January 23, 2025 • 36 mins
Adrian Rashad Driscoll is the CEO of Collimation and a top 100 XR expert focused on storytelling through immersive technologies. Here's a summary of the key points from his interview:
Key Takeaways:
- Driscoll emphasizes using XR technology to create impactful, empathetic stories rather than just for gimmicks.
- He developed "Footprints Through Time," an AR experience about the transatlantic slave trade, using volumetric capture and animation to create empathy.
- Collimation focuses on making technology invisible to let stories have visibility.
- Driscoll advocates for inclusive technology development and responsible AI use.
- He's working on making concerts more accessible through XR, aiming to provide the energy of a mega concert with the intimacy of MTV Unplugged.
Driscoll's journey into XR began 12 years ago as a contractor for Oculus. He founded Collimation to tell impactful stories using immersive technologies. A key project, "Footprints Through Time," uses AR to educate about the transatlantic slave trade, emphasizing empathy and understanding over confrontation.
Driscoll stresses the importance of narrative-first approaches in XR projects, often advising clients that photorealism isn't always necessary for impactful experiences. He aims to keep technology invisible, letting the story take center stage.
Looking ahead, Driscoll wants to scale up initiatives like the Scale Up Immersive program, which helped 30 companies enter the XR space. Collimation has recently opened its seed funding round after five years of bootstrapping.
About Adrian Rashad Driscoll Social Alchemist, VR Nerd, Executive Troublemaker
From the small city of Barstow CA, (yeah, the pitstop on the way to Vegas) Adrian Rashad Driscoll followed his dream of becoming a professional actor and moved to Los Angeles. Shortly after that, he was woken up. After 15 years of great weather and bad traffic, he now makes his living as a filmmaker
and Immersive Media creative.
He has had the privilege of working with large companies such as CBS, NBC, KTLA, The CW, Paramount, Facebook, Microsoft, United Way, and more to push the boundaries of immersive media whilst producing great XR titles and experiences.
In 2020, Adrian partnered with music legend Gimel “Young Guru” Keaton to form the immersive media production house, Collimation with a dedication to bridge entertainment with emerging media. In addition, Adrian teachesin multiple education programs around the world to bring more people into
immersive media.
He also teaches at the OYA & EAST education programs on multiple XR initiatives
geared towards education, entertainment, and medical research. His goal is to create opportunities for under-served communities and using said opportunities, to change their current trajectory. “French
fries” are the key to his heart.
A "glow up" signifies a positive transformation, reflecting the journey of becoming a better, more successful version of oneself.
At The Tech Glow Up, we humanize the startup and innovation landscape by focusing on the essential aspects of the entrepreneurial journey. Groundbreaking ideas are often ahead of their time, making resilience and perseverance vital for founders and product leaders.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nathan C (00:00):
if I go mute, it's just because I'm trying to be
respectful.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (00:03):
I appreciate it, but it's a
conversation, you know, and so,like, we're meant to, step on a
line.
I'm very verbose sometimes, andit's like, Adrian, shut up, you
know.
So, like, that should be theentrance of everyone.
Adrian, shut up.
That should be the soundbite.
Nathan C (00:20):
been using this kind of banter as the intro to the
show, so we'll probably justleave it in.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (00:26):
I love it.
Nathan C (00:28):
Hello! Hello and welcome to the Glow Up! Fabulous
Conversations with InnovativeMinds.
Today, I have the distinctpleasure of chatting with Adrian
Rashad Driscoll, CEO ofCollimation and doer of many
things in the worlds of art andXR.
Adrian so good to see you.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (00:48):
Peace.
Happy to be here.
Nathan C (00:50):
Amazing.
So great to have you on The GlowUp.
first off, you are somebody whodoes a lot in the world of
spatial computing and art andmusic.
Could you introduce yourself alittle bit and maybe, try to
hint at, some of the origins toyour work in innovative
technologies?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (01:08):
Okay, yeah, that's a big question.
peace everybody, Adrian RashadDriscoll.
I am a top 100 XR expert,storyteller first.
that just means I'm a nerd thatlikes to tell stories.
Sometimes I use a headset.
Um, yeah, you understand, yeah,you're on the same page.
But, yeah, I've been in XR for12 years now.
I started out with a companycalled Oculus.
(01:28):
And I fell in love with theability to tell certain stories.
you know, I, I've always been a,I, I've never had a job, so I
wasn't working for Oculus.
I was a contractor.
I've never had a job in my life.
but what, well, I'm not surewe'll dive into that, but, yeah,
I was a contractor there.
I fell in love with thestorytelling ability, and then I
was so heartbroken that nobodywas using it.
(01:49):
Not nobody, but most people wereusing it as a gimmick as opposed
to creating impactful andengaging and empathic stories.
So I use that leverage and Istarted telling my story through
the medium.
And now I try to get rid ofpeople using tech for tech sake.
I tell people and I tellcompanies and brands, how do you
leverage this technologywithout, you know, without
(02:11):
making friction with having ithave an actual impact for you
and your users?
Nathan C (02:15):
So, are you able to share some examples of maybe one
of your favorite stories thatyou've been able to tell, with
VR technologies?
Adrian Rashad Drisc (02:25):
Absolutely.
the most impactful andcompletely my favorite story so
far is Footprints Through Time.
You know, we used volumetriccapture, mixed with augmented
reality to tell the stories ofthe transatlantic slave trade.
And although most peoplewouldn't believe it, racism is
still very prominent.
In America, you know, I've, I'vebeen called a lot of things this
(02:49):
year that I shouldn't have beencalled, you know, so it's, it's
surprising to people who don'tunderstand it, but you can't
have.
You can't just go and yell atpeople, say, Oh, you're bad.
Cause you're white.
And it's like, wait, what?
You know?
So the goal is always to createempathy, to create understanding
and create conversations.
You have a young boy, not young.
He's 18, but I'm old.
(03:10):
So he's young to me, but, youknow, we got this kid who is
with his best friend and that'swho you play.
You play his best friend.
And he sees this woman, this oldwoman, just standing at some
benches.
And she's actually a great greatgrandmother of him, who was sent
here to tell him stories.
(03:30):
So you're a part of this, thisjourney and you guys all go
together and you learn.
And it's very matter of fact.
It's not your bad, your bad.
It's none of that.
It's here's what happened.
Here's people who did this.
here's how it happened.
So with that lens, You feel moreempathic and engaged as opposed
to feeling attacked.
(03:50):
And, we've done very well so farand we hope to scale it very
soon.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (03:54):
how can people experience, those
stories?
Is that site specific?
Is it, in a headset?
how can people?
Engage with that idea.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (04:04):
So right now you can experience it very
easily if you live inLouisville.
So we did it, in collaborationwith the Unknown Project, the
Fraser Museum, Bernheim Forest.
So there's a lot of, it's verysite specific.
It's using VPS and on, EighthWall, shoutouts to Niantic,
great partners in this.
Shoutouts to Metastage, greatpartners in this.
But, yeah, it's site specificfor now, but we are looking to
(04:25):
expand it so it's, morenationwide.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140120 (04:27):
I mean, the kind of stories that
you talk about are, far fromgimmick, far from, kind of shock
and awe level flash that, AR andVR can sometimes be thought of,
You described, a pretty tensetopic, the history of the slave
trade has some pretty, gruesomedetails to it.
(04:50):
How do you, as somebody who is astrategist on this new form of
storytelling, guide people tobalance between the reality and
the empathy that you cangenerate with 3D and immersive
projects, plus the real, humanlimits and experience, goals?
That, you know, talking about asensitive topic or, you know, a
(05:14):
topic that is full of emotionand history might, how do you
advise balancing those things?
How do you approach stickyproblems like that?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (05:22):
love the question.
You know, one thing to kind ofsoften the blow, so to speak,
was, we use animation.
So we have volumetric capture,which is, you know,
photorealistic actual people,right?
And then it's supplemented, aswe tell these stories, through
kind of a comic esque animation,right?
So You're still seeing Blackpain.
You're still seeing Blacktrauma, but you're seeing it in
(05:45):
a way so it's not, you're notwatching 12 Years a Slave,
because nobody wants to seethat.
great movie, but nobody wants tosee that.
Like, no one's like, oh, I wantto go see a slave film.
No, no one wants to see that,right?
But by nobody wanting to see it,it becomes a topic that's not
discussed, right?
And you know, appropriationhappens, We want to avoid
anything happening like thisagain.
(06:06):
so how do you avoid that if younever talk about it?
that's been kind of thecorrelation.
And look, we worked on this forlike a year and it's definitely
changed me, you know, and I, andwhat I think is a positive way,
I don't know, I might just bejaded and, But realistically
it's one of those things we wantto have that in mind.
We don't want people beingturned off by it because it's so
(06:29):
aggressive.
So we thought animation was avery very short story long
approach of a long answer.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14012 (06:36):
My brain, you've caught my brain's
attention, with this sitespecific storytelling.
Actually, the thing that I wastrying to get to was, tell me
about the choice to have theprimary narrator be like a third
in the story and that the vieweris kind of a secondary
(06:58):
character.
how did that relationship and,as you're thinking about
directorially telling a storylike this, how did you decide
that that was the role for theviewer, the person experiencing
through XR?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (07:10):
Yeah.
And I think so many people makethese experiences and they're
cool, but like this could havebeen seen on a screen, right?
And when it wouldn't do anythingdifferent, right?
So having these moments, like,you got to have seen Henry,
Henry's a great example, right?
Everyone's seen Henry, right?
I assume you have, if youhaven't, go watch Henry, but,
Henry has a moment where he hashis cake and he looks at you.
(07:32):
He breaks that fourth wall andhe looks at you, he makes eye
contact, and it's like, whoa,and you feel it, you know, and
it's not just, I felt it, my momfelt it when I showed her and
everyone else felt it.
So it's like, how do I createthese moments of inclusion?
How do we create these momentsof connectivity?
Because you're already, we canassume you're separated from it,
(07:52):
you know, Black people are only13% of the population..
So there has to be somebody whodoesn't understand what the
plight is, right?
So to have that and connect withyou via that, you had to give
the user a sense of presence.
And that's why we connected thatto, to give that sense of
presence.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (08:10):
you know, I finally caught up.
I think that one of the problemsin the question that I was
trying to get to, right, whichwas, often XR experiences make
the viewer the primarycharacter, right?
And if you do that, that puts aperson like me.
into the potential for being indigital blackface, and that's
(08:32):
probably not a very goodexperience for anybody involved.
a way that you can experiencethe story with the right
players, and have a guide intoit is very important, but in
this particular story, it's kindof a problem to have, Anybody be
that main character.
it's
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (08:50):
And, and, and to, and to your point,
right, correct.
And to your point, Isaac, hisperspective, and I should have
included this earlier, hisperspective is racism doesn't
exist anymore.
He's a black kid who's like,what are you talking about?
It's not MLK days.
He has this thing in his mindthat it's not that big a deal.
So as a black person that youknow, who you're, you play his
(09:14):
best friend, you know, as ablack person, you know, is
coming with this perspective,you feel more comfortable coming
with the perspective.
Like, is it still, cause you maynot know.
It doesn't mean you're racist,it doesn't mean any of that.
You may just not know that it'sstill prominent, right?
But it's easier to consume whensomeone else has your same
potential perspective.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_ (09:34):
There's some, I really appreciate that
attention to like meeting theviewer where they're coming from
and, trying to create a sharedperspective, even though you
don't necessarily.
know, what that perspective is.
so as a storyteller, you know,very juicy for how do you leave
(09:55):
hooks?
How do you open the door forcommon ground?
and it really comes, I thinkfrom some careful consideration
of like, who is the audience?
What do they know?
What do they feel?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (10:09):
Right.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14012 (10:09):
Do you have a specific process or
approach for how you engage withaudiences or potential users
when you're building a projectlike this?
is research and getting to knowthose people part of how you
build?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (10:24):
There's so much research that nobody
will ever understand or see orappreciate.
And it's just these fine detailsand it's like, nope, that Those
shoes wouldn’t have been black.
And it's like, really?
You know, and for, Mamalu, who'sour main character, plays a
griot.
We are Authentic African Sheikfrom an African store in Leimert
Park, and all of this has to beauthentic or it breaks the
(10:48):
illusion.
And I'm not putting my name onanything that could have a
broken illusion.
No, this has to, oh, and thenone person out of a million will
see it and be like, hey, did youthink of, yeah, I did it on
purpose.
And that's the whole reward.
that's the whole reward for it.
But yeah, it's ridiculousamounts of.
Ideation, research, andrevision.
(11:10):
Like I'm still making revisionson the project months after it's
released, because I'm like, Oh,you know what?
That could have sounded better.
What about that ting rightthere?
And I think there was a squirrelin the background and that's
literally it because you have totell the story.
And I'm obsessive when it comesto that, unfortunately.
I wish I wasn't.
I wish I didn't care.
Kind of.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14 (11:27):
Well, let's get into the mind of the
director, the mind of the CEOhere a little bit.
I really love how we dived intothis project and, you know, this
sort of mixed reality work thatyou're doing now.
You alluded at the top thatyou've sort of always worked for
yourself, you've always kind ofbeen a contract, you've always
(11:48):
sort of taken that founder'sapproach.
When did you know, that being afounder was your path?
how did you sort of discoverthat?
And, what keeps you on thattrack?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (12:00):
You know, I came from a single
parent household.
at one point, my mom, who wasmaking great money working for
someone, she got tired of theway she was being treated.
I saw it and I see her come hometired and I see her not have
time to, you have family time,she had to be up ready for work
again, so she still gave metime.
I'm not, she's a great mom, butnot having that time freedom,
(12:24):
you know, your boss calling youhaving to do an assignment, you
having to do these things, youknow, I saw her struggle through
that, and at one point she gaveup and she said, I'm not doing
this anymore.
I'm going to be my own boss.
And she's been her own boss eversince.
And me seeing that grow up, I'mlike, yo, this is crazy.
And I get my work ethic from herand my grandfather, rest his
(12:46):
soul.
And I started my first companywhen I was six.
I was literally pushinglawnmowers.
I had two employees.
I was pushing lawnmowers up anddown the street.
I had two employees, you know,and like the whole thing was,
Hey, look, at the end of theday, can we get hot Cheetos and
Starbursts, you know?
Right.
But I'm bringing in something tobe able to provide for the
family, you know, and I had awhole medical thing when I was
(13:08):
younger, but, I'm like, Oh, Icould do it now.
I could, I can keep doing it,you know, and I was doing
entertainment.
I was writing stories.
I didn't know I was acting.
I didn't know.
I was just having fun.
So to be able to scale that and.
Nothing changed.
You know, I moved out on my taxcheck, 1, 400.
And it's scary as whateverexplicit language you want to
enter.
(13:29):
It's scary, right?
However, I can't see myselfgoing and working for someone
who's going to try to control mytime.
I have a son.
I have a wife.
I owe them my time.
I don't owe this employer mytime.
So that's, that's where itstarted from though.
To see my mom do it and strugglethrough it.
It was, yeah, I knew I had to.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140120 (13:49):
I love it.
One of the reasons, they talkabout, why the most successful
entrepreneurs are serialentrepreneurs.
And it's just, it's not thatthey're successful every time,
but they've done it enough thatthey learn how to make it, how
to build a business, how to getit going, and.
(14:10):
almost like a muscle memory for,how do you identify a problem?
How do you connect with people?
How do you, teach the space?
How do you make things happen?
I find that most people, inaddition to why they start a
business, I can't even begin toimagine, I took the very
opposite route, right?
I had a day job all the time,nonstop until just very
(14:33):
recently.
And, I have to tell you the,there's like a weightlessness
when you don't feel the pressureof that clock, or when you know
that, like, because you're theboss, You're making the best
decisions for the business.
And like, it's nice to have thatlike comfort and lightness,
(14:55):
confidence.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (14:56):
And it's really not comfort, right?
Because as a as a CEO, I workfor my employees, you know,
let's be straightforward atCollimation.
I don't take a salary, you know,I'm working for my employees,
but we haven't accepted a dollarof investor money either, you
know, cause I don't want to messup.
Like you're thinking of allthese lanes and like, I have to
do the best for them.
I can do the best for mycompany, best for my brand, you
(15:17):
know, It's stressful.
These gray hairs, these arecollimation gray hairs.
Between collimation and my son.
These are those, you know, butlike, it's great, but it's not.
Here's a small story.
I had a client who's like,Adrian, I want to do what you
do.
This like eight years ago.
And I'm like, all right.
So I want to quit my job andjust be an entrepreneur.
(15:40):
You should, it's great.
and a week, she quit her job,she quit her job.
She lasted one week and, she hadanother call for a project and
she's like, yeah, I'm, I'm backat work.
And I'm like, oh, I thought youquit.
Yeah, I went back.
Don't let me, don't let me sellyou snake oil.
It's not easy.
But if you find something thatis fulfilling enough, then it's
(16:04):
worth it.
Nathan C (16:04):
One of the questions that I love to ask folks is to
talk about, how you navigatesome of those challenging
decisions, to keep your idea oryour company on track to where
it's going.
have you, are there ways thatyou've learned from your
customers or from your audiencethat, showed you how you need to
(16:27):
change and adjust how do youlearn, from those strong
signals?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (16:31):
Yeah, the biggest thing that I learned
is You're not alone in this.
Use Utilize your team.
You know, and maybe sometimesyour team doesn't fully know
what the heck you're doing orwhat the heck your vision is,
but if they're supporting you,let them support you in their
vertical slice of what you'rebuilding.
(16:52):
And you'd be mad surprised.
I have the best team in theworld.
Not to say that, no one else canbuild and do all these things,
but they get it and they're hereto support the ultimate mission.
So once you have that air,everything else kind of becomes
a lot easier.
And then Don't take discountclients.
And here's why.
we need the money.
Oh, I got my mortgage due on thefirst.
(17:13):
I gotta make this money.
But the clients that are talkingyou down, they're They're going
to give you so much headache.
Because if you think about thepeople who buy from Groupon, and
I buy from Groupon sometimes,They're looking for the best
deal, but they're going to tryto get the best out of you.
And the more you let themsqueeze out of you, that becomes
your standard and what you'reknown as.
Pigeonhole yourself financiallyinto this bracket.
(17:36):
100, 000 client, it's liketransaction sent, a hundred
dollar client is like.
Well, hey, look, can you changethis and this and this and this?
And you're like, I did it for ahundred so I can pay my phone
bill.
But your thinking isn't theirthinking.
So understanding that andfiguring out that relationship
to where you can provide valueover providing money, or they
(17:59):
can provide value to you as aclient as well is very
important.
those two things I live by.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140120 (18:04):
I want to follow up on this.
How do you, as somebody whoworks in kind of a new and
unproven space, how do you put avalue on what things are worth
and how do you, make sure thatyou are charging, what is right,
what is fair for the kind of,experiences that people are
(18:25):
hoping for and that you'retrying to build for folks?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (18:28):
So thank you for this question, because
it's going to give a lot ofcontext to my last statement,
which sounds wild right now, I'msure.
You have to understand thedifference between money, Value.
That's the baseline.
Money is what you're being paidfor something that's cool.
Value is what you're reallygetting.
Right.
So to separate the two, right.
(18:49):
if I wanna buy a car, right?
And this car lot wants acommercial and I want to do a
commercial for'em, right?
Did they have to gimme money?
No.
They're giving me value.
Right, but as a business, as abrand, my first thought is how
do I bring value to you, right?
The money doesn't matter.
You'll never be underpaid foranything because it'll always
come back.
(19:09):
How do I bring value to you?
You know, I've done things withbillion dollar companies where
I've made 500 bucks out of thebudget, right?
I'm providing, I'm gettingvalue.
I'm like, okay, that's marketingspend because the next billion
dollar company is going to say,I have a million dollar budget,
right?
Separating the two and lookingto provide value and to get
(19:30):
value as opposed to looking toprovide a product for money will
separate you and will alwaysgive you a guiding light to
where your projects and yourclients.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14012 (19:39):
Do you also apply that to like, the
value of guiding somebody intoinnovative technologies into XR?
I mean, working inentertainment, in VR, right, the
world of, you know, talentmanagement and engagement into
film production, intovolumetric, there's so many
(20:00):
aspects that, it seems like, thevalue of working with
Collimation is quite there,like, how do you help it, make,
better informed customers?
How do you teach people about,those challenges and the value
of these sort of experimentalideas?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (20:15):
Having a narrative first approach, that's
really it because everybodywants Oh, photorealistic and 8K.
I've talked to so many clientsand I'm talking myself out of
money.
I can give you photorealistic8K, just give me an extra, X
amount of dollars.
Most of them, it's not what theywant.
What they want is a consumerexperience.
That's going to be impactful.
(20:36):
It's going to be sticky.
That's going to have peopletalking about it, social media,
virality, whatever.
Remember Richie's plank was notphotorealistic.
It was not photorealistic, butyou didn't step off the plank.
So, you can't tell me that youraudience needs photorealism to
be attached to the experience.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140 (20:54):
This is such a good example.
Oh my gosh, this is, I'm alwaysbattling, you know, over
resolutioning things justbecause you can make cool
graphics in 3D.
for those who haven't played alot of VR games, Richie's Plank
is a great example.
is a animated walk the plankgame in VR where you put on a
(21:15):
headset, you're put into a worldthat looks like you're on a very
tall building or a number ofother scary places and it's a
test to see like, do you havethe guts to walk?
it makes for fantastic demovideos of people falling to the
ground when, seemingly nothingis, that demo alone does a
(21:35):
really good job of explainingthe potential for a consumer
experience, for a memorableexperience in VR, Adrian, we
got, theoretical, we gottactical, we got into some of
the agency side.
The glow up, right?
for again, for those who may notknow, is a notable
(21:55):
transformation, right?
A rebirth, a coming of age ofsorts.
As somebody who's been workingin innovative storytelling in
quite a while, with a number ofprojects under your belt, what
are you looking to glow up inthe next 6 month or a year?
what sort of big goals do youhave?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (22:13):
You know, the biggest thing that I
call a success, aside fromFootprints was great, and my son
is my biggest success.
Shout out to Academy.
The biggest success I've had wasthis program called Scale Up
Immersive, where I was a co leadand we put together and designed
this whole project and we gave30 companies opportunities to
(22:33):
get into the XR space.
We're focusing on Blackcompanies the Toronto and
Ontario areas, and it's like,oh, wow, this works.
This works.
I've had, mentees tell me thatthey're changing their career
and, I still have conversationwith these students and mentees
to this day.
And I advise them.
(22:55):
So we want to do more of that.
We want to be able to scale thatin a very major way.
I got in through a NBC program,not into XR, but it helped me
get some of these relationships.
So I want to be able to be thatbridge and that catalyst to
really start helping peopleconnect those dots.
that's the glow up for me to beable to do that.
(23:16):
And.
when I died, people said, Hey,look, it's a little better
because he was here.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (23:21):
You mentioned earlier the kinds of,
like, partnerships andcoalitions that it takes to do
bold things.
is there help or, partners,resources that you're looking
for, to help you with thisaudacious goal that you just
shared?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (23:37):
Yes.
we just officially opened ourseed round so bring in money,
please.
this is our fifth year.
We didn't accept a dime of,investor money.
So we want to make sure we'redoing it right.
So, yeah.
we want to start talking toinvestors now.
we have an incredible teamthat's supporting, we want to
meet new partners.
New technology, you know, weare, here for it.
(23:57):
We want to continue to push thisenvelope to keep technology
invisible.
So stories really have thevisibility.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140 (24:03):
Ooh, you just caught me with keep the
technology invisible.
that's like the opposite of whatyou would expect.
Somebody selling 3d holograms,right?
but I want the story to be sogood.
You're not going to notice howyou heard it.
Right.
is like, that's a pretty epic,amazing.
(24:24):
my brain got so excited.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (24:26):
I love moments like this because you
get it.
you understand, you're veryaware, right?
And.
It's rare you get to haveconversations with people who
are aware, who not onlyunderstand the importance of
storytelling, but understand thetechnology, understand what goes
into it, you know, so I'm herefor it, you know, yeah, ask away
please.
Nathan C (24:46):
one of the things that you've been really generous
with, in this conversation isteaching about the black
experience both in history, butalso sort of alluding a little
bit to like what it's like to bea professional, to be in
technology.
And, I, I've sort of watched theebbs and flows of, corporate
(25:06):
conversations around diversity,equity and inclusion.
And, there's often, a trough ofdisillusionment that happens,
right?
Where, companies and initiativeswill sort of Push, women, queer
people, black people to theforefront, to be a scion of
diversity and, hey, won't youcome work with us?
(25:27):
And then, when folks come intothese systems and workplaces and
others, you know, they find,like you said, there's not a lot
of people around that sharetheir experience.
They might have to be teachingdiversity when they thought they
were just going to bedeveloping.
How do you balance, yourempathy, for, your community,
knowing the challenges that ittakes to, make an impact, to get
(25:50):
a seat at the table, to buildthat sort of reputation where
people will listen, how do youapproach, the opportunity and
the risk there, when you'readvising and mentoring?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (26:00):
Well, you know, it's crazy, honestly,
think of how uncomfortable itwas for you to say that with
just thinking, because you'reaware, right?
You don't want to be offensive,but you know, We as people, and
not just Black people, people ingeneral, humans, we have to stop
being so offensive and assumingthat it's, something is because
of something else.
It's so easy to say, oh, this isbecause I'm Black.
(26:22):
It's so easy, and that's such alame excuse.
Now, it does happen.
When it happens, you talk aboutit.
Absolutely.
But to say because I'm Black, orbecause I'm this, or because I'm
that, no, maybe, look, sometimesit's not because you're this,
sometimes you just suck.
You had a moment of Being lessthan perfect.
You had a moment of being human.
(26:43):
Cool.
but to have that mentality whenyou go into a room and say, Oh,
they're going to treat me thisway because I'm this.
You're failing yourself.
That's Be aware of what's aroundyou.
You know, they still look at melike I'm a DEI project and
that's okay.
They can think that.
I don't care because when I walkin the room, I know who Adrian
Rashad Driscoll is.
(27:04):
I'm top 100 because I'm top 100,because I earned this spot, And
it's not just me saying it, youlook it up, So, like, having
that confidence in yourself tosay, Look, I could mess up or I
could be great.
I'm not always great.
It's gonna be huge when it'sactually starting to provoke
(27:28):
change.
Because if you start looking forchange and you're always like,
here's something I look at andpeople don't see it, like the
DEI programs, right?
The DEI programs sucked.
Most of them sucked.
You know why?
Because you have someone whodoesn't identify with the
problem telling you solutionsfor the problem.
(27:50):
You have to help people how theyneed to be helped.
Okay?
You gave me a glass of water.
Thank you.
You feel good.
I gave you a glass of water.
Well, guess what?
I was drowning.
That didn't help me how I neededto be helped.
You thought you were doingsomething good to help me, but
you didn't help me.
You didn't meet me where I was.
What I needed was a rope.
(28:10):
You're like, a rope's not goingto quench your thirst.
You don't understand, you know,but you have so many people that
I'm drowning are like, well, Ican't give you a rope because
that could be insensitive toblack people.
And it's like, oh, okay, wellnow I drowned.
You know, that's that's theproblem.
That's the problem.
People consider themselves wokeand they say, I can't say this.
(28:32):
They won't have a conversationto understand why they feel they
can't say this.
They just feel they can't saythis.
That's why it doesn't translate.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140120 (28:40):
I love this idea that the
assumption that you have anysense of what is going on with
any people, with anybody, justin general, it is like, that's
pretty bold.
We are complex people.
there are so many ways that wecan, have different perspectives
on similar things and, I findwith just cycles around the sun,
(29:04):
that adage of you really don'tknow what other people are
battling, we're generally not asfar away, from each other as we
think.
We think we might be.
I, I think is, are easy ways toget back to center.
There's something, you know, I'malways working in technology
thinking about, you know, agileand like this idea of constantly
(29:25):
learning, right?
Like in most, most success islike, can you learn from
learnings as cheap as possible?
That is, how you eventuallysucceed in business, and, what
I'm hearing from you is, thisencouragement to be a little bit
more patient, and, to be alittle bit more, focused on
(29:50):
meeting people, where they maybe, and seeing how you can,
Engage and learn and grow evenwhen, programs stink or,
interpersonal, tensions are at apeak, that there's always a way
to get in there.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (30:06):
Because not everybody wants you to do
bad.
not everybody wants bad of you,not everybody assumes bad of
you.
And when you attack thesesituations with a cookie cutter
mindset, you take away from theactual problems.
Because now they can't beapproached because you're
telling everyone they're wrongbecause of your past traumas, as
opposed to analyzing saidtrauma.
(30:27):
Just say, Hey, look, here wasthe genesis of it.
Here's how we fix it.
now everyone has to have thesame mindset and we're too
complex as people.
It just doesn't work like that.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (30:37):
So, I could go on this track forever
and we'll find the right placefor all these things to go into.
Well, I'm sitting here lookingat my notes and that we're 40
minutes into this conversationand what you had marked on what
we were going to talk about wascreating more accessible
concerts and we haven't talkedabout more accessible content at
(31:00):
all.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (31:01):
I'm
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14012 (31:01):
do you got a few minutes to talk,
to get into accessible content?
this is actually kind of a spacethat I'm very interested in
lately because it seems likethere's a whole new group of
storytellers that have decidedthat for some reason or another,
that VR is a great place To gosee shows.
(31:23):
what about, like, game worldsand VR and, these interesting
camera angles?
What makes this such acompelling storytelling medium?
And how can XR make concertsmore accessible?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (31:38):
You know, I love the opportunity to
tell a story during, and there'sa story being told through most
concerts, right?
You know, you have lights anddah, dah, dah, and the story is
very simple.
You know, everyone's coming hereto have a good time, right?
But for me to be able to connectwith an artist and tell a story
to their audience that theiraudience may not have been able
(32:00):
to have before, or they may nothave had enough money to build
using raw, you know, rawmaterials, That's special.
You know, the thing we did withRapsody, that was special.
We got to tell her story.
We got to build an environmentfor her.
The thing we did with, the GUSubway, like being able to tell
this story in an impactful way,it's magical in itself, but then
saying, look, this 2, 500 ticketI can give to you for 20 bucks
(32:24):
and you can still feel likeyou're there.
That's magic.
That's oof.
You know?
So that's, that's been our goal.
we want to give you the energyof a mega concert, but still
have the intimacy of an MTVunplugged.
And that's been our approach,
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (32:38):
One of the things I've really been
struck by is like the betterthan front row kind of
experience that you can get, ina VR concert, you know, just
the, by nature of the content,it has to be kind of close to
you.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (32:55):
Sure.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140 (32:55):
that you, you know, to get cameras in
the right place and all that,like, things start to really,
have an intimacy, but likeyou're saying, can have that
scale of kind of experience orflash.
You can build sets that are kindof like Tomorrowland without
needing a multi million dollarbudget.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (33:15):
Right.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14 (33:16):
When,
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (33:16):
that's what it is.
you're building Disney parks ina music experience.
how could you not love that?
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14 (33:22):
yeah, how do artists So, how do
artists, interact to the kind ofwork that you do when they see
it for the first time?
Like, do you have to explain itor do you have to, like, corral
them in?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (33:35):
The only way to explain it is to show it.
Like, this is one of thosethings that's like, I can give
you all the 2D videos in theworld.
But yeah, you know, you gottasee this.
You know, and for our artists,we always try to make
technology, again, invisible,right?
I'm not putting you in a mo capsuit.
I'm not putting you in a 3D facescanner.
(33:56):
Why?
Right?
Because that's not what you'reused to.
I'm gonna let you be how youare, because if you're in your
natural element, you're givingthe energy to your crowd that
they expect, instead of saying,hey, look, put on a mo cap suit.
And, you know, it's like, whatare you trying to, get radio
frequency?
Like, what are you doing?
I don't know.
it doesn't work the same.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140120 (34:12):
I love it.
you've mentioned twice now, thisidea of, When you're trying to
do something creative, right?
You got to trust your team fortheir strengths.
You got to lean in to what thatartist is good at, right?
Like don't.
over engineer a project to getit away from the core strengths
(34:35):
of the content, of the vision ofthe creators.
it's so key, right?
Like, just literally, stick withthe strengths, hire good people
for what they do.
You can make really dope stuff.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (34:47):
That's it.
You should be trying to taketechnology out of every project,
not put it in.
Your goal should be to strip theproject down to what's the most
delicious cut right here andstrip out all the other
technology.
make it as minimalistic aspossible when you're making an
experience.
Always.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14 (35:05):
feels like we let the folks in Vegas
determine what, like, experiencedesign should be And everybody
got this sense that, like, ifit's not an eight foot blinking
screen, it's not a greatexperience.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (35:16):
Right.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (35:17):
But I'm with you, right?
Like, I always talk about takingthe right bite of innovation.
Adrian Rashad Drisc (35:22):
Absolutely.
I like the right bite.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (35:24):
The right bite of innovation,
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (35:27):
Yeah, that's fire.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-20 (35:28):
copyright, awesome future.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (35:30):
Yeah, yeah.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_ (35:32):
Adrian, it has been such a fantastic
time chatting with you.
I'm always inspired by theambition and focus, that you
bring to your work.
the sense of purpose that Ihear, in what you do is just, so
cool to see in a founder.
And I think every founder outthere is probably a little
(35:53):
envious of, thank you forsharing your perspectives on,
storytelling and takingtechnology out of the mix.
I've learned so much with you onthe Glow Up
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (36:04):
I appreciate you, Nathan.
We all have a part to play andI'm happy to be a small part of
something big..
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14 (36:08):
Same.
Thank you so much.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (36:10):
Always fun chatting with you.
if I go mute, it's just because I'm trying to be
respectful.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (00:03):
I appreciate it, but it's a
conversation, you know, and so,like, we're meant to, step on a
line.
I'm very verbose sometimes, andit's like, Adrian, shut up, you
know.
So, like, that should be theentrance of everyone.
Adrian, shut up.
That should be the soundbite.
Nathan C (00:20):
been using this kind of banter as the intro to the
show, so we'll probably justleave it in.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (00:26):
I love it.
Nathan C (00:28):
Hello! Hello and welcome to the Glow Up! Fabulous
Conversations with InnovativeMinds.
Today, I have the distinctpleasure of chatting with Adrian
Rashad Driscoll, CEO ofCollimation and doer of many
things in the worlds of art andXR.
Adrian so good to see you.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (00:48):
Peace.
Happy to be here.
Nathan C (00:50):
Amazing.
So great to have you on The GlowUp.
first off, you are somebody whodoes a lot in the world of
spatial computing and art andmusic.
Could you introduce yourself alittle bit and maybe, try to
hint at, some of the origins toyour work in innovative
technologies?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (01:08):
Okay, yeah, that's a big question.
peace everybody, Adrian RashadDriscoll.
I am a top 100 XR expert,storyteller first.
that just means I'm a nerd thatlikes to tell stories.
Sometimes I use a headset.
Um, yeah, you understand, yeah,you're on the same page.
But, yeah, I've been in XR for12 years now.
I started out with a companycalled Oculus.
(01:28):
And I fell in love with theability to tell certain stories.
you know, I, I've always been a,I, I've never had a job, so I
wasn't working for Oculus.
I was a contractor.
I've never had a job in my life.
but what, well, I'm not surewe'll dive into that, but, yeah,
I was a contractor there.
I fell in love with thestorytelling ability, and then I
was so heartbroken that nobodywas using it.
(01:49):
Not nobody, but most people wereusing it as a gimmick as opposed
to creating impactful andengaging and empathic stories.
So I use that leverage and Istarted telling my story through
the medium.
And now I try to get rid ofpeople using tech for tech sake.
I tell people and I tellcompanies and brands, how do you
leverage this technologywithout, you know, without
(02:11):
making friction with having ithave an actual impact for you
and your users?
Nathan C (02:15):
So, are you able to share some examples of maybe one
of your favorite stories thatyou've been able to tell, with
VR technologies?
Adrian Rashad Drisc (02:25):
Absolutely.
the most impactful andcompletely my favorite story so
far is Footprints Through Time.
You know, we used volumetriccapture, mixed with augmented
reality to tell the stories ofthe transatlantic slave trade.
And although most peoplewouldn't believe it, racism is
still very prominent.
In America, you know, I've, I'vebeen called a lot of things this
(02:49):
year that I shouldn't have beencalled, you know, so it's, it's
surprising to people who don'tunderstand it, but you can't
have.
You can't just go and yell atpeople, say, Oh, you're bad.
Cause you're white.
And it's like, wait, what?
You know?
So the goal is always to createempathy, to create understanding
and create conversations.
You have a young boy, not young.
He's 18, but I'm old.
(03:10):
So he's young to me, but, youknow, we got this kid who is
with his best friend and that'swho you play.
You play his best friend.
And he sees this woman, this oldwoman, just standing at some
benches.
And she's actually a great greatgrandmother of him, who was sent
here to tell him stories.
(03:30):
So you're a part of this, thisjourney and you guys all go
together and you learn.
And it's very matter of fact.
It's not your bad, your bad.
It's none of that.
It's here's what happened.
Here's people who did this.
here's how it happened.
So with that lens, You feel moreempathic and engaged as opposed
to feeling attacked.
(03:50):
And, we've done very well so farand we hope to scale it very
soon.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (03:54):
how can people experience, those
stories?
Is that site specific?
Is it, in a headset?
how can people?
Engage with that idea.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (04:04):
So right now you can experience it very
easily if you live inLouisville.
So we did it, in collaborationwith the Unknown Project, the
Fraser Museum, Bernheim Forest.
So there's a lot of, it's verysite specific.
It's using VPS and on, EighthWall, shoutouts to Niantic,
great partners in this.
Shoutouts to Metastage, greatpartners in this.
But, yeah, it's site specificfor now, but we are looking to
(04:25):
expand it so it's, morenationwide.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140120 (04:27):
I mean, the kind of stories that
you talk about are, far fromgimmick, far from, kind of shock
and awe level flash that, AR andVR can sometimes be thought of,
You described, a pretty tensetopic, the history of the slave
trade has some pretty, gruesomedetails to it.
(04:50):
How do you, as somebody who is astrategist on this new form of
storytelling, guide people tobalance between the reality and
the empathy that you cangenerate with 3D and immersive
projects, plus the real, humanlimits and experience, goals?
That, you know, talking about asensitive topic or, you know, a
(05:14):
topic that is full of emotionand history might, how do you
advise balancing those things?
How do you approach stickyproblems like that?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (05:22):
love the question.
You know, one thing to kind ofsoften the blow, so to speak,
was, we use animation.
So we have volumetric capture,which is, you know,
photorealistic actual people,right?
And then it's supplemented, aswe tell these stories, through
kind of a comic esque animation,right?
So You're still seeing Blackpain.
You're still seeing Blacktrauma, but you're seeing it in
(05:45):
a way so it's not, you're notwatching 12 Years a Slave,
because nobody wants to seethat.
great movie, but nobody wants tosee that.
Like, no one's like, oh, I wantto go see a slave film.
No, no one wants to see that,right?
But by nobody wanting to see it,it becomes a topic that's not
discussed, right?
And you know, appropriationhappens, We want to avoid
anything happening like thisagain.
(06:06):
so how do you avoid that if younever talk about it?
that's been kind of thecorrelation.
And look, we worked on this forlike a year and it's definitely
changed me, you know, and I, andwhat I think is a positive way,
I don't know, I might just bejaded and, But realistically
it's one of those things we wantto have that in mind.
We don't want people beingturned off by it because it's so
(06:29):
aggressive.
So we thought animation was avery very short story long
approach of a long answer.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14012 (06:36):
My brain, you've caught my brain's
attention, with this sitespecific storytelling.
Actually, the thing that I wastrying to get to was, tell me
about the choice to have theprimary narrator be like a third
in the story and that the vieweris kind of a secondary
(06:58):
character.
how did that relationship and,as you're thinking about
directorially telling a storylike this, how did you decide
that that was the role for theviewer, the person experiencing
through XR?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (07:10):
Yeah.
And I think so many people makethese experiences and they're
cool, but like this could havebeen seen on a screen, right?
And when it wouldn't do anythingdifferent, right?
So having these moments, like,you got to have seen Henry,
Henry's a great example, right?
Everyone's seen Henry, right?
I assume you have, if youhaven't, go watch Henry, but,
Henry has a moment where he hashis cake and he looks at you.
(07:32):
He breaks that fourth wall andhe looks at you, he makes eye
contact, and it's like, whoa,and you feel it, you know, and
it's not just, I felt it, my momfelt it when I showed her and
everyone else felt it.
So it's like, how do I createthese moments of inclusion?
How do we create these momentsof connectivity?
Because you're already, we canassume you're separated from it,
(07:52):
you know, Black people are only13% of the population..
So there has to be somebody whodoesn't understand what the
plight is, right?
So to have that and connect withyou via that, you had to give
the user a sense of presence.
And that's why we connected thatto, to give that sense of
presence.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (08:10):
you know, I finally caught up.
I think that one of the problemsin the question that I was
trying to get to, right, whichwas, often XR experiences make
the viewer the primarycharacter, right?
And if you do that, that puts aperson like me.
into the potential for being indigital blackface, and that's
(08:32):
probably not a very goodexperience for anybody involved.
a way that you can experiencethe story with the right
players, and have a guide intoit is very important, but in
this particular story, it's kindof a problem to have, Anybody be
that main character.
it's
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (08:50):
And, and, and to, and to your point,
right, correct.
And to your point, Isaac, hisperspective, and I should have
included this earlier, hisperspective is racism doesn't
exist anymore.
He's a black kid who's like,what are you talking about?
It's not MLK days.
He has this thing in his mindthat it's not that big a deal.
So as a black person that youknow, who you're, you play his
(09:14):
best friend, you know, as ablack person, you know, is
coming with this perspective,you feel more comfortable coming
with the perspective.
Like, is it still, cause you maynot know.
It doesn't mean you're racist,it doesn't mean any of that.
You may just not know that it'sstill prominent, right?
But it's easier to consume whensomeone else has your same
potential perspective.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_ (09:34):
There's some, I really appreciate that
attention to like meeting theviewer where they're coming from
and, trying to create a sharedperspective, even though you
don't necessarily.
know, what that perspective is.
so as a storyteller, you know,very juicy for how do you leave
(09:55):
hooks?
How do you open the door forcommon ground?
and it really comes, I thinkfrom some careful consideration
of like, who is the audience?
What do they know?
What do they feel?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (10:09):
Right.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14012 (10:09):
Do you have a specific process or
approach for how you engage withaudiences or potential users
when you're building a projectlike this?
is research and getting to knowthose people part of how you
build?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (10:24):
There's so much research that nobody
will ever understand or see orappreciate.
And it's just these fine detailsand it's like, nope, that Those
shoes wouldn’t have been black.
And it's like, really?
You know, and for, Mamalu, who'sour main character, plays a
griot.
We are Authentic African Sheikfrom an African store in Leimert
Park, and all of this has to beauthentic or it breaks the
(10:48):
illusion.
And I'm not putting my name onanything that could have a
broken illusion.
No, this has to, oh, and thenone person out of a million will
see it and be like, hey, did youthink of, yeah, I did it on
purpose.
And that's the whole reward.
that's the whole reward for it.
But yeah, it's ridiculousamounts of.
Ideation, research, andrevision.
(11:10):
Like I'm still making revisionson the project months after it's
released, because I'm like, Oh,you know what?
That could have sounded better.
What about that ting rightthere?
And I think there was a squirrelin the background and that's
literally it because you have totell the story.
And I'm obsessive when it comesto that, unfortunately.
I wish I wasn't.
I wish I didn't care.
Kind of.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14 (11:27):
Well, let's get into the mind of the
director, the mind of the CEOhere a little bit.
I really love how we dived intothis project and, you know, this
sort of mixed reality work thatyou're doing now.
You alluded at the top thatyou've sort of always worked for
yourself, you've always kind ofbeen a contract, you've always
(11:48):
sort of taken that founder'sapproach.
When did you know, that being afounder was your path?
how did you sort of discoverthat?
And, what keeps you on thattrack?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (12:00):
You know, I came from a single
parent household.
at one point, my mom, who wasmaking great money working for
someone, she got tired of theway she was being treated.
I saw it and I see her come hometired and I see her not have
time to, you have family time,she had to be up ready for work
again, so she still gave metime.
I'm not, she's a great mom, butnot having that time freedom,
(12:24):
you know, your boss calling youhaving to do an assignment, you
having to do these things, youknow, I saw her struggle through
that, and at one point she gaveup and she said, I'm not doing
this anymore.
I'm going to be my own boss.
And she's been her own boss eversince.
And me seeing that grow up, I'mlike, yo, this is crazy.
And I get my work ethic from herand my grandfather, rest his
(12:46):
soul.
And I started my first companywhen I was six.
I was literally pushinglawnmowers.
I had two employees.
I was pushing lawnmowers up anddown the street.
I had two employees, you know,and like the whole thing was,
Hey, look, at the end of theday, can we get hot Cheetos and
Starbursts, you know?
Right.
But I'm bringing in something tobe able to provide for the
family, you know, and I had awhole medical thing when I was
(13:08):
younger, but, I'm like, Oh, Icould do it now.
I could, I can keep doing it,you know, and I was doing
entertainment.
I was writing stories.
I didn't know I was acting.
I didn't know.
I was just having fun.
So to be able to scale that and.
Nothing changed.
You know, I moved out on my taxcheck, 1, 400.
And it's scary as whateverexplicit language you want to
enter.
(13:29):
It's scary, right?
However, I can't see myselfgoing and working for someone
who's going to try to control mytime.
I have a son.
I have a wife.
I owe them my time.
I don't owe this employer mytime.
So that's, that's where itstarted from though.
To see my mom do it and strugglethrough it.
It was, yeah, I knew I had to.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140120 (13:49):
I love it.
One of the reasons, they talkabout, why the most successful
entrepreneurs are serialentrepreneurs.
And it's just, it's not thatthey're successful every time,
but they've done it enough thatthey learn how to make it, how
to build a business, how to getit going, and.
(14:10):
almost like a muscle memory for,how do you identify a problem?
How do you connect with people?
How do you, teach the space?
How do you make things happen?
I find that most people, inaddition to why they start a
business, I can't even begin toimagine, I took the very
opposite route, right?
I had a day job all the time,nonstop until just very
(14:33):
recently.
And, I have to tell you the,there's like a weightlessness
when you don't feel the pressureof that clock, or when you know
that, like, because you're theboss, You're making the best
decisions for the business.
And like, it's nice to have thatlike comfort and lightness,
(14:55):
confidence.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (14:56):
And it's really not comfort, right?
Because as a as a CEO, I workfor my employees, you know,
let's be straightforward atCollimation.
I don't take a salary, you know,I'm working for my employees,
but we haven't accepted a dollarof investor money either, you
know, cause I don't want to messup.
Like you're thinking of allthese lanes and like, I have to
do the best for them.
I can do the best for mycompany, best for my brand, you
(15:17):
know, It's stressful.
These gray hairs, these arecollimation gray hairs.
Between collimation and my son.
These are those, you know, butlike, it's great, but it's not.
Here's a small story.
I had a client who's like,Adrian, I want to do what you
do.
This like eight years ago.
And I'm like, all right.
So I want to quit my job andjust be an entrepreneur.
(15:40):
You should, it's great.
and a week, she quit her job,she quit her job.
She lasted one week and, she hadanother call for a project and
she's like, yeah, I'm, I'm backat work.
And I'm like, oh, I thought youquit.
Yeah, I went back.
Don't let me, don't let me sellyou snake oil.
It's not easy.
But if you find something thatis fulfilling enough, then it's
(16:04):
worth it.
Nathan C (16:04):
One of the questions that I love to ask folks is to
talk about, how you navigatesome of those challenging
decisions, to keep your idea oryour company on track to where
it's going.
have you, are there ways thatyou've learned from your
customers or from your audiencethat, showed you how you need to
(16:27):
change and adjust how do youlearn, from those strong
signals?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (16:31):
Yeah, the biggest thing that I learned
is You're not alone in this.
Use Utilize your team.
You know, and maybe sometimesyour team doesn't fully know
what the heck you're doing orwhat the heck your vision is,
but if they're supporting you,let them support you in their
vertical slice of what you'rebuilding.
(16:52):
And you'd be mad surprised.
I have the best team in theworld.
Not to say that, no one else canbuild and do all these things,
but they get it and they're hereto support the ultimate mission.
So once you have that air,everything else kind of becomes
a lot easier.
And then Don't take discountclients.
And here's why.
we need the money.
Oh, I got my mortgage due on thefirst.
(17:13):
I gotta make this money.
But the clients that are talkingyou down, they're They're going
to give you so much headache.
Because if you think about thepeople who buy from Groupon, and
I buy from Groupon sometimes,They're looking for the best
deal, but they're going to tryto get the best out of you.
And the more you let themsqueeze out of you, that becomes
your standard and what you'reknown as.
Pigeonhole yourself financiallyinto this bracket.
(17:36):
100, 000 client, it's liketransaction sent, a hundred
dollar client is like.
Well, hey, look, can you changethis and this and this and this?
And you're like, I did it for ahundred so I can pay my phone
bill.
But your thinking isn't theirthinking.
So understanding that andfiguring out that relationship
to where you can provide valueover providing money, or they
(17:59):
can provide value to you as aclient as well is very
important.
those two things I live by.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140120 (18:04):
I want to follow up on this.
How do you, as somebody whoworks in kind of a new and
unproven space, how do you put avalue on what things are worth
and how do you, make sure thatyou are charging, what is right,
what is fair for the kind of,experiences that people are
(18:25):
hoping for and that you'retrying to build for folks?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (18:28):
So thank you for this question, because
it's going to give a lot ofcontext to my last statement,
which sounds wild right now, I'msure.
You have to understand thedifference between money, Value.
That's the baseline.
Money is what you're being paidfor something that's cool.
Value is what you're reallygetting.
Right.
So to separate the two, right.
(18:49):
if I wanna buy a car, right?
And this car lot wants acommercial and I want to do a
commercial for'em, right?
Did they have to gimme money?
No.
They're giving me value.
Right, but as a business, as abrand, my first thought is how
do I bring value to you, right?
The money doesn't matter.
You'll never be underpaid foranything because it'll always
come back.
(19:09):
How do I bring value to you?
You know, I've done things withbillion dollar companies where
I've made 500 bucks out of thebudget, right?
I'm providing, I'm gettingvalue.
I'm like, okay, that's marketingspend because the next billion
dollar company is going to say,I have a million dollar budget,
right?
Separating the two and lookingto provide value and to get
(19:30):
value as opposed to looking toprovide a product for money will
separate you and will alwaysgive you a guiding light to
where your projects and yourclients.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14012 (19:39):
Do you also apply that to like, the
value of guiding somebody intoinnovative technologies into XR?
I mean, working inentertainment, in VR, right, the
world of, you know, talentmanagement and engagement into
film production, intovolumetric, there's so many
(20:00):
aspects that, it seems like, thevalue of working with
Collimation is quite there,like, how do you help it, make,
better informed customers?
How do you teach people about,those challenges and the value
of these sort of experimentalideas?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (20:15):
Having a narrative first approach, that's
really it because everybodywants Oh, photorealistic and 8K.
I've talked to so many clientsand I'm talking myself out of
money.
I can give you photorealistic8K, just give me an extra, X
amount of dollars.
Most of them, it's not what theywant.
What they want is a consumerexperience.
That's going to be impactful.
(20:36):
It's going to be sticky.
That's going to have peopletalking about it, social media,
virality, whatever.
Remember Richie's plank was notphotorealistic.
It was not photorealistic, butyou didn't step off the plank.
So, you can't tell me that youraudience needs photorealism to
be attached to the experience.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140 (20:54):
This is such a good example.
Oh my gosh, this is, I'm alwaysbattling, you know, over
resolutioning things justbecause you can make cool
graphics in 3D.
for those who haven't played alot of VR games, Richie's Plank
is a great example.
is a animated walk the plankgame in VR where you put on a
(21:15):
headset, you're put into a worldthat looks like you're on a very
tall building or a number ofother scary places and it's a
test to see like, do you havethe guts to walk?
it makes for fantastic demovideos of people falling to the
ground when, seemingly nothingis, that demo alone does a
(21:35):
really good job of explainingthe potential for a consumer
experience, for a memorableexperience in VR, Adrian, we
got, theoretical, we gottactical, we got into some of
the agency side.
The glow up, right?
for again, for those who may notknow, is a notable
(21:55):
transformation, right?
A rebirth, a coming of age ofsorts.
As somebody who's been workingin innovative storytelling in
quite a while, with a number ofprojects under your belt, what
are you looking to glow up inthe next 6 month or a year?
what sort of big goals do youhave?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (22:13):
You know, the biggest thing that I
call a success, aside fromFootprints was great, and my son
is my biggest success.
Shout out to Academy.
The biggest success I've had wasthis program called Scale Up
Immersive, where I was a co leadand we put together and designed
this whole project and we gave30 companies opportunities to
(22:33):
get into the XR space.
We're focusing on Blackcompanies the Toronto and
Ontario areas, and it's like,oh, wow, this works.
This works.
I've had, mentees tell me thatthey're changing their career
and, I still have conversationwith these students and mentees
to this day.
And I advise them.
(22:55):
So we want to do more of that.
We want to be able to scale thatin a very major way.
I got in through a NBC program,not into XR, but it helped me
get some of these relationships.
So I want to be able to be thatbridge and that catalyst to
really start helping peopleconnect those dots.
that's the glow up for me to beable to do that.
(23:16):
And.
when I died, people said, Hey,look, it's a little better
because he was here.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (23:21):
You mentioned earlier the kinds of,
like, partnerships andcoalitions that it takes to do
bold things.
is there help or, partners,resources that you're looking
for, to help you with thisaudacious goal that you just
shared?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (23:37):
Yes.
we just officially opened ourseed round so bring in money,
please.
this is our fifth year.
We didn't accept a dime of,investor money.
So we want to make sure we'redoing it right.
So, yeah.
we want to start talking toinvestors now.
we have an incredible teamthat's supporting, we want to
meet new partners.
New technology, you know, weare, here for it.
(23:57):
We want to continue to push thisenvelope to keep technology
invisible.
So stories really have thevisibility.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140 (24:03):
Ooh, you just caught me with keep the
technology invisible.
that's like the opposite of whatyou would expect.
Somebody selling 3d holograms,right?
but I want the story to be sogood.
You're not going to notice howyou heard it.
Right.
is like, that's a pretty epic,amazing.
(24:24):
my brain got so excited.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (24:26):
I love moments like this because you
get it.
you understand, you're veryaware, right?
And.
It's rare you get to haveconversations with people who
are aware, who not onlyunderstand the importance of
storytelling, but understand thetechnology, understand what goes
into it, you know, so I'm herefor it, you know, yeah, ask away
please.
Nathan C (24:46):
one of the things that you've been really generous
with, in this conversation isteaching about the black
experience both in history, butalso sort of alluding a little
bit to like what it's like to bea professional, to be in
technology.
And, I, I've sort of watched theebbs and flows of, corporate
(25:06):
conversations around diversity,equity and inclusion.
And, there's often, a trough ofdisillusionment that happens,
right?
Where, companies and initiativeswill sort of Push, women, queer
people, black people to theforefront, to be a scion of
diversity and, hey, won't youcome work with us?
(25:27):
And then, when folks come intothese systems and workplaces and
others, you know, they find,like you said, there's not a lot
of people around that sharetheir experience.
They might have to be teachingdiversity when they thought they
were just going to bedeveloping.
How do you balance, yourempathy, for, your community,
knowing the challenges that ittakes to, make an impact, to get
(25:50):
a seat at the table, to buildthat sort of reputation where
people will listen, how do youapproach, the opportunity and
the risk there, when you'readvising and mentoring?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (26:00):
Well, you know, it's crazy, honestly,
think of how uncomfortable itwas for you to say that with
just thinking, because you'reaware, right?
You don't want to be offensive,but you know, We as people, and
not just Black people, people ingeneral, humans, we have to stop
being so offensive and assumingthat it's, something is because
of something else.
It's so easy to say, oh, this isbecause I'm Black.
(26:22):
It's so easy, and that's such alame excuse.
Now, it does happen.
When it happens, you talk aboutit.
Absolutely.
But to say because I'm Black, orbecause I'm this, or because I'm
that, no, maybe, look, sometimesit's not because you're this,
sometimes you just suck.
You had a moment of Being lessthan perfect.
You had a moment of being human.
(26:43):
Cool.
but to have that mentality whenyou go into a room and say, Oh,
they're going to treat me thisway because I'm this.
You're failing yourself.
That's Be aware of what's aroundyou.
You know, they still look at melike I'm a DEI project and
that's okay.
They can think that.
I don't care because when I walkin the room, I know who Adrian
Rashad Driscoll is.
(27:04):
I'm top 100 because I'm top 100,because I earned this spot, And
it's not just me saying it, youlook it up, So, like, having
that confidence in yourself tosay, Look, I could mess up or I
could be great.
I'm not always great.
It's gonna be huge when it'sactually starting to provoke
(27:28):
change.
Because if you start looking forchange and you're always like,
here's something I look at andpeople don't see it, like the
DEI programs, right?
The DEI programs sucked.
Most of them sucked.
You know why?
Because you have someone whodoesn't identify with the
problem telling you solutionsfor the problem.
(27:50):
You have to help people how theyneed to be helped.
Okay?
You gave me a glass of water.
Thank you.
You feel good.
I gave you a glass of water.
Well, guess what?
I was drowning.
That didn't help me how I neededto be helped.
You thought you were doingsomething good to help me, but
you didn't help me.
You didn't meet me where I was.
What I needed was a rope.
(28:10):
You're like, a rope's not goingto quench your thirst.
You don't understand, you know,but you have so many people that
I'm drowning are like, well, Ican't give you a rope because
that could be insensitive toblack people.
And it's like, oh, okay, wellnow I drowned.
You know, that's that's theproblem.
That's the problem.
People consider themselves wokeand they say, I can't say this.
(28:32):
They won't have a conversationto understand why they feel they
can't say this.
They just feel they can't saythis.
That's why it doesn't translate.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140120 (28:40):
I love this idea that the
assumption that you have anysense of what is going on with
any people, with anybody, justin general, it is like, that's
pretty bold.
We are complex people.
there are so many ways that wecan, have different perspectives
on similar things and, I findwith just cycles around the sun,
(29:04):
that adage of you really don'tknow what other people are
battling, we're generally not asfar away, from each other as we
think.
We think we might be.
I, I think is, are easy ways toget back to center.
There's something, you know, I'malways working in technology
thinking about, you know, agileand like this idea of constantly
(29:25):
learning, right?
Like in most, most success islike, can you learn from
learnings as cheap as possible?
That is, how you eventuallysucceed in business, and, what
I'm hearing from you is, thisencouragement to be a little bit
more patient, and, to be alittle bit more, focused on
(29:50):
meeting people, where they maybe, and seeing how you can,
Engage and learn and grow evenwhen, programs stink or,
interpersonal, tensions are at apeak, that there's always a way
to get in there.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (30:06):
Because not everybody wants you to do
bad.
not everybody wants bad of you,not everybody assumes bad of
you.
And when you attack thesesituations with a cookie cutter
mindset, you take away from theactual problems.
Because now they can't beapproached because you're
telling everyone they're wrongbecause of your past traumas, as
opposed to analyzing saidtrauma.
(30:27):
Just say, Hey, look, here wasthe genesis of it.
Here's how we fix it.
now everyone has to have thesame mindset and we're too
complex as people.
It just doesn't work like that.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (30:37):
So, I could go on this track forever
and we'll find the right placefor all these things to go into.
Well, I'm sitting here lookingat my notes and that we're 40
minutes into this conversationand what you had marked on what
we were going to talk about wascreating more accessible
concerts and we haven't talkedabout more accessible content at
(31:00):
all.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (31:01):
I'm
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14012 (31:01):
do you got a few minutes to talk,
to get into accessible content?
this is actually kind of a spacethat I'm very interested in
lately because it seems likethere's a whole new group of
storytellers that have decidedthat for some reason or another,
that VR is a great place To gosee shows.
(31:23):
what about, like, game worldsand VR and, these interesting
camera angles?
What makes this such acompelling storytelling medium?
And how can XR make concertsmore accessible?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (31:38):
You know, I love the opportunity to
tell a story during, and there'sa story being told through most
concerts, right?
You know, you have lights anddah, dah, dah, and the story is
very simple.
You know, everyone's coming hereto have a good time, right?
But for me to be able to connectwith an artist and tell a story
to their audience that theiraudience may not have been able
(32:00):
to have before, or they may nothave had enough money to build
using raw, you know, rawmaterials, That's special.
You know, the thing we did withRapsody, that was special.
We got to tell her story.
We got to build an environmentfor her.
The thing we did with, the GUSubway, like being able to tell
this story in an impactful way,it's magical in itself, but then
saying, look, this 2, 500 ticketI can give to you for 20 bucks
(32:24):
and you can still feel likeyou're there.
That's magic.
That's oof.
You know?
So that's, that's been our goal.
we want to give you the energyof a mega concert, but still
have the intimacy of an MTVunplugged.
And that's been our approach,
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (32:38):
One of the things I've really been
struck by is like the betterthan front row kind of
experience that you can get, ina VR concert, you know, just
the, by nature of the content,it has to be kind of close to
you.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (32:55):
Sure.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140 (32:55):
that you, you know, to get cameras in
the right place and all that,like, things start to really,
have an intimacy, but likeyou're saying, can have that
scale of kind of experience orflash.
You can build sets that are kindof like Tomorrowland without
needing a multi million dollarbudget.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (33:15):
Right.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14 (33:16):
When,
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (33:16):
that's what it is.
you're building Disney parks ina music experience.
how could you not love that?
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14 (33:22):
yeah, how do artists So, how do
artists, interact to the kind ofwork that you do when they see
it for the first time?
Like, do you have to explain itor do you have to, like, corral
them in?
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (33:35):
The only way to explain it is to show it.
Like, this is one of thosethings that's like, I can give
you all the 2D videos in theworld.
But yeah, you know, you gottasee this.
You know, and for our artists,we always try to make
technology, again, invisible,right?
I'm not putting you in a mo capsuit.
I'm not putting you in a 3D facescanner.
(33:56):
Why?
Right?
Because that's not what you'reused to.
I'm gonna let you be how youare, because if you're in your
natural element, you're givingthe energy to your crowd that
they expect, instead of saying,hey, look, put on a mo cap suit.
And, you know, it's like, whatare you trying to, get radio
frequency?
Like, what are you doing?
I don't know.
it doesn't work the same.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_140120 (34:12):
I love it.
you've mentioned twice now, thisidea of, When you're trying to
do something creative, right?
You got to trust your team fortheir strengths.
You got to lean in to what thatartist is good at, right?
Like don't.
over engineer a project to getit away from the core strengths
(34:35):
of the content, of the vision ofthe creators.
it's so key, right?
Like, just literally, stick withthe strengths, hire good people
for what they do.
You can make really dope stuff.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (34:47):
That's it.
You should be trying to taketechnology out of every project,
not put it in.
Your goal should be to strip theproject down to what's the most
delicious cut right here andstrip out all the other
technology.
make it as minimalistic aspossible when you're making an
experience.
Always.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14 (35:05):
feels like we let the folks in Vegas
determine what, like, experiencedesign should be And everybody
got this sense that, like, ifit's not an eight foot blinking
screen, it's not a greatexperience.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (35:16):
Right.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (35:17):
But I'm with you, right?
Like, I always talk about takingthe right bite of innovation.
Adrian Rashad Drisc (35:22):
Absolutely.
I like the right bite.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_1401 (35:24):
The right bite of innovation,
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (35:27):
Yeah, that's fire.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-20 (35:28):
copyright, awesome future.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (35:30):
Yeah, yeah.
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_ (35:32):
Adrian, it has been such a fantastic
time chatting with you.
I'm always inspired by theambition and focus, that you
bring to your work.
the sense of purpose that Ihear, in what you do is just, so
cool to see in a founder.
And I think every founder outthere is probably a little
(35:53):
envious of, thank you forsharing your perspectives on,
storytelling and takingtechnology out of the mix.
I've learned so much with you onthe Glow Up
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (36:04):
I appreciate you, Nathan.
We all have a part to play andI'm happy to be a small part of
something big..
nathan-c-_1_11-20-2024_14 (36:08):
Same.
Thank you so much.
Adrian Rashad Driscoll (36:10):
Always fun chatting with you.
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