July 1, 2025 • 38 mins
Keep going, keep growing.
The WNBA announced their long-term expansion plans on Monday, revealing that the league is aiming to reach a whopping 18 teams in the next five years. Today’s episode of The GIST of It takes a closer look at why the WNBA chose Cleveland, Detroit, and Philadelphia as their newest markets, with co-hosts Ellen Hyslop and Steph Rotz breaking down the deets, including the record-setting expansion fee each squad will pay to join women’s basketball’s hottest club.
This episode was brought to you by Amazon Business, the ultimate partner for smart business buying. Amazon Business offers a one-stop shop for all of your business needs, helping companies of all shapes and sizes simplify their purchasing process. Learn more by checking out business.amazon.com today.
Show notes:
Episode #465: The French Open’s sexist scheduling
More on The GIST:
☎️ Leave us a voicemail! Call us at 1-437-564-5579 or hold down on this link
🎧 Subscribe: thegistsports.com/subscribepod
✉️ Email: pod@thegistsports.com
📷 Instagram: @thegistca @thegistusa
🐦 X: @thegistpod
The WNBA announced their long-term expansion plans on Monday, revealing that the league is aiming to reach a whopping 18 teams in the next five years. Today’s episode of The GIST of It takes a closer look at why the WNBA chose Cleveland, Detroit, and Philadelphia as their newest markets, with co-hosts Ellen Hyslop and Steph Rotz breaking down the deets, including the record-setting expansion fee each squad will pay to join women’s basketball’s hottest club.
This episode was brought to you by Amazon Business, the ultimate partner for smart business buying. Amazon Business offers a one-stop shop for all of your business needs, helping companies of all shapes and sizes simplify their purchasing process. Learn more by checking out business.amazon.com today.
Show notes:
Episode #465: The French Open’s sexist scheduling
More on The GIST:
☎️ Leave us a voicemail! Call us at 1-437-564-5579 or hold down on this link
🎧 Subscribe: thegistsports.com/subscribepod
✉️ Email: pod@thegistsports.com
📷 Instagram: @thegistca @thegistusa
🐦 X: @thegistpod
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, Hello, Hello jisters. Welcome or welcome back to another
episode of the Gist of It. Today is July first.
To all of our Canadians listening, hope you are enjoying
a day off. We know that July fourth is later
this week. We're your co hosts. I'm Ellen Hislop.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And I'm Steph Rotts, and none of those holidays fall
on podcast recordings, so we're here all week this weekend next.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Y'all are so lucky you're stuck with seven I weather
or not you like it. We have a lot to
get to today, a lot of it in women's basketball
and the WNBA in particular. First though, thank you so
much to everyone who listened to our podcast on Thursday
and purchased our She's Gay Marcus hats. We are basically
(00:51):
sold out again, which is really amazing. Yes, and Steph
is wearing that She's Gay Marcus hat right now. We
put We showed a little photo Steph wearing it on Friday.
I asked her for more of a photo and she said,
Fridays aren't for my full face. So maybe clip of
this podcast will make it onto Instagram and you can
see Steff's beautiful face wearing our Shei's Gay Marcus hat.
(01:14):
Do you love it?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Thank you? I love it. It's actually so comfortable. It's the
perfect fit. I have this one hat that I thrifted
from Value Village that has two cows on it, and
oh I love that hat Switzerland and it has a
little bell, like an actual physical bell, and this gives
the same kind of format and feedback to my head.
And I really really am happy I have another one
of those.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
You know, yeah, you look so good at it. I
feel like this is going to be your hat of
the entire year, considering you watch so many hockey games
and so much women's sports too. I am being so
kind to everyone. I want Giesters to buy the hat,
and I don't want to take it if somebody wants it,
because we have literally none left, and so I'm like
the very few that we have, I want to make
(01:56):
sure Gester's get it before I get it, so hopefully,
well actually not hopefully. I hope they sell out and
I can't even have one of these hats, is what
I hope. But I think we literally have like five left,
So if you haven't bought it yet, shopped off the
just sports dot Com.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I might have to grow my hair out again so
I can get the hockey girl bun.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Oh, the hockey girl bun. If you're not familiar, steph low.
It's a low bun beneath the helmet that also looks
so good in a hat.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yes, it looks really good in a hat.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I have a bob right now, and I'm like, needs
a bun. Oh.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I love a hockey bun so much. There's something that
I love about a hockey bun coming out of a
helmet versus the ponytail. I don't know what it is,
but I love the hockey bun. I think also, when
I was a kid, I was all about perfecting the
messy bun. And now I look at my hair and
I go, I actually crush a messi bun. And so
I feel like when I was younger, whoever could do
(02:48):
a bun well, I was like, you're so cool. I
don't know why, but that was in my head. Cool
with four buns.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
With the wrap in soccer, just like every day, just.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
In general, every day bun, hockey bun soccern whatever it was.
If you had a bun, I thought you were the.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Shit it was of the time.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, you were a hun if you were wearing a bun. Anyway,
with that horrible joke, let's talk. Let's talk about women's
basketball because we are so excited about the growth and
the WNBA right now. There's some really big things that
are happening over i'd say the next few weeks that
we're really excited about. The WNBA announced its expansion plans
(03:27):
yesterday aka Monday that will bring teams to Cleveland, Detroit,
and Philadelphia over the next five years. You know, Steph
is so excited about Detroit. You know, I am so
excited about Philadelphia, and we are just thrilled that the
league in general is growing. So that means quick math,
by twenty thirty, the WNBA will have eighteen teams, topping
(03:51):
the league's previous peak of sixteen in two thousand and two, which,
of course they had to actually stop some teams from
playing in two thousand and two. So this is a
huge step in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Which is common. It's happened in the NBA and another
couple of sports leagues they had, you know, they expanded
and contracted and expanded again, so it's not unique to the.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
W Yeah, I'm so glad that you said that, So
we have to talk about these record setting expansion fees
that these new teams are getting. All three new teams
had to pay to get in on the WNBA action
because the WNBA doesn't own these teams in comparison to
PWHL that actually owns every single team. So there's a
lot of tea for us to share, and there's a
(04:33):
lot of just exciting. We're happy this entire episode.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, thrilled, and I can't wait to ask you some
questions about how you feel about certain things when we
get to that section, Team I got, I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
I can't wait anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Okay, so that's what we're gonna talk about in our
one Big story. But before we get there, we of
course need to call an audible because that's the other
section that we've added to the podcast this year after
our fifth birthday celebrat So before we gaze into the
future of the WNBA, we got to focus on the here,
the now, and that is the fifth Annual Commissioner's Cup,
(05:07):
which is happening tonight Tuesday at eight pm Eastern Time,
as well as maybe All Stars.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Maybe maybe we'll get into that. I'm not sure if
we have time, have time. But the Commissioner's Cup, for
those of you who don't know, is the WNBA's n
season tournament that promises a major payday to the winning team.
And so basically what happens is there's a certain amount
of games per regular season that count as points toward
the Commissioner's Cup. When you're playing against your other conference rivals,
(05:38):
the top team in each conference basically make it to
the Commissioner's Cup. It's very similar to the NBA's n
season tournament. In the NBA is that one called oh
they changed the name this year. Oh, anyway, but it's
the NBA. It's very similar to the NBA's in season
tournament because they famously said, oh, this really worked for
the WNBA to drive viewership at the beginning of this season.
(06:00):
We are going to copy and paste and do that.
So players on the winning team take them thirty thousand
dollars each with a five K bonus for the team's MVP,
and players for the losing team each make ten K.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
That's huge. Keep in mind too, W salaries, right, W.
It's very different than the NBA. I'm sure there's some
dudes who didn't care about the paycheck for that in
season tournament, but any who series is from contact.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
WNBA players make between seventy to five hundred, essentially one
thousand dollars, and NBA players make anywhere from eight hundred
thousand to thirty five million a year even more than that.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
This year for the WNBA Commissioner's Cup, it's the league
leading Minnesota Links up against the Indiana Fever. The Links
did when last year and are of course eager to
defend the title. They want to go back to back.
But this is the Fever's first appearance in the tournament,
so I mean it is relatively new, and keep that
in mind. I think it's only been happening for what
four years, But yeah, that's gonna be the first.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
I think people are really interested to see if Kaitlyn
Clark is going to suit up. She didn't play against
the Dallas Wings over the weekend, which was really too
bad because it was supposed to be this Pagebeckers versus
Caitlyn Clark's showdown. She has missed the last two games
with the groin injury. I don't think she is obviously
the only player on the Fever who is good. They
have this big team around her, But in a sport
(07:21):
like basketball, you need to have your star players play,
and she is obviously one of the best. For the Fever, well,
I will say those Steph. Nafisa Collier is that girl
I think the Minnesota of the Minnesota Links. I think
she goes under the radar because she almost has this
under the radar personality. She's someone who leads by example
and lets her play on the court do the talking.
(07:44):
And she does not get enough airtime in my opinion,
not only on TV, but more importantly on social media.
And I think social media is driving a lot of
the rhetoric around the WNBA right now, and a lot
of it on social is surrounding Caitlyn Clark. But if
you watch Nafisa Collier and also Courtney Williams on the
Minnesota Length But Nafisa Collier, to me, hands down, is
(08:08):
the best player in the WNBA right now. And I
really hope, and I really do think that Minnesota is
going to beat the Fever because of her play.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
They've only lost two games so far the Minnesota Lenks,
and that is when Collier was sidelined.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
So she's so good. Who do you think is gonna win?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Links?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Okay, This episode of The Gist of It is brought
to you by Amazon Business. As a startup founder, finding
a few minutes for myself between meetings is a gift,
and I don't want to spend that time ordering office
supplies when I could be taking a deep breath and
focusing on big picture moves. For the gist, That's why
Amazon Business is the ultimate partner for smart business. Buying
a paid Amazon Business Prime membership gives your company access
(08:51):
to automatic purchasing that helps take the guesswork out of restocking.
Your time is money, so simplify supply shopping with Amazon Business.
As we talked about at the top of the podcast,
the WNBA is expanding. The news was announced on Monday,
(09:13):
aka yesterday, and the minute that news dropped, our producing
teen said, hold our beers, we know exactly what we're
going to be producing for the gist of It today,
we are going to be talking about WNBA expansion. As
I mentioned already, the league is growing again and we'll
reach a record eighteen teams by twenty thirty.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
It's just when this news dropped on Monday, I was shocked.
I like, originally we thought we were stopping at sixteen
originally and then boom an announcement that was kind of
out of the nowhere for me? Was it out of
the non I.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Feel like the timing makes sense ahead of something like
WNBA All Star. And I say that as well because
a lot of business gets done at WNBA All Star
and a lot of people who make a lot of
decisions around the basketball ecosystem are going to be in
Indianapolis in a few weekends, and so having that information
about additional teams while heading into a business weekend where
(10:12):
deals are being made, to me, I think that makes sense.
You've been at Alson, I've been at Alsta, and I
will be there and I will be there this weekend
as well, this upcoming weekend. So a team in Cleveland
will hit the hardwood in twenty twenty eight, a Detroit
squad will debut in twenty twenty nine, and Billy will
finally have a pro women's hoops team again starting in
(10:33):
twenty thirty. And if Don Staley, Philly's finest isn't coaching
that team, I will throw, I will brawl. I will
brawl Don Bhilly needs.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
You wait, didn't she did she play for Philly or
did she play for Detroit or Houston.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
No, she's from She's from Philly.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
She's from Philly.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Who's still there?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
For she played in the W, didn't she?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, she played in the W. I can't remember the
game the team that she played for.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I'm googling it. Charlotte Sting. The one team I didn't mention, basically.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
One of those teams up folded?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, one another one? Yeah, anyhoosers, But yeah, this is
so exciting. Basically, what this means is twenty twenty seven
is the only year in the foreseeable future where we're
not getting a new team. Two new teams in twenty
twenty six Portland Toronto and then boom Break twenty twenty seven,
twenty twenty eight. We got another twenty twenty nine, twenty
twenty three.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I really like how you explain that. That tickled my
brain really nicely. And I also think what's so cool, Steff,
is that all the expansion teams of late have absolutely
crushed it. And I think that's what we kind of
want to get into today, is that the Golden State Valkyries,
I think, have made people so excited for expansion teams
in ways that people haven't been excited about expansion teams beforehand,
(11:47):
I think they've maybe been a little bit more apprehensive.
But because of success from them, and because of success
of expansion teams in other leagues like the NWSL and NHL,
I think people are more stoked to place bet because
it feels like less of a gamble.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
And that's kind of where I was coming from when
I said it feels like it was out of known work,
because there was this period in a time where we
were badgering, like we the fans were badgering the WNBA
to expand, and they were being so what felt like
cautious and slow compared to you know, like the NWSL,
who was expanding super super rapidly and fast. And so
that's kind of where my head was at. And then
(12:23):
all of a sudden we get all of these amazing
expansions and news. But of course it's a different time
even then, like three, four or five years.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Ago, and they are still being intentional. It's it's one
team at a time over the next five years.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, No, there's except for except yeah, but still what
we're going to talk about, We're going to talk about
the two interesting aspects of the WNBA landscape. To look
into ahead of this, just explosion and expansion, and the
first being team valuations because again it's not like the PDOHL.
They're all owned individually and overall fan appetite for the WNBA.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So let's start off with some of the team valuations.
Each of the three expansion teams payday wait for it,
zef a two one hundred and fifty million dollar expansion fee.
This is five times as much as the fee the
Golden State Valkyries paid in twenty twenty three. This expansion
fee for each of these teams is far and away
(13:26):
the largest sum ever paid for a new women's sports
franchise in the US. This mark previously belonged to the
Denver NWSL team, who is joining us in the next season,
which is very exciting. The Denver team was one hundred
and ten million dollars to join the league. Now this
is two hundred and fifty.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
And this makes sense right given that this expansion is
coming off the heels of skyrocketing team valuations. According to
Sportico's most recent numbers about those, the average WNBA franchise
is worth an estimated two hundred and sixty nine million,
up one hundred and eighty percent year over year, and
(14:08):
in the inaugural season for the Golden State Valkyries, they
topped the latest valuation list at five hundred million. And
again they didn't pay two to fifty million to expand
they paid like they paid fifty They paid fifty fifty
five zero.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
It was around fifty and fifty or fifty two or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
So they're at the top of the list when it
comes to franchise valuations. So we have the Valkyries sitting
at five hundred, New York Liberty at four to twenty million,
in Indiana Fever at three hundred and thirty five million.
So those are the top three evaluations or valuations. Sorry
I always want to say evaluations.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I know is that.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Business took one thing too when we talk about this
in our women's sports business newsletter, So if you're not aware,
we have a sports business newsletter that covers the business
side of women's sports. Specifically, you could subscribe to it
at the Just sports dot com and then you'll see
a business tab And we actually covered some of this
recently because of the New York Liberties four hundred and
twenty MILLI valuation, the Golden State Valkyries five hundred million valuation,
(15:03):
and I think, Steph, what's interesting here is there's two
things that I think we need to also look at
with these specific cities having such high valuations. One is
their winning. These teams are winning. When you look at
the New York Liberty in particular, teams that win do better.
The Indiana Fever has also increased wildly. The Las Vegas
Saces have increased wildly. The Las Vegas Saces and the
(15:26):
New York Liberty, I think you could arguably say over
the last four years, are consistently two of the top teams.
I think the other thing in this stuff when you're
looking at the top valuation of Golden State, New York, Indiana,
and Las Vegas is cultural influence. And that to me,
New York is always going to have a cultural influence
(15:46):
on basketball. I think you look at Indiana Fever and
you think about Caitlin Clark, but you look at the
Golden State Valkyries and how they are changing and shaping
I think the business side of basketball, but also welcoming
in different fans in the Bay Area that hasn't always
seen success in fandom and has seen a lot of
teams leave the Bay Area unfortunately in the last few years.
(16:06):
I really think that there's something here for each of
these new teams, these new expansion teams coming in Detroit,
Cleveland and Philly, to be thinking about, of course, obviously winning,
but to really be thinking about what is that cultural influence,
what is that thing they're doing, How are they becoming cool,
how are they becoming the top of the town so
that their valuations will skyrocket from here.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
And I'm looking at a chart here that organizes from
top to lowest, or however number wise you want to.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Call the highest to lowest.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
And I'm looking at the front half, and you know
what I think of investment. These teams have heavily invested
in their players and the facilities and everything else. And
I'm looking at the lower ones and I'm thinking, oh,
we've talked about the fact that they don't have a
practice facility, that they don't have X, y Z compared
to you know, the New York Liberty. So you're righting
to say, with putting a high evaluation, high valuation. Sorry
(17:02):
with that, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Drop that mic stuff. That was perfect. I love that analysis.
That was so good. And even the bottom teams, the
Atlanta Dream in the Connecticut Sun. They're valued at one
hundred and sixty five and one hundred and eighty million, respectively,
and that is a huge jump from where they were,
so they're still trending up into the right. The other thing, Steff,
that you mentioned so league valuations are one reason why
(17:24):
we're seeing more expansion. They're growing, and they're growing because
they're good teams in the top line. Revenue is there
and that's really what they're based off of his revenue
and potential. But the other thing is fan appetite, and.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
The league's growing. The fan appetite is growing. The Toronto
Tempo they're arriving in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Six A as.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Well as the Sorry Torontonian if you're new here as
the yet to be named WNBA Portland team with the
newest three squads of course, joining in twenty twenty eight
and Portland has already had ten thousand ticket deposits. Wow,
echoing the fan demand that the Valkri saw last season.
They don't even have a name yet.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Like this is fresh and viewership and attendance are at
an all time high, but they're consistently high, so it's
not like random peaks here and there. Teams across the
league are seeing booms and attendance in viewership, and these
metrics were already increasing year over year before the spike
that we saw last season due in part to the
(18:23):
twenty twenty four WNBA Draft class.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
And I think we have a lot to owe to
that WNBA Draft class. I don't really want to glaze
over that too. And it's something that Super talks about
a lot, is that the Kaitlin Clark effect, the Angel
Reefs effect, the Cameron Brink effect, the Aliyah Edwards effect,
all of that could happen because there was an ecosystem
that was ready for it to happen in at Too
(18:47):
Boom and those were the right athletes to help take
it to that next level. And we're so glad that
those athletes came around at that time to kick it
up that notch And I think what's really cool to
Steph when you're talking about sm viewership. There are slight
drops when Caitlyn Clark isn't playing for the Fever, but
(19:07):
some of those Fever games are still some of the
top watch games when she is not playing, and so
I think that also says a lot too, is that.
I think a lot of people were like, is it okay?
What if something big happens to Caitlin? Does that change
to the trajectory of the league. And I think, finally
the answer is no. We have built up enough of
a fandom that's a true fandom. And there's probably a
(19:29):
lot of people who came in with that twenty twenty
four draft class that have now properly converted into avid
fans that are like, no, we're here to stay, regardless
of actually who's on the court.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
For the twenty twenty five draft, they had a record
breaking two point four or five million people tuned into that,
so good, People's yes, that's a new class, baby, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Let's say class new page hold, new pay and a
whole new page hold, new page wreckers. And then the
last thing too, and I think, to me, this is
the biggest thing. There's a new media rights deal and
that's part of the NBA deal. The WNBA will earn
two point two billion with the b over eleven years,
and this is six times more than their previous deal
with ESPN. And so because of that, the league also
(20:09):
has money. And I think even more than the league
having money, stuff. I feel like they feel like they
finally have the resources and the partners and the tools
to be able to support eighteen teams. I think beforehand
they were like, are we at the right place that
we could actually be a support to all these other
teams and champion all of them and be there and
(20:30):
help them grow. Whereas now the WNBA as a league
itself is finally saying, yeah, we're ready to take on
this new challenge because of we have all of these
other tools in place.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, it's just kind of wild to think about the
fact that we went from two thousand and eight pretty
much to twenty twenty five with no expansion teams. So
the last one was Atlanta Dream twenty twenty five was
the Golden State valgrise. So what a time?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Eh, such a time. So we've talked about team valuations
and fan expansion being the main reason why we're seeing
three new teams come on and the main reason why
they are driving this two hundred and fifty million dollar
expansion fee. But let's take a couple minutes, because we
don't have that much shy, but let's take a couple
minutes and talk about why the WNBA chose Cleveland, Detroit,
(21:13):
and Philly.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
One of the or the largest thing that screams at
me is NBA infrastructure with all of these three teams,
and they have huge, massive, massive basketball histories each one
of these cities. The three most recent expansion teams were
selected based on this is according to the WNBA market
viability committed long term ownership groups, potential for significant fan corporate, media,
(21:38):
and city and state support, as well as arena and
practice facilities, and community commitment to advancing the sport. There
were other ones, but that was the ones that the
league really highlighted in terms of how they came to
these three teams.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I really like what you were talking about about Steph beforehand,
the top teams with the highest valuations having investment in
the leagues, and you think about the relationship that the
Warriors have with the Valkyries, that the Brooklyn Nets have
with the New York Liberty, you can see that trend here.
So in Cleveland, that team is going to be owned
and operated by Rock Entertainment Group, which is aka the
(22:12):
Cleveland Cavaliers owner and Dan Gilbert. Then when we move
to Detroit, STEPH, it's owned and operated by Tom and
Holly Gores, who also owns the Detroit Pistons. And then
when we go to Philly, it's owned and operated by
Harris Splitzer Sports and Entertainment HBSc, which is Josh Harrison Co.
Who owned a bunch of pro sports teams, training cards
(22:33):
and whatever. But they also own the seventy six Ers,
they own the Washington Commanders, and they also own the
NHL's New Jersey Devils. And so when you look at
those ownership groups, to me, I see greencheck, greencheck, greencheck.
They know what they're doing. And I think also to
Steph they can bring a new level of sophistication also
(22:55):
to the WNBA based off of their ownership. And I
don't know, you look at the Claire Wosaw and everything
that the Si family has done with the New York Liberty,
so much of that is because of their learnings with
the Brooklyn Nets and how they could actually run a
franchise in a really interesting way, but in a way
that's gonna help them win championships in a way that's
(23:15):
going to drive valuation.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Those are all great points. So that's who got the bid,
and why let's think about hooting at a bid, Because
of course we were presented with an absolutely massive list
a couple of years ago before the tempo were even
announced of who who was on who had considerations.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, so bids were from Kansas City, Austin, Nashville, Houston, Miami, Denver,
and Charlotte. And I think, I think, honestly, Seph, when
you think of those cities, Miami is the most interesting
to me. And Miami, I think is also interesting because
of unrivaled building, its space there, especially in the off season.
(23:56):
It's known as a hub for basketball. It's known as
this growing entertainment place for sports. It's known as this
booming district for business as well as art. But I
just don't know if they're they're quite yet. I think
that they're still. I think the WNBA is really smart
and being like we are working with owners of major league.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Teams, you know what. Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner of the
WNBA said, she reportedly has her eyes on Houston for
a future expansion because Houston is also one of those
teams that lost it or one of those cities that
lost their team. So they had the Houston comments before,
and apparently to the WNBA they're looking promising perhaps, but
again no timeline for any more expansion, and they did.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I mean, Detroit had the Detroit Shock before too, you know,
so I think that that's really cool as well. And
I'm so excited as a result to see what Detroit
does with the naming, with the imagery, with all of
that sort of stuff. Do they call back to it?
Do they not call back to it? You know what
I mean, all of these things we have to look
forward to.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, so real quick, So Charlotte or sorry not Charlotte,
My bad? That was? That was But the Cleveland Cleveland
also had a team Cleveland Rockers, And so both Cleveland
and Detroit are saying using the same name or the
previous name is not out of the question, but it's
not a for sure thing. So they might be the
Cleveland Rockers again, and it might be the Detroit Shock again.
(25:18):
So I'm really really fascinated to see how that unfolds
and which way alumna lean if they wanted to come
back or not, and how the people in those cities
want the name to go.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Really interesting. Oh my gosh, it's just so exciting. Women's
basketball is growing. We're so excited to be a part
of this time. We us thinking of this podcast when
we did it way back in twenty twenty us thinking
about having five different teams coming into the WNBA before
twenty thirty, I don't think would have been in our
(25:50):
Bengo card and we are just so lucky to be here.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
So lucky. Another shout out to Amazon Business for sponsoring
this episode. If there's one thing Amazon specializes in, it's convenience,
and that's true of both their personal and business programs.
When you sign your company up for Amazon Business, you
receive access to deals on countless office items in addition
to fast, reliable shipping. Make the easy choice for your
small business and choose Amazon Business for all your work
(26:17):
related purchases. Now it's time for our personal training SASH.
This is where we'll answer your heart hitting questions about anything,
and we mean anything in the sports world.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
If you'd like to be featured on a future episode,
please call and leave us a voicemail at one four
three seven five six four five five seven nine. We
are also accepting mail big requests through email pod atthjisports
dot com, or you can DM Steph and I on
a group chat at Sephanie Rots and at Ellenethangist on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
And today we are taking a question from Leah from Toronto,
so thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Hit it Hi, Stephan Ellen. My name is Leah and
I'm calling from Toronto Happy Pride month. I just had
a question about what your thoughts are on games that
have different rules or structures based on gender. I know
in one of your previous episodes you were talking about
(27:25):
Rolling Garrison the French Open, but I was wondering if
there's any other sports that could kind of lead to
a bigger conversation about this. But yeah, I'd love to
hear what your thoughts are about it.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Bye, Leah, thank you so much for calling in. We
really really appreciate it. My sister's name is also Leah,
and Leah also lives in Toronto. And I know that
you're not my sister, but I think maybe you and
my sister should be friends, and I think that that's
so fun. Also Happy Pride as well. We know that
(27:58):
we're officially out of June, but we're always celebrating Pride
at the gist a bit and asked the just as
a company. I think that's very fair to say. Loved
your question.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, let's give some backgrounds. So Leah is referencing episode
four sixty five, which we'll put in the show notes
and the TLDR about that one was the friends shopmen
did not schedule a single women's singles match in primetime
this year. And one of the reasons why is they
just said, like, oh, you know, like the ticket value
is not the same because men play best of five
(28:30):
sets at Grand Slams versus the women play what is it,
best of three yllenh So that was one of the
reasons why they were saying they wanted to give fans
like value or something some bull hockey like that.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
It's bull hockey, especially because the five set for the
men versus the three set for the women is also
bull hockey, And a lot of it was based on
can women play five sets? Women and men in the
ATP and WNBA Regular, WVa and w regular tournaments, they
both play three sets. The men are like, why the
(29:05):
hell are we playing five in these Grand Slams or
these majors. They also only want to play three, or
the women are like, we can play five two. Actually
women have better endurance than men, so why aren't we
doing that exact thing? So I think there's a double
edged sword here where it's already sexist that women don't
play the same amount of sets as men, and then
(29:27):
they're leveraging that for not putting them in at primetime.
And then I also think what's tough Steph, is that
the French Open was bad, and it's been bad for
seven years. I think it was when you looked back,
even nine years, when you looked back, there was only
a couple matches each tournament that were actually played in primetime.
(29:47):
But it's also been disappointing, at least to me, that
there's been some Wimbledon matches that I think should have
been in primetime that weren't in primetime. I think when
you look at Coco Gov's match, to me, Coco Goff
should be at primetime every single time that she plays.
I think that you look at Sabalanca, she should be
on primetime every time that she plays. And yes, I'm
(30:09):
saying that they should be on primetime over some of
the biggest men's names, because their names are bigger than
some of the biggest men's names right now and people
want to tune in. And I think that also Wimblin's
probably missing out on some money by not putting them
at the primetime so that people can watch, but also
so that people in England can enjoy properly too.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Okay, so let's really drill down on Lea's question. So
she asked us if there were any other sports that
could kind of lead a bigger conversation about having different
rules or different structures based on gender. I think of
two sports, and I'm gonna be biased with this one.
I'm so sorry. I think of gymnastics and I think
of hockey because I think, like you said, with the
(30:52):
five sets versus three sets for men and women in tennis,
I think it's we always should in default to the
men's being the best, like the rules for like having
to have the women mirror or copy exactly what the
men are doing, because I don't always agree with the
men's rules being the best rules for that sport. One
thing that is constantly talked about in hockey is checking
(31:14):
and hitting and fighting, and Ellen and I disagree on this,
but like right now, women aren't. They don't have the
same rules or the same allowances for fighting and for
hitting that men and doing hockey. But I don't think
that that should be exist in the sport, and in
men's hockey either, and people often say put like women's
gymnasts against men's gymnastsing women don't have the upper body strength,
(31:35):
what have you. But I would like to see the
men do more of what than women do because I
find that so visually entertaining in this whole, like grunt
show my strength aspect of it is less appealing to
me personally.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
So I think two step in gymnastics, it's less about
showing strengths. In gymnastics, they do different exercises. So like
the men don't do the beam, the women don't do
the pommel horse. The men do the rings, they don't
do the uneven bars, and they haven't adjusted them. They've
(32:07):
adjusted those what would you call this, those tricks, those skills,
whatever they're called. The gymnastics purely based off of physics
and purely based off of men's and women's bodies are different.
You actually can't compare the best men's gymnast of all
time to the best women's gymnasts of all time because
you know what, the men can't do what the women
(32:28):
can do, and some women aren't able to do what
the men can do. There was this really good TikTok
that actually broke all of this down that I literally
watched two days ago, and that's why I feel like
I'm an expert on this. I will say though, the
person the man who put this together was like Simone
Biles is that female gymnast who can actually do so
many of the men's events, which is just so cool
(32:49):
and just like continues to show that she's the goat.
But in gymnastics, they just respect each other's craft. There
isn't this comparison because they truly are just like we
are doing different tricks and different skills based off of
the way that our bodies are made.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
But like there's less there's like a little bit more
dancy dance in some women's gymnastics that I think men's
gymnastics could get. Like on the floor.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, I think artistry is really cool. Like for me
as a figure skater, I'm like, I love being able
to have a creative aspect and outlet and men probably
could potentially do that too if they wanted to, But
that would be the other thing too, set that I
actually really enjoy about figure skating. And that's what I
was going to say in this comparison to I find
(33:32):
women's figure skating and men's figure skating when you're looking
at singles really interesting because it is similar to tennis,
and that there is pair when they're jumping, and there's
dance pairs as well and their teammates. In the same way,
there's mixed doubles too, And then in men's singles and
women's singles, the men do more quads. The women generally
(33:53):
don't have any quads in their program. The women are
squads four times four times ors just three times. The
women tend to be, in my opinion, way better skaters
and like stronger and more autistic, and the men really
focus in on those jumps and they don't. At the
end of the day, you still love the program for
(34:15):
the program and watching it for what you're watching it.
And to me, when I watch a men's tennis match
and a women's tennis match, I'm like, I'm obsessed with both.
They're both so good. I love watching all of them.
I just want to watch the best match that's on
at that time. And I think that figure skating and
gymnastics in particular do a really good job at actually
(34:37):
also having those figure skaters be friends, like with each
other and stand up for each other. And we need
an Andy Murray of this generation to be speaking out
about this, like we need Autcraz to be speaking out,
We need Skinner to be speaking out, like we need
these guys to be saying I also want to watch
all of these women at primetime. What the hell are
we doing? You know, like we need someone to be
(34:59):
saying that.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah. I think the important thing to sum up would be,
are the rules or the structures different based on preconceived
notions of what women and men should be doing, on
what femininity should be and should look like, or is
it based on something like the physics and the fact
of at all, like you said for the uneven bars
(35:22):
and the what have you in gymnastics, because I do
think that it is limiting men in some aspects when
it comes to artistry, whether it's in gymnasts or synchronized swimming,
which I don't even think they do in groups, Like
there are so many things that I think punish men
in the sense of not to be like a male apologist,
but like they really make them focus on the strength
(35:43):
of it all and don't allow them their full aspect
of humanity when it comes to those types of things.
And that's the same thing I feel like in hockey,
the fighting is bad because it leads to injury, it
leads to your players being out. Like, there's so many
things where I'm like, Okay, what is this rule rooted in?
Is it trying to make men and fight and whatever
and women soft and junior? And I think, like, that's
(36:03):
what you have to be asking yourself when you're thinking
about these rules.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Leah, I don't think you expected us to get into
a master's program when you ask this question, but we
really appreciate how thoughtful and smart it is. And again,
for anyone else who wants to be a part of
a future personal training sash dm us email us call
us at the link of the show notes, we really
really have fun and appreciate these.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
And with that, that marks the end of today's episode.
We truly could have talked forever about both of these topics,
so we did our best to make it short. So
thank you so much for tuning in and sticking to
the end.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
This episode was edited by Savannah Held and produced by
Lisa Mantilo and Aleixandra Puccio. Again, I'm Ail and Hisslap
Speaker 2 (36:42):
And I'm Steph Rott and call us at the number
in the show notes or dms or email us and
be on the next podcast so we'll chat with you again.
Hello, Hello, Hello jisters. Welcome or welcome back to another
episode of the Gist of It. Today is July first.
To all of our Canadians listening, hope you are enjoying
a day off. We know that July fourth is later
this week. We're your co hosts. I'm Ellen Hislop.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And I'm Steph Rotts, and none of those holidays fall
on podcast recordings, so we're here all week this weekend next.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Y'all are so lucky you're stuck with seven I weather
or not you like it. We have a lot to
get to today, a lot of it in women's basketball
and the WNBA in particular. First though, thank you so
much to everyone who listened to our podcast on Thursday
and purchased our She's Gay Marcus hats. We are basically
(00:51):
sold out again, which is really amazing. Yes, and Steph
is wearing that She's Gay Marcus hat right now. We
put We showed a little photo Steph wearing it on Friday.
I asked her for more of a photo and she said,
Fridays aren't for my full face. So maybe clip of
this podcast will make it onto Instagram and you can
see Steff's beautiful face wearing our Shei's Gay Marcus hat.
(01:14):
Do you love it?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Thank you? I love it. It's actually so comfortable. It's the
perfect fit. I have this one hat that I thrifted
from Value Village that has two cows on it, and
oh I love that hat Switzerland and it has a
little bell, like an actual physical bell, and this gives
the same kind of format and feedback to my head.
And I really really am happy I have another one
of those.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
You know, yeah, you look so good at it. I
feel like this is going to be your hat of
the entire year, considering you watch so many hockey games
and so much women's sports too. I am being so
kind to everyone. I want Giesters to buy the hat,
and I don't want to take it if somebody wants it,
because we have literally none left, and so I'm like
the very few that we have, I want to make
(01:56):
sure Gester's get it before I get it, so hopefully,
well actually not hopefully. I hope they sell out and
I can't even have one of these hats, is what
I hope. But I think we literally have like five left,
So if you haven't bought it yet, shopped off the
just sports dot Com.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I might have to grow my hair out again so
I can get the hockey girl bun.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Oh, the hockey girl bun. If you're not familiar, steph low.
It's a low bun beneath the helmet that also looks
so good in a hat.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yes, it looks really good in a hat.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I have a bob right now, and I'm like, needs
a bun. Oh.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I love a hockey bun so much. There's something that
I love about a hockey bun coming out of a
helmet versus the ponytail. I don't know what it is,
but I love the hockey bun. I think also, when
I was a kid, I was all about perfecting the
messy bun. And now I look at my hair and
I go, I actually crush a messi bun. And so
I feel like when I was younger, whoever could do
(02:48):
a bun well, I was like, you're so cool. I
don't know why, but that was in my head. Cool
with four buns.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
With the wrap in soccer, just like every day, just.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
In general, every day bun, hockey bun soccern whatever it was.
If you had a bun, I thought you were the.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Shit it was of the time.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, you were a hun if you were wearing a bun. Anyway,
with that horrible joke, let's talk. Let's talk about women's
basketball because we are so excited about the growth and
the WNBA right now. There's some really big things that
are happening over i'd say the next few weeks that
we're really excited about. The WNBA announced its expansion plans
(03:27):
yesterday aka Monday that will bring teams to Cleveland, Detroit,
and Philadelphia over the next five years. You know, Steph
is so excited about Detroit. You know, I am so
excited about Philadelphia, and we are just thrilled that the
league in general is growing. So that means quick math,
by twenty thirty, the WNBA will have eighteen teams, topping
(03:51):
the league's previous peak of sixteen in two thousand and two, which,
of course they had to actually stop some teams from
playing in two thousand and two. So this is a
huge step in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Which is common. It's happened in the NBA and another
couple of sports leagues they had, you know, they expanded
and contracted and expanded again, so it's not unique to the.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
W Yeah, I'm so glad that you said that, So
we have to talk about these record setting expansion fees
that these new teams are getting. All three new teams
had to pay to get in on the WNBA action
because the WNBA doesn't own these teams in comparison to
PWHL that actually owns every single team. So there's a
lot of tea for us to share, and there's a
(04:33):
lot of just exciting. We're happy this entire episode.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, thrilled, and I can't wait to ask you some
questions about how you feel about certain things when we
get to that section, Team I got, I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
I can't wait anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Okay, so that's what we're gonna talk about in our
one Big story. But before we get there, we of
course need to call an audible because that's the other
section that we've added to the podcast this year after
our fifth birthday celebrat So before we gaze into the
future of the WNBA, we got to focus on the here,
the now, and that is the fifth Annual Commissioner's Cup,
(05:07):
which is happening tonight Tuesday at eight pm Eastern Time,
as well as maybe All Stars.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Maybe maybe we'll get into that. I'm not sure if
we have time, have time. But the Commissioner's Cup, for
those of you who don't know, is the WNBA's n
season tournament that promises a major payday to the winning team.
And so basically what happens is there's a certain amount
of games per regular season that count as points toward
the Commissioner's Cup. When you're playing against your other conference rivals,
(05:38):
the top team in each conference basically make it to
the Commissioner's Cup. It's very similar to the NBA's n
season tournament. In the NBA is that one called oh
they changed the name this year. Oh, anyway, but it's
the NBA. It's very similar to the NBA's in season
tournament because they famously said, oh, this really worked for
the WNBA to drive viewership at the beginning of this season.
(06:00):
We are going to copy and paste and do that.
So players on the winning team take them thirty thousand
dollars each with a five K bonus for the team's MVP,
and players for the losing team each make ten K.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
That's huge. Keep in mind too, W salaries, right, W.
It's very different than the NBA. I'm sure there's some
dudes who didn't care about the paycheck for that in
season tournament, but any who series is from contact.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
WNBA players make between seventy to five hundred, essentially one
thousand dollars, and NBA players make anywhere from eight hundred
thousand to thirty five million a year even more than that.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
This year for the WNBA Commissioner's Cup, it's the league
leading Minnesota Links up against the Indiana Fever. The Links
did when last year and are of course eager to
defend the title. They want to go back to back.
But this is the Fever's first appearance in the tournament,
so I mean it is relatively new, and keep that
in mind. I think it's only been happening for what
four years, But yeah, that's gonna be the first.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
I think people are really interested to see if Kaitlyn
Clark is going to suit up. She didn't play against
the Dallas Wings over the weekend, which was really too
bad because it was supposed to be this Pagebeckers versus
Caitlyn Clark's showdown. She has missed the last two games
with the groin injury. I don't think she is obviously
the only player on the Fever who is good. They
have this big team around her, But in a sport
(07:21):
like basketball, you need to have your star players play,
and she is obviously one of the best. For the Fever, well,
I will say those Steph. Nafisa Collier is that girl
I think the Minnesota of the Minnesota Links. I think
she goes under the radar because she almost has this
under the radar personality. She's someone who leads by example
and lets her play on the court do the talking.
(07:44):
And she does not get enough airtime in my opinion,
not only on TV, but more importantly on social media.
And I think social media is driving a lot of
the rhetoric around the WNBA right now, and a lot
of it on social is surrounding Caitlyn Clark. But if
you watch Nafisa Collier and also Courtney Williams on the
Minnesota Length But Nafisa Collier, to me, hands down, is
(08:08):
the best player in the WNBA right now. And I
really hope, and I really do think that Minnesota is
going to beat the Fever because of her play.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
They've only lost two games so far the Minnesota Lenks,
and that is when Collier was sidelined.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
So she's so good. Who do you think is gonna win?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Links?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Okay, This episode of The Gist of It is brought
to you by Amazon Business. As a startup founder, finding
a few minutes for myself between meetings is a gift,
and I don't want to spend that time ordering office
supplies when I could be taking a deep breath and
focusing on big picture moves. For the gist, That's why
Amazon Business is the ultimate partner for smart business. Buying
a paid Amazon Business Prime membership gives your company access
(08:51):
to automatic purchasing that helps take the guesswork out of restocking.
Your time is money, so simplify supply shopping with Amazon Business.
As we talked about at the top of the podcast,
the WNBA is expanding. The news was announced on Monday,
(09:13):
aka yesterday, and the minute that news dropped, our producing
teen said, hold our beers, we know exactly what we're
going to be producing for the gist of It today,
we are going to be talking about WNBA expansion. As
I mentioned already, the league is growing again and we'll
reach a record eighteen teams by twenty thirty.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
It's just when this news dropped on Monday, I was shocked.
I like, originally we thought we were stopping at sixteen
originally and then boom an announcement that was kind of
out of the nowhere for me? Was it out of
the non I.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Feel like the timing makes sense ahead of something like
WNBA All Star. And I say that as well because
a lot of business gets done at WNBA All Star
and a lot of people who make a lot of
decisions around the basketball ecosystem are going to be in
Indianapolis in a few weekends, and so having that information
about additional teams while heading into a business weekend where
(10:12):
deals are being made, to me, I think that makes sense.
You've been at Alson, I've been at Alsta, and I
will be there and I will be there this weekend
as well, this upcoming weekend. So a team in Cleveland
will hit the hardwood in twenty twenty eight, a Detroit
squad will debut in twenty twenty nine, and Billy will
finally have a pro women's hoops team again starting in
(10:33):
twenty thirty. And if Don Staley, Philly's finest isn't coaching
that team, I will throw, I will brawl. I will
brawl Don Bhilly needs.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
You wait, didn't she did she play for Philly or
did she play for Detroit or Houston.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
No, she's from She's from Philly.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
She's from Philly.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Who's still there?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
For she played in the W, didn't she?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, she played in the W. I can't remember the
game the team that she played for.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I'm googling it. Charlotte Sting. The one team I didn't mention, basically.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
One of those teams up folded?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, one another one? Yeah, anyhoosers, But yeah, this is
so exciting. Basically, what this means is twenty twenty seven
is the only year in the foreseeable future where we're
not getting a new team. Two new teams in twenty
twenty six Portland Toronto and then boom Break twenty twenty seven,
twenty twenty eight. We got another twenty twenty nine, twenty
twenty three.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I really like how you explain that. That tickled my
brain really nicely. And I also think what's so cool, Steff,
is that all the expansion teams of late have absolutely
crushed it. And I think that's what we kind of
want to get into today, is that the Golden State Valkyries,
I think, have made people so excited for expansion teams
in ways that people haven't been excited about expansion teams beforehand,
(11:47):
I think they've maybe been a little bit more apprehensive.
But because of success from them, and because of success
of expansion teams in other leagues like the NWSL and NHL,
I think people are more stoked to place bet because
it feels like less of a gamble.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
And that's kind of where I was coming from when
I said it feels like it was out of known work,
because there was this period in a time where we
were badgering, like we the fans were badgering the WNBA
to expand, and they were being so what felt like
cautious and slow compared to you know, like the NWSL,
who was expanding super super rapidly and fast. And so
that's kind of where my head was at. And then
(12:23):
all of a sudden we get all of these amazing
expansions and news. But of course it's a different time
even then, like three, four or five years.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Ago, and they are still being intentional. It's it's one
team at a time over the next five years.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, No, there's except for except yeah, but still what
we're going to talk about, We're going to talk about
the two interesting aspects of the WNBA landscape. To look
into ahead of this, just explosion and expansion, and the
first being team valuations because again it's not like the PDOHL.
They're all owned individually and overall fan appetite for the WNBA.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So let's start off with some of the team valuations.
Each of the three expansion teams payday wait for it,
zef a two one hundred and fifty million dollar expansion fee.
This is five times as much as the fee the
Golden State Valkyries paid in twenty twenty three. This expansion
fee for each of these teams is far and away
(13:26):
the largest sum ever paid for a new women's sports
franchise in the US. This mark previously belonged to the
Denver NWSL team, who is joining us in the next season,
which is very exciting. The Denver team was one hundred
and ten million dollars to join the league. Now this
is two hundred and fifty.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
And this makes sense right given that this expansion is
coming off the heels of skyrocketing team valuations. According to
Sportico's most recent numbers about those, the average WNBA franchise
is worth an estimated two hundred and sixty nine million,
up one hundred and eighty percent year over year, and
(14:08):
in the inaugural season for the Golden State Valkyries, they
topped the latest valuation list at five hundred million. And
again they didn't pay two to fifty million to expand
they paid like they paid fifty They paid fifty fifty
five zero.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
It was around fifty and fifty or fifty two or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
So they're at the top of the list when it
comes to franchise valuations. So we have the Valkyries sitting
at five hundred, New York Liberty at four to twenty million,
in Indiana Fever at three hundred and thirty five million.
So those are the top three evaluations or valuations. Sorry
I always want to say evaluations.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I know is that.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Business took one thing too when we talk about this
in our women's sports business newsletter, So if you're not aware,
we have a sports business newsletter that covers the business
side of women's sports. Specifically, you could subscribe to it
at the Just sports dot com and then you'll see
a business tab And we actually covered some of this
recently because of the New York Liberties four hundred and
twenty MILLI valuation, the Golden State Valkyries five hundred million valuation,
(15:03):
and I think, Steph, what's interesting here is there's two
things that I think we need to also look at
with these specific cities having such high valuations. One is
their winning. These teams are winning. When you look at
the New York Liberty in particular, teams that win do better.
The Indiana Fever has also increased wildly. The Las Vegas
Saces have increased wildly. The Las Vegas Saces and the
(15:26):
New York Liberty, I think you could arguably say over
the last four years, are consistently two of the top teams.
I think the other thing in this stuff when you're
looking at the top valuation of Golden State, New York, Indiana,
and Las Vegas is cultural influence. And that to me,
New York is always going to have a cultural influence
(15:46):
on basketball. I think you look at Indiana Fever and
you think about Caitlin Clark, but you look at the
Golden State Valkyries and how they are changing and shaping
I think the business side of basketball, but also welcoming
in different fans in the Bay Area that hasn't always
seen success in fandom and has seen a lot of
teams leave the Bay Area unfortunately in the last few years.
(16:06):
I really think that there's something here for each of
these new teams, these new expansion teams coming in Detroit,
Cleveland and Philly, to be thinking about, of course, obviously winning,
but to really be thinking about what is that cultural influence,
what is that thing they're doing, How are they becoming cool,
how are they becoming the top of the town so
that their valuations will skyrocket from here.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
And I'm looking at a chart here that organizes from
top to lowest, or however number wise you want to.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Call the highest to lowest.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
And I'm looking at the front half, and you know
what I think of investment. These teams have heavily invested
in their players and the facilities and everything else. And
I'm looking at the lower ones and I'm thinking, oh,
we've talked about the fact that they don't have a
practice facility, that they don't have X, y Z compared
to you know, the New York Liberty. So you're righting
to say, with putting a high evaluation, high valuation. Sorry
(17:02):
with that, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Drop that mic stuff. That was perfect. I love that analysis.
That was so good. And even the bottom teams, the
Atlanta Dream in the Connecticut Sun. They're valued at one
hundred and sixty five and one hundred and eighty million, respectively,
and that is a huge jump from where they were,
so they're still trending up into the right. The other thing, Steff,
that you mentioned so league valuations are one reason why
(17:24):
we're seeing more expansion. They're growing, and they're growing because
they're good teams in the top line. Revenue is there
and that's really what they're based off of his revenue
and potential. But the other thing is fan appetite, and.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
The league's growing. The fan appetite is growing. The Toronto
Tempo they're arriving in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Six A as.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Well as the Sorry Torontonian if you're new here as
the yet to be named WNBA Portland team with the
newest three squads of course, joining in twenty twenty eight
and Portland has already had ten thousand ticket deposits. Wow,
echoing the fan demand that the Valkri saw last season.
They don't even have a name yet.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Like this is fresh and viewership and attendance are at
an all time high, but they're consistently high, so it's
not like random peaks here and there. Teams across the
league are seeing booms and attendance in viewership, and these
metrics were already increasing year over year before the spike
that we saw last season due in part to the
(18:23):
twenty twenty four WNBA Draft class.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
And I think we have a lot to owe to
that WNBA Draft class. I don't really want to glaze
over that too. And it's something that Super talks about
a lot, is that the Kaitlin Clark effect, the Angel
Reefs effect, the Cameron Brink effect, the Aliyah Edwards effect,
all of that could happen because there was an ecosystem
that was ready for it to happen in at Too
(18:47):
Boom and those were the right athletes to help take
it to that next level. And we're so glad that
those athletes came around at that time to kick it
up that notch And I think what's really cool to
Steph when you're talking about sm viewership. There are slight
drops when Caitlyn Clark isn't playing for the Fever, but
(19:07):
some of those Fever games are still some of the
top watch games when she is not playing, and so
I think that also says a lot too, is that.
I think a lot of people were like, is it okay?
What if something big happens to Caitlin? Does that change
to the trajectory of the league. And I think, finally
the answer is no. We have built up enough of
a fandom that's a true fandom. And there's probably a
(19:29):
lot of people who came in with that twenty twenty
four draft class that have now properly converted into avid
fans that are like, no, we're here to stay, regardless
of actually who's on the court.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
For the twenty twenty five draft, they had a record
breaking two point four or five million people tuned into that,
so good, People's yes, that's a new class, baby, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Let's say class new page hold, new pay and a
whole new page hold, new page wreckers. And then the
last thing too, and I think, to me, this is
the biggest thing. There's a new media rights deal and
that's part of the NBA deal. The WNBA will earn
two point two billion with the b over eleven years,
and this is six times more than their previous deal
with ESPN. And so because of that, the league also
(20:09):
has money. And I think even more than the league
having money, stuff. I feel like they feel like they
finally have the resources and the partners and the tools
to be able to support eighteen teams. I think beforehand
they were like, are we at the right place that
we could actually be a support to all these other
teams and champion all of them and be there and
(20:30):
help them grow. Whereas now the WNBA as a league
itself is finally saying, yeah, we're ready to take on
this new challenge because of we have all of these
other tools in place.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, it's just kind of wild to think about the
fact that we went from two thousand and eight pretty
much to twenty twenty five with no expansion teams. So
the last one was Atlanta Dream twenty twenty five was
the Golden State valgrise. So what a time?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Eh, such a time. So we've talked about team valuations
and fan expansion being the main reason why we're seeing
three new teams come on and the main reason why
they are driving this two hundred and fifty million dollar
expansion fee. But let's take a couple minutes, because we
don't have that much shy, but let's take a couple
minutes and talk about why the WNBA chose Cleveland, Detroit,
(21:13):
and Philly.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
One of the or the largest thing that screams at
me is NBA infrastructure with all of these three teams,
and they have huge, massive, massive basketball histories each one
of these cities. The three most recent expansion teams were
selected based on this is according to the WNBA market
viability committed long term ownership groups, potential for significant fan corporate, media,
(21:38):
and city and state support, as well as arena and
practice facilities, and community commitment to advancing the sport. There
were other ones, but that was the ones that the
league really highlighted in terms of how they came to
these three teams.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I really like what you were talking about about Steph beforehand,
the top teams with the highest valuations having investment in
the leagues, and you think about the relationship that the
Warriors have with the Valkyries, that the Brooklyn Nets have
with the New York Liberty, you can see that trend here.
So in Cleveland, that team is going to be owned
and operated by Rock Entertainment Group, which is aka the
(22:12):
Cleveland Cavaliers owner and Dan Gilbert. Then when we move
to Detroit, STEPH, it's owned and operated by Tom and
Holly Gores, who also owns the Detroit Pistons. And then
when we go to Philly, it's owned and operated by
Harris Splitzer Sports and Entertainment HBSc, which is Josh Harrison Co.
Who owned a bunch of pro sports teams, training cards
(22:33):
and whatever. But they also own the seventy six Ers,
they own the Washington Commanders, and they also own the
NHL's New Jersey Devils. And so when you look at
those ownership groups, to me, I see greencheck, greencheck, greencheck.
They know what they're doing. And I think also to
Steph they can bring a new level of sophistication also
(22:55):
to the WNBA based off of their ownership. And I
don't know, you look at the Claire Wosaw and everything
that the Si family has done with the New York Liberty,
so much of that is because of their learnings with
the Brooklyn Nets and how they could actually run a
franchise in a really interesting way, but in a way
that's gonna help them win championships in a way that's
(23:15):
going to drive valuation.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Those are all great points. So that's who got the bid,
and why let's think about hooting at a bid, Because
of course we were presented with an absolutely massive list
a couple of years ago before the tempo were even
announced of who who was on who had considerations.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, so bids were from Kansas City, Austin, Nashville, Houston, Miami, Denver,
and Charlotte. And I think, I think, honestly, Seph, when
you think of those cities, Miami is the most interesting
to me. And Miami, I think is also interesting because
of unrivaled building, its space there, especially in the off season.
(23:56):
It's known as a hub for basketball. It's known as
this growing entertainment place for sports. It's known as this
booming district for business as well as art. But I
just don't know if they're they're quite yet. I think
that they're still. I think the WNBA is really smart
and being like we are working with owners of major league.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Teams, you know what. Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner of the
WNBA said, she reportedly has her eyes on Houston for
a future expansion because Houston is also one of those
teams that lost it or one of those cities that
lost their team. So they had the Houston comments before,
and apparently to the WNBA they're looking promising perhaps, but
again no timeline for any more expansion, and they did.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I mean, Detroit had the Detroit Shock before too, you know,
so I think that that's really cool as well. And
I'm so excited as a result to see what Detroit
does with the naming, with the imagery, with all of
that sort of stuff. Do they call back to it?
Do they not call back to it? You know what
I mean, all of these things we have to look
forward to.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, so real quick, So Charlotte or sorry not Charlotte,
My bad? That was? That was But the Cleveland Cleveland
also had a team Cleveland Rockers, And so both Cleveland
and Detroit are saying using the same name or the
previous name is not out of the question, but it's
not a for sure thing. So they might be the
Cleveland Rockers again, and it might be the Detroit Shock again.
(25:18):
So I'm really really fascinated to see how that unfolds
and which way alumna lean if they wanted to come
back or not, and how the people in those cities
want the name to go.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Really interesting. Oh my gosh, it's just so exciting. Women's
basketball is growing. We're so excited to be a part
of this time. We us thinking of this podcast when
we did it way back in twenty twenty us thinking
about having five different teams coming into the WNBA before
twenty thirty, I don't think would have been in our
(25:50):
Bengo card and we are just so lucky to be here.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
So lucky. Another shout out to Amazon Business for sponsoring
this episode. If there's one thing Amazon specializes in, it's convenience,
and that's true of both their personal and business programs.
When you sign your company up for Amazon Business, you
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small business and choose Amazon Business for all your work
(26:17):
related purchases. Now it's time for our personal training SASH.
This is where we'll answer your heart hitting questions about anything,
and we mean anything in the sports world.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
If you'd like to be featured on a future episode,
please call and leave us a voicemail at one four
three seven five six four five five seven nine. We
are also accepting mail big requests through email pod atthjisports
dot com, or you can DM Steph and I on
a group chat at Sephanie Rots and at Ellenethangist on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
And today we are taking a question from Leah from Toronto,
so thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Hit it Hi, Stephan Ellen. My name is Leah and
I'm calling from Toronto Happy Pride month. I just had
a question about what your thoughts are on games that
have different rules or structures based on gender. I know
in one of your previous episodes you were talking about
(27:25):
Rolling Garrison the French Open, but I was wondering if
there's any other sports that could kind of lead to
a bigger conversation about this. But yeah, I'd love to
hear what your thoughts are about it.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Bye, Leah, thank you so much for calling in. We
really really appreciate it. My sister's name is also Leah,
and Leah also lives in Toronto. And I know that
you're not my sister, but I think maybe you and
my sister should be friends, and I think that that's
so fun. Also Happy Pride as well. We know that
(27:58):
we're officially out of June, but we're always celebrating Pride
at the gist a bit and asked the just as
a company. I think that's very fair to say. Loved
your question.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, let's give some backgrounds. So Leah is referencing episode
four sixty five, which we'll put in the show notes
and the TLDR about that one was the friends shopmen
did not schedule a single women's singles match in primetime
this year. And one of the reasons why is they
just said, like, oh, you know, like the ticket value
is not the same because men play best of five
(28:30):
sets at Grand Slams versus the women play what is it,
best of three yllenh So that was one of the
reasons why they were saying they wanted to give fans
like value or something some bull hockey like that.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
It's bull hockey, especially because the five set for the
men versus the three set for the women is also
bull hockey, And a lot of it was based on
can women play five sets? Women and men in the
ATP and WNBA Regular, WVa and w regular tournaments, they
both play three sets. The men are like, why the
(29:05):
hell are we playing five in these Grand Slams or
these majors. They also only want to play three, or
the women are like, we can play five two. Actually
women have better endurance than men, so why aren't we
doing that exact thing? So I think there's a double
edged sword here where it's already sexist that women don't
play the same amount of sets as men, and then
(29:27):
they're leveraging that for not putting them in at primetime.
And then I also think what's tough Steph, is that
the French Open was bad, and it's been bad for
seven years. I think it was when you looked back,
even nine years, when you looked back, there was only
a couple matches each tournament that were actually played in primetime.
(29:47):
But it's also been disappointing, at least to me, that
there's been some Wimbledon matches that I think should have
been in primetime that weren't in primetime. I think when
you look at Coco Gov's match, to me, Coco Goff
should be at primetime every single time that she plays.
I think that you look at Sabalanca, she should be
on primetime every time that she plays. And yes, I'm
(30:09):
saying that they should be on primetime over some of
the biggest men's names, because their names are bigger than
some of the biggest men's names right now and people
want to tune in. And I think that also Wimblin's
probably missing out on some money by not putting them
at the primetime so that people can watch, but also
so that people in England can enjoy properly too.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Okay, so let's really drill down on Lea's question. So
she asked us if there were any other sports that
could kind of lead a bigger conversation about having different
rules or different structures based on gender. I think of
two sports, and I'm gonna be biased with this one.
I'm so sorry. I think of gymnastics and I think
of hockey because I think, like you said, with the
(30:52):
five sets versus three sets for men and women in tennis,
I think it's we always should in default to the
men's being the best, like the rules for like having
to have the women mirror or copy exactly what the
men are doing, because I don't always agree with the
men's rules being the best rules for that sport. One
thing that is constantly talked about in hockey is checking
(31:14):
and hitting and fighting, and Ellen and I disagree on this,
but like right now, women aren't. They don't have the
same rules or the same allowances for fighting and for
hitting that men and doing hockey. But I don't think
that that should be exist in the sport, and in
men's hockey either, and people often say put like women's
gymnasts against men's gymnastsing women don't have the upper body strength,
(31:35):
what have you. But I would like to see the
men do more of what than women do because I
find that so visually entertaining in this whole, like grunt
show my strength aspect of it is less appealing to
me personally.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
So I think two step in gymnastics, it's less about
showing strengths. In gymnastics, they do different exercises. So like
the men don't do the beam, the women don't do
the pommel horse. The men do the rings, they don't
do the uneven bars, and they haven't adjusted them. They've
(32:07):
adjusted those what would you call this, those tricks, those skills,
whatever they're called. The gymnastics purely based off of physics
and purely based off of men's and women's bodies are different.
You actually can't compare the best men's gymnast of all
time to the best women's gymnasts of all time because
you know what, the men can't do what the women
(32:28):
can do, and some women aren't able to do what
the men can do. There was this really good TikTok
that actually broke all of this down that I literally
watched two days ago, and that's why I feel like
I'm an expert on this. I will say though, the
person the man who put this together was like Simone
Biles is that female gymnast who can actually do so
many of the men's events, which is just so cool
(32:49):
and just like continues to show that she's the goat.
But in gymnastics, they just respect each other's craft. There
isn't this comparison because they truly are just like we
are doing different tricks and different skills based off of
the way that our bodies are made.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
But like there's less there's like a little bit more
dancy dance in some women's gymnastics that I think men's
gymnastics could get. Like on the floor.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, I think artistry is really cool. Like for me
as a figure skater, I'm like, I love being able
to have a creative aspect and outlet and men probably
could potentially do that too if they wanted to, But
that would be the other thing too, set that I
actually really enjoy about figure skating. And that's what I
was going to say in this comparison to I find
(33:32):
women's figure skating and men's figure skating when you're looking
at singles really interesting because it is similar to tennis,
and that there is pair when they're jumping, and there's
dance pairs as well and their teammates. In the same way,
there's mixed doubles too, And then in men's singles and
women's singles, the men do more quads. The women generally
(33:53):
don't have any quads in their program. The women are
squads four times four times ors just three times. The
women tend to be, in my opinion, way better skaters
and like stronger and more autistic, and the men really
focus in on those jumps and they don't. At the
end of the day, you still love the program for
(34:15):
the program and watching it for what you're watching it.
And to me, when I watch a men's tennis match
and a women's tennis match, I'm like, I'm obsessed with both.
They're both so good. I love watching all of them.
I just want to watch the best match that's on
at that time. And I think that figure skating and
gymnastics in particular do a really good job at actually
(34:37):
also having those figure skaters be friends, like with each
other and stand up for each other. And we need
an Andy Murray of this generation to be speaking out
about this, like we need Autcraz to be speaking out,
We need Skinner to be speaking out, like we need
these guys to be saying I also want to watch
all of these women at primetime. What the hell are
we doing? You know, like we need someone to be
(34:59):
saying that.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah. I think the important thing to sum up would be,
are the rules or the structures different based on preconceived
notions of what women and men should be doing, on
what femininity should be and should look like, or is
it based on something like the physics and the fact
of at all, like you said for the uneven bars
(35:22):
and the what have you in gymnastics, because I do
think that it is limiting men in some aspects when
it comes to artistry, whether it's in gymnasts or synchronized swimming,
which I don't even think they do in groups, Like
there are so many things that I think punish men
in the sense of not to be like a male apologist,
but like they really make them focus on the strength
(35:43):
of it all and don't allow them their full aspect
of humanity when it comes to those types of things.
And that's the same thing I feel like in hockey,
the fighting is bad because it leads to injury, it
leads to your players being out. Like, there's so many
things where I'm like, Okay, what is this rule rooted in?
Is it trying to make men and fight and whatever
and women soft and junior? And I think, like, that's
(36:03):
what you have to be asking yourself when you're thinking
about these rules.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Leah, I don't think you expected us to get into
a master's program when you ask this question, but we
really appreciate how thoughtful and smart it is. And again,
for anyone else who wants to be a part of
a future personal training sash dm us email us call
us at the link of the show notes, we really
really have fun and appreciate these.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
And with that, that marks the end of today's episode.
We truly could have talked forever about both of these topics,
so we did our best to make it short. So
thank you so much for tuning in and sticking to
the end.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
This episode was edited by Savannah Held and produced by
Lisa Mantilo and Aleixandra Puccio. Again, I'm Ail and Hisslap
Speaker 2 (36:42):
And I'm Steph Rott and call us at the number
in the show notes or dms or email us and
be on the next podcast so we'll chat with you again.
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