July 15, 2025 • 44 mins
Are prenups just for the rich—or are they a smart move for anyone saying “I do”?
In this episode of The Glamorous Grind, Ilona and Mila are joined by certified family law specialist Andrew Rosenberry to unpack the truth about prenuptial agreements. From protecting both parties to why they’re more common (and necessary) than ever, we’re breaking down the legal and emotional realities of love, money, and marriage.
💔 What if your partner refuses to sign?
💼 What makes a prenup enforceable—or totally useless in court?
👰🏽♀️ Should you skip marriage and just get a cohabitation agreement?
Whether you're planning a wedding or just curious how the law views relationships, this episode brings the grit and the glam.
Want more glam during your grind?
New episodes every Tuesday. Make sure you are subscribed on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.
🎙️ Hosts: Ilona Antonyan & Mila Arutunian
📲 Follow us on IG: @glamorousgrindpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andrew (00:00):
Is your fiancé on board with this, or are you going to
drop a bomb?
Mila (00:04):
on them.
Prenuptial agreements do help,because you know the truth is,
divorce is a likelihood for mostpeople.
Ilona (00:12):
But you're loved, even if someone presents you with a
prenup you're loved.
This is just to prevent both ofyou from protracted litigation
years down the road.
Mila (00:21):
Welcome to the Glamorous Grind where grit meets glamour
and the law is always in style.
Ilona (00:27):
Today we're diving into a topic that's rarely discussed
openly prenups.
Mila (00:31):
Do weddings get canceled because of prenups?
Andrew (00:34):
If your fiancee digs their heels in and says "'I'm
not signing it', what are yougoing to do"?
Ilona (00:39):
Whether you're planning a wedding or just dreaming about
one Another option is not to getmarried and live together.
Mila (00:46):
Understanding the legal side of love is crucial.
Andrew (00:50):
Maybe in the end she's dodging the bullet.
Ilona (00:52):
So let's talk how to protect your heart and your
assets.
In Russian they say любовь зла,полюбыша козла means love is
mean you can fall in love with agoat.
We're excited to have ourpartner, Andrew Rosenberry, on
(01:20):
our show today.
Andrew is a certified familylaw specialist and one of the
toughest litigators inCalifornia.
Andrew, can you please tell ourviewers about yourself?
Andrew (01:28):
Sure, I've been practicing law for a little over
30 years.
I tripped into family law.
It wasn't something that Ichose.
I grew up in the days of LA law, where there was a guy named
Arnie Becker and he was thefamily law attorney in the firm.
And Arnie was just.
Everyone just knew he was justa sleazebag.
So I was probably six monthsinto my practice I got a
(01:51):
referral from a friend of mine.
It was a five-week arrangedmarriage that took us a year to
litigate.
Fortunately and unfortunatelyfor me, the attorney on the
other side was probably one ofthe top five litigators in the
state of california and he justenjoyed spending that whole year
just screwing with me.
(02:12):
Basically.
And after we litigated for ayear and did a full day trial,
um he, uh.
He called me five days laterand I thought thought what's
this jerk want?
And he said I think you oughtto come work for me and it was
such an epiphany for me that hecould treat me that way.
(02:33):
But he was watching how I wasconducting myself as a new
attorney and he was sizing me upfor what for me was like
complete change in my career theamount of skills that are
required to be a high-levelfamily law attorney.
It takes decades to developthat.
Ilona (02:54):
Yes, you have to know contract law, criminal law, to
be able to prosecute contempt.
Mila (03:00):
Bankruptcy.
Ilona (03:00):
Family law, bankruptcy, there's everything.
All right.
Let's talk prenups andpostnupsups.
I love litigating postnuptialagreements and you're the guy at
our office who's an expert onprenups and writing them up.
They all go to you right now.
What do you love about it?
Andrew (03:15):
the thing about writing prenups that I like is that you
you can take a lot of the theangst and the anxiety that some
people have going into theirmarriage and just take it out
Whenever.
I'm approached with a you knowsomeone comes in and they want a
premarital agreement.
They've got a lot of nervessurrounding their finances, so
(03:35):
it could be a first marriage.
It could be that they had areally bad experience with a
prior divorce and they justdon't want that hanging over
their head a prior divorce andthey just don't want that
hanging over their head.
And so, if done right and youhave both people coming into it
on the same page, it's nice tosee that they're able to wipe
(04:00):
away this anxiety from this partof their relationship and then
really focus on the fun part ofhaving this phenomenal wedding
and party.
Mila (04:05):
As someone who's been married for almost 13 years,
believe it or not, I feel like13 years ago prenups were crazy
and a lot of like society didnot really accept that.
People would go like, oh,you're going in and you're
already contemplating divorceand that's why you want this
agreement.
But now it's so much moreaccepted and I don't know if
(04:28):
it's because people are gettingmarried when they're older so
they have a lot more to lose ormore that they've built up, or
just people are just becomingmore accepting of the fact that
divorce is possible and it'sbetter to prepare yourself on
both sides, because I think thatyou know the general theory and
(04:48):
when people think prenups, theythink, oh, it protects the
higher wage earner, but I thinkin a lot of situations it also
protects the person who maybeearns less wages because they
don't have to deal withlitigation costs of divorce.
If that happens, they alreadyknow what they'll be entitled to
.
Andrew (05:07):
It's a great point because most premarital
negotiations start off on veryfar extremes, where one person
gets everything and the otherperson gets nothing.
And the beauty of the premaritalagreement is in the negotiation
that goes through anddeveloping ultimately what their
(05:27):
expectations are going to be,not while they're married, but
in the unfortunate event thatsomehow it doesn't work out.
So a good point that you make,which is it's not all about
protecting, but it's really manytimes what we'll call the
disadvantaged spouse and that isthe person that comes into the
marriage with less or many timesit's the woman that there's an
(05:51):
expectation that they're goingto be having children, she's
going to forego a career, andthis is the perfect opportunity
to really set the expectations.
For if we go down the road ofwinding up our marriage, I'm not
going to have to go through allthis hard-fought litigation
(06:14):
just to make sure that I've gotenough to live at the marital
standard for a reasonable periodof time.
Make sure that our kids areliving in homes that are
relatively situated, so youdon't have one parent that's got
this phenomenal house and thenyou've got another parent living
in a two bedroom apartment.
They're squeezing everybodyinto it.
(06:35):
So that's a great opportunityfor them to negotiate those
types of terms.
Ilona (06:42):
And you can't waive the right to receive child support,
so that's always going to be onthe table.
Mila (06:47):
I do have a question on that point.
Normally and I have so manyquestions because I never dealt
with this area of the law, butnormally when people come in for
prenups, are both partiesrepresented separately or are
neither of the partiesrepresented.
They give you their terms andyou kind of serve as a mediator.
Andrew (07:06):
I require that both parties have attorneys with
experience in drafting ornegotiating premarital
agreements.
Mila (07:13):
Who pays for the attorneys , because I feel like most
situations, probably one personis the one pushing the prenup
and it's not fair that the otherperson has to pay to be
represented.
Andrew (07:22):
It's usually the person that is wanting the premarital
agreement will pay for the costof both.
Ilona (07:28):
But not directly.
They will give money to theirfuture spouse so that spouse can
pay directly, to avoid anyconflict of interest or
appearance thereof.
Andrew (07:36):
Sure, it's important that, not only just from
appearance's sake, but inactuality, both parties are able
to choose the attorney of theirselection.
If I'm representing the personthat is, for example, that has
the majority of the assets goinginto the negotiation, I'll make
sure that their fiancé has thelink for all the certified
(08:02):
family law specialists in SanDiego or whatever county they
happen to be in, and let themknow that there's no limitation
on who they want to hire.
Ilona (08:13):
Because if you go to someone who's a general
practitioner, they'll charge 500bucks just to quickly meet with
you and sign off on theagreement without negotiating it
.
And then you hope that in thefuture you can argue that they
had legal counsel andrepresentation.
It can probably be challengedbecause one this attorney may
have not explained everything tothem in writing, the risks they
(08:36):
may not speak the language thatthe party speaks, and often it
happens to non-English speakers.
Let's say you have a bride fromanother country on K-1 visa.
You're like okay, let's go to acheap lawyer and pay them to
sign off on this, or let's go acouple of times.
That'll probably be challengedin litigation later.
Mila (08:52):
That goes to my next question of, because I know
you've litigated these a lot, soyou've taken them to court and
argued that something has beenunenforceable.
What type of factors do judgesand courts look at to determine
if a prenuptial agreement isenforceable or when they throw
it out and say it's not a validagreement?
Ilona (09:14):
Voluntariness.
You know where.
Did you enter into thisagreement voluntarily or you
were under duress?
If you didn't have a lawyer andyou waived your spouse support
rights, then that would beunenforceable.
Andrew (09:24):
In preparing the premarital agreements.
I look at it from the sameperspective that ALONA does,
which is, what would it looklike on the litigation side of
it?
And so you try to approach itfrom avoiding those pitfalls
that could lead the parties intofurther litigation.
It's did you have theopportunity arm's length
(09:44):
negotiation, no pressure, to getthis done.
That's why it's so importantfor attorneys when clients come
in and they're talking, theywant a premarital agreement.
You have to know well, when isyour wedding date?
Is this a fixed wedding?
Is this date fixed?
Have the invitations been sentout?
(10:05):
Are people coming in from outof town?
Has there been a bacheloretteparty?
I mean, if someone comes in andthey're getting married in
three weeks or four weeks, Irespectfully turn them away.
I think the sweet spot is ifsomeone comes to me and they've
got a wedding date that is fourto six months out.
(10:26):
I think that's kind of a sweetspot because, generally speaking
, you know you find out at theinitial consultation.
Is your fiancé on board withthis or are you going to drop a
bomb?
Mila (10:39):
on them?
Do weddings get canceledbecause of prenups?
Andrew (10:42):
I've only had a couple that canceled.
Mila (10:45):
Okay, that's not bad.
That makes me happy.
Andrew (10:46):
But it's a conversation that I have to have with them,
which is look, if your fiancedigs their heels in and says I'm
not signing it, what are yougoing to do?
Are you going to just bite thebullet and get married and hope
that you can negotiate apost-marital agreement which
they're no longer obligated tosign, or are you going to move
the wedding date out?
I've had marriages that justnever ended up happening.
(11:10):
They just the relationshipended.
I've had them.
I've seen people move theirwedding dates out.
Mila (11:15):
To make sure they were.
Andrew (11:21):
And in fact, when they move, the wedding dates out and
they ultimately sign apremarital agreement, it only
makes that premarital agreementstronger, because they recognize
that they needed more time.
Ilona (11:29):
And I want to add that premarital agreement under the
law is only effective uponmarriage.
So if you have this contractand you choose not to get
married but continuecohabitating and living together
, it doesn't take effect.
So, for the listeners, if youare living with someone and you
want to protect yourself fromwhat's called a Marvin action
that's a breach of oralagreement and you have a
(11:53):
two-year statute of limitationafter your breakup with your
boyfriend or girlfriend, thenyou'd want to have cohabitation
agreements that don't go afteryou for verbal promises made
that you didn't keep.
Mila (12:07):
From the other end.
Prenuptial agreements do helpbecause, you know, the truth is,
divorce is a likelihood formost people, like more than 50%
of people get divorced right.
So if it does happen, it'sextremely difficult.
So this is a way to protectboth parties, to make sure that
everything's fair.
Ilona (12:27):
Another option is not to get married and live together
and you can have childrentogether, but in your
cohabitation agreement you couldagree on how assets acquired
during your relationship may beowned, whether or not you're
entitled or the title controls,or you know whether you're going
to have bank accounts togetherand if those joint bank accounts
(12:47):
are going to be 50% owned byboth of you, regardless of who
puts in the money.
So there are ways to reach anagreement as to your property
and co-ownership without beingmarried.
Mila (12:58):
I have a logistical question and maybe this is a
dumb question, but as a layperson I've always wondered this
.
I understand that prenuptialagreements take into account
what was previously owned by theperson and by each side and
what they can reasonably make,what's anticipated to be made.
But what if, let's say, one ofthe parties opens up a business
(13:21):
during the course of themarriage?
Can the prenuptial agreementaccount, or should it, or does
it always account for potentialhigher earning capacity later
down the line?
And how is that even enforcedby a court?
If you can't really anticipatethat, what if the other spouse
played a part in helping growthat business and then they're
(13:45):
not entitled to any of that orthe support that they provided
to the spouse while they grewthe business?
Can they sign off their rightsto ever benefiting from that
business later on?
Absolutely.
Andrew (13:56):
Really, and most premarital agreements are 30, 40
pages long, and the reason isbecause they take into account
all of those little items thatyou hit, plus a whole bunch more
, and so every possible legaltheory that community property
could attach to is addressedwithin the premarital agreement.
(14:19):
How can you waive?
Mila (14:20):
the rights to that Like as a woman.
If you anticipate you're goingto be a stay at home mom, how
can you waive the rights to thatLike as a woman if you
anticipate you're going to be astay-at-home mom, how can you
waive your rights to like havingany rights into a potential
business that your husband couldstart?
Ilona (14:31):
You have to negotiate in front before you sign the
agreement or it's all waived.
Generally it'll say bothparties waive any and all rights
, any businesses and incomethat's earned during the
marriage, except for a jointaccount they may open together
and decide to put money into.
Andrew (14:46):
It's the least romantic part of the premarital agreement
because ultimately, nobody isrequired to marry another
individual.
That is completely voluntary.
And if someone says I can onlyforesee myself getting into that
permanency of a relationshipwith you, if we have these other
(15:08):
things, then they have theright to do that.
And keep in mind, premaritalagreements are probably a
fraction of a fraction of cases.
I don't think that they're aswidespread as people think.
But of course, if you knowsomeone that's got a premarital
agreement, then everybody's anexpert in it.
But ultimately people don'thave to get married.
(15:30):
If one person doesn't want toget married unless they have
these contingencies, then maybethey should go a different
direction.
Maybe a woman that is lookingat it from a hey, I'm going to
love this man for the rest of mylife and I want to have his
children and I want to raisethem and I want him to be the
most successful person there is.
And in the meantime I don'tnecessarily want to put myself
(15:53):
in a position where I put myselfat risk and not being able to
support myself or support thekids and I'm going to forego a
lot of things.
Maybe in the end she's dodgingthe bullet.
Maybe that's not the rightperson for her, if that person
is going to require all thesecontingencies.
Mila (16:08):
Yeah, but love is blind.
In Russian they say Любовь зла,полюбушка зла.
It means Love is mean you canfall in love with a goat.
Andrew (16:22):
Facts Most states that's not permissible.
Mila (16:24):
I just feel like I don't know.
I just feel like I don't know,I just feel like when you're in
that phase actually an ass youcan fall out with an ass.
That would be yeah a bettertranslation.
Like an ad.
It's like the goat I don't knowit.
Just.
It just seems difficult toreally anticipate these things
and then be really be able toplan for these things.
Ilona (16:42):
But I guess I think it's easy to anticipate those things.
Everybody is.
When you're young, you thinkyou know we're in love and
everything will be great andwe'll be together forever.
And you see, you know heartsflying around you.
That's not real life.
Eventually, after a few yearsof marriage, you have children.
You have real life problems andyou're not with the same person
(17:02):
that you married, because lifeis now in a different stage.
You either are in the rightmindset and mature enough to
advance through those stages andtolerate it, or you still have
different expectations or not onboard.
And what?
Over 50% of marriages end up indivorce.
Did those 50% get married,thinking they're gonna be part
of that statistic?
(17:22):
No, but what percentage ofthose 50% who are getting
divorced actually have prenups?
Maybe 5% to 10%.
Andrew (17:31):
Not even probably, and I think statistically, your
prenups are usually going tofall within people that are in
their 30s and 40s.
Ilona (17:40):
I had a client who retained me to do a prenup, who
needed a prenup big time, but heended up getting married with
that one because his fiance wasvery, very hurt by the proposal
of having one.
Andrew (17:53):
And that happens a lot and that's what I was saying is
is having that conversation with, with the client is a does the,
does your fiance, man or woman?
Do they know that you're asking, that you want a premarital
agreement?
I would say four out of fivetimes they've already had the
conversation, so this is notgoing to be something that is
(18:15):
foreign to them, but every nowand then they say, well, I
wouldn't even talk to them aboutit.
And I usually say you need togo talk to them first, then come
back and see me.
Obviously, the client has beenup front with their fiancé and
now somehow I'm going to be partof that.
I'm going to be the person thatdrops the bad news and I'm also
(18:36):
going to be the person thatstarts the stopwatch and says
okay, the clock is ticking, nowwe have to do this.
So I've sent clients back totalk to their fiancés and say
you need to go tell them firstand then, if you're both on the
same page, come back and we'llstart the process.
Ilona (18:53):
I know and there are situations like in my life this
happened where you meet someoneand they're like yeah sure, I'll
sign a prenup.
What's mine is yours and what'syours is yours, no problem.
And then when it comes to hey,here's the prenup.
Go get a certified family lawspecialist out of the county so
that everything is clear andnegotiated at arm's length.
And then there's daily fightingabout you don't love me, you
(19:15):
don't trust me.
This is not for real and Ithink that's a real thing that
when someone doesn't want tosign a prenup, that you are
going to be faced with.
So there's a lot, there's avery.
It's difficult emotionally tohave to fight every day over
prenup and that could lead tothe breakdown of a relationship
or one of the people just saying, okay, screw it, I don't want
to have a prenup, let's just getmarried and take the risk.
Mila (19:37):
That's what I would anticipate would happen that if
someone presented someone elsewith a prenup, they'd be like
you don't love me, You'realready thinking that we might
get divorced.
Ilona (19:49):
That's not real love.
But you're loved.
Even if someone presents youwith a prenup, you're loved.
This is just to prevent both ofyou from protracted litigation
years down the road.
And you have an opportunity nowto negotiate for yourself.
But if you're not strong enoughto do it yourself, hire a
specialist to negotiate for you.
Mila (20:06):
Well, the fact of the matter is like, most of us have
life insurance and no one'sexpecting to die tomorrow, so
it's kind of the same thing, Imean, although you'll die for
sure and you won't get divorcedfor sure.
Andrew (20:17):
You just want to make sure that you're worth more
alive than you are.
Ilona (20:21):
Prenup is an insurance policy.
Mila (20:23):
People are waiting longer to get married and people are
making more cognizant choices ofwho they marry.
But, as a result, people arealso, you know, financially
stable enough and intelligentenough to think about prenups,
and I think they are becomingmore and more accepted.
And, like I want my kids tohave prenups.
Even if their spouses are moresuccessful than they are, I
(20:47):
would still want them to haveprenups to make sure that they
don't have nasty divorces,because I've seen how nasty
divorces affect kids more thananything else.
If you don't think aboutyourself, think about your kids
and what fights they'll have togo through if you do get split
up.
Ilona (21:01):
But if you are a woman who's going to marry this person
and have children with them andhelp them build their career,
be strong now to negotiate foryourself a good deal.
Don't sign away all your rightsspouse support, even if you
have a lawyer, property rightsnegotiate something so that 10
years down the road, when hepotentially cheats on you,
(21:22):
leaves you or you cheat on him,whatever happens in life that
makes you hate each other,you're not broke and fighting in
court and can't afford a lawyer.
You need to really negotiatethe parts for attorney's fees or
property division for spousesupport.
Child support can be left outbecause that's not negotiable
and cannot be covered in aprenup.
Andrew (21:39):
Let's just say it's called the stereotypical
situation, where the man's gotthe career and he's got these
assets and he's marrying a womanwho is not similarly situated
with him.
It's an opportunity for her torecognize he wants an agreement.
It's likely that he's been toldthat this is not going to be a
(22:00):
take it or leave it endeavor.
This is going to be anegotiation.
Part of her can say I feeloffended or I'm not loved, but
on the other side it's anopportunity for say, hey, I'm
going to take control over myside of this relationship as
well and ask for things, becauseyou're not going to get what
you don't ask for.
Mila (22:20):
Amen.
Andrew (22:21):
Try to put yourself in the other person's shoes and try
to get a sense of why they feelthey need this.
To get a sense of why they feelthey need this and what is it
that they really want to makesure that they're protected on
or they feel comfortable goinginto this relationship with.
Because there's a lot ofcreativity that can be done
within a premarital agreement.
(22:42):
I've had them where they havepayments on anniversaries.
Where a person gets money, theyget to put it in their own
separate account.
They have control over it.
They have sunset clauses.
I've seen premarital agreementsthat after 10 years parties
agree the premarital agreementgoes away entirely.
Mila (23:01):
Wow, you can tolerate me.
Ilona (23:04):
For 10 years you can have gradual support, style support.
The longer you're married, themore you're going to receive
gradual support style support.
Mila (23:09):
The longer you're married, the more you're going to
receive.
I think that the takeaway hereis PSA ladies and gentlemen, if
you're asked for a prenuptialagreement, don't get offended.
Use it as an opportunity tofight back.
Ilona (23:20):
If you're younger, you don't know what to negotiate or
how to negotiate for yourself.
If you're older, you'llprobably have a better idea, but
if someone is not willing topay you money, then what you can
negotiate in a prenup is forthem to buy a life insurance
policy and to pay premiums andfor you to get notices if it's
ever going to lapse and for itto be enforceable against their
(23:42):
estate if they die, and you cannegotiate how much that's going
to be.
There are different tools thatcan be used to negotiate in a
prenup.
If you cannot agree on aspecific division of an asset or
how much money you're going toget in a spouse support for you
to be taken care of.
Andrew (23:56):
This person's not changing their daily habits.
They're just going to go abouttheir same business
transactional routine, whetherthey got married on this date to
this person or not, whetherthey got married on this date to
this person or not.
And what they don't want isthey don't want what they were
going to do anyway to nownecessarily lose half of it or
not.
And so that's usually thethought process that's coming in
(24:19):
, and so sometimes they'll havea business interest on one side,
but they'll still have W-2income coming in from another
source, and the parties willagree that, for spousal support
purposes, whatever businesseswere owned on the date of the
marriage, that whatever passiveincome is received coming in on
(24:41):
that won't be considered forspousal support.
But this other bucket will beused for determining spousal
support and that's generallywhere people are coming into it
and want to protect.
Mila (24:55):
We are going to play.
Red flag, green flag.
Are you ready, ready?
The flags, you'll notice, areglamorous, matching to your very
glamorous blazer.
That I requested.
I requested that you wearsomething glamorous, so so you
like, went above and beyond.
Thank you, I really appreciateit.
We're going to give situationswith regards to prenups and
you're going to let us know ifit's a red flag or a green flag
(25:17):
and why.
Ilona (25:18):
You decide to draft a prenup together with the help of
a mediator, not an attorney,without having independent
counsel.
Red flag or green flag why?
Andrew (25:34):
counsel Red flag or green flag?
Why Green flag?
You've avoided the issue ofconflict of interest with the
attorney, because the mediatoris a neutral Red flag if you
don't have attorneysrepresenting the parties.
It can make any negotiationregarding spousal support
unenforceable on its face, andit can still also require that
now each party who'sunrepresented has to prepare a
document in layman's termsexplaining what that premarital
(25:57):
agreement means for the otherperson.
Ilona (26:00):
And most likely, the mediator is going to use some
boilerplate agreement that'sequal in terms of the waiver of
rights as to both parties andit's not going to have any
special provisions that mayaddress your specific needs if
you don't have an attorney.
Andrew (26:12):
I would say it's more red flag than green flag.
Mila (26:14):
Yeah, here's the next one your partner refuses to discuss
finances before marriage.
Andrew (26:21):
Big red flag.
Mila (26:21):
Red flag.
Why?
Andrew (26:23):
There has to be transparency in the relationship
.
There has to be, and I usuallydon't tell my clients.
I find it awful when, evengoing through a divorce and you
ask them what they made lastyear and they don't know and
they didn't even look at the taxreturn and they weren't allowed
to look at the tax return.
I find that awful.
(26:43):
So people going into a marriagethat don't discuss finances are
, I think, setting themselves upfor failure.
Mila (26:49):
Basically, and you talked about fiduciary duties
beautifully.
It was very powerful to thinkabout.
You know what marriage meansbesides the law, like the duty
you have to your spouse.
If you can't have even therespect to discuss your finances
before you get married, how areyou going to ever meet that
standard after you're married?
Ilona (27:10):
See, that's a standard in California.
If you think of marriage backcenturies ago, what was the
point of marriage?
You have a ceremony, you livetogether, you raise a family
together.
There were no fiduciary duties,there was no dividing assets or
divorce court.
Andrew (27:24):
Marriage is not even allowed to own property in some
states.
Ilona (27:26):
Right Marriage is an institution developed into
certain laws which are differentin every state and in
California.
Andrew (27:33):
I would say it's definitely progressive compared
to other states.
Ilona (27:38):
What about keeping separate bank accounts once
you're married?
Andrew (27:41):
I can give a green flag, I can give a red flag for it.
Ultimately, I think there needsto be transparency.
So if you're going to haveseparate bank accounts, that's
fine, but if the other personwants to know what's in your
bank account at any given time,then you give them access to it.
Ilona (27:58):
What about a clause in a premarital agreement that
penalizes weight gain?
Andrew (28:03):
The red flag.
Mila (28:04):
Is that even conscionable?
Andrew (28:07):
I don't think that any punishment for putting on or
losing weight would beenforceable by any judge.
I would love to find the judgewho would find that enforceable.
Mila (28:18):
By the way, guys, this is from an actual prenup.
Andrew (28:21):
Something like that really goes to show you the
control that's trying to beexerted by one person on the
other.
So you start thinking aboutthings like coercion.
Undue influence.
Boy, you've got something inthere that controls what your
body looks like.
Mila (28:38):
I would take the girl in the room and be like run, girl,
run.
Andrew (28:44):
I would put a red flag on it.
I would say that you areputting the entirety of your
premarital agreement at risk byhaving that kind of control over
them.
Ilona (28:52):
That paragraph would be unenforceable, but the rest of
the agreement, if done rightwith an attorney with proper
disclosures, would beenforceable, don't you think?
Mila (29:00):
I would argue if I was her attorney, how could the
agreement be enforceable,because obviously my client was
not in a mental state to agreeto any type of agreement if she
agreed to this clause?
Ilona (29:11):
but if a lawyer signed off?
Andrew (29:12):
I think that it goes toward the overall coercion side
of it and the and theheavy-handedness which I think
permeates an entire, the entireagreement what if it applies to
both sides?
Mila (29:24):
plus, like men have easier time, like not keeping body fat
on.
Men don't have to have childrenwhere you're going to gain 30
pounds at the minimum.
Sorry, ladies, like, believe itor not, that's a thing.
So I think if, even if it wason both sides, it'd still be.
Andrew (29:41):
Everyone gains weight during their relationship, so
it's kind of I couldn't putweight on to save my life in my
20s and 30s and I can't take itoff to save my life in my 20s
and 30s and I can't take it offto save my life right now.
Mila (29:51):
So funny story on my Facebook group for gym rats.
One of the posts was like okay,ladies and gentlemen, what's
your quickest weight losssupplement that you've used?
No fat burner supplement.
Ilona (30:08):
And a bunch of people wrote divorce.
For me it was work Because whenyou're in trial time.
Andrew (30:12):
When you do family law you have no time to eat.
Sometimes I always seem to eatplenty between the hours of like
7 and 10 at night.
Makes up for the rest of theday.
Mila (30:18):
And isn't there like a statutory requirement that has
to be a certain amount of timein advance?
Andrew (30:26):
I've seen people sign their premarital agreements on
the day they get married.
They go to a notary thatmorning, they sign off, they get
married that afternoon.
There's nothing wrong with thatand I see that happen many
times.
I've had clients that have goneto like Catalina, and they've
just made sure everything wasdone in advance and they waited
seven full calendar days betweenwhen we confirmed they had the
(30:49):
final version and then, in thatsame email we've confirmed that
final version.
We say now we're going to waita full seven days.
That doesn't include the day yougot it, it's not going to
include the day you signed it.
We're going to give a fullseven days, at least in between.
And that way everyone knowsjust relax, don't think about it
(31:12):
, just have a cooling off periodfor this, this period of time.
And then I put a date.
You cannot sign this documentbefore this date.
Um and so to answer yourquestion, I mean there's no.
There is a requirement withregard to when you have to have
the final version before yousign it, but there's no
requirement before, like whenthe wedding is.
Ilona (31:33):
It has to be at least seven calendar days from the
time you were presented with thefinal version of the agreement
advised to seek legal counseland the time the agreement was
signed.
The agreement was signed, butthen if it's after January 1st
2020, then it has to be sevendays from the time you were
(31:54):
first presented with the finalagreement and the time it was
signed.
There is no requirement thatyou have legal counsel at least
seven court days.
Andrew (32:02):
If anyone's interested in getting a premarital
agreement, they should go readthe statute.
You can Google it online, itpops right up.
Or if somebody anticipates that, hey, I've got a premarital
agreement, my marriage lookslike it's falling apart, you may
want to go take a look at thestatute and just read it for
yourself as to whether there'sanything that jumps out at you
(32:26):
that tells you you've got someissues with regard to your
premarital agreement.
One of the reasons why I insiston having attorneys on both
sides and competent attorneys onboth sides if I'm going to be
involved is that there's aportion of that statute that if
there's not an attorneyrepresenting someone
(32:52):
representing someone, then thatperson has to be informed in
layman's terms of what all theconsequences are of the
premarital agreement.
So I would not only be almostfighting with myself because I'm
representing one party.
Now I have to draft a wholeseparate document.
That's not the premaritalagreement.
So I've drafted a separatedocument and explained to the
(33:12):
other side what the benefits are, what the negatives are, what
the pitfalls are, and I wouldnever wish that upon myself.
Ilona (33:22):
Yeah, because if you're in litigation later, even if
you're retired, you could besubpoenaed and put on the stand
to defend the letter you wroteand what you didn't put in there
, and what you put in there andwhat you should have put in
there.
So you don't want to be in thatposition.
Mila (33:34):
Guys, I'm about to have a panic attack as, like a civilian
hearing, this I'm justimagining like a couple like
really excited for their wedding, just from a pragmatic
standpoint.
They're excited for theirwedding and they're like, oh
wait, let's do this.
And they have to get attorneysand look at each other's assets
and being like, if we getdivorced, what am I going to get
?
Ilona (33:54):
It's not pretty and normally, I have to say, women
get dramatic about it.
Andrew (33:59):
It's also interesting that I find that just as many
women want premarital agreementsas men, and so it's really not
a gender-weighted endeavor.
Ilona (34:10):
I think it protects women too.
It depends, if.
I guess I dealt with people whowere brought over from another
country because I speak multiplelanguages.
So in that case, if they canwiggle out of signing, one is
better for them, because theyreally have no leverage to
negotiate the terms.
It's like either get your greencard and get married and you
stay here and your K-1 visa getsextended and you sign this, or
(34:31):
we're not getting married andyou're going back to your
country.
Andrew (34:34):
And I find a lot of times it's not necessarily one
of the parties that wants apremarital agreement.
It's their family members thatare insisting that they get a
premarital agreement.
Mila (34:45):
My kids are having premarital agreements, so it
could be others that areinsisting.
Andrew (34:51):
It could be parents that have insisted upon it, which
creates other other touchyissues because, uh, as a
drafting attorney, my obligationand my fiduciary duty runs to
my client.
It doesn't run to their familymembers.
Ilona (35:04):
But from a family's perspective, if you have
businesses and private companiesyou don't want and your
children may have some sort ofinterest in them, you don't want
to be involved in their divorcelater without a prenup and
become a party to their divorceproceeding and be joined.
So I would absolutely insist onsomeone having a prenup if
(35:26):
their business is involved.
Andrew (35:28):
And I found that people are usually pretty amenable and
pretty willing to negotiatethose terms.
Very rarely have I ever hadsomeone come in and they're just
like this is it, they won'tsign it, we're not getting
married.
I can't remember the last timethat I had someone that came in
that just was like it's a takeit or leave it type of thing
Because there's no point in takeit or leave it.
(35:48):
You come to me and you sayyou've got take it or leave it.
Then I'll say I'm not eventaking you as a client because
there's no point to it.
Ilona (35:55):
Because I speak Russian.
I used to have a lot of Russianwomen that are getting married
to American citizens come to meto review premarital contracts
and often it was take it orleave it.
It wasn't very negotiable.
I often refuse actually most ofthe time I just refuse to sign
them.
(36:15):
I'm not willing to put mysignature on it, they're not
willing to change anything, andthen I tell them if you're ever
going to, if you are going toend up signing it against my
advice, then if you'relitigating in the future, then
perhaps you may need thatdocumentation that I refuse to
sign it.
Let's talk about postnaps.
Postmarital contracts is acontract that you enter into
with your spouse after you'remarried, and the difference is
(36:36):
that once you're married, younow have fiduciary duties.
Fiduciary duties are the dutiesof highest good faith and fair
dealing and obligation todisclose all documents and
information upon demand, whichyou don't have that obligation
before you get married and whatAndrew and I like to do when we
do prenups or postnups is listall real estate, all bank
(36:58):
accounts, all retirement plans,credit card, debt, investment
accounts.
Anything you may have,including business interest,
needs to be disclosed because itdoesn't hurt you before you're
married to disclose what youhave.
It only protects you to outlinethe assets that belong to you
only before the marriage.
I litigated a case where I setaside two post-marital contracts
(37:21):
because they went to the sameattorney and each of them had a
consultation with the sameattorney who then drafted it and
they signed a waiver.
But there was so much on theline and there were a lot of
blurred lines between theattorney's communication with
each party that it resulted inmillions of dollars that one
(37:42):
party thought was all his andended up not being In layman's
terms, that means that you nowhave a duty to look out for the
other person's best interestreally before you look out for
your own.
Andrew (37:53):
Before you got married you can look out for your own
and handle it that way, but onceyou get married you have that
obligation of good faith andfair dealing to really look out
for the other person's bestinterest before you look for
your own self-interest.
Ilona (38:07):
Nobody does that guys.
Andrew (38:09):
But that's really what the duty is.
So if you start thinking aboutthat when we're talking now
about post-marital agreementsand you have that obligation to
each other, even though thereare fewer technical rules for
post-marital agreements.
The reason there are fewertechnical reasons is because
this fiduciary duty is so great.
(38:31):
It doesn't exist before you'remarried.
That's why we have to havethese really technical
provisions in a premaritalagreement, because there is no
legal obligation to the otherperson to treat them fairly or
anything like that.
So we have to create those Nowthat you're married.
Now we've got those fiduciaryduties.
Mila (38:50):
What type of situations do you see this come up in?
Andrew (38:53):
I see it usually in two.
One is they couldn't get thepremarital agreement done and
they don't want to change thewedding date, so they go through
with it.
The fact that they're stillwilling to even talk about a
postmarital agreement kind ofleads to the conclusion that
they were both on the same page.
They just couldn't get it done.
The other is that the marriageis really suffering but they're
(39:14):
not ready to call it quits.
Other is that the marriage isreally suffering but they're not
ready to call it quits, and somany times it's used as hey,
we're either doing apost-marital agreement or I'm
filing for divorce.
In my opinion, I think that itis used many times as leverage
to basically say, hey, if you'renot willing to, if you want to
stay in this and you want me towork on this, I don't have a
(39:36):
whole lot of confidence in it,but I will keep working on it.
But I need some protectionsright now, and so that's one of
the main reasons that I've seenfor post-marital agreements.
Mila (39:47):
I read some of finances are the number one reason for
fighting in marriages.
Andrew (39:52):
I would probably agree that that's accurate.
Most of the issues are controlissues.
There's quite a bit of domesticviolence.
Mila (39:59):
And.
Andrew (40:00):
I can't speak for everybody else's practice, is it
just?
That's where, that's where mycareer has taken me?
My experience has taken me thatI tend to attract high conflict
, high asset, highly litigatedcases.
It's, you know, it's a certaintype of case that I'd say most
family law attorneys justcouldn't stomach.
Mila (40:21):
But you're so happy all the time.
Well, he's happily married,yeah.
Andrew (40:25):
I'm happily married.
Mila (40:26):
How do you leave all that stuff and continue on with your
life and not get emotionallydrawn into any of that?
I struggle with that as anattorney.
Andrew (40:36):
Well, I've developed certain systems for myself over
the years and that may soundkind of mechanical but for like.
One of them is that we're onthe 21st floor.
So I got 21 floors to wipe myjob out of my brain and focus on
my family.
Mila (40:52):
I love that.
I mean it sounds mechanical,but you need that as an attorney
.
You need that because, guys,you don't want an attorney to
come in and you know you haveall this trauma because people
trauma dump, people trauma dumpand family law, people trauma
dump and employment all the time.
Andrew (41:09):
But that should also just be for anybody out there.
When you're at work you're,you're selling your time for
money, but when you're no longeron the clock like for me I'm
thinking from floors 21 toground level.
I'm thinking what are we doingtonight?
What are we having for dinner?
Are we going someplace?
What do the kids need?
What does my wife need?
What's the dog need?
These are the things that I'mstarting to focus on.
(41:31):
So by get to my car, I'vetransitioned from work to family
.
I think that that other peopledoesn't matter what profession
you're in, that will help withyour marriage.
Yeah, now you can have reallylike, great experience at work
and you can focus on it.
Mila (41:46):
Yeah, great experience at home there was this man at my
gym one time.
I'll never forget this he's.
He was like a 65 year old man.
He's been married for 35 yearsand three kids and he told me
one time he's like if people putas much work in at home as they
did at work, everyone would bea lot happier.
Andrew (42:06):
That's true.
Ilona (42:07):
You're a divorce attorney , doing it for 30 years.
Why do you believe in theinstitution of marriage,
considering all the Californialaws that make it so painful to
go through a divorce?
Andrew (42:17):
My parents were married for 52 years.
My grandparents were marriedfor, I think, 60 some years.
It's just.
It's how I was raised and Ithink that it is a beautiful I
wouldn't even call it aninstitution, it's just.
(42:38):
It's a beautiful promise toanother person.
Obviously, things that havehappened to other people over
the years have required us tohave laws and things like that
that are more protective,because back in the day, you
know, when that promise fellapart, people weren't very
protective and it did leave somepeople that were out without
(43:02):
anything.
Just because we have laws thathandle how we handle divorces
doesn't mean marriage is, youknow, aside from having kids,
you know, the most beautifulthing.
Mila (43:13):
And I think honestly, on the contrary, you were saying I
hope I didn't scare people outof getting married.
I think, on the contrary, Ithink the more you talk about
these things, the more you cometo acceptance of the fact that
marriage is a beautiful thing,but it's also very complicated
and it's better to protectyourself if you're going to do
it, because ignorance is notbliss.
There are complications that gointo life.
(43:36):
It is rough out here, and themore you know, the more you talk
about these things, the moreyou understand how to protect
yourself.
Andrew (43:45):
Well said.
Ilona (43:46):
Yes, protect yourself at all times.
Yes.
Mila (43:51):
Thanks for spending time with us today and talking about
the legal side of love.
Ilona (43:57):
And to our audience.
If you enjoyed thisconversation and it resonated
with you, please share it.
Knowledge is power.
Mila (44:04):
Like your weekly dose of glam.
Don't forget to hit subscribe.
Ilona (44:08):
It's law, it's life, it's the Glamorous Grind.
Is your fiancé on board with this, or are you going to
drop a bomb?
Mila (00:04):
on them.
Prenuptial agreements do help,because you know the truth is,
divorce is a likelihood for mostpeople.
Ilona (00:12):
But you're loved, even if someone presents you with a
prenup you're loved.
This is just to prevent both ofyou from protracted litigation
years down the road.
Mila (00:21):
Welcome to the Glamorous Grind where grit meets glamour
and the law is always in style.
Ilona (00:27):
Today we're diving into a topic that's rarely discussed
openly prenups.
Mila (00:31):
Do weddings get canceled because of prenups?
Andrew (00:34):
If your fiancee digs their heels in and says "'I'm
not signing it', what are yougoing to do"?
Ilona (00:39):
Whether you're planning a wedding or just dreaming about
one Another option is not to getmarried and live together.
Mila (00:46):
Understanding the legal side of love is crucial.
Andrew (00:50):
Maybe in the end she's dodging the bullet.
Ilona (00:52):
So let's talk how to protect your heart and your
assets.
In Russian they say любовь зла,полюбыша козла means love is
mean you can fall in love with agoat.
We're excited to have ourpartner, Andrew Rosenberry, on
(01:20):
our show today.
Andrew is a certified familylaw specialist and one of the
toughest litigators inCalifornia.
Andrew, can you please tell ourviewers about yourself?
Andrew (01:28):
Sure, I've been practicing law for a little over
30 years.
I tripped into family law.
It wasn't something that Ichose.
I grew up in the days of LA law, where there was a guy named
Arnie Becker and he was thefamily law attorney in the firm.
And Arnie was just.
Everyone just knew he was justa sleazebag.
So I was probably six monthsinto my practice I got a
(01:51):
referral from a friend of mine.
It was a five-week arrangedmarriage that took us a year to
litigate.
Fortunately and unfortunatelyfor me, the attorney on the
other side was probably one ofthe top five litigators in the
state of california and he justenjoyed spending that whole year
just screwing with me.
(02:12):
Basically.
And after we litigated for ayear and did a full day trial,
um he, uh.
He called me five days laterand I thought thought what's
this jerk want?
And he said I think you oughtto come work for me and it was
such an epiphany for me that hecould treat me that way.
(02:33):
But he was watching how I wasconducting myself as a new
attorney and he was sizing me upfor what for me was like
complete change in my career theamount of skills that are
required to be a high-levelfamily law attorney.
It takes decades to developthat.
Ilona (02:54):
Yes, you have to know contract law, criminal law, to
be able to prosecute contempt.
Mila (03:00):
Bankruptcy.
Ilona (03:00):
Family law, bankruptcy, there's everything.
All right.
Let's talk prenups andpostnupsups.
I love litigating postnuptialagreements and you're the guy at
our office who's an expert onprenups and writing them up.
They all go to you right now.
What do you love about it?
Andrew (03:15):
the thing about writing prenups that I like is that you
you can take a lot of the theangst and the anxiety that some
people have going into theirmarriage and just take it out
Whenever.
I'm approached with a you knowsomeone comes in and they want a
premarital agreement.
They've got a lot of nervessurrounding their finances, so
(03:35):
it could be a first marriage.
It could be that they had areally bad experience with a
prior divorce and they justdon't want that hanging over
their head a prior divorce andthey just don't want that
hanging over their head.
And so, if done right and youhave both people coming into it
on the same page, it's nice tosee that they're able to wipe
(04:00):
away this anxiety from this partof their relationship and then
really focus on the fun part ofhaving this phenomenal wedding
and party.
Mila (04:05):
As someone who's been married for almost 13 years,
believe it or not, I feel like13 years ago prenups were crazy
and a lot of like society didnot really accept that.
People would go like, oh,you're going in and you're
already contemplating divorceand that's why you want this
agreement.
But now it's so much moreaccepted and I don't know if
(04:28):
it's because people are gettingmarried when they're older so
they have a lot more to lose ormore that they've built up, or
just people are just becomingmore accepting of the fact that
divorce is possible and it'sbetter to prepare yourself on
both sides, because I think thatyou know the general theory and
(04:48):
when people think prenups, theythink, oh, it protects the
higher wage earner, but I thinkin a lot of situations it also
protects the person who maybeearns less wages because they
don't have to deal withlitigation costs of divorce.
If that happens, they alreadyknow what they'll be entitled to
.
Andrew (05:07):
It's a great point because most premarital
negotiations start off on veryfar extremes, where one person
gets everything and the otherperson gets nothing.
And the beauty of the premaritalagreement is in the negotiation
that goes through anddeveloping ultimately what their
(05:27):
expectations are going to be,not while they're married, but
in the unfortunate event thatsomehow it doesn't work out.
So a good point that you make,which is it's not all about
protecting, but it's really manytimes what we'll call the
disadvantaged spouse and that isthe person that comes into the
marriage with less or many timesit's the woman that there's an
(05:51):
expectation that they're goingto be having children, she's
going to forego a career, andthis is the perfect opportunity
to really set the expectations.
For if we go down the road ofwinding up our marriage, I'm not
going to have to go through allthis hard-fought litigation
(06:14):
just to make sure that I've gotenough to live at the marital
standard for a reasonable periodof time.
Make sure that our kids areliving in homes that are
relatively situated, so youdon't have one parent that's got
this phenomenal house and thenyou've got another parent living
in a two bedroom apartment.
They're squeezing everybodyinto it.
(06:35):
So that's a great opportunityfor them to negotiate those
types of terms.
Ilona (06:42):
And you can't waive the right to receive child support,
so that's always going to be onthe table.
Mila (06:47):
I do have a question on that point.
Normally and I have so manyquestions because I never dealt
with this area of the law, butnormally when people come in for
prenups, are both partiesrepresented separately or are
neither of the partiesrepresented.
They give you their terms andyou kind of serve as a mediator.
Andrew (07:06):
I require that both parties have attorneys with
experience in drafting ornegotiating premarital
agreements.
Mila (07:13):
Who pays for the attorneys , because I feel like most
situations, probably one personis the one pushing the prenup
and it's not fair that the otherperson has to pay to be
represented.
Andrew (07:22):
It's usually the person that is wanting the premarital
agreement will pay for the costof both.
Ilona (07:28):
But not directly.
They will give money to theirfuture spouse so that spouse can
pay directly, to avoid anyconflict of interest or
appearance thereof.
Andrew (07:36):
Sure, it's important that, not only just from
appearance's sake, but inactuality, both parties are able
to choose the attorney of theirselection.
If I'm representing the personthat is, for example, that has
the majority of the assets goinginto the negotiation, I'll make
sure that their fiancé has thelink for all the certified
(08:02):
family law specialists in SanDiego or whatever county they
happen to be in, and let themknow that there's no limitation
on who they want to hire.
Ilona (08:13):
Because if you go to someone who's a general
practitioner, they'll charge 500bucks just to quickly meet with
you and sign off on theagreement without negotiating it
.
And then you hope that in thefuture you can argue that they
had legal counsel andrepresentation.
It can probably be challengedbecause one this attorney may
have not explained everything tothem in writing, the risks they
(08:36):
may not speak the language thatthe party speaks, and often it
happens to non-English speakers.
Let's say you have a bride fromanother country on K-1 visa.
You're like okay, let's go to acheap lawyer and pay them to
sign off on this, or let's go acouple of times.
That'll probably be challengedin litigation later.
Mila (08:52):
That goes to my next question of, because I know
you've litigated these a lot, soyou've taken them to court and
argued that something has beenunenforceable.
What type of factors do judgesand courts look at to determine
if a prenuptial agreement isenforceable or when they throw
it out and say it's not a validagreement?
Ilona (09:14):
Voluntariness.
You know where.
Did you enter into thisagreement voluntarily or you
were under duress?
If you didn't have a lawyer andyou waived your spouse support
rights, then that would beunenforceable.
Andrew (09:24):
In preparing the premarital agreements.
I look at it from the sameperspective that ALONA does,
which is, what would it looklike on the litigation side of
it?
And so you try to approach itfrom avoiding those pitfalls
that could lead the parties intofurther litigation.
It's did you have theopportunity arm's length
(09:44):
negotiation, no pressure, to getthis done.
That's why it's so importantfor attorneys when clients come
in and they're talking, theywant a premarital agreement.
You have to know well, when isyour wedding date?
Is this a fixed wedding?
Is this date fixed?
Have the invitations been sentout?
(10:05):
Are people coming in from outof town?
Has there been a bacheloretteparty?
I mean, if someone comes in andthey're getting married in
three weeks or four weeks, Irespectfully turn them away.
I think the sweet spot is ifsomeone comes to me and they've
got a wedding date that is fourto six months out.
(10:26):
I think that's kind of a sweetspot because, generally speaking
, you know you find out at theinitial consultation.
Is your fiancé on board withthis or are you going to drop a
bomb?
Mila (10:39):
on them?
Do weddings get canceledbecause of prenups?
Andrew (10:42):
I've only had a couple that canceled.
Mila (10:45):
Okay, that's not bad.
That makes me happy.
Andrew (10:46):
But it's a conversation that I have to have with them,
which is look, if your fiancedigs their heels in and says I'm
not signing it, what are yougoing to do?
Are you going to just bite thebullet and get married and hope
that you can negotiate apost-marital agreement which
they're no longer obligated tosign, or are you going to move
the wedding date out?
I've had marriages that justnever ended up happening.
(11:10):
They just the relationshipended.
I've had them.
I've seen people move theirwedding dates out.
Mila (11:15):
To make sure they were.
Andrew (11:21):
And in fact, when they move, the wedding dates out and
they ultimately sign apremarital agreement, it only
makes that premarital agreementstronger, because they recognize
that they needed more time.
Ilona (11:29):
And I want to add that premarital agreement under the
law is only effective uponmarriage.
So if you have this contractand you choose not to get
married but continuecohabitating and living together
, it doesn't take effect.
So, for the listeners, if youare living with someone and you
want to protect yourself fromwhat's called a Marvin action
that's a breach of oralagreement and you have a
(11:53):
two-year statute of limitationafter your breakup with your
boyfriend or girlfriend, thenyou'd want to have cohabitation
agreements that don't go afteryou for verbal promises made
that you didn't keep.
Mila (12:07):
From the other end.
Prenuptial agreements do helpbecause, you know, the truth is,
divorce is a likelihood formost people, like more than 50%
of people get divorced right.
So if it does happen, it'sextremely difficult.
So this is a way to protectboth parties, to make sure that
everything's fair.
Ilona (12:27):
Another option is not to get married and live together
and you can have childrentogether, but in your
cohabitation agreement you couldagree on how assets acquired
during your relationship may beowned, whether or not you're
entitled or the title controls,or you know whether you're going
to have bank accounts togetherand if those joint bank accounts
(12:47):
are going to be 50% owned byboth of you, regardless of who
puts in the money.
So there are ways to reach anagreement as to your property
and co-ownership without beingmarried.
Mila (12:58):
I have a logistical question and maybe this is a
dumb question, but as a layperson I've always wondered this
.
I understand that prenuptialagreements take into account
what was previously owned by theperson and by each side and
what they can reasonably make,what's anticipated to be made.
But what if, let's say, one ofthe parties opens up a business
(13:21):
during the course of themarriage?
Can the prenuptial agreementaccount, or should it, or does
it always account for potentialhigher earning capacity later
down the line?
And how is that even enforcedby a court?
If you can't really anticipatethat, what if the other spouse
played a part in helping growthat business and then they're
(13:45):
not entitled to any of that orthe support that they provided
to the spouse while they grewthe business?
Can they sign off their rightsto ever benefiting from that
business later on?
Absolutely.
Andrew (13:56):
Really, and most premarital agreements are 30, 40
pages long, and the reason isbecause they take into account
all of those little items thatyou hit, plus a whole bunch more
, and so every possible legaltheory that community property
could attach to is addressedwithin the premarital agreement.
(14:19):
How can you waive?
Mila (14:20):
the rights to that Like as a woman.
If you anticipate you're goingto be a stay at home mom, how
can you waive the rights to thatLike as a woman if you
anticipate you're going to be astay-at-home mom, how can you
waive your rights to like havingany rights into a potential
business that your husband couldstart?
Ilona (14:31):
You have to negotiate in front before you sign the
agreement or it's all waived.
Generally it'll say bothparties waive any and all rights
, any businesses and incomethat's earned during the
marriage, except for a jointaccount they may open together
and decide to put money into.
Andrew (14:46):
It's the least romantic part of the premarital agreement
because ultimately, nobody isrequired to marry another
individual.
That is completely voluntary.
And if someone says I can onlyforesee myself getting into that
permanency of a relationshipwith you, if we have these other
(15:08):
things, then they have theright to do that.
And keep in mind, premaritalagreements are probably a
fraction of a fraction of cases.
I don't think that they're aswidespread as people think.
But of course, if you knowsomeone that's got a premarital
agreement, then everybody's anexpert in it.
But ultimately people don'thave to get married.
(15:30):
If one person doesn't want toget married unless they have
these contingencies, then maybethey should go a different
direction.
Maybe a woman that is lookingat it from a hey, I'm going to
love this man for the rest of mylife and I want to have his
children and I want to raisethem and I want him to be the
most successful person there is.
And in the meantime I don'tnecessarily want to put myself
(15:53):
in a position where I put myselfat risk and not being able to
support myself or support thekids and I'm going to forego a
lot of things.
Maybe in the end she's dodgingthe bullet.
Maybe that's not the rightperson for her, if that person
is going to require all thesecontingencies.
Mila (16:08):
Yeah, but love is blind.
In Russian they say Любовь зла,полюбушка зла.
It means Love is mean you canfall in love with a goat.
Andrew (16:22):
Facts Most states that's not permissible.
Mila (16:24):
I just feel like I don't know.
I just feel like I don't know,I just feel like when you're in
that phase actually an ass youcan fall out with an ass.
That would be yeah a bettertranslation.
Like an ad.
It's like the goat I don't knowit.
Just.
It just seems difficult toreally anticipate these things
and then be really be able toplan for these things.
Ilona (16:42):
But I guess I think it's easy to anticipate those things.
Everybody is.
When you're young, you thinkyou know we're in love and
everything will be great andwe'll be together forever.
And you see, you know heartsflying around you.
That's not real life.
Eventually, after a few yearsof marriage, you have children.
You have real life problems andyou're not with the same person
(17:02):
that you married, because lifeis now in a different stage.
You either are in the rightmindset and mature enough to
advance through those stages andtolerate it, or you still have
different expectations or not onboard.
And what?
Over 50% of marriages end up indivorce.
Did those 50% get married,thinking they're gonna be part
of that statistic?
(17:22):
No, but what percentage ofthose 50% who are getting
divorced actually have prenups?
Maybe 5% to 10%.
Andrew (17:31):
Not even probably, and I think statistically, your
prenups are usually going tofall within people that are in
their 30s and 40s.
Ilona (17:40):
I had a client who retained me to do a prenup, who
needed a prenup big time, but heended up getting married with
that one because his fiance wasvery, very hurt by the proposal
of having one.
Andrew (17:53):
And that happens a lot and that's what I was saying is
is having that conversation with, with the client is a does the,
does your fiance, man or woman?
Do they know that you're asking, that you want a premarital
agreement?
I would say four out of fivetimes they've already had the
conversation, so this is notgoing to be something that is
(18:15):
foreign to them, but every nowand then they say, well, I
wouldn't even talk to them aboutit.
And I usually say you need togo talk to them first, then come
back and see me.
Obviously, the client has beenup front with their fiancé and
now somehow I'm going to be partof that.
I'm going to be the person thatdrops the bad news and I'm also
(18:36):
going to be the person thatstarts the stopwatch and says
okay, the clock is ticking, nowwe have to do this.
So I've sent clients back totalk to their fiancés and say
you need to go tell them firstand then, if you're both on the
same page, come back and we'llstart the process.
Ilona (18:53):
I know and there are situations like in my life this
happened where you meet someoneand they're like yeah sure, I'll
sign a prenup.
What's mine is yours and what'syours is yours, no problem.
And then when it comes to hey,here's the prenup.
Go get a certified family lawspecialist out of the county so
that everything is clear andnegotiated at arm's length.
And then there's daily fightingabout you don't love me, you
(19:15):
don't trust me.
This is not for real and Ithink that's a real thing that
when someone doesn't want tosign a prenup, that you are
going to be faced with.
So there's a lot, there's avery.
It's difficult emotionally tohave to fight every day over
prenup and that could lead tothe breakdown of a relationship
or one of the people just saying, okay, screw it, I don't want
to have a prenup, let's just getmarried and take the risk.
Mila (19:37):
That's what I would anticipate would happen that if
someone presented someone elsewith a prenup, they'd be like
you don't love me, You'realready thinking that we might
get divorced.
Ilona (19:49):
That's not real love.
But you're loved.
Even if someone presents youwith a prenup, you're loved.
This is just to prevent both ofyou from protracted litigation
years down the road.
And you have an opportunity nowto negotiate for yourself.
But if you're not strong enoughto do it yourself, hire a
specialist to negotiate for you.
Mila (20:06):
Well, the fact of the matter is like, most of us have
life insurance and no one'sexpecting to die tomorrow, so
it's kind of the same thing, Imean, although you'll die for
sure and you won't get divorcedfor sure.
Andrew (20:17):
You just want to make sure that you're worth more
alive than you are.
Ilona (20:21):
Prenup is an insurance policy.
Mila (20:23):
People are waiting longer to get married and people are
making more cognizant choices ofwho they marry.
But, as a result, people arealso, you know, financially
stable enough and intelligentenough to think about prenups,
and I think they are becomingmore and more accepted.
And, like I want my kids tohave prenups.
Even if their spouses are moresuccessful than they are, I
(20:47):
would still want them to haveprenups to make sure that they
don't have nasty divorces,because I've seen how nasty
divorces affect kids more thananything else.
If you don't think aboutyourself, think about your kids
and what fights they'll have togo through if you do get split
up.
Ilona (21:01):
But if you are a woman who's going to marry this person
and have children with them andhelp them build their career,
be strong now to negotiate foryourself a good deal.
Don't sign away all your rightsspouse support, even if you
have a lawyer, property rightsnegotiate something so that 10
years down the road, when hepotentially cheats on you,
(21:22):
leaves you or you cheat on him,whatever happens in life that
makes you hate each other,you're not broke and fighting in
court and can't afford a lawyer.
You need to really negotiatethe parts for attorney's fees or
property division for spousesupport.
Child support can be left outbecause that's not negotiable
and cannot be covered in aprenup.
Andrew (21:39):
Let's just say it's called the stereotypical
situation, where the man's gotthe career and he's got these
assets and he's marrying a womanwho is not similarly situated
with him.
It's an opportunity for her torecognize he wants an agreement.
It's likely that he's been toldthat this is not going to be a
(22:00):
take it or leave it endeavor.
This is going to be anegotiation.
Part of her can say I feeloffended or I'm not loved, but
on the other side it's anopportunity for say, hey, I'm
going to take control over myside of this relationship as
well and ask for things, becauseyou're not going to get what
you don't ask for.
Mila (22:20):
Amen.
Andrew (22:21):
Try to put yourself in the other person's shoes and try
to get a sense of why they feelthey need this.
To get a sense of why they feelthey need this and what is it
that they really want to makesure that they're protected on
or they feel comfortable goinginto this relationship with.
Because there's a lot ofcreativity that can be done
within a premarital agreement.
(22:42):
I've had them where they havepayments on anniversaries.
Where a person gets money, theyget to put it in their own
separate account.
They have control over it.
They have sunset clauses.
I've seen premarital agreementsthat after 10 years parties
agree the premarital agreementgoes away entirely.
Mila (23:01):
Wow, you can tolerate me.
Ilona (23:04):
For 10 years you can have gradual support, style support.
The longer you're married, themore you're going to receive
gradual support style support.
Mila (23:09):
The longer you're married, the more you're going to
receive.
I think that the takeaway hereis PSA ladies and gentlemen, if
you're asked for a prenuptialagreement, don't get offended.
Use it as an opportunity tofight back.
Ilona (23:20):
If you're younger, you don't know what to negotiate or
how to negotiate for yourself.
If you're older, you'llprobably have a better idea, but
if someone is not willing topay you money, then what you can
negotiate in a prenup is forthem to buy a life insurance
policy and to pay premiums andfor you to get notices if it's
ever going to lapse and for itto be enforceable against their
(23:42):
estate if they die, and you cannegotiate how much that's going
to be.
There are different tools thatcan be used to negotiate in a
prenup.
If you cannot agree on aspecific division of an asset or
how much money you're going toget in a spouse support for you
to be taken care of.
Andrew (23:56):
This person's not changing their daily habits.
They're just going to go abouttheir same business
transactional routine, whetherthey got married on this date to
this person or not, whetherthey got married on this date to
this person or not.
And what they don't want isthey don't want what they were
going to do anyway to nownecessarily lose half of it or
not.
And so that's usually thethought process that's coming in
(24:19):
, and so sometimes they'll havea business interest on one side,
but they'll still have W-2income coming in from another
source, and the parties willagree that, for spousal support
purposes, whatever businesseswere owned on the date of the
marriage, that whatever passiveincome is received coming in on
(24:41):
that won't be considered forspousal support.
But this other bucket will beused for determining spousal
support and that's generallywhere people are coming into it
and want to protect.
Mila (24:55):
We are going to play.
Red flag, green flag.
Are you ready, ready?
The flags, you'll notice, areglamorous, matching to your very
glamorous blazer.
That I requested.
I requested that you wearsomething glamorous, so so you
like, went above and beyond.
Thank you, I really appreciateit.
We're going to give situationswith regards to prenups and
you're going to let us know ifit's a red flag or a green flag
(25:17):
and why.
Ilona (25:18):
You decide to draft a prenup together with the help of
a mediator, not an attorney,without having independent
counsel.
Red flag or green flag why?
Andrew (25:34):
counsel Red flag or green flag?
Why Green flag?
You've avoided the issue ofconflict of interest with the
attorney, because the mediatoris a neutral Red flag if you
don't have attorneysrepresenting the parties.
It can make any negotiationregarding spousal support
unenforceable on its face, andit can still also require that
now each party who'sunrepresented has to prepare a
document in layman's termsexplaining what that premarital
(25:57):
agreement means for the otherperson.
Ilona (26:00):
And most likely, the mediator is going to use some
boilerplate agreement that'sequal in terms of the waiver of
rights as to both parties andit's not going to have any
special provisions that mayaddress your specific needs if
you don't have an attorney.
Andrew (26:12):
I would say it's more red flag than green flag.
Mila (26:14):
Yeah, here's the next one your partner refuses to discuss
finances before marriage.
Andrew (26:21):
Big red flag.
Mila (26:21):
Red flag.
Why?
Andrew (26:23):
There has to be transparency in the relationship
.
There has to be, and I usuallydon't tell my clients.
I find it awful when, evengoing through a divorce and you
ask them what they made lastyear and they don't know and
they didn't even look at the taxreturn and they weren't allowed
to look at the tax return.
I find that awful.
(26:43):
So people going into a marriagethat don't discuss finances are
, I think, setting themselves upfor failure.
Mila (26:49):
Basically, and you talked about fiduciary duties
beautifully.
It was very powerful to thinkabout.
You know what marriage meansbesides the law, like the duty
you have to your spouse.
If you can't have even therespect to discuss your finances
before you get married, how areyou going to ever meet that
standard after you're married?
Ilona (27:10):
See, that's a standard in California.
If you think of marriage backcenturies ago, what was the
point of marriage?
You have a ceremony, you livetogether, you raise a family
together.
There were no fiduciary duties,there was no dividing assets or
divorce court.
Andrew (27:24):
Marriage is not even allowed to own property in some
states.
Ilona (27:26):
Right Marriage is an institution developed into
certain laws which are differentin every state and in
California.
Andrew (27:33):
I would say it's definitely progressive compared
to other states.
Ilona (27:38):
What about keeping separate bank accounts once
you're married?
Andrew (27:41):
I can give a green flag, I can give a red flag for it.
Ultimately, I think there needsto be transparency.
So if you're going to haveseparate bank accounts, that's
fine, but if the other personwants to know what's in your
bank account at any given time,then you give them access to it.
Ilona (27:58):
What about a clause in a premarital agreement that
penalizes weight gain?
Andrew (28:03):
The red flag.
Mila (28:04):
Is that even conscionable?
Andrew (28:07):
I don't think that any punishment for putting on or
losing weight would beenforceable by any judge.
I would love to find the judgewho would find that enforceable.
Mila (28:18):
By the way, guys, this is from an actual prenup.
Andrew (28:21):
Something like that really goes to show you the
control that's trying to beexerted by one person on the
other.
So you start thinking aboutthings like coercion.
Undue influence.
Boy, you've got something inthere that controls what your
body looks like.
Mila (28:38):
I would take the girl in the room and be like run, girl,
run.
Andrew (28:44):
I would put a red flag on it.
I would say that you areputting the entirety of your
premarital agreement at risk byhaving that kind of control over
them.
Ilona (28:52):
That paragraph would be unenforceable, but the rest of
the agreement, if done rightwith an attorney with proper
disclosures, would beenforceable, don't you think?
Mila (29:00):
I would argue if I was her attorney, how could the
agreement be enforceable,because obviously my client was
not in a mental state to agreeto any type of agreement if she
agreed to this clause?
Ilona (29:11):
but if a lawyer signed off?
Andrew (29:12):
I think that it goes toward the overall coercion side
of it and the and theheavy-handedness which I think
permeates an entire, the entireagreement what if it applies to
both sides?
Mila (29:24):
plus, like men have easier time, like not keeping body fat
on.
Men don't have to have childrenwhere you're going to gain 30
pounds at the minimum.
Sorry, ladies, like, believe itor not, that's a thing.
So I think if, even if it wason both sides, it'd still be.
Andrew (29:41):
Everyone gains weight during their relationship, so
it's kind of I couldn't putweight on to save my life in my
20s and 30s and I can't take itoff to save my life in my 20s
and 30s and I can't take it offto save my life right now.
Mila (29:51):
So funny story on my Facebook group for gym rats.
One of the posts was like okay,ladies and gentlemen, what's
your quickest weight losssupplement that you've used?
No fat burner supplement.
Ilona (30:08):
And a bunch of people wrote divorce.
For me it was work Because whenyou're in trial time.
Andrew (30:12):
When you do family law you have no time to eat.
Sometimes I always seem to eatplenty between the hours of like
7 and 10 at night.
Makes up for the rest of theday.
Mila (30:18):
And isn't there like a statutory requirement that has
to be a certain amount of timein advance?
Andrew (30:26):
I've seen people sign their premarital agreements on
the day they get married.
They go to a notary thatmorning, they sign off, they get
married that afternoon.
There's nothing wrong with thatand I see that happen many
times.
I've had clients that have goneto like Catalina, and they've
just made sure everything wasdone in advance and they waited
seven full calendar days betweenwhen we confirmed they had the
(30:49):
final version and then, in thatsame email we've confirmed that
final version.
We say now we're going to waita full seven days.
That doesn't include the day yougot it, it's not going to
include the day you signed it.
We're going to give a fullseven days, at least in between.
And that way everyone knowsjust relax, don't think about it
(31:12):
, just have a cooling off periodfor this, this period of time.
And then I put a date.
You cannot sign this documentbefore this date.
Um and so to answer yourquestion, I mean there's no.
There is a requirement withregard to when you have to have
the final version before yousign it, but there's no
requirement before, like whenthe wedding is.
Ilona (31:33):
It has to be at least seven calendar days from the
time you were presented with thefinal version of the agreement
advised to seek legal counseland the time the agreement was
signed.
The agreement was signed, butthen if it's after January 1st
2020, then it has to be sevendays from the time you were
(31:54):
first presented with the finalagreement and the time it was
signed.
There is no requirement thatyou have legal counsel at least
seven court days.
Andrew (32:02):
If anyone's interested in getting a premarital
agreement, they should go readthe statute.
You can Google it online, itpops right up.
Or if somebody anticipates that, hey, I've got a premarital
agreement, my marriage lookslike it's falling apart, you may
want to go take a look at thestatute and just read it for
yourself as to whether there'sanything that jumps out at you
(32:26):
that tells you you've got someissues with regard to your
premarital agreement.
One of the reasons why I insiston having attorneys on both
sides and competent attorneys onboth sides if I'm going to be
involved is that there's aportion of that statute that if
there's not an attorneyrepresenting someone
(32:52):
representing someone, then thatperson has to be informed in
layman's terms of what all theconsequences are of the
premarital agreement.
So I would not only be almostfighting with myself because I'm
representing one party.
Now I have to draft a wholeseparate document.
That's not the premaritalagreement.
So I've drafted a separatedocument and explained to the
(33:12):
other side what the benefits are, what the negatives are, what
the pitfalls are, and I wouldnever wish that upon myself.
Ilona (33:22):
Yeah, because if you're in litigation later, even if
you're retired, you could besubpoenaed and put on the stand
to defend the letter you wroteand what you didn't put in there
, and what you put in there andwhat you should have put in
there.
So you don't want to be in thatposition.
Mila (33:34):
Guys, I'm about to have a panic attack as, like a civilian
hearing, this I'm justimagining like a couple like
really excited for their wedding, just from a pragmatic
standpoint.
They're excited for theirwedding and they're like, oh
wait, let's do this.
And they have to get attorneysand look at each other's assets
and being like, if we getdivorced, what am I going to get
?
Ilona (33:54):
It's not pretty and normally, I have to say, women
get dramatic about it.
Andrew (33:59):
It's also interesting that I find that just as many
women want premarital agreementsas men, and so it's really not
a gender-weighted endeavor.
Ilona (34:10):
I think it protects women too.
It depends, if.
I guess I dealt with people whowere brought over from another
country because I speak multiplelanguages.
So in that case, if they canwiggle out of signing, one is
better for them, because theyreally have no leverage to
negotiate the terms.
It's like either get your greencard and get married and you
stay here and your K-1 visa getsextended and you sign this, or
(34:31):
we're not getting married andyou're going back to your
country.
Andrew (34:34):
And I find a lot of times it's not necessarily one
of the parties that wants apremarital agreement.
It's their family members thatare insisting that they get a
premarital agreement.
Mila (34:45):
My kids are having premarital agreements, so it
could be others that areinsisting.
Andrew (34:51):
It could be parents that have insisted upon it, which
creates other other touchyissues because, uh, as a
drafting attorney, my obligationand my fiduciary duty runs to
my client.
It doesn't run to their familymembers.
Ilona (35:04):
But from a family's perspective, if you have
businesses and private companiesyou don't want and your
children may have some sort ofinterest in them, you don't want
to be involved in their divorcelater without a prenup and
become a party to their divorceproceeding and be joined.
So I would absolutely insist onsomeone having a prenup if
(35:26):
their business is involved.
Andrew (35:28):
And I found that people are usually pretty amenable and
pretty willing to negotiatethose terms.
Very rarely have I ever hadsomeone come in and they're just
like this is it, they won'tsign it, we're not getting
married.
I can't remember the last timethat I had someone that came in
that just was like it's a takeit or leave it type of thing
Because there's no point in takeit or leave it.
(35:48):
You come to me and you sayyou've got take it or leave it.
Then I'll say I'm not eventaking you as a client because
there's no point to it.
Ilona (35:55):
Because I speak Russian.
I used to have a lot of Russianwomen that are getting married
to American citizens come to meto review premarital contracts
and often it was take it orleave it.
It wasn't very negotiable.
I often refuse actually most ofthe time I just refuse to sign
them.
(36:15):
I'm not willing to put mysignature on it, they're not
willing to change anything, andthen I tell them if you're ever
going to, if you are going toend up signing it against my
advice, then if you'relitigating in the future, then
perhaps you may need thatdocumentation that I refuse to
sign it.
Let's talk about postnaps.
Postmarital contracts is acontract that you enter into
with your spouse after you'remarried, and the difference is
(36:36):
that once you're married, younow have fiduciary duties.
Fiduciary duties are the dutiesof highest good faith and fair
dealing and obligation todisclose all documents and
information upon demand, whichyou don't have that obligation
before you get married and whatAndrew and I like to do when we
do prenups or postnups is listall real estate, all bank
(36:58):
accounts, all retirement plans,credit card, debt, investment
accounts.
Anything you may have,including business interest,
needs to be disclosed because itdoesn't hurt you before you're
married to disclose what youhave.
It only protects you to outlinethe assets that belong to you
only before the marriage.
I litigated a case where I setaside two post-marital contracts
(37:21):
because they went to the sameattorney and each of them had a
consultation with the sameattorney who then drafted it and
they signed a waiver.
But there was so much on theline and there were a lot of
blurred lines between theattorney's communication with
each party that it resulted inmillions of dollars that one
(37:42):
party thought was all his andended up not being In layman's
terms, that means that you nowhave a duty to look out for the
other person's best interestreally before you look out for
your own.
Andrew (37:53):
Before you got married you can look out for your own
and handle it that way, but onceyou get married you have that
obligation of good faith andfair dealing to really look out
for the other person's bestinterest before you look for
your own self-interest.
Ilona (38:07):
Nobody does that guys.
Andrew (38:09):
But that's really what the duty is.
So if you start thinking aboutthat when we're talking now
about post-marital agreementsand you have that obligation to
each other, even though thereare fewer technical rules for
post-marital agreements.
The reason there are fewertechnical reasons is because
this fiduciary duty is so great.
(38:31):
It doesn't exist before you'remarried.
That's why we have to havethese really technical
provisions in a premaritalagreement, because there is no
legal obligation to the otherperson to treat them fairly or
anything like that.
So we have to create those Nowthat you're married.
Now we've got those fiduciaryduties.
Mila (38:50):
What type of situations do you see this come up in?
Andrew (38:53):
I see it usually in two.
One is they couldn't get thepremarital agreement done and
they don't want to change thewedding date, so they go through
with it.
The fact that they're stillwilling to even talk about a
postmarital agreement kind ofleads to the conclusion that
they were both on the same page.
They just couldn't get it done.
The other is that the marriageis really suffering but they're
(39:14):
not ready to call it quits.
Other is that the marriage isreally suffering but they're not
ready to call it quits, and somany times it's used as hey,
we're either doing apost-marital agreement or I'm
filing for divorce.
In my opinion, I think that itis used many times as leverage
to basically say, hey, if you'renot willing to, if you want to
stay in this and you want me towork on this, I don't have a
(39:36):
whole lot of confidence in it,but I will keep working on it.
But I need some protectionsright now, and so that's one of
the main reasons that I've seenfor post-marital agreements.
Mila (39:47):
I read some of finances are the number one reason for
fighting in marriages.
Andrew (39:52):
I would probably agree that that's accurate.
Most of the issues are controlissues.
There's quite a bit of domesticviolence.
Mila (39:59):
And.
Andrew (40:00):
I can't speak for everybody else's practice, is it
just?
That's where, that's where mycareer has taken me?
My experience has taken me thatI tend to attract high conflict
, high asset, highly litigatedcases.
It's, you know, it's a certaintype of case that I'd say most
family law attorneys justcouldn't stomach.
Mila (40:21):
But you're so happy all the time.
Well, he's happily married,yeah.
Andrew (40:25):
I'm happily married.
Mila (40:26):
How do you leave all that stuff and continue on with your
life and not get emotionallydrawn into any of that?
I struggle with that as anattorney.
Andrew (40:36):
Well, I've developed certain systems for myself over
the years and that may soundkind of mechanical but for like.
One of them is that we're onthe 21st floor.
So I got 21 floors to wipe myjob out of my brain and focus on
my family.
Mila (40:52):
I love that.
I mean it sounds mechanical,but you need that as an attorney
.
You need that because, guys,you don't want an attorney to
come in and you know you haveall this trauma because people
trauma dump, people trauma dumpand family law, people trauma
dump and employment all the time.
Andrew (41:09):
But that should also just be for anybody out there.
When you're at work you're,you're selling your time for
money, but when you're no longeron the clock like for me I'm
thinking from floors 21 toground level.
I'm thinking what are we doingtonight?
What are we having for dinner?
Are we going someplace?
What do the kids need?
What does my wife need?
What's the dog need?
These are the things that I'mstarting to focus on.
(41:31):
So by get to my car, I'vetransitioned from work to family
.
I think that that other peopledoesn't matter what profession
you're in, that will help withyour marriage.
Yeah, now you can have reallylike, great experience at work
and you can focus on it.
Mila (41:46):
Yeah, great experience at home there was this man at my
gym one time.
I'll never forget this he's.
He was like a 65 year old man.
He's been married for 35 yearsand three kids and he told me
one time he's like if people putas much work in at home as they
did at work, everyone would bea lot happier.
Andrew (42:06):
That's true.
Ilona (42:07):
You're a divorce attorney , doing it for 30 years.
Why do you believe in theinstitution of marriage,
considering all the Californialaws that make it so painful to
go through a divorce?
Andrew (42:17):
My parents were married for 52 years.
My grandparents were marriedfor, I think, 60 some years.
It's just.
It's how I was raised and Ithink that it is a beautiful I
wouldn't even call it aninstitution, it's just.
(42:38):
It's a beautiful promise toanother person.
Obviously, things that havehappened to other people over
the years have required us tohave laws and things like that
that are more protective,because back in the day, you
know, when that promise fellapart, people weren't very
protective and it did leave somepeople that were out without
(43:02):
anything.
Just because we have laws thathandle how we handle divorces
doesn't mean marriage is, youknow, aside from having kids,
you know, the most beautifulthing.
Mila (43:13):
And I think honestly, on the contrary, you were saying I
hope I didn't scare people outof getting married.
I think, on the contrary, Ithink the more you talk about
these things, the more you cometo acceptance of the fact that
marriage is a beautiful thing,but it's also very complicated
and it's better to protectyourself if you're going to do
it, because ignorance is notbliss.
There are complications that gointo life.
(43:36):
It is rough out here, and themore you know, the more you talk
about these things, the moreyou understand how to protect
yourself.
Andrew (43:45):
Well said.
Ilona (43:46):
Yes, protect yourself at all times.
Yes.
Mila (43:51):
Thanks for spending time with us today and talking about
the legal side of love.
Ilona (43:57):
And to our audience.
If you enjoyed thisconversation and it resonated
with you, please share it.
Knowledge is power.
Mila (44:04):
Like your weekly dose of glam.
Don't forget to hit subscribe.
Ilona (44:08):
It's law, it's life, it's the Glamorous Grind.
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