22-Time World Champion Horse Trainer Robert Chown

22 time World Champion and Horse Trainer, Robert Chown joins the podcast to discuss his philosophy on training, his experiences within the horse industry & the trials he's faced in life.
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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
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(01:57):
with host Chance Conrad. Are youfreaking serious? It's Conrado, This is
the gauge and I am chanced onthis episode of the podcast. We have
got Robert Chown. Robert is oneof the most respected people in the entire
cowhorse industry. He's got over twentytwo world titles and he has also trained

(02:21):
fifty plus world champion horses. Andhe's he's a wonderful guy. He's one
awards as a commentator. He's verydiverse and very intelligent, and I sure
enjoyed talking to him. Check itout, kind of have an obstructed view,
but will you know work around nineyears now, I've been like this
really bothers me? Did you putit right there? And zero has been

(02:43):
taking so in other words, Ijust brought something back up. Oh it's
been brought up any times. Sowhat do you say? Can we move
that at some point? And yougo to be like, yeah, yeah,
we'll do that, and it's stillthere. Just give me a drill
and I'll take care. I don'tknow. I don't think it'd be real
complicated. He didn't see. Iwould move it to say the right of

(03:04):
Robert, but then that would blockyou your camera. I also, I
also suggested that other microphone, andyou talked me out of it. Do
you mean you mean the microphone armsthat were like five hundred dollars? Yeah,
yeah, but we only need theone anyway. I guess we need
you informality, we need to notreally not for our purposes. No one
would notice that, trust me,someone that would notice. Well, well,

(03:29):
Robert, thanks for coming in.It was an interesting conversation with your
daughter. And I was like,you know, Riley, a lot of
people come in out of here,and they're like, tell your dad high
Tell your dad high Man. Yourdad's a good guy. And I'm like,
it's real strange, Riley that youhave never suggested your father come on
this show. Why why is ityou haven't done that? And she was
like, well, I just don'tthink he has much to say. Well,

(03:52):
yeah, you know, I didn'tfigure that she didn't say that.
I didn't think she wanted to feellike she was pushing no. But in
all seriousness, I was like,man, there's another guy who's like,
hey, Riley, tell your dadhigh. I was like, we probably
should have your dad on here atsome point. Find out why all these
people want to say hi, Yeah, exactly what does he know that I

(04:13):
don't know that everybody wants his attentionfor. I do know, based on
you know, kind of what she'stold me and what have you, that
you've had a pretty interesting life andas far as horse training goes, a
pretty illustrious career. And what I'vefound and kind of the whole point of
the show is that there's a lotof good that can come out of stories

(04:33):
from people like you, and alot of good information that you really can't
get anywhere else, and I'm sureyou agree with that. Yeah, I
mean you know that I think too. You know, the horse industry,
horse training, I feel like horsetraining is a lot like dealing with people
in ways. You know, youhave different personalities of horses you have.

(04:57):
You know, some you can needto push and some of you don't,
and some relationships blow up in yourface, and you know, some work
out well. But I think thatespecially the whole deal has changed over the
course of my career. I kindof make a joke that I'm like one

(05:20):
of the youngest of the old guys. I mean, there's guys older than
me that I think are some ofthe older of the young guys because we
grew up, you know where Igrew up in an era where you know,
nobody specialized in anything. You know, they brought you a horse,
you trained it, you found outwhat that horse could do, you steered

(05:42):
it in a direction. Pretty much, now everybody specializes. You know,
it doesn't matter whether you rad RandGowers's rainers, cutters, you barrel race,
you wrote, you do that.If you're going to do it at
a high level, that's what youdo. So and I think you know
a lot of ways and that withwith life too, you know. Um,
but it's also it has been greatfor I think that you would agree

(06:11):
that in any discipline right now,the level of competition is amazing. I
mean, you know, I canremember when whether you know, when they're
running, you got you gotta bea sixteen something on a standard pattern and
the barrels now to really get afterit. And I mean I remember seventeen

(06:33):
four, seventeen five was pretty Itwas a dang good run when a lot
of rodeos, you know, Imean, just taking that discipline because I
know it's a lot of where youknow, you have a lot of rodeo
people listening, but or the inthe raining or the cowhorse or the cutting
or the roping or the whatever.But that what I call the age of
specialization. When that kicked in,that makes all that great. But I

(06:57):
realized, kind of taking this allall the way, taking this away from
your original question already, but Ikind of get that way. I just
kind of know it's just to windme up and I kind of go somewhere.
It makes for good podcast. Butwhat it does too, I think
that the negative down the part ofthat is I think some general horsemanship has
been lost um, I agree,and well don't quite well. And in

(07:19):
the horses too. Yeah, Now, the horses have gotten very specialized.
But that's also because too, youknow, somebody says, well, I
want a real versatile athlete, andI mean that's wonderful. Everybody wants that,
but that horse is probably not goingto win at the highest level at
any one thing then, because it'sjust gotten too tough. You know.

(07:40):
The barrel horses run faster and turnfaster, the rainning horses stop harder and
spin faster. The cutting horses domore freaky things. In front of a
cow, the cow horses do theirdeal. I mean, it doesn't matter.
Um, you know, it's kindof like the athletes, you know,
bigger, stronger, faster. It'sit's that and the horse deal.

(08:01):
And I think because of that too, the riders the trainers have learned how
to deal with that kind of athletenow, and they have also become so
specialized, even down to the pointyou got some that can show one or
run one, and you got somethat can train one, and that's not
always the same person. Then you'vegot other people that can coach somebody on

(08:24):
how to do it. That mightbe a completely different person altogether. So
you know, but the good thingabout that is too is it opens up
so many avenues for somebody that wantsto be in this industry. You know,
there's there's a lot of people thatcan make make a living now,

(08:45):
say coaching, you know where whenI was growing up, you know,
you did everything. I mean,you trained them, you showed them,
you gave lessons, You probably stooda stud you had a few mayors,
and you and sell somebody a cultand they'd leave it with you so you'd
have something to train and go show, you know. So But anyway,

(09:07):
that is a that is a reallygood point. And I've always thought that
the Western world was a good threefour decades behind every other quote unquote sport
and the way that it you know, they've progressed because you've seen that depth
in other sports like crazy. Imean, you have entire careers and industries
and humongous paychecks there that are builtaround supporting like the athletes for instance,

(09:31):
just that part, and then there'sthe promoting of the sport. Then there's
there's all these little pieces that feedlike the one machine, and the Western
world was missing that for a longtime. And it's actually starting to catch
up a little bit. Yes,yes it is. But don't you think
though, to a point, it'sbecause some of that was hobby driven originally.

(09:52):
Of course, you know where youcan be Okay, you can love
football, You're never going to playin the NFL, absolutely, I mean
you know. And the thing wasis, but with with Western disciplines,
okay that there was. There wasonly a few that maybe ever got to

(10:18):
that that level where you were treatedlike an athlete. Yeah, you know,
and then it was a second rate, yes, and even in and
I don't care what you're doing,whether you're rodeoing, whether you're horse showing,
whether you're what you're only as goodas what you're mounted on. Okay,
you can be the greatest horse riderin the world. And that goes

(10:41):
into rough stock too, that goesright into bore riding. I mean,
so half that score belongs to theanimal, and I mean that truly truly
plays as big a factor as anySo you need that animal athlete partner no
matter what you're doing. Okay,well, in our game, you know
that also then requires different than inthe in the NFL and the NBA or

(11:07):
Major League baseballer or whatever, whereit's that guy. He might belong to
a team, but as far ashim, his athletic ability is based on
what he himself can do. Wherewe need partners. So we also then
need partners on the human side tohelp us acquire those animal athletes that we

(11:33):
have to have. And um sometimesthose people want to just be um oh,
like there are there's different owners too. There's the owners that want to
own the sports franchise. They haveno desire to play, but they're your

(11:54):
aged event owners or your UM personthat may be back some cowboy going to
the NFR and says, that's myhorse that so and so is riding or
running or roping on or whatever,you know, and that is and they
have that sports team mentality. Thenyou have the other owners that yeah,
they want that, but I wantto play too, So I'm going to

(12:18):
I'm going to show my own athlete, you know. And and I think
we were so long maybe driven andthis is not a bad thing, but
driven by that segment, yeah,and gives you, as the trainer,
just that constant anxiety that you know, this horse is leaving at some point,

(12:41):
well yeah, or or you're andthat's just one more element that you're
responsible for that's not totally in yourcontrol. You know, I can prepare
the horse, I can prepare therider to my best ability, but once
I send through the gate, it'son. Now. Yep, they gotta
do it. I mean, Imean, I'll yell from the side and
everything else, but but at theend of the day, they they've got

(13:07):
to do it, you know.But anyway, those people too. And
I think with time you learn onething the you know, you mentioned the
anxiety and stuff like that, andand sometimes people don't realize that that goes
with being a horse trainer. Thereis there is a lot of that.

(13:31):
I know you've you've you've talked aboutthis on this podcast before. And it
doesn't matter whether you're what discipline you'rein in the Western industry, there will
be some of that going along becauseyou're always, well not always, most
of the time, you are responsiblefor somebody else over your winning and losing,

(13:52):
and somebody can jerk the rug outfrom under you. And even if
you're or if you're a rodeo cowboyriding somebody's horse and they're not happy with
how you're riding it, at theend of the day, it's their horse.
Yeah, and they can take itfrom you and you know, you
can't win without it or you've gotto go find another one. And they're
just not not all out there.So there is that, but it's still

(14:18):
it's a great I don't want toI definitely don't want to act like it's,
uh, you know, oh woeas us for being able to do
this, because at the end ofthe day, I still say, you
know, it's a heck of adeal getting paid to do it somebody else
pays to do Yeah, I mean, you know, and with that comes
a corresponding responsibility. But you alsotoo, you have to look at this.

(14:43):
No one everybody does not look atthe same situation the same Somebody looking
at a situation from the idea it'stheir hobby, somebody's looking at a situation
from it's my business. That persondoes not see the exact same thing the
same way, not even remotely.And what I think say helps immensely is

(15:07):
when those two people can communicate,because you're gonna have to, you know,
and sort things out that way andrealize, you know, maybe I
just don't want to push this,you know, maybe maybe I don't want
to walk out and call this horsea bad name that this person absolutely loves
and it's his kid. You know, maybe I just probably shouldn't do that,

(15:31):
And somebody says, uh, youknow, and at the same time,
maybe an owner shouldn't say, well, why did you pick that cow
that you just lost? Well,like if I thought he was a good
one when I picked him, Imean, you know, I didn't know
he's gonna run me over, youknow. So it's it's it's a it's
a two way thing there that Ithink is so good when people will just

(15:54):
back up, take a deep breathand look at it. See if we
don't look at it exactly the sameand respect the other person's side. Well,
that all comes back to something thatI've seen a lot of horse trainers
or people in the Western world juststruggle with, point blank, is fostering
good relationships and being expert level communicators. Because you wouldn't look at a horse

(16:18):
trainer and think that, hey,this guy needs to have a very high
level of intellect and a very highlevel of communication skills to keep these relationships
that are paying his bills and gettinginto the next level together. And you
know that's an interesting thing. Youyour daughter was telling me is that you've
had certain clients for twenty five plusyears even even further. And that's a

(16:41):
testament to that whole notion, rightthat, I mean, the biggest element
to pretty much anything that you're goingto do, not just horse training,
but a business venture, employment,you know, intersexual relationships for God's sake,
Like it's going to be communication.And I mean certainly something I've struggled
with, thinking like I know whatI'm doing, I don't got to tell

(17:03):
you, and then what ends uphappening is these things implode. Well,
yeah, and the thing is tooa lot of great horse trainers are introverts,
okay, because it's almost at itshighest level, I feel it's an
art form. Yeah, and they'rea little artisty. There's a lot of

(17:26):
isolation. There's a little actor inthem because you get out there, you
are putting on a show, youare presenting this horse, okay, and
you have to go in there incompetition and say look at me, look
at my horse. We're better thanthem. Okay. So with that comes

(17:49):
that a little bit of that actoror that theatrical mentality. Yeah, but
a lot of a lot of artisticpeople like that are introverts. They're not
good at um communication in in thatway. They communicate great with horses,

(18:14):
you know. But horses too arewonderful to communicate with because I've never met
very many horses that ever lied tome. They may be sorry, they're
pretty upfront about it. Yeah,yeah, they are, Okay. I
mean I I rarely ever got pawedin the head by one that didn't tell
me he was a little bit thatway, you know. I mean,

(18:37):
they like them, don't like them, whatever. They're Horses are honest.
There's very few things a horse doesthat can't be predicted because they're honest.
Now, you might push the wrongbutton, you know, and I've done
it. We've done it. Mightnot, but looking back, I can
say I can see how that happened, you know. But but you know,

(19:03):
going back to the what where Imy deal changed is probably the way
I was raised. I mean,I don't know, I believe it or
not. I think I could bean introvert. Now you're saying, well,
you haven't shut up since you satdown, Well you're not supposed to
shut up on a podcast, that'sthe point. So it works out great.

(19:25):
But the way I grew up,Okay, See my dad had the
had a huge livestock operation in southernCalifornia, and it wasn't a horse show
operation. I didn't grow up.I have three brothers and and they're all
been highly successful horse trainers, allof them world champions. And but we

(19:49):
didn't grow up in a horse trainingdeal. Okay. My dad's deal was
horse sales education. Okay. Heran a camp for kids. He later
started a college because he couldn't getenough good help. I think was the
way he reasoned he started the college. He was trying to do it right

(20:11):
now. Yeah, I mean,you know, but at its day,
when I was growing up, andI am considerably younger than my brothers,
we were giving thirty one thousand ridinglessons a year. Get your mind around
that. One two hundred kids aday in the summertime, weekend camps,
Christmas camps, Eastern camps, youknow. So and then he would go,

(20:37):
you know, and I was alittle I would have to be a
little promoter sometimes. So I'd bestanding there, you know, be ten
or eleven years old, and I'dbe standing there, not knowing anything was
coming, and then all of asudden he'd pushed me out there and say,
now, Robert tell the folks whythey should come to camp. What
are you going to learn when youcome to camp? Oh? I only

(20:57):
do it, oh about twice becausethat wasn't going to go over well,
you know, so you get shovedout into those situations. And I think
that's how you know, you gothrough your You're a product of your life
experiences too. I mean, youhave your talents, you have your you
know, just like that horse,you know. And that's where I said,

(21:19):
it's it's interesting how horse training andlife goes together. You know,
horses they're born with however much talentthey've got, They're born with what looks
they have, They're born with whatconfirmation they have, all of that.
But there's a lot of environmental stuffthat goes into a horse. I mean

(21:41):
there's a lot of there's a lotof horses that could be really good that
are ruined. There's a lot ofaverage horses. That average horse will never
be a great horse. But there'sa lot of average horses that can go
be good at an event because theygot in the right environment, they got
the right training, they learned howto do it, and they got real

(22:02):
solid at what they do. AndI mean, you know, and I
think that's the same thing to apoint with people. I think it's one
hundred percent the same thing with people. I mean, if you look at
kind of the core things that formthe person you might be, not unlike
the horse, you're a product ofyour experiences, your environment, and your
traumas kind of have three things absolutelyplace you spend your time, the things

(22:25):
you do, the people you're withduring that time, and the things that
are bad that happen to you inthat time period. And those things all
go together to pretty much create theblueprint for who you are going to be,
and it continues to evolve for thebad, for the good, for
the indifferent, and you might beable to change a few inherent things about
yourself, just like you know,there's people who can fix certain things about

(22:45):
horses. But if a horse gotknocked in the head by some jackass over
and over again, the chances thatyou're going to get him to not do
this when you throw your own inthe air ever in his life, what
are the chances you can get himto stop doing that? You can't same
thing with people. I mean,I go even down to like I have
some brothers, mechanically they can fixanything me not so much. Okay.

(23:12):
You give me a tool like Idon't even know what it what it's supposed
to do. I mean, youknow, like my wife would not let
me put my daughter's baby things togetherbecause she was afraid that, like I
might kill her. I mean therewas that swing set thing that I made

(23:34):
that came apart that day. Yeah, I mean, just dumb stuff like
I got in true with that.But anyway, but you know, you
give me a you know, yougive me a bridle and a sad a
lying teach them things to do aboutanything. Yeah, you know, you
give me, uh one pick upand I need the mechanic to do anything
with it, right, you know. And but that's also too okay,

(23:57):
How can you be that much differentthan you brothers? My brothers grew up
in a different deal where they werefixing stuff, They were doing this,
they were doing that. There wasthree of them, you know. Well
by the time I was of youknow, teenager early even before that,

(24:17):
they were all gone. I wasthe guy that had at sixteen, had
forty head in training and three peoplesaddling for me. You know, somebody
hooked up the trailer and did thisand did that. And I went and
did here and there because at thatstage, as far as the family business,

(24:38):
that is what where I was needed. That's what I was told to
do, you know. And soI never learned how to fix anything.
Okay, now, learned how toride horses, learned how to train horses,
learned how to sell horses. That'sbut not the other. So again

(24:59):
going back to you know, yourenvironmental deal, it's it's totally and I
don't think you know, it's likepeople. You look at people that grow
up in really bad environments and makegood things out of themselves. Um,

(25:22):
I think those people are to beadmired. I because didn't. That's hard
to do well, Yeah, Imeant your training. Yeah, I mean
statistically it's impossible. Number wise,it's it's such a few amount of people
and you have to go so farback from the decimal to find one that
they are so famous because of it. Now, generally they've got some pretty

(25:48):
terrible mental trepidations and things they haveto work through in these kind of terrifying
valleys that they fall into. Imean when we were talking about Mike Tyson
last night, and that's a primeexample, you know, horrifying environment horrifying
environment, rose to the highest peakof sports, right and the late eighties
and nineties, thought that he wasn'tworth what he wiped his ass with,

(26:11):
you know, did terrible things,went to prison, lost, put himself
in a situation where he lost threehundred million dollars to somebody. Yeah,
which which you go, how isthat even possible? Had a child die,
I was convicted of rape, lostevery cent he had, fell into
a cocaine habit that nearly killed him, and has come out of it.

(26:33):
And it's a relatively inspirational guy noweven though it's got like this, you
know what I mean. It's likehe was one of the greatest boxers of
all time. But the whole time, after all that he thought he was
worthless. He did he never heknew enough to get out, but he
didn't know enough how to love himselfto make sure that he didn't destroy it.
And there's a lot of that thatgoes around. Yeah, well,

(26:55):
and especially too. You know,it amazes it amazes people, and I
get it, but it amazes peoplehow that accomplish so much. It amazes
other people that that person could feelthemselves is worthless. Yeah, you know,

(27:21):
but again too it makes you wonderand I don't know, I didn't
you know, if he wasn't toldthat a lot when he was little,
he was you know, and alot of times, you know, I
mean, it's the same thing witha horse training, you know, for
just said or whatever. You know, a lot of times what you learn
fairst you to learn best. Everything'sa self fulfilling prophecies. You have to

(27:42):
unlearn certain things. But there's somany things that happen in our brains and
we don't We were just talking aboutthis because of some of the conversations we
had last night. But it's likethere is no good resource for horse trainers
or people in the Western world togo get help for anything. There's just
not you know, if you're ahigh level athlete, you've got the best
sports psychologists and infrastructures around you tomake sure that you don't implode on yourself

(28:07):
or try to keep you from doingit at least, but you know,
we don't have that. There's noresources and U And it's something that bothers
me a lot because when I wasa little kid, yeah, I mean,
whatever, I whatever, the badthings that happened, I made sure
that that I wrecked what was goodto fulfill those prophecies, not unlike Mike
Tyson. His mom told him hewas a piece of shit and then he

(28:27):
was gonna end up in jail.My god. He was the world champion
of every single belt that a heavyweightperson could kill him, didn't didn't lose
a single round, and was oneof the richest people in sports, and
he somehow made sure that he fulfilledthat prophecy and got his ass in jail.
Yeah, for five years, fouryears. I mean, you do
that. We all do that.And if everybody thinks really hard, think

(28:48):
back to one of those things,you somehow fulfilled that prophecy, whether it
was good or bad. Well,yeah, I mean, you know,
whether whether you want to quote theBible as far as as a man think
that's so issy, or whether youwant to I mean what Henry Ford says,
whether you think you can or youthink you can't. You're right,
Yeah, you know, I mean, well, yeah, who knows what

(29:08):
we'll go with it exactly for thecase of this converse, for this conversation
or whatever. You know. Butbut I think too, you know,
and and and um and and I'mvery into positive thinking, is very very
very important and being positive is veryvery important. But I think too the

(29:34):
flip side of that coin is toothough, is is you can't lie to
yourself. I mean, you knowyou have to um you know, you
gotta know where you're at, andyou can be positive that you're going to
get somewhere. But you know,it's it's I've seen um so many some

(29:59):
of the most insecure people I haveever met have been some of the biggest
raw raw positive thinking. I needto be an inspirational, motivational speaker,
and I'm like, well, youknow, maybe we should work on our

(30:19):
own house a little bit first.Yeah, but you know, I think
there's deeper rooted issues with that,like and there's some really cool resources out
there, like like the strides thathave been made. And I don't know
how many cowboy people look at thisstuff besides me. I'm sure there's a
lot of them who do. Butit's like, if you if you look
in some of like the medical fields, like neuroscience, some of the things

(30:40):
that they're finding with the way ourbrains work and like epinephrin and dopamine and
how those systems actually function, BecauseI mean, you talk about it all
the time, But you'll meet peoplewho are filthy rich, who've achieved every
success possible, right, and theyare miserable sons of bitches. They hate

(31:00):
everything about themselves. Everything they gotmeans nothing to him. And you look
at him and you're like, yougot everything, Why are you so miserable?
Well, because they got their wirescrossed, because you know, and
I think horse trainers do the samething. And I really got to thinking
about this last night after conversations Ihad with Zane Davis about how much,

(31:22):
how in his words, how hardhe takes it when he doesn't win,
how much pressure he puts on himself. And every horse trainer does this,
but you know, he's so typeA that I think it gets extreme.
But our whole system is meant tofocus on the journey and not the destination.

(31:42):
And it sounds corny, but Imean with horses, you're training them.
This whole thing that you're doing withthis horse, the money that's invested,
your time that's invested, that bill'sfeed, fuel, everything is meant
to calm and aid in this oneperformance, right, and then if that
performance doesn't go right, you forgetabout the entire journey, right, and

(32:07):
you're ready to jump off of something. And that's because our wires are crossed.
We're supposed to focus on the journey. Yeah. No, And that's
a good point. And I don'treally know. When you pick a high
stress, high competitive business or laneto go on and you say this is

(32:34):
what I'm going to do, someof that is unavoidable again because you're dealing
you know, you're dealing with otherthings. You know, because I know
that again looking at it from twosides, owners side, trainers side everything
else. If I go in thereand I just really screwed up, I
don't really think my owner wants tohear, Oh but we had fun,

(32:54):
didn't we Yeah, you know,no, they didn't have fun or that,
And you know, and that's that'sthat's probably not what I necessarily mean
because like that all, I'm nota person who believes in just pure happy,
go lucky positivity for no reason.But you know, even if it

(33:15):
didn't go right in that one event, that that owner still has an extremely
valuable asset at the end of thatwell and that journey that built that asset
if you look at it through thecorrect lens, and you know, it's
like it's so easy to say thison a microphone. That's a lot harder
like last night, I didn't workout for somebody to actually say it.

(33:36):
But at least at least you canthink about it right and try to find
a pathway in your brain and notgo down such a dark path, dark
road. Yeah. Well, andI think I think the thing is too.
I think both of these, Um, all of this is not incompatible,
you know. I mean, thethe being very competitive and at the

(34:00):
same time enjoying the journey. It'snot incompatible. It's hard, you know,
it's hard to do sometimes because youknow, we get so like you
said, we get so fixated onthe one thing. Now, Okay,
now I had I brought I onlybrought one three year old here. Okay.

(34:22):
We were sitting really good after twothings, and the third thing,
the fence work, didn't go sowell for me. Okay, But I'm
taking home a horse I like thatis still well trained, that sound,
that's happy, and he will winand he's valuable. I don't know when,
I don't know where, but hewill win, you know. And

(34:45):
I think we have to keep thatin mind. That I think if we
train and that's the thing, wego back, we go back to that
specialization thing you sinned. Different peopledo different things in other words like dub,
but I mean within the horse trainingrealm, you have your aged event

(35:07):
people or your you know, yourfraternity people if you will, you and
then you have your more weekend peoplethat go to you know, the weekend
shows or whatever else you know,and those aren't necessarily always the same.
That's not the same people, thesame trainers, the same the same everything.

(35:30):
Yeah, you know. And Ithink sometimes the aged event deals,
whether it's the fraternities, the derbiesthat whatever, you know, if you're
running at this one check for howevermuch, six figures, whatever, um,
it gets very easy to think thatwe have done all this going back
to what you just said a minuteago for this and that's where I think

(35:52):
that we've got to eliminate that fromour minds. To be good horse trainers,
to be good stewards of what Godhas given us, no train the
horse, and if the horse issaying, you know, and I think
all of a lot of the negativethings that are about horse training, if
you'll keep that in perspective, Ithink, go away people talk about you

(36:12):
know, putting too much pressure onhim, you know, I mean,
looking at the looking at the verydownside of things that happen, whether it's
putting too much pressure on horses,whether either physically mentally whatever, to where
some pal they either get injured orthey get mentally you know, they blow
up or whatever. You know.Usually a lot of that's done because somebody

(36:38):
is training by the calendar. Yeahyou know this thing just said no or
said hey, wait a minute,I don't get this, you know,
and when he says I don't getthis, you know, if we'll have
the patience to back up there andsay, okay, now about this.

(37:00):
What about if I show it toyou this way? Can you understand it
that way? Rather than have thatmindset is this s ob is going to
get it today, because if hedon't get it today, I'm going to
be behind and he's got to getit and it's going to happen to day.
And I think too though, thatgoes back to you talked about,

(37:22):
you know, environmental and how yougrow up and how everything else where I
grew up. We grew up traininghorses that my dad could sell. Well,
trust me, there's no market forone that stands on his hind legs
and walks across the arena every timeyou pull the right rein. Okay,
nobody wants one of those, andyou want to talk about uh, I

(37:43):
mean, get my butt whipped.If I overloaded one to the point that,
you know, some lady that couldbarely ride in a car from Pasadena
couldn't get on this thing and gotake off, I was going to be
in trouble, you know. SoI think that. But you know,

(38:04):
but that's not always the same.Unfortunately, that's not always the same mindset
on when you put deadlines on people, you know, and and and going
back to as horse trainers have thatresponsibility, but don't just lay it all

(38:25):
at the horse trainer. Don't bethe owner that thinks that you've got to
if if you have a horse trainerthat you think you have to go somehow
motivate to go step your horse upall the time, maybe this guy is

(38:45):
not the guy for you. Okay, So you know, again, they
have responsibility. We all have responsibility, you know, so joint venture exactly,
so you know, I mean weall have to um and I think
too that you know, we wealso put sometimes and it's the nature of

(39:08):
the beast, you know. Itas far as the the faterity, derby
deal, everything else that you know, we we buy horses, we train
horses with that in mind, youknow that, and that's great, and
that that also too helps the industry, you know, fraternities we were and

(39:30):
I dang sure do not want tofor one minute come across like I'm anti
aged event antifaturity, because it alsotoo tough to do because that's always been
the thing in pretty much every day. But it also though too, you
know, it's what drives the breedingbusiness, it's what drives all kinds of

(39:51):
other things in the industry, andit's the metrics for where the horse is
going to go now, So it'salso too. And those events where they
only have one year to do it, that's why you new ones every year
for it. So it's it's it'sbusiness wise, they're very very very very
needed, you know. So Idon't want to feel like I'm I'm anti

(40:13):
there. I just think that there'ssome times that both owners and trainers maybe
need to back up and say,let's make this horse a derby horse.
If he's a if, if you'rein three year old fraternities, you know,
maybe this horse in the barrel raceneeds to be a five year old
fraternity horse. It's such a trickything with the barrel horses because there's so
many people who use that little fiveyear old loophole to not push that horse

(40:37):
a little bit. Well true,yeah, well, and that's a you
know, that's a again though,don't you think that comes down to um?
I don't know. I want tobe careful saying this because but you
know, if you have somebody thatconsistently can't get one ready at four,

(40:59):
then may then maybe you maybe needsomebody else, you know. But but
you know, I just think thatif you love horses, and we all
say, if you remember why,I think most people, most people got
into this, into the Western disciplinesbecause they loved horses. Yeah. They

(41:23):
may because it feels good, yeahthey And they love to be around horses.
They love to to just associate withthem. You know, as long
as you don't lose that, youwon't get too far, you won't get
too far off path, as longas it's about the horse, yeah,

(41:44):
you know, And that doesn't meanthat you know, that doesn't mean you
go out there every day. I'mnot trying to act too like, oh,
if you go out there every dayand you pet this thing three times
on the right side, three timeson the left side, and tap him
on the hip twice. He's goingto become a champion. Oh no.
But you know there wasn't going backto people in society and everything else.

(42:07):
You know, there wasn't a lotof kids made great that weren't ever pushed
either. I can't think of anyyou know, So I don't know,
heyl Son. If you're not wearingrock and roll Denham, then you ain't
no cowboy. I'm Dale Brisbee,the greatest boy rider ever to live,
and I'm known for keeping it ninety. And I keep it ninety because I'm

(42:27):
wearing rock and roll Denham with reflextechnology. They give me the flexibility I
need to get that knee up.My biggest problem is I get an earache
because I get my knee up sohigh and kick myself in the year.
That's why I'm the greatest of alltime. It's because of rock and roll
Denim all Son, get you some. Yeah, it's I mean, it's
all about finding finding the right balance. But I mean, going back to

(42:49):
the environment thing, it is sointeresting. It's one of the great things
we can learn from horses if youjust really especially young horses. I mean,
I love two year olds half ofmy whole life. And there's so
much you can learn from a twoyear old because just like you said,
they're gonna be honest with you,you know, and they're gonna tell you
when they're ready and when they're notready. And I think one of the
failed points that a lot of I'vecertainly had it, but a lot of

(43:12):
horsemen have is they just don't listento that, and they'll make certain places
of battleground. And if you lookat what happens with that horse when it
is older, when it's that fouryear old or that five yearl or whatever,
it's like, if you really payattention, and it's just like kids
or people, you can go backand say, oh wow, that point,
that battleground is why this horse didn'tget to the level that maybe he
could have. And that'd give youa good example. I was riding a

(43:37):
two year old three three days agoand she was working really good, really
good, like in the roundpin.Everything was great, and I'm learning,
I'm gonna take her out and I'mgonna start working in the arena. Well,
I was mad, and I waslike, this little bitch won't lope
circles in the arena, And I'mlike, well, maybe I pushed her
too hard and then I started fightingnorthing. I'm like, hold on,

(43:58):
if I make this arena a placeof trauma, she might never work right
in the arena. Again, It'spossible she might associate this area with trauma.
What if I go and I tryto trop my circles and and take
it somewhere else. All right,let's stop this fight, Let's go to

(44:20):
the pasture. Let me see.Sure as shit, what does she start
doing? Immediately picks up her leadand is trotting circles and then loping cantering
circles. Perfect. Sometimes we haveto choose to get out of the environment
that we're in, whether that's thehorse or yourself, to get where you
need to go. And I justdon't think a lot of people think about

(44:42):
that in their own lives. Andcertainly, you know, we can use
horse analogies to explain every fricking thingthat applies to humanity. But you know,
that was a great example. Iwas ready to lay down my fricking
life with this two year old,like this bitch is gonna do what I
wanted to do here and she wasn't. Yeah, so I'm like, well,
you know what, maybe this isthe wrong place and the wrong time.

(45:04):
Let's go somewhere else. It fixedit. That comes back though,
what you just described was about beinga good listener. Yep, how many
people are good listeners? Oh,it's it's it's probably the number ones.
It's funny. We were just talkingabout this last night. I think I
actually brought it up that time,as if we look at ourselves in the
mirror, most people aren't listening toanyone ever. They're not They're waiting for

(45:28):
their turn to talk, their timeto lead, their time to be in
the spotlight. Well what they're yes, exactly and what they're doing. And
you can tell. I mean,you can be looking at somebody in the
way they're looking at you. They'renot listening to what you're saying. They're
plotting their response. You know,they're all ready so most of the time

(45:49):
they don't even get what you saidanyway. Okay, but what going back
to the horses, where I'm goingback to the horses. That was about
being a good listener. Now,sometimes being a good listener is are you
really flipping me off? You are. It's on, come on, let's
go. Yep, you know,And that is also part of being good

(46:15):
listener. But you know, butyou give them the benefit of the doubt
there first. But like what you'rejust saying, you know, if you
go and you and you just say, no, you're gonna do this,
You're gonna do it this way.You know you're gonna do um. I'm

(46:36):
going to shove this round peg throughthat square hole no matter what. Yep,
you know. It doesn't ever work. No, you know, I
mean, and keep doing it,but it's not gonna work. It's not.
But here's the here, especially withthe little analogy that I use,
Like you can really look at thatone, and we decided not to squit

(46:59):
do the square pig through the roundhole, but we still got the result
we wanted, just in a differentplace. And that's a pretty good analogy
for life. You can still getwhat you want, it just might not
be on your exact terms and inthe exact place that you think it needs
to be in that very moment,right And that doesn't discount the fact that

(47:20):
in the back of your mind,you know we're gonna have to turn around
and go do this in the arena, yep. But the main thing is
I got it exactly, I gotit, Okay, So I mean you
can say you won whatever. Youknow. One of the biggest downfalls with
people training horses is they teach themto say no, especially colts. Okay,

(47:50):
if you teach one to say no, and you teach one to be
skeptical, because everything you give themis basically you're asking them a question until
they're totally solid at what they're doing. You know, I pull the right
rain, will you give over hereto the right you know, whatever,
doesn't matter what you do. You'reasking a question, will you do this?

(48:14):
You know? And when you getthem saying no or why? You
know, like like again, goingback, some little kid, you know,
you say, hey, would youuh, you know, pick up
your coat? Can over there?Why? Well, that's an unruly little

(48:34):
son of a gun. I mean, you know, after a while you
want to knock the crap out ofhim. Okay, And I'm not condoning
knocking your children around, but stillyou know, But but I am saying,
there's twenty seven but they might stilltake her for that, but they
But you know the thing is isso many people have to get something they

(48:55):
get something saying no, or evenin relationships, they teach somebody to say
no, or they get somebody sayingno, or if people get skeptical and
everything's why and everything is suspicious andeverything else. Now again going back,
that is part of environmental They didn'tget there on their own. We can

(49:17):
go back, you know, allof that. But with horses, if
you teach a colt say yes,and he learns how to say yes,
you can teach it. So I'mgoing to do anything, you know,
because at the end of the day, you know, and we talk about
it, and it doesn't matter whatyou're doing as far as what discipline.

(49:40):
Okay, at the end of theday, they just have to say yes.
And in most discipline it's come tothe pull and get off the foot.
I mean, it ends up beingthat simple to start with. Now
you can take it wherever you wantto whatever refined level you want. But
if they won't come to the pulland they won't get off the leg,

(50:04):
you're pretty much screwed. Yep.I think that's where a lot of people
have a hard time. And thenext level with their horsemanship is they just
don't know how to get it tosay yes. To them, yeah,
and then the frustration sets in orwhatever. But you also, you cannot
ask somebody to do something you havenot given them the skills to give you

(50:25):
a successful result. You can't ahorse either. You can't ask a kid
who's never had a math lesson togive you the correct answers in a math
quiz. You know, same thing. Horses. They don't give them the

(50:45):
tools. Now when you've given whenyou've given one the tools and they know
what they're supposed to be doing,and they say no, for me,
it's on okay. But that's whenI know they know what I'm talking about.
You know. Otherwise, if youare if you have not been clear

(51:12):
in your education to that point,and you are you and they don't know
what you're asking, you have noright to get after him for that human
or horse, you know. Imean some bad boss that wants to get

(51:32):
somebody or yell at somebody over somethingthat they should have taught them how to
do, or they know that thisperson knows how to do, you know,
but they never gave him the skills. I mean, that would be
a bad boss. You know.Well, that's a bad horse trader.
It's no different to me. Athing bad management's bad man. Yeah,

(51:57):
and we go look at you know, and we go look get and I
think going back to to the peoplethat are at a more novice level that
want to that want to do thisthat I am all about. I mean,
you know, I think that youknow, the more people we have

(52:21):
wanting to do what we do,whatever that is, is a good thing,
okay. And I don't want tomake it sound elitist in any way.
And I think sometimes excuse me,if we're not careful, we can
well, especially with the barrier ofentry being where it now is it certainly
feels like an elitist pursuit, yes, but it really at the end of

(52:45):
the day, it shouldn't be,you know, and there should be a
level and whether it's pretty much anyWestern sport now there is an entry level.
Okay, now may not be youknow, if you want to ride
rain cow horses, it's not theopen finals at the snaffle bed, Okay.

(53:08):
If you want to ride barrel horses, it's not the NFR. Okay.
That's you know, and people getto do in that and there's nothing
wrong with that fantasy of seeing yourselfthere, but that's not the entry level.
But you know, like Clint Eastwoodsaid, Manscott's know these limitations,
you know, and you've got tostart from where you are. But I

(53:30):
think that there which comes back toappreciating and focusing on the journey, not
the destination, because if you focuson the destination too much, the chances
you're gonna make it there get slimmerand slimmer because you aren't focusing on what
it takes to be there, andyou're not finding the joy and the piece
in that journey. I've had ownersthat come and rode with me and if

(53:52):
we could get this thing to slidesix feet, you would think they just
won the rain and fraternity because thatwas a personal accomplishment with them and their
horse, you know. And thosekind of people are We need those people
and we need to keep cultivating thosekind of people. But I you know,

(54:14):
and I think too that if that'sthat's another thing that you know,
I think a lot of people don'tthink about that I think would really help
them is they want to maybe goride with who's trendy at the time.
You know, they open up thebook and they say well, or they

(54:35):
get on the computer or whatever.I mean, they drug me kicking and
screaming into the twenty first century,as my daughter can attest to. So
you know, I still like,we'll go look at the book or whatever,
you know, But anyway, youknow they want to ride with the
top five money earners of the yearor whatever. Well, you know,
that person may not even be ableto tell you what they do because they've

(54:57):
got so much natural instinct and feeland talent and this and that. You
know, you maybe need more ofa coach, and you know, and
I think that's where they think.They automatically assume that that person is the
best coach. No, how manySuper Bowl MVP players ever made good coaches?

(55:22):
Can you think of one? I'mno football historian, but I don't
know one? Yeah or whatever?Title? Is there one? I mean,
you would know your sports guy bigtime. I mean very few.
Wouldn't there be ty? Yeah?I mean, or or in any take
it to any sport. I thinkreally only the NBA can really vouch for

(55:43):
that. But that's about it.Yeah, just basketball, But that's no
other sport really has anything like that. But I mean, you go look
at your Hall of Fame coaches,very few of them. Most of them
didn't even play right, Ty,they played high school college they always yeah,
they played either in high school orvery Yeah, but I mean,
but I mean at a high professionally, they were always always a coach at

(56:06):
some point they were like you know, and they are Hall of Fame coaches,
you know, But that's a differentskill set completely. It's a different
skill set being able to look atyou and tell you what you're doing wrong,
what's your horses doing wrong, andgo from there and be able to

(56:28):
rather than because I've been and andwhat's going to work for you? You
know, that's a different person.And I think sometimes too those people get
unfortunately get overlooked. They do,yeah, they really do. I mean
there's certain places for them maybe,but they certainly aren't in the limelight the

(56:49):
way they should be honored. TheyI mean there's coaches of the years and
trainers of the years and things likethat for different things. But I mean
we should certainly be honoring and fosteringa healthy appreciation for that, I know,
the individual appreciation, but yeah,I mean it is that is right
and true, and it's important,yeah, because you know, there's also
there's not to be able to see. But you know, I I do

(57:15):
a lot of I do a lotof broadcasting too, and that is,
you know, it's part of thatdeal to be able to see what's going
on in a split second and verbalizeit and verbalize it. That is a
completely different skill set than say,being a really good horse trainer or a

(57:37):
showman. And sometimes being a reallygood horse trainer and being a showman or
a competitor is two different skill sets. Absolutely, you know, so and
it's but that person, so,you know, I mean, which I
guess is you know, I'm I'mprobably I'm thinking about getting more into the

(58:00):
lesson. I mean, I stillI have a burning desire to compete.
You know, you can't take acompetitor out of the arena. I have
a burning desire to compete, andI want to keep doing what I'm doing.
But I also have I'm having alittle more of a desire to do

(58:22):
more of a coaching lesson thing withpeople and as I've and different disciplines too.
But I think that that is adeal where you can look at somebody
and not just tell them what youwould do. What do you want this
horse to do? What is thishorse doing that you're not doing or that

(58:44):
he's not doing? For you.And the thing is is there's not a
lot of people that know how ahorse's mind work and how their body works.
And if you know that, thenyou can help that person get the
results they want because at the endof the day, if they want to

(59:05):
write it, if they want toshow it, if they want to compete
on it, whatever it is,they have to be able to do it.
It's not going to be you know, I can't ride like pick somebody
that's really good. You know,as soon as I start trying to ride
like that person, I'm in alittle bit of trouble because they're them.
I'm me, and like they say, you gotta do you, you know.

(59:29):
But but I think that that's athat's a really thing that people need
to look at and go right.Writing with other people is very important,
no matter what discipline you're in.So yeah, absolutely, yeah, And
you just have to drop whatever perceivedego you may have or or whatever vision

(59:50):
of yourself you have, and bea novice and everything constantly and just absorb.
There's so much you can learn aboutthe same thing from so many different
people. It's unbelievable what you canlearn about the same thing a hundred different
people will show you a hundred differentways how to set a pin down.
For God's sakes, imagine what youcan learn about horse training well. And

(01:00:13):
I think everything is constantly evolving,you know, and if you're not evolving
with it, then you're going toget left behind. I mean, it
doesn't matter what we're talking about oreven in life, you know. And
I think that if you're not,you know that old deal about if you're

(01:00:36):
standing still, you're going backwards.You know, you have to keep evolving.
And I don't, I don't carewhat you're doing to me. I
mean, I'm sure you know,I'm sure I would bet you study other
podcasts. Yeah yeah, I meannot Western ones, but but other like
the the highest level speakers. Imean, that's certainly one of the things

(01:00:58):
that is an Horton thing to me, is continually evolving what you know,
how much you know, and theways that you can bring it into intelligent
conversation to make it engaging for people, you know what I mean. And
it doesn't matter if you're talking abouthorses or pick a topic. Being able
to create an engaging environment where someonewill listen to a long form conversation with
someone like yourself and someone like myselfis something you have to continue to evolve.

(01:01:23):
I don't crack nearly as many jokesas I used to, you know
what I mean. So of coursewe've been living in like what feels like
a very dark time period. SoI've tried to change the method of the
show a little bit. But yeah, you do. You evolve, and
you try to get better, andyou try to create more value with what

(01:01:43):
you're doing. And the only wayyou can do that is by evolving,
right, Yeah, well, andand and and like what you said about
the cracking of the jokes and everythingelse, something you learned, Yeah that
you know, maybe maybe my audiencedoesn't want this as much or whatever.
I don't know, but you know, I mean, but again, you
know, it's it's it's if youhave to, you have to keep moving

(01:02:08):
forward, and and it's hard.Sometimes it's hard to move forward. I
mean, I've been through you know, which I don't want to dwell on
this. It's just something that iswhat it is, because it's part of
my story of my life. Youknow, I've had some health issues,
you know, um that we're difficultto come back from, but by God,

(01:02:32):
we just put our head down andwe keep going, you know,
and it's not always easy, butwe have to we have to keep We
have to just keep going the bestwe can. And sometimes, you know,
we don't get there at the ratewe want, and we don't improve
at the rate we want, andwe don't get all of that. But

(01:02:54):
we you know, as long aswe are trying and we can look back
and say we did the best wecould that day, then I think we've
got to be good with ourselves.Yeah, you know, Jordan, I
don't know if you if Jordan Petersonis, but Jordan Peterson has a great
line about putting like the heaviest conceivableload that you as a person can carry,

(01:03:16):
carry that, take that responsibility andcarry that. And that's one of
interesting things about training horses is youmust do that. I mean, you
absolutely must take on the most youpossibly can for a multitude of reasons,
carry that sometimes for the rest ofyour life. And I think that's that's
being a successful human being. Didyou take the most that you possibly could

(01:03:42):
on the chin on your back andcarry that day after day, no matter
what you had to step over whilecarrying that load. Health issues, failures
in the arena, financial problems,you know, a lot of people have
been through a lot of terrible things. You were just telling me about a
guy and you know, losing achild and could you imagine that or you
know, most people can't imagine thethings you've went through. And other people

(01:04:04):
and it's not necessarily people get attachedto their their traumas too, and like
you know, they use them asan excuse for why they dropped that load
and gave up on it. Andit's like to be a successful human being
on just a horse trainer, nomatter what bleeding feet, hurt lungs.

(01:04:26):
You don't put down the load.You carry it the whole time. No,
I think that's what makes you fulfilledas a person. Yeah, well,
I mean, and that's a goodpoint, and I've actually not heard
it put that way, but thatmakes that makes a lot of sense,
you know, And you know,there's so much negativity around us. But

(01:04:48):
I think sometimes we think there's somemagical place we can get that there's not
going to be any negative thing aroundus, that bad things aren't going to
happen. That's opening in our society, and that's not that's just not possible.
What it is is where you talkedabout picking up the load? How

(01:05:09):
are you going to deal with it? What are you going to do?
How many times you're gonna get up? One more time? Then you're knocked
down. It's all one more time. That's all you got, one more
time. Sometimes, you know,I think that that and that's in some
of Sometimes in my life it's easyto get We all go through a point

(01:05:30):
where oh what was me? Orwe're feeling sorry for ourselves or and maybe
or maybe we're not feeling sorry forourselves. Maybe it's that bad. I
don't know. I mean, youknow, I don't claim to be the
all knowing whatever of everything. Imean some people like say, well,
you sure act like you know,you sure act like you are most of

(01:05:53):
the time. You imagine, gota damn opinion about everything. Well,
yeah, just because I got anopinion about everything. I know. Everyone,
you know, their heads are bobbingup and down like they're going down
an old dirt road. But youknow, but you just have to um,
you're gonna be surrounded by that andyou just and you have to me

(01:06:15):
what what has helped me is Yes, that's bad. Now, Well I'm
I gonna do about it? Howam I gonna pick up that load.
How am I gonna get up onemore time? You know? And I'm
not talking about being uh from whereI am to you know, when you're

(01:06:40):
when you're laying in a hospital bed. Yeah, you want to be an
elite champion in the arena, butthere's a few steps between there. You
know, first of all, howdo I get up out of this bed?
How do I do this? Howdo I do that? And and
and you know, one day ata time, one step at a time.

(01:07:00):
And again, like I said,you know, I only got to
get up one more time than I'mknocked down, and that helps me.
You know. It's like when Igrew up. My dad, you know,
he told me, one time,clean on these stalls. I looked
at him, I said, allinstalls. I said, how am I

(01:07:23):
going to do that? You lookback at me, said one at a
time, kid. I mean,sometimes our life's like cleaning stalls, you
know, and there may be awhole barn of them, and guess what,
nobody's there to do it but us. And how are we going to
do it? One stall at atime? Absolutely? And I think when

(01:07:45):
we look, when we look,because because if we look at all of
it, it's overwhelming. You know, if we if we can break it
down and say, Okay, I'mgonna go from here, and then I'm
gonna go from there, and I'mgo from there and eventually pick up the
load what you said, and getthere yep. And what that, what

(01:08:06):
that turns into over time is alife worth having lived. And a lot
of people just feel hopeless because theywon't even start with that first step,
which is the first stall. Iwon't even start. There's like, oh
shit, there's three hundred of them. I'm never going to get there.
And it's like, well yeah,but because of that fear, because you

(01:08:27):
refue, and I mean, thisis something that gets me going, because
there's a lot of people that Iknow who do this is they find every
reason to not do to not pickup the load. I can't do it
because of this person, or Ican't do it because of that. And
then you look at some of thesepeople, it's like, well, hold
on, you've got every opportunity todo it, right. You know,

(01:08:48):
there's people who've done it who hadnone of that. I just I just
don't understand the mentality. But again, it reverts back to people being a
product of their environment. How manytimes have you thrown your hands up and
screw this? If you've done thata few times, a chances you're going
to do it again are pretty high. So well, and I've also too,

(01:09:09):
you know, and something that bothersme. This is a competition illustration.
When somebody quits on a run.You know, I pretty much sucked
the other day. I didn't quiton the run, right. I finished
it. Now, whether it's justin my mind or whether it's reality,

(01:09:32):
I never want to think that quittingis an option. Quitting is not an
option. Laying down is not anoption. And any time you do something
repeatedly, you get good at it. Anytime you you Now you might say,

(01:09:57):
with that being said, I'm notsaying there's not times when you're bashing
your head against a brick wall togo you know, maybe there's door three
feet over here. Maybe I'll hadto back up and go through that door.
You know, that's not what I'mtalking about. I'm you know,
sometimes we need to back up andlook at things and reevaluate and see if
there's if we're doing this wrong.But just saying I can't, I won't,

(01:10:24):
or that I don't want to dothat because that's uncomfortable. I don't
ever want to set a precedent thatthat's okay, because you know, like
hotel, you know where somebody saysthere's a lot of quitting that boy.
Okay, Well that a lot ofquitting that boy didn't happen at one time.

(01:10:49):
Going back to environmental training, youknow, everybody, Okay, go
see was It's amazing, isn't it? Howard could coming back to horses,
Hey, everybody, everybody agrees,horses learned by repetition, right, Horses
learned by repetition. Horses learned byrepetition. But somewhere they think they only

(01:11:10):
learned the good stuff. It's thesame thing with people. People learn by
repetition. Not just the good stuffyou do, you do the negative stuff
or the the things that create peoplethat quit, people that give up on

(01:11:38):
things. Enough, that's what youbecome because you get good at it.
I mean, you know, it'sto me a lot of that as far
as that goes. And and youknow, again I'm not not picking on
anybody, but again, the onemore time thing, that's why I go

(01:12:00):
one more time. I won't.I'm not quitting on this run. I'm
not doing that I'm not doing that. Why, I mean, if because
I don't want to set somewhere inmy mind and maybe that's just me being
weird about don't start it. It'slike a slippery slope, you know,
don't go there. But I justfeel like if if I don't ever want

(01:12:25):
to get good at that, no, discipline is kind of the key to
everything. And it takes discipline tonot walk out of the arena when you
know you sucked ass, to finishthe run, or to not pull up,
or to not get off or orwhatever whatever the insert horse related analogy

(01:12:45):
like we've been doing. You know, it's it's just the key to life,
it really is, is to justnot quit. So yeah, I
mean there's a million beautiful ways tosay don't quit people people don't like to
hear the words don't quit, Butit's as simple as that, don't fucking
quit exactly, you know, Andit's somewhere you made a conscious decision to

(01:13:11):
quit, right, I mean,at some place. If you get good
at it, that's a series ofthings you do, you know, and
you know you talk about discipline.I mean I am very disciplined about some
things and very not about others.Okay, like don't give a flying rip.

(01:13:35):
Okay, my focus is like youknow, it's like it's here,
and then I don't necessarily get theshiny ball deal, but like my focus
is right here. And then there'sthis other stuff that yeah, like whatever
you know, I mean, Idon't we have limited bandwidth though, right,
and you know you can't focus oneverything. Like this stuff actually applies

(01:13:57):
to whatever your path is, rightLike, there's a lot of outside noise
that can get in the way thatclouds your path. So these things that
we're referring to people are listening.It's like this is for the thing that
you're choosing to be or what you'rechoosing to represent or what have you.
It's like, yeah, like Idon't give two shits about basketball. I've
never gonna so I'm not gonna.I'm not gonna focus on it, you

(01:14:19):
know, or or things that don'tserve you, right, Like, it
doesn't serve you to start reading medicaljournals necessarily you're a you're a freaking horse
trainer. Yeah, and don't careand don't care. Now I won't want
I want access to somebody that's reada lot of them. You do different
things, but you know this,this only pertains to what you're like.
If if you're a horse trainer andthat's what you have decided that you're gonna

(01:14:43):
be. This is my life's pursuit. I'm gonna be it. You already
made that decision. You can't goback. It's you've already You've got your
time in and you've stuck to itthe entire time. And uh, maybe
maybe you decided not to at somepoint, but I don't know that.
Yeah, we'll we'll get to that. But until well, or Tyle,
maybe cut me off here, butyou didn't talk too much? Shut up

(01:15:03):
again. Our our whole median istalking. You know, people come on
the show, I'm like, didI talk too much? I was like,
well, thank god you did,or we wasted our time. But
but yeah, you know, Imean I knew what I was gonna be,
Okay, well, and also environmentally, I didn't have much choice.
Okay. Now with that being said, don't know that I wanted one,

(01:15:30):
Okay. I mean, by thetime I thought, growing up a Roger
Staubach fan, I really wanted tobe quarterback to Dallas Cowboys, Okay,
But by the time I was twelve, I knew that was never gonna happen.
I was too little, okay,and that was bad. Then I
thought it was really cool when Igo to them concerts and watched how much
the girls liked the drummer and therock band, so I thought that might

(01:15:53):
be cool. I might be adrummer and rock band. Never learned how
to play the drums. So youknow, through this this whole time,
though I was riding horses. Well, by the time I was fifteen,
this was it. This was it, and I never looked back. This
is what I was going to do. I had resources to do it,

(01:16:15):
you know. I mean my dad, like I said, he had one
hundred and fifty two hundred horses thereall the time. I mean, you
know, I never worked for anybody. I came with a very non traditional
path to where I am now.You know, the standard deal. You
become an assistant trainer, or youshould or you compete in youth and you

(01:16:38):
do this. And I never workedfor anybody, you know. I also
grew up in an era when theamount there was not there was not the
amount of education available that there isnow, and a lot lot of those

(01:17:00):
old trainers. When I grew up, it was like a big mystery.
It was a big secret. Theydidn't want to share any of their stuff
with you. You know, theywouldn't And a lot of a lot of
old trainers were like that, youknow. Yeah, I mean they didn't
tell you. You know, it'slike nobody told me how to train.
One of these things to do isfigure it out yourself, you know.
So they didn't want to give itto me. I took it from them.

(01:17:25):
I watched them. I soaked itup like a sponge. I figured
out what they was doing. Iwatched everything that they was all doing.
I watched the reaction of the horse. How did the horse react to what
they were doing? What do Ilike? What do I don't like?
What might work for me? Whatmight not? And I pirated from everyone
m that I could and made itmy own. And so especially like today,

(01:17:56):
I don't want to sound like,you know, like everybody gets to
a certain age where they go,oh, you guys got it so easy,
you know. I mean we walkedup hill five miles both ways in
the snow, you know, toget to school and everything. You know,
I don't want to sound like that, But the amount of knowledge you
can learn how to damn horse fromyour phone that yeah, you there's so

(01:18:17):
much, so many resources for freeout there that if you if you absorb
it the right way and implumence theright way. There's seven million, eight
million, nine million dollar cowboys postingon YouTube for free telling you what to
do exactly. So you know,I have I I really don't have a

(01:18:38):
lot of sympathy for somebody that saysthey don't know how to get started or
how to how to you know,get information. There's so much out there
now. With that being said,don't think you absolutely are right about all
that information on your phone, butyou better go grab the lead rope.
There's a big difference, you know, watching Yeah, you know, there's

(01:19:00):
a big difference from watching on ascreen somebody teaching a horse how to do
anything and getting on one and justthinking you're gonna be able to do it.
Yeah, so you know, butyou have to, um, you
know, you have to. Ican't, I think, And it's not
all there. It's not young people'sfaults right now. I don't even know
if that made sense, But Idon't blame them for some of their lack

(01:19:24):
of focus. I think it waseasier when I was young trying to figure
out on how to focus because Ididn't have all the outside noise. I
didn't I didn't have the distractions theyhave now. Okay, but you shouldn't
have to rise above it. That'swhat it is, you know. And
what I don't like is now thisidea that it is completely somebody's problem or

(01:20:00):
somebody's responsibility to imp pale this knowledgeinto you. No, just like that
horse, if that horse don't wantto learn matter, you know, you
have to whatever it is, youhave to crave it. And I mean
I know, you know, you'vehad a lot of you know, I've

(01:20:21):
listened to enough of your your podcastsand stuff like that that you know,
I don't think you've had any successfulpeople on here that when the conversation led
that way or whatever, didn't cravegetting better, learning something, doing something.

(01:20:45):
And like I said, by God, it wasn't a matter whether you
was going to give it to themor not. They it's gonna take it,
you know. And that and whatI mean by that, I don't
mean that in a bad way.What I mean by you take the knowledge,
it's your responsibility, no matter whatyou're gonna go do. I don't
care if you're gonna go be aprofessional person that whatever you know, it

(01:21:06):
is your responsibility to take the knowledgeto make it your own. You know,
to study and don't kid yourself.Learning how to train horses, there
is a lot of study involved,you know, not just in how you

(01:21:28):
want your program to be, whateverthat is. You know, you need
to learn about a horse. Youneed to learn how the mind works,
how the body works, how theneck sets on. You know, well,
how they move. You know alot of a lot of old trainers
believed you turn a horse loose.You watch him loper round around pen.
A horse will tell you how heneeded training because of how he moves,

(01:21:53):
where's his neck tie in? Ishe high headed, low headed? Whatever?
You know. But but all ofthose things, you have to be
a willing participant in your education.And I think that that's I think some
way because in some ways so muchinformation has become accessible that people aren't as

(01:22:15):
good as students as they should be, if that makes sense. Again,
it got too easy in that way. Oh absolutely, attention spans are shorter
and shorter, and it's them inprogram that way. But I mean,
you're you're right, and these theseare topics that we could sit and discuss
indefinitely almost because there's just so muchto unpack with all of that. But

(01:22:39):
you know that if you're thinking aboutyoung people who want to do what you
do, to kind of wrap thiswith a final pretty bow, what would
you what would you suggest they doif they want to do what you do?
You know, how does one persondecide the correct path? I mean,
what do you think if someone's like, hey, you got to give

(01:23:00):
this advice as the last advice you'regiving these little sons of bitches, Well,
you know, unfortunately or fortunately orwhatever, it wouldn't be what a
lot I mean, I wouldn't say. You know, a lot of guys
said, well, stay in school, don't do this. No, if
you want to do this, dothis. It's a great life. This
is wonderful, but you better craveit because with anything, there's going to

(01:23:28):
be times when you're gonna be youcan crave it and in something you're doing,
and you're still gonna wake up everynow and then go, you know,
why didn't I stay in school?You know? Why did I do
this? You know? But butI think where where it's at, and
it's not the same for everybody,but I think there is a few rules

(01:23:50):
again, go back to what wejust talked about be a good student.
It's not everybody else's responsibility to linethis out for you. You need to
line it out. You need tobe willing to work hard. You need

(01:24:11):
to be willing to learn. Youneed to be patient, you need to
be willing to be poor. You'renot going to you know, you know
you're not going to work for somebodyfor three months and say, now,
where's my a string of horses toshow run whatever. No, that ain't
how it works. You know,you keep plotting or wrong. Now.

(01:24:35):
At the same time, if you'reworking for someone who is not ever going
to help you get to that spotyou want, well, then maybe you
need to be looking around. Butjust because somebody's tough to work for doesn't
mean you need to be moving on. If this person has information you need,

(01:25:00):
if this person is helping you getto where you want to go.
You know, being working for somebodyis kind of like going to school,
you know, being an assistant traineror something like that should be looked at
more like you're going to college.You're not ready to make eleven doing this
yet. You don't know enough.I mean, sorry, you're a student,

(01:25:26):
you know, and you know toget a decent degree that takes four
years. Okay, don't tell me, Well, yeah I learned everything you
know in ninety days. Well thenI don't know very much, you know.
So at the same time, workhard, figure out and you and
realize that it's okay not to knoweverything, but you should know, you

(01:25:53):
know kind of what way you wantahead? You know, and be realistic
with yourself, you know? Orare you doing this because this is what
you want? Will you want todo this? If your picture is never
on the cover of the magazine,then maybe this is something you need to

(01:26:14):
keep pursuing. If you're only doingthis because you see yourself, There's nothing
wrong with seeing yourself at NFR.There's nothing wrong with those are good dreams,
nothing wrong with seeing yourself winning theSnapple bit for charity, winning ranning
for winning cut of charity whatever.That's fine. But do you want to
do it? Do you want towork this hard? If that never happens,

(01:26:39):
well, then get after it.But if you're only in it for
the win, for the for theglory, for the fame, for the
this, for the that, Idon't think it's gonna work out. Real
well for you, because it's it'stoo hard to get there. You have

(01:27:00):
to would you say about enjoying thejourney? You better make sure this is
a journey. This is a paththat you want. You better make sure
it's a journey worth stamping your oneway ticket on. You got it?
And then when you do, ohyour hat down and go and you know,

(01:27:23):
and no looking back. Hell yeah, I agree, And I think
that is a perfect good yest word. That was really, really a good
way to end it. Thank youfor coming, Robert, Thank you.
I'm really mad at your daughter andshe'll let you come sooner. Selfish that
one. This has been The Gauge, hosted by me Chance Conardo, produced

(01:27:57):
and edited by our guy Ty Yeager. Shout out to the executive producers,
Dustin Pointer and Cody Denton. Marketingand content produced by Riley Chone. Make
sure to rate and review this podcast, as well as follow The Gauge on
Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook,and make sure to subscribe to The Gauge
wherever you get your podcast. We'llsee you guys next time.