May 2, 2020 • 56 mins
“Change is going to happen from the top down, not waiting for a bad agent to get turned in to adult protective services, to then get prosecuted -that is not how change is going to happen. It’s really going to happen when the companies themselves start looking at those trends and the data and reining people in, that’s absolutely how it’s going to happen” - Shawna Reeves
In this episode of GET READY!, I spoke with Shawna Reeves who is the Director of Elder Abuse Prevention at the Institute on Aging. Shawna and I discussed best practices that insurance agents can implement to help reduce elder financial abuse. We also covered how older adults (and their families) can keep them from being the victims of financial abuse.
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Bio: Shawna Reeves is currently the Director of Elder Abuse Prevention at the Institute on Aging. Shawna has worked as a consumer advocate for twenty years. Her role includes creating an innovative and coordinated community response to elder abuse in Northern California, running San Francisco’s Elder Abuse Forensic Center and Multidisciplinary teams along with training professionals and the public on elder abuse prevention, response, and laws, presenting at state and national conferences on elder abuse trends and interventions, educating lawmakers and provide policy recommendations related to elder consumer protection.
Shawna has received numerous awards for her work and leadership including the Aging Innovation Award, Aging Achievement Award, Service Recognition Award and was honored with a resolution recognizing her contributions to the field of elder justice by the Commission on the Status of Women.
The Get Ready Money Podcast and its guests do not provide investment advice. All content is for educational purposes. Guest opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of The Get Ready Money Podcast and Tony Steuer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome
Speaker 2 (00:13):
To the get ready with Tony Stewart podcast in
partnership with insurance nerdstoday, I'm pleased to be joined
by Shauna Reeves, Shauna.
Good afternoon.
How are you?
How are you?
Good, good.
Thanks for joining me.
Thank you, Tony.
Uh, in this episode, we'll bediscussing consumer advocacy and
preventing elder abuse.
(00:37):
Shawna Reeves is currently thedirector of elder abuse
prevention at the Institute onaging.
Sean has worked as a consumeradvocate for 20 years.
Her role includes creating aninnovative and coordinated
community response to elderabuse in Northern California,
running San Francisco's elderabuse forensic center and
(00:58):
multidisciplinary teams alongwith training professionals and
the public on elder abuseprevention, response and laws
presenting at state and nationalconferences on elder abuse
trends and interventions,educating lawmakers and
providing policy recommendationsrelated to elder consumer
protection.
Sean is spearheaded the veteransbenefits protection project and
(01:19):
innovative partnership thateducates elders and their
families about scams associatedwith a VA aid and attendance
benefit.
Shawna is also active in thecommunity, uh, serving on the
California department ofinsurance curriculum board, tri
chair on the San Franciscodepartment on the status of
women's family violence council.
(01:41):
Uh, along with a number of otherthings is, uh, Sean has got an
amazing background and, uh,Shawna has also received
numerous awards for her work inleadership, including the aging
innovation award agingachievement award surface
recognition award, and honoredwith a resolution, recognizing
(02:01):
our contributions to the fieldof elder justice by the
commission on the status ofwomen.
So Shauna, what do you do withall that?
How do you summarize it whensomebody says, Hey, what do you
do?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
What do I do?
Well, first of all, thank you somuch for having me on the
podcast to many.
Um, it's an honor, and I think Itold you this already, but I
have your book.
I don't know if it's the onlybook that you've written, but I
have your most recent book.
Yes.
Um, what do I do?
A good question.
(02:38):
The elder abuse preventionprogram at the Institute on
aging in San Francisco has beenaround since 1984.
Um, and it's had many kind oftwists and turns and different
kinds of versions.
Um, well, all the time keepingit.
So it's saying name, um, butwhat we do now is mainly two
things do trainings.
(03:00):
We train, uh, what are calledmandated reporters for elder
abuse.
So those are people who aremandated by law to report
suspected elder abuse when theydetect it, the people who fall
fall under this category ofmandated reporter, uh, social
workers, nurses, and Californiabankers, most recently
(03:20):
investment advisors and brokerdealers.
Um, all of these people mustreport suspected elder abuse, uh
, to adult protective servicesor law enforcement.
And one of our main jobs is toan aging elder abuse prevention
program is to train people onhow to detect elder abuse and
how to do that reporting thatthey're required to do.
(03:42):
Um, so we do about 40 to 50 ofthose presentations per year,
inevitably come up for us.
Um, about the system itself,about elder abuse, we learn a
lot from the providers out inthe community that we train a
lot of, uh, new scans, um,things that we wouldn't
necessarily hear about becausewe're not doing direct service.
(04:02):
Um, so one of the main things wedo are these presentations, um,
a lot a third thing, actually, Ithink the other thing that we do
is we run the elder abuseforensic center, uh, elder
abuse, forensic center, andmultidisciplinary team for the
city and County of SanFrancisco.
Uh, we're one of four in thestate.
(04:23):
We're very proud of this.
Um, the four were started at thesame time, the same funding
source, uh, back in 2008 and hadbeen going strong ever since.
Uh, we meet every two weeks, uh,to discuss San Francisco's most
difficult to solve elder abusecases.
The cases are brought to us byadult protective services
(04:44):
workers who are just stuck andnot sure what to do, um, with
these cases and the peoplearound the table, we'll come up
with suggestions and case plansand support for these APS
workers so that they can helptheir clients.
Uh, the people around the tablein those meetings are of San
Francisco district attorney'soffice SFPD, um, the San
(05:06):
Francisco public guardiansoffice, um, Institute on aging,
uh, runs and facilitates it.
We also have any physician fromSan Francisco general hospital
and a, uh, Gerald psychologist.
Um, so a psychologist thatfocuses on the needs of older
adults, um, who is also employedby Institute on aging, who can
(05:26):
do neuropsychological testing.
And there are probably otherpeople around the table that I'm
missing.
Oh, uh, Neil Granger, who wasalso a guest on your program,
not too long ago, he is ourexpert on, uh, on issues related
to insurance and he's also amember of the team.
Um, and so we meet every twoweeks, um, for that.
And then every fourth meeting,we opened it up to the community
(05:49):
so that anyone can come and talkabout a case that they have, or
maybe learn about elder abuse.
We call that themultidisciplinary team versus
forensic center.
And in those team meetings,there's no confidential
information disposed at all.
Um, because again, the public isallowed in.
So everything that happens inthat room that day, um, is, uh,
(06:12):
anonymous, confidential.
Um, and then we also havesomeone coming from an agency
that does elder abuse preventionwork or something related and
give a presentation on kind ofwhat they're doing to prevent
elder abuse.
So those were our two mainthings that we do.
I can tell you about the thirdyear.
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Well, there's, there's a lot to unpack there.
Um, I know you keep a little bitbusy with all those different
things, uh, you know, and we'lldefinitely dive deeper in there.
Um, you know, one of thequestions I always like to ask
people too is, uh, especiallybecause we have some younger
people in the insurance nerds,audiences, how did you get
(06:53):
started?
How did you end up, uh, doingwhat you do?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Well, I liked so much that the name is insurance
nerds.
Um, cause I'm definitely anelder abuse prevention nerd.
Um, I really fell into thisprofession, um, so fortunate and
so lucky that it happened, butit wasn't, it was by chance.
I got my start working on fairhousing issues when I was, um,
in college as an intern and outof college, uh, working on fair
(07:21):
housing investigationsspecifically, um, so fighting
discrimination and looking atways to get people reasonable
accommodations for theirhousing.
And then I went to grad schoolto get my master's in social
work.
And when I came back, I landedat the exact same place, fair
housing.
(07:42):
I did find a job right away andthey hired me back.
I was like, okay, well that'sgood.
Um, and while I was doing that,um, I got a job at council on
aging, Silicon Valley.
Uh, they took a chance on me,um, to be a case manager for
older adults in the multipurpose senior services program,
otherwise known as MSSP, theMedi-Cal waiver program, which
(08:05):
means that elders with Medi-Calwho want to stay in their homes
and not go into nursing homes,get provided, supports that they
can stay and thrive in thecommunity with the help of the
social worker and the nurse.
Um, so I had that job and Ireally liked it.
That's how I discovered that Iliked was that there wasn't much
policy in it.
(08:26):
Um, I felt like I was kind ofdoing the same thing day in and
day out.
And I like to kind of do thingsmore on a macro level.
So they worked in transportationfor a little while, um,
paratransit more specifically.
And then I got a call, um, tocome back to council on aging
because they, this is the mainthing.
Um, they had gotten a grant thatactually combined my love of
(08:49):
housing policy and elderjustice, pretty sizable grant.
They wanted me to be the socialworker on that grant and work
with the law foundation, SiliconValley this way worked very
closely with when I was doingfor housing work.
So that was really the start ofmy consumer protection work and
right.
Completely fell in love with thefield is difficult, is that work
(09:10):
was, we were working on casesinvolving elders who had been
sold predatory mortgage loansand were getting kicked out of
their homes.
Um, it was really that programand those relationships that
made me want to stay in thefield forever.
Um, and it's just weird how itall came full circle, but also
like very nice,
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Definitely.
Well, you know, I mean, that'sso important that the work that
you do, and unfortunately thereare so many financial, uh,
predators about there.
Uh, so, you know, that brings upa question for me is, um,
insurance agents, uh, T to whatdegree are insurance agents, uh,
mandatory reporters, uh, to you?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah.
So your audience is a nationalaudience, right?
Correct.
Yeah.
And you know, I did try tofigure that out before
Speaker 2 (10:04):
[inaudible],
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Uh, so at present, so I can speak to California,
currently insurance agent,they're not on that list of
mandated reporters, but as ofJanuary 1st investment advisors
and broker dealers are, so Iknow that there can be some
crossover.
Um, and I tried to figure out ifother States had insurance
agents on their list and what I,what popped up was a giant list
(10:30):
from a law school that had everysingle, um, state on it,
including every category.
And I didn't have time to figureout, um, if insurance agents
were included.
Um, so again, I can speak toCalifornia, but I would
encourage your, your, um,subscribers to figure that out,
um, to see if their state doeshave them on the list of
(10:51):
mandated reporters inCalifornia.
Um, to my knowledge, they arenot, unless they are broker
dealers or investment advisors,
Speaker 2 (10:58):
That's, that's really important.
And, you know, I mean,something, you know, let me pose
this to you because I think thisis important for people.
One of the things that I'vealways talked about as best
practices.
So I think would you say wouldbe a reasonable best practice
for people in the insuranceindustry, even if they're not
sure if they're a mandatedreporter that it's in
(11:21):
everybody's best interest, ifthey assumed and acted like they
were mandated reporter.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yes.
So just because you're notmandated, does it mean that you
don't have the option to report?
And so yes, I absolutelyencourage people to report.
Um, there are ways that, I mean,it depends on the case, but you
can be open with your clientsabout, um, wanting to report.
You can actually help theclients file their own reports.
(11:49):
I don't want to get on here andsay, you know, just because you
make an, uh, a report to adultprotective services,
everything's going to be fixed,um, and wrapped up and me both
Thai and the other is going tobe fine.
Um, but it does help to makethose reports.
Um, only one out of 14 cases ofelder abuse are reported to
(12:09):
adult protective services or lawenforcement.
When we make those reports, it'shelping not only put elder abuse
on the radar, but help thoseelders access, um, supports that
they might not know about.
Um, I also, uh, and I, I thinkit's really important to, I just
pointed out that APS won't solveeverything for your clients.
It's also a voluntary service.
(12:32):
So if the elder gets a knock onthe door from APS services and
they just don't want toparticipate, um, there's no last
thing that they need to be ableto get the services social
worker can walk away.
And some people are just veryturned off by social services,
knocking on their door.
Um, people can be private orscared.
There are many factors that workthere.
(12:53):
Um, so what I also suggest isthat, uh, your subscribers look
into the, um, the S the statebar approved, uh, lawyer
referral services in your area,because a lot of times, elders
in addition to social servicesneed legal help.
And so if you can help themlocate the legal help, uh, that
can help a ton, um, for yourclients to get justice.
(13:16):
Um, if that's what they need,uh, far too many elders are
still relying on things like thephone book.
I even had a elder who got herattorney through the penny
saver.
Um, in the end, we were bothable to laugh about it, but, um,
uh, but that was not the rightdecision.
Um, trying to find your attorneyis a very difficult one and
doing it based on anadvertisement, um, quite dicey.
(13:39):
Um, so trying to find out wherethe legal referrals are, can be
very helpful.
Um, in addition to making thosereports through adult protective
services,
Speaker 2 (13:49):
That's great.
That that's super helpful.
So, you know, a question on thatvein is, um, where areas, where
insurance agents and insurancecompanies can improve their best
practices when working withconsumers and seniors,
especially,
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I mean, you want to be ethical if everyone you work
with, obviously I know inCalifornia, there are special
protections for senior insuranceconsumers.
Um, but what I like to suggestis that you just do whatever it
takes to make sure that whatyou're helping the elder with is
done in an ethical fashion, thetransaction.
(14:29):
Um, you can tell that, well, Imean, as much as possible that
the elder understands whatyou're discussing with them, um,
that you're not putting unduepressure on the elder or, um,
using arguments, like, you know,you get this insurance product,
then it'll will help you avoid anursing home and things like
that that are generally quiteuntruthful.
Um, so following the laws,
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Good tip.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
That's never one.
Um, there are trainings, um, onworking with senior consumers
that I think, uh, can be veryuseful things that just best,
um, kind of like the, theslowing down that can, does it
not always happen with thesenior brain, but it can make
it, so the elders just mightneed a little more extra time,
(15:18):
or they need someone to slowdown and not talking like I talk
a mile a minute, um, or theyneed, uh, yeah, just more time
to make a decision.
Um, those are all sorts ofthings that I think apply to, uh
, to all consumers, butespecially senior, uh,
consumers.
And again, there are specialtrainings for this, um, and
(15:41):
special.
I just definitely follow thelaws in Europe, um, specific
jurisdiction.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Well, definitely.
And I think one of theunderlying themes there, too,
that you mentioned early on isthat you should treat everybody
like that and treat everybodywith consideration and ethically
and fairly.
Um,
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Yeah, so
Speaker 2 (16:06):
It's pretty sound advice, and I think it would
lead to happy customers anyway,and it keeps your Eno claims
down at the same time.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Right?
Um, yeah, it's going to say,like, not to use fear as the
tactic, but, but there are waysthat you can abuse, um, an older
person that might not look superintentional, but, um, but in the
end, if you're, um, if you'repressuring them, if you're using
(16:38):
undue influence, um, the law onundue influence has recently
been updated in California.
Um, yeah, you could get intotrouble.
So I don't want to keep that inthe back of your mind as well.
Um, am I acting ethically, um,am I trying to get one over on
this elder, um, and doing it byexploiting certain
vulnerabilities that they have?
(16:59):
So those are all sorts of sortof things that you want to keep
in mind.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Well, that's great advice.
Um, and when I think everybodyshould put in practice, you
know, just, you know, especiallyfor elders, but for dealing with
any of their clients, if, if youhave to question anything that
you're doing or not be able toexplain it to somebody else or
feeling like, eh, it's not quitethe right thing is, and maybe,
(17:24):
you know, it's not something youshould be doing.
Um, so that's sound advice.
Um, so what are some of the maintrends that you're seeing now,
utter abuse, prevention andintervention?
It sounds like things arechanging and there's some new
laws going into effect.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Um, yeah, there are some trends in, there are some
new laws and I'm glad youbrought up the new laws because
it made me think of something Ijust left, uh, in terms of
trends, we're seeing much ofthis stuff moving online.
And even if it's not online, um,it's like a combination of
telephone and online, um,robocalls have gone through the
roof.
(18:03):
Uh, 70% of people recently whenthey were pulled by consumer
reports.
So they don't even bother toanswer their phone anymore.
Um, there were 54 billionrobocalls, uh, this year, um,
which is up from 48.
The previous year, I receivedtwo robocalls myself this
morning before this podcast.
Um, these are all sorts ofthings that I wasn't seeing.
(18:25):
Um, when I started this work, Iused to have something that I
called bring your mail toWorkday, and it was, um, would
have clients bring me theirscanning mail.
Oh, what, what nice days thosewere when we only had to watch
out for scams coming through themail.
Now, uh, everyone's gotten muchmore sophisticated and by what I
(18:46):
mean, cameras.
Um, so they're doing thesethings through the mail and for
the phone, um, uh, those arescams or just scam trends that
we're seeing that are.
Um, so on the ride that they'rebasically getting the ear of, uh
, media, uh, in a way I've neverseen before in our field.
Um, there's been a, I'd say achip on our shoulder a little
(19:06):
bit as a field that I've noticedthing.
You know, people don't careabout elder abuse.
Um, you don't see it in the newsnow, you see it everyday.
Um, and I think people do careabout elder abuse and, and there
are new laws that have beenpassed.
I'm thinking most recently, um,president Trump passed the, um,
the safe act, um, uh, whichprotects advisers from facing,
(19:33):
uh, liability for making reportsto say adult protective services
or law enforcement, if they wantto make those, um, those calls
they are protected from, um,from civil liability for, for
doing that.
Um, FINRA recently, um, saidthat, uh, investment advisors
are allowed to hold funds for 15days, um, before disbursement,
(19:57):
if they think that an elder isbeing exploited and then they're
also required now to ask theircustomers, if there's a trusted
person that, um, that they cancall, should something seem
like, should it seem like theelders doing something that's
not in their best interest?
Is there someone in their life,a trusted person, um, that can
be put in the file so that ifthat happens, um, they can be
(20:18):
contacted.
Um, those are all moves in theright direction.
I would argue it's not gonnasolve anything outright, but it
helps a lot.
Um, these are tools we didn'thave last year, um, on the
robocall front, the face act waspassed into law, and that
actually makes it so that it'sgoing to be a lot easier to
(20:41):
identify, uh robocallers um,through authentication,
authentication, um, methods, um,and it also increases the
penalties for robocallers shouldbreak, break the law.
So these are all positive moves.
Um, I know I've gone into seniorcenters to give presentations
and have been told, what are youdoing to fix?
(21:05):
Cause I know it's really, reallytough.
I've heard from seniors, they'llsay, you know, um, I got home
from the hospital.
I'm trying to recover from a hipreplacement and my phone keeps
ringing off the hook.
Now these are people who aretrying to get calls from their
loved ones and relatives andfriends who are checking up on
them, but it's frickinrobocallers.
(21:26):
So, um, so these have realworld, real life implications
that are outside of like, um,actually losing your money.
You actually lose your sanity aswell, um, to these calls.
But I think that anything thatwe can do to fight, um, the like
million things that I just threwyour way.
Um, but I think what I'm alsoshowing here is the enormous
(21:47):
scope of this problem.
Um, I mean, elder abuse is onething, other abuse incorporates
physical, emotional neglect,things like that.
And all I've talked about isfinancial, um, and financial is
like its own world and its ownkind of out of control world.
I would say
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Definitely.
I mean, yeah, it, it, when yousay that in given my own
experience, I would say out ofcontrol and fortunately sums up
a lot of it.
Um, do you think with some ofthe implementation of technology
that the insurance industry andthe greater financial services
industry could help, uh, slowdown elder abuse?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Um, I seen some attempts at helping, um, the
epidemic through technology andI'm hopeful.
Um, unfortunately technology isalso used in the ripping off.
Um, so it's a matter of fighting, um, the bad with the good
technology.
Um, there are some exciting newplatforms online for seniors who
(22:57):
want to help, um, like monitortheir bank accounts, um, versus
activity things that I reallywish the banks would just do
themselves.
You wouldn't have to pay a thirdparty.
Um, but, but things like thatcan be useful.
Um, there's also a, uh, debitcard that it's a lockdown debit
card, uh, for seniors that mightbe suffering from dementia or
(23:19):
maybe some other type ofcognitive impairment, um, who
want access to their money, butthey don't want access to the
money so they can use it on thewrong things.
So, um, they can't pay for a tonof magazines, subscriptions or
sharing lotteries or things likethat, their money, um, it's a
debit card with limits on howthe money can be spent and where
it would be spent.
(23:40):
Um, I think those are incrediblycreative ways of addressing the,
you know, obviously, um, everylittle bit helps.
Um, I'll go into, in a bit abouthow seniors can prevent future
harm.
Um, I'm going to talk about ishow elders, um, many who are
(24:01):
very private, um, might not beready to name their durable
power of attorney yet.
They're not sure who that personshould be.
Um, but they want someone justto kind of check in and oversee.
And so there's a thing called a,um, a read only bank accounts,
um, their access through readonly.
And that's where an elder can,uh, keep the bank account have
(24:24):
be the only one with access tothe money.
But someone like an adult son,daughter, friend, um, can look
at the account just to make surethat everything is legit.
Um, again, they won't haveaccess, they won't be on the
bank account.
Um, this, this won't be a jointaccount, but that, um, that
person can just kind of check inand make sure that things were
okay.
(24:44):
That's a read only option, notall banks offer it, but I think
it'd be incredibly helpful.
Um, other than that on thetechnology front, um, for robo
calls, um, a lot of appdevelopers have come up with
their own solutions and now thephone companies, um, have either
caught up or supplementing oreven adopting some of those
(25:07):
third party, um, tools.
Uh, one is called Nomorobo, um,all of this, I think, um, for
your subscribers, it would bebest if you checked out the
great work.
Um, uh, and I think that if youlook at their website, they'll
show you the different optionsbecause it depends which tool
you use depends on whether youhave a cell phone or landline
(25:30):
who your provider is, but thereare many creative solutions now
to stopping robocalls fromgetting to your phone, or at
least, uh, having fewer of themcome to your phone.
So I think that's reallyhelpful,
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Definitely.
Well, whether you're a senior ornot, I think everybody in
America has definitely hadenough of robot coffles and I'm
at the point where we don'tanswer our home phone anymore
because it's only robo callerswho have that number.
It seems like Exactly.
(26:07):
Um, but anyway, that'sunfortunately where we've
gotten.
Um, so, you know, with thegraying of America, do you feel
that the problem is going to getworse before it gets better, or
some of these new measures gonnakick in and help is, um, we
become an aging or we are anaging country.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
It's difficult.
So when, when you're looking atthe scans that are happening on
the phone and online, um, for alot of them actually younger
people are the, the vastmajority of people following
them are younger.
They're not older.
And yeah, it's an interesting,um, statistic that's come out.
Um, but older adults have thewealth in this country.
(26:49):
They tend to, they have a lotmore than the millennials that's
for sure.
Um, and so when they get hit,they get hit hard.
Um, and they're also targetedfor that reason.
Um, and so now you can buylists, they're called sucker
lists.
Um, if an elder, um, puts theirmoney or puts their name into a
lottery, um, like one of thesebig lotteries or sends money off
(27:11):
to a fake charity, um, and thenthey maybe do it a couple of
times.
They can end up being put on alist that then gets bought and
sold to other bad people whowill then try and look to them
for more donations.
And it just kind of spirals fromthere.
Um, those are some of thedangers that, that we're looking
at.
Um, I don't see much happeningto fix those sucker lists.
(27:34):
Um, a lot of it's undergrounds,it's hard to, hard to tell how
to tackle that.
Um, I, I want to be helpful.
Um, but I'd say that, um, elderkind has really just been
clobbered by this stuff.
Um, at least in the time thatI've been doing it, um, I mean,
you work in elder abuseprevention for as long as I
have, and you'd hope thatthere'd be some kind of the, the
(27:54):
ship would be turning around alittle bit.
And if anything, we're justseeing the financial abuse
taking off.
Uh, I think because of thatawareness and because the media
thing more attention to it, Ithink people are more savvy, um,
for your subscribers.
If you're interested, we put upsome flashcards on five top five
scans that, um, that elders tendto see.
(28:15):
We, we're all seeing what thatelders tend to see as well, um,
to help with that educationpiece.
It turns out that it's not allthat helpful just to tell
elders, Hey, watch out forscans.
Uh, you actually want to tellthem what to look for.
I think, I think that applies toall of us like, Joel, why are
your money overseas?
Okay, that's great.
Well, like what is a grandparentscam or what does a tech support
(28:38):
scam?
And so we created flashcardsthat are on our website to warn
people about that.
Um, one scam I wanted to talkabout and just telling you about
all of that things now thatwe've seen an explosion in is
the romance scam, um, which is,uh, scammers that use online
(28:58):
dating platforms to get at olderadults.
Uh, this one's really taken offand it's just super sad because
it's this combination of like anelder feeling lonely and wanting
to date.
Uh, but then not knowing thatlike people on online dating
sites might not be who theyseem.
And a lot of the same peoplethat target you with, um, fake
(29:19):
lotteries or IRS scams are thesame ones that are on these
dating platforms.
And so we've seen, uh,incredible amounts of money
being handed over, um, viaonline dating romance scams.
And these are people that havecontacted the elder and the
elders like never met them, butthey received flowers from them
(29:40):
and they receive tons ofmessages.
And so the elder can think thatthey're in the relationship.
Um, and then really a disturbingis when we see the elder
completely, um, like all oftheir money has gone all their
liquids and sometimes theirretirement.
And so the scammer will then getthem to leverage the home.
So they'll get them to take outa reverse mortgage and send it.
(30:01):
Um, those things are just so,so, so heartbreaking.
Um, and it, it just seems likeit's not just, I mean, it's on
the rise in terms of how it'sreported.
Like, um, it's being reportedmore and more to APS it's being
reported more and more to theFTC, but that's reports.
Like, I just think of so many ofthe elders who have done this
(30:21):
and are too ashamed to talkabout it have not reported it
it's actually really frighteningwhen you think about the actual
toll that this is taking, um,and how many victims are out
there.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, that is scary.
Um, you know, I, and I think thelessons too, for, uh, members of
the insurance industry wherethey could watch out for I'm
thinking right away, uh, I'msure you've seen this as policy
loans, uh, on life insurancepolicies, withdrawals on
annuities, and again, on lifeinsurance policies maybe changes
(30:54):
in homeowners, insurancepolicies, suspicious claims, uh,
on a homeowners insurancepolicy, additional insured
showing up on an auto or home.
I mean, are those some of theareas in the insurance industry
where insurance agents andinsurance companies could say,
Hey, you know, if we see thisscreen of, you know, the certain
(31:14):
data points on, uh, people'spolicies over a certain age, is
that something that theinsurance industry could
actively participate in usingADA?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Absolutely.
And that's where the change isgoing to happen.
Um, top-down not like waitingfor a bad agent, um, to get
turned into adult protectiveservices, to like then get
prosecuted that that's not howthe change is going to happen.
It's really going to happen whenthe companies themselves start
looking at those trends andlooking at the data and, and
reigning people in, um, that'sabsolutely how it's going to
(31:46):
happen.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
That's great.
Uh, just making a note, becauseI think that's so important that
the companies can, and agentscan take an active role that
they don't need to sit back.
Um, so, you know, speaking,which you know, is pretty much
everybody in my audience, uh,for the most part is still in
the working community or workingage.
(32:10):
And we all have parents.
Um, and I was thinking, youknow, like that debit card is
some, we had something similarfor my son when he was younger.
It is a controlled debit card.
Um, what do you recommend tothose of us who are working age
like you and I we're in themiddle?
Um, what, what can we do towatch out for our parents?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
The number one thing you can do is start having this
conversation now and not wait.
Um, so what I hear over and overand over again, um, again, like
not all elders are ready to nametheir durable power of attorney.
And for some, it's like a verygood thing that they don't
because they actually might beworried, um, that maybe that
adult center daughter is nottrustworthy.
(32:54):
They're just not ready.
There's so much out there thatsays you have to get a DPOA now.
Okay, great.
Well, if you know exactly whothat person should be, do it, if
not be very, very careful aboutthat.
There's a reason it's alsocalled a license to steal.
Um, but just starting thatconversation early can be so
important.
Uh, not treating it as taboo,um, telling the elder that, you
(33:17):
know, you're ready for theconversation when they are, they
might be the one hesitating tobring it up.
They might not want to be aburden to you.
Um, they might be kind ofnervous about discussing
finances at all with you.
Uh, it might be that your familyjust didn't do that.
Um, I have my own personalexperiences with this that I can
(33:38):
draw upon.
I remember, um, this is over adecade ago, but my grandma
really, really wanted to talkabout, uh, her living trust, uh,
at Thanksgiving.
Um, remember a relative tellingme how more, but that was now,
we shouldn't be talking aboutit, but I work at elder abuse
prevention.
I was very interested.
I wanted to hear like what wasgoing on.
(33:58):
And so he told me about whereshe was going for her services
to get this living trust moresuspicious.
Like, God, I was so gratefulthat she talked to me about it
because it turned out that sheactually had, uh, had enlisted
the services of a company thatwas not great, uh, that she did
not have an attorney writing upfor.
Living trust is actuallynotaries, um, in the state of
(34:22):
California, that is prohibited.
Um, and so in the end, what shehad done, that she had paid for
a living trust that was notgoing to protect her estate.
Uh, everything was going to gostraight to probate.
I was so grateful that shebrought it up and that we could
fix this before it was too late.
Um, and I bring up that example,um, because I think people are
(34:42):
just really afraid of theseissues, but they're also still
relieved when they get themtaken care of.
Um, and I really don't think youcan start early enough.
Um, which brings me to my otherpoint.
So a lot of this stuff is in theshadows.
People don't know where to go.
Um, I can generally tell peoplewhere to go because I've done
(35:04):
this work, but I don't, I don'texpect everyone to know like how
to find a good attorney.
Maybe don't use an onlineservice to get your living
trust, things like that.
Um, but I can generally guidepeople, but the more people are
afraid to talk.
The more they're going to bedriven into the hands of the
people who are not going to actin their best interests.
They're gonna open up the phonebook, they're going to find a
notary.
(35:24):
That's going to give them a junktrust.
Um, so it's, those are thethings that we want to avoid by
having conversations early.
Um, well, that's great.
Um, you know, one of the thingsthat I've started to tell people
is, um, I recommend
Speaker 2 (35:38):
A family financial meeting.
Is that something you wouldrecommend that people have
family financial meetings?
Speaker 3 (35:44):
We don't all have families for that, um, possible
or advisable?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, that is a good point.
Okay.
Point taken
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Working in this field.
Like you don't want to justapply your own family situation
to everyone.
Uh, but if you do have that, ifyou do have a family that would
be open to it.
Absolutely.
Um, definitely Teach people theplan.
So I'm not telling you anythingyou don't know.
Uh, but yeah, in the, in thiscontext, I think it's extra
(36:15):
important.
Um, and I think that, uh, whatyou can do as the family member
is just normalize it.
Um, don't treat it as taboo.
Don't treat it as more of itbecause the other minority, if
you're thinking of that, um, andjust be open to the conversation
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Definitely now, you know, for advisors who are
working, um, with clients, isthat also something that you see
is, is I know sometimes in mypractices there'll be one spouse
who, you know, that's the thing,they're the ones who deal with
the insurance and the otherspouse really doesn't know
what's going on.
Is that something, somehow theadvisors can work into the
(36:53):
conversation as clients getolder, they deepen the
relationship, you know, how doyou bring that up?
Is, you know, like, Hey, doesyour spouse know what's going
on?
I mean, you can't ask thatquestion like that, but how do
you get other interestedparties?
You know, like you mentioned,uh, you know, with the trusted
(37:13):
other person, how, how doessomebody go about doing that or
starting that conversation withour clients?
Speaker 3 (37:19):
It's a great question.
And as someone who's not afinancial planner, it's harder
for me to answer.
That's okay.
Um, I like to come at thingswith an air of curiosity.
Um, I don't want to come into ameeting with like, here's my
agenda.
Here's what I want by the end.
And I think that anyone who'smeeting with elders, um, would
(37:41):
be in a really good position ifthey, if they carry themselves
in the same way, because peopleare going to know when you have
an agenda.
So if you ask questions like,like, like you put a D does your
spouse know about this insteadof here's, your spouse should
know this, or what happens ifsomething happens to you then?
(38:02):
So those sorts of things thatare gonna cause people to be
very defensive, um, I would saythose are not those techniques
to use.
Um, but being just kind of openand curious and not thinking
that everything will be resolvedin one meeting, um, pressure's
not good.
Pressure is not good in thesales and pressures is not
pressured, not good in planning.
Um, but, but those just being anopen, open, um, type of person,
(38:23):
um, in those meetings, I thinkcan go a really long way.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah.
Well, I think you hit onsomething that's really
important is that it's, it's along conversation.
It's not a short conversation.
Um, and to continue just toeducate your clients, I think it
gets back to, you know, uh,whether you're consulting or
selling, um, and the nature of arelationship, if you value your
(38:52):
clients.
I think that you're going tocome off in that vein where
you'll be doing your clientsbetter service and what you'll
be able to help your clientsidentify some of these issues.
And do you also feel that as anindustry, that if we were to
better educate, um, our clientsand the general public about our
products and services that thatmight help, uh, with some of the
(39:15):
things you see,
Speaker 3 (39:17):
So working on that literacy piece?
Yeah, yeah, definitely
Speaker 2 (39:21):
People more financially literate.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Um, for sure.
I mean, I, I tend to be at thecamp that financial literacy is
like very important, but it'snot everything.
Um, and I get very suspiciouswhen I know you're not this way,
but like, Oh, we just need toteach people about these
products, then they'll just beable to make decisions.
Okay.
Um, there's more to it than thator worse.
Like if we just teach them aboutproducts and they won't get
(39:47):
abused, um, decent things.
Um, cause again, it's morecomplicated in that, but I think
it can help a lot, um, just tomake, um, contracts and products
and things that, um, it's justvery confusing with very opaque
language.
Um, just more understandable.
I think, I think that would help, um, in many areas of our lives
actually.
(40:08):
Um, but yeah, for financialproducts.
Absolutely.
And sometimes it can take alittle bit longer to explain a
product with an elder, um,especially maybe one who has had
a spouse who's done, uh, thefinancial planning and work in
the past, just as someone who,for whom English is not their
first language you might need totake a little more time.
I think it's really important toexplain.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Definitely no, I, I, I can see it and you know, it
was interesting.
I was talking with a client thismorning and he's, he's
definitely a senior at thispoint.
And I could tell, you know, thatover the last few years is that
the nature of the conversationshas changed a little bit and his
, um, his comprehension is alittle bit different and, uh,
(40:55):
you know, it may take explainingthe same thing to him a couple
of times or in a, in a differentway as rephrasing it, um, to
help him, uh, understand that.
And I think people need to keepthat in mind is that, you know,
yeah, it is financial literacy,but it's exactly, as you said,
it's more than financialliteracy is, you know, first
(41:18):
people do need to understandwhat you're talking about, which
is a good thing in anysituation, but then they have to
know what to look for and, youknow, what are the pros and cons
and what are the red flags.
And that, I think that if we doa good job with our clients, um,
in reviewing those things andhas an industry and educating
(41:39):
people about that is that, youknow, w we'll never get all the
bad guys.
And I think you've been veryclear on that in a unfortunately
that's why you're keeping reallybusy is there are a lot of bad
guys out there.
Um, and unfortunately bad girlstoo, so we'll be equal
opportunity.
Um, so, you know, one of thethings too you've been involved
(42:03):
with, um, I don't wanna havethis be a super long podcast.
Uh, but th there are a couple ofareas of love to just delve into
quickly is one is, you know,you've been involved with the
legislative process.
Is that something other peoplecan become involved with?
Um, do you feel you're making animpact?
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Absolutely.
Um, and that's why I do what Ido.
I love working one-on-one withthe elders, but it was really
hard to see the same situationwhere I began.
And again, again, thinking men,we can just knock this out with
this solution, um, or get theseelders together to testify for
this.
Um, so it's really tough to dothe one-offs, um, that weren't
(42:45):
one off to see it again andagain.
Um, and that's why I was somotivated to do policy, um, and
to work on those.
I think people can definitelyget involved.
Um, I encourage you to getinvolved.
Uh, it's it's not a simpleprocess.
Um, you want to, for sure, likefigure out the lay of the land.
You have a specific policy idea,want to know, has someone tried
(43:08):
it before?
Sometimes it's just, the basicis asking, Hey, someone tried
this before.
This happened to me a number oftimes, and you find out why
didn't it work, or maybe, uh,what hurt his chances that time.
But here's what you could do tofix it this time.
You want to see who else is, um,is working in the area that
you're looking at.
Um, I'm a social worker, but Ifeel like I, I can not just work
(43:30):
in my silo.
It's social workers.
Um, if I'm going to do this, Ineed to figure out what's
happening in the legal world.
Need to find out what'shappening at the state.
I need to figure out what'shappening with nonprofits that I
didn't even consider, like doingLGBT work, but that's exactly
what they're doing.
Um, got to check with, check inwith them first.
Um, and sometimes it's actuallya situation where you need to
(43:53):
defeat bad legislation.
Uh, that can be more importantin a lot of ways.
Um, and by bad, I mean,sometimes it's just the stuff
that does, it seems kind of likefluff, but it's actually going
to do a lot of damage.
And sometimes you'll see anadvocate with a really big part,
but Florida proposal.
Um, that's just not, not goodbecause it hasn't taken into
(44:15):
account.
And in the end, your opponents,we're going to change it
completely and take it as avictory.
So, yeah, I think it's a lot offun.
Um, it's about relationships.
You, as you said, working withclients is about relationships
doing policy work absolutelyabout relationships.
It's my favorite thing to do.
It's, uh, the thing that I thinkthat, uh, the elders I'm working
(44:37):
with, I've also gotten the mostjazzed about because they would
have a really bad thing happenedto them, but then they get the
chance to go testify about itand make sure that their case is
not forgotten and that it leadsto something really good, which
is protecting a bunch of otherelders from the same fate.
Um, that's, what's been for me,um, kind of the life-changing
part of this work and the stuffthat keeps me motivated.
(44:59):
So I definitely encourage morepeople to do policy work.
Um, but just like we said before, um, take it slow.
Um, you don't come up with likea brilliant idea and like it's
gonna get passed in a few weeks.
Um, uh, there's, there's a lotof groundwork that has to be
like, but it's, it's reallyrewarding work and I, I really
want people to get into
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Well, that's great.
And I think you also had a veryimportant point there for young
people, uh, who are starting outin the industry is, you know,
just because it hasn't been doneyet, it doesn't mean that it
can't be done.
It just hasn't been done yet.
Stay diligent, be involved.
Um, so, you know, with all thatyou have going on, uh, this kind
(45:41):
of, one of my standardquestions, how do you find
balance and organization in yourlife?
Speaker 3 (45:52):
Um, well, I have come very close to burnout and I'm
glad I didn't, and I seen a lotof people burn out.
Um, and I'm sad that thathappened.
Um, so for me, it's aboutkeeping busy keeping content
with, with other things.
I have a toddler, um, to focuson, um, like to do things with
(46:16):
him, to get my mind off, um, theday job.
Um, I can do that quiteregularly.
Um, but to tell you the truth,like could definitely be better,
um, at, uh, both kind of slowingdown and the organizational
aspects.
Um, I, that said, I think I havegotten better at it, um, over
(46:36):
the years, um, just because I'vehad to, um, take care of my
child and, and also, um, makesure that I can stay in this
field, um, without losing it.
Um, so yeah.
Um, I think that helps, I thinkalso having fun, um, when I'm
doing the work helps, it'sincredibly depressing.
(46:59):
So at, um, if you just kind ofare in it and not thinking about
kind of how you can changewhat's going on or, or like good
outcomes, um, at the Instituteon aging, people have commented
that my department, the LGBTQmen's department seems to have
the most joy and fun and, andhow it makes absolutely no sense
(47:21):
because of what we do is thestuff that we deal with is the
deepest, darkest stuff.
Um, but I tell them, that's theonly way we can do work.
Um, if we keep it light in ourinteractions with each other,
and of course these serious needto be, but, um, but I think
having a sense of humor is, isreally the way to go.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
That's great.
Yeah.
I think that's, that's animportant thing for all of us to
keep in mind is to have a littlebit of a sense of humor and some
perspective is, um, so thatthat's great.
Um, so, you know, what would beyour number one tip on, um, how
older adults and their families,um, and in this case, you know,
(48:00):
their advisors or companies thatthey deal with, how, how can
they help keep help keepthemselves or loved ones from
becoming a victim of financialabuse?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
I wish there was a silver bullet, um, above all.
I think that making yourselfvery aware of how an elder could
quickly become shamed, um,becoming a victim, even
potentially becoming a victim.
Um, you always want that to beyour framework.
(48:35):
So say an elder has wired moneyto someone who claimed this
happens a lot, actually, um,someone calls, they claim to be
the grandchild.
They say they're stuck in anoverseas prison and in order to
get out, they need to wire$5,000to this fake attorney who then
they also put on the phone, um,uh, when elders do that.
(49:00):
Um, so it's very crucial thatwhen they come to you to tell
them that this has happened,that absolutely no judgment and
shaming happens.
So you might, you might notunderstand why your loved one
did this, uh, seems kind ofloony.
Um, but you're, you weren't intheir shoes.
You didn't get that phone callwhere the person was crying.
Um, and the elder actuallythought it was their grandson.
(49:24):
And then they had a lot ofidentifying information about
the elder and the grandson,probably because they scoured
Facebook, um, and figured thisstuff out.
Um, so if an elder family lovedone reports to you that doesn't
happen to them, just make surethat everything you say does not
make them feel more shame aboutwhat happened, because that will
have the effect of closing offfor their conversation, making
(49:47):
it very difficult to help withthe present situation.
It's just gonna, just gonnacause a world of hurt, um,
elders who come forward.
I consider them very brave, um,uh, in a lot of ways, um, cause
they're facing that shame.
Um, I can use an example, um, ofa loved one in my own family.
(50:10):
Uh, once we found out about thevictimization, um, kind of worst
fear scenario started happening.
Like she was very worried thatit's, we found out that this had
happened, that she would losethe ability to, um, manage her
own affairs, even drive her caror things like that.
Um, and I mean, she had a rightto be concerned.
(50:33):
The family got much more, um,kind of hands-on about like
controlling the bank account andthinking about whether she
should drive.
Um, so there are all sorts ofreasons that elders are not
going to want to discuss thesesituations with their family
members.
And again, I mean, eitherpotential for victimization
planning or once, um, somethingactually has happened with elder
, the very shame.
(50:54):
So just when you're having thoseconversations, you just want to
be the most present, um, likeattentive, like not judgemental
person that you can be for them,even if inside you're really
frustrated, um, because notabout you and it'll just help so
much with that future planningand with the others comfort and,
(51:16):
um, all sorts of things.
It's just going to make for abetter working relationship with
your loved one down the road.
Um, it's just, it's just goingto help.
So I think that, um, if thenumber one thing you can do, um,
listen, be thoughtful, be lovingand don't, don't make it so that
they retreat into their shameeven more than they already
have.
Um, second thing obviously isplanning, but, um, there's so
(51:37):
much that goes into planning.
So, um, um, I can't say onething or the other durable power
of attorney can help and it alsocan be harmful.
Um, elder might need a stateplanning, things like that.
Um, those are definitely allthings, but since you asked for
one, that's the one thing that Ican, um, I can offer kind of
like shame, your conversationswith him.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
Definitely one, I think even at the heart of that
is it gets back to a theme.
Uh, that's run through thispodcast that it's really about
open and honest, uh,communication.
Um, maybe honest isn't quite theright word here, but open and
full communication perhaps, um,without judgment.
(52:19):
And I think you also hit on thatwith money.
Is that just overall?
I think that's one reason whypeople are, uh, victims of fraud
in my experience is that, youknow, is there, they're just not
sure, you know, there's thiswhole taboo about money and
speaking about money.
(52:40):
Uh, yeah.
So, you know, I think, you know,this is such valid points.
Um, so, you know, we should wrapup, uh, where can people learn
more about you?
Um, you know, and I'll post anylinks in the show notes.
Sure.
Speaker 3 (52:56):
Google, um, sure.
Uh, it's due an aging has postedsome, some helpfully on our web
page.
I had mentioned those scanflashcards earlier.
There are a number of radioshows I've done that are about
their posts.
(53:16):
Um, I've written some articles,a lot of inner paywalls because
they're in journals.
Um, but I'm, um, to be aresource for your subscribers so
they can contact me throughemail or phone, um, especially
on the legislative stuff.
Cause I that's my passion.
So, um, people want to contactme about that.
Um, they can definitely feelfree.
(53:37):
Um, but other than that, I'd saythe resources on the Institute
on aging website are quite good.
Um, if you're interested moregenerally in elder abuse, the
national center on elder abusehas really great links about
like studies and researchinitiatives.
And I mentioned consumer reportsbefore because they've done such
strong ECC work with therobocalls, but consumer reports
(53:57):
has like really great, uh,references and things in general
on, on elder abuse as well.
Um, and I would say the, the FTCwebsite is quite good,
especially on things likeidentity theft.
Um, elders are getting theirsocial security, Medicare number
stolen all the time.
And the FTC has really goodstep-by-step tools on their
(54:20):
website for how to, how torecover after that.
Um, and then the last place Iwould recommend because they
have really good fact sheets ona number of, um, of issues
affecting seniors is theconsumer financial protection
Bureau, um, older adult section.
And they're putting out new factsheets, I would say like every
other week.
So,
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Oh, that's great.
Those are all some greatrecommendations now be sure to
list those.
Um, well just the, you know,that, that reminds me of, uh,
one final question along thatsame note is, uh, do you have a
blog or are you posting onLinkedIn?
Is there somewhere people canfollow?
Speaker 3 (54:58):
I do.
I don't post on it, but thereare the links to my articles.
Um, well, things that have beenquoted in some articles on the
LinkedIn.
So yeah, you're welcome to go tothat.
Um, blogging.
I've not done in a long time.
Um, I would love to do thatagain though.
(55:23):
I've written, they're floatingout there in the ether.
Like I did it like top fiveunder the radar scans.
Um, that's still out theresomewhere and sadly it still
applies even though it's like 10years old, they're still pretty
under the radar.
Um, but yeah, like nothing likecurrent that I've done blogging
wise.
Um, I've been on the donatingblog a couple of times in the
last few months, but, butnothing that's like, um, like a
(55:45):
regular blog for me.
Um, but yeah, there's, there'sstuff out there and again,
here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
Well, and I'll be sure to repost anything that I
see from you so that myfollowers CA uh, can also keep
up with what you're doing outthere and hopefully you'll come
on again and, uh, we cancontinue the conversation since
there's so many areas we didn'tget to today.
Um, so Shauna, thank you so muchfor joining me on the get ready
with Tony Stewart podcasts.
(56:16):
It's been a pleasure to have you
Speaker 3 (56:18):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, let's make a,
Speaker 4 (56:25):
That sounds great.
Yeah.
Welcome
Speaker 2 (00:13):
To the get ready with Tony Stewart podcast in
partnership with insurance nerdstoday, I'm pleased to be joined
by Shauna Reeves, Shauna.
Good afternoon.
How are you?
How are you?
Good, good.
Thanks for joining me.
Thank you, Tony.
Uh, in this episode, we'll bediscussing consumer advocacy and
preventing elder abuse.
(00:37):
Shawna Reeves is currently thedirector of elder abuse
prevention at the Institute onaging.
Sean has worked as a consumeradvocate for 20 years.
Her role includes creating aninnovative and coordinated
community response to elderabuse in Northern California,
running San Francisco's elderabuse forensic center and
(00:58):
multidisciplinary teams alongwith training professionals and
the public on elder abuseprevention, response and laws
presenting at state and nationalconferences on elder abuse
trends and interventions,educating lawmakers and
providing policy recommendationsrelated to elder consumer
protection.
Sean is spearheaded the veteransbenefits protection project and
(01:19):
innovative partnership thateducates elders and their
families about scams associatedwith a VA aid and attendance
benefit.
Shawna is also active in thecommunity, uh, serving on the
California department ofinsurance curriculum board, tri
chair on the San Franciscodepartment on the status of
women's family violence council.
(01:41):
Uh, along with a number of otherthings is, uh, Sean has got an
amazing background and, uh,Shawna has also received
numerous awards for her work inleadership, including the aging
innovation award agingachievement award surface
recognition award, and honoredwith a resolution, recognizing
(02:01):
our contributions to the fieldof elder justice by the
commission on the status ofwomen.
So Shauna, what do you do withall that?
How do you summarize it whensomebody says, Hey, what do you
do?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
What do I do?
Well, first of all, thank you somuch for having me on the
podcast to many.
Um, it's an honor, and I think Itold you this already, but I
have your book.
I don't know if it's the onlybook that you've written, but I
have your most recent book.
Yes.
Um, what do I do?
A good question.
(02:38):
The elder abuse preventionprogram at the Institute on
aging in San Francisco has beenaround since 1984.
Um, and it's had many kind oftwists and turns and different
kinds of versions.
Um, well, all the time keepingit.
So it's saying name, um, butwhat we do now is mainly two
things do trainings.
(03:00):
We train, uh, what are calledmandated reporters for elder
abuse.
So those are people who aremandated by law to report
suspected elder abuse when theydetect it, the people who fall
fall under this category ofmandated reporter, uh, social
workers, nurses, and Californiabankers, most recently
(03:20):
investment advisors and brokerdealers.
Um, all of these people mustreport suspected elder abuse, uh
, to adult protective servicesor law enforcement.
And one of our main jobs is toan aging elder abuse prevention
program is to train people onhow to detect elder abuse and
how to do that reporting thatthey're required to do.
(03:42):
Um, so we do about 40 to 50 ofthose presentations per year,
inevitably come up for us.
Um, about the system itself,about elder abuse, we learn a
lot from the providers out inthe community that we train a
lot of, uh, new scans, um,things that we wouldn't
necessarily hear about becausewe're not doing direct service.
(04:02):
Um, so one of the main things wedo are these presentations, um,
a lot a third thing, actually, Ithink the other thing that we do
is we run the elder abuseforensic center, uh, elder
abuse, forensic center, andmultidisciplinary team for the
city and County of SanFrancisco.
Uh, we're one of four in thestate.
(04:23):
We're very proud of this.
Um, the four were started at thesame time, the same funding
source, uh, back in 2008 and hadbeen going strong ever since.
Uh, we meet every two weeks, uh,to discuss San Francisco's most
difficult to solve elder abusecases.
The cases are brought to us byadult protective services
(04:44):
workers who are just stuck andnot sure what to do, um, with
these cases and the peoplearound the table, we'll come up
with suggestions and case plansand support for these APS
workers so that they can helptheir clients.
Uh, the people around the tablein those meetings are of San
Francisco district attorney'soffice SFPD, um, the San
(05:06):
Francisco public guardiansoffice, um, Institute on aging,
uh, runs and facilitates it.
We also have any physician fromSan Francisco general hospital
and a, uh, Gerald psychologist.
Um, so a psychologist thatfocuses on the needs of older
adults, um, who is also employedby Institute on aging, who can
(05:26):
do neuropsychological testing.
And there are probably otherpeople around the table that I'm
missing.
Oh, uh, Neil Granger, who wasalso a guest on your program,
not too long ago, he is ourexpert on, uh, on issues related
to insurance and he's also amember of the team.
Um, and so we meet every twoweeks, um, for that.
And then every fourth meeting,we opened it up to the community
(05:49):
so that anyone can come and talkabout a case that they have, or
maybe learn about elder abuse.
We call that themultidisciplinary team versus
forensic center.
And in those team meetings,there's no confidential
information disposed at all.
Um, because again, the public isallowed in.
So everything that happens inthat room that day, um, is, uh,
(06:12):
anonymous, confidential.
Um, and then we also havesomeone coming from an agency
that does elder abuse preventionwork or something related and
give a presentation on kind ofwhat they're doing to prevent
elder abuse.
So those were our two mainthings that we do.
I can tell you about the thirdyear.
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Well, there's, there's a lot to unpack there.
Um, I know you keep a little bitbusy with all those different
things, uh, you know, and we'lldefinitely dive deeper in there.
Um, you know, one of thequestions I always like to ask
people too is, uh, especiallybecause we have some younger
people in the insurance nerds,audiences, how did you get
(06:53):
started?
How did you end up, uh, doingwhat you do?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Well, I liked so much that the name is insurance
nerds.
Um, cause I'm definitely anelder abuse prevention nerd.
Um, I really fell into thisprofession, um, so fortunate and
so lucky that it happened, butit wasn't, it was by chance.
I got my start working on fairhousing issues when I was, um,
in college as an intern and outof college, uh, working on fair
(07:21):
housing investigationsspecifically, um, so fighting
discrimination and looking atways to get people reasonable
accommodations for theirhousing.
And then I went to grad schoolto get my master's in social
work.
And when I came back, I landedat the exact same place, fair
housing.
(07:42):
I did find a job right away andthey hired me back.
I was like, okay, well that'sgood.
Um, and while I was doing that,um, I got a job at council on
aging, Silicon Valley.
Uh, they took a chance on me,um, to be a case manager for
older adults in the multipurpose senior services program,
otherwise known as MSSP, theMedi-Cal waiver program, which
(08:05):
means that elders with Medi-Calwho want to stay in their homes
and not go into nursing homes,get provided, supports that they
can stay and thrive in thecommunity with the help of the
social worker and the nurse.
Um, so I had that job and Ireally liked it.
That's how I discovered that Iliked was that there wasn't much
policy in it.
(08:26):
Um, I felt like I was kind ofdoing the same thing day in and
day out.
And I like to kind of do thingsmore on a macro level.
So they worked in transportationfor a little while, um,
paratransit more specifically.
And then I got a call, um, tocome back to council on aging
because they, this is the mainthing.
Um, they had gotten a grant thatactually combined my love of
(08:49):
housing policy and elderjustice, pretty sizable grant.
They wanted me to be the socialworker on that grant and work
with the law foundation, SiliconValley this way worked very
closely with when I was doingfor housing work.
So that was really the start ofmy consumer protection work and
right.
Completely fell in love with thefield is difficult, is that work
(09:10):
was, we were working on casesinvolving elders who had been
sold predatory mortgage loansand were getting kicked out of
their homes.
Um, it was really that programand those relationships that
made me want to stay in thefield forever.
Um, and it's just weird how itall came full circle, but also
like very nice,
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Definitely.
Well, you know, I mean, that'sso important that the work that
you do, and unfortunately thereare so many financial, uh,
predators about there.
Uh, so, you know, that brings upa question for me is, um,
insurance agents, uh, T to whatdegree are insurance agents, uh,
mandatory reporters, uh, to you?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah.
So your audience is a nationalaudience, right?
Correct.
Yeah.
And you know, I did try tofigure that out before
Speaker 2 (10:04):
[inaudible],
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Uh, so at present, so I can speak to California,
currently insurance agent,they're not on that list of
mandated reporters, but as ofJanuary 1st investment advisors
and broker dealers are, so Iknow that there can be some
crossover.
Um, and I tried to figure out ifother States had insurance
agents on their list and what I,what popped up was a giant list
(10:30):
from a law school that had everysingle, um, state on it,
including every category.
And I didn't have time to figureout, um, if insurance agents
were included.
Um, so again, I can speak toCalifornia, but I would
encourage your, your, um,subscribers to figure that out,
um, to see if their state doeshave them on the list of
(10:51):
mandated reporters inCalifornia.
Um, to my knowledge, they arenot, unless they are broker
dealers or investment advisors,
Speaker 2 (10:58):
That's, that's really important.
And, you know, I mean,something, you know, let me pose
this to you because I think thisis important for people.
One of the things that I'vealways talked about as best
practices.
So I think would you say wouldbe a reasonable best practice
for people in the insuranceindustry, even if they're not
sure if they're a mandatedreporter that it's in
(11:21):
everybody's best interest, ifthey assumed and acted like they
were mandated reporter.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yes.
So just because you're notmandated, does it mean that you
don't have the option to report?
And so yes, I absolutelyencourage people to report.
Um, there are ways that, I mean,it depends on the case, but you
can be open with your clientsabout, um, wanting to report.
You can actually help theclients file their own reports.
(11:49):
I don't want to get on here andsay, you know, just because you
make an, uh, a report to adultprotective services,
everything's going to be fixed,um, and wrapped up and me both
Thai and the other is going tobe fine.
Um, but it does help to makethose reports.
Um, only one out of 14 cases ofelder abuse are reported to
(12:09):
adult protective services or lawenforcement.
When we make those reports, it'shelping not only put elder abuse
on the radar, but help thoseelders access, um, supports that
they might not know about.
Um, I also, uh, and I, I thinkit's really important to, I just
pointed out that APS won't solveeverything for your clients.
It's also a voluntary service.
(12:32):
So if the elder gets a knock onthe door from APS services and
they just don't want toparticipate, um, there's no last
thing that they need to be ableto get the services social
worker can walk away.
And some people are just veryturned off by social services,
knocking on their door.
Um, people can be private orscared.
There are many factors that workthere.
(12:53):
Um, so what I also suggest isthat, uh, your subscribers look
into the, um, the S the statebar approved, uh, lawyer
referral services in your area,because a lot of times, elders
in addition to social servicesneed legal help.
And so if you can help themlocate the legal help, uh, that
can help a ton, um, for yourclients to get justice.
(13:16):
Um, if that's what they need,uh, far too many elders are
still relying on things like thephone book.
I even had a elder who got herattorney through the penny
saver.
Um, in the end, we were bothable to laugh about it, but, um,
uh, but that was not the rightdecision.
Um, trying to find your attorneyis a very difficult one and
doing it based on anadvertisement, um, quite dicey.
(13:39):
Um, so trying to find out wherethe legal referrals are, can be
very helpful.
Um, in addition to making thosereports through adult protective
services,
Speaker 2 (13:49):
That's great.
That that's super helpful.
So, you know, a question on thatvein is, um, where areas, where
insurance agents and insurancecompanies can improve their best
practices when working withconsumers and seniors,
especially,
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I mean, you want to be ethical if everyone you work
with, obviously I know inCalifornia, there are special
protections for senior insuranceconsumers.
Um, but what I like to suggestis that you just do whatever it
takes to make sure that whatyou're helping the elder with is
done in an ethical fashion, thetransaction.
(14:29):
Um, you can tell that, well, Imean, as much as possible that
the elder understands whatyou're discussing with them, um,
that you're not putting unduepressure on the elder or, um,
using arguments, like, you know,you get this insurance product,
then it'll will help you avoid anursing home and things like
that that are generally quiteuntruthful.
Um, so following the laws,
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Good tip.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
That's never one.
Um, there are trainings, um, onworking with senior consumers
that I think, uh, can be veryuseful things that just best,
um, kind of like the, theslowing down that can, does it
not always happen with thesenior brain, but it can make
it, so the elders just mightneed a little more extra time,
(15:18):
or they need someone to slowdown and not talking like I talk
a mile a minute, um, or theyneed, uh, yeah, just more time
to make a decision.
Um, those are all sorts ofthings that I think apply to, uh
, to all consumers, butespecially senior, uh,
consumers.
And again, there are specialtrainings for this, um, and
(15:41):
special.
I just definitely follow thelaws in Europe, um, specific
jurisdiction.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Well, definitely.
And I think one of theunderlying themes there, too,
that you mentioned early on isthat you should treat everybody
like that and treat everybodywith consideration and ethically
and fairly.
Um,
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Yeah, so
Speaker 2 (16:06):
It's pretty sound advice, and I think it would
lead to happy customers anyway,and it keeps your Eno claims
down at the same time.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Right?
Um, yeah, it's going to say,like, not to use fear as the
tactic, but, but there are waysthat you can abuse, um, an older
person that might not look superintentional, but, um, but in the
end, if you're, um, if you'repressuring them, if you're using
(16:38):
undue influence, um, the law onundue influence has recently
been updated in California.
Um, yeah, you could get intotrouble.
So I don't want to keep that inthe back of your mind as well.
Um, am I acting ethically, um,am I trying to get one over on
this elder, um, and doing it byexploiting certain
vulnerabilities that they have?
(16:59):
So those are all sorts of sortof things that you want to keep
in mind.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Well, that's great advice.
Um, and when I think everybodyshould put in practice, you
know, just, you know, especiallyfor elders, but for dealing with
any of their clients, if, if youhave to question anything that
you're doing or not be able toexplain it to somebody else or
feeling like, eh, it's not quitethe right thing is, and maybe,
(17:24):
you know, it's not something youshould be doing.
Um, so that's sound advice.
Um, so what are some of the maintrends that you're seeing now,
utter abuse, prevention andintervention?
It sounds like things arechanging and there's some new
laws going into effect.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Um, yeah, there are some trends in, there are some
new laws and I'm glad youbrought up the new laws because
it made me think of something Ijust left, uh, in terms of
trends, we're seeing much ofthis stuff moving online.
And even if it's not online, um,it's like a combination of
telephone and online, um,robocalls have gone through the
roof.
(18:03):
Uh, 70% of people recently whenthey were pulled by consumer
reports.
So they don't even bother toanswer their phone anymore.
Um, there were 54 billionrobocalls, uh, this year, um,
which is up from 48.
The previous year, I receivedtwo robocalls myself this
morning before this podcast.
Um, these are all sorts ofthings that I wasn't seeing.
(18:25):
Um, when I started this work, Iused to have something that I
called bring your mail toWorkday, and it was, um, would
have clients bring me theirscanning mail.
Oh, what, what nice days thosewere when we only had to watch
out for scams coming through themail.
Now, uh, everyone's gotten muchmore sophisticated and by what I
(18:46):
mean, cameras.
Um, so they're doing thesethings through the mail and for
the phone, um, uh, those arescams or just scam trends that
we're seeing that are.
Um, so on the ride that they'rebasically getting the ear of, uh
, media, uh, in a way I've neverseen before in our field.
Um, there's been a, I'd say achip on our shoulder a little
(19:06):
bit as a field that I've noticedthing.
You know, people don't careabout elder abuse.
Um, you don't see it in the newsnow, you see it everyday.
Um, and I think people do careabout elder abuse and, and there
are new laws that have beenpassed.
I'm thinking most recently, um,president Trump passed the, um,
the safe act, um, uh, whichprotects advisers from facing,
(19:33):
uh, liability for making reportsto say adult protective services
or law enforcement, if they wantto make those, um, those calls
they are protected from, um,from civil liability for, for
doing that.
Um, FINRA recently, um, saidthat, uh, investment advisors
are allowed to hold funds for 15days, um, before disbursement,
(19:57):
if they think that an elder isbeing exploited and then they're
also required now to ask theircustomers, if there's a trusted
person that, um, that they cancall, should something seem
like, should it seem like theelders doing something that's
not in their best interest?
Is there someone in their life,a trusted person, um, that can
be put in the file so that ifthat happens, um, they can be
(20:18):
contacted.
Um, those are all moves in theright direction.
I would argue it's not gonnasolve anything outright, but it
helps a lot.
Um, these are tools we didn'thave last year, um, on the
robocall front, the face act waspassed into law, and that
actually makes it so that it'sgoing to be a lot easier to
(20:41):
identify, uh robocallers um,through authentication,
authentication, um, methods, um,and it also increases the
penalties for robocallers shouldbreak, break the law.
So these are all positive moves.
Um, I know I've gone into seniorcenters to give presentations
and have been told, what are youdoing to fix?
(21:05):
Cause I know it's really, reallytough.
I've heard from seniors, they'llsay, you know, um, I got home
from the hospital.
I'm trying to recover from a hipreplacement and my phone keeps
ringing off the hook.
Now these are people who aretrying to get calls from their
loved ones and relatives andfriends who are checking up on
them, but it's frickinrobocallers.
(21:26):
So, um, so these have realworld, real life implications
that are outside of like, um,actually losing your money.
You actually lose your sanity aswell, um, to these calls.
But I think that anything thatwe can do to fight, um, the like
million things that I just threwyour way.
Um, but I think what I'm alsoshowing here is the enormous
(21:47):
scope of this problem.
Um, I mean, elder abuse is onething, other abuse incorporates
physical, emotional neglect,things like that.
And all I've talked about isfinancial, um, and financial is
like its own world and its ownkind of out of control world.
I would say
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Definitely.
I mean, yeah, it, it, when yousay that in given my own
experience, I would say out ofcontrol and fortunately sums up
a lot of it.
Um, do you think with some ofthe implementation of technology
that the insurance industry andthe greater financial services
industry could help, uh, slowdown elder abuse?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Um, I seen some attempts at helping, um, the
epidemic through technology andI'm hopeful.
Um, unfortunately technology isalso used in the ripping off.
Um, so it's a matter of fighting, um, the bad with the good
technology.
Um, there are some exciting newplatforms online for seniors who
(22:57):
want to help, um, like monitortheir bank accounts, um, versus
activity things that I reallywish the banks would just do
themselves.
You wouldn't have to pay a thirdparty.
Um, but, but things like thatcan be useful.
Um, there's also a, uh, debitcard that it's a lockdown debit
card, uh, for seniors that mightbe suffering from dementia or
(23:19):
maybe some other type ofcognitive impairment, um, who
want access to their money, butthey don't want access to the
money so they can use it on thewrong things.
So, um, they can't pay for a tonof magazines, subscriptions or
sharing lotteries or things likethat, their money, um, it's a
debit card with limits on howthe money can be spent and where
it would be spent.
(23:40):
Um, I think those are incrediblycreative ways of addressing the,
you know, obviously, um, everylittle bit helps.
Um, I'll go into, in a bit abouthow seniors can prevent future
harm.
Um, I'm going to talk about ishow elders, um, many who are
(24:01):
very private, um, might not beready to name their durable
power of attorney yet.
They're not sure who that personshould be.
Um, but they want someone justto kind of check in and oversee.
And so there's a thing called a,um, a read only bank accounts,
um, their access through readonly.
And that's where an elder can,uh, keep the bank account have
(24:24):
be the only one with access tothe money.
But someone like an adult son,daughter, friend, um, can look
at the account just to make surethat everything is legit.
Um, again, they won't haveaccess, they won't be on the
bank account.
Um, this, this won't be a jointaccount, but that, um, that
person can just kind of check inand make sure that things were
okay.
(24:44):
That's a read only option, notall banks offer it, but I think
it'd be incredibly helpful.
Um, other than that on thetechnology front, um, for robo
calls, um, a lot of appdevelopers have come up with
their own solutions and now thephone companies, um, have either
caught up or supplementing oreven adopting some of those
(25:07):
third party, um, tools.
Uh, one is called Nomorobo, um,all of this, I think, um, for
your subscribers, it would bebest if you checked out the
great work.
Um, uh, and I think that if youlook at their website, they'll
show you the different optionsbecause it depends which tool
you use depends on whether youhave a cell phone or landline
(25:30):
who your provider is, but thereare many creative solutions now
to stopping robocalls fromgetting to your phone, or at
least, uh, having fewer of themcome to your phone.
So I think that's reallyhelpful,
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Definitely.
Well, whether you're a senior ornot, I think everybody in
America has definitely hadenough of robot coffles and I'm
at the point where we don'tanswer our home phone anymore
because it's only robo callerswho have that number.
It seems like Exactly.
(26:07):
Um, but anyway, that'sunfortunately where we've
gotten.
Um, so, you know, with thegraying of America, do you feel
that the problem is going to getworse before it gets better, or
some of these new measures gonnakick in and help is, um, we
become an aging or we are anaging country.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
It's difficult.
So when, when you're looking atthe scans that are happening on
the phone and online, um, for alot of them actually younger
people are the, the vastmajority of people following
them are younger.
They're not older.
And yeah, it's an interesting,um, statistic that's come out.
Um, but older adults have thewealth in this country.
(26:49):
They tend to, they have a lotmore than the millennials that's
for sure.
Um, and so when they get hit,they get hit hard.
Um, and they're also targetedfor that reason.
Um, and so now you can buylists, they're called sucker
lists.
Um, if an elder, um, puts theirmoney or puts their name into a
lottery, um, like one of thesebig lotteries or sends money off
(27:11):
to a fake charity, um, and thenthey maybe do it a couple of
times.
They can end up being put on alist that then gets bought and
sold to other bad people whowill then try and look to them
for more donations.
And it just kind of spirals fromthere.
Um, those are some of thedangers that, that we're looking
at.
Um, I don't see much happeningto fix those sucker lists.
(27:34):
Um, a lot of it's undergrounds,it's hard to, hard to tell how
to tackle that.
Um, I, I want to be helpful.
Um, but I'd say that, um, elderkind has really just been
clobbered by this stuff.
Um, at least in the time thatI've been doing it, um, I mean,
you work in elder abuseprevention for as long as I
have, and you'd hope thatthere'd be some kind of the, the
(27:54):
ship would be turning around alittle bit.
And if anything, we're justseeing the financial abuse
taking off.
Uh, I think because of thatawareness and because the media
thing more attention to it, Ithink people are more savvy, um,
for your subscribers.
If you're interested, we put upsome flashcards on five top five
scans that, um, that elders tendto see.
(28:15):
We, we're all seeing what thatelders tend to see as well, um,
to help with that educationpiece.
It turns out that it's not allthat helpful just to tell
elders, Hey, watch out forscans.
Uh, you actually want to tellthem what to look for.
I think, I think that applies toall of us like, Joel, why are
your money overseas?
Okay, that's great.
Well, like what is a grandparentscam or what does a tech support
(28:38):
scam?
And so we created flashcardsthat are on our website to warn
people about that.
Um, one scam I wanted to talkabout and just telling you about
all of that things now thatwe've seen an explosion in is
the romance scam, um, which is,uh, scammers that use online
(28:58):
dating platforms to get at olderadults.
Uh, this one's really taken offand it's just super sad because
it's this combination of like anelder feeling lonely and wanting
to date.
Uh, but then not knowing thatlike people on online dating
sites might not be who theyseem.
And a lot of the same peoplethat target you with, um, fake
(29:19):
lotteries or IRS scams are thesame ones that are on these
dating platforms.
And so we've seen, uh,incredible amounts of money
being handed over, um, viaonline dating romance scams.
And these are people that havecontacted the elder and the
elders like never met them, butthey received flowers from them
(29:40):
and they receive tons ofmessages.
And so the elder can think thatthey're in the relationship.
Um, and then really a disturbingis when we see the elder
completely, um, like all oftheir money has gone all their
liquids and sometimes theirretirement.
And so the scammer will then getthem to leverage the home.
So they'll get them to take outa reverse mortgage and send it.
(30:01):
Um, those things are just so,so, so heartbreaking.
Um, and it, it just seems likeit's not just, I mean, it's on
the rise in terms of how it'sreported.
Like, um, it's being reportedmore and more to APS it's being
reported more and more to theFTC, but that's reports.
Like, I just think of so many ofthe elders who have done this
(30:21):
and are too ashamed to talkabout it have not reported it
it's actually really frighteningwhen you think about the actual
toll that this is taking, um,and how many victims are out
there.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, that is scary.
Um, you know, I, and I think thelessons too, for, uh, members of
the insurance industry wherethey could watch out for I'm
thinking right away, uh, I'msure you've seen this as policy
loans, uh, on life insurancepolicies, withdrawals on
annuities, and again, on lifeinsurance policies maybe changes
(30:54):
in homeowners, insurancepolicies, suspicious claims, uh,
on a homeowners insurancepolicy, additional insured
showing up on an auto or home.
I mean, are those some of theareas in the insurance industry
where insurance agents andinsurance companies could say,
Hey, you know, if we see thisscreen of, you know, the certain
(31:14):
data points on, uh, people'spolicies over a certain age, is
that something that theinsurance industry could
actively participate in usingADA?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Absolutely.
And that's where the change isgoing to happen.
Um, top-down not like waitingfor a bad agent, um, to get
turned into adult protectiveservices, to like then get
prosecuted that that's not howthe change is going to happen.
It's really going to happen whenthe companies themselves start
looking at those trends andlooking at the data and, and
reigning people in, um, that'sabsolutely how it's going to
(31:46):
happen.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
That's great.
Uh, just making a note, becauseI think that's so important that
the companies can, and agentscan take an active role that
they don't need to sit back.
Um, so, you know, speaking,which you know, is pretty much
everybody in my audience, uh,for the most part is still in
the working community or workingage.
(32:10):
And we all have parents.
Um, and I was thinking, youknow, like that debit card is
some, we had something similarfor my son when he was younger.
It is a controlled debit card.
Um, what do you recommend tothose of us who are working age
like you and I we're in themiddle?
Um, what, what can we do towatch out for our parents?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
The number one thing you can do is start having this
conversation now and not wait.
Um, so what I hear over and overand over again, um, again, like
not all elders are ready to nametheir durable power of attorney.
And for some, it's like a verygood thing that they don't
because they actually might beworried, um, that maybe that
adult center daughter is nottrustworthy.
(32:54):
They're just not ready.
There's so much out there thatsays you have to get a DPOA now.
Okay, great.
Well, if you know exactly whothat person should be, do it, if
not be very, very careful aboutthat.
There's a reason it's alsocalled a license to steal.
Um, but just starting thatconversation early can be so
important.
Uh, not treating it as taboo,um, telling the elder that, you
(33:17):
know, you're ready for theconversation when they are, they
might be the one hesitating tobring it up.
They might not want to be aburden to you.
Um, they might be kind ofnervous about discussing
finances at all with you.
Uh, it might be that your familyjust didn't do that.
Um, I have my own personalexperiences with this that I can
(33:38):
draw upon.
I remember, um, this is over adecade ago, but my grandma
really, really wanted to talkabout, uh, her living trust, uh,
at Thanksgiving.
Um, remember a relative tellingme how more, but that was now,
we shouldn't be talking aboutit, but I work at elder abuse
prevention.
I was very interested.
I wanted to hear like what wasgoing on.
(33:58):
And so he told me about whereshe was going for her services
to get this living trust moresuspicious.
Like, God, I was so gratefulthat she talked to me about it
because it turned out that sheactually had, uh, had enlisted
the services of a company thatwas not great, uh, that she did
not have an attorney writing upfor.
Living trust is actuallynotaries, um, in the state of
(34:22):
California, that is prohibited.
Um, and so in the end, what shehad done, that she had paid for
a living trust that was notgoing to protect her estate.
Uh, everything was going to gostraight to probate.
I was so grateful that shebrought it up and that we could
fix this before it was too late.
Um, and I bring up that example,um, because I think people are
(34:42):
just really afraid of theseissues, but they're also still
relieved when they get themtaken care of.
Um, and I really don't think youcan start early enough.
Um, which brings me to my otherpoint.
So a lot of this stuff is in theshadows.
People don't know where to go.
Um, I can generally tell peoplewhere to go because I've done
(35:04):
this work, but I don't, I don'texpect everyone to know like how
to find a good attorney.
Maybe don't use an onlineservice to get your living
trust, things like that.
Um, but I can generally guidepeople, but the more people are
afraid to talk.
The more they're going to bedriven into the hands of the
people who are not going to actin their best interests.
They're gonna open up the phonebook, they're going to find a
notary.
(35:24):
That's going to give them a junktrust.
Um, so it's, those are thethings that we want to avoid by
having conversations early.
Um, well, that's great.
Um, you know, one of the thingsthat I've started to tell people
is, um, I recommend
Speaker 2 (35:38):
A family financial meeting.
Is that something you wouldrecommend that people have
family financial meetings?
Speaker 3 (35:44):
We don't all have families for that, um, possible
or advisable?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, that is a good point.
Okay.
Point taken
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Working in this field.
Like you don't want to justapply your own family situation
to everyone.
Uh, but if you do have that, ifyou do have a family that would
be open to it.
Absolutely.
Um, definitely Teach people theplan.
So I'm not telling you anythingyou don't know.
Uh, but yeah, in the, in thiscontext, I think it's extra
(36:15):
important.
Um, and I think that, uh, whatyou can do as the family member
is just normalize it.
Um, don't treat it as taboo.
Don't treat it as more of itbecause the other minority, if
you're thinking of that, um, andjust be open to the conversation
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Definitely now, you know, for advisors who are
working, um, with clients, isthat also something that you see
is, is I know sometimes in mypractices there'll be one spouse
who, you know, that's the thing,they're the ones who deal with
the insurance and the otherspouse really doesn't know
what's going on.
Is that something, somehow theadvisors can work into the
(36:53):
conversation as clients getolder, they deepen the
relationship, you know, how doyou bring that up?
Is, you know, like, Hey, doesyour spouse know what's going
on?
I mean, you can't ask thatquestion like that, but how do
you get other interestedparties?
You know, like you mentioned,uh, you know, with the trusted
(37:13):
other person, how, how doessomebody go about doing that or
starting that conversation withour clients?
Speaker 3 (37:19):
It's a great question.
And as someone who's not afinancial planner, it's harder
for me to answer.
That's okay.
Um, I like to come at thingswith an air of curiosity.
Um, I don't want to come into ameeting with like, here's my
agenda.
Here's what I want by the end.
And I think that anyone who'smeeting with elders, um, would
(37:41):
be in a really good position ifthey, if they carry themselves
in the same way, because peopleare going to know when you have
an agenda.
So if you ask questions like,like, like you put a D does your
spouse know about this insteadof here's, your spouse should
know this, or what happens ifsomething happens to you then?
(38:02):
So those sorts of things thatare gonna cause people to be
very defensive, um, I would saythose are not those techniques
to use.
Um, but being just kind of openand curious and not thinking
that everything will be resolvedin one meeting, um, pressure's
not good.
Pressure is not good in thesales and pressures is not
pressured, not good in planning.
Um, but, but those just being anopen, open, um, type of person,
(38:23):
um, in those meetings, I thinkcan go a really long way.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah.
Well, I think you hit onsomething that's really
important is that it's, it's along conversation.
It's not a short conversation.
Um, and to continue just toeducate your clients, I think it
gets back to, you know, uh,whether you're consulting or
selling, um, and the nature of arelationship, if you value your
(38:52):
clients.
I think that you're going tocome off in that vein where
you'll be doing your clientsbetter service and what you'll
be able to help your clientsidentify some of these issues.
And do you also feel that as anindustry, that if we were to
better educate, um, our clientsand the general public about our
products and services that thatmight help, uh, with some of the
(39:15):
things you see,
Speaker 3 (39:17):
So working on that literacy piece?
Yeah, yeah, definitely
Speaker 2 (39:21):
People more financially literate.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Um, for sure.
I mean, I, I tend to be at thecamp that financial literacy is
like very important, but it'snot everything.
Um, and I get very suspiciouswhen I know you're not this way,
but like, Oh, we just need toteach people about these
products, then they'll just beable to make decisions.
Okay.
Um, there's more to it than thator worse.
Like if we just teach them aboutproducts and they won't get
(39:47):
abused, um, decent things.
Um, cause again, it's morecomplicated in that, but I think
it can help a lot, um, just tomake, um, contracts and products
and things that, um, it's justvery confusing with very opaque
language.
Um, just more understandable.
I think, I think that would help, um, in many areas of our lives
actually.
(40:08):
Um, but yeah, for financialproducts.
Absolutely.
And sometimes it can take alittle bit longer to explain a
product with an elder, um,especially maybe one who has had
a spouse who's done, uh, thefinancial planning and work in
the past, just as someone who,for whom English is not their
first language you might need totake a little more time.
I think it's really important toexplain.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Definitely no, I, I, I can see it and you know, it
was interesting.
I was talking with a client thismorning and he's, he's
definitely a senior at thispoint.
And I could tell, you know, thatover the last few years is that
the nature of the conversationshas changed a little bit and his
, um, his comprehension is alittle bit different and, uh,
(40:55):
you know, it may take explainingthe same thing to him a couple
of times or in a, in a differentway as rephrasing it, um, to
help him, uh, understand that.
And I think people need to keepthat in mind is that, you know,
yeah, it is financial literacy,but it's exactly, as you said,
it's more than financialliteracy is, you know, first
(41:18):
people do need to understandwhat you're talking about, which
is a good thing in anysituation, but then they have to
know what to look for and, youknow, what are the pros and cons
and what are the red flags.
And that, I think that if we doa good job with our clients, um,
in reviewing those things andhas an industry and educating
(41:39):
people about that is that, youknow, w we'll never get all the
bad guys.
And I think you've been veryclear on that in a unfortunately
that's why you're keeping reallybusy is there are a lot of bad
guys out there.
Um, and unfortunately bad girlstoo, so we'll be equal
opportunity.
Um, so, you know, one of thethings too you've been involved
(42:03):
with, um, I don't wanna havethis be a super long podcast.
Uh, but th there are a couple ofareas of love to just delve into
quickly is one is, you know,you've been involved with the
legislative process.
Is that something other peoplecan become involved with?
Um, do you feel you're making animpact?
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Absolutely.
Um, and that's why I do what Ido.
I love working one-on-one withthe elders, but it was really
hard to see the same situationwhere I began.
And again, again, thinking men,we can just knock this out with
this solution, um, or get theseelders together to testify for
this.
Um, so it's really tough to dothe one-offs, um, that weren't
(42:45):
one off to see it again andagain.
Um, and that's why I was somotivated to do policy, um, and
to work on those.
I think people can definitelyget involved.
Um, I encourage you to getinvolved.
Uh, it's it's not a simpleprocess.
Um, you want to, for sure, likefigure out the lay of the land.
You have a specific policy idea,want to know, has someone tried
(43:08):
it before?
Sometimes it's just, the basicis asking, Hey, someone tried
this before.
This happened to me a number oftimes, and you find out why
didn't it work, or maybe, uh,what hurt his chances that time.
But here's what you could do tofix it this time.
You want to see who else is, um,is working in the area that
you're looking at.
Um, I'm a social worker, but Ifeel like I, I can not just work
(43:30):
in my silo.
It's social workers.
Um, if I'm going to do this, Ineed to figure out what's
happening in the legal world.
Need to find out what'shappening at the state.
I need to figure out what'shappening with nonprofits that I
didn't even consider, like doingLGBT work, but that's exactly
what they're doing.
Um, got to check with, check inwith them first.
Um, and sometimes it's actuallya situation where you need to
(43:53):
defeat bad legislation.
Uh, that can be more importantin a lot of ways.
Um, and by bad, I mean,sometimes it's just the stuff
that does, it seems kind of likefluff, but it's actually going
to do a lot of damage.
And sometimes you'll see anadvocate with a really big part,
but Florida proposal.
Um, that's just not, not goodbecause it hasn't taken into
(44:15):
account.
And in the end, your opponents,we're going to change it
completely and take it as avictory.
So, yeah, I think it's a lot offun.
Um, it's about relationships.
You, as you said, working withclients is about relationships
doing policy work absolutelyabout relationships.
It's my favorite thing to do.
It's, uh, the thing that I thinkthat, uh, the elders I'm working
(44:37):
with, I've also gotten the mostjazzed about because they would
have a really bad thing happenedto them, but then they get the
chance to go testify about itand make sure that their case is
not forgotten and that it leadsto something really good, which
is protecting a bunch of otherelders from the same fate.
Um, that's, what's been for me,um, kind of the life-changing
part of this work and the stuffthat keeps me motivated.
(44:59):
So I definitely encourage morepeople to do policy work.
Um, but just like we said before, um, take it slow.
Um, you don't come up with likea brilliant idea and like it's
gonna get passed in a few weeks.
Um, uh, there's, there's a lotof groundwork that has to be
like, but it's, it's reallyrewarding work and I, I really
want people to get into
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Well, that's great.
And I think you also had a veryimportant point there for young
people, uh, who are starting outin the industry is, you know,
just because it hasn't been doneyet, it doesn't mean that it
can't be done.
It just hasn't been done yet.
Stay diligent, be involved.
Um, so, you know, with all thatyou have going on, uh, this kind
(45:41):
of, one of my standardquestions, how do you find
balance and organization in yourlife?
Speaker 3 (45:52):
Um, well, I have come very close to burnout and I'm
glad I didn't, and I seen a lotof people burn out.
Um, and I'm sad that thathappened.
Um, so for me, it's aboutkeeping busy keeping content
with, with other things.
I have a toddler, um, to focuson, um, like to do things with
(46:16):
him, to get my mind off, um, theday job.
Um, I can do that quiteregularly.
Um, but to tell you the truth,like could definitely be better,
um, at, uh, both kind of slowingdown and the organizational
aspects.
Um, I, that said, I think I havegotten better at it, um, over
(46:36):
the years, um, just because I'vehad to, um, take care of my
child and, and also, um, makesure that I can stay in this
field, um, without losing it.
Um, so yeah.
Um, I think that helps, I thinkalso having fun, um, when I'm
doing the work helps, it'sincredibly depressing.
(46:59):
So at, um, if you just kind ofare in it and not thinking about
kind of how you can changewhat's going on or, or like good
outcomes, um, at the Instituteon aging, people have commented
that my department, the LGBTQmen's department seems to have
the most joy and fun and, andhow it makes absolutely no sense
(47:21):
because of what we do is thestuff that we deal with is the
deepest, darkest stuff.
Um, but I tell them, that's theonly way we can do work.
Um, if we keep it light in ourinteractions with each other,
and of course these serious needto be, but, um, but I think
having a sense of humor is, isreally the way to go.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
That's great.
Yeah.
I think that's, that's animportant thing for all of us to
keep in mind is to have a littlebit of a sense of humor and some
perspective is, um, so thatthat's great.
Um, so, you know, what would beyour number one tip on, um, how
older adults and their families,um, and in this case, you know,
(48:00):
their advisors or companies thatthey deal with, how, how can
they help keep help keepthemselves or loved ones from
becoming a victim of financialabuse?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
I wish there was a silver bullet, um, above all.
I think that making yourselfvery aware of how an elder could
quickly become shamed, um,becoming a victim, even
potentially becoming a victim.
Um, you always want that to beyour framework.
(48:35):
So say an elder has wired moneyto someone who claimed this
happens a lot, actually, um,someone calls, they claim to be
the grandchild.
They say they're stuck in anoverseas prison and in order to
get out, they need to wire$5,000to this fake attorney who then
they also put on the phone, um,uh, when elders do that.
(49:00):
Um, so it's very crucial thatwhen they come to you to tell
them that this has happened,that absolutely no judgment and
shaming happens.
So you might, you might notunderstand why your loved one
did this, uh, seems kind ofloony.
Um, but you're, you weren't intheir shoes.
You didn't get that phone callwhere the person was crying.
Um, and the elder actuallythought it was their grandson.
(49:24):
And then they had a lot ofidentifying information about
the elder and the grandson,probably because they scoured
Facebook, um, and figured thisstuff out.
Um, so if an elder family lovedone reports to you that doesn't
happen to them, just make surethat everything you say does not
make them feel more shame aboutwhat happened, because that will
have the effect of closing offfor their conversation, making
(49:47):
it very difficult to help withthe present situation.
It's just gonna, just gonnacause a world of hurt, um,
elders who come forward.
I consider them very brave, um,uh, in a lot of ways, um, cause
they're facing that shame.
Um, I can use an example, um, ofa loved one in my own family.
(50:10):
Uh, once we found out about thevictimization, um, kind of worst
fear scenario started happening.
Like she was very worried thatit's, we found out that this had
happened, that she would losethe ability to, um, manage her
own affairs, even drive her caror things like that.
Um, and I mean, she had a rightto be concerned.
(50:33):
The family got much more, um,kind of hands-on about like
controlling the bank account andthinking about whether she
should drive.
Um, so there are all sorts ofreasons that elders are not
going to want to discuss thesesituations with their family
members.
And again, I mean, eitherpotential for victimization
planning or once, um, somethingactually has happened with elder
, the very shame.
(50:54):
So just when you're having thoseconversations, you just want to
be the most present, um, likeattentive, like not judgemental
person that you can be for them,even if inside you're really
frustrated, um, because notabout you and it'll just help so
much with that future planningand with the others comfort and,
(51:16):
um, all sorts of things.
It's just going to make for abetter working relationship with
your loved one down the road.
Um, it's just, it's just goingto help.
So I think that, um, if thenumber one thing you can do, um,
listen, be thoughtful, be lovingand don't, don't make it so that
they retreat into their shameeven more than they already
have.
Um, second thing obviously isplanning, but, um, there's so
(51:37):
much that goes into planning.
So, um, um, I can't say onething or the other durable power
of attorney can help and it alsocan be harmful.
Um, elder might need a stateplanning, things like that.
Um, those are definitely allthings, but since you asked for
one, that's the one thing that Ican, um, I can offer kind of
like shame, your conversationswith him.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
Definitely one, I think even at the heart of that
is it gets back to a theme.
Uh, that's run through thispodcast that it's really about
open and honest, uh,communication.
Um, maybe honest isn't quite theright word here, but open and
full communication perhaps, um,without judgment.
(52:19):
And I think you also hit on thatwith money.
Is that just overall?
I think that's one reason whypeople are, uh, victims of fraud
in my experience is that, youknow, is there, they're just not
sure, you know, there's thiswhole taboo about money and
speaking about money.
(52:40):
Uh, yeah.
So, you know, I think, you know,this is such valid points.
Um, so, you know, we should wrapup, uh, where can people learn
more about you?
Um, you know, and I'll post anylinks in the show notes.
Sure.
Speaker 3 (52:56):
Google, um, sure.
Uh, it's due an aging has postedsome, some helpfully on our web
page.
I had mentioned those scanflashcards earlier.
There are a number of radioshows I've done that are about
their posts.
(53:16):
Um, I've written some articles,a lot of inner paywalls because
they're in journals.
Um, but I'm, um, to be aresource for your subscribers so
they can contact me throughemail or phone, um, especially
on the legislative stuff.
Cause I that's my passion.
So, um, people want to contactme about that.
Um, they can definitely feelfree.
(53:37):
Um, but other than that, I'd saythe resources on the Institute
on aging website are quite good.
Um, if you're interested moregenerally in elder abuse, the
national center on elder abusehas really great links about
like studies and researchinitiatives.
And I mentioned consumer reportsbefore because they've done such
strong ECC work with therobocalls, but consumer reports
(53:57):
has like really great, uh,references and things in general
on, on elder abuse as well.
Um, and I would say the, the FTCwebsite is quite good,
especially on things likeidentity theft.
Um, elders are getting theirsocial security, Medicare number
stolen all the time.
And the FTC has really goodstep-by-step tools on their
(54:20):
website for how to, how torecover after that.
Um, and then the last place Iwould recommend because they
have really good fact sheets ona number of, um, of issues
affecting seniors is theconsumer financial protection
Bureau, um, older adult section.
And they're putting out new factsheets, I would say like every
other week.
So,
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Oh, that's great.
Those are all some greatrecommendations now be sure to
list those.
Um, well just the, you know,that, that reminds me of, uh,
one final question along thatsame note is, uh, do you have a
blog or are you posting onLinkedIn?
Is there somewhere people canfollow?
Speaker 3 (54:58):
I do.
I don't post on it, but thereare the links to my articles.
Um, well, things that have beenquoted in some articles on the
LinkedIn.
So yeah, you're welcome to go tothat.
Um, blogging.
I've not done in a long time.
Um, I would love to do thatagain though.
(55:23):
I've written, they're floatingout there in the ether.
Like I did it like top fiveunder the radar scans.
Um, that's still out theresomewhere and sadly it still
applies even though it's like 10years old, they're still pretty
under the radar.
Um, but yeah, like nothing likecurrent that I've done blogging
wise.
Um, I've been on the donatingblog a couple of times in the
last few months, but, butnothing that's like, um, like a
(55:45):
regular blog for me.
Um, but yeah, there's, there'sstuff out there and again,
here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
Well, and I'll be sure to repost anything that I
see from you so that myfollowers CA uh, can also keep
up with what you're doing outthere and hopefully you'll come
on again and, uh, we cancontinue the conversation since
there's so many areas we didn'tget to today.
Um, so Shauna, thank you so muchfor joining me on the get ready
with Tony Stewart podcasts.
(56:16):
It's been a pleasure to have you
Speaker 3 (56:18):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, let's make a,
Speaker 4 (56:25):
That sounds great.
Yeah.
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Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.