August 5, 2025 • 24 mins
When passion meets purpose, extraordinary results follow. Attorney Eric Ganci embodies this principle in every aspect of his multifaceted career—from drummer to DUI defense attorney to brain injury specialist. His journey reveals a powerful truth: authenticity isn't just personally fulfilling it's professionally advantageous.
Eric's signature bow ties aren't just fashion statements but symbols of his commitment to bringing his whole self to his work. "Lean into who you are as a person, then jurors respond well," he explains, sharing how this philosophy has contributed to his impressive record of 72 trial victories. Rather than compartmentalizing his creative side, Eric draws strength from the intersection of his musical background and legal expertise, recognizing that both require mastery of technical foundations before artistic expression can flourish.
What truly sets Eric apart is his relentless pursuit of understanding. After witnessing a family member's struggle with brain injury, he channeled that personal connection into professional expertise. His commitment runs so deep that he voluntarily undergoes the same neuropsychological testing as his clients to fully comprehend their experiences. This level of dedication transforms typical attorney-client relationships into profound connections built on genuine empathy and advocacy.
For those feeling pressured to hide parts of themselves professionally, Eric offers liberating perspective. He demonstrates that our seemingly disparate passions often enhance rather than diminish our effectiveness. The art that makes him a musician strengthens his storytelling in court; the precision required in law enhances his creativity in music. This integration creates something uniquely powerful that clients recognize and respect.
Whether you're considering a career pivot or struggling to reconcile different aspects of your identity, Eric's story serves as permission to embrace your authentic complexity. Your uniqueness isn't something to suppress—it's your greatest professional asset. Ready to stop hiding your edge and start leveraging it? This conversation might just change how you define success.
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🎙️ Hosts: Ilona Antonyan & Mila Arutunian
📲 Follow us on IG: @glamorousgrindpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mila (00:00):
What is the secret to success?
And he said passion.
Eric (00:03):
When you really love something and you want to dive
into it, then you just figureeverything out as soon as you
can.
Mila (00:08):
Today's episode is all about following your passion.
If you are passionate in whatyou do, you will undoubtedly
become successful at it.
Ilona (00:17):
Welcome to the Glamorous Grind where grit meets glamour
and ambition always finds aspotlight.
Mila (00:22):
Seems like everything you do.
You just put your heart andsoul into it.
Eric (00:26):
That's very important to me to be able to tell the
client's story.
Ilona (00:28):
We're sitting down with a brilliant and bold Eric Gonci,
a drummer, a former DUI trialattorney with 72 trials under
his belt and now a personalinjury powerhouse focusing on
brain injury cases.
Eric (00:40):
I have a passion for that.
I have a family member whounfortunately went through a
really gnarly brain injury.
Mila (00:46):
Maybe you thought of switching lanes or following
multiple passions, but weren'tready to take the leap.
This episode might just havesome answers for you.
Ilona (01:04):
All right, Eric.
Well, thanks for being here andwearing a beautiful bow tie.
I love your bow tie.
Eric (01:08):
What's the?
Ilona (01:09):
secret behind that.
Eric (01:11):
Behind the bow ties.
Yes, it was born out of stress.
I thought this is such astressful job as you both know
as fantastic lawyers and triallawyers and I was doing a
necktie for God the first nineor ten years and I thought I
want to just enjoy somethingthat's just a little bit
different.
So I started doing the bow tiesand then but I wasn't going to
(01:31):
do clip-on bow ties becausepeople ask me all the time, oh
is that tied?
Which I think is a ridiculousquestion to be asked.
So I just started wearing them.
It took me years before I wouldwear them before a jury, but I
really enjoyed all the variousbow ties that I have, and even
my mom has made me some bow ties, which is super cool, so it's
something I really enjoy.
Mila (01:50):
And when I saw your bow ties, my first thought was like
that is very brave, that's abrave fashion statement, right?
Because, like, not everyonecould pull that off and to me it
immediately signaled that youcame off as like so confident,
so knowing what you're doing,and you wore that bow tie with
such pride.
It told me immediately that youare not afraid to be your
(02:12):
authentic self, no matter whatanyone thinks.
Eric (02:15):
Yeah.
Ilona (02:15):
And my impression, now that you asked for it was wow,
that bow tie is big, becausenormally big bow ties are
smaller, like I've seen somejudges wear them and others, but
yours like stands out and it'sperfectly done, so I wouldn't be
surprised why people think it'spre-made.
To me it's like go big or gohome.
Eric (02:31):
Yeah, I think that, especially having done a lot of
jury trials jurors, their BSmeters are like really on all
the time Because they havenothing to do but just sit there
and just watch the story unfoldand the movie unfold before
them.
So they do a lot of like.
I've won trials before becausethe jurors like my cufflinks and
I was like what do you thinkabout the facts?
They're like yeah, the factswere fine, we just love your
(02:52):
cufflinks.
Okay, great, I mean, I won thetrial, so that's good.
The bow tie thing, it's, I justlike it.
Lean into who you are as aperson, then jurors respond well
and other people generallyrespond well to you.
If you're just being a verytrue version of yourself, as
soon as you're trying to likefake it in some way, shape or
form, people don't like to bearound that.
(03:13):
But then once you feelcomfortable with what you're
doing, then it just comes offthat way and it's just something
that you know I enjoy.
Ilona (03:20):
So how many years have you been an attorney now?
Eric (03:22):
16 years I was a teacher before I became a lawyer, and so
then people so many times ask,well, how did you go from
teaching to being a lawyer?
To which I respond that there'sso much that is the law that is
teaching.
So you know like we're teachingour clients, we're teaching
judges, we're teaching jurors,we're teaching opposing counsel,
we're teaching on this podcast.
You know like there's so muchcrossover from teaching to being
(03:44):
a lawyer.
Plus, I just wanted to learnmore about the world because I
was teaching and I was a musicband director and I felt very
confident in that.
But there's just so much morewith the law that you just get
to learn so much about the world.
Ilona (03:57):
After you finished law school, what was your first job?
Eric (03:59):
So right out of law school I started my own firm.
A lot of people told me that'scrazy, you can't do that, you
don't know enough, and that isvery true.
For lots of lawyers.
It can be a very scary thing todo.
When you really love somethingand you want to dive into it,
then you just figure everythingout as soon as you can.
And so I was, you know, gettingon cases and I was making money
and then, instead of going outand buying, you know, fancy cars
(04:20):
and fancy houses and that kindof stuff, I would just keep
reinvesting it into myself, andthen that allowed me just to
keep knowing more and more andmore.
So I ran my own business for 12years doing exclusively DUI
cases DUI defense cases for 12years.
Mila (04:35):
One of the things that really strikes me about you and
it's very rare to me is justconstant growth mindset.
And I heard this quote actuallyyesterday and someone was asked
what is the secret to successand he said passion.
Said anything else, nope, justpassion.
If you are passionate in whatyou do, you will undoubtedly
(04:57):
become successful at it.
And then there was anotherthing I was listening to today
actually because I'm also likealways learning and it was a
podcast about neuroscience.
And one of the things theytouched on is like if you're
lazy, maybe it's because youdon't find purpose in what you
do, like there is a reasonbehind everything.
(05:18):
And one thing I love about youis like when you find something
you love, you just go all in.
Now it's time for the audienceQ&A.
So here's the listener question.
I'm a law student who's also apainter.
I'm worried I won't be takenseriously if I show that side of
myself professionally.
Did you ever feel pressure tohide your creative side?
Eric (05:41):
I identify very much as a drummer and as a musician side.
I identify very much as adrummer and as a musician, but
that also comes connected withidentifying as someone who just
cares a lot about being good atsomething and that's you know
being.
I wanted to be a good drummerand a musician.
Anything that I want to do thatI really love.
I want to learn everythingabout it and I want to learn all
(06:02):
the foundations about it, sothen I can then play with the
art that comes from thefoundation.
So I identify very much assomeone who cares a lot about
foundational stuff and art.
What a lot of people don't thinkabout, maybe because they
haven't had the experience withit, is that we think lawyers and
you think reading lots of booksand like needed to know all
(06:23):
this information, knowing thelaw.
And then there is being a triallawyer, which very much is
knowing the law and all thatkind of stuff.
But it's also knowing how to bea storyteller, knowing how to
like communicate with people,knowing how to listen a lot.
It's knowing how to be like theproducer and the director of
like a movie or a stage play.
So it's and this is all getsback to like the foundational
stuff that there's.
There's an art to all of thisthat we're doing.
(06:46):
But then the more that I canfocus on having the foundational
stuff, then when I go in andI'm doing a trial, I don't need
to worry, hopefully, as muchabout the foundational like am I
standing in the right space, amI, and talking with a like loud
enough courtroom voice?
And then I know that I'm goingto have strong foundations
because I've worked on that.
So then hopefully it'ssecondary nature.
So then that allows me to thenjust be more calm, connected
(07:09):
with the jurors and then justallow more space for what the
art could happen in the trial.
If it's like a short trial likeyou know, three to four days
I've done lots of those Is it alonger trial, like a few weeks,
and there's like an art to thetrial and how are people
receiving information?
There's an art to all of thisstuff.
(07:30):
So that's where foundation andbeing a lawyer, like left brain
lawyer, right brain lawyer, likehow all this stuff comes
together.
Ilona (07:38):
So you know, there's obviously a book Art of War.
If it was the art of trial,what would be your top three
tips?
Eric (07:47):
I do love the art of war very, very much.
Be prepared, listen.
And the trial is not about you,the lawyer.
So many lawyers think that thetrial is about the lawyer and
maybe the first 20 trials I wasthinking like, wow, this is
really about me and that's notthe case.
You're a part of it, you'reproducing and you're directing
the movie, but you need to getout of the way.
(08:08):
So the trial is not about you.
And as soon as lawyers try toget many times try to interject
themselves into the story, thejurors they don't want to hear
that.
They don't trust lawyersgenerally for many good reasons.
Many times they want to hearlike what's the story that's
happening?
Like let's have the witnessessay like what's happening?
So that would be the last one.
Ilona (08:28):
You now practice personal injury, and you have been doing
that five years.
Okay, um, what do youspecialize in?
Eric (08:35):
So I specialize in doing brain injury cases.
I have a passion for that.
I have a family member whounfortunately went through a
really gnarly brain injury, andso it's also an emerging science
.
There's like lots of knowns,there's lots of unknowns with
that, so it's a way for me justto try to understand it so I can
be present with my family,understand and give honest
(09:04):
information in a trial settingabout what is like, what's
happening with this brain injuryand that's and there's lots.
I mean brain injury is like sucha wide range and it could be
like how the person is acting,like what part of their head was
hit, what part of the brain isaffected.
But then it's also like theneuroimaging side of it Cause,
for an example, like we haveMRIs, but then we also have DTIs
, which is just another way toimage the brain, and that is a
(09:25):
newer or some people think thatit's a newer technology that's
been around for a while, butdoes that evidence come in as
trial?
So then there is the sciencebehind what is DTI, mris, and
how do we get that in front of ajudge for the judge to
understand?
This is what the objectivescience is behind it and what
side is like for me.
I've seen so many defenselawyers or defense industry
(09:47):
people try to skew like what thetrue science behind of a DTI is
, and so then you have tounderstand what it is so that
you can then express it to saylike no, what they're saying is
wrong, they're relying on thesearticles.
What the true information is,this, and then be persuasive
with that to a judge, to let theevidence in and to the jury.
Mila (10:08):
Brain injuries are so scientific.
I know when I was working onthe defense side PI, we had a
brain injury case and we reallyhad to learn all of the science
behind it.
And I always find itastonishing because any other
injury you can see and the braininjury cases are the only
(10:28):
injuries where you cannot seethem, touch them.
They are all internal and youhave to look at a person's
behavior and use experts anddoctors to assess the extent of
the injuries.
And the problem with that isespecially in a lawsuit people
can lie and so it's tough.
Ilona (10:49):
I mean, if you keep going to a doctor and you have memory
loss and things get worsenormally and become more
permanent after a year, it'seasier to document.
It's just that you need to havedocumented treatment plan to
show how your symptoms developover time, right?
Eric (11:05):
It's all of these things.
It could be all of this stuff.
And I've had cases where myclient was, where the defense
was arguing like hey, thisperson's a liar.
And I've had cases, too, whereit was the plaintiff and, to be
honest, like the plaintiff wastrying to like distance
themselves from having a braininjury, was not being really
honest with themselves aboutwhat they had.
(11:26):
And the reality with that,which is really sad, is that
like this I'm thinking of oneperson in particular just
because it's a more recent caseis that this person doesn't want
to have to live with a braininjury.
Like he understands what hewent through as a car crash case
and how sad and frustrating itis for him because he was such a
high performer at work, andthen to know that he's having
all these issues now and hedoesn't want to admit that and
(11:48):
so that becomes a piece of thecase.
And then the defense says he'slying.
And that's not always, you know, maybe sometimes there are
certainly people that lie.
You know, in our industry noshocker, there are people that
lie, but sometimes it's just asad reality of what the person
like, what, what their life isright now, and it is very
(12:08):
technical, but then it can alsojust be so plain, yeah, and
present.
And that's where, like beforeand after, witnesses on brain
injury cases are so important,because you can have all the
doctors and the doctors aregoing to say, you know various
things, but then just havingsomeone that knows them to be
like this is what they were likebefore, this is what they're
like now, totally different.
(12:28):
Lots that goes into that.
Mila (12:31):
There is one thing that I recall learning about, and maybe
you know the exact term for it,but it's when a plaintiff and
especially in a brain injurycase and maybe you know the
exact term for it, but it's whena plaintiff, and especially in
a brain injury case is inlitigation and is being seen by
doctors.
Right, because once you putyour psychological state at
issue, the defense side can comein and have their doctors, you
(12:52):
know, interview you and do allof these awful tests and then
the plaintiff starts havingexacerbated symptoms.
Then you have to have expertsfrom the defense side who are
coming and saying these symptomsare actually from the
litigation and being a plaintiffand hearing about what a victim
they are, and not from thebrain injury.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Eric (13:15):
Sure, it's a lot so.
I'll try to keep it short,because there's a lot to get in
with that.
There actually is that approachthat defense lawyers take.
They're saying you're in thislitigation and if you're
experiencing these frustrationsor these symptoms, it's not
because of the brain injury,it's just because you're simply
stressed and going through thislitigation.
(13:36):
Or aha, we caught you.
You're acting this way becauseyou're simply stressed and going
through the litigation or howwe caught you.
You're acting this way becauseyou're trying to lie your way
through.
This is what the argument is,and that's also false too.
That's what they try to argue.
There's also a lot ofneuropsychological testing
that's done, and I've beenthrough a day of doing
neuropsych testing.
Mila (13:54):
On yourself On myself yes.
Eric (13:56):
Wow, yeah, Because so much of what I want to do that if
I'm going to try to arguesomething or understand the
objective science, I want to gothrough a very true version of
like what, what it.
So I've been through and donethe testing and it was like
hours long.
There's a lot of questions thatthey'll ask you and if you
answer yes to it, then you get apoint for being for lying or
malingering, but being for lyingor malingering.
(14:16):
But then some of the questionsthat they ask you are also
exactly the symptoms that youwould have if you're having a
brain injury, Like do you feelfeelings of, like depression,
you know, or do you feel?
Mila (14:25):
who does?
Eric (14:26):
it, yeah, or do you feel sad?
You know, if you answer yes tothat, then and I don't know if
this is the exact question thatwould give you a point for lying
, but they're, they're trying tosee if you're faking it, but
you answer a question that wouldbe, yes, you're faking it, but
then that's also a symptom ofhaving a brain injury, and so
that's how the defense industrymany times tries to set that up,
to be like this plaintiff'slying and they'd be like okay,
these.
(14:47):
I have lots of feelings aboutneuropsychological testing, but
you know so much of the testingis set up for failure against
the plaintiff, and then there'sa whole nother discussion to get
into which we don't probablyhave the time to get into it,
but whether or not the questionsare being asked the right way
because it goes back tofoundation, which we talked
about you know in the beginningthat if you're not doing the
(15:07):
proper technique with how you'retrying to gather evidence, it's
going to totally skew theresults and, like I've won a ton
of trials because the otherside is just trying to give
improper information to thejurors.
Mila (15:18):
I want to add something that I think is very important
that a lot of people don'tunderstand.
Pretty much in every PI case,when you're claiming injuries,
you're going to claim emotionaldistress as a result of those
injuries and a lot of peopledon't know that once you claim
emotional distress, the defenseis entitled to all of your
medical records.
(15:40):
If you've ever seen a therapistor a psychiatrist or a
psychologist in your life, youhave to disclose that to the
other side and then they get tosee those records.
And what I've seen is and I'vehad clients like go through it
because of this, is they gothrough like go through it
(16:01):
because of this, is they gothrough you know years of
medical records, therapy records.
They find that there are otherissues within, either childhood
traumas or, you know, a sexualassault or issues with their
sister, anything in their pastthat caused emotional distress,
and these you know independentquote, unquote medical examiners
(16:21):
will say well, this person hassuffered mental health issues
throughout their lives and anyemotional distress they're
suffering now is attributable totheir past traumas and not to
what happened here.
And a lot of people talk aboutplaintiffs like, oh, they're
just out to get a buck.
Like it takes courage to be aplaintiff, to open up your
(16:43):
records, to open up your life,to open up all of the claims
that you're bringing publicly ina civil lawsuit Like it's
extremely courageous and they gothrough a lot to get where they
get.
Eric (16:55):
Part of what we do as lawyers is try to educate the
client that if they're going tobe making the type of emotional
injury claim that is going toallow the defense to be able to
get into the medical records, tolike educate the client for
that.
But you're exactly right that somany times a defense
perspective or argument is goingto be it wasn't this crash that
caused it, wasn't this incidentthat caused this issue.
(17:16):
It was something that you had20 or 30 years ago and so many
times.
If you had that injury beforeor that emotional state before,
so many times it's already beencorrected and then later on down
the road now it's come back.
So then it becomes an issue ofyou know what gets attached to
what part of your life thatyou're going through.
(17:37):
But part of what we do is liketo your point is is making sure
that we believe our clients,cause I can't, if I don't
believe something that'shappening, I wouldn't take the
case, or I wouldn't want toexpress that part of the case,
um.
Cause if I don't believesomething like jurors can figure
that out real quick.
Cause I care so much about that, um, but or if if you're going
to get into something where youdon't believe in it, then you
(18:01):
need to have that conversationwith the client.
Ilona (18:03):
Well, I think the key to this is it has to be substantial
cause.
The accident, the event thatthe plaintiff is claiming
resulted in those injuries.
That must be substantial causefor those injuries.
So if you had mental healthissues 20 years ago that are
documented and then the accidentmakes things worse, I think it
(18:25):
helps your case.
It doesn't hurt it.
However, if around the sametime when the incident happened
you had sexual assault orsomething else and that's in
your medical records, then it'sgoing to be harder to prove what
substantial cause of thatinjury mental condition or
emotional stress that you areclaiming damages for, then the
(18:49):
lawyers may have to agree andstipulate to possibly only
pursue you know, garden varietydamages and not everything that
you eventually initially thoughtyou could.
And often that doesn't come upuntil after you get all the
medical records and exchangethem and see them.
Mila (19:06):
There's a growing trend of professionals, especially in
the law, using their creativebackgrounds in unexpected ways
Podcasting social media, evenmusic.
Eric (19:17):
Music has worked very well .
There's a song that I'mthinking of that really connects
, and here are the lyrics forthe jurors just to kind of like
sit and the lawyer stops talking, let's just listen to the music
.
So music just has a way to likeset the tone, set a space.
If you let that happen, I don'twant to give the song that I
did, because I may use it again,but it's like lyrically, like
(19:38):
this song just really lined upwith what the story of the case
was.
But then also the music is justvery expressive, very beautiful
.
Yeah, and some people, like you, sang at trial.
The answer was, yeah, this isthe creativity part.
Like do I sing it and trustthat the jurors know what I'm
doing?
Mila (19:54):
So that has worked very well.
I think one of the things thatarticle touched on is like how
lawyers are using theircreativity and expressing it
through podcasts and socialmedia and all of these things
social media and all of thesethings and this is really
important, I think, because youknow people as they grow and
develop their careers, theybuild their brands and their
brand inevitably will be, youknow, a result of their innate
(20:21):
talents and their creativity.
Like for you, your brand is,you know, partly a drummer, a
musician.
I mean, you have so manydifferent, complex parts to your
character, all of which arebeautiful.
They're like I want thatdrummer attorney, like I want
that person standing behind meand fighting for my rights.
You chase your fire.
Eric (20:54):
You truly embody that.
We're in the business ofcommunication and you know we've
been talking a lot about trialstoday, but so much of what we
do is just educating, justgetting information out, just
getting information out.
And something, mila, that youdo fantastic is and you do this
too, alona that is creatinginformation for just the general
public to be able to view.
And this is a creative part andthis ties in with that article
(21:17):
that lawyers can do it throughlike a podcast or through like
shorts.
Or look at where us as asociety are right now, where so
many people get theirinformation, whether it's right
or wrong, on social media andthen and the content keeps
getting shorter and shorter ofwhat are we expressing.
So then, how do you give peoplea concept in a way that has
some entertainment value, that'sfun to watch, that's going to
(21:39):
get shared, but is also qualityinformation and that comes part
of like well, how do you becreative with what you're doing
but then still give you knowlegit, credible information as a
lawyer?
Mila (21:49):
So it seems like everything you do you just put
your heart and soul into it.
You're very passionate.
I mean you learn the mechanicsof every aspect of the case
before going into it so thatwhen you're talking to a jury
there is no BS, because you knowexactly what happened and every
detail of it.
And I'm sure your clients feelthat that not only do they have
(22:12):
an attorney fighting for them,but someone who truly cares
about their case.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthat.
I'm sure you've gotten a lot offeedback in that regard.
Eric (22:20):
The answer is yes.
I do care a lot about this.
I care about getting accurate,objective information.
So, for example, like trucking,like I'm signing up to do, like
the trucking training to getlike the class A, class B
certification, and so I want tobe able to say I've been through
these classes, I know whatthey're supposed to be teaching
at these courses.
(22:41):
And if the defendant drivertruck driver, or if the
defendant truck driving company,if they're not training their
employees the right way, I wantto know what?
What should they have knownthat they're not doing?
That then caused this wreckthat you know killed a family of
four, you know, and if it's a,and if it's someone that really
needs a lawyer that's going tobe able to express that, to have
(23:02):
been in that seat, either inthe driver's seat, literally, of
a truck or in the seat, thedriver's seat of, like the
classroom setting, to know whatit takes to be able to go
through the weeks, months orwhatever of training, to
understand that.
That means that's veryimportant to me so that I can
then truly express all sides ofthe story and to be able to tell
(23:22):
the client's story.
Part of the client's story iswhat should the defendant's
company have known to do to stopthis crash from happening.
It's important to be able tohold someone accountable so that
hopefully, we're stopping thatfrom happening again.
Well, this has been a pleasure.
Thank you both for letting me Ifeel so good that I got to sit
next to I wanted the pink pillow.
I was forced to have the redpillow, but this has been great.
(23:43):
I love what you're doing hereand this is really fun to be a
part of this.
Mila (23:46):
Today's Glam Tip Don't hide your edge, redefine it.
Your uniqueness is your power.
Ilona (23:53):
And don't be afraid to make noise in unexpected places.
Whether you are in a courtroomor a club, you belong there.
Eric, you're proof that beingbrilliant and being yourself
aren't mutually exclusive.
Mila (24:05):
If you've been waiting for permission to pivot this is it.
This is a glamorous grind,where ambition plays loud and
reinvention is always in style.
We'll see you next week.
What is the secret to success?
And he said passion.
Eric (00:03):
When you really love something and you want to dive
into it, then you just figureeverything out as soon as you
can.
Mila (00:08):
Today's episode is all about following your passion.
If you are passionate in whatyou do, you will undoubtedly
become successful at it.
Ilona (00:17):
Welcome to the Glamorous Grind where grit meets glamour
and ambition always finds aspotlight.
Mila (00:22):
Seems like everything you do.
You just put your heart andsoul into it.
Eric (00:26):
That's very important to me to be able to tell the
client's story.
Ilona (00:28):
We're sitting down with a brilliant and bold Eric Gonci,
a drummer, a former DUI trialattorney with 72 trials under
his belt and now a personalinjury powerhouse focusing on
brain injury cases.
Eric (00:40):
I have a passion for that.
I have a family member whounfortunately went through a
really gnarly brain injury.
Mila (00:46):
Maybe you thought of switching lanes or following
multiple passions, but weren'tready to take the leap.
This episode might just havesome answers for you.
Ilona (01:04):
All right, Eric.
Well, thanks for being here andwearing a beautiful bow tie.
I love your bow tie.
Eric (01:08):
What's the?
Ilona (01:09):
secret behind that.
Eric (01:11):
Behind the bow ties.
Yes, it was born out of stress.
I thought this is such astressful job as you both know
as fantastic lawyers and triallawyers and I was doing a
necktie for God the first nineor ten years and I thought I
want to just enjoy somethingthat's just a little bit
different.
So I started doing the bow tiesand then but I wasn't going to
(01:31):
do clip-on bow ties becausepeople ask me all the time, oh
is that tied?
Which I think is a ridiculousquestion to be asked.
So I just started wearing them.
It took me years before I wouldwear them before a jury, but I
really enjoyed all the variousbow ties that I have, and even
my mom has made me some bow ties, which is super cool, so it's
something I really enjoy.
Mila (01:50):
And when I saw your bow ties, my first thought was like
that is very brave, that's abrave fashion statement, right?
Because, like, not everyonecould pull that off and to me it
immediately signaled that youcame off as like so confident,
so knowing what you're doing,and you wore that bow tie with
such pride.
It told me immediately that youare not afraid to be your
(02:12):
authentic self, no matter whatanyone thinks.
Eric (02:15):
Yeah.
Ilona (02:15):
And my impression, now that you asked for it was wow,
that bow tie is big, becausenormally big bow ties are
smaller, like I've seen somejudges wear them and others, but
yours like stands out and it'sperfectly done, so I wouldn't be
surprised why people think it'spre-made.
To me it's like go big or gohome.
Eric (02:31):
Yeah, I think that, especially having done a lot of
jury trials jurors, their BSmeters are like really on all
the time Because they havenothing to do but just sit there
and just watch the story unfoldand the movie unfold before
them.
So they do a lot of like.
I've won trials before becausethe jurors like my cufflinks and
I was like what do you thinkabout the facts?
They're like yeah, the factswere fine, we just love your
(02:52):
cufflinks.
Okay, great, I mean, I won thetrial, so that's good.
The bow tie thing, it's, I justlike it.
Lean into who you are as aperson, then jurors respond well
and other people generallyrespond well to you.
If you're just being a verytrue version of yourself, as
soon as you're trying to likefake it in some way, shape or
form, people don't like to bearound that.
(03:13):
But then once you feelcomfortable with what you're
doing, then it just comes offthat way and it's just something
that you know I enjoy.
Ilona (03:20):
So how many years have you been an attorney now?
Eric (03:22):
16 years I was a teacher before I became a lawyer, and so
then people so many times ask,well, how did you go from
teaching to being a lawyer?
To which I respond that there'sso much that is the law that is
teaching.
So you know like we're teachingour clients, we're teaching
judges, we're teaching jurors,we're teaching opposing counsel,
we're teaching on this podcast.
You know like there's so muchcrossover from teaching to being
(03:44):
a lawyer.
Plus, I just wanted to learnmore about the world because I
was teaching and I was a musicband director and I felt very
confident in that.
But there's just so much morewith the law that you just get
to learn so much about the world.
Ilona (03:57):
After you finished law school, what was your first job?
Eric (03:59):
So right out of law school I started my own firm.
A lot of people told me that'scrazy, you can't do that, you
don't know enough, and that isvery true.
For lots of lawyers.
It can be a very scary thing todo.
When you really love somethingand you want to dive into it,
then you just figure everythingout as soon as you can.
And so I was, you know, gettingon cases and I was making money
and then, instead of going outand buying, you know, fancy cars
(04:20):
and fancy houses and that kindof stuff, I would just keep
reinvesting it into myself, andthen that allowed me just to
keep knowing more and more andmore.
So I ran my own business for 12years doing exclusively DUI
cases DUI defense cases for 12years.
Mila (04:35):
One of the things that really strikes me about you and
it's very rare to me is justconstant growth mindset.
And I heard this quote actuallyyesterday and someone was asked
what is the secret to successand he said passion.
Said anything else, nope, justpassion.
If you are passionate in whatyou do, you will undoubtedly
(04:57):
become successful at it.
And then there was anotherthing I was listening to today
actually because I'm also likealways learning and it was a
podcast about neuroscience.
And one of the things theytouched on is like if you're
lazy, maybe it's because youdon't find purpose in what you
do, like there is a reasonbehind everything.
(05:18):
And one thing I love about youis like when you find something
you love, you just go all in.
Now it's time for the audienceQ&A.
So here's the listener question.
I'm a law student who's also apainter.
I'm worried I won't be takenseriously if I show that side of
myself professionally.
Did you ever feel pressure tohide your creative side?
Eric (05:41):
I identify very much as a drummer and as a musician side.
I identify very much as adrummer and as a musician, but
that also comes connected withidentifying as someone who just
cares a lot about being good atsomething and that's you know
being.
I wanted to be a good drummerand a musician.
Anything that I want to do thatI really love.
I want to learn everythingabout it and I want to learn all
(06:02):
the foundations about it, sothen I can then play with the
art that comes from thefoundation.
So I identify very much assomeone who cares a lot about
foundational stuff and art.
What a lot of people don't thinkabout, maybe because they
haven't had the experience withit, is that we think lawyers and
you think reading lots of booksand like needed to know all
(06:23):
this information, knowing thelaw.
And then there is being a triallawyer, which very much is
knowing the law and all thatkind of stuff.
But it's also knowing how to bea storyteller, knowing how to
like communicate with people,knowing how to listen a lot.
It's knowing how to be like theproducer and the director of
like a movie or a stage play.
So it's and this is all getsback to like the foundational
stuff that there's.
There's an art to all of thisthat we're doing.
(06:46):
But then the more that I canfocus on having the foundational
stuff, then when I go in andI'm doing a trial, I don't need
to worry, hopefully, as muchabout the foundational like am I
standing in the right space, amI, and talking with a like loud
enough courtroom voice?
And then I know that I'm goingto have strong foundations
because I've worked on that.
So then hopefully it'ssecondary nature.
So then that allows me to thenjust be more calm, connected
(07:09):
with the jurors and then justallow more space for what the
art could happen in the trial.
If it's like a short trial likeyou know, three to four days
I've done lots of those Is it alonger trial, like a few weeks,
and there's like an art to thetrial and how are people
receiving information?
There's an art to all of thisstuff.
(07:30):
So that's where foundation andbeing a lawyer, like left brain
lawyer, right brain lawyer, likehow all this stuff comes
together.
Ilona (07:38):
So you know, there's obviously a book Art of War.
If it was the art of trial,what would be your top three
tips?
Eric (07:47):
I do love the art of war very, very much.
Be prepared, listen.
And the trial is not about you,the lawyer.
So many lawyers think that thetrial is about the lawyer and
maybe the first 20 trials I wasthinking like, wow, this is
really about me and that's notthe case.
You're a part of it, you'reproducing and you're directing
the movie, but you need to getout of the way.
(08:08):
So the trial is not about you.
And as soon as lawyers try toget many times try to interject
themselves into the story, thejurors they don't want to hear
that.
They don't trust lawyersgenerally for many good reasons.
Many times they want to hearlike what's the story that's
happening?
Like let's have the witnessessay like what's happening?
So that would be the last one.
Ilona (08:28):
You now practice personal injury, and you have been doing
that five years.
Okay, um, what do youspecialize in?
Eric (08:35):
So I specialize in doing brain injury cases.
I have a passion for that.
I have a family member whounfortunately went through a
really gnarly brain injury, andso it's also an emerging science
.
There's like lots of knowns,there's lots of unknowns with
that, so it's a way for me justto try to understand it so I can
be present with my family,understand and give honest
(09:04):
information in a trial settingabout what is like, what's
happening with this brain injuryand that's and there's lots.
I mean brain injury is like sucha wide range and it could be
like how the person is acting,like what part of their head was
hit, what part of the brain isaffected.
But then it's also like theneuroimaging side of it Cause,
for an example, like we haveMRIs, but then we also have DTIs
, which is just another way toimage the brain, and that is a
(09:25):
newer or some people think thatit's a newer technology that's
been around for a while, butdoes that evidence come in as
trial?
So then there is the sciencebehind what is DTI, mris, and
how do we get that in front of ajudge for the judge to
understand?
This is what the objectivescience is behind it and what
side is like for me.
I've seen so many defenselawyers or defense industry
(09:47):
people try to skew like what thetrue science behind of a DTI is
, and so then you have tounderstand what it is so that
you can then express it to saylike no, what they're saying is
wrong, they're relying on thesearticles.
What the true information is,this, and then be persuasive
with that to a judge, to let theevidence in and to the jury.
Mila (10:08):
Brain injuries are so scientific.
I know when I was working onthe defense side PI, we had a
brain injury case and we reallyhad to learn all of the science
behind it.
And I always find itastonishing because any other
injury you can see and the braininjury cases are the only
(10:28):
injuries where you cannot seethem, touch them.
They are all internal and youhave to look at a person's
behavior and use experts anddoctors to assess the extent of
the injuries.
And the problem with that isespecially in a lawsuit people
can lie and so it's tough.
Ilona (10:49):
I mean, if you keep going to a doctor and you have memory
loss and things get worsenormally and become more
permanent after a year, it'seasier to document.
It's just that you need to havedocumented treatment plan to
show how your symptoms developover time, right?
Eric (11:05):
It's all of these things.
It could be all of this stuff.
And I've had cases where myclient was, where the defense
was arguing like hey, thisperson's a liar.
And I've had cases, too, whereit was the plaintiff and, to be
honest, like the plaintiff wastrying to like distance
themselves from having a braininjury, was not being really
honest with themselves aboutwhat they had.
(11:26):
And the reality with that,which is really sad, is that
like this I'm thinking of oneperson in particular just
because it's a more recent caseis that this person doesn't want
to have to live with a braininjury.
Like he understands what hewent through as a car crash case
and how sad and frustrating itis for him because he was such a
high performer at work, andthen to know that he's having
all these issues now and hedoesn't want to admit that and
(11:48):
so that becomes a piece of thecase.
And then the defense says he'slying.
And that's not always, you know, maybe sometimes there are
certainly people that lie.
You know, in our industry noshocker, there are people that
lie, but sometimes it's just asad reality of what the person
like, what, what their life isright now, and it is very
(12:08):
technical, but then it can alsojust be so plain, yeah, and
present.
And that's where, like beforeand after, witnesses on brain
injury cases are so important,because you can have all the
doctors and the doctors aregoing to say, you know various
things, but then just havingsomeone that knows them to be
like this is what they were likebefore, this is what they're
like now, totally different.
(12:28):
Lots that goes into that.
Mila (12:31):
There is one thing that I recall learning about, and maybe
you know the exact term for it,but it's when a plaintiff and
especially in a brain injurycase and maybe you know the
exact term for it, but it's whena plaintiff, and especially in
a brain injury case is inlitigation and is being seen by
doctors.
Right, because once you putyour psychological state at
issue, the defense side can comein and have their doctors, you
(12:52):
know, interview you and do allof these awful tests and then
the plaintiff starts havingexacerbated symptoms.
Then you have to have expertsfrom the defense side who are
coming and saying these symptomsare actually from the
litigation and being a plaintiffand hearing about what a victim
they are, and not from thebrain injury.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Eric (13:15):
Sure, it's a lot so.
I'll try to keep it short,because there's a lot to get in
with that.
There actually is that approachthat defense lawyers take.
They're saying you're in thislitigation and if you're
experiencing these frustrationsor these symptoms, it's not
because of the brain injury,it's just because you're simply
stressed and going through thislitigation.
(13:36):
Or aha, we caught you.
You're acting this way becauseyou're simply stressed and going
through the litigation or howwe caught you.
You're acting this way becauseyou're trying to lie your way
through.
This is what the argument is,and that's also false too.
That's what they try to argue.
There's also a lot ofneuropsychological testing
that's done, and I've beenthrough a day of doing
neuropsych testing.
Mila (13:54):
On yourself On myself yes.
Eric (13:56):
Wow, yeah, Because so much of what I want to do that if
I'm going to try to arguesomething or understand the
objective science, I want to gothrough a very true version of
like what, what it.
So I've been through and donethe testing and it was like
hours long.
There's a lot of questions thatthey'll ask you and if you
answer yes to it, then you get apoint for being for lying or
malingering, but being for lyingor malingering.
(14:16):
But then some of the questionsthat they ask you are also
exactly the symptoms that youwould have if you're having a
brain injury, Like do you feelfeelings of, like depression,
you know, or do you feel?
Mila (14:25):
who does?
Eric (14:26):
it, yeah, or do you feel sad?
You know, if you answer yes tothat, then and I don't know if
this is the exact question thatwould give you a point for lying
, but they're, they're trying tosee if you're faking it, but
you answer a question that wouldbe, yes, you're faking it, but
then that's also a symptom ofhaving a brain injury, and so
that's how the defense industrymany times tries to set that up,
to be like this plaintiff'slying and they'd be like okay,
these.
(14:47):
I have lots of feelings aboutneuropsychological testing, but
you know so much of the testingis set up for failure against
the plaintiff, and then there'sa whole nother discussion to get
into which we don't probablyhave the time to get into it,
but whether or not the questionsare being asked the right way
because it goes back tofoundation, which we talked
about you know in the beginningthat if you're not doing the
(15:07):
proper technique with how you'retrying to gather evidence, it's
going to totally skew theresults and, like I've won a ton
of trials because the otherside is just trying to give
improper information to thejurors.
Mila (15:18):
I want to add something that I think is very important
that a lot of people don'tunderstand.
Pretty much in every PI case,when you're claiming injuries,
you're going to claim emotionaldistress as a result of those
injuries and a lot of peopledon't know that once you claim
emotional distress, the defenseis entitled to all of your
medical records.
(15:40):
If you've ever seen a therapistor a psychiatrist or a
psychologist in your life, youhave to disclose that to the
other side and then they get tosee those records.
And what I've seen is and I'vehad clients like go through it
because of this, is they gothrough like go through it
(16:01):
because of this, is they gothrough you know years of
medical records, therapy records.
They find that there are otherissues within, either childhood
traumas or, you know, a sexualassault or issues with their
sister, anything in their pastthat caused emotional distress,
and these you know independentquote, unquote medical examiners
(16:21):
will say well, this person hassuffered mental health issues
throughout their lives and anyemotional distress they're
suffering now is attributable totheir past traumas and not to
what happened here.
And a lot of people talk aboutplaintiffs like, oh, they're
just out to get a buck.
Like it takes courage to be aplaintiff, to open up your
(16:43):
records, to open up your life,to open up all of the claims
that you're bringing publicly ina civil lawsuit Like it's
extremely courageous and they gothrough a lot to get where they
get.
Eric (16:55):
Part of what we do as lawyers is try to educate the
client that if they're going tobe making the type of emotional
injury claim that is going toallow the defense to be able to
get into the medical records, tolike educate the client for
that.
But you're exactly right that somany times a defense
perspective or argument is goingto be it wasn't this crash that
caused it, wasn't this incidentthat caused this issue.
(17:16):
It was something that you had20 or 30 years ago and so many
times.
If you had that injury beforeor that emotional state before,
so many times it's already beencorrected and then later on down
the road now it's come back.
So then it becomes an issue ofyou know what gets attached to
what part of your life thatyou're going through.
(17:37):
But part of what we do is liketo your point is is making sure
that we believe our clients,cause I can't, if I don't
believe something that'shappening, I wouldn't take the
case, or I wouldn't want toexpress that part of the case,
um.
Cause if I don't believesomething like jurors can figure
that out real quick.
Cause I care so much about that, um, but or if if you're going
to get into something where youdon't believe in it, then you
(18:01):
need to have that conversationwith the client.
Ilona (18:03):
Well, I think the key to this is it has to be substantial
cause.
The accident, the event thatthe plaintiff is claiming
resulted in those injuries.
That must be substantial causefor those injuries.
So if you had mental healthissues 20 years ago that are
documented and then the accidentmakes things worse, I think it
(18:25):
helps your case.
It doesn't hurt it.
However, if around the sametime when the incident happened
you had sexual assault orsomething else and that's in
your medical records, then it'sgoing to be harder to prove what
substantial cause of thatinjury mental condition or
emotional stress that you areclaiming damages for, then the
(18:49):
lawyers may have to agree andstipulate to possibly only
pursue you know, garden varietydamages and not everything that
you eventually initially thoughtyou could.
And often that doesn't come upuntil after you get all the
medical records and exchangethem and see them.
Mila (19:06):
There's a growing trend of professionals, especially in
the law, using their creativebackgrounds in unexpected ways
Podcasting social media, evenmusic.
Eric (19:17):
Music has worked very well .
There's a song that I'mthinking of that really connects
, and here are the lyrics forthe jurors just to kind of like
sit and the lawyer stops talking, let's just listen to the music
.
So music just has a way to likeset the tone, set a space.
If you let that happen, I don'twant to give the song that I
did, because I may use it again,but it's like lyrically, like
(19:38):
this song just really lined upwith what the story of the case
was.
But then also the music is justvery expressive, very beautiful
.
Yeah, and some people, like you, sang at trial.
The answer was, yeah, this isthe creativity part.
Like do I sing it and trustthat the jurors know what I'm
doing?
Mila (19:54):
So that has worked very well.
I think one of the things thatarticle touched on is like how
lawyers are using theircreativity and expressing it
through podcasts and socialmedia and all of these things
social media and all of thesethings and this is really
important, I think, because youknow people as they grow and
develop their careers, theybuild their brands and their
brand inevitably will be, youknow, a result of their innate
(20:21):
talents and their creativity.
Like for you, your brand is,you know, partly a drummer, a
musician.
I mean, you have so manydifferent, complex parts to your
character, all of which arebeautiful.
They're like I want thatdrummer attorney, like I want
that person standing behind meand fighting for my rights.
You chase your fire.
Eric (20:54):
You truly embody that.
We're in the business ofcommunication and you know we've
been talking a lot about trialstoday, but so much of what we
do is just educating, justgetting information out, just
getting information out.
And something, mila, that youdo fantastic is and you do this
too, alona that is creatinginformation for just the general
public to be able to view.
And this is a creative part andthis ties in with that article
(21:17):
that lawyers can do it throughlike a podcast or through like
shorts.
Or look at where us as asociety are right now, where so
many people get theirinformation, whether it's right
or wrong, on social media andthen and the content keeps
getting shorter and shorter ofwhat are we expressing.
So then, how do you give peoplea concept in a way that has
some entertainment value, that'sfun to watch, that's going to
(21:39):
get shared, but is also qualityinformation and that comes part
of like well, how do you becreative with what you're doing
but then still give you knowlegit, credible information as a
lawyer?
Mila (21:49):
So it seems like everything you do you just put
your heart and soul into it.
You're very passionate.
I mean you learn the mechanicsof every aspect of the case
before going into it so thatwhen you're talking to a jury
there is no BS, because you knowexactly what happened and every
detail of it.
And I'm sure your clients feelthat that not only do they have
(22:12):
an attorney fighting for them,but someone who truly cares
about their case.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthat.
I'm sure you've gotten a lot offeedback in that regard.
Eric (22:20):
The answer is yes.
I do care a lot about this.
I care about getting accurate,objective information.
So, for example, like trucking,like I'm signing up to do, like
the trucking training to getlike the class A, class B
certification, and so I want tobe able to say I've been through
these classes, I know whatthey're supposed to be teaching
at these courses.
(22:41):
And if the defendant drivertruck driver, or if the
defendant truck driving company,if they're not training their
employees the right way, I wantto know what?
What should they have knownthat they're not doing?
That then caused this wreckthat you know killed a family of
four, you know, and if it's a,and if it's someone that really
needs a lawyer that's going tobe able to express that, to have
(23:02):
been in that seat, either inthe driver's seat, literally, of
a truck or in the seat, thedriver's seat of, like the
classroom setting, to know whatit takes to be able to go
through the weeks, months orwhatever of training, to
understand that.
That means that's veryimportant to me so that I can
then truly express all sides ofthe story and to be able to tell
(23:22):
the client's story.
Part of the client's story iswhat should the defendant's
company have known to do to stopthis crash from happening.
It's important to be able tohold someone accountable so that
hopefully, we're stopping thatfrom happening again.
Well, this has been a pleasure.
Thank you both for letting me Ifeel so good that I got to sit
next to I wanted the pink pillow.
I was forced to have the redpillow, but this has been great.
(23:43):
I love what you're doing hereand this is really fun to be a
part of this.
Mila (23:46):
Today's Glam Tip Don't hide your edge, redefine it.
Your uniqueness is your power.
Ilona (23:53):
And don't be afraid to make noise in unexpected places.
Whether you are in a courtroomor a club, you belong there.
Eric, you're proof that beingbrilliant and being yourself
aren't mutually exclusive.
Mila (24:05):
If you've been waiting for permission to pivot this is it.
This is a glamorous grind,where ambition plays loud and
reinvention is always in style.
We'll see you next week.
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