August 6, 2024 • 32 mins
Poet Omotara James and host Camille Rankine explore the tension between vulnerability and confidence in poetry. They also delve into the language of pleasure and cruelty as well as the importance of subverting tropes.
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Unknown (00:02):
The Glimpse.
Omotara James (00:05):
It's important to subvert tropes. It's really
interesting. During this time ofsocial media, body positivity, fat
liberation, I feel that timescouldn't really be more polarizing.
The more space that is createdsocially, for people who are fat,
(00:30):
super fat infini-fat, the morevisceral and vitriol there is
around our bodies.
Camille Rankine (00:42):
Welcome to The Glimpse. I'm your host Camille
Rankine poet, Omotara James isskilled at subversion. She's the
author of the poetry collectionSong of My Softening and her work
has been featured in NPR'sMorning Edition, the Paris Review
and the Believer. She has receivedsupport from the African Poetry
Book Fund, the Poetry Foundation,Lambda Literary and Cave Canem
(01:04):
Foundation. Omotara is our guesttoday on The Glimpse. In her debut
poetry collection Song of mySoftening, Omotara James carves
out a hard earned way of knowing away of seeing through the language
we've been given to a clearunderstanding of self, of body, of
(01:25):
being. Her voice and these poemsmoves with a surefooted and sensual
grace through pain and shame towardabundance and a tender-truth
telling. Hers is an eye thatdoesn't shy away, she lifts what
the world has hidden in shadow upto the light, and lets it shimmer.
Welcome Omotara, thanks for beinghere.
Omotara James (01:45):
Thank you, I'm so happy to be here with you.
Camille Rankine (01:48):
Yeah, I'm really happy to be talking to you. I want
to start off just by asking aboutyour poems in general, as I was
reading your book, I was thinkingabout this balance that they strike
between vulnerability andconfidence, and they can be really
intimate at the same time unbowedand unbossed. channel, Shirley
Chisholm. And I just wondered,like, how do you arrive at that
space as a poet or as a person?
Omotara James (02:11):
You know, I feel like I'm always trying to navigate
a kind of balance and generosity inmy life. So whatever is happening,
within my interiority, I tried tobring that to the work. And so I'm
very focused on my process, whichmeans I'm focused on what it feels
(02:37):
like, as I'm perceiving the world,entering into the actual writing
phase, I try to have a ritual, thatbook ends the process when I write,
so that when I walk into the poem,I know that there's going to be a
beginning, a middle and an end,There's a finite amount of time.
(02:58):
And that gives me some kind ofsurety and confidence in my
process, knowing that, okay, I getto decide how it ends. And even
though I don't know how it's goingto end, I still get to decide. So
it makes me feel some sort of powerand control. That's so
Camille Rankine (03:20):
Interesting. I feel like I see that in your work
like that sense of power andcontrol is so present in the poems
and it's interesting, because thatcomes through even when what the
poems are talking about might lackthat control, like the actual
scenario or subject your narrative,there might be talking about a lack
of control, but the poemsthemselves feel in control of their
(03:42):
of their matter if that makessense. You know, I think that's
really interesting how that powercomes through.
Omotara James (03:47):
It does that creates that delicious sort of tension, you
know, between helplessness andcontrol. And that's how I'm always
trying to strike a balance, whatI'm always navigating. And I
remember when I was I think it wasa Breadloaf with Vievee Francis,
(04:07):
one of my favorite American poets,and she told us that we should have
a beginning and end to the writingprocess when we are writing about
something traumatic, problematic,you know, because that grace that
we give ourselves, we'll find itagain, in the work.
Camille Rankine (04:27):
Right? Do you feel like that process, that beginning,
middle and end that process? Isthat consistent for you? Or does it
change depending on the poem andthe work you're working on?
Omotara James (04:36):
Hmm. It changes Yeah, it also changes depending on
the time of day that I'm working,because when I work in the
evenings, that's when I'm my leastguarded self, my most open my most
vulnerable and everything becomes alittle blurry. Right? The
(05:00):
boundary between being awake andbeing asleep, the boundary between
what I remember and what I can'tforget. So I'm trying to, on the
one hand blur the boundary, andchannel some kind of spiritual,
(05:20):
psychic energy. But also myintellect is also thinking along
certain themes that I am certainconcerns that I'm exploring.
Camille Rankine (05:31):
Yeah, that's so interesting. That tension, that
balance is so present in all thesedifferent ways. I think that's a
lot of what makes poetry kind ofelectric, you know? Yeah,
absolutely. All right. Well, let'shear a poem if we can. I'd love to
hear you read the poem that you'regoing to share today.
Omotara James (05:47):
Okay, absolutely. So I'll be reading from my debut
collection, After the Last Calorieof the Apocalypse, or Prayer for
the Clinically Obese. On the lastday, let there be a fat inhalation
(06:12):
of delight between the lap of oursunrise. As the tongue separates the
doubt from the cream, let pleasuresift through the metal strainer of
time. Only hours now, waiting forthe thin people in my life to die.
(06:33):
I read a magazine, have sex, smokea cigarette, and ride the elevator
down to the lobby. We've onlyminutes now. Having nothing against
them personally, unlike art, theydon't improve much upon the
original form. Why was I ever onlyawake to the past, my past selves
(07:01):
asleep to what was plentiful.Exiting the lobby for the corner
store, I pass an absurdity of them.Only seconds now, staunchly
insisting their last instance betailored to fit. Their paper lips
fanning the tulle hem of my dress,red, for the rest of us, mere
(07:27):
moments away from freedom, from thisfine tyranny. If only for a short
while, as they begin to shrivel andwilt. Oh, mercy of the thin breeze.
On this day, lovelies, we will befree when the food runs out.
Camille Rankine (07:53):
Thank you. I'm obsessed with that poem a little
bit.
Omotara James (07:57):
Oh my gosh!
Camille Rankine (07:58):
I love it. I love the way that you read it.
Omotara James (08:00):
Thank you.
Camille Rankine (08:01):
Yeah, it's so gorgeous. And I'm just thinking
about like, the language ofpleasure, especially that like
immediately draws us in breath,sunrise, tongue, cream, sex
cigarette. Like it feels so warmand languid in its opening. Can
You talk about the choices that you made an image and language
(08:22):
to create that feeling.
Omotara James (08:23):
Yeah, you know, I wanted to begin the poem with a
feeling of exultation of almostclimax. And I was very aware that I
wanted to begin probably in ahigher register than I wanted to
(08:44):
end. So I was thinking like, agorgeous sunrise, a deep pastel,
creamy, abstract, a Renoir sunrise,something that you just couldn't
help but be drawn to, and compelledby something delicious. And I
(09:09):
wanted to begin with pleasure. AndI wanted there to be slippage
between the deliciousness that yousee, and the deliciousness that you
taste, right, and then we get intothe body. So that's the tongue
separating the doubt from thecream, which is like, Okay, what
(09:32):
does that mean? We don't knowentirely, but it's very lyric. It's
very evocative. And certainly, asthe poem continues, there's this
element, this thread of cruelty,right? And that's kind of
underpinning the poem and I didn'twant to point too overtly, to the
(09:56):
what was happening outside of thespeaker, like the exposition. I
didn't feel that we needed a lot ofexposition in an apocalypse poem.
Yeah, we get it. There's adissonance there. There's a
dissonance between this excessivepleasure to all of a sudden, we're
(10:18):
smoking a cigarette, and we'rehaving a sex and we're reading a
magazine, which is reallypedestrian. And then as we
continue, the eye of the poem kindof opens out to everything that the
speaker is just kind of walkingthrough. And the cameras just kind
of like following her. And she'sthe only one who's in focus,
(10:40):
walking through this apocalypticstate, where thin people are just
falling to the ground. And shesaying, Yes, that's right. That's
right. And with every, with everysingle person that is obliterated,
she is occupying more space, she'sbecoming more confident, she's
feeling more liberated. And sothere's this relationship between
(11:03):
occupying space and a fat body andbeing liberated, and just being
left alone, you know, not havinganyone critique you too closely.
And so that was how I began thepoem. Yeah.
Camille Rankine (11:21):
I love that. You've mentioned this idea, this
element of cruelty, which one ofthe things that I really find
myself drawn to is the voice of thepoem in moments like that, with
like, having done nothing againstthem personally, unlike art, they
don't improve much upon originalform. I just love that "eye" that just
like, they're fine, I suppose.
Omotara James (11:41):
I mean, it's funny. I thought that was funny. Yes,
Camille Rankine (11:44):
Yes I think it's hilarious.I love that.
Omotara James (11:45):
Thank you I'm a funny poet. People don't get
that there's humor there.
Camille Rankine (11:51):
I mean, I'm over here cracking up.
Omotara James (11:55):
You know, life is so absurd. You have to laugh. And also
to I did write this before thepandemic. So it felt just a little
bit more fun to speak about anapocalypse before COVID-19. Right.
Yeah. But it was this idea. Youknow, it was at a time where there
are all these like zombie movies.Yeah, there's all of this, you
(12:18):
know, all of these fantasticapocalypses that were showing, but
I wanted to reclaim that becausedepending on the life that you
lead, and and how you're living andhow you're in community, you might
be facing the apocalypse every day,right? Yes,
Camille Rankine (12:38):
absolutely. Yeah. Like there apocalypse happening for
people all the time. Yeah, all the
Omotara James (12:44):
time, all the time, and in ways that are more obvious
and, and ways that are just smallerand more innocuous. So I just
wanted to take it from high to lowfrom, you know, grand, to mundane.
Yes,
Camille Rankine (13:01):
I think there is so much grandeur, that even the
mundane elements of the poem, likemagazines, cigarette sex, they're
cast in this light, like thisromantic light, you know, I just
feel like this poem is doing a lotwith reframing of language of image
of body. And I, one of the things Ilove about that kind of casual
cruelty of the voice is how itworks to reposition the newness
(13:24):
into something sort of witheringand sad, you know?
Omotara James (13:28):
It's important to subvert tropes. Yeah, um, and it's
really interesting. During thistime of social media, body
positivity, fat liberation, I feelthat times couldn't really be more
polarizing, the more space that iscreated socially, for people who
(13:54):
are fat, super fat, infini-fat, themore visceral and vitriol there is
around our bodies. So there arethese extremities and the idea of
seeing a speaker, just walk throughthem just cut through them with
(14:17):
such, you know, poise and sense ofself and being so casual about it.
Yeah, that was very attractive tome to see a speaker, a fat speaker,
framing the narrative, and not justsolely being the subject of the
narrative. Felt very important.Yeah,
Camille Rankine (14:37):
yeah, I think that comes across. And another thing
that I really enjoy thinking aboutthat turn of power, and grace is
that last line, the entrance of theword, lovelies, can you talk about
that? Like how you arrived at thatmoment of address?
Omotara James (14:54):
So while I was writing this poem, I was also
thinking a lot about how I couldcondense, like the last few minutes
of someone's entire life, and howto create that heightened sense of
(15:15):
time. And in doing so, I thought,you know, when no one knows how
they're going to go out, right, noone knows when their last day is
going to be. And so I just thoughtthe poem began in beauty and is
ending in death. And also throughthat death. There is another beauty
(15:40):
being born. So we're beginning inbeauty, and we're ending in beauty,
but not in the same place. Right?Yeah. So it just felt really
important to make sure that thereare some love for those who are
left last at the end of the poem.
Camille Rankine (16:02):
And there's also something really hopeful, I think,
when we think about, like, how manyapocalypses we live through and a
lot of people live through oftaking that moment and spinning it
around a little bit and thinkingabout what can we build? What can
we gain? What how can we be freer?Yeah, I think there's something
hopeful about it, even though it'sabout the end of the world.
Omotara James (16:23):
Yeah. And that's why I wrote it in couplets.
Camille Rankine (16:26):
I was gonna ask about that. I love a couplet talk
to me about that.
Omotara James (16:30):
couplet. You know, it feels like when you're writing a
couplet, you're beginning somewhereand you're ending somewhere. It's
like two hands holding. Yeah.
Camille Rankine (16:40):
I always say that. It's like hand in hand skipping
down the street. You know, I wasjust about to say that,
Omotara James (16:44):
Oh, my goodness, Camille, you get me.
Here. We're here together in this.Yes. Oh, my goodness. Never felt so
seen. Yes. The Sisterhood. So yes.So there's this feeling of when I
see couplets together, it's like,oh, okay, we're merely going along
(17:04):
this poem. Right. So there's thatlightness and that levity in terms
of how it looks so kind ofunassuming. But also, what this
poem is saying is, death is coming,death is coming, death is coming,
death is coming. And we're going tobe okay, for like, a few minutes.
After all the thin people perish.It's gonna be good for a few minutes.
(17:25):
And that's gonna be good. And also,you know, when you go back to the
title of the poem, The first partis after The Last Calorie of the
Apocalypse, right. But the secondpart is Prayer for the Clinically
Obese, and that word obese andobesity, especially in the within
the culture and context of fatliberation. That is, you know, very
(17:48):
much a slur because it is a wordthat is highly loaded, that's
always used really pejoratively.There's there's no place where it's
not used pejoratively. It's builtinto the word, especially when it's
used clinically and those clinicalspaces, those medical spaces,
(18:11):
people who are fat are mostvulnerable. And also the least
seen. We're not taken seriously. Andthat's why we don't enter those
spaces. As much as thinner people,people living in thinner bodies
would enter those spaces. Becausethere's more freedom there.
Camille Rankine (18:32):
I was thinking about that inclusion of the
Prayer for the Clinically Obese in the title. Just the coldness of that
word, the accusation of it, and howthe whole poem seems to sort of
just laugh in its face almost sortof just it pushes right back
against that. And seems to me, likejust take the control away from
(18:53):
that designation and control thatstory and that narrative. It just
creates such an interesting tensionto me, that really informs the way
that I understand and feel theimpact of the poem itself.
Omotara James (19:07):
I mean, certainly, this is a fuck you poem. Oh, yeah.
I mean, there's there's no way aroundthat. It's a poem that says my
personhood is going to be asserted,whether you like it or not, and I
actually prefer that you don't likethat would bring me pleasure.
Camille Rankine (19:25):
You don't need to like, yeah, yeah,
right. I think that's what is sodelicious about the poem that, you
know, that sense of facing thattitle and pushing back and laughing
at that title and saying, I'm I'mactually not, I'm not going about
to take that on myself. Good luck.Good luck to you. No, I yeah, I
think that's, that's glorious.
Omotara James (19:46):
Thank you.
Camille Rankine (19:47):
Thank you. And I think this is a good time to take a
little break. Okay.
Cathy & Peter Halstead (20:04):
We hope you're enjoying The Glimpse. It's
just one small part of the AdrianBrinkerhoff Poetry Foundation.
Unknown (20:11):
We're the founders Peter and Cathy Halstead. Our
Cathy & Peter Halstead (20:15):
goal is to make poetry more accessible to
everyone. And we do that in avariety of ways. Through
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Brinkerhoff poetry.org.
Unknown (20:29):
We hope these works will lure you into a parallel universe.
The way a Möbius strip brings youinto another dimension without
leaving the page you're on. Thanksfor listening. Okay,
Camille Rankine (20:46):
welcome back. So we are going to hear a poem that
has inspired you.
Omotara James (20:52):
The name of the poem is Tiara by Mark Doty from his
collection, Bethlehem in BroadDaylight. Tiara. Peter died in a
paper tiara cut from a book ofprincess paper dolls. He loved
(21:15):
royalty, sashes and jewels. I don'tknow. He said, when he woke in
the hospice. I was watching theBetty Davis Film Festival on
channel 57 and then— At the wake,the tension broke when someone
guessed the casket closed becausehe was in there and a big wig and
(21:41):
heels, and someone said, you knowhe's always late. He probably isn't
here yet. He's still fixing hismakeup. And someone said he asked
for it. asked for it. When all hedid was go down into the salt tide
(22:02):
of wanting as much as he wanted,giving himself over so drunk or
stoned. It almost didn't matterwho, though they were beautiful,
stampeding into him in the simplelavishing music of their hurry. I
(22:23):
think heaven is perfect stasispoised over the realms of desire.
Where dreaming and waking menlie on the grass, while wet horses
roam among them huge fragments ofthe music we die into in the body's
(22:44):
paradise. Sometimes we wake notknowing how we came to lie here,
or who has crowned us with thesetemporary precious stones. And
given the world's perfectly turnedshoulders, the deep hollows blued
(23:06):
by longing, given the irreplaceablesilk of horses, rippling in
orchards, fruit thundering andchiming down, given the ordinary
marvels of form and gravity. Whatcould he do? What could any of us
(23:27):
ever do? But ask for it?
Camille Rankine (23:35):
Talk about a fuck You poem. You know?
I love this. I think I just want towrap myself in this poem. But
before I do that, what what aboutthis poem draws you to it.
Omotara James (23:47):
You know, this was one of the first poems I read in a
college class of contemporarypoets. And at the time, I was
really struggling to find my ownvoice. I knew I had things I wanted
(24:08):
to say, things that were simmeringthings that I couldn't articulate,
but I didn't know how to say them.I didn't know anything about
registers in poetry, tone shifts,any of that. And when I came
across this poem, for the firsttime, I just completely lost it. I
(24:33):
just, it was a release. It feltlike a godsend. It felt like this
poem was a complete whole and holyrebuke, of being too much. And what
I loved about this poem was itstenderness. Its tenderness, and the
(24:55):
fact that the speaker had so muchlove For the subject. Yes, yes, I
also felt like I knew Peter, alittle bit, even though that's
ridiculous. But, you know, in someways, we all have a Peter or are the
Peter, you know, in our ownlives. Flamboyant, fun,
(25:19):
carefree, deeply connected topleasure, to appetite, to beauty. And
so those through lines ofconnecting appetite, pleasure
experience to beauty to the sublimethat I felt was a restoration, it
(25:44):
gave me back something that I feltI was losing on a daily basis.
Camille Rankine (25:49):
I love that all he did was go down and have a salt
tight of wanting as much as hewanted." And now that that we just
tumbled from that. I feel likewe're falling and we fall into
heaven in that moment. And yes,
Omotara James (26:01):
you do tumble into heaven. And what is taking us there
is Peter's love of life. Yeah, youknow. So in many ways, the subject
is being reanimated through ourconnection to that beautiful,
ravishing music to these lusciousimages to these gorgeous fragments.
(26:23):
Yes. And Doty is so good at alsomaking us complicit in Peter's
pleasure. Absolutely. Because we'refeeling the pleasure, oh, we don't
want it to stop. We don't wantthese tercets to end and by the time
I got to the end, I was upset thatit was ending, I wanted to reread
it again. And again. And again. Andso it's creating that desire
(26:49):
for for excess, and pleasure. Andthe craft is so well and
intentional.
Camille Rankine (26:56):
He takes us so deep into it, that you completely
are in a position of embodying thatlike experience that Peter was
having where you're like, I wantmore, I don't want this to end I want
to be in this space. And you feellike you are, like you said
complicit in that in that desire,
Omotara James (27:14):
and also complicit in the love that the speaker has
for the subject, the love that thespeaker has for Peter, that you
couldn't but adore him. And whereasthis poem kind of opens up, you
know, into heaven, I wanted like myapocalypse poem, to kind of begin
(27:36):
in a heaven, and then zoom out andcome back down to earth.
Camille Rankine (27:41):
And I think each poem is saying, you know, hold on,
and also, it's showing us like,you're saying, like, we make a
heaven of hell, we make a hell ofheaven. It's showing us in a way
that this doesn't have to be theway that we see it, there is
something else, there's another wayof understanding and entering into
the reality of this person to thinkdifferently, and see differently
(28:03):
and understand our role, ourcontrol our you know, what power we
have, and how we understand eachother, right do to each other.
Omotara James (28:11):
I mean, because ultimately, you know, as far as I'm
concerned, that's the role of thepoem. It's not just to, you know,
virtue signal or whatever, but it'sto really try to interrogate what
it is that the reader believes, andwhat their position and
(28:33):
positionality is, to the content,right? And what I try to do in all
of my poems, and what I love aboutthis Doty poem is that even though
the speakers of both poems arespeaking back to the spectacle of
(28:54):
an the specter of hatred, they'realso both not performing. No, my
poem is not performing fatnessTiara is not performing gayness,
okay. What it is doing is it'sdefying, okay, these are defiant
poems. So they're defying what yourrelationship to gayness is, you
(29:16):
know, not saying, oh, you know,this is our gayness, please accept
it. You know, please accept ourqueerness No, it's saying, Listen,
this is how we live. This is how welove. And wouldn't you be so lucky?
Camille Rankine (29:31):
Yeah, absolutely. So, thank you for talking to me
about this poem. But I also want toask you, yeah, what are you up to?
What are you working on right now?I mean, I know you just gave us
this book. So no rush.
Omotara James (29:45):
Well, yeah, I gave the book and the book is still
giving. It's still giving.It's still giving because I
am working on the audio book. I'mvery excited to be recording.
That's great.
Camille Rankine (29:58):
That's good. I'm happy for people. get to listen to
you read this book, because it'sgreat to listen to hear it read
your poems.
Omotara James (30:04):
I mean, not to toot my own horn, but when you hear a
poem in the voice of the speaker,that's another kind of experience
and, and translation. And so theintimacy is just heightened. So
that's what I love about theaudiobook. And of course, I'm
always writing poems, and I'mworking on a children's book.
Camille Rankine (30:27):
Ah, oh my gosh, for the children. Everybody's
lucky. I'm excited about that.
Omotara James (30:33):
Yeah, very cool. Yeah, I'm really excited. What age
group like 10 Eight and under, youknow? Yeah, it's
Camille Rankine (30:43):
exciting. It is
Omotara James (30:44):
exciting.
Camille Rankine (30:45):
It's so great to talk to you about these poems.
Thank you so much. It's been a joy.
Omotara James (30:49):
Thank you, Camille.
Camille Rankine (30:58):
Thanks for joining us today. I'm your host Camille
Rankine. Omatara's poem After theLast Calorie of the Apocalypse
Prayer for the Clinically Obeseappears in her debut poetry
collection Song of my Softening,published in 2024, and aired with
permission from Alice James books.Mark Doty's poem Tiara is from the
(31:19):
book Paragon Park, Turtle Swan,Bethlehem in Broad Daylight and
Early Poems, copyright 2012. It wasused with permission from Yhe
Permissions Company LLC on behalfof David R. Godine Publisher Inc.
And that's it for this season ofThe Glimpse. It's been a pleasure
to be in conversation with thesewriters and their words, and to
(31:40):
share the conversation with you. Ihope you'll keep going keep reading
poems and join us for the nextseason of The Glimpse which will
focus on Irish poets. Make sure tolike and subscribe to The Glimpse
wherever you get your podcasts. Youcan also find episodes on our
website Brinkerhoff poetry.org. Ifyou have any questions or comments,
(32:00):
please drop us an email at TheGlimpse poetry podcast@gmail.com.
The Glimpse is a production of theAdrian Brinkerhoff Poetry
Foundation. I'm your host CamilleRankine. Our senior producer is
Jennifer Wolfe Kat Yore is ourtechnical director and mixing
engineer. Editorial Director AmandaGlassman is our curator and
production coordinator. Amy Holmesis the foundation's Executive
(32:23):
Director and our co founders areCathy and Peter Halstead. Thanks
for listening
The Glimpse.
Omotara James (00:05):
It's important to subvert tropes. It's really
interesting. During this time ofsocial media, body positivity, fat
liberation, I feel that timescouldn't really be more polarizing.
The more space that is createdsocially, for people who are fat,
(00:30):
super fat infini-fat, the morevisceral and vitriol there is
around our bodies.
Camille Rankine (00:42):
Welcome to The Glimpse. I'm your host Camille
Rankine poet, Omotara James isskilled at subversion. She's the
author of the poetry collectionSong of My Softening and her work
has been featured in NPR'sMorning Edition, the Paris Review
and the Believer. She has receivedsupport from the African Poetry
Book Fund, the Poetry Foundation,Lambda Literary and Cave Canem
(01:04):
Foundation. Omotara is our guesttoday on The Glimpse. In her debut
poetry collection Song of mySoftening, Omotara James carves
out a hard earned way of knowing away of seeing through the language
we've been given to a clearunderstanding of self, of body, of
(01:25):
being. Her voice and these poemsmoves with a surefooted and sensual
grace through pain and shame towardabundance and a tender-truth
telling. Hers is an eye thatdoesn't shy away, she lifts what
the world has hidden in shadow upto the light, and lets it shimmer.
Welcome Omotara, thanks for beinghere.
Omotara James (01:45):
Thank you, I'm so happy to be here with you.
Camille Rankine (01:48):
Yeah, I'm really happy to be talking to you. I want
to start off just by asking aboutyour poems in general, as I was
reading your book, I was thinkingabout this balance that they strike
between vulnerability andconfidence, and they can be really
intimate at the same time unbowedand unbossed. channel, Shirley
Chisholm. And I just wondered,like, how do you arrive at that
space as a poet or as a person?
Omotara James (02:11):
You know, I feel like I'm always trying to navigate
a kind of balance and generosity inmy life. So whatever is happening,
within my interiority, I tried tobring that to the work. And so I'm
very focused on my process, whichmeans I'm focused on what it feels
(02:37):
like, as I'm perceiving the world,entering into the actual writing
phase, I try to have a ritual, thatbook ends the process when I write,
so that when I walk into the poem,I know that there's going to be a
beginning, a middle and an end,There's a finite amount of time.
(02:58):
And that gives me some kind ofsurety and confidence in my
process, knowing that, okay, I getto decide how it ends. And even
though I don't know how it's goingto end, I still get to decide. So
it makes me feel some sort of powerand control. That's so
Camille Rankine (03:20):
Interesting. I feel like I see that in your work
like that sense of power andcontrol is so present in the poems
and it's interesting, because thatcomes through even when what the
poems are talking about might lackthat control, like the actual
scenario or subject your narrative,there might be talking about a lack
of control, but the poemsthemselves feel in control of their
(03:42):
of their matter if that makessense. You know, I think that's
really interesting how that powercomes through.
Omotara James (03:47):
It does that creates that delicious sort of tension, you
know, between helplessness andcontrol. And that's how I'm always
trying to strike a balance, whatI'm always navigating. And I
remember when I was I think it wasa Breadloaf with Vievee Francis,
(04:07):
one of my favorite American poets,and she told us that we should have
a beginning and end to the writingprocess when we are writing about
something traumatic, problematic,you know, because that grace that
we give ourselves, we'll find itagain, in the work.
Camille Rankine (04:27):
Right? Do you feel like that process, that beginning,
middle and end that process? Isthat consistent for you? Or does it
change depending on the poem andthe work you're working on?
Omotara James (04:36):
Hmm. It changes Yeah, it also changes depending on
the time of day that I'm working,because when I work in the
evenings, that's when I'm my leastguarded self, my most open my most
vulnerable and everything becomes alittle blurry. Right? The
(05:00):
boundary between being awake andbeing asleep, the boundary between
what I remember and what I can'tforget. So I'm trying to, on the
one hand blur the boundary, andchannel some kind of spiritual,
(05:20):
psychic energy. But also myintellect is also thinking along
certain themes that I am certainconcerns that I'm exploring.
Camille Rankine (05:31):
Yeah, that's so interesting. That tension, that
balance is so present in all thesedifferent ways. I think that's a
lot of what makes poetry kind ofelectric, you know? Yeah,
absolutely. All right. Well, let'shear a poem if we can. I'd love to
hear you read the poem that you'regoing to share today.
Omotara James (05:47):
Okay, absolutely. So I'll be reading from my debut
collection, After the Last Calorieof the Apocalypse, or Prayer for
the Clinically Obese. On the lastday, let there be a fat inhalation
(06:12):
of delight between the lap of oursunrise. As the tongue separates the
doubt from the cream, let pleasuresift through the metal strainer of
time. Only hours now, waiting forthe thin people in my life to die.
(06:33):
I read a magazine, have sex, smokea cigarette, and ride the elevator
down to the lobby. We've onlyminutes now. Having nothing against
them personally, unlike art, theydon't improve much upon the
original form. Why was I ever onlyawake to the past, my past selves
(07:01):
asleep to what was plentiful.Exiting the lobby for the corner
store, I pass an absurdity of them.Only seconds now, staunchly
insisting their last instance betailored to fit. Their paper lips
fanning the tulle hem of my dress,red, for the rest of us, mere
(07:27):
moments away from freedom, from thisfine tyranny. If only for a short
while, as they begin to shrivel andwilt. Oh, mercy of the thin breeze.
On this day, lovelies, we will befree when the food runs out.
Camille Rankine (07:53):
Thank you. I'm obsessed with that poem a little
bit.
Omotara James (07:57):
Oh my gosh!
Camille Rankine (07:58):
I love it. I love the way that you read it.
Omotara James (08:00):
Thank you.
Camille Rankine (08:01):
Yeah, it's so gorgeous. And I'm just thinking
about like, the language ofpleasure, especially that like
immediately draws us in breath,sunrise, tongue, cream, sex
cigarette. Like it feels so warmand languid in its opening. Can
You talk about the choices that you made an image and language
(08:22):
to create that feeling.
Omotara James (08:23):
Yeah, you know, I wanted to begin the poem with a
feeling of exultation of almostclimax. And I was very aware that I
wanted to begin probably in ahigher register than I wanted to
(08:44):
end. So I was thinking like, agorgeous sunrise, a deep pastel,
creamy, abstract, a Renoir sunrise,something that you just couldn't
help but be drawn to, and compelledby something delicious. And I
(09:09):
wanted to begin with pleasure. AndI wanted there to be slippage
between the deliciousness that yousee, and the deliciousness that you
taste, right, and then we get intothe body. So that's the tongue
separating the doubt from thecream, which is like, Okay, what
(09:32):
does that mean? We don't knowentirely, but it's very lyric. It's
very evocative. And certainly, asthe poem continues, there's this
element, this thread of cruelty,right? And that's kind of
underpinning the poem and I didn'twant to point too overtly, to the
(09:56):
what was happening outside of thespeaker, like the exposition. I
didn't feel that we needed a lot ofexposition in an apocalypse poem.
Yeah, we get it. There's adissonance there. There's a
dissonance between this excessivepleasure to all of a sudden, we're
(10:18):
smoking a cigarette, and we'rehaving a sex and we're reading a
magazine, which is reallypedestrian. And then as we
continue, the eye of the poem kindof opens out to everything that the
speaker is just kind of walkingthrough. And the cameras just kind
of like following her. And she'sthe only one who's in focus,
(10:40):
walking through this apocalypticstate, where thin people are just
falling to the ground. And shesaying, Yes, that's right. That's
right. And with every, with everysingle person that is obliterated,
she is occupying more space, she'sbecoming more confident, she's
feeling more liberated. And sothere's this relationship between
(11:03):
occupying space and a fat body andbeing liberated, and just being
left alone, you know, not havinganyone critique you too closely.
And so that was how I began thepoem. Yeah.
Camille Rankine (11:21):
I love that. You've mentioned this idea, this
element of cruelty, which one ofthe things that I really find
myself drawn to is the voice of thepoem in moments like that, with
like, having done nothing againstthem personally, unlike art, they
don't improve much upon originalform. I just love that "eye" that just
like, they're fine, I suppose.
Omotara James (11:41):
I mean, it's funny. I thought that was funny. Yes,
Camille Rankine (11:44):
Yes I think it's hilarious.I love that.
Omotara James (11:45):
Thank you I'm a funny poet. People don't get
that there's humor there.
Camille Rankine (11:51):
I mean, I'm over here cracking up.
Omotara James (11:55):
You know, life is so absurd. You have to laugh. And also
to I did write this before thepandemic. So it felt just a little
bit more fun to speak about anapocalypse before COVID-19. Right.
Yeah. But it was this idea. Youknow, it was at a time where there
are all these like zombie movies.Yeah, there's all of this, you
(12:18):
know, all of these fantasticapocalypses that were showing, but
I wanted to reclaim that becausedepending on the life that you
lead, and and how you're living andhow you're in community, you might
be facing the apocalypse every day,right? Yes,
Camille Rankine (12:38):
absolutely. Yeah. Like there apocalypse happening for
people all the time. Yeah, all the
Omotara James (12:44):
time, all the time, and in ways that are more obvious
and, and ways that are just smallerand more innocuous. So I just
wanted to take it from high to lowfrom, you know, grand, to mundane.
Yes,
Camille Rankine (13:01):
I think there is so much grandeur, that even the
mundane elements of the poem, likemagazines, cigarette sex, they're
cast in this light, like thisromantic light, you know, I just
feel like this poem is doing a lotwith reframing of language of image
of body. And I, one of the things Ilove about that kind of casual
cruelty of the voice is how itworks to reposition the newness
(13:24):
into something sort of witheringand sad, you know?
Omotara James (13:28):
It's important to subvert tropes. Yeah, um, and it's
really interesting. During thistime of social media, body
positivity, fat liberation, I feelthat times couldn't really be more
polarizing, the more space that iscreated socially, for people who
(13:54):
are fat, super fat, infini-fat, themore visceral and vitriol there is
around our bodies. So there arethese extremities and the idea of
seeing a speaker, just walk throughthem just cut through them with
(14:17):
such, you know, poise and sense ofself and being so casual about it.
Yeah, that was very attractive tome to see a speaker, a fat speaker,
framing the narrative, and not justsolely being the subject of the
narrative. Felt very important.Yeah,
Camille Rankine (14:37):
yeah, I think that comes across. And another thing
that I really enjoy thinking aboutthat turn of power, and grace is
that last line, the entrance of theword, lovelies, can you talk about
that? Like how you arrived at thatmoment of address?
Omotara James (14:54):
So while I was writing this poem, I was also
thinking a lot about how I couldcondense, like the last few minutes
of someone's entire life, and howto create that heightened sense of
(15:15):
time. And in doing so, I thought,you know, when no one knows how
they're going to go out, right, noone knows when their last day is
going to be. And so I just thoughtthe poem began in beauty and is
ending in death. And also throughthat death. There is another beauty
(15:40):
being born. So we're beginning inbeauty, and we're ending in beauty,
but not in the same place. Right?Yeah. So it just felt really
important to make sure that thereare some love for those who are
left last at the end of the poem.
Camille Rankine (16:02):
And there's also something really hopeful, I think,
when we think about, like, how manyapocalypses we live through and a
lot of people live through oftaking that moment and spinning it
around a little bit and thinkingabout what can we build? What can
we gain? What how can we be freer?Yeah, I think there's something
hopeful about it, even though it'sabout the end of the world.
Omotara James (16:23):
Yeah. And that's why I wrote it in couplets.
Camille Rankine (16:26):
I was gonna ask about that. I love a couplet talk
to me about that.
Omotara James (16:30):
couplet. You know, it feels like when you're writing a
couplet, you're beginning somewhereand you're ending somewhere. It's
like two hands holding. Yeah.
Camille Rankine (16:40):
I always say that. It's like hand in hand skipping
down the street. You know, I wasjust about to say that,
Omotara James (16:44):
Oh, my goodness, Camille, you get me.
Here. We're here together in this.Yes. Oh, my goodness. Never felt so
seen. Yes. The Sisterhood. So yes.So there's this feeling of when I
see couplets together, it's like,oh, okay, we're merely going along
(17:04):
this poem. Right. So there's thatlightness and that levity in terms
of how it looks so kind ofunassuming. But also, what this
poem is saying is, death is coming,death is coming, death is coming,
death is coming. And we're going tobe okay, for like, a few minutes.
After all the thin people perish.It's gonna be good for a few minutes.
(17:25):
And that's gonna be good. And also,you know, when you go back to the
title of the poem, The first partis after The Last Calorie of the
Apocalypse, right. But the secondpart is Prayer for the Clinically
Obese, and that word obese andobesity, especially in the within
the culture and context of fatliberation. That is, you know, very
(17:48):
much a slur because it is a wordthat is highly loaded, that's
always used really pejoratively.There's there's no place where it's
not used pejoratively. It's builtinto the word, especially when it's
used clinically and those clinicalspaces, those medical spaces,
(18:11):
people who are fat are mostvulnerable. And also the least
seen. We're not taken seriously. Andthat's why we don't enter those
spaces. As much as thinner people,people living in thinner bodies
would enter those spaces. Becausethere's more freedom there.
Camille Rankine (18:32):
I was thinking about that inclusion of the
Prayer for the Clinically Obese in the title. Just the coldness of that
word, the accusation of it, and howthe whole poem seems to sort of
just laugh in its face almost sortof just it pushes right back
against that. And seems to me, likejust take the control away from
(18:53):
that designation and control thatstory and that narrative. It just
creates such an interesting tensionto me, that really informs the way
that I understand and feel theimpact of the poem itself.
Omotara James (19:07):
I mean, certainly, this is a fuck you poem. Oh, yeah.
I mean, there's there's no way aroundthat. It's a poem that says my
personhood is going to be asserted,whether you like it or not, and I
actually prefer that you don't likethat would bring me pleasure.
Camille Rankine (19:25):
You don't need to like, yeah, yeah,
right. I think that's what is sodelicious about the poem that, you
know, that sense of facing thattitle and pushing back and laughing
at that title and saying, I'm I'mactually not, I'm not going about
to take that on myself. Good luck.Good luck to you. No, I yeah, I
think that's, that's glorious.
Omotara James (19:46):
Thank you.
Camille Rankine (19:47):
Thank you. And I think this is a good time to take a
little break. Okay.
Cathy & Peter Halstead (20:04):
We hope you're enjoying The Glimpse. It's
just one small part of the AdrianBrinkerhoff Poetry Foundation.
Unknown (20:11):
We're the founders Peter and Cathy Halstead. Our
Cathy & Peter Halstead (20:15):
goal is to make poetry more accessible to
everyone. And we do that in avariety of ways. Through
partnerships, our film series, thispodcast, and our website
Brinkerhoff poetry.org.
Unknown (20:29):
We hope these works will lure you into a parallel universe.
The way a Möbius strip brings youinto another dimension without
leaving the page you're on. Thanksfor listening. Okay,
Camille Rankine (20:46):
welcome back. So we are going to hear a poem that
has inspired you.
Omotara James (20:52):
The name of the poem is Tiara by Mark Doty from his
collection, Bethlehem in BroadDaylight. Tiara. Peter died in a
paper tiara cut from a book ofprincess paper dolls. He loved
(21:15):
royalty, sashes and jewels. I don'tknow. He said, when he woke in
the hospice. I was watching theBetty Davis Film Festival on
channel 57 and then— At the wake,the tension broke when someone
guessed the casket closed becausehe was in there and a big wig and
(21:41):
heels, and someone said, you knowhe's always late. He probably isn't
here yet. He's still fixing hismakeup. And someone said he asked
for it. asked for it. When all hedid was go down into the salt tide
(22:02):
of wanting as much as he wanted,giving himself over so drunk or
stoned. It almost didn't matterwho, though they were beautiful,
stampeding into him in the simplelavishing music of their hurry. I
(22:23):
think heaven is perfect stasispoised over the realms of desire.
Where dreaming and waking menlie on the grass, while wet horses
roam among them huge fragments ofthe music we die into in the body's
(22:44):
paradise. Sometimes we wake notknowing how we came to lie here,
or who has crowned us with thesetemporary precious stones. And
given the world's perfectly turnedshoulders, the deep hollows blued
(23:06):
by longing, given the irreplaceablesilk of horses, rippling in
orchards, fruit thundering andchiming down, given the ordinary
marvels of form and gravity. Whatcould he do? What could any of us
(23:27):
ever do? But ask for it?
Camille Rankine (23:35):
Talk about a fuck You poem. You know?
I love this. I think I just want towrap myself in this poem. But
before I do that, what what aboutthis poem draws you to it.
Omotara James (23:47):
You know, this was one of the first poems I read in a
college class of contemporarypoets. And at the time, I was
really struggling to find my ownvoice. I knew I had things I wanted
(24:08):
to say, things that were simmeringthings that I couldn't articulate,
but I didn't know how to say them.I didn't know anything about
registers in poetry, tone shifts,any of that. And when I came
across this poem, for the firsttime, I just completely lost it. I
(24:33):
just, it was a release. It feltlike a godsend. It felt like this
poem was a complete whole and holyrebuke, of being too much. And what
I loved about this poem was itstenderness. Its tenderness, and the
(24:55):
fact that the speaker had so muchlove For the subject. Yes, yes, I
also felt like I knew Peter, alittle bit, even though that's
ridiculous. But, you know, in someways, we all have a Peter or are the
Peter, you know, in our ownlives. Flamboyant, fun,
(25:19):
carefree, deeply connected topleasure, to appetite, to beauty. And
so those through lines ofconnecting appetite, pleasure
experience to beauty to the sublimethat I felt was a restoration, it
(25:44):
gave me back something that I feltI was losing on a daily basis.
Camille Rankine (25:49):
I love that all he did was go down and have a salt
tight of wanting as much as hewanted." And now that that we just
tumbled from that. I feel likewe're falling and we fall into
heaven in that moment. And yes,
Omotara James (26:01):
you do tumble into heaven. And what is taking us there
is Peter's love of life. Yeah, youknow. So in many ways, the subject
is being reanimated through ourconnection to that beautiful,
ravishing music to these lusciousimages to these gorgeous fragments.
(26:23):
Yes. And Doty is so good at alsomaking us complicit in Peter's
pleasure. Absolutely. Because we'refeeling the pleasure, oh, we don't
want it to stop. We don't wantthese tercets to end and by the time
I got to the end, I was upset thatit was ending, I wanted to reread
it again. And again. And again. Andso it's creating that desire
(26:49):
for for excess, and pleasure. Andthe craft is so well and
intentional.
Camille Rankine (26:56):
He takes us so deep into it, that you completely
are in a position of embodying thatlike experience that Peter was
having where you're like, I wantmore, I don't want this to end I want
to be in this space. And you feellike you are, like you said
complicit in that in that desire,
Omotara James (27:14):
and also complicit in the love that the speaker has
for the subject, the love that thespeaker has for Peter, that you
couldn't but adore him. And whereasthis poem kind of opens up, you
know, into heaven, I wanted like myapocalypse poem, to kind of begin
(27:36):
in a heaven, and then zoom out andcome back down to earth.
Camille Rankine (27:41):
And I think each poem is saying, you know, hold on,
and also, it's showing us like,you're saying, like, we make a
heaven of hell, we make a hell ofheaven. It's showing us in a way
that this doesn't have to be theway that we see it, there is
something else, there's another wayof understanding and entering into
the reality of this person to thinkdifferently, and see differently
(28:03):
and understand our role, ourcontrol our you know, what power we
have, and how we understand eachother, right do to each other.
Omotara James (28:11):
I mean, because ultimately, you know, as far as I'm
concerned, that's the role of thepoem. It's not just to, you know,
virtue signal or whatever, but it'sto really try to interrogate what
it is that the reader believes, andwhat their position and
(28:33):
positionality is, to the content,right? And what I try to do in all
of my poems, and what I love aboutthis Doty poem is that even though
the speakers of both poems arespeaking back to the spectacle of
(28:54):
an the specter of hatred, they'realso both not performing. No, my
poem is not performing fatnessTiara is not performing gayness,
okay. What it is doing is it'sdefying, okay, these are defiant
poems. So they're defying what yourrelationship to gayness is, you
(29:16):
know, not saying, oh, you know,this is our gayness, please accept
it. You know, please accept ourqueerness No, it's saying, Listen,
this is how we live. This is how welove. And wouldn't you be so lucky?
Camille Rankine (29:31):
Yeah, absolutely. So, thank you for talking to me
about this poem. But I also want toask you, yeah, what are you up to?
What are you working on right now?I mean, I know you just gave us
this book. So no rush.
Omotara James (29:45):
Well, yeah, I gave the book and the book is still
giving. It's still giving.It's still giving because I
am working on the audio book. I'mvery excited to be recording.
That's great.
Camille Rankine (29:58):
That's good. I'm happy for people. get to listen to
you read this book, because it'sgreat to listen to hear it read
your poems.
Omotara James (30:04):
I mean, not to toot my own horn, but when you hear a
poem in the voice of the speaker,that's another kind of experience
and, and translation. And so theintimacy is just heightened. So
that's what I love about theaudiobook. And of course, I'm
always writing poems, and I'mworking on a children's book.
Camille Rankine (30:27):
Ah, oh my gosh, for the children. Everybody's
lucky. I'm excited about that.
Omotara James (30:33):
Yeah, very cool. Yeah, I'm really excited. What age
group like 10 Eight and under, youknow? Yeah, it's
Camille Rankine (30:43):
exciting. It is
Omotara James (30:44):
exciting.
Camille Rankine (30:45):
It's so great to talk to you about these poems.
Thank you so much. It's been a joy.
Omotara James (30:49):
Thank you, Camille.
Camille Rankine (30:58):
Thanks for joining us today. I'm your host Camille
Rankine. Omatara's poem After theLast Calorie of the Apocalypse
Prayer for the Clinically Obeseappears in her debut poetry
collection Song of my Softening,published in 2024, and aired with
permission from Alice James books.Mark Doty's poem Tiara is from the
(31:19):
book Paragon Park, Turtle Swan,Bethlehem in Broad Daylight and
Early Poems, copyright 2012. It wasused with permission from Yhe
Permissions Company LLC on behalfof David R. Godine Publisher Inc.
And that's it for this season ofThe Glimpse. It's been a pleasure
to be in conversation with thesewriters and their words, and to
(31:40):
share the conversation with you. Ihope you'll keep going keep reading
poems and join us for the nextseason of The Glimpse which will
focus on Irish poets. Make sure tolike and subscribe to The Glimpse
wherever you get your podcasts. Youcan also find episodes on our
website Brinkerhoff poetry.org. Ifyou have any questions or comments,
(32:00):
please drop us an email at TheGlimpse poetry podcast@gmail.com.
The Glimpse is a production of theAdrian Brinkerhoff Poetry
Foundation. I'm your host CamilleRankine. Our senior producer is
Jennifer Wolfe Kat Yore is ourtechnical director and mixing
engineer. Editorial Director AmandaGlassman is our curator and
production coordinator. Amy Holmesis the foundation's Executive
(32:23):
Director and our co founders areCathy and Peter Halstead. Thanks
for listening
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