July 29, 2025 • 36 mins
Is quiet quitting a form of self-care, silent protest… or just career sabotage in disguise?
In this episode of The Glamorous Grind, Ilona and Mila tackle the controversial workplace trend of quiet quitting. They break down the generational clash between hustle culture and the new wave of boundaries, the harsh realities of inflation, the emotional cost of underappreciation, and how to protect your peace—without sabotaging your career.
Whether you're burnt out, fed up, or just wondering if it's worth going the extra mile at work, this episode gives it to you straight. Learn how to set better boundaries, get clarity on what you want, and build the kind of career that serves your future—not just your frustration.
Grab your coffee or cocktail and tune in for unfiltered truth, tough love, and some glam grit.
Subscribe to The Glamorous Grind for more on ambition, law, lifestyle, and the realities of modern success.
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🎙️ Hosts: Ilona Antonyan & Mila Arutunian
📲 Follow us on IG: @glamorousgrindpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mila (00:00):
Welcome to the Glamorous Grind where grit meets glamour,
and ambition is never on silentmode.
Ilona (00:07):
Today we're diving into a hot-button issue across
industries Quiet quitting.
Is it a form of protest, a signof burnout, or is it just a
career messed up?
Mila (00:17):
in disguise, we're breaking down toxic workplaces,
generational shifts and what ittakes to really protect your
peace and build your power intoday's professional landscape.
So quiet, quitting is a worktrend where employees, while
(00:44):
still employed at an employer,will reduce their work quality
to like the bare minimum, andit's usually when they're
unhappy with something.
It's toxic or negative andrather than trying to
communicate it and make changes,they just stop performing well.
Ilona (01:03):
They just stop performing well, and I think what they
probably want to get out of itif they're trying to quit
quietly instead of speaking totheir employer so that the
employer could address it bymaking a change if it makes
sense, or at least consideringtheir opinion, because most
employers would like theiremployees to be happy and to
(01:26):
feel like they're heard.
But for the employer to knowwhat the problem is, aside from
the person's potentialdisinterest in life or work,
they need to hear directly fromthe employee or through
management what is the problemthat takes it to the level where
this person doesn't want towork there anymore.
Mila (01:47):
yeah, there's a cultural shift where people kind of
expect places of employment tobe I don't want to say a
sorority, but like.
People are just a lot moresensitive these days and part of
that is because of social media.
But you know, back in the dayworkplaces were not nice.
(02:09):
No one was nice to you and youcould criticize someone's work
product and it was fine and theywere expected to improve.
Ilona (02:17):
Ultimately, every business wants to deliver a good
service to their clients thatare paying money for it.
A good product to their clientsare paying money for it, so
it's important to have qualityemployees to take good care of
clients.
So, by resisting andunderperforming at your job
instead of just going andspeaking to your employer or you
(02:40):
know if it's not a right placefor you, go sooner than simply
waiting to be fired to thencollect unemployment benefits
because you are hurtingcustomers, clients.
Mila (02:50):
And the whole culture of quiet quitting.
They say, oh, it's becauseworkers are underpaid, but I
feel like it's so much broaderthan that.
I think it's inflation.
It's just the time we live innow.
I think employers are payingemployees very well.
You know, most employees aremaking good money.
The problem is, you can't liveoff that money anymore.
So whereas 50 years ago, youknow, a man could work in a gas
(03:15):
station and support a family offour and have a decent home and
buy food, now that's impossible.
I mean the minimum wage inCalifornia.
You can't live off of that.
So if you're a minimum wageearner, even if you're making
$30 an hour or $35 an hour, it'sbarely enough to cover your
(03:38):
minimum expenses.
So obviously, I think as aresult of that, people care less
about their jobs and keepingthose jobs.
Ilona (03:46):
You know, I think, that inflation has been a problem
historically Think of the 70s,80s, whatever but the work ethic
then was different than it isnow, because commitment to work
is commitment to yourself and toyour career and your growth.
If you do a good job, youremployer or somebody at the
company will see it.
You will grow within thecompany, you will advance, and
(04:08):
if there are places where thatmay not happen, if you stay at a
place long enough, it looksgood on your resume.
When I see resumes where peoplehave short-term jobs and they
just jump around, I don't wantto hire that person.
To me, this is a noncommittalperson.
She's going to come here, learna few things and be out, and
I'm wasting my time trainingthem.
(04:30):
Who knows if they're a badapple that's going to come here
and poison the.
Well, I mean, you don't know,but it doesn't look good on the
resume.
For that reason, a lot ofemployees nowadays also have
noticed do not put the recentplaces they worked on their
resume because they weren'tthere long enough.
And then during the interviewthey may be asked well, where's
the last place you worked andwhy is there such a long gap?
(04:51):
That raises questions fromemployer's perspective and I
don't think it's good for along-term career.
The benefit again, to me as animmigrant in America is that you
have a chance, no matter howpoor you are and even if you
work at a gas station and youcan barely afford your rent or
buy food.
I mean, I was there, my familywas there.
(05:11):
My dad was making $3 an hour.
You know it was a long time agoand we came to America but
painting walls and my mom had toclean homes and I had to go to
work at 14.
But you know you can still makeit.
Your lifestyle is different.
You're not going to be livingfancy, wearing fancy clothes,
eating, you know, expensive food.
My mom used to use coupons likeall the time.
(05:34):
But we knew we live in Americaand we know that here if we go
to school, if they do good attheir job, that there's hope
that you will step it up in lifeand I think people should
remember that.
Mila (05:51):
Here's the thing.
You had that work ethic, as didI, because we saw the other
side of it.
We saw the other side of thecoin where in other countries,
no matter how hard you work, youhave a ceiling and you're not
going above that ceiling.
Here we don't have that.
But unless you understand, like, really can conceptualize the
(06:15):
advantages of living in thiscountry, you can't even take
advantage of that if you wantedto.
I mean, I know plenty ofAmericans.
I mean we came here.
Our families didn't speakEnglish.
That didn't stop us from goingto college, going to law school,
you know taking loans because,like you know, you take loans to
get through school.
Ilona (06:32):
But it's all possible in America.
You get FAFSA, you get studentaid.
Mila (06:42):
There are so many Americans, too, who grow up here
and have families that speakEnglish, which we didn't have,
and have families that areeducated and they don't want to
go to college because it'seasier to be home.
And I think nowadays theculture is look for that
dopamine, look for what'seasiest to to get, look for
(07:02):
what's easiest because you haveto live and enjoy your life and
you know it's the like, drasticopposite of hustle culture is
what's being popular now.
Ilona (07:13):
It's all about how you perceive where you're headed and
where you're now and what youwant.
Mila (07:19):
But you don't really care about what you want.
Ilona (07:21):
If you don't have goals, if you don't set goals and you
don't revisit your goals, thenyou're going to be in this la-la
land.
I don't know what I'm doingtoday or tomorrow.
So I think it's about goalsetting.
Mila (07:32):
It's about goal setting.
It's also about personality,character and the society that
we live in now.
I mean, everywhere you turn,people are YouTube influencers
or social media influencers orwhatever it is.
They look like they're notreally doing work, but they're
actually working very hardbehind the scenes, but everyone
(07:52):
thinks that like that should bereal life.
So who wants to sit in anoffice and like review documents
or pick up phones or do all ofthese boring things when you
could go live your best life?
Ilona (08:03):
The good life is.
Ai is going to be reviewingdocuments soon, so that's off
your plate, don't have to worryabout that.
But those people who younggenerations now who focus on
their education, their futureand doing well at their jobs and
increase their performance andshow where they work that
they're really good, they careand they can do more, we'll go
(08:26):
further and we'll rule the worldeventually.
Because those who are notfocused right now, who are
living, you know, pura vida orwhatever right, being at the
beach and changing jobs here andthere, they're going to be way
behind.
Mila (08:40):
I'm going to say an unpopular opinion, but I think
there's a lot of truth to itthat our society now and I think
foundationally has goodintentions but we focus so much
on in childhood really praisingkids for things that maybe they
don't deserve to be praised for.
(09:00):
Right, you get the participationtrophies without really having
them earned a lot of times andyou want to do that for your
kids because you want them tofeel like they're champions,
even if they're standard orbasic right, like that's the
culture now.
But then these kids are growingup as adults and they're going
into the workplace and they'reputting in effort.
(09:21):
But if they don't get that likepat on the back good job,
you're doing so well, great job.
And like a trophy for everylittle thing that they do, they
don't want to keep doing it.
They're not incentivized tokeep trying unless they are
constantly given validation thateverything they're doing is
amazing, even if they're justdoing the bare minimum.
(09:42):
And I think that and thatunderlying culture plays a huge
part in this whole quiet,quitting movement and the
society, the culture.
I think, like you said before,the work ethic might be there,
but they need to be motivated towork and because they're so
used to constant validationgrowing up.
When they don't get that in theworkplace, their motivation
(10:03):
just fades.
Ilona (10:04):
I think you're right.
It's about focus.
Are they focused more on?
Hey, I want to be recognized.
You know, today I did a littlemore than my coworker did, so I
need to be recognized.
And if they don't, they feelunappreciated and I think that
then builds resentment againsttheir employer or their
supervisor or the company ingeneral, and then bad attitude
starts and they quit if they dida little more than what's
(10:25):
expected of them and then theyfeel not recognized.
Versus looking at it from adifferent perspective, I did a
little more today, a little hereand there, and I have a
potential to grow here, toimprove my skills and to go
further in my career.
I'm doing it for myself becausereally you are doing it for
yourself, because you're showingyourself how far you can go and
(10:47):
how much further you can takeit.
It doesn't have to be in thesame place with the same
employer.
If your employer doesn't seeyour potential, doesn't
appreciate you, doesn'tcompensate you fairly, yeah, go
find something else.
But focusing on small thingslike it just to like focusing
(11:07):
your negative energy against theemployer, versus introspect,
like here's who I am, here'swhat I can do, here's what else
I can do for me, for my careerand how I'm helping people and
clients.
I think that's more important.
Like I had jobs where, after lawschool, I was getting paid $13
an hour and it took me a lot ofnegotiations to raise it to 15
(11:30):
bucks an hour, when I wasalready like post bar clerk Okay
, that was like in 2000, 2002,but still then I passed the bar
exam and I wanted to negotiate asalary and my employer canceled
on me five times.
He didn't meet with me until Idecided to walk out to get his
attention.
And then I got an offer about$50,000 a year, which was below
(11:51):
the market at the time.
I know you came out making what?
68?
I got 50, but he said hecouldn't really pay it and
offered that we open up anoffice together and split the
rent in North Park, which is notwhere I saw having an office.
That made me curious what itwould be to open up my own
office.
Right, and I went and I did themath and did that on my own.
But sometimes employers simplycan't afford to pay a salary
(12:16):
that you may deserve because ofeconomic circumstances.
So then you have a choice, likeI did, to go open up your own
practice or go look for a jobsomewhere else, an employer who
can't afford to pay you more,but will expect more of you
because they are paying you more.
Like, how hard did you have towork when you were a new?
Mila (12:34):
attorney.
Oh my God, I worked crazy hours.
I was constantly trying to domore than everyone else, and
that's the, that's the goodthing like.
If you do have the work ethic,you will stand out.
Yes, I think people see that,but it's not easy and it's not
easy to sustain that and I can'tsay it was good for my mental
(12:57):
health.
I think everyone kind ofsuffered in my family because I
was.
We would go on vacation,especially when I was on the
defense side and I had billablehours.
I had to bill more thaneveryone else all the time, but
that's because you did it toyourself, right?
Not because your employerrequired it.
Yes, I did it to my, but I wasjust.
That's my work ethic is like.
I need to show that I'm notonly capable, but I will exceed
(13:19):
everyone's expectations, like myinner standard has always been
so ridiculously high for myselfthat it's the opposite extreme,
which is also, again, not good.
Ilona (13:29):
But I mean it's tough.
I absolutely agree and I thinkif you have family it takes a
toll and it's I don't know.
I can't speak for otherindustries, for attorneys.
It is tough when you have othercommitments and you just have
to find the right place for youat the right time, because you
know you may have the ability,want and desire to do it, but
(13:50):
just may not be the right timefor you to do it, because you
may have small children, you mayhave other commitments.
You're going to be unhappy ifit's not the right time, when
the time is right.
Really, you don't know anythingto anybody except for yourself
and then if you accept aposition, you owe it to the
clients and customers whodeserve your full attention and
the best you can be.
Mila (14:11):
I always felt like if I, since I went to law school and I
, you know, spent seven yearsgetting my doctorate and then
got this degree, I'm going to goall in like I'm not going to
half-ass it.
And I remember even working atJackson Lewis, which was a big
law firm, and every weekend,like I would be working.
And I still, to this day, Iwork every Saturday and Sunday
(14:33):
just because I don't like to bebehind on my emails.
That's just my personality.
But we would go on vacation andI would be like I need to bill
hours even though I had taken avacation day.
But I was like I'm not going toleave anything on the table and
people were like, why don't youjust go in-house and just work
eight to five?
I was like, why would I go tolaw school to work eight to five
?
Ilona (14:53):
I want to like I think it's OK for you want to dominate
and that was like moreimportant to you.
But again, for some people theymay want that, but just at a
different time.
I worked until I had kids and Ihad my daughter in 2019.
I worked a ton, every weekend Iworked, but I don't expect that
(15:14):
from people that work for me.
I don't expect that fromeveryone, because people have
different lives, differentpriorities.
So, if you have a family andthat's your number one priority-
it should be.
Mila (15:27):
Unfortunately, like, some people have families and you
know they have a schedule ifthey're a nurse and they have to
be there a certain amount ofhours or however else, or if you
have to pick your kids up afterschool.
So it just it becomes difficultto prioritize family when you
have a job, and I think that'salso another reason why a lot of
(15:50):
people are giving less emphasison their job and giving more
emphasis on their personal lives, which is contributing to this
quiet, quitting movement.
Okay, so we have a listener.
Question audience Q&A.
I just started my firstcorporate job and I'm already
feeling over it.
The culture is off, thecommunication is bad and I'm
questioning everything.
How do I know if I should stickwith it or find another job?
Ilona (16:14):
Okay, I would say, if you started a job and you right
away from first day or secondday, no, it's not a right fit,
you should just go.
Mila (16:29):
I don't know.
I think that a lot of timesthere's an adjustment period and
there's a lot of there are alot of negative feelings
associated with unfamiliarity.
And a lot of times, I mean,when I start my jobs, it's
exciting from one perspective,but it's also extremely
stressful as I'm learningprocesses, processes, procedures
, getting to get along witheveryone you have to.
You know, depending on if youreport to one boss or several,
(16:51):
you have to figure out theirpersonalities and what ticks
them.
All of that can be very highstress.
So I think, from oneperspective, you should try to
stick it out to see if itchanges, because once you are
more comfortable in theenvironment, maybe you'll feel
differently.
Ilona (17:08):
I think if your gut on your first or second day says,
hey, that's not for me, thenfollow your gut and find
something else, because you'llbe struggling with that,
constantly trying to see, okay,is this where I want to be, or
not, and you're going to wastethe employer's resources trying
(17:29):
to.
They're going to train you,you're going to establish
relationships and I think itdoes for you.
You're uncertain not because,look, you know, coming in a new
place of work, there's going tobe a learning curve everybody
has to undergo a learning curvebut it's just not the right
feeling, not the right culturefor you.
Something is not right, it'snot driving, and you know it,
(17:49):
and your gut is telling you that.
I would just say it's better toleave sooner than later because
, again, the team is relying onyou and you're going to
establish a relationship withclients, with customers, who are
then going to be let down whenyou leave later rather than
sooner because of the builtrelationship, including
(18:10):
coworkers.
Mila (18:11):
And I will add that if culture is not a fit, then the
culture is not a fit.
Cultures of places don't changeand they're pretty easily
ascertainable from day one.
So the role that burnout couldplay in quiet quitting, I think
is huge, because a lot of peopleare burnt out and it's not.
I think a lot of times burnoutis not just because of work,
(18:32):
it's because of our society.
And I'm not saying thereweren't always societal problems
.
There obviously always werewars and all of these awful
things.
But nowadays this widespreadinformation of just negative
news all the time, anytime youopen up Yahoo or Instagram or
TikTok, it's always just likepeople just like saying negative
(18:53):
things, negative articles aboutdeath.
That never used to be a thing.
The news stations do that onpurpose, because then you'll
want to turn them on.
But the fact is like we don'tunderstand how our brains wiring
is.
Like that's why they say whenyou wake up you shouldn't check
your phone, because that youknow when you wake up,
everything you put into yourmind is going to be kind of what
(19:14):
comes out.
But I think a lot of people areburnt out just because society
is so awful these days and ifyou're not aware of how it's
affecting you.
It causes burnout.
Ilona (19:23):
I don't know.
It sounds like BS.
Look, burned out.
Can you be burned out if yousimply work nine to five?
I think the answer is yes,because it depends.
What are you dealing with atwork?
Are you doing the job you don'tenjoy doing?
Are you working with co-workerswho are not nice to you?
(19:44):
You don't want to be aroundthem.
That can cause burnout.
Are you just bored of work andyou don't have enough to do?
Because if your day goes reallyslow, you'll be burned out
because that's not how you wantto spend your life.
It's moving too slow.
I feel like being busy is good,because then it goes like fast,
but that too can cause for someto be burned out because they
don't want to work so fast andhave so much expected of them.
(20:05):
I think it's different foreveryone on the individual level
, and everything can be putunder this cap of burnout, but
it's individual for each person,regardless of their schedule
right and based on theirattitude towards their work and
their work environment.
Mila (20:23):
I think most people need to find some type of purpose in
their work, and historically,that purpose could have been
supporting your family.
Like you, a lot of peopledidn't care what they did as
long as they brought in apaycheck, and that in and of
itself was sufficient purpose.
Ilona (20:39):
But nowadays that's not really a thing.
Supporting your family, I thinkit's honorable and that's a
thing to do if you have a family, but if you don't support
yourself, you gotta build yourfuture, but maybe people don't
care about that.
Mila (20:49):
Like most, people don't live for their future If they
live for it right now.
No, if you quit, you're notgoing to live for it.
Ilona (20:55):
You care about yourself because you're quitting, since
you don't like where you are orwho you're working with.
Mila (20:59):
You don't feel like dealing with it.
You don't feel like dealingwith adversity because it's hard
, so you don't want to do itanymore.
Ilona (21:04):
You're doing it because you love yourself more than
anything else.
So if you love yourself, havepride in where you have to go
and what you want to accomplishfor yourself.
Mila (21:12):
Okay.
So I remember this so well whenI was like 18 and I was working
at Aldo shoes and I rememberlike my mom was like you have to
go to college.
It wasn't even like a questionfor me.
I had to go to college.
And I remember the manager ofthe store came in and she was 19
and she's like, yeah, this ismy job, I'm just going to be a
manager.
And I was like why you don'twant more?
And she was like no, because Iwant to make money now.
(21:34):
I don't really care about likewhat goes on down the future.
And it hadn't even like clickedin my mind at that time that
that was a possibility, thatsome people think that way
because I was not raised in thatmanner.
But I think a lot of peoplethey don't think about their
future.
They don't think about how ismy credit going to be?
Am I going to be able to buy acar?
They're just like I don't feellike doing this now.
I'll find something else thatalso pays me 16 bucks an hour or
(21:56):
30 bucks an hour, and itdoesn't matter, and I don't
really give a shit how myco-workers are going to be
affected by me not performing,and I think that's just society
these days, like that'ssomething that we have to
address, that like.
But what people are, just notnice anymore, for people now
give a shit anymore.
Individualistic mentality, um,burnout, just toxic environment.
(22:18):
Everywhere you look on socialmedia like just everything has
changed in our culture and inour society With a toxic work
environment.
Some people consider it a toxicwork environment if they're not
constantly receiving validationor if they receive any
criticism when sometimes it'slike actual, legitimate
criticism, like you did a badjob, do better next time.
(22:38):
Employers are scared to saythis to employees because that
could be considered a hostilework environment.
I get cases all the time thatcome to me where people are like
my supervisor is mean and didthis and that and I made a
complaint.
But they made a complaint ofsomething that wasn't illegal.
It's not illegal to be mean inthe workplace California is an
at-will state, so but it's likeat what point does it reach the
(23:00):
level of hostile workenvironment?
It's technically, under the law, supposed to be severe and
pervasive, but like go ahead anddefine that and recurring right
.
Doesn't have to be recurring.
There was actually a courtruling that came out, I believe,
a couple years ago that saidthat even one action like if,
especially if it's adiscriminatory action, if it's
(23:21):
bad enough, it doesn't have tobe recurring and even one could
qualify as a hostile workenvironment.
Ilona (23:27):
Does the employer get a chance to cure if they didn't
know about it, and it happenedonce?
Mila (23:31):
If they didn't know about it, then obviously they're not
going to be liable for it.
But if a supervisor knew, theemployer automatically knows.
Ilona (23:40):
Right the agency vicarious knowledge.
Mila (23:42):
The question is what can employers do to address these
things before they start?
Ilona (23:47):
Have, I think, an open environment to welcome people's
opinions and thoughts about howto make it better for everyone.
Mila (23:57):
I think suggestion boxes like anonymous anonymous
suggestion boxes would behelpful.
Some employers have those sothat people can put in their
suggestions if they're feelinglike, or like anonymous hotlines
for HR complaints.
Ilona (24:09):
In my experience, like sometimes employees are scared
to come and talk to their bosses, like I know that I think, oh,
anybody can come talk to meabout anything.
But that's not how my employeesfeel.
Like some of them don't feelcomfortable to just come and
talk to me directly aboutsomething and they may go tell
their friend or they may go tellsomeone else.
And it never goes up to the topfor the employer to really
(24:33):
consider and make a change thatwould be beneficial for the
entire company, for others, tokeep the collegial work
environment, to keep everybodyhappy.
Maybe something small, but eventhat would be important for an
employer to know.
It just sometimes doesn't goall the way up to the top.
So how do you address?
Mila (24:52):
that it's tough, I mean, I think.
And then the other question isis the issue that's going on
with that individual, is it asubjective issue that they're
facing because of whateverthey're going through or their
personal experiences, or is itan actually a cultural thing?
Because, having representedboth employers and employees, I
(25:14):
have found personally that thevast majority of employers want
to keep their employees happy.
The vast majority of employersmake efforts, like very serious
efforts, to keep a positivecompany culture and who wouldn't
want their business to succeed?
Ilona (25:34):
If you are, if you're running a business, that is your
baby, you, that your employeesearnings, their livelihood
depends on you having asuccessful company to pay their
wages, to help them do better,also to sustain your lifestyle
and support your own childrenand family.
So business owners care aboutthe success of their business,
(25:57):
which means they care aboutkeeping their employees happy
and hearing from them so thatthey can keep the same pool of
people, so that if sometimes,you know, people grow apart, it
happens because when lifechanges, certain things and
attitudes change and sometimesit's okay to part, right, but
are you going to do it silently,through protest and sabotage
(26:19):
things before you leave, or areyou going to be an honest,
through protest and sabotagethings before you leave?
Or are you going to be anhonest person that's going to
say, okay, I'm honest withmyself and I'm going to be
honest with the people that I'veworked with for a while.
It's no longer just the rightfit for me, because I have
different goals in life,whatever it may be, and this is
not a place where I can continueto thrive or grow just based on
my own personal goals, and thenleave peacefully Like
(26:41):
peacefully mean be fair tobecause I believe in karma.
Be fair to yourself, youremployer, because your employer
is not just the person who ownsthe company.
Your employer is a company thatemploys your coworkers, your
former friends or currentfriends who are there and who
services clients.
(27:01):
So by trying to hurt or getrevenge towards your employer,
you are hurting thesustainability of the company
and potential jobs of others whoare there.
What is revenge?
Quitting?
It is a rising trend whereemployees abruptly leave toxic
(27:22):
or allegedly disrespectful jobsas an act of retaliation.
Not just quitting, but quittingloudly and dramatically to send
the point that they left for agood reason, including posting
social media posts and viralvideos that often go public.
Mila (27:39):
So why is this happening now?
It's a combination of things,including burnout, poor
management and lack offlexibility.
Ilona (27:47):
Or an excuse for their parents or friends to leave a
good job just because they wantto find the next great thing out
there.
Mila (27:54):
Workers are fed up with being overworked, underpaid or
disrespected, especiallypost-pandemic.
There is a cultural shift.
Gen Z and millennials aren'tafraid to walk away and call out
bad behavior.
And with boomers retiring, genX is stuck in the middle.
That's the new quiet.
(28:15):
Quitting is the revengequitting.
So what do you think about thatas an employer?
Ilona (28:19):
I think it's stupid.
I mean, if you're going to quit, it's your business, like if
you're doing it for the show, topost it on Instagram.
Is your intent just to makeyourself popular, to make it
look like you're such a victim,or is your intent to expose the
employer because they didsomething wrong?
The ones that I saw were like,oh, I'm getting fired, but just
(28:42):
to document they're being fired,like as if it's bad, but they
don't talk about theirperformance up to that.
Right, maybe they deserve to befired.
You don't know that they'retrying to dramatize the actual
moment of being fired and thenact out and make it dramatic of
being fired.
And then act out and make itdramatic it's bad because, well,
(29:03):
it probably it doesn't show thefull story, right?
The employers in California,unfortunately, their hands are
tied to really express the truereasons why somebody got fired,
because the employer then canget sued by opening up the
employee's HR file to the public.
Isn't that true?
(29:23):
So, for example, somebody doesa really shitty job or does
something bad.
Mila (29:27):
Well, they can't open it to the public.
Ilona (29:28):
Not to the public, but like the employer can't record a
video, like you know what?
You just didn't show up to work.
You called in sick many times.
You lied, you weren't sick.
I saw you partying online.
Like they can't just respondand say you're full of shit, you
can't, you can't.
And that's not fair, becauseone side can go and make up
whatever lies, yep, and theemployer's reputation will be
(29:51):
damaged, but they cannot go andsay the reality of why this
person no longer has a job.
So that is unfair.
And, for example, if someone nolonger works for an employer
and their future employer callsand says so what do you think
about him?
You kind of you're better offnot saying what you think.
(30:11):
Other ends like no comment willprobably say it all, but you
can't even comment.
So that's where I think theinequity is.
But there's inequities ineverything, so it is what it is.
Mila (30:22):
So let me tell you about this case that I had really
quickly.
I almost never represent peopleon the defense side, so this
office asked me to representthem and they had an employee
working there for about sixmonths and she got into a car
accident and she was constantlyout.
She was always 20 minutes late,30 minutes late, 40 minutes
late out last minute, like noshows, and it was probably 30 or
(30:46):
40 times that that happened.
I'm not even underestimating oroverestimating.
It was about you know that manytimes and it was all in text
messages of I'm running 20minutes late, I'm running 30
minutes late just a chain oftext messages.
I'm like this is easy, let'sgive her like five grand to walk
away and call it a day.
(31:06):
So the attorney reaches out andI told her I'm like, hey, take a
look at all these.
I had to upload it to a Dropboxlink because there were so many
texts I couldn't attach them toan email and I was like take a
look at this.
Here's $5,000.
Like, see what you can do.
This is not a case that's worthyour while.
I wouldn't file on this as aplaintiff's attorney.
She literally was like I'mfiling a lawsuit.
(31:27):
This is ridiculous.
I can't believe, after myclient was discriminated against
, after you know, sufferinginjuries from her accident even
though, like 80% of her callouts were because she had to
take her kids to school.
Ilona (31:41):
Well, you mentioned another episode if they were
hired and then have something toaccommodate.
As long as they provide medicalrecords, something the employer
stuck.
So is that a case here?
Mila (31:51):
If the reason she was out was all because of medical
appointments and the employerfailed to accommodate, it would
be one thing, but most of thereasons she was out was
unrelated.
She was just always latebecause she had to drop her kids
off and that was documented intext messages, not when you have
a schedule.
You can't just like come inwhenever you want if you have a
schedule.
So anyway, I ended up givingthat case over to one of my
(32:14):
defense firms that I workclosely with that does a really
good job.
Okay, let's decode this legallyQuiet quitting may feel
personal, but there are legalimplications if your employer
perceives it as insubordinationor performance decline.
Ilona (32:31):
It is very important for business owners to know the red
flags when anticipating quietquitting and how to properly
document it from bothperspectives.
So, mila, what can an employerdo if they perceive that someone
is getting ready for quietquitting?
Mila (32:53):
If an employer feels that someone is checked out and doing
quiet, quitting, technically,they can fire them.
As long as it's not because ofa protected class, they can fire
them.
It's obviously a differentstory if they're disabled or if
they have made some type ofprotected complaint.
Then they have to think twice.
But generally speaking, you canwrite them up and say they have
(33:14):
performance issues.
If they have performance issues, write them up and say they
have performance issues.
If they have performance issues, you know, usually what I would
always recommend when I was onthe defense side is employers
should have a very clear scopeof work for every employee, what
is expected of them, so that ifthey're not performing you can
easily point to where they'renot performing, where they're
not meeting the scope of theirwork that they are required to
meet.
(33:35):
You can write them up.
You can fire them.
California again at will stateyou can fire anyone for anything
or for no reason at all, aslong as it's not because of a
protected class.
Ilona (33:47):
Makes sense.
People should be protected andshould not be fired because of
their gender, their sex orbecause they're disabled, as
long as they can do the jobright?
Mila (33:55):
Yeah, absolutely, and there should be a written record
of it.
There should be a writtenrecord of you know whatever
they're not performing.
However, they're not performingwhere they're not meeting the
expectations that the employersets.
A lot of employers will alsohave what's called corrective
action plans or performanceimprovement plans, where they
put them on a plan for 30 daysor 60 days and you know they
(34:20):
make clear like this is what'sexpected of you.
This is where you're notmeeting your standard.
You have 30 days to improve andthen usually they'll have
weekly check ins with theirsupervisor to see how they're
doing.
Sometimes those help, but a lotof times those end up in
termination because if they'renot performing, usually if they
(34:42):
are checked out, there's not aton of room for improvement and
I feel just as sorry for theemployer as I do for the
individual going through thequiet quitting because
empathizing with them.
That must be difficult to comeinto a place every morning, day
in and day out, be unsatisfied,feel unvalidated, feel no
purpose and day out, beunsatisfied, feel unvalidated,
feel no purpose and checked outand continue to stay there
because you don't want to quitor maybe you can't, maybe you
(35:05):
need the money.
That is hard it is.
So, to all the people who arein this quiet, quitting position
right now, my recommendationwould be don't settle.
If you're happy, keep looking,and you should find purpose in
everything that you do.
Today's clam tip If you want tomake noise in your industry,
(35:25):
don't go quiet.
Show up, speak up, staystrategic.
Ilona (35:31):
Your voice matters.
So if you're unhappy aboutsomething, don't go quietly and
just quit.
Say what's the problem.
Give your employer a chance tofix it, to make it better for
everyone.
Mila (35:42):
So here's the takeaway Quiet, quitting might feel like
rebellion, but the real powerthat comes from clarity, that
comes from communication andcourageous moves.
Ilona (35:52):
We're not here to shame boundaries, but we are here to
remind you that your careerdeserves more than just silence.
Mila (35:59):
If this hit home, send it to someone navigating burnout or
a work crossroad.
Ilona (36:06):
And remember, the grind doesn't have to be toxic.
It can be transformational whenyou lead it with positive
intention.
Mila (36:13):
This is the Glamorous Grind, and we don't fade out
quietly, we rise audibly.
Ilona (36:20):
With purpose.
See you next week.
Welcome to the Glamorous Grind where grit meets glamour,
and ambition is never on silentmode.
Ilona (00:07):
Today we're diving into a hot-button issue across
industries Quiet quitting.
Is it a form of protest, a signof burnout, or is it just a
career messed up?
Mila (00:17):
in disguise, we're breaking down toxic workplaces,
generational shifts and what ittakes to really protect your
peace and build your power intoday's professional landscape.
So quiet, quitting is a worktrend where employees, while
(00:44):
still employed at an employer,will reduce their work quality
to like the bare minimum, andit's usually when they're
unhappy with something.
It's toxic or negative andrather than trying to
communicate it and make changes,they just stop performing well.
Ilona (01:03):
They just stop performing well, and I think what they
probably want to get out of itif they're trying to quit
quietly instead of speaking totheir employer so that the
employer could address it bymaking a change if it makes
sense, or at least consideringtheir opinion, because most
employers would like theiremployees to be happy and to
(01:26):
feel like they're heard.
But for the employer to knowwhat the problem is, aside from
the person's potentialdisinterest in life or work,
they need to hear directly fromthe employee or through
management what is the problemthat takes it to the level where
this person doesn't want towork there anymore.
Mila (01:47):
yeah, there's a cultural shift where people kind of
expect places of employment tobe I don't want to say a
sorority, but like.
People are just a lot moresensitive these days and part of
that is because of social media.
But you know, back in the dayworkplaces were not nice.
(02:09):
No one was nice to you and youcould criticize someone's work
product and it was fine and theywere expected to improve.
Ilona (02:17):
Ultimately, every business wants to deliver a good
service to their clients thatare paying money for it.
A good product to their clientsare paying money for it, so
it's important to have qualityemployees to take good care of
clients.
So, by resisting andunderperforming at your job
instead of just going andspeaking to your employer or you
(02:40):
know if it's not a right placefor you, go sooner than simply
waiting to be fired to thencollect unemployment benefits
because you are hurtingcustomers, clients.
Mila (02:50):
And the whole culture of quiet quitting.
They say, oh, it's becauseworkers are underpaid, but I
feel like it's so much broaderthan that.
I think it's inflation.
It's just the time we live innow.
I think employers are payingemployees very well.
You know, most employees aremaking good money.
The problem is, you can't liveoff that money anymore.
So whereas 50 years ago, youknow, a man could work in a gas
(03:15):
station and support a family offour and have a decent home and
buy food, now that's impossible.
I mean the minimum wage inCalifornia.
You can't live off of that.
So if you're a minimum wageearner, even if you're making
$30 an hour or $35 an hour, it'sbarely enough to cover your
(03:38):
minimum expenses.
So obviously, I think as aresult of that, people care less
about their jobs and keepingthose jobs.
Ilona (03:46):
You know, I think, that inflation has been a problem
historically Think of the 70s,80s, whatever but the work ethic
then was different than it isnow, because commitment to work
is commitment to yourself and toyour career and your growth.
If you do a good job, youremployer or somebody at the
company will see it.
You will grow within thecompany, you will advance, and
(04:08):
if there are places where thatmay not happen, if you stay at a
place long enough, it looksgood on your resume.
When I see resumes where peoplehave short-term jobs and they
just jump around, I don't wantto hire that person.
To me, this is a noncommittalperson.
She's going to come here, learna few things and be out, and
I'm wasting my time trainingthem.
(04:30):
Who knows if they're a badapple that's going to come here
and poison the.
Well, I mean, you don't know,but it doesn't look good on the
resume.
For that reason, a lot ofemployees nowadays also have
noticed do not put the recentplaces they worked on their
resume because they weren'tthere long enough.
And then during the interviewthey may be asked well, where's
the last place you worked andwhy is there such a long gap?
(04:51):
That raises questions fromemployer's perspective and I
don't think it's good for along-term career.
The benefit again, to me as animmigrant in America is that you
have a chance, no matter howpoor you are and even if you
work at a gas station and youcan barely afford your rent or
buy food.
I mean, I was there, my familywas there.
(05:11):
My dad was making $3 an hour.
You know it was a long time agoand we came to America but
painting walls and my mom had toclean homes and I had to go to
work at 14.
But you know you can still makeit.
Your lifestyle is different.
You're not going to be livingfancy, wearing fancy clothes,
eating, you know, expensive food.
My mom used to use coupons likeall the time.
(05:34):
But we knew we live in Americaand we know that here if we go
to school, if they do good attheir job, that there's hope
that you will step it up in lifeand I think people should
remember that.
Mila (05:51):
Here's the thing.
You had that work ethic, as didI, because we saw the other
side of it.
We saw the other side of thecoin where in other countries,
no matter how hard you work, youhave a ceiling and you're not
going above that ceiling.
Here we don't have that.
But unless you understand, like, really can conceptualize the
(06:15):
advantages of living in thiscountry, you can't even take
advantage of that if you wantedto.
I mean, I know plenty ofAmericans.
I mean we came here.
Our families didn't speakEnglish.
That didn't stop us from goingto college, going to law school,
you know taking loans because,like you know, you take loans to
get through school.
Ilona (06:32):
But it's all possible in America.
You get FAFSA, you get studentaid.
Mila (06:42):
There are so many Americans, too, who grow up here
and have families that speakEnglish, which we didn't have,
and have families that areeducated and they don't want to
go to college because it'seasier to be home.
And I think nowadays theculture is look for that
dopamine, look for what'seasiest to to get, look for
(07:02):
what's easiest because you haveto live and enjoy your life and
you know it's the like, drasticopposite of hustle culture is
what's being popular now.
Ilona (07:13):
It's all about how you perceive where you're headed and
where you're now and what youwant.
Mila (07:19):
But you don't really care about what you want.
Ilona (07:21):
If you don't have goals, if you don't set goals and you
don't revisit your goals, thenyou're going to be in this la-la
land.
I don't know what I'm doingtoday or tomorrow.
So I think it's about goalsetting.
Mila (07:32):
It's about goal setting.
It's also about personality,character and the society that
we live in now.
I mean, everywhere you turn,people are YouTube influencers
or social media influencers orwhatever it is.
They look like they're notreally doing work, but they're
actually working very hardbehind the scenes, but everyone
(07:52):
thinks that like that should bereal life.
So who wants to sit in anoffice and like review documents
or pick up phones or do all ofthese boring things when you
could go live your best life?
Ilona (08:03):
The good life is.
Ai is going to be reviewingdocuments soon, so that's off
your plate, don't have to worryabout that.
But those people who younggenerations now who focus on
their education, their futureand doing well at their jobs and
increase their performance andshow where they work that
they're really good, they careand they can do more, we'll go
(08:26):
further and we'll rule the worldeventually.
Because those who are notfocused right now, who are
living, you know, pura vida orwhatever right, being at the
beach and changing jobs here andthere, they're going to be way
behind.
Mila (08:40):
I'm going to say an unpopular opinion, but I think
there's a lot of truth to itthat our society now and I think
foundationally has goodintentions but we focus so much
on in childhood really praisingkids for things that maybe they
don't deserve to be praised for.
(09:00):
Right, you get the participationtrophies without really having
them earned a lot of times andyou want to do that for your
kids because you want them tofeel like they're champions,
even if they're standard orbasic right, like that's the
culture now.
But then these kids are growingup as adults and they're going
into the workplace and they'reputting in effort.
(09:21):
But if they don't get that likepat on the back good job,
you're doing so well, great job.
And like a trophy for everylittle thing that they do, they
don't want to keep doing it.
They're not incentivized tokeep trying unless they are
constantly given validation thateverything they're doing is
amazing, even if they're justdoing the bare minimum.
(09:42):
And I think that and thatunderlying culture plays a huge
part in this whole quiet,quitting movement and the
society, the culture.
I think, like you said before,the work ethic might be there,
but they need to be motivated towork and because they're so
used to constant validationgrowing up.
When they don't get that in theworkplace, their motivation
(10:03):
just fades.
Ilona (10:04):
I think you're right.
It's about focus.
Are they focused more on?
Hey, I want to be recognized.
You know, today I did a littlemore than my coworker did, so I
need to be recognized.
And if they don't, they feelunappreciated and I think that
then builds resentment againsttheir employer or their
supervisor or the company ingeneral, and then bad attitude
starts and they quit if they dida little more than what's
(10:25):
expected of them and then theyfeel not recognized.
Versus looking at it from adifferent perspective, I did a
little more today, a little hereand there, and I have a
potential to grow here, toimprove my skills and to go
further in my career.
I'm doing it for myself becausereally you are doing it for
yourself, because you're showingyourself how far you can go and
(10:47):
how much further you can takeit.
It doesn't have to be in thesame place with the same
employer.
If your employer doesn't seeyour potential, doesn't
appreciate you, doesn'tcompensate you fairly, yeah, go
find something else.
But focusing on small thingslike it just to like focusing
(11:07):
your negative energy against theemployer, versus introspect,
like here's who I am, here'swhat I can do, here's what else
I can do for me, for my careerand how I'm helping people and
clients.
I think that's more important.
Like I had jobs where, after lawschool, I was getting paid $13
an hour and it took me a lot ofnegotiations to raise it to 15
(11:30):
bucks an hour, when I wasalready like post bar clerk Okay
, that was like in 2000, 2002,but still then I passed the bar
exam and I wanted to negotiate asalary and my employer canceled
on me five times.
He didn't meet with me until Idecided to walk out to get his
attention.
And then I got an offer about$50,000 a year, which was below
(11:51):
the market at the time.
I know you came out making what?
68?
I got 50, but he said hecouldn't really pay it and
offered that we open up anoffice together and split the
rent in North Park, which is notwhere I saw having an office.
That made me curious what itwould be to open up my own
office.
Right, and I went and I did themath and did that on my own.
But sometimes employers simplycan't afford to pay a salary
(12:16):
that you may deserve because ofeconomic circumstances.
So then you have a choice, likeI did, to go open up your own
practice or go look for a jobsomewhere else, an employer who
can't afford to pay you more,but will expect more of you
because they are paying you more.
Like, how hard did you have towork when you were a new?
Mila (12:34):
attorney.
Oh my God, I worked crazy hours.
I was constantly trying to domore than everyone else, and
that's the, that's the goodthing like.
If you do have the work ethic,you will stand out.
Yes, I think people see that,but it's not easy and it's not
easy to sustain that and I can'tsay it was good for my mental
(12:57):
health.
I think everyone kind ofsuffered in my family because I
was.
We would go on vacation,especially when I was on the
defense side and I had billablehours.
I had to bill more thaneveryone else all the time, but
that's because you did it toyourself, right?
Not because your employerrequired it.
Yes, I did it to my, but I wasjust.
That's my work ethic is like.
I need to show that I'm notonly capable, but I will exceed
(13:19):
everyone's expectations, like myinner standard has always been
so ridiculously high for myselfthat it's the opposite extreme,
which is also, again, not good.
Ilona (13:29):
But I mean it's tough.
I absolutely agree and I thinkif you have family it takes a
toll and it's I don't know.
I can't speak for otherindustries, for attorneys.
It is tough when you have othercommitments and you just have
to find the right place for youat the right time, because you
know you may have the ability,want and desire to do it, but
(13:50):
just may not be the right timefor you to do it, because you
may have small children, you mayhave other commitments.
You're going to be unhappy ifit's not the right time, when
the time is right.
Really, you don't know anythingto anybody except for yourself
and then if you accept aposition, you owe it to the
clients and customers whodeserve your full attention and
the best you can be.
Mila (14:11):
I always felt like if I, since I went to law school and I
, you know, spent seven yearsgetting my doctorate and then
got this degree, I'm going to goall in like I'm not going to
half-ass it.
And I remember even working atJackson Lewis, which was a big
law firm, and every weekend,like I would be working.
And I still, to this day, Iwork every Saturday and Sunday
(14:33):
just because I don't like to bebehind on my emails.
That's just my personality.
But we would go on vacation andI would be like I need to bill
hours even though I had taken avacation day.
But I was like I'm not going toleave anything on the table and
people were like, why don't youjust go in-house and just work
eight to five?
I was like, why would I go tolaw school to work eight to five
?
Ilona (14:53):
I want to like I think it's OK for you want to dominate
and that was like moreimportant to you.
But again, for some people theymay want that, but just at a
different time.
I worked until I had kids and Ihad my daughter in 2019.
I worked a ton, every weekend Iworked, but I don't expect that
(15:14):
from people that work for me.
I don't expect that fromeveryone, because people have
different lives, differentpriorities.
So, if you have a family andthat's your number one priority-
it should be.
Mila (15:27):
Unfortunately, like, some people have families and you
know they have a schedule ifthey're a nurse and they have to
be there a certain amount ofhours or however else, or if you
have to pick your kids up afterschool.
So it just it becomes difficultto prioritize family when you
have a job, and I think that'salso another reason why a lot of
(15:50):
people are giving less emphasison their job and giving more
emphasis on their personal lives, which is contributing to this
quiet, quitting movement.
Okay, so we have a listener.
Question audience Q&A.
I just started my firstcorporate job and I'm already
feeling over it.
The culture is off, thecommunication is bad and I'm
questioning everything.
How do I know if I should stickwith it or find another job?
Ilona (16:14):
Okay, I would say, if you started a job and you right
away from first day or secondday, no, it's not a right fit,
you should just go.
Mila (16:29):
I don't know.
I think that a lot of timesthere's an adjustment period and
there's a lot of there are alot of negative feelings
associated with unfamiliarity.
And a lot of times, I mean,when I start my jobs, it's
exciting from one perspective,but it's also extremely
stressful as I'm learningprocesses, processes, procedures
, getting to get along witheveryone you have to.
You know, depending on if youreport to one boss or several,
(16:51):
you have to figure out theirpersonalities and what ticks
them.
All of that can be very highstress.
So I think, from oneperspective, you should try to
stick it out to see if itchanges, because once you are
more comfortable in theenvironment, maybe you'll feel
differently.
Ilona (17:08):
I think if your gut on your first or second day says,
hey, that's not for me, thenfollow your gut and find
something else, because you'llbe struggling with that,
constantly trying to see, okay,is this where I want to be, or
not, and you're going to wastethe employer's resources trying
(17:29):
to.
They're going to train you,you're going to establish
relationships and I think itdoes for you.
You're uncertain not because,look, you know, coming in a new
place of work, there's going tobe a learning curve everybody
has to undergo a learning curvebut it's just not the right
feeling, not the right culturefor you.
Something is not right, it'snot driving, and you know it,
(17:49):
and your gut is telling you that.
I would just say it's better toleave sooner than later because
, again, the team is relying onyou and you're going to
establish a relationship withclients, with customers, who are
then going to be let down whenyou leave later rather than
sooner because of the builtrelationship, including
(18:10):
coworkers.
Mila (18:11):
And I will add that if culture is not a fit, then the
culture is not a fit.
Cultures of places don't changeand they're pretty easily
ascertainable from day one.
So the role that burnout couldplay in quiet quitting, I think
is huge, because a lot of peopleare burnt out and it's not.
I think a lot of times burnoutis not just because of work,
(18:32):
it's because of our society.
And I'm not saying thereweren't always societal problems
.
There obviously always werewars and all of these awful
things.
But nowadays this widespreadinformation of just negative
news all the time, anytime youopen up Yahoo or Instagram or
TikTok, it's always just likepeople just like saying negative
(18:53):
things, negative articles aboutdeath.
That never used to be a thing.
The news stations do that onpurpose, because then you'll
want to turn them on.
But the fact is like we don'tunderstand how our brains wiring
is.
Like that's why they say whenyou wake up you shouldn't check
your phone, because that youknow when you wake up,
everything you put into yourmind is going to be kind of what
(19:14):
comes out.
But I think a lot of people areburnt out just because society
is so awful these days and ifyou're not aware of how it's
affecting you.
It causes burnout.
Ilona (19:23):
I don't know.
It sounds like BS.
Look, burned out.
Can you be burned out if yousimply work nine to five?
I think the answer is yes,because it depends.
What are you dealing with atwork?
Are you doing the job you don'tenjoy doing?
Are you working with co-workerswho are not nice to you?
(19:44):
You don't want to be aroundthem.
That can cause burnout.
Are you just bored of work andyou don't have enough to do?
Because if your day goes reallyslow, you'll be burned out
because that's not how you wantto spend your life.
It's moving too slow.
I feel like being busy is good,because then it goes like fast,
but that too can cause for someto be burned out because they
don't want to work so fast andhave so much expected of them.
(20:05):
I think it's different foreveryone on the individual level
, and everything can be putunder this cap of burnout, but
it's individual for each person,regardless of their schedule
right and based on theirattitude towards their work and
their work environment.
Mila (20:23):
I think most people need to find some type of purpose in
their work, and historically,that purpose could have been
supporting your family.
Like you, a lot of peopledidn't care what they did as
long as they brought in apaycheck, and that in and of
itself was sufficient purpose.
Ilona (20:39):
But nowadays that's not really a thing.
Supporting your family, I thinkit's honorable and that's a
thing to do if you have a family, but if you don't support
yourself, you gotta build yourfuture, but maybe people don't
care about that.
Mila (20:49):
Like most, people don't live for their future If they
live for it right now.
No, if you quit, you're notgoing to live for it.
Ilona (20:55):
You care about yourself because you're quitting, since
you don't like where you are orwho you're working with.
Mila (20:59):
You don't feel like dealing with it.
You don't feel like dealingwith adversity because it's hard
, so you don't want to do itanymore.
Ilona (21:04):
You're doing it because you love yourself more than
anything else.
So if you love yourself, havepride in where you have to go
and what you want to accomplishfor yourself.
Mila (21:12):
Okay.
So I remember this so well whenI was like 18 and I was working
at Aldo shoes and I rememberlike my mom was like you have to
go to college.
It wasn't even like a questionfor me.
I had to go to college.
And I remember the manager ofthe store came in and she was 19
and she's like, yeah, this ismy job, I'm just going to be a
manager.
And I was like why you don'twant more?
And she was like no, because Iwant to make money now.
(21:34):
I don't really care about likewhat goes on down the future.
And it hadn't even like clickedin my mind at that time that
that was a possibility, thatsome people think that way
because I was not raised in thatmanner.
But I think a lot of peoplethey don't think about their
future.
They don't think about how ismy credit going to be?
Am I going to be able to buy acar?
They're just like I don't feellike doing this now.
I'll find something else thatalso pays me 16 bucks an hour or
(21:56):
30 bucks an hour, and itdoesn't matter, and I don't
really give a shit how myco-workers are going to be
affected by me not performing,and I think that's just society
these days, like that'ssomething that we have to
address, that like.
But what people are, just notnice anymore, for people now
give a shit anymore.
Individualistic mentality, um,burnout, just toxic environment.
(22:18):
Everywhere you look on socialmedia like just everything has
changed in our culture and inour society With a toxic work
environment.
Some people consider it a toxicwork environment if they're not
constantly receiving validationor if they receive any
criticism when sometimes it'slike actual, legitimate
criticism, like you did a badjob, do better next time.
(22:38):
Employers are scared to saythis to employees because that
could be considered a hostilework environment.
I get cases all the time thatcome to me where people are like
my supervisor is mean and didthis and that and I made a
complaint.
But they made a complaint ofsomething that wasn't illegal.
It's not illegal to be mean inthe workplace California is an
at-will state, so but it's likeat what point does it reach the
(23:00):
level of hostile workenvironment?
It's technically, under the law, supposed to be severe and
pervasive, but like go ahead anddefine that and recurring right
.
Doesn't have to be recurring.
There was actually a courtruling that came out, I believe,
a couple years ago that saidthat even one action like if,
especially if it's adiscriminatory action, if it's
(23:21):
bad enough, it doesn't have tobe recurring and even one could
qualify as a hostile workenvironment.
Ilona (23:27):
Does the employer get a chance to cure if they didn't
know about it, and it happenedonce?
Mila (23:31):
If they didn't know about it, then obviously they're not
going to be liable for it.
But if a supervisor knew, theemployer automatically knows.
Ilona (23:40):
Right the agency vicarious knowledge.
Mila (23:42):
The question is what can employers do to address these
things before they start?
Ilona (23:47):
Have, I think, an open environment to welcome people's
opinions and thoughts about howto make it better for everyone.
Mila (23:57):
I think suggestion boxes like anonymous anonymous
suggestion boxes would behelpful.
Some employers have those sothat people can put in their
suggestions if they're feelinglike, or like anonymous hotlines
for HR complaints.
Ilona (24:09):
In my experience, like sometimes employees are scared
to come and talk to their bosses, like I know that I think, oh,
anybody can come talk to meabout anything.
But that's not how my employeesfeel.
Like some of them don't feelcomfortable to just come and
talk to me directly aboutsomething and they may go tell
their friend or they may go tellsomeone else.
And it never goes up to the topfor the employer to really
(24:33):
consider and make a change thatwould be beneficial for the
entire company, for others, tokeep the collegial work
environment, to keep everybodyhappy.
Maybe something small, but eventhat would be important for an
employer to know.
It just sometimes doesn't goall the way up to the top.
So how do you address?
Mila (24:52):
that it's tough, I mean, I think.
And then the other question isis the issue that's going on
with that individual, is it asubjective issue that they're
facing because of whateverthey're going through or their
personal experiences, or is itan actually a cultural thing?
Because, having representedboth employers and employees, I
(25:14):
have found personally that thevast majority of employers want
to keep their employees happy.
The vast majority of employersmake efforts, like very serious
efforts, to keep a positivecompany culture and who wouldn't
want their business to succeed?
Ilona (25:34):
If you are, if you're running a business, that is your
baby, you, that your employeesearnings, their livelihood
depends on you having asuccessful company to pay their
wages, to help them do better,also to sustain your lifestyle
and support your own childrenand family.
So business owners care aboutthe success of their business,
(25:57):
which means they care aboutkeeping their employees happy
and hearing from them so thatthey can keep the same pool of
people, so that if sometimes,you know, people grow apart, it
happens because when lifechanges, certain things and
attitudes change and sometimesit's okay to part, right, but
are you going to do it silently,through protest and sabotage
(26:19):
things before you leave, or areyou going to be an honest,
through protest and sabotagethings before you leave?
Or are you going to be anhonest person that's going to
say, okay, I'm honest withmyself and I'm going to be
honest with the people that I'veworked with for a while.
It's no longer just the rightfit for me, because I have
different goals in life,whatever it may be, and this is
not a place where I can continueto thrive or grow just based on
my own personal goals, and thenleave peacefully Like
(26:41):
peacefully mean be fair tobecause I believe in karma.
Be fair to yourself, youremployer, because your employer
is not just the person who ownsthe company.
Your employer is a company thatemploys your coworkers, your
former friends or currentfriends who are there and who
services clients.
(27:01):
So by trying to hurt or getrevenge towards your employer,
you are hurting thesustainability of the company
and potential jobs of others whoare there.
What is revenge?
Quitting?
It is a rising trend whereemployees abruptly leave toxic
(27:22):
or allegedly disrespectful jobsas an act of retaliation.
Not just quitting, but quittingloudly and dramatically to send
the point that they left for agood reason, including posting
social media posts and viralvideos that often go public.
Mila (27:39):
So why is this happening now?
It's a combination of things,including burnout, poor
management and lack offlexibility.
Ilona (27:47):
Or an excuse for their parents or friends to leave a
good job just because they wantto find the next great thing out
there.
Mila (27:54):
Workers are fed up with being overworked, underpaid or
disrespected, especiallypost-pandemic.
There is a cultural shift.
Gen Z and millennials aren'tafraid to walk away and call out
bad behavior.
And with boomers retiring, genX is stuck in the middle.
That's the new quiet.
(28:15):
Quitting is the revengequitting.
So what do you think about thatas an employer?
Ilona (28:19):
I think it's stupid.
I mean, if you're going to quit, it's your business, like if
you're doing it for the show, topost it on Instagram.
Is your intent just to makeyourself popular, to make it
look like you're such a victim,or is your intent to expose the
employer because they didsomething wrong?
The ones that I saw were like,oh, I'm getting fired, but just
(28:42):
to document they're being fired,like as if it's bad, but they
don't talk about theirperformance up to that.
Right, maybe they deserve to befired.
You don't know that they'retrying to dramatize the actual
moment of being fired and thenact out and make it dramatic of
being fired.
And then act out and make itdramatic it's bad because, well,
(29:03):
it probably it doesn't show thefull story, right?
The employers in California,unfortunately, their hands are
tied to really express the truereasons why somebody got fired,
because the employer then canget sued by opening up the
employee's HR file to the public.
Isn't that true?
(29:23):
So, for example, somebody doesa really shitty job or does
something bad.
Mila (29:27):
Well, they can't open it to the public.
Ilona (29:28):
Not to the public, but like the employer can't record a
video, like you know what?
You just didn't show up to work.
You called in sick many times.
You lied, you weren't sick.
I saw you partying online.
Like they can't just respondand say you're full of shit, you
can't, you can't.
And that's not fair, becauseone side can go and make up
whatever lies, yep, and theemployer's reputation will be
(29:51):
damaged, but they cannot go andsay the reality of why this
person no longer has a job.
So that is unfair.
And, for example, if someone nolonger works for an employer
and their future employer callsand says so what do you think
about him?
You kind of you're better offnot saying what you think.
(30:11):
Other ends like no comment willprobably say it all, but you
can't even comment.
So that's where I think theinequity is.
But there's inequities ineverything, so it is what it is.
Mila (30:22):
So let me tell you about this case that I had really
quickly.
I almost never represent peopleon the defense side, so this
office asked me to representthem and they had an employee
working there for about sixmonths and she got into a car
accident and she was constantlyout.
She was always 20 minutes late,30 minutes late, 40 minutes
late out last minute, like noshows, and it was probably 30 or
(30:46):
40 times that that happened.
I'm not even underestimating oroverestimating.
It was about you know that manytimes and it was all in text
messages of I'm running 20minutes late, I'm running 30
minutes late just a chain oftext messages.
I'm like this is easy, let'sgive her like five grand to walk
away and call it a day.
(31:06):
So the attorney reaches out andI told her I'm like, hey, take a
look at all these.
I had to upload it to a Dropboxlink because there were so many
texts I couldn't attach them toan email and I was like take a
look at this.
Here's $5,000.
Like, see what you can do.
This is not a case that's worthyour while.
I wouldn't file on this as aplaintiff's attorney.
She literally was like I'mfiling a lawsuit.
(31:27):
This is ridiculous.
I can't believe, after myclient was discriminated against
, after you know, sufferinginjuries from her accident even
though, like 80% of her callouts were because she had to
take her kids to school.
Ilona (31:41):
Well, you mentioned another episode if they were
hired and then have something toaccommodate.
As long as they provide medicalrecords, something the employer
stuck.
So is that a case here?
Mila (31:51):
If the reason she was out was all because of medical
appointments and the employerfailed to accommodate, it would
be one thing, but most of thereasons she was out was
unrelated.
She was just always latebecause she had to drop her kids
off and that was documented intext messages, not when you have
a schedule.
You can't just like come inwhenever you want if you have a
schedule.
So anyway, I ended up givingthat case over to one of my
(32:14):
defense firms that I workclosely with that does a really
good job.
Okay, let's decode this legallyQuiet quitting may feel
personal, but there are legalimplications if your employer
perceives it as insubordinationor performance decline.
Ilona (32:31):
It is very important for business owners to know the red
flags when anticipating quietquitting and how to properly
document it from bothperspectives.
So, mila, what can an employerdo if they perceive that someone
is getting ready for quietquitting?
Mila (32:53):
If an employer feels that someone is checked out and doing
quiet, quitting, technically,they can fire them.
As long as it's not because ofa protected class, they can fire
them.
It's obviously a differentstory if they're disabled or if
they have made some type ofprotected complaint.
Then they have to think twice.
But generally speaking, you canwrite them up and say they have
(33:14):
performance issues.
If they have performance issues, write them up and say they
have performance issues.
If they have performance issues, you know, usually what I would
always recommend when I was onthe defense side is employers
should have a very clear scopeof work for every employee, what
is expected of them, so that ifthey're not performing you can
easily point to where they'renot performing, where they're
not meeting the scope of theirwork that they are required to
meet.
(33:35):
You can write them up.
You can fire them.
California again at will stateyou can fire anyone for anything
or for no reason at all, aslong as it's not because of a
protected class.
Ilona (33:47):
Makes sense.
People should be protected andshould not be fired because of
their gender, their sex orbecause they're disabled, as
long as they can do the jobright?
Mila (33:55):
Yeah, absolutely, and there should be a written record
of it.
There should be a writtenrecord of you know whatever
they're not performing.
However, they're not performingwhere they're not meeting the
expectations that the employersets.
A lot of employers will alsohave what's called corrective
action plans or performanceimprovement plans, where they
put them on a plan for 30 daysor 60 days and you know they
(34:20):
make clear like this is what'sexpected of you.
This is where you're notmeeting your standard.
You have 30 days to improve andthen usually they'll have
weekly check ins with theirsupervisor to see how they're
doing.
Sometimes those help, but a lotof times those end up in
termination because if they'renot performing, usually if they
(34:42):
are checked out, there's not aton of room for improvement and
I feel just as sorry for theemployer as I do for the
individual going through thequiet quitting because
empathizing with them.
That must be difficult to comeinto a place every morning, day
in and day out, be unsatisfied,feel unvalidated, feel no
purpose and day out, beunsatisfied, feel unvalidated,
feel no purpose and checked outand continue to stay there
because you don't want to quitor maybe you can't, maybe you
(35:05):
need the money.
That is hard it is.
So, to all the people who arein this quiet, quitting position
right now, my recommendationwould be don't settle.
If you're happy, keep looking,and you should find purpose in
everything that you do.
Today's clam tip If you want tomake noise in your industry,
(35:25):
don't go quiet.
Show up, speak up, staystrategic.
Ilona (35:31):
Your voice matters.
So if you're unhappy aboutsomething, don't go quietly and
just quit.
Say what's the problem.
Give your employer a chance tofix it, to make it better for
everyone.
Mila (35:42):
So here's the takeaway Quiet, quitting might feel like
rebellion, but the real powerthat comes from clarity, that
comes from communication andcourageous moves.
Ilona (35:52):
We're not here to shame boundaries, but we are here to
remind you that your careerdeserves more than just silence.
Mila (35:59):
If this hit home, send it to someone navigating burnout or
a work crossroad.
Ilona (36:06):
And remember, the grind doesn't have to be toxic.
It can be transformational whenyou lead it with positive
intention.
Mila (36:13):
This is the Glamorous Grind, and we don't fade out
quietly, we rise audibly.
Ilona (36:20):
With purpose.
See you next week.
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