February 11, 2025 • 40 mins
Have you ever found yourself swept off your feet only to land in a maze of legal drama? This episode features Chao Qi, a former client of Ilona's and a man with a fascinating story of romance and resilience. After meeting his ex-wife on a Latin dating website, what seemed like a fairy tale quickly unraveled into a six-month marriage and a two-year legal battle. Chao courageously opens up about the red flags he missed, the emotional and financial strains he endured, and how his experience is a powerful reminder of the gritty reality behind romantic facades. His journey is not only a cautionary tale but also a testament to the strength and perseverance needed to reclaim one's life.
We navigate the complex world of family law in California, emphasizing the critical role of prenuptial agreements to guard against the unforeseen challenges of divorce litigation. Our conversation with Chao sheds light on how the judicial system can be manipulated, with insights into the tactics some use to exploit legal protections. Chao's story highlights the societal stigma men face when coming forward as victims, and serves as a warning about the potential for false accusations and the misuse of legal avenues for personal gain. His experiences offer a sobering look at how relationships can go awry and the importance of being prepared and protected.
Chao's path to recovery and healing is both compelling and inspiring. We explore the deep wounds left by toxic relationships and the road to overcoming them, drawing parallels with dramatic narratives straight out of a TV show. Chao shares how the unwavering support of friends and family helped him find solace and rebuild his identity. This episode resonates with anyone facing similar struggles, underscoring the importance of self-care, the power of genuine connections, and the courage it takes to move forward. Whether you're intrigued by legal drama or seeking hope in adversity, Chao's story is a powerful reminder of resilience in the face of immense challenges.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chao (00:00):
I'm sure people out there who's listening to this - How
can a lawyer be that stupid?
Mila (00:06):
I don't think you were stupid.
She told you that she wasallergic to condoms, then she
was allergic to sperm, and thenshe wanted you to get a
vasectomy.
Chao (00:18):
It felt like somebody else was kind of tugging the strings
and I'm just some mannequinwalking around through the
world, right?
Ilona (00:30):
She was recording you and setting you up and filed a
frivolous restraining orderagainst you.
Then you filed one against heras well, so you had mutual
restraining orders against eachother.
Mila (00:34):
The
Ilona (00:40):
Welcome to the Glamorous Grind, where the courtroom meets
the catwalk and ambition nevergoes out of style.
Mila (00:43):
We're your hosts, Ilona and Mila, two powerhouse
attorneys, and your personalguides to the wild ride of legal
drama and real life hustle.
Ilona (00:53):
Every week, we're unpacking our most jaw-dropping
cases and showing you how webalance big dreams, family chaos
and a whole lot of sparkle,whether you're chasing your own
big goals or just here for theshocking twists.
Mila (01:06):
Pour yourself a cup and join us for the perfect blend of
grit and glamour.
It's law, it's life, it's theGlamorous Grind.
This week, we are starting offwith a segment we like to call
(01:28):
Past Cases Present Drama, wherewe take a walk down memory lane
to revisit our mostunforgettable cases.
Ilona (01:38):
And to make it even more exciting, we're bringing in a
special guest to share hisexperience firsthand.
Mila (01:42):
We are so excited to welcome Chao Qi on the program.
Ilona (01:46):
Chao is one of my former family law clients and he has
quite a story to tell.
He met his ex-wife on the Latindating website.
He was married for a shortperiod of time just six months
but his divorce lasted over twoyears because his wife made
claims to everything.
We'll talk to him about thesituation, the red flags he
didn't notice at the time, thelong legal battle and how the
(02:08):
situation affected Chow nineyears later.
Today's guest is Chao Qi.
Chao (02:14):
Yeah, thanks for having me on the show, Ilona.
Ilona (02:16):
What are you doing nowadays?
Chao (02:17):
I still work in intellectual property.
I was an intellectual propertyattorney and now I help manage a
small IP and tech consultingfirm here in San Diego.
Ilona (02:27):
Single ladies if you're interested.
I'm sorry but I just had to sayit because you are a catch, but
the lady that was in your lifeyears ago didn't appreciate you
took total advantage of you,dragged you through court for
two years after only six monthsof a marriage.
So you have an interestingstory to share to, I think, help
(02:51):
people who are out there in thedating world protect themselves
from those who are cunning andwant to take advantage of them
when all you want is to findlove and someone to care for you
.
You gave your all, but you knowlove and someone to care for
you.
You gave your all, but you knowshe was a sneaky bee.
Chao (03:06):
Everything got so messy so fast.
So basically, I had met myex-wife on an online dating
website.
Ilona (03:13):
LatinCupidcom.
I wonder if they're stillaround.
Chao (03:15):
LatinAmericanCupidcom.
Oh okay, yeah, something likethat.
I'm sure they're still around.
When I was in business school,we went on an overseas trip
where we do a project in anothercountry and I had done mine in
South America.
So we went to Peru andArgentina and I had a great time
with my classmates and myprofessors there and obviously
(03:35):
the women there are veryfriendly.
So I was like, oh, it would benice to have a South American
girlfriend.
So I signed up for a SouthAmerican dating website, which
was probably not the smartestthing to do at the time, but you
don't ever know, right.
Ilona (03:47):
I think another interesting part about your
story, from what I recall, ishow she seduced you.
Chao (03:54):
I had first met her.
You know, I flew out there tomeet her and the first thing
that happened was that she had,like, asked me to just shower
with her.
I'm kind of a shy person.
I'm a very big introvert andI'm very shy.
I remember we slept in the samebed but nothing happened.
I was just frozen.
Ilona (04:13):
How did you sleep?
Yeah, you were saving yourselffor a marriage.
And then she seduced you thatday In the morning, didn't she
say so, are you going to marryme now?
Chao (04:22):
By the end of the trip, like obviously we had slept
together and she had saidsomething along the lines of
like, oh, you know, you're goingto leave and you're only here
for your week of fun, and I'mjust like that's not true, right
?
It's not like I'm here to takeadvantage of you or anything.
Ilona (04:41):
But I remember she pulled the guilt card like wanted to
use me, sort of a deal.
What about now that we've slepttogether?
Chao (04:46):
When she says that.
I think it is kind ofmanipulative and trying to like
guilt you into, into expeditingsomething right.
Ilona (04:55):
Yeah, I remember through the divorce proceeding that came
up that you know she wasincentivized by learning about
your potential and, moreimportantly, a lot of women from
other countries they would loveto come to United States and
get a green card, and that'swhat happened with you too,
right?
Chao (05:12):
My ex-wife suggested that her friends you know take me out
and show me around.
So I went out with them andthey had asked me you know what
I did?
And I told them and what I wasgoing to do in the future.
And they had asked well, youknow, well, how much are you
going to make?
Mila (05:28):
So I told them so, like basically coming from a
non-family law perspective, thiswoman comes in, gets married to
you.
How long between the time youmet her and, like you, got
married?
Chao (05:40):
Probably around six months as well.
Mila (05:41):
So six months later, you're married to someone you
barely know.
Six months after that, you'regetting a divorce and then, two
years down the line, she isfighting you for your family's
properties.
There was so much manipulation.
Ilona (05:54):
She had you paying all her parents' expenses in
Colombia on your credit cards.
Chao (05:59):
When I got my job, you know, I said, hey, you know her
mom needed some surgery on hereyes.
You know they had like livingexpenses they weren't have.
They didn't have money for food.
So I said, you know, I'm just,I can issue credit cards under
my account, under their name,and we ended up shipping that
over to her parents and herparents used that for for that's
(06:19):
so kind of expenses.
Ilona (06:20):
And then I remember her father ended up flying to our
trial and testifying in courtthat they are entitled to the
homes that your mom owns.
Do you remember that?
Chao (06:34):
Honestly, it was just a constant mess.
It felt like that.
It was like a web of crap thatI could not, you know, get out
of Right.
I was just trapped in it.
Mila (06:43):
What did your mom think when you told her you were
planning to bring her over?
Chao (06:47):
my mom was fine with it.
Ilona (06:49):
I mean my, mom didn't know what she was going to be
dealing with my mom's beenthrough a lot, um, you know, and
I feel really bad.
She was very supportive of himthroughout the whole thing.
I mean, as the mother youobviously would feel bad that
your son got.
You know somebody's treatingyour child like this.
I mean you you're not a childanymore, but to her you always
will be.
And on top of it, they weretrying to rob her through court
by making claims to her downpayment that his mother worked
(07:12):
hard for through her life topurchase an asset.
They were trying to take itaway from your family, from your
mom, after just six months ofmarriage, just because of that
marriage license.
And it's like getting marriedin California gives you a bunch
of obligations like fiduciaryduties, disclosure of all assets
, community interest.
So you know, for those who haveassets, if you're bringing
(07:33):
someone from out of the country,get a prenup and, you know,
make it bulletproof and don'tadd their names to titles until
they've you know marriage isproven.
You know I actually printedcopies of the paperwork we filed
with the court a long time ago.
Chao (07:49):
Oh boy I know.
Ilona (07:50):
Let me just refresh some of your memory about some of the
facts.
Your wife handed you herpersonal journal on a pen and
said that to prove your love,you must give her the real
properties that you own withyour mom.
And she instructed you to writethat down.
And in shock and desperation,you did what she said to prove
(08:12):
your love and affection.
And we proved that in court.
You ended up winning.
You had to litigate thatbecause she made this claim that
she's entitled to it.
Here's what the note said, andthen we'll discuss it.
It here's what the note said,and then we'll discuss it.
I, zhao Qi, hereby bequeathunto my wife blank name, the
entirety of my undividedinterest of the property located
(08:34):
at, along with any accountsassociated with the property,
etc.
And it was.
She had to sign it and shedictated it to you.
What was that like to be takenadvantage of like this?
Chao (08:48):
Well, first of all, I'm sure people out there who's
listening to this, how can alawyer be that stupid?
For one, and you know,admittedly it was wanted her
(09:10):
parents to move out here andstay somewhere.
So they were going to stay inthat property and we had just
gotten that one, but we werefighting so much that I was
actually sleeping in the otherproperty, you know, in my car,
in the garage, because we didn'thave any furniture or anything
at the time.
You know I wasn't getting anyrest, it was just constant
bickering.
She would call me like 20 timesa day at work and if I answer
(09:35):
it's a fight, If I don't answerit's a fight.
You know, it's just so muchstuff to do, especially at a
very stressful job at the timetoo.
Mila (09:44):
I just want to say, like you said, it was stupid.
I don't think you were stupid.
I think you were in love.
And I think there's a bigdifference between that, because
you know, it sounds like youwere a good person with good
intentions.
And I think when you're in thatstate of mind, especially when
you're sleep deprived I've hadthree babies, I've had times
(10:05):
where I didn't sleep for weeksyour brain doesn't think
logically and you were probablyjust hoping like, maybe if I
just do this one thing, maybeeverything will change, maybe
everything will get better if Ijust do this one thing, and I
don't know.
I hope you don't blame yourselffor that or feel like you were
at fault for that, because itsounds like you were manipulated
beyond your control.
Ilona (10:27):
You know I did find the part in the judgment where which
was oh my God, it was one, two,three, four, five, six day
trial.
The court does not believerespondent's testimony.
That is her testimony thatpetitioner you, the petitioner's
mother intended these funds asa gift to her parents, but they
flew all the way here fromColombia and had the audacity to
(10:48):
try to French.
Take your mom's hard earnings.
Mila (10:53):
It sounds like the court, you know, did its justice.
But it's a shame, it's a damnshame that it took two years of
your life to get to that, to getto that.
Chao (11:04):
So I had a debit card associated with my mom's bank
account and when we separated,my ex-wife had taken out
everything from our condoincluding the card.
And she found the card and sheknows what PIN number I use for
my cards right, I just use thesame PIN number and she went
around different ATMs in SanDiego withdrawing money from my
(11:26):
mom's bank account and I justdon't understand how anyone can
do something like that, Karma isa bitch.
Ilona (11:36):
She brought a boyfriend a new boyfriend during her trial.
Right Was sitting and watchingthe trial.
He was wearing Gucci belt,louis Vuitton.
She always finds the rich guys.
Chao (11:53):
You had pointed this out that she was wearing like.
Ilona (11:54):
Louisitton shoes and that like you're like, like, look at
her shoes.
I'm like what came along poorand she was asking for all or
for saying I have no income, Ihave no money, I can't support
myself.
But then she's wearing fancystuff to court.
Chao (12:01):
I'm like well, you had asked me did I buy her those
shoes?
I'm like no, I don't know wherethose came from, you know?
Mila (12:07):
I do want to say something about your mom, because you
said you feel bad and I justwant to tell you from a mom's
perspective and I think Alonawill agree Like we are like
lions protecting our children.
So, even though she wentthrough a lot, I guarantee you
she wouldn't have it any otherway and her main priority is
that you're safe and away fromthis like disgusting fiend that
(12:28):
tried to destroy you.
Chao (12:29):
I mean that's that's great of her, but that doesn't take
away any of how I feel aboutabout it Right, like I carry
like an immense amount of guiltthat you know I basically Now
preventing her from enjoying herretirement and you know all the
emotional and kind of financialissues that we have these days
(12:53):
is a direct consequence of mydecision to get involved.
Mila (12:56):
You were a victim.
You did not make a decisionbecause you weren't informed.
You can't make a decision ifyou don't know the facts.
So please stop blaming yourself, because it's not your fault.
Ilona (13:05):
Let me just make you feel better about this whole thing,
about her wasting her retirement, the fact that you kept your
properties, which you wereentitled to, but you had to
fight for it, and you had themsince a long time ago.
In California real estateappreciated a lot.
So whatever was spent onlitigation, I'm sure that in
terms of appreciation relativeto your loan, that has all been
(13:28):
made up.
So your mom, if she want torefinance or pull a line of
credit or anything else, I thinkis still going to be better off
today than back then because ofthe market.
Mila (13:38):
So really like I think from my perspective again not
having practiced in family lawthe lesson here is get a fucking
prenup.
Everyone else who's out thereright now in similar situations,
where they are in love, havinggreat intentions, like really
believing in the person they'remarrying, like don't trust.
Get a prenup right, like that'sIn California divorce is
(13:59):
expensive.
Ilona (14:00):
It's so easy to go get a marriage license for I don't
know 20 bucks at a cost nowadays, but it's going to cost you
hundreds of thousands of dollarsand people can make up bullshit
claims and raise them in courtand, unlike in civil court,
where you can file a motion forsummary or judgment, demur get
rid of claims that aren'tsupported by evidence, in family
(14:20):
court you cannot get rid of anyclaims until you get to trial.
You're forced to go throughwith it and you have a choice to
either have a lawyer help youor do it alone.
Chao (14:30):
Yeah, I think that was the biggest shock going into family
court is that ultimately it'slike a he said, she said,
argument right, and they cancome up with any sort of
arguments.
Ilona (14:43):
So she worked hard at trying to, you know, make her
strengthen her connections withpotential witnesses, incentivize
them as well to come and lie incourt and unfortunately, you
know, people often lie in familycourt.
District attorney's officedoesn't prosecute people for
perjuring themselves in familycourt.
Mila (15:05):
And that's always like my big issue with the American
judicial system.
I love the American judicialsystem.
I think it's great.
I think you know theprotections we have for people
are amazing.
But then it's always thebalance of like letting people
have their day in court, lettingpeople be heard, making sure
everyone has their due process,but is it too much?
Is it too much Because at theend of the day, you have very
(15:27):
costly services and you knoweveryone sues everyone.
My grandma always says likebecause we're from russia, and
she's always like half of theselawsuits would be arrested in
russia for fraud, because it'ssuch bullshit and she's right
and most other countries like itdoes not fly.
Chao (15:46):
I mean for me.
It's also a shock that she goesaround painting this image of
me as, like this horrible personthat will do anything within my
power to you know, hurt herright and people believe her.
In fact, I've lost friends overthis because she had help.
Mila (16:06):
I've spent 20 minutes with you and I can't imagine anyone
would believe that no, but shemanipulative.
Ilona (16:11):
people do that.
Chao (16:12):
And at the time, actually, regarding the testimony in
court, there was an instancewhere she had brought our
handyman right, who she wasliving with at the time, and,
yeah, he had said that I wasn'tproviding them any money.
And you had, like,cross-examined him and they
(16:33):
talked.
Ilona (16:34):
Somehow you got him to admit that yeah the court made a
specific finding that they findmr isaac I'm not gonna say his
last name his testimony notcredible.
Is that the handyman?
Chao (16:45):
yeah, that's a handyman, because alona just kind of like
gripped into him because he hadpaid for like a vacation for her
to go to like puerto rico orsomething she worked, everybody
from handyman to all the wayyeah, if you're a man, she
worked it and I guess she endedup giving her engagement ring to
him.
Ilona (17:02):
There's one thing about your case that I still remember.
That's almost unbelievable, butit was believable while you
were living through it, becauseshe was that manipulative.
She told you that she isallergic to condoms, then she
was allergic to sperm and thenshe wanted you to get a
(17:23):
vasectomy.
Chao (17:24):
She had talked about how her ex-boyfriend got a vasectomy
quote unquote for her, becauseyou know she's allergic to
taking birth control pills.
She's like, you know, did youever think about, you know, just
getting a vasectomy because itwould make things easier?
And I said, you know that'skind of.
I said I remember like saying,don't you think that's kind of
(17:46):
like manipulative, like whywould you want me to change?
As time went on, you know, shejust kind of lost it and she
just said it's like word forword you know you need to get
that fucking surgery, I'm neverhaving sex with you again.
And like, stomped out of theroom and went to go sleep on the
couch.
I'm like I don't know wherethis is coming from.
I said, you know, I know I'llget the surgery, but then, like
(18:08):
later on she'll message me.
It's like, oh, you know, I justwant you to do it only if
you're comfortable.
Ilona (18:13):
But like behind the scenes, she was pressuring you
and didn't she actually make youdo it like a week into your
marriage, once you got married?
Chao (18:21):
Yeah, so I ended up getting the surgery a week like
after we got married.
Ilona (18:25):
And you wouldn't do it but for pressuring you right.
Chao (18:28):
Pretty much, yeah.
I mean I wouldn't say like shemade me do it right, Because I
can still act out of my own freewill.
Mila (18:34):
And it sounds like you had great intentions.
I mean, I have two boys and mybiggest fear because I think the
biggest decision you make inlife is who you end up spending
your life with, and it is whenyou're a good person it's such a
slippery slope to get screwed.
But it sounds like you hadgreat intentions.
You wanted to give your all andshare your life with someone
(18:56):
and build a family and you justended up, unfortunately,
stepping into a trap.
Ilona (19:02):
So what advice would you give to someone who may find
themselves in a similarsituation?
Chao (19:06):
Well, first of all, I hope no one's ever in a situation
like this.
It's not a good feeling to haveand I don't wish that on
anybody.
I think definitely take thingsat your own pace.
Don't get pressured intospeeding things up just because
one person wants to Do your duediligence.
One person wants to do your duediligence.
(19:27):
You know, if you look them upon court records and they have
multiple filings against them,that's probably not a good sign.
You know she had litigationagainst, I think, two of her
tenants, then me, then thedoctor that she tried to get
fired from his job because theyhad met, met on tinder and um,
and he wanted to separate fromher and she lost it and started,
(19:51):
you know, stalking him at workand at his home and stuff.
And I mean you know there'sstuff like how did that guy
reach out to you.
Ilona (20:01):
And how did that guy reach out to you?
Chao (20:02):
it was the last day of work at my last law firm that I
worked at and I was literallyabout to shut everything down
and I had an email in my inboxfrom somebody.
I was like what is this?
I thought it was just spamemails.
I opened it and the email readsomething like hi Chow, you
don't know me, but this isurgent, please call me at this
(20:24):
number.
So I call him Hi, yeah, I'mChow.
And then he's like yeah, youknow, you don't know me.
But um, long story short, I hadmet your ex-wife on tinder.
We had been going out, for Ithink they were going out for
like three months, maybe half ayear at the time, and things
didn't work out.
I wanted to separate from her.
(20:45):
But then she started, you know,she kind of just lost it and
she was calling his job.
She called his supervisor athis work saying that he was
violating some HIPAA laws bydivulging, you know,
confidential patient informationto her.
But and then she had like,called his mom in the middle of
(21:07):
the night to yell at her andcall her an old hag, and she was
stalking him at his house andall this, all this crazy stuff,
and he was just uh, he justdidn't know what to do or who to
turn to, and kind of similarstory with with the tenants that
she had.
You know, eventually they allfind their way to me somehow.
Ilona (21:27):
It still hurts.
You know it still hurts.
What do you think could makethat pain go away?
Chao (21:33):
It's just something that you have to accept as part of
who you are, and it's anexperience, good or bad.
I think you try to find thegood from it and you try to
learn from the bad, the goodfrom it and you try to learn
from the bad, and you know justif you you had asked you you
(21:53):
know what you can do if you findyourself in these situations
and if you are and you've gottenpast one, or you've had been in
a series of of poorrelationships.
I think a lot of it isdependent on you to take a look
at yourself and figure out whatdraws you to these relationships
and why you're attracted topeople like this.
You just have to be careful outthere and not be so naive to
(22:16):
think that everybody in theworld has the best intentions
for you.
Ilona (22:20):
When you meet people, you don't right away assume they
have a personality disorder.
You start seeing red flags.
Then you get an argument.
Some people may draw you inbecause they can be charming and
they're good at making up andgoing overboard.
I mean, I personally wasmarried for four months.
We're lawyers, we're smart.
It doesn't matter how smart youare when it comes to matters of
(22:42):
heart.
We'll all make mistakes and wecan be fooled by people who you
know are just better at playingyou.
So you know, I also fell forsomeone who I thought was
charming.
I also got married quickbecause I'm like, okay, I waited
, you know, a long time.
So here he comes and then endedup being a nightmare for me.
But as a divorce attorney, Isaw the red flags.
(23:05):
I saw them and I also didn't doanything about them for a while
.
I just, you know, some thingswere comfortable and I just
stayed in it.
And then I got married reallyfast, within a couple of months
of meeting him too, and mymarriage then terminated fast
because he was physicallyabusive to me and I knew that,
if you know, it happens once ortwice that, um, it will continue
(23:28):
happening.
We ended up getting married.
I got the prenup, although atthat time I was, he was making
more money than I did, but Istill wanted a prenup because I
know that no matter how shortthe marriage is, it can cost you
a lot of money and a lot ofstress.
He jumped me and choked me,like to the point where I
thought I'm not going to get tosay bye to my mom.
(23:50):
I just remember thinking thisis what happens, like when you
die.
He let go at some point and I,you know, ran, called the police
, like my neck was all red, butI didn't want to press charges
against him because he was adoctor.
You know I filed for divorceshortly thereafter.
This happened on March 31st2016.
I filed for divorce on April1st.
(24:11):
I ended up paying him just tomake this divorce go away
although I probably legallydidn't owe him anything because
I didn't want to go through whatyou went through.
So my advice to people is ifthere is any domestic violence I
know you were a victim ofdomestic violence, because
domestic violence comes in manyforms.
It's emotional abuse, puttingsomeone down, controlling them,
(24:32):
isolating them from family andfriends.
It's not just physical abuse,and men are often victims of
domestic violence as well, likeyou were, because you did get a
restraining order against her.
But they're less likely to comeforward because it's more
embarrassing for men to go andfile it against women.
It's more frequent where it'sdone the other way around.
Chao (24:54):
After I'd gone through this, I went online to look for
support groups that maybe Icould relate to or could provide
some sort of comfort to mecitizens who go through the same
type of thing, where you knowthey have somebody from a
foreign country coming in whoseintentions are to ultimately get
(25:17):
a green card, with no actualintention to really stay in a
relationship, and what they dois they will incite some sort of
reaction out of the person andthen they'll use that reaction
as a means to file a restrainingorder or a lawsuit against them
(25:37):
, saying that they've beenabused and, through certain acts
within the immigration system,they're able to pursue their own
path towards immigration withinthe United States.
And at the time I wasvolunteering for a pro bono
legal immigration clinic here inSan Diego called Casa Cornelia,
of which I did a lot of workfor, and throughout my
(26:01):
experiences in law school andwithin my law firm, I did a lot
of work trying to help out, youknow, particularly women of
domestic violence, and it just,you know, really made me
question what I was doingbecause I thought, hey, you know
, if my ex-wife can do and saysome of these things, you know,
(26:22):
maybe some of my clients don'thave the best intentions and I
think that's really hurtfulbecause as an attorney you know
you want to do what's best foryour client and to advocate for
them.
So when you kind of have thatdoubt in your mind it's really
difficult to carry on that work.
And I think it's reallyunfortunate because these laws
are made to protect people realvictims but unfortunately by
(26:47):
having these protections itallows people with malintentions
to come in and take advantageof the system and even clog up
the system and make it so wherereal victims don't even have an
avenue towards the justice orhelp that they need.
Ilona (27:04):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I mean that is absolutely true.
I did an immigration internshipa long time ago and I helped
victims of domestic violence andhelped them file for U visas.
In this case, in myrecollection, and that was like
20 years ago, I did this.
You probably have.
More recent knowledge is thatif you're married to a US
citizen for three years, you canget a permanent green card and
(27:25):
then, if you're married to fiveyears, you can file for
citizenship without the UScitizen helping you file it.
But if someone doesn't want tobe committed to a marriage for
three years to five years, thenthe way to get documents if they
don't have sincere intentionsand are here to just get
(27:49):
legalized in a country is tofake a domestic violence
incident, record them like whathappened to you, set you up and
then file for restraining orderand use that with the federal
authorities to claim you're avictim of domestic violence.
Chao (28:05):
I think you just have to have a higher standard, like you
said in court, about tellingthe truth and being able to
provide evidence to back that up, and that's another thing that
I think maybe I could have donebetter was keep documentation of
stuff before she was able to,you know, take my phone and
throw it away, basically.
Ilona (28:23):
You know, another thing that happened to you that
tarnished your reputationunjustly was that someone like
your ex-wife went on socialmedia and proclaimed to be a
victim of domestic violence,making false accusations, you
know, ruining your reputation,and people that were your
friends turn away from you.
Can you talk more about that?
Chao (28:43):
Yeah, I think it goes to just back to kind of her ability
to spin the story and to bemanipulative, right?
For instance, her ability tospin the story and to be
manipulative, right?
For instance, on InternationalWomen's Day this was in March,
while we were still married shehad come up to me and said hey,
you know, do you know what todayis?
I'm like no, and this is earlyin the morning and I'm planning
(29:04):
on going to work.
She's like, oh, it'sInternational Women's Day.
I'm like, oh, yeah, I mean Iknew that, but you know.
I asked her why.
And she's like well, do youhave anything planned?
I said, you know, blank face,no, I didn't have anything
planned.
I'm like was there somethingyou wanted to do?
And she said well, you know, inmy country it's a very
(29:31):
important day where all the guystake, you know, buy flowers for
their girlfriends and take themout to nice dinners and stuff.
And I said, oh, I mean, that'sfine, like we can go out to
dinner.
So when I got to the office,the first thing I did was call
in for uh, call in um a flowershop to get her like a bouquet.
I made a reservation at a nicerestaurant for us to go to
dinner and I told her it's like,hey, you know we're gonna go
here and um, and then shestarted responding on whatsapp.
(29:51):
It's like no, I just want youto come home early.
All I care about is spendingtime with you and all the sweet
stuff.
And I'm like, okay, but you know, I already made the reservation
, we're going.
You know, like I meant it aslike a let's go, we already, you
know, we already settled forthis.
But the way that she presentedit she ended up posting a
screenshot, I think, onInstagram online, like that it
(30:14):
was that I was forcing her to goto this night's dinner and all
she wanted was to spend timewith me.
And the responses to that werelike, oh, this is such a dumb,
rich Chinese guy.
He doesn't know what he has andstuff.
And that's very hurtful,because I was just trying to
give her what she asked for,right, and what they don't know
is.
I did come home early that dayto spend time with her and I
(30:35):
brought her the flowers and shesaid, well, we don't need to go
to the dinner.
I said, that's fine, we cancancel the dinner, but the
minute I get home, you know, shejust ignores me and if I try to
do anything, right, like she'djust been on YouTube all day
looking at makeup videos orwhatever it is that she did all
day and and I, you know, I wouldtry to talk to her and she
(30:57):
wouldn't say anything to me.
So if I open up my computer toplay a video game or something,
she'd get very angry and she'dsuddenly, just, you know, slam
her laptop closed, turn off thelight, and I'm and I'm just like
, and if I stay on the computer,then she rolls over and, like,
screams at me like you know why,why can't you let me?
(31:17):
You can't?
You see I'm trying to sleephere, you know why can't you let
me rest?
You know, and this is stuffthat I had to deal with on a
daily basis so nothing wouldmake her happy with you.
Ilona (31:27):
But ultimately it seems like things that are posted on
social media are taken out ofcontext to support the story
she's trying to portray, put youin a negative light.
So I think people need to beaware that whatever is posted,
you really have to hear bothsides of the story, and often
text messages.
If you don't see the rest ofthe story can be taken out of
(31:49):
context.
Same thing with videos andother evidence that may be
presented in court.
You know those who are going totry to set you up will take a
piece of video or recording thatmay be helpful to them and not
show the rest of the contextwhere they may have done
something or said something toset this off.
And I recall we had this issueduring discovery, when she had
(32:10):
all the evidence but shewouldn't provide it, and you
also mentioned, and you remindedme, that to embarrass you in
the court proceeding, she triedto submit naked photographs of
you in discovery.
Chao (32:22):
Yeah, she basically took all the private photographs of
me that she had taken or that Ihad provided to her, and she
provided it to your law firm,and your poor associate had to
be traumatized by by all of that.
Ilona (32:38):
I don't remember seeing them, so we're okay.
Chao (32:41):
I mean, they're out there, I guess, somewhere on your
server, so hopefully at somepoint they can be deleted.
But but yeah, I just felt likea lot of what she did was trying
, you know, after we hadseparated.
Ilona (32:53):
We didn't ask for that, she just threw it in to you know
?
Embarrass you.
Chao (32:57):
Yeah, I felt like she just wanted to embarrass me in front
of people, and that was afterwe separated, and before we
separated she just tried to, youknow, tease me and belittle me
and make me feel like I hadnobody in the world that I could
turn to for help.
Ilona (33:13):
I'm sorry men, stay away from women like that, please,
and if you're not sure, come seea lawyer, even if you're not
getting married.
You know, when I was young Iused to love watching Jerry
Springer.
It was very exciting to me.
I would love that show, and Iused to love watching Maury
Povich and Ricky Lake, and I getit all now in practicing family
law, and it's always differentStuff you cannot make up.
(33:34):
You don't need to script it,it's just like real life stories
, but everything that you canthink of happens.
Chao (33:42):
That's what I think.
I think my story about this isstranger than fiction, right?
I just don't know how you canmake something up like this.
And yeah, like another thingshe said.
A lot was like oh, you know,none of your friends care about
you.
I'm the only person that caresabout you, like they're just
interested because of your moneyor whatever.
(34:04):
There was a lot of that goingon, you know, and I did get
isolated a lot from my friends,but definitely, you know, stick
to your friends, because theyhave and family.
And family.
Yeah, I'm very fortunate inthat I have a very, very
tight-knit and supportivefriends group here now that I've
kind of built up after the fact.
But at the time, you know, Ihad just moved back to San Diego
(34:26):
from LA and I didn't haveanybody really to talk to about
this stuff.
I didn't have anybody really totalk to about this stuff.
But now that I do, you know, Ithink you got to find people
that you know are there,trustworthy, that you can lean
on, because they'll hopefullygive it to you straight if you
are in a situation like this.
Ilona (34:42):
I think therapy also helps, like after my experience,
because I always thought, ok,I'm strong, I'm resilient, but
what happened, like in my shortrelationship, still impacted me
and I was, you know, I wasdating for the next two years
and I was like intentionallypushing guys away, which would
be a bitch, I think, just onpurpose to see how far I can
(35:04):
push it while they still want me.
And then I met this one guy andI'm still friends with.
His name was Dennis and he saidI went out with him like nine
times and then he was reallynice, we got along.
But then I was just saying meanthings to him like oh, you're
too short, I don't want to havekids with you, and like you name
it, I was not nice and he saidalone, I think you're doing all
this on purpose, like I've beenthrough this before.
You should go see a therapist.
(35:25):
And he gave me a phone numberfor a therapist.
So eventually it bothered meenough that I called the
therapist that he recommendedand that was the best thing that
I've done for myself and Ithink it makes it.
I went to her for four monthsand I was hungry for it, like my
soul and my spark away, liketelling me I'm bad and like
calling me names and just like.
Everything was very negative.
(35:46):
It was taken away from who Iwas and all I was resisting it
and my subconscious has impactedme.
So I wanted to get my normalself back, like, and so I went
(36:07):
there for months.
I read all the books.
She told me about verbal abuse,because you know he was
verbally abusive and she didEMDR.
It was very effective.
They do it for cops, like whenpolice officers shoot somebody
for the first time and you knowthey don't want to hold a gun
anymore.
I think it will be very helpfulto many people, including
(36:28):
yourself and those who are goingthrough a divorce.
What you do is you relive thetraumatic moments that are still
stuck in your mind and whathappens is you get desensitized
to it.
So, for example, what she didfor me she had me close my eyes
and then you know and I rememberI would tell her, yeah, I would
walk through the door and hewould be looking at his watch
like seven o'clock, 30 out of 30, you know, like failure, like
(36:50):
go to your room, like you know,just like yelling at me and like
you really live the moment andthen magically.
Somehow this works, that youhave like zero stress, zero
anxiety, zero negative feelings,like it just goes away.
Whatever she did, the fourmonths and the books that she
gave me helped me a lot.
Being miserable with someoneand subject to their demands and
(37:14):
making someone else happysometimes it's just better to be
alone.
So if you can't find the rightpartner, just enjoy your life.
There's so much to enjoy inthis world.
Mila (37:22):
It has been amazing hearing your story.
I mean it sounds like you wentthrough a lot.
Again, I don't have a familylaw perspective on this, I
wasn't part of the trial or thelitigation but it sounds like
you were put through the wringer.
But it sounds like you alsomade it out alive and stronger.
I always say you can't controlwhat happens to you, but you can
(37:45):
control your reaction to it andI'm sure in the moment it
didn't feel like your reactionwas great, but you're sitting
here before us now stronger,better, able to talk about it
with just such dignity and grace.
So I appreciate your time andreally appreciate you sharing
your story with us.
It can't be easy, and I thinkthat this episode will really be
(38:12):
hope for someone who may begoing through toxicity now or
through a heavy litigation stageof someone else who maybe
treated them wrong or is suingthem for things that they're not
entitled to, that they too willcome out of it alive, better,
stronger, with lessons learned.
Chao (38:33):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me and for sure, you
know, I think it's important torealize that we're not alone and
, for instance, when I got thatcall from the, from the doctor,
right like I felt somewhatvindicated and but it's always a
process and you never getcomfortable, comfortable with it
, because it's like I said,there's going to be people out
(38:55):
there who just think I'm just aterrible person and you just
have to accept that because youcan't really please anybody.
But the people you want toplease are, you know, your
friends and family, and as longas they love you, I think that's
all that really matters.
Mila (39:07):
I always say is hating bitches aren't and happy bitches
aren't hatin'.
Chao (39:14):
I don't know about that saying, but sure Sounds good to
me.
Ilona (39:19):
And that's it for today's episode of the Glamorous Grind.
We hope you enjoyed diving intoChow's story a tale of
resilience, lessons learned andtwists that only life can
deliver.
Mila (39:29):
Next week we are turning up the drama with a new guest
who found themselves at theheart of a legal scandal and
came out stronger than ever.
Ilona (39:38):
Remember new episodes drop every Tuesday, so mark your
calendars.
Mila (39:42):
Don't forget to hit subscribe, leave us a glowing
review and share the glam withyour friends.
It's your support that's goingto keep the grind going strong.
Ilona (39:51):
Stay confident, stay bold and we'll see you next week on
the Glamrs Grind.
I'm sure people out there who's listening to this - How
can a lawyer be that stupid?
Mila (00:06):
I don't think you were stupid.
She told you that she wasallergic to condoms, then she
was allergic to sperm, and thenshe wanted you to get a
vasectomy.
Chao (00:18):
It felt like somebody else was kind of tugging the strings
and I'm just some mannequinwalking around through the
world, right?
Ilona (00:30):
She was recording you and setting you up and filed a
frivolous restraining orderagainst you.
Then you filed one against heras well, so you had mutual
restraining orders against eachother.
Mila (00:34):
The
Ilona (00:40):
Welcome to the Glamorous Grind, where the courtroom meets
the catwalk and ambition nevergoes out of style.
Mila (00:43):
We're your hosts, Ilona and Mila, two powerhouse
attorneys, and your personalguides to the wild ride of legal
drama and real life hustle.
Ilona (00:53):
Every week, we're unpacking our most jaw-dropping
cases and showing you how webalance big dreams, family chaos
and a whole lot of sparkle,whether you're chasing your own
big goals or just here for theshocking twists.
Mila (01:06):
Pour yourself a cup and join us for the perfect blend of
grit and glamour.
It's law, it's life, it's theGlamorous Grind.
This week, we are starting offwith a segment we like to call
(01:28):
Past Cases Present Drama, wherewe take a walk down memory lane
to revisit our mostunforgettable cases.
Ilona (01:38):
And to make it even more exciting, we're bringing in a
special guest to share hisexperience firsthand.
Mila (01:42):
We are so excited to welcome Chao Qi on the program.
Ilona (01:46):
Chao is one of my former family law clients and he has
quite a story to tell.
He met his ex-wife on the Latindating website.
He was married for a shortperiod of time just six months
but his divorce lasted over twoyears because his wife made
claims to everything.
We'll talk to him about thesituation, the red flags he
didn't notice at the time, thelong legal battle and how the
(02:08):
situation affected Chow nineyears later.
Today's guest is Chao Qi.
Chao (02:14):
Yeah, thanks for having me on the show, Ilona.
Ilona (02:16):
What are you doing nowadays?
Chao (02:17):
I still work in intellectual property.
I was an intellectual propertyattorney and now I help manage a
small IP and tech consultingfirm here in San Diego.
Ilona (02:27):
Single ladies if you're interested.
I'm sorry but I just had to sayit because you are a catch, but
the lady that was in your lifeyears ago didn't appreciate you
took total advantage of you,dragged you through court for
two years after only six monthsof a marriage.
So you have an interestingstory to share to, I think, help
(02:51):
people who are out there in thedating world protect themselves
from those who are cunning andwant to take advantage of them
when all you want is to findlove and someone to care for you
.
You gave your all, but you knowlove and someone to care for
you.
You gave your all, but you knowshe was a sneaky bee.
Chao (03:06):
Everything got so messy so fast.
So basically, I had met myex-wife on an online dating
website.
Ilona (03:13):
LatinCupidcom.
I wonder if they're stillaround.
Chao (03:15):
LatinAmericanCupidcom.
Oh okay, yeah, something likethat.
I'm sure they're still around.
When I was in business school,we went on an overseas trip
where we do a project in anothercountry and I had done mine in
South America.
So we went to Peru andArgentina and I had a great time
with my classmates and myprofessors there and obviously
(03:35):
the women there are veryfriendly.
So I was like, oh, it would benice to have a South American
girlfriend.
So I signed up for a SouthAmerican dating website, which
was probably not the smartestthing to do at the time, but you
don't ever know, right.
Ilona (03:47):
I think another interesting part about your
story, from what I recall, ishow she seduced you.
Chao (03:54):
I had first met her.
You know, I flew out there tomeet her and the first thing
that happened was that she had,like, asked me to just shower
with her.
I'm kind of a shy person.
I'm a very big introvert andI'm very shy.
I remember we slept in the samebed but nothing happened.
I was just frozen.
Ilona (04:13):
How did you sleep?
Yeah, you were saving yourselffor a marriage.
And then she seduced you thatday In the morning, didn't she
say so, are you going to marryme now?
Chao (04:22):
By the end of the trip, like obviously we had slept
together and she had saidsomething along the lines of
like, oh, you know, you're goingto leave and you're only here
for your week of fun, and I'mjust like that's not true, right
?
It's not like I'm here to takeadvantage of you or anything.
Ilona (04:41):
But I remember she pulled the guilt card like wanted to
use me, sort of a deal.
What about now that we've slepttogether?
Chao (04:46):
When she says that.
I think it is kind ofmanipulative and trying to like
guilt you into, into expeditingsomething right.
Ilona (04:55):
Yeah, I remember through the divorce proceeding that came
up that you know she wasincentivized by learning about
your potential and, moreimportantly, a lot of women from
other countries they would loveto come to United States and
get a green card, and that'swhat happened with you too,
right?
Chao (05:12):
My ex-wife suggested that her friends you know take me out
and show me around.
So I went out with them andthey had asked me you know what
I did?
And I told them and what I wasgoing to do in the future.
And they had asked well, youknow, well, how much are you
going to make?
Mila (05:28):
So I told them so, like basically coming from a
non-family law perspective, thiswoman comes in, gets married to
you.
How long between the time youmet her and, like you, got
married?
Chao (05:40):
Probably around six months as well.
Mila (05:41):
So six months later, you're married to someone you
barely know.
Six months after that, you'regetting a divorce and then, two
years down the line, she isfighting you for your family's
properties.
There was so much manipulation.
Ilona (05:54):
She had you paying all her parents' expenses in
Colombia on your credit cards.
Chao (05:59):
When I got my job, you know, I said, hey, you know her
mom needed some surgery on hereyes.
You know they had like livingexpenses they weren't have.
They didn't have money for food.
So I said, you know, I'm just,I can issue credit cards under
my account, under their name,and we ended up shipping that
over to her parents and herparents used that for for that's
(06:19):
so kind of expenses.
Ilona (06:20):
And then I remember her father ended up flying to our
trial and testifying in courtthat they are entitled to the
homes that your mom owns.
Do you remember that?
Chao (06:34):
Honestly, it was just a constant mess.
It felt like that.
It was like a web of crap thatI could not, you know, get out
of Right.
I was just trapped in it.
Mila (06:43):
What did your mom think when you told her you were
planning to bring her over?
Chao (06:47):
my mom was fine with it.
Ilona (06:49):
I mean my, mom didn't know what she was going to be
dealing with my mom's beenthrough a lot, um, you know, and
I feel really bad.
She was very supportive of himthroughout the whole thing.
I mean, as the mother youobviously would feel bad that
your son got.
You know somebody's treatingyour child like this.
I mean you you're not a childanymore, but to her you always
will be.
And on top of it, they weretrying to rob her through court
by making claims to her downpayment that his mother worked
(07:12):
hard for through her life topurchase an asset.
They were trying to take itaway from your family, from your
mom, after just six months ofmarriage, just because of that
marriage license.
And it's like getting marriedin California gives you a bunch
of obligations like fiduciaryduties, disclosure of all assets
, community interest.
So you know, for those who haveassets, if you're bringing
(07:33):
someone from out of the country,get a prenup and, you know,
make it bulletproof and don'tadd their names to titles until
they've you know marriage isproven.
You know I actually printedcopies of the paperwork we filed
with the court a long time ago.
Chao (07:49):
Oh boy I know.
Ilona (07:50):
Let me just refresh some of your memory about some of the
facts.
Your wife handed you herpersonal journal on a pen and
said that to prove your love,you must give her the real
properties that you own withyour mom.
And she instructed you to writethat down.
And in shock and desperation,you did what she said to prove
(08:12):
your love and affection.
And we proved that in court.
You ended up winning.
You had to litigate thatbecause she made this claim that
she's entitled to it.
Here's what the note said, andthen we'll discuss it.
It here's what the note said,and then we'll discuss it.
I, zhao Qi, hereby bequeathunto my wife blank name, the
entirety of my undividedinterest of the property located
(08:34):
at, along with any accountsassociated with the property,
etc.
And it was.
She had to sign it and shedictated it to you.
What was that like to be takenadvantage of like this?
Chao (08:48):
Well, first of all, I'm sure people out there who's
listening to this, how can alawyer be that stupid?
For one, and you know,admittedly it was wanted her
(09:10):
parents to move out here andstay somewhere.
So they were going to stay inthat property and we had just
gotten that one, but we werefighting so much that I was
actually sleeping in the otherproperty, you know, in my car,
in the garage, because we didn'thave any furniture or anything
at the time.
You know I wasn't getting anyrest, it was just constant
bickering.
She would call me like 20 timesa day at work and if I answer
(09:35):
it's a fight, If I don't answerit's a fight.
You know, it's just so muchstuff to do, especially at a
very stressful job at the timetoo.
Mila (09:44):
I just want to say, like you said, it was stupid.
I don't think you were stupid.
I think you were in love.
And I think there's a bigdifference between that, because
you know, it sounds like youwere a good person with good
intentions.
And I think when you're in thatstate of mind, especially when
you're sleep deprived I've hadthree babies, I've had times
(10:05):
where I didn't sleep for weeksyour brain doesn't think
logically and you were probablyjust hoping like, maybe if I
just do this one thing, maybeeverything will change, maybe
everything will get better if Ijust do this one thing, and I
don't know.
I hope you don't blame yourselffor that or feel like you were
at fault for that, because itsounds like you were manipulated
beyond your control.
Ilona (10:27):
You know I did find the part in the judgment where which
was oh my God, it was one, two,three, four, five, six day
trial.
The court does not believerespondent's testimony.
That is her testimony thatpetitioner you, the petitioner's
mother intended these funds asa gift to her parents, but they
flew all the way here fromColombia and had the audacity to
(10:48):
try to French.
Take your mom's hard earnings.
Mila (10:53):
It sounds like the court, you know, did its justice.
But it's a shame, it's a damnshame that it took two years of
your life to get to that, to getto that.
Chao (11:04):
So I had a debit card associated with my mom's bank
account and when we separated,my ex-wife had taken out
everything from our condoincluding the card.
And she found the card and sheknows what PIN number I use for
my cards right, I just use thesame PIN number and she went
around different ATMs in SanDiego withdrawing money from my
(11:26):
mom's bank account and I justdon't understand how anyone can
do something like that, Karma isa bitch.
Ilona (11:36):
She brought a boyfriend a new boyfriend during her trial.
Right Was sitting and watchingthe trial.
He was wearing Gucci belt,louis Vuitton.
She always finds the rich guys.
Chao (11:53):
You had pointed this out that she was wearing like.
Ilona (11:54):
Louisitton shoes and that like you're like, like, look at
her shoes.
I'm like what came along poorand she was asking for all or
for saying I have no income, Ihave no money, I can't support
myself.
But then she's wearing fancystuff to court.
Chao (12:01):
I'm like well, you had asked me did I buy her those
shoes?
I'm like no, I don't know wherethose came from, you know?
Mila (12:07):
I do want to say something about your mom, because you
said you feel bad and I justwant to tell you from a mom's
perspective and I think Alonawill agree Like we are like
lions protecting our children.
So, even though she wentthrough a lot, I guarantee you
she wouldn't have it any otherway and her main priority is
that you're safe and away fromthis like disgusting fiend that
(12:28):
tried to destroy you.
Chao (12:29):
I mean that's that's great of her, but that doesn't take
away any of how I feel aboutabout it Right, like I carry
like an immense amount of guiltthat you know I basically Now
preventing her from enjoying herretirement and you know all the
emotional and kind of financialissues that we have these days
(12:53):
is a direct consequence of mydecision to get involved.
Mila (12:56):
You were a victim.
You did not make a decisionbecause you weren't informed.
You can't make a decision ifyou don't know the facts.
So please stop blaming yourself, because it's not your fault.
Ilona (13:05):
Let me just make you feel better about this whole thing,
about her wasting her retirement, the fact that you kept your
properties, which you wereentitled to, but you had to
fight for it, and you had themsince a long time ago.
In California real estateappreciated a lot.
So whatever was spent onlitigation, I'm sure that in
terms of appreciation relativeto your loan, that has all been
(13:28):
made up.
So your mom, if she want torefinance or pull a line of
credit or anything else, I thinkis still going to be better off
today than back then because ofthe market.
Mila (13:38):
So really like I think from my perspective again not
having practiced in family lawthe lesson here is get a fucking
prenup.
Everyone else who's out thereright now in similar situations,
where they are in love, havinggreat intentions, like really
believing in the person they'remarrying, like don't trust.
Get a prenup right, like that'sIn California divorce is
(13:59):
expensive.
Ilona (14:00):
It's so easy to go get a marriage license for I don't
know 20 bucks at a cost nowadays, but it's going to cost you
hundreds of thousands of dollarsand people can make up bullshit
claims and raise them in courtand, unlike in civil court,
where you can file a motion forsummary or judgment, demur get
rid of claims that aren'tsupported by evidence, in family
(14:20):
court you cannot get rid of anyclaims until you get to trial.
You're forced to go throughwith it and you have a choice to
either have a lawyer help youor do it alone.
Chao (14:30):
Yeah, I think that was the biggest shock going into family
court is that ultimately it'slike a he said, she said,
argument right, and they cancome up with any sort of
arguments.
Ilona (14:43):
So she worked hard at trying to, you know, make her
strengthen her connections withpotential witnesses, incentivize
them as well to come and lie incourt and unfortunately, you
know, people often lie in familycourt.
District attorney's officedoesn't prosecute people for
perjuring themselves in familycourt.
Mila (15:05):
And that's always like my big issue with the American
judicial system.
I love the American judicialsystem.
I think it's great.
I think you know theprotections we have for people
are amazing.
But then it's always thebalance of like letting people
have their day in court, lettingpeople be heard, making sure
everyone has their due process,but is it too much?
Is it too much Because at theend of the day, you have very
(15:27):
costly services and you knoweveryone sues everyone.
My grandma always says likebecause we're from russia, and
she's always like half of theselawsuits would be arrested in
russia for fraud, because it'ssuch bullshit and she's right
and most other countries like itdoes not fly.
Chao (15:46):
I mean for me.
It's also a shock that she goesaround painting this image of
me as, like this horrible personthat will do anything within my
power to you know, hurt herright and people believe her.
In fact, I've lost friends overthis because she had help.
Mila (16:06):
I've spent 20 minutes with you and I can't imagine anyone
would believe that no, but shemanipulative.
Ilona (16:11):
people do that.
Chao (16:12):
And at the time, actually, regarding the testimony in
court, there was an instancewhere she had brought our
handyman right, who she wasliving with at the time, and,
yeah, he had said that I wasn'tproviding them any money.
And you had, like,cross-examined him and they
(16:33):
talked.
Ilona (16:34):
Somehow you got him to admit that yeah the court made a
specific finding that they findmr isaac I'm not gonna say his
last name his testimony notcredible.
Is that the handyman?
Chao (16:45):
yeah, that's a handyman, because alona just kind of like
gripped into him because he hadpaid for like a vacation for her
to go to like puerto rico orsomething she worked, everybody
from handyman to all the wayyeah, if you're a man, she
worked it and I guess she endedup giving her engagement ring to
him.
Ilona (17:02):
There's one thing about your case that I still remember.
That's almost unbelievable, butit was believable while you
were living through it, becauseshe was that manipulative.
She told you that she isallergic to condoms, then she
was allergic to sperm and thenshe wanted you to get a
(17:23):
vasectomy.
Chao (17:24):
She had talked about how her ex-boyfriend got a vasectomy
quote unquote for her, becauseyou know she's allergic to
taking birth control pills.
She's like, you know, did youever think about, you know, just
getting a vasectomy because itwould make things easier?
And I said, you know that'skind of.
I said I remember like saying,don't you think that's kind of
(17:46):
like manipulative, like whywould you want me to change?
As time went on, you know, shejust kind of lost it and she
just said it's like word forword you know you need to get
that fucking surgery, I'm neverhaving sex with you again.
And like, stomped out of theroom and went to go sleep on the
couch.
I'm like I don't know wherethis is coming from.
I said, you know, I know I'llget the surgery, but then, like
(18:08):
later on she'll message me.
It's like, oh, you know, I justwant you to do it only if
you're comfortable.
Ilona (18:13):
But like behind the scenes, she was pressuring you
and didn't she actually make youdo it like a week into your
marriage, once you got married?
Chao (18:21):
Yeah, so I ended up getting the surgery a week like
after we got married.
Ilona (18:25):
And you wouldn't do it but for pressuring you right.
Chao (18:28):
Pretty much, yeah.
I mean I wouldn't say like shemade me do it right, Because I
can still act out of my own freewill.
Mila (18:34):
And it sounds like you had great intentions.
I mean, I have two boys and mybiggest fear because I think the
biggest decision you make inlife is who you end up spending
your life with, and it is whenyou're a good person it's such a
slippery slope to get screwed.
But it sounds like you hadgreat intentions.
You wanted to give your all andshare your life with someone
(18:56):
and build a family and you justended up, unfortunately,
stepping into a trap.
Ilona (19:02):
So what advice would you give to someone who may find
themselves in a similarsituation?
Chao (19:06):
Well, first of all, I hope no one's ever in a situation
like this.
It's not a good feeling to haveand I don't wish that on
anybody.
I think definitely take thingsat your own pace.
Don't get pressured intospeeding things up just because
one person wants to Do your duediligence.
One person wants to do your duediligence.
(19:27):
You know, if you look them upon court records and they have
multiple filings against them,that's probably not a good sign.
You know she had litigationagainst, I think, two of her
tenants, then me, then thedoctor that she tried to get
fired from his job because theyhad met, met on tinder and um,
and he wanted to separate fromher and she lost it and started,
(19:51):
you know, stalking him at workand at his home and stuff.
And I mean you know there'sstuff like how did that guy
reach out to you.
Ilona (20:01):
And how did that guy reach out to you?
Chao (20:02):
it was the last day of work at my last law firm that I
worked at and I was literallyabout to shut everything down
and I had an email in my inboxfrom somebody.
I was like what is this?
I thought it was just spamemails.
I opened it and the email readsomething like hi Chow, you
don't know me, but this isurgent, please call me at this
(20:24):
number.
So I call him Hi, yeah, I'mChow.
And then he's like yeah, youknow, you don't know me.
But um, long story short, I hadmet your ex-wife on tinder.
We had been going out, for Ithink they were going out for
like three months, maybe half ayear at the time, and things
didn't work out.
I wanted to separate from her.
(20:45):
But then she started, you know,she kind of just lost it and
she was calling his job.
She called his supervisor athis work saying that he was
violating some HIPAA laws bydivulging, you know,
confidential patient informationto her.
But and then she had like,called his mom in the middle of
(21:07):
the night to yell at her andcall her an old hag, and she was
stalking him at his house andall this, all this crazy stuff,
and he was just uh, he justdidn't know what to do or who to
turn to, and kind of similarstory with with the tenants that
she had.
You know, eventually they allfind their way to me somehow.
Ilona (21:27):
It still hurts.
You know it still hurts.
What do you think could makethat pain go away?
Chao (21:33):
It's just something that you have to accept as part of
who you are, and it's anexperience, good or bad.
I think you try to find thegood from it and you try to
learn from the bad, the goodfrom it and you try to learn
from the bad, and you know justif you you had asked you you
(21:53):
know what you can do if you findyourself in these situations
and if you are and you've gottenpast one, or you've had been in
a series of of poorrelationships.
I think a lot of it isdependent on you to take a look
at yourself and figure out whatdraws you to these relationships
and why you're attracted topeople like this.
You just have to be careful outthere and not be so naive to
(22:16):
think that everybody in theworld has the best intentions
for you.
Ilona (22:20):
When you meet people, you don't right away assume they
have a personality disorder.
You start seeing red flags.
Then you get an argument.
Some people may draw you inbecause they can be charming and
they're good at making up andgoing overboard.
I mean, I personally wasmarried for four months.
We're lawyers, we're smart.
It doesn't matter how smart youare when it comes to matters of
(22:42):
heart.
We'll all make mistakes and wecan be fooled by people who you
know are just better at playingyou.
So you know, I also fell forsomeone who I thought was
charming.
I also got married quickbecause I'm like, okay, I waited
, you know, a long time.
So here he comes and then endedup being a nightmare for me.
But as a divorce attorney, Isaw the red flags.
(23:05):
I saw them and I also didn't doanything about them for a while
.
I just, you know, some thingswere comfortable and I just
stayed in it.
And then I got married reallyfast, within a couple of months
of meeting him too, and mymarriage then terminated fast
because he was physicallyabusive to me and I knew that,
if you know, it happens once ortwice that, um, it will continue
(23:28):
happening.
We ended up getting married.
I got the prenup, although atthat time I was, he was making
more money than I did, but Istill wanted a prenup because I
know that no matter how shortthe marriage is, it can cost you
a lot of money and a lot ofstress.
He jumped me and choked me,like to the point where I
thought I'm not going to get tosay bye to my mom.
(23:50):
I just remember thinking thisis what happens, like when you
die.
He let go at some point and I,you know, ran, called the police
, like my neck was all red, butI didn't want to press charges
against him because he was adoctor.
You know I filed for divorceshortly thereafter.
This happened on March 31st2016.
I filed for divorce on April1st.
(24:11):
I ended up paying him just tomake this divorce go away
although I probably legallydidn't owe him anything because
I didn't want to go through whatyou went through.
So my advice to people is ifthere is any domestic violence I
know you were a victim ofdomestic violence, because
domestic violence comes in manyforms.
It's emotional abuse, puttingsomeone down, controlling them,
(24:32):
isolating them from family andfriends.
It's not just physical abuse,and men are often victims of
domestic violence as well, likeyou were, because you did get a
restraining order against her.
But they're less likely to comeforward because it's more
embarrassing for men to go andfile it against women.
It's more frequent where it'sdone the other way around.
Chao (24:54):
After I'd gone through this, I went online to look for
support groups that maybe Icould relate to or could provide
some sort of comfort to mecitizens who go through the same
type of thing, where you knowthey have somebody from a
foreign country coming in whoseintentions are to ultimately get
(25:17):
a green card, with no actualintention to really stay in a
relationship, and what they dois they will incite some sort of
reaction out of the person andthen they'll use that reaction
as a means to file a restrainingorder or a lawsuit against them
(25:37):
, saying that they've beenabused and, through certain acts
within the immigration system,they're able to pursue their own
path towards immigration withinthe United States.
And at the time I wasvolunteering for a pro bono
legal immigration clinic here inSan Diego called Casa Cornelia,
of which I did a lot of workfor, and throughout my
(26:01):
experiences in law school andwithin my law firm, I did a lot
of work trying to help out, youknow, particularly women of
domestic violence, and it just,you know, really made me
question what I was doingbecause I thought, hey, you know
, if my ex-wife can do and saysome of these things, you know,
(26:22):
maybe some of my clients don'thave the best intentions and I
think that's really hurtfulbecause as an attorney you know
you want to do what's best foryour client and to advocate for
them.
So when you kind of have thatdoubt in your mind it's really
difficult to carry on that work.
And I think it's reallyunfortunate because these laws
are made to protect people realvictims but unfortunately by
(26:47):
having these protections itallows people with malintentions
to come in and take advantageof the system and even clog up
the system and make it so wherereal victims don't even have an
avenue towards the justice orhelp that they need.
Ilona (27:04):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I mean that is absolutely true.
I did an immigration internshipa long time ago and I helped
victims of domestic violence andhelped them file for U visas.
In this case, in myrecollection, and that was like
20 years ago, I did this.
You probably have.
More recent knowledge is thatif you're married to a US
citizen for three years, you canget a permanent green card and
(27:25):
then, if you're married to fiveyears, you can file for
citizenship without the UScitizen helping you file it.
But if someone doesn't want tobe committed to a marriage for
three years to five years, thenthe way to get documents if they
don't have sincere intentionsand are here to just get
(27:49):
legalized in a country is tofake a domestic violence
incident, record them like whathappened to you, set you up and
then file for restraining orderand use that with the federal
authorities to claim you're avictim of domestic violence.
Chao (28:05):
I think you just have to have a higher standard, like you
said in court, about tellingthe truth and being able to
provide evidence to back that up, and that's another thing that
I think maybe I could have donebetter was keep documentation of
stuff before she was able to,you know, take my phone and
throw it away, basically.
Ilona (28:23):
You know, another thing that happened to you that
tarnished your reputationunjustly was that someone like
your ex-wife went on socialmedia and proclaimed to be a
victim of domestic violence,making false accusations, you
know, ruining your reputation,and people that were your
friends turn away from you.
Can you talk more about that?
Chao (28:43):
Yeah, I think it goes to just back to kind of her ability
to spin the story and to bemanipulative, right?
For instance, her ability tospin the story and to be
manipulative, right?
For instance, on InternationalWomen's Day this was in March,
while we were still married shehad come up to me and said hey,
you know, do you know what todayis?
I'm like no, and this is earlyin the morning and I'm planning
(29:04):
on going to work.
She's like, oh, it'sInternational Women's Day.
I'm like, oh, yeah, I mean Iknew that, but you know.
I asked her why.
And she's like well, do youhave anything planned?
I said, you know, blank face,no, I didn't have anything
planned.
I'm like was there somethingyou wanted to do?
And she said well, you know, inmy country it's a very
(29:31):
important day where all the guystake, you know, buy flowers for
their girlfriends and take themout to nice dinners and stuff.
And I said, oh, I mean, that'sfine, like we can go out to
dinner.
So when I got to the office,the first thing I did was call
in for uh, call in um a flowershop to get her like a bouquet.
I made a reservation at a nicerestaurant for us to go to
dinner and I told her it's like,hey, you know we're gonna go
here and um, and then shestarted responding on whatsapp.
(29:51):
It's like no, I just want youto come home early.
All I care about is spendingtime with you and all the sweet
stuff.
And I'm like, okay, but you know, I already made the reservation
, we're going.
You know, like I meant it aslike a let's go, we already, you
know, we already settled forthis.
But the way that she presentedit she ended up posting a
screenshot, I think, onInstagram online, like that it
(30:14):
was that I was forcing her to goto this night's dinner and all
she wanted was to spend timewith me.
And the responses to that werelike, oh, this is such a dumb,
rich Chinese guy.
He doesn't know what he has andstuff.
And that's very hurtful,because I was just trying to
give her what she asked for,right, and what they don't know
is.
I did come home early that dayto spend time with her and I
(30:35):
brought her the flowers and shesaid, well, we don't need to go
to the dinner.
I said, that's fine, we cancancel the dinner, but the
minute I get home, you know, shejust ignores me and if I try to
do anything, right, like she'djust been on YouTube all day
looking at makeup videos orwhatever it is that she did all
day and and I, you know, I wouldtry to talk to her and she
(30:57):
wouldn't say anything to me.
So if I open up my computer toplay a video game or something,
she'd get very angry and she'dsuddenly, just, you know, slam
her laptop closed, turn off thelight, and I'm and I'm just like
, and if I stay on the computer,then she rolls over and, like,
screams at me like you know why,why can't you let me?
(31:17):
You can't?
You see I'm trying to sleephere, you know why can't you let
me rest?
You know, and this is stuffthat I had to deal with on a
daily basis so nothing wouldmake her happy with you.
Ilona (31:27):
But ultimately it seems like things that are posted on
social media are taken out ofcontext to support the story
she's trying to portray, put youin a negative light.
So I think people need to beaware that whatever is posted,
you really have to hear bothsides of the story, and often
text messages.
If you don't see the rest ofthe story can be taken out of
(31:49):
context.
Same thing with videos andother evidence that may be
presented in court.
You know those who are going totry to set you up will take a
piece of video or recording thatmay be helpful to them and not
show the rest of the contextwhere they may have done
something or said something toset this off.
And I recall we had this issueduring discovery, when she had
(32:10):
all the evidence but shewouldn't provide it, and you
also mentioned, and you remindedme, that to embarrass you in
the court proceeding, she triedto submit naked photographs of
you in discovery.
Chao (32:22):
Yeah, she basically took all the private photographs of
me that she had taken or that Ihad provided to her, and she
provided it to your law firm,and your poor associate had to
be traumatized by by all of that.
Ilona (32:38):
I don't remember seeing them, so we're okay.
Chao (32:41):
I mean, they're out there, I guess, somewhere on your
server, so hopefully at somepoint they can be deleted.
But but yeah, I just felt likea lot of what she did was trying
, you know, after we hadseparated.
Ilona (32:53):
We didn't ask for that, she just threw it in to you know
?
Embarrass you.
Chao (32:57):
Yeah, I felt like she just wanted to embarrass me in front
of people, and that was afterwe separated, and before we
separated she just tried to, youknow, tease me and belittle me
and make me feel like I hadnobody in the world that I could
turn to for help.
Ilona (33:13):
I'm sorry men, stay away from women like that, please,
and if you're not sure, come seea lawyer, even if you're not
getting married.
You know, when I was young Iused to love watching Jerry
Springer.
It was very exciting to me.
I would love that show, and Iused to love watching Maury
Povich and Ricky Lake, and I getit all now in practicing family
law, and it's always differentStuff you cannot make up.
(33:34):
You don't need to script it,it's just like real life stories
, but everything that you canthink of happens.
Chao (33:42):
That's what I think.
I think my story about this isstranger than fiction, right?
I just don't know how you canmake something up like this.
And yeah, like another thingshe said.
A lot was like oh, you know,none of your friends care about
you.
I'm the only person that caresabout you, like they're just
interested because of your moneyor whatever.
(34:04):
There was a lot of that goingon, you know, and I did get
isolated a lot from my friends,but definitely, you know, stick
to your friends, because theyhave and family.
And family.
Yeah, I'm very fortunate inthat I have a very, very
tight-knit and supportivefriends group here now that I've
kind of built up after the fact.
But at the time, you know, Ihad just moved back to San Diego
(34:26):
from LA and I didn't haveanybody really to talk to about
this stuff.
I didn't have anybody really totalk to about this stuff.
But now that I do, you know, Ithink you got to find people
that you know are there,trustworthy, that you can lean
on, because they'll hopefullygive it to you straight if you
are in a situation like this.
Ilona (34:42):
I think therapy also helps, like after my experience,
because I always thought, ok,I'm strong, I'm resilient, but
what happened, like in my shortrelationship, still impacted me
and I was, you know, I wasdating for the next two years
and I was like intentionallypushing guys away, which would
be a bitch, I think, just onpurpose to see how far I can
(35:04):
push it while they still want me.
And then I met this one guy andI'm still friends with.
His name was Dennis and he saidI went out with him like nine
times and then he was reallynice, we got along.
But then I was just saying meanthings to him like oh, you're
too short, I don't want to havekids with you, and like you name
it, I was not nice and he saidalone, I think you're doing all
this on purpose, like I've beenthrough this before.
You should go see a therapist.
(35:25):
And he gave me a phone numberfor a therapist.
So eventually it bothered meenough that I called the
therapist that he recommendedand that was the best thing that
I've done for myself and Ithink it makes it.
I went to her for four monthsand I was hungry for it, like my
soul and my spark away, liketelling me I'm bad and like
calling me names and just like.
Everything was very negative.
(35:46):
It was taken away from who Iwas and all I was resisting it
and my subconscious has impactedme.
So I wanted to get my normalself back, like, and so I went
(36:07):
there for months.
I read all the books.
She told me about verbal abuse,because you know he was
verbally abusive and she didEMDR.
It was very effective.
They do it for cops, like whenpolice officers shoot somebody
for the first time and you knowthey don't want to hold a gun
anymore.
I think it will be very helpfulto many people, including
(36:28):
yourself and those who are goingthrough a divorce.
What you do is you relive thetraumatic moments that are still
stuck in your mind and whathappens is you get desensitized
to it.
So, for example, what she didfor me she had me close my eyes
and then you know and I rememberI would tell her, yeah, I would
walk through the door and hewould be looking at his watch
like seven o'clock, 30 out of 30, you know, like failure, like
(36:50):
go to your room, like you know,just like yelling at me and like
you really live the moment andthen magically.
Somehow this works, that youhave like zero stress, zero
anxiety, zero negative feelings,like it just goes away.
Whatever she did, the fourmonths and the books that she
gave me helped me a lot.
Being miserable with someoneand subject to their demands and
(37:14):
making someone else happysometimes it's just better to be
alone.
So if you can't find the rightpartner, just enjoy your life.
There's so much to enjoy inthis world.
Mila (37:22):
It has been amazing hearing your story.
I mean it sounds like you wentthrough a lot.
Again, I don't have a familylaw perspective on this, I
wasn't part of the trial or thelitigation but it sounds like
you were put through the wringer.
But it sounds like you alsomade it out alive and stronger.
I always say you can't controlwhat happens to you, but you can
(37:45):
control your reaction to it andI'm sure in the moment it
didn't feel like your reactionwas great, but you're sitting
here before us now stronger,better, able to talk about it
with just such dignity and grace.
So I appreciate your time andreally appreciate you sharing
your story with us.
It can't be easy, and I thinkthat this episode will really be
(38:12):
hope for someone who may begoing through toxicity now or
through a heavy litigation stageof someone else who maybe
treated them wrong or is suingthem for things that they're not
entitled to, that they too willcome out of it alive, better,
stronger, with lessons learned.
Chao (38:33):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me and for sure, you
know, I think it's important torealize that we're not alone and
, for instance, when I got thatcall from the, from the doctor,
right like I felt somewhatvindicated and but it's always a
process and you never getcomfortable, comfortable with it
, because it's like I said,there's going to be people out
(38:55):
there who just think I'm just aterrible person and you just
have to accept that because youcan't really please anybody.
But the people you want toplease are, you know, your
friends and family, and as longas they love you, I think that's
all that really matters.
Mila (39:07):
I always say is hating bitches aren't and happy bitches
aren't hatin'.
Chao (39:14):
I don't know about that saying, but sure Sounds good to
me.
Ilona (39:19):
And that's it for today's episode of the Glamorous Grind.
We hope you enjoyed diving intoChow's story a tale of
resilience, lessons learned andtwists that only life can
deliver.
Mila (39:29):
Next week we are turning up the drama with a new guest
who found themselves at theheart of a legal scandal and
came out stronger than ever.
Ilona (39:38):
Remember new episodes drop every Tuesday, so mark your
calendars.
Mila (39:42):
Don't forget to hit subscribe, leave us a glowing
review and share the glam withyour friends.
It's your support that's goingto keep the grind going strong.
Ilona (39:51):
Stay confident, stay bold and we'll see you next week on
the Glamrs Grind.
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