What happens when a medical professional becomes the victim of the very medications they once prescribed? Nicole Lamberson, physician assistant and medical director for the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition, takes us through her harrowing journey from stressed PA student to polypharmacy casualty to powerful advocate for medication safety.
Nicole's story begins with work-related anxiety during PA school that led to a prescription for Xanax. What followed was a five-year nightmare of escalating medications – six psychiatric drugs simultaneously, including multiple benzodiazepines, stimulants, and antipsychotics. As her health deteriorated, Nicole found herself unable to function, agoraphobic, and eventually suicidal. When she attempted to discontinue these medications, she encountered a medical system utterly unprepared to help patients safely taper off psychiatric drugs.
The podcast explores the profound gaps in medical education around deprescribing, with Nicole revealing that her professional training included "absolutely zero" instruction on safely discontinuing medications. This knowledge vacuum creates dangerous situations where withdrawal symptoms are misdiagnosed as worsening mental illness or drug-seeking behavior. Even when patients report severe adverse effects, they're often dismissed as "outliers" or told their experiences are "rare."
Through her recovery journey, Nicole became a vital voice in medication safety. She now contributes to deprescribing guidelines, works with the Withdrawal Project, distributes the documentary "Medicating Normal," and coaches individuals through psychiatric medication discontinuation. Her work balances scientific rigor with deep compassion born from lived experience.
This eye-opening conversation challenges listeners to question the narratives around psychiatric medications, advocate for themselves in medical settings, and recognize that healing is possible even after severe medication harm. Whether you're a healthcare professional, someone taking psychiatric medications, or supporting a loved one through withdrawal, Nicole's wisdom offers crucial insights for navigating this complex terrain.
Are you tired of being gaslit and want to DEEP THROAT some more truth? We want to hear from you! Message us your gaslit stories at thegaslittruthpodcast@gmail.com
While you are at it, Follow us on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube @thegaslittruthpodcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
What if you've been gaslit into taking your own
medical advice?
We are your whistleblowingshrinks, Dr Tara Lynn and
therapist Jen, and this is thegaslit truth podcast.
Welcome everybody.
Yes, all right Jen who do wehave?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Bring her in you, slide her in Everybody today we
have.
Nicole Lambertson on the show.
Lambertson, we got her.
Is she in the middle?
I'm going to fix that.
There she is.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Hi Nicole, Did you put a T in?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
there.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, she's in the middle now.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I did, but I undid the T.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Why does it sound good with a T?
Do other people do?
Pretty straightforward lastname, but it's Butcher Constance
.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, okay, all right , let's try this again.
We have Nicole Lamberson Look atthat, I do it right, okay, and
Nicole is a physician assistanteveryone she's based in Virginia
who has personally overcome thechallenges of polypharmacy with
prescribed psychiatric meds,leading to a severe and
prolonged withdrawal syndrome.
She currently serves as themedical director for the
(01:03):
nonprofit organizationBenzodiazepine Information
Coalition.
Nicole Cole founded theWithdrawal Project of the
Intercompass Initiative and sheplays a key role in marketing,
distribution and outreach forthe documentary Medicating
Normal.
She is also recognized for hercontributions to the Moudsley
Deprescribing Guidelines, acomprehensive resource for the
safe reduction ordiscontinuation.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Oh, shoot, I don't have mine nearby.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
You have a copy with all kinds of notes.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Oh girl, I'm a deprescriber.
I live off of this manual.
I don't sleep with it quite yet, but I got damn close.
Here's mine.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Oh, you do.
Look at you.
There you go.
Look at you.
Yes, I love it.
Mark Horowitz would be so proud.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Oh gosh, Jen's got better tabs than I do on this
thing.
I tab.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Everything it's fine, it's okay, it's not crazy.
All right, mollet's LeavesGuideline.
This is our resource guys forsafe reduction of
discontinuation ofantidepressants benzos,
gabapentinoids, z drugs yourBible for those of us that are
(02:06):
deprescribers or working withpeople who are going through
withdrawal.
I'm going to add that right inthere.
Okay, nicole recentlycontributed to the American
Society of Addictions MedicinesPeople with Lived Experience
panel.
She helped develop the USbenzodiazepine deprescribing
guidelines, which was a projectfunded by the FDA, and
additionally she works as acoach for individuals navigating
the process of discontinuingpsychiatric medication.
She does that through the TaperClinic with Dr Yosef.
Shout out to Dr Dr J.
We love you.
Welcome to the show, nicole.
I just ad-libbed a lot of thatbio, so I hope it's okay.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Yeah, totally Okay, you did great Do you sleep?
I want to know I was saying Ineed to quit some stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I think, yeah, you got to.
She's like I had to quit someshit.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Like, yeah, there's a lot of shit on there, I don't
know, if you sleep, I don'tthink you get any sleep, because
this is a lot of advocacy here,a lot of advocacy and mental
tasking.
And, by the way, I just want tosay thank you for everything
you're doing, for this reallyhurt community, because I also
(03:02):
know that you're part of it andJen and I are too.
So, and I also really want tosay thank you for this.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, well, that's all, mark, really.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, oh yeah, but you're part of it.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
You're in it girl.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, so thank you for being part of that wonderful
, necessary uh book that we allneed in this community.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
So thank you so much Well, and thanks to you guys too
, for, you know, getting thebook wanting to, you know, be on
the right side of history,really, so yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Because I do, Because we've been on the wrong side of
history for a long time andalso being part of history for a
long time.
With that being said, westarted this whole episode off
with have you been gaslit byyour own medical advice?
And I think that is a verystrong place to begin with your
(03:58):
history.
So would you mind sharing withus how you were gaslit by your
own medical advice?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah.
So I mean, before I tookpsychiatric medications I went
to PA school.
I was training to be a PA andwhen I started taking
psychiatric medications I was inPA school and moving into
graduating and starting toseeing patients and, I think,
(04:27):
being trained as any medicalprofessional.
I think it's just kind of bakedinto your education.
Before we came on I looked upthe definition of gaslit because
I want to be careful Like Idon't think I try to think back
about when I was practicing andseeing patients.
Did I ever have some motivationto be?
(04:50):
Well, if we look at thedefinition of gaslight making
someone dependent on theperpetrator or grossly
misleading someone for your ownadvantage I don't think it's
that so much with physicians andPAs and nurse practitioners and
medical providers, as much asit is just how we're taught and
(05:11):
like ignorance.
And when I say how we're taughtI mean, like you know, in our
training it's like, well, lookout to see if your patient is a
malingerer, you know, look outto see if your patient is maybe
using more than they're supposedto of their medication or if
they're lying to you, you know.
(05:32):
So you're you're kind of liketrained to be suspicious of your
patients and I think that comesout in how providers then go
into practice and treat people.
Also, though, you know you'retrained into using these
medications.
Psychiatric drugs is what we'rereally talking about today, but
(05:53):
other medications do, and therewas a ton of focus on how safe
and effective they are and youknow what they treat, but not a
lot of criticism or looking atlike the downsides of medicine
or how do we get people off ofthem when they're harming people
or not working.
There was very little, if any,focus on that, so I wanted.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
That's what I wanted to.
I wanted to ask you about that.
You're the first, like PA, thatwe've had here on the show, and
we've had other individualsthat have talked a little bit
about this same kind of idea.
So this is not something thatformally education-wise for you.
You received or was there anyawareness on here's how you put
(06:37):
them on, but here's what youhave to know to get them off,
and I'm not talking like thetraditional let's do every other
day for a couple of weeks oryou know, let's, let's remove
one and we'll add another one,Like all of the things that are
typical, like was there anyformal education you received on
?
Here is how you safely getsomeone off of these.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
No, absolutely zero.
Yeah, none.
You know there's the typicalstandard like side effects and
you know, look out for sideeffects.
But again I think that I meanwe can be gaslit by language,
like you know oh, it's so justthis little thing over here on
the side, you know where.
(07:22):
The term I think we should beusing is adverse effects, things
that are, you know, bad or butit's not this like little thing
on the side.
Sometimes adverse effects arereally bad for patients, you
know.
So it was kind of like thisminimized thing.
Oh well, it might cause someside effects, but you know no
big discussion on like howmedications can go horribly bad
(07:46):
for people sometimes, how to getthem off safely, what
withdrawal symptoms could happen.
I mean, you know, you know thatbenzos, if you abruptly
discontinue them, can causeseizures.
But that was kind of the extentof you know the training.
Really.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, benzos are like the only one, the only
classification that we talkabout in those terms, your
standard SSRI, snri is notreally it's like don't go cold
Turkey, but it's because itmight be bad for you, not
because you might have a seizureand die.
So there's.
You know, the benzodiazepinehas that, at least has that huge
(08:25):
warning, you know, whereasother classes don't have those
huge warnings.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
It's not like the SSRI say you could have
akathisia and then unalivingthoughts and end your life,
which is very reality, butthat's not part of it, right?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
That's not something that you see on the SSRI, like
withdrawal yeah Well, there'seven you know professionals in
this space who I work with, whomean well, who you know are
totally a hundred percent in onthe benzo issue.
You know, they know thatthey're causing physical
dependence and withdrawal andsevere suffering, but they you
(09:00):
can't get them to come in.
On the antidepressant thingthey're like, oh you know, so we
switched them to anantidepressant and I'm like, no,
you know, how can you not?
But you know, some people justkind of like, meet you halfway
and that's as far as they'rewilling to come and it's I don't
think it's again like some deep.
(09:20):
You know they're trying to keeppeople stuck under their care,
but they just don't know.
You know they're trying to keeppeople stuck under their care,
but they just don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
You know, I want to say I don't.
I don't think that.
I don't believe that, jen, andI think that either.
Um, what I think is is that alot of people are left in
slumber, um, and they, when theysee the iatrogenic harm that's
caused, like they dismiss it orthey're not looking at it as
that because they're trained tothink like a pill is going to
(09:48):
fix this thing.
So I'm going to find the bestone for this patient.
I can't say a hundred percent ofthe time that you know, but,
but Jen and I have talked a lotabout manipulative language and
things like that.
That that we've said and donein our practices and along the
(10:08):
way, and I think that happens alot.
And again, the intention isn'tto harm.
The outcome could be harm, butI don't know that the intent.
I don't think.
I know that I did notintentionally go in to cause
anybody harm.
I know that I did notintentionally go in to cause
anybody harm.
I would say things to make surethey were compliant, because
(10:29):
those are words that we used inthe space as compliance and
things like that.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Yeah or oh, that patient is non-compliant.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Non-compliant, yeah, non-compliant.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
As if you're like the overlord of their decisions and
care Overlord.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Well, here's the thing, nicole, and I'm curious
to know your opinion on this.
So, all right, we've hit aspace within this where, okay,
there is research that is outthere.
It's been there for quite sometime.
Okay, it's not like this is abrand new thing.
(11:20):
There are enough peoplespeaking out.
There is enough information outthere.
The part, I think, about thisthat bothers me the most, and
I'm not sure what?
I agree Terry and I are notsitting here going.
All physicians or prescribersare are bad people and are going
in this with like to to harmtheir patients.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Right, we know that that's not happening, right,
okay, but there's a lot of egodriven in the some of this
there's there's a shit.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
there's a shit ton of ego Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
There's specialties were surgeons.
Yes, yes, sorry, sorry Sorry,but but they're better with the
ego.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
My issue is here's the biggest problem that I have
is, if you're, the basis of whatyou do is so there's so much
academia behind it, there's somuch research behind it.
There's I mean, y'all didn'tget into this field and wake up
one day and go, oh okay, I'vegot advanced degrees.
Get into this field and wake upone day and go, oh okay, I've
(12:08):
got advanced degrees and I spenta shit ton of time doing that,
okay.
So how is it that, with theinformation that we have now,
you're not even in a space, orpeople are not even in a space
to get curious, just get usedwhere?
What happened to beinginquisitive within some of this
process, because that's how yougot to where you were in the
first place the basis of whatyou do, what happened to being
(12:28):
inquisitive within some of thisprocess, because that's how you
got to where you were in thefirst place the basis of what
you do is heavily rooted inacademia and in research.
So now all of this is there,but that is easily dismissed.
That's the part that I can'twrap my brain around is the idea
that I'm a physician, I'm aprescriber and I can't go just a
little farther to read aboutthis, to actually pick up a
(12:51):
manual that has 19,400references in it of things that
are research-based, a good chunkof them that are rooted in
academia.
But I can't, I won't even lookat that.
That ignorance, that level ofignorance, is where, then?
I believe that, to me, isiatrogenic.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Yeah, I say all the time like it's.
It's forgivable to have notknown, because the system is set
up for people not to know,right Like the training isn't
there, although I do meet someyounger psychiatrists now who
were like, oh yeah, this was inmy program, so it may some
things may be changing since Iwent to school, but it's
(13:32):
understandable if you weretrained to not know or you
weren't given the information.
But it's really unforgivablefor your for you to deny when
your patient comes in and saysthis is happening to me and
here's this information, here'sthis book, here's this, you know
all these articles and etcetera, and for you to still dig
(13:53):
in your heels and like so hugewhy, why?
not get curious, right?
Well, if you know what it'slike and this is going to sound
like an excuse and I don't wantit to, because there is no
(14:16):
excuse when patients are beingharmed but like to work in, you
know corporate medicine and youhave 10 minutes and they're
sending you bulletins once amonth saying if you don't speed
up your time and be moreefficient and see more patients
and oh, by the way, yourdictations are 72 words too long
.
You know, hurry up, hurry up,hurry up.
(14:37):
It's not a good system to beable to have a ton of extra time
to sit, and I mean this is aproblem that takes like I don't
think I became a so-calledexpert in it until I sat down
and really like, studied andlearned and devoted my life to
it and you saw the size of thatpurple textbook.
(14:58):
Like most physicians and medicalpeople who are learning things
are doing it selfishly becausethey need CMEs, right, so
they're going to pick somethingthat has something attached to
it that gets their CME creditsmet, and so one thing maybe we
can do is try to get CME orsomething assigned to these
(15:19):
topics so that maybe people willchoose, you know, to learn
about this because there'ssomething in it for them.
I also think that there'scognitive dissonance at play,
like we're asking people toaccept that they've been
practicing in a way that'sharmful and that's really hard
(15:40):
to do for anybody.
You know, with any topic, tosay like you were wrong, you
have to admit that and also youmay have been harming people,
you know.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I think because that there's an assumption of
intentionality there.
You know, like I have not, Ihave not been harming people
because we're defending theintention, right, like I am not
a harmful person, I haven't doneit, instead of saying you know
what.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Unintentionally, maybe I did you know, and then
getting really curious aboutthat.
That's what Jen and I havetalked about.
Like unintentionally, we'veharmed people, yes, you know.
And now there's no forgivenessif we keep doing it.
That's the thing.
Yeah, once you know, you can't.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Yeah, and so you know , sometimes also, people are
like burnout and I'm already,like you know, strapped for time
and all these patients andtheir problems, and now you want
me to like learn something newand change everything.
And it's just like you know, Ithink't.
Why aren't providers curious?
And I think some of it is justwell.
(16:58):
Like I said, we don't, theydon't have the time to be.
But also a lot of people andmyself included in this, when I
went to school, like I wasreally good at memorizing things
and I was super book smart andI wasn't, I wasn't critical or
somebody who like questioned,and so people who are by nature,
(17:19):
I always try to ask them, likehow did you become so?
Like, look behind the curtain,is that just how you've always
been?
Because I just studied, read,regurgitated and did well and
was naive and believed what Iwas being taught.
Maybe because I grew up in amedical family and, like you
(17:41):
know daughters and their dads.
So I thought, oh, my dad is adoctor and he helps people, and
so my sense of medical care wasdoctors always help, they never
harm.
And so I just naturally trustedand thought all these doctors
are training me, they're givingme the right information.
(18:02):
I had no freaking idea thatthere was like this dark side to
really much of anything.
I mean, when I got harmed, thisis what I said to my dad I'm
going to go to the FDA and tellthem and the drug companies and
he just like cackled in my facelike what you know like.
(18:22):
But that's how naive I was.
I really thought that theseinstitutions would like give a
shit that this was happening.
You know, this was happening.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
That's interesting because you're talking to fellow
rule followers.
Anyways, me, I don't know aboutJen, but it's kind of the same
thing Give me the informationand I take the information.
It wasn't until the last Idon't know, maybe 10 years that
I started getting reallyinterested in this, but I do
remember in undergrad, which wasa long time ago for me, we had
(18:54):
to take a class called criticalthinking.
It was a class we had to takeand now that's not there anymore
and I'm like bring it back.
Please bring that class back.
We need to have access to thatinstead of some of these other
things that you're required totake.
But when you were describing it,I used to play the flute.
Okay, I played the flute foreight years, all right, but I
(19:21):
played the notes, right, Iplayed the notes as they were on
the sheet, right?
Exactly like that.
And I would always look at thepeople that could just sight,
read or or play by ear or do allthese things, and wonder how,
how can you do that?
Because I'm so rigid in the waythat I play and the way that I
(19:41):
think you know and I'm.
To me, that was the example oflike, like, yeah, it's like
somebody who can play life byear and can pick up on things
that other people can't pick upon, who are just book smart.
Not just because that's a bigdeal, too, to be book smart, but
just reading the sheet music,reading the notes, playing the
(20:01):
notes as they're written and notdeviating from that at all is a
difficult thing to do foracademics.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Well, especially I mean some of it is probably like
genetics or how you were raised.
If you raised in a house thatyou were like everything is
classic.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
But you know, I think we can all.
We can change how we were,especially when you have a big
learning experience.
You know, my grandmother usedto always say mother experience
teaches a valuable lesson.
My grandmother used to alwayssay mother experience teaches a
valuable lesson, but she chargesa hefty fee you know it's so
(20:40):
true, I like that, but you getexperience and then you can do
and be different.
Like I am so much morecritically thinking and curious
now, and one of the people thatI interviewed on Medicating
Normal's YouTube channel hername's Margaret Heffernan.
She has a brilliant TED Talkabout a concept called willful
blindness, where people arewillfully blind to things.
(21:04):
You know, terrible things camefrom people being willfully
blind and when I asked her inthe interview, like how do we
not be that way?
And she was like well, everyoneis and you're gonna be, and
like because it's just human.
But you can start listeningmore to friends or people in
(21:28):
your circle who are questionerslike, who are talking about
things away from the norm, andinstead of just automatically
dismissing them, like startgetting curious and looking into
what they're saying becausethey might be onto something.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah, or away from your norm, right Like just
talking differently about thesame subject, right Like really
listening to understand thatperson deeply?
You don't have to agree withthem.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah.
And some of them, I mean theystill may be tinfoil hat weirdos
at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
I still want to know why like why?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
why are you wearing a tinfoil hat?
So, nicole, you you mentionedthe comment about your dad and
how, when you came to somerealizations that were happening
for yourself from thepsychiatric harm, that was done
right.
It was like, well, I'm going togo to the FDA and I'm going to
like, like, don't you peopleknow?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
a little bit off of that.
I was going to call Pfizer andbe like hell, yeah, you're
fucking people up.
Right.
Don't you know that this drugis dangerous, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I mean, okay.
So in your, when I was readingyour bio, one of the first
things that I have to ask herabout is and then you mentioned
this right.
So when I see the FDA, not onlyas a consumer, okay and as
someone who has been harmed bypsych meds, but also helps
people get through deprescribing, off of psych meds, right, I
(22:55):
see those three letters and Iget real pissed off.
Okay, lots and lots and lots ofthings anger me when I see that
.
Now I'm curious about the factthat you are working on a
project that was funded by theFDA, the US Benzodeprescribing
(23:16):
Right Project, correct?
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Okay, tell us a little bit about that and
whether or not what you'rewilling to share with that and,
if there was some hesitation todo that, if it was something
that you know, just based off ofthe harm that's happened to you
, how do you trust those threeletters and work hand in hand
with them, doing a project withthem?
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Yeah.
So they I mean the FDA wasn'tanyone that we actually met with
, although they were involved.
You know they put up the money,but I didn't ever hesitate to
do the project.
I mean, I just felt like goingin, I had measured expectations,
I knew, okay, this is amainstream medical society, the
(23:58):
American Society of AddictionMedicine, who got the grant.
They are only going to move,but so much, you know.
But if I can show up with allthese other patients and they
are nice enough to have thispanel, you know I was skeptical.
Like are they just checking thebox?
Like we had a patient panel andthey're not going to listen to
(24:19):
us, you know.
And on some things they didn't,but they did listen, quite a
bit actually, and they tookfeedback from us and they
changed lots of things to wherethe guidance was way better than
it would have been had we notattended.
And also shout out to all thepeople who filled out the public
(24:41):
commentary portion when theguidelines were up for public
comment.
I think that helped quite a bitas well.
So are the guidelines perfect?
No, maudsley is much better.
So if anybody asked me, I'd sayjust buy the purple book, you
know, yeah.
So are the guidelines perfect.
No, maudsley is much better.
So if anybody asked me, I'd sayjust buy the purple book, you
know.
But there's, you know, there'sstuff in the ASAM guidance paid
(25:02):
for by the FDA that makes mewant to rip out my hair, you
know.
Like try antidepressantsinstead, because they're safer.
I mean, I can't tell you howmany times I went back and forth
with them because they're safer.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I can't tell you how many times I went back and forth
with them.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Yeah, I said please define safer.
What do you mean by this?
You know I fought and fought, Itried to get them.
But again it's like you have tokind of accept and know who
you're working with but alsoknow that if you can just make
it better and move the needle abit like it's still good and
somebody now can take thisdocument and say here's this
document by the ASAM.
(25:39):
It's endorsed by 10 or nine oreight other medical societies in
the US.
It says right here that you'renot supposed to cut me off my
benzo, you're supposed to let metaper at% to 10% a month.
It's still going to get peoplewhat they need eventually, which
I think is support in theUnited States for coming off
(26:00):
benzos slowly.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
So yeah, I think from a consumer level, though,
there's such mistrust now whenyou've been harmed.
There's such mistrust in theFDA, in big pharma, in your
prescribers, like any insight onhow to bridge that, to kind of
get what you need regardless ofthat mistrust.
(26:24):
Because if you're just livingin mistrust, then you're not
moving your own needle at alleither, and there's so much
mistrust and anger and fear andall of that in this resentment
and all the things in this group.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Resentment's a bitch.
It is.
I'm in it right now.
It's horrible because, then youcan't.
Even even when you try to takeadvice, even if it's just
general medical advice oranything, right, there's such a
twist to it that you're justlike, nope, I can't, I can't.
So then you actually stopdiscontinuing other things or
ideas that might actually berelevant and applicable and
(26:58):
helpful to you.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Right, Because of who it's coming from yeah, you have
to constantly be checkingyourself.
I think anybody who's beenharmed in the way that I have
has medical trauma.
That's normal.
You're going to be traumatizedby what's happened to you, you
know, especially if you had thishorrible health crisis and
(27:19):
everybody you met with told youit wasn't real, it wasn't
happening, you know, and you hadnowhere to turn.
That's the most awful positionto be in.
But you know, I kind of laughnow because when I go into new
medical providers, like it sayson my chart occupation physician
assistant.
So I think when I come in theythink like I'm going to be one
(27:41):
of them or whatever, and thenthey realize like oh, here's
this difficult, noncompliantperson here.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Tinfoil hat wearing PA yeah it's got that tinfoil
hat on.
I'm like surprise.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yeah, but I'm not what they expect and a lot of
them don't like me, you know,and I don't care, Because
through what's happened to me Irealized like I am a consumer of
medicine, I can spend my moneyin finding care that is
collaborative and that you knowmeets my needs.
(28:17):
And if you're going to be thatoverlord person in our
relationship, I don't want it,you know I'll leave, You're
fired and I'll find somebodybetter.
So I think you have to kind ofknow that that's the landscape
of medicine, at least in theUnited States.
You know we don't have like theNHS where you have to deal with
(28:38):
government.
So that's one of the upsides ofthe US health care system,
which is totally not that great,you know.
But still you get to pick whoyou see, and I think you can
also do your own research, Likeyou're responsible for your own
health care, and I know that'shard for people because they
(29:01):
want to just be able to like.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
As therapists, we say that to our clients all the
time they're like what do?
You mean we're responsible,that's why we're seeing you.
No, actually you're responsible.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah, I mean you know your own self best.
You're the one living in yourbody.
Yep, you have to take ownership.
And I know that sucks, because,yeah, I used to be somebody who
wanted to just walk in and say,here you go, fix it, you know,
but that's how I got.
Injured is just by blindlytrusting and trying to hand over
my agency to somebody else andlet them do whatever they
(29:34):
thought was right.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
So that's the buzzword of the show agency.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Almost every study go search and see if there's a
support group for the thing thatyour doctor's trying to get you
to take.
If there is, what are thesepeople complaining of?
Then make a risk benefitassessment for yourself.
Is what I have bad enough thatI'm willing to risk this, that
(29:57):
and the other?
All of medicine is risk benefit.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Everything can harm, nicole tell us a little bit
about what happened to you inthe psychiatric community.
Give us a little bit of thatstory.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
You mean, like when I got prescribed and how I was
treated.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, you started to talk about it.
And then we do what Terry and Ido best and we derail and just
jump in, but you started yourstory about being in school as a
PA, and that was yourintroduction to psych meds.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, so the first psych med med I took although I
didn't realize it was a psychmed was zyban, which was for
smoking, but it's really wellbuterin repackaged, you know, um
, because I wanted to quitsmoking.
I figured, oh, if I'm gonna bea PA, like, I've got to leave
behind this college cigarettething that I started, you know,
(30:51):
um, and I don't remember anyharm from that one, although,
you know, at the time I was sonaive it could have changed my
mood or done something and Ididn't pick up on it, but I
wasn't on it long.
And then, when I graduated PAschool, I think what a lot of
people experience is kind ofimposter syndrome.
Like I'm 20 something years old, I have these people's lives in
(31:13):
my hands.
I just went to school, but Idon't have a ton of like
experience other than myclinical rotations.
And now I just have to, like goout there and do this, like
start practicing medicine, youknow.
And so I had anxiety at work and, you know, stress from starting
.
That I also think, if I'm beingtotally honest looking back, I
(31:37):
was still 20-something, so nottaking the best care of myself,
you know.
And you know staying up toolate and having beers on the
weekends with friends and stufflike that.
So I wound up on Xanax and itwas prescribed to me by one of
my colleagues, actually at theclinic that I was working at,
just very casual, nonchalant,like take it as needed.
(32:01):
You know, it's great foranxiety.
What you have is anxiety, and Ithink it turned on me quickly,
as short-term benzos often do,where people start to get more
anxious.
So having something calledintradose withdrawal, where the
drug's wearing off and you'rebecoming super anxious but you
don't attribute it to themedication, you just think like
(32:21):
what's wrong with me?
I'm becoming like this neurotic, you know I can't relax.
And that's when I enteredpsychiatry.
Xanax made me suicidal thinkingsometimes, and so that scared me
and I was like depressed, andso I was like, oh, I better see
a psychiatrist.
You know, I thought I washelping myself, because that's
(32:44):
how we frame mental health Idon't even like that word in,
you know, in our societies likeget help.
You know, going into theseinstitutions is helping yourself
, it's healthy.
And so that's what I thoughtand I I entered into psychiatry
and for the next five years Ibecame a victim of polypharmacy.
(33:08):
I was drugged nearly to death.
I was drugged nearly to deathsix psych meds at once.
Two of them were benzos and onewas the Z drug sleeping pill,
all of which work, you know,nearly the same.
So I was on three of the samedrugs, basically Adderall, which
also makes no sense when you'regiving somebody all these
(33:30):
downers and now you're givingthem speed.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
My brain was Well sure it does you need it for the
symptoms caused by the otherones?
Yeah, it makes total sense.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
And then you need to sleep aid because of the
stimulant and all the other shitthat you're on.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah, and then, remeron, because I lost tons of
weight on Adderall, and then Iparked in front of the fridge
and was eating cold chickenbones and jello at three in the
morning in bed.
You know that whole side effectthing, Seroquel for sleep,
which you shouldn't beprescribing antipsychotics to
(34:05):
people for sleep Off label,Nicole, it's fine yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
All the time.
That is all the time.
And kids, kids get Seroquel forsleep all the time.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I cannot tell you how many clients I have that.
That is the exact trajectory ofhow Seroquel was entered into
their treatment plan.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
So here I am on all these meds.
I'm sicker than ever and Istarted to not be able to
function at work anymore.
To not be able to function atwork anymore, I was agoraphobic
because I was so tolerant andintroduced to the benzos that I
started being unable to likeleave my house.
My neighbor would ring thedoorbell and I would run
upstairs and hide from fear andhad no idea why I was doing that
(34:45):
, like I was just driven by fearbecause these drugs had stopped
working and I was gettingrebound.
You know terror and anxiety.
And my dad, bless him read anarticle in Outside Magazine by
Matt Samet, who's a famousclimber who had benzoinjury, and
he wrote his story in amainstream magazine.
(35:08):
And my dad just happened to bea subscriber to Outside and he
gave me the story and I read itand at first I was like you know
I'm tired, you know I don'twant to be told that.
I kind of I rejected it atfirst, like here's somebody who
doesn't understand my mentalillness.
(35:28):
You know, because I was boughtinto that Every time I would go
to the doctor and complain ofthese things, the messaging I
was getting was your mentalillness is getting worse, you
have treatment resistant, thisYou're going to have to manage
your mental health for the restof your life, et cetera.
A very terrible message, ahopeless message, really.
(35:50):
But then eventually I sat withthat more and I'm like this guy
like speaks my language.
He described everything I'mfeeling and then it just like
instantly switched.
I was like I'm being fuckingpoisoned and I need to get off
of this shit.
Like holy crap, you know.
And then I went into a detoxcenter, which was the second
(36:14):
stupidest mistake I ever made,because more medical advice told
me oh, you're on benzos, yougot to go to a rehab, because
most medical providers don'tunderstand the difference
between physical dependence andaddiction.
So when I asked for help withbeing on all these psych meds
(36:37):
because benzos and Adderall werein the picture they just
assumed that I was an addict.
And I remember questioning atthe time and maybe this is a
lesson for people when you'retalking about, like, how to
navigate healthcare I had a gutfeeling and I ignored it.
And the gut feeling was howdoes this make any sense?
Every single person who sees apsychiatrist has to go to rehab.
(36:59):
Like that is something's notadding up, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
But I was scared of having a seizure and I thought
oh, I need somebody to overseemy care, so I'll just go there
and whatever.
It'll take 30 days, I thinkthat's what we're told about it.
Sometimes more than like you'rean addict because you're on
benzodiazepine, it's more of youneed a medically supervised
detox thing, which still is toofast.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
It's too fast.
It's so fast, they do it in aweek and then send you home.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
I was going to say, were you there a year, nicole?
Speaker 3 (37:31):
No, and the amount of shit I was on, it would have
been way longer than a year.
Oh sure.
If.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
I would have done it properly, oh sure.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
But no, no, and I was gaslit all to hell in that
place too.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
So all of the psych meds that you were on were
discontinued within a week nothey kept the ones that, or just
.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah, so the ones they put in the bad addictive
category, they rip you off ofthe ones that are in the good
medicine category, like Seroquel, they'll keep you on.
Remeron, they keep you on, okay.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Yeah, but they don't understand.
That's what I mean.
It was the Benzo.
These also cause physicaldependence and withdrawal Right.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
And then they added more Gabapentin.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
When I was in there, they added huge doses of
gabapentin, yeah, so the benzois what you were taken off of
the benzo and the stimulant yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Two benzos, ambien and Adderall all got essentially
cold turkey in a week, oh mygosh.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Well, you said I was gaslit all to hell during that
time.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, explain that, if youwould.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
You know I'm pacing up and down the halls and my
feet are bleeding.
And from akathisia, and theyhad given me a little Dixie cup,
as they do in those places ofeffects or, you know, because
that's the treatment.
Oh, you're anxious.
So now you need an SNRI insteadof it's withdrawal.
And I took that one dose of itand it like imploded my nervous
(39:06):
system.
I had vertigo, that was I can'teven put words to the vertigo
that I had.
It felt like somebody put mybed up on a stilt and just spun
it in a circle.
You know, put my bed up on astilt and just spun it in a
circle, you know.
And I was had akathisia.
I was pacing, my skin wasburning and I was saying like,
help me, you know I can.
Something horrible is happening.
(39:30):
And the next day they came backto my room with another little
cup of Effexor again and saidyou're not being compliant with
your care.
You're never going to getbetter if you don't take your
medicine.
You know you don't want to getbetter.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Oh, that that you don't want to get better yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
And and also those places are very 12 step.
You know, that's their model.
Everybody has to read the bigbook and all of this, which was
totally irrelevant to my.
I wanted off of all of thatcrap badly, I didn't want to
take it at all.
And all these other peoplearound me had, you know, true
(40:03):
addiction problems where theywere really struggling with, you
know, avoiding use of asubstance.
And they would say to me likeyou know, read chapter four in
the big book.
You're struggling withsurrendering or whatever.
And I would just be like whatis this place?
How did I wind up in this place?
(40:25):
They're going to kill me.
And so I wound up calling afriend and was like get me out
of here before I die.
Essentially, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
That's because there are no detoxes and long-term
really rehabs and things likethat for this type of issue.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Um, yeah, I mean, we found one actually in florida
that does an outpatient benzotaper program associated with
their rehab.
I don't know if they're stillopen, but yeah, I mean that mean
that's the state of affairs,One that we've come across.
That knows, you know.
But maybe things with this newguidance from the ASAM will
(41:05):
change.
I don't know.
I don't know how the rehabindustry is regulated as far as
you know, can they not?
Well can they get in troublefor now, if the standard of care
is tapering, you know?
but that was give the grimstatistics that like only 5% of
people succeed in those placesor something and they cost, you
(41:42):
know, hundreds of thousands ofdollars.
But that actually was one ofthe complaints of the patient
panel for the ASAM benzoguidance was.
There's a chapter in there thatsays if the person, if the
patient's withdrawal isdifficult or extreme, you know,
(42:02):
send them to an inpatient unitand we're like they're not going
to help, they're not going toknow what to do and they're just
going to rip them off.
And maybe the reason why thewithdrawal is difficult for that
patient is because the providerthey're seeing has been going
too fast.
So in that case you don't justgo to rehab and rip them off.
And we know providers are goingto want to take that exit like,
(42:25):
oh, you're difficult, Go torehab because they don't want to
have to deal with it.
You know, instead of youprobably need to up dose, you
know, get stable and then taperslower and use one of these
other techniques.
So that, yeah, we complained alot about it, but it's still in
there.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
So when you got out, your friend came got you.
At that point the benzos, thestimulants were out of your body
and you were on what SSRIs?
Snris at that point, yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
I was still on Remeron Gabapentin, and then
they had added.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Trazodone as well.
Okay, oh, help you withsleeping that night, or what?
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yeah, that was the intention.
It wasn't working.
So what'd you?
Speaker 2 (43:10):
do.
What happened then, nicole?
Tell us about how you got yourway through this, to the end of
getting off of these drugs,about how you got your way
through this to the end ofgetting off of these drugs.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Yeah, so I moved in with my elderly grandmother, who
had no business trying to takecare of somebody in akathisia.
But we were all in my familyfrantically trying to help me.
We had no idea this couldhappen.
When I went into the place weall thought, oh, I mean, I had
told my job, like, I'll be backin a couple weeks, that was my
plan.
So that's how naive I was towhat was about to happen to me.
(43:43):
I never made it back to thatjob.
My dad had to, you know, godown and pack up my apartment
and move everything home.
So I had to move home.
So I had to move home.
And for four months I stayed inthat state of severe withdrawal
, thinking it's got, you know,it's got to go away soon, not
(44:04):
knowing, oh, you know,protracted withdrawal is real
and it can last for years, youknow.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Kind of another way, you probably didn't even have
those words then.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yeah, I was still.
Yeah, you probably didn't havethose words, yeah you probably
didn't have those words thinkingin the medical mindset.
Like an admission I can make isI went to to benzo buddies and
I read some of these people whowere having symptoms at five and
six years and I was like theseare psych meds, they're probably
mental patients.
Like I don't know if that'sreal, like how could the you
(44:33):
know?
And so apologies, becauseprotracted withdrawal is real
and it does happen and itdoesn't matter.
I mean, you know what?
What is mental patient?
Anyways, one in five people areon these meds in the U?
S, so we're all mental patientsat this point, Apparently.
(44:55):
Yeah, um.
But so I hung on for fourmonths and it was so severe that
I had a suicide attempt, like Iwas, like I can't do this
anymore.
I wound up in the ICU andluckily survived, so I'm happy
that I'm alive.
To anybody who's thinking aboutending their life over psych
med withdrawal, you know, pleasedon't.
(45:16):
It's.
Once you start healing it'sworth it to be here.
I reinstated some benzodiazepineand that was enough to kind of
keep me hanging on.
It didn't fix the injury thatmy nervous system had sustained,
but I was.
I was able to continue to carryon and then I tapered over like
(45:38):
18 months to get off the smallamount of benzo that I added
back to, you know, put some ofthe fire out of the rebound
withdrawal that they hadinitiated Until my nervous
system slowly, slowly, slowlystarted to recover from what had
happened to me and stayed busy.
(46:00):
You know, I feel like a hugepart of healing is having
purpose and helping other peopleand getting out of your own
head, so like I neededdistraction all the time, which
is what my bio is about.
I signed up for so many thingsjust to like survive, you know,
(46:21):
yeah.
And so now I'm here and I stillhave some symptoms left over
from the injury, but it's, youknow, massively better from what
it was.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
I'm curious, and you may not know this question what
did your dad learn from all ofthis In the beginning?
Speaker 3 (46:40):
he was very typical MD, you know, and to his credit,
he did say like I need to beyour dad like and not your
doctor, you know.
But I was looking to him tolike.
Please fix me, help me.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
You both.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
Yeah, at one point I even said like put me to sleep
Because he's an anesthesiologist.
I was just suffering so bad Ididn't care.
Yeah, Like can't you put me ina coma, you know.
But he would.
You know, in the beginning hegaslit me a bunch too.
He'd be like this doesn't makeany sense.
(47:19):
You keep saying it's gettingworse, but the longer you're off
it should get better.
You know.
And when you study withdrawal,you see that it can get worse
before it gets better for lotsof people.
You know, he would say things Ithink in like a very tough love
type of way to try to get me tokind of snap out of it, like,
oh, if you would just get offyour ass and try harder, you
know, would just get off yourass and try harder, you know,
(47:40):
but that was really the firstyear.
And then he got way moreeducated and apologized and just
said, like I didn't realize howsick you were, you know, and I
thought to myself, well, I don'tknow how you couldn't realize
like I was threatening suicide50 times a day.
But it was more about, I think,think that he just didn't want
to accept or, you know, believethat this was possible.
(48:00):
But after that, like, we healedand he has been like my biggest
support and you know I would bedead if I didn't have him in my
withdrawal.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
So yeah, yeah, I think he didn't see it because
your arm wasn't broken.
Yeah, it's an invisible youknow you didn't see a broken
limb or a broken.
You know what I mean.
So when you don't see that andyou just see somebody laying
around or whatever, like howlong are you going to be sick
already?
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Yeah, I mean my stepmom was like we're not going
to handle you with kid glovesand I was like barely're not
going to handle you with kidgloves and I was like barely
alive, like I don't know if Ican do this for another second.
So people said like obnoxiousshit, like that to me all the
time.
Or I'd be like listing offsymptoms and they'd be like I
get that, you know.
And I'm like no, you don't.
Like I'm disabled, you know Ican't function, I'm going to die
(48:53):
, you know I'm not sure I cansurvive this.
So you don't get this, you know.
But even people within thecommunity kind of gaslight each
other too, like because there'svarying levels of withdrawal.
So I noticed that people whohad more mild symptoms would say
things to me and I was.
I mean, at one point I was soill I had bed sores and like
(49:14):
dreadlocks in my hair from notbeing able to get out of bed,
you know.
And there was people who wouldsay like just push harder.
If you put on headphones, youshould be able to fly on an
airplane, you know stupid thingslike that where it's like maybe
that's your experience, butsome people are really severely
(49:34):
ill in this and that's not goingto work Like I think there's
this.
Sometimes it's like think aboutwhat you say first, and this
goes for people practicingmedicine and people supporting
people in withdrawal.
Like people aren't stupid.
If I could have put onheadphones, you know, you think
I wouldn't have just done that.
Like we're gone for a walk inthe sun, like I'm not dumb, I'm
(49:58):
injured, I'm extremely sick, andso it's like we could all pause
and think about, like, what'sabout to come out of my mouth,
you know, and how's that goingto affect the other person?
It doesn't even make any sense,you know.
It's that whole thing aboutlistening to hear instead of to
respond, and so many people justwant to like say something
(50:21):
instead of think about whatthey're about to say to somebody
else.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
And I think, looking at people as if they're not an
outlier, because I feel like somuch of the med harm community
communities looked at.
You know, jen says her storyshe's an outlier, your story
that's an outlier, you know.
And I'm like, well, if allthese outliers exist, how do we
have these big platforms outhere of people who are injured?
(50:47):
You know, so I that's anothergaslighting thing is like it's
your experience.
That's not all the experienceyou know, or most people don't
have that experience.
Well, maybe not.
Maybe maybe there's a lot ofhidden injury that we don't know
about yet because people aren'ttalking about it the way we are
you know, and well to that.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
I say like, well, if it's not in your differential,
you know, you guys know whatdifferential diagnosis means you
have when, when you're aclinician, you start to make a
list of what it couldpotentially be when you're
trying to diagnose somebody.
If you don't even put it on thelist, you're never going to
accurately diagnose it.
So, yeah, maybe you've neverseen it before because it's not
even on your list of things thatyou're looking for.
(51:31):
But that doesn't mean it's notthere.
And even if this is, quoteunquote rare, like by whatever
percentage we define rare, somany people are on these
medications that you know 15% ofpeople taking them is a pretty
big number.
You know it is.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
I always look at big pharma advertising Whenever they
start advertising a newmedication for something like
right now it's TardiveDyskinesia is being advertised.
That used to be very rare withan antipsychotic.
That used to be what it was.
I'm like either there's notthat many people on
antipsychotics or there's morepeople on antipsychotics or
(52:13):
other classifications ofmedications are also causing
these things, and akathisia, Ithink, is often misdiagnosed.
Tardive dyskinesia andakathisia, I think, are you know
they're close cousins.
Yeah, and there's a confusionbetween the two of them.
So I'm thinking that some ofthat tardive dyskinesia stuff is
(52:34):
really akathisia that you'reseeing more and more of in other
classifications.
So I'm like watching intentlywhere big pharma is putting
their money, because whereverthey're putting their money, is
the medication or the sideeffect that's coming out bigger
now than ever before.
So I don't know.
It's just interesting if youjust sit back and listen and
(52:54):
you'll know that it's notoutliers, it's not rare, it's
not.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
If big pharma is putting money into marketing
this thing, it's not rare, andnow there's a pill to treat the
injury from previous pills.
The rare injury, the rare yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
It's not rare if big pharma is soaking tons of money
into it.
You know what I mean.
Like it's not rare.
Well, there was a recent, youknow.
Speaker 3 (53:15):
Wall Street Journal article about benzo harm and the
journalist told me well, we hadmore response to this article
than all articles and she's likethat tells me there's a massive
problem, that we've hadhundreds and hundreds of people
writing in.
We don't get that response.
(53:36):
She says you know from mostthings that we put out, so
something's here.
But she said, yeah, some of theresponses were physicians
saying well, this is so rare,you know, you've made it seem
like it's a regular occurrence.
And she's like well then, whyare some like, why do we get?
massive response from people youknow.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
It's funny because even on social media I'll have,
you know, the random physicianor nurse or whatever, come on
and be like you're, you'recausing these things.
Don't do that to people,whatever.
I just go read the comments.
There's 300 comments of peopleon here and I'm like, and that's
on my small little platform,you know.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
So, like, if you just read, you know and pay
attention.
Like you're saying, thesepeople still deserve to
treatment Like it's iatrogenic.
Even if it's a small populationof people who are having this
really severe adverse reactionlike we have to help them.
You have to be able toaccurately diagnose it and help
them.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Right, you don't just write people off.
Well, if a certain type ofcancer were rare, people would
bend over backwards trying tofigure out how to solve this
rare, rare, rare cancer.
But in the psychiatric world,if it's rare, well it's just
rare.
We're just going to let you beover here in the not, you know,
in the not med harm community,but the um.
(54:58):
I can't think of what it is aresistant community, you know,
you're just resistant.
You know your body's resistant.
We're just going to stick youover there.
You know there's.
There's no call to help therare side effect.
There's no call out.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
It's just like, well, or it's cat, it's categorized
as just part of like the mentalillness as well, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
You know it's categorized.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
As part of that.
We just had Angie Peacock onfrom Medicating Normal and she
talked about that.
She's like, if I end my liferight now, this is what it's
going to be, is I'm just goingto be that harmed PTSD, harmed
vet, right, and that's whatwill-.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
The mentally ill person that took their own life.
Speaker 2 (55:36):
The mentally ill person who couldn't make it,
when in reality that's reallynot what it was about.
But that's what those rareconditions end up being.
We blame it on the mentalillness, when in reality that's
not what is causing all of thisright.
It has nothing to do with themental illness.
Nicole, you weren't somebodywho was a mentally ill patient.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
Yeah, I just had stress at work.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
Yes, yeah, the origin story is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
It is and that's not what it was.
For you right and as you lookat all those years and what went
on, it wasn't somebody who wasseverely mentally ill.
It was a product, a byproductof psych harm, med harm.
Speaker 3 (56:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And I guess then it comes backto how you define mental illness
.
If we're casting the net sowide that we catch everybody,
then sure I was quote unquotementally ill by DSM standards,
because everybody is.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
Everybody is everybody is.
I say that a lot.
You know, we cast a larger net,we catch more fish, and we
catch a lot of fish thatshouldn't be in the net in the
first place, you know so yes,you're, you're 100% correct.
Speaker 3 (56:48):
A lot of what medicine does, that's a, that's
part partly responsible for thisis like that, that old saying
if everything, if you, if allyou have is a hammer,
everything's a nail Right.
So when I went back to mypsychiatrist and I'm in severe
withdrawal, she was like, ofcourse, you feel terrible,
you're mentally ill, you needyour psychiatric medications,
(57:09):
you've stopped treating yourmental illness.
And then I went to the rehabplace and said I'm suffering all
these symptoms so, so bad.
And they say well, you're adrug addict, you're wanting, you
know, to take more medication,you're just craving and all this
.
And so it's like everybody'swalking around with these
hammers and I'm like these areall medical professionals in the
(57:31):
same exact system, but they'reall diagnosing me with different
stuff just based on what theiryou know specialty is, and no
one's listening to what I'mtelling them, which is I'm in
withdrawal from this stuff, youknow.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah, well, that was it.
As we wrap up here, nicole, isthere anything that you want our
listeners to know or anythingthat you haven't talked about?
That is important, especiallyfor those that are going through
this.
Speaker 3 (58:00):
I think, just you know, for anybody who's on these
medications, you know, I wouldsay get curious, you know, read
about them, learn about them,and maybe they're still for you,
you know.
Maybe you come to thatconclusion and that's okay.
But I think we can all, insteadof like like when people are
saying something bad happened tome.
You know one thing, one sort ofexample I like to use is when
(58:26):
Toyota sends me a recall noticein the mail for my car, right,
I'm grateful, I'm like oh crap,something's wrong, the airbag or
whatever.
I better look into this andbelieve it and fix it.
But why, when somebody saysmedication harmed me, are we so
like?
I don't want to hear that story.
(58:46):
And so get curious about like.
Why is that your responseinitially, especially if you're
somebody taking it?
You know like both things canexist at the same time, I think,
where people feel helped bysomething and people are very
harmed too.
So we just need to have moreopen communication and
conversations about this,without being so polarized, I
(59:08):
think.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Great Agree, all right, if you've hung out with
us so far, please make sure youlike, comment, share.
Give us all the stars.
That's all that's necessary,all the stars.
Send us your Gaslit Truth atthegaslittruthpodcast at
gmailcom.
And thank you, nicole Lamberson, for hanging out with us.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
Thanks for having me.
What if you've been gaslit into taking your own
medical advice?
We are your whistleblowingshrinks, Dr Tara Lynn and
therapist Jen, and this is thegaslit truth podcast.
Welcome everybody.
Yes, all right Jen who do wehave?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Bring her in you, slide her in Everybody today we
have.
Nicole Lambertson on the show.
Lambertson, we got her.
Is she in the middle?
I'm going to fix that.
There she is.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Hi Nicole, Did you put a T in?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
there.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, she's in the middle now.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I did, but I undid the T.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Why does it sound good with a T?
Do other people do?
Pretty straightforward lastname, but it's Butcher Constance
.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, okay, all right , let's try this again.
We have Nicole Lamberson Look atthat, I do it right, okay, and
Nicole is a physician assistanteveryone she's based in Virginia
who has personally overcome thechallenges of polypharmacy with
prescribed psychiatric meds,leading to a severe and
prolonged withdrawal syndrome.
She currently serves as themedical director for the
(01:03):
nonprofit organizationBenzodiazepine Information
Coalition.
Nicole Cole founded theWithdrawal Project of the
Intercompass Initiative and sheplays a key role in marketing,
distribution and outreach forthe documentary Medicating
Normal.
She is also recognized for hercontributions to the Moudsley
Deprescribing Guidelines, acomprehensive resource for the
safe reduction ordiscontinuation.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Oh, shoot, I don't have mine nearby.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
You have a copy with all kinds of notes.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Oh girl, I'm a deprescriber.
I live off of this manual.
I don't sleep with it quite yet, but I got damn close.
Here's mine.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Oh, you do.
Look at you.
There you go.
Look at you.
Yes, I love it.
Mark Horowitz would be so proud.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Oh gosh, Jen's got better tabs than I do on this
thing.
I tab.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Everything it's fine, it's okay, it's not crazy.
All right, mollet's LeavesGuideline.
This is our resource guys forsafe reduction of
discontinuation ofantidepressants benzos,
gabapentinoids, z drugs yourBible for those of us that are
(02:06):
deprescribers or working withpeople who are going through
withdrawal.
I'm going to add that right inthere.
Okay, nicole recentlycontributed to the American
Society of Addictions MedicinesPeople with Lived Experience
panel.
She helped develop the USbenzodiazepine deprescribing
guidelines, which was a projectfunded by the FDA, and
additionally she works as acoach for individuals navigating
the process of discontinuingpsychiatric medication.
She does that through the TaperClinic with Dr Yosef.
Shout out to Dr Dr J.
We love you.
Welcome to the show, nicole.
I just ad-libbed a lot of thatbio, so I hope it's okay.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Yeah, totally Okay, you did great Do you sleep?
I want to know I was saying Ineed to quit some stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I think, yeah, you got to.
She's like I had to quit someshit.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Like, yeah, there's a lot of shit on there, I don't
know, if you sleep, I don'tthink you get any sleep, because
this is a lot of advocacy here,a lot of advocacy and mental
tasking.
And, by the way, I just want tosay thank you for everything
you're doing, for this reallyhurt community, because I also
(03:02):
know that you're part of it andJen and I are too.
So, and I also really want tosay thank you for this.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, well, that's all, mark, really.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, oh yeah, but you're part of it.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
You're in it girl.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, so thank you for being part of that wonderful
, necessary uh book that we allneed in this community.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
So thank you so much Well, and thanks to you guys too
, for, you know, getting thebook wanting to, you know, be on
the right side of history,really, so yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Because I do, Because we've been on the wrong side of
history for a long time andalso being part of history for a
long time.
With that being said, westarted this whole episode off
with have you been gaslit byyour own medical advice?
And I think that is a verystrong place to begin with your
(03:58):
history.
So would you mind sharing withus how you were gaslit by your
own medical advice?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah.
So I mean, before I tookpsychiatric medications I went
to PA school.
I was training to be a PA andwhen I started taking
psychiatric medications I was inPA school and moving into
graduating and starting toseeing patients and, I think,
(04:27):
being trained as any medicalprofessional.
I think it's just kind of bakedinto your education.
Before we came on I looked upthe definition of gaslit because
I want to be careful Like Idon't think I try to think back
about when I was practicing andseeing patients.
Did I ever have some motivationto be?
(04:50):
Well, if we look at thedefinition of gaslight making
someone dependent on theperpetrator or grossly
misleading someone for your ownadvantage I don't think it's
that so much with physicians andPAs and nurse practitioners and
medical providers, as much asit is just how we're taught and
(05:11):
like ignorance.
And when I say how we're taughtI mean, like you know, in our
training it's like, well, lookout to see if your patient is a
malingerer, you know, look outto see if your patient is maybe
using more than they're supposedto of their medication or if
they're lying to you, you know.
(05:32):
So you're you're kind of liketrained to be suspicious of your
patients and I think that comesout in how providers then go
into practice and treat people.
Also, though, you know you'retrained into using these
medications.
Psychiatric drugs is what we'rereally talking about today, but
(05:53):
other medications do, and therewas a ton of focus on how safe
and effective they are and youknow what they treat, but not a
lot of criticism or looking atlike the downsides of medicine
or how do we get people off ofthem when they're harming people
or not working.
There was very little, if any,focus on that, so I wanted.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
That's what I wanted to.
I wanted to ask you about that.
You're the first, like PA, thatwe've had here on the show, and
we've had other individualsthat have talked a little bit
about this same kind of idea.
So this is not something thatformally education-wise for you.
You received or was there anyawareness on here's how you put
(06:37):
them on, but here's what youhave to know to get them off,
and I'm not talking like thetraditional let's do every other
day for a couple of weeks oryou know, let's, let's remove
one and we'll add another one,Like all of the things that are
typical, like was there anyformal education you received on
?
Here is how you safely getsomeone off of these.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
No, absolutely zero.
Yeah, none.
You know there's the typicalstandard like side effects and
you know, look out for sideeffects.
But again I think that I meanwe can be gaslit by language,
like you know oh, it's so justthis little thing over here on
the side, you know where.
(07:22):
The term I think we should beusing is adverse effects, things
that are, you know, bad or butit's not this like little thing
on the side.
Sometimes adverse effects arereally bad for patients, you
know.
So it was kind of like thisminimized thing.
Oh well, it might cause someside effects, but you know no
big discussion on like howmedications can go horribly bad
(07:46):
for people sometimes, how to getthem off safely, what
withdrawal symptoms could happen.
I mean, you know, you know thatbenzos, if you abruptly
discontinue them, can causeseizures.
But that was kind of the extentof you know the training.
Really.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, benzos are like the only one, the only
classification that we talkabout in those terms, your
standard SSRI, snri is notreally it's like don't go cold
Turkey, but it's because itmight be bad for you, not
because you might have a seizureand die.
So there's.
You know, the benzodiazepinehas that, at least has that huge
(08:25):
warning, you know, whereasother classes don't have those
huge warnings.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
It's not like the SSRI say you could have
akathisia and then unalivingthoughts and end your life,
which is very reality, butthat's not part of it, right?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
That's not something that you see on the SSRI, like
withdrawal yeah Well, there'seven you know professionals in
this space who I work with, whomean well, who you know are
totally a hundred percent in onthe benzo issue.
You know, they know thatthey're causing physical
dependence and withdrawal andsevere suffering, but they you
(09:00):
can't get them to come in.
On the antidepressant thingthey're like, oh you know, so we
switched them to anantidepressant and I'm like, no,
you know, how can you not?
But you know, some people justkind of like, meet you halfway
and that's as far as they'rewilling to come and it's I don't
think it's again like some deep.
(09:20):
You know they're trying to keeppeople stuck under their care,
but they just don't know.
You know they're trying to keeppeople stuck under their care,
but they just don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
You know, I want to say I don't.
I don't think that.
I don't believe that, jen, andI think that either.
Um, what I think is is that alot of people are left in
slumber, um, and they, when theysee the iatrogenic harm that's
caused, like they dismiss it orthey're not looking at it as
that because they're trained tothink like a pill is going to
(09:48):
fix this thing.
So I'm going to find the bestone for this patient.
I can't say a hundred percent ofthe time that you know, but,
but Jen and I have talked a lotabout manipulative language and
things like that.
That that we've said and donein our practices and along the
(10:08):
way, and I think that happens alot.
And again, the intention isn'tto harm.
The outcome could be harm, butI don't know that the intent.
I don't think.
I know that I did notintentionally go in to cause
anybody harm.
I know that I did notintentionally go in to cause
anybody harm.
I would say things to make surethey were compliant, because
(10:29):
those are words that we used inthe space as compliance and
things like that.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Yeah or oh, that patient is non-compliant.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Non-compliant, yeah, non-compliant.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
As if you're like the overlord of their decisions and
care Overlord.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Well, here's the thing, nicole, and I'm curious
to know your opinion on this.
So, all right, we've hit aspace within this where, okay,
there is research that is outthere.
It's been there for quite sometime.
Okay, it's not like this is abrand new thing.
(11:20):
There are enough peoplespeaking out.
There is enough information outthere.
The part, I think, about thisthat bothers me the most, and
I'm not sure what?
I agree Terry and I are notsitting here going.
All physicians or prescribersare are bad people and are going
in this with like to to harmtheir patients.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Right, we know that that's not happening, right,
okay, but there's a lot of egodriven in the some of this
there's there's a shit.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
there's a shit ton of ego Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
There's specialties were surgeons.
Yes, yes, sorry, sorry Sorry,but but they're better with the
ego.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
My issue is here's the biggest problem that I have
is, if you're, the basis of whatyou do is so there's so much
academia behind it, there's somuch research behind it.
There's I mean, y'all didn'tget into this field and wake up
one day and go, oh okay, I'vegot advanced degrees.
Get into this field and wake upone day and go, oh okay, I've
(12:08):
got advanced degrees and I spenta shit ton of time doing that,
okay.
So how is it that, with theinformation that we have now,
you're not even in a space, orpeople are not even in a space
to get curious, just get usedwhere?
What happened to beinginquisitive within some of this
process, because that's how yougot to where you were in the
first place the basis of whatyou do, what happened to being
(12:28):
inquisitive within some of thisprocess, because that's how you
got to where you were in thefirst place the basis of what
you do is heavily rooted inacademia and in research.
So now all of this is there,but that is easily dismissed.
That's the part that I can'twrap my brain around is the idea
that I'm a physician, I'm aprescriber and I can't go just a
little farther to read aboutthis, to actually pick up a
(12:51):
manual that has 19,400references in it of things that
are research-based, a good chunkof them that are rooted in
academia.
But I can't, I won't even lookat that.
That ignorance, that level ofignorance, is where, then?
I believe that, to me, isiatrogenic.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Yeah, I say all the time like it's.
It's forgivable to have notknown, because the system is set
up for people not to know,right Like the training isn't
there, although I do meet someyounger psychiatrists now who
were like, oh yeah, this was inmy program, so it may some
things may be changing since Iwent to school, but it's
(13:32):
understandable if you weretrained to not know or you
weren't given the information.
But it's really unforgivablefor your for you to deny when
your patient comes in and saysthis is happening to me and
here's this information, here'sthis book, here's this, you know
all these articles and etcetera, and for you to still dig
(13:53):
in your heels and like so hugewhy, why?
not get curious, right?
Well, if you know what it'slike and this is going to sound
like an excuse and I don't wantit to, because there is no
(14:16):
excuse when patients are beingharmed but like to work in, you
know corporate medicine and youhave 10 minutes and they're
sending you bulletins once amonth saying if you don't speed
up your time and be moreefficient and see more patients
and oh, by the way, yourdictations are 72 words too long
.
You know, hurry up, hurry up,hurry up.
(14:37):
It's not a good system to beable to have a ton of extra time
to sit, and I mean this is aproblem that takes like I don't
think I became a so-calledexpert in it until I sat down
and really like, studied andlearned and devoted my life to
it and you saw the size of thatpurple textbook.
(14:58):
Like most physicians and medicalpeople who are learning things
are doing it selfishly becausethey need CMEs, right, so
they're going to pick somethingthat has something attached to
it that gets their CME creditsmet, and so one thing maybe we
can do is try to get CME orsomething assigned to these
(15:19):
topics so that maybe people willchoose, you know, to learn
about this because there'ssomething in it for them.
I also think that there'scognitive dissonance at play,
like we're asking people toaccept that they've been
practicing in a way that'sharmful and that's really hard
(15:40):
to do for anybody.
You know, with any topic, tosay like you were wrong, you
have to admit that and also youmay have been harming people,
you know.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I think because that there's an assumption of
intentionality there.
You know, like I have not, Ihave not been harming people
because we're defending theintention, right, like I am not
a harmful person, I haven't doneit, instead of saying you know
what.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Unintentionally, maybe I did you know, and then
getting really curious aboutthat.
That's what Jen and I havetalked about.
Like unintentionally, we'veharmed people, yes, you know.
And now there's no forgivenessif we keep doing it.
That's the thing.
Yeah, once you know, you can't.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Yeah, and so you know , sometimes also, people are
like burnout and I'm already,like you know, strapped for time
and all these patients andtheir problems, and now you want
me to like learn something newand change everything.
And it's just like you know, Ithink't.
Why aren't providers curious?
And I think some of it is justwell.
(16:58):
Like I said, we don't, theydon't have the time to be.
But also a lot of people andmyself included in this, when I
went to school, like I wasreally good at memorizing things
and I was super book smart andI wasn't, I wasn't critical or
somebody who like questioned,and so people who are by nature,
(17:19):
I always try to ask them, likehow did you become so?
Like, look behind the curtain,is that just how you've always
been?
Because I just studied, read,regurgitated and did well and
was naive and believed what Iwas being taught.
Maybe because I grew up in amedical family and, like you
(17:41):
know daughters and their dads.
So I thought, oh, my dad is adoctor and he helps people, and
so my sense of medical care wasdoctors always help, they never
harm.
And so I just naturally trustedand thought all these doctors
are training me, they're givingme the right information.
(18:02):
I had no freaking idea thatthere was like this dark side to
really much of anything.
I mean, when I got harmed, thisis what I said to my dad I'm
going to go to the FDA and tellthem and the drug companies and
he just like cackled in my facelike what you know like.
(18:22):
But that's how naive I was.
I really thought that theseinstitutions would like give a
shit that this was happening.
You know, this was happening.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
That's interesting because you're talking to fellow
rule followers.
Anyways, me, I don't know aboutJen, but it's kind of the same
thing Give me the informationand I take the information.
It wasn't until the last Idon't know, maybe 10 years that
I started getting reallyinterested in this, but I do
remember in undergrad, which wasa long time ago for me, we had
(18:54):
to take a class called criticalthinking.
It was a class we had to takeand now that's not there anymore
and I'm like bring it back.
Please bring that class back.
We need to have access to thatinstead of some of these other
things that you're required totake.
But when you were describing it,I used to play the flute.
Okay, I played the flute foreight years, all right, but I
(19:21):
played the notes, right, Iplayed the notes as they were on
the sheet, right?
Exactly like that.
And I would always look at thepeople that could just sight,
read or or play by ear or do allthese things, and wonder how,
how can you do that?
Because I'm so rigid in the waythat I play and the way that I
(19:41):
think you know and I'm.
To me, that was the example oflike, like, yeah, it's like
somebody who can play life byear and can pick up on things
that other people can't pick upon, who are just book smart.
Not just because that's a bigdeal, too, to be book smart, but
just reading the sheet music,reading the notes, playing the
(20:01):
notes as they're written and notdeviating from that at all is a
difficult thing to do foracademics.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Well, especially I mean some of it is probably like
genetics or how you were raised.
If you raised in a house thatyou were like everything is
classic.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
But you know, I think we can all.
We can change how we were,especially when you have a big
learning experience.
You know, my grandmother usedto always say mother experience
teaches a valuable lesson.
My grandmother used to alwayssay mother experience teaches a
valuable lesson, but she chargesa hefty fee you know it's so
(20:40):
true, I like that, but you getexperience and then you can do
and be different.
Like I am so much morecritically thinking and curious
now, and one of the people thatI interviewed on Medicating
Normal's YouTube channel hername's Margaret Heffernan.
She has a brilliant TED Talkabout a concept called willful
blindness, where people arewillfully blind to things.
(21:04):
You know, terrible things camefrom people being willfully
blind and when I asked her inthe interview, like how do we
not be that way?
And she was like well, everyoneis and you're gonna be, and
like because it's just human.
But you can start listeningmore to friends or people in
(21:28):
your circle who are questionerslike, who are talking about
things away from the norm, andinstead of just automatically
dismissing them, like startgetting curious and looking into
what they're saying becausethey might be onto something.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah, or away from your norm, right Like just
talking differently about thesame subject, right Like really
listening to understand thatperson deeply?
You don't have to agree withthem.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah.
And some of them, I mean theystill may be tinfoil hat weirdos
at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
I still want to know why like why?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
why are you wearing a tinfoil hat?
So, nicole, you you mentionedthe comment about your dad and
how, when you came to somerealizations that were happening
for yourself from thepsychiatric harm, that was done
right.
It was like, well, I'm going togo to the FDA and I'm going to
like, like, don't you peopleknow?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
a little bit off of that.
I was going to call Pfizer andbe like hell, yeah, you're
fucking people up.
Right.
Don't you know that this drugis dangerous, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I mean, okay.
So in your, when I was readingyour bio, one of the first
things that I have to ask herabout is and then you mentioned
this right.
So when I see the FDA, not onlyas a consumer, okay and as
someone who has been harmed bypsych meds, but also helps
people get through deprescribing, off of psych meds, right, I
(22:55):
see those three letters and Iget real pissed off.
Okay, lots and lots and lots ofthings anger me when I see that
.
Now I'm curious about the factthat you are working on a
project that was funded by theFDA, the US Benzodeprescribing
(23:16):
Right Project, correct?
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Okay, tell us a little bit about that and
whether or not what you'rewilling to share with that and,
if there was some hesitation todo that, if it was something
that you know, just based off ofthe harm that's happened to you
, how do you trust those threeletters and work hand in hand
with them, doing a project withthem?
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Yeah.
So they I mean the FDA wasn'tanyone that we actually met with
, although they were involved.
You know they put up the money,but I didn't ever hesitate to
do the project.
I mean, I just felt like goingin, I had measured expectations,
I knew, okay, this is amainstream medical society, the
(23:58):
American Society of AddictionMedicine, who got the grant.
They are only going to move,but so much, you know.
But if I can show up with allthese other patients and they
are nice enough to have thispanel, you know I was skeptical.
Like are they just checking thebox?
Like we had a patient panel andthey're not going to listen to
(24:19):
us, you know.
And on some things they didn't,but they did listen, quite a
bit actually, and they tookfeedback from us and they
changed lots of things to wherethe guidance was way better than
it would have been had we notattended.
And also shout out to all thepeople who filled out the public
(24:41):
commentary portion when theguidelines were up for public
comment.
I think that helped quite a bitas well.
So are the guidelines perfect?
No, maudsley is much better.
So if anybody asked me, I'd sayjust buy the purple book, you
know, yeah.
So are the guidelines perfect.
No, maudsley is much better.
So if anybody asked me, I'd sayjust buy the purple book, you
know.
But there's, you know, there'sstuff in the ASAM guidance paid
(25:02):
for by the FDA that makes mewant to rip out my hair, you
know.
Like try antidepressantsinstead, because they're safer.
I mean, I can't tell you howmany times I went back and forth
with them because they're safer.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I can't tell you how many times I went back and forth
with them.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Yeah, I said please define safer.
What do you mean by this?
You know I fought and fought, Itried to get them.
But again it's like you have tokind of accept and know who
you're working with but alsoknow that if you can just make
it better and move the needle abit like it's still good and
somebody now can take thisdocument and say here's this
document by the ASAM.
(25:39):
It's endorsed by 10 or nine oreight other medical societies in
the US.
It says right here that you'renot supposed to cut me off my
benzo, you're supposed to let metaper at% to 10% a month.
It's still going to get peoplewhat they need eventually, which
I think is support in theUnited States for coming off
(26:00):
benzos slowly.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
So yeah, I think from a consumer level, though,
there's such mistrust now whenyou've been harmed.
There's such mistrust in theFDA, in big pharma, in your
prescribers, like any insight onhow to bridge that, to kind of
get what you need regardless ofthat mistrust.
(26:24):
Because if you're just livingin mistrust, then you're not
moving your own needle at alleither, and there's so much
mistrust and anger and fear andall of that in this resentment
and all the things in this group.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Resentment's a bitch.
It is.
I'm in it right now.
It's horrible because, then youcan't.
Even even when you try to takeadvice, even if it's just
general medical advice oranything, right, there's such a
twist to it that you're justlike, nope, I can't, I can't.
So then you actually stopdiscontinuing other things or
ideas that might actually berelevant and applicable and
(26:58):
helpful to you.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Right, Because of who it's coming from yeah, you have
to constantly be checkingyourself.
I think anybody who's beenharmed in the way that I have
has medical trauma.
That's normal.
You're going to be traumatizedby what's happened to you, you
know, especially if you had thishorrible health crisis and
(27:19):
everybody you met with told youit wasn't real, it wasn't
happening, you know, and you hadnowhere to turn.
That's the most awful positionto be in.
But you know, I kind of laughnow because when I go into new
medical providers, like it sayson my chart occupation physician
assistant.
So I think when I come in theythink like I'm going to be one
(27:41):
of them or whatever, and thenthey realize like oh, here's
this difficult, noncompliantperson here.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Tinfoil hat wearing PA yeah it's got that tinfoil
hat on.
I'm like surprise.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yeah, but I'm not what they expect and a lot of
them don't like me, you know,and I don't care, Because
through what's happened to me Irealized like I am a consumer of
medicine, I can spend my moneyin finding care that is
collaborative and that you knowmeets my needs.
(28:17):
And if you're going to be thatoverlord person in our
relationship, I don't want it,you know I'll leave, You're
fired and I'll find somebodybetter.
So I think you have to kind ofknow that that's the landscape
of medicine, at least in theUnited States.
You know we don't have like theNHS where you have to deal with
(28:38):
government.
So that's one of the upsides ofthe US health care system,
which is totally not that great,you know.
But still you get to pick whoyou see, and I think you can
also do your own research, Likeyou're responsible for your own
health care, and I know that'shard for people because they
(29:01):
want to just be able to like.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
As therapists, we say that to our clients all the
time they're like what do?
You mean we're responsible,that's why we're seeing you.
No, actually you're responsible.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah, I mean you know your own self best.
You're the one living in yourbody.
Yep, you have to take ownership.
And I know that sucks, because,yeah, I used to be somebody who
wanted to just walk in and say,here you go, fix it, you know,
but that's how I got.
Injured is just by blindlytrusting and trying to hand over
my agency to somebody else andlet them do whatever they
(29:34):
thought was right.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
So that's the buzzword of the show agency.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Almost every study go search and see if there's a
support group for the thing thatyour doctor's trying to get you
to take.
If there is, what are thesepeople complaining of?
Then make a risk benefitassessment for yourself.
Is what I have bad enough thatI'm willing to risk this, that
(29:57):
and the other?
All of medicine is risk benefit.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Everything can harm, nicole tell us a little bit
about what happened to you inthe psychiatric community.
Give us a little bit of thatstory.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
You mean, like when I got prescribed and how I was
treated.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, you started to talk about it.
And then we do what Terry and Ido best and we derail and just
jump in, but you started yourstory about being in school as a
PA, and that was yourintroduction to psych meds.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, so the first psych med med I took although I
didn't realize it was a psychmed was zyban, which was for
smoking, but it's really wellbuterin repackaged, you know, um
, because I wanted to quitsmoking.
I figured, oh, if I'm gonna bea PA, like, I've got to leave
behind this college cigarettething that I started, you know,
(30:51):
um, and I don't remember anyharm from that one, although,
you know, at the time I was sonaive it could have changed my
mood or done something and Ididn't pick up on it, but I
wasn't on it long.
And then, when I graduated PAschool, I think what a lot of
people experience is kind ofimposter syndrome.
Like I'm 20 something years old, I have these people's lives in
(31:13):
my hands.
I just went to school, but Idon't have a ton of like
experience other than myclinical rotations.
And now I just have to, like goout there and do this, like
start practicing medicine, youknow.
And so I had anxiety at work and, you know, stress from starting
.
That I also think, if I'm beingtotally honest looking back, I
(31:37):
was still 20-something, so nottaking the best care of myself,
you know.
And you know staying up toolate and having beers on the
weekends with friends and stufflike that.
So I wound up on Xanax and itwas prescribed to me by one of
my colleagues, actually at theclinic that I was working at,
just very casual, nonchalant,like take it as needed.
(32:01):
You know, it's great foranxiety.
What you have is anxiety, and Ithink it turned on me quickly,
as short-term benzos often do,where people start to get more
anxious.
So having something calledintradose withdrawal, where the
drug's wearing off and you'rebecoming super anxious but you
don't attribute it to themedication, you just think like
(32:21):
what's wrong with me?
I'm becoming like this neurotic, you know I can't relax.
And that's when I enteredpsychiatry.
Xanax made me suicidal thinkingsometimes, and so that scared me
and I was like depressed, andso I was like, oh, I better see
a psychiatrist.
You know, I thought I washelping myself, because that's
(32:44):
how we frame mental health Idon't even like that word in,
you know, in our societies likeget help.
You know, going into theseinstitutions is helping yourself
, it's healthy.
And so that's what I thoughtand I I entered into psychiatry
and for the next five years Ibecame a victim of polypharmacy.
(33:08):
I was drugged nearly to death.
I was drugged nearly to deathsix psych meds at once.
Two of them were benzos and onewas the Z drug sleeping pill,
all of which work, you know,nearly the same.
So I was on three of the samedrugs, basically Adderall, which
also makes no sense when you'regiving somebody all these
(33:30):
downers and now you're givingthem speed.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
My brain was Well sure it does you need it for the
symptoms caused by the otherones?
Yeah, it makes total sense.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
And then you need to sleep aid because of the
stimulant and all the other shitthat you're on.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah, and then, remeron, because I lost tons of
weight on Adderall, and then Iparked in front of the fridge
and was eating cold chickenbones and jello at three in the
morning in bed.
You know that whole side effectthing, Seroquel for sleep,
which you shouldn't beprescribing antipsychotics to
(34:05):
people for sleep Off label,Nicole, it's fine yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
All the time.
That is all the time.
And kids, kids get Seroquel forsleep all the time.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I cannot tell you how many clients I have that.
That is the exact trajectory ofhow Seroquel was entered into
their treatment plan.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
So here I am on all these meds.
I'm sicker than ever and Istarted to not be able to
function at work anymore.
To not be able to function atwork anymore, I was agoraphobic
because I was so tolerant andintroduced to the benzos that I
started being unable to likeleave my house.
My neighbor would ring thedoorbell and I would run
upstairs and hide from fear andhad no idea why I was doing that
(34:45):
, like I was just driven by fearbecause these drugs had stopped
working and I was gettingrebound.
You know terror and anxiety.
And my dad, bless him read anarticle in Outside Magazine by
Matt Samet, who's a famousclimber who had benzoinjury, and
he wrote his story in amainstream magazine.
(35:08):
And my dad just happened to bea subscriber to Outside and he
gave me the story and I read itand at first I was like you know
I'm tired, you know I don'twant to be told that.
I kind of I rejected it atfirst, like here's somebody who
doesn't understand my mentalillness.
(35:28):
You know, because I was boughtinto that Every time I would go
to the doctor and complain ofthese things, the messaging I
was getting was your mentalillness is getting worse, you
have treatment resistant, thisYou're going to have to manage
your mental health for the restof your life, et cetera.
A very terrible message, ahopeless message, really.
(35:50):
But then eventually I sat withthat more and I'm like this guy
like speaks my language.
He described everything I'mfeeling and then it just like
instantly switched.
I was like I'm being fuckingpoisoned and I need to get off
of this shit.
Like holy crap, you know.
And then I went into a detoxcenter, which was the second
(36:14):
stupidest mistake I ever made,because more medical advice told
me oh, you're on benzos, yougot to go to a rehab, because
most medical providers don'tunderstand the difference
between physical dependence andaddiction.
So when I asked for help withbeing on all these psych meds
(36:37):
because benzos and Adderall werein the picture they just
assumed that I was an addict.
And I remember questioning atthe time and maybe this is a
lesson for people when you'retalking about, like, how to
navigate healthcare I had a gutfeeling and I ignored it.
And the gut feeling was howdoes this make any sense?
Every single person who sees apsychiatrist has to go to rehab.
(36:59):
Like that is something's notadding up, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
But I was scared of having a seizure and I thought
oh, I need somebody to overseemy care, so I'll just go there
and whatever.
It'll take 30 days, I thinkthat's what we're told about it.
Sometimes more than like you'rean addict because you're on
benzodiazepine, it's more of youneed a medically supervised
detox thing, which still is toofast.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
It's too fast.
It's so fast, they do it in aweek and then send you home.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
I was going to say, were you there a year, nicole?
Speaker 3 (37:31):
No, and the amount of shit I was on, it would have
been way longer than a year.
Oh sure.
If.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
I would have done it properly, oh sure.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
But no, no, and I was gaslit all to hell in that
place too.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
So all of the psych meds that you were on were
discontinued within a week nothey kept the ones that, or just
.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah, so the ones they put in the bad addictive
category, they rip you off ofthe ones that are in the good
medicine category, like Seroquel, they'll keep you on.
Remeron, they keep you on, okay.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Yeah, but they don't understand.
That's what I mean.
It was the Benzo.
These also cause physicaldependence and withdrawal Right.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
And then they added more Gabapentin.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
When I was in there, they added huge doses of
gabapentin, yeah, so the benzois what you were taken off of
the benzo and the stimulant yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Two benzos, ambien and Adderall all got essentially
cold turkey in a week, oh mygosh.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Well, you said I was gaslit all to hell during that
time.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, explain that, if youwould.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
You know I'm pacing up and down the halls and my
feet are bleeding.
And from akathisia, and theyhad given me a little Dixie cup,
as they do in those places ofeffects or, you know, because
that's the treatment.
Oh, you're anxious.
So now you need an SNRI insteadof it's withdrawal.
And I took that one dose of itand it like imploded my nervous
(39:06):
system.
I had vertigo, that was I can'teven put words to the vertigo
that I had.
It felt like somebody put mybed up on a stilt and just spun
it in a circle.
You know, put my bed up on astilt and just spun it in a
circle, you know.
And I was had akathisia.
I was pacing, my skin wasburning and I was saying like,
help me, you know I can.
Something horrible is happening.
(39:30):
And the next day they came backto my room with another little
cup of Effexor again and saidyou're not being compliant with
your care.
You're never going to getbetter if you don't take your
medicine.
You know you don't want to getbetter.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Oh, that that you don't want to get better yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
And and also those places are very 12 step.
You know, that's their model.
Everybody has to read the bigbook and all of this, which was
totally irrelevant to my.
I wanted off of all of thatcrap badly, I didn't want to
take it at all.
And all these other peoplearound me had, you know, true
(40:03):
addiction problems where theywere really struggling with, you
know, avoiding use of asubstance.
And they would say to me likeyou know, read chapter four in
the big book.
You're struggling withsurrendering or whatever.
And I would just be like whatis this place?
How did I wind up in this place?
(40:25):
They're going to kill me.
And so I wound up calling afriend and was like get me out
of here before I die.
Essentially, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
That's because there are no detoxes and long-term
really rehabs and things likethat for this type of issue.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Um, yeah, I mean, we found one actually in florida
that does an outpatient benzotaper program associated with
their rehab.
I don't know if they're stillopen, but yeah, I mean that mean
that's the state of affairs,One that we've come across.
That knows, you know.
But maybe things with this newguidance from the ASAM will
(41:05):
change.
I don't know.
I don't know how the rehabindustry is regulated as far as
you know, can they not?
Well can they get in troublefor now, if the standard of care
is tapering, you know?
but that was give the grimstatistics that like only 5% of
people succeed in those placesor something and they cost, you
(41:42):
know, hundreds of thousands ofdollars.
But that actually was one ofthe complaints of the patient
panel for the ASAM benzoguidance was.
There's a chapter in there thatsays if the person, if the
patient's withdrawal isdifficult or extreme, you know,
(42:02):
send them to an inpatient unitand we're like they're not going
to help, they're not going toknow what to do and they're just
going to rip them off.
And maybe the reason why thewithdrawal is difficult for that
patient is because the providerthey're seeing has been going
too fast.
So in that case you don't justgo to rehab and rip them off.
And we know providers are goingto want to take that exit like,
(42:25):
oh, you're difficult, Go torehab because they don't want to
have to deal with it.
You know, instead of youprobably need to up dose, you
know, get stable and then taperslower and use one of these
other techniques.
So that, yeah, we complained alot about it, but it's still in
there.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
So when you got out, your friend came got you.
At that point the benzos, thestimulants were out of your body
and you were on what SSRIs?
Snris at that point, yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
I was still on Remeron Gabapentin, and then
they had added.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Trazodone as well.
Okay, oh, help you withsleeping that night, or what?
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yeah, that was the intention.
It wasn't working.
So what'd you?
Speaker 2 (43:10):
do.
What happened then, nicole?
Tell us about how you got yourway through this, to the end of
getting off of these drugs,about how you got your way
through this to the end ofgetting off of these drugs.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Yeah, so I moved in with my elderly grandmother, who
had no business trying to takecare of somebody in akathisia.
But we were all in my familyfrantically trying to help me.
We had no idea this couldhappen.
When I went into the place weall thought, oh, I mean, I had
told my job, like, I'll be backin a couple weeks, that was my
plan.
So that's how naive I was towhat was about to happen to me.
(43:43):
I never made it back to thatjob.
My dad had to, you know, godown and pack up my apartment
and move everything home.
So I had to move home.
So I had to move home.
And for four months I stayed inthat state of severe withdrawal
, thinking it's got, you know,it's got to go away soon, not
(44:04):
knowing, oh, you know,protracted withdrawal is real
and it can last for years, youknow.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Kind of another way, you probably didn't even have
those words then.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yeah, I was still.
Yeah, you probably didn't havethose words, yeah you probably
didn't have those words thinkingin the medical mindset.
Like an admission I can make isI went to to benzo buddies and
I read some of these people whowere having symptoms at five and
six years and I was like theseare psych meds, they're probably
mental patients.
Like I don't know if that'sreal, like how could the you
(44:33):
know?
And so apologies, becauseprotracted withdrawal is real
and it does happen and itdoesn't matter.
I mean, you know what?
What is mental patient?
Anyways, one in five people areon these meds in the U?
S, so we're all mental patientsat this point, Apparently.
(44:55):
Yeah, um.
But so I hung on for fourmonths and it was so severe that
I had a suicide attempt, like Iwas, like I can't do this
anymore.
I wound up in the ICU andluckily survived, so I'm happy
that I'm alive.
To anybody who's thinking aboutending their life over psych
med withdrawal, you know, pleasedon't.
(45:16):
It's.
Once you start healing it'sworth it to be here.
I reinstated some benzodiazepineand that was enough to kind of
keep me hanging on.
It didn't fix the injury thatmy nervous system had sustained,
but I was.
I was able to continue to carryon and then I tapered over like
(45:38):
18 months to get off the smallamount of benzo that I added
back to, you know, put some ofthe fire out of the rebound
withdrawal that they hadinitiated Until my nervous
system slowly, slowly, slowlystarted to recover from what had
happened to me and stayed busy.
(46:00):
You know, I feel like a hugepart of healing is having
purpose and helping other peopleand getting out of your own
head, so like I neededdistraction all the time, which
is what my bio is about.
I signed up for so many thingsjust to like survive, you know,
(46:21):
yeah.
And so now I'm here and I stillhave some symptoms left over
from the injury, but it's, youknow, massively better from what
it was.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
I'm curious, and you may not know this question what
did your dad learn from all ofthis In the beginning?
Speaker 3 (46:40):
he was very typical MD, you know, and to his credit,
he did say like I need to beyour dad like and not your
doctor, you know.
But I was looking to him tolike.
Please fix me, help me.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
You both.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
Yeah, at one point I even said like put me to sleep
Because he's an anesthesiologist.
I was just suffering so bad Ididn't care.
Yeah, Like can't you put me ina coma, you know.
But he would.
You know, in the beginning hegaslit me a bunch too.
He'd be like this doesn't makeany sense.
(47:19):
You keep saying it's gettingworse, but the longer you're off
it should get better.
You know.
And when you study withdrawal,you see that it can get worse
before it gets better for lotsof people.
You know, he would say things Ithink in like a very tough love
type of way to try to get me tokind of snap out of it, like,
oh, if you would just get offyour ass and try harder, you
know, would just get off yourass and try harder, you know,
(47:40):
but that was really the firstyear.
And then he got way moreeducated and apologized and just
said, like I didn't realize howsick you were, you know, and I
thought to myself, well, I don'tknow how you couldn't realize
like I was threatening suicide50 times a day.
But it was more about, I think,think that he just didn't want
to accept or, you know, believethat this was possible.
(48:00):
But after that, like, we healedand he has been like my biggest
support and you know I would bedead if I didn't have him in my
withdrawal.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
So yeah, yeah, I think he didn't see it because
your arm wasn't broken.
Yeah, it's an invisible youknow you didn't see a broken
limb or a broken.
You know what I mean.
So when you don't see that andyou just see somebody laying
around or whatever, like howlong are you going to be sick
already?
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Yeah, I mean my stepmom was like we're not going
to handle you with kid glovesand I was like barely're not
going to handle you with kidgloves and I was like barely
alive, like I don't know if Ican do this for another second.
So people said like obnoxiousshit, like that to me all the
time.
Or I'd be like listing offsymptoms and they'd be like I
get that, you know.
And I'm like no, you don't.
Like I'm disabled, you know Ican't function, I'm going to die
(48:53):
, you know I'm not sure I cansurvive this.
So you don't get this, you know.
But even people within thecommunity kind of gaslight each
other too, like because there'svarying levels of withdrawal.
So I noticed that people whohad more mild symptoms would say
things to me and I was.
I mean, at one point I was soill I had bed sores and like
(49:14):
dreadlocks in my hair from notbeing able to get out of bed,
you know.
And there was people who wouldsay like just push harder.
If you put on headphones, youshould be able to fly on an
airplane, you know stupid thingslike that where it's like maybe
that's your experience, butsome people are really severely
(49:34):
ill in this and that's not goingto work Like I think there's
this.
Sometimes it's like think aboutwhat you say first, and this
goes for people practicingmedicine and people supporting
people in withdrawal.
Like people aren't stupid.
If I could have put onheadphones, you know, you think
I wouldn't have just done that.
Like we're gone for a walk inthe sun, like I'm not dumb, I'm
(49:58):
injured, I'm extremely sick, andso it's like we could all pause
and think about, like, what'sabout to come out of my mouth,
you know, and how's that goingto affect the other person?
It doesn't even make any sense,you know.
It's that whole thing aboutlistening to hear instead of to
respond, and so many people justwant to like say something
(50:21):
instead of think about whatthey're about to say to somebody
else.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
And I think, looking at people as if they're not an
outlier, because I feel like somuch of the med harm community
communities looked at.
You know, jen says her storyshe's an outlier, your story
that's an outlier, you know.
And I'm like, well, if allthese outliers exist, how do we
have these big platforms outhere of people who are injured?
(50:47):
You know, so I that's anothergaslighting thing is like it's
your experience.
That's not all the experienceyou know, or most people don't
have that experience.
Well, maybe not.
Maybe maybe there's a lot ofhidden injury that we don't know
about yet because people aren'ttalking about it the way we are
you know, and well to that.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
I say like, well, if it's not in your differential,
you know, you guys know whatdifferential diagnosis means you
have when, when you're aclinician, you start to make a
list of what it couldpotentially be when you're
trying to diagnose somebody.
If you don't even put it on thelist, you're never going to
accurately diagnose it.
So, yeah, maybe you've neverseen it before because it's not
even on your list of things thatyou're looking for.
(51:31):
But that doesn't mean it's notthere.
And even if this is, quoteunquote rare, like by whatever
percentage we define rare, somany people are on these
medications that you know 15% ofpeople taking them is a pretty
big number.
You know it is.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
I always look at big pharma advertising Whenever they
start advertising a newmedication for something like
right now it's TardiveDyskinesia is being advertised.
That used to be very rare withan antipsychotic.
That used to be what it was.
I'm like either there's notthat many people on
antipsychotics or there's morepeople on antipsychotics or
(52:13):
other classifications ofmedications are also causing
these things, and akathisia, Ithink, is often misdiagnosed.
Tardive dyskinesia andakathisia, I think, are you know
they're close cousins.
Yeah, and there's a confusionbetween the two of them.
So I'm thinking that some ofthat tardive dyskinesia stuff is
(52:34):
really akathisia that you'reseeing more and more of in other
classifications.
So I'm like watching intentlywhere big pharma is putting
their money, because whereverthey're putting their money, is
the medication or the sideeffect that's coming out bigger
now than ever before.
So I don't know.
It's just interesting if youjust sit back and listen and
(52:54):
you'll know that it's notoutliers, it's not rare, it's
not.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
If big pharma is putting money into marketing
this thing, it's not rare, andnow there's a pill to treat the
injury from previous pills.
The rare injury, the rare yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
It's not rare if big pharma is soaking tons of money
into it.
You know what I mean.
Like it's not rare.
Well, there was a recent, youknow.
Speaker 3 (53:15):
Wall Street Journal article about benzo harm and the
journalist told me well, we hadmore response to this article
than all articles and she's likethat tells me there's a massive
problem, that we've hadhundreds and hundreds of people
writing in.
We don't get that response.
(53:36):
She says you know from mostthings that we put out, so
something's here.
But she said, yeah, some of theresponses were physicians
saying well, this is so rare,you know, you've made it seem
like it's a regular occurrence.
And she's like well then, whyare some like, why do we get?
massive response from people youknow.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
It's funny because even on social media I'll have,
you know, the random physicianor nurse or whatever, come on
and be like you're, you'recausing these things.
Don't do that to people,whatever.
I just go read the comments.
There's 300 comments of peopleon here and I'm like, and that's
on my small little platform,you know.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
So, like, if you just read, you know and pay
attention.
Like you're saying, thesepeople still deserve to
treatment Like it's iatrogenic.
Even if it's a small populationof people who are having this
really severe adverse reactionlike we have to help them.
You have to be able toaccurately diagnose it and help
them.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Right, you don't just write people off.
Well, if a certain type ofcancer were rare, people would
bend over backwards trying tofigure out how to solve this
rare, rare, rare cancer.
But in the psychiatric world,if it's rare, well it's just
rare.
We're just going to let you beover here in the not, you know,
in the not med harm community,but the um.
(54:58):
I can't think of what it is aresistant community, you know,
you're just resistant.
You know your body's resistant.
We're just going to stick youover there.
You know there's.
There's no call to help therare side effect.
There's no call out.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
It's just like, well, or it's cat, it's categorized
as just part of like the mentalillness as well, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
You know it's categorized.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
As part of that.
We just had Angie Peacock onfrom Medicating Normal and she
talked about that.
She's like, if I end my liferight now, this is what it's
going to be, is I'm just goingto be that harmed PTSD, harmed
vet, right, and that's whatwill-.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
The mentally ill person that took their own life.
Speaker 2 (55:36):
The mentally ill person who couldn't make it,
when in reality that's reallynot what it was about.
But that's what those rareconditions end up being.
We blame it on the mentalillness, when in reality that's
not what is causing all of thisright.
It has nothing to do with themental illness.
Nicole, you weren't somebodywho was a mentally ill patient.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
Yeah, I just had stress at work.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
Yes, yeah, the origin story is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
It is and that's not what it was.
For you right and as you lookat all those years and what went
on, it wasn't somebody who wasseverely mentally ill.
It was a product, a byproductof psych harm, med harm.
Speaker 3 (56:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And I guess then it comes backto how you define mental illness
.
If we're casting the net sowide that we catch everybody,
then sure I was quote unquotementally ill by DSM standards,
because everybody is.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
Everybody is everybody is.
I say that a lot.
You know, we cast a larger net,we catch more fish, and we
catch a lot of fish thatshouldn't be in the net in the
first place, you know so yes,you're, you're 100% correct.
Speaker 3 (56:48):
A lot of what medicine does, that's a, that's
part partly responsible for thisis like that, that old saying
if everything, if you, if allyou have is a hammer,
everything's a nail Right.
So when I went back to mypsychiatrist and I'm in severe
withdrawal, she was like, ofcourse, you feel terrible,
you're mentally ill, you needyour psychiatric medications,
(57:09):
you've stopped treating yourmental illness.
And then I went to the rehabplace and said I'm suffering all
these symptoms so, so bad.
And they say well, you're adrug addict, you're wanting, you
know, to take more medication,you're just craving and all this
.
And so it's like everybody'swalking around with these
hammers and I'm like these areall medical professionals in the
(57:31):
same exact system, but they'reall diagnosing me with different
stuff just based on what theiryou know specialty is, and no
one's listening to what I'mtelling them, which is I'm in
withdrawal from this stuff, youknow.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah, well, that was it.
As we wrap up here, nicole, isthere anything that you want our
listeners to know or anythingthat you haven't talked about?
That is important, especiallyfor those that are going through
this.
Speaker 3 (58:00):
I think, just you know, for anybody who's on these
medications, you know, I wouldsay get curious, you know, read
about them, learn about them,and maybe they're still for you,
you know.
Maybe you come to thatconclusion and that's okay.
But I think we can all, insteadof like like when people are
saying something bad happened tome.
You know one thing, one sort ofexample I like to use is when
(58:26):
Toyota sends me a recall noticein the mail for my car, right,
I'm grateful, I'm like oh crap,something's wrong, the airbag or
whatever.
I better look into this andbelieve it and fix it.
But why, when somebody saysmedication harmed me, are we so
like?
I don't want to hear that story.
(58:46):
And so get curious about like.
Why is that your responseinitially, especially if you're
somebody taking it?
You know like both things canexist at the same time, I think,
where people feel helped bysomething and people are very
harmed too.
So we just need to have moreopen communication and
conversations about this,without being so polarized, I
(59:08):
think.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Great Agree, all right, if you've hung out with
us so far, please make sure youlike, comment, share.
Give us all the stars.
That's all that's necessary,all the stars.
Send us your Gaslit Truth atthegaslittruthpodcast at
gmailcom.
And thank you, nicole Lamberson, for hanging out with us.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
Thanks for having me.
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