April 22, 2025 • 38 mins
Sexual harassment. Wrongful termination. Domestic violence. Restraining orders.
In this season finale of The Glamorous Grind, attorneys Mila and Ilona get real about some of the most misunderstood legal issues people face today—both at work and at home.
They break down what actually qualifies as harassment, how to protect yourself if you’re fired for reporting abuse or having a medical condition, and how restraining orders can be used to protect victims—or manipulate custody and court outcomes.
Whether you're an employee, a parent, or a survivor navigating a toxic relationship, this episode gives you real tools, legal insight, and confidence to stand up for yourself.
🔑 Topics include:
- How to document abuse and report it safely
- The truth about retaliation and whistleblower laws
- The legal and emotional cost of restraining orders
- Disability rights in the workplace
- What judges really look at in family court
- How to defend yourself from false allegations
💬 “You have a duty to protect yourself—and your children. We’re here to tell you how.”
If you found this helpful, please share it with someone who might need it. We're just a DM away if you have questions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ilona (00:00):
Welcome to the Glamorous Grind where grit meets glamour
and the law is always in style.
I'm Alona Antonian, a certifiedfamily law specialist and a
trial attorney, and I'm Mila.
Mila (00:11):
Aratunian, a trial attorney who specializes in
employment and personal injurylaw.
We are lawyers, friends andyour guides to real-life legal
drama.
Ilona (00:21):
Each week, we're breaking down unforgettable cases,
sharing incredible personaljourneys and sharing what keeps
us motivated, both in ourcareers and personal lives.
Mila (00:30):
So, whether you're hustling to make your own dreams
happen or just here for a goodstory, settle in with your
favorite drink, because we arebringing you wisdom, wit and a
whole lot of style.
It's law, it's life, it's theGlamorous Grind.
Ilona (00:55):
This episode is about power and how the law can either
protect it or be used to abuseit.
Mila (01:00):
We are talking about domestic violence, restraining
orders and workplace sexualharassment, areas where fear,
silence and legal confusionoften keep people stuck.
Ilona (01:12):
I'll be talking about the legal and strategic realities
of domestic violence restrainingorders, why some victims
hesitate to file, how theseorders can affect divorce and
custody, and what to do ifyou're hit with a frivolous
restraining order meant to gainadvantage and leverage in court
and I will be unpacking whatactually counts as sexual
harassment how the law definesit versus how it shows up in
(01:36):
real life, and what people needto know to recognize it and to
respond.
We'll break down how theseissues show up in real life and
in court, what victims need toknow and how the system can be
both a shield and a weapon.
Mila (01:51):
If you've ever questioned what's fair, what's legal or how
to fight back.
This conversation is for you,camila.
Ilona (01:59):
you practice employment law.
I'm an expert in family law.
There have been more domesticviolence restraining orders
filed in the last few years,especially since COVID, than
before.
What about you from employmentlaw perspective?
What do you see more of termsof litigation and or types of
cases that are coming up, andwhat's your perspective?
Mila (02:18):
From an employment law perspective and I really enjoy
the sexual harassment cases inthe employment law context.
But a lot of that kind of fallsalso into, you know, sexual
assault.
So all of that is kind ofintertwined and having to do
with women's rights and I thinkall around women are just
(02:39):
feeling more comfortablestanding up for themselves.
I think part of that is societyis making it okay.
I think part of it is also justknowledge, like the more you
know, everyone hates on socialmedia and there are certainly
negative aspects to it, but atthe same time I think a lot of
people and women are being moreinformed as to their rights and
(03:02):
things that they can do.
Ilona (03:03):
What about in California?
It can sometimes be exaggerated, Like you wink at somebody at
work and there goes a lawsuit.
You know, hey, that's sexualharassment.
Mila (03:12):
There are lawsuits that are exaggerated, for sure.
I think when I was on thedefense side defending employers
, there was a lawsuit where awoman was claiming that someone
harassed her by looking at her.
That's crazy.
Literally he was sitting at adesk and looking at her and the
jury found liability there.
Really, yeah, and they foundthat it was harassing.
(03:33):
The rights of employees are veryextensive, which is why most of
these cases settle, which iswhy most employment cases never
go to trial.
Oftentimes a lawsuit isn't evenfiled.
They would rather just settleit out than pay their attorney
$600 an hour to defend it.
And then also, a lot ofemployers don't have insurance
In a personal injury case mostcar accident cases there's
(03:56):
insurance at play, so the personisn't going to be personally
liable for the accident.
But employers have to buy aspecialty insurance.
It's called EPLI insurance.
It's very expensive and there'san extremely high deductible.
Usually a lot of companies,especially if they're not huge,
they won't even purchase thisinsurance.
But just to break it down, youbring a case for 20 causes of
(04:17):
action and you go to trial and ajury finds the employer is not
liable on anything except forone.
Let's say like complete BSclaims.
But there's like one thing, onething that the jury finds
liability for the plaintiff'sattorney, even if the jury
verdict is $5, the plaintiff'sattorney could get all of their
(04:38):
fees.
Ilona (04:38):
I don't agree with that.
As a business person, I don'tthink that's fair.
That kills the economy.
That puts people out ofbusiness.
I don't think that's fair.
That kills the economy, thatputs people out of business.
I don't think that's good.
It's not fair.
How are you going to want torun a business when you can face
that liability?
Yesterday I was at a businessmeeting and one of my colleagues
mentioned that they wererecently hit with what's called
(05:01):
a PACA PAGA, PAGA lawsuit, whichI'd never heard of before.
I'm like what is it?
Mila (05:05):
So PAGA is basically the state version of class actions,
like the California-specificstate version of class actions.
How I see PAGA is.
The only entity winning in aPAGA lawsuit is the attorney.
Ilona (05:19):
The government.
Mila (05:21):
Well, the government's getting it, yes, but the
government doesn't care for thatmoney.
But the plaintiff, who?
What do you?
Who?
Ilona (05:25):
they don't care about the money I mean they care about
the money.
Mila (05:28):
But I'm saying that the plaintiff who's bringing the
claim isn't winning anything.
They get a tiny amount.
The attorneys have an incentiveto work these cases up because
they'll get their fee regardless.
So they get a you know a couplemillion dollars in settlement
and most of that money will goto the attorney.
Ilona (05:46):
I think that there are many lawyers that may take
losses that could be BS, becausethe business owners may be more
tempted to settle rather thanlitigate.
I don't think that's fair.
I don't think that's good forthe state, I don't think that's
ethical from the attorneyperspective and from the
employee perspective.
But everybody tries to make aquick buck and not give a shit
(06:08):
about someone else Coming on tothe plaintiff side, from the
defense side.
Mila (06:13):
I was very hesitant to become a plaintiff's attorney
honestly because of that,Because I have my ethical code
and I don't want to take BScases, which is why I didn't go
and be a solo practitioner,because then I wouldn't have a
choice but to take BS cases,because I would need the money
and these cases almost alwayssettle.
But that's why I went to workfor a firm and one of the first
(06:35):
things I told the first firm Iworked at and one of the first
things I told you when I came towork with you is my integrity
is number one.
Ilona (06:43):
I'm not taking bullshit cases to work with you is my
integrity is number one.
I'm not taking bullshit casesand I love that when you said
that.
Hey, I have a strong moral codehere and I'm not going to take
on bullshit claims just to makequick money.
I'm comfortable with having anemployment law department
because of that.
I think there's certainly manyvictims and bad employers and
things that employees reportthat go unnoticed and people get
(07:03):
harassed and terminated for badreasons and there should be
justice for those people.
But I know many business ownerswho have faced bullshit
lawsuits brought by solepractitioners and others who
think they're going to be ableto squeeze money out of a
business, and I think thosebusinesses need to stand up for
(07:26):
themselves and fight back as aplaintiff's attorney and running
the team.
Mila (07:30):
I fired a lot of clients, even when money is offered.
I have fired clients because Ifind out they are lying and I
don't want to do that to thecompany.
And that's just me and mypersonal beliefs.
I believe in karma and I don'treally want it to come back and
bite me.
At the same time, I have to sayI also still love what I do and
fighting for people who werewrongfully terminated.
(07:52):
I mean I had a lady come to meand she found out she had cancer
and three weeks later theyfired her and she called me and
she didn't even want to stand upfor herself.
I was like are you insane?
She had three kids.
I literally called a otherattorney on the other side when
they got counsel and I was likeare you guys serious?
And then they tried to offerher her job back.
They were like oh, we'll takeher back.
(08:13):
I'm like are you, are you?
Ilona (08:14):
insane.
What is wrong with you?
In a short period I've beenwith my firm since january to
present I've noticed you made abig difference for many clients
you've represented in employmentlaw and the cases you have
taken.
It's real facts.
It's real injuries, emotionaland or physical, when it comes
to sexual abuse or otheremployment law harassment, and
(08:36):
I've been very proud of you.
Not only have you been able toresolve it very quickly, but for
a good sum of money for thosevictims.
But all of those cases hadmerit.
They're not bullshit cases.
So with that, what sort ofcases do you love?
Mila (08:52):
taking.
Yeah, I mean, my favorite casesreally are sexual harassment
and any like disabilitydiscrimination.
I really take close to hearttoo, because under California
law the employer, once they findout the employee has any type
of disability or issue, theyhave an affirmative duty to come
in and say hey, we know youhave this issue.
(09:13):
How can we accommodate you?
Can we turn off the lights?
Can we let you work from homeonce a week?
And a lot of times employersdon't do that.
They just say, hey, you'rescrewing up, you're fired.
And without even trying to seeif there's a way to accommodate
them or help them but how do you?
Ilona (09:27):
differentiate.
A bullshit excuse Becauseanybody can say, oh, I'm
stressed out.
I mean, who is not stressed out?
Everybody has some sort ofstress in their life.
Can you require real proof?
Mila (09:39):
You should require real proof before.
You don't have to accommodateanything that a doctor doesn't
recommend.
If I see gray areas in a case,I'm not going to be like, no,
let's litigate it, let's take itto the grave.
I'm like, okay, talk to myclient.
I'm like, hey, here are thegray areas in your case, let me
see what I can get you, whatmakes sense.
And I feel like, in a way, I'ma mediator, because part of my
job is to manage my client'sexpectations, make sure they
(10:02):
understand what litigationentails and also understand and
fight for my client with respectto the person.
And a lot of times people cometo me at one of some of the
hardest times of their lives,where they lose their jobs.
Sometimes they're longstandingemployees and I have to walk
them through it.
I have to make sure they're notmaking decisions based on
(10:25):
emotions.
I have to make sure theyunderstand the trauma that comes
with litigation, because onceyou file a lawsuit, they can
take the client's deposition,which re-traumatizes them in a
lot of cases.
Ilona (10:37):
They're medical records because if you're claiming
emotional distress or any sortof other, you know your
psychiatrist records will be atissue.
Mila (10:45):
And they can hire their own doctor to come in and do an
independent medical examinationof the plaintiff.
And those doctors are ruthlessbecause their job is to come in
and be like no, this person maybe depressed, but their
depression is actually caused byX Y Z.
Ilona (11:02):
And if someone has been in therapy and you get you, if
you get sued as a business, youcan get their discovery, even
though it may be subject toprotective order, that will only
that means, will only be usedin this litigation and only be
seen by attorneys and or thejudge and potentially the jury.
Mila (11:17):
As life happens, that's going to be a good defense, like
, hey, your emotional distressdidn't arise just because
somebody compliment you know,whatever happened at work, it
was because of all this otherstuff you had going on and I get
(11:38):
that a lot, especially if youknow if you're in therapy you're
going to talk about all of yourtraumas, if you were molested
as a child, if you were abusedby your parents, if you have a
bad relationship with yoursister.
They get all of that and thentheir doctor reviews all of the
records, comes in andaggressively attacks the patient
to put in a report that, oh,all of their PTSD is actually
(12:02):
caused by their childhoodtraumas of abuse.
Ilona (12:05):
But realistically, if you have so much stuff in your
medical records, a long historyof problems and all these issues
that you've been going totherapy with, could be
depression because of breakupwith a boyfriend, girlfriend.
Mila (12:16):
Well, what happens a lot of times and I actually have a
client right now that this isgoing on with when they may have
suffered some issues as a childor you know, in their lives,
and then they were fine.
And then they were fine andthey were functional and they
were a great employee and doinggreat, until something happened
in the workplace that causedthem to fall apart.
Ilona (12:38):
How severe is that?
Something to trigger certainevents from the past?
Mila (12:43):
Every person is different, right?
I mean you have the same kindof law in personal injury If you
get into a car accident withsomeone the HL plaintiff rule.
If you get into a car accidentwith someone and you know they
had a pre-existing injury thathad since healed, but now it's
exacerbated, you could be liablefor that injury.
Ilona (13:03):
To give an example of actual plaintiff is for those
who don't understand.
When I had a jury trial once onthat issue, I had an ex-shel
plaintiff.
So I brought an egg to myopening argument or it was
closing argument, I'm not surewhich one and I dropped it to
show the jury what an ex-shelplaintiff is relative to a hard
ball that obviously doesn'tbreak if you drop it.
(13:25):
So it's someone who has priorinjuries, whether it's
psychological or physicalinjuries, that is more
susceptible to greater injurybecause of the past existing
problems.
Mila (13:41):
It's really sad when that happens.
I mean, unfortunately, aworkplace does need to be
strictly professional, and Iknow that back in the day it was
completely different, butnowadays I mean I have to say it
people are different.
Nowadays, people are moresensitive, people are more
triggered, and I think allemployers have to be cognizant
(14:03):
of that and train theirsupervisors properly so that
anytime there's any issues, theyare addressed, because that's
really all that matters, right?
Employers can't ensureeverything is perfect, and I
always trained this when I wason the defense side.
You cannot control everythingto make sure everything is
perfect.
So what can you do?
What can you control whensomething happens?
When something comes up, youmake sure that it's addressed.
(14:25):
You do an investigation.
If the employer does that,they're not going to really have
a lawsuit.
Here's what happens.
If there's an instance wherethere's a harassing instance or
some type of sexual harassment,if a supervisor witnesses it,
the employer is liable for thesupervisor witnessing it,
(14:47):
because there's vicariousliability.
Ilona (14:49):
The supervisor's knowledge means the employer is
automatically aware there areproblems where the supervisor
may not report it up the chain,where they're supposed to for
the employer to take action.
They just think, okay, it's notgoing to happen again, or I'll
resolve it myself, or thesupervisor just tries to like,
talk to them, like, oh, I'lljust talk to them.
Mila (15:09):
That's not enough.
And the supervisor has a dutyto report to HR or to an
executive in the company.
And then the employer has aduty to investigate it.
And that could mean sittingdown the people and documenting
it, asking them what happenedand doing a write-up for the
person who screwed up and beinglike, hey, you can't do this,
(15:30):
you do this again, you're gone.
That is enough to make it avery strong defense for the
employer.
But the problem is those rulesaren't often followed.
Ilona (15:39):
Yeah, and for employers, it's a good idea to get either a
payroll service or an HRservice who will do that
investigation for you if you'renot equipped and if you don't
have an HR department.
For example, like ADP,totalsource, they have an HR
person that comes with yoursubscription, so if there's an
(15:59):
issue, you just report it tothem.
They'll investigate anddocument it and protect you.
Or there are other services aswell, like paychecks.
Mila (16:07):
Yeah, and there are now outside HR consulting companies.
In fact, june, june, ann, whowas here a couple weeks ago, he
was, he works for one.
There are outside HR consultingcompanies that that's all they
do is come into companies and doHR consulting, whether it's
consulting on your payroll stuffor consulting on investigation.
Ilona (16:27):
Yeah, so you don't have to have an in-house HR person.
You can either do it throughyour payroll company if they
offer that service, or you cansubscribe to another HR service
that you use or go to for onneed basis, that's part of the
cost of doing business inCalifornia is making sure your
personnel issues are in order.
Because people don't know whatthey don't know.
(16:48):
If someone was terminated, whatdo you think is the best way to
find out whether they have aclaim?
Mila (17:00):
The first thing we look at because California is an
at-will employment state right,so employers can legally
terminate anyone for any reasonor for no reason at all, as long
as they don't have a contractthat states the terms of the
employment.
But if that reason is illegal,obviously there's a claim there.
So what is illegal?
It has to be eitherdiscriminatory, so based on a
protected class that person wasterminated because they're a
(17:22):
woman.
That person was terminatedbecause they're African American
or because they're Muslim.
There has to be a causalconnection to the protected
class.
Ilona (17:32):
That would be religion, race, sex, gender.
Mila (17:37):
There's like 60 different categories in.
Ilona (17:38):
California.
What are the top 10?
Mila (17:40):
Yeah, it would be race, national, ethnicity, religion, I
.
The hairstyle is now aprotected class.
Yeah, anyone with ethnic hair.
So you know, employers can'thave policies now that prohibit
people from having their naturalhairstyles.
I did have a case one timewhere a man had, like, a beard
that he had to have for hisreligion and they tried to get
(18:02):
him to groom the beard that hehad to have for his religion.
And they tried to get him togroom the beard but because it
was part of his religion duringthat time of the year to have
his beard out, we made claimsand they settled the case.
Another thing that comes upoften is whistleblower If
someone makes a protectedcomplaint and they're terminated
.
Ilona (18:21):
What's a protected complaint?
Mila (18:21):
That's a great question because we learned this the hard
way.
But a protected complaint hasto be a complaint.
That's a great question becauseyou know we learned this the
hard way.
But a protected complaint hasto be a complaint of something
illegal.
So like what Drug use there's?
Like drug use in the companyand you make a complaint and
then later you're terminated,that's whistleblower.
If you make a complaint thatthe CEO is stealing money and
(18:43):
then you're terminated, thenthat's whistleblower.
If you make a complaint thatsomeone's being sexually
harassed or that you're beingsexually harassed, not only do
you have the sexual harassmentclaims, but you have
whistleblower claims and youhave wrongful termination claims
.
Ilona (18:55):
Is whistleblower claim different than wrongful
termination, and how?
Mila (18:59):
It is.
It's a separate claim.
So here's the thing that a lotof people kind of confuse is a
lot of people call me andthey'll be like my.
That a lot of people kind ofconfuse is a lot of people call
me and they'll be like mysupervisor is mean to me.
My supervisor is harassing me,they're creating a hostile work
environment for me.
That in and of itself may notbe illegal and that gets
confusing because a workplacedoesn't have to be a sorority
(19:20):
right, like your supervisordoesn't have to be super nice to
you.
Obviously, if it's harassing toa point where it's a hostile
work environment, putting youdown, publicly humiliating you,
you could have a hostile workenvironment claim.
But by itself it's not thatvaluable.
It has to.
It should be accompanied withsomething else.
(19:41):
And if you make a complaintthat your supervisor is mean,
that may not be protected forretaliation because that in and
of itself is not illegal.
And we've had cases like thatwhere we've brought them and the
attorney on the other side saysokay, they made a complaint
that the supervisor was mean.
The supervisor was mean becausethey had performance issues and
they were not performing.
(20:02):
That complaint in and of itselfis not a protected complaint
because it's not an illegalactivity.
Ilona (20:09):
Can you give us an example of like the juiciest
sexual harassment cases you'vesettled some of the facts and
how quickly you were able toresolve them?
Mila (20:18):
Sexual harassment is a big one when people are treated
differently on the job.
I see this a lot in lawenforcement.
Believe it or not, Lawenforcement and all public
entities seem to have a lot ofsexual harassment.
I think a lot of those entitieshave more of a big boys club
where the men are in charge andthe women are kind of put down
(20:40):
and subjected to negativetreatment, where there's
retaliation and there's sexualharassment and there's comments
and no one does anything aboutit because the you know, the
supervisors say oh, that's justhow he is, oh, he just grew up
in the 60s.
It's the culture of the places.
What's your advice to?
Ilona (20:58):
those who are getting sexually harassed at work.
Mila (21:01):
Document everything.
I encounter this problem somuch, not only in harassment but
in disability, discriminationcases, in retaliation cases.
People don't want it to getuncomfortable and are afraid to
document it, but that is why thelaws are made.
That is why legislature createdthe laws.
Once things are documented, theemployer has a duty to respond.
(21:26):
So put it in writing.
You can either submit acomplaint to human resources if
you don't have a human resourcesdepartment, small company,
submit it to your supervisor orto an executive, if you don't
feel comfortable to yoursupervisor.
It has to be in writing.
Ilona (21:41):
I have so many people it's important writing to
employer, not just keeping yourjournal at home and be like,
okay, I documented everything.
Here's the story I wrote upabout all the emotional damage.
Mila (21:52):
If the employer does not know that this is going on, they
have no duty to take action.
So I've had cases that came tome and there were all these
horrible things going on behindthe scenes but no supervisor was
ever apprised of it.
The employer didn't know.
The only way to get liabilityin that case really is if that
other employee who's harassingyou has had some type of
(22:14):
tendency to harass otheremployees and the employer
didn't do anything to protectyou that way.
But if the employer doesn'tknow, they have no duty to
protect you, so you're not goingto be protected.
So a lot of times people willcome to me and they're like oh,
I didn't, I just didn't feelcomfortable reporting it, I just
quit instead.
Like no.
Well then, they don't have aclaim and then if you, even if
(22:37):
you quit, you can still haveclaims under the law.
But you have to show that thework environment was so hostile
that no reasonable person couldhave been expected to sustain in
that environment.
So in your resignation emailyou need to put this is like a
perfect case is if you'reharassed, you make a report,
(22:58):
nothing is done to protect you,and then you can resign.
And then you can resign.
And in your resignation you sayyou, and then you can resign,
and then you can resign.
And in your resignation you sayon this day I made a report in
writing, attached the exhibit A,my email to HR.
Nothing was done to protect me.
This environment is too hostile, I can no longer sustain in it.
Ilona (23:19):
Therefore I'm resigning.
Is there a law in California asto the reasonable amount of
time that the employer shouldhave to investigate your
complaint?
Mila (23:23):
The employer- needs to take action immediately.
If they get a complaint, evenif it's like a BS complaint,
they have to take actionimmediately.
The employee can go to theemployer and say I've submitted
this complaint, I don't feelcomfortable being here, what can
I do?
They might be able to take timeoff.
They don't have time off.
They can go to a doctor, tellthem they're distressed.
They'll put them off work ondisability or they could take
(23:45):
their sick time Like there areways around that.
Ilona (23:47):
What's the statute of limitations?
How long does a person have tobring an employment lawsuit?
Three years, used to be two.
Three years from what?
Mila (23:59):
Three years from, basically, the date of the
wrongful action.
Unfortunately, sometimes youhave cases where there's ongoing
wrongful or retaliatory action.
Ilona (24:06):
So it's not from the last act, it's three years from each
individual act Basically.
Mila (24:11):
So like, for example, we had a case where a person had a
retaliate or, I'm sorry, sexualharassment claim and they agreed
to participate in aninvestigation because they were
sexually harassed and someoneelse brought this claim.
Um, subsequently they wereretaliated against for agreeing
(24:33):
to participate in thatinvestigation.
So are you following?
So the sexual harassmenthappened, then the retaliation
happened and then they had toquit and it was a constructive
termination.
Because it became so hostilethey had to quit.
But obviously the time passedand then by the time they were
ready to bring the lawsuit, itwas like two years after the
(24:55):
retaliation but more than threeyears after the initial sexual
harassment.
So there's no sexual harassmentwe tried to bring them, the
judge threw them out.
The judge said we can onlybring retaliation claims
Interesting.
The three things that companiescan do is create a culture of
accountability.
Train your people to make sureeveryone knows what they're
(25:15):
doing, knows their reportingduties and knows how to properly
investigate these claims.
And the third thing is believeyour staff, no matter how
insignificant the complaint mayseem.
Employers have a duty to do aproactive investigation.
Believe everything that's beingsaid and, based on the
(25:36):
investigation results, actaccordingly.
You know I've seen somerestraining orders.
I haven't worked a ton withrestraining orders in the
domestic violence sphere, but doyou see the restraining orders
as a weapon or a shield?
Ilona (25:52):
I see it more as a shield , but there's about 25% of them,
I would say, that are used as aweapon to gain leverage and
advantage in family court.
Because obtaining a restrainingorder is relatively easy and in
my experience you know I've hadto defend restraining orders
(26:12):
where one writes this storyabout all these things that
happen without putting dates ina declaration, like when certain
things happen.
They get a restraining orderjust by going and filing it over
the counter at the businessoffice.
The other side against whom therestraining order is sought
(26:33):
does not get noticed to be ableto defend themselves, so it's
issued over the counter, it getsserved on someone with
potentially a move out order.
It means they have to stay outof their house and move out
immediately until they get theircourt hearing in about two
weeks.
They potentially cannot seetheir children until that court
(26:55):
date for about two weeks andthere could be other
restrictions like no contact, etcetera.
Like no contact, et cetera.
But the problem is that ifsomeone is lying in that
declaration or is beingextremely vague or is talking
about events that may havehappened 20 years ago, where in
(27:17):
a case that I dealt with, thewife wrote like yeah, uh,
punched the wall.
He uh pinched my legs, uh, hedid x, y and z and it sounded
like this happened recently.
Because you get a restrainingorder because it's to protect
you.
Now because of events andviolence that happened recently
(27:41):
and turns out this was when Itook her deposition.
These people were in their 60snow.
This was when I took herdeposition.
These people were in their 60sNow.
This was when they were likemarried in their 20s, 40 years
ago.
But the way it was written upand filed with the court I think
the attorney in that case waseither didn't ask their client
or intentionally did this to getget leverage and kick my client
out of his own home.
(28:02):
They were very general inleaving dates out.
Can you get?
Mila (28:05):
any penalties against someone for lying to get a
restraining order.
Ilona (28:11):
Yes, if you prevail, then Family Code 6344 allows for
prevailing party fees.
You can also ask for Family Code271 sanctions for increasing
cost of litigation.
But that does not erase thedamage to your life, the damage
to your children, potentially,if you have small children,
where someone is kept fromseeing them, from visiting them,
(28:35):
from being in their own homeand having to be out in the
street and stay in a hotel orwith friends and get by until
they get to court.
And then what happens is thehearing generally must be held
within 21 days or 25 days at thelatest if it's for good cause
and if the responding party hasa right to seek continuance,
(28:57):
that has to be granted.
If they need more time toprepare but often one maybe gets
served shortly before thehearing date and they need an
attorney.
They show up and they're notready.
So it's already been two weeks.
You know that they've beenkicked out and they try to see
what to do, what this all means,or they may not have funds to
(29:17):
hire a lawyer and need more time.
So then the restraining ordergets continued and they're still
kept away, potentially fromseeing their kids or being away
from their home, not having alltheir belongings.
That's a bad situation to be inand the judges do their best to
be able to tell whether therestraining order that's filed
has merit or not, but they haveto take the statements at face
(29:40):
value to protect the potentialor alleged victim.
Mila (29:45):
Without giving the person an opportunity to respond.
Ilona (29:48):
Correct.
So in some counties the noticemust be given to the person
against whom you're seeking arestraining order unless there
is good cause not to that mayresult in more violence or them
taking off with the children outof state, or if it's related to
financial abuse in addition tophysical or emotional abuse,
that they could move money, thenyou will provide good cause to
(30:12):
the judge as to why notice ofrestraining order should not be
given, because it can result ingreater consequences for the
victim.
But in San Diego you don't haveto give notice and pretty much
the first hearing will bescheduled two weeks out and then
the victim gets to go and telltheir story without a response.
Mila (30:31):
What's the standard Like?
How bad does the abuse have tobe for a judge to grant a
restraining order?
Ilona (30:39):
The statutes get more vague and more vague as years go
by, shopper.
So there doesn't have to bejust physical abuse, obviously.
If it's physical abuse, thenit's a slam dunk restraining
order you're going to get andhopefully the victim was able to
take photographs and keep trackof their injuries and
(31:01):
additionally, and aside fromjust bringing a restraining
order case, if they're goingthrough a divorce or if they
have any sort of relationship,dating relationship, anything
else you can also bring a civilcomplaint in civil court and sue
for domestic violence and forassault, up to three years after
(31:22):
the incident happened, torecover financial damages in
civil court against theperpetrator of domestic violence
.
For physical abuse, that's easyto prove and especially if you
have medical records.
But yes, there's also emotionalabuse.
Emotional abuse is harder toprove.
Yes, there's also emotionalabuse.
Emotional abuse is harder toprove.
But the way you'll normally seeit and you have to be able to
(31:45):
describe it all to the court,either through testimony or
declarations is it can come in aform of coercive control
friends from their children,from their close support system,
manipulating the financials,threatening the person to you
(32:13):
know, threatening them in such away that holds them back from
exercising their legal right totake any sort of action, for
example threatening hey, I'mgoing to report you to the IRS
or I'm going to not help you getyour immigration papers like
restraining them from exercisingsome sort of legal right or
benefit they may otherwise have.
So but emotional distress ingeneral In California you can
(32:39):
get a restraining order if itdisturbs your peace.
If you disturb your peace, thenyou can get a restraining order,
but you have to be able toexplain how it disturbs your
peace.
It has to be severe enough sothat it would be disturbing, not
something basic.
But if there is a long historyof recurring emotional abuse
(33:00):
screaming at the children infront of the children, name
calling.
If someone went to a therapistto document it, that's strong to
show like, hey, I've been goingto therapy to deal with verbal
abuse and this is what I'velearned.
Mila (33:15):
So, from your experience, why do some victims hesitate to
file restraining orders if theyhave claims?
Ilona (33:21):
I think because they're victims of domestic violence and
they are attached andcodependent with the abuser.
But more often it can bebecause they're financially
dependent on that person andthey do not know their rights.
They don't know they can getchild support if they have
children together.
If they're married, they canget spouse support from the
abuser.
If they're married, they canget spouse support from the
abuser.
(33:41):
They also have rights to, ifthey're married, to community
property and assets and moneythat's in the bank that they may
have previously not had accessto.
Sometimes victims of domesticviolence are given X amount of
dollars a month to spend on acredit card or there's a limit
and they're controlled by theirabuser and they don't have
access to their cars or bankaccounts.
So there's a lot of financialpower to be gained through
(34:05):
obtaining child support orspouse support orders,
especially in the restrainingorder proceeding, because you
can get those a lot sooner thanif you just filed for divorce or
paternity action.
Mila (34:18):
And a good family law firm like ours has, like internal
forensic accounting folks whospecialize in that right.
Ilona (34:26):
Well, yes, Certified family law specialists should,
and most of us know how to readfinancials, how to analyze tax
returns, how to add things backthat sometimes the victim will
say, hey, well, he doesn't showany income or she doesn't show
any income.
They write everything off.
They live off free perks thatthey get through their
(34:46):
businesses.
That's where you need a help offorensic accountants.
Mila (34:51):
Are there ever situations where you recommend to your
clients to get restrainingorders and, if so, why?
What is the benefit of that?
Ilona (34:59):
Absolutely, and if so, why?
What is the benefit of that?
Absolutely.
Sometimes, when I listen tovictims of domestic violence
that came to talk about divorcebut they've been physically
abused by their spouse andpossibly as recently as within a
month or so, they came to seeme.
(35:20):
I absolutely recommend thatthey seek a restraining order
because there's a history ofrecurring abuse.
I would absolutely recommendanyone who's being abused in any
way to get a restraining order,at least temporarily, and
especially when they're going tobe going through a legal
proceeding, whether it's custodybattle or divorce.
Mila (35:35):
I don't know about you, but I think probably my favorite
part about being a lawyer and Ilove a lot of things about
being a lawyer and I love a lotof things about being a lawyer,
which I know most lawyers don'tsay that Most lawyers talk badly
about the profession.
I love being a lawyer.
I think it's great.
I don't think I would want todo any other profession
profession, but my favorite partis watching, you know, people
(35:57):
who were victims step into theirpower and feel empowered again,
and I see that a lot in theemployment context I was saying
before.
They come to me when they're intheir darkest, most difficult
places they lose their jobs,they're disabled or for whatever
reason, and then seeing themkind of feel empowered again and
feeling like, oh, there's alight at the end of the tunnel
(36:19):
really makes me feel purpose.
And I don't know if you feelthe same way with family and
love people.
Ilona (36:24):
I do, I really I care most.
I mean, I care about my clients, but it really bothers me when
someone gets abused and theyhave children together and they
don't stand up for themselves,because it has such a great
impact on the psyche of thosechildren.
It is your absolute duty whenthere is domestic violence in
(36:45):
your home to stand up, not justfor yourself but for your
children.
You owe it to them.
You had those children.
You have a duty to protect them.
Mila (36:53):
Yeah, I definitely think this conversation is important,
both you know.
From the family law perspective, I think it's important to
address what are the rights ofvictims.
I think a lot of times, victimsdon't know.
Ilona (37:06):
I think it was interesting to know what
employers can do to properlyaddress complaints and make sure
it's a healthy and positivework environment for everybody
that's there.
I think it's important toprotect people from any sort of
abuse that can happen at work.
It's difficult to know andunderstand your rights there.
I think it's important toprotect people from any sort of
abuse that can happen at work.
Mila (37:22):
It's difficult to know and understand your rights and I
think even us having thispodcast.
It's great and we have a lot ofguests on.
But you know, at our core, ourpassion and our real careers are
being lawyers and standing upfor people and fighting for
people's rights.
Up for people and fighting forpeople's rights.
(37:43):
So every time we can get onhere and spread the word about
here's what you can do if youare being wronged, here's what
you can do if you are a victimof X, y and Z and we can help
you, we should do that.
We should take thoseopportunities.
Whether you're facing a toxicworkplace or trying to navigate
a volatile relationship,remember you're not alone.
Ilona (38:01):
There is real support out there and if you're feeling
unsure, confused or even afraidto take action.
That does not make you weak, itmakes you human.
Mila (38:10):
We hope this conversation gave you clarity, confidence and
maybe a little courage.
Ilona (38:15):
If you found this helpful , please share it with someone
who might need it and, as always, if you have questions, we're
just a DM away.
Mila (38:21):
Thanks for listening and make sure you subscribe on
YouTube so you never miss anepisode.
Ilona (38:26):
Stay strong stay bold and we'll see you on the next
season of the Glamorous Grind,and thank you for making our
first season such a success.
Welcome to the Glamorous Grind where grit meets glamour
and the law is always in style.
I'm Alona Antonian, a certifiedfamily law specialist and a
trial attorney, and I'm Mila.
Mila (00:11):
Aratunian, a trial attorney who specializes in
employment and personal injurylaw.
We are lawyers, friends andyour guides to real-life legal
drama.
Ilona (00:21):
Each week, we're breaking down unforgettable cases,
sharing incredible personaljourneys and sharing what keeps
us motivated, both in ourcareers and personal lives.
Mila (00:30):
So, whether you're hustling to make your own dreams
happen or just here for a goodstory, settle in with your
favorite drink, because we arebringing you wisdom, wit and a
whole lot of style.
It's law, it's life, it's theGlamorous Grind.
Ilona (00:55):
This episode is about power and how the law can either
protect it or be used to abuseit.
Mila (01:00):
We are talking about domestic violence, restraining
orders and workplace sexualharassment, areas where fear,
silence and legal confusionoften keep people stuck.
Ilona (01:12):
I'll be talking about the legal and strategic realities
of domestic violence restrainingorders, why some victims
hesitate to file, how theseorders can affect divorce and
custody, and what to do ifyou're hit with a frivolous
restraining order meant to gainadvantage and leverage in court
and I will be unpacking whatactually counts as sexual
harassment how the law definesit versus how it shows up in
(01:36):
real life, and what people needto know to recognize it and to
respond.
We'll break down how theseissues show up in real life and
in court, what victims need toknow and how the system can be
both a shield and a weapon.
Mila (01:51):
If you've ever questioned what's fair, what's legal or how
to fight back.
This conversation is for you,camila.
Ilona (01:59):
you practice employment law.
I'm an expert in family law.
There have been more domesticviolence restraining orders
filed in the last few years,especially since COVID, than
before.
What about you from employmentlaw perspective?
What do you see more of termsof litigation and or types of
cases that are coming up, andwhat's your perspective?
Mila (02:18):
From an employment law perspective and I really enjoy
the sexual harassment cases inthe employment law context.
But a lot of that kind of fallsalso into, you know, sexual
assault.
So all of that is kind ofintertwined and having to do
with women's rights and I thinkall around women are just
(02:39):
feeling more comfortablestanding up for themselves.
I think part of that is societyis making it okay.
I think part of it is also justknowledge, like the more you
know, everyone hates on socialmedia and there are certainly
negative aspects to it, but atthe same time I think a lot of
people and women are being moreinformed as to their rights and
(03:02):
things that they can do.
Ilona (03:03):
What about in California?
It can sometimes be exaggerated, Like you wink at somebody at
work and there goes a lawsuit.
You know, hey, that's sexualharassment.
Mila (03:12):
There are lawsuits that are exaggerated, for sure.
I think when I was on thedefense side defending employers
, there was a lawsuit where awoman was claiming that someone
harassed her by looking at her.
That's crazy.
Literally he was sitting at adesk and looking at her and the
jury found liability there.
Really, yeah, and they foundthat it was harassing.
(03:33):
The rights of employees are veryextensive, which is why most of
these cases settle, which iswhy most employment cases never
go to trial.
Oftentimes a lawsuit isn't evenfiled.
They would rather just settleit out than pay their attorney
$600 an hour to defend it.
And then also, a lot ofemployers don't have insurance
In a personal injury case mostcar accident cases there's
(03:56):
insurance at play, so the personisn't going to be personally
liable for the accident.
But employers have to buy aspecialty insurance.
It's called EPLI insurance.
It's very expensive and there'san extremely high deductible.
Usually a lot of companies,especially if they're not huge,
they won't even purchase thisinsurance.
But just to break it down, youbring a case for 20 causes of
(04:17):
action and you go to trial and ajury finds the employer is not
liable on anything except forone.
Let's say like complete BSclaims.
But there's like one thing, onething that the jury finds
liability for the plaintiff'sattorney, even if the jury
verdict is $5, the plaintiff'sattorney could get all of their
(04:38):
fees.
Ilona (04:38):
I don't agree with that.
As a business person, I don'tthink that's fair.
That kills the economy.
That puts people out ofbusiness.
I don't think that's fair.
That kills the economy, thatputs people out of business.
I don't think that's good.
It's not fair.
How are you going to want torun a business when you can face
that liability?
Yesterday I was at a businessmeeting and one of my colleagues
mentioned that they wererecently hit with what's called
(05:01):
a PACA PAGA, PAGA lawsuit, whichI'd never heard of before.
I'm like what is it?
Mila (05:05):
So PAGA is basically the state version of class actions,
like the California-specificstate version of class actions.
How I see PAGA is.
The only entity winning in aPAGA lawsuit is the attorney.
Ilona (05:19):
The government.
Mila (05:21):
Well, the government's getting it, yes, but the
government doesn't care for thatmoney.
But the plaintiff, who?
What do you?
Who?
Ilona (05:25):
they don't care about the money I mean they care about
the money.
Mila (05:28):
But I'm saying that the plaintiff who's bringing the
claim isn't winning anything.
They get a tiny amount.
The attorneys have an incentiveto work these cases up because
they'll get their fee regardless.
So they get a you know a couplemillion dollars in settlement
and most of that money will goto the attorney.
Ilona (05:46):
I think that there are many lawyers that may take
losses that could be BS, becausethe business owners may be more
tempted to settle rather thanlitigate.
I don't think that's fair.
I don't think that's good forthe state, I don't think that's
ethical from the attorneyperspective and from the
employee perspective.
But everybody tries to make aquick buck and not give a shit
(06:08):
about someone else Coming on tothe plaintiff side, from the
defense side.
Mila (06:13):
I was very hesitant to become a plaintiff's attorney
honestly because of that,Because I have my ethical code
and I don't want to take BScases, which is why I didn't go
and be a solo practitioner,because then I wouldn't have a
choice but to take BS cases,because I would need the money
and these cases almost alwayssettle.
But that's why I went to workfor a firm and one of the first
(06:35):
things I told the first firm Iworked at and one of the first
things I told you when I came towork with you is my integrity
is number one.
Ilona (06:43):
I'm not taking bullshit cases to work with you is my
integrity is number one.
I'm not taking bullshit casesand I love that when you said
that.
Hey, I have a strong moral codehere and I'm not going to take
on bullshit claims just to makequick money.
I'm comfortable with having anemployment law department
because of that.
I think there's certainly manyvictims and bad employers and
things that employees reportthat go unnoticed and people get
(07:03):
harassed and terminated for badreasons and there should be
justice for those people.
But I know many business ownerswho have faced bullshit
lawsuits brought by solepractitioners and others who
think they're going to be ableto squeeze money out of a
business, and I think thosebusinesses need to stand up for
(07:26):
themselves and fight back as aplaintiff's attorney and running
the team.
Mila (07:30):
I fired a lot of clients, even when money is offered.
I have fired clients because Ifind out they are lying and I
don't want to do that to thecompany.
And that's just me and mypersonal beliefs.
I believe in karma and I don'treally want it to come back and
bite me.
At the same time, I have to sayI also still love what I do and
fighting for people who werewrongfully terminated.
(07:52):
I mean I had a lady come to meand she found out she had cancer
and three weeks later theyfired her and she called me and
she didn't even want to stand upfor herself.
I was like are you insane?
She had three kids.
I literally called a otherattorney on the other side when
they got counsel and I was likeare you guys serious?
And then they tried to offerher her job back.
They were like oh, we'll takeher back.
(08:13):
I'm like are you, are you?
Ilona (08:14):
insane.
What is wrong with you?
In a short period I've beenwith my firm since january to
present I've noticed you made abig difference for many clients
you've represented in employmentlaw and the cases you have
taken.
It's real facts.
It's real injuries, emotionaland or physical, when it comes
to sexual abuse or otheremployment law harassment, and
(08:36):
I've been very proud of you.
Not only have you been able toresolve it very quickly, but for
a good sum of money for thosevictims.
But all of those cases hadmerit.
They're not bullshit cases.
So with that, what sort ofcases do you love?
Mila (08:52):
taking.
Yeah, I mean, my favorite casesreally are sexual harassment
and any like disabilitydiscrimination.
I really take close to hearttoo, because under California
law the employer, once they findout the employee has any type
of disability or issue, theyhave an affirmative duty to come
in and say hey, we know youhave this issue.
(09:13):
How can we accommodate you?
Can we turn off the lights?
Can we let you work from homeonce a week?
And a lot of times employersdon't do that.
They just say, hey, you'rescrewing up, you're fired.
And without even trying to seeif there's a way to accommodate
them or help them but how do you?
Ilona (09:27):
differentiate.
A bullshit excuse Becauseanybody can say, oh, I'm
stressed out.
I mean, who is not stressed out?
Everybody has some sort ofstress in their life.
Can you require real proof?
Mila (09:39):
You should require real proof before.
You don't have to accommodateanything that a doctor doesn't
recommend.
If I see gray areas in a case,I'm not going to be like, no,
let's litigate it, let's take itto the grave.
I'm like, okay, talk to myclient.
I'm like, hey, here are thegray areas in your case, let me
see what I can get you, whatmakes sense.
And I feel like, in a way, I'ma mediator, because part of my
job is to manage my client'sexpectations, make sure they
(10:02):
understand what litigationentails and also understand and
fight for my client with respectto the person.
And a lot of times people cometo me at one of some of the
hardest times of their lives,where they lose their jobs.
Sometimes they're longstandingemployees and I have to walk
them through it.
I have to make sure they're notmaking decisions based on
(10:25):
emotions.
I have to make sure theyunderstand the trauma that comes
with litigation, because onceyou file a lawsuit, they can
take the client's deposition,which re-traumatizes them in a
lot of cases.
Ilona (10:37):
They're medical records because if you're claiming
emotional distress or any sortof other, you know your
psychiatrist records will be atissue.
Mila (10:45):
And they can hire their own doctor to come in and do an
independent medical examinationof the plaintiff.
And those doctors are ruthlessbecause their job is to come in
and be like no, this person maybe depressed, but their
depression is actually caused byX Y Z.
Ilona (11:02):
And if someone has been in therapy and you get you, if
you get sued as a business, youcan get their discovery, even
though it may be subject toprotective order, that will only
that means, will only be usedin this litigation and only be
seen by attorneys and or thejudge and potentially the jury.
Mila (11:17):
As life happens, that's going to be a good defense, like
, hey, your emotional distressdidn't arise just because
somebody compliment you know,whatever happened at work, it
was because of all this otherstuff you had going on and I get
(11:38):
that a lot, especially if youknow if you're in therapy you're
going to talk about all of yourtraumas, if you were molested
as a child, if you were abusedby your parents, if you have a
bad relationship with yoursister.
They get all of that and thentheir doctor reviews all of the
records, comes in andaggressively attacks the patient
to put in a report that, oh,all of their PTSD is actually
(12:02):
caused by their childhoodtraumas of abuse.
Ilona (12:05):
But realistically, if you have so much stuff in your
medical records, a long historyof problems and all these issues
that you've been going totherapy with, could be
depression because of breakupwith a boyfriend, girlfriend.
Mila (12:16):
Well, what happens a lot of times and I actually have a
client right now that this isgoing on with when they may have
suffered some issues as a childor you know, in their lives,
and then they were fine.
And then they were fine andthey were functional and they
were a great employee and doinggreat, until something happened
in the workplace that causedthem to fall apart.
Ilona (12:38):
How severe is that?
Something to trigger certainevents from the past?
Mila (12:43):
Every person is different, right?
I mean you have the same kindof law in personal injury If you
get into a car accident withsomeone the HL plaintiff rule.
If you get into a car accidentwith someone and you know they
had a pre-existing injury thathad since healed, but now it's
exacerbated, you could be liablefor that injury.
Ilona (13:03):
To give an example of actual plaintiff is for those
who don't understand.
When I had a jury trial once onthat issue, I had an ex-shel
plaintiff.
So I brought an egg to myopening argument or it was
closing argument, I'm not surewhich one and I dropped it to
show the jury what an ex-shelplaintiff is relative to a hard
ball that obviously doesn'tbreak if you drop it.
(13:25):
So it's someone who has priorinjuries, whether it's
psychological or physicalinjuries, that is more
susceptible to greater injurybecause of the past existing
problems.
Mila (13:41):
It's really sad when that happens.
I mean, unfortunately, aworkplace does need to be
strictly professional, and Iknow that back in the day it was
completely different, butnowadays I mean I have to say it
people are different.
Nowadays, people are moresensitive, people are more
triggered, and I think allemployers have to be cognizant
(14:03):
of that and train theirsupervisors properly so that
anytime there's any issues, theyare addressed, because that's
really all that matters, right?
Employers can't ensureeverything is perfect, and I
always trained this when I wason the defense side.
You cannot control everythingto make sure everything is
perfect.
So what can you do?
What can you control whensomething happens?
When something comes up, youmake sure that it's addressed.
(14:25):
You do an investigation.
If the employer does that,they're not going to really have
a lawsuit.
Here's what happens.
If there's an instance wherethere's a harassing instance or
some type of sexual harassment,if a supervisor witnesses it,
the employer is liable for thesupervisor witnessing it,
(14:47):
because there's vicariousliability.
Ilona (14:49):
The supervisor's knowledge means the employer is
automatically aware there areproblems where the supervisor
may not report it up the chain,where they're supposed to for
the employer to take action.
They just think, okay, it's notgoing to happen again, or I'll
resolve it myself, or thesupervisor just tries to like,
talk to them, like, oh, I'lljust talk to them.
Mila (15:09):
That's not enough.
And the supervisor has a dutyto report to HR or to an
executive in the company.
And then the employer has aduty to investigate it.
And that could mean sittingdown the people and documenting
it, asking them what happenedand doing a write-up for the
person who screwed up and beinglike, hey, you can't do this,
(15:30):
you do this again, you're gone.
That is enough to make it avery strong defense for the
employer.
But the problem is those rulesaren't often followed.
Ilona (15:39):
Yeah, and for employers, it's a good idea to get either a
payroll service or an HRservice who will do that
investigation for you if you'renot equipped and if you don't
have an HR department.
For example, like ADP,totalsource, they have an HR
person that comes with yoursubscription, so if there's an
(15:59):
issue, you just report it tothem.
They'll investigate anddocument it and protect you.
Or there are other services aswell, like paychecks.
Mila (16:07):
Yeah, and there are now outside HR consulting companies.
In fact, june, june, ann, whowas here a couple weeks ago, he
was, he works for one.
There are outside HR consultingcompanies that that's all they
do is come into companies and doHR consulting, whether it's
consulting on your payroll stuffor consulting on investigation.
Ilona (16:27):
Yeah, so you don't have to have an in-house HR person.
You can either do it throughyour payroll company if they
offer that service, or you cansubscribe to another HR service
that you use or go to for onneed basis, that's part of the
cost of doing business inCalifornia is making sure your
personnel issues are in order.
Because people don't know whatthey don't know.
(16:48):
If someone was terminated, whatdo you think is the best way to
find out whether they have aclaim?
Mila (17:00):
The first thing we look at because California is an
at-will employment state right,so employers can legally
terminate anyone for any reasonor for no reason at all, as long
as they don't have a contractthat states the terms of the
employment.
But if that reason is illegal,obviously there's a claim there.
So what is illegal?
It has to be eitherdiscriminatory, so based on a
protected class that person wasterminated because they're a
(17:22):
woman.
That person was terminatedbecause they're African American
or because they're Muslim.
There has to be a causalconnection to the protected
class.
Ilona (17:32):
That would be religion, race, sex, gender.
Mila (17:37):
There's like 60 different categories in.
Ilona (17:38):
California.
What are the top 10?
Mila (17:40):
Yeah, it would be race, national, ethnicity, religion, I
.
The hairstyle is now aprotected class.
Yeah, anyone with ethnic hair.
So you know, employers can'thave policies now that prohibit
people from having their naturalhairstyles.
I did have a case one timewhere a man had, like, a beard
that he had to have for hisreligion and they tried to get
(18:02):
him to groom the beard that hehad to have for his religion.
And they tried to get him togroom the beard but because it
was part of his religion duringthat time of the year to have
his beard out, we made claimsand they settled the case.
Another thing that comes upoften is whistleblower If
someone makes a protectedcomplaint and they're terminated
.
Ilona (18:21):
What's a protected complaint?
Mila (18:21):
That's a great question because we learned this the hard
way.
But a protected complaint hasto be a complaint.
That's a great question becauseyou know we learned this the
hard way.
But a protected complaint hasto be a complaint of something
illegal.
So like what Drug use there's?
Like drug use in the companyand you make a complaint and
then later you're terminated,that's whistleblower.
If you make a complaint thatthe CEO is stealing money and
(18:43):
then you're terminated, thenthat's whistleblower.
If you make a complaint thatsomeone's being sexually
harassed or that you're beingsexually harassed, not only do
you have the sexual harassmentclaims, but you have
whistleblower claims and youhave wrongful termination claims
.
Ilona (18:55):
Is whistleblower claim different than wrongful
termination, and how?
Mila (18:59):
It is.
It's a separate claim.
So here's the thing that a lotof people kind of confuse is a
lot of people call me andthey'll be like my.
That a lot of people kind ofconfuse is a lot of people call
me and they'll be like mysupervisor is mean to me.
My supervisor is harassing me,they're creating a hostile work
environment for me.
That in and of itself may notbe illegal and that gets
confusing because a workplacedoesn't have to be a sorority
(19:20):
right, like your supervisordoesn't have to be super nice to
you.
Obviously, if it's harassing toa point where it's a hostile
work environment, putting youdown, publicly humiliating you,
you could have a hostile workenvironment claim.
But by itself it's not thatvaluable.
It has to.
It should be accompanied withsomething else.
(19:41):
And if you make a complaintthat your supervisor is mean,
that may not be protected forretaliation because that in and
of itself is not illegal.
And we've had cases like thatwhere we've brought them and the
attorney on the other side saysokay, they made a complaint
that the supervisor was mean.
The supervisor was mean becausethey had performance issues and
they were not performing.
(20:02):
That complaint in and of itselfis not a protected complaint
because it's not an illegalactivity.
Ilona (20:09):
Can you give us an example of like the juiciest
sexual harassment cases you'vesettled some of the facts and
how quickly you were able toresolve them?
Mila (20:18):
Sexual harassment is a big one when people are treated
differently on the job.
I see this a lot in lawenforcement.
Believe it or not, Lawenforcement and all public
entities seem to have a lot ofsexual harassment.
I think a lot of those entitieshave more of a big boys club
where the men are in charge andthe women are kind of put down
(20:40):
and subjected to negativetreatment, where there's
retaliation and there's sexualharassment and there's comments
and no one does anything aboutit because the you know, the
supervisors say oh, that's justhow he is, oh, he just grew up
in the 60s.
It's the culture of the places.
What's your advice to?
Ilona (20:58):
those who are getting sexually harassed at work.
Mila (21:01):
Document everything.
I encounter this problem somuch, not only in harassment but
in disability, discriminationcases, in retaliation cases.
People don't want it to getuncomfortable and are afraid to
document it, but that is why thelaws are made.
That is why legislature createdthe laws.
Once things are documented, theemployer has a duty to respond.
(21:26):
So put it in writing.
You can either submit acomplaint to human resources if
you don't have a human resourcesdepartment, small company,
submit it to your supervisor orto an executive, if you don't
feel comfortable to yoursupervisor.
It has to be in writing.
Ilona (21:41):
I have so many people it's important writing to
employer, not just keeping yourjournal at home and be like,
okay, I documented everything.
Here's the story I wrote upabout all the emotional damage.
Mila (21:52):
If the employer does not know that this is going on, they
have no duty to take action.
So I've had cases that came tome and there were all these
horrible things going on behindthe scenes but no supervisor was
ever apprised of it.
The employer didn't know.
The only way to get liabilityin that case really is if that
other employee who's harassingyou has had some type of
(22:14):
tendency to harass otheremployees and the employer
didn't do anything to protectyou that way.
But if the employer doesn'tknow, they have no duty to
protect you, so you're not goingto be protected.
So a lot of times people willcome to me and they're like oh,
I didn't, I just didn't feelcomfortable reporting it, I just
quit instead.
Like no.
Well then, they don't have aclaim and then if you, even if
(22:37):
you quit, you can still haveclaims under the law.
But you have to show that thework environment was so hostile
that no reasonable person couldhave been expected to sustain in
that environment.
So in your resignation emailyou need to put this is like a
perfect case is if you'reharassed, you make a report,
(22:58):
nothing is done to protect you,and then you can resign.
And then you can resign.
And in your resignation you sayyou, and then you can resign,
and then you can resign.
And in your resignation you sayon this day I made a report in
writing, attached the exhibit A,my email to HR.
Nothing was done to protect me.
This environment is too hostile, I can no longer sustain in it.
Ilona (23:19):
Therefore I'm resigning.
Is there a law in California asto the reasonable amount of
time that the employer shouldhave to investigate your
complaint?
Mila (23:23):
The employer- needs to take action immediately.
If they get a complaint, evenif it's like a BS complaint,
they have to take actionimmediately.
The employee can go to theemployer and say I've submitted
this complaint, I don't feelcomfortable being here, what can
I do?
They might be able to take timeoff.
They don't have time off.
They can go to a doctor, tellthem they're distressed.
They'll put them off work ondisability or they could take
(23:45):
their sick time Like there areways around that.
Ilona (23:47):
What's the statute of limitations?
How long does a person have tobring an employment lawsuit?
Three years, used to be two.
Three years from what?
Mila (23:59):
Three years from, basically, the date of the
wrongful action.
Unfortunately, sometimes youhave cases where there's ongoing
wrongful or retaliatory action.
Ilona (24:06):
So it's not from the last act, it's three years from each
individual act Basically.
Mila (24:11):
So like, for example, we had a case where a person had a
retaliate or, I'm sorry, sexualharassment claim and they agreed
to participate in aninvestigation because they were
sexually harassed and someoneelse brought this claim.
Um, subsequently they wereretaliated against for agreeing
(24:33):
to participate in thatinvestigation.
So are you following?
So the sexual harassmenthappened, then the retaliation
happened and then they had toquit and it was a constructive
termination.
Because it became so hostilethey had to quit.
But obviously the time passedand then by the time they were
ready to bring the lawsuit, itwas like two years after the
(24:55):
retaliation but more than threeyears after the initial sexual
harassment.
So there's no sexual harassmentwe tried to bring them, the
judge threw them out.
The judge said we can onlybring retaliation claims
Interesting.
The three things that companiescan do is create a culture of
accountability.
Train your people to make sureeveryone knows what they're
(25:15):
doing, knows their reportingduties and knows how to properly
investigate these claims.
And the third thing is believeyour staff, no matter how
insignificant the complaint mayseem.
Employers have a duty to do aproactive investigation.
Believe everything that's beingsaid and, based on the
(25:36):
investigation results, actaccordingly.
You know I've seen somerestraining orders.
I haven't worked a ton withrestraining orders in the
domestic violence sphere, but doyou see the restraining orders
as a weapon or a shield?
Ilona (25:52):
I see it more as a shield , but there's about 25% of them,
I would say, that are used as aweapon to gain leverage and
advantage in family court.
Because obtaining a restrainingorder is relatively easy and in
my experience you know I've hadto defend restraining orders
(26:12):
where one writes this storyabout all these things that
happen without putting dates ina declaration, like when certain
things happen.
They get a restraining orderjust by going and filing it over
the counter at the businessoffice.
The other side against whom therestraining order is sought
(26:33):
does not get noticed to be ableto defend themselves, so it's
issued over the counter, it getsserved on someone with
potentially a move out order.
It means they have to stay outof their house and move out
immediately until they get theircourt hearing in about two
weeks.
They potentially cannot seetheir children until that court
(26:55):
date for about two weeks andthere could be other
restrictions like no contact, etcetera.
Like no contact, et cetera.
But the problem is that ifsomeone is lying in that
declaration or is beingextremely vague or is talking
about events that may havehappened 20 years ago, where in
(27:17):
a case that I dealt with, thewife wrote like yeah, uh,
punched the wall.
He uh pinched my legs, uh, hedid x, y and z and it sounded
like this happened recently.
Because you get a restrainingorder because it's to protect
you.
Now because of events andviolence that happened recently
(27:41):
and turns out this was when Itook her deposition.
These people were in their 60snow.
This was when I took herdeposition.
These people were in their 60sNow.
This was when they were likemarried in their 20s, 40 years
ago.
But the way it was written upand filed with the court I think
the attorney in that case waseither didn't ask their client
or intentionally did this to getget leverage and kick my client
out of his own home.
(28:02):
They were very general inleaving dates out.
Can you get?
Mila (28:05):
any penalties against someone for lying to get a
restraining order.
Ilona (28:11):
Yes, if you prevail, then Family Code 6344 allows for
prevailing party fees.
You can also ask for Family Code271 sanctions for increasing
cost of litigation.
But that does not erase thedamage to your life, the damage
to your children, potentially,if you have small children,
where someone is kept fromseeing them, from visiting them,
(28:35):
from being in their own homeand having to be out in the
street and stay in a hotel orwith friends and get by until
they get to court.
And then what happens is thehearing generally must be held
within 21 days or 25 days at thelatest if it's for good cause
and if the responding party hasa right to seek continuance,
(28:57):
that has to be granted.
If they need more time toprepare but often one maybe gets
served shortly before thehearing date and they need an
attorney.
They show up and they're notready.
So it's already been two weeks.
You know that they've beenkicked out and they try to see
what to do, what this all means,or they may not have funds to
(29:17):
hire a lawyer and need more time.
So then the restraining ordergets continued and they're still
kept away, potentially fromseeing their kids or being away
from their home, not having alltheir belongings.
That's a bad situation to be inand the judges do their best to
be able to tell whether therestraining order that's filed
has merit or not, but they haveto take the statements at face
(29:40):
value to protect the potentialor alleged victim.
Mila (29:45):
Without giving the person an opportunity to respond.
Ilona (29:48):
Correct.
So in some counties the noticemust be given to the person
against whom you're seeking arestraining order unless there
is good cause not to that mayresult in more violence or them
taking off with the children outof state, or if it's related to
financial abuse in addition tophysical or emotional abuse,
that they could move money, thenyou will provide good cause to
(30:12):
the judge as to why notice ofrestraining order should not be
given, because it can result ingreater consequences for the
victim.
But in San Diego you don't haveto give notice and pretty much
the first hearing will bescheduled two weeks out and then
the victim gets to go and telltheir story without a response.
Mila (30:31):
What's the standard Like?
How bad does the abuse have tobe for a judge to grant a
restraining order?
Ilona (30:39):
The statutes get more vague and more vague as years go
by, shopper.
So there doesn't have to bejust physical abuse, obviously.
If it's physical abuse, thenit's a slam dunk restraining
order you're going to get andhopefully the victim was able to
take photographs and keep trackof their injuries and
(31:01):
additionally, and aside fromjust bringing a restraining
order case, if they're goingthrough a divorce or if they
have any sort of relationship,dating relationship, anything
else you can also bring a civilcomplaint in civil court and sue
for domestic violence and forassault, up to three years after
(31:22):
the incident happened, torecover financial damages in
civil court against theperpetrator of domestic violence
.
For physical abuse, that's easyto prove and especially if you
have medical records.
But yes, there's also emotionalabuse.
Emotional abuse is harder toprove.
Yes, there's also emotionalabuse.
Emotional abuse is harder toprove.
But the way you'll normally seeit and you have to be able to
(31:45):
describe it all to the court,either through testimony or
declarations is it can come in aform of coercive control
friends from their children,from their close support system,
manipulating the financials,threatening the person to you
(32:13):
know, threatening them in such away that holds them back from
exercising their legal right totake any sort of action, for
example threatening hey, I'mgoing to report you to the IRS
or I'm going to not help you getyour immigration papers like
restraining them from exercisingsome sort of legal right or
benefit they may otherwise have.
So but emotional distress ingeneral In California you can
(32:39):
get a restraining order if itdisturbs your peace.
If you disturb your peace, thenyou can get a restraining order,
but you have to be able toexplain how it disturbs your
peace.
It has to be severe enough sothat it would be disturbing, not
something basic.
But if there is a long historyof recurring emotional abuse
(33:00):
screaming at the children infront of the children, name
calling.
If someone went to a therapistto document it, that's strong to
show like, hey, I've been goingto therapy to deal with verbal
abuse and this is what I'velearned.
Mila (33:15):
So, from your experience, why do some victims hesitate to
file restraining orders if theyhave claims?
Ilona (33:21):
I think because they're victims of domestic violence and
they are attached andcodependent with the abuser.
But more often it can bebecause they're financially
dependent on that person andthey do not know their rights.
They don't know they can getchild support if they have
children together.
If they're married, they canget spouse support from the
abuser.
If they're married, they canget spouse support from the
abuser.
(33:41):
They also have rights to, ifthey're married, to community
property and assets and moneythat's in the bank that they may
have previously not had accessto.
Sometimes victims of domesticviolence are given X amount of
dollars a month to spend on acredit card or there's a limit
and they're controlled by theirabuser and they don't have
access to their cars or bankaccounts.
So there's a lot of financialpower to be gained through
(34:05):
obtaining child support orspouse support orders,
especially in the restrainingorder proceeding, because you
can get those a lot sooner thanif you just filed for divorce or
paternity action.
Mila (34:18):
And a good family law firm like ours has, like internal
forensic accounting folks whospecialize in that right.
Ilona (34:26):
Well, yes, Certified family law specialists should,
and most of us know how to readfinancials, how to analyze tax
returns, how to add things backthat sometimes the victim will
say, hey, well, he doesn't showany income or she doesn't show
any income.
They write everything off.
They live off free perks thatthey get through their
(34:46):
businesses.
That's where you need a help offorensic accountants.
Mila (34:51):
Are there ever situations where you recommend to your
clients to get restrainingorders and, if so, why?
What is the benefit of that?
Ilona (34:59):
Absolutely, and if so, why?
What is the benefit of that?
Absolutely.
Sometimes, when I listen tovictims of domestic violence
that came to talk about divorcebut they've been physically
abused by their spouse andpossibly as recently as within a
month or so, they came to seeme.
(35:20):
I absolutely recommend thatthey seek a restraining order
because there's a history ofrecurring abuse.
I would absolutely recommendanyone who's being abused in any
way to get a restraining order,at least temporarily, and
especially when they're going tobe going through a legal
proceeding, whether it's custodybattle or divorce.
Mila (35:35):
I don't know about you, but I think probably my favorite
part about being a lawyer and Ilove a lot of things about
being a lawyer and I love a lotof things about being a lawyer,
which I know most lawyers don'tsay that Most lawyers talk badly
about the profession.
I love being a lawyer.
I think it's great.
I don't think I would want todo any other profession
profession, but my favorite partis watching, you know, people
(35:57):
who were victims step into theirpower and feel empowered again,
and I see that a lot in theemployment context I was saying
before.
They come to me when they're intheir darkest, most difficult
places they lose their jobs,they're disabled or for whatever
reason, and then seeing themkind of feel empowered again and
feeling like, oh, there's alight at the end of the tunnel
(36:19):
really makes me feel purpose.
And I don't know if you feelthe same way with family and
love people.
Ilona (36:24):
I do, I really I care most.
I mean, I care about my clients, but it really bothers me when
someone gets abused and theyhave children together and they
don't stand up for themselves,because it has such a great
impact on the psyche of thosechildren.
It is your absolute duty whenthere is domestic violence in
(36:45):
your home to stand up, not justfor yourself but for your
children.
You owe it to them.
You had those children.
You have a duty to protect them.
Mila (36:53):
Yeah, I definitely think this conversation is important,
both you know.
From the family law perspective, I think it's important to
address what are the rights ofvictims.
I think a lot of times, victimsdon't know.
Ilona (37:06):
I think it was interesting to know what
employers can do to properlyaddress complaints and make sure
it's a healthy and positivework environment for everybody
that's there.
I think it's important toprotect people from any sort of
abuse that can happen at work.
It's difficult to know andunderstand your rights there.
I think it's important toprotect people from any sort of
abuse that can happen at work.
Mila (37:22):
It's difficult to know and understand your rights and I
think even us having thispodcast.
It's great and we have a lot ofguests on.
But you know, at our core, ourpassion and our real careers are
being lawyers and standing upfor people and fighting for
people's rights.
Up for people and fighting forpeople's rights.
(37:43):
So every time we can get onhere and spread the word about
here's what you can do if youare being wronged, here's what
you can do if you are a victimof X, y and Z and we can help
you, we should do that.
We should take thoseopportunities.
Whether you're facing a toxicworkplace or trying to navigate
a volatile relationship,remember you're not alone.
Ilona (38:01):
There is real support out there and if you're feeling
unsure, confused or even afraidto take action.
That does not make you weak, itmakes you human.
Mila (38:10):
We hope this conversation gave you clarity, confidence and
maybe a little courage.
Ilona (38:15):
If you found this helpful , please share it with someone
who might need it and, as always, if you have questions, we're
just a DM away.
Mila (38:21):
Thanks for listening and make sure you subscribe on
YouTube so you never miss anepisode.
Ilona (38:26):
Stay strong stay bold and we'll see you on the next
season of the Glamorous Grind,and thank you for making our
first season such a success.
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