December 11, 2025 • 38 mins
Is it hot in here?
Or is it just “Heated Rivalry,” the steamy gay romance hockey drama sweeping North America? On Tuesday, the NHL showed a trailer of the popular show at the Montreal Canadiens Pride Night, a viral moment that has everyone talking. On today’s episode of The GIST of It, co-hosts Ellen Hyslop and Steph Rotz contextualize the moment in the grand scheme of hockey culture, which is notoriously homophobic, and discuss if this is a true ground-breaking moment for the league.
Show notes:
Episode #484
Hockey romance edition of The Group Chat
More on The GIST:
☎️ Leave us a voicemail! Call us at 1-437-564-5579 or hold down on this link
🎧 Subscribe: thegistsports.com/subscribepod
✉️ Email: pod@thegistsports.com
📷 Instagram: @thegistca @thegistusa
🐦 X: @thegistpod
Or is it just “Heated Rivalry,” the steamy gay romance hockey drama sweeping North America? On Tuesday, the NHL showed a trailer of the popular show at the Montreal Canadiens Pride Night, a viral moment that has everyone talking. On today’s episode of The GIST of It, co-hosts Ellen Hyslop and Steph Rotz contextualize the moment in the grand scheme of hockey culture, which is notoriously homophobic, and discuss if this is a true ground-breaking moment for the league.
Show notes:
Episode #484
Hockey romance edition of The Group Chat
More on The GIST:
☎️ Leave us a voicemail! Call us at 1-437-564-5579 or hold down on this link
🎧 Subscribe: thegistsports.com/subscribepod
✉️ Email: pod@thegistsports.com
📷 Instagram: @thegistca @thegistusa
🐦 X: @thegistpod
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
What's up, besties. Welcome or welcome back to another episode
of the Gist of It. Today's Thursday, December eleventh. We're
your co hosts. I'm Ellen Hisslap and I'm Steph Rots
And today we're making hockey gay again, baby, and I
will I do want to say, we're making hockey gay again.
Hockey's always been gay, correct, Hockey is gay?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
And we're so excited. Sports arekay, all sports are gay
and so works like ay, we just need to set
the tone for that. But also be the reason why
everyone's talking about hockey being gay is thanks to this
little TV show called Heated Rivalry that is truly taken
(00:48):
everyone over by storm. We're gonna talk about it, but
seven I do have to caveat we have not had
a chance to watch it yet.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, it's it's on the today, So we are talking
about it today from a cultural standpoint. We cannot and
will not be commenting on the actual content in terms
of like whether.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Or not we like the show. We don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
We don't know, but we know what it's about exactly.
We know what it's about. Everyone's been talking to us
about it and saying, how have you to not watched it,
and I think what we more so want to talk
about today is the cultural impact of Heated Rivalry. So
Heated Rivalry, for those of you who don't know, tells
(01:32):
the story of two pro hockey players, Shane and Elia,
who are in a secret, years long, very passionate relationship
that is masked by their intense and very legit on
ice rivalry. The show just premiered at the end of
November on Crave in Canada and HBO Max in the US,
and as we mentioned, everyone's talking about it. I think
(01:54):
one of the coolest things is that this is a
show that was produced in Canada, but it's getting rave
reviews everywhere and around the world. And I've just been
loving the tweets that are like, oh my god, thank
you Canada so much for the show and people being like, wait,
did the Canadian tax dollars help to fund the show?
Because it's truly amazing. And with that, Steph and I
(02:15):
have to say, you're welcome. Everyone.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Culture needs to be funded fun the arts Fund, are
you baby? Uh yeah, we have to talk about it
today even though we haven't seen it yet, because on
Tuesday night, the NHL showed a trailer of the show
at Montreal's Bell Center during a Montreal Canadians Pride night,
so an NHL teams Pride night, And as a longtime
(02:38):
hockey fan and someone who has truly grappled with my
love of hockey and men's involvement in the sport, I
can't overstay how big of a deal that this is.
There is so much homophobia in men's hockey that to
play this trailer at an NHL game is huge and
(02:59):
worth than a episode worth talking about.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
To have the show alone is huge, and then to
actually see it move into the pro space, and to
see it happening in a league where some teams are
celebrating pride, some teams aren't, some players are celebrating times,
some teams aren't. You know, it just feels momentous and
a really big deal, and so that's why we had
(03:21):
to talk about it. So today we're diving into hockey culture,
particularly how stigma and toxic masculinity have created this community
that feels very exclusive, and why showing this trailer feels
like a step in the right direction. And also I'm
going to add a little extra something to this stuff too.
How book talk has also really changed Talky, I think
(03:44):
for the better over the years, and so all of
that I think combined makes for honestly the perfect podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
And you can't discount fan fix and not like involvement
in the progression of book talk.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So we have a lot to them too. As you
can see, this is going to be a very interesting
podcast of ours. But first I have to call an
audible and that is because news was dropped on Wednesday
evening about the MET Gala. I think most of our
listeners would be aware. But the MET Gala is held
every year on the first Monday in May in New
York City and it is probably like the event of
(04:19):
the year stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Would you say that, I would say it's when US
normies like to look at really fancy outfits and.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
More costume outfits too, Like generally there's a theme every year.
It's also not an awards thing. It's to raise money
for the MET. It's generally considered fashion's biggest night out
and generally they have a lot of famous people co chairing, chairing,
part of the committee what have you. Last year it
(04:48):
made headway in sports because I think Lebron James and
Lewis Hamilton were involved which was really cool. But this
year's co chairs are Beyonce, Nicole Kidman and Venus Williams.
And Serena Williams has been a part of the met
Gala committee and group before, but Venus Williams hasn't, and
(05:10):
Venus being one of the co chair stuff just feels
so poignant to Venus actually getting the attention that she
deserves and the nod that she deserves of how she
actually was first in impacting women's tennis, especially for women
as well as in particular Black women, and how dominant
(05:32):
she was before Serena kind of became the face.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Such a good point that you've made, Ellen, because also,
as many might forget, Venus Williams has won seven Grand
Slams in singles.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Like she is, she has a very storied career.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
She herself like needs the recognition like a part and
separate from her sister.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, and she was a huge part too, and I
think growing the fan base but also even equal pay
when she was coming on. Like, there's so much that
obviously Billy Jean King has done and did and continues
to do in women's tennis and women's sports more broadly.
But Venus Williams is squarely a part of that conversation
and is squarely a part of changing the culture, changing
(06:15):
the tone in tennis. So I'm so excited to see
her be part of this and be co chairing. But
then there is another person stuff who is also involved
in this from a sports perspective.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yes, so on the host committee is Asia Wilson. What
a year for Asia Wilson. There's obviously many other people
mentioned on the host committee, but we are narrowing in
on Asia because.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
We need to front of the gym.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
We're sports podcasts.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Where are sports podcasts?
Speaker 3 (06:42):
But also, wasn't this the year that she won Times
Athlete of the Year.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yes, it's her, your baby. Wasn't this the year that
she won WNBA MVP? Wasn't this the year that she
won Finals MVP? Wasn't this the year that she won
the WNBA Championship? And on hot Ones and she was
on hot Ones and and she was on the gist
of it, like she's just been having the best year
of her life. And so I just think thinking about
(07:10):
this powerhouse group of people coming together is amazing. But
I also think, you know when your heroes almost get together,
and thinking that Asia Wilson's a little bit younger than us.
Venus Williams is quite a bit older than us, And
to think about that kind of passing of the paton,
but in a space and a place like the met
Gala is occurring, that's kind of cool to think about.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Wow, Yeah, this is sick. I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
It's gonna be great. It's gonna be great. We're so
excited for this conversation. There's so many layers to this,
We're going to dive into every single one, but first
we want to lay the groundwork before contextualizing how showing
(08:01):
the Heated Rivalry trailer fits into the NHL's long history
of homophobia and anti lgbt QUI A plus behavior. We
also want to note here too, that Heated Rivalry is
based off of a book which is very much involved
in everything on the book talk side of things, which
we will get into at the end of the podcast,
(08:21):
because it's very just interesting to see the influence of
women and fans and how that also impacted the show
getting created too.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
I'm so excited to learn from you in that segment.
So let's dive into hockey culture because we do need
to kind of paint the scene in terms of why
we are celebrating showing a trailer at.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
A game in an arena that is called the Bell
Center and Bell owns Crave, so like there's commercial realness
in all of this too, right, Like, Yeah, it's so
exciting it happened at the Bell Center owns Crave everyone,
so like that's so great. But if it's going to
show up in one place, it's going to be.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
The Bell Center. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
For Americans, some contacts, like two media companies own the
whole country in Canada. Yeah, Bell is one of them,
So there's one.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
It's very similar, right, Like, there's so many arenas in Philly,
like the Lincoln Financial Field, Like same idea.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah, and so we'll even explore that in this podcast,
the financial impacts of all of this, so stick around.
But hockey culture itself, we've talked about it at length
on this podcast so many times. We simply could not
link to all of the times that we have talked
about hockey culture. But we're going to put our most
recent episode for eighty four in the show notes. If
you do want to kind of dig your teeth into this,
(09:42):
if you are coming to us because of heated rivalry
and now you want to learn more, go to our
show notes and there'll be a longer discussion there that
you can get into. But basically, we are separating hockey
the sport from the culture that it's created. So you
can love hockey and then it doesn't mean that you
are assimulated or into the culture itself. So just making
(10:03):
that very very clear that distinction. But hockey culture is
a way largely for the Canadian nation state to really
uphold the hegemonic order the white rich cisgender straight man.
This is where all of that is maintained very very
heavily and policed very heavily. It is a sport that
(10:25):
encourages sameness, that is very hard to play if you
do not have money, and will use violence to kind
of continue on this tradition in this culture through.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Hazing, bullying.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
You really the specifically the young men that not have
to because I love hockey, that play this sport really
do have to conform in order to be accepted. And
I think that is really what's at the culture here
when we are also talking about homophobia.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, and I think that this manifests itself in different
ways to Stephan from a broader perspective as well. The
hockey culture starts at the top and it trickles down,
but it also starts at the bottom and trickles up,
especially in Canada, and a lot of these fellas have
to make decisions when they're twelve thirteen years old of
(11:18):
do they think that they're going to make it to
the show? Aka, do they think they're going to make
it to the NHL. And in comparison to a lot
of other sports, where you go and play in the
NCUBLEA for a couple of years and then you go
pro with the NHL, the best players are literally scouted
when they're like fourteen years old, go to their junior
(11:39):
teams when they're sixteen to eighteen years old, and then
they're in the league. And so they also don't have
this formative growing up perspective that a lot of other
sports like the NFL, NBA, WNBA have because there's this
NCUBA pipeline that's built in which in and of itself
does not also help hockey culture in comparison to other
(12:01):
sports cultures.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
No, they're not going to university.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Rick west had, who's done a lot for the most part,
some of them, I'm making really general statements because I'm
also get really upset about all this. And we talked
a lot in the past about the slush funds that
Hockey Canada had to cover up sexual assault scandals or
sexual assault allegations, I should say, as well as the
(12:25):
most recent Hockey Canada trial that happened against the five
either current or former NHL players. And Rick west Head
has been doing a lot of great reporting here in
Canada for TSN and he just came up with a
book that's on my reading list. I haven't read it yet,
but he called it We Breed Lions and spoke to
a lot of junior hockey players in that book, and
(12:46):
a lot can be learned at that junior level in
terms of what the culture really is like, because, like
Ellen said, these children are being separated from their families
and playing hockey with men much older than them. Depending
on their skill arrange, it can be at quite a
young age.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, and that's where players are Hayes. They adopt the
same hair, they speak, the same way you talk to someone.
You'll notice if they have a literal hockey accent or not.
They can get made fun of for dressing differently and
literally Austin Matthews, the now captain of the Toronto maple Leiefs,
was made fun of for going on the cover of GQ.
(13:23):
If that was to happen in the NBA, everyone would
be celebrating that athlete going on the cover of GQ.
Gay players stay closeted or self select out of the
sport entirely, and so that's kind of the some of
the tangible ways. But the list goes on and on
and on, and I think to reiterate what you said,
stuff like just because you play hockey, we're not saying
(13:43):
that that means you inflict violence on others. But I
think the main thing we wanted to just contextualize for
this conversation is just that hockey culture is not an
inclusive and welcoming culture. And so when we're talking about
a book like Heated Rivalry that's turning into a show
that is having a trailer getting played at an NHL game,
(14:05):
that's a big deal because of the sameness in this
culture that's been cultivated for decades.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Now to zoom in more specifically on the history of
anti lgbtqia plus action in the NHL in the leagues
one hundred and seven year existence. Not a single active
or former player has ever come out as gay, and
that is statistically impossible. They're certainly from a data management perspective,
(14:34):
that is impossible in the sense that they certainly exist.
The NHL is the only major men's league so out
of the NFL, NHL, MLB, and NBA without a single
out gay player, either active or retired in its one
hundred and seven year history.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
The math is a math No, the Matho is a
math Canadian. Luke Procop, who is an outgay man, is
pro hockey player that currently plays for the Milwaukee Admirals
in the AHL, which is essentially a feeder league into
the NHL, and so he is really the only player
right now that's out and in the system from a
(15:13):
pro perspective in North America.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
In twenty seventeen, the NHL launched Hockey Is for Everyone,
which was an initiative meant to combat discrimination in the sport.
Hasn't done a whole lot. As outlined many times before,
hockey is very exclusive for a lot of different reasons,
and this initiative was very needed and created specifically to
brawn in hockey's appeal to bring in more marginalized groups
(15:39):
like the LGBTQI plus community into the NHL and folks
of lower economic status black players like you name it.
This is a very exclusive, exclusionary sport and so the
hockey is for everyone. Initiative was trying to do something
about that, and.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
I think that it came from a good place. I
I do think that the intention was there and it
was right. But I think what was really hard from
a fan perspective is that it felt like whiplash. Where
in twenty seventeen, I think the NHL was like, Okay,
we are recognizing that we need to change, we need
to try to do better, we need to influence what
youth hockey culture is looking like to and across North America.
(16:19):
The hockey culture starts in Canada, but it definitely percolates
across North America and honestly across the world in terms
of what it's like on the men's side. And what
was really tough stuff is that you think you're making
headway since twenty seventeen, and then in twenty twenty three,
I think that's where we all had the whiplash because
the NHL banned the use of pride tape shortly after
(16:42):
announcing that wearing special warm up jerseys during theme nights
like Pride Nights was no longer allowed. And this was
interesting because this was happening. This type of conversation was
happening a lot in a lot of different leagues, and
the NHL took a very interesting stance. My favorite part
(17:03):
of this is that it was met with backlash by
a lot of the fans but also from players. And
the best player in the league, in my opinion, is
Edmonton oiler Connor McDavid, and he spoke up and talked
about it, and we hadn't had that in the NHL
in a really long time. And to have the face
of hockey globally say that is baloney, and I'm still
(17:25):
going to wear the jersey, use the Pride tape, I'm
still outwardly going to support this community in whatever way
I can. That felt really great and I loved that
from a fan perspective because I felt like, also two stuff.
When we think about this sameness and all of them
trying to like almost be on the same page or
have the same opinion. Connor McDavid was like, f that
(17:46):
I don't have that same opinion.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
I'm going to tell people because from home, I feel
like I've just been screaming into the ethers say something
to these players. And Arizona Coyotes defenseman Travis Dermot defied
the band and used pride tape during a game anyways,
and then the band was repealed shortly after. Like it
does just take a couple of players to make a stand,
(18:09):
but it is such a rare thing in hockey.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
It's really hard. And I think, to your poisef this
like the sameness and the respect and like respecting the
rules and attacting the league, and like the hierarchy is
so hockey in comparison to the NBA or the NFL.
That's like we're the players, we're the products. We're going
to do what we want to do, you know what
I mean. Like it is it is a little bit
different in that side with hockey. So that's kind of
(18:35):
some of the history and also recent history of how
the NHL has and has not supported the LGBTQAA plus community.
But that sets the scene for why it was such
a big deal that this heated rivalry trailer happened and
was showcased at an NHL game. Again with the asterisks
(18:57):
of the commercialization of the Bell side and Bell owning
Crave and this being a standout show for Crave. Heated
rivalry tells the story, as we mentioned, of Shane and Elia,
who are in this very secretive, years long, passionate relationship
that's masked by their on ice rivalry. Shane is Canadian,
(19:18):
Ilia is Russian. They're competitors internationally as well in their
fictional pro hockey league, which is Major League Hockey. Both
of them are captains of their teams, and so it
just you can almost picture it happening in real life too,
especially because there's so many Canadian and Russian competitors and
so many Canadian Russian teammates in the NHL, but also
(19:40):
playing internationally.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
I mean, we've seen it on the women's side, not
with Russia, many Canada US.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
This is not a new concept.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
No, No, you're women's sports like we're a short period.
I'm like, no, there's so many rivalries. You've got people
playing gold medal games against each other, which is so
much fun. We will say again, Steph and I haven't
watched this, but what a lot of people have said,
do not watch this with your parents. It is a
(20:09):
steamy show for sure. It's graphic and it's fun and
it's based off of and this is I think maybe
Steph where we can talk about book talk a little bit,
but it is based off of a book that really
did super well on book talk. And for those of
you who aren't familiar on book talk, how would you
(20:29):
say it's stuff. It's like basically this subgenre community of
TikTok that really focuses on reviewing and reading books and
promoting books. And in particular, a subgenre that has come
out is sports smut for lack of a better term,
where there's these fictional romance novels and hockey smut is
(20:53):
the most popular sport in terms of these novels. And
what's really cool is that there's we talked about it
in one of our group newsletters back in June, but
there's this like illustrated cover vibe that you get with
all of these hockey book romance novels, and there's straight relationships,
there's queer relationships, and it really has felt like a place,
(21:15):
at least book talk for me stuff and being on
book talk has felt like a space where more people
feel like they can enter into fandom in a different way.
And it feels like a space where a lot of
women and queer folks are like, wait, I could be
welcome into this sports community in a way that's fun
and then like find my fandom elsewhere. But hockey smut
(21:38):
has been like really on the increase.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I did some googling when Ellen brought this up to
me because I did.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Not know the depths, and oh my god, the amount.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Of titles that are specific to hockey is blowing my mind.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yes I'm obsessed.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yes, there's so many, and so maybe we should link this.
I'll link this newsletter in our show notes well, because
you'll see the kind of illustrations that are really common
in this kind of romanticy sports vibe. And where Heated
Rivalry really came from was this book talk. And what
(22:15):
makes me excited about that stuff is that this Heated
Rivalry show is also being powered by female fans and
queer fans of this book in particular, but it's impacting
hockey culture more broadly, which means that hopefully more women
and queer fans are feeling more welcome into hockey because
of this.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Just circling back to to the trailer real quick, another
reason why it is worth talking about is because like,
you know what you're watching when you see this trailer,
like it is.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
A gay hockey show.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
And I think that that is what is really exciting
about this is it's not like they're trying to hide
what this show is to pull people in, like you
know what you're getting into, and it's not subtle. And
I think that that is also what is worse celebrating
is that everyone in that arena, whether or not they
had heard about heated rivalry or not, if they watched
the trailer, they were on the same page, you know
(23:09):
what I mean. Like, I think that is also something
we need to say.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Yeah. So on Tuesday night, the Montreal Canadians hosted the
Tampa Bay Lightning at the Bell Center for their Pride Night.
During the game, the trailer played and the fact that
it happened is blowing up on social media and to
your point, stuff like it was so openly gay, like
men are kissing in the trailer. It is not subtle.
It's not this like link link nudge, nudge. I might
be gay. They're like, no, we're gay, and this is
(23:34):
fully what this is happening, or sorry, this is fully
what's happening in this show. This is a step in
the right direction, especially when the league is I think
and hope looking to become more inclusive. I also think
two stuff. As much as this happened in Montreal, Montreal
has its own interesting history when it comes to and
(23:55):
current I'd say with queer culture and well, we don't
really have time space to get into that, but Montreal
is an interesting space for that. But also when we
zoom out and we look at the political climate that
we're in right now, especially on the American side, and
with the NHL being an American and Canadian league, with
so many rights being attacked right now, it just feels
(24:18):
so poignant that this was being played at a league game.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Like this, and it is really important that we talk
about it. And regardless of whether or not you could
take the pessimistic angle and say it's a popular show,
would they have played this if it wasn't doing numbers
and it wasn't being picked up and talked about at
the rate that it's being picked up and talked about.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
I don't know, but they played it, and that's a win.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I do wonder if other arenas will play it. That's
my big question, right because for me, from a commercial perspective.
As I mentioned just the tie between Bell and the show,
I'm like, of course they're going to play the trailer.
That's their own streaming service, you know what I mean,
every single one of those arenas. Part of the reason
why it's called Crypto dot com is because Crypto is
(25:07):
able to leverage the JumboTron and the breaks and everything
like that to influence anyone who is watching a game.
What I'm interested in, Steph is as we're seeing hopefully
more and more Pride Nights being hosted across the NHL,
do those teams use heated rivalry? Do those teams give
(25:28):
out some books? Do those teams talk about heated rivalry
in one way or another, or do they bring in
another aspect or another book? Like I just I wonder
how much of this is the Bell Crave side of
things versus a true inspiration potentially to other teams when
they're doing their Pride Nights.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, they should capitalize on this pop culture moment. You
would think it would make a lot of sense, But
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
That's a good question.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Like I still think at the end of the day,
and this is my pessimistic take at the end of
the day, these teams are still like, Okay, what's in
it for me? And so it's so clear to someone there,
at least for me, I'm like, you know, what's in
it for them? Increased subscribers, So yes.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Because I need to get Craved now.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, it's like it's like I'm already on Crave and
I'm like, yeah, I've got that bundle, baby, like I'm
ready to go, and it's increased. Like once you're on it,
then you're finding your other shows. You're doing all of
that sort of stuff. So then is it a team
thing stuff or are we going to be like, okay, hbo, HBO, Max.
You guys are seeing how well this show is doing.
(26:34):
Should you pay for a trailer space in a jumbo
tron at an NHL arena? You know? So I think
there's a lot more. This is a huge deal and
that's why we're talking about it and that's what we're doing.
But I think my commercial lens and like Spidery senses,
you also have to be like, okay, will this continue
outside of this one night in Montreal for a very
(27:00):
clear reason.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
When my spidy senses, those are your spidy senses. I'm worrying,
and I really hope that there's no backlash from the
hockey community about this. I haven't seen anything yet, but
especially when I'm thinking small town where I grew up,
I do, where we grew up, sorry, where we.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Grew up bad.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
I hope the NHL doubles down on this and does
continue to play it in different arenas, in different spaces
and capacities, and does somehow get behind this popular thing,
this popular show that's out because if they don't, they
risk saying exactly what they've been saying all of these years,
stay closeted.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, they have a huge opportunity to welcome a brand
new fan base that I think would be not ever
forgetting or forgiving what has happened in the past, but
open to the next phase of the relationship. If this
was something meaningful that the league or the teams, what
have you, would be like fully getting behind. So with that,
(28:00):
we'll take a quick break. But we do have a
very interesting personal training sess to get to after this
that is also very hockey culture that I'm really excited
to talk about. So stick with us.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
As promised, we're hitting you with a personal training sesch
today This is the segment of the podcast where we
would absolutely love to field any of the questions that
you have about the sports world and or amplify a
hot take that you have.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
This one comes from one of our faves, Holly, who
we have chatted with on the podcast before. Tolly DMD
Steph and I. Steph is at Sephanie Rots on Instagram,
I am at ellen ethan gist on Instagram, and Tali said, hello,
I don't know if y'all have seen the Kuchuck Brothers
new podcast where they said nothing worse when girls call
(28:58):
a player by their nickname. Would love to hear your
thoughts on it. Classic hockey misogyny and during the era
of heated rivalry as well. So sad Tolly, you are
on your game, let's go like calling that out from
a misogyny side of things. And then also heated rivalry.
Tolly had no idea that we were gonna be talking
(29:19):
about heated rivalry today. So this is the perfect personal
training Sash and I am so excited to get into this.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Let's give some context.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
The podcast that is being referred to here is of Florida.
Is that Florida is Matthew in Brady Kuchuk's podcast. So
Matthew plays for the Florida Panthers in the NHL, Brady
the Ottawa Senators, and the pod past is called Wingmen
with Matthew and Brady Kuchuck.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
And these fellows are really good at hockey. These brothers
are good. Matthew has won a couple of Stanley Cups.
Now Brady is the captain of the Ottawa se Both
of them will be on Team USA. They were both
on Team USA for the Four Nations, although Matthew is
injury well, they have some injuries, so we'll see if
they end up being on that Olympic team. But I'm
(30:12):
pretty sure they'll end up playing. But they are a
big deal, I would say in hockey. Their dad also
played for the Philadelphia Flyers. He was a pest. I
really didn't enjoy him. And what I'll say too is
they're like I feel like they're trying to be the
Jason and Travis Kelce comparable or the Maher the Loneomar
(30:34):
like podcast comparable with all of her sisters too, Like
I think they've caught onto. Okay, families are so jokes
on podcasts. Can we figure out these boys what I
will say, they are the classic hockey brothers that we
were just talking about, Like they are the of like
white hockey boy culture brought up in the system vibes.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah, I'm not going to achieve that with this quote.
Here's the quote, nothing worse than when girls call a
player by their nickname?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
End quote.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
And that was said in the context of a larger
conversation that they were having of who gets to call
someone by their nickname? And previously the brothers were saying
that it's weird hearing anyone who isn't in the NHL
call a player by their nickname, and in their little
hook of this podcast, they're trying to like bring people
(31:29):
into hockey.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, and takes sense when it's really hard because I
think Matthew and this, he's like, it's the worst when
girls do it. He could have said just period when
fans do it, but he didn't, and he is receiving
feedback and backlash and rightfully so about this misogynistic undertone
of it all. And I think that's where to me, Seph,
(31:54):
I get really frustrated because I'm like, what did you
think was going to happen? Putting these two boys on
a podcast where they're talking about things. What do you
think is, what do you think they're going to showcase
in hockey culture? How do you think that they're going
to be informed educated about these types of things when
(32:14):
they were brought up in the culture that we were
just kind of explaining, And how do you think you're
going to bring on people like us into the conversation
with those types of people hosting?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Yeah, like, what did they think they were going to say?
I just like, what did they think they were going
to say?
Speaker 2 (32:37):
They probably thought this was going to be well received,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (32:40):
People be like, oh, you know what, Actually you're talking
about such a small percentage of people. And you know what,
I I don't want a parasocial relationship with you, You're right,
Kuchuck Brothers, Like, I don't actually want to feel like
I know you, even though that's very much how sport
fandom works.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Like sure, it's also like how many people I are
well are actually calling these people by their nicknames, you
know what I mean? Like, I don't know what's a
classic hockey nickname, stuff like buzzy something like that, Hey, Buzzy,
Like that would be kind of like a term for buddy.
That wouldn't even be specific, but guys would say it
to each other on the ice. It's not like when
(33:17):
I'm talking about Austin Matthews, I'd be like, oh, Buzzy
over there. I'd be like Austin Matthews over there. Like
they are clearly talking about the inner circle group of
women and girls who they have the opportunity and the
privilege to be surrounded by, and they're specifically calling them
out and saying I don't like it when you call
me by my nickname, literally call me Matthew or Brady, Like,
(33:40):
get over it, guys, like literally get over it. And
it's like, you know what I mean. Like that's where
I'm like, what is this take? Even? And this take
is really just showing what hockey culture and more broadly,
what sports culture actually is behind closed doors, because I
think stuff is this, this is what they're saying on
a podcast. Let's let us remember that this is what
(34:01):
they're saying on a podcast, So like, imagine what the
conversations are actually like when the doors are properly closed
and it's just a bunch of fellas in a room.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
The thing that really gets me go into is like
in this podcast. If you look at different parts of
it too, they're talking about like hockey terminology and how
they don't like it when people outside of the sport
use it. Part of this quote is you're not allowed
to say that you don't play in the National League,
(34:34):
Like it is this what we're talking about, you know
what I mean?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Like this is exactly what you were talking about at
the beginning of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
If I had a coworker like say something to me
that's like a hockey slang or a hockey.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Word, I'd be so jazz.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
I'd be like, yeah, let's talk about that, Like I
don't understand this, Like this gatekeeping is so weird to me.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
It's so weird and honestly stuff. It's a huge reason
why we started the Gist. I was like, there's so
many people out there who are being gay kept from
an incredible sport because the sport and its players can't
help itself, Like they don't know how much they are
harming themselves by being who they are and not advancing
their culture versus us from the gistperspective, being able to
(35:14):
look at the sport purely and be like this sport
is so sick everybody should be able to feel like
they can fall in love with it if they are
given the opportunity to join the community in a way
that makes them feel actually welcome, you know what I mean.
Like when I see people like the Kuchuck Brothers say
these things on their podcast, I'm like, and this is
(35:36):
why they just exists, and this is why hockey culture
needs to change, and this is why we are probably
going to be doing this podcast ten years down the
road stuff and talking about the same shit.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Mm hmmmm.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Anyway, I think y'all know how we're feeling on this
and maybe heated rivalry will help change things.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Who knows, who knows, who knows.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
But if you'd like to be featured on a future episode,
if you want to talk about something, please you can
call us, leave us a voicemail if you'd like. We'd
love to hear your voice at one four three seven
five six four five five seven nine. You can email
us if that's your preferred method of communication at pod
at the jus sports dot com, or as Ellen mentioned,
feel free to dm us on Instagram, at Ellen at
the Gist, and at Sephanie Rotts.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And thank you again to Tally for this very timely
question perfect. We're a hockey podcast today. That's so wild.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
This is such a good day for me and it
depends on how you w yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Exactly, well up, up, some downs. And with that, thank
y'all so much for tuning in that mark and today's
episode will be back in your feed with a new
podcast on Tuesday. In the meantime, you know the drill.
If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love for you to rate, review, subscribe,
share with friends.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
This episode was edited by Savannah Held and produced by
Lisa min Utilo and Alisandra Puccio.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Again, I'm Steph Rotts
Speaker 1 (36:53):
And I'm Alan Hislop, and we will chat with you
again on Tuesday.
What's up, besties. Welcome or welcome back to another episode
of the Gist of It. Today's Thursday, December eleventh. We're
your co hosts. I'm Ellen Hisslap and I'm Steph Rots
And today we're making hockey gay again, baby, and I
will I do want to say, we're making hockey gay again.
Hockey's always been gay, correct, Hockey is gay?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
And we're so excited. Sports arekay, all sports are gay
and so works like ay, we just need to set
the tone for that. But also be the reason why
everyone's talking about hockey being gay is thanks to this
little TV show called Heated Rivalry that is truly taken
(00:48):
everyone over by storm. We're gonna talk about it, but
seven I do have to caveat we have not had
a chance to watch it yet.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, it's it's on the today, So we are talking
about it today from a cultural standpoint. We cannot and
will not be commenting on the actual content in terms
of like whether.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Or not we like the show. We don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
We don't know, but we know what it's about exactly.
We know what it's about. Everyone's been talking to us
about it and saying, how have you to not watched it,
and I think what we more so want to talk
about today is the cultural impact of Heated Rivalry. So
Heated Rivalry, for those of you who don't know, tells
(01:32):
the story of two pro hockey players, Shane and Elia,
who are in a secret, years long, very passionate relationship
that is masked by their intense and very legit on
ice rivalry. The show just premiered at the end of
November on Crave in Canada and HBO Max in the US,
and as we mentioned, everyone's talking about it. I think
(01:54):
one of the coolest things is that this is a
show that was produced in Canada, but it's getting rave
reviews everywhere and around the world. And I've just been
loving the tweets that are like, oh my god, thank
you Canada so much for the show and people being like, wait,
did the Canadian tax dollars help to fund the show?
Because it's truly amazing. And with that, Steph and I
(02:15):
have to say, you're welcome. Everyone.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Culture needs to be funded fun the arts Fund, are
you baby? Uh yeah, we have to talk about it
today even though we haven't seen it yet, because on
Tuesday night, the NHL showed a trailer of the show
at Montreal's Bell Center during a Montreal Canadians Pride night,
so an NHL teams Pride night, And as a longtime
(02:38):
hockey fan and someone who has truly grappled with my
love of hockey and men's involvement in the sport, I
can't overstay how big of a deal that this is.
There is so much homophobia in men's hockey that to
play this trailer at an NHL game is huge and
(02:59):
worth than a episode worth talking about.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
To have the show alone is huge, and then to
actually see it move into the pro space, and to
see it happening in a league where some teams are
celebrating pride, some teams aren't, some players are celebrating times,
some teams aren't. You know, it just feels momentous and
a really big deal, and so that's why we had
(03:21):
to talk about it. So today we're diving into hockey culture,
particularly how stigma and toxic masculinity have created this community
that feels very exclusive, and why showing this trailer feels
like a step in the right direction. And also I'm
going to add a little extra something to this stuff too.
How book talk has also really changed Talky, I think
(03:44):
for the better over the years, and so all of
that I think combined makes for honestly the perfect podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
And you can't discount fan fix and not like involvement
in the progression of book talk.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So we have a lot to them too. As you
can see, this is going to be a very interesting
podcast of ours. But first I have to call an
audible and that is because news was dropped on Wednesday
evening about the MET Gala. I think most of our
listeners would be aware. But the MET Gala is held
every year on the first Monday in May in New
York City and it is probably like the event of
(04:19):
the year stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Would you say that, I would say it's when US
normies like to look at really fancy outfits and.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
More costume outfits too, Like generally there's a theme every year.
It's also not an awards thing. It's to raise money
for the MET. It's generally considered fashion's biggest night out
and generally they have a lot of famous people co chairing, chairing,
part of the committee what have you. Last year it
(04:48):
made headway in sports because I think Lebron James and
Lewis Hamilton were involved which was really cool. But this
year's co chairs are Beyonce, Nicole Kidman and Venus Williams.
And Serena Williams has been a part of the met
Gala committee and group before, but Venus Williams hasn't, and
(05:10):
Venus being one of the co chair stuff just feels
so poignant to Venus actually getting the attention that she
deserves and the nod that she deserves of how she
actually was first in impacting women's tennis, especially for women
as well as in particular Black women, and how dominant
(05:32):
she was before Serena kind of became the face.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Such a good point that you've made, Ellen, because also,
as many might forget, Venus Williams has won seven Grand
Slams in singles.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Like she is, she has a very storied career.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
She herself like needs the recognition like a part and
separate from her sister.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, and she was a huge part too, and I
think growing the fan base but also even equal pay
when she was coming on. Like, there's so much that
obviously Billy Jean King has done and did and continues
to do in women's tennis and women's sports more broadly.
But Venus Williams is squarely a part of that conversation
and is squarely a part of changing the culture, changing
(06:15):
the tone in tennis. So I'm so excited to see
her be part of this and be co chairing. But
then there is another person stuff who is also involved
in this from a sports perspective.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yes, so on the host committee is Asia Wilson. What
a year for Asia Wilson. There's obviously many other people
mentioned on the host committee, but we are narrowing in
on Asia because.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
We need to front of the gym.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
We're sports podcasts.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Where are sports podcasts?
Speaker 3 (06:42):
But also, wasn't this the year that she won Times
Athlete of the Year.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yes, it's her, your baby. Wasn't this the year that
she won WNBA MVP? Wasn't this the year that she
won Finals MVP? Wasn't this the year that she won
the WNBA Championship? And on hot Ones and she was
on hot Ones and and she was on the gist
of it, like she's just been having the best year
of her life. And so I just think thinking about
(07:10):
this powerhouse group of people coming together is amazing. But
I also think, you know when your heroes almost get together,
and thinking that Asia Wilson's a little bit younger than us.
Venus Williams is quite a bit older than us, And
to think about that kind of passing of the paton,
but in a space and a place like the met
Gala is occurring, that's kind of cool to think about.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Wow, Yeah, this is sick. I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
It's gonna be great. It's gonna be great. We're so
excited for this conversation. There's so many layers to this,
We're going to dive into every single one, but first
we want to lay the groundwork before contextualizing how showing
(08:01):
the Heated Rivalry trailer fits into the NHL's long history
of homophobia and anti lgbt QUI A plus behavior. We
also want to note here too, that Heated Rivalry is
based off of a book which is very much involved
in everything on the book talk side of things, which
we will get into at the end of the podcast,
(08:21):
because it's very just interesting to see the influence of
women and fans and how that also impacted the show
getting created too.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
I'm so excited to learn from you in that segment.
So let's dive into hockey culture because we do need
to kind of paint the scene in terms of why
we are celebrating showing a trailer at.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
A game in an arena that is called the Bell
Center and Bell owns Crave, so like there's commercial realness
in all of this too, right, Like, Yeah, it's so
exciting it happened at the Bell Center owns Crave everyone,
so like that's so great. But if it's going to
show up in one place, it's going to be.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
The Bell Center. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
For Americans, some contacts, like two media companies own the
whole country in Canada. Yeah, Bell is one of them,
So there's one.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
It's very similar, right, Like, there's so many arenas in Philly,
like the Lincoln Financial Field, Like same idea.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah, and so we'll even explore that in this podcast,
the financial impacts of all of this, so stick around.
But hockey culture itself, we've talked about it at length
on this podcast so many times. We simply could not
link to all of the times that we have talked
about hockey culture. But we're going to put our most
recent episode for eighty four in the show notes. If
you do want to kind of dig your teeth into this,
(09:42):
if you are coming to us because of heated rivalry
and now you want to learn more, go to our
show notes and there'll be a longer discussion there that
you can get into. But basically, we are separating hockey
the sport from the culture that it's created. So you
can love hockey and then it doesn't mean that you
are assimulated or into the culture itself. So just making
(10:03):
that very very clear that distinction. But hockey culture is
a way largely for the Canadian nation state to really
uphold the hegemonic order the white rich cisgender straight man.
This is where all of that is maintained very very
heavily and policed very heavily. It is a sport that
(10:25):
encourages sameness, that is very hard to play if you
do not have money, and will use violence to kind
of continue on this tradition in this culture through.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Hazing, bullying.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
You really the specifically the young men that not have
to because I love hockey, that play this sport really
do have to conform in order to be accepted. And
I think that is really what's at the culture here
when we are also talking about homophobia.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, and I think that this manifests itself in different
ways to Stephan from a broader perspective as well. The
hockey culture starts at the top and it trickles down,
but it also starts at the bottom and trickles up,
especially in Canada, and a lot of these fellas have
to make decisions when they're twelve thirteen years old of
(11:18):
do they think that they're going to make it to
the show? Aka, do they think they're going to make
it to the NHL. And in comparison to a lot
of other sports, where you go and play in the
NCUBLEA for a couple of years and then you go
pro with the NHL, the best players are literally scouted
when they're like fourteen years old, go to their junior
(11:39):
teams when they're sixteen to eighteen years old, and then
they're in the league. And so they also don't have
this formative growing up perspective that a lot of other
sports like the NFL, NBA, WNBA have because there's this
NCUBA pipeline that's built in which in and of itself
does not also help hockey culture in comparison to other
(12:01):
sports cultures.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
No, they're not going to university.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Rick west had, who's done a lot for the most part,
some of them, I'm making really general statements because I'm
also get really upset about all this. And we talked
a lot in the past about the slush funds that
Hockey Canada had to cover up sexual assault scandals or
sexual assault allegations, I should say, as well as the
(12:25):
most recent Hockey Canada trial that happened against the five
either current or former NHL players. And Rick west Head
has been doing a lot of great reporting here in
Canada for TSN and he just came up with a
book that's on my reading list. I haven't read it yet,
but he called it We Breed Lions and spoke to
a lot of junior hockey players in that book, and
(12:46):
a lot can be learned at that junior level in
terms of what the culture really is like, because, like
Ellen said, these children are being separated from their families
and playing hockey with men much older than them. Depending
on their skill arrange, it can be at quite a
young age.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, and that's where players are Hayes. They adopt the
same hair, they speak, the same way you talk to someone.
You'll notice if they have a literal hockey accent or not.
They can get made fun of for dressing differently and
literally Austin Matthews, the now captain of the Toronto maple Leiefs,
was made fun of for going on the cover of GQ.
(13:23):
If that was to happen in the NBA, everyone would
be celebrating that athlete going on the cover of GQ.
Gay players stay closeted or self select out of the
sport entirely, and so that's kind of the some of
the tangible ways. But the list goes on and on
and on, and I think to reiterate what you said,
stuff like just because you play hockey, we're not saying
(13:43):
that that means you inflict violence on others. But I
think the main thing we wanted to just contextualize for
this conversation is just that hockey culture is not an
inclusive and welcoming culture. And so when we're talking about
a book like Heated Rivalry that's turning into a show
that is having a trailer getting played at an NHL game,
(14:05):
that's a big deal because of the sameness in this
culture that's been cultivated for decades.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Now to zoom in more specifically on the history of
anti lgbtqia plus action in the NHL in the leagues
one hundred and seven year existence. Not a single active
or former player has ever come out as gay, and
that is statistically impossible. They're certainly from a data management perspective,
(14:34):
that is impossible in the sense that they certainly exist.
The NHL is the only major men's league so out
of the NFL, NHL, MLB, and NBA without a single
out gay player, either active or retired in its one
hundred and seven year history.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
The math is a math No, the Matho is a
math Canadian. Luke Procop, who is an outgay man, is
pro hockey player that currently plays for the Milwaukee Admirals
in the AHL, which is essentially a feeder league into
the NHL, and so he is really the only player
right now that's out and in the system from a
(15:13):
pro perspective in North America.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
In twenty seventeen, the NHL launched Hockey Is for Everyone,
which was an initiative meant to combat discrimination in the sport.
Hasn't done a whole lot. As outlined many times before,
hockey is very exclusive for a lot of different reasons,
and this initiative was very needed and created specifically to
brawn in hockey's appeal to bring in more marginalized groups
(15:39):
like the LGBTQI plus community into the NHL and folks
of lower economic status black players like you name it.
This is a very exclusive, exclusionary sport and so the
hockey is for everyone. Initiative was trying to do something
about that, and.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
I think that it came from a good place. I
I do think that the intention was there and it
was right. But I think what was really hard from
a fan perspective is that it felt like whiplash. Where
in twenty seventeen, I think the NHL was like, Okay,
we are recognizing that we need to change, we need
to try to do better, we need to influence what
youth hockey culture is looking like to and across North America.
(16:19):
The hockey culture starts in Canada, but it definitely percolates
across North America and honestly across the world in terms
of what it's like on the men's side. And what
was really tough stuff is that you think you're making
headway since twenty seventeen, and then in twenty twenty three,
I think that's where we all had the whiplash because
the NHL banned the use of pride tape shortly after
(16:42):
announcing that wearing special warm up jerseys during theme nights
like Pride Nights was no longer allowed. And this was
interesting because this was happening. This type of conversation was
happening a lot in a lot of different leagues, and
the NHL took a very interesting stance. My favorite part
(17:03):
of this is that it was met with backlash by
a lot of the fans but also from players. And
the best player in the league, in my opinion, is
Edmonton oiler Connor McDavid, and he spoke up and talked
about it, and we hadn't had that in the NHL
in a really long time. And to have the face
of hockey globally say that is baloney, and I'm still
(17:25):
going to wear the jersey, use the Pride tape, I'm
still outwardly going to support this community in whatever way
I can. That felt really great and I loved that
from a fan perspective because I felt like, also two stuff.
When we think about this sameness and all of them
trying to like almost be on the same page or
have the same opinion. Connor McDavid was like, f that
(17:46):
I don't have that same opinion.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
I'm going to tell people because from home, I feel
like I've just been screaming into the ethers say something
to these players. And Arizona Coyotes defenseman Travis Dermot defied
the band and used pride tape during a game anyways,
and then the band was repealed shortly after. Like it
does just take a couple of players to make a stand,
(18:09):
but it is such a rare thing in hockey.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
It's really hard. And I think, to your poisef this
like the sameness and the respect and like respecting the
rules and attacting the league, and like the hierarchy is
so hockey in comparison to the NBA or the NFL.
That's like we're the players, we're the products. We're going
to do what we want to do, you know what
I mean. Like it is it is a little bit
different in that side with hockey. So that's kind of
(18:35):
some of the history and also recent history of how
the NHL has and has not supported the LGBTQAA plus community.
But that sets the scene for why it was such
a big deal that this heated rivalry trailer happened and
was showcased at an NHL game. Again with the asterisks
(18:57):
of the commercialization of the Bell side and Bell owning
Crave and this being a standout show for Crave. Heated
rivalry tells the story, as we mentioned, of Shane and Elia,
who are in this very secretive, years long, passionate relationship
that's masked by their on ice rivalry. Shane is Canadian,
(19:18):
Ilia is Russian. They're competitors internationally as well in their
fictional pro hockey league, which is Major League Hockey. Both
of them are captains of their teams, and so it
just you can almost picture it happening in real life too,
especially because there's so many Canadian and Russian competitors and
so many Canadian Russian teammates in the NHL, but also
(19:40):
playing internationally.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
I mean, we've seen it on the women's side, not
with Russia, many Canada US.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
This is not a new concept.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
No, No, you're women's sports like we're a short period.
I'm like, no, there's so many rivalries. You've got people
playing gold medal games against each other, which is so
much fun. We will say again, Steph and I haven't
watched this, but what a lot of people have said,
do not watch this with your parents. It is a
(20:09):
steamy show for sure. It's graphic and it's fun and
it's based off of and this is I think maybe
Steph where we can talk about book talk a little bit,
but it is based off of a book that really
did super well on book talk. And for those of
you who aren't familiar on book talk, how would you
(20:29):
say it's stuff. It's like basically this subgenre community of
TikTok that really focuses on reviewing and reading books and
promoting books. And in particular, a subgenre that has come
out is sports smut for lack of a better term,
where there's these fictional romance novels and hockey smut is
(20:53):
the most popular sport in terms of these novels. And
what's really cool is that there's we talked about it
in one of our group newsletters back in June, but
there's this like illustrated cover vibe that you get with
all of these hockey book romance novels, and there's straight relationships,
there's queer relationships, and it really has felt like a place,
(21:15):
at least book talk for me stuff and being on
book talk has felt like a space where more people
feel like they can enter into fandom in a different way.
And it feels like a space where a lot of
women and queer folks are like, wait, I could be
welcome into this sports community in a way that's fun
and then like find my fandom elsewhere. But hockey smut
(21:38):
has been like really on the increase.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I did some googling when Ellen brought this up to
me because I did.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Not know the depths, and oh my god, the amount.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Of titles that are specific to hockey is blowing my mind.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yes I'm obsessed.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yes, there's so many, and so maybe we should link this.
I'll link this newsletter in our show notes well, because
you'll see the kind of illustrations that are really common
in this kind of romanticy sports vibe. And where Heated
Rivalry really came from was this book talk. And what
(22:15):
makes me excited about that stuff is that this Heated
Rivalry show is also being powered by female fans and
queer fans of this book in particular, but it's impacting
hockey culture more broadly, which means that hopefully more women
and queer fans are feeling more welcome into hockey because
of this.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Just circling back to to the trailer real quick, another
reason why it is worth talking about is because like,
you know what you're watching when you see this trailer,
like it is.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
A gay hockey show.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
And I think that that is what is really exciting
about this is it's not like they're trying to hide
what this show is to pull people in, like you
know what you're getting into, and it's not subtle. And
I think that that is also what is worse celebrating
is that everyone in that arena, whether or not they
had heard about heated rivalry or not, if they watched
the trailer, they were on the same page, you know
(23:09):
what I mean. Like, I think that is also something
we need to say.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Yeah. So on Tuesday night, the Montreal Canadians hosted the
Tampa Bay Lightning at the Bell Center for their Pride Night.
During the game, the trailer played and the fact that
it happened is blowing up on social media and to
your point, stuff like it was so openly gay, like
men are kissing in the trailer. It is not subtle.
It's not this like link link nudge, nudge. I might
be gay. They're like, no, we're gay, and this is
(23:34):
fully what this is happening, or sorry, this is fully
what's happening in this show. This is a step in
the right direction, especially when the league is I think
and hope looking to become more inclusive. I also think
two stuff. As much as this happened in Montreal, Montreal
has its own interesting history when it comes to and
(23:55):
current I'd say with queer culture and well, we don't
really have time space to get into that, but Montreal
is an interesting space for that. But also when we
zoom out and we look at the political climate that
we're in right now, especially on the American side, and
with the NHL being an American and Canadian league, with
so many rights being attacked right now, it just feels
(24:18):
so poignant that this was being played at a league game.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Like this, and it is really important that we talk
about it. And regardless of whether or not you could
take the pessimistic angle and say it's a popular show,
would they have played this if it wasn't doing numbers
and it wasn't being picked up and talked about at
the rate that it's being picked up and talked about.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
I don't know, but they played it, and that's a win.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I do wonder if other arenas will play it. That's
my big question, right because for me, from a commercial perspective.
As I mentioned just the tie between Bell and the show,
I'm like, of course they're going to play the trailer.
That's their own streaming service, you know what I mean,
every single one of those arenas. Part of the reason
why it's called Crypto dot com is because Crypto is
(25:07):
able to leverage the JumboTron and the breaks and everything
like that to influence anyone who is watching a game.
What I'm interested in, Steph is as we're seeing hopefully
more and more Pride Nights being hosted across the NHL,
do those teams use heated rivalry? Do those teams give
(25:28):
out some books? Do those teams talk about heated rivalry
in one way or another, or do they bring in
another aspect or another book? Like I just I wonder
how much of this is the Bell Crave side of
things versus a true inspiration potentially to other teams when
they're doing their Pride Nights.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, they should capitalize on this pop culture moment. You
would think it would make a lot of sense, But
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
That's a good question.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Like I still think at the end of the day,
and this is my pessimistic take at the end of
the day, these teams are still like, Okay, what's in
it for me? And so it's so clear to someone there,
at least for me, I'm like, you know, what's in
it for them? Increased subscribers, So yes.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Because I need to get Craved now.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, it's like it's like I'm already on Crave and
I'm like, yeah, I've got that bundle, baby, like I'm
ready to go, and it's increased. Like once you're on it,
then you're finding your other shows. You're doing all of
that sort of stuff. So then is it a team
thing stuff or are we going to be like, okay, hbo, HBO, Max.
You guys are seeing how well this show is doing.
(26:34):
Should you pay for a trailer space in a jumbo
tron at an NHL arena? You know? So I think
there's a lot more. This is a huge deal and
that's why we're talking about it and that's what we're doing.
But I think my commercial lens and like Spidery senses,
you also have to be like, okay, will this continue
outside of this one night in Montreal for a very
(27:00):
clear reason.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
When my spidy senses, those are your spidy senses. I'm worrying,
and I really hope that there's no backlash from the
hockey community about this. I haven't seen anything yet, but
especially when I'm thinking small town where I grew up,
I do, where we grew up, sorry, where we.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Grew up bad.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
I hope the NHL doubles down on this and does
continue to play it in different arenas, in different spaces
and capacities, and does somehow get behind this popular thing,
this popular show that's out because if they don't, they
risk saying exactly what they've been saying all of these years,
stay closeted.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, they have a huge opportunity to welcome a brand
new fan base that I think would be not ever
forgetting or forgiving what has happened in the past, but
open to the next phase of the relationship. If this
was something meaningful that the league or the teams, what
have you, would be like fully getting behind. So with that,
(28:00):
we'll take a quick break. But we do have a
very interesting personal training sess to get to after this
that is also very hockey culture that I'm really excited
to talk about. So stick with us.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
As promised, we're hitting you with a personal training sesch
today This is the segment of the podcast where we
would absolutely love to field any of the questions that
you have about the sports world and or amplify a
hot take that you have.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
This one comes from one of our faves, Holly, who
we have chatted with on the podcast before. Tolly DMD
Steph and I. Steph is at Sephanie Rots on Instagram,
I am at ellen ethan gist on Instagram, and Tali said, hello,
I don't know if y'all have seen the Kuchuck Brothers
new podcast where they said nothing worse when girls call
(28:58):
a player by their nickname. Would love to hear your
thoughts on it. Classic hockey misogyny and during the era
of heated rivalry as well. So sad Tolly, you are
on your game, let's go like calling that out from
a misogyny side of things. And then also heated rivalry.
Tolly had no idea that we were gonna be talking
(29:19):
about heated rivalry today. So this is the perfect personal
training Sash and I am so excited to get into this.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Let's give some context.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
The podcast that is being referred to here is of Florida.
Is that Florida is Matthew in Brady Kuchuk's podcast. So
Matthew plays for the Florida Panthers in the NHL, Brady
the Ottawa Senators, and the pod past is called Wingmen
with Matthew and Brady Kuchuck.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
And these fellows are really good at hockey. These brothers
are good. Matthew has won a couple of Stanley Cups.
Now Brady is the captain of the Ottawa se Both
of them will be on Team USA. They were both
on Team USA for the Four Nations, although Matthew is
injury well, they have some injuries, so we'll see if
they end up being on that Olympic team. But I'm
(30:12):
pretty sure they'll end up playing. But they are a
big deal, I would say in hockey. Their dad also
played for the Philadelphia Flyers. He was a pest. I
really didn't enjoy him. And what I'll say too is
they're like I feel like they're trying to be the
Jason and Travis Kelce comparable or the Maher the Loneomar
(30:34):
like podcast comparable with all of her sisters too, Like
I think they've caught onto. Okay, families are so jokes
on podcasts. Can we figure out these boys what I
will say, they are the classic hockey brothers that we
were just talking about, Like they are the of like
white hockey boy culture brought up in the system vibes.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah, I'm not going to achieve that with this quote.
Here's the quote, nothing worse than when girls call a
player by their nickname?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
End quote.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
And that was said in the context of a larger
conversation that they were having of who gets to call
someone by their nickname? And previously the brothers were saying
that it's weird hearing anyone who isn't in the NHL
call a player by their nickname, and in their little
hook of this podcast, they're trying to like bring people
(31:29):
into hockey.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, and takes sense when it's really hard because I
think Matthew and this, he's like, it's the worst when
girls do it. He could have said just period when
fans do it, but he didn't, and he is receiving
feedback and backlash and rightfully so about this misogynistic undertone
of it all. And I think that's where to me, Seph,
(31:54):
I get really frustrated because I'm like, what did you
think was going to happen? Putting these two boys on
a podcast where they're talking about things. What do you
think is, what do you think they're going to showcase
in hockey culture? How do you think that they're going
to be informed educated about these types of things when
(32:14):
they were brought up in the culture that we were
just kind of explaining, And how do you think you're
going to bring on people like us into the conversation
with those types of people hosting?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Yeah, like, what did they think they were going to say?
I just like, what did they think they were going
to say?
Speaker 2 (32:37):
They probably thought this was going to be well received,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (32:40):
People be like, oh, you know what, Actually you're talking
about such a small percentage of people. And you know what,
I I don't want a parasocial relationship with you, You're right,
Kuchuck Brothers, Like, I don't actually want to feel like
I know you, even though that's very much how sport
fandom works.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Like sure, it's also like how many people I are
well are actually calling these people by their nicknames, you
know what I mean? Like, I don't know what's a
classic hockey nickname, stuff like buzzy something like that, Hey, Buzzy,
Like that would be kind of like a term for buddy.
That wouldn't even be specific, but guys would say it
to each other on the ice. It's not like when
(33:17):
I'm talking about Austin Matthews, I'd be like, oh, Buzzy
over there. I'd be like Austin Matthews over there. Like
they are clearly talking about the inner circle group of
women and girls who they have the opportunity and the
privilege to be surrounded by, and they're specifically calling them
out and saying I don't like it when you call
me by my nickname, literally call me Matthew or Brady, Like,
(33:40):
get over it, guys, like literally get over it. And
it's like, you know what I mean. Like that's where
I'm like, what is this take? Even? And this take
is really just showing what hockey culture and more broadly,
what sports culture actually is behind closed doors, because I
think stuff is this, this is what they're saying on
a podcast. Let's let us remember that this is what
(34:01):
they're saying on a podcast, So like, imagine what the
conversations are actually like when the doors are properly closed
and it's just a bunch of fellas in a room.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
The thing that really gets me go into is like
in this podcast. If you look at different parts of
it too, they're talking about like hockey terminology and how
they don't like it when people outside of the sport
use it. Part of this quote is you're not allowed
to say that you don't play in the National League,
(34:34):
Like it is this what we're talking about, you know
what I mean?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Like this is exactly what you were talking about at
the beginning of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
If I had a coworker like say something to me
that's like a hockey slang or a hockey.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Word, I'd be so jazz.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
I'd be like, yeah, let's talk about that, Like I
don't understand this, Like this gatekeeping is so weird to me.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
It's so weird and honestly stuff. It's a huge reason
why we started the Gist. I was like, there's so
many people out there who are being gay kept from
an incredible sport because the sport and its players can't
help itself, Like they don't know how much they are
harming themselves by being who they are and not advancing
their culture versus us from the gistperspective, being able to
(35:14):
look at the sport purely and be like this sport
is so sick everybody should be able to feel like
they can fall in love with it if they are
given the opportunity to join the community in a way
that makes them feel actually welcome, you know what I mean.
Like when I see people like the Kuchuck Brothers say
these things on their podcast, I'm like, and this is
(35:36):
why they just exists, and this is why hockey culture
needs to change, and this is why we are probably
going to be doing this podcast ten years down the
road stuff and talking about the same shit.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Mm hmmmm.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Anyway, I think y'all know how we're feeling on this
and maybe heated rivalry will help change things.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Who knows, who knows, who knows.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
But if you'd like to be featured on a future episode,
if you want to talk about something, please you can
call us, leave us a voicemail if you'd like. We'd
love to hear your voice at one four three seven
five six four five five seven nine. You can email
us if that's your preferred method of communication at pod
at the jus sports dot com, or as Ellen mentioned,
feel free to dm us on Instagram, at Ellen at
the Gist, and at Sephanie Rotts.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And thank you again to Tally for this very timely
question perfect. We're a hockey podcast today. That's so wild.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
This is such a good day for me and it
depends on how you w yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Exactly, well up, up, some downs. And with that, thank
y'all so much for tuning in that mark and today's
episode will be back in your feed with a new
podcast on Tuesday. In the meantime, you know the drill.
If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love for you to rate, review, subscribe,
share with friends.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
This episode was edited by Savannah Held and produced by
Lisa min Utilo and Alisandra Puccio.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Again, I'm Steph Rotts
Speaker 1 (36:53):
And I'm Alan Hislop, and we will chat with you
again on Tuesday.
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