July 25, 2025 • 29 mins
Cathy Hackl, renowned futurist and CE “Godmother of the Metaverse,” is at the forefront of exploring how AI and immersive technologies are transforming human relationships, intimacy, and connection. In this episode, Cathy shares her personal experiments dating AI “boyfriends,” her vision for the future of dating, and why she believes technology can enhance—not diminish—our capacity for meaningful relationships.
Key Takeaways:
- Intimacy Economy: Cathy sees a shift from the “attention economy” to an “intimacy economy,” where AI and personalized tech foster deeper, more meaningful digital connections.
- Tech Intimacy Scale: She’s developing a framework to help people measure and improve how technology supports their relationships, moving beyond swipes and superficial engagement to true presence and connection.
- Human + AI Relationships: Cathy’s week-long experiment dating four AI “boyfriends” (ChatGPT, Gemini, Meta AI, and Claude) offered insights into what AI can and can’t provide, and why human messiness remains irreplaceable.
- Future of Dating: She envisions dating platforms that use 3D presence, spatial computing, and even gaming to facilitate authentic connections, moving beyond 2D apps to immersive, shared experiences.
- Tech for Good: Cathy’s mission is to help people use technology intentionally to become better partners, parents, and coworkers—advocating for tools that enhance empathy, communication, and real-world connection.
Cathy’s journey is both personal and professional. As a single mom, tech leader, and public speaker, she’s determined to demystify the future of relationships and empower others to navigate love, family, and work in a world where AI and immersive tech are ever-present.
About Cathy Hackl
Cathy Hackl is a globally recognized tech & gaming exec, futurist, & speaker focused on spatial computing, virtual worlds, augmented reality, AI, & gaming platforms strategy.
She’s the co-CEO of Future Dynamics, a spatial computing and AI solutions company & a top tech voice on LinkedIn. She’s the creator of the Tech Intimacy Scale and is currently conducting research and experiments on AI and the future of love and relationships.Hackl has worked at Amazon Web Services (AWS), Magic Leap, and HTC VIVE and has worked with companies like Nike, Ralph Lauren, Walmart, Louis Vuitton, & Clinique on their emerging tech & gaming journeys.
As a sought-after keynote speaker, she’s spoken at Harvard Business School, MIT, SXSW, Comic-Con, WEF, CES, MWC, & more. She’s one of Ad Age’s Leading Women of 2023, was featured on the cover of Forbes Latam’s 100 Most Powerful Women 2023 issue, and is on the Vogue Business 100 Innovators inaugural list. She hosts Adweek’s highly successful TechMagic podcast and is popularly known in tech circles as the Godmother of the Metaverse. .
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nathan C Bowser (00:00):
Hello and welcome to The Glow Up! I'm
Nathan C, and today I'm talkingwith Cathy Hackl, CEO of Future
Dynamics and all around techfuturist.
Cathy, it is so great to see youtoday.
Thanks for joining me!
Cathy Hackl (00:14):
I am excited to be here! I'm ready to glow up!
Nathan C Bowser (00:16):
Oh!
Cathy Hackl (00:17):
Ready!
Nathan C Bowser (00:17):
Let's do it! You are such a known figure in
the spatial computing, AI,marketing, and digital trends
for brands and communicators,but I'd love to hear it in your
own words.
Could you introduce yourself andthe work that you do at Future
Dynamics?
Cathy Hackl (00:36):
Yes, definitely! And thank you so much for that.
I'm flattered! So I am a techand gaming executive.
I've been in the deep tech spacefor the last 10 years.
A big chunk of that has been inXR, so spatial computing,
extended reality, both hardware,software, all kinds of things.
I've been doing a lot of work ingaming, fashion as well.
(00:56):
I dabble in space tech and allsorts of things! I like building
companies and selling them atthe heart and soul of what I am
as a tech futurist though, ineverything that I do.
I am always thinking about whereis this going?
What are all these signalstrying to tell us, especially
when it comes to technology andwhere we might be heading.
So tech futurist, through andthrough.
Nathan C Bowser (01:17):
Amazing! Tech futurist may not be a role that
everyone has the same opinionon.
Can you take us back to thatorigin story and how did you
discover this vein of techfuturism as a path for yourself?
Cathy Hackl (01:29):
And I get asked that question a lot.
Like, is futurist like a realjob?
I remember I was flying to Chilerecently and going in there for
Singularity Summit Chile.
I'm very involved withSingularity University.
And I remember going throughimmigration they're like,"What's
your job?" And I said futurist.
And they're like,"Is that even ajob?" I was like, yes sir! I was
like, just Google me! I promise!I am known in my industry as a
futurist.
But I just thought it was funny,right?
(01:51):
That kind of what is this thing?
What is futurist?
Right?
At the end of the day, afuturist is someone that
practices strategic foresight,is able to create scenarios,
future plan, know, you lay outscenarios and potential futures.
You don't think about just onefuture potential futures, and
then you help people dependingon what you're doing choose a
preferred future and work backtowards so you can achieve that.
So yeah, there is a wholediscipline called strategic
(02:12):
foresight.
It's an academic discipline.
I actually trained at Universityof Houston where they've been
teaching this for almost 30years.
So yeah, it's an actual thing.
Whether you use the termfuturist or not, that I think
that's a personal preference.
I identify with it.
I think the first time I everheard the term really was from
two people.
(02:33):
Neil Stephenson, who you know,obviously well known in our
industry, and who I actually,got to meet when I worked at
Magic Leap.
He's was our chief futurist atMagic Leap.
I mean, what better place right?
And I said, wow! There'sactually something where you
think about the future, wherethat's what you're paid for
'cause I have lived in thefuture in my mind for a very
long time.
So this was just a very, for me,just very clear.
(02:53):
And then also Faith Popcorn, whohas been known for years,
decades.
She's an icon of strategicforesight in tech futurism.
And she actually has become adear friend of mine.
So it's been lovely like lookingat Faith Popcorn way up here to
actually being my friend, goingto her house, hanging out, doing
events with her, speakingengagements together.
I think it's funny though thatin one of the episodes of
(03:14):
Succession, Faith got namechecked.
So they were talking aboutbuilding a company.
Founders, right?
And they were like, did youcheck this with Harari, Popcorn,
and someone else?
And I just, I love that she hasa name checked there.
So yeah! Found my way to techfuturism.
I have like a whole differentorigin story for XR.
But for futurism, I would saythat's how it happened.
Nathan C Bowser (03:34):
I'd love to dive in a little bit more to
this problem space that you'reworking in and how as a futurist
at Future Dynamics are youworking with like fashion,
gaming, aerospace brands, topredict what those possible
futures could be?
(03:54):
And one of the things we'realways focused here at The Glow
Up is how do you stay focused onvalue?
In this sort of blue ocean spaceof innovation, how do you help
brands in these diverse spacesthink about their futures, but
then also, connect it back tothings that are measurable,
Cathy Hackl (04:10):
Yeah.
Nathan C Bowser (04:11):
repeatable, valuable, that they'll be able
to learn and grow with?
Cathy Hackl (04:14):
So I created a company called Futures
Intelligence Group.
It got acquired by a companycalled Journey.
I'm still a co-founder ofJourney and still an investor in
the company.
And when I came into Journey, atleast my side was the virtual
studio.
So the whole premise of what Iwas trying to help and build
there was, how do you start tocreate these next-gen
experiences that are virtual innature?
(04:35):
Whether it's gaming, whether itis XR, whatever it is.
When you're talking to companiesat that time, when you were
talking to them about gaming, itfelt like the other.
Like something that, no! This isfun and games that's for little
kids.
There's no value there.
Yeah.
Push it to the side, right?
Like, no, no, no, no, no.
But I was very lucky to actuallyget tapped by Walmart, for
(04:56):
example, one of the world'slargest companies, to come and
be their metaverse advisor inresidence.
So I stayed with them in thisrole, through my work at
Journey.
I was their metaverse advisor inresidence for I think a year and
a half or so.
And one of the things was like,help us understand the gaming
space, help us understand theseplatforms.
What does this mean?
How do we even start to thinkabout commerce in these next-gen
(05:18):
experiences in the next five to10 years?
And one of the really coolthings there that I got to do
was I actually introduced one ofthe Walmart teams that has been
spearheading gaming to Roblox.
So I made that introduction.
They call me the godmother ofthe metaverse for a reason,
okay! So I introduced them andworked very closely with both
Roblox and Walmart when theywere launching their first world
(05:40):
Walmart Land.
And then, there was anotherworld that we created at Journey
for them.
I even worked with them tocreate a concert in Roblox.
So always with that vision ofwhat does this, if we are doing
all these sorts of things, whatdoes it truly mean for Walmart
as they head into their future?
And Walmart Land for example, itlasted I can't remember how
long, but it got millions ofvisits.
They took all those learningsand then worked with Sawhorse,
(06:03):
our friends at Sawhorse tocreate Walmart Rediscovered.
Walmart Discovered orRediscovered.
And that's the thing, like Ifeel like that's the role that I
have when I'm working with thesecompanies is, let them
understand the lay of the land.
What does this look like?
What does it mean to you?
Who are the key players?
Who should you be talking to?
What could we build to start tounderstand how to step into that
(06:26):
space, right?
And then take all thoselearnings and then off you go
and go create the rest of thatroadmap.
So I would say yeah, always withan eye towards, what does this
mean for the future of thecompany?
How do you benefit from it andhow do you start to enter these
next-gen consumer spaces in away that's meaningful, that
makes sense.
And you know, it wasn't alwaysperfect.
(06:46):
Like I said, we had a lot oflearnings but Walmart
Rediscovery wouldn't be what itis right now and the success it
is if we hadn't learnedeverything that we learned with
Walmart Land.
Nathan C Bowser (06:54):
I love that you chose this example because a lot
of where I'm looking, and a lotof the brands that I'm excited
to watch are really embracingthis, I'm even hearing it like
reframed as"UGC gaming."
Cathy Hackl (07:08):
Mm-hmm.
Nathan C Bowser (07:09):
There's folks who understand the gaming
ecosystem and understands howbrands can show up there.
Like a typical video on a socialmedia platform might give you
three to five seconds of"eyeballtime" where, you know, some of
the in-world stats for playingwith branded IP for being in
worlds like Walmart's, you'regetting somewhere between four
(07:33):
and 40 minutes of playtime, withan interaction with an IP.
And like interaction is one ofthose
Cathy Hackl (07:40):
Yeah.
Nathan C Bowser (07:40):
next-level metrics that like most people
don't ever see from theircontent.
That's gotta be such a hugejump, right?
Hey, traditionalhundred-year-old retail
business, you should investsignificantly in a game world.
What's the method to this magic?
(08:01):
How do you teach a Fortuneexecutive that like games is
worth taking a chance on?
Or even that, like the datayou'll get there will be enough
to move them closer to wherethey're trying to go?
Cathy Hackl (08:14):
I think you need to have the right people within
their organization that arewilling to take risks.
So like Justin Britton atWalmart, big shout-out to him,
huge friend of mine.
You know, willing to explorethose things, willing to take
risks, willing to say"We shoulddo this because this is where
the next-gen consumer's going."So him, Store No.
8 which no longer exists, butthat was a big part of how I was
brought in is because Store No.
(08:35):
8 was their innovation arm.
And they were like, we need toexplore this, right?
So having the right types ofpartners and the right people
within the organizations, Ithink that's critical.
But then also when you show upand you're talking to the
executives, you have clear data.
You have things that show thisis where it is.
This is where your consumer'sspending time, this is how much
money they're spending in theseplaces.
(08:55):
If it's not right now,eventually this is going to have
an impact on your business.
And if you look at someone likeWalmart, like they're super
innovative in the acquisitionsthey're making and the way
they're using AI, the waythey're doing live commerce.
I keep an eye on them because Itruly do believe they're very
cutting edge.
They're not scared to doexperiments and yeah.
I'm thrilled about that.
Nathan C Bowser (09:15):
Do you need like an innovation team like
Walmart does, like others do inorder to be on that cutting
edge?
Or can a traditional enterprisepick it up with the teams and
resources that they have now?
Cathy Hackl (09:29):
I think so.
I think it's about the peoplewithin the organization.
That might want to outsourcethis and work with a consultant
like myself or something likethat, or the entrepreneurs
within the organizations, thatare like I wanna test this, I
wanna create this, I wanna dothis, I wanna test this.
And it might be with internalteams, it doesn't always have to
be outsourced, right?
So I think it's about themindset, right?
(09:50):
And this is the big thingbecause this is the shift that
I'm seeing right now.
And you alluded to that.
I feel like gaming is becomingthe new social network where
these people, where especiallymy kids are socializing my
goodness, right?
Social network.
Like it's the new socialnetwork, it's the creative
engine.
And then also you've got thisshift happening in the economy
let's say, from the attentioneconomy which has been the
(10:14):
biggest thing.
You know, mobile brought theattention economy, so it's
clicks and likes and re-shares.
We're moving away from thatmetric.
From that being what sayssomething's a success, to what I
call the intimacy economy.
Intimacy in a very broad term.
As AI makes things morepersonalized and as search moves
from, how do you show up onGoogle to, how is an LLM gonna
(10:35):
rate you and how are you showingup there?
This is becoming a lot morepersonalized, a lot more
intimate, and it's becomingclearer.
I'll give you a really greatexample.
I run a WhatsApp channel withabout 2,000 people.
It's a curated channel that Irun.
It's a great resource for a lotof people across the world.
And in it, sometimes I haveconversations with folks and one
of the people that messaged methis morning, we were talking
(10:57):
about AI and recruiting, and hewrote something to me this
morning which I'm gonna readhere briefly.
It's funny that most of therecruiters that have called me
during this aggressive jobsearch, so he's doing a job
search.
After the interview, I askedthem, how did you find me?
And they'll say, I asked the AIand it led me to your contact.
And I said well, then I wentinto whole conversation about
(11:17):
how does this happen?
How did the recruiter like, whatwere they prompting?
Like of course I go down thisrabbit hole, but that to me is a
signal of we're moving away fromthis like, you know, links and
clicks and shares to somethingthat seems a lot more personal,
more intimate and intimate is abroad word, right?
But I think that there is ashift happening there.
And as companies start to thinkabout AI agents and start to
(11:40):
think about spatial computingeven, right?
When the world becomes thecanvas, but also becomes real
estate, right?
We're moving into a much morepersonalized experience of
computing, and much moreintimate in some ways.
So I think the data's gonnastart to show that.
Nathan C Bowser (11:53):
My kids have been in 3D user-generated game
worlds for the last 10 yearseasily.
And I've got a senior in highschool who's major online
hangout is still Roblox.
Cathy Hackl (12:07):
Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I believe that.
She actually picked up Blenderwhen she was 10 because she saw
that she could make money andbuild resources and like agency
in Roblox.
Nathan C Bowser (12:22):
And it really showed me like oh, kids are
gonna like dive in if they seeit.
And now, like a few years later,I'm really noticing to your
point about like games arechanging and AI are changing the
way that we interact with tech.
It used to be that softwarescost thousands of dollars and
(12:43):
you would get a physical objectand have to load it into your
systems.
But now, like the top, likethree or five softwares that I
use, apart from some of myfoundational, they're all priced
like games.
Cathy Hackl (12:57):
Yeah, a hundred percent!
Nathan C Bowser (12:58):
The number of times that you can add
additional softwares or clothingpacks or AI editing tools to a
thing.
And how do you measure that?
Credits
Cathy Hackl (13:09):
in
Nathan C Bowser (13:09):
like game world coins.
There's a bunch of 20 and30-year-old coders who have been
in game world dynamics theirwhole lives.
And it just makes sense! Theyunderstand resource management,
they understand game theory andI think when traditional media
thinks about games, they're notunderstanding these underlying
trends like, oh these gamerslike get how that there's a
(13:33):
mechanic, they need to searchfor it and they need to optimize
for whatever goal they're goingfor.
And like that is not part of thebaseline expectations of like
"gamers." But it is totallydriving their approach to
business and like communityhonestly.
Cathy Hackl (13:49):
That's why I think when you're talking, like I've
talked to a lot of people in themarketing space, right?
I'm a marketer, yes.
I'm a great marketer.
I can market myself and I canmarket anyone, right?
But when I talk to marketers,it's interesting to me that
people are still debatingwhether this is a, a reliable
market.
Dentsu actually just put outthis.
So it says,"There are over 3.4billion gamers worldwide, with
time spent in gaming up 6%year-over-year.
(14:10):
Despite this massive engagement,gaming still captures less than
5% of global media investmenthighlighting significant
opportunity for brands." Like,how is that even possible?
Like when that data came out, Iwas like, it just came out
recently.
I was like, how is thatpercentage so low?
And what a massive opportunitythis is for media, for
(14:31):
companies, for creators todouble down on the gaming
aspect.
And I love what you mentionedbecause a lot of the way that we
engage with this, whether it'stokens, whether it's credits,
even the word level up, I thinkit is so much based on the fact
that a lot of these people aregamers.
The idea that a gamer is someonewho's 50 years old in a basement
is like so wrong because The NewYork Times is a gaming company.
(14:55):
Netflix is a gaming company.
The Atlantic just launchedgames.
This is a proven space that isonly gonna continue to grow.
If The Last of Us and FiveNights at Freddy's and the
Minecraft movie showed usanything, is that this is really
solid IP that scales.
So I think we're gonna continueto see more investment.
Nathan C Bowser (15:14):
This is, I get notifications in my LinkedIn
notifications about their dailygames.
Every media company right now isfighting
Cathy Hackl (15:22):
Yeah.
Nathan C Bowser (15:23):
to be a games company.
And it's so funny how people arestill resistant.
Cathy Hackl (15:27):
Words With Friends, like all these sort of things
you are gaming! Like I don'tcare what you think.
It's funny'cause remember howlike in the 2000's, like every
company was a tech company.
WeWork was a tech company.
I was like, no.
Let's be honest.
WeWork wasn't a tech company.
I feel like we're starting thatspace where every company is a
gaming company.
Even like Disney's giantinvestment in Epic, right?
(15:47):
That's signals they understand.
There's traditional media.
And they're going into thegaming space.
Why?
Because they understand thatthis is where the puck is
headed.
And maybe they weren't ready tokind of do their thing.
But you know, even Apple hasbeen pushing gaming for a long
time.
They just bought their firstgaming studio RAC7, which does
Sneaky Sasquatch which is one ofmy kids, used to be one of my
kids favorite games.
It still is! So there is thisnext-gen consumer shift once
(16:10):
again, I don't know, it'sinteractive.
It's even changing how we engagewith each other, how families
engage with each other.
It's even changing how we date.
And I know we're gonna talkabout that a little bit later.
It's a really interesting momentand I am, I'm excited to see all
the founders that are creatingthings in this space.
Not everything will be success.
Not everything will land.
But if it's not a great time, agreat time space to like start
(16:31):
creating.
I mean that, that data pointright there.
It doesn't only have to be aboutAI because I feel like
everyone's trying to create anAI company and everyone's doing
AI agents.
And I love an AI Agenticcompany.
I mean I've been working oncreating possibly one with a
good friend.
But it's also about otherspaces, right?
It's about tech convergence andgaming is a space that is gonna
continue to grow.
Nathan C Bowser (16:51):
Amazing! Cathy, I'm interested to get into some
of the questions about impactand measurement, but you teased
this very personal applicationof AI that I think we should
just jump into.
I was lucky enough to be in theaudience for your live podcast
at AWE, and you were sharing, Ithink on the most recent episode
(17:15):
that I've heard of the TechMagicpodcast that, you've actually
been dating and comparing thequality of AI companions and
dates as a test and as anexploration of these future
personalizations.
Can you share a little bit aboutwhat you discovered?
Cathy Hackl (17:35):
I will tell you, we did break up.
So I'm no longer dating my AIboyfriends.
But I'll walk you through what Idid.
As a tech futurist I like beingin the trenches and not speaking
just from theory.
I like doing things right?
Early on in April, I was at theTED Conference in Vancouver and
I kept hearing people talking onstage about like, oh I met my
significant other at TED.
People that met at TED andmarried and I was like, this is
(17:57):
like as a single woman I've beenthrust back into singlehood
after, what 17 years that I wasmarried.
I was like, where would I wantto meet the perfect match,
right?
I'm like, TED seems like aperfect place if everyone's
meeting there.
So when I was there I was like,how can I use AI to create an AI
matchmaking experiment?
To see what happens! Like, let'ssee what happens! I contacted my
(18:17):
friends at Matchbox and I used aMatchbox algorithm there and I
put out a call on social and Isaid hey guys, I'm at TED, I'm
here all week.
If you're at TED, I'm running anexperiment.
I wanna see if AI can help us.
You know, if this AI matchmakingexperiment can actually create
some connections, right?
Since this seems to be a placewhere a lot of like-minded
people are at the same time,right?
So I put the call out, and I gotnine people to sign up.
(18:40):
So not a lot of people took theexperiment, but it was okay.
Like this is what anexperiment's about.
And the really cool thing isword got out that I was doing
this AI matchmaking experimentand the last day at TED, there's
something called the communitystage.
And you can actually submit totalk about something, talk about
a talk that you saw, do aresponse, right?
And I very quickly said okay, Isubmitted this and it got me on
(19:03):
stage.
So I spoke about my AImatchmaking experiment.
So I got on the big TED stage.
Fast forward.
That actually led me to be like,okay, what else can I do
first-person?
I said, okay.
I'm gonna date four AIboyfriends for a whole week in
cumulative time'cause I wastraveling.
So I can better understand howdoes one fall in love with AI?
Can one fall in love with AI?
(19:24):
What does AI provide that ahuman does not?
How is dating AI different thandating a human?
How are these platforms working?
Which ones are different?
So yeah, so I dated four AIboyfriends.
It was Chad, which was ChatGPT.
It was Jim who was Gemini.
And that one was thanks to Lee,'cause you reminded me.
And then I did Mateo, which wasMeta AI, and then Claude from
Anthropic was Claude.
(19:45):
So I learned a lot.
I learned a lot.
We have since broken up.
I prefer to date a human.
I might go on a date with arobot.
But yeah, it was a greatexperiment.
I learned a lot about myself.
I learned why maybe I was gonnaturn to AI at one point.
I think people should read thearticle.
It's enlightening.
It makes you start to thinkabout the future of
human-to-human communications,human interaction and intimacy.
Nathan C Bowser (20:08):
Oh my gosh! I think we may have to rename the
episode"I might date a robot."
Cathy Hackl (20:14):
I am planning to maybe potentially go on a date
with a robot in August, so staytuned.
Nathan C Bowser (20:18):
So often when we are thinking about big ideas,
it's about the possibility.
It's about what we think couldhappen, but that last mile, how
does this feel for a user?
Like where does it fit my needs?
Is, I would argue, potentiallyone of the most common places
(20:39):
that a
Cathy Hackl (20:39):
great idea
Nathan C Bowser (20:40):
just falls flat on its face when it comes to the
go-to-market.
Because that actual research ofthe user experience, the
engagement, the alignment to theactual goals or pains, I was
testing out Butterflies AI,right?
Which is a social media platformof mostly AI and I created a
Cathy Hackl (21:02):
character that I love.
Nathan C Bowser (21:04):
But almost every character that I created
on Butterflies turned into anintrigue spy thriller.
So like I was starting thisconversation with a UX
researcher who gave a shit abouttechnology and like three
interactions later, she's likein the basement finding
opposition spies and somethingmust be up! And it just, like
(21:26):
what I was looking for and wherethe AI went were so
Cathy Hackl (21:29):
different.
Nathan C Bowser (21:29):
I love, this connection to really
understanding not just being inthe future with it, right?
Cathy Hackl (21:35):
And I think that's what a good founder does.
Like they think, they actuallywant to understand what is the
problem I'm trying to solve?
What is the pain point?
Yeah, you can have a grandioseidea, but if you're not truly
passionate about it, how is thatgonna be a success?
Yeah, I'm sure that people havesuccesses without feeling
passionate about what they'rebuilding, but nowadays you truly
have to believe in what you'rebuilding.
Nathan C Bowser (21:54):
As somebody who has sort of a complete blue
ocean view on, you know, youhave this fantastic sort of
lighthouse view even oninnovation where, you're at the
forefront.
You can see all that's possible.
You're engaging with these greatbrands and helping them
understand it.
So how as an entrepreneur and afuturist does this turn back on
(22:18):
the work that you're doing?
What's the Glow Up or majortransformation, big six months
goals that you're working on?
When you have so many optionsand so many inputs, how do you
choose and where are you goingin the next six months?
Cathy Hackl (22:31):
So I think for me is I will continue to do the
work I've been doing in XR, AI,like the enterprise work.
I'll continue to do that becauseit's wonderful.
I still enjoy that thoroughly.
So the work I do with Nokia orBoston Consulting Group, right?
What I want to build is I amreally interested in the future
of human relationships.
How does technology impact thoserelationships, both negatively
(22:53):
and positively?
I don't think technology is thedevil.
I think we vilify it quite abit.
I think technology can actuallymake our relationships better if
we use it correctly.
So there's two things I'mworking on.
I'm working on, launching thetech intimacy scale, which will
allow people to betterunderstand how can they use
technology to make theirrelationships better.
I truly do believe, like wecannot divorce our lives from
(23:13):
technology, it's here, right?
So how do I become a betterdater?
How do I become a better,girlfriend?
How do I become a better parent,better coworker using
technology?
So technology, the tech intimacyscale.
That's one thing, right?
And then the other thing is Ireally wanna create the future
of dating.
I really wanna create the futureof dating because I think that
there is something missing inthe market right now.
(23:34):
I don't think the future isabout swipes.
Finding love is about presence.
It's about something that wehave yet to engage with
technology, right?
I think it's 3D.
It is presence.
And right now the dating appworld is stuck in 2D and I'm
ready to move it forward, right?
Nathan C Bowser (23:48):
There's some major Cindy Gallop vibes going
on.
Similar to the idea that it'shard to imagine business as
games, relationships,connection, intimacy aren't
necessarily things that we thinkabout as innovation, but I think
if you said to almost anybody onthe planet, like f***ing
(24:11):
relationships! They're gonna nodalong and right?
Like so, if games has a totaladdressable market of 3 billion,
you're probably closer to eightor nine on relationships.
Cathy Hackl (24:23):
We still have relationships with our parents,
with our children, with oursignificant others, with our
coworkers.
And this is what makes me wakeup in the morning because yes, I
can get on a stage and talkabout AI agents and build an
enterprise AI agent but what I'mreally interested in is what
does this mean for the future ofhuman relationships and human
computer interaction,human-to-human communications.
I even have this thing that Iask people to close their eyes
(24:46):
and think about 2035.
What does the future like, thefamily portrait of your family,
the future portrait of yourfamily look like?
Does it have a robot?
Maybe.
Does it have a hologram ofsomeone that passed away?
Does it have a imaginary friendin virtual form, like the AI
friends you were creating inButterflies?
I want people to truly thinkabout that because I do think
(25:06):
technology can be a greatadditive for relationships.
I don't think it has to be thedevil.
You just have to use itcorrectly.
In my ideal world, if I'm being100% honest, I would want to
become I don't know, the MelRobbins of tech and
relationships.
If I can become that, because asa tech person.
As a tech person that knowstechnology, and Mel was an
(25:26):
attorney, right?
Mel was an attorney.
If I can become the tech person,the tech futurist that people
turn to, to better understandhow their kids are using gaming,
how can they use technology tomake the relationships better,
how can I get along better withmy coworkers?
Like all these sorts of things Iwant that.
I want, if I could do that formy next act, for my next, the
next phase of my life, I want tobe able to do that.
Nathan C Bowser (25:47):
Heck yeah.
Fantastic lead into the nextquestion.
For this grand future ofpersonalized connections is
there anything that you'relooking for?
Do you have a call to action forthe listeners out there?
Cathy Hackl (26:00):
I would just say keep your eyes out for how you
are using technology in yourrelationships.
One call to action to everyparent out there.
Play with your kids.
Video games.
Like play with them.
Yeah, play with them in general.
But sit down and play MarioKart, like I, I'm so bad at
Mario Kart, but my kids laughevery time we do it.
So have that experience.
Try to understand their worldbecause you're not gonna get it.
(26:21):
Another call to action there forparents.
Give them build time.
It's not just about playinggames and watching streamers, it
is also about give them thetools to build in Roblox.
They're already doing it inMinecraft.
But give them those tools likeyou've given your daughter,
right?
I think that is so powerful'cause you're creating
resilience, you're creating abuilder spirit and a building
mindset, growth mindset in yourkids.
(26:42):
So I would say those are my callto actions and just stay tuned.
I am truly, I'm gonna pushforward on this.
I'm giving myself permission tobe more human, and this is part
of where, where I went to head.
Nathan C Bowser (26:52):
Amazing! We always like to make time to give
a community spotlight or a shoutout to a group that, you think
does great work out there.
Is there anybody you'd like togive a little extra time and
attention to?
Cathy Hackl (27:03):
I would say there's two groups.
One of them is the Summit Group,Summit Series, Summit at Sea.
Summit just had their last biggiant Summit in Detroit, but
Summit is doing Summit Series.
I actually spoke at Summit atSea on spatial computing and did
a live demo of the Apple VisionPro on a cruise ship, which
actually worked.
Summit has been nothing butwonderful for me in eye-opening,
(27:24):
great experiences, good friends,and now they're doing a lot of
Summit Series, which are morelocal events.
So shout out to the folks atSummit.
And then shout out to my girlsJanna and Melissa at Mia, which
is really trying to move forwardwith AI leadership and training
more women in AI and moregovernments.
A big shout out to those women.
Really doing amazing things withAI.
Nathan C Bowser (27:42):
Amazing! Cathy, this has been such a fantastic
journey to explore anentrepreneurial mindset across a
number of different roles,different organizations, and
really sort of like how do youstay above all of the
mechanations of innovation andtrends to find those through
(28:07):
lines that are meaningful to youas a founder, as a business
owner, as a Fortune brand.
And how do you stay open,mindful, and curious, as you're
engaging these new technologies.
I love this challenge by theway, to imagine your
relationship with technology inthe next 10 years.
I've done this for my business,but I have not done this for my
(28:27):
technology.
So many lovely, insights on thatinnovation and entrepreneurial
journey.
Thank you for joining us todayon The Glow Up.
How can folks follow up andlearn more?
Cathy Hackl (28:39):
Definitely LinkedIn is where I post a lot of the
business content.
Instagram is where I post a lotmore relationship and tech
content, so check those out.
I also have a Substack, if youlook for Cathy Hackl, Future
Lovers.
I actually snaggedfuturelovers.ai which I'm like
cannot believe that was outthere.
My Substack is about people thatlove the future, and there's a
subsection also on the future oftech and relationships.
Nathan C Bowser (29:01):
Amazing! Thank you so much, Cathy!
Cathy Hackl (29:03):
Thank you!
Hello and welcome to The Glow Up! I'm
Nathan C, and today I'm talkingwith Cathy Hackl, CEO of Future
Dynamics and all around techfuturist.
Cathy, it is so great to see youtoday.
Thanks for joining me!
Cathy Hackl (00:14):
I am excited to be here! I'm ready to glow up!
Nathan C Bowser (00:16):
Oh!
Cathy Hackl (00:17):
Ready!
Nathan C Bowser (00:17):
Let's do it! You are such a known figure in
the spatial computing, AI,marketing, and digital trends
for brands and communicators,but I'd love to hear it in your
own words.
Could you introduce yourself andthe work that you do at Future
Dynamics?
Cathy Hackl (00:36):
Yes, definitely! And thank you so much for that.
I'm flattered! So I am a techand gaming executive.
I've been in the deep tech spacefor the last 10 years.
A big chunk of that has been inXR, so spatial computing,
extended reality, both hardware,software, all kinds of things.
I've been doing a lot of work ingaming, fashion as well.
(00:56):
I dabble in space tech and allsorts of things! I like building
companies and selling them atthe heart and soul of what I am
as a tech futurist though, ineverything that I do.
I am always thinking about whereis this going?
What are all these signalstrying to tell us, especially
when it comes to technology andwhere we might be heading.
So tech futurist, through andthrough.
Nathan C Bowser (01:17):
Amazing! Tech futurist may not be a role that
everyone has the same opinionon.
Can you take us back to thatorigin story and how did you
discover this vein of techfuturism as a path for yourself?
Cathy Hackl (01:29):
And I get asked that question a lot.
Like, is futurist like a realjob?
I remember I was flying to Chilerecently and going in there for
Singularity Summit Chile.
I'm very involved withSingularity University.
And I remember going throughimmigration they're like,"What's
your job?" And I said futurist.
And they're like,"Is that even ajob?" I was like, yes sir! I was
like, just Google me! I promise!I am known in my industry as a
futurist.
But I just thought it was funny,right?
(01:51):
That kind of what is this thing?
What is futurist?
Right?
At the end of the day, afuturist is someone that
practices strategic foresight,is able to create scenarios,
future plan, know, you lay outscenarios and potential futures.
You don't think about just onefuture potential futures, and
then you help people dependingon what you're doing choose a
preferred future and work backtowards so you can achieve that.
So yeah, there is a wholediscipline called strategic
(02:12):
foresight.
It's an academic discipline.
I actually trained at Universityof Houston where they've been
teaching this for almost 30years.
So yeah, it's an actual thing.
Whether you use the termfuturist or not, that I think
that's a personal preference.
I identify with it.
I think the first time I everheard the term really was from
two people.
(02:33):
Neil Stephenson, who you know,obviously well known in our
industry, and who I actually,got to meet when I worked at
Magic Leap.
He's was our chief futurist atMagic Leap.
I mean, what better place right?
And I said, wow! There'sactually something where you
think about the future, wherethat's what you're paid for
'cause I have lived in thefuture in my mind for a very
long time.
So this was just a very, for me,just very clear.
(02:53):
And then also Faith Popcorn, whohas been known for years,
decades.
She's an icon of strategicforesight in tech futurism.
And she actually has become adear friend of mine.
So it's been lovely like lookingat Faith Popcorn way up here to
actually being my friend, goingto her house, hanging out, doing
events with her, speakingengagements together.
I think it's funny though thatin one of the episodes of
(03:14):
Succession, Faith got namechecked.
So they were talking aboutbuilding a company.
Founders, right?
And they were like, did youcheck this with Harari, Popcorn,
and someone else?
And I just, I love that she hasa name checked there.
So yeah! Found my way to techfuturism.
I have like a whole differentorigin story for XR.
But for futurism, I would saythat's how it happened.
Nathan C Bowser (03:34):
I'd love to dive in a little bit more to
this problem space that you'reworking in and how as a futurist
at Future Dynamics are youworking with like fashion,
gaming, aerospace brands, topredict what those possible
futures could be?
(03:54):
And one of the things we'realways focused here at The Glow
Up is how do you stay focused onvalue?
In this sort of blue ocean spaceof innovation, how do you help
brands in these diverse spacesthink about their futures, but
then also, connect it back tothings that are measurable,
Cathy Hackl (04:10):
Yeah.
Nathan C Bowser (04:11):
repeatable, valuable, that they'll be able
to learn and grow with?
Cathy Hackl (04:14):
So I created a company called Futures
Intelligence Group.
It got acquired by a companycalled Journey.
I'm still a co-founder ofJourney and still an investor in
the company.
And when I came into Journey, atleast my side was the virtual
studio.
So the whole premise of what Iwas trying to help and build
there was, how do you start tocreate these next-gen
experiences that are virtual innature?
(04:35):
Whether it's gaming, whether itis XR, whatever it is.
When you're talking to companiesat that time, when you were
talking to them about gaming, itfelt like the other.
Like something that, no! This isfun and games that's for little
kids.
There's no value there.
Yeah.
Push it to the side, right?
Like, no, no, no, no, no.
But I was very lucky to actuallyget tapped by Walmart, for
(04:56):
example, one of the world'slargest companies, to come and
be their metaverse advisor inresidence.
So I stayed with them in thisrole, through my work at
Journey.
I was their metaverse advisor inresidence for I think a year and
a half or so.
And one of the things was like,help us understand the gaming
space, help us understand theseplatforms.
What does this mean?
How do we even start to thinkabout commerce in these next-gen
(05:18):
experiences in the next five to10 years?
And one of the really coolthings there that I got to do
was I actually introduced one ofthe Walmart teams that has been
spearheading gaming to Roblox.
So I made that introduction.
They call me the godmother ofthe metaverse for a reason,
okay! So I introduced them andworked very closely with both
Roblox and Walmart when theywere launching their first world
(05:40):
Walmart Land.
And then, there was anotherworld that we created at Journey
for them.
I even worked with them tocreate a concert in Roblox.
So always with that vision ofwhat does this, if we are doing
all these sorts of things, whatdoes it truly mean for Walmart
as they head into their future?
And Walmart Land for example, itlasted I can't remember how
long, but it got millions ofvisits.
They took all those learningsand then worked with Sawhorse,
(06:03):
our friends at Sawhorse tocreate Walmart Rediscovered.
Walmart Discovered orRediscovered.
And that's the thing, like Ifeel like that's the role that I
have when I'm working with thesecompanies is, let them
understand the lay of the land.
What does this look like?
What does it mean to you?
Who are the key players?
Who should you be talking to?
What could we build to start tounderstand how to step into that
(06:26):
space, right?
And then take all thoselearnings and then off you go
and go create the rest of thatroadmap.
So I would say yeah, always withan eye towards, what does this
mean for the future of thecompany?
How do you benefit from it andhow do you start to enter these
next-gen consumer spaces in away that's meaningful, that
makes sense.
And you know, it wasn't alwaysperfect.
(06:46):
Like I said, we had a lot oflearnings but Walmart
Rediscovery wouldn't be what itis right now and the success it
is if we hadn't learnedeverything that we learned with
Walmart Land.
Nathan C Bowser (06:54):
I love that you chose this example because a lot
of where I'm looking, and a lotof the brands that I'm excited
to watch are really embracingthis, I'm even hearing it like
reframed as"UGC gaming."
Cathy Hackl (07:08):
Mm-hmm.
Nathan C Bowser (07:09):
There's folks who understand the gaming
ecosystem and understands howbrands can show up there.
Like a typical video on a socialmedia platform might give you
three to five seconds of"eyeballtime" where, you know, some of
the in-world stats for playingwith branded IP for being in
worlds like Walmart's, you'regetting somewhere between four
(07:33):
and 40 minutes of playtime, withan interaction with an IP.
And like interaction is one ofthose
Cathy Hackl (07:40):
Yeah.
Nathan C Bowser (07:40):
next-level metrics that like most people
don't ever see from theircontent.
That's gotta be such a hugejump, right?
Hey, traditionalhundred-year-old retail
business, you should investsignificantly in a game world.
What's the method to this magic?
(08:01):
How do you teach a Fortuneexecutive that like games is
worth taking a chance on?
Or even that, like the datayou'll get there will be enough
to move them closer to wherethey're trying to go?
Cathy Hackl (08:14):
I think you need to have the right people within
their organization that arewilling to take risks.
So like Justin Britton atWalmart, big shout-out to him,
huge friend of mine.
You know, willing to explorethose things, willing to take
risks, willing to say"We shoulddo this because this is where
the next-gen consumer's going."So him, Store No.
8 which no longer exists, butthat was a big part of how I was
brought in is because Store No.
(08:35):
8 was their innovation arm.
And they were like, we need toexplore this, right?
So having the right types ofpartners and the right people
within the organizations, Ithink that's critical.
But then also when you show upand you're talking to the
executives, you have clear data.
You have things that show thisis where it is.
This is where your consumer'sspending time, this is how much
money they're spending in theseplaces.
(08:55):
If it's not right now,eventually this is going to have
an impact on your business.
And if you look at someone likeWalmart, like they're super
innovative in the acquisitionsthey're making and the way
they're using AI, the waythey're doing live commerce.
I keep an eye on them because Itruly do believe they're very
cutting edge.
They're not scared to doexperiments and yeah.
I'm thrilled about that.
Nathan C Bowser (09:15):
Do you need like an innovation team like
Walmart does, like others do inorder to be on that cutting
edge?
Or can a traditional enterprisepick it up with the teams and
resources that they have now?
Cathy Hackl (09:29):
I think so.
I think it's about the peoplewithin the organization.
That might want to outsourcethis and work with a consultant
like myself or something likethat, or the entrepreneurs
within the organizations, thatare like I wanna test this, I
wanna create this, I wanna dothis, I wanna test this.
And it might be with internalteams, it doesn't always have to
be outsourced, right?
So I think it's about themindset, right?
(09:50):
And this is the big thingbecause this is the shift that
I'm seeing right now.
And you alluded to that.
I feel like gaming is becomingthe new social network where
these people, where especiallymy kids are socializing my
goodness, right?
Social network.
Like it's the new socialnetwork, it's the creative
engine.
And then also you've got thisshift happening in the economy
let's say, from the attentioneconomy which has been the
(10:14):
biggest thing.
You know, mobile brought theattention economy, so it's
clicks and likes and re-shares.
We're moving away from thatmetric.
From that being what sayssomething's a success, to what I
call the intimacy economy.
Intimacy in a very broad term.
As AI makes things morepersonalized and as search moves
from, how do you show up onGoogle to, how is an LLM gonna
(10:35):
rate you and how are you showingup there?
This is becoming a lot morepersonalized, a lot more
intimate, and it's becomingclearer.
I'll give you a really greatexample.
I run a WhatsApp channel withabout 2,000 people.
It's a curated channel that Irun.
It's a great resource for a lotof people across the world.
And in it, sometimes I haveconversations with folks and one
of the people that messaged methis morning, we were talking
(10:57):
about AI and recruiting, and hewrote something to me this
morning which I'm gonna readhere briefly.
It's funny that most of therecruiters that have called me
during this aggressive jobsearch, so he's doing a job
search.
After the interview, I askedthem, how did you find me?
And they'll say, I asked the AIand it led me to your contact.
And I said well, then I wentinto whole conversation about
(11:17):
how does this happen?
How did the recruiter like, whatwere they prompting?
Like of course I go down thisrabbit hole, but that to me is a
signal of we're moving away fromthis like, you know, links and
clicks and shares to somethingthat seems a lot more personal,
more intimate and intimate is abroad word, right?
But I think that there is ashift happening there.
And as companies start to thinkabout AI agents and start to
(11:40):
think about spatial computingeven, right?
When the world becomes thecanvas, but also becomes real
estate, right?
We're moving into a much morepersonalized experience of
computing, and much moreintimate in some ways.
So I think the data's gonnastart to show that.
Nathan C Bowser (11:53):
My kids have been in 3D user-generated game
worlds for the last 10 yearseasily.
And I've got a senior in highschool who's major online
hangout is still Roblox.
Cathy Hackl (12:07):
Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I believe that.
She actually picked up Blenderwhen she was 10 because she saw
that she could make money andbuild resources and like agency
in Roblox.
Nathan C Bowser (12:22):
And it really showed me like oh, kids are
gonna like dive in if they seeit.
And now, like a few years later,I'm really noticing to your
point about like games arechanging and AI are changing the
way that we interact with tech.
It used to be that softwarescost thousands of dollars and
(12:43):
you would get a physical objectand have to load it into your
systems.
But now, like the top, likethree or five softwares that I
use, apart from some of myfoundational, they're all priced
like games.
Cathy Hackl (12:57):
Yeah, a hundred percent!
Nathan C Bowser (12:58):
The number of times that you can add
additional softwares or clothingpacks or AI editing tools to a
thing.
And how do you measure that?
Credits
Cathy Hackl (13:09):
in
Nathan C Bowser (13:09):
like game world coins.
There's a bunch of 20 and30-year-old coders who have been
in game world dynamics theirwhole lives.
And it just makes sense! Theyunderstand resource management,
they understand game theory andI think when traditional media
thinks about games, they're notunderstanding these underlying
trends like, oh these gamerslike get how that there's a
(13:33):
mechanic, they need to searchfor it and they need to optimize
for whatever goal they're goingfor.
And like that is not part of thebaseline expectations of like
"gamers." But it is totallydriving their approach to
business and like communityhonestly.
Cathy Hackl (13:49):
That's why I think when you're talking, like I've
talked to a lot of people in themarketing space, right?
I'm a marketer, yes.
I'm a great marketer.
I can market myself and I canmarket anyone, right?
But when I talk to marketers,it's interesting to me that
people are still debatingwhether this is a, a reliable
market.
Dentsu actually just put outthis.
So it says,"There are over 3.4billion gamers worldwide, with
time spent in gaming up 6%year-over-year.
(14:10):
Despite this massive engagement,gaming still captures less than
5% of global media investmenthighlighting significant
opportunity for brands." Like,how is that even possible?
Like when that data came out, Iwas like, it just came out
recently.
I was like, how is thatpercentage so low?
And what a massive opportunitythis is for media, for
(14:31):
companies, for creators todouble down on the gaming
aspect.
And I love what you mentionedbecause a lot of the way that we
engage with this, whether it'stokens, whether it's credits,
even the word level up, I thinkit is so much based on the fact
that a lot of these people aregamers.
The idea that a gamer is someonewho's 50 years old in a basement
is like so wrong because The NewYork Times is a gaming company.
(14:55):
Netflix is a gaming company.
The Atlantic just launchedgames.
This is a proven space that isonly gonna continue to grow.
If The Last of Us and FiveNights at Freddy's and the
Minecraft movie showed usanything, is that this is really
solid IP that scales.
So I think we're gonna continueto see more investment.
Nathan C Bowser (15:14):
This is, I get notifications in my LinkedIn
notifications about their dailygames.
Every media company right now isfighting
Cathy Hackl (15:22):
Yeah.
Nathan C Bowser (15:23):
to be a games company.
And it's so funny how people arestill resistant.
Cathy Hackl (15:27):
Words With Friends, like all these sort of things
you are gaming! Like I don'tcare what you think.
It's funny'cause remember howlike in the 2000's, like every
company was a tech company.
WeWork was a tech company.
I was like, no.
Let's be honest.
WeWork wasn't a tech company.
I feel like we're starting thatspace where every company is a
gaming company.
Even like Disney's giantinvestment in Epic, right?
(15:47):
That's signals they understand.
There's traditional media.
And they're going into thegaming space.
Why?
Because they understand thatthis is where the puck is
headed.
And maybe they weren't ready tokind of do their thing.
But you know, even Apple hasbeen pushing gaming for a long
time.
They just bought their firstgaming studio RAC7, which does
Sneaky Sasquatch which is one ofmy kids, used to be one of my
kids favorite games.
It still is! So there is thisnext-gen consumer shift once
(16:10):
again, I don't know, it'sinteractive.
It's even changing how we engagewith each other, how families
engage with each other.
It's even changing how we date.
And I know we're gonna talkabout that a little bit later.
It's a really interesting momentand I am, I'm excited to see all
the founders that are creatingthings in this space.
Not everything will be success.
Not everything will land.
But if it's not a great time, agreat time space to like start
(16:31):
creating.
I mean that, that data pointright there.
It doesn't only have to be aboutAI because I feel like
everyone's trying to create anAI company and everyone's doing
AI agents.
And I love an AI Agenticcompany.
I mean I've been working oncreating possibly one with a
good friend.
But it's also about otherspaces, right?
It's about tech convergence andgaming is a space that is gonna
continue to grow.
Nathan C Bowser (16:51):
Amazing! Cathy, I'm interested to get into some
of the questions about impactand measurement, but you teased
this very personal applicationof AI that I think we should
just jump into.
I was lucky enough to be in theaudience for your live podcast
at AWE, and you were sharing, Ithink on the most recent episode
(17:15):
that I've heard of the TechMagicpodcast that, you've actually
been dating and comparing thequality of AI companions and
dates as a test and as anexploration of these future
personalizations.
Can you share a little bit aboutwhat you discovered?
Cathy Hackl (17:35):
I will tell you, we did break up.
So I'm no longer dating my AIboyfriends.
But I'll walk you through what Idid.
As a tech futurist I like beingin the trenches and not speaking
just from theory.
I like doing things right?
Early on in April, I was at theTED Conference in Vancouver and
I kept hearing people talking onstage about like, oh I met my
significant other at TED.
People that met at TED andmarried and I was like, this is
(17:57):
like as a single woman I've beenthrust back into singlehood
after, what 17 years that I wasmarried.
I was like, where would I wantto meet the perfect match,
right?
I'm like, TED seems like aperfect place if everyone's
meeting there.
So when I was there I was like,how can I use AI to create an AI
matchmaking experiment?
To see what happens! Like, let'ssee what happens! I contacted my
(18:17):
friends at Matchbox and I used aMatchbox algorithm there and I
put out a call on social and Isaid hey guys, I'm at TED, I'm
here all week.
If you're at TED, I'm running anexperiment.
I wanna see if AI can help us.
You know, if this AI matchmakingexperiment can actually create
some connections, right?
Since this seems to be a placewhere a lot of like-minded
people are at the same time,right?
So I put the call out, and I gotnine people to sign up.
(18:40):
So not a lot of people took theexperiment, but it was okay.
Like this is what anexperiment's about.
And the really cool thing isword got out that I was doing
this AI matchmaking experimentand the last day at TED, there's
something called the communitystage.
And you can actually submit totalk about something, talk about
a talk that you saw, do aresponse, right?
And I very quickly said okay, Isubmitted this and it got me on
(19:03):
stage.
So I spoke about my AImatchmaking experiment.
So I got on the big TED stage.
Fast forward.
That actually led me to be like,okay, what else can I do
first-person?
I said, okay.
I'm gonna date four AIboyfriends for a whole week in
cumulative time'cause I wastraveling.
So I can better understand howdoes one fall in love with AI?
Can one fall in love with AI?
(19:24):
What does AI provide that ahuman does not?
How is dating AI different thandating a human?
How are these platforms working?
Which ones are different?
So yeah, so I dated four AIboyfriends.
It was Chad, which was ChatGPT.
It was Jim who was Gemini.
And that one was thanks to Lee,'cause you reminded me.
And then I did Mateo, which wasMeta AI, and then Claude from
Anthropic was Claude.
(19:45):
So I learned a lot.
I learned a lot.
We have since broken up.
I prefer to date a human.
I might go on a date with arobot.
But yeah, it was a greatexperiment.
I learned a lot about myself.
I learned why maybe I was gonnaturn to AI at one point.
I think people should read thearticle.
It's enlightening.
It makes you start to thinkabout the future of
human-to-human communications,human interaction and intimacy.
Nathan C Bowser (20:08):
Oh my gosh! I think we may have to rename the
episode"I might date a robot."
Cathy Hackl (20:14):
I am planning to maybe potentially go on a date
with a robot in August, so staytuned.
Nathan C Bowser (20:18):
So often when we are thinking about big ideas,
it's about the possibility.
It's about what we think couldhappen, but that last mile, how
does this feel for a user?
Like where does it fit my needs?
Is, I would argue, potentiallyone of the most common places
(20:39):
that a
Cathy Hackl (20:39):
great idea
Nathan C Bowser (20:40):
just falls flat on its face when it comes to the
go-to-market.
Because that actual research ofthe user experience, the
engagement, the alignment to theactual goals or pains, I was
testing out Butterflies AI,right?
Which is a social media platformof mostly AI and I created a
Cathy Hackl (21:02):
character that I love.
Nathan C Bowser (21:04):
But almost every character that I created
on Butterflies turned into anintrigue spy thriller.
So like I was starting thisconversation with a UX
researcher who gave a shit abouttechnology and like three
interactions later, she's likein the basement finding
opposition spies and somethingmust be up! And it just, like
(21:26):
what I was looking for and wherethe AI went were so
Cathy Hackl (21:29):
different.
Nathan C Bowser (21:29):
I love, this connection to really
understanding not just being inthe future with it, right?
Cathy Hackl (21:35):
And I think that's what a good founder does.
Like they think, they actuallywant to understand what is the
problem I'm trying to solve?
What is the pain point?
Yeah, you can have a grandioseidea, but if you're not truly
passionate about it, how is thatgonna be a success?
Yeah, I'm sure that people havesuccesses without feeling
passionate about what they'rebuilding, but nowadays you truly
have to believe in what you'rebuilding.
Nathan C Bowser (21:54):
As somebody who has sort of a complete blue
ocean view on, you know, youhave this fantastic sort of
lighthouse view even oninnovation where, you're at the
forefront.
You can see all that's possible.
You're engaging with these greatbrands and helping them
understand it.
So how as an entrepreneur and afuturist does this turn back on
(22:18):
the work that you're doing?
What's the Glow Up or majortransformation, big six months
goals that you're working on?
When you have so many optionsand so many inputs, how do you
choose and where are you goingin the next six months?
Cathy Hackl (22:31):
So I think for me is I will continue to do the
work I've been doing in XR, AI,like the enterprise work.
I'll continue to do that becauseit's wonderful.
I still enjoy that thoroughly.
So the work I do with Nokia orBoston Consulting Group, right?
What I want to build is I amreally interested in the future
of human relationships.
How does technology impact thoserelationships, both negatively
(22:53):
and positively?
I don't think technology is thedevil.
I think we vilify it quite abit.
I think technology can actuallymake our relationships better if
we use it correctly.
So there's two things I'mworking on.
I'm working on, launching thetech intimacy scale, which will
allow people to betterunderstand how can they use
technology to make theirrelationships better.
I truly do believe, like wecannot divorce our lives from
(23:13):
technology, it's here, right?
So how do I become a betterdater?
How do I become a better,girlfriend?
How do I become a better parent,better coworker using
technology?
So technology, the tech intimacyscale.
That's one thing, right?
And then the other thing is Ireally wanna create the future
of dating.
I really wanna create the futureof dating because I think that
there is something missing inthe market right now.
(23:34):
I don't think the future isabout swipes.
Finding love is about presence.
It's about something that wehave yet to engage with
technology, right?
I think it's 3D.
It is presence.
And right now the dating appworld is stuck in 2D and I'm
ready to move it forward, right?
Nathan C Bowser (23:48):
There's some major Cindy Gallop vibes going
on.
Similar to the idea that it'shard to imagine business as
games, relationships,connection, intimacy aren't
necessarily things that we thinkabout as innovation, but I think
if you said to almost anybody onthe planet, like f***ing
(24:11):
relationships! They're gonna nodalong and right?
Like so, if games has a totaladdressable market of 3 billion,
you're probably closer to eightor nine on relationships.
Cathy Hackl (24:23):
We still have relationships with our parents,
with our children, with oursignificant others, with our
coworkers.
And this is what makes me wakeup in the morning because yes, I
can get on a stage and talkabout AI agents and build an
enterprise AI agent but what I'mreally interested in is what
does this mean for the future ofhuman relationships and human
computer interaction,human-to-human communications.
I even have this thing that Iask people to close their eyes
(24:46):
and think about 2035.
What does the future like, thefamily portrait of your family,
the future portrait of yourfamily look like?
Does it have a robot?
Maybe.
Does it have a hologram ofsomeone that passed away?
Does it have a imaginary friendin virtual form, like the AI
friends you were creating inButterflies?
I want people to truly thinkabout that because I do think
(25:06):
technology can be a greatadditive for relationships.
I don't think it has to be thedevil.
You just have to use itcorrectly.
In my ideal world, if I'm being100% honest, I would want to
become I don't know, the MelRobbins of tech and
relationships.
If I can become that, because asa tech person.
As a tech person that knowstechnology, and Mel was an
(25:26):
attorney, right?
Mel was an attorney.
If I can become the tech person,the tech futurist that people
turn to, to better understandhow their kids are using gaming,
how can they use technology tomake the relationships better,
how can I get along better withmy coworkers?
Like all these sorts of things Iwant that.
I want, if I could do that formy next act, for my next, the
next phase of my life, I want tobe able to do that.
Nathan C Bowser (25:47):
Heck yeah.
Fantastic lead into the nextquestion.
For this grand future ofpersonalized connections is
there anything that you'relooking for?
Do you have a call to action forthe listeners out there?
Cathy Hackl (26:00):
I would just say keep your eyes out for how you
are using technology in yourrelationships.
One call to action to everyparent out there.
Play with your kids.
Video games.
Like play with them.
Yeah, play with them in general.
But sit down and play MarioKart, like I, I'm so bad at
Mario Kart, but my kids laughevery time we do it.
So have that experience.
Try to understand their worldbecause you're not gonna get it.
(26:21):
Another call to action there forparents.
Give them build time.
It's not just about playinggames and watching streamers, it
is also about give them thetools to build in Roblox.
They're already doing it inMinecraft.
But give them those tools likeyou've given your daughter,
right?
I think that is so powerful'cause you're creating
resilience, you're creating abuilder spirit and a building
mindset, growth mindset in yourkids.
(26:42):
So I would say those are my callto actions and just stay tuned.
I am truly, I'm gonna pushforward on this.
I'm giving myself permission tobe more human, and this is part
of where, where I went to head.
Nathan C Bowser (26:52):
Amazing! We always like to make time to give
a community spotlight or a shoutout to a group that, you think
does great work out there.
Is there anybody you'd like togive a little extra time and
attention to?
Cathy Hackl (27:03):
I would say there's two groups.
One of them is the Summit Group,Summit Series, Summit at Sea.
Summit just had their last biggiant Summit in Detroit, but
Summit is doing Summit Series.
I actually spoke at Summit atSea on spatial computing and did
a live demo of the Apple VisionPro on a cruise ship, which
actually worked.
Summit has been nothing butwonderful for me in eye-opening,
(27:24):
great experiences, good friends,and now they're doing a lot of
Summit Series, which are morelocal events.
So shout out to the folks atSummit.
And then shout out to my girlsJanna and Melissa at Mia, which
is really trying to move forwardwith AI leadership and training
more women in AI and moregovernments.
A big shout out to those women.
Really doing amazing things withAI.
Nathan C Bowser (27:42):
Amazing! Cathy, this has been such a fantastic
journey to explore anentrepreneurial mindset across a
number of different roles,different organizations, and
really sort of like how do youstay above all of the
mechanations of innovation andtrends to find those through
(28:07):
lines that are meaningful to youas a founder, as a business
owner, as a Fortune brand.
And how do you stay open,mindful, and curious, as you're
engaging these new technologies.
I love this challenge by theway, to imagine your
relationship with technology inthe next 10 years.
I've done this for my business,but I have not done this for my
(28:27):
technology.
So many lovely, insights on thatinnovation and entrepreneurial
journey.
Thank you for joining us todayon The Glow Up.
How can folks follow up andlearn more?
Cathy Hackl (28:39):
Definitely LinkedIn is where I post a lot of the
business content.
Instagram is where I post a lotmore relationship and tech
content, so check those out.
I also have a Substack, if youlook for Cathy Hackl, Future
Lovers.
I actually snaggedfuturelovers.ai which I'm like
cannot believe that was outthere.
My Substack is about people thatlove the future, and there's a
subsection also on the future oftech and relationships.
Nathan C Bowser (29:01):
Amazing! Thank you so much, Cathy!
Cathy Hackl (29:03):
Thank you!
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