesthesia you know, the force
of these seizures is so strongthat if the paralytics were not
used, you would break your longbones, which take a great deal
of trauma to fracture.
Jennifer Schmitz (18:52):
I don't want to cut you off here, but as
somebody who watched thishappening multiple times to
patients I, I, I wouldn't Iwould say that that is such a
like the world will glamorizeECD.
Like you go to these boutiquetype like places where I'm just
going to go in, I'm just goingto get my brain zapped, I'm just
going to have an electricallike trauma happen to my brain
(19:13):
and then I'm going to come outand be fine.
When you're in it, though andif there are people that will
disagree with me on this but Iwatched this happen multiple
times there is nothing beautifulabout this, and you are not
incorrect.
The way people are medicated,the way that people are strapped
down, devices are put in yourmouth so that you don't bite
(19:35):
your tongue off or chew holes inthe insides of your mouths this
is what it looks like when it'sbeing done.
It's not beautiful people atall.
So this idea that there's somekind of glam behind this or that
it's not a horrific trauma thisis what I watched as a student,
(19:55):
watching this happen to people.
It was horrific.
That's what you see.
So I'm not sure how that hasbecome glamorized.
You know what I mean and I knowyou're the one that's actually
been there and had this done toyou.
But when you came out of thisDebra, like was it just like?
(20:17):
There you were sitting and lifewas fine and you were
unstrapped and you were sittingin the chair, all nice and life
was good.
Is that what happens when youwake up from this?
Dr Teralyn Sell (20:28):
What happens when you wake up from this is
that you usually don't rememberthe immediate time after.
You usually don't remember fora period of time.
It's in kind of a retrospect.
You do know that you haveheadaches.
I do know that I had a sense ofconfusion, that I had to be
(20:48):
guided, that I was so confused.
I do recall one time that I wascaught going into somebody
else's bathroom trying to climbinto their bed because I was
grossly confused, and I rememberlater in a group meeting that I
was being shamed for thatbecause of boundaries or
something like that, not.
And now it makes me angrybecause I've seen this is my
(21:11):
third TBI this week who wouldn'tbe stumbling around in somebody
else's room.
And so this procedure ismisrepresented and medical
malpractice attorneys now findcause around consent and they
find cause around medicalbattery to bring lawsuits around
(21:34):
this issue.
And so people that want tocontinue with ECT or consider
ECT my feeling is that that isyour free choice to do what you
like, but my point is is thatyou deserve to have the full
information to give true,informed consent.
(21:55):
When I consented I was soimpaired with all the
benzodiazepines I was not in alegal situation to be consenting
for anything, and so that wasan illegal consent obtained.
When you're emotionallydistraught, you know you're not
in a position to be agreeing tosomething that's going to impact
you the rest of your life.
(22:17):
Once you start consenting tothis, a lot of consents are done
in a series format.
So that means like between oneand 12, you sign one consent.
Not all hospitals do this andthey screw up because right
behind them doing the seriesformat for the ECT, anesthesia
comes along and they consent forevery procedure.
So illegally, they're settingthemselves up for suit by doing
(22:40):
that If anesthesia is going toconsent, they better consent for
series two and then, once theseries has started and you're
having brain injuries and yourmemory is gone, you can't
withdraw that consent.
You know what I'm saying.
So you're caught up for thatwhole 12 and they get their
insurance payout.
You know, because this pays bigmoney.
(23:01):
People don't know the amount ofmoney that this one, the ECT
device, generates for a hospital, and the FDA has never tested
this for safety or effectivenessIn decades.
They failed to meet theirobligations around this practice
and the procedure and thedevices.
The devices have never hadpre-market approval.
(23:22):
They don't test my feelingsbecause I know full well that
this is brain injury withsystemic risks, short and long
term.
Cte, als, cardiac issue visualissues.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (23:35):
I wanted to talk about the CTE part
because if you guys don't knowwhat CTE is, I'm going to read
what it is and it gets publicitywith athletes and multiple
concussions.
Dr Teralyn Sell (23:47):
And that's why Dr O'Malley was the expert at
the ECT device suit.
He was the expert for ECTpatients?
Deborah Schwartzkopff (23:54):
Yes, because how is this any
different?
It's a different mechanism.
You feel better.
We have to electric shock yourbrain, which, as you were
(24:15):
talking about before, you wouldnever get struck by a lightning
bolt and they would let you beright.
You would have multiple testing, all these things, but you're
not.
It's interesting because I usedto.
I knew this MD and he was anincredible human, super smart.
He would talk about psychiatryas if this is the only surgical
procedure that a psychiatristcan do.
(24:36):
So if you are a psychiatristthat does ECT, you're like a
surgeon, right.
It brings a certain level ofexpertise and a different
surgical procedure that you cannow do aside from just
prescribing medication.
(24:56):
So it gives them a little bitmore ego in that.
And I also wanted to bring inthis idea that any procedure
that a psychiatrist does, fromprescribing to ECT, has brain
injury.
Like that is like the desiredoutcome is a injury to your
brain.
Jennifer Schmitz (25:16):
It's either a synthetic brain injury or a
structural brain injury.
This is the bottom line.
Dr Teralyn Sell (25:22):
There's brain injuries happening.
Jennifer Schmitz (25:23):
Don't forget to read what you're going to
read, so people understand whereyou were going with that.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (25:27):
I'm sorry .
I could tell you were startingand I want you to bring this
into play because it's important.
Jennifer Schmitz (25:30):
Oh, but I lost it.
I'm sorry.
I could tell you were startingand I want you to bring this
into play because I think it'simportant.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (25:33):
Oh, but I lost it.
I lost this.
Oh no, there it is.
There it is.
Multiple concussions can lead toa condition called chronic
traumatic encephalopathy CTE, aprogressive degenerative brain
disease associated withlong-term exposure to repeated
head impacts.
While not all individuals withmultiple concussions develop CTE
(25:54):
, the risk increases with thenumber and severity of
concussions.
Other potential long-termeffects of multiple concussions
include post-concussion syndromeand cognitive impairments.
And so we see that in athletes.
We see that in football,players and boxers are like the
two biggest that they talk aboutand the only way that they can
(26:15):
diagnose that is post-mortem.
So when they look at the brainin a post-mortem way, and so
there'd be no way to diagnosethis with ECT unless someone who
went through ECT said, hey,post-mortem, I want you to look
at my brain, I want you to beable to do that.
But this is also the CTE causesa lot of, I'll say, impulsivity
(26:41):
and also suicidality.
And so that's when they look atthese young athletes who are
like going off to college andthey're doing great and suddenly
they take their own lives, andthey're like what is the matter
here?
And it's because they enduredmultiple concussions and they
have CTE.
So when you talk about this,made you want to end your life
(27:02):
and you did things to do.
To me that all makes sense.
Because it doesn't make sense,it didn't make logical sense for
you to have that type of animpulse until after the ECT.
And I just want to bring in onemore thing, and you may not
know anything about this,because this isn't exactly the
same thing, but TMS,transmagnetic stimulation that's
(27:23):
got to be the next thing.
I mean, it's the next braininjury thing, correct?
I mean you can't stick magnetson your brain and expect nothing
to happen.
Dr Teralyn Sell (27:32):
Well I'll, you can't stick magnets on your
brain and expect nothing tohappen.
Well, I'll tell you somethinginteresting.
I decided to see a brain injuryspecialist here in Oregon and
he happened to own a TMS clinic.
But I sought him out they'relike boutiques, yeah.
But I wanted to see him becauseI was trying to document for
this device suit that was comingup and I was trying to get my
(27:54):
damages documented and tied toECT and my medical records,
because that's very difficult todo.
And so I went in to talk to himand he had just gotten back
from an APA conference in NewYork where they were protesting
ECT outside the APA conferenceand we had this lengthy
discussion and his person thatwas dictating all of this, all
(28:16):
my damages.
I had one page of just visualdamages from my brain injury,
nystagmus, I mean, I had justdazed deficits, the VNG was
abnormal, my gait was abnormal,my cerebellum, I had brain stem
damages that he found.
So all this stuff he wasdictating to this person sitting
(28:39):
there and we were talking atlength and I think, oh my God, I
finally have an ally you knowthis is great, he's going to
document this in my chart.
And so he's saying oh, I agree,this is electrical trauma.
And blah, blah, blah, and I'mlike hot diggity dog, I'll take
these notes today.
And he, and then something.
(28:59):
And I should have listened tomy instincts, but I did it once
again.
And so he said let me doctorthese up and put the final on
them and then you can come getthem tomorrow or the next day so
I sleep.
But anyway, he had some time tothink and talk to his partners
and they had that TMS thinggoing on.
And so I tell you I could notget my records from that man for
(29:22):
almost a month.
I had to threaten him to go tothe Office of Civil Rights, like
I did with Kaiser, to get myrecords because he wouldn't turn
them over.
And so what I finally did is Itold him I recorded our
conversation and those recordsbetter not deviate from that
conversation you and I hadaround my damages.
Yeah.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (29:41):
Because I was.
I was going to say.
His next thing out of his mouthwas probably like um, so here's
a membership that you can buyto the team.
Dr Teralyn Sell (29:51):
So I got the record.
It didn't go in at length likehe did in the conversation, but
it showed my damages and I gotthem tied in my records.
Finally and that's very hard todo but these brain injury
programs that patients needreferrals to are tied to these
hospitals often that doelectroshock and so once they
(30:12):
start addressing their damagesthen it puts the hospitals and
the psychiatrists at risk forlawsuit and so that's why these
patients often, I feel, can'tget referrals and plus it will
shut down a very lucrativepractice and all these other
things like TMS might come underquestion.
And all these other things likeTMS might come under question
(30:33):
and these electrical nerve vagusstimulators and other products
that people have a lot of moneyinvested into and research might
be called into question if thedamages.
About electroshock in my damagesis that I have an abnormal MRI
that is progressively worsening,with lesions in my brain that
(30:57):
are atypical for MS and areatypical for your normal white
patches that I think areprobably like Tau from the NFL
damages.
I also have an abnormal EEG.
He called it normal but therewas a feature in it.
He said that was so abnormalhe's never seen it before.
(31:18):
So I call it abnormal.
Um I have abnormal, yeah, and Ihave, uh, abnormal,
progressively abnormalneurocognitive reports and I
carry a label, a majorneurocognitive disorder now
based on my brain injuries.
Um but um.
And another point is is that Iused to have a photographic
memory and now I have aphantasia, meaning I cannot visualize in
(31:42):
my mind at all, I cannot use myimagination at all.
So to try to manifest, to tryto manifest, to try to visual
imagery for like meditation islost to me.
And another feature ofaphantasia is that I don't dream
, or I rarely dream, becausethat's a part of aphantasia as
(32:06):
well, and so when I go to bed atnight, I go to bed to blackness
and I wake up and it's likenothing happened, and so I feel
unresolved a lot of timesbecause we solve so much in our
dreams and so that was takenfrom me.
And another thing that patientsexperience, given the many brain
injuries, is that when you losemuch of your autobiographical
(32:29):
history and you lose thetreasured memories and you lose
the learned life experience, youcannot draw on those learned
life experiences, so you fail tograsp over time lessons that
you should have learned orexperiences that you should have
garnered better given this, andso there's deficits and brain
(32:55):
injury.
You walk around and you don'tappear harmed, but you navigate
daily the stress of it.
And one thing about electricaltrauma is that electrical trauma
also causes PTSD, anxiety anddepression, and so they keep a
constant patient pool goingthrough their program.
Given all of this, Forever.
Jennifer Schmitz (33:17):
You're really the forever consumer you need
more.
Dr Teralyn Sell (33:20):
You need more.
It's not working.
You need more.
You started as a consumer.
Jennifer Schmitz (33:23):
We put interventions on you, such as
psychiatric medications and ECT,but that then keeps you forever
, because now we just took andwe have now created the injuries
, but now we've also createdanxiety, depression, more trauma
.
Right, you're like the dog thatwill always chase its tail.
It's the forever and you willforever be in it, and so money,
(33:47):
money, money, money forever.
Dr Teralyn Sell (33:51):
Until you can escape it.
And see, you know I had a neardeath experience and that's what
really saved my life.
Was that near death experience?
You know it got.
I was, I cleared all thosedrugs I was.
So I'm so grateful.
Even to this day, that neardeath experience impacts me
daily and it saved me.
(34:12):
It rescued me from this verycorrupt system that I found
myself in and it got me out ofit.
It brought me a lawsuit, itgave me enough money to get out
of an abusive marriage and startover again and I'm very
grateful for everything that'shappened to me.
I'm even grateful for theelectric shock because of what
(34:33):
it's given me in my activism andmy purpose, and I'm grateful
for even all the hard timesbecause of the knowledge and the
wisdom that it's given me.
And I think in our trials thatit raises us sometimes where we
may not have raised ourselves,and I heard you say that
(34:56):
sometimes God puts you in prisonto set you free and people out
there that are losing hope.
Don't lose hope, Because yourstory, your redeeming story, is
what God can do for you and Godsaved my life and spared my life
.
Daily.
I feel redeeming story is whatGod can do for you and God saved
my life and spared my lifedaily.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (35:15):
I feel I know that, so I don't know how
we've gotten to this place wheretraumatizing our brains is the
solution to mental health, LikeI, really, I'm having such a
difficult time reconciling this,whether it's psychiatric
medications, ECT, TMS have youseen the ones where they're
(35:39):
shooting some type of I, sometype of I think anesthetic into?
Your nerve or something likethat, and I'm thinking that's
going to come back and haunt you, like there's gotta be.
I don't know how we got to thisplace.
Jennifer Schmitz (35:56):
It literally, when you talk about it this way
and Deborah listening to you andjust what you just said, terry,
it takes me back to uh, I gottagive a shout out to Robert
Whitaker here and his Mad inAmerica publication and his book
in the first, like you know.
Third of that book is all aboutthe history of this iatrogenic
care and it's interesting tohear people talking about this.
(36:17):
And we're going to electrocutethe brain.
Okay, we're talking about ECT.
We're talking about TMS.
We're going to injectsubstances into somebody's
nerves or into their main veinsin their body, like this is just
all the crazy ass shit that wasdone in the late 1800s, early
1900s, early 1920s, like the way.
(36:39):
Like what, what, what are we?
We're?
I don't, I don't, I don't knowwhat we're doing.
Dr Teralyn Sell (36:45):
I don't know, I can't even.
Jennifer Schmitz (36:50):
It's getting me so, like just listening to
what you've been through,deborah, I don't know what the
fuck we're doing.
Like when, when did it becomeOK?
I'm totally taking what youwere trying to say, terry.
I'm like fucking going on ahigh horse here.
I'm sorry, but when did thesolution become to harm the most
important organ of the body?
Dr Teralyn Sell (37:05):
Right.
Well, I think it's power, and Ithink it's power and control,
and I think I think women aremost at risk for this, this type
of abuse that can occur.
If you're a strong woman, youknow, if you're got a big mouth
on you and you're opinionated,you know.
I had all these DSM codes and,and my feeling now is that I was
(37:26):
neurodivergent, that I'mautistic on the spectrum and
ADHD, and my communication isvery direct when I'm not clouded
with a bunch of drugs and and Ican push people wrong and
that's not my intention at alland and, and, and and.
I think that.
Think that if you have aproblem with a psychiatrist and
(37:47):
you get caught in this system,you'll pay.
You know, and you'll pay dearly.
Jennifer Schmitz (37:53):
You know, Dr Yosef was on our show and he
coined this term.
And now, for the life of me, Ican't remember what it was
called.
Do you remember Terry?
Deborah Schwartzkopff (38:01):
I don't remember, but I do have to bring
this.
I want to bring this up becauseI just was curious.
How many men versus women doECT?
Oh, approximately two-thirds ofthe patients receiving ECT are
women.
The remaining third are men.
Now, this is the interestingpart to me, because this is the
gas-eating part.
This gender disparity in ECTuse is likely related to the
(38:25):
higher prevalence of depressionin women, and I'm like that is
the biggest gaslightingstatement of the planet, because
women have historically beenlooked at as the psychiatric
patient or the depressed patient, or the anxious patient, and so
we are the cash cow ofpsychiatry, really, because we
(38:48):
and women and women need to getreally angry that this is
happening.
Dr Teralyn Sell (38:52):
I mean, you can lose your career from this, you
can become financiallydependent on an abusive
situation, you're easier togaslight, you're easier to
coerce and control and you can'tprotect your children if you're
highly impaired by brain injuryand all these drugs.
And so women really need totake a rise up against this
(39:14):
practice and see it for what itis social media platforms and
have conversations.
These psychiatrists, I think,would become very anxious and
scared that their game ofinflicting these brain injuries
and misrepresenting this forwhat it truly is would maybe
reconsider these hospitals.
(39:36):
And that's what it would takeis just coming forward and
saying look, let's have aconversation.
You know, brain injury programsrecognize mechanism of injury,
like ER trauma medicine does,and this is a brain injury, and
the courts even said this is abrain injury.
So you better be calling itwhat it is and addressing that.
Jennifer Schmitz (39:54):
And none of those medical model things are
followed.
I think it's very interestingwhat you said, Debra, before
about if you had somebody thatwould come in and had a brain
injury right, there would be asuccession of tests and
assessments that would be doneon that individual.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (40:11):
Not just that, but there'd be PT, OT,
there'd be all types oftherapies offered.
Jennifer Schmitz (40:17):
So it's not as though when you got done with
this, an MRI was done and a youknow, an MRI was done and a CT
scan of your brain was done andblood tests were done.
We're going to look at all ofyour levels.
Then you're going to bereferred to PT so that you can
work through I don't know, notaccidentally showing up in
somebody's bathroom or goingthrough a window in their house
right.
Like none of that.
That.
None of that is part of thispicture, which is very
(40:40):
fascinating.
Dr Teralyn Sell (40:44):
Yeah and you can't.
You can't get the help and and,because if you address the
brain injury, then you'recalling out what this really is
if you're getting services forit.
So when I was trying to getneurocognitive rehab or even to
get a neurologist to evaluatethis, I tell you, knowing what I
know from ER medicine or traumamedicine, I was literally
thrown out of.
I went from this doctor thatidentified me with the brain
injury and didn't want to putall my damages down.
(41:05):
I went to see aneuro-ophthalmologist.
This neuro-ophthalmologist,when I asked him to put my
damages in my records, tied toECT, like this other doctor did,
he would not do it.
He started calling memanipulative and all these other
things, and he had a medicalstudent in the room.
I feel so bad for this medicalstudent, all these other things
and I.
He had a medical student in theroom.
(41:26):
I feel so bad for this medicalstudent.
But I called this guy out.
I said you're just protectinghis practice and I let him have
it.
He literally kicked me out ofhis office.
Jennifer Schmitz (41:32):
I told that medical.
I told that medical.
Don't you forget that.
Dr Teralyn Sell (41:38):
I was so ticked off.
But so, yeah, you can, you canlet them do that.
So, uh, where was my point at?
But you, you get, you've got toget the help.
Um, oh, the neurocognitive umproblem.
You gotta, you gotta, get theneurocognitive rehab done and
and don't let them gaslight.
You, you know, bring theinformation with you.
(41:59):
You know that this isrecognized you to cause brain
injury, and they know it.
Jennifer Schmitz (42:09):
So and the other issue?
The other issue is that NAMI,you know, everybody knows.
Dr Teralyn Sell (42:13):
NAMI, bring it.
Bring it, debra.
We want to hear it.
Nami supports this.
You know I go to NAMI, walk andpass out leaflets.
They don't want to hear aboutit, you know.
Oh, brain injuries.
We're happy with that.
We don't care what's going onwith people in our organization
and I sent them all snail mailletters because my email gets
interrupted and so they all gotletters.
They won't pass on informationthat I want to help their
(42:33):
members do these doctors.
They won't share this.
And if I was in NAMI and I hadan opportunity to see the
benefits that I have now forlife and the leadership didn't
let me I would be ticked and soNAMI supports this.
And but we all know NAMIsupported 75% by big pharma.
(42:54):
And if you go in there tryingto disparage what psychiatry
says, what big pharma says,you're an outcast and they won't
listen to you for the most part.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (43:05):
Yeah, no, we're not.
Jennifer Schmitz (43:09):
Oh wait, she, she froze on us.
I think what she was going tosay is we are not fans of NAMI,
and actually we have called acouple of times on the show, and
because of this, they supportthe very things that actually
cause significant harm to people, and you're not wrong.
Now NAMI claims that they arenot taking any types of
(43:31):
kickbacks from Big Pharma, butfor a very long time, and a good
chunk of NAMI's foundation,they were.
So we are not a big fan.
So, terry, I just tried tofinish your sentence because you
paused there.
So I think I got it.
I think I got you.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (43:57):
I think you did it.
I think I got you because Iused to work for a traumatic
brain injury rehab center many,many, many years ago and it was
very cutting edge and it was forpeople who had, like they would
get into bicycle accidents andthey literally had to learn to
feed themselves.
They literally had to learn todo these things all over again.
Jennifer Schmitz (44:24):
And it might need to be there you're cutting
it out.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (44:28):
You're cutting it out, it's okay, but
anyways, they had to waitthemselves yeah, they, but they
were offered every single, nomatter the degree of the tbi.
They're offered every singleintervention that a person could
possibly have.
And now you are literally goingin.
If, if the doctor would say,listen, you're going in, you're
going to come out with atraumatic brain injury, if that
(44:48):
were part of the informedconsent, would you do it?
You know, would you.
And you're going to do it ninetimes.
You're going to have a TB.
We're going to give you nineTBIs in a row, sometimes for you
twice a day.
A TBI two times a day.
I'm like are you kidding?
No, I don't want to do thatAbsolutely not.
Dr Teralyn Sell (45:11):
The list would be too long for all the damages
that electrical trauma causes tobe in consent to be adequate.
And when you're addressinggetting help and I lost my train
of thought when I was talkingearlier, I can go off sometimes.
And when you're addressinggetting help and I lost my train
of thought when I was talkingearlier, I can go off sometimes,
but when I was trying to gethelp and I couldn't get the
(45:34):
appropriate help, what I finallythought to do was I was really
compromised Because when I cameback from getting off all these
drugs, you know, and I had tosue my psychiatrist and I
started ECT Justice at that timetoo, I didn't even have a Gmail
account.
I didn't even know what YouTubeaccount.
I didn't even know what YouTubewas.
I really did not.
I was just so out of it.
I recall my son having to setup a Gmail account.
That's how compromised I was.
And so when I came back and Iknew what a hard time I was
(45:58):
having, I decided to volunteerin an elementary school
classroom because I knew workingwith third graders.
I should have started withfirst graders.
I'd learn that later, butthey're screwing poor kids up
with their math.
But I would volunteer in theclassrooms with his kids because
they helped me with art.
You know, because I've gonedeficits with my spatial
(46:18):
perception and stuff.
Helped with art, with reading,word identifying issues.
Um, math was a problem for meand so working with these kids
was helping me, so that's how Igot my early neurocognitive
workouts in um, but rehab, yeah,yeah yeah, but uh, yes, you
(46:39):
need the resources to have someassistance.
And when these poor patients,you know, are going to their
family members saying, look, youknow, something's really wrong
with me and the family's oh,your doctor says it's your
depression, you need more shockor maybe you need to dial your
medications, you know.
And these people are going,what's going on?
They get, they get reallyscared and I mean I've had such
(46:59):
depersonalization orderealization, whatever you want
to call it.
I've had such depersonalizationor derealization, whatever you
want to call it, where I was inPortland and I didn't know I was
in the city.
It's like the city melted awayfrom me.
I was just like in space and itwas terrifying and I knew my
brain was causing me a problem.
So I was trying not to panic,but it was like a glitch.
And I'm not the only one thathas this.
(47:21):
And one other thing I need toaddress and I don't want to talk
too much, but these are suchimportant topics is that the
betrayal that patients feelaround when they finally start
to step out of things or becomerealized what's transpired and
how their lives have beendevastated by this down the road
, if not now down the road, whattheir psychiatrist did to them,
(47:46):
what they promoted for them anda lot of times family will
support the psychiatrist inwanting them to have ECT and the
many conversations that I'vehad with people that report.
They can't even talk to theirfamily members about their
distress because they don't wanttheir family members feeling
responsible or feeling that theyhurt their loved one by
(48:06):
suggesting this if they told thefull truth of what goes on for
them on a daily basis.
And that is their concern.
Their concern is to protecttheir psychiatrist, often to
protect their loved ones, andmeanwhile you know they're
contemplating suicide becausethey can't access the services
and family members are notwarned and family NAMI groups
(48:27):
need to know that their lovedone is really struggling with
these brain injury outcomes andanything else in the body that
may come up now or down the road.
Jennifer Schmitz (48:35):
Yeah, yeah, deborah, tell us about ECT
justice.
Tell us a little bit, oh God.
Dr Teralyn Sell (48:41):
Well, that's, that's kind of a miracle for me
because, like I said, I justcame back from detoxing all
these drugs.
I can't tell you much about it.
It's kind of what weirdlyhappened.
I had no computer skills and sowhen I got back, I knew that
number one.
I wanted to see thepsychiatrist.
Number two I think I started in2011, 2012.
I can't even tell you the datenow, but I think I started 2011,
(49:03):
2012.
I can't even tell you the datenow, but I knew I wanted an
advocacy site because I knewthat this was brain injury.
When I cleared, my trauma nursekicked back in and I realized
what the F you know, you knoware they doing to patients, you
know, and there's going to becommonalities.
My story is not the only storyout there and so I wanted to
find damages because I knewright from the get-go.
Jennifer Schmitz (49:25):
I'm good at bringing lawsuits.
Dr Teralyn Sell (49:26):
I'm good at finding attorneys.
Sooner or later I find them.
I'm thinking about a businessfor that, actually.
But anyway, I decided I wantedto sue my psychiatrist and I
wanted to eventually suesomething around electroshock
somebody around electroshock maplawsuit and so that's when I
started ECT Justice.
(49:46):
Somehow I found a person thatknew how to do websites.
I don't know how I found them,can't tell you and I have to
attribute source in my life thatmy inspiration comes from
source often, that when I speak,often I'm inspired to speak and
I'm not any more special thananybody else.
(50:06):
Everybody has access to source.
But I don't take full humanlycredit for ECT justice or for my
advocacy work, because there'sadvocates and activists around
the world working on this issuethat see how harmful, either
through lived experience, orthey have a loved ones that has
had this, and they how harmfuleither through lived experience
or they have a loved ones thathas had this, and they want to
see this stop and they want tosee a better way for mental
(50:29):
health care other than druggingthem and and electrocuting
patients, and find anotherhumanity again.
So that that's that's, that'sall source.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (50:41):
I'm telling you if I ever decide to
build an advocacy platformbigger than what we're doing.
You're, you're in deborah,you're in.
Jennifer Schmitz (50:48):
Thank you very much.
Thank you, you're hired.
Your job is going to get uskicked off of reddit at least
150 times hired.
Dr Teralyn Sell (50:58):
I'm talking 12 hours.
Yes, oh, my god, I going to say, yeah, get us kicked off, it's
been less than 60 seconds.
Jennifer Schmitz (51:05):
Oh, it's been really.
Uh, it's been an honor to haveyou come on this show.
Dr Teralyn Sell (51:13):
Thank you so much, I appreciate you.
Jennifer Schmitz (51:16):
Your, your advocacy is.
It's really cool.
We've had, we've had a lot ofpeople on this show that are
here to tell, yes, their story,but their story is so big, it's
so much bigger than them, andthey want to come on and talk
about how they are trying tochange the world.
Change the game, change thenarrative, call the bullshit out
(51:36):
.
That's happening and that'swhat you're doing.
Dr Teralyn Sell (51:42):
We're all doing it.
We're all doing it together.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (51:44):
Yes, yeah , I know when I happened to run
across your TikTok, I was likeshe needs to be on Immediately.
Dr Teralyn Sell (51:53):
I have to pay to promote those darn TikToks.
It's costing me a fortune.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's allthe way I get views.
Yeah, they shut it down.
They don't like it.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (52:05):
Oh my gosh.
Jennifer Schmitz (52:06):
See, that's not right?
Deborah Schwartzkopff (52:08):
No, I know, thank you.
Jennifer Schmitz (52:10):
Debra for being here.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (52:11):
Thank you .
Jennifer Schmitz (52:12):
We are in your corner supporting you and if
everybody, if you stay to theend.
Here we are the Guess the Truthpodcast and you can find us
anywhere that you listen topodcasts.
We and you can find us anywherethat you listen to podcasts.
We are on all the socials aswell.
So make sure you hit us up andmake sure that you hit Debra up,
even though she's probably onher fourth or fifth account at
that point, and that's fine.
So if it looks like there's nota lot of content, it's because
(52:37):
she had to fucking start overand that grand find.
But thank you guys, please,please, make sure that if you
have stories you want to tell,send us your gaslit truth
stories at the gaslit truthpodcast at gmailcom, and you'll
have to check out ECT justiceand if you ever do, knowing that
the founder of that and thatwas that was Debra, and out of
all of the pain comes this bigsilver lining of changing the
(52:58):
world.
So thanks, debra.
Dr Teralyn Sell (53:00):
Thank you very much.
See ya Bye.
Hey everyone, you have been gaslit into
believing that electroconvulsivetherapy, ect, is safe and
effective.
We are your whistleblowingshrinks, dr Teralyn and
therapist Jen.
We're here to pull back thecurtain on what no one else is
going to tell you about ECT.
And we have a very specialguest here this morning Debra
Schwarzkopf.
Welcome to the show, debra.
Dr Teralyn Sell (00:24):
Thanks very much for having me.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (00:26):
Thank you , yeah you're welcome, I do want
to add in here that Jen and Idid an episode a while ago where
she talked about her experiencewitnessing ECT in her graduate
program and we got so manypeople saying that's not right,
that's not how it's done.
It's effective, it's safe, it'sall these things so.
I am stoked to have you on heretoday to talk about this,
(00:51):
because I think there is a lotof misinformation going around
about ECT in today's world right?
Jennifer Schmitz (01:00):
Yes, absolutely, and everybody.
Deborah is a retired level onetrauma nurse and she's actually
the former owner of ECT Justice,and we're going to have to talk
a little bit about ECT Justice.
It's a survivor's website forthose who have been through ECT
and actually is now owned by anattorney law firm since like
2019.
But you started that, and so weare going to talk a little bit
(01:23):
about that too, because I thinkthat's a very important thing to
talk about as well.
So, deborah, welcome to theshow.
It is, like Terry said, great tohave you on here, because it
was as if my experience ofsomeone who is a graduate
student watching patients gothrough this I wrote a paper on
this and it was as if what I sawwasn't real.
(01:44):
People were dismissing this,people were dismissing the
process of it and that thisisn't done in modern day, or I
would get the opposite of peoplesaying this is wrong, it's
super effective, it helps people.
The grotesque way in whichyou're saying this occurs, what
people are going through, that'snot how it's done, and blah,
blah, blah, blah all thisbullshit.
(02:08):
So it's really great to haveyou come on the show, to
actually be able to speak asanother voice about this as
someone who has went through itas well.
So, debra, why don't you startby kind of telling us how you
got to this space, whereelectroconvulsive shock therapy
was even part of a treatmentplan for you?
Dr Teralyn Sell (02:22):
Well, like Teralyn, I had had some
experiences with SSRIs and I hada very bad reaction to an SSRI
at one point.
Prozac was my first issue thatI had.
I became manic on the drug.
I became preoccupied with guns.
(02:44):
I became preoccupied withhostages.
That's not my baseline at all.
The psychiatrist that wasseeing me had seen me for a
couple of years and realizedthat this was not my baseline,
that this was the first drug shewas trying with me me and when
(03:07):
this incident involved a SWATteam outside my hotel room, at
one point she withdrew the drugimmediately, and those thoughts
left my mind completely.
I happened to be in an abusivemarriage.
I didn't realize fully at thetime what was going on in the
marriage.
It was narcissistic abuse, andso I've been gaslit a lot, and
so I became the problem which isnot uncommon in abusive
(03:29):
situations for women a lot oftimes to seek help when they're
in a vulnerable position likethat, and often it's a result of
childhood trauma to the choicesthat you make later, of course,
and so there are multiplefactors going on, and so when
(03:49):
the drug was withdrawn, we movedand I started seeing another
psychiatrist and she againwanted me to try a new SSRI that
was on the market and again asimilar situation happened, and
so, instead of the drug beingstopped, this time I was given a
list of DSM codes.
I was given a list of drugs,and because this involved my
(04:13):
personal feelings, because thisinvolved a threat to a
psychiatrist that I was punishedfor years to follow, and I
think that's why my experiencehad some of the outcomes that it
did, because I feel that thepsychiatrist may have been quite
vindictive and understandably,I mean, it was a threat for her
(04:34):
and so she did not tie it to theSSRI drug, however, and so
that's how I ended up gettingelectroshock too.
That was recommended, and so Iwas in Barry Maletsky's ECT
research program, so I would getseveral ECT a day in his
(04:54):
research program and a day, yeah, and, and he, that was his
research, and later most of myelectroshock was done at Kaiser
Permanente.
And yeah, yeah, and a lot ofpeople don't realize.
People don't realize these,these big HMOs and these
(05:16):
hospitals in your community areusing electroshock, and we would
do protests over at KaiserPermanente and we would try to
hit lunchtime hours for staff tocome out and see this and they
would say why are you doingthese protests here.
Kaiser doesn't do electroshockand you did let them know.
Yes, in fact, they do doelectroshock.
(05:37):
I'm going to get away from mystory because I'm more of an
activist on this issue than Iwant to go on about my story,
because my story is sosimilarpractice suit, and the
very next one required apsychiatric medical malpractice
suit as well, and the next oneafter that required reporting to
(06:22):
the board.
Something is going on that isdocumentable and that that a
legal court would hold up, andso this is not just my story.
And these drugs that areprescribed land people in such
precarious positions sometimesand not warned that coming off.
These drugs is very difficultto come off of and patients
should have the right to knowthat.
But I ended up getting a lot ofelectroshock Again, being in an
(06:43):
abusive marriage.
My husband was all for this,because when you have
electroshock you're receiving anacquired traumatic brain injury
based on mechanism of trauma,and these brain injuries dumb
you down, they shut you up, theyquiet you, they make you
complicit and compliant, and youdon't always see your damages
right away.
And so a lot of people say, oh,ect saved my life, or or, you
(07:08):
know, it was my only option.
And I say to them thatinitially the euphoria you feel
you are very suggestible givenyour neurocompromise.
You are you, you're.
You look to your psychiatristas your savior on some level and
you don't want to disappointthat psychiatrist and the nurses
are saying, oh, you look somuch better and giving all this
(07:31):
positive reinforcement.
And your family says, oh, youlook so much better because
you're shut down, you're notcomplaining, you've forgotten
what brought you into thehospital.
You've forgotten your shittymarriage that you're in.
You've forgotten that you'rebeing abused and you're trying
to leave and your husband'screating all these problems for
you.
So you turn your psychiatristand you say this is what's going
on.
And they label you with allthese labels instead of giving
(07:53):
you the appropriate help thatyou need and shutting you
further down with these drugsand this electroshock.
And then these people that haveelectroshock I'm getting hoarse.
These people that haveelectroshock because of their
many brain injuries.
They can't get the resourcesthat all other TBI patients have
access to to suicide becausethey're gaslit into thinking
(08:27):
they don't have a brain injuryand they have a change up in
their psychiatric medications orthey're given more ECT.
I have peers that are terrifiedto go see a psychiatrist to
reach out for help, becauseelectrocution or electroshock is
used as torture in somesocieties and so they're afraid
to go for help.
And if you're in an abusivesituation, that man will use
this against help.
And if you're in an abusivesituation, that man will use
this against you.
(08:47):
And if you have a child, hewill threaten to take that child
and see you as an unfit parent.
And I lost a peer, nina, tosuicide because she was in a
marriage that was abusive andshe had electroshock and she
couldn't remember how to takecare of her child and all her
family members.
Most of her family members werein the medical profession A
(09:09):
mother who was a nurse, abrother who was a doctor, who
all kept telling her to havemore electroshock instead of
getting her the appropriate helpthat she needed.
I talked to her almost dailybecause she was afraid to see a
psychiatrist or anybody inmental health care.
At that point I tried to fixher up with a friend of mine
that lived close to her to giveher added support, and she
(09:30):
called my friend, called me andsaid that Nina had hung herself,
and the day before Nina hungherself she sent me a picture of
her holding her dog, and sothis is not uncommon to happen
to people who are gaslit aroundtheir brain injuries.
You look at these NFL playerswho become violent or commit
(09:51):
suicide because of their two orthree concussions.
Who was the pathologist whoidentified CTE and the NFL head
injuries was also speaking onbehalf of ECT plaintiffs in a
court case that went to theCalifornia Supreme Court.
(10:12):
He spoke on behalf of ECTpatients and to me that says a
great deal on what is missingfrom consent.
Jennifer Schmitz (10:20):
Consent.
Can you talk a little bit Debraabout and I know that you don't
want to make it just your story, but I think there's a lot of
truth that's helpful for peopleto hear, because you went
through this what was consentfor you when it came to the
discussion around ECT?
What were you told?
Dr Teralyn Sell (10:39):
Okay, when I was in this system and after
this incident had taken placewith this psychiatrist, I came
under the care of a psychiatristthat over-medicated me.
That resulted in a psychiatricmedical malpractice.
I was prescribed benzos at avan at 25 milligrams a day.
(11:00):
At a van it's usually 1 to 6milligrams a day.
I was prescribed 25 milligrams.
Sarah Queller is taken at 1,200milligrams a day At advantage,
usually one to six milligrams aday.
I was prescribed 25 milligrams.
Seroquel is taken at 1200milligrams a day.
I was on Ambien.
Ambien's five to 10.
At bedtime I was prescribed 10milligrams four times a day.
That's not the only hypnotic,that was not the only benzos.
(11:22):
Because of all the amnesiaeffects I was having, all these
overdoses.
You know, I'm sure there weretimes I did try to commit
suicide because my life was shitduring all this time and
because of the paradoxicalresponse.
Because of all the benzos youdon't sleep and so I would go
days without sleeping, to thepoint of vomiting and
hallucinating, and they wouldsay, oh, she's manic, when they
(11:44):
knew full well it was aparadoxical response to these
benzos and so what would happenis is I would overdose and I was
always in the emergency room Onaverage.
When I brought this lawsuit itshowed that I was in the
hospital studying on averageevery 15 days for one thing or
another, and when I'd OD, I'dOD'd on everything you know my
(12:07):
heart medicine, my thyroid, Imean.
You know, my husband said Iwould just fill a candy dish and
just scarf it down, notthinking you know.
And then, when you can't sleep,I was trying to self-medicate
with alcohol and so I wasdrinking a bottle of 151 Bacardi
every other day with all thesedrugs, trying to sleep, and
nobody would assist me.
(12:27):
I was so out of it I couldn'tassist myself.
And so and so and when.
And I think that was such, asuch a hard realization when I,
when I came off of all thesedrugs to realize in retrospect
and reading all these recordsthat I was the kind of ER nurse
(12:49):
that if I saw a patient come inwith a list of drugs like that
repeated overdoses after thesecond time in a month, you know
I would be following.
I mean I was the type of nurseI would follow you outside the
ER.
I mean that's crossingboundaries, I'm sure.
But if I knew that situationwas that critical I would have
done it.
And in one month alone I hadsix ICU admits, so people knew
(13:14):
what was going on.
And then what would happen isI'd be brought into Kaiser
Permanente, dropped down to onemilligram every six hours of
Ativan, shamed for the drugsthat I was taking, you know,
discharged with the same amountof drugs I was prescribed when I
came in after another overdose.
And this went on for sevenyears.
(13:34):
And what finally happened?
Oh and then they would bring mein and they would electroshock
me.
Benzos are given to stopseizures and so my levels were
so toxic it makes me ill tothink how high they had to crank
that ect machine up to overridethe level of benzos in my
system.
They had to crank that thingway high to get me to seize.
(13:57):
I know they did.
And so consent basically saysyou'll have a headache, you'll
have some jaw pain, you'll'llhave memory loss for the time
around procedure expected toreturn.
You may have some long-termmemory loss, but that is rare.
You'll have your anesthesiarisk.
That's pretty much it.
(14:17):
Electrical trauma low voltage.
Electrical trauma impacts everycell, every system in the human
body.
Jennifer Schmitz (14:25):
Tell us about what that actually is.
For some people listening, Idon't know if they have a good
understanding of the basicdescription of what ECT actually
is.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (14:35):
So yeah, can you?
Jennifer Schmitz (14:35):
share that, Deborah yeah.
Dr Teralyn Sell (14:37):
As an ER nurse, I know, if this happened in any
other incident one time to apatient that resulted in
unresponsiveness and seizureshow it would be seen and treated
Initially.
You would know that an acquiredtraumatic brain injury would
occur.
You can get an acquiredtraumatic brain injury from low
voltage electrical traumahitting your arm, never mind
(14:58):
your head, and so you would havean acquired traumatic brain
injury.
You would also anticipatecardiac issues.
That person would be on acardiac monitor at least 24
hours.
You would be drawing a varietyof labs following electrical
trauma.
Every cell, every system, thebody runs on electricity.
That's how the body generates,and every cell, every system and
(15:23):
every organ is impacted byelectrical trauma.
There was actually apsychiatrist.
This is how ill-informedpsychiatry is around this
procedure that they use.
There was actually apsychiatrist on.
I'm throwing off redheads, sothat's out of the question.
Oh, it was Cora Cora.
I've been throwing off so manyplatforms you don't know I love
(15:43):
it who?
I've been throwing off so manyplatforms you don't know, but
anyway this psychiatrist wastelling his pregnant woman that
because she wanted to have morelike he was suggesting she had
more electric shock, that thiswouldn't impact the baby, that
it just goes to the head Likefrom here down nothing happens.
So I had to educate thispsychiatrist I think I was
thrown off after that for awhile but educate him about
(16:06):
electrical trauma, how itimpacts every cell, every system
and people.
It's so frustrating that peoplethat have had this you know
some of these people defend thisbecause they don't realize that
electrical trauma evolves overtime and damages.
You may think you're a-okay nowbecause of your brain injury.
(16:28):
You don't see because of theanosognosia where you don't
recognize the severity of yourincurred damages again because
of your brain injury.
So you're punch drunk.
You're punch drunk.
Jennifer Schmitz (16:39):
It's just like psychiatric meds.
Debra, it's that same thing.
When we're talking aboutanosognosia, it's the same thing
.
Right, like you're spellbound,not realizing what's going to
happen, and then, over time,this is when this starts to
occur, just like psychiatricmeds, and the common denominator
here is psychiatry.
(17:06):
Just so that everybody knowswhen you're listening, here too,
electroconvulsive shock therapyis not done by a medical doctor
, guys.
Ect is not something that thiscould be performed by psychiatry
.
This is where this actuallystarted was by psychiatrists
trying to get their name in thefield and trying to make a name
for themselves within the field.
(17:27):
They were at the bottom totempole of what medical recognition
was.
So, for those of you that maybedon't have a lot of knowledge
on this, you can go back andlook at the etiology of this,
and part of this was coming fromthese individuals trying to
make a name for themselves inthe field.
So they are.
They are performing.
Psychiatrists are the ones thatare performing these electrical
(17:48):
brain injuries, which is whatis happening, everybody.
When you are doing ECT, you areactually stimulating an
electrical injury to the brain,right?
Dr Teralyn Sell (17:59):
And the whole body.
Jennifer Schmitz (18:00):
Simplify yeah, I'm in the body.
I'm simplifying this, debra,because I think some people
don't have as much knowledge onwhat all of this is.
I don't want to cut you off andminimize what you're saying,
and that's not my intent.
It's more about giving generalinformation.
Here we are creating injuriesto the brain.
We need to get to a point ofseizing and that's what we're
(18:23):
doing.
So everybody, when she wassaying that that's what's
happening, that is the functionof ECT is to get somebody to a
point where they are having aseizure to the brain.
That is happening, that's goingto generate through the entire
body.
Dr Teralyn Sell (18:34):
Then yeah, this is what they say.
And just because it's cleanlooking, just because you're
using a paralytic and theanesthesia you know, the force
of these seizures is so strongthat if the paralytics were not
used, you would break your longbones, which take a great deal
of trauma to fracture.
Jennifer Schmitz (18:52):
I don't want to cut you off here, but as
somebody who watched thishappening multiple times to
patients I, I, I wouldn't Iwould say that that is such a
like the world will glamorizeECD.
Like you go to these boutiquetype like places where I'm just
going to go in, I'm just goingto get my brain zapped, I'm just
going to have an electricallike trauma happen to my brain
(19:13):
and then I'm going to come outand be fine.
When you're in it, though andif there are people that will
disagree with me on this but Iwatched this happen multiple
times there is nothing beautifulabout this, and you are not
incorrect.
The way people are medicated,the way that people are strapped
down, devices are put in yourmouth so that you don't bite
(19:35):
your tongue off or chew holes inthe insides of your mouths this
is what it looks like when it'sbeing done.
It's not beautiful people atall.
So this idea that there's somekind of glam behind this or that
it's not a horrific trauma thisis what I watched as a student,
(19:55):
watching this happen to people.
It was horrific.
That's what you see.
So I'm not sure how that hasbecome glamorized.
You know what I mean and I knowyou're the one that's actually
been there and had this done toyou.
But when you came out of thisDebra, like was it just like?
(20:17):
There you were sitting and lifewas fine and you were
unstrapped and you were sittingin the chair, all nice and life
was good.
Is that what happens when youwake up from this?
Dr Teralyn Sell (20:28):
What happens when you wake up from this is
that you usually don't rememberthe immediate time after.
You usually don't remember fora period of time.
It's in kind of a retrospect.
You do know that you haveheadaches.
I do know that I had a sense ofconfusion, that I had to be
(20:48):
guided, that I was so confused.
I do recall one time that I wascaught going into somebody
else's bathroom trying to climbinto their bed because I was
grossly confused, and I rememberlater in a group meeting that I
was being shamed for thatbecause of boundaries or
something like that, not.
And now it makes me angrybecause I've seen this is my
(21:11):
third TBI this week who wouldn'tbe stumbling around in somebody
else's room.
And so this procedure ismisrepresented and medical
malpractice attorneys now findcause around consent and they
find cause around medicalbattery to bring lawsuits around
(21:34):
this issue.
And so people that want tocontinue with ECT or consider
ECT my feeling is that that isyour free choice to do what you
like, but my point is is thatyou deserve to have the full
information to give true,informed consent.
(21:55):
When I consented I was soimpaired with all the
benzodiazepines I was not in alegal situation to be consenting
for anything, and so that wasan illegal consent obtained.
When you're emotionallydistraught, you know you're not
in a position to be agreeing tosomething that's going to impact
you the rest of your life.
(22:17):
Once you start consenting tothis, a lot of consents are done
in a series format.
So that means like between oneand 12, you sign one consent.
Not all hospitals do this andthey screw up because right
behind them doing the seriesformat for the ECT, anesthesia
comes along and they consent forevery procedure.
So illegally, they're settingthemselves up for suit by doing
(22:40):
that If anesthesia is going toconsent, they better consent for
series two and then, once theseries has started and you're
having brain injuries and yourmemory is gone, you can't
withdraw that consent.
You know what I'm saying.
So you're caught up for thatwhole 12 and they get their
insurance payout.
You know, because this pays bigmoney.
(23:01):
People don't know the amount ofmoney that this one, the ECT
device, generates for a hospital, and the FDA has never tested
this for safety or effectivenessIn decades.
They failed to meet theirobligations around this practice
and the procedure and thedevices.
The devices have never hadpre-market approval.
(23:22):
They don't test my feelingsbecause I know full well that
this is brain injury withsystemic risks, short and long
term.
Cte, als, cardiac issue visualissues.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (23:35):
I wanted to talk about the CTE part
because if you guys don't knowwhat CTE is, I'm going to read
what it is and it gets publicitywith athletes and multiple
concussions.
Dr Teralyn Sell (23:47):
And that's why Dr O'Malley was the expert at
the ECT device suit.
He was the expert for ECTpatients?
Deborah Schwartzkopff (23:54):
Yes, because how is this any
different?
It's a different mechanism.
You feel better.
We have to electric shock yourbrain, which, as you were
(24:15):
talking about before, you wouldnever get struck by a lightning
bolt and they would let you beright.
You would have multiple testing, all these things, but you're
not.
It's interesting because I usedto.
I knew this MD and he was anincredible human, super smart.
He would talk about psychiatryas if this is the only surgical
procedure that a psychiatristcan do.
(24:36):
So if you are a psychiatristthat does ECT, you're like a
surgeon, right.
It brings a certain level ofexpertise and a different
surgical procedure that you cannow do aside from just
prescribing medication.
(24:56):
So it gives them a little bitmore ego in that.
And I also wanted to bring inthis idea that any procedure
that a psychiatrist does, fromprescribing to ECT, has brain
injury.
Like that is like the desiredoutcome is a injury to your
brain.
Jennifer Schmitz (25:16):
It's either a synthetic brain injury or a
structural brain injury.
This is the bottom line.
Dr Teralyn Sell (25:22):
There's brain injuries happening.
Jennifer Schmitz (25:23):
Don't forget to read what you're going to
read, so people understand whereyou were going with that.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (25:27):
I'm sorry .
I could tell you were startingand I want you to bring this
into play because it's important.
Jennifer Schmitz (25:30):
Oh, but I lost it.
I'm sorry.
I could tell you were startingand I want you to bring this
into play because I think it'simportant.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (25:33):
Oh, but I lost it.
I lost this.
Oh no, there it is.
There it is.
Multiple concussions can lead toa condition called chronic
traumatic encephalopathy CTE, aprogressive degenerative brain
disease associated withlong-term exposure to repeated
head impacts.
While not all individuals withmultiple concussions develop CTE
(25:54):
, the risk increases with thenumber and severity of
concussions.
Other potential long-termeffects of multiple concussions
include post-concussion syndromeand cognitive impairments.
And so we see that in athletes.
We see that in football,players and boxers are like the
two biggest that they talk aboutand the only way that they can
(26:15):
diagnose that is post-mortem.
So when they look at the brainin a post-mortem way, and so
there'd be no way to diagnosethis with ECT unless someone who
went through ECT said, hey,post-mortem, I want you to look
at my brain, I want you to beable to do that.
But this is also the CTE causesa lot of, I'll say, impulsivity
(26:41):
and also suicidality.
And so that's when they look atthese young athletes who are
like going off to college andthey're doing great and suddenly
they take their own lives, andthey're like what is the matter
here?
And it's because they enduredmultiple concussions and they
have CTE.
So when you talk about this,made you want to end your life
(27:02):
and you did things to do.
To me that all makes sense.
Because it doesn't make sense,it didn't make logical sense for
you to have that type of animpulse until after the ECT.
And I just want to bring in onemore thing, and you may not
know anything about this,because this isn't exactly the
same thing, but TMS,transmagnetic stimulation that's
(27:23):
got to be the next thing.
I mean, it's the next braininjury thing, correct?
I mean you can't stick magnetson your brain and expect nothing
to happen.
Dr Teralyn Sell (27:32):
Well I'll, you can't stick magnets on your
brain and expect nothing tohappen.
Well, I'll tell you somethinginteresting.
I decided to see a brain injuryspecialist here in Oregon and
he happened to own a TMS clinic.
But I sought him out they'relike boutiques, yeah.
But I wanted to see him becauseI was trying to document for
this device suit that was comingup and I was trying to get my
(27:54):
damages documented and tied toECT and my medical records,
because that's very difficult todo.
And so I went in to talk to himand he had just gotten back
from an APA conference in NewYork where they were protesting
ECT outside the APA conferenceand we had this lengthy
discussion and his person thatwas dictating all of this, all
(28:16):
my damages.
I had one page of just visualdamages from my brain injury,
nystagmus, I mean, I had justdazed deficits, the VNG was
abnormal, my gait was abnormal,my cerebellum, I had brain stem
damages that he found.
So all this stuff he wasdictating to this person sitting
(28:39):
there and we were talking atlength and I think, oh my God, I
finally have an ally you knowthis is great, he's going to
document this in my chart.
And so he's saying oh, I agree,this is electrical trauma.
And blah, blah, blah, and I'mlike hot diggity dog, I'll take
these notes today.
And he, and then something.
(28:59):
And I should have listened tomy instincts, but I did it once
again.
And so he said let me doctorthese up and put the final on
them and then you can come getthem tomorrow or the next day so
I sleep.
But anyway, he had some time tothink and talk to his partners
and they had that TMS thinggoing on.
And so I tell you I could notget my records from that man for
(29:22):
almost a month.
I had to threaten him to go tothe Office of Civil Rights, like
I did with Kaiser, to get myrecords because he wouldn't turn
them over.
And so what I finally did is Itold him I recorded our
conversation and those recordsbetter not deviate from that
conversation you and I hadaround my damages.
Yeah.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (29:41):
Because I was.
I was going to say.
His next thing out of his mouthwas probably like um, so here's
a membership that you can buyto the team.
Dr Teralyn Sell (29:51):
So I got the record.
It didn't go in at length likehe did in the conversation, but
it showed my damages and I gotthem tied in my records.
Finally and that's very hard todo but these brain injury
programs that patients needreferrals to are tied to these
hospitals often that doelectroshock and so once they
(30:12):
start addressing their damagesthen it puts the hospitals and
the psychiatrists at risk forlawsuit and so that's why these
patients often, I feel, can'tget referrals and plus it will
shut down a very lucrativepractice and all these other
things like TMS might come underquestion.
And all these other things likeTMS might come under question
(30:33):
and these electrical nerve vagusstimulators and other products
that people have a lot of moneyinvested into and research might
be called into question if thedamages.
About electroshock in my damagesis that I have an abnormal MRI
that is progressively worsening,with lesions in my brain that
(30:57):
are atypical for MS and areatypical for your normal white
patches that I think areprobably like Tau from the NFL
damages.
I also have an abnormal EEG.
He called it normal but therewas a feature in it.
He said that was so abnormalhe's never seen it before.
(31:18):
So I call it abnormal.
Um I have abnormal, yeah, and Ihave, uh, abnormal,
progressively abnormalneurocognitive reports and I
carry a label, a majorneurocognitive disorder now
based on my brain injuries.
Um but um.
And another point is is that Iused to have a photographic
memory and now I have aphantasia, meaning I cannot visualize in
(31:42):
my mind at all, I cannot use myimagination at all.
So to try to manifest, to tryto manifest, to try to visual
imagery for like meditation islost to me.
And another feature ofaphantasia is that I don't dream
, or I rarely dream, becausethat's a part of aphantasia as
(32:06):
well, and so when I go to bed atnight, I go to bed to blackness
and I wake up and it's likenothing happened, and so I feel
unresolved a lot of timesbecause we solve so much in our
dreams and so that was takenfrom me.
And another thing that patientsexperience, given the many brain
injuries, is that when you losemuch of your autobiographical
(32:29):
history and you lose thetreasured memories and you lose
the learned life experience, youcannot draw on those learned
life experiences, so you fail tograsp over time lessons that
you should have learned orexperiences that you should have
garnered better given this, andso there's deficits and brain
(32:55):
injury.
You walk around and you don'tappear harmed, but you navigate
daily the stress of it.
And one thing about electricaltrauma is that electrical trauma
also causes PTSD, anxiety anddepression, and so they keep a
constant patient pool goingthrough their program.
Given all of this, Forever.
Jennifer Schmitz (33:17):
You're really the forever consumer you need
more.
Dr Teralyn Sell (33:20):
You need more.
It's not working.
You need more.
You started as a consumer.
Jennifer Schmitz (33:23):
We put interventions on you, such as
psychiatric medications and ECT,but that then keeps you forever
, because now we just took andwe have now created the injuries
, but now we've also createdanxiety, depression, more trauma
.
Right, you're like the dog thatwill always chase its tail.
It's the forever and you willforever be in it, and so money,
(33:47):
money, money, money forever.
Dr Teralyn Sell (33:51):
Until you can escape it.
And see, you know I had a neardeath experience and that's what
really saved my life.
Was that near death experience?
You know it got.
I was, I cleared all thosedrugs I was.
So I'm so grateful.
Even to this day, that neardeath experience impacts me
daily and it saved me.
(34:12):
It rescued me from this verycorrupt system that I found
myself in and it got me out ofit.
It brought me a lawsuit, itgave me enough money to get out
of an abusive marriage and startover again and I'm very
grateful for everything that'shappened to me.
I'm even grateful for theelectric shock because of what
(34:33):
it's given me in my activism andmy purpose, and I'm grateful
for even all the hard timesbecause of the knowledge and the
wisdom that it's given me.
And I think in our trials thatit raises us sometimes where we
may not have raised ourselves,and I heard you say that
(34:56):
sometimes God puts you in prisonto set you free and people out
there that are losing hope.
Don't lose hope, Because yourstory, your redeeming story, is
what God can do for you and Godsaved my life and spared my life
.
Daily.
I feel redeeming story is whatGod can do for you and God saved
my life and spared my lifedaily.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (35:15):
I feel I know that, so I don't know how
we've gotten to this place wheretraumatizing our brains is the
solution to mental health, LikeI, really, I'm having such a
difficult time reconciling this,whether it's psychiatric
medications, ECT, TMS have youseen the ones where they're
(35:39):
shooting some type of I, sometype of I think anesthetic into?
Your nerve or something likethat, and I'm thinking that's
going to come back and haunt you, like there's gotta be.
I don't know how we got to thisplace.
Jennifer Schmitz (35:56):
It literally, when you talk about it this way
and Deborah listening to you andjust what you just said, terry,
it takes me back to uh, I gottagive a shout out to Robert
Whitaker here and his Mad inAmerica publication and his book
in the first, like you know.
Third of that book is all aboutthe history of this iatrogenic
care and it's interesting tohear people talking about this.
(36:17):
And we're going to electrocutethe brain.
Okay, we're talking about ECT.
We're talking about TMS.
We're going to injectsubstances into somebody's
nerves or into their main veinsin their body, like this is just
all the crazy ass shit that wasdone in the late 1800s, early
1900s, early 1920s, like the way.
(36:39):
Like what, what, what are we?
We're?
I don't, I don't, I don't knowwhat we're doing.
Dr Teralyn Sell (36:45):
I don't know, I can't even.
Jennifer Schmitz (36:50):
It's getting me so, like just listening to
what you've been through,deborah, I don't know what the
fuck we're doing.
Like when, when did it becomeOK?
I'm totally taking what youwere trying to say, terry.
I'm like fucking going on ahigh horse here.
I'm sorry, but when did thesolution become to harm the most
important organ of the body?
Dr Teralyn Sell (37:05):
Right.
Well, I think it's power, and Ithink it's power and control,
and I think I think women aremost at risk for this, this type
of abuse that can occur.
If you're a strong woman, youknow, if you're got a big mouth
on you and you're opinionated,you know.
I had all these DSM codes and,and my feeling now is that I was
(37:26):
neurodivergent, that I'mautistic on the spectrum and
ADHD, and my communication isvery direct when I'm not clouded
with a bunch of drugs and and Ican push people wrong and
that's not my intention at alland and, and, and and.
I think that.
Think that if you have aproblem with a psychiatrist and
(37:47):
you get caught in this system,you'll pay.
You know, and you'll pay dearly.
Jennifer Schmitz (37:53):
You know, Dr Yosef was on our show and he
coined this term.
And now, for the life of me, Ican't remember what it was
called.
Do you remember Terry?
Deborah Schwartzkopff (38:01):
I don't remember, but I do have to bring
this.
I want to bring this up becauseI just was curious.
How many men versus women doECT?
Oh, approximately two-thirds ofthe patients receiving ECT are
women.
The remaining third are men.
Now, this is the interestingpart to me, because this is the
gas-eating part.
This gender disparity in ECTuse is likely related to the
(38:25):
higher prevalence of depressionin women, and I'm like that is
the biggest gaslightingstatement of the planet, because
women have historically beenlooked at as the psychiatric
patient or the depressed patient, or the anxious patient, and so
we are the cash cow ofpsychiatry, really, because we
(38:48):
and women and women need to getreally angry that this is
happening.
Dr Teralyn Sell (38:52):
I mean, you can lose your career from this, you
can become financiallydependent on an abusive
situation, you're easier togaslight, you're easier to
coerce and control and you can'tprotect your children if you're
highly impaired by brain injuryand all these drugs.
And so women really need totake a rise up against this
(39:14):
practice and see it for what itis social media platforms and
have conversations.
These psychiatrists, I think,would become very anxious and
scared that their game ofinflicting these brain injuries
and misrepresenting this forwhat it truly is would maybe
reconsider these hospitals.
(39:36):
And that's what it would takeis just coming forward and
saying look, let's have aconversation.
You know, brain injury programsrecognize mechanism of injury,
like ER trauma medicine does,and this is a brain injury, and
the courts even said this is abrain injury.
So you better be calling itwhat it is and addressing that.
Jennifer Schmitz (39:54):
And none of those medical model things are
followed.
I think it's very interestingwhat you said, Debra, before
about if you had somebody thatwould come in and had a brain
injury right, there would be asuccession of tests and
assessments that would be doneon that individual.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (40:11):
Not just that, but there'd be PT, OT,
there'd be all types oftherapies offered.
Jennifer Schmitz (40:17):
So it's not as though when you got done with
this, an MRI was done and a youknow, an MRI was done and a CT
scan of your brain was done andblood tests were done.
We're going to look at all ofyour levels.
Then you're going to bereferred to PT so that you can
work through I don't know, notaccidentally showing up in
somebody's bathroom or goingthrough a window in their house
right.
Like none of that.
That.
None of that is part of thispicture, which is very
(40:40):
fascinating.
Dr Teralyn Sell (40:44):
Yeah and you can't.
You can't get the help and and,because if you address the
brain injury, then you'recalling out what this really is
if you're getting services forit.
So when I was trying to getneurocognitive rehab or even to
get a neurologist to evaluatethis, I tell you, knowing what I
know from ER medicine or traumamedicine, I was literally
thrown out of.
I went from this doctor thatidentified me with the brain
injury and didn't want to putall my damages down.
(41:05):
I went to see aneuro-ophthalmologist.
This neuro-ophthalmologist,when I asked him to put my
damages in my records, tied toECT, like this other doctor did,
he would not do it.
He started calling memanipulative and all these other
things, and he had a medicalstudent in the room.
I feel so bad for this medicalstudent, all these other things
and I.
He had a medical student in theroom.
(41:26):
I feel so bad for this medicalstudent.
But I called this guy out.
I said you're just protectinghis practice and I let him have
it.
He literally kicked me out ofhis office.
Jennifer Schmitz (41:32):
I told that medical.
I told that medical.
Don't you forget that.
Dr Teralyn Sell (41:38):
I was so ticked off.
But so, yeah, you can, you canlet them do that.
So, uh, where was my point at?
But you, you get, you've got toget the help.
Um, oh, the neurocognitive umproblem.
You gotta, you gotta, get theneurocognitive rehab done and
and don't let them gaslight.
You, you know, bring theinformation with you.
(41:59):
You know that this isrecognized you to cause brain
injury, and they know it.
Jennifer Schmitz (42:09):
So and the other issue?
The other issue is that NAMI,you know, everybody knows.
Dr Teralyn Sell (42:13):
NAMI, bring it.
Bring it, debra.
We want to hear it.
Nami supports this.
You know I go to NAMI, walk andpass out leaflets.
They don't want to hear aboutit, you know.
Oh, brain injuries.
We're happy with that.
We don't care what's going onwith people in our organization
and I sent them all snail mailletters because my email gets
interrupted and so they all gotletters.
They won't pass on informationthat I want to help their
(42:33):
members do these doctors.
They won't share this.
And if I was in NAMI and I hadan opportunity to see the
benefits that I have now forlife and the leadership didn't
let me I would be ticked and soNAMI supports this.
And but we all know NAMIsupported 75% by big pharma.
(42:54):
And if you go in there tryingto disparage what psychiatry
says, what big pharma says,you're an outcast and they won't
listen to you for the most part.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (43:05):
Yeah, no, we're not.
Jennifer Schmitz (43:09):
Oh wait, she, she froze on us.
I think what she was going tosay is we are not fans of NAMI,
and actually we have called acouple of times on the show, and
because of this, they supportthe very things that actually
cause significant harm to people, and you're not wrong.
Now NAMI claims that they arenot taking any types of
(43:31):
kickbacks from Big Pharma, butfor a very long time, and a good
chunk of NAMI's foundation,they were.
So we are not a big fan.
So, terry, I just tried tofinish your sentence because you
paused there.
So I think I got it.
I think I got you.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (43:57):
I think you did it.
I think I got you because Iused to work for a traumatic
brain injury rehab center many,many, many years ago and it was
very cutting edge and it was forpeople who had, like they would
get into bicycle accidents andthey literally had to learn to
feed themselves.
They literally had to learn todo these things all over again.
Jennifer Schmitz (44:24):
And it might need to be there you're cutting
it out.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (44:28):
You're cutting it out, it's okay, but
anyways, they had to waitthemselves yeah, they, but they
were offered every single, nomatter the degree of the tbi.
They're offered every singleintervention that a person could
possibly have.
And now you are literally goingin.
If, if the doctor would say,listen, you're going in, you're
going to come out with atraumatic brain injury, if that
(44:48):
were part of the informedconsent, would you do it?
You know, would you.
And you're going to do it ninetimes.
You're going to have a TB.
We're going to give you nineTBIs in a row, sometimes for you
twice a day.
A TBI two times a day.
I'm like are you kidding?
No, I don't want to do thatAbsolutely not.
Dr Teralyn Sell (45:11):
The list would be too long for all the damages
that electrical trauma causes tobe in consent to be adequate.
And when you're addressinggetting help and I lost my train
of thought when I was talkingearlier, I can go off sometimes.
And when you're addressinggetting help and I lost my train
of thought when I was talkingearlier, I can go off sometimes,
but when I was trying to gethelp and I couldn't get the
(45:34):
appropriate help, what I finallythought to do was I was really
compromised Because when I cameback from getting off all these
drugs, you know, and I had tosue my psychiatrist and I
started ECT Justice at that timetoo, I didn't even have a Gmail
account.
I didn't even know what YouTubeaccount.
I didn't even know what YouTubewas.
I really did not.
I was just so out of it.
I recall my son having to setup a Gmail account.
That's how compromised I was.
And so when I came back and Iknew what a hard time I was
(45:58):
having, I decided to volunteerin an elementary school
classroom because I knew workingwith third graders.
I should have started withfirst graders.
I'd learn that later, butthey're screwing poor kids up
with their math.
But I would volunteer in theclassrooms with his kids because
they helped me with art.
You know, because I've gonedeficits with my spatial
(46:18):
perception and stuff.
Helped with art, with reading,word identifying issues.
Um, math was a problem for meand so working with these kids
was helping me, so that's how Igot my early neurocognitive
workouts in um, but rehab, yeah,yeah yeah, but uh, yes, you
(46:39):
need the resources to have someassistance.
And when these poor patients,you know, are going to their
family members saying, look, youknow, something's really wrong
with me and the family's oh,your doctor says it's your
depression, you need more shockor maybe you need to dial your
medications, you know.
And these people are going,what's going on?
They get, they get reallyscared and I mean I've had such
(46:59):
depersonalization orderealization, whatever you want
to call it.
I've had such depersonalizationor derealization, whatever you
want to call it, where I was inPortland and I didn't know I was
in the city.
It's like the city melted awayfrom me.
I was just like in space and itwas terrifying and I knew my
brain was causing me a problem.
So I was trying not to panic,but it was like a glitch.
And I'm not the only one thathas this.
(47:21):
And one other thing I need toaddress and I don't want to talk
too much, but these are suchimportant topics is that the
betrayal that patients feelaround when they finally start
to step out of things or becomerealized what's transpired and
how their lives have beendevastated by this down the road
, if not now down the road, whattheir psychiatrist did to them,
(47:46):
what they promoted for them anda lot of times family will
support the psychiatrist inwanting them to have ECT and the
many conversations that I'vehad with people that report.
They can't even talk to theirfamily members about their
distress because they don't wanttheir family members feeling
responsible or feeling that theyhurt their loved one by
(48:06):
suggesting this if they told thefull truth of what goes on for
them on a daily basis.
And that is their concern.
Their concern is to protecttheir psychiatrist, often to
protect their loved ones, andmeanwhile you know they're
contemplating suicide becausethey can't access the services
and family members are notwarned and family NAMI groups
(48:27):
need to know that their lovedone is really struggling with
these brain injury outcomes andanything else in the body that
may come up now or down the road.
Jennifer Schmitz (48:35):
Yeah, yeah, deborah, tell us about ECT
justice.
Tell us a little bit, oh God.
Dr Teralyn Sell (48:41):
Well, that's, that's kind of a miracle for me
because, like I said, I justcame back from detoxing all
these drugs.
I can't tell you much about it.
It's kind of what weirdlyhappened.
I had no computer skills and sowhen I got back, I knew that
number one.
I wanted to see thepsychiatrist.
Number two I think I started in2011, 2012.
I can't even tell you the datenow, but I think I started 2011,
(49:03):
2012.
I can't even tell you the datenow, but I knew I wanted an
advocacy site because I knewthat this was brain injury.
When I cleared, my trauma nursekicked back in and I realized
what the F you know, you knoware they doing to patients, you
know, and there's going to becommonalities.
My story is not the only storyout there and so I wanted to
find damages because I knewright from the get-go.
Jennifer Schmitz (49:25):
I'm good at bringing lawsuits.
Dr Teralyn Sell (49:26):
I'm good at finding attorneys.
Sooner or later I find them.
I'm thinking about a businessfor that, actually.
But anyway, I decided I wantedto sue my psychiatrist and I
wanted to eventually suesomething around electroshock
somebody around electroshock maplawsuit and so that's when I
started ECT Justice.
(49:46):
Somehow I found a person thatknew how to do websites.
I don't know how I found them,can't tell you and I have to
attribute source in my life thatmy inspiration comes from
source often, that when I speak,often I'm inspired to speak and
I'm not any more special thananybody else.
(50:06):
Everybody has access to source.
But I don't take full humanlycredit for ECT justice or for my
advocacy work, because there'sadvocates and activists around
the world working on this issuethat see how harmful, either
through lived experience, orthey have a loved ones that has
had this, and they how harmfuleither through lived experience
or they have a loved ones thathas had this, and they want to
see this stop and they want tosee a better way for mental
(50:29):
health care other than druggingthem and and electrocuting
patients, and find anotherhumanity again.
So that that's that's, that'sall source.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (50:41):
I'm telling you if I ever decide to
build an advocacy platformbigger than what we're doing.
You're, you're in deborah,you're in.
Jennifer Schmitz (50:48):
Thank you very much.
Thank you, you're hired.
Your job is going to get uskicked off of reddit at least
150 times hired.
Dr Teralyn Sell (50:58):
I'm talking 12 hours.
Yes, oh, my god, I going to say, yeah, get us kicked off, it's
been less than 60 seconds.
Jennifer Schmitz (51:05):
Oh, it's been really.
Uh, it's been an honor to haveyou come on this show.
Dr Teralyn Sell (51:13):
Thank you so much, I appreciate you.
Jennifer Schmitz (51:16):
Your, your advocacy is.
It's really cool.
We've had, we've had a lot ofpeople on this show that are
here to tell, yes, their story,but their story is so big, it's
so much bigger than them, andthey want to come on and talk
about how they are trying tochange the world.
Change the game, change thenarrative, call the bullshit out
(51:36):
.
That's happening and that'swhat you're doing.
Dr Teralyn Sell (51:42):
We're all doing it.
We're all doing it together.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (51:44):
Yes, yeah , I know when I happened to run
across your TikTok, I was likeshe needs to be on Immediately.
Dr Teralyn Sell (51:53):
I have to pay to promote those darn TikToks.
It's costing me a fortune.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's allthe way I get views.
Yeah, they shut it down.
They don't like it.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (52:05):
Oh my gosh.
Jennifer Schmitz (52:06):
See, that's not right?
Deborah Schwartzkopff (52:08):
No, I know, thank you.
Jennifer Schmitz (52:10):
Debra for being here.
Deborah Schwartzkopff (52:11):
Thank you .
Jennifer Schmitz (52:12):
We are in your corner supporting you and if
everybody, if you stay to theend.
Here we are the Guess the Truthpodcast and you can find us
anywhere that you listen topodcasts.
We and you can find us anywherethat you listen to podcasts.
We are on all the socials aswell.
So make sure you hit us up andmake sure that you hit Debra up,
even though she's probably onher fourth or fifth account at
that point, and that's fine.
So if it looks like there's nota lot of content, it's because
(52:37):
she had to fucking start overand that grand find.
But thank you guys, please,please, make sure that if you
have stories you want to tell,send us your gaslit truth
stories at the gaslit truthpodcast at gmailcom, and you'll
have to check out ECT justiceand if you ever do, knowing that
the founder of that and thatwas that was Debra, and out of
all of the pain comes this bigsilver lining of changing the
(52:58):
world.
So thanks, debra.
Dr Teralyn Sell (53:00):
Thank you very much.
See ya Bye.
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