June 18, 2024 • 24 mins
Poet John Murillo delves into reckoning, the definition of masculinity and how we fictionalize memory in his wide-ranging conversation with host Camille Rankine in the first episode of The Glimpse.
Poems featured in this episode include Murillo's poem "On Confessionalism” and Etheridge Knight's poem “Cop-Out Session.”
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:02):
The Glimpse.
John Murillo (00:05):
I love that word reckoning. I think it's so
appropriate. I kind of shy away fromyou know, big words like like justice
and things like that. But I think youknow, reckoning there is a lot of that
happening.
Camille Rankine (00:18):
Welcome to The Glimpse. I'm your host Camille Rankine
John Murillo doesn't shy away fromreckoning. John is a poet and a
teacher, and has received fellowshipsfrom the NEA, Cave Canem, and the New
York Foundation for the Arts, amongmany others. His debut collection "Up
Jump the Boogie was a finalist forseveral awards, and his highly
(00:39):
anticipated follow-up collection wasreleased in 2020. John Murillo is our
guest today on The Glimpse. ReadingJohn Murillo's most recent book,
Kontemporary Amerikan Poetry, I foundmyself suspended, or maybe entangled
in this complex emotional web. Thework is threaded through with
(01:00):
considerations of rage, violence andanguish and the forces that create
them. But at the same time, there's adelicacy to the poems and a tight
control. I felt as if the poems tookthis question, "What are men capable
of?" and held it up to light, examinedit under glass through a skillful
musical lyricism. Welcome, John.Thanks for talking with us today.
John Murillo (01:24):
Thanks for having me.
Camille Rankine (01:25):
So I wanted to ask you about that title. Kontemporary
Amerikan Poetry. Is this book, thatsort of statement on poetics for you?
John Murillo (01:34):
In a way, in a way it is, you know, there were 10 years
between books, and I had a chance tokind of sit off to the side and
watch, you know, people writing theirbooks and promoting their books and
all this and that. And I think one ofthe things I was trying to do with
the book is to just bring somethinghonest back that I thought was
(01:55):
lacking, I thought a lot of what Iwas seeing and reading, seeing the
performative in many ways, and so itis kind of a critique of, and me just
kind of trolling in some ways. Butalso, if that makes any sense, and
also trying to be as authentic aspossible at the same time. Yeah,
Camille Rankine (02:13):
That's funny. I, I love that use the word trolling. I
did feel reading the book so manytimes. I was like, what are
you up to? Like, there was alittle bit of a wink? I thought in
some of the approaches.
John Murillo (02:27):
Exactly. Well, I am trolling myself too you know? It's
like that. And I think that's reallymore than anything in those poems.
What I'm trying to get at it's, it'skind of a self check. Right?
Camille Rankine (02:38):
Yeah, definitely. That that self check, I think is so
present throughout the book. And oneof the things that I feel like, was
just continually complicating thepoems I was reading, and I just
really loved that element of it somuch. So speaking of, I would love
for you to read one of the poems fromthe book if you would oblige us.
John Murillo (02:59):
Absolutely. Great. And I think I'm reading "On
Confessionalism" That's the one yes.Okay. All right. Not sleepwalking.
But waking still, with my hand on agun, and the gun in a mouth and the
mouth on the face of a man on hisknees. Autumn of '89 and I'm standing
(03:26):
in a section eight apartment parkinglot pistol cocked, and staring down
at this man, then up into the mug ofan old woman staring, watering the
single sad flower to the left of herstoop. The flower also staring. My
engine idling behind me, a slowmoaning bassline and the bark of a
(03:49):
dead rapper nudging me on. All to say,someone's brokenhearted. And this man
with the gun in his mouth, this manwho like me is really little more
than a boy may or may not havesomething to do with it. May or may
(04:09):
not have said a thing or two,betrayed a secret, say, that walked my
love away. And why not say it (04:15):
She adored me. And I, her. More than anyone,
anything in life, up to then, and thenstill, for two decades after. And,
therefore, went for broke. Blacked outand woke having gutted my piggy and
(04:38):
pawned all my gold to buy what ahomeboy said was a Beretta. Blacked
out and woke, my hand on a gun, thegun in a mouth, a man who was really
a boy on his knees. And because Iloved the girl, I actually paused
(04:59):
before I pulled the trigger—once,twice, three times—then panicked not
just because the gun jammed, butbecause what if it hadn't, because
who did I almost become, there, thatafternoon, in a Section 8
(05:21):
apartment parking lot, pistol cocked,with the sad flower staring, because
I knew the girl I loved, no matterhow this all played out, would never
have me back. Day of damagedammo, or grime that clogged the
(05:42):
chamber. Day of faulty rods orsprings come loose in my fist. Day
nobody died, So why not hallelujah?Say amen or Thank you. My mother
sang for years of God, babes andfools. My father, lymph node masses
(06:07):
fading from his x-rays, said survivingone thing means another comes and
kills you. He's dead, and so I trusthim. Dead. And so I'd wonder years
about the work I left undone—boy onhis knees a man now risen,and likely
(06:33):
plotting his long way back to me.Fuck it. I tucked my tool like the movie
gangsters do and jumped back in mybucket. Cold enough day to make a
young man weep, afternoon wheneverything, or nothing, changed
(06:54):
forever. The dead rapper grunted, thebaseline faded, my spirits whispered
something from the trees. I left, thenlost the pistol in a storm drain
somewhere between that life and this.Left the pistol in a storm drain, but
(07:18):
never got around to wiping away theprints.
Camille Rankine (07:23):
Thank you so much for that.
John Murillo (07:25):
Thank you.
Camille Rankine (07:26):
I love that poem. And it's a long one. It's like
it really sustains your interestand pulls you along.
John Murillo (07:36):
When I'm giving readings, like that's the thing where
I feel bad for the listeners oftenbecause I write really long poems.
And I'm just, you know, hoping thatthey're paying attention and staying
with me the whole time, because you never know.
Camille Rankine (07:48):
I want to ask you about the title On Confessionalism.
Like why did you choose that title?And? And are you making an argument
about confessionalism here?
John Murillo (07:59):
Yeah, I don't know that I'm consciously making an argument.
So one of the things that I wastrying to do in the book, at least
for myself, really was to think aboutthis space between our, our lived
lives and the lives that we showothers or rather, our true selves and
(08:19):
our performed selves, right. Andalso the way we perform self to self,
right? And the way memory changesover time. So I'm confessing
something in that poem. But also whatI'm doing is just playing with memory
and fiction in a way we fictionalizedmemory.
Camille Rankine (08:38):
I mean, I think there's some things that you don't
want to admit to yourself, even whenyou're confessing, you know, that's
something that it's maybe one of thebiggest challenges is there's things
that you don't want to open that dooreven to yourself. So to do it in a
confession feels impossible. I feellike that's, that's something that
must be occurring as for people aswell.
John Murillo (08:56):
Yeah. All the time, all the time.
Camille Rankine (08:59):
So this is the first poem in the book, can you talk about,
like why you made the choice to starthere?
John Murillo (09:05):
I didn't want the poems about violence, or let's say police
or state sanctioned violence, to takeup too much psychic territory, right?
I wanted it to still be inconversation with or rather, how do I
say about the violences we cause one another, and self. So the first
(09:31):
poem that one that I just read, ithas to do with violence, but it's
more of an interpersonal violence.And I think it helps to set up a
voice that I think is really speakingthroughout the rest of the poems and
serves as a touchstone. I think thatif I would have started with another
poem, it would have framed the bookdifferently. And
Camille Rankine (09:54):
I thought the ending was really interesting too the way
that we have this ending where theprints are still on the gun and that's
the image that's kind of where we exitthe poem. And it feels like sort of
this acknowledgment that there's achance for this to reverberate still,
like this event doesn't is notclosed, it's not kind of over,
(10:17):
there's still this sort of dangling.And
John Murillo (10:21):
it's the the prints that are left on the gun, but also
the prints in terms of the impressionthat is left on the speaker. Right.
So the speaker is always looking overtheir shoulder, you know, throughout
the rest of their life.
Camille Rankine (10:35):
I think that's the impression, it leaves you with that
sense that this can still come backto you. It's not a closed door. I
think in part because there's a senseof that the reckoning with the event,
and it's continuous in the poem, theway we see that revision and, and
reframing and re-understandingthat reckoning continues kind of
(10:56):
throughout.
John Murillo (10:58):
I love that word reckoning. I think it's so
appropriate. I kind of shy away from,you know, big words like, like
justice and things like that. But Ithink, you know, reckoning is a lot
of that happening and has beenhappening for the last several years.
You know. And, and maybe this is whyso many of us are inauthentic with
(11:21):
the selves that we create, is thatwhere we're kind of flinching at the
idea of that reckoning
Camille Rankine (11:28):
one of the things I was thinking about with this poem in
the book as a whole was, there's alot of exploration of violence and
anger, and kind of their entanglementwith masculinity as well, which I
think is really fraught thing forblack and brown people and black
brown men. And I wonder, like, isthat something that you were
consciously navigating as you as youmade these poems?
John Murillo (11:50):
So one of the things that's, that is important to me, and
I wasn't writing towards thisconsciously, are the ways that we've
inherited as black and brown men.This this idea that, that masculinity
is dependent upon how effective wecan enact violence, on others on
(12:13):
ourselves, right? I think about mygeneration, growing up in the 70s and
80s. And the effect of the VietnamWar had on us in that a lot of our
fathers were sent out to combat andeither did not come back or came back
damaged, and left a whole generationof us boys teaching each other how to
(12:37):
be men. And a boy's idea of a man isthis kind of cartoonish. Hyper,
violent, masculine brute, right. AndI think a lot of the issues that I
had coming up was what I felt was ashortcoming. My inability to live up
(12:58):
to a lot of that, and trying to do mybest too So a lot of the things that
I've done in my own life, that havebrought me the most shame, have
really been me, acting out of thatsense of wanting to prove myself to
some abstract judge of what ismasculine, that I too, am a man,
Camille Rankine (13:28):
I really liked hearing your thinking through that. I think
growing up in this country, it'simpossible for violence not to be
kind of touching you and forming youin some way.
John Murillo (13:39):
I think you're absolutely right. And it informs so
much by how we interact with oneanother. And I think one possible
response to that is tenderness andcare. You know, what I want to think
about, like my students, just with,you know, so many of them are going
through, and the world that they'reinheriting. It just makes me adore
them that much more, you know, andthe same with friends and family
(14:02):
members. You know, it was such arough place, that I think, you know,
it really calls for more of that caremore of that tenderness.
Camille Rankine (14:15):
So thinking about this poem, I want to ask one more
thing about just like the way thatyou utilize music and repetition. And
I wonder if you could talk aboutlike, how sound plays into the way
you make a poem. Yeah.
John Murillo (14:32):
I think my, my first encounter with poetry was with my
ears, not my eyes, you know, I cameto poetry not as a reader at first I
came as a listener and the the poetsI listened to were rappers were MCs
and I came to writing as a rapper. Sofor me sound music has always been
(14:55):
really important. And I think youknow, Lawrence Ferlinghetti. He once
said that the press Getting pressruined poetry. And one of the things
I think he meant by that was thatwhen we started writing for the page,
a lot of us lost that sense of theoral and aural pleasures that poetry
can give. And I think that when thepoems are really working when they're
(15:19):
firing on all cylinders, it's partsong part cinema, right? So your
images are working, but also, youhave something that's keeping the
reader or the listener engaged. Andso I think that when the poems are
really working well, there's noseparation, right?
Camille Rankine (15:39):
Oh, I think this is a good time for a little break.
The Halsteads (15:50):
We hope you're enjoying The Glimpse. It's just one small part of
the Adrian Brinkerhoff PoetryFoundation. We're the founders Peter
and Cathy Halstead. Our goal is tomake poetry more accessible to
everyone. And we do that in a varietyof ways. Through partnerships, our
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(16:16):
hope these works will lure you into aparallel universe. The way a Mobius
strip, brings you into anotherdimension without leaving the page
you're on. Thanks for listening.
Camille Rankine (16:33):
OK we're back. So we're gonna talk about a poem that inspires
you. Can you tell us which poemyou've chosen? Yeah,
John Murillo (16:39):
so I've chosen this poem by one of my favorite poets
Etheridge, Knights. Etheridge Knightis one of my favorite poets. This is
not one of my favorite EtheridgeKnight poems. But there's something
compelling about this. I'll read itand then I'll talk about it. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. So the poem is called "CopOut Session." I done shot dope, been
(17:04):
to jail, swilled wine, ripped offsisters, passed bad checks, changed my
name, howled at the moon wrote poemsturned back over flips flipped over
backwards. In other words, I've beenconfused, fucked up scared, phony and
(17:25):
jive to a whole lot of people,haven't you? In one way or another?
Anybody else want to cop out? So thisis a short poem, of his but I think
what I find most compelling, he's anuneven poet, right? So some poems are
way better than others. At his best,he's really singing. But one of the
(17:49):
things that I love about him, inaddition to his range, is how honest
he is right? So for your listenerswho may not know Etheridge Knight is
a poet who served in the Korean WarIn the war he got a shrapnel wound.
And because of the shrapnel wound,developed an addiction to
(18:12):
opioids, painkillers. Once he wasdischarged, he committed a robbery or
burglary, I think, trying to feed hisaddiction, and went to prison. And it
was in prison where he startedwriting and reading poems. And while
he's in prison, he begancorresponding with other poets,
(18:35):
Gwendolyn Brooks, among them, and youknow, he got out and was one of the,
I think, most important poets in thetradition. He's known primarily for
his prison poems. But he also hassome really beautiful love poems. And
in that poem, particular, I just lovethe honesty. He's just putting it all
(18:57):
out there, right? I've done this,I've done that I'm a piece of shit,
blah, blah, blah, aren't you? Yeah,
Camille Rankine (19:03):
yeah, it definitely it has that again, that self critical
gaze. Like we're talking about theidea of reckoning and how how that
has to be inward as well as outward.And how people have had a hard time
with that. I mean, understandably.And I love what you're saying about
that notion of being a good personand how it's like a posture people
(19:23):
want to adopt, but don't want toperform.
John Murillo (19:27):
And even that idea, right, Camille like the idea of a
good person, like what does that evenmean? We're very complex, right? And
the thing that I noticed just in thecourse of us living our lives, right,
becoming who we are going to be likeyou will hurt people. But I think
this idea of when we reduce it tosuch a binary --good and bad, or
(19:50):
good and evil, which is really ajuvenile way of looking at things. I
think. We do ourselves a disserviceas humans and also as literally as as
writers,
Camille Rankine (20:02):
as a writer, I think it's really important to never exempt
yourself from seeing critically andanalytically. And yeah, I like that
this poem. It's both doing that work.But it also was a confrontation at
the end, like, and you your turn.
John Murillo (20:24):
Yeah. And so, you know, you read a poem like that, and you
either take up the challenge or youor you don't, right. But if you're
taking it up, honestly, you know,there is some risk involved. Right?
You might reveal a self to yourselfthat is hard to live with. You may
(20:44):
lose friends, you may loseinstitutional support. Right. Yeah.
So you know, that's, that's a realthing.
Camille Rankine (20:54):
I'm thinking about the way this poem moves too. You know,
there's a moment like halfwaythrough, where he kind of distills
and kind of reframes what everythingabove means. In other words, I've
been confused, fucked up, scared,phony and jive. It's like, another
(21:14):
confession, like another layer ofconfession that happens there.
John Murillo (21:17):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there's something in this
moment it's so vulnerable, so raw,there's nothing there's no dressing
it up. It's just like, look, this iswhat what it is. Yeah. And each of
those things, right. When you thinkabout, again, this self that we
present, how many of us are willingto say that we've been scared? And
(21:40):
phony? Right.
Camille Rankine (21:42):
So you said this was not your favorite Etheridge Knight
poem? Do you have a favorite?
John Murillo (21:47):
Wow. You know? Yeah, I do actually and I don't know why? Like,
that's a hard question. Feeling Fucked up is my favorite Etheridge Knight.
Camille Rankine (21:57):
Mine too! I'm obsessed With that poem. It's so good
John Murillo (22:01):
That poem, I mean, it's so good. And I mean, and to me, it's
like when you talk about love poems.That's it right there.
Camille Rankine (22:10):
Yeah. So before we wrap up, I want to ask you what, what
are you working on right now? Do youhave anything in the works?
John Murillo (22:18):
Oh, man. I've been scribbling badly for the past couple
of years. But I did finish acollection of translations Rafael
Alberti, his book "Concerning theAngels." So I translated that this
past year, and that's coming out in2025. Nicole and I, we wrapped
up the "Dear Yusef" anthology, editingthat that's coming out in 2024. But
(22:45):
as far as the poems I'm kind oftrying to vary my influences,
listening to different music,watching different films, reading
different poets, and just seeing whatI can glean from them. And just
waiting and seeing how it affects thewriting and just giving myself time.
(23:07):
I hope there's not 10 years betweenbooks two and three.
Camille Rankine (23:12):
Yeah, well, I'll give you all the grace. You take your
time you take your time, John, thankyou.
Thanks for joining us today. I'm yourhost Camille Rankine. John's poem "On
(23:33):
Confessionalism" from his book.Kontemporary AmeriKan Poetry was
aired with permission from Four WayBooks. The Etheridge Knight poem Cop
Out Session comes from the book TheEssential Etheridge Knight copyright
1986 Thanks to the University ofPittsburgh Press for permission to
air it. Coming up next week. Ama Code digs into Bluest Nude, and
talks about why Gwendolyn Brooksshows up in some unlikely places in
(23:57):
her poetry. Make sure to like andsubscribe to The Glimpse wherever you
get your podcasts. You can also findepisodes on our website Brinkerhoff
poetry.org. If you have any questionsor comments, please drop us an email
at The Glimpse poetrypodcast@gmail.com. The Glimpse is a
production of the AdrianBrinkerhoff Poetry Foundation. I'm
(24:18):
your host Camille Rankine. Our seniorproducer is Jennifer Wolfe, Kat Yore is
our technical director and mixingengineer, editorial director Amanda
Glassman, is our curator and productioncoordinator. Amy Holmes is the
foundation's executive director and ourco-founders are Cathy and Peter Halstead
thanks for listening
The Glimpse.
John Murillo (00:05):
I love that word reckoning. I think it's so
appropriate. I kind of shy away fromyou know, big words like like justice
and things like that. But I think youknow, reckoning there is a lot of that
happening.
Camille Rankine (00:18):
Welcome to The Glimpse. I'm your host Camille Rankine
John Murillo doesn't shy away fromreckoning. John is a poet and a
teacher, and has received fellowshipsfrom the NEA, Cave Canem, and the New
York Foundation for the Arts, amongmany others. His debut collection "Up
Jump the Boogie was a finalist forseveral awards, and his highly
(00:39):
anticipated follow-up collection wasreleased in 2020. John Murillo is our
guest today on The Glimpse. ReadingJohn Murillo's most recent book,
Kontemporary Amerikan Poetry, I foundmyself suspended, or maybe entangled
in this complex emotional web. Thework is threaded through with
(01:00):
considerations of rage, violence andanguish and the forces that create
them. But at the same time, there's adelicacy to the poems and a tight
control. I felt as if the poems tookthis question, "What are men capable
of?" and held it up to light, examinedit under glass through a skillful
musical lyricism. Welcome, John.Thanks for talking with us today.
John Murillo (01:24):
Thanks for having me.
Camille Rankine (01:25):
So I wanted to ask you about that title. Kontemporary
Amerikan Poetry. Is this book, thatsort of statement on poetics for you?
John Murillo (01:34):
In a way, in a way it is, you know, there were 10 years
between books, and I had a chance tokind of sit off to the side and
watch, you know, people writing theirbooks and promoting their books and
all this and that. And I think one ofthe things I was trying to do with
the book is to just bring somethinghonest back that I thought was
(01:55):
lacking, I thought a lot of what Iwas seeing and reading, seeing the
performative in many ways, and so itis kind of a critique of, and me just
kind of trolling in some ways. Butalso, if that makes any sense, and
also trying to be as authentic aspossible at the same time. Yeah,
Camille Rankine (02:13):
That's funny. I, I love that use the word trolling. I
did feel reading the book so manytimes. I was like, what are
you up to? Like, there was alittle bit of a wink? I thought in
some of the approaches.
John Murillo (02:27):
Exactly. Well, I am trolling myself too you know? It's
like that. And I think that's reallymore than anything in those poems.
What I'm trying to get at it's, it'skind of a self check. Right?
Camille Rankine (02:38):
Yeah, definitely. That that self check, I think is so
present throughout the book. And oneof the things that I feel like, was
just continually complicating thepoems I was reading, and I just
really loved that element of it somuch. So speaking of, I would love
for you to read one of the poems fromthe book if you would oblige us.
John Murillo (02:59):
Absolutely. Great. And I think I'm reading "On
Confessionalism" That's the one yes.Okay. All right. Not sleepwalking.
But waking still, with my hand on agun, and the gun in a mouth and the
mouth on the face of a man on hisknees. Autumn of '89 and I'm standing
(03:26):
in a section eight apartment parkinglot pistol cocked, and staring down
at this man, then up into the mug ofan old woman staring, watering the
single sad flower to the left of herstoop. The flower also staring. My
engine idling behind me, a slowmoaning bassline and the bark of a
(03:49):
dead rapper nudging me on. All to say,someone's brokenhearted. And this man
with the gun in his mouth, this manwho like me is really little more
than a boy may or may not havesomething to do with it. May or may
(04:09):
not have said a thing or two,betrayed a secret, say, that walked my
love away. And why not say it (04:15):
She adored me. And I, her. More than anyone,
anything in life, up to then, and thenstill, for two decades after. And,
therefore, went for broke. Blacked outand woke having gutted my piggy and
(04:38):
pawned all my gold to buy what ahomeboy said was a Beretta. Blacked
out and woke, my hand on a gun, thegun in a mouth, a man who was really
a boy on his knees. And because Iloved the girl, I actually paused
(04:59):
before I pulled the trigger—once,twice, three times—then panicked not
just because the gun jammed, butbecause what if it hadn't, because
who did I almost become, there, thatafternoon, in a Section 8
(05:21):
apartment parking lot, pistol cocked,with the sad flower staring, because
I knew the girl I loved, no matterhow this all played out, would never
have me back. Day of damagedammo, or grime that clogged the
(05:42):
chamber. Day of faulty rods orsprings come loose in my fist. Day
nobody died, So why not hallelujah?Say amen or Thank you. My mother
sang for years of God, babes andfools. My father, lymph node masses
(06:07):
fading from his x-rays, said survivingone thing means another comes and
kills you. He's dead, and so I trusthim. Dead. And so I'd wonder years
about the work I left undone—boy onhis knees a man now risen,and likely
(06:33):
plotting his long way back to me.Fuck it. I tucked my tool like the movie
gangsters do and jumped back in mybucket. Cold enough day to make a
young man weep, afternoon wheneverything, or nothing, changed
(06:54):
forever. The dead rapper grunted, thebaseline faded, my spirits whispered
something from the trees. I left, thenlost the pistol in a storm drain
somewhere between that life and this.Left the pistol in a storm drain, but
(07:18):
never got around to wiping away theprints.
Camille Rankine (07:23):
Thank you so much for that.
John Murillo (07:25):
Thank you.
Camille Rankine (07:26):
I love that poem. And it's a long one. It's like
it really sustains your interestand pulls you along.
John Murillo (07:36):
When I'm giving readings, like that's the thing where
I feel bad for the listeners oftenbecause I write really long poems.
And I'm just, you know, hoping thatthey're paying attention and staying
with me the whole time, because you never know.
Camille Rankine (07:48):
I want to ask you about the title On Confessionalism.
Like why did you choose that title?And? And are you making an argument
about confessionalism here?
John Murillo (07:59):
Yeah, I don't know that I'm consciously making an argument.
So one of the things that I wastrying to do in the book, at least
for myself, really was to think aboutthis space between our, our lived
lives and the lives that we showothers or rather, our true selves and
(08:19):
our performed selves, right. Andalso the way we perform self to self,
right? And the way memory changesover time. So I'm confessing
something in that poem. But also whatI'm doing is just playing with memory
and fiction in a way we fictionalizedmemory.
Camille Rankine (08:38):
I mean, I think there's some things that you don't
want to admit to yourself, even whenyou're confessing, you know, that's
something that it's maybe one of thebiggest challenges is there's things
that you don't want to open that dooreven to yourself. So to do it in a
confession feels impossible. I feellike that's, that's something that
must be occurring as for people aswell.
John Murillo (08:56):
Yeah. All the time, all the time.
Camille Rankine (08:59):
So this is the first poem in the book, can you talk about,
like why you made the choice to starthere?
John Murillo (09:05):
I didn't want the poems about violence, or let's say police
or state sanctioned violence, to takeup too much psychic territory, right?
I wanted it to still be inconversation with or rather, how do I
say about the violences we cause one another, and self. So the first
(09:31):
poem that one that I just read, ithas to do with violence, but it's
more of an interpersonal violence.And I think it helps to set up a
voice that I think is really speakingthroughout the rest of the poems and
serves as a touchstone. I think thatif I would have started with another
poem, it would have framed the bookdifferently. And
Camille Rankine (09:54):
I thought the ending was really interesting too the way
that we have this ending where theprints are still on the gun and that's
the image that's kind of where we exitthe poem. And it feels like sort of
this acknowledgment that there's achance for this to reverberate still,
like this event doesn't is notclosed, it's not kind of over,
(10:17):
there's still this sort of dangling.And
John Murillo (10:21):
it's the the prints that are left on the gun, but also
the prints in terms of the impressionthat is left on the speaker. Right.
So the speaker is always looking overtheir shoulder, you know, throughout
the rest of their life.
Camille Rankine (10:35):
I think that's the impression, it leaves you with that
sense that this can still come backto you. It's not a closed door. I
think in part because there's a senseof that the reckoning with the event,
and it's continuous in the poem, theway we see that revision and, and
reframing and re-understandingthat reckoning continues kind of
(10:56):
throughout.
John Murillo (10:58):
I love that word reckoning. I think it's so
appropriate. I kind of shy away from,you know, big words like, like
justice and things like that. But Ithink, you know, reckoning is a lot
of that happening and has beenhappening for the last several years.
You know. And, and maybe this is whyso many of us are inauthentic with
(11:21):
the selves that we create, is thatwhere we're kind of flinching at the
idea of that reckoning
Camille Rankine (11:28):
one of the things I was thinking about with this poem in
the book as a whole was, there's alot of exploration of violence and
anger, and kind of their entanglementwith masculinity as well, which I
think is really fraught thing forblack and brown people and black
brown men. And I wonder, like, isthat something that you were
consciously navigating as you as youmade these poems?
John Murillo (11:50):
So one of the things that's, that is important to me, and
I wasn't writing towards thisconsciously, are the ways that we've
inherited as black and brown men.This this idea that, that masculinity
is dependent upon how effective wecan enact violence, on others on
(12:13):
ourselves, right? I think about mygeneration, growing up in the 70s and
80s. And the effect of the VietnamWar had on us in that a lot of our
fathers were sent out to combat andeither did not come back or came back
damaged, and left a whole generationof us boys teaching each other how to
(12:37):
be men. And a boy's idea of a man isthis kind of cartoonish. Hyper,
violent, masculine brute, right. AndI think a lot of the issues that I
had coming up was what I felt was ashortcoming. My inability to live up
(12:58):
to a lot of that, and trying to do mybest too So a lot of the things that
I've done in my own life, that havebrought me the most shame, have
really been me, acting out of thatsense of wanting to prove myself to
some abstract judge of what ismasculine, that I too, am a man,
Camille Rankine (13:28):
I really liked hearing your thinking through that. I think
growing up in this country, it'simpossible for violence not to be
kind of touching you and forming youin some way.
John Murillo (13:39):
I think you're absolutely right. And it informs so
much by how we interact with oneanother. And I think one possible
response to that is tenderness andcare. You know, what I want to think
about, like my students, just with,you know, so many of them are going
through, and the world that they'reinheriting. It just makes me adore
them that much more, you know, andthe same with friends and family
(14:02):
members. You know, it was such arough place, that I think, you know,
it really calls for more of that caremore of that tenderness.
Camille Rankine (14:15):
So thinking about this poem, I want to ask one more
thing about just like the way thatyou utilize music and repetition. And
I wonder if you could talk aboutlike, how sound plays into the way
you make a poem. Yeah.
John Murillo (14:32):
I think my, my first encounter with poetry was with my
ears, not my eyes, you know, I cameto poetry not as a reader at first I
came as a listener and the the poetsI listened to were rappers were MCs
and I came to writing as a rapper. Sofor me sound music has always been
(14:55):
really important. And I think youknow, Lawrence Ferlinghetti. He once
said that the press Getting pressruined poetry. And one of the things
I think he meant by that was thatwhen we started writing for the page,
a lot of us lost that sense of theoral and aural pleasures that poetry
can give. And I think that when thepoems are really working when they're
(15:19):
firing on all cylinders, it's partsong part cinema, right? So your
images are working, but also, youhave something that's keeping the
reader or the listener engaged. Andso I think that when the poems are
really working well, there's noseparation, right?
Camille Rankine (15:39):
Oh, I think this is a good time for a little break.
The Halsteads (15:50):
We hope you're enjoying The Glimpse. It's just one small part of
the Adrian Brinkerhoff PoetryFoundation. We're the founders Peter
and Cathy Halstead. Our goal is tomake poetry more accessible to
everyone. And we do that in a varietyof ways. Through partnerships, our
film series, this podcast, and ourwebsite, Brinkerhoff poetry.org. We
(16:16):
hope these works will lure you into aparallel universe. The way a Mobius
strip, brings you into anotherdimension without leaving the page
you're on. Thanks for listening.
Camille Rankine (16:33):
OK we're back. So we're gonna talk about a poem that inspires
you. Can you tell us which poemyou've chosen? Yeah,
John Murillo (16:39):
so I've chosen this poem by one of my favorite poets
Etheridge, Knights. Etheridge Knightis one of my favorite poets. This is
not one of my favorite EtheridgeKnight poems. But there's something
compelling about this. I'll read itand then I'll talk about it. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. So the poem is called "CopOut Session." I done shot dope, been
(17:04):
to jail, swilled wine, ripped offsisters, passed bad checks, changed my
name, howled at the moon wrote poemsturned back over flips flipped over
backwards. In other words, I've beenconfused, fucked up scared, phony and
(17:25):
jive to a whole lot of people,haven't you? In one way or another?
Anybody else want to cop out? So thisis a short poem, of his but I think
what I find most compelling, he's anuneven poet, right? So some poems are
way better than others. At his best,he's really singing. But one of the
(17:49):
things that I love about him, inaddition to his range, is how honest
he is right? So for your listenerswho may not know Etheridge Knight is
a poet who served in the Korean WarIn the war he got a shrapnel wound.
And because of the shrapnel wound,developed an addiction to
(18:12):
opioids, painkillers. Once he wasdischarged, he committed a robbery or
burglary, I think, trying to feed hisaddiction, and went to prison. And it
was in prison where he startedwriting and reading poems. And while
he's in prison, he begancorresponding with other poets,
(18:35):
Gwendolyn Brooks, among them, and youknow, he got out and was one of the,
I think, most important poets in thetradition. He's known primarily for
his prison poems. But he also hassome really beautiful love poems. And
in that poem, particular, I just lovethe honesty. He's just putting it all
(18:57):
out there, right? I've done this,I've done that I'm a piece of shit,
blah, blah, blah, aren't you? Yeah,
Camille Rankine (19:03):
yeah, it definitely it has that again, that self critical
gaze. Like we're talking about theidea of reckoning and how how that
has to be inward as well as outward.And how people have had a hard time
with that. I mean, understandably.And I love what you're saying about
that notion of being a good personand how it's like a posture people
(19:23):
want to adopt, but don't want toperform.
John Murillo (19:27):
And even that idea, right, Camille like the idea of a
good person, like what does that evenmean? We're very complex, right? And
the thing that I noticed just in thecourse of us living our lives, right,
becoming who we are going to be likeyou will hurt people. But I think
this idea of when we reduce it tosuch a binary --good and bad, or
(19:50):
good and evil, which is really ajuvenile way of looking at things. I
think. We do ourselves a disserviceas humans and also as literally as as
writers,
Camille Rankine (20:02):
as a writer, I think it's really important to never exempt
yourself from seeing critically andanalytically. And yeah, I like that
this poem. It's both doing that work.But it also was a confrontation at
the end, like, and you your turn.
John Murillo (20:24):
Yeah. And so, you know, you read a poem like that, and you
either take up the challenge or youor you don't, right. But if you're
taking it up, honestly, you know,there is some risk involved. Right?
You might reveal a self to yourselfthat is hard to live with. You may
(20:44):
lose friends, you may loseinstitutional support. Right. Yeah.
So you know, that's, that's a realthing.
Camille Rankine (20:54):
I'm thinking about the way this poem moves too. You know,
there's a moment like halfwaythrough, where he kind of distills
and kind of reframes what everythingabove means. In other words, I've
been confused, fucked up, scared,phony and jive. It's like, another
(21:14):
confession, like another layer ofconfession that happens there.
John Murillo (21:17):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there's something in this
moment it's so vulnerable, so raw,there's nothing there's no dressing
it up. It's just like, look, this iswhat what it is. Yeah. And each of
those things, right. When you thinkabout, again, this self that we
present, how many of us are willingto say that we've been scared? And
(21:40):
phony? Right.
Camille Rankine (21:42):
So you said this was not your favorite Etheridge Knight
poem? Do you have a favorite?
John Murillo (21:47):
Wow. You know? Yeah, I do actually and I don't know why? Like,
that's a hard question. Feeling Fucked up is my favorite Etheridge Knight.
Camille Rankine (21:57):
Mine too! I'm obsessed With that poem. It's so good
John Murillo (22:01):
That poem, I mean, it's so good. And I mean, and to me, it's
like when you talk about love poems.That's it right there.
Camille Rankine (22:10):
Yeah. So before we wrap up, I want to ask you what, what
are you working on right now? Do youhave anything in the works?
John Murillo (22:18):
Oh, man. I've been scribbling badly for the past couple
of years. But I did finish acollection of translations Rafael
Alberti, his book "Concerning theAngels." So I translated that this
past year, and that's coming out in2025. Nicole and I, we wrapped
up the "Dear Yusef" anthology, editingthat that's coming out in 2024. But
(22:45):
as far as the poems I'm kind oftrying to vary my influences,
listening to different music,watching different films, reading
different poets, and just seeing whatI can glean from them. And just
waiting and seeing how it affects thewriting and just giving myself time.
(23:07):
I hope there's not 10 years betweenbooks two and three.
Camille Rankine (23:12):
Yeah, well, I'll give you all the grace. You take your
time you take your time, John, thankyou.
Thanks for joining us today. I'm yourhost Camille Rankine. John's poem "On
(23:33):
Confessionalism" from his book.Kontemporary AmeriKan Poetry was
aired with permission from Four WayBooks. The Etheridge Knight poem Cop
Out Session comes from the book TheEssential Etheridge Knight copyright
1986 Thanks to the University ofPittsburgh Press for permission to
air it. Coming up next week. Ama Code digs into Bluest Nude, and
talks about why Gwendolyn Brooksshows up in some unlikely places in
(23:57):
her poetry. Make sure to like andsubscribe to The Glimpse wherever you
get your podcasts. You can also findepisodes on our website Brinkerhoff
poetry.org. If you have any questionsor comments, please drop us an email
at The Glimpse poetrypodcast@gmail.com. The Glimpse is a
production of the AdrianBrinkerhoff Poetry Foundation. I'm
(24:18):
your host Camille Rankine. Our seniorproducer is Jennifer Wolfe, Kat Yore is
our technical director and mixingengineer, editorial director Amanda
Glassman, is our curator and productioncoordinator. Amy Holmes is the
foundation's executive director and ourco-founders are Cathy and Peter Halstead
thanks for listening
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