Talking about trauma doesn't always lead to healing – in fact, it can sometimes make things worse. This groundbreaking episode features EMDR expert Jeremy Fox, who reveals why traditional talk therapy approaches sometimes fall short when treating trauma and introduces a powerful alternative.
Jeremy explains how Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) works through a fundamentally different mechanism than conventional therapy. Rather than having clients deeply immerse themselves in traumatic narratives, EMDR creates what Jeremy calls a "dual attention process" – keeping one foot in the traumatic past and one in the present. Through guided eye movements or other bilateral stimulation, EMDR "taxes working memory," making it difficult for the brain to maintain the same intense emotional connection to traumatic memories.
We explore the fascinating science behind this approach, including Jeremy's published research on the Zeigarnik Effect – the psychological principle that explains why interrupted or incomplete experiences (like traumatic memories) remain more vivid in our minds than completed ones. Jeremy illuminates how EMDR leverages this effect to help the brain finally process what's been "stuck."
Perhaps most surprising is Jeremy's revelation that clients don't necessarily need to verbally share all the details of their trauma for EMDR to be effective. This makes the therapy particularly valuable for those who find it impossible to talk about their experiences or who have tried talk therapy without success.
The conversation also addresses common misconceptions about EMDR, the importance of the therapeutic relationship, and how medication might impact trauma processing. Whether you're a therapy professional or someone seeking healing from past wounds, this episode offers valuable insights into how our brains process trauma and the innovative approaches that can lead to transformation.
Ready to explore new pathways to healing? Listen now and discover why sometimes the most effective therapy isn't about talking more – it's about processing differently.
Are you tired of being gaslit and want to DEEP THROAT some more truth? We want to hear from you! Message us your gaslit stories at thegaslittruthpodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
we're going to start off with some fan mail today.
I'm so excited about this one.
Yeah, because people actuallysend us fan mail.
That's the most exciting part,awesome, yes, all right, so here
it is.
Just listen to the podcast overSSRI withdrawal.
Oh my God, so glad people aretalking about this now.
I haven't been able to come offProzac and people have thought
(00:23):
I was being dramatic.
Please keep talking about itand more specifically, what it
feels like.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yes, yes, yeah, we can do that.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
So happy to get that.
Of course we're going to dothat.
So more to come on that.
But first, did you know thatonly talking about your trauma
can make things worse what I did?
Know that only talking aboutyour trauma can make things
worse what I did?
Know that, actually.
But we are your whistleblowingshrinks, Dr Tara Lynn and
therapist Jen.
This is the Gaslit TruthPodcast, and we have a special
(00:55):
guest today, Jeremy Fox, andhe's going to tell us all about
it.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
We do.
We have Jeremy.
Let's bring Jeremy in.
For those of you who maybedon't know Jeremy, he's a
licensed professional counselorand an EMDR.
I improved EMDR consultants.
He specializes in treatingtrauma and he has practiced EMDR
.
For those of you who maybedon't know what that is, okay,
that's eye movement,desensitization and reprocessing
.
He's been doing this since 2014.
(01:23):
He facilitates severalpresentations regarding its use
and he addresses thedissociation, the flashbacks,
the other symptoms ofpost-traumatic stress.
He initially developed aninterest in EMDR while working
in the Community Mental HealthCenter and he was made aware of
the therapy modalities,effectiveness in treating these
symptoms of trauma.
He received his EMDRI approvedconsultant designation in 2019.
(01:49):
And the coolest part, hisarticle Recovery Interrupted the
Zagarnik Effect in EMDR Therapy.
An Adaptive InformationProcessing Model was published,
which is super cool.
And the September 2020 issueJournal of EMDR Practice and
Research, which is like, so coolto be published.
Very jealous, keep moving on.
This is about Jeremy, not me.
(02:09):
So he facilitates EMDR basictraining courses.
He teaches the other therapistshow to reduce trauma, which is
super cool.
Through the modality of EMDR,he brings a lot of awareness to
this idea of the complex PTSDthat happens, especially with
the violent survivors rightSupports the vets, the first
responders, within this, andalso brings in healthy gender
(02:31):
dynamics and relations into play, which is super awesome.
And so he's got videos,podcasts, essays he's doing all
of these things.
The other thing is howtechnology reshapes our way that
we are approaching healing asclinicians, which that is a
thing, such a thing.
So everybody I want to welcometo the show, jeremy Fox.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Hey, it's so great to be here we are like Jeremy,
loving your shirt.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yes, oh, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
You missed the floral note memo, Terry, I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I've got pattern, I've got a pattern today which
normally I don't.
All right, okay, thanks, thanks.
I do have to say Jeremy was onmy original podcast that I did
some years ago and you are thefirst guest that has bridged the
gap to both.
Congratulations, jeremy.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
It's truly an honor.
I mean that I was like Jeremyreached out.
He's like an honor, I mean thatthat's amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I was like Jeremy reached out.
He's like are you taking guestson your podcast?
I'm like, why do you want to beone?
And he goes, yes.
And I was like, of course, Comeon, absolutely, it's so good.
So, because I, jeremy, is sogood with EMDR, a podcast topic,
so I'm pretty excited aboutthis, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Believe it or not, you're the first, jeremy.
We talk about being EMDRclinicians and here and there
we'll interweave some of it, butwe've never had somebody who is
going to just talk straightEMDR with us and answer all the
things that the whole worldwants to know about this
intervention.
So that's no pressure, that'swhat you're going to do well,
even the term interweave you youscoreboard for 10 yeah, oh yeah
(04:11):
, you're on the board, that'sright for
Speaker 1 (04:12):
sure oh, we're keeping track.
Oh, geez, I'm out, I'm done.
Today is done already, so allright, if you if you haven't
watched our youtube channel, youneed to see what he just did.
It was very emdr cliche it wasso good a finger waving or
wagging or one-to-one.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
You got to get on the board, terry like let's go,
emdr, it's not just fingerwagging you need merch, jeremy.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Do you have merch for that?
Yeah, I will.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
You will now that's for sure that's got to go on a
shirt.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I know.
Please make a shirt or a mugthat says not just finger
wagging yes.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Absolutely All right.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's so funny.
So where do you want to beginon this topic?
What do you think would be agood place to start, Jeremy?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Jeremy man.
Well, you know, I think a goodplace to start would be that
kind of spicy intro, almost ifyou want, of how can talking
make things worse?
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
No, what do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
We gave that idea to you before we started.
We're like is this going tomake sense if?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
we say like wow, yes, let's talk about that.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
So really, you know, in grad school when you're
becoming a talk therapist, Imean talks kind of in the name.
So you know I love takingclasses about group dynamics and
I love narrative therapy Istill do.
I think it's awesome, likeexternalizing problems and but.
But all these different modelsshare this verbal emphasis.
(05:45):
And so after grad school, whenI was in the trenches of working
in community mental health andI got trained in EMDR therapy,
one of the big things you learnin traumatology is when you
instruct a patient to talk abouttheir trauma and they're prone
to dissociate or relive itintensely, they can actually
(06:08):
kind of get immersed in thatnarrative and sometimes it can
do more harm than good.
So that aspect of trauma, thereliving it, can be really
uncomfortable when you don'tpair it with something that
distances a little bit.
And so becoming an EMDRtherapist, learning the model
which it's an interruptedexposure model of you're in it,
(06:31):
you're pulled out, you're in it,you come out.
It's kind of like a waveform.
You know, I'd work with clientsand they said, wow, this is,
this is different.
I'm able to take a littlemomentary break and then go back
in.
And I don't have to fear take alittle momentary break and then
go back in and I don't have tofear that I'm stuck in the
trauma.
So it's very interesting thatsometimes talking you can
actually put someone into itmore and be hurtful in the short
(06:54):
term.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Sometimes just talking about not even trauma,
but negative things over andover and over and over again.
Yeah, can be very harmful topeople.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Well, it's not that PE part of it right, like we're
going to jump right, like Ithink you should talk a little
bit about that because I thinksome of the listeners we have
Jeremy maybe know- a little bit.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
When you say PE, please explain that, jen,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
That's where I was going.
I was going to tell Jerry toexplain the basis of EMDR, and
here I'm using these, like youknow the acronyms.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Don't use acronyms, all right these prolonged
exposure.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Types of therapies.
Right, that's what I'm sayingwhen I say PE.
So, jeremy, can you describejust a little bit in general for
our listeners, because some ofthem may not have too much
awareness of what EMDR is andhow it is not just sitting in a
trauma the entire time andexposing yourself to it, because
this is kind of what you'redescribing when you were just
talking about your laststatement.
So can you just give a littlereader's digest for our
(07:52):
listeners of what 100%?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yes, so the EM and the EMDR refers to eye movement
and it's very interestingbecause now we've added other
bilateral forms like tapping oreven auditory, that can go back
and forth.
But to stick on the name, sowhen the therapist and client
have determined a memory thatthey want to work on, to
(08:15):
desensitize, meaning take theemotional and imagery vividness
out of it, a session looks likethe therapist asking the client
some questions what's the memory, the image, the negative
self-directed thought.
The therapist asking the clientsome questions what's the
memory, the image, the negativeself-directed thought, the
emotions and the body sensationsconnected to that memory?
The client dials it up, likethey're getting locking onto
(08:36):
that memory signal.
And then the therapist says,okay, notice all that.
And then offers the eyemovement or has the client tap
or hold some little hand buzzers.
And so what's happening is adual attention process of a
distraction of eye movement ortapping or whatever, and a
memory that being in the memory.
And so you've got one foot ineach that's probably the best
(08:58):
metaphor a foot in the past andin the present.
So the client is stretchingtheir attention, just like if
your computer has too many tabsopen and it's going a little
slower because you're making itdo a lot.
That's the same impact on thehuman brain.
It's our working memory, it'scalled that slows down when we
add distractions and so you'reteaching your brain okay, you're
(09:23):
in the trauma.
Here's that memory that's soupsetting, that feels like
you're in it, but also you're inthe present, here with me, and
that reteaches the brain.
It gets that memory unstuckfrom that past intrusive state,
dependent mood, dependent form,and into that semantic form,
that form of okay, this happenedand it was terrible, but I'm
(09:43):
not there.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, I could listen to your description all day long
.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I was like I'm going to have to play this back and
then say this to my clients,because he describes it so much
better than I do.
I call it voodoo.
So you're actually-.
Tomato tomato right, right, I'mlike there's this kind of voodoo
and you're going to think avoodoo is happening, right which
we'll have to talk about that,about what EMDR is and is not
right.
I like how you talked aboutworking memory.
You had sent Terry and I someinformation that I thought was
(10:11):
super fascinating before theshow, and in there it talked
about what happens when youstart to actually almost kind of
tax working memory in a way,yeah, and how that's helpful
within this.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yes, so taxing working memory is one of the
leading theoretical mechanismsthat we think is behind EMDR
functioning.
So the fast eye movement isadded during the reprocessing
phase of bringing up the trauma,of bringing up the trauma, and
(10:46):
so that has a lot of supportbehind it.
The eye movement tapping thedistancing mechanism there is
really proprietary to EMDRtherapy.
And listen, I've trained peoplein EMDR therapy who came from
the prolonged exposure school ofthought, where that lives up to
the name your client's sittingexposure school of thought,
where that's like that lives upto the name your client sitting
(11:07):
there thinking of it, you know,dwelling on it.
I had nothing bad to say aboutthat.
It's just research shows thatthe interrupted exposure of EMDR
therapy works well.
So you can have a therapy wheretax the working memory, take a
step back, let the person kindof notice it in the present and
then go back back.
Let the person kind of noticethey're in the present and then
go back in.
So the distracted sort ofinterrupted exposure is also a
(11:31):
viable clinical model and ranksup there with prolonged exposure
.
So you don't have to do it thatway of being prolonged exposed.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
As a matter of fact and I could be wrong about this
you don't even have tonecessarily talk about the
trauma in EMDR.
So let's talk about that alittle bit, because I think that
scares people Like I don't wantto come in and rehash and
re-talk about something I'vealready talked about.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So yeah, wonderful point and I really like to
emphasize that to my clients.
When I'm giving my quoteelevator speech by the EMDR and
that's how I've gotten good atdescribing it is I try to
explain it.
I truly appreciate that.
I mean, if clients don'tunderstand what it is or know
they really can't consent to it.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
There's no informed consent when you don't describe
like yes, here's what's good,what it is, yeah, and here's the
risks of it.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And yeah, like yes here's what it is, yeah, and
here's the risks of it, and yeah.
So the important part fortrauma-informed therapists to
know when they're going to workwith a client is are you going
to dissociate Meaning, are yougoing to leave the room mentally
and blank out when we accessthese upsetting, state-dependent
, aversive memories?
And so I really recommend doinga dissociation questioning with
(12:47):
a client like the dissociativeexperiences scale.
Okay, there's one foradolescents and adults.
I do that with clients beforewe start doing memory work, emdr
.
So one of the things torecognize is we need to just
make sure that the client canstay in the room with us
mentally, is not going to enter,not going to exit that window
(13:07):
of tolerance and be so out ofthat capacity that they're
re-traumatizing themselves thatwe're activating the trauma
again without purging it,without venting that in some way
.
So as long as we know that, astrauma-informed therapists, that
they can stay in the room andreprocess this with us, meaning
store it in that different waythat's not as upsetting, then we
(13:30):
don't have to know everyelement of the traumatic memory.
We need to know they can stayin the room with us and keep one
foot in the present and past aswe go down that train track and
they can just say we can say,what are you noticing?
And they say, okay, more badstuff.
We say, okay, go down thattrain track.
And they can just say we cansay what are you noticing?
And they say, okay, more badstuff.
We say, okay, go with that,because that's the up and down
of EMDR.
Reprocessing is you know?
We offer it, we say take abreath, what are you noticing?
(13:52):
And they tell us and we say,okay, go with all that.
And we let their brain do whatit does, unless they're stuck,
and we can talk about what.
That it's very important forpeople to realize.
You don't have to give andactually as EMDR clinicians we
prefer shorter check-ins becauseyour brain is doing the work.
I tell my clients the brain isfaster than the mouth with
trauma reprocessing.
(14:13):
It's not that I don't want tohear you.
I want you to get your money'sworth, your insurance, money's
worth, whatever and this iswhere it happens in the brain,
versus talking it out, slows itdown.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yes, yes, yeah, and I like that you're just saying
about the idea of giving alittle less information, again,
how this is very different froma prolonged exposure type of a
therapy where not only have Ifound at least where the clients
are, we're bringing in all thedetails, we are listening to all
(14:45):
the details of these traumasand then they're sitting in it
for quite some time.
This is very opposite.
One of the most fascinatingEMDR clients I ever had was one
that didn't speak.
Okay, very, very little.
She wouldn't speak.
It was so difficult for her.
She would write a couple thingsdown for me, but for the most
(15:06):
part we went into processingwith her saying very, very
little.
We were able to target a memory,but I had very little
information on it and as westarted going through the
process a little bit more, shebecame more vocal as time went
on, because it was reallydifficult for her to even talk
about it.
So there were very few wordsthat were actually spoken, which
(15:27):
kind of goes into this idea oflike the model of EMDR, because
I will tell you there are timeswhere and for me now you can
tell us if this makes sense foryou or not, jeremy, but I can't
always go by the book because Idon't have a client who can
verbally say it to me like, yeah, these are the negative
thoughts, right?
So what do you think about thatwhen you have clients who are
(15:51):
not following the evidence-basedmodel and how we are, to kind
of lay some of this out?
We're taught to lay thisintervention out.
Yeah, because I'm finding thatthere's some gray within that.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yeah.
So oh no, I totally get whatyou're putting down.
So I would say that when we askthe client what is the negative
belief about yourself thatrelates to this member, or
however you want to say it,sometimes that can be confusing
to client.
They don't really connect withthat and I become more
(16:24):
explicitly guiding the less thatthey kind of have an answer to
that.
So you know, I say, okay, theself-directed negative I
statement, how about that?
Something that's kind ofcatastrophizing.
You know it's not true, but youfeel it when that trauma memory
comes up.
So, and some people just can'tgive the, I'm blank.
It's just called the negativecognition.
(16:45):
It's a part of the MDR protocol.
So if they can't give that andI'm not going to, I'm not going
to.
You know, stay on that hill andforce that like no, we're not
going forward until you can giveme that NC, that negative
cognition, if they can't,because sometimes that will come
up in the throes of thereprocessing.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
So, yes, it does, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
It's where the practice and the model, it's an
art.
There's an art to it, as Terryhas said in the past, right,
like there is an art to thisthat doesn't fit, always fit the
model of how we've learned andbeen taught to do this right.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I believe that to be very true.
You almost have toindividualize something that we
were taught you know hasparameters for us, so I'm glad
that you said that we weretaught you know, has parameters
for us.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So I'm glad that you that you said that.
Yeah, I've, I've said beforethat EMDR is is very artistic
actually and I like how you saidit's a rhythm, like it's an
artistic rhythm, if you will.
I love that and I apologizebecause my connection is cut
right now.
So if you were just going tokeep rolling with it.
I don't know, jen on your side?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
is it the same way?
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Okay, yeah.
So I was thinking about onething when it comes to EMDR and
this is from the clinicianperspective and it made me think
the difference betweenprolonged exposure, which I'm
not trained in I never wastrained in.
My trauma training was all EMDR, so I didn't get that.
(18:19):
So exposure training're doingare less likely to be
traumatized by the client'sstory if you don't need the
story the way.
Yeah, Do you follow what I'msaying?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, less vicarious trauma, right, we're not getting
nearly as much as we would ifour client was going through PE.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, you get some, but you don't, do you guys
follow what I'm saying like?
I'm like wow, yeah yeah, so froma you know, because I know
burnout and you know trauma fromtherapists and things like that
like is a big deal.
And so it makes me curiousabout myself, like I know that
I've endured trauma from storiesand what I've seen in the
(19:09):
prisons and stuff like you, jen,but it makes me wonder if I've
been less traumatized thansomebody who only does prolonged
exposure therapy or talktherapy, you know, making things
worse and all they're doing istalking about trauma over and
over again with their clients.
So I think maybe do we have anew research article unlocked
here?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Jeremy, you're in charge.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Yeah Well, actually I hate to burst the bubble.
There actually is an article by.
Patricia Torres.
Yeah, that says that EMDRtherapy clinicians are not as
impacted by vicarious trauma.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
So you know we can delve in.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Yeah, it's very interesting.
That's great.
I mean, of course, you couldprobably replicate that right.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
No, thank you.
Nope, that's good.
I'm glad somebody actuallyresearched it.
But you know, it was definitelya curiosity.
As you guys are talking aboutthis, I'm like wow, that makes a
lot of sense to me, since I'venever done any other trauma
treatment besides EMDR, so yeah,that's very interesting.
(20:14):
There's a Jen and I have beentalking.
We've been mulling this ideaaround for a while too.
So do you have any insightabout someone who is using
benzodiazepines while they'reengaged in EMDR?
I know the research is outthere, but there's some
clinicians that are like no, itdoesn't matter, and there's
(20:35):
others that are like it mattersa lot, and research says it kind
of matters a lot.
Do you have any insight intothat that you'd like to share?
Because if you do, I've gotanother question upon that.
What are your thoughts, jeremy?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
So that's a great question.
My insight on that is going tobe a little limited because I
don't typically like I will askclients what medications they're
on.
We'll talk about it.
I've worked with clients whoare on diazepines and I would
(21:18):
say I don't think I've done aton of EMDR with that.
But I know that my perspectiveon it is work with what you have
.
If someone and this I work withan EMDR training company and
they offer like a really coolvideo to all the trainees that's
part of the week one of theweekend's trainings on addiction
and EMDR therapy and the ideathat if someone is not
intoxicated in front of you andyou've got them there with you
and they have clarity of mind,work with that and do the
(21:42):
desensitization work right.
If it's not contraindicated,it's not counterindicated.
So my perspective is you cantry to do the work if it's
indicated and ethical and theperson is able to consent.
And if you have to go back andretarget some stuff when they're
off of the benzodiazepinemedication, you may have to do
that.
So but people don't come inbest case scenario all the time
(22:03):
Right.
Just like Jen was sayingearlier, like we have to adapt
protocols to people, so thatgoes also with the model itself
and when we offer it.
Sometimes we have to meetpeople where they are.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Well, a lot of times we have to meet people where
they are.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah, I said that most of the time, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean because we've been talking a lot
.
Well, I don't know if you knowabout Jen and I a whole lot, but
we talk a lot about SSRI useand SNRI use, things like that,
and we were curious about thattoo and just didn't know.
Or, if you want to join in onthe conversation, about how the
(22:40):
emotional blunting and numbnessof even a typical SSRI might get
in the way of processing EMDR.
Because it doesn't just impactserotonin, it impacts your
emotional center, the limbiccenter of your brain, which is
similar to they're not similarto benzodiazepines, but the part
of the brain that's impacted isvery similar to benzodiazepines
(23:02):
, which is also the limbicsystem, and EMDR impacts the
limbic system too.
So there's like this trifectalook at all of these things.
And so we were just when Jenand I had this conversation, we
were like how effective is itreally if your limbic system is
blunted by whatever medicationis blunting it?
(23:26):
What is the effectiveness ofEMDR?
I don't think we really know.
I don't.
I don't think we have theanswer.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
There isn't a lot of research out on that, because
we've been digging yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
It's just something two and two together, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah, because I'm like I was like wow, all the
, the emotional centers and allthis are all similarly impacted
with all these medications.
And so if you're literallythrowing a wet blanket over your
emotions with medications, isEMDR able to lift that blanket?
You know, are they?
Is it able to penetrate that?
(24:03):
That's my question, that's myconversation, and I don't know
if you have any thoughts, andthey don't have to be research
thoughts, but just any thoughtsthat might come to your head on
that, on that conversation.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
I think that's a great question.
I mean if, if all the emotionis as you, as you expertly put
it blanketed or blunted out,then the client's not able to
bring that up and exposethemselves or desensitize
themselves because they can'tsensitize.
So if someone needs, well, it'slike the spectrum of the window
(24:36):
of tolerance kind of.
It's like if someone's takingmedication and they were so far
up here at the top and hyperaroused and they take medication
and they're still able, there'sstill some arousal there,
emotionally speaking,physiologically speaking, that
you can reprocess, Awesome, Cool.
And then maybe when they'reable to get off the medication,
there's that remainder andyou've worked on some of it
(24:58):
ahead of time.
But they were so outside thatwindow of tolerance they were on
medication, All right.
But if someone else is onmedication and all the emotions
blunted out, you can't access itat all, then you're not going
to be able to desensitize,because an exposure therapy
requires some level of emotionalarousal and vividness.
(25:19):
I mean, that's what it's basedon.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me when we think
about it.
I really do think that this isan area of more study because,
you know, we, we all have peoplethat come in on your, your
typical antidepressants andthings like that and they want
emdr and I, you know, it's amatter of assessing the
emotional bluntness is basicallywhat I'm getting from this,
(25:43):
like how, how blunted out areyou, can you actually feel?
Can you feel emotions?
Can you feel intensity?
Can you feel emotions?
Can you feel intensity?
Can you feel vividness?
Those are really good questionsactually to ask.
Yeah, as part of the screeningprocess.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, so maybe we've just come up with a new screener
, I don't know Well, and that'swhat I, that's what I think
about when I think ofdissociation right and giving
that the DES, the dissociativeexperience of scale that you
were just talking about, jeremy,because I wonder sometimes,
right with not only thatassessment but with any kind of
assessment we give people right,is dissociation a product of
(26:18):
the trauma or is dissociation aproduct of the psychiatric med?
And so are we actually treatingthe accurate what really is root
cause of dissociation?
And so that's where that's theblack hole that my brain goes
down, because I wonder that andI've reached out to some other
EMDR clinicians and asked thatquestion, because I'm trying to
(26:41):
wrap my brain aroundunderstanding that, because I've
had clients that I do EMDR withand that are medicated, whether
they're on an SSRI or an SNRIor even a benzo and I ask, I
will do that scale, and I takeit with a grain of salt, because
part of me is also like I alsoknow how difficult it is for you
to access these emotionalstates and again, that
(27:03):
dissociation you experience andhow you rank on how we answer
this assessment right.
I don't know if it's a productof true trauma or if it's a
product of your inability tofeel.
And so you are quitedissociated, because that's the
story of most of us that are onthese drugs.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
The disconnected.
I think you're talking aboutthe feeling of disconnection of
self and others.
It often happens when peopleare on the long term.
Yeah, it looks a lot likedissociation right?
Speaker 3 (27:30):
It sure does.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Is this a product of my trauma or is this a product
of these meds?
And am I?
Are we treating the right thing?
And so there's lots of likequestions we can't answer, but
it bridges.
I know Jeremy's like oh my God,she talks so fast and says so
much I'm really enjoying.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
I mean, it's tough to know where one begins and the
other ends.
Right, I'm thinking of thequestions in the DES now, and
some of those could apply toboth.
I get that, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And it leads to then the next piece that we have to
talk about, because we're allhere in this research discussion
now, so we want to hear aboutthis accolade that truly is an
accolade of being published inthis journal for the Zygarnik
Effect article.
Tell us about this, jeremy.
What is this?
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Absolutely so.
The Zygarnik Effect is actuallynamed after the founder Bluma
Zygarnik, and she was apsychologist in the 1920s that
was surprised to find out that awaitstaff at a restaurant had a
(28:36):
better memory for theirincomplete orders like
unfulfilled orders to givetables than complete ones.
She went on to look at thisidea that people remember things
that are interrupted or thataren't done yet better than they
(28:57):
do completed actions oractivities.
All of the list?
Yes, right, yes, yeah, she wasa gestalt psychologist in the
whole school of, like kurt lewin, if anybody for psych 101 fans
I say I'm having traumaticmemories.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Can you stop talking about that?
Oh yeah, I will.
Oh my god, I failed psych 101 Ihad to take it twice.
True story.
Don't finger wave at me rightnow.
Anyways, back to you, jeremy, Ilove that so much, um, okay.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
So when I got trained in EMDR therapy, I picked up a
book.
Actually it was more that intro.
You can't see it here I'm notgoing to mess with my camera
because I have a good angle nowbut it's like the psychology
book from DK, that publishingcompany Shout out DK.
They got great books.
I'm not sponsored by them, butand I was coming through it was
like this zygarnic effectsection, and I had been trained
(29:52):
in EMDR therapy recently and mybrain put two and two together.
It's like wait a minute, thisidea that you remember
incomplete actions.
What does that remind us ofTrauma?
Okay, Because trauma is usuallybeing trapped and unsafe at the
same time.
So that's what constitutestrauma If you want to go down
the Peter Levine rabbit holegreat author too.
So, and then I was thinkingabout EMDR therapy.
(30:15):
And so when you are receiving anEMDR reprocessing session, okay
, you're having to move youreyes.
That's an interruption whilethinking of a traumatic memory.
And then there's themetacognitive check-ins.
Shapiro called it like themetacognitive discussion,
(30:38):
cognitive debriefing.
Okay, that happens when thetherapist says okay, take a
breath, what are you noticing?
And so traumatic memories areoften encoded in this
interrupted way that staydependent, like it's something
that you have an urge tocompletion okay, that's a term
in the literature, becausethere's actually quite a bit of
literature out there on thezygarnic effect and trauma, like
trauma produces this urge todistance from the memory and
(31:00):
also to complete it.
Freud used the term repetitioncompulsion.
Right, you want to be done withwhat was interrupted, and so my
hypothesis in this paper isthat EMDR therapy actually
leverages that.
It leverages that interruptedreprocessing element of saying,
okay, think about this.
It's also called ironicprocessing Okay, think of the
(31:21):
memory, and then there'sinterruption, and so it
strengthens the desire to gothrough that traumatic narrative
.
It's like you're trying to holdon to it while being
interrupted and you move throughit and the brain hooks onto
that and wants to go through andcomplete that as you're being
interrupted again.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Huh, that's fascinating.
So that funnels then into thisidea that there are these other
channels that are being accessedthen in the brain to help
complete this memory, to clearthose channels out.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
essentially, Right cause.
Again, with EMDR therapy,you're not being told think
about this, explain every detailright now, go right, like that
can make some people freeze,understandably, but with the
zygarnik effect it's like okay,so think about this traumatic
(32:16):
memory.
And then you're going to moveyour eyes, okay, and so you're.
Then I'm going to ask you, likewhat are you noticing?
And so there's, there's layersof distraction there and it's
almost like there's anotherhypothesis on how EMDR works,
called this is a big one thestochastic resonance hypothesis.
Oh for the love.
I know I'm not writing thatdown.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Stop being so smart, stop it.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
This is what happens when you go dive into literature
on something.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
You can't talk normal anymore.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Yeah right.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
I think he was speaking Greek.
It's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
The noise of distraction of the eye movement,
strengthening the person'sfocus on the memory that they're
being instructed to think of.
So that's a hypothesis of it.
But it's very interesting, youknow, if you put music on to
study, you can kind of think ofit that way too, like there's
some distraction element thereand then you're locking on
(33:11):
stronger to a signal.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Okay, that was a good example, like I can follow that
one.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Thank you, yes Well done.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
That's the one he gives his clients.
Yes, thank you.
Clients, yes, thank you.
I do have a question, because Ithink about all these other
therapies that have kind of beencreated I don't know a better
word off of EMDR, yes, thecousin therapies, if you will,
(33:39):
and I'm just wondering what yourthoughts are.
I'm thinking about, well,there's different therapeutic
interventions with EMDRcomponents, and then there's
like brain spotting, which Ibelieve was an offshoot of EMDR.
All these things.
What are your thoughts on someof this?
Because I'm like, listen, theOG is the OG.
That doesn't mean that itshouldn't change and grow.
(34:02):
It doesn't mean it shouldn'tchange and grow.
Exactly, it doesn't mean itshouldn't change and grow.
But I just, I'm just wonderingabout I don't know what your
ideas or thoughts are on this.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Yeah, I mean I I've heard of some of these and I get
curious at every.
Every time I hear about a newpsychotherapy that has some sort
of bilateral stimulation eyemovement I kind of like to dive
down the rabbit hole as I can.
You know, I think it's there isgood as their ability to summon
(34:35):
a past memory and expose anddesensitize and create present
safety.
So it's like you're tuning inand getting a better or worse
signal depending on how you dothose two things.
It's like the two axes on, likewhen you're graphing something,
you know you've got safety andyou've got the memory.
So I've heard amazing thingsabout brain spotting to the
(34:59):
point where and you probablyrelate to this and other
therapists do too like, oh, I'mgoing to get trained in that,
like the yearly, I think I'mgoing to get trained in this.
And you probably relate to thisand other therapists and do too
like, oh, I'm gonna get trainedin that, like the yearly, I
think I'm gonna get trained inthis.
Uh, you know spurt, and it'slike, oh, maybe not.
Then, oh, I'm gonna get trainedin that, maybe not.
So I've been through that withbrain spotting because I respect
it a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a collective experience
yeah, and then I go.
Wait a minute.
That's going to cost thousandsof dollars, Maybe not.
That's how I go.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
It's like collecting Thanos' rings.
We want to have all thetherapies.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
We do yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
So true, I feel like bowl rings, you know, like Super
Bowl rings across your nose,that would be a great picture
when you get your new photos.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
With all your lettered therapies right across
your fingers.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
DBT ring.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
EMDR ring.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Love hate.
Emdr Brings padding ring CBDring.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Oh my god.
I need to be a reason forjewelry.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
This is yeah, this is a lot of fun.
Well, there's a.
There was a uh sort ofnarrative going around that,
sorry, cbt, I guess siri wastalking.
We'll edit that out, I guess,guess or not, but there was a
trend going around on TikTokthat CBT was gaslighting
(36:28):
yourself, and I thought that wasinteresting because I mean,
well done, cbt is not selfgaslighting everybody, it's
really not.
It's actually the opposite ofwhere you're getting out of
thoughts that are limited andcoming from a place of fear.
So it's interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
No, let's talk about that a little bit more, because
I don't know how deep you wantto get into the CBT world, but
there is a lot of chatter onsocial media about CBT Not so
much about EMDR in a negativeway, but CBT is kind of getting
a bad rap right now.
I think it gets a bad rap andI've talked about this too
(37:05):
because sometimes it looks likeit is too boxed in and too
prescribed.
Yeah, so if you're coming outof graduate school and you've
learned CBT again, this is wherethat artistic science comes in
right.
You can't just give somebody aworksheet and call that CBT or
be so structured, because youlose the humanity, you lose the
(37:29):
person in that, and that'sprobably what they're referring
to, that.
Maybe their experience with CBThas been more like that, like
super structured, not clientfocused, like not meeting them
where they are, and maybe alittle too challenging.
I don't know.
So I don't know exactly whythey're saying it's gaslighting
(37:50):
themselves.
Have you seen that part, jen?
Like CBT is gaslighting you.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, a little bit, and sometimes it's tied to and
actually this is a truth that Ithink I can sit with a little
bit as well is that it's such ablanket therapy, you could just
throw it on everything, and Ithink sometimes it gets a bad
rap because of that, and I do,and I see a lot of that in terms
(38:15):
of the gaslighting part,because it's like, well, you
have this issue, throw CBT on it, you're dealing with this.
It's like the catch-all therapy.
It seems not individualized,which, as Western trained
therapists, we have talked aboutthis even on our show and,
jeremy, sometimes we get alittle controversial with this
because we, I do believe rightthat, um, that that treatment
intervention seems to get thrownat everything and it oftentimes
(38:39):
does.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Um, it really does in literature and even in research
, like, uh, I just going to I'llmake something up like do meds
outperform CBT, you know?
And so even when you readliterature, like when they
mentioned therapy, likesomething outperforming therapy
or therapy outperformingsomething, the therapy they're
referring to is always CBT Okay,95%.
(39:02):
So maybe not always, but a lotof the time it's CBT Okay, 95%.
So maybe not always, but a lotof the time it's CBT.
And maybe that's because CBTdoes offer a prescribed
structure.
I've I've said this to Jenabout EMDR like the protocols
are protocols Primarily.
My opinion, Jeremy, please, ifyou don't agree, please don't
agree.
Um, is is like this because youhave to have a structure for
(39:26):
research to prove something, soyou have to go through the
phases and the structureprimarily for research, for
efficacy.
That doesn't lead into anyartistry of it, because when
you're in session it doesn'talways look so prescribed.
But know, um, but you have tohave something that's prescribed
(39:46):
for research.
So CBT does that prescription,it does the ABC, you know, of
CBT.
So I don't know, I think that'swhere, because it is so
blanketed, it gets thrown on alot of people.
Um, especially if you'reworking in an institution or,
like Jen and I, worked in prison, because you know we talk about
(40:08):
liability and all that shit.
So anyway, I'm just ramblingnow.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
CBT is the thing to go back to some of the
gaslighting and the blanketstatements.
Cbt is something that we learnpretty heavily on in our
education.
Like EMDR was not somethingthat.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I learned much.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, that was extra, that was the add on right Like
the master's degree is done, youget the license done, and then
you're like, okay, what can Istart practicing?
Speaker 1 (40:32):
That was the first bullring.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah, it was the first super bullring right there
, right.
So I think in terms of theeducation that we receive, that
is a more.
This is going to sound.
It's a simple.
Cbt is a pretty damn simplisticintervention.
It's not nearly as complicatedas EMDR and it's taught in our,
(40:54):
in the structure of what welearn as clinicians, as one of
the tools we use, and that isnot something that, like EMDR,
that's a later thing, that's ayou're done and you're curious
and you want to get add-ons andyou want to be able to, like,
take a focus on something, right.
So I do think that it is kindof a blanket thing that gets
used a lot.
But that's just kind of myopinion on it.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Yeah, I mean.
So I think my big thing iswhat's your bedside manner, to
use that old medical term, if aclient doesn't feel that you
care?
I mean, it's that that oldstatement of nobody cares how
much you know till they know howmuch you care.
So CBT has gotten kind of thislampoon view of this caricature
of you know.
(41:37):
Have you tried thinkingdifferently?
It's like oh no, bleep.
No, I haven't, of course I have.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
You don't have to bleep yourself, jeremy.
Well, I don't, of course I have.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
You don't have to bleep yourself, Jeremy, you
don't have to bleep.
Well, I don't know.
You put this stuff on YouTube.
It's like there's certain wordsyou can't say, oh well.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Well then they take us out or whatever.
That's probably not one of them.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
But to be honest, I can see why clients would feel
that that doesn't cover theirexperiences if it's not done in
an empathic way, right.
But I mean I've heard harshstories about EMDR therapy where
clients have said, oh, is itthis therapy where I can't stop
moving my eyes and have to gothrough the trauma with and you
know?
No, actually there's breaks.
And so I've heard peoplereceiving very bad EMDR therapy.
(42:17):
So it is in the hands punintended with EMDR of the
provider to a huge extent.
And I mean with CBT, you reallydon't.
It doesn't.
Clients need to understand thepoint is not to say your
struggles don't matter.
It's how do we think about itin a way that serves you better?
(42:38):
How do we get your brain toserve your life better?
And I think sometimes thatpoint's missing.
But anyway, I didn't mean tointerrupt if you guys were
saying something.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
No, that was great yeah.
And it makes me think about thetherapeutic relationship is
really the basis of a lot ofthings in the beginning, right?
So if you're just going in andstarting CBT and you have no
therapeutic alliance or rapportor any of those things which we
(43:04):
know are like the most importantthing, or if you go in for EMDR
and you're like, hey, sit down,let's start, that's going to
throw everything off.
So maybe some of those peoplethat had those experiences
didn't have that therapeuticalliance at all or the rapport
(43:25):
you know, or very little, orjust weren't feeling it.
And then, if you're not feelingit and they throw an
intervention on you, what areyou going to think?
You know, I am the sum of thisintervention.
I am not a human.
My experience doesn't matter.
So I think for all of these,the therapeutic rapport is the
(43:45):
most important thing.
To start with, I you knowthere's some Facebook groups out
there for EMDR and they'reconsumer groups and there are
some clinicians in them.
I am, I just stalk it.
I don't participate, I juststalk.
But the consumer stories arereally.
Some of them are really greatwith EMDR, some of them are
really not.
Some of them are really greatwith EMDR, some of them are
(44:06):
really not.
Some of them are really likewhat?
But there's, yeah, but there'salso this the theme that I get a
lot is well, I go to thetherapist and we're on session
three and we haven't evenstarted EMDR yet and I I went to
them for EMDR specific, as ifthey're supposed to come in and
(44:26):
sit down and begin.
So I was like, well, you don'twant I mean history, you don't
want rapport, you don't wantlike you're missing so many
things.
But it's interesting to mebecause I think it's been
promoted as such a fast way tocut through your trauma that
they expect consumers expectthat this is going to be quick.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Well, and clients ask for that too, even when we meet
.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Like how long?
Speaker 2 (44:54):
will this take, jen, and they don't like my answer
yeah.
Yeah, I don't know for you,jeremy, how you describe that.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
More precision than quick, like it's more precision,
more precise than it is fast.
It is faster than talking,because talking can make it
worse, as we were talking about,but it's not fast.
Fast.
You're not going to cut throughyour decades of trauma in two
sessions.
Likely your EAP is not going tocut it for you here.
(45:21):
Your EAP session, yes.
So what are your thoughts,jeremy?
Speaker 3 (45:27):
I'm with you on that.
I think I have to.
So I have to describe toclients like this is what the
model looks like we have andeven in today, my summary of it.
Like I was talking about thespecial sauce, the work that
people usually refer to whenthey talk about EMDR therapy,
because that's kind of theproprietary stuff of the eye
(45:47):
movement and holding the traumain mind.
But that's phase four.
So, to be honest, that's noteven like.
There's history taking, there'spreparation, there's where you
get the elements of the protocoltogether and then send the
person into the memory.
All of that takes place before,and so the expectation setting
(46:08):
and this is such a huge topic itcould be its own podcast in the
therapy world of how much ofthe consumer mindset is being
put into a medical,psychological healing paradigm
where they're incongruent right.
So you have to sometimes lookat slower is faster with trauma
(46:29):
work.
There's no way around it.
With some people, especiallythose who have CPTSD, complex
PTSD, developmental trauma, inother words and dissociation,
where you can trigger that likea game of operation you hit the
corner, someone freezes up, it'slike, so for their safety,
there sometimes has to be aslower approach where you have
them think of an element of thetraumatic memory versus the
(46:50):
whole thing and so explaininglike I'm not, you know, holding
you back to make more money formore sessions.
Let's get that out of the way,right, because I can see why
people would think that.
But yeah, because if you keepand this goes back to our
earlier thing talking about itbeing re-traumatizing or
dwelling on it beingre-traumatizing, we have to
(47:11):
gatekeep how much we dose themof the desensitization so that
their brain takes it as usefuland outside the comfort zone, of
course, but not putting themall the way back in the
traumatic memory.
Remember, one foot in each, onein safety, one in trauma.
So that's on us to communicateit and it's on the client to
join us and seeing.
(47:32):
Okay, psychotherapy isdifferent than taking a pill and
it immediately going intoeffect.
Even with medication, you haveto reach steady state and that
takes several doses.
So I think it's an ongoingconversation about how much of
marketing and consumer mindsetcan be projected into the
therapy healing realm.
It's a philosophicalconversation.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah, I like that I like that a lot.
I do too.
Yeah, so what is something thatyou learned that now you've
come to understand is not thetruth in your field or with EMDR
?
Speaker 3 (48:10):
is not the truth in your field or with EMDR.
So if my field, it's thattalking about trauma is always
the answer.
So that's, we talked about that.
I think I've actually gainedmore of an appreciation for CBT
and hearing about like thatwhole controversy of gaslighting
, because, to be honest, I nevergravitated toward it heavily in
my own training.
But now there's trauma focusedCBT as a model and I have not
(48:34):
been trained in that.
I've dabbled in looking at someof the stuff.
I have a lot of respect forthat and sometimes you have to
meet people there, I mean.
So another thing I wasunprepared, had a really.
I went to a good graduateprogram.
I'm not I'm not throwing shadethere, but the idea that therapy
is even it's calledpsychotherapy right, and so now
(48:56):
we hear about somatic therapy,but just the idea that therapy
is limited to the brain, itisn't right.
There's so much now involvingmovement-based therapies.
I mean, the Body Keeps theScore, talks about yoga, tai chi
, qigong.
I graduated grad school beforeI really delved into that stuff
(49:18):
and took the red pill on somaticpsychology and sometimes that's
where people have to go becausethey're so alienated from the
body.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Yes, I like that.
Is there anything else you'dlike for people to know or
understand?
Speaker 3 (49:34):
That's great.
You know, if you have and Imean this is something I really
feel passionate about If youfeel that therapy hasn't worked
for you and your therapisthasn't done a model that helps
or hasn't understood you, pleasebe aware that there are so many
different therapists, just likethere's different personality
(49:57):
types out in the friendshipworld you might get along with
one person and not another andthere's so many different
therapies as well.
Everything isn't going to becognitive based.
Everything isn't going to beemotion based.
Find what works for you, See,what works best for your
diagnosis, if you know it, oryour symptoms, even Because you
know there's too many goodmodels out there that are
(50:19):
neuroscience based.
Now for people to feel likesomething like that, there's no
help for them.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
So I'm going to summarize this Take back your
personal agency.
You have choice and you havechoice in your modality.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
Yes, all right.
All right.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Okay, so I think we're going to wrap up this
episode of the gaslit truth.
So thank you so much, jeremy,for being here and sharing all
of your wisdom.
It was super fun.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Yes, thank you, I love it.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
If you're listening, please make sure you like,
subscribe, comment, share andsend us your gaslit truth at the
gaslit truth podcast atgmailcom.
Don't forget rate us.
Only five stars are acceptable,so if you're going to rate a
star, it better be all five andthat is a wrap.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
That's it, thanks, guys.
we're going to start off with some fan mail today.
I'm so excited about this one.
Yeah, because people actuallysend us fan mail.
That's the most exciting part,awesome, yes, all right, so here
it is.
Just listen to the podcast overSSRI withdrawal.
Oh my God, so glad people aretalking about this now.
I haven't been able to come offProzac and people have thought
(00:23):
I was being dramatic.
Please keep talking about itand more specifically, what it
feels like.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yes, yes, yeah, we can do that.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
So happy to get that.
Of course we're going to dothat.
So more to come on that.
But first, did you know thatonly talking about your trauma
can make things worse what I did?
Know that only talking aboutyour trauma can make things
worse what I did?
Know that, actually.
But we are your whistleblowingshrinks, Dr Tara Lynn and
therapist Jen.
This is the Gaslit TruthPodcast, and we have a special
(00:55):
guest today, Jeremy Fox, andhe's going to tell us all about
it.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
We do.
We have Jeremy.
Let's bring Jeremy in.
For those of you who maybedon't know Jeremy, he's a
licensed professional counselorand an EMDR.
I improved EMDR consultants.
He specializes in treatingtrauma and he has practiced EMDR
.
For those of you who maybedon't know what that is, okay,
that's eye movement,desensitization and reprocessing
.
He's been doing this since 2014.
(01:23):
He facilitates severalpresentations regarding its use
and he addresses thedissociation, the flashbacks,
the other symptoms ofpost-traumatic stress.
He initially developed aninterest in EMDR while working
in the Community Mental HealthCenter and he was made aware of
the therapy modalities,effectiveness in treating these
symptoms of trauma.
He received his EMDRI approvedconsultant designation in 2019.
(01:49):
And the coolest part, hisarticle Recovery Interrupted the
Zagarnik Effect in EMDR Therapy.
An Adaptive InformationProcessing Model was published,
which is super cool.
And the September 2020 issueJournal of EMDR Practice and
Research, which is like, so coolto be published.
Very jealous, keep moving on.
This is about Jeremy, not me.
(02:09):
So he facilitates EMDR basictraining courses.
He teaches the other therapistshow to reduce trauma, which is
super cool.
Through the modality of EMDR,he brings a lot of awareness to
this idea of the complex PTSDthat happens, especially with
the violent survivors rightSupports the vets, the first
responders, within this, andalso brings in healthy gender
(02:31):
dynamics and relations into play, which is super awesome.
And so he's got videos,podcasts, essays he's doing all
of these things.
The other thing is howtechnology reshapes our way that
we are approaching healing asclinicians, which that is a
thing, such a thing.
So everybody I want to welcometo the show, jeremy Fox.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Hey, it's so great to be here we are like Jeremy,
loving your shirt.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yes, oh, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
You missed the floral note memo, Terry, I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I've got pattern, I've got a pattern today which
normally I don't.
All right, okay, thanks, thanks.
I do have to say Jeremy was onmy original podcast that I did
some years ago and you are thefirst guest that has bridged the
gap to both.
Congratulations, jeremy.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
It's truly an honor.
I mean that I was like Jeremyreached out.
He's like an honor, I mean thatthat's amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I was like Jeremy reached out.
He's like are you taking guestson your podcast?
I'm like, why do you want to beone?
And he goes, yes.
And I was like, of course, Comeon, absolutely, it's so good.
So, because I, jeremy, is sogood with EMDR, a podcast topic,
so I'm pretty excited aboutthis, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Believe it or not, you're the first, jeremy.
We talk about being EMDRclinicians and here and there
we'll interweave some of it, butwe've never had somebody who is
going to just talk straightEMDR with us and answer all the
things that the whole worldwants to know about this
intervention.
So that's no pressure, that'swhat you're going to do well,
even the term interweave you youscoreboard for 10 yeah, oh yeah
(04:11):
, you're on the board, that'sright for
Speaker 1 (04:12):
sure oh, we're keeping track.
Oh, geez, I'm out, I'm done.
Today is done already, so allright, if you if you haven't
watched our youtube channel, youneed to see what he just did.
It was very emdr cliche it wasso good a finger waving or
wagging or one-to-one.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
You got to get on the board, terry like let's go,
emdr, it's not just fingerwagging you need merch, jeremy.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Do you have merch for that?
Yeah, I will.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
You will now that's for sure that's got to go on a
shirt.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I know.
Please make a shirt or a mugthat says not just finger
wagging yes.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Absolutely All right.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's so funny.
So where do you want to beginon this topic?
What do you think would be agood place to start, Jeremy?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Jeremy man.
Well, you know, I think a goodplace to start would be that
kind of spicy intro, almost ifyou want, of how can talking
make things worse?
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
No, what do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
We gave that idea to you before we started.
We're like is this going tomake sense if?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
we say like wow, yes, let's talk about that.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
So really, you know, in grad school when you're
becoming a talk therapist, Imean talks kind of in the name.
So you know I love takingclasses about group dynamics and
I love narrative therapy Istill do.
I think it's awesome, likeexternalizing problems and but.
But all these different modelsshare this verbal emphasis.
(05:45):
And so after grad school, whenI was in the trenches of working
in community mental health andI got trained in EMDR therapy,
one of the big things you learnin traumatology is when you
instruct a patient to talk abouttheir trauma and they're prone
to dissociate or relive itintensely, they can actually
(06:08):
kind of get immersed in thatnarrative and sometimes it can
do more harm than good.
So that aspect of trauma, thereliving it, can be really
uncomfortable when you don'tpair it with something that
distances a little bit.
And so becoming an EMDRtherapist, learning the model
which it's an interruptedexposure model of you're in it,
(06:31):
you're pulled out, you're in it,you come out.
It's kind of like a waveform.
You know, I'd work with clientsand they said, wow, this is,
this is different.
I'm able to take a littlemomentary break and then go back
in.
And I don't have to fear take alittle momentary break and then
go back in and I don't have tofear that I'm stuck in the
trauma.
So it's very interesting thatsometimes talking you can
actually put someone into itmore and be hurtful in the short
(06:54):
term.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Sometimes just talking about not even trauma,
but negative things over andover and over and over again.
Yeah, can be very harmful topeople.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Well, it's not that PE part of it right, like we're
going to jump right, like Ithink you should talk a little
bit about that because I thinksome of the listeners we have
Jeremy maybe know- a little bit.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
When you say PE, please explain that, jen,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
That's where I was going.
I was going to tell Jerry toexplain the basis of EMDR, and
here I'm using these, like youknow the acronyms.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Don't use acronyms, all right these prolonged
exposure.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Types of therapies.
Right, that's what I'm sayingwhen I say PE.
So, jeremy, can you describejust a little bit in general for
our listeners, because some ofthem may not have too much
awareness of what EMDR is andhow it is not just sitting in a
trauma the entire time andexposing yourself to it, because
this is kind of what you'redescribing when you were just
talking about your laststatement.
So can you just give a littlereader's digest for our
(07:52):
listeners of what 100%?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yes, so the EM and the EMDR refers to eye movement
and it's very interestingbecause now we've added other
bilateral forms like tapping oreven auditory, that can go back
and forth.
But to stick on the name, sowhen the therapist and client
have determined a memory thatthey want to work on, to
(08:15):
desensitize, meaning take theemotional and imagery vividness
out of it, a session looks likethe therapist asking the client
some questions what's the memory, the image, the negative
self-directed thought.
The therapist asking the clientsome questions what's the
memory, the image, the negativeself-directed thought, the
emotions and the body sensationsconnected to that memory?
The client dials it up, likethey're getting locking onto
(08:36):
that memory signal.
And then the therapist says,okay, notice all that.
And then offers the eyemovement or has the client tap
or hold some little hand buzzers.
And so what's happening is adual attention process of a
distraction of eye movement ortapping or whatever, and a
memory that being in the memory.
And so you've got one foot ineach that's probably the best
(08:58):
metaphor a foot in the past andin the present.
So the client is stretchingtheir attention, just like if
your computer has too many tabsopen and it's going a little
slower because you're making itdo a lot.
That's the same impact on thehuman brain.
It's our working memory, it'scalled that slows down when we
add distractions and so you'reteaching your brain okay, you're
(09:23):
in the trauma.
Here's that memory that's soupsetting, that feels like
you're in it, but also you're inthe present, here with me, and
that reteaches the brain.
It gets that memory unstuckfrom that past intrusive state,
dependent mood, dependent form,and into that semantic form,
that form of okay, this happenedand it was terrible, but I'm
(09:43):
not there.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, I could listen to your description all day long
.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I was like I'm going to have to play this back and
then say this to my clients,because he describes it so much
better than I do.
I call it voodoo.
So you're actually-.
Tomato tomato right, right, I'mlike there's this kind of voodoo
and you're going to think avoodoo is happening, right which
we'll have to talk about that,about what EMDR is and is not
right.
I like how you talked aboutworking memory.
You had sent Terry and I someinformation that I thought was
(10:11):
super fascinating before theshow, and in there it talked
about what happens when youstart to actually almost kind of
tax working memory in a way,yeah, and how that's helpful
within this.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yes, so taxing working memory is one of the
leading theoretical mechanismsthat we think is behind EMDR
functioning.
So the fast eye movement isadded during the reprocessing
phase of bringing up the trauma,of bringing up the trauma, and
(10:46):
so that has a lot of supportbehind it.
The eye movement tapping thedistancing mechanism there is
really proprietary to EMDRtherapy.
And listen, I've trained peoplein EMDR therapy who came from
the prolonged exposure school ofthought, where that lives up to
the name your client's sittingexposure school of thought,
where that's like that lives upto the name your client sitting
(11:07):
there thinking of it, you know,dwelling on it.
I had nothing bad to say aboutthat.
It's just research shows thatthe interrupted exposure of EMDR
therapy works well.
So you can have a therapy wheretax the working memory, take a
step back, let the person kindof notice it in the present and
then go back back.
Let the person kind of noticethey're in the present and then
go back in.
So the distracted sort ofinterrupted exposure is also a
(11:31):
viable clinical model and ranksup there with prolonged exposure
.
So you don't have to do it thatway of being prolonged exposed.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
As a matter of fact and I could be wrong about this
you don't even have tonecessarily talk about the
trauma in EMDR.
So let's talk about that alittle bit, because I think that
scares people Like I don't wantto come in and rehash and
re-talk about something I'vealready talked about.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So yeah, wonderful point and I really like to
emphasize that to my clients.
When I'm giving my quoteelevator speech by the EMDR and
that's how I've gotten good atdescribing it is I try to
explain it.
I truly appreciate that.
I mean, if clients don'tunderstand what it is or know
they really can't consent to it.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
There's no informed consent when you don't describe
like yes, here's what's good,what it is, yeah, and here's the
risks of it.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And yeah, like yes here's what it is, yeah, and
here's the risks of it, and yeah.
So the important part fortrauma-informed therapists to
know when they're going to workwith a client is are you going
to dissociate Meaning, are yougoing to leave the room mentally
and blank out when we accessthese upsetting, state-dependent
, aversive memories?
And so I really recommend doinga dissociation questioning with
(12:47):
a client like the dissociativeexperiences scale.
Okay, there's one foradolescents and adults.
I do that with clients beforewe start doing memory work, emdr
.
So one of the things torecognize is we need to just
make sure that the client canstay in the room with us
mentally, is not going to enter,not going to exit that window
(13:07):
of tolerance and be so out ofthat capacity that they're
re-traumatizing themselves thatwe're activating the trauma
again without purging it,without venting that in some way
.
So as long as we know that, astrauma-informed therapists, that
they can stay in the room andreprocess this with us, meaning
store it in that different waythat's not as upsetting, then we
(13:30):
don't have to know everyelement of the traumatic memory.
We need to know they can stayin the room with us and keep one
foot in the present and past aswe go down that train track and
they can just say we can say,what are you noticing?
And they say, okay, more badstuff.
We say, okay, go down thattrain track.
And they can just say we cansay what are you noticing?
And they say, okay, more badstuff.
We say, okay, go with that,because that's the up and down
of EMDR.
Reprocessing is you know?
We offer it, we say take abreath, what are you noticing?
(13:52):
And they tell us and we say,okay, go with all that.
And we let their brain do whatit does, unless they're stuck,
and we can talk about what.
That it's very important forpeople to realize.
You don't have to give andactually as EMDR clinicians we
prefer shorter check-ins becauseyour brain is doing the work.
I tell my clients the brain isfaster than the mouth with
trauma reprocessing.
(14:13):
It's not that I don't want tohear you.
I want you to get your money'sworth, your insurance, money's
worth, whatever and this iswhere it happens in the brain,
versus talking it out, slows itdown.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yes, yes, yeah, and I like that you're just saying
about the idea of giving alittle less information, again,
how this is very different froma prolonged exposure type of a
therapy where not only have Ifound at least where the clients
are, we're bringing in all thedetails, we are listening to all
(14:45):
the details of these traumasand then they're sitting in it
for quite some time.
This is very opposite.
One of the most fascinatingEMDR clients I ever had was one
that didn't speak.
Okay, very, very little.
She wouldn't speak.
It was so difficult for her.
She would write a couple thingsdown for me, but for the most
(15:06):
part we went into processingwith her saying very, very
little.
We were able to target a memory,but I had very little
information on it and as westarted going through the
process a little bit more, shebecame more vocal as time went
on, because it was reallydifficult for her to even talk
about it.
So there were very few wordsthat were actually spoken, which
(15:27):
kind of goes into this idea oflike the model of EMDR, because
I will tell you there are timeswhere and for me now you can
tell us if this makes sense foryou or not, jeremy, but I can't
always go by the book because Idon't have a client who can
verbally say it to me like, yeah, these are the negative
thoughts, right?
So what do you think about thatwhen you have clients who are
(15:51):
not following the evidence-basedmodel and how we are, to kind
of lay some of this out?
We're taught to lay thisintervention out.
Yeah, because I'm finding thatthere's some gray within that.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yeah.
So oh no, I totally get whatyou're putting down.
So I would say that when we askthe client what is the negative
belief about yourself thatrelates to this member, or
however you want to say it,sometimes that can be confusing
to client.
They don't really connect withthat and I become more
(16:24):
explicitly guiding the less thatthey kind of have an answer to
that.
So you know, I say, okay, theself-directed negative I
statement, how about that?
Something that's kind ofcatastrophizing.
You know it's not true, but youfeel it when that trauma memory
comes up.
So, and some people just can'tgive the, I'm blank.
It's just called the negativecognition.
(16:45):
It's a part of the MDR protocol.
So if they can't give that andI'm not going to, I'm not going
to.
You know, stay on that hill andforce that like no, we're not
going forward until you can giveme that NC, that negative
cognition, if they can't,because sometimes that will come
up in the throes of thereprocessing.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
So, yes, it does, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
It's where the practice and the model, it's an
art.
There's an art to it, as Terryhas said in the past, right,
like there is an art to thisthat doesn't fit, always fit the
model of how we've learned andbeen taught to do this right.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I believe that to be very true.
You almost have toindividualize something that we
were taught you know hasparameters for us, so I'm glad
that you said that we weretaught you know, has parameters
for us.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So I'm glad that you that you said that.
Yeah, I've, I've said beforethat EMDR is is very artistic
actually and I like how you saidit's a rhythm, like it's an
artistic rhythm, if you will.
I love that and I apologizebecause my connection is cut
right now.
So if you were just going tokeep rolling with it.
I don't know, jen on your side?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
is it the same way?
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Okay, yeah.
So I was thinking about onething when it comes to EMDR and
this is from the clinicianperspective and it made me think
the difference betweenprolonged exposure, which I'm
not trained in I never wastrained in.
My trauma training was all EMDR, so I didn't get that.
(18:19):
So exposure training're doingare less likely to be
traumatized by the client'sstory if you don't need the
story the way.
Yeah, Do you follow what I'msaying?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, less vicarious trauma, right, we're not getting
nearly as much as we would ifour client was going through PE.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, you get some, but you don't, do you guys
follow what I'm saying like?
I'm like wow, yeah yeah, so froma you know, because I know
burnout and you know trauma fromtherapists and things like that
like is a big deal.
And so it makes me curiousabout myself, like I know that
I've endured trauma from storiesand what I've seen in the
(19:09):
prisons and stuff like you, jen,but it makes me wonder if I've
been less traumatized thansomebody who only does prolonged
exposure therapy or talktherapy, you know, making things
worse and all they're doing istalking about trauma over and
over again with their clients.
So I think maybe do we have anew research article unlocked
here?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Jeremy, you're in charge.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Yeah Well, actually I hate to burst the bubble.
There actually is an article by.
Patricia Torres.
Yeah, that says that EMDRtherapy clinicians are not as
impacted by vicarious trauma.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
So you know we can delve in.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Yeah, it's very interesting.
That's great.
I mean, of course, you couldprobably replicate that right.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
No, thank you.
Nope, that's good.
I'm glad somebody actuallyresearched it.
But you know, it was definitelya curiosity.
As you guys are talking aboutthis, I'm like wow, that makes a
lot of sense to me, since I'venever done any other trauma
treatment besides EMDR, so yeah,that's very interesting.
(20:14):
There's a Jen and I have beentalking.
We've been mulling this ideaaround for a while too.
So do you have any insightabout someone who is using
benzodiazepines while they'reengaged in EMDR?
I know the research is outthere, but there's some
clinicians that are like no, itdoesn't matter, and there's
(20:35):
others that are like it mattersa lot, and research says it kind
of matters a lot.
Do you have any insight intothat that you'd like to share?
Because if you do, I've gotanother question upon that.
What are your thoughts, jeremy?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
So that's a great question.
My insight on that is going tobe a little limited because I
don't typically like I will askclients what medications they're
on.
We'll talk about it.
I've worked with clients whoare on diazepines and I would
(21:18):
say I don't think I've done aton of EMDR with that.
But I know that my perspectiveon it is work with what you have
.
If someone and this I work withan EMDR training company and
they offer like a really coolvideo to all the trainees that's
part of the week one of theweekend's trainings on addiction
and EMDR therapy and the ideathat if someone is not
intoxicated in front of you andyou've got them there with you
and they have clarity of mind,work with that and do the
(21:42):
desensitization work right.
If it's not contraindicated,it's not counterindicated.
So my perspective is you cantry to do the work if it's
indicated and ethical and theperson is able to consent.
And if you have to go back andretarget some stuff when they're
off of the benzodiazepinemedication, you may have to do
that.
So but people don't come inbest case scenario all the time
(22:03):
Right.
Just like Jen was sayingearlier, like we have to adapt
protocols to people, so thatgoes also with the model itself
and when we offer it.
Sometimes we have to meetpeople where they are.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Well, a lot of times we have to meet people where
they are.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah, I said that most of the time, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean because we've been talking a lot
.
Well, I don't know if you knowabout Jen and I a whole lot, but
we talk a lot about SSRI useand SNRI use, things like that,
and we were curious about thattoo and just didn't know.
Or, if you want to join in onthe conversation, about how the
(22:40):
emotional blunting and numbnessof even a typical SSRI might get
in the way of processing EMDR.
Because it doesn't just impactserotonin, it impacts your
emotional center, the limbiccenter of your brain, which is
similar to they're not similarto benzodiazepines, but the part
of the brain that's impacted isvery similar to benzodiazepines
(23:02):
, which is also the limbicsystem, and EMDR impacts the
limbic system too.
So there's like this trifectalook at all of these things.
And so we were just when Jenand I had this conversation, we
were like how effective is itreally if your limbic system is
blunted by whatever medicationis blunting it?
(23:26):
What is the effectiveness ofEMDR?
I don't think we really know.
I don't.
I don't think we have theanswer.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
There isn't a lot of research out on that, because
we've been digging yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
It's just something two and two together, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah, because I'm like I was like wow, all the
, the emotional centers and allthis are all similarly impacted
with all these medications.
And so if you're literallythrowing a wet blanket over your
emotions with medications, isEMDR able to lift that blanket?
You know, are they?
Is it able to penetrate that?
(24:03):
That's my question, that's myconversation, and I don't know
if you have any thoughts, andthey don't have to be research
thoughts, but just any thoughtsthat might come to your head on
that, on that conversation.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
I think that's a great question.
I mean if, if all the emotionis as you, as you expertly put
it blanketed or blunted out,then the client's not able to
bring that up and exposethemselves or desensitize
themselves because they can'tsensitize.
So if someone needs, well, it'slike the spectrum of the window
(24:36):
of tolerance kind of.
It's like if someone's takingmedication and they were so far
up here at the top and hyperaroused and they take medication
and they're still able, there'sstill some arousal there,
emotionally speaking,physiologically speaking, that
you can reprocess, Awesome, Cool.
And then maybe when they'reable to get off the medication,
there's that remainder andyou've worked on some of it
(24:58):
ahead of time.
But they were so outside thatwindow of tolerance they were on
medication, All right.
But if someone else is onmedication and all the emotions
blunted out, you can't access itat all, then you're not going
to be able to desensitize,because an exposure therapy
requires some level of emotionalarousal and vividness.
(25:19):
I mean, that's what it's basedon.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me when we think
about it.
I really do think that this isan area of more study because,
you know, we, we all have peoplethat come in on your, your
typical antidepressants andthings like that and they want
emdr and I, you know, it's amatter of assessing the
emotional bluntness is basicallywhat I'm getting from this,
(25:43):
like how, how blunted out areyou, can you actually feel?
Can you feel emotions?
Can you feel intensity?
Can you feel emotions?
Can you feel intensity?
Can you feel vividness?
Those are really good questionsactually to ask.
Yeah, as part of the screeningprocess.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, so maybe we've just come up with a new screener
, I don't know Well, and that'swhat I, that's what I think
about when I think ofdissociation right and giving
that the DES, the dissociativeexperience of scale that you
were just talking about, jeremy,because I wonder sometimes,
right with not only thatassessment but with any kind of
assessment we give people right,is dissociation a product of
(26:18):
the trauma or is dissociation aproduct of the psychiatric med?
And so are we actually treatingthe accurate what really is root
cause of dissociation?
And so that's where that's theblack hole that my brain goes
down, because I wonder that andI've reached out to some other
EMDR clinicians and asked thatquestion, because I'm trying to
(26:41):
wrap my brain aroundunderstanding that, because I've
had clients that I do EMDR withand that are medicated, whether
they're on an SSRI or an SNRIor even a benzo and I ask, I
will do that scale, and I takeit with a grain of salt, because
part of me is also like I alsoknow how difficult it is for you
to access these emotionalstates and again, that
(27:03):
dissociation you experience andhow you rank on how we answer
this assessment right.
I don't know if it's a productof true trauma or if it's a
product of your inability tofeel.
And so you are quitedissociated, because that's the
story of most of us that are onthese drugs.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
The disconnected.
I think you're talking aboutthe feeling of disconnection of
self and others.
It often happens when peopleare on the long term.
Yeah, it looks a lot likedissociation right?
Speaker 3 (27:30):
It sure does.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Is this a product of my trauma or is this a product
of these meds?
And am I?
Are we treating the right thing?
And so there's lots of likequestions we can't answer, but
it bridges.
I know Jeremy's like oh my God,she talks so fast and says so
much I'm really enjoying.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
I mean, it's tough to know where one begins and the
other ends.
Right, I'm thinking of thequestions in the DES now, and
some of those could apply toboth.
I get that, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And it leads to then the next piece that we have to
talk about, because we're allhere in this research discussion
now, so we want to hear aboutthis accolade that truly is an
accolade of being published inthis journal for the Zygarnik
Effect article.
Tell us about this, jeremy.
What is this?
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Absolutely so.
The Zygarnik Effect is actuallynamed after the founder Bluma
Zygarnik, and she was apsychologist in the 1920s that
was surprised to find out that awaitstaff at a restaurant had a
(28:36):
better memory for theirincomplete orders like
unfulfilled orders to givetables than complete ones.
She went on to look at thisidea that people remember things
that are interrupted or thataren't done yet better than they
(28:57):
do completed actions oractivities.
All of the list?
Yes, right, yes, yeah, she wasa gestalt psychologist in the
whole school of, like kurt lewin, if anybody for psych 101 fans
I say I'm having traumaticmemories.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Can you stop talking about that?
Oh yeah, I will.
Oh my god, I failed psych 101 Ihad to take it twice.
True story.
Don't finger wave at me rightnow.
Anyways, back to you, jeremy, Ilove that so much, um, okay.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
So when I got trained in EMDR therapy, I picked up a
book.
Actually it was more that intro.
You can't see it here I'm notgoing to mess with my camera
because I have a good angle nowbut it's like the psychology
book from DK, that publishingcompany Shout out DK.
They got great books.
I'm not sponsored by them, butand I was coming through it was
like this zygarnic effectsection, and I had been trained
(29:52):
in EMDR therapy recently and mybrain put two and two together.
It's like wait a minute, thisidea that you remember
incomplete actions.
What does that remind us ofTrauma?
Okay, Because trauma is usuallybeing trapped and unsafe at the
same time.
So that's what constitutestrauma If you want to go down
the Peter Levine rabbit holegreat author too.
So, and then I was thinkingabout EMDR therapy.
(30:15):
And so when you are receiving anEMDR reprocessing session, okay
, you're having to move youreyes.
That's an interruption whilethinking of a traumatic memory.
And then there's themetacognitive check-ins.
Shapiro called it like themetacognitive discussion,
(30:38):
cognitive debriefing.
Okay, that happens when thetherapist says okay, take a
breath, what are you noticing?
And so traumatic memories areoften encoded in this
interrupted way that staydependent, like it's something
that you have an urge tocompletion okay, that's a term
in the literature, becausethere's actually quite a bit of
literature out there on thezygarnic effect and trauma, like
trauma produces this urge todistance from the memory and
(31:00):
also to complete it.
Freud used the term repetitioncompulsion.
Right, you want to be done withwhat was interrupted, and so my
hypothesis in this paper isthat EMDR therapy actually
leverages that.
It leverages that interruptedreprocessing element of saying,
okay, think about this.
It's also called ironicprocessing Okay, think of the
(31:21):
memory, and then there'sinterruption, and so it
strengthens the desire to gothrough that traumatic narrative
.
It's like you're trying to holdon to it while being
interrupted and you move throughit and the brain hooks onto
that and wants to go through andcomplete that as you're being
interrupted again.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Huh, that's fascinating.
So that funnels then into thisidea that there are these other
channels that are being accessedthen in the brain to help
complete this memory, to clearthose channels out.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
essentially, Right cause.
Again, with EMDR therapy,you're not being told think
about this, explain every detailright now, go right, like that
can make some people freeze,understandably, but with the
zygarnik effect it's like okay,so think about this traumatic
(32:16):
memory.
And then you're going to moveyour eyes, okay, and so you're.
Then I'm going to ask you, likewhat are you noticing?
And so there's, there's layersof distraction there and it's
almost like there's anotherhypothesis on how EMDR works,
called this is a big one thestochastic resonance hypothesis.
Oh for the love.
I know I'm not writing thatdown.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Stop being so smart, stop it.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
This is what happens when you go dive into literature
on something.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
You can't talk normal anymore.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Yeah right.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
I think he was speaking Greek.
It's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
The noise of distraction of the eye movement,
strengthening the person'sfocus on the memory that they're
being instructed to think of.
So that's a hypothesis of it.
But it's very interesting, youknow, if you put music on to
study, you can kind of think ofit that way too, like there's
some distraction element thereand then you're locking on
(33:11):
stronger to a signal.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Okay, that was a good example, like I can follow that
one.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Thank you, yes Well done.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
That's the one he gives his clients.
Yes, thank you.
Clients, yes, thank you.
I do have a question, because Ithink about all these other
therapies that have kind of beencreated I don't know a better
word off of EMDR, yes, thecousin therapies, if you will,
(33:39):
and I'm just wondering what yourthoughts are.
I'm thinking about, well,there's different therapeutic
interventions with EMDRcomponents, and then there's
like brain spotting, which Ibelieve was an offshoot of EMDR.
All these things.
What are your thoughts on someof this?
Because I'm like, listen, theOG is the OG.
That doesn't mean that itshouldn't change and grow.
(34:02):
It doesn't mean it shouldn'tchange and grow.
Exactly, it doesn't mean itshouldn't change and grow.
But I just, I'm just wonderingabout I don't know what your
ideas or thoughts are on this.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Yeah, I mean I I've heard of some of these and I get
curious at every.
Every time I hear about a newpsychotherapy that has some sort
of bilateral stimulation eyemovement I kind of like to dive
down the rabbit hole as I can.
You know, I think it's there isgood as their ability to summon
(34:35):
a past memory and expose anddesensitize and create present
safety.
So it's like you're tuning inand getting a better or worse
signal depending on how you dothose two things.
It's like the two axes on, likewhen you're graphing something,
you know you've got safety andyou've got the memory.
So I've heard amazing thingsabout brain spotting to the
(34:59):
point where and you probablyrelate to this and other
therapists do too like, oh, I'mgoing to get trained in that,
like the yearly, I think I'mgoing to get trained in this.
And you probably relate to thisand other therapists and do too
like, oh, I'm gonna get trainedin that, like the yearly, I
think I'm gonna get trained inthis.
Uh, you know spurt, and it'slike, oh, maybe not.
Then, oh, I'm gonna get trainedin that, maybe not.
So I've been through that withbrain spotting because I respect
it a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a collective experience
yeah, and then I go.
Wait a minute.
That's going to cost thousandsof dollars, Maybe not.
That's how I go.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
It's like collecting Thanos' rings.
We want to have all thetherapies.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
We do yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
So true, I feel like bowl rings, you know, like Super
Bowl rings across your nose,that would be a great picture
when you get your new photos.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
With all your lettered therapies right across
your fingers.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
DBT ring.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
EMDR ring.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Love hate.
Emdr Brings padding ring CBDring.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Oh my god.
I need to be a reason forjewelry.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
This is yeah, this is a lot of fun.
Well, there's a.
There was a uh sort ofnarrative going around that,
sorry, cbt, I guess siri wastalking.
We'll edit that out, I guess,guess or not, but there was a
trend going around on TikTokthat CBT was gaslighting
(36:28):
yourself, and I thought that wasinteresting because I mean,
well done, cbt is not selfgaslighting everybody, it's
really not.
It's actually the opposite ofwhere you're getting out of
thoughts that are limited andcoming from a place of fear.
So it's interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
No, let's talk about that a little bit more, because
I don't know how deep you wantto get into the CBT world, but
there is a lot of chatter onsocial media about CBT Not so
much about EMDR in a negativeway, but CBT is kind of getting
a bad rap right now.
I think it gets a bad rap andI've talked about this too
(37:05):
because sometimes it looks likeit is too boxed in and too
prescribed.
Yeah, so if you're coming outof graduate school and you've
learned CBT again, this is wherethat artistic science comes in
right.
You can't just give somebody aworksheet and call that CBT or
be so structured, because youlose the humanity, you lose the
(37:29):
person in that, and that'sprobably what they're referring
to, that.
Maybe their experience with CBThas been more like that, like
super structured, not clientfocused, like not meeting them
where they are, and maybe alittle too challenging.
I don't know.
So I don't know exactly whythey're saying it's gaslighting
(37:50):
themselves.
Have you seen that part, jen?
Like CBT is gaslighting you.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, a little bit, and sometimes it's tied to and
actually this is a truth that Ithink I can sit with a little
bit as well is that it's such ablanket therapy, you could just
throw it on everything, and Ithink sometimes it gets a bad
rap because of that, and I do,and I see a lot of that in terms
(38:15):
of the gaslighting part,because it's like, well, you
have this issue, throw CBT on it, you're dealing with this.
It's like the catch-all therapy.
It seems not individualized,which, as Western trained
therapists, we have talked aboutthis even on our show and,
jeremy, sometimes we get alittle controversial with this
because we, I do believe rightthat, um, that that treatment
intervention seems to get thrownat everything and it oftentimes
(38:39):
does.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Um, it really does in literature and even in research
, like, uh, I just going to I'llmake something up like do meds
outperform CBT, you know?
And so even when you readliterature, like when they
mentioned therapy, likesomething outperforming therapy
or therapy outperformingsomething, the therapy they're
referring to is always CBT Okay,95%.
(39:02):
So maybe not always, but a lotof the time it's CBT Okay, 95%.
So maybe not always, but a lotof the time it's CBT.
And maybe that's because CBTdoes offer a prescribed
structure.
I've I've said this to Jenabout EMDR like the protocols
are protocols Primarily.
My opinion, Jeremy, please, ifyou don't agree, please don't
agree.
Um, is is like this because youhave to have a structure for
(39:26):
research to prove something, soyou have to go through the
phases and the structureprimarily for research, for
efficacy.
That doesn't lead into anyartistry of it, because when
you're in session it doesn'talways look so prescribed.
But know, um, but you have tohave something that's prescribed
(39:46):
for research.
So CBT does that prescription,it does the ABC, you know, of
CBT.
So I don't know, I think that'swhere, because it is so
blanketed, it gets thrown on alot of people.
Um, especially if you'reworking in an institution or,
like Jen and I, worked in prison, because you know we talk about
(40:08):
liability and all that shit.
So anyway, I'm just ramblingnow.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
CBT is the thing to go back to some of the
gaslighting and the blanketstatements.
Cbt is something that we learnpretty heavily on in our
education.
Like EMDR was not somethingthat.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I learned much.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, that was extra, that was the add on right Like
the master's degree is done, youget the license done, and then
you're like, okay, what can Istart practicing?
Speaker 1 (40:32):
That was the first bullring.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah, it was the first super bullring right there
, right.
So I think in terms of theeducation that we receive, that
is a more.
This is going to sound.
It's a simple.
Cbt is a pretty damn simplisticintervention.
It's not nearly as complicatedas EMDR and it's taught in our,
(40:54):
in the structure of what welearn as clinicians, as one of
the tools we use, and that isnot something that, like EMDR,
that's a later thing, that's ayou're done and you're curious
and you want to get add-ons andyou want to be able to, like,
take a focus on something, right.
So I do think that it is kindof a blanket thing that gets
used a lot.
But that's just kind of myopinion on it.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Yeah, I mean.
So I think my big thing iswhat's your bedside manner, to
use that old medical term, if aclient doesn't feel that you
care?
I mean, it's that that oldstatement of nobody cares how
much you know till they know howmuch you care.
So CBT has gotten kind of thislampoon view of this caricature
of you know.
(41:37):
Have you tried thinkingdifferently?
It's like oh no, bleep.
No, I haven't, of course I have.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
You don't have to bleep yourself, jeremy.
Well, I don't, of course I have.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
You don't have to bleep yourself, Jeremy, you
don't have to bleep.
Well, I don't know.
You put this stuff on YouTube.
It's like there's certain wordsyou can't say, oh well.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Well then they take us out or whatever.
That's probably not one of them.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
But to be honest, I can see why clients would feel
that that doesn't cover theirexperiences if it's not done in
an empathic way, right.
But I mean I've heard harshstories about EMDR therapy where
clients have said, oh, is itthis therapy where I can't stop
moving my eyes and have to gothrough the trauma with and you
know?
No, actually there's breaks.
And so I've heard peoplereceiving very bad EMDR therapy.
(42:17):
So it is in the hands punintended with EMDR of the
provider to a huge extent.
And I mean with CBT, you reallydon't.
It doesn't.
Clients need to understand thepoint is not to say your
struggles don't matter.
It's how do we think about itin a way that serves you better?
(42:38):
How do we get your brain toserve your life better?
And I think sometimes thatpoint's missing.
But anyway, I didn't mean tointerrupt if you guys were
saying something.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
No, that was great yeah.
And it makes me think about thetherapeutic relationship is
really the basis of a lot ofthings in the beginning, right?
So if you're just going in andstarting CBT and you have no
therapeutic alliance or rapportor any of those things which we
(43:04):
know are like the most importantthing, or if you go in for EMDR
and you're like, hey, sit down,let's start, that's going to
throw everything off.
So maybe some of those peoplethat had those experiences
didn't have that therapeuticalliance at all or the rapport
(43:25):
you know, or very little, orjust weren't feeling it.
And then, if you're not feelingit and they throw an
intervention on you, what areyou going to think?
You know, I am the sum of thisintervention.
I am not a human.
My experience doesn't matter.
So I think for all of these,the therapeutic rapport is the
(43:45):
most important thing.
To start with, I you knowthere's some Facebook groups out
there for EMDR and they'reconsumer groups and there are
some clinicians in them.
I am, I just stalk it.
I don't participate, I juststalk.
But the consumer stories arereally.
Some of them are really greatwith EMDR, some of them are
really not.
Some of them are really greatwith EMDR, some of them are
(44:06):
really not.
Some of them are really likewhat?
But there's, yeah, but there'salso this the theme that I get a
lot is well, I go to thetherapist and we're on session
three and we haven't evenstarted EMDR yet and I I went to
them for EMDR specific, as ifthey're supposed to come in and
(44:26):
sit down and begin.
So I was like, well, you don'twant I mean history, you don't
want rapport, you don't wantlike you're missing so many
things.
But it's interesting to mebecause I think it's been
promoted as such a fast way tocut through your trauma that
they expect consumers expectthat this is going to be quick.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Well, and clients ask for that too, even when we meet
.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Like how long?
Speaker 2 (44:54):
will this take, jen, and they don't like my answer
yeah.
Yeah, I don't know for you,jeremy, how you describe that.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
More precision than quick, like it's more precision,
more precise than it is fast.
It is faster than talking,because talking can make it
worse, as we were talking about,but it's not fast.
Fast.
You're not going to cut throughyour decades of trauma in two
sessions.
Likely your EAP is not going tocut it for you here.
(45:21):
Your EAP session, yes.
So what are your thoughts,jeremy?
Speaker 3 (45:27):
I'm with you on that.
I think I have to.
So I have to describe toclients like this is what the
model looks like we have andeven in today, my summary of it.
Like I was talking about thespecial sauce, the work that
people usually refer to whenthey talk about EMDR therapy,
because that's kind of theproprietary stuff of the eye
(45:47):
movement and holding the traumain mind.
But that's phase four.
So, to be honest, that's noteven like.
There's history taking, there'spreparation, there's where you
get the elements of the protocoltogether and then send the
person into the memory.
All of that takes place before,and so the expectation setting
(46:08):
and this is such a huge topic itcould be its own podcast in the
therapy world of how much ofthe consumer mindset is being
put into a medical,psychological healing paradigm
where they're incongruent right.
So you have to sometimes lookat slower is faster with trauma
(46:29):
work.
There's no way around it.
With some people, especiallythose who have CPTSD, complex
PTSD, developmental trauma, inother words and dissociation,
where you can trigger that likea game of operation you hit the
corner, someone freezes up, it'slike, so for their safety,
there sometimes has to be aslower approach where you have
them think of an element of thetraumatic memory versus the
(46:50):
whole thing and so explaininglike I'm not, you know, holding
you back to make more money formore sessions.
Let's get that out of the way,right, because I can see why
people would think that.
But yeah, because if you keepand this goes back to our
earlier thing talking about itbeing re-traumatizing or
dwelling on it beingre-traumatizing, we have to
(47:11):
gatekeep how much we dose themof the desensitization so that
their brain takes it as usefuland outside the comfort zone, of
course, but not putting themall the way back in the
traumatic memory.
Remember, one foot in each, onein safety, one in trauma.
So that's on us to communicateit and it's on the client to
join us and seeing.
(47:32):
Okay, psychotherapy isdifferent than taking a pill and
it immediately going intoeffect.
Even with medication, you haveto reach steady state and that
takes several doses.
So I think it's an ongoingconversation about how much of
marketing and consumer mindsetcan be projected into the
therapy healing realm.
It's a philosophicalconversation.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah, I like that I like that a lot.
I do too.
Yeah, so what is something thatyou learned that now you've
come to understand is not thetruth in your field or with EMDR
?
Speaker 3 (48:10):
is not the truth in your field or with EMDR.
So if my field, it's thattalking about trauma is always
the answer.
So that's, we talked about that.
I think I've actually gainedmore of an appreciation for CBT
and hearing about like thatwhole controversy of gaslighting
, because, to be honest, I nevergravitated toward it heavily in
my own training.
But now there's trauma focusedCBT as a model and I have not
(48:34):
been trained in that.
I've dabbled in looking at someof the stuff.
I have a lot of respect forthat and sometimes you have to
meet people there, I mean.
So another thing I wasunprepared, had a really.
I went to a good graduateprogram.
I'm not I'm not throwing shadethere, but the idea that therapy
is even it's calledpsychotherapy right, and so now
(48:56):
we hear about somatic therapy,but just the idea that therapy
is limited to the brain, itisn't right.
There's so much now involvingmovement-based therapies.
I mean, the Body Keeps theScore, talks about yoga, tai chi
, qigong.
I graduated grad school beforeI really delved into that stuff
(49:18):
and took the red pill on somaticpsychology and sometimes that's
where people have to go becausethey're so alienated from the
body.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Yes, I like that.
Is there anything else you'dlike for people to know or
understand?
Speaker 3 (49:34):
That's great.
You know, if you have and Imean this is something I really
feel passionate about If youfeel that therapy hasn't worked
for you and your therapisthasn't done a model that helps
or hasn't understood you, pleasebe aware that there are so many
different therapists, just likethere's different personality
(49:57):
types out in the friendshipworld you might get along with
one person and not another andthere's so many different
therapies as well.
Everything isn't going to becognitive based.
Everything isn't going to beemotion based.
Find what works for you, See,what works best for your
diagnosis, if you know it, oryour symptoms, even Because you
know there's too many goodmodels out there that are
(50:19):
neuroscience based.
Now for people to feel likesomething like that, there's no
help for them.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
So I'm going to summarize this Take back your
personal agency.
You have choice and you havechoice in your modality.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
Yes, all right.
All right.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Okay, so I think we're going to wrap up this
episode of the gaslit truth.
So thank you so much, jeremy,for being here and sharing all
of your wisdom.
It was super fun.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Yes, thank you, I love it.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
If you're listening, please make sure you like,
subscribe, comment, share andsend us your gaslit truth at the
gaslit truth podcast atgmailcom.
Don't forget rate us.
Only five stars are acceptable,so if you're going to rate a
star, it better be all five andthat is a wrap.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
That's it, thanks, guys.
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