May 27, 2025 • 52 mins
Ready to break free from psychiatric medications? The journey isn't simple, but it is possible—and we're here to guide you through the complex reality of medication tapering in this revealing second installment of our deprescribing series.
Many people believe they're destined to take antidepressants forever, a misconception often reinforced by healthcare providers with limited knowledge about deprescribing. The truth? Tapering off psychiatric medications requires a thoughtful, comprehensive approach that extends far beyond simply reducing your dosage.
Think of medication tapering as an ultra marathon rather than a sprint. We recommend allowing 1-3 months of tapering for every year you've been on medication—a timeline that might feel daunting but reflects the body's need for gradual adjustment. Before even beginning to reduce your medication, we emphasize the critical importance of assembling your "taper team"—supportive healthcare providers, knowledgeable pharmacists, and deprescribing specialists who understand the nuances of this process.
Unfortunately, many prescribers resist supporting patients who wish to discontinue medications. If you encounter resistance, remember that healthcare is meant to be collaborative. Just as you wouldn't continue seeing a therapist who isn't supportive, you shouldn't feel obligated to stay with a prescriber who dismisses your tapering goals.
A cornerstone of successful tapering is collecting personalized data through functional lab work. Understanding your unique neurotransmitter levels, vitamin deficiencies, and cortisol patterns provides invaluable insights for creating a targeted support plan. We dive into the foundation supplements that can significantly ease withdrawal symptoms: high-quality omega-3s, methylated B-complex vitamins, vitamin D, magnesium, and probiotics—explaining why each plays a crucial role in supporting brain health during medication discontinuation.
Whether you're just beginning to consider tapering or already on your journey, this episode offers transparent, evidence-based guidance from practitioners who have both professional and personal experience with medication discontinuation. Ready to reclaim your brain chemistry? Let's transform what feels impossible into a manageable, step-by-step process toward medication freedom.
Are you tired of being gaslit and want to DEEP THROAT some more truth? We want to hear from you! Message us your gaslit stories at thegaslittruthpodcast@gmail.com
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Dr. Teralyn:
Therapist Jenn:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Teralyn (00:02):
you've been gaslit into believing that you will be
on your antidepressants foreveror any type of psychiatric
medication.
This is a two part episode andwe're talking about how to taper
your medications.
This is part two.
If you haven't listened, goback to part one, because you're
going to want to combine thetwo.
Therapist Jenn (00:22):
Yes, oh yeah, well, I just had done the last
episode.
Yeah, it came out on.
Yes, oh, yeah, Well, I justinterrupted you.
It was the last episode.
Yeah, it was the last episode.
Yeah, may 20th.
So get your ass back to thatone and listen.
Okay, you continue with theintro.
Dr Teralyn (00:32):
Okay, sorry, we are whistleblowing strength, Dr
Teralyn at Therapist Jen and youare listening to the Gaslit
Truth Podcast.
Welcome to the piece deresistance with medication
tapering.
Therapist Jenn (00:46):
Yeah, Part two.
People, are you ready?
We're on part two of taperingoff your meds.
Dr Teralyn (00:50):
Yes.
So, in case you guys don't know, jen and I help people taper
off medications, along with along list of other things that
we help people do.
But this is kind of thepassionate place that we are in
right now, and so deprescribingis a thing.
So we get a lot of questions,especially on social media how
do I taper my medication?
(01:12):
And I think people want like ashort answer.
They do, they do, which isinteresting, I mean, because we
all want a short solution to themental health issues in the
first place.
I know, but there is not ashort solution to deprescribing
for many.
Therapist Jenn (01:30):
So yeah, it takes a while, and when people
reach out to me and ask me aboutthat, I'm very honest and I'm
like hi, 18 months into thisprocess and that's just the
liquid part.
I did about four months of workbefore that.
So, yeah, it's a marathon.
It's actually like an ultramarathon, or it's the dopey
(01:52):
challenge that you do throughDisney, when you do a marathon,
then a half marathon, then a 5Kand then a blah, blah, blah.
Yeah, that's what this is,people.
Dr Teralyn (02:00):
That's a thing.
I've had people ask me that andI say no because I'm I'm a lot
smarter than that.
Therapist Jenn (02:06):
I can't handle that.
Dr Teralyn (02:07):
It's like I'm not very smart and everything but
that thing is a big, no so so,anyways, that you, you know,
this is like the, don't bechallenged everybody.
Therapist Jenn (02:14):
If you don't know what that is look that shit
up.
It's terrible, but it's a longjourney and it can be terrible
and it can be good, but Terryand I do this for a living.
This is one of the hustles wehave.
We help people do this.
So we're going to talk aboutthe first part of well, part two
actually, but the first pieceof this when deprescribing,
which is this idea of having onehell of a taper team.
Dr Teralyn (02:34):
Yes and wait.
I want to back up real quickbecause as long as we're talking
about timing, I want people tounderstand timing for themselves
.
So the last episode was the 90days before you actually begin
to taper, and so then I thinkit's about having realistic
expectations of time when youactually start the taper.
(02:58):
So that's the warm-up period,warmup period and starting the
taper.
I tell people roughly like thisis a rough estimate one to
three months per every yearyou've been on something.
And that's a rough estimatebecause for some people it's
less, for some people it can bemore, and it also depends upon
(03:19):
the time you're in the taper,like because the last little bit
usually is the hardest and ittakes the longest.
So this is just so you havelike realistic expectations of
time.
And yes, and I know lately I'vebeen getting a lot of women in
their sixties and above um andthey're exhausted and they're
(03:40):
like I just want off, I want mylife back, and when I tell them
one to three months, they're alittle defeated because they
thought it was going to beshorter and easier.
So then they either go well, Iguess I'll just stay on for the
rest of my life, or, yep, I'mready to tackle it.
So that's a rough estimate oftime and I think it's important
(04:00):
for everyone to have a good ideaof what this might be like.
Okay, so, like Jen, you're in.
You said 18 months, so far 18months yeah.
Because you said you started.
Therapist Jenn (04:11):
You know three, four months ahead of time, 25
years on, right.
So for reference everyone, 25years on the medication on and
off, went on and off of it andapparently there's a couple
other SSRIs in there too, that Idon't have recollection of, but
they're in my records, but yes,about 25 years.
So when you put that intocontext, it takes a while and my
(04:32):
story is not everybody's story.
However, what we knowspecifically from SSRIs and
SNRIs is the longer that you areon these medications, the
longer it takes to taper.
In general, that is a prettyblanket statement that I think
is fair to make.
So so it takes a while For somepeople.
Dr Teralyn (04:49):
I will.
I will say that there are somepeople and I don't, maybe
they're just lack awareness ofhow bad it is for them, but who
go off of it quickly and thenthey're done and it's like it
absolutely is not.
Therapist Jenn (05:02):
That's that's.
That's a bitch of this processis.
We want like a quick answer andit all one size fits all, a
little like you put it in thebox and it's not.
And we, I think, asdeprescribing consultants that's
a lot of the coaching workTerry and I do is working
through the psychology behindthat, because it's a hard truth
when you start to go throughthis and you're like, oh my gosh
, I can't go down anymore, Ican't go down, I can't go, I've
(05:22):
got to go back up, I've got toreinstate.
So we'll talk a little bitabout that within this, but the
meat of today is talking aboutjust a few main components of
what happens after the 90-daywarmup.
Dr Teralyn (05:35):
So let's jump into Taper Team and what that is All
right, so Taper Team might looka little different for everybody
, right?
Right, and I think in the inthe beginning phases of building
your team, that your team iswho can support you, and
obviously you're going to needsome type of support from your
(05:57):
prescriber, because jen and Idon't prescribe and we won't
deprescribe you in that way, soyou're going to need to have
your prescriber on board in someway, which is hard, and you
know, jen, you can share alittle bit of your story if you
want to getting your prescriberon board.
It's ridiculous.
Therapist Jenn (06:18):
Statistically it can be, I would say about 25%
of them to 30% of them.
This part's easy right.
They go in, they have theconversation they talk about,
they educate their provider onthis, because most providers
have no idea.
Prescribers don't know whatthis is.
The prescriber says, yeah, okay, I'm willing to look at this
with you and I'm willing to lookat a liquid down the road and
(06:40):
I'm willing to look at that.
Okay, and it's fine.
Then there's a good 70% of thepeople that I work with,
including myself when I startedthis process, where it doesn't
go that way.
Prescribers say no Prescribers.
I was told that's not necessaryand I have great success.
Just pill cutting with myclients, jen, you would have
(07:01):
been institutionalized, and Ialmost was I almost was in this
process.
Dr Teralyn (07:05):
Even on a slow taper .
Therapist Jenn (07:07):
Damn like a couple times.
There's been a couple reallybad times, so that's more common
.
I hear more of that, but forlong and short term.
Dr Teralyn (07:25):
There's one more common thing that has been
popping up is when people goI've had some clients go to talk
to their prescriber about, youknow, deprescribing right, and
they'll share with them the plan, like here's the plan, here's
what I want to do, and thenthey'll walk out with a new
prescription that has nothing todo with the plan.
It has everything to do withwhat the prescriber wanted the
plan to be.
This has happened now two timesin the last two months with
(07:48):
people and they don't realizethat it's the refill right.
So the refill then changes toreflect what the prescriber
wants versus what the clientneeds.
So that can be another battletoo.
So anyway, so these areconversations, they are.
Therapist Jenn (08:06):
I mean, I walked in there with the.
I walked in there with theMaldsley manual and, for those
of you if you're on YouTubewatching this, I walked in with
this manual, this deprescribingguideline, and I sat it in front
of my prescriber after thesecond time of her not wanting
to do this, and I opened to thepages of Lexapro and I went
through this.
(08:26):
I said I want you to look atthis and I'm tapping on the book
like something a mother woulddo, right, because I was so
pissed, because I'm like this isridiculous.
Now for some of my clients youget to that point and you find
yourself a new prescriberbecause, guys, the whole point
of seeing a provider, if youthink about this, the whole
point is to have like anunderstanding and for a provider
to support the clients.
(08:46):
Like that is the whole.
That is what healthcare issupposed to be, is supposed to
be about right.
So you wouldn't go see atherapist and stay with a
therapist who isn't supportingyou.
You wouldn't, you wouldn't, youwouldn't go to an ortho doctor
who is going to do a surgery anddoesn't support at all and
understand, like, where you'recoming from as a client, like
(09:09):
when bedside manner sucks,people leave and they go get a
second opinion.
You wouldn't go see providersthat aren't going to meet you
where you're at, but yet forsome reason in this world of
psychiatry and prescribing, westay with providers who are not
listening to us.
I don't know why the fuck we dothat.
But I'm on my high horse for asecond because it happens.
Dr Teralyn (09:31):
No, but really that is a fascinating conversation.
Find somebody, guys.
Therapist Jenn (09:35):
Providers are a dime a dozen, just like
psychologists and therapists goshop, damn it, shop around
around Well, in part inparticular because most
psychiatric medications aren'tprescribed by psychiatrists To
your general providers, your OBs, your family doctors, your
nurse practitioners, which iswhy I say go to your prescriber,
(09:56):
not to your psychiatrist, causeusually it's somebody, not a
psychiatrist.
Dr Teralyn (09:59):
Go find somebody else.
Therapist Jenn (10:00):
I've had two clients in the last month that
left their prescribers and wentand got a different, and they
were both.
One was seeing an OB and onewas seeing a general medical
family practice doctor.
They went and got new peopleand I went and got a new person
and I'm still in the process andI'm done with that.
I'm still sick of it.
Dr Teralyn (10:18):
So people know it's not always that easy to find
somebody new, but if you need todo that, do that.
This is why building your teamis important.
You do that before you evenstart the taper.
You know who's on your side.
These conversations happenearlier.
Therapist Jenn (10:34):
So you find your taper team which, as Terry was
saying, you build this team,which is not only going to
support people in your life whoare willing to listen to you and
understand what deprescribingis.
One of the things you don'twant to hear someone going
through.
This is well, I know you'rereally struggling right now,
terry, and maybe you need to goback and see your doctor and go
(10:55):
back up on your meds.
That person one needs moreeducation, or two is not someone
to have on your taper team.
These aren't the things we wantto hear.
So you pick people who you caneducate and who are willing to
just like, validate and listenand support you.
That's important.
But then you also need peoplethat are not in your immediate
environment, but your doctors,your prescribers.
That's very important.
(11:16):
Whoever I mean whoever you'reworking with deprescribing on
needs to be a part of your taperteam, like people like Terry
and I.
Dr Teralyn (11:26):
So and also I think I usually tell people to take a
trip to your local compound andyep, this is the next one,
because because I think that'sanother place that we feel like
we don't have a lot of influenceover, because you get it, the
prescription goes in and youpick it up and that's pretty
much the extent of it.
I tell people find a local momand pop compounding pharmacist.
(11:51):
They're everywhere.
The big box ones aren't ashelpful because they're slammed
all the time.
Not saying that the local onesaren't, but I feel like the
local ones are more apt toeducate and listen and whatever.
Go have a conversation withyour compounding pharmacist to
see what the best way to eitherrecompound your medication, make
(12:13):
a liquid form or even possiblyteach you how to make your own
liquid form.
If you don't feel comfortabledoing that on your own, so go
have somebody teach you that.
Therapist Jenn (12:25):
And don't rely on your prescriber to do this.
I made the mistake of that andI think a lot of the people we
see make that mistake.
Once you're at a space ofstarting this process, you can
actually look at what taperingcould look like in terms of a
liquid.
First, you got to find out ifit comes in a liquid.
Is there a dissolvable form?
Are there strips?
(12:47):
There's lots of options thatare out there, most of which
you're not going to know unlessyou have a direct conversation
with the pharmacist.
So that's something that I did.
I had to switch pharmaciesbecause mine was not a
compounding pharmacy.
They didn't have the ability todo it.
The second one I went to did,but they didn't take um, like
good RX programs or programsthat help pay um for some of
(13:10):
these prescriptions, okay.
So I had to go to a differentone because the cost was
astronomical.
So what you got to do is youstart to do that.
You can call around, you cantalk to these pharmacists.
They can tell you that Um.
So what you've got to do is youstart to educate yourself on the
type of drug you have.
Is it a powder?
Is it a pill?
What forms does it come in,because you will have to get to
(13:31):
a space for most of these drugswhere you're going to have to
compound it into a liquid form,which essentially means taking
that drug and it being mixedwith water, which is how they do
this and they compound it themilligrams per milliliter that
are in these drugs.
So that's part of your taperteam, so to not spend too much
time on that, but that's part ofthe team that you got to have.
Dr Teralyn (13:51):
I think they're the most important part.
You have to dial it in beforeyou start and there are options,
guys, even if you don't.
Therapist Jenn (13:58):
Can you pull beads out?
Can you weigh beads?
Can you get yourself a jewelryscale?
Can you shave powder?
Can you mix beads with food?
Yes, these are all options.
You can make your owncompounding liquids.
But this is good research to doon the front end so that you
know what those options are.
Dr Teralyn (14:19):
Well, I think doing that for some people feels way
better than fucking around withyour pills.
Therapist Jenn (14:28):
Like you know like it's such an arduous task.
Dr Teralyn (14:32):
Like it is, it's very tough, and it's one of the
things that I think can stoppeople from moving forward,
because it takes so much effort.
Um.
So if you can outsource thateffort to a compounding
pharmacist, I would say try that.
Therapist Jenn (14:47):
If the drug allows it.
Dr Teralyn (14:48):
Yep, that's what I.
I would be doing that, I woulddefinitely be doing that, yeah.
So I would say, give that, givethat a good try, you know.
So, cause even Jen, you you'vetalked about, even though you do
get your liquid compounded thatsometimes you're like, oh, all
I do is think about the littlesyringes and all this stuff.
Therapist Jenn (15:09):
It's so much on your mind.
I know there's a lot I mean,I'm married to these syringes
that are in all my drawers everysingle night that I have to
like okay, who am I going topick tonight?
Okay, here's your onemilliliter, here's your 10
milliliter, like it's right.
Yeah, so there's a whole.
That's a whole, nother piece toit.
But I think you can workthrough it and sometimes, yeah,
(15:29):
it's a we don't want to go downthat rabbit hole, but yeah, that
was part of part of the mindfuckery that happens.
Dr Teralyn (15:34):
And Jen, are you really having withdrawal,
because you know every time youchange the dose, uh, because
you're you know I want to makethis clear too that you can even
experience some withdrawalsfrom changing forms.
How the, the, the form ofmedication, right, you can also
have withdrawal from the sourceof the drug.
Therapist Jenn (15:57):
So you can go ahead and get one one pharmacy
that uses a certain drug companyand if they switch and use a
different one, or you get on ageneric that's actually made in
another, another drug company,and if they switch and use a
different one, or you get on ageneric that's actually made in
another drug company, you canalso experience adverse
reactions from that.
That is a real thing.
Dr Teralyn (16:12):
Yes, and I think that's something that we don't
talk about enough.
It gets dismissed a lot.
Well, it's the same thing, it'sjust off-brand, it's just a
different color.
Therapist Jenn (16:20):
We just got it from a different manufacturer
Jen, that's the one I've heard.
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
What I'm experiencing is real,is real.
Dr Teralyn (16:28):
So, with that in mind, when someone switches,
I'll just say form.
So if you go from your capsuleor whatever to a liquid form,
you're going to want to stay onthe exact same dose for a while.
Therapist Jenn (16:41):
I always suggest that to people.
A lot of them don't want to,and that's fine.
Dr Teralyn (16:44):
You don't have to Everything is just a suggestion.
No, they want to get started.
I got it and I want to go.
Therapist Jenn (16:49):
But once we get taper team dialed in, then here
comes this idea of the next step, which is and Terry and I are
going to talk about this, butwe're going to give you guys the
kitchen sink.
These are Terry's words and Ilove it, I use it.
She should just like you,should like brand that.
But it's this idea of we'regoing to give you like what
works the most effectively andthere's options within it.
(17:09):
You don't have to do all ofthese things, but damn, if you
do it, you're going to be waymore well prepared.
And we are talking about doinglab work.
We are talking about doing somefunctional medicine work at
this point with functional labs.
Dr Teralyn (17:21):
Yes.
So I like to give people theopportunity to also go to their
doctor again and do.
If you haven't done a physicalexam, like a yearly physical, do
one.
This would be a great time foryou to do that, with all the
labs that come with that.
So your CBC and evencholesterol, do it all, and then
(17:43):
Jen and I will A metabolicpanel, right, micronutrients,
even get your thyroid checked.
So do it all so that we havelots of data, and I talk about
this with people.
So much of this is collectingdata, especially in the early
days.
The more data we have, the moreinformed decisions we can make
(18:07):
around that data.
So if you're coming back andyou've got some micronutrient
problems, or even I'll just sayeven vitamin D like if your
vitamin D is super low you canbe damn sure we're going to be
accounting for that in yourtaper, because that could be the
reason why you feel like shitanyway.
So you don't need more meds.
Maybe you need vitamin D, right?
(18:28):
So these little bits ofinformation can yield really
good results for you when weactually look at them in
functional lab ranges, I'm goingto say because there's a
difference between Westernmedicine within range and
functional medicine, optimizedranges, and there's a big
(18:51):
difference between these twothings.
I'll give the example ofvitamin D for a minute.
So where we live, everyone'slow in vitamin D.
But you know what?
The elderly people in Floridaare super low in vitamin D, as
well, but vitamin D productionalso decreases as you get older.
Therapist Jenn (19:06):
The body produces less because of your
hormones.
Dr Teralyn (19:08):
Yes so, but nobody takes that into account.
So anyway.
So that's why I'm saying this,because even if you live in a
very sunny state all year round,your vitamin D still could be
very low.
So your vitamin D ranges looklike I think it's like 34, 35 is
where they start within range,and it goes up to 100.
(19:28):
That's your within range.
Well, that is a really largerange, but optimizing is like 80
to 100.
So if you're sitting down at 34, 35, and you feel like you've
got low mood, low energy, you'vegot a ways to go to optimize
that vitamin D.
(19:48):
So, yeah, so that is one real,I think, a good example of like
this range is so important, andif you're 34, you're almost out
of range.
Therapist Jenn (20:00):
You are and you might be somebody who actually
does feel so much better.
Right, they say like an optimalrange is between like 40 and 70
or something.
But you may be somebody who youcan be at like 60 or even 65
and you still don't feel well.
So we need to bring you up to ahigher range, um, and we play
(20:22):
around with that because you,you might be out of that that
range.
But that's the difference, asTerry is saying, between like
functional optimal.
I mean we look at optimallevels for people and how they
feel versus here's what a rangesays Thyroids the story of so
many people with thyroid issues.
Right there you talk aboutWestern medicine and the optimal
range Hand raised.
Dr Teralyn (20:42):
There you go, hand raised.
Yes, yeah, because if mythyroid were, I think it goes up
to four or something like that,the TSH.
They'll say well, you're withinrange.
If I was a four or even a three, and sometimes even a two and a
half for TSH and thyroid, Iwould be napping all day, but I
would be told well, you're fine.
(21:04):
That's within range, but that'snot within my range, and so,
again, so much of this is likereclaiming a sense of yourself
and understanding and, oddlythis is so odd when we're
talking about vitamin D it isone of the labs that you
literally have to ask for.
It's not included in a typicalpanel for a physical exam, which
(21:26):
is mind blowing to me becauseit's so important for so many
things, but you have to ask forit.
So, jen and I will give you alist of labs, like the extra
labs to make sure that you havewhen you go to your physician's
office and ask for those, andsometimes they get denied, which
is also weird to me.
Why would you deny someone avitamin D lab, which?
Therapist Jenn (21:47):
doesn't matter, because, guess what?
We got options for you.
Dr Teralyn (21:50):
Doesn't matter, you got 50 bucks, we'll take care of
it for you.
Therapist Jenn (21:53):
Like we will.
Dr Teralyn (21:54):
That's what I ended up doing.
It's not hard, whatever Like itjust.
Therapist Jenn (21:58):
It's not hard to find alternatives.
We'll run the HSA card and herewe go, let's do a lab.
So there are options.
But the other thing to sayabout this, before we move on to
some of the other areas, isthere are options for also
assessing symptoms and how youare feeling.
That if functional medicine anddoing lab work in this way is
(22:20):
not an option for you, okay,because not only can you do it
through your doctor, but, likeTerry was just saying, this is
something that you can dothrough us as well, and we will
put together an awesome reportthat is going to tell you all
the things about your adrenalsand some of your hormones and
your main neurotransmitterpathways right.
(22:40):
Serotonin, dopamine, you know,gaba, glutamate, all the things
right.
We can do that.
Dr Teralyn (22:45):
It's a thing, yeah, Even things like histamine and
glycine.
We can look at all of theseneurotransmitter levels.
These are called functionallabs, and it's interesting
because I get this a lot tooLike well, can't I go to my
doctor and run these labs?
I'm like you can ask them aboutthem, but they're not going to
be knowledgeable of functionallab work.
Therapist Jenn (23:07):
They don't actually know they exist.
Guys, they don't get it.
Yeah, they don knowledgeable.
They don't actually know theyexist, they don't get it.
Dr Teralyn (23:11):
Yeah, they don't, they don't know it, which is
funny, like how do you not knowit?
Therapist Jenn (23:14):
But anyway, I just had a client tell me that
my doctor says you can't measureserotonin and I'm like I pull
out my report and I shake it infront of my camera.
Here, here's mine.
Yes, you can Right, yeah.
Dr Teralyn (23:30):
Yeah, and your cortisol throughout the day,
Like again these are functional.
So when we say functional, Jenand I are not looking for
disease states.
We're looking for how yourbrain and body is functioning.
Therapist Jenn (23:41):
So that's the easiest part.
Dr Teralyn (23:44):
Yeah, because here's the thing.
I'll just say this we can alsodo checklists, which is what Jen
was talking about, like moodchecklists and things like that.
However, the one big thing isthis Low serotonin and high
serotonin have almost the samesymptomology?
Yeah, and also, where is youranxiety coming from?
(24:06):
If you have anxiety, where isyour anxiety coming from?
Where is your anxiety coming?
Therapist Jenn (24:13):
from?
Is it because you have low GABAor high dopamine or?
Dr Teralyn (24:15):
high serotonin or low serotonin, right, all these
things.
Therapist Jenn (24:16):
So if we don't know why, it's very difficult to
(24:43):
direct care in that way.
So, again, the checklists areokay, but they're they're a
little bit the taper team dialedin and you're understanding who
you've got on there.
Then we go to functional labwork or subjective assessment
work going to your doctor,getting some labs done at your
doctor so that we have data, sothat we can actually use some
data to move to the next spaceof this, which is then looking
(25:08):
at what kind of things do weneed to possibly supplement with
yeah, your plan creation, wecreate the plan right.
That lab work can tell you a lotabout which areas also of like
those mental health pillars thatwe talked about in the last
episode we need to focus on.
If you're somebody whosecortisol is not optimized at all
(25:30):
and you are waking up with very, very little cortisol right,
and throughout the day it justkeeps dropping, okay, that's
going to tell us something aboutwhat we need to focus on with
you.
You know, if yournorepinephrine is not converting
to epinephrine because itrequires that to do that right,
then not only is your dopaminechannel messed up, but this is
(25:52):
why sleep looks the way it does,and it's all interconnected,
guys.
Dr Teralyn (25:56):
So then we can actually it's mind-blowing, the
connection when we make it it is, it just is right, so nothing
is siloed in this process.
Therapist Jenn (26:02):
In the world of functional medicine, nothing is
ever siloed, so we look at arethere supplements that could be
helpful?
Are there nutrient deficienciesthat are occurring that we need
to work with viasupplementation via food?
Could amino acids be actuallyhelpful for you at this point,
because your dopamine pathway isnot looking good and we might
(26:25):
need to work a little bit on notonly getting your cortisol in a
good space, but also you mightneed some L-tyrosine to start
kicking that pathway up.
Dr Teralyn (26:35):
It's all interconnected or bringing it
down, like not tyrosine forbringing it, but bringing it
down again.
So this is that piece where, ifwe don't have this information,
we can't create a verycustomized plan for you that
you're going to feel and I tellpeople like you're going to know
(26:56):
when it's right, like you'regoing to know when we have
everything dialed in and correctand with that, like I also
think, the functional lab workthis isn't an advertisement for
functional lab work, but this isI also feel like it's so
important because once we cansee it, then we know exactly
what supplementation for you touse and what's going to hit the
(27:19):
hardest.
Without that information,people get a lot of supplements
just kind of thrown at them andthey don't understand their
reasoning behind.
And so I think that's one ofthe places that Jen and I do
really good work is.
We'll say, like she said,tyrosine.
Tyrosine is really good for thatdopamine pathway.
Remember, your lab work saidyour dopamine looked like this
(27:41):
Tyrosine will help improve thatpathway and you should get a
little bit more giddy up anddrive.
And people then are like, ohokay, that makes sense.
Or let's say, all of yourneurotransmitter pathways are
low, like your big ones like allright, we need to not only
maybe supplement, but improveyour protein intake a lot.
So it gives us just so muchbeautiful information, and I
(28:07):
always talk about this as beingan art form.
This is the art.
This is the art.
And so there's also this piecethat can feel overwhelming and
Jen was talking about thatkitchen sink idea.
So I get a little too giddy anda little too much, and so I'll
create these reports.
Therapist Jenn (28:25):
I was so overwhelmed the first time, the
first report I ever had fromTerry, because I've done all
this guys, I've done this wholething, so everything we're
talking about like kitchen sink,I was like, well, fuck it, I'm
going to do it, but the firsttime.
I actually saw my labs, whichTerry was actually doing a
training for myself and for someof our other colleagues, and
(28:47):
she's like, can I use you as asubject matter?
And I'm like, well, sure, Imean, I haven't seen my labs
anyway.
So let's look at the report.
And I just sat there like openmouth breathing.
I'm like I can't even follow afucking thing she's saying right
now.
Dr Teralyn (29:01):
Okay, but which is hard for me because I'm like I
get so excited about sharing allthe things I overgive clients
information, and then I see thisgloss.
Therapist Jenn (29:10):
Look, when I'm doing consulting, I'm like I'm
giving you way too much shit.
Okay, let's slow down.
But we have the ability to doeither baby steps or here's the
whole kitchen sink.
But the beauty of this is youcan take the whole thing and you
pick the areas you want tostart on.
Take the whole thing and youpick the areas you want to start
on.
And this is super importantwhen you're also looking to
(29:33):
taper your medications, becauseI hate to tell you guys, but
when you start tapering off, itcan change how these levels look
.
It can change how youmetabolize things in your body.
Now, we're not in there to knowall of that, but if we've got
some data that we can use to tryto optimize how we're doing it
and I don't know maybe decreasethe likelihood that you cause
(29:56):
harm to your brain and body orgo through some significant
withdrawal why not?
Dr Teralyn (30:03):
Yes, even just your very basic foundational pieces
of supplementation can be soimportant If you don't want to
go to the next step and use,like amino acid therapy or
whatever, like just those basicfoundational pieces can bring
you so much relief.
Therapist Jenn (30:18):
Let's give people that package the top,
like five or six.
We've talked about this beforewhen it comes to supplements,
supplements, yes.
Dr Teralyn (30:26):
Yeah, Okay, so well, I mean, you can help me out
with this too.
But my non-negotiable numberone I think you're probably
going to know which one I'mgoing to say, my non-negotiable
number one is omega-3 fattyacids.
I didn't want to say it outloud because I'm like we could
not agree on this.
Therapist Jenn (30:42):
but yes, yeah.
Dr Teralyn (30:43):
And that's fine.
We don't have to right.
Therapist Jenn (30:44):
Yes, omegas.
Dr Teralyn (30:45):
No, no, no, but I'm sure our top five are going to
be similar.
If you don't do anything andI'm talking about a super high
quality omega-3 fatty acid, nota buy one, get one free at
Costco because you're not goingto get shit from that, but I'm
talking about a super highquality in a higher dose omega-3
(31:06):
fatty acid.
In a higher dose omega-3 fattyacid, I think people get a
little bit shy about takingsupplements as well, so I take
one omega-3.
Do you know how many of thosethings I take?
Three.
Therapist Jenn (31:20):
I take two to three.
Dr Teralyn (31:21):
It depends.
Therapist Jenn (31:22):
Yes, I take three.
Dr Teralyn (31:23):
Yeah, yeah, they're good for your cholesterol,
they're good for your heart andthey're also really really good
and important for your brainhealth.
So I think, again, people arekind of shy because they're
worried about what's going tohappen.
But this is what happens.
You take one.
You're like, yeah, it doesn'tmake a difference if I take one
or not.
I'm like, yeah, of course,because you need more than one.
Therapist Jenn (31:43):
And you'll notice, guys, you will notice,
and Terry and I have talkedabout this you'll notice if you
take them for a while, and thatif you stop and if you go four
or five days without, them yourword finding is shit.
Things get foggy.
Your brain will either gofaster or slower than the words
that are coming out of yourmouth.
You just have this like mehkind of feeling Metabolically.
(32:05):
Things slow down in the body,guys, they change because that's
what omegas also help with.
Right, there's a cardiovascularpiece there's an inflammation
piece.
Dr Teralyn (32:15):
They help to fight inflammation.
So there's, there's that, andif you're listening, I'm a
menopausal woman in.
If you're in menopause, this islike a non-negotiable like do
omega-3 fatty acids?
So that would be my number one.
What's your number two?
Therapist Jenn (32:30):
So my number one is that as well.
Then my number two is a reallygood ass.
B complex is a really good ass,b complex and when I say good
right, I'm not even talkingabout quality, I'm talking that
(32:51):
is a huge thing, but also like,um, look and see what kind of B
is in it.
Dr Teralyn (32:52):
It's active forms of what you're looking for.
Therapist Jenn (32:54):
Yeah, so if you guys methylated active, so when
you're looking on the back ofyour supplements, you're going
to see it's going to say like Idon't know, pick a B, any B, b,
b2, b3, b6, right.
If there's something inparentheses after it, that's you
that you can't pronounce.
Or it looks like a word you'venever seen before.
Dr Teralyn (33:13):
Yeah, go for it.
Therapist Jenn (33:17):
Yes, that means it's actually an active form of
that B.
Dr Teralyn (33:28):
So a little caveat with B complex, so many people
will want to buy like a B6 byitself or a B3 or B2.
A really high complex.
They work synergisticallytogether.
Therapist Jenn (33:33):
So you're going to want a high quality B complex
, most of your B complexes aregoing to have like a B1 in it
and a B2, a B3, a 6 or a 7, 12.
Dr Teralyn (33:46):
So these are Methylated folate should be in
there too, somewhere Methylatedfolate.
Therapist Jenn (33:51):
That's going to be your B9.
Dr Teralyn (33:53):
Your 12 is your there you go that one See I
can't even say the words.
Therapist Jenn (33:58):
You got it right the words you can't pronounce
that are afterwards.
That's what we need.
There those are good, so Iwould it's a toss up, because
for me it's going to be betweenthe B and the D for the second.
Dr Teralyn (34:09):
Oh yeah, vitamin D.
I'm thinking about the onesthat I take every day and I take
omega-3 and I take vitamin Dand again I.
So I just happen to have alittle bit of genetic
information for myself.
I don't I'll say hang on tovitamin D.
Very long in my body it's gone.
Like I need higher doses due tosome genetic snips that I have.
(34:33):
So I take like people are goingto freak the F out on this.
I take 20,000 IUs throughoutthe winter and about 10,000 IUs.
Therapist Jenn (34:41):
I take about 10 to 12.
That's my average yeah.
Dr Teralyn (34:45):
Yeah.
And so this is the part where Isay, like, I think a vitamin D
lab is about 50 bucks and I knowfor some people that's too much
and I get it.
But again, go back to yourdoctor, keep asking for it.
I tell people, especially inthe first year, when you're
figuring out your vitamin Dlevel, go in every three months
(35:06):
and just get it checked, seewhere you're at, so you're on
top of it, or you know if youneed more or less in between.
So every three months, andthat'll hit all the seasons, so
that'll be good.
So, yeah, vitamin D.
So we have omegas B-complexvitamin D.
So we have omegas B complexvitamin D.
Three, oh, let's see Numberfour.
Um, I know what my number four?
Therapist Jenn (35:23):
would be.
I can tell you.
I'll say mine.
I don't know if it's yours ornot, but mine's magnesium.
Dr Teralyn (35:28):
Oh, that's going to be my number four.
Yep, that was going to be.
Therapist Jenn (35:30):
this is not pre-planned guys, like you might
think it was.
But yeah, terry and I are notgaslighting you right now.
We didn't go through our listbeforehand but no, oh, she lost
her microphone.
She'd be out.
I can't hear you.
This happens sometimes.
(35:51):
So magnesium is a huge thingfor Well, essentially.
Hang on, guys.
I'm watching Terry and she'strying so hard to get in it, but
I can't.
Dr Teralyn (35:59):
She has no volume, I got it.
Therapist Jenn (36:00):
Oh, there she is , she's back.
Dr Teralyn (36:02):
I don't know what happened.
Therapist Jenn (36:03):
I'm distracted by her.
So magnesium is responsible forover like 600 functions of the
body.
It's unbelievable the amount ofpower that magnesium has.
Now I take a powder form ofmagnesium and Terry and I've
talked a little bit about thisbefore, but there's different
(36:24):
forms of the supplements thatyou can take.
Right, your most effective onesare going to be those that are
going to be at some kind of aliquid form.
Okay, if you, if you can get itnot all of them come in that
right.
Dr Teralyn (36:36):
Right.
Well, I want to just shareabout the reasoning for that.
So liposomal forms are the bestform of anything Something a
liquid drops I mean powderedliquid drops dissolvable in your
mouth Because if we can getthat absorption to begin in your
mouth and almost bypass yourstomach area because most people
(36:59):
have such bad stomach issuesyou're going to get more bang
for your buck when it comes tothis stuff.
So if we can start thatabsorption right in your mouth,
it's going to be better for you.
And also, some people arereally like capsuled out.
They're like, oh, don't give meanother goddamn capsule or pill
or whatever.
It's a pain.
Therapist Jenn (37:17):
The liquid versions they do cost more.
The powder versions they docost more.
So if you're going to do aliposomal form of something,
they are a little bit moreexpensive.
They are more expensive, butwe're breaking that blood-brain
barrier immediately.
We're actually getting more ofthe contents and the compounds
of what is in those supplementsversus, if you think about it,
(37:38):
guys, like everything has to gothrough the stomach and it's got
to process through the organsof the body, right, um, and it'd
be great to bypass that unlessyou have the most optimized gut
on the face of the earth, which,guess what, if you're doing
deep prescribing, you don't, youdon't, I hate to tell you, but
your gut health is, is health.
That will be a journey you keepworking on too, because
(38:01):
unfortunately, there is a lot ofdamage that is done from
psychiatric medications in thegut, the gut health,
unfortunately.
Dr Teralyn (38:10):
So that would be number four.
So number five I'm going to sayspecifically for deprescribing,
I would say, a probiotic.
Therapist Jenn (38:20):
Ah, yeah, okay.
Dr Teralyn (38:22):
What would you do for number five?
Therapist Jenn (38:23):
Well, I was kind of going to, um, I was kind of
going to folic acid because ofhow much the foliates are
depleted.
Um, that's one of when we'relooking about SSRI is one of the
first the nutrient depletionsthat the big ones for some of
these drugs is folic acid.
So but some of thesesupplements, guys, depending on
(38:44):
what you get, they may have someof that in there.
Dr Teralyn (38:48):
But then maybe I would go for a high, super high
quality multivitamin,multimineral, multivitamin,
cause that would have that inthere.
Therapist Jenn (38:56):
That one is one that sticks in the back of my
mind because when we go throughnutrient depletions for most
psych medications that's likenumber one on the list.
Dr Teralyn (39:04):
And B6.
Is it B6 or B3?
Is the other one B6.
B6.
Yeah, so this is the funny part, because this is where we start
, like, well, my number fivewould be different, and so
pretty soon we've got the top 10, right, and that's where you
individualize it, though.
Therapist Jenn (39:20):
Right To wrap us up where we started this
conversation is if you're notgoing to do too much in the
realm of supplementation.
Here are, like, some of thebasic ones, for the most part,
that are going to be helpful,these ones that Terry and I just
rattled off here.
These five are going toprobably be the most effective
and helpful for you through ataper.
(39:41):
But the cool part about doingsome of the functional medicine
is then you get to actually seewhat amino acids possibly we
could add in here that might behelpful to optimize some of
these neurotransmitter pathways.
So it seems like a lot, butsomething I mean.
There was one point when I wasdoing this okay, where I was
(40:01):
taking I had 12 differentsupplements total 12, between
the amino acids that I wastaking and some of the other
vitamins that I was taking, andactually it was 14 if I add in
the two powders of magnesium andvitamin C that I was taking.
Dr Teralyn (40:16):
Been there, done that Okay.
Therapist Jenn (40:17):
However, everybody, just so you know,
that doesn't last forever.
Dr Teralyn (40:22):
Like supplements, are not some you might like
there are a couple I will takeforever.
I will take a vitamin D forever.
Therapist Jenn (40:30):
I will take an omega-3 forever.
Yes, there's like two or threethat I will take forever.
Um, and a magnesium like thesewill always be in my regimen
until your foundation.
That's it Okay.
However, the 14 I was at I nowam, there's only about five or
six I take.
Yeah, and yes, I took them forlike a year, but I started to
you start to play around withafter a while, what it feels
like to not take them becauseyour brain starts to optimize.
(40:53):
So, even in my taper, I'm stilltapering everybody I've got.
I'm at 4.3 milligrams I.
So even in my taper, I'm stilltapering everybody.
I'm at 4.3 milligrams.
I'm 17, 18 months into this.
I don't have to take those sameones.
I don't have to take P5P allday long.
I don't have to take that everysingle day anymore.
I don't have to take theL-tyrosine as much as I used to.
I've been able to pull thoseout.
(41:15):
I had some things that I wastaking for metabolic issues that
I was having.
I don't have to take thatanymore.
So they're not forever.
So it's something to thinkabout too, because it's
overwhelming sometimes with theamount that you take.
But again, hi, I did kitchensink everybody.
Dr Teralyn (41:32):
Welcome to kitchen sink.
Jen's either all in or she'snot, so that's just the way, but
that's the way.
I was too Like, and and I'veI've done that, and when I know
that my brain health is kind offaltering, um, I will go back on
regimen, and I've done itbefore, and so I'll do the
kitchen sink again, um, and thenI'll go off when I feel better.
So that that's kind of the bestpart, like when we I want to
(41:54):
talk a minute about amino acidsin particular, because I think
there's going to be some peoplethat don't know what the hell
we're talking about when we sayamino acid, yep, and also this
idea that amino acid therapy isnot addictive, it's not
dependent.
There's no addiction ordependency here.
You will not experiencewithdrawal when you stop and you
(42:16):
don't have to take it forever.
So, because amino acids comeoriginating from food,
particularly protein sources.
So you're getting amino acidsjust by eating chicken, right.
So, but if you don't have thenutrient cofactors that we're
talking about your C, your D,your Bs, like you're, that
neurotransmitter pathway like ifyou're trying to make serotonin
(42:39):
is not going to do it veryefficiently, okay.
So that's why we go back tothose foundational nutritional
pieces and then you add in themedication that you're on, which
is depleting actively, some Bvitamins and things like this,
and now you know you really haveto put those back in your diet
in a bigger way.
Actually, while you're onmedications you should be taking
(43:09):
a B vitamin anyway, by the way,because of the depletion that
happens.
So, anyway, amino acids comefrom food sources, so primarily
your protein sources, and thenso if you want to make serotonin
, like your body needs serotonin, we want to make some serotonin
.
You're probably going to startwith chicken or turkey.
We'll just say some poultry,right?
So your poultry, your aminoacid, will then turn into
(43:30):
serotonin, which is aneurotransmitter, and then
eventually that will break downinto melatonin which will help
you sleep.
So here we talk about, you know, this big movement for people
to take all this melatonin.
Therapist Jenn (43:42):
I'm like no optimize your serotonin pathway.
We're just dumping a hormone inthe body.
Dr Teralyn (43:47):
Right, oh no, it's natural.
It's natural Right.
Therapist Jenn (43:51):
Do some reading about melatonin and actually
find out.
Dr Teralyn (43:54):
Yeah, it's out there .
Guys, we should do a wholeepisode on that, especially for
kids.
Therapist Jenn (44:02):
It's out there, guys.
We should probably do a wholeepisode on that.
We should do a whole episode,especially for kids.
It's out there, guys.
Yeah, but that's what Terry'ssaying.
Let's optimize thatneurotransmitter pathway.
At the bottom of it ismelatonin, at the top is your
tryptophan and then thatconverts down right To 5-HTP
serotonin.
Dr Teralyn (44:10):
Yeah, here's the newsflash about the
neurotransmitter pathways.
When you're on medication, thatneurotransmitter pathway is
going to be hijacked in some way.
Either the neurotransmitter isgoing to be super high or
eventually it's going to besuper depleted.
So optimizing that pathwaybecomes even more important,
(44:35):
because you can't get somethingfor nothing.
Therapist Jenn (44:38):
And they work together.
Guys, these, these, thesepathways work together.
So for example okay, 25 yearson on an SSRI on Lexapro right.
You would think that myserotonin pathway would be all
yeah.
Like you would think it'sperfect, Okay, Um and then.
Or you would think it's allfucked up like one or the other
(44:59):
right, Like because of takingthis medication and actually
Well for me, because I know it'sall fucked up right.
Dr Teralyn (45:06):
I know that.
But for the average consumer,they're believing that their
serotonin is right where itneeds to be.
Therapist Jenn (45:12):
So the interesting part when you do
functional medicine guys is forsome people it's super messed up
up.
For some people that pathwayactually doesn't look bad, but
their dopamine pathway is fuckedup.
So that was in the case of mine.
So I'm thinking, well,serotonin can't be looking okay
and it was.
It actually was in an okayspace, but my dopamine looked
(45:33):
terrible.
And not to spend too much timeon this, because we do have to
wrap up here.
But think about the idea thatthese pathways, they work
together.
The body is constantly tryingto figure out how to make them
work together, and so whenyou're putting a psychiatric
medication in the body, it maybe somewhat of helping one of
(45:53):
the pathways, but it's pullingfrom resources from the other
pathway, or from hormones, orfrom hormones right, to make
that homeostatic space.
It's constantly doing that.
So what's interesting is, youmight think, well, I'm just
going to go ahead and work onthe serotonin pathway, because
I've been on SSRI for 25 yearswhen, in fact, that pathway
(46:14):
looked pretty good for me and Iwas feeling pretty good in that
one.
It was my dopamine pathway.
That was all.
The catecholamines were allmessed up.
Dr Teralyn (46:20):
And your cortisol was pretty horrific.
Therapist Jenn (46:23):
That was bad so it's kind of one of these things
where, yeah, what Terry and Iare talking about is you can
throw supplements at things, youcan try it, but if you don't
test, you really don't know andyou can make it a lot more
efficient.
I don't know like you mightspend a handful of money at the
beginning, but you're going tosave some money in the long run
on supplements.
(46:44):
Yes, very true.
I would have constantly beendumping in all kinds of like
serotonin pathway things, notknowing that I was in adrenal
fatigue, I wasn't producingcortisol and my dopamine pathway
and my GABA pathways were alljacked up.
I went to watch those.
Dr Teralyn (47:02):
It's very interesting because I do get a
lot of clients actually thathave been searching for answers
for a while to their taper andthey, you know, they hear
somebody talk about a certainsupplement and they're like yes,
that's the one I need to trynext.
And so they're literally comein with a big box of supplements
and the idea of adding more ishard for them.
(47:28):
But usually what I do is Ievaluate.
First of all, I'll evaluate ifthey have a B complex.
I'll evaluate the label and belike listen, if you're going to
take this, which is fine, we'lltake it till it's done and then
we're going to upgrade fromthere.
Or this is how many you shouldprobably take to optimize this
(47:49):
thing, like sometimes with Omegaoh my God, omegas are the worst
because I'll look at the labeland be like you know you need to
take eight of these to get thesame value as two of this brand
over here, and they'll be likewhat I'm like yeah, it's really
your choice.
You can keep taking these twofor one, eight of whatever.
But so I will literally evaluateand be like this one is
(48:13):
optional.
You're not going to get goodbang for your buck with this one
.
So in the beginning.
For some people it's a lot ofsorting through some of the
supplements that they've alreadypurchased and, you know, help
them along the way.
But I commend them because itjust means that they've been
searching for help and nobodyhas been able to put it all
(48:33):
together for them until they getto the office.
So you know, supplements are abig thing right now, and so
that's really what Jen and I aresaying is, I don't like to
throw a supplement at somethingjust for the sake of
supplementing you.
Let's make it count, let's makeit matter and get your best
bang for your buck, essentiallyemotionally and financially, if
(48:56):
you will.
Therapist Jenn (48:57):
So yeah, so those are our big, big pieces,
that are the steps that happenbefore we even work on actually
tapering with a client.
So the last two episodes hereare all the things that are most
optimal.
Okay, does it mean that youhave to do all of those things?
No, I mean, you have your ownagency.
(49:17):
You can figure out how you wantto do this.
However, if you're working withTerry and I on this, these are
all the options that we give you.
I mean, there are so many, butthese are all the steps that we
lead up to and if you notice, aswe wrap up here today, we
didn't even talk about theactual taper part.
Do we have to have a part three?
We might have to, cause wedidn't even touch.
(49:40):
I'm looking down at the time.
I'm like shit, we didn't evengo on the taper part.
We might have to actually thendo an episode just on like what
the the actual taper part is foreverybody.
So maybe we should do that.
I think we just talkedourselves into that.
Dr Teralyn (49:50):
I think we just talked ourselves into doing that
.
Therapist Jenn (49:52):
Yeah, Um, and how that looks.
So, but this is, uh, this, thisis the Gaslit Truth Podcast.
If you made it to the end withus, um, you've got Dr Tara Lynn
and therapist Jen your twowhistleblowing shrinks here, and
we are also deprescribingconsultants, so we help.
We help people go through this.
Dr Teralyn (50:07):
That's the fun part for me.
Yeah, I know how many hustleswe have.
Therapist Jenn (50:09):
It's like I'm tired just talking about all
this shit we do, but if you madeit this far, um, you want to go
ahead and send us your gaslitstories?
Please don't hesitate to dothat.
You can email us atthegaslittruthpodcast at
gmailcom.
You can find Terry and I in theGaslit Truth Podcast on all the
socials all over the place, andso reach out, let us know, give
us some five stars, tell uswhat you think of the show and
(50:30):
we will see you guys next time.
you've been gaslit into believing that you will be
on your antidepressants foreveror any type of psychiatric
medication.
This is a two part episode andwe're talking about how to taper
your medications.
This is part two.
If you haven't listened, goback to part one, because you're
going to want to combine thetwo.
Therapist Jenn (00:22):
Yes, oh yeah, well, I just had done the last
episode.
Yeah, it came out on.
Yes, oh, yeah, Well, I justinterrupted you.
It was the last episode.
Yeah, it was the last episode.
Yeah, may 20th.
So get your ass back to thatone and listen.
Okay, you continue with theintro.
Dr Teralyn (00:32):
Okay, sorry, we are whistleblowing strength, Dr
Teralyn at Therapist Jen and youare listening to the Gaslit
Truth Podcast.
Welcome to the piece deresistance with medication
tapering.
Therapist Jenn (00:46):
Yeah, Part two.
People, are you ready?
We're on part two of taperingoff your meds.
Dr Teralyn (00:50):
Yes.
So, in case you guys don't know, jen and I help people taper
off medications, along with along list of other things that
we help people do.
But this is kind of thepassionate place that we are in
right now, and so deprescribingis a thing.
So we get a lot of questions,especially on social media how
do I taper my medication?
(01:12):
And I think people want like ashort answer.
They do, they do, which isinteresting, I mean, because we
all want a short solution to themental health issues in the
first place.
I know, but there is not ashort solution to deprescribing
for many.
Therapist Jenn (01:30):
So yeah, it takes a while, and when people
reach out to me and ask me aboutthat, I'm very honest and I'm
like hi, 18 months into thisprocess and that's just the
liquid part.
I did about four months of workbefore that.
So, yeah, it's a marathon.
It's actually like an ultramarathon, or it's the dopey
(01:52):
challenge that you do throughDisney, when you do a marathon,
then a half marathon, then a 5Kand then a blah, blah, blah.
Yeah, that's what this is,people.
Dr Teralyn (02:00):
That's a thing.
I've had people ask me that andI say no because I'm I'm a lot
smarter than that.
Therapist Jenn (02:06):
I can't handle that.
Dr Teralyn (02:07):
It's like I'm not very smart and everything but
that thing is a big, no so so,anyways, that you, you know,
this is like the, don't bechallenged everybody.
Therapist Jenn (02:14):
If you don't know what that is look that shit
up.
It's terrible, but it's a longjourney and it can be terrible
and it can be good, but Terryand I do this for a living.
This is one of the hustles wehave.
We help people do this.
So we're going to talk aboutthe first part of well, part two
actually, but the first pieceof this when deprescribing,
which is this idea of having onehell of a taper team.
Dr Teralyn (02:34):
Yes and wait.
I want to back up real quickbecause as long as we're talking
about timing, I want people tounderstand timing for themselves
.
So the last episode was the 90days before you actually begin
to taper, and so then I thinkit's about having realistic
expectations of time when youactually start the taper.
(02:58):
So that's the warm-up period,warmup period and starting the
taper.
I tell people roughly like thisis a rough estimate one to
three months per every yearyou've been on something.
And that's a rough estimatebecause for some people it's
less, for some people it can bemore, and it also depends upon
(03:19):
the time you're in the taper,like because the last little bit
usually is the hardest and ittakes the longest.
So this is just so you havelike realistic expectations of
time.
And yes, and I know lately I'vebeen getting a lot of women in
their sixties and above um andthey're exhausted and they're
(03:40):
like I just want off, I want mylife back, and when I tell them
one to three months, they're alittle defeated because they
thought it was going to beshorter and easier.
So then they either go well, Iguess I'll just stay on for the
rest of my life, or, yep, I'mready to tackle it.
So that's a rough estimate oftime and I think it's important
(04:00):
for everyone to have a good ideaof what this might be like.
Okay, so, like Jen, you're in.
You said 18 months, so far 18months yeah.
Because you said you started.
Therapist Jenn (04:11):
You know three, four months ahead of time, 25
years on, right.
So for reference everyone, 25years on the medication on and
off, went on and off of it andapparently there's a couple
other SSRIs in there too, that Idon't have recollection of, but
they're in my records, but yes,about 25 years.
So when you put that intocontext, it takes a while and my
(04:32):
story is not everybody's story.
However, what we knowspecifically from SSRIs and
SNRIs is the longer that you areon these medications, the
longer it takes to taper.
In general, that is a prettyblanket statement that I think
is fair to make.
So so it takes a while For somepeople.
Dr Teralyn (04:49):
I will.
I will say that there are somepeople and I don't, maybe
they're just lack awareness ofhow bad it is for them, but who
go off of it quickly and thenthey're done and it's like it
absolutely is not.
Therapist Jenn (05:02):
That's that's.
That's a bitch of this processis.
We want like a quick answer andit all one size fits all, a
little like you put it in thebox and it's not.
And we, I think, asdeprescribing consultants that's
a lot of the coaching workTerry and I do is working
through the psychology behindthat, because it's a hard truth
when you start to go throughthis and you're like, oh my gosh
, I can't go down anymore, Ican't go down, I can't go, I've
(05:22):
got to go back up, I've got toreinstate.
So we'll talk a little bitabout that within this, but the
meat of today is talking aboutjust a few main components of
what happens after the 90-daywarmup.
Dr Teralyn (05:35):
So let's jump into Taper Team and what that is All
right, so Taper Team might looka little different for everybody
, right?
Right, and I think in the inthe beginning phases of building
your team, that your team iswho can support you, and
obviously you're going to needsome type of support from your
(05:57):
prescriber, because jen and Idon't prescribe and we won't
deprescribe you in that way, soyou're going to need to have
your prescriber on board in someway, which is hard, and you
know, jen, you can share alittle bit of your story if you
want to getting your prescriberon board.
It's ridiculous.
Therapist Jenn (06:18):
Statistically it can be, I would say about 25%
of them to 30% of them.
This part's easy right.
They go in, they have theconversation they talk about,
they educate their provider onthis, because most providers
have no idea.
Prescribers don't know whatthis is.
The prescriber says, yeah, okay, I'm willing to look at this
with you and I'm willing to lookat a liquid down the road and
(06:40):
I'm willing to look at that.
Okay, and it's fine.
Then there's a good 70% of thepeople that I work with,
including myself when I startedthis process, where it doesn't
go that way.
Prescribers say no Prescribers.
I was told that's not necessaryand I have great success.
Just pill cutting with myclients, jen, you would have
(07:01):
been institutionalized, and Ialmost was I almost was in this
process.
Dr Teralyn (07:05):
Even on a slow taper .
Therapist Jenn (07:07):
Damn like a couple times.
There's been a couple reallybad times, so that's more common
.
I hear more of that, but forlong and short term.
Dr Teralyn (07:25):
There's one more common thing that has been
popping up is when people goI've had some clients go to talk
to their prescriber about, youknow, deprescribing right, and
they'll share with them the plan, like here's the plan, here's
what I want to do, and thenthey'll walk out with a new
prescription that has nothing todo with the plan.
It has everything to do withwhat the prescriber wanted the
plan to be.
This has happened now two timesin the last two months with
(07:48):
people and they don't realizethat it's the refill right.
So the refill then changes toreflect what the prescriber
wants versus what the clientneeds.
So that can be another battletoo.
So anyway, so these areconversations, they are.
Therapist Jenn (08:06):
I mean, I walked in there with the.
I walked in there with theMaldsley manual and, for those
of you if you're on YouTubewatching this, I walked in with
this manual, this deprescribingguideline, and I sat it in front
of my prescriber after thesecond time of her not wanting
to do this, and I opened to thepages of Lexapro and I went
through this.
(08:26):
I said I want you to look atthis and I'm tapping on the book
like something a mother woulddo, right, because I was so
pissed, because I'm like this isridiculous.
Now for some of my clients youget to that point and you find
yourself a new prescriberbecause, guys, the whole point
of seeing a provider, if youthink about this, the whole
point is to have like anunderstanding and for a provider
to support the clients.
(08:46):
Like that is the whole.
That is what healthcare issupposed to be, is supposed to
be about right.
So you wouldn't go see atherapist and stay with a
therapist who isn't supportingyou.
You wouldn't, you wouldn't, youwouldn't go to an ortho doctor
who is going to do a surgery anddoesn't support at all and
understand, like, where you'recoming from as a client, like
(09:09):
when bedside manner sucks,people leave and they go get a
second opinion.
You wouldn't go see providersthat aren't going to meet you
where you're at, but yet forsome reason in this world of
psychiatry and prescribing, westay with providers who are not
listening to us.
I don't know why the fuck we dothat.
But I'm on my high horse for asecond because it happens.
Dr Teralyn (09:31):
No, but really that is a fascinating conversation.
Find somebody, guys.
Therapist Jenn (09:35):
Providers are a dime a dozen, just like
psychologists and therapists goshop, damn it, shop around
around Well, in part inparticular because most
psychiatric medications aren'tprescribed by psychiatrists To
your general providers, your OBs, your family doctors, your
nurse practitioners, which iswhy I say go to your prescriber,
(09:56):
not to your psychiatrist, causeusually it's somebody, not a
psychiatrist.
Dr Teralyn (09:59):
Go find somebody else.
Therapist Jenn (10:00):
I've had two clients in the last month that
left their prescribers and wentand got a different, and they
were both.
One was seeing an OB and onewas seeing a general medical
family practice doctor.
They went and got new peopleand I went and got a new person
and I'm still in the process andI'm done with that.
I'm still sick of it.
Dr Teralyn (10:18):
So people know it's not always that easy to find
somebody new, but if you need todo that, do that.
This is why building your teamis important.
You do that before you evenstart the taper.
You know who's on your side.
These conversations happenearlier.
Therapist Jenn (10:34):
So you find your taper team which, as Terry was
saying, you build this team,which is not only going to
support people in your life whoare willing to listen to you and
understand what deprescribingis.
One of the things you don'twant to hear someone going
through.
This is well, I know you'rereally struggling right now,
terry, and maybe you need to goback and see your doctor and go
(10:55):
back up on your meds.
That person one needs moreeducation, or two is not someone
to have on your taper team.
These aren't the things we wantto hear.
So you pick people who you caneducate and who are willing to
just like, validate and listenand support you.
That's important.
But then you also need peoplethat are not in your immediate
environment, but your doctors,your prescribers.
That's very important.
(11:16):
Whoever I mean whoever you'reworking with deprescribing on
needs to be a part of your taperteam, like people like Terry
and I.
Dr Teralyn (11:26):
So and also I think I usually tell people to take a
trip to your local compound andyep, this is the next one,
because because I think that'sanother place that we feel like
we don't have a lot of influenceover, because you get it, the
prescription goes in and youpick it up and that's pretty
much the extent of it.
I tell people find a local momand pop compounding pharmacist.
(11:51):
They're everywhere.
The big box ones aren't ashelpful because they're slammed
all the time.
Not saying that the local onesaren't, but I feel like the
local ones are more apt toeducate and listen and whatever.
Go have a conversation withyour compounding pharmacist to
see what the best way to eitherrecompound your medication, make
(12:13):
a liquid form or even possiblyteach you how to make your own
liquid form.
If you don't feel comfortabledoing that on your own, so go
have somebody teach you that.
Therapist Jenn (12:25):
And don't rely on your prescriber to do this.
I made the mistake of that andI think a lot of the people we
see make that mistake.
Once you're at a space ofstarting this process, you can
actually look at what taperingcould look like in terms of a
liquid.
First, you got to find out ifit comes in a liquid.
Is there a dissolvable form?
Are there strips?
(12:47):
There's lots of options thatare out there, most of which
you're not going to know unlessyou have a direct conversation
with the pharmacist.
So that's something that I did.
I had to switch pharmaciesbecause mine was not a
compounding pharmacy.
They didn't have the ability todo it.
The second one I went to did,but they didn't take um, like
good RX programs or programsthat help pay um for some of
(13:10):
these prescriptions, okay.
So I had to go to a differentone because the cost was
astronomical.
So what you got to do is youstart to do that.
You can call around, you cantalk to these pharmacists.
They can tell you that Um.
So what you've got to do is youstart to educate yourself on the
type of drug you have.
Is it a powder?
Is it a pill?
What forms does it come in,because you will have to get to
(13:31):
a space for most of these drugswhere you're going to have to
compound it into a liquid form,which essentially means taking
that drug and it being mixedwith water, which is how they do
this and they compound it themilligrams per milliliter that
are in these drugs.
So that's part of your taperteam, so to not spend too much
time on that, but that's part ofthe team that you got to have.
Dr Teralyn (13:51):
I think they're the most important part.
You have to dial it in beforeyou start and there are options,
guys, even if you don't.
Therapist Jenn (13:58):
Can you pull beads out?
Can you weigh beads?
Can you get yourself a jewelryscale?
Can you shave powder?
Can you mix beads with food?
Yes, these are all options.
You can make your owncompounding liquids.
But this is good research to doon the front end so that you
know what those options are.
Dr Teralyn (14:19):
Well, I think doing that for some people feels way
better than fucking around withyour pills.
Therapist Jenn (14:28):
Like you know like it's such an arduous task.
Dr Teralyn (14:32):
Like it is, it's very tough, and it's one of the
things that I think can stoppeople from moving forward,
because it takes so much effort.
Um.
So if you can outsource thateffort to a compounding
pharmacist, I would say try that.
Therapist Jenn (14:47):
If the drug allows it.
Dr Teralyn (14:48):
Yep, that's what I.
I would be doing that, I woulddefinitely be doing that, yeah.
So I would say, give that, givethat a good try, you know.
So, cause even Jen, you you'vetalked about, even though you do
get your liquid compounded thatsometimes you're like, oh, all
I do is think about the littlesyringes and all this stuff.
Therapist Jenn (15:09):
It's so much on your mind.
I know there's a lot I mean,I'm married to these syringes
that are in all my drawers everysingle night that I have to
like okay, who am I going topick tonight?
Okay, here's your onemilliliter, here's your 10
milliliter, like it's right.
Yeah, so there's a whole.
That's a whole, nother piece toit.
But I think you can workthrough it and sometimes, yeah,
(15:29):
it's a we don't want to go downthat rabbit hole, but yeah, that
was part of part of the mindfuckery that happens.
Dr Teralyn (15:34):
And Jen, are you really having withdrawal,
because you know every time youchange the dose, uh, because
you're you know I want to makethis clear too that you can even
experience some withdrawalsfrom changing forms.
How the, the, the form ofmedication, right, you can also
have withdrawal from the sourceof the drug.
Therapist Jenn (15:57):
So you can go ahead and get one one pharmacy
that uses a certain drug companyand if they switch and use a
different one, or you get on ageneric that's actually made in
another, another drug company,and if they switch and use a
different one, or you get on ageneric that's actually made in
another drug company, you canalso experience adverse
reactions from that.
That is a real thing.
Dr Teralyn (16:12):
Yes, and I think that's something that we don't
talk about enough.
It gets dismissed a lot.
Well, it's the same thing, it'sjust off-brand, it's just a
different color.
Therapist Jenn (16:20):
We just got it from a different manufacturer
Jen, that's the one I've heard.
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
What I'm experiencing is real,is real.
Dr Teralyn (16:28):
So, with that in mind, when someone switches,
I'll just say form.
So if you go from your capsuleor whatever to a liquid form,
you're going to want to stay onthe exact same dose for a while.
Therapist Jenn (16:41):
I always suggest that to people.
A lot of them don't want to,and that's fine.
Dr Teralyn (16:44):
You don't have to Everything is just a suggestion.
No, they want to get started.
I got it and I want to go.
Therapist Jenn (16:49):
But once we get taper team dialed in, then here
comes this idea of the next step, which is and Terry and I are
going to talk about this, butwe're going to give you guys the
kitchen sink.
These are Terry's words and Ilove it, I use it.
She should just like you,should like brand that.
But it's this idea of we'regoing to give you like what
works the most effectively andthere's options within it.
(17:09):
You don't have to do all ofthese things, but damn, if you
do it, you're going to be waymore well prepared.
And we are talking about doinglab work.
We are talking about doing somefunctional medicine work at
this point with functional labs.
Dr Teralyn (17:21):
Yes.
So I like to give people theopportunity to also go to their
doctor again and do.
If you haven't done a physicalexam, like a yearly physical, do
one.
This would be a great time foryou to do that, with all the
labs that come with that.
So your CBC and evencholesterol, do it all, and then
(17:43):
Jen and I will A metabolicpanel, right, micronutrients,
even get your thyroid checked.
So do it all so that we havelots of data, and I talk about
this with people.
So much of this is collectingdata, especially in the early
days.
The more data we have, the moreinformed decisions we can make
(18:07):
around that data.
So if you're coming back andyou've got some micronutrient
problems, or even I'll just sayeven vitamin D like if your
vitamin D is super low you canbe damn sure we're going to be
accounting for that in yourtaper, because that could be the
reason why you feel like shitanyway.
So you don't need more meds.
Maybe you need vitamin D, right?
(18:28):
So these little bits ofinformation can yield really
good results for you when weactually look at them in
functional lab ranges, I'm goingto say because there's a
difference between Westernmedicine within range and
functional medicine, optimizedranges, and there's a big
(18:51):
difference between these twothings.
I'll give the example ofvitamin D for a minute.
So where we live, everyone'slow in vitamin D.
But you know what?
The elderly people in Floridaare super low in vitamin D, as
well, but vitamin D productionalso decreases as you get older.
Therapist Jenn (19:06):
The body produces less because of your
hormones.
Dr Teralyn (19:08):
Yes so, but nobody takes that into account.
So anyway.
So that's why I'm saying this,because even if you live in a
very sunny state all year round,your vitamin D still could be
very low.
So your vitamin D ranges looklike I think it's like 34, 35 is
where they start within range,and it goes up to 100.
(19:28):
That's your within range.
Well, that is a really largerange, but optimizing is like 80
to 100.
So if you're sitting down at 34, 35, and you feel like you've
got low mood, low energy, you'vegot a ways to go to optimize
that vitamin D.
(19:48):
So, yeah, so that is one real,I think, a good example of like
this range is so important, andif you're 34, you're almost out
of range.
Therapist Jenn (20:00):
You are and you might be somebody who actually
does feel so much better.
Right, they say like an optimalrange is between like 40 and 70
or something.
But you may be somebody who youcan be at like 60 or even 65
and you still don't feel well.
So we need to bring you up to ahigher range, um, and we play
(20:22):
around with that because you,you might be out of that that
range.
But that's the difference, asTerry is saying, between like
functional optimal.
I mean we look at optimallevels for people and how they
feel versus here's what a rangesays Thyroids the story of so
many people with thyroid issues.
Right there you talk aboutWestern medicine and the optimal
range Hand raised.
Dr Teralyn (20:42):
There you go, hand raised.
Yes, yeah, because if mythyroid were, I think it goes up
to four or something like that,the TSH.
They'll say well, you're withinrange.
If I was a four or even a three, and sometimes even a two and a
half for TSH and thyroid, Iwould be napping all day, but I
would be told well, you're fine.
(21:04):
That's within range, but that'snot within my range, and so,
again, so much of this is likereclaiming a sense of yourself
and understanding and, oddlythis is so odd when we're
talking about vitamin D it isone of the labs that you
literally have to ask for.
It's not included in a typicalpanel for a physical exam, which
(21:26):
is mind blowing to me becauseit's so important for so many
things, but you have to ask forit.
So, jen and I will give you alist of labs, like the extra
labs to make sure that you havewhen you go to your physician's
office and ask for those, andsometimes they get denied, which
is also weird to me.
Why would you deny someone avitamin D lab, which?
Therapist Jenn (21:47):
doesn't matter, because, guess what?
We got options for you.
Dr Teralyn (21:50):
Doesn't matter, you got 50 bucks, we'll take care of
it for you.
Therapist Jenn (21:53):
Like we will.
Dr Teralyn (21:54):
That's what I ended up doing.
It's not hard, whatever Like itjust.
Therapist Jenn (21:58):
It's not hard to find alternatives.
We'll run the HSA card and herewe go, let's do a lab.
So there are options.
But the other thing to sayabout this, before we move on to
some of the other areas, isthere are options for also
assessing symptoms and how youare feeling.
That if functional medicine anddoing lab work in this way is
(22:20):
not an option for you, okay,because not only can you do it
through your doctor, but, likeTerry was just saying, this is
something that you can dothrough us as well, and we will
put together an awesome reportthat is going to tell you all
the things about your adrenalsand some of your hormones and
your main neurotransmitterpathways right.
(22:40):
Serotonin, dopamine, you know,gaba, glutamate, all the things
right.
We can do that.
Dr Teralyn (22:45):
It's a thing, yeah, Even things like histamine and
glycine.
We can look at all of theseneurotransmitter levels.
These are called functionallabs, and it's interesting
because I get this a lot tooLike well, can't I go to my
doctor and run these labs?
I'm like you can ask them aboutthem, but they're not going to
be knowledgeable of functionallab work.
Therapist Jenn (23:07):
They don't actually know they exist.
Guys, they don't get it.
Yeah, they don knowledgeable.
They don't actually know theyexist, they don't get it.
Dr Teralyn (23:11):
Yeah, they don't, they don't know it, which is
funny, like how do you not knowit?
Therapist Jenn (23:14):
But anyway, I just had a client tell me that
my doctor says you can't measureserotonin and I'm like I pull
out my report and I shake it infront of my camera.
Here, here's mine.
Yes, you can Right, yeah.
Dr Teralyn (23:30):
Yeah, and your cortisol throughout the day,
Like again these are functional.
So when we say functional, Jenand I are not looking for
disease states.
We're looking for how yourbrain and body is functioning.
Therapist Jenn (23:41):
So that's the easiest part.
Dr Teralyn (23:44):
Yeah, because here's the thing.
I'll just say this we can alsodo checklists, which is what Jen
was talking about, like moodchecklists and things like that.
However, the one big thing isthis Low serotonin and high
serotonin have almost the samesymptomology?
Yeah, and also, where is youranxiety coming from?
(24:06):
If you have anxiety, where isyour anxiety coming from?
Where is your anxiety coming?
Therapist Jenn (24:13):
from?
Is it because you have low GABAor high dopamine or?
Dr Teralyn (24:15):
high serotonin or low serotonin, right, all these
things.
Therapist Jenn (24:16):
So if we don't know why, it's very difficult to
(24:43):
direct care in that way.
So, again, the checklists areokay, but they're they're a
little bit the taper team dialedin and you're understanding who
you've got on there.
Then we go to functional labwork or subjective assessment
work going to your doctor,getting some labs done at your
doctor so that we have data, sothat we can actually use some
data to move to the next spaceof this, which is then looking
(25:08):
at what kind of things do weneed to possibly supplement with
yeah, your plan creation, wecreate the plan right.
That lab work can tell you a lotabout which areas also of like
those mental health pillars thatwe talked about in the last
episode we need to focus on.
If you're somebody whosecortisol is not optimized at all
(25:30):
and you are waking up with very, very little cortisol right,
and throughout the day it justkeeps dropping, okay, that's
going to tell us something aboutwhat we need to focus on with
you.
You know, if yournorepinephrine is not converting
to epinephrine because itrequires that to do that right,
then not only is your dopaminechannel messed up, but this is
(25:52):
why sleep looks the way it does,and it's all interconnected,
guys.
Dr Teralyn (25:56):
So then we can actually it's mind-blowing, the
connection when we make it it is, it just is right, so nothing
is siloed in this process.
Therapist Jenn (26:02):
In the world of functional medicine, nothing is
ever siloed, so we look at arethere supplements that could be
helpful?
Are there nutrient deficienciesthat are occurring that we need
to work with viasupplementation via food?
Could amino acids be actuallyhelpful for you at this point,
because your dopamine pathway isnot looking good and we might
(26:25):
need to work a little bit on notonly getting your cortisol in a
good space, but also you mightneed some L-tyrosine to start
kicking that pathway up.
Dr Teralyn (26:35):
It's all interconnected or bringing it
down, like not tyrosine forbringing it, but bringing it
down again.
So this is that piece where, ifwe don't have this information,
we can't create a verycustomized plan for you that
you're going to feel and I tellpeople like you're going to know
(26:56):
when it's right, like you'regoing to know when we have
everything dialed in and correctand with that, like I also
think, the functional lab workthis isn't an advertisement for
functional lab work, but this isI also feel like it's so
important because once we cansee it, then we know exactly
what supplementation for you touse and what's going to hit the
(27:19):
hardest.
Without that information,people get a lot of supplements
just kind of thrown at them andthey don't understand their
reasoning behind.
And so I think that's one ofthe places that Jen and I do
really good work is.
We'll say, like she said,tyrosine.
Tyrosine is really good for thatdopamine pathway.
Remember, your lab work saidyour dopamine looked like this
(27:41):
Tyrosine will help improve thatpathway and you should get a
little bit more giddy up anddrive.
And people then are like, ohokay, that makes sense.
Or let's say, all of yourneurotransmitter pathways are
low, like your big ones like allright, we need to not only
maybe supplement, but improveyour protein intake a lot.
So it gives us just so muchbeautiful information, and I
(28:07):
always talk about this as beingan art form.
This is the art.
This is the art.
And so there's also this piecethat can feel overwhelming and
Jen was talking about thatkitchen sink idea.
So I get a little too giddy anda little too much, and so I'll
create these reports.
Therapist Jenn (28:25):
I was so overwhelmed the first time, the
first report I ever had fromTerry, because I've done all
this guys, I've done this wholething, so everything we're
talking about like kitchen sink,I was like, well, fuck it, I'm
going to do it, but the firsttime.
I actually saw my labs, whichTerry was actually doing a
training for myself and for someof our other colleagues, and
(28:47):
she's like, can I use you as asubject matter?
And I'm like, well, sure, Imean, I haven't seen my labs
anyway.
So let's look at the report.
And I just sat there like openmouth breathing.
I'm like I can't even follow afucking thing she's saying right
now.
Dr Teralyn (29:01):
Okay, but which is hard for me because I'm like I
get so excited about sharing allthe things I overgive clients
information, and then I see thisgloss.
Therapist Jenn (29:10):
Look, when I'm doing consulting, I'm like I'm
giving you way too much shit.
Okay, let's slow down.
But we have the ability to doeither baby steps or here's the
whole kitchen sink.
But the beauty of this is youcan take the whole thing and you
pick the areas you want tostart on.
Take the whole thing and youpick the areas you want to start
on.
And this is super importantwhen you're also looking to
(29:33):
taper your medications, becauseI hate to tell you guys, but
when you start tapering off, itcan change how these levels look
.
It can change how youmetabolize things in your body.
Now, we're not in there to knowall of that, but if we've got
some data that we can use to tryto optimize how we're doing it
and I don't know maybe decreasethe likelihood that you cause
(29:56):
harm to your brain and body orgo through some significant
withdrawal why not?
Dr Teralyn (30:03):
Yes, even just your very basic foundational pieces
of supplementation can be soimportant If you don't want to
go to the next step and use,like amino acid therapy or
whatever, like just those basicfoundational pieces can bring
you so much relief.
Therapist Jenn (30:18):
Let's give people that package the top,
like five or six.
We've talked about this beforewhen it comes to supplements,
supplements, yes.
Dr Teralyn (30:26):
Yeah, Okay, so well, I mean, you can help me out
with this too.
But my non-negotiable numberone I think you're probably
going to know which one I'mgoing to say, my non-negotiable
number one is omega-3 fattyacids.
I didn't want to say it outloud because I'm like we could
not agree on this.
Therapist Jenn (30:42):
but yes, yeah.
Dr Teralyn (30:43):
And that's fine.
We don't have to right.
Therapist Jenn (30:44):
Yes, omegas.
Dr Teralyn (30:45):
No, no, no, but I'm sure our top five are going to
be similar.
If you don't do anything andI'm talking about a super high
quality omega-3 fatty acid, nota buy one, get one free at
Costco because you're not goingto get shit from that, but I'm
talking about a super highquality in a higher dose omega-3
(31:06):
fatty acid.
In a higher dose omega-3 fattyacid, I think people get a
little bit shy about takingsupplements as well, so I take
one omega-3.
Do you know how many of thosethings I take?
Three.
Therapist Jenn (31:20):
I take two to three.
Dr Teralyn (31:21):
It depends.
Therapist Jenn (31:22):
Yes, I take three.
Dr Teralyn (31:23):
Yeah, yeah, they're good for your cholesterol,
they're good for your heart andthey're also really really good
and important for your brainhealth.
So I think, again, people arekind of shy because they're
worried about what's going tohappen.
But this is what happens.
You take one.
You're like, yeah, it doesn'tmake a difference if I take one
or not.
I'm like, yeah, of course,because you need more than one.
Therapist Jenn (31:43):
And you'll notice, guys, you will notice,
and Terry and I have talkedabout this you'll notice if you
take them for a while, and thatif you stop and if you go four
or five days without, them yourword finding is shit.
Things get foggy.
Your brain will either gofaster or slower than the words
that are coming out of yourmouth.
You just have this like mehkind of feeling Metabolically.
(32:05):
Things slow down in the body,guys, they change because that's
what omegas also help with.
Right, there's a cardiovascularpiece there's an inflammation
piece.
Dr Teralyn (32:15):
They help to fight inflammation.
So there's, there's that, andif you're listening, I'm a
menopausal woman in.
If you're in menopause, this islike a non-negotiable like do
omega-3 fatty acids?
So that would be my number one.
What's your number two?
Therapist Jenn (32:30):
So my number one is that as well.
Then my number two is a reallygood ass.
B complex is a really good ass,b complex and when I say good
right, I'm not even talkingabout quality, I'm talking that
(32:51):
is a huge thing, but also like,um, look and see what kind of B
is in it.
Dr Teralyn (32:52):
It's active forms of what you're looking for.
Therapist Jenn (32:54):
Yeah, so if you guys methylated active, so when
you're looking on the back ofyour supplements, you're going
to see it's going to say like Idon't know, pick a B, any B, b,
b2, b3, b6, right.
If there's something inparentheses after it, that's you
that you can't pronounce.
Or it looks like a word you'venever seen before.
Dr Teralyn (33:13):
Yeah, go for it.
Therapist Jenn (33:17):
Yes, that means it's actually an active form of
that B.
Dr Teralyn (33:28):
So a little caveat with B complex, so many people
will want to buy like a B6 byitself or a B3 or B2.
A really high complex.
They work synergisticallytogether.
Therapist Jenn (33:33):
So you're going to want a high quality B complex
, most of your B complexes aregoing to have like a B1 in it
and a B2, a B3, a 6 or a 7, 12.
Dr Teralyn (33:46):
So these are Methylated folate should be in
there too, somewhere Methylatedfolate.
Therapist Jenn (33:51):
That's going to be your B9.
Dr Teralyn (33:53):
Your 12 is your there you go that one See I
can't even say the words.
Therapist Jenn (33:58):
You got it right the words you can't pronounce
that are afterwards.
That's what we need.
There those are good, so Iwould it's a toss up, because
for me it's going to be betweenthe B and the D for the second.
Dr Teralyn (34:09):
Oh yeah, vitamin D.
I'm thinking about the onesthat I take every day and I take
omega-3 and I take vitamin Dand again I.
So I just happen to have alittle bit of genetic
information for myself.
I don't I'll say hang on tovitamin D.
Very long in my body it's gone.
Like I need higher doses due tosome genetic snips that I have.
(34:33):
So I take like people are goingto freak the F out on this.
I take 20,000 IUs throughoutthe winter and about 10,000 IUs.
Therapist Jenn (34:41):
I take about 10 to 12.
That's my average yeah.
Dr Teralyn (34:45):
Yeah.
And so this is the part where Isay, like, I think a vitamin D
lab is about 50 bucks and I knowfor some people that's too much
and I get it.
But again, go back to yourdoctor, keep asking for it.
I tell people, especially inthe first year, when you're
figuring out your vitamin Dlevel, go in every three months
(35:06):
and just get it checked, seewhere you're at, so you're on
top of it, or you know if youneed more or less in between.
So every three months, andthat'll hit all the seasons, so
that'll be good.
So, yeah, vitamin D.
So we have omegas B-complexvitamin D.
So we have omegas B complexvitamin D.
Three, oh, let's see Numberfour.
Um, I know what my number four?
Therapist Jenn (35:23):
would be.
I can tell you.
I'll say mine.
I don't know if it's yours ornot, but mine's magnesium.
Dr Teralyn (35:28):
Oh, that's going to be my number four.
Yep, that was going to be.
Therapist Jenn (35:30):
this is not pre-planned guys, like you might
think it was.
But yeah, terry and I are notgaslighting you right now.
We didn't go through our listbeforehand but no, oh, she lost
her microphone.
She'd be out.
I can't hear you.
This happens sometimes.
(35:51):
So magnesium is a huge thingfor Well, essentially.
Hang on, guys.
I'm watching Terry and she'strying so hard to get in it, but
I can't.
Dr Teralyn (35:59):
She has no volume, I got it.
Therapist Jenn (36:00):
Oh, there she is , she's back.
Dr Teralyn (36:02):
I don't know what happened.
Therapist Jenn (36:03):
I'm distracted by her.
So magnesium is responsible forover like 600 functions of the
body.
It's unbelievable the amount ofpower that magnesium has.
Now I take a powder form ofmagnesium and Terry and I've
talked a little bit about thisbefore, but there's different
(36:24):
forms of the supplements thatyou can take.
Right, your most effective onesare going to be those that are
going to be at some kind of aliquid form.
Okay, if you, if you can get itnot all of them come in that
right.
Dr Teralyn (36:36):
Right.
Well, I want to just shareabout the reasoning for that.
So liposomal forms are the bestform of anything Something a
liquid drops I mean powderedliquid drops dissolvable in your
mouth Because if we can getthat absorption to begin in your
mouth and almost bypass yourstomach area because most people
(36:59):
have such bad stomach issuesyou're going to get more bang
for your buck when it comes tothis stuff.
So if we can start thatabsorption right in your mouth,
it's going to be better for you.
And also, some people arereally like capsuled out.
They're like, oh, don't give meanother goddamn capsule or pill
or whatever.
It's a pain.
Therapist Jenn (37:17):
The liquid versions they do cost more.
The powder versions they docost more.
So if you're going to do aliposomal form of something,
they are a little bit moreexpensive.
They are more expensive, butwe're breaking that blood-brain
barrier immediately.
We're actually getting more ofthe contents and the compounds
of what is in those supplementsversus, if you think about it,
(37:38):
guys, like everything has to gothrough the stomach and it's got
to process through the organsof the body, right, um, and it'd
be great to bypass that unlessyou have the most optimized gut
on the face of the earth, which,guess what, if you're doing
deep prescribing, you don't, youdon't, I hate to tell you, but
your gut health is, is health.
That will be a journey you keepworking on too, because
(38:01):
unfortunately, there is a lot ofdamage that is done from
psychiatric medications in thegut, the gut health,
unfortunately.
Dr Teralyn (38:10):
So that would be number four.
So number five I'm going to sayspecifically for deprescribing,
I would say, a probiotic.
Therapist Jenn (38:20):
Ah, yeah, okay.
Dr Teralyn (38:22):
What would you do for number five?
Therapist Jenn (38:23):
Well, I was kind of going to, um, I was kind of
going to folic acid because ofhow much the foliates are
depleted.
Um, that's one of when we'relooking about SSRI is one of the
first the nutrient depletionsthat the big ones for some of
these drugs is folic acid.
So but some of thesesupplements, guys, depending on
(38:44):
what you get, they may have someof that in there.
Dr Teralyn (38:48):
But then maybe I would go for a high, super high
quality multivitamin,multimineral, multivitamin,
cause that would have that inthere.
Therapist Jenn (38:56):
That one is one that sticks in the back of my
mind because when we go throughnutrient depletions for most
psych medications that's likenumber one on the list.
Dr Teralyn (39:04):
And B6.
Is it B6 or B3?
Is the other one B6.
B6.
Yeah, so this is the funny part, because this is where we start
, like, well, my number fivewould be different, and so
pretty soon we've got the top 10, right, and that's where you
individualize it, though.
Therapist Jenn (39:20):
Right To wrap us up where we started this
conversation is if you're notgoing to do too much in the
realm of supplementation.
Here are, like, some of thebasic ones, for the most part,
that are going to be helpful,these ones that Terry and I just
rattled off here.
These five are going toprobably be the most effective
and helpful for you through ataper.
(39:41):
But the cool part about doingsome of the functional medicine
is then you get to actually seewhat amino acids possibly we
could add in here that might behelpful to optimize some of
these neurotransmitter pathways.
So it seems like a lot, butsomething I mean.
There was one point when I wasdoing this okay, where I was
(40:01):
taking I had 12 differentsupplements total 12, between
the amino acids that I wastaking and some of the other
vitamins that I was taking, andactually it was 14 if I add in
the two powders of magnesium andvitamin C that I was taking.
Dr Teralyn (40:16):
Been there, done that Okay.
Therapist Jenn (40:17):
However, everybody, just so you know,
that doesn't last forever.
Dr Teralyn (40:22):
Like supplements, are not some you might like
there are a couple I will takeforever.
I will take a vitamin D forever.
Therapist Jenn (40:30):
I will take an omega-3 forever.
Yes, there's like two or threethat I will take forever.
Um, and a magnesium like thesewill always be in my regimen
until your foundation.
That's it Okay.
However, the 14 I was at I nowam, there's only about five or
six I take.
Yeah, and yes, I took them forlike a year, but I started to
you start to play around withafter a while, what it feels
like to not take them becauseyour brain starts to optimize.
(40:53):
So, even in my taper, I'm stilltapering everybody I've got.
I'm at 4.3 milligrams I.
So even in my taper, I'm stilltapering everybody.
I'm at 4.3 milligrams.
I'm 17, 18 months into this.
I don't have to take those sameones.
I don't have to take P5P allday long.
I don't have to take that everysingle day anymore.
I don't have to take theL-tyrosine as much as I used to.
I've been able to pull thoseout.
(41:15):
I had some things that I wastaking for metabolic issues that
I was having.
I don't have to take thatanymore.
So they're not forever.
So it's something to thinkabout too, because it's
overwhelming sometimes with theamount that you take.
But again, hi, I did kitchensink everybody.
Dr Teralyn (41:32):
Welcome to kitchen sink.
Jen's either all in or she'snot, so that's just the way, but
that's the way.
I was too Like, and and I'veI've done that, and when I know
that my brain health is kind offaltering, um, I will go back on
regimen, and I've done itbefore, and so I'll do the
kitchen sink again, um, and thenI'll go off when I feel better.
So that that's kind of the bestpart, like when we I want to
(41:54):
talk a minute about amino acidsin particular, because I think
there's going to be some peoplethat don't know what the hell
we're talking about when we sayamino acid, yep, and also this
idea that amino acid therapy isnot addictive, it's not
dependent.
There's no addiction ordependency here.
You will not experiencewithdrawal when you stop and you
(42:16):
don't have to take it forever.
So, because amino acids comeoriginating from food,
particularly protein sources.
So you're getting amino acidsjust by eating chicken, right.
So, but if you don't have thenutrient cofactors that we're
talking about your C, your D,your Bs, like you're, that
neurotransmitter pathway like ifyou're trying to make serotonin
(42:39):
is not going to do it veryefficiently, okay.
So that's why we go back tothose foundational nutritional
pieces and then you add in themedication that you're on, which
is depleting actively, some Bvitamins and things like this,
and now you know you really haveto put those back in your diet
in a bigger way.
Actually, while you're onmedications you should be taking
(43:09):
a B vitamin anyway, by the way,because of the depletion that
happens.
So, anyway, amino acids comefrom food sources, so primarily
your protein sources, and thenso if you want to make serotonin
, like your body needs serotonin, we want to make some serotonin
.
You're probably going to startwith chicken or turkey.
We'll just say some poultry,right?
So your poultry, your aminoacid, will then turn into
(43:30):
serotonin, which is aneurotransmitter, and then
eventually that will break downinto melatonin which will help
you sleep.
So here we talk about, you know, this big movement for people
to take all this melatonin.
Therapist Jenn (43:42):
I'm like no optimize your serotonin pathway.
We're just dumping a hormone inthe body.
Dr Teralyn (43:47):
Right, oh no, it's natural.
It's natural Right.
Therapist Jenn (43:51):
Do some reading about melatonin and actually
find out.
Dr Teralyn (43:54):
Yeah, it's out there .
Guys, we should do a wholeepisode on that, especially for
kids.
Therapist Jenn (44:02):
It's out there, guys.
We should probably do a wholeepisode on that.
We should do a whole episode,especially for kids.
It's out there, guys.
Yeah, but that's what Terry'ssaying.
Let's optimize thatneurotransmitter pathway.
At the bottom of it ismelatonin, at the top is your
tryptophan and then thatconverts down right To 5-HTP
serotonin.
Dr Teralyn (44:10):
Yeah, here's the newsflash about the
neurotransmitter pathways.
When you're on medication, thatneurotransmitter pathway is
going to be hijacked in some way.
Either the neurotransmitter isgoing to be super high or
eventually it's going to besuper depleted.
So optimizing that pathwaybecomes even more important,
(44:35):
because you can't get somethingfor nothing.
Therapist Jenn (44:38):
And they work together.
Guys, these, these, thesepathways work together.
So for example okay, 25 yearson on an SSRI on Lexapro right.
You would think that myserotonin pathway would be all
yeah.
Like you would think it'sperfect, Okay, Um and then.
Or you would think it's allfucked up like one or the other
(44:59):
right, Like because of takingthis medication and actually
Well for me, because I know it'sall fucked up right.
Dr Teralyn (45:06):
I know that.
But for the average consumer,they're believing that their
serotonin is right where itneeds to be.
Therapist Jenn (45:12):
So the interesting part when you do
functional medicine guys is forsome people it's super messed up
up.
For some people that pathwayactually doesn't look bad, but
their dopamine pathway is fuckedup.
So that was in the case of mine.
So I'm thinking, well,serotonin can't be looking okay
and it was.
It actually was in an okayspace, but my dopamine looked
(45:33):
terrible.
And not to spend too much timeon this, because we do have to
wrap up here.
But think about the idea thatthese pathways, they work
together.
The body is constantly tryingto figure out how to make them
work together, and so whenyou're putting a psychiatric
medication in the body, it maybe somewhat of helping one of
(45:53):
the pathways, but it's pullingfrom resources from the other
pathway, or from hormones, orfrom hormones right, to make
that homeostatic space.
It's constantly doing that.
So what's interesting is, youmight think, well, I'm just
going to go ahead and work onthe serotonin pathway, because
I've been on SSRI for 25 yearswhen, in fact, that pathway
(46:14):
looked pretty good for me and Iwas feeling pretty good in that
one.
It was my dopamine pathway.
That was all.
The catecholamines were allmessed up.
Dr Teralyn (46:20):
And your cortisol was pretty horrific.
Therapist Jenn (46:23):
That was bad so it's kind of one of these things
where, yeah, what Terry and Iare talking about is you can
throw supplements at things, youcan try it, but if you don't
test, you really don't know andyou can make it a lot more
efficient.
I don't know like you mightspend a handful of money at the
beginning, but you're going tosave some money in the long run
on supplements.
(46:44):
Yes, very true.
I would have constantly beendumping in all kinds of like
serotonin pathway things, notknowing that I was in adrenal
fatigue, I wasn't producingcortisol and my dopamine pathway
and my GABA pathways were alljacked up.
I went to watch those.
Dr Teralyn (47:02):
It's very interesting because I do get a
lot of clients actually thathave been searching for answers
for a while to their taper andthey, you know, they hear
somebody talk about a certainsupplement and they're like yes,
that's the one I need to trynext.
And so they're literally comein with a big box of supplements
and the idea of adding more ishard for them.
(47:28):
But usually what I do is Ievaluate.
First of all, I'll evaluate ifthey have a B complex.
I'll evaluate the label and belike listen, if you're going to
take this, which is fine, we'lltake it till it's done and then
we're going to upgrade fromthere.
Or this is how many you shouldprobably take to optimize this
(47:49):
thing, like sometimes with Omegaoh my God, omegas are the worst
because I'll look at the labeland be like you know you need to
take eight of these to get thesame value as two of this brand
over here, and they'll be likewhat I'm like yeah, it's really
your choice.
You can keep taking these twofor one, eight of whatever.
But so I will literally evaluateand be like this one is
(48:13):
optional.
You're not going to get goodbang for your buck with this one
.
So in the beginning.
For some people it's a lot ofsorting through some of the
supplements that they've alreadypurchased and, you know, help
them along the way.
But I commend them because itjust means that they've been
searching for help and nobodyhas been able to put it all
(48:33):
together for them until they getto the office.
So you know, supplements are abig thing right now, and so
that's really what Jen and I aresaying is, I don't like to
throw a supplement at somethingjust for the sake of
supplementing you.
Let's make it count, let's makeit matter and get your best
bang for your buck, essentiallyemotionally and financially, if
(48:56):
you will.
Therapist Jenn (48:57):
So yeah, so those are our big, big pieces,
that are the steps that happenbefore we even work on actually
tapering with a client.
So the last two episodes hereare all the things that are most
optimal.
Okay, does it mean that youhave to do all of those things?
No, I mean, you have your ownagency.
(49:17):
You can figure out how you wantto do this.
However, if you're working withTerry and I on this, these are
all the options that we give you.
I mean, there are so many, butthese are all the steps that we
lead up to and if you notice, aswe wrap up here today, we
didn't even talk about theactual taper part.
Do we have to have a part three?
We might have to, cause wedidn't even touch.
(49:40):
I'm looking down at the time.
I'm like shit, we didn't evengo on the taper part.
We might have to actually thendo an episode just on like what
the the actual taper part is foreverybody.
So maybe we should do that.
I think we just talkedourselves into that.
Dr Teralyn (49:50):
I think we just talked ourselves into doing that
.
Therapist Jenn (49:52):
Yeah, Um, and how that looks.
So, but this is, uh, this, thisis the Gaslit Truth Podcast.
If you made it to the end withus, um, you've got Dr Tara Lynn
and therapist Jen your twowhistleblowing shrinks here, and
we are also deprescribingconsultants, so we help.
We help people go through this.
Dr Teralyn (50:07):
That's the fun part for me.
Yeah, I know how many hustleswe have.
Therapist Jenn (50:09):
It's like I'm tired just talking about all
this shit we do, but if you madeit this far, um, you want to go
ahead and send us your gaslitstories?
Please don't hesitate to dothat.
You can email us atthegaslittruthpodcast at
gmailcom.
You can find Terry and I in theGaslit Truth Podcast on all the
socials all over the place, andso reach out, let us know, give
us some five stars, tell uswhat you think of the show and
(50:30):
we will see you guys next time.
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