How To Read

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Reading isn't dead - our attention spans have just been hijacked by phones and social media. Inspired by an essay Fresta wrote on how to read last year, we discuss practical strategies to reclaim your reading habit and rediscover the joy of getting lost in a good book.

Check out Fresta's essay on Rare Candy's substack with more detailed reading tips and strategies: https://rarecandy.substack.com/p/how-to-read-books

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
You know, he's really , he's shameless.
An intellectual argument, he'sabsolutely without character, a
moral foundation or evenintellectual substance Thank you

(00:49):
, welcome back to getting litpodcast.
Last episode we talked about uhjdo's book god's fair, no
better.
And this episode we're notreally talking about a book, but
we're getting meta and we'retalking about how to read.

(01:09):
Uh and I, I wanted to do thisbecause fresta has written a
wonderful piece about this on,uh, rare candies sub stack.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
It was a couple of years ago now, or last year,
yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and Iguess he were you asked to do
that or did you just submit itto them, or yeah, no, I just was
like thinking about it one dayand like this is how I always
write, it's like an idea I'lljust get in my head and then I'm
like I'll quickly just jot itdown on my phone and then I like

(01:39):
wrote it, and then I was likemessage glenn.
I was like, oh hey, I just wrotethis thing, would you run it?
And he's like, yeah, I'll takea look, wrote it.
And then I was like messageGlenn.
I was like, oh hey, I justwrote this thing, would you run
it?
And he's like, yeah, I'll takea look at it.
And then I just like didn'thear anything from him for a
while.
So I was like, ah, I guess hedidn't like it.
And then he's like all right,I'm putting it up tomorrow I was
like oh, really You're runningit?

Speaker 1 (02:01):
I, yeah.
So I just wanted to talk aboutthis because I've actually had a
few people reach out to mebecause they know I host a books
podcast.
I might have mentioned this ona previous episode, but I've
been asking like, oh, where do Iget started?
And I've been getting lots ofquestions about like I used to

(02:28):
read a lot and I just can't getmy attention back.
Like it's really hard to likefocus and read books now and
blah, blah, blah blah and likeusually asking me for tips and
things like this um and I'vemostly been pointing them to
your article it's like just goread this um, but if you can't
even like sit down, it's stilllong enough to read this, which
is like what?
A thousand words maybe, maybenot even that I'm not good at
the word count thing.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
I always hear authors talking about like in terms of
word counts and I just have likeno concept for what.
So I was gonna say a hundredwords a hundred words.
It's like a paragraph yeah, somaybe it's a thousand, I don't
know.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, five hundred to a thousand so, yeah, um, I do
point people towards this um,and I think there's a lot of
wisdom in it, but also I thinkthere's a lot of uh.
One of the things that you kindof get at in this uh little
essay that you've done, which Ithink is very true, is this idea

(03:20):
that, um, you have to startwith like a high modernist or
like really, really difficultclassics or things like that.
And I don't think you do.
I think, like, if you want toget back into reading, I would
go with like the trashiest thingyou're interested in, like if
you're, if you're a, if you're aguy into like airport novels or

(03:42):
whatever, just get on that.
Get on that Crichton tip Um,lots of resources on rare candy
for that, um, but or, you knowwhat's that other guy's name,
james Patterson.
Yeah, there's a guy, yeah,stephen King, anything like that
Blocky stuff that you kind ofknow you'll be interested in, um

(04:02):
and so kind of know you'll beinterested in, and so, like we
read obviously we read heaps ofbooks for the podcast, so we've
got experience with this.
But I will admit even myselfthat, like it, the phone is the
problem, right, so thatsometimes you get distracted,
you get a notification or youget like that I hate this like

(04:26):
coiling need you have within youto check your phone sometimes,
even if you don't have anotification, and that can creep
up on you when you're readingsometimes and that just disturbs
the flow of things.
And so I think that we're doingthis episode as a sort of like
public service to get people tothink about how to, if they have

(04:50):
trouble sticking to likereading and books and things
like that.
We're going to kind of gothrough some of our hints and
tips for doing this.
This sounds very remedial forlike people who are, you know,
listening to a book's podcast.
But I'm saying to you that, like, even I have this I'm guessing
you have this as well that, like, sometimes you can be just

(05:12):
distracted by phones, life, youknow, all this other stuff, and
it's not necessarily aboutignoring all of that because you
know you don't want to get soengrossed in a book that you're
going to abandon your partnerwho's just fallen off the
balcony or something.
But, like you, you need to um,you need to lock in, basically,

(05:34):
and yeah, there's variousstrategies that we've got, um,
but yeah, why, why did you, uh,write this?
It just came to you.
Or like, did you have a similarthing with people asking you
like, how do you read so much?

Speaker 2 (05:47):
or whatever, like, what's the no, it was more just
like for myself, like, um,noticing yeah, like these things
that were like slowing me downor things, and I sort of had
just I guess I just started likecompiling a mental list of like
tips that I was helping, and soI'd have to, like, you know,
like if I was finding myselflike grabbing at my phone or

(06:07):
just like reading the sameparagraph over a million times,
I would sometimes have to likego back to my own checklist and
think like what have I done inthe past to like get past this?
And so I think I was justsitting in the bath like trying
to read something and I keptlike zoning out, and then I like
that's right.
Like you know, sometimes I do,um, yeah, like well, to back it

(06:30):
up a little bit, I'd say likethe best, the ultimate advice is
given by jack mason, which isjust just scan your eyes across
the page exactly and read thestory.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
That's literally it but yeah and he says as well
that I agree with, even if youmiss things, like don't worry,
just keep going, like yeah,because you can always, like you
know, go back if you want,really want to know this detail
that's not filled in later on,or whatever, like so I don't, I
don't think missing things isnecessarily, um, a bad thing,

(07:02):
because a lot stuff, a lot oftexture and things that fill in
the world or the characters orwhatever, often isn't like
crucial for you understandingwhat's going on later in the
book.
And if it is just flip back,you know and yeah, like you
really do, sometimes I readsomething and like my eyes will

(07:23):
glaze over and I'm kind of notreally reading it, but I am.
Have you ever had thatexperience where you, like
you're sort of like goingthrough the sentences and you
are reading it, but you're notlike taking it in?
Like sometimes that happens too, which?
is very weird, weird feeling.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, and then you'll reread it.
And then once you've like yeah,then you'll reread it.
And then once you've like, yeah, like you're, like you're
saying you don't have to go back, like I just started, like the
gene wolf um, the first book ofthe book of the long sun, it's
called nightside the long sun.
I was calling it nightside ofthe long sun and then I showed a
cover to joseph.
She goes nightside the long sun.
I go it's not of the long sun,you idiot.
And then she's like I look atit and I'm like, oh, she's

(08:03):
actually correct.
I just put the of in therebecause that's and I don't know
if that's why he did that tofuck with the reader or whatever
, probably.
But anyway, like the first fewpages, I've like no context for
what's going on and it's sort ofmeant to be.
And they introduce a bunch oflike character names and stuff
and I just did exactly that.
I'm like whatever, I'm justgonna keep reading through.
And then a few pages later, allthat shit started making sense.

(08:25):
Like your mind, it is in yourmind somewhere.
If you read it, like, even ifyou didn't consciously read it,
you still did absorb it in somedegree.
So if you just keep reading afew pages, few through, you'll
eventually get enough contextthat you're like, oh, I can
actually see the story in myhead now, and then you can like
either go back or just rememberthose earlier passages.

(08:47):
So yeah, because I do that allthe time, like I'll just read
the same.
There's just certain types ofparagraphs where, like, no
matter how many times I read it,my brain will just not latch
onto it.
And same with the audio booksor whatever so, and like I used
to always just keep reading it,reading it, and then you're like
putting yourself to sleepbecause you're so bored and like
not interested, you just yeah,it's just much better to move on
, push through, yeah.

(09:08):
And if you just keep doing that,if you're doing that for like
25 pages and you're just justliterally abandon the book, like
you can come back to it later.
Just that's the other thingpeople always do is they they
start a book and they're like,well, I heard about this other
book I to read, but I'm stilllike only 25 pages into fucking
like whatever.
And it's usually some likethick, like nonfiction thing or

(09:31):
something.
They're like oh, I have to readthis whole Deleuze book or
something before I can start.
It's like no, you actuallydon't need to finish that, just
start the book you want to read.
Like you've got to ride yourenthusiasm a bit.
So if you're keen for somethinglike you've heard about a book
and it sounds awesome, butyou're already in the middle of
another book but you're notenjoying that other book or
you're having trouble gettingthrough it, just start a new

(09:53):
book and see how you go.
Maybe you won't like it as muchas you thought, but if you get
into it and because it's allabout just getting in the zone,
because I think that's whatpeople want when they say they
want to read, it's not just theydon't know how to read.
They want to become immersed ina book where it's not effort
it's not a lot of effort forthem to read it.
They want to just actually sitdown and have a good time
reading, and that's what I think.
What they're asking for is howdo you do that?

Speaker 1 (10:16):
yeah, and I think that's, um, you know, just
relating it tangentially toother media as well.
I think one of the reasons whypeople are very dissatisfied
with like movies and TV now isthat even those which are a bit
easier, those forms are a biteasier to get into Cause, like

(10:36):
it's a little bit more I don'twant to say passive, but it's a
little bit more like you're notwhen you're reading something,
you're co-creating it in a way.
Right, like when you read it,but like when you're watching
something you it's all given toyou.
But I think a lot of thecomplaints about, you know, the
Netflix-ization of like mediaand stuff like that comes from,

(11:00):
um, you know, films and TV thatare made not for you to lock in,
that are made not notnecessarily to immerse you,
because but they're madebasically for people who are on
their phones and like, yeah, youknow, random loud stuff will
happen, grab people's attention,they'll work out what's
happening and then kind of goback to their phone, sort of

(11:20):
thing.
Like you can really see this inmost tv shows on streaming and
stuff like that, and movies too,that they're really designed
this way.
So like this, this concept ofimmersion only really, um, only,
I think it only really exists,uh, in terms of media forms, in
books and, to a kind ofdifferent extent, um, video

(11:45):
games, like that's the wholepoint of both of those forms,
whereas the other ones have sortof.
I mean, there are films thatwill immerse you, but they are
very slow and kind of, they'relike the tarkovsky thing, like
we talked about a few episodesago.
You know, um, but even that youhave to get into that state
where you are receptive toimmersion, you know.

(12:06):
So yeah, like that's aninteresting kind of point that I
thought was worth remarking on,that like you do need to be in
a state where you are ready forthat kind of immersion, right?

Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, are ready for that kind of immersion, right,
yeah, and like part of it too islike, if you're like, okay, I
want to have seen this movie andit goes for two and a half
hours, and then you're thinkingabout what you're going to do
afterwards and you're justtrying to get through it, you're
constantly gonna be checkinglike how long to go, yeah, and
that's all the kind of stuff.
The same with a book, like withyou know, another bit of advice
I give is just get a kindlelike um, everyone go, oh, but I

(12:46):
like the feeling of a real book.
It's like shut up, like justget the kindle.
Like you can still read realbooks like.
But the kindle is great becausea you can like literally like
tap on the corner and get rid ofthe page number and how long
left, like you can check thatfrom time to time, how long left
in the chapter, but I thinkit's best to just turn that off
so you can't see that at all.

(13:06):
And then always you can justlike make the font size huge so
you get this feeling of likepunching through pages like, so
you can be like it's like,whatever they make it up, you
know I make it usually prettylarge font um, and so it's like
you just like read 25 words nextpage you know, you get this
flow on, whereas if you know,when you're like got a big tome
of a book and it's like biblesize font, and then you open

(13:28):
like a two-page spread and youcan see there's no chapter break
for like 30 pages, that canlike, unless the story's really
like got you in, and in whichcase this advice is not
necessarily relevant for youanyway.
But, like you know, that makesyou just like constantly, like,
all right, like, and you're justthinking of the labor of
getting to that, like the bottomof the next page, and then you

(13:49):
flip it, like uh, and still nochapter break.
You know, yeah, yeah.
So also, yeah, pick books thatnot don't read gravity's rainbow
if you have trouble, pick abook that, like every four pages
there's a new chapter orsomething yeah, yeah, like a
pulpy or like airport type kindof novel.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
If that's what you're into, like, yeah, you just
really need to follow your kindof interest.
And I also think that, from alike going back, like, you need
to restructure your idea of likewhat reading a book is.
Like you're, you're doing thisfor pleasure.
You're not doing this foreducation, um, unless you are,

(14:31):
in which case it's a differentthing we're talking about like,
um, if you're reading a textbook, fine, right, like um, you know
, uh, but yeah, people have thisidea that, um, reading is an

(14:55):
educational practice because ofthe way that we are taught
reading in school when they gointo reading.
Is that I need to get, likecertain, I need to get points
out of this or something, somekind of like measurable benefit
in terms of like, did I learnsomething, or whatever.

(15:18):
Like it's just like.
I remember seeing like a tweetabout this that I quote tweeted
where I think it was some idiotlike um right-wing influencer or
whatever.
Who was like was it?
I think it was.
It was like you know, um, uh,they were talking about fiction

(15:40):
and they were saying, um, whyread novels or fiction or
whatever.
Any of those ideas that youwould learn from.
You'll get a better version ofthat in like philosophy and
theory and I'm like, oh my God.
First of all, they use some termlike informationally, dense or

(16:00):
something like that yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah and so, um, the
, the point being that, like, ifthat's the, if that's the
reason you're reading, like justthat's the wrong reason to read
a novel, if that's why you'rereading philosophy and theory,
or whatever, fine, you can dothat.
Um, although there's anargument you could make that

(16:23):
certain philosophy is a literarykind of like.
Nietzsche is sort of a littlebit more literary.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, and certain like fiction is philosophical,
yeah, and like to that person'spoint, like, oh yeah, it's like
you know less words to conveythe same idea is like, yeah, but
if those words are boring andit takes you like six months to
get through a 300 page book,whereas you could just burn
through like a thousand pagebook, like the fountainhead or
something, it's gonna like youknow, but you're gonna have a

(16:52):
good time and you're gonnaabsorb those ideas.
Like then like yeah, stupidanyway.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
Like the point.
The point is, the point I'mmaking basically is the good
time is the thing you know like,yeah, it's good, it's good to
get you know these.
You know it's good to getsomething like um, if you want
edifying out of a book orwhatever.
Whatever it is um.
But also I think it's it's theprimary, the primary thing that

(17:19):
you want out of a fiction novel.
A fiction um book is, uh, thatpleasure.
You want to have a good timerather than I'm doing this to
learn something and it's justlike.
Well, I think the learningsomething is is normally in
fiction anyway, it's not thepoint.
But it can be like a kind of umepiphenomenon or whatever.

(17:42):
That I don't know if that's theright word, but you're like a
kind of um epiphenomenon orwhatever.
That I don't know if that's theright word.
But you're like a, like a kindof um byproduct of having a good
time, um, while you're doingthat um.
But I don't think people shouldgo into it like and this is a
problem that even I think, likepeople who are paid to be
literary critics and stuff likethat, have where they look at it

(18:03):
from this point of view of like, what am I getting out of it,
like educationally, and I'm likewhat?
Like you know, this taught me,this taught me, teaches us this,
or whatever.
Like it doesn't need to teachyou anything.
Like it's, it's not.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
It's a work of art, it's not a work of like, uh,
agitprop or propaganda, althoughyou know some of it is like, is
like yeah, and that's a realproblem, obviously with a lot of
literature these days yeah, andit's like if you say you really
insist that you have to read,like whatever, some french
theory or something like that,like, and I've had, I've had

(18:41):
good times reading philosophy,like, like, generally I find
these books are like youprobably could have summed that
idea up in one chapter but youhad to stretch it out to a
300-page book so it was worthbuying.
But like, say you really justlike, for whatever reason, want
to be someone who's readNietzsche or something like that
, just get two books, get thewhatever the boring book and get

(19:02):
, get like something fun theisland of dr moreau or something
and just be like 10 pages, justgo 10 for 10, be like.
Or chapter for chapter, be like.
All right, like, once I finish10 pages of the boring book,
then I can treat myself to 10pages of the like fun book.
You know, if you're the kind ofperson who can be disciplined
that way, like the other, theonly pitfall with that is, like,

(19:23):
if you're like, just toochaotic to follow the rules or
you just turn it into this, likeyou're getting away from
reading again by getting allobsessed with the system of the
rules, like, like, there's someadvice.
I guess that's what I was sayingwhen I was like had more about
that article.
I want to say is it's like,don't get fixated on all the
little things I've just tried togive hints to like things I do,

(19:44):
but like you got to make yourown system that works for you,
like, if you like because I said, like you know, listen to
certain, you can, if you you canlike put music on, like to like
block out the sounds of yourlike co-workers and stuff like
that.
But if you get too fixated onlike picking the right music and
stuff like that and like thatcan be a distraction too.
So you sort of got to like seewhat works for you and just try

(20:08):
to remain like actually reading.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
And if you're too spurgy about if you're going to
do that, because sometimes Ifind it easy to like block out
you know my partner clangingaround the house or whatever
while I'm reading but like ifyou can't, if you're, if that's
a problem for you and and, likeyou said, put on music or
something you can even get.

(20:33):
Things like that are justsounds like ambient sounds Like
there's like 10 hour videos onYouTube of like rain hitting a
tin roof.
You could do something likethat, you know, just to block
that out, like it's just a sortof like a white noise.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, you don't want it to be distracting, like if
it's an artist you like too much, like, yeah, like, even if it's
just instrumental music orsomething like you know but if
you want to find that, yeahyou're going to find that more
interesting than the book likeyeah, yeah, you don't want to
listen to anything with vocals,or at least the vocals can't be
in english or a language you canunderstand.
You know, like I listen to theband dark throne, like black
metal band, because it's alljust like like I can't and it's

(21:08):
just like textured guitars andstuff and like, or I'll put like
sun ra on because it's jazz,but then something there's a lot
of sun ra songs where there'slike chanting in english and
lyrics and stuff, and alwayshave to like skip those songs
because like my mind will justlatch on to that.
I am getting better at liketuning out, like some like was.
I was listening to like kanyethe other day and reading and I

(21:29):
was just like actually able tolike not pay too much attention
to the lyrics or whatever.
Um, but you know that's likethat takes a while to develop
that skill and if someone's gotlike the news on or something, I
just can't like fucking detachoh, yeah, yeah, well, you go to
a cafe and there's just likesome fucking idiots set up at
the table near you and they juststart talking about the boring

(21:51):
as shit.
Or it might work.
People just like will sit downand just start watching the news
or something on their phonewithout headphones.
Next you'll be reading andthey'll just sit down next to
you, start watching, or they'lljust talk about work with
everyone else.
It's like we're at work.
Why you want to fucking talkabout work on your break?
So that's when it's good tohave just headphones in your bag
or whatever to just put in.

(22:11):
Yeah, put ambient sounds,binaural beats, just white noise
, something like that.
That's going to just like notbe too distracting but like you
can at least block out thosenoises and sometimes, if you get
the soundtrack right, it canenhance the reading process.
Just don't get too fixated onthat.
Don't be like is this the rightsoundtrack?
Is this is?
Is this like?

(22:31):
That's just like a thingthat'll just happen by chance
once in a while and you just gotto appreciate it when it does
happen.
But don't be like like I wastrying to do that reading
neuromancer.
I was trying to find the rightlike cyberpunk kind of like
soundtrack and I was like, yeah,even listening to the
soundtrack from the video gameand but I just was like not
finding it to work exactly how Iwanted to and at some point I
was just like you know, I'm justgonna put sunra on.

(22:53):
That works better, it's justsunra for everything.
I read a lot to sunra yeah, itworks for a lot, although some
of this stuff is like irritating, so like like because he's just
got so many albums and thenI'll just like I forget what
this one sounds like.
It's like one of the reallylike experimentally weird ones
and I was like I'll just go backto one of the classics, kind of

(23:15):
thing.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
So I should have asked you this up front though
Like what's your kind of historywith this?
Like reading, like did you reada lot as a kid and then, kind
of you know, drifted away fromit and is the?
You wrote this because you'rekind of, you know, showing
people how you got back into it,or like, what's the?
What was the deal with with,with your own reading practice.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
so um, as a kid I got at certain age, like got into
the goosebumps books.
Oh yeah, like probably justabout every kid in the 90s did,
and that was mostly all I read,although there were some other
things I remember reading.
There was a sort of knockoffgoosebumps branch.
I cannot remember what it wascalled, but they like remember
some story about giant ants.

(23:58):
Um, like, I just rememberedlike you'd see them in like news
agencies where they wouldn'tsell goosebumps and if I didn't
have a like a current goosebumpsbook or whatever.
So I remember reading likeevery single of the like normal
goosebumps.
I hated the give yourselfgoosebumps ones.
Like the choose your ownadventure ones.
I was like this sucks.
Like now you're giving me like13 stories that are like all mid

(24:19):
.
I want the author to justfascistically to decide what the
best pathway through this storyis.
Um, I remember the first time Igot a goose to give you
self-goosebumps book I read likeread it within like three sort
of changes.
I like the character just diedor something and I was like well
, I guess I finished the book.
And then someone's like no, yougo back and you choose the
different options and I was likeI don't like this.

(24:40):
This sucks, but yeah, so I readall those.
And then you some other booksand shit.
You remember those likescholastic magazines or whatever
, like you'd order books throughschool.
I remember whatever some thingslike that.
I read a lot in primary school,then in high school pretty much
read nothing except for TonyHawk's autobiography like three
times, and then in late highschool.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
And then you got into weird.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yeah Well, and then like late high school, some
stoner friends were like intothe Belgaria, the David Eddings
books, which I know you've readas well, and so they're like I
remember getting really intothose and then sort of reading
Lord of the Rings and then beinglike, yeah, all right, I love
fantasy, but then just likenever found another fantasy

(25:23):
series I really like got intoand then I sort of stopped
reading.
You know, like late high schoolyou're just partying and
whatever, skateboarding a lot,so I wasn't really reading
anything.
Maybe a couple of things.
Through my twenties I think Iread Didi Ramon's autobiography,
peter parrot biography andanimal farm and started a bunch

(25:48):
of books but never finished themstarted like an evil and war
book.
At some point I was like thissucks, um, and maybe it is good.
I just at the time was like Idon't understand what's even
happening in this book, uh, andthen you had basically read
nothing through my 20s and then,about like the age 30 I think,
listening to a lot of podcasts,I felt like that kind of ambient

(26:09):
pressure to be like literaryand like read and so I started
reading, like you know,philosophy sort of stuff, and
you know, maybe I listened tolike the audio book of Crime and
Punishment and slowly juststarted getting in.
Oh yeah, that was probably likeaudible, like, definitely like,
but like a lot of those sort oftrashy like.

(26:29):
I think it was like would belike christopher hitchens and
richard dawkins books on, likeaudible, and then eventually
like, yeah, sort of getting moreliterary, and then at some
point started reading likelibertarian books which are
dreadfully boring.
Um, I didn't mind.
Hans herman hopper.
His book democracy the god thatfailed, was pretty good,

(26:52):
although it was probably boringin some ways too.
Like it's 400, some pages andit's kind of like you get the
point pretty quickly.
And then, yeah, at some point Ijust realized like I'm just
gonna start reading fiction anduh, and then, yeah, got a lot
better from there once I startedlike just actually, yeah,
because I had that thing.
Like, oh, you know you, I shouldbe reading these like

(27:12):
philosophy books to becomeintelligent and understand like
the world.
And then you have this delusionthat like, oh, if I read enough
of it, I'll have all theproblems of the world figured
out.
And then after a while yourealize like oh, I just made it
all way more complicated.
Like now I realize like shit,like there's no solving any of
this shit, like at least I'm not.
So yeah, basically that, whatabout you?

(27:32):
Have you just kind of alwaysread since a kid?
Yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
and then obviously I did a um literature degree.
Uh, well, I started doing aneducation degree because I was
going to be a teacher, but thenI got really annoyed with that
because it was just so muchbullshit like educational theory
and I was like, eh, I'm justgoing to do literature.
And so I just sort of did that.

(27:57):
And that was when, doing aliterature degree, you actually
had to read a fuckload of books.
Like you literally had to readlike a uh, a Dickens book in a
weekload of books.
Like you literally had to readlike a uh, a dickens book in a
week, sort of thing.
You know, like, so we, itusually wasn't a full 13 weeks
of of a book each week, butusually it was like at least

(28:17):
eight you would have to readover a semester.
And big books too, like youhave to go from like dickens to
george elliott middle march.
You'd have to to like reallybig kind of not modern books, um
, until you get we did the um,the post-modern fiction kind of
book, and but even then theywere modern books but they're

(28:39):
fucking huge, like you know.
Like um, yeah, like you said,gravity's Rainbow I don't think
we did Gravity's Rainbowactually, but that sort of thing
.
So, yeah, I was always intoreading when I was a kid and a
teenager and at the same timethat I was sort of reading all
of these big 19th century booksin college, I was reading, like,

(29:03):
like, all the fun stuff as well, and that actually was, like
you saying, I was kind of doingwhat you advise in a weird way,
because I would be like Iremembered that back at uni when
I first started university.
That was when, you know, I, youknow I was a trailblazer,
because that was when I wasreading the Game of Thrones
books, long before the TVadaptation, and I got really

(29:26):
into those because those first,um, those first three books are
like so good, they are just sogripping and like and you just
want to keep going, um, very,very compelling and kind of
addictive reading.
And, yeah, weirdly, that helpedread the more kind of, because
it is pretty Martin's, prettyeasy to read, but it helps with

(29:52):
the more difficult stuff, theold-timey stuff, you know, yeah.
So so, yeah, and obviously, but, like I said at the top, like
you know, the advent ofsmartphones and things like that
, it has taken a toll on myability to read as well.
So I have to.

(30:12):
It's this weird thing where Ididn't think about it before
when I was a kid or like younger, but now I do have to be, just
be a little bit more likemindful when, when I'm I'm
sitting down to read sort ofthing, like then that means
phone away, um, you know, justsort of and it's not just the
phone, it's like this um, you,you're, you've got to kind of

(30:37):
make yourself an island.
You know your bed is an islandand you're not gonna go and do
the dishes or do little choresunless you're like listening to
a audio yeah, something likethat.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Then you need to do chores.
I can't just sit there and donothing.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, me too and that is good.
That's a good like productivitything for me.
Like, I will listen to a lot ofaudio books, mostly because of
the podcast, because I have somany books to read and then I go
on other podcasts and stufflike that, and so I'll usually
have one book that I'm likereading on my kindle or a
physical book, and then I'll belistening to a book as well for

(31:14):
the show.
But I don't know if I didn'thave a books podcast that I know
whether I would even be onaudible.
To be quite honest, because itis a different there's there's a
slightly different vibe toaudiobook versus reading it.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Some books work better as audiobooks.
I find trashy.
Like fantasy stuff is great forlike fiction and then sort of
like zippy nonfiction stuff,like autobiographies or like a
fucking Ann coulter book orsomething like works good as
audiobook.
But some things like if you tryto listen to like I remember
when I was getting really intolike julius avola and I was like

(31:51):
listening to his books onaudiobook, they're not good on
audiobook, I mean, like it's,you know this shit's hard to
read as it is.
But, um, yeah, I, I like if Iprobably wouldn't have audible
if I didn't have a driving job,because like that is, I
generally listen to audiobookswhen I'm driving around and
stuff like that at work.
Like if I get sort of sick ofpodcasts sometimes or if I have

(32:13):
to read a book, like you know,for the podcast or whatever.
Like yeah, the audible is greatfor that, but if I didn't have
that job I just probably wouldcancel my subscription, um for
sure that's what I gotta get.
I gotta get a driving job likeyeah, it's so good, um, just
that you don't have to think toomuch as well, exactly, yeah and

(32:34):
because I'm always like I keepmy kindle in my pocket, like the
new kindle is like smaller, soit's even lighter and fits in my
pocket really good.
Um like, oh, you want to hearan example of what a fucking
like lunatic I am.
Sometimes like um, when I waslike I'm gonna buy the new
kindle, and then I went to likejb hi-fi and I was looking
because it looks smaller and Iwas like wait, it's like smaller

(32:57):
.
Like it's like says it's a sixinch screen, but and I'm like
using my thumb to like measurethe diagonal I'm like that's not
six inches, so this is likesome bullshit.
And I'm like I don't want toget a smaller screen.
Like that'll make even harder.
You know you get a pdf and youtry to read on.
You can't resize the font thenand I'm like talking to the guy.
I'm like is this actually sixinches?
Is like says it's six inches?

(33:18):
I'm like, no, that's not sixinches, that that's not six
inches.
And then I was like standingthere, like looking at it, and
another guy comes up and I'mlike this isn't six inches and
Josie, my fiancee, is just likeso embarrassed for the way I'm
being.
And then he's like, oh, I cango get the ruler and bring it
out.
And then he does I'm like, yeah, yeah, do it.
And he actually brings theruler out and he measures it and

(33:38):
goes.
Josie goes, yeah, it's sixinches.
And I was like, oh okay, Iguess I stand corrected here.
And then I go home and I get myold Kindle out and I measure it
and I go, yeah, this is sixinches too.
I guess it's just the outercasing on the old one is bigger,
so it looks smaller and so Ijust go to a different.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
JB Hi-Fi and buy it Because you couldn't turn up at
the same time, yeah no.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
And Josie's like maybe I'm not sounding how much
of a psychopath I was probablycoming across, but Josie's, just
like you are a fucking lunatic.
I forget where I was going withthis story, exactly how I got
onto this no-transcript, so I'lljust keep the Kindle in my
pocket, yeah, and like becauseI'm always just have to wait for
people that aren't ready, orlike I've got to get in
elevators or wait.
You know it's alwaysconstruction going on in the
city in Brisbane so you're justlike it's always tradies just

(34:37):
clogging up the elevator forages.
So I'll just stand there andlike I know some people like
have jobs where they'reconstantly looking at a computer
screen and they just say likethey can't read too much because
they just sort of it remindsthem of work and they need to
like just watch TV to turn theirbrain off.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
But like yeah, well, in that example, I think that
probably physical books areprobably better than a Kindle
then, so they don't have to likea screen.
You know, yeah, um, because itis a different.
You know, they can get thattactile like element of it if
they want.
Um, yeah, one of the uh thingsI love that you put in this
essay, um, it's right at the topactually, when you're saying

(35:16):
and I say this to people all thetime that when people complain
that they can't read, I'm likeyou're scrolling on like social
media, you and you're, you're,it's literally true that they've
probably consumed about as manywords as a book like within
within the week.
You know, and it's just like,well, yeah, why don't you take
that?
You know clearly you can do it.

(35:38):
You know clearly by amount youcan read that amount of words.
So, like, just transfer that toa book and something that has
your interest, because I don'tthink you can go cold turkey
from scrolling the internet.
Some people can, but they'respergs basically Scrolling the
internet to Dostoyevsky orsomething like that.

(35:59):
Like you said, go to somethingthat you're interested in and
enthusiastic about, but, yeah,that that.
That is so true that, like,people consume so many words on
social media, whether it'stwitter, even instagram, which
is a visual platform, people arereading the captions and like
all of that, this sort of stuff.
It all adds up.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
It's not like you can't pass your eyes over words
and like comprehend what they'resaying, so just do that on a
page you know, yeah, or evenjust texting or group chats or
whatever you know, when you likethink, like I'll just scroll up
to find that message and you'relike that was ages ago.
Like, just like only a couple ofminutes, so it's like they can
read that much.
It's just when it's broken downinto these little bite-sized

(36:41):
bits like, you only have toconsume like a little bit at a
time.
You know, like, but sometimesyou just got trick your brain.
That's why, like the kindlelikes resizing the font to be
bigger so you don't feel likeyou're getting through quite as
much.
Like and you'll get like youwant to just get that flow on.
And yeah, like I alwayssometimes, yeah, if you're
looking at your phone,especially a lot, and then

(37:03):
you're going to go to reading,you're going to be kind of in
the phone zone in your brain abit.
You've got to kind of like dosomething to reset.
You go like, let go of it.
Like you, just like you knowyou don't have to be a great I'm
a terrible meditator, but like,just try to just like literally
have like a half a second whereyour brain didn't even think a
thought, like if you can just dothat.
Like you close your eyes andjust like focus on your

(37:24):
breathing and just sort of justclear it out for just like
literally half a second.
If you could do that, then itmakes it easier to get into the
story.
And then, like I said in thearticle too, like, yeah, what
you can do is then say you'rereading whatever like jurassic
park.
I think it's the example I usein the article.
Like you know, just imaginelike all right, I'm on the like
jurassic park.
I think it's the example I usein the article.
Like you know, just imagine,like all right, I'm on the like

(37:45):
jurassic park island, like startvisualizing the textures, like
the like the jungle anddinosaurs, and before you even
start reading, yeah, yeah,before you start reading.
And then, because you know, whenyou start reading a book, just
like you're like even if you'relike midway through it or
whatever and just pick up thepage and you're staring at it
and you're not like forming anyvisual images in your mind and
you're like reading the samepassage over and over again.

(38:05):
So, if you can like get thatimage already in your mind and
you know where you are, becauseas soon as you grasp onto, like
what's going on in the story andyou like have a kind of sense
of the narrative, like youimmediately go, oh shit, and
like you just start like flowingthrough it quicker.
There's.
It just always takes a bit,like if you to re-immerse
yourself, like especially if youmaybe you put the book down for

(38:25):
a week or so and you haven't,you know, you've sort of like
forgotten a bit what's going on.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Like yeah, read the previous page, like from your
last session, like reread itjust to get a book, because
it'll be easier to reread onceyou've read it once you know or
or don't like you, because so Ifind like if you come back to a
book and just like, just bore in, just go into it and you'll,
you'll pick up what like whereyou left off eventually, like I,

(38:52):
there's different ways of doingthat.
Definitely, um, well, I reallylike that idea of like.
I've never thought of that, ofthat, but um, maybe I kind of
automatically do that, I don'tknow, but like that is a really
good tip just to sort of, youknow, visualize um the world of
the book, I guess, even if it'slike a more um contemporary book

(39:13):
or whatever, like if you'rereading sally rooney, visualize
yourself in like dublin and youknow it being wet and cold and
you know, just like, go over thecharacters in your head quickly
, you know like just think likewhat?

Speaker 2 (39:25):
because you'll always have kind of a little mental
image of what you think thatcharacter might look like or
something.
And yeah, you just sort ofthink about that, just something
.
To just sort of stop thinkingabout like I've got to respond
to that guy, that fucking, youknow, call me whatever on
twitter.
Like don't get into twitterarguments because you'll just be
too, obsessed with that, likeyou know, and like, yeah, I have

(39:47):
these problems.
I'm like the least online guyprobably in the scene, just
about.
Like I still have a twitter andall that, but I like barely
ever post and I don't get caughtup and I I'm always like five
days behind on all the currentthings or whatever.
Um.
So, and even I have that whereI'll be reading, and then I just
like instinctually reach for myphone, like so keep it, whereas

(40:11):
you have to like get up andwalk a step to get to your phone
.
You don't have to have it in.
Like you can keep it on ifyou're waiting for a call or
something like that, but likejust just try to keep it.
So like you don't, you can likeabsentmindedly grab at it and
if you need to just get it outof your system quickly, like
just quickly check yournotifications or something, and
then try not to get like it'sdangerous because it's even I do

(40:34):
it.
Like I'll go to check my bankbalance and then I'm like
scrolling through Instagram,looking at skate videos and
stuff.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
And I'm like how the fuck did I end up here?
Just because I saw the littlebadge icon had a two on it or
something.
Yeah, putting that, like, likejack says putting it in the
other room is very necessary.
Um, the other thing with thatthat, um, that is a really good
tip for if you're finding ithard to get up in the morning as
well, like you set your alarmon your phone but you put the
phone in another room because itwakes you up and then you've
like you can't just hit snoozebecause it's on your bedside

(41:08):
table.
You've got to get up and like,and once you're up, you're up.
So like very rarely will youlike flop back into bed, like
because it's in.
It's like oh well, I'm up, Ibetter have a shower and get
ready, sort of thing.
So yeah, that's a good tip fornot necessarily reading, but
like getting your ass up in themorning.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
Isn't there like an app where, like the alarm will
make you like solve a puzzlebefore it'll like turn off oh?
really yeah, so I think it'slike to hack, but I think your
idea is simpler and you knowwhatever.
Because you, you know whatever?
Um, because you could get goodat the puzzles to the point
where you could just quicklysolve it and then like just
snooze, yeah, yeah, um.
So it sucks now because it'slike still dark at like five and

(41:50):
six in the morning, so like thealarm will go off and it's just
like, uh, I'm just gonna keepsnoozing until like the sun,
actually, because I'll keep mycurtains open so that the
sunlight will wake me up.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
But that's very soul, bra coded yeah, yeah, yeah, our
compatriot soul bra, yeah againI barely know who that is.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
I did.
I missed all the controversywith that guy just like all of a
sudden, everyone's like talkingabout this guy.
They hate who's.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah, I mean he's, he's.
He's really like you know aboutthe sun, natural sun.
He's one of those buttholesunners like he loves that shit,
or is it?
Is it the butthole or sunningyour balls?
I can't remember which one, itis probably both.
But yeah, um, and you know, Idon't doubt that that's a good,
that's a good thing for you todo, um, but he's also a raw meat

(42:34):
guy, which I'm less a fan of.
Um.
I do want to get his gym shorts, though, because they look
really good.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
So, um, are they like all natural fibers?
I think so.
Yeah, yeah, I've been doingthat updating my wardrobe to
like nothing polyester, like all, like cotton and linen and wool
, if I can.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, it's good linen is so annoying to deal with,
though, because it get creasesso easily, and, oh yeah, if
you're one of those fastidiouspeople that needs, like it all,
to be ironed like, it getscrinkled really fast I mainly go
cotton, to be honest, but likeyou know, the cotton linen blend
in like shorts or somethinglike that can be nice, so they
breathe a bit better yeah, um,and I'll just like even hunt op

(43:18):
shops and stuff like this jumperis like a rod and gun hoodie
all cotton, like it's hard tofind.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Like this gun hoodie all cotton.
Like it's hard to find.
Like this is where an off topicit was hard to find like
tracksuits and stuff that are100 cotton, like, yeah, found.
Like the as store has goodstuff and they always have sales
and then you know some you'llgo to like country road and
they'll have 120 pair oftracksuit pants but they will be
100 cotton.
But even like 100 pants, likewill be just like 95 polyester,

(43:45):
kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, I, I found, I found um that yeah, like you
said, rod and guns good for that, and so is academy brand, if
you've come across those.
They have a lot of good naturalblends.
They have synthetics as well,but a lot of um anyway.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Top another tip yeah for the listeners that's for
that op shop episode.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, yeah, well, oh well.
That's that can be a live one.
When next time?
Yeah, melbourne, becausethere's so many great um thrift
stores here.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
So well, yeah, I was thinking too if, when you're in
brisbane, we should go to thatmount cravat bookstore because,
like I always like have to justleave books like they had.
I spent a hundred dollars therein the last week and I still
like left like 12 michaelwalkoff books on the shelf, kind
of thing, amazing.
And then I like look at what Ibought and I realized like I had
I bought double ups.
Like I bought like um, somebook and it was already in like

(44:33):
the collection of the, like thatsteampunk one, and so I was
like a fucking idiot put thewrong ones, yeah, but I got.
I got all the gene wolf, uh,book of the long sun, now a book
of the new sun, I mean.
So, yeah, a couple others, butanyway, back to our actual topic
yeah, um so.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
So attention is a big thing, and you also talked
about choice, which we'vealready kind of covered a little
bit, but, um, yeah, I, I likethe idea of just choosing
something that interests you ifyou want to get back into
reading, just something that'sgoing to make you turn those
pages.
Basically is what you want tochoose.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Do you have any like suggestions of books?
You're if you were to just givesomeone like you don't know
anything about them.
Just here's like five booksthat would just be easy to read.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
Books to start with uh, books, um yeah, I'd probably
say it depends on the genreyou're into too.
So, um, I would probably sayfor, I don't know, for horror
stuff I would just say stephenking, um, stephen king's you

(45:43):
can't go wrong with if you'reyou're into that sort of stuff.
But for the fantasy genres,like the ones we've already
mentioned, like the belgaria,it's really easy to read um, so
trouble with that, as thoughthen you're committing to like
five books.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
That's true, that's the trouble it's.
But once you get into it, like,if you don't like the first
book, just do not watch thewhole series.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Exactly With science fiction.
I would probably stick with theclassics, because science
fiction these days like ispretty crap, like it's really
poorly written.
I would, yeah, go with theclassics, the new wave, like
people that we've covered onhere before.
Um, not necessarily I wouldn'tgo straight into philip k dick

(46:28):
because, um, it's a bitmetaphysical, it's a bit like I
would do, like someone likeheinlein or harlan ellison or
someone like that.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
um, and or if you really want to get really spurgy
, go with like asimov or somepeople like that some philip k
dicks, depending on the person,like I think they could do ubic
or the three stigmata definitelydon't go valis or the man in
the high castle, just because Ithink that one sucks.
But um, yeah, um, you know,depending on like what if you're

(47:02):
wanting to, because you know Ithink these people too like
they're like, yeah, I could justread some trash, but I actually
want to have read somethingthat's considered like good, you
know, um, so it's a bit yeahbut the front.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
The thing is that, like sometimes trash is good I
think, yeah the same, yeah likeum well, actually most times
trash is good, like all of thosepeople I've mentioned, like
step Stephen King is kind oftrash, but like he's still like
an amazing, amazing storyteller.
And yeah, and same with allthose other people that I've

(47:37):
mentioned, like kind ofphantasmagorical, interesting,
uh complex shit in a genre stuffthan you will in most, most
modern literary stuff.
Um, yeah, and I that's anotherthing that I wanted to talk
about too where you got theperson who's like, oh, I've got,
I feel like I need to bereading this, for, like, um,

(48:00):
it's a weird prestige statusthing and I'm like, rid yourself
of that as well.
Like just don't even, don'teven think about that.
Like why, like no one careswhat you're reading.
Like I mean, I do like,whenever I see someone reading a
book, I'm always likerubbernecking to see what it is.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
It's so hard, yeah, it's so hard, to actually see
what the cover is.
They're always like hiding italmost.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, yeah.
So but like generally, like noone's going to be like, say, if
you're reading Stephen Kingversus I don't know, thomas
Pynchon, like I'm going to saylike 60% of people probably
don't know like what those namesare, right, Maybe Stephen King

(48:50):
more than.
Thomas Pynchon, but even StephenKing, like they probably heard
the name but don't know whatthat actually signifies, what
kinds of stories that signifies.
And so then it's just like sothey're not going to judge you
based on what you're reading, soI just you just need to read
what you like, and that's that.
Like I'm not going full likepoptimism here, but like I'm

(49:12):
just saying that like there isvalue in reading itself and you
don't need to be like oh, I'veread this, I've read that.
That is like shit.
That annoys me so much onsocial media where people like
oh, I've read the latest.
It was like that fucking, um,that brodenism piece, like
whatever that russian guy's namewas, that he was talking about.

(49:34):
I'm like uh, this is like areally niche, uh kind of surreal
, like book in polishtranslation or whatever it is,
and I'm like imagine hearingyourself say that yeah, and what
are you reading?
oh well, actually it's thispolish thing, it's one but like
fine, if that's what you like,but also, who cares?

(49:54):
Like no one cares in terms ofprestige, like whether you're
reading that or clive barker,like to, it's not.
It's not a status signal.
So it's like you're justreading, which reading in itself
might be a status signal.
Like people might be like oh,this person has enough of an
attention span to read, so theyare like but I don't think it's

(50:17):
a status thing.
It's probably just like oh,they're a bit weird because they
can read.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
And it's just like, if you read enough, you'll get
to the point where, like, you'veread so much trash that you
kind of actually want to readDostoevsky or like the Polish
Brodnism thing, like, and youactually will enjoy it.
But if you just jump straightinto it, you're going to find it
a lot of work.
So, just yeah, rid yourself ofthis notion that you have to be

(50:46):
like, accept its work, it is,reading is work, it's boring, a
lot of the time, but it'srewarding.
And if you figure it out youyou're just gonna have to spend
a bit of time like um, you know,wading through the muck, but
hopefully our tips can help youlike get there a bit quicker.
Just yeah, a lot of everyonemakes the mistake of just going
straight to reading the like1200 page like dostoevsky book

(51:08):
or something and like, and thenthey do the thing where they
read two chapters and they putit down and then they don't
allow themselves to readanything else because they
haven't finished that book.
So just yeah, like I would say,like you know, if you want to
be all time lining about it andstuff, read Platform by Welbeck.
It's fun, it's easy to read andyou'll get to post it on
Instagram and be like look at me, I'm reading a cool book.

(51:31):
But yeah, read Conan theBarbarian.
They're fucking fun stories.
Again, it depends if you wantto actually say I finished a
whole book.
Conan's all broken down intolike 20 page stories and like
that can get a bit boringreading them.
I read one once in a while, butI don't really ever read two in
a row kind of thing.
You read like the elric booksby michael moorcock.

(51:53):
They're pretty zippy and easyto punch through.
Like they're only like 190pages or something like um what
else do I have written down here?
oh the yeah, the island of drmoreau.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
That's a banger, it's not that long, yeah it's so
good you'll.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
You'll think you know the story because there's
movies and simpsons episodesbased on.
You don't probably even knowthe real story and how good it
is.
Um fight club.
That's easy to read, likeyou've probably seen the movie
so you can like also just readit easier because you sort of
know what's going on.
Yeah, any Michael Crichton bookis probably going to be a good
choice and you notice yeah,sorry, keep going.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
No, no, no, I'm done you notice that all these
recommendations are books thatwould never be assigned in
school, and so this is the otherthing that you have to do, like
I was saying before, is thatyou have to reorient your
relationship to reading awayfrom school, because usually for
most people, people that's whenthey read like start reading

(52:50):
books right and they're assignedthese books like you might
there's a few bangers that youget in school like well, I did
anyway, like the outsiders.
The outsiders I got, uh, bravenew world in my later years,
which was like reallymind-blowing at the time.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
um, I got 1984 in high school and I thought it was
the boringest thing in thewhole world.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Yeah, and then I read it again in my like 30, when I
was 30 and I was like this bookrules, like yeah, but brave new
world, I think, is better,because I think it's like that's
the actual dystopia that thatwe live in, but but what's
closer to that anyway?
But so the so, but, other thanthat, you do get assigned things

(53:33):
that are not assigned becausethey're pleasurable to read.
They're assigned becausethey're quote unquote important.
There are things that you cankind of draw out of them for
criteria in school.
Like you know, 1984 is a goodexample Like, write an essay on

(53:54):
authoritarianism or whatever, orfree speech, or whereas um,
those books, uh are readily, uh,applicable to learning, whereas
these other books are moreapplicable to you having a good
time, and that's the.

(54:15):
That's the reorientation that Ikind of want people to
understand that like, it's notabout um, just stop thinking,
it's about learning, and thatyou're doing something to kind
of um, educate yourself.
You know, like, and I thinkthat's a.
That's something that a lot ofpeople who read like lean into
as well.

(54:35):
Like, if you're a kind of,they'd be like I'm very
sophisticated because I've readall these books.
It's like no, I want people tounderstand that, for the most
part, reading books is fun andlike it's a good time.
Like it's not about, like, yousignaling that you're this, um,
you know, intellectual orwhatever.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
I really, I really hate that attitude and if and if
reading books made you smart,like then all those fucking like
libtard journalists, people whoread like a hundred books
against trump every year, wouldbe geniuses yeah clearly like
they could just keep readingbooks over and over again.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
It doesn't move the needle to be fair, I don't think
they actually read that manybooks, but yeah, maybe not well,
they post the.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
I remember there was a bit like after trump was like
lost the second election orwhatever, and they're like all
right, I'm getting rid of allthe books I read over the last.
And then someone just had a pileof just like all of those like
why Trump's fascist, fascist andMary Trump's book and and I
remember seeing them all inthrift shops like I was nearly
tempted to start buying them upbut I was like what am I gonna

(55:36):
do with these?
I'm not fucking reading them,like, like I don't.
My missus will get mad that I'malready like wasting enough
space in the house with booksI'm not reading.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yeah, yeah, I can see some yeah, oh, no those are
dvds, dvds you're turning into ahoarder.
Um, yeah, the other one thatthat, um, I liked that you
talked about, was beingcomfortable when you, when
you're in your little readingnook.
Um, that's always important, Ithink.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
Um yeah, these are the devices he's wearing these
glasses.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
That, uh, what do they do?
They allow you to like leanback and read it, so I can see
you now, yeah, like.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
Yeah, they're like got little mirrors in them.
They're called lazy readers.
You can get them on like ebayor amazon or some shit, and so
because I was finding justgetting like a crooked neck,
like you do look insane when youwear that.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, of course.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Yeah, you look like a cyberpunk character yeah, you
look like you're in the like um,fucking, what's this?
What's the schwarzenegger moviebased on the philip k dick the
I can't believe a?

Speaker 1 (56:43):
total recall.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
You look like you're in like the totalall pod or
whatever.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
Minority Report pod.
Get your ass to Mars.
Get your ass to Mars.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
Like the lawnmower man or something.
But yeah, so they're just likeyou can lay, because, yeah, you
get a sore neck reading and themore your neck or back is
hurting, the more you're justgoing to think about that and
the more laborious readingbecomes.
Becomes so like, yeah, I, Idon't always use these, but like
, if I'm I'll just lay flat onmy bed.
I put the lazy readers on andthen I got this pillow pad here,

(57:13):
which they might have differentnames, but you can get them in
like post offices and onlinekmart.
Like they're just like atriangular prism foam thing and
they got like a little ledge,like that one's kind of shaped
like the neo-nazi sign, but um alittle bit um, um, but not
exactly you can probably get aswastika shaped one if you

(57:35):
really want to be esoteric aboutit.
Um uh.
But yeah, you're just readingmine conf, like yeah, don't read
that book as your first book tostart but I've never read it,
but it looks boring, um, butyeah, so it's just like a little
thing that you can like put thebook on like a little ledge,
and especially if you've got akindle, because then you can go
let go of it.
If you've got a book thatyou've got a hole open, you know

(57:57):
whatever, that just still makesit easier because it takes the
weight off you, off yourshoulders, and that.
But yeah, so I'll just lay on myback, I'll put the kindle, like
on that little pillow pad, andI'll just like sit back so I can
keep my neck straight and like,and then I'll read seven pages
and fall asleep.
Um, with the glasses yeah, nono, um, like yeah.

(58:19):
So I don't always do it because,like when I'm just too relaxed,
especially if it's like laterat night, I'll fall asleep, but
if it's in the middle of the dayor something, but whatever,
this might not work for you.
Don Don't be like all right, Ican't read, start the book until
I've got the pillow pad.
And lazy readers Like you justgot to, like you know, it might
be better just to sit at a tableand like sit in a chair and
then you put the book on thetable or, you know, prop it up

(58:42):
on some cushions.
Just get yourself comfortablein some way.
Get on a beanbag, like figureout what's gonna cause you the
least like discomfort.
And yeah, like I say, do some,just do some stretches, do like
just youtube, like basic 10minute yoga or something, just
to like sort of get rid of any.
You'll be any.
That was hard L, not hard R,yeah.
So just find some way thatyou're going to be like not too

(59:16):
uncomfortable and you know,every so often maybe just get up
, walk around, sort of stretchyour neck out a bit, do it, you
know, whatever, just yeah,because I think I feel like no
one ever talks about this.
But reading can becomephysically painful, like where I
don't know.
Do you get that much like theold man back and stuff?

Speaker 1 (59:36):
not really.
I'm pretty spry for my ageactually, but like, um, I don't
know why, maybe it's just goodgenetics or something, but like,
but usually I'm in bed and I'mlike propped up on a pillow when
I read, so or I'm in um on thecouch or something like that,
and usually I'll move around.

(59:56):
But, uh, you know if I need tochange positions, but I'm sure
it'll become a thing as I getolder, um, but yeah, so it is
important to be comfortable.
Uh, I like, um, I do like theidea of you know how people
sometimes who work at an officehave, like the standing desk,
the adjustable kind of thing.
I do like the idea of beingsomeone you know.

(01:00:18):
Well, I would love to have aroom that it's my library and
I'd love to have a lectern likethat you could just read it on,
um, so you could stand up andread.
That'd be fun.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Yeah, no, you're like cause.
That's the thing too.
Like cause I'm driving all day,so I'm sitting and I've got my
so that's kind of why, like, Igot to stretch so much.
It depends on what your job is.
If you're stretching yourmuscles out, working or
something, and then like to sitdown is kind of like relaxing.
So yeah, like you know, whenI'm at work I'll be in the van,

(01:00:51):
I'll take my lunch break and thekindle's great because I can
just sit it on the steeringwheel and then I can just eat my
sandwich or whatever and justsit there, um, and just you know
read and stuff.
But um, you know, just sittingfor long periods of time or
whatever, just so it's bad foryour muscles.
So you just got to get up andsort of.
But again the point is like,don't have to do what I'm doing
exactly or whatever, just soit's bad for your muscles.
So you just got to get up andsort of.
But again the point is likedon't have to do what I'm doing
exactly or whatever, just figureout what works.

(01:01:11):
And I guess that's the point Iwanted to elaborate on.
My article is like I was tryingto like demonstrate without
saying it explicitly, like justplay around until you find your
own system.
Just don't get too fixated onthe systematic thing of it, like
, yeah, it's, sometimes it's,except it's going to sometimes
kind of hurt your neck a littlebit.
Don't sit there and just like II still do this like my neck

(01:01:33):
will be hurting and I'll justI'll go to the end of the
chapter before I get up, andthen the chapter happens to be
65 pages long or something, andthen I'm like fully like kinked
in my neck and then by the endof it I'm not not absorbing the
story.
Just got to like, yeah, payattention to your body and
listen to the signals it'stelling you.
And you know, change thingsaround, move to the couch, move

(01:01:55):
to the bedroom, stand up, getthe lazy readers if you think
that'll help you out.
Just something you know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's something that, yeah,
make sure that you'recomfortable, because it is again
, it's a fun thing.
And that point that you raiseabout, like you know, don't try
to have everything aligned, Ihave to do this or that.
Like, do what works for you.
Like I feel like a lot of thisstuff where people are like I

(01:02:29):
need to do this, I need to dothat, before I can even start
reading, it's just like you'rejust looking for excuses not to
read Exactly.
Yeah, like, do you want to doit or do you not want to do it?
If you want to do it, do it.
You know it's that sort ofthing.
It's the same with the Jack'sthing about the transloom fees.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Yeah, yeah, same with the um, what the jack's thing
about the translumphe.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Yeah, yeah, wasn't that your coinage, actually, I
believe I coined it, yeah, butlike I was like derivative
coinage from his already yeahyeah yeah, the trans lumphe, the
person who, like, must have thecorrect translation of the
translated book before they caneven like, you know, um, even
even begin.
You know, it's just like.
No, just get the book and readit.

(01:03:09):
Yeah, um, the other thing that,the other point that um you
made, which I think this lastone was the point about time,
and like I really think youcould have been meaner in this
section because, like, peopleare so stupid about this where
they're like I don't have anytime to read and it's like
bullshit.
You just wasted your timelineyeah, you just wasted, yeah, a

(01:03:32):
hundred tweets per day.
I'm like, oh, I have no time toread.
You know?
Um, yeah, like you've been onsocial media for most of the day
, including your work day, andbut you don't have time to read.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
That is a crock of shit it's like when someone's
like you know, like they're likeI haven't seen you in a while,
like I've just been so busy,it's always bullshit.
It's just like I didn't want tohang out with you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
Yeah, I didn't I didn't um make the time to hang
out with you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
Definitely, yeah, yeah and yeah, if, like kelby
and dav, david can like havechildren, have a podcast, write
books, play video games.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
And have full-time jobs.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Have full-time jobs, shoot guns, whatever else is
they do, and still probably readmore books than I do.
Like anyone can make time, youknow.
Like it's just nonsense.
It's just you've got to likecarve out that space.
You yeah, you're not going tobe like able to like craft these
banger tweets and punch themout all the time, like you.

(01:04:34):
Just at some point, you justhave to make the decision like
what do I want to do more?
Do I want to read or do I wantto try to become like a
notorious twitter account?

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
yeah, exactly oh and speaking of twitter as well, I
remember there was a guy a fewmonths back I think it might
have been last year actually whowas like saying it was relating
it to like college and stuffthat you know it used to be that
we would expect students to beable to read 100 pages a day and
that was just normal, right,but now it's like expecting to

(01:05:08):
read 100 pages a semester islike too much.
You know, um, and all of thesepeople were like criticizing
this guy who, like I forget hisname, but he's a pretty like.
He works in a university, he'spretty, um, you know, he's
pretty kind of like, as youwould expect, professorial,
whatever.
So he wasn't necessarily doinga right wing kind of engagement

(01:05:33):
farm thing.
He was just stating a fact andhe was saying that, but then he
was getting quote, tweeted byall these people saying it was
ableist, yeah.
And it's the people saying like,oh, you know, I work, most
students work, have to work-timeor like part-time actually,
because they're students, um,and they've got other
commitments and blah, blah, blah, blah.

(01:05:54):
And it's just like, come on asif, as if those people with
their other commitments areconstantly online scrolling
tiktok, looking at twitter orinstagram or whatever the hell
they're doing.
Um, it's just such bullshit.
And then I got um, yeah, inresponse, I think I quote,
tweeted that as well.
And in response to that, Ithink um friend of the pod,

(01:06:15):
patrick um, who's a listener, uhreached out to me and said he
was like um, he works 50 hours aweek, he has toddlers and he
definitely reads over 100 pagesa day.
So, like, if people like thatcan do it, like you can do it
too with your um, you know umsingle life scrolling, doom

(01:06:38):
scrolling all day, sort of thing.
Like you can definitely findthe time and it is ableist to a
degree, but I'm like to that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
I just say like well, are you fucking retarded?
Like unless, unless you are,like, then what's so?
What?
Just do it.
Like you have the ability, likeyeah, every to do anything.
There's going to be an argumentthat is ableist because some
people aren't able to do it.
It's like, okay, we'll, we'llexcuse those guys, you know,

(01:07:05):
from the like expectation toread, you know, like not even
100 pages a day, like 10 pages aday or something like they can
be excused, but if you're notlike, then ah, yes, your excuse,
yes, fresca, but like theirexcuse now is that everyone has
adhd and therefore they aredisabled.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
Uh, so that's why that's, that's that's probably
what they're getting at.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
I have I when I was in school, the doctors tried, or
the teachers tried, to pressuremy parents to put me onto like
adhd medicine.
I fought through that shit.
Like I have trouble with thelike attention thing.
I'm trying to read and I talkto people all the time who just
like, use that as an excuse andand like and they're just like,
yeah, but I like I have adhd.
It's like I just one guy atwork always uses the term

(01:07:48):
neurodivergent and stuff likethat and but then they're,
they're on social media, likeabsorbing all the bullshit.
Like it's like you're justmaking you just I try I always
be blunt with them.
Like you're just throwing anexcuse in the way.
Like just, I'm just like I havethose issues where I have
trouble with the tension spanand stuff like that.
I just fought through it andeventually get to the other side
.
Stop putting the excuse in theway yeah and ADD is not real.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
So also there's that.
Yeah, yeah, cosign that.
Yeah, it's literally justphones.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Like.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
ADHD is literally just phones.
Stop saying you've got ADHD.
Stop saying stop fuckingshopping around for a diagnosis
so you can say that you'redisabled, pay a lot of money for
those diagnoses too and get onthe NDIS in fucking Australia,
which is like such a fraud,where people like take money
from the government and like paypeople to take them out

(01:08:38):
somewhere because they have ADHDand like quote unquote social
anxiety or whatever.
You don't have these things,you have phone.
That's what you have.
That is your affliction, whatwe've been saying.
If you want to get into readingand you're quote unquote adhd,
you need to deal with the phoneand you need to do the things
that we're talking about in thisepisode.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
You have phone, not adhd totally yeah, as people in
my work where they're like,they're like, take it seriously,
they'll be like 50 years oldand they're like.
You know, I always had troublewith this and then the doctor, I
got diagnosed with adhd andlike now, like you know, like I
take the speed tablets and Ilike, and I'm just like bro, you
just like taking speed likestop, stop acting like you're

(01:09:21):
like and it does make you moreefficient, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
Yeah, like it's really good.
I remember, um, when I was inthe US, because you know they
just hand Adderall out likecandy over there.
Like it's really amazingactually you know how hard it is
to get Like it's not hard, butit is you know You've got to pay
a lot here.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
You've just got to pay $1,000 to doctors and now a
friend of josie's like got paidpaid to get a diagnosis.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
She got diagnosed as like dyslexic at like 30
something.

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
It's like so what is it gonna even do?

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
didn't actually like yeah, clearly you survived,
clearly you've survived for thislong, like, why did you need?
And, yeah, when you've got likepeople in their 40s and 50s
saying, oh, I'm adhd, it's justlike.
No, those people are the mostaddled by their phones.
Like, have you ever seen like?
And people older too, like myparents, who were boomers
they're always on their phonesor on the internet or whatever,

(01:10:16):
getting addled by social mediaand like they're.
And then this but they don'thave at least they don't claim
to have adhd.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
You know, um, most boomers don't, I don't think,
but um, they remember whenboomers, when phones were kind
of new, and they're always likeyou're out to dinner somewhere
and you look at your phone like,get off your phone.
Oh, blah, blah, blah.
Oh, that waitress has tattoosthat sucks.
And then you're like, oh, comeon.
And now I'm like, no, you'reright, waitress has tattoos that
sucks, and get off your phone.
Stop fucking showing me howyour apple watch works.

(01:10:46):
I don't care, yeah and thenthey're like, yeah, my dad will
just be like mid-sentence, justlike, oh, the fucking thing, and
like getting like mad about it.
They're like there's so muchmore into the technology, like,
but they still will like, oh,you're young, you know how to
use this.
How do I set this up?
Like no, you, you use it morethan I do.
You should know by now.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
You made your bed.
Line it, line it, yeah.
So yeah, a lot of insights herefor people who want to read,
including people who think theyhave ADHD, but they don't.
No, did you have anything moreto add to this that you didn't
get?

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
into the original article.
Let me have a look at the notesI made.
I think we covered it allpretty much.
There's always more and morelittle kind of tips, but yeah, I
think the main points are likeyeah, your phone is going to be
a hindrance, pick somethingthat's going to be easy to read

(01:11:42):
and you will have a good time.
You know, get comfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
Get a Kindle, um, yeah, something like that.
Yeah, I agree.
And also, just don't don't viewit like you know you don't go
into movies or you don't go intolike, um, uh, go to watch a
football game or something likethat, with the idea that you're
going to learn something.
Right, you're going, you'regoing to have a good time,
you're going to be excited,you're going to be enthralled,
you're going to be compelledlike so it's like view the same

(01:12:21):
way you view those things, viewreading, because I think you've
been trained to view reading asthis like scholastic thing that
you have to do in school.
So you, we have to like breakthat, that, that um idea of
reading too.
Yeah, just have fun because itis fun yeah, it is fun.

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
It's boring sometimes , but like, push through that.
Like movies are boringsometimes, especially nowadays,
they all seem to be reallyfucking boring, um.
So, yeah, just accept you'regonna have some boredom, but
just keep going and you'll havea lot of fun.
And yeah, if you, if you makethe right pick with a book, it
will flow easily.
And yeah, definitely stopmaking excuses stop it?

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
yeah, uh, all right, I will.
I'll share this in the shownotes your articles so hopefully
you get a few more readersthere if you want to find out
more.
And yeah, we'll be back againsoon.
I'm not quite sure what thenext episode will be, but yeah,
thanks for joining us today.
I'll see you later.

(01:13:22):
No-transcript.