EP 40: The Golf Swing. Major Components of the Swing, and Why Changes Shouldn't Be Taken Lightly

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Episode Summary

In this episode of The Golf Intervention, we break down the three elements of the golf swing—time, energy, and geometry. While many golfers are obsessed with geometry and, more recently, speed, we discuss why that’s only part of the equation. We also dive into the history of swing models, teaching theories over the years, and why changing your swing isn’t something to take lightly. If you’ve ever wondered whether you should tweak your mechanics or chase the latest swing trend, this episode is for you.

What We Cover in This Episode:

✔️ The three key elements of the golf swing: time, energy, and geometry
✔️ Why golfers are overly focused on geometry and speed—and the potential pitfalls
✔️ A look at the history of swing models and teaching philosophies
✔️ How to approach swing changes wisely to avoid setbacks
✔️ The story of Rob Failes being blocked on Twitter by Brandel Chamblee

✔️ The real factors that lead to long-term improvement

Resources & Links:

🔗 To Support the show or sign up for our free monthly newsletter https://thegolfintervention.substack.com/

Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review! Your support helps us keep bringing you high-quality golf content. https://www.thegolfintervention.com/reviews/new/

Episode Transcript

Tyler (00:00):
Today's episode is brought to you by the premium

(00:02):
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And we would of course like tothank all of our listeners for
tuning in, you make it all worthwhile.
If you would like to support theshow or sign up for our free
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(00:23):
notes.

Eric (00:26):
And welcome back to the golf intervention podcast.
My name is Eric Leighton.
I'm sitting here with my cohost,Rob fails.
We teach golf for a living andtoday on the golf intervention
podcast.
We're going to talk about thegolf swing.
Rob fails.
Are you fired up to talk aboutthe golf swing

Rob Failes (00:43):
Fired up.

Eric (00:44):
fired up?
We don't talk about the golfswing that much on here because

Rob Failes (00:49):
Nope.

Eric (00:49):
a show that's about the process of development, right?
Development and learning andskills.
And, uh, it's a very processdriven show,

Rob Failes (00:58):
yep.
Mm

Eric (01:01):
kind of understand the framework of what we talk about
when it comes to development.
And I will tell you that knowfirsthand it's helping people
because I've had, I had someonestop me, uh, at the country club
the other day and they're like,are you Eric?
And I was like, yeah, like,how's it going?
And Robbie, you heard this, youheard this story the other day,
but I was like, yeah.

(01:22):
And he said, well, I'm so andso.
And I just wanted to tell youthat.
I've been listening to your showand you and Rob Fales have
really helped me out.
He goes on and on and on abouthow he's playing better and
he's, you know, handicaps downand he, you know, did well in
the club championship and allthese things.
And I was like, man, that guy'splaying better.
He's never met us.
Never met us.
So all the stuff that we aretalking about, and he told me

(01:44):
practice habits, strategy on the

Rob Failes (01:47):
hmm.

Eric (01:47):
course, understanding the uniqueness of who he is and how
he plays and how to, you know,efficiently fit that into his
life and time and swing and allthese things has helped him.
so we have focused on all thoseother things, equipment and
practice and mindset and thisstuff that really lays the
foundation of the learningframework.

(02:08):
As I understand it, as youunderstand it, as a lot of
people who teach golf understandit.
I think today what we want toget into is the actual swing
kind of, right?

Rob Failes (02:20):
In a way,

Eric (02:21):
In a way we, uh,

Rob Failes (02:25):
this isn't the first time we've, we've, we've taken a
swing at this, by the way,

Eric (02:29):
there you go.
I like the pun taking a swing atthe swing episode.

Rob Failes (02:32):
that was, that was actually not intended at all.

Eric (02:35):
did it though.
You pulled it off.
So.
We recorded the other, the otherday, and we tried to do this.
We tried to pick up on skill andsort of the mechanical, if you
want to call it that effects ofskill and try to

Rob Failes (02:47):
I'd biases you maybe

Eric (02:49):
And it just didn't work.
It didn't work.
And like, halfway throughRobbie's like, this is not
working.
And we had a little

Rob Failes (02:55):
because it's too complicated.
Like it's,

Eric (02:57):
Yeah, it didn't

Rob Failes (02:58):
this is the whole point, right?

Eric (02:59):
that.
It doesn't, it doesn't actuallywork like that.
So, what we're not going to doon this show is criticize how
anyone teaches the golf swing,because

Rob Failes (03:08):
Right.

Eric (03:09):
thing that I've learned a long time ago is that people
that put themselves out theredoing something try to help
people,

Rob Failes (03:16):
Yeah.

Eric (03:17):
may have different styles.
Right.

Rob Failes (03:19):
Yep.
Okay.
Yeah,

Eric (03:37):
if you're learning.
Or you're growing, then thatperson's doing their job, right?

Rob Failes (03:42):
that's right.
Yeah,

Eric (03:50):
golf swing goes, and I think the main listener here is
likely going to be a golferwould be my guess.
well, we're going to say we'regoing to, we're going to leave a
lot of things unsaid.
So if you want to think aboutwhat we believe, you won't hear
certain things.
And then you'll probably take aguess as to how we,

Rob Failes (04:07):
you can read read between the lines kind of thing.
Right.

Eric (04:09):
read between the lines, but we don't criticize people
because Hey, people cancriticize us.
Right?
Everybody sees thingsdifferently.
And if you get results with yourstudents, that's what matters.
Like, that's the deal.
And so I think that when we talkabout the golf swing, listener
is who knows level 1, level 2,level 3 player, maybe a young

(04:31):
coaches tuning in.
Um, and what we want to.
Really make a point about onthis episode that we believe if
you're tuning into the golfintervention, because you're you
want to listen to what we haveto say about it.
Right?
This is this is what we believe.
Right?
And here you're my captiveaudience.

(04:51):
What we believe is that the golfswing isn't one right answer.
Right.
There isn't one model of theswing.
Okay.
Modeling is, is a little trickyin my opinion.
I think that for many years whenwe taught golf or tried to play
golf, we had to sort of see itthrough the lens of a model
because we didn't have a lot ofinsight on sort of the ball and

(05:12):
club interaction or,

Rob Failes (05:14):
That's all we had, right?
Yeah,

Eric (05:16):
we didn't have anything else.
Right?
So we, we would sort of modelit.
Um, and, and, and golf hasevolved.
I think people that's playedgolf for a long time or studied
would say, yeah, things haveevolved and things have gotten
better.
And those teachers that maybehad taught a model, a lot of
them maybe have moved away fromthat and evolved in their own
instruction.
So I think they're just evolvingand data is changing everything.

(05:38):
So, as we talk about.
Yeah.
Golf.
The one thing I, I kind oflearned way long time ago,
teaching golf was that therewasn't one right answer.
And so the overall philosophy ofpeople ask me, tell me about
your swing philosophy, Eric,because people say swing

Rob Failes (05:54):
that's a great one, right?

Eric (05:56):
all they ever care about is the swing.
So you and you and I have laidout a sort of a framework of
golf development.
Which is very different thanphilosophy, right?
So what's your swing philosophy,Eric?
Well, my swing philosophy isthis.
Um, everybody's different,right?

(06:17):
Everybody's different.
people have different pastexperiences.
They have different body shapes.
They have different capabilitiesor limitations out of their
body.
They learn different ways.
They understand different ways.
They play different sports.
so they all bring something togolf.
And then likely Their best wayof playing golf is understanding

(06:38):
how they can apply that to skilldevelopment to make them play
better, right?

Rob Failes (06:44):
Thank you.

Eric (06:45):
Um, that doesn't mean they'll never change their
swing.
This isn't a swing your swingthing.
This is like, you know, thereare unique characteristics to
each person.

Rob Failes (06:53):
Yeah.

Eric (06:54):
Um, what I don't believe is the opposite of that, which
is, Hey, here's a swing and youshould do it

Rob Failes (07:01):
Right.

Eric (07:02):
are.
And I think that's, that's kindof when we can get in a little
bit of trouble in golf, because

Rob Failes (07:07):
It's interesting.
Right.
It's like what people, a lot ofpeople want, right.
When they, when they take golflessons, they want their pro
oftentimes just tell them, Hey,just do this.

Eric (07:17):
Just do this.
That's it.
Just do this.
And you can't just do that.
That is not what we just do.
So I would say that, um, there,it's easy to look and watch the
PGA tour.
You know, Rory won rightyesterday.
Rory's got the swing that youwould watch and go, wow, that
looks, it looks like an orthodoxgolf swing.

(07:39):
Like if you, you know, whateverthat means, would you watch it?
You go like, that looks like agreat player with a great swing.
great.
Um, I would say that if you, ifyou were trying to learn golf
from major social media trends,it doesn't look like Rory's
swing.
And it certainly doesn't looklike Scottie Scheffler swing.
It's almost

Rob Failes (08:00):
That's right.

Eric (08:00):
Scheffler is a gift from the golf gods to make fun of all
the, all the like

Rob Failes (08:04):
Yes.

Eric (08:05):
golf

Rob Failes (08:06):
Correct.

Eric (08:07):
like he's doing the complete opposite,

Rob Failes (08:09):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Eric (08:14):
motion.
Like, okay, that's not exactlywhat, what we're influencing on
tick tock or something

Rob Failes (08:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

(08:44):
Sure.

Eric (08:48):
easy to see there isn't a right answer for should your,
should your left wrist or, youknow, your lead risk be cupped
or boat or flat at the top, youknow, should you have your arms
over your right shoulder?
Should your left arm bestraight?
Should you.
Who knows, should you separateyour femurs it when you, you
know, transition, it is,whatever these things are, okay,

(09:12):
the answer is, it depends, isn'tthat, isn't that true?
I mean, so I think that what wetry to do as coaches is just
learn the player, learn theirhistory, learn their body shape,
right?
Like, if you go back to our lastepisode with Dr Mike K and
listen to what he says about theshape of a person's body and how
that may influence how theymove, all kinds of things.

(09:37):
And so, um, we talk about theswing, it's a little hard for
like Robbie and I to go like,yeah, here's the swing.
You should do this becausebecause really, hopefully, if
you come and watch us teach,you'd say, wow, well, you taught
eight lessons today, Eric, but.
all did kind of different thingsprobably.
And that's, that's fair to saywhen they come to see you,

(09:58):
Robert, a lot of good teachers,right?
We don't want a quarter in themarket on this.
So, I think that some of thoseimportant factors, like, I'm
just going to name some bulletpoints and we'll try to go
through some of this today.
Um, a generally people are justdifferent.
They see things differently.
They learn differently.
They may.
I may be able to move, you know,differently based on their body

(10:19):
shape, or, maybe some pastinjury history, or stiff in
certain areas, or we can certainareas or hyper mobile, like, all
these things come into play.
Right?
Um, then you've got sort of howthey understand.
Where the club is in space, Ithink this is kind of a modern
understanding of teaching, whichdoes come into play, um, some of

(10:42):
them we call connect a clubkinetics, like this relationship
between how we're moving andpulling the club and how it's
kind of moving through space.
Um, and I think Sasha taught usa lot about that, right?
If you go back to our episodeand our interview with Sasha,
and I said that, I think Sashaput out 1 of the most important
kind of videos.
the history of golf instructionwith, with Chris combo, because

(11:03):
it introduced a lot of us tothis understanding.
Um, then you've got sort of thisother stuff that we're seeing in
the modern swing, which has alot to do with how we're
developing energy in the swing,right?
No, we use the term energyspeeds.
You put speed in there.
Um, but really this developmentof energy again, listen to Dr.

(11:23):
Mike K in that.
I've listened to that episode atleast 3 or 4 times, um, because
just like the way he explainsit.
And he, he's got that brain.
That's kind of like,

Rob Failes (11:36):
Oh, yeah,

Eric (11:36):
he's

Rob Failes (11:36):
it's, it's, it's going too fast.

Eric (11:39):
it's going fast.
And I wish we had the video forit because he

Rob Failes (11:43):
Oh, yeah.

Eric (11:44):
I mean, it's like, he's moving all over the, I don't
know if he was in a chair thathad wheels on it, but it was
like, he was, it felt like hewas moving all around his room
when he was talking

Rob Failes (11:52):
Yeah.
And then at one point he didbring out the pelvis and that
was actually showing us.
And that's our thing about apodcast is that you don't get
the visual.
So I feel like watching it backover.
Was a lot clearer and easier tounderstand than maybe listening,
but I think still, I totallyagree with you, like, listening
back to it.
It's, uh, it's always so muchfun listening to him talk about

(12:13):
movement.

Eric (12:14):
and I thought you did a great job, which I texted you
and said, a lot of what he wasdescribed super cool.
But you had obviously been,

Rob Failes (12:23):
some experience with him.
Right?

Eric (12:24):
about it and had a relationship.
So you had these, these, like,little illustrations.
You're like, well, it's kind oflike this and I thought those
were great, you know, and thoseparts of the, of the interview
were awesome.
And so there were so many thingsto take out of there.
Yeah, it was a, it was a broadepisode that covered a lot of
stuff,

Rob Failes (12:41):
Yeah.
Yes,

Eric (12:44):
really interesting pieces to it.
And in the modern instructionalgame right now, people are
fascinated with that withenergy.
Like, it's just it's the thing.
ground force reaction.
It's, um, you know, um, speedtraining.

Rob Failes (13:00):
I would say so.
And right.
If we go back to, we've talkedabout this before the, the 3
main.
Um, if you're going to come upwith like a deterministic model
of what is a golf swing, itreally boils down to energy,
time and geometry, right?
Being the main three, I wouldsay that energy is, is up and
coming really recently,honestly, but it's nowhere close

(13:24):
to geometry in terms of whatpeople are obsessed with.
Like if you look at Instagram,if you look at YouTube, if you
look at all this stuff,everybody is still obsessed
with.
Geometry like the positions theclub is moving through and that
kind of stuff.
Um, me

Eric (13:43):
I didn't actually say this.
I meant to, is it for a lot oftime?
Our digestion of the swing formwas 2 dimensional, right?
So it's just like pictures orvideos.
And so we're trying to gleaninformation from positions of
the swing.
And then that sort of phasesinto.
The Instagram, YouTube kind of,I don't know anything about

(14:06):
TikTok because I don't have it,but

Rob Failes (14:07):
either.

Eric (14:08):
visual, like everything on everything on Instagram is the
visual, like the picture.
Right.

Rob Failes (14:12):
Yeah.

Eric (14:13):
kind of funny to me, like, you watch these, these swings
that kind of pop up and they'reall in slow motion.
And like, if

Rob Failes (14:18):
Yes.

Eric (14:19):
in slow motion, it probably looks kind of cool.

Rob Failes (14:22):
Can't stand slomo.

Eric (14:25):
so you have to be careful about what you interpret from 2
D, uh, pictures or video.
I remember one time when I gotRob Fales blocked by Brandon
Chamblee on Twitter because hewould

Rob Failes (14:41):
I remember that

Eric (14:43):
of like complete random

Rob Failes (14:44):
the camera angles were so bad.

Eric (14:47):
Um, he was trying to make all these points.
Um, and I'm not poo poo andbrandled by any means, but he
was trying to make these pointsabout the golf swing up from old
black and white pictures fromweird camera angles.
And I just tagged Robbie and Iwas like, camera angles,
question mark.
And boom, Robbie gets blocked.
I don't know why Robbie

Rob Failes (15:03):
Yeah.

Eric (15:03):
I, he didn't block me.

Rob Failes (15:04):
I don't think I actually ever said anything.

Eric (15:06):
I don't think you did either, or you just like maybe
made an emoji face,

Rob Failes (15:10):
Yeah.
I liked it or something.
I don't know.

Eric (15:12):
or something, but,

Rob Failes (15:14):
Funny.

Eric (15:15):
but the fact of the matter is, you know, the golf, the golf
swing and the energy and allthat it's hard to determine
from, you know, what we had inthe past, like pictures.
And so now what we have is new,new interpretations.
Well, I think are gettinginterpreted incorrectly as well
at times.
Like, not afraid to say that.

(15:38):
Um, and I would think that otherpeople aren't afraid to say
that, like, know, you can't.
You can't take 100 tour playersput a couple sensors on them and
then say, okay, here's whatever.
Let's average all that datatogether and tell people this is
what they

Rob Failes (15:52):
Yeah.
It's so dangerous.
Right.

Eric (15:54):
Yeah, I think that's just because that's the, I mean, it
was an interpretation of data.
Right?
So fact is, that's the oppositeof what we started with the
beginning when we said peoplebring their own unique things to
the table and then we got toteach them how to.
Have golf skills, right?
But that, that modeling, thatheart, like that, big time,
like, here's the one model we'regoing to, know, that's tough.

(16:16):
That's, I think that again, itprobably helps some people and
some other people are going toreally struggle with that.

Rob Failes (16:21):
Right.

Eric (16:22):
everybody does have their own stuff.
And the way, not, not a lot ofpeople move like tour players.
Like, so if you're taking tour

Rob Failes (16:31):
Yeah,

Eric (16:31):
data and trying to teach a beginner 72 year old.
Whoever man or woman to put likethat data isn't super helpful.
I don't

Rob Failes (16:41):
correct.

Eric (16:42):
right.
It's not the thing to befocusing on.
And when they go to practice ontheir own, what are they
practicing?
Like, are they working on?
And they're not getting the datafrom whatever the 3D were giving
them in the

Rob Failes (16:55):
Right.

Eric (16:56):
right?
So they got to be able to carrythat out with them and they
can't.
So,

Rob Failes (17:00):
and that's where, as an instructor, our job can be so
dangerous if we have the beliefthat the swing creates the shot,
right?
Because we're going to give thisguarantee.
We're not going, you and Iaren't going to do, but a lot of
folks who are maybe early intheir teaching career or, or
just miss unders who havemisguided, um, are going to look

(17:23):
at this data.
Because I know I did in the pastfor sure.
So, so no hard feelings, but,you know, you look at the data
and you say, okay, well, onaverage, which is incredibly
dangerous.
First of all, because you couldhave an average of data where no
1 is exhibiting that exact datapoint.
Right?

Eric (17:42):
right.

Rob Failes (17:42):
and you say, okay, well, because they're doing
this.
Just do this, right?
But that data doesn't tell youhow it's collect, how it's
created, right?
It just tells you the result,what, what ended up happening.
So then you tell the story like,okay, well, if tour pros do
this.
It must improve the quality ofyour shots, whatever that means.

(18:03):
Again, it's more of a judgmentof like good or bad.
Right?
And so a golfer is going to goout and they're going to try to
do X movement.
And then their feedback is theirjudgment of, Oh, that was a good
shot.
That was a bad shot.
Right?
And so this is how we get intothese, these really, really bad
rabbit holes and kind of spirala good go down this downward

(18:24):
spiral.

Eric (18:25):
Yeah.

Rob Failes (18:26):
Is oftentimes that's kind of the sequence that that
happens.
Unfortunately.

Eric (18:30):
I think the most frustrated I ever see golfers is
when they are trying to.
Quote unquote hit positions intheir golf swing in

Rob Failes (18:38):
Yes.

Eric (18:39):
And they're really struggling with that.
Um, a, it's really hard to, formost golfers to just feel
they're doing while they'redoing it.

Rob Failes (18:50):
Yes, absolutely.

Eric (18:52):
just be honest.
Right.
And so like, just to say, Oh,you know, I was told I needed to
do this at the top of my swingor this halfway back or in my
transition.

Rob Failes (19:03):
Right?

Eric (19:03):
all work on parts of the swing.
I'm not saying we don't.
When you're When you're justtrying to work on that and the
only feedback is, yeah, at thetop of my back swing, I'm
supposed to do this thing,

Rob Failes (19:16):
And that means good shot.

Eric (19:17):
Yeah, it's really hard.
Right?

Rob Failes (19:18):
Right?

Eric (19:19):
filming every swing and and giving yourself feedback.
That's why we, we try to in theframework, build you a feedback
loop that has to do with impactskills.
Right?
We teach you.
Where the ball sitting on theface, trying to make some
judgment about the low point tomake some judgment about the
face path relationship as theballs flying through the air.
Right?
So, those are the things thatyou can give yourself feedback

(19:40):
on as you're

Rob Failes (19:41):
Totally.
Yes.

Eric (19:54):
Um, that's gonna be tricky.
I'm not saying we don't teachstuff like that, but it's gonna
be trickier.
Right?
So just have to be careful whatit is that you're trying to take
on.
So, A, you should never take anyof that stuff on without,
without a really good reason todo it,

Rob Failes (20:09):
Yes.

Eric (20:10):
And without, like, if you go take a lesson from a coach
and they say, hey, here'sexactly what you need to do
because your skills and here'syour, here's your goals and
you're not going to get there.
And if you believe them and youunderstand it, then you should
go work on that.

Rob Failes (20:26):
Yep.

Eric (20:27):
you're like, hey, um, I want to get better at golf.
And I saw this.
that said, if I do this thing, Ihad it for it's gonna be tough.
Or I read this

Rob Failes (20:37):
Yeah.

Eric (20:37):
or article.
It's gonna be really toughbecause the context matters the
context of the whole to yourpoint.
The context of that whole thingmatters.
So, as we go back into this alittle bit.
Rob kind of backtracking.
when it comes to the swingitself, and I know Mike K talked
about this, but let's just talkabout the human being for a

(20:58):
minute, right?

Rob Failes (20:59):
Yeah.

Eric (21:00):
being comes in and they're trying to figure out what the
golf swing is for them.
What are some considerations?
Obviously, you can summarize alittle bit from Mike K's
interview, but other things thatyou like to look at as far as
just The person, you know, theycome, they're standing in front
of you you're thinking aboutwhat golf swing should look like
for them.

Rob Failes (21:20):
Yeah.

Eric (21:20):
you making some judgments upon that

Rob Failes (21:22):
Oh.

Eric (21:23):
see him swing?

Rob Failes (21:24):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, like, like Dr.
K has talked about in the lastepisode, whether or not you,
your skeleton, your frame isbiased toward a wide or a narrow
is absolutely going to give youconstraints.
Right?
I think understanding that it isa constraint doesn't mean it's
determining that this is whatyou should or are going to do,
but just appreciating the factthat this is something that is

(21:45):
going to influence what you do.
Right?
So why rib cage versus narrowrib cage?
Uh, if you just look at thehuman, right, you can look at
someone with maybe a narrowerjaw versus a wider jaw, right?
So those two humans, whilethey're both humans, you can
think of them as differentanimals, right?
You've got a, uh, you got agiraffe, right?
Real long, you know, verynarrow, and then you've got An

(22:10):
elephant, right?
Not, it has nothing to do withyour, your body mass or your
weight or anything like that.
Like you have an elite, elite,elite athletes who are wides,
uh, or narrows, right?
So it has nothing to do withthat.
Just your DNA, your physicalstructure would be number one.
And then the other thing that Ilook at a lot is just a golfer's
gait.
Like when they walk, are theyactually moving through early,

(22:33):
middle, late propulsion in theirfeet?
Is there some sort of like across crawl pattern happening
between the step in the rib cageglide that in the rib cage, a
change of shape that we'vetalked about in the last episode
and then are their arms actuallyswinging freely, right?
So what does that kind of soundlike?
Which a golf swing, right?
There's a step, your rib cagechanges shape, your arm swing,

(22:57):
right?
So that all happens in a golfswing.
So if I see somebody who's maybetheir left side is really pulled
down, they're kind of, they,they, they can strive.
Well, with one foot or theother, right?
Or maybe one arms just notswinging, right?
Then that's kind of giving meclues like, oh, we might have
some stuff might have someagain, some constraints.

(23:18):
I mean, it doesn't mean thatbecause I've seen some people
who

Eric (23:22):
Yeah.

Rob Failes (23:25):
walk, I watch them stand.
I watched it.
I was like, Oh,

Eric (23:28):
Silence.

Rob Failes (23:31):
a golf club in their hand and they have the task in
front of them, they move likeamazing in front of me.
And I'm like, man, that wassurprising.
So again, it's notdeterministic.
It's just, again, it's aconstraint.
Um, so that would be number two.
And then obviously we've talkedabout this a lot again.
Other constraints are going tobe just your beliefs, right?

(23:54):
Your conventions.
What you believe you shouldquote unquote do, um, oftentimes
over long enough period of time,you end up doing pretty much
what you think you should do ortrying to do.
Um, problem is, it's not alwayshelpful.
Right?
So those are kind of the, someof the main things that I look

(24:14):
at on a day to day basis forsure.

Eric (24:16):
I look at shoulders a lot, you know, how their posture is
at the top of their top of theirback and their shoulders, you
know,

Rob Failes (24:23):
Oh, yeah, for sure.

Eric (24:25):
Are they kind of that rounded look?
Um,

Rob Failes (24:28):
That all goes into like the gate.
So like when I'm watching theirgate, I'm watching their whole
like, yeah, absolutely.
I agree.
100 percent with that.

Eric (24:35):
a, that's a big one.
And I don't see tons of walking,right?
Because they're just kind ofpopping into the bay with me

Rob Failes (24:39):
Yeah.

Eric (24:40):
So that's 1, but I would say that, Yeah.
Trying to understand whatpeople's limitations are.
So if you take a lesson and I,and I say, Hey, tell me if you
got any, you know, do you haveany knees, shoulders, ankles,
you

Rob Failes (24:54):
People don't remember.

Eric (24:56):
well, they just, they just lie most of the time.

Rob Failes (24:58):
Or that, right?

Eric (25:00):
I don't think they're lying.
I take it back.
What they're, what they're doingis they're downplaying.
Cause this is what we do in ourmind.
Like we'll say, ah, you know,like that knees, Bob, it's not a
big deal.
So we just kind of, wecompartmentalize it yeah, maybe
day to day life.
Like it's not a big deal, but ingolf, it could be.

Rob Failes (25:16):
I think half the time they do it because they're
like, oh, well, if I tell them.
This is going to affect the waythey look at me or like they
view my swing or something likethey, they want the most like
unbiased

Eric (25:27):
Yeah.

Rob Failes (25:28):
possible, but it only just helps us.
Like, that's the thing.
Like it's not.
And then to my point earlier,like I've, I've had situations
where like three or four lessonsin we're doing some stuff,
right.
And then they start feeling liketheir left ankle starting to
burn or whatever.
And then like, Oh, like what'sgoing on with your left foot.
And then they think about it.
They're like, Oh wait, Iactually did.

(25:48):
I have like a grade three spraina couple of months ago.
I was like, Oh, that would havebeen good to know.
Right.

Eric (25:56):
right.
Um, Oh, my ankles fused.
Oh,

Rob Failes (25:59):
Oh

Eric (26:00):
a couple of weeks ago where the lady, I said, tell me
about your shoulder.
Cause I could just kind of seeit.
Something was going on there

Rob Failes (26:05):
yeah.

Eric (26:06):
and she goes, I don't have any problems.
And she takes two swings and shegoes, well, I do have a torn
rotator cuff.
I was like, well,

Rob Failes (26:15):
Mm hmm.

Eric (26:16):
you know, right shoulder torn rotator cuff, kind of

Rob Failes (26:19):
Mm.
100%.

Eric (26:21):
that, and, and what I would say is, If your belief
system was you were supposed toswing like Rory McIlroy have a
torn rotator cuff in your rightshoulder, that's going to be
difficult.
But if you don't have thatbelief and you say, Hey, I've
got this limitation, maybe not atorn rotator.
Maybe I'm just a little bitlimited in my rotation.
Um, I can still play really goodgolf.

(26:43):
I can play my best golf withwhat I'm bringing to the table.
And that's what we're trying totell you, right?
The other thing that I think isinteresting is I don't think
that there's a, there is somenotion that.
Based on who you are, there's aright answer to exactly how you

Rob Failes (27:00):
Right.

Eric (27:00):
anatomically.
And I do, I

Rob Failes (27:02):
Yeah.

Eric (27:03):
some of those inferences are fine.
I think they're good and they'reinsightful.
But again, if you, if you'reinfluencing the belief system
too much of the person, then itkind of contradicts with
something that they think theyshould do.

Rob Failes (27:16):
Right.

Eric (27:16):
a problem.
So I had a

Rob Failes (27:17):
Yes.

Eric (27:18):
a, who's a very good teacher.
he, um, He was learning asystem.

Rob Failes (27:24):
Mm hmm.

Eric (27:25):
you know, he went, he went, certified in this system
of like biomechanical measure meand tell me all these things,
right.
Tell me how I'm supposed toswing.
Now he's a fabulous playerplayed at the university of
Florida.
Okay.
Like good golfer.
Um, I said, wow, I wasinterested, like, how did it go?
What did you learn?
Oh, it was really interesting.
But, you know, like when theytold me how I'm supposed to

(27:46):
swing, um, it hurt and, and, andI don't, and, and obviously it's
like, you know, it's a swingchange.
So I got to kind of, I got tokind of work through it.
So, you know, Dot, dot, dot.
I'm saying is he, his instinctwas this isn't actually, it's
not helping me and it hurts alittle bit.
It

Rob Failes (28:04):
Yeah.

Eric (28:05):
actually.
So there can be some inferencesthere.
I'm not saying that therearen't, but again, I think it's
very, gotta be careful when yousay you should, or you have

Rob Failes (28:15):
Yes.
Should is a very dangerous word.

Eric (28:18):
Yeah, we like could or options.
Like you

Rob Failes (28:21):
Yes.

Eric (28:22):
Eric, should I take the club here in my takeaway or
here?
Well, I mean, let's talk abouthow

Rob Failes (28:29):
Right.

Eric (28:30):
the ball flight.
all.
That's always what I'm goingback to like.
Well, if you take it back here,do you think that will open or
close the clip face?
Do you think that will make thepath move more in to out or out
to in?
Like, there is some cause andeffect there.
do you think it's going to help?
And then, or change, right?
Or influence.
And then, hit some shots andsee, right?

(28:52):
See,

Rob Failes (28:52):
Yeah.

Eric (28:53):
see how it feels.
Does that feel right to you?
Does that not feel right to you?
Um, so, when we're talking aboutthe body itself, The body shape
and then those, um, limitations,you could call them the
limitations that people have.
Um, it's going to really lend tooptions are in a lot of ways,

(29:15):
but it's not going to say,here's your box.
You're going to go fit in it.

Rob Failes (29:18):
Correct.

Eric (29:18):
at least I don't believe it's that way.

Rob Failes (29:20):
Nope.

Eric (29:21):
I'm always doing when I teach the golf swing, just like
any other part is just what Isaid, we ask questions.
Like, I ask them questions, askme questions.
We.
We explore things a little bit,right?
And then we come back and try tofind, like, does that feel
right?
Could you do that?
Does not because I'm alwaystrying to judge far off of what

(29:41):
feels like kind of like normalto them.
It is

Rob Failes (29:44):
For

Eric (29:44):
I don't want to try to move them too far off that.
Right?
Because I've learned that whenyou move people too far away
from that all at once, it's verydifficult to make the change.

Rob Failes (29:54):
skills to line up.
Right.
And that's where

Eric (29:56):
Yeah.

Rob Failes (29:57):
we, when we do skill training, whether we Do it
intentionally or not.
You can call playing golf skilltraining.
Um, when you use a Generalmovement pattern and you skill
train long enough.
It's going to get Coupled withthat general movement pattern,
right?
So this is the cost of swingchanges is that if you, if it

(30:21):
becomes too different, thenyou're going to have to
reestablish your awareness andyour perception and your
coordination of those skillsthat you spent all that time
doing with your previous generalmovement pattern with what
you're now doing, right?
Which you can do.
It's not a huge deal, but itjust takes time.

Eric (30:42):
Mhm.
No

Rob Failes (30:43):
And so if you got somebody, you know, who's
getting ready to go play atournament, that's why we've
always said like, yeah, swingprobably needs to be pretty darn
low on the list.
If you got somebody gettingready to go out and play a
tournament in the next month ortwo,

Eric (30:57):
people are so willy nilly about changing their swing.

Rob Failes (31:00):
I know it's, it's, it's unbelievable.

Eric (31:02):
It's crazy to me.
And I,

Rob Failes (31:05):
Good players too.
It's

Eric (31:06):
I think it's just because we're inundated with swing stuff
all the

Rob Failes (31:09):
like the only option they're aware of.

Eric (31:10):
yeah, people are just inundated with swings up all the
time.
If you talk about process, noone's interested.
You lose them in like 20seconds, right?
Unless the very intelligentlisteners, the golf intervention
podcasts are interested in that.
But I was listening to anotherpodcast, completely unrelated.
And the guy, okay.
Um, was saying that he had a, itwas an interview and he was

(31:31):
saying, yeah, I've got a healthand wellness podcast.
And he said, what you reallywant to tell people is it starts
with mindset.
It starts

Rob Failes (31:40):
Yes.

Eric (31:40):
know, the process, it starts with all these things,
you know, you can build up.
But people, people don't want tohear it.
They want to say they want threequick tips to losing 10 pounds
in a week.
And like,

Rob Failes (31:52):
Just do this.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.

Eric (31:57):
will say, like, once you click on one swing tip on your
Instagram, it just.
Your, your feed is inundatedwith all these things and these
people that are trying to maketheir, and I'm not trying to be,
I'm not trying to be critical,but a lot of the time is, it's
just young instructors that aretrying to make a name for
themselves somehow, right?
And it's like popping up in myfeed and it's.

(32:18):
You know, you must do thesethree things on your backs.
When I saw this one the otherday, these are the three must
haves in your backswing, I'mlike 30 second video.
What are you talking about?
Like, it's just kind ofirresponsible sometimes to do
stuff like that.
And I think that affectspeople's belief system so much,
but they see it and they see itand golf tip after golf tip,

(32:39):
after golf tip, swing tip, afterswing tip, after swing tip.
And so they're just like, oh, Ishould try this or I should try
that.
Or I should try this and Ishould try that.

Rob Failes (32:48):
Right.
They're just grasping hisstraws.
Right.

Eric (32:50):
you're grasping at straws.
it's kind of like buying cryptotrading crypto versus like just
buying a stock and sitting on itfor 20 years or something

Rob Failes (32:58):
Right.

Eric (32:59):
you want to, everyone wants the quick, the quick
turnaround when it's like, no,no, no, there's a process.
And if you trust the process,things are going to work out for
you in the long run.
Like.

Rob Failes (33:09):
Yup.

Eric (33:09):
In the long term, things are gonna be fine in the short
term.
It's a little trickier, right?
But you got to be patient withthe process.
And so that's why we focus onprocess.
Not as much on swing because Ithink what we said very early on
in this show is like, if youwanted to change your swing, if
it came down to that, which itdoes a lot of times, you got to

(33:30):
get a coach.
I mean, almost have to get acoach

Rob Failes (33:33):
Yup.

Eric (33:34):
and a coach that you trust and coach that.
That can really help you.
you know, as we talked about, aswe talk about, um, the swing
itself, this understanding ofclub kinetics, which we are not
going to have a deep, deep talkabout that today.
Like I said, I think trying togo back and

Rob Failes (33:52):
It'd be a subject.

Eric (33:53):
yeah, it could be, you know what, maybe it will be a
success.
Okay, the next bonus episode onthe sub stack will be on club
kinetics.
So give it, give the listener,Rob, you're like, 30 seconds
summation of what that means toyou.
What, what will we cover on thatsub stack episode?

Rob Failes (34:10):
Yeah.
It's just your options ofapplying force to the club,
right?
And where that force is directedand in what direction relative
to the club center mass, right?
You also have like, The amountof force, right?
The rate of force.
There's a lot of that that cango into it, but again, it's just
your options, right?
So how does it, how do you get aclub moving and rotating and

(34:31):
swinging in space?
Right.
So where are you going to haveto do, or how are you going to
have to push and pull thatthing?
Right.
Amazing.
Yeah.

Eric (34:49):
teaching golf, right?
As opposed to like, You know,you can go all the way back to
field based kind of instructionfrom the back in the day, which
is really, which was reallygood.
And people got people playingoff and then golf kind of
evolved into a little bit oflike a golf guru instruction
time.
I mean, I think the players hadtheir moment, right?
Ben Hogan kind of started likethe players had their moment and

(35:12):
they were teaching.
And then you had all the gurusin the eighties and nineties
that were like, come to theMecca.
And this is true story.
Like David Leadbearer is one ofthose.
Butch Armins were like, I knowtwo tour players, one LPGA, one
PGA tour, both, you know,retired, but they both have
stories, similar stories of likegoing to see David Ledbetter
with 30, tour players on therange at one time, you know,

(35:34):
just coming because they had,there was a belief that there
was an answer that I guess thereprobably was right.
If he got results, like he wasgetting with certain players
with the swing stuff that he wasteaching, then yeah, go see, go
see him, you know?
This is before track man withthe ball and club data.
So.
your, what you had was likethese teachers that were just

(35:55):
considered they were the, theywere the ones,

Rob Failes (35:58):
The gate keeper is right.
Yeah.
Yep.

Eric (36:02):
And I'm not being critical of that.
I mean, they did awesome, right?
People had, they were helpingpeople.
So that was what, that's justwhat it was at the time.
It was based on two and it wasbased on stuff.
And then, then that kind ofmoved into, um, like the early
computer modeling of the swing,probably, right?
Like, You know, with the, withthe Morad stuff and the golf,

(36:26):
the golfing machine kind ofinfluenced a lot of teachers for
a long time.
It was like this, like, uh,mechanical understanding stack
and tilt came out of that, outof that moment, right?
Like all these swings that werekind of named at that point.
Right.
And now I think we're just tothis point where we're kind of
not that that stuff'sirrelevant.
It's not people are stilllearning from that, but it's

(36:46):
like, you know, the evolutionis, is in this other stuff.
I think, um, And so then youhave the, well, you and I
believe, which is that it's allstarts with learning and
process, and then you're tryingto try to incorporate this stuff
in as need be, you know, and Ithink that if the description I
have from three different tourplayers in the eighties, late

(37:09):
eighties, early nineties ofpeople on the range with a swing
guru, one person's filming themthe, the person's not even
watching them hit most of thetime they're walking to a little
Like cave kind of thing with a,with a videotape VHS tape with
the golf instructor and thendrawing lines on the screen,

(37:31):
like with like marker, right?
Because I

Rob Failes (37:34):
Yep.

Eric (37:36):
and so that was, but that was the tools they had,

Rob Failes (37:39):
That's right.

Eric (37:40):
wasn't obviously a whole developmental structure was all
about the swing.
So they were going to see thatperson for swing advice.
Period.

Rob Failes (37:49):
Totally

Eric (37:50):
And so that's just the way it was.
And so I think now what you haveis a little bit A little bit of
a different deal, right?
And it's, there's all thistechnology and there's all this
insight.
And I think that we're a littlebit, um, we're just trying to
take it all in and understandit, you know, AI going to affect
it?
How is, you know, new ideas ofswing modeling going to affect

(38:13):
it?
I've been very hesitant to use3D modeling systems just because
I just don't the ranges ofoutcome that they spit out for
the player in front of me.
I'm just not sure.

Rob Failes (38:25):
right,

Eric (38:25):
How relevant it is and how they can practice it and how
they can it has to fit in theframework is what I'm

Rob Failes (38:30):
right?
Yeah,

Eric (38:32):
seen it in the framework.
What do you what about you?
Does it fit in the framework foryou?
Or how does that how are youseeing it?

Rob Failes (38:38):
I use it as like a convention buster, right?
So like if I have a, if I havea, like I use a system that's
called motion to coach andthey're actually coming to
sponsor the, uh, the retreat,which we're really excited
about.
Um, but I use motion to coach alot as well as smart to move and
just show that they might havethe belief that they need to

(38:58):
stay still.
Right.
Or that their pressure doesn'tmove and I'll show them one of
my best ball strikers on smartto move and I'll show them the
center pressure going back andforth and kind of a nice flow.
Right.
And then that will bust thatconvention.
Right.
And think, and also things aboutlike the direction handle moves
at a different times.
Right.
So people think, Oh, I've got topull the handle straight to the

(39:20):
ball in the downswing.
Well, no, like look at some ofthe best golfers that I have.
It does not move in a straightline towards the boss.
Right.
And so I think from thatstandpoint, it can be extremely
helpful to that end though.
Would I, would my coaching bethat much different if I didn't
have it?
No.

(39:41):
I mean, I'd say it's not superrelevant for 99 percent of the
golfers that I see on a day today basis.
But again, that doesn't meanlike that, that technology is
so, so, so valuable for us tolearn.
What to teach in some ways, butthen also what not to teach.
Like

Eric (39:59):
Yeah.

Rob Failes (40:00):
at some point, like I could have had the belief that
the panel moves in a straightline towards the ball.
Right.
But because we have measurementdevices that actually look and
see what these players aredoing, we learned, Oh wait, hold
on.
No, there's, they're not doingthat.
Right.
So I think that's, that's whyI'm so grateful for things like
motion to coach and smart tomove is that they really inform

(40:20):
me on like what not to teach orwhat not to inundate someone
with.

Eric (40:25):
Right.
I think that's totally right.
Um, And, and it's just, it'sjust like, for me, it's all
about the feedback.
So when we look at, when we kindof go back into kind of the
bullet points, we're talkingabout that ability to take a
swing and adapt, adapt itfunctionally to the

Rob Failes (40:45):
Yes.

Eric (40:45):
to create has to come from a place of, I don't know,
something that's, that's, thatyou have a good understanding of
what you're doing,

Rob Failes (40:55):
Right.
And that's,

Eric (40:56):
some feedback.

Rob Failes (40:57):
and that's where like smart to move and emotion
to coach have been reallyhelpful is because a lot of my
time is spent getting golfers todisassociate the feedback of
their swing in their feedback ofthe skill and their feedback of
the shot.
Right.
So a lot of times golfers gostraight from swing to shot,
like direct line, no awarenessof skill whatsoever.

(41:21):
So if we can start to, tounderstand that middle ground.
As we work through swing optionsto change biases, to maybe get
someone pain free, to maybeincrease, uh, or, or take away
some of the constraints, likelet's say the way they're
swinging just doesn't allow themto swing at a speed that they
need to play, right?
Well, if we're working on swingstuff, just try to reduce those

(41:44):
constraints.
Hey, I want to see the result.
Like, is it actually moving thatbias?
But then two, I want them to beable to give me feedback absent
of the impact spot on the face,absent of the ball flight,
right?
Absent of the ball speed.
Hey, did you do that or not?
And so now if I can take amotion to coach, I can show them
like, yep, it was definitelydifferent.

(42:05):
You did something different.
Now the shot wasn't what youwanted.
You hit off the heel, but itdoesn't matter.
Like you still did the swingthat we wanted.
We can go and still train.
Within the context of that sameswing to get off the mill to
face.
No problem.

Eric (42:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, a, um, As long as,as long as they can get feedback
that that's the key, that's

Rob Failes (42:26):
You bet.
It 100%.
Yeah.

Eric (42:27):
Yeah.
And so if you're, it's hard tolearn and develop without
closing that loop down.
And I think that's where golfersget stuck.
So the golf swing, we're talkingabout the golf swing.
You know, if you were, if youwere coming into this episode
trying to figure out how manyplanes you needed and, you know,
what's your wrist angle shouldbe, um, what you, what you

(42:49):
hopefully can take away fromthis episode is there's options,
right?
And if you look, at the swingsof great players, see they do
things differently.
I don't love the termbiomechanical matchup, although
I do understand it.
I do understand what they'regetting at, but what I would say
about that is, um, sort of causeand effect match biomechanical

(43:14):
matchup.

Rob Failes (43:15):
yeah.

Eric (43:15):
It kind of, again, horseshoes people a little bit,
I think

Rob Failes (43:18):
Yes.

Eric (43:19):
Okay.
Um, you know, you're, you're,you're doing this one thing in
your back swing.
So you have to do this in yourback

Rob Failes (43:26):
Mm hmm.

Eric (43:28):
that matches up or whatever.

Rob Failes (43:30):
Yeah.

Eric (43:31):
I think again, it's a way to communicate with people,
which is fine.
Um, at the

Rob Failes (43:36):
It quote unquote makes sense.
Right.

Eric (43:38):
makes sense.
It makes, um,

Rob Failes (43:40):
Doesn't mean it's right.

Eric (43:41):
but at the end of the day, I think that when you, when you
listen to some of that jargon,it's like, there's just so much.
There's so much informationgiven to the students saying, do
this and do this and do this,then do

Rob Failes (43:53):
Mm hmm.

Eric (43:54):
it.
Then do do then do.
And it's like, all this stuffover and over and over again.
And, um, and, uh, and again, Ithink it can work, but what I'm
saying is, I think that if thestudent is really learning and
understanding a lot of thatstuff's coming from them,
they're asking questions orunderstanding their
understanding is pushing themtowards a skill.

(44:16):
And then when it comes frominside of the student, when it's
organic in that way, guided by acoach who's asking them
questions or given themfeedback, they ask questions and
then they go, Oh, I understandwhat that means to me.
I understand what it means tome,

Rob Failes (44:31):
Yeah.

Eric (44:32):
connecting the dots for myself.
Then when they take it out ofthere, it's theirs.
They have ownership in it.
They have the ownership in it.
It is not your concept of theswing.

Rob Failes (44:42):
Totally.

Eric (44:43):
them towards it.
their understanding is whatmatters, right?
And this is where I feel likecoaching becomes such an
important thing.
And this is what I try toreiterate with all my young
instructors is like, you'regoing to have to, at some point,
see it through a little bit of alens of a whatever, because
you're just learning.
You're learning the cause andeffect.
You're learning these things.
Like, how does this.

(45:05):
Make this skill, or what am Itrying to do, but it's all about
communication.
And when that student can comeout of there and go, I really
learned something today.
It's it makes sense to me,right?
And it might be different thanthe next person that comes in.
That coach is that person on togain a higher level of
understanding that really helpsthem in the long term develop.

(45:28):
Right?
And.
If you, is why I never once putlike side by side swings, like
Mrs Smith here's Nelly Korda,right?

Rob Failes (45:42):
right.
Right, right.
Right.

Eric (45:51):
five feet five.
I digress.
Right?
Oh, the top of the spring, youknow, you're you look at this
and where your club is whereNelly's club is right?
Okay.

Rob Failes (45:59):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.

Eric (46:20):
but let's just watch it.
Or let's just watch Shane Lowry.
Like he, he hits this certaintype of ball flight.
Let's watch what he's doing.
See if you can figure out why hemight be able to pull that off.
And then they ask me questionsand they say things.
We have a conversation andagain, learning happens.
I mean, you've watched me teachfor many years, right?
So I think that those thosemoments are so impactful for the

(46:41):
student

Rob Failes (46:42):
Yep.
Okay.

Eric (46:58):
Robbie and I are saying here, it's not a willy nilly
lighthearted, Hey, I'm going tochange my swing tomorrow.
Kind of thing.
Like,

Rob Failes (47:05):
hmm.

Eric (47:06):
man, I think if we could just get golfers a little bit
away from that.
And working more on theirskills.
And then when they feel likethey've run into a wall with
their skills, guess what?
There's a gap in my skillset.
Let me go find a good coach andsee if they can help me.
I need a swing change toaccomplish that?
And a lot of times the answer isyes, they do need a little bit
of a tweak here.

(47:26):
There.

Rob Failes (47:27):
Right.
And in not all swing changesarise as intentional swing
changes.
So like a lot of times it's aconcept thing.
It was like, okay, what is yourbelief around how club head
speed is created?
Right?
Like that's a.
Big, big, big one.
Right.
And if you can find a coach thatcan start to strip away some of
those constraints for you, younever know, like your swing.

(47:47):
If you take that constraintaway, you never know how your
swing is going to develop overtime, but it's not, you never
actually put your attention onchanging your swing, right?
Like that's the, one of the bigthings that we want to get
across is like how far down theline that can be in oftentimes
should be, I don't like usingthe word should, but.
It's my belief, um, especiallyfor, for highly established

(48:12):
players, even like low to midhandicaps, like they've got,
they're playing every singleweekend, like they're going out
there playing with their buds,like their runway to actually
change something is objectivelyreally small, unless they're at
the country club of Virginia andthey have a, an amazing indoor
facility they can use throughoutthe winter and actually, you

(48:33):
know, use it, use it for thatway.
But a lot of times, like,especially in Virginia, yeah.
You know, we put the clubs downfor throughout the winter and
then we're playing, we pick itup in the spring and we're
playing right away.
So it's like, it's just.
It's not going to happen for alot of players.
Like they're not going to beable to actually change the, the

(48:55):
macro aspect of how they'reswinging a golf club.
Good news.
You can dramatically change itwith golfer's ball flight.
You can get them swinging fasterand get the ball going faster
off the face.
You can make a massive change tohow they enjoy and play the
game.
Without and you can make amassive change in their swing
without putting their attentionon it, getting them down these

(49:17):
rabbit holes of, Oh, I have todo this and I have to do this
and I have to do this to besuccessful because what we've
learned from dr prior is thatthe more constriction that we
give you, the less space thatyou have.
Right.
And then what tends to happen?
We don't play freely.
We don't have access to theskills that we've developed.
Right.

(49:37):
And then our psychology and ourmovement start to move in the
undesired direction.
So just keep that in mind.
Like putting, putting a golfer'sattention on changing their
motion is does not come withoutcost.
It does not come without risk.
Um, And you better know whatskill you're trying to bias,

(49:57):
right?
To understand, Hey, we're justbiasing it.
You're just moving the standard,like the, the center of
dispersion a little bit.

Eric (50:05):
Yeah.

Rob Failes (50:06):
it doesn't mean you're going to hit this next
shot.
Great.
Right.
There's no guarantees here.
Um, I think the more that we canseparate the skill from the
swing, from the shot, um, Ithink we can get golfers really
on a, on a much.
More a steadier, longer termpath of improvement

Eric (50:25):
Yeah, agree.
And to your point, like, whenyou go after a skill change,
sometimes the swing changes, itjust

Rob Failes (50:33):
as a result of developing that skill.
Right, exactly.

Eric (50:36):
I'm not picking on this, but if you're just judging, like
you put some 3d sensors on themand there's big time scooper,
right?
Like

Rob Failes (50:42):
Yeah.

Eric (50:43):
doesn't move laterally and transition weights, you know,
pressures on their back foot andimpact.
Right?
they're flipping their wrists.
I'm trying to use like basicterminology for the listener.
Right?
all of a sudden you say to them,like, well, and I know you, you
do that.
Like, how do you, how does, howdoes the ball get off the
ground?
Okay.

Rob Failes (51:03):
Right.
Yeah, exactly.

Eric (51:05):
it?
Well, a lot of times they don'trealize it.
Maybe even consciously,sometimes kind of someone's not
that they're literally trying tofit the bottom of the club under
the ball

Rob Failes (51:14):
Yes,

Eric (51:15):
and lift it up, right?
You see, it's a lot

Rob Failes (51:16):
correct.

Eric (51:17):
an adult beginners

Rob Failes (51:19):
Right.

Eric (51:20):
describe to them.
Hey, let's check this out.
I'm gonna show you, I'm gonnashow you how the ball goes up in
the air.
You just described low point tohim.
You described loft like

Rob Failes (51:28):
Mm-hmm

Eric (51:29):
on the face and you give them the club back.
Let me see a couple of practiceswings.
Let me see if you can hit theground.
where the ball would be rightand the next thing, you know,
what's happening, they'reshifting their weight,

Rob Failes (51:42):
Exactly.

Eric (51:43):
The low point is moved forward.
They're not on their back foot.
So the swing change

Rob Failes (51:49):
Mm-hmm

Eric (51:49):
the skill change, Right.
And it was, it was not aboutchanging the swing to change the
skill.
changing the concept of whatthey were doing to

Rob Failes (51:59):
Yeah, exactly

Eric (52:00):
and then their swing athletically adapted.
So I think a lot of times we'rejust, we're just doing it a
little bit backwards, right?
They were doing a little bitbackwards and then, you know,
we're making it a lot harder onthe student or

Rob Failes (52:13):
Yes,

Eric (52:14):
potentially than it needs to be, right?
And so what did that studentgain from that discussion?
A, they gained an idea of whatthe skills are.
B, they gained this actualnatural athletic motion without
even thinking about it.
So they're doing it withouttrying to do it.
So as again, going back to Dr.
Pryor, they're, they're being,they're not doing

Rob Failes (52:35):
yes.

Eric (52:36):
So they're

Rob Failes (52:36):
Love it.
Yeah.
Hundred percent.

Eric (52:39):
It is what it is.
So again, so we're referencing acouple episodes today, Dr.
Pryor, Dr.
Mike

Rob Failes (52:44):
It's like every episode now, we tell people

Eric (52:47):
Dr.

Rob Failes (52:47):
listen to that one.
Right.

Eric (52:49):
check them out.
I'm going to link them in theshow notes.
Why not?
I know you can't find themanyway, but why not make it
easier on the listener?
The point is.
We've learned a lot from thoseguys over time, they're, they're
influencing people like Dr.
Mike.
Dr.
Mike, maybe isn't as well knownas those other guys, but there's
other people in that space thatare influencing, right?
They're influencing in a similarway.

(53:11):
And so I think that the pointthat Robbie and I were trying to
make to the listener, I thinkwe've pulled off.
I'm excited about it.
Hopefully we've pulled this off.
Listener is.
The golf swing.
It's really based on you, theperson, It's really based on
you, the person, and itshouldn't be taken lightly.

(53:32):
When you, when you change yourswing, you should have a process
for that and you should workthrough what we've talked about
before.
This framework of skilldevelopment.
Go back to just our last few.
Not the, well, you could listento my cave, but those two other
episodes, full length episodeswe

Rob Failes (53:47):
Hmm.

Eric (53:47):
Where we talked about the skills, the framework building
up to this, and we, we did thatepisode, when to make swing
changes, which I've gotten tonsof feedback on that

Rob Failes (53:56):
Yeah,

Eric (53:57):
Um, and here we are, we're at swing changes we tried to do
this episode as like, okay, ifthe low points this, you might
have these options and it justwas, it was ridiculous.
A, because we don't teach likethat anyway, necessarily.
Like

Rob Failes (54:13):
We don't.
Yeah,

Eric (54:14):
We don't communicate it that way all the

Rob Failes (54:15):
no,

Eric (54:16):
So we knew it was crap.
So we got rid of it.
Here we are.
I think we, but hopefully we didbetter this time.
So, um, I think that insummation, hopefully you've
learned a little bit ofsomething, anything else you
want to add to the, uh, to thestory tonight?
Rob fails.
Yeah.

Rob Failes (54:37):
right?
There are a few things that theresearch has shown us that most,
if not all elite ball strikers,foreign professionals do.
Pretty similarly, right?
Um, it's only a couple, it'slike two or three things.
Um, I think we're, this iseither going to be a sub stack

(54:59):
or maybe the next episode, butit's not what you think.
It's not like the position ofthe arms at the top.
It's not the clubface position.
It's not the position halfwaydown.
It's not the, the, uh,

Eric (55:14):
style

Rob Failes (55:14):
right.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's a lot of stuffthat you can't really see that
well,

Eric (55:21):
Yeah.

Rob Failes (55:22):
which is why again, I'm of the opinion and I'm
sharing this on video that thisnumber of golfers.
I'm making a zero, this numberof golfers, uh, need to video
their swing and look at theirswing.
I just don't,

Eric (55:36):
bold statement.
Bold statement.

Rob Failes (55:39):
because here's the deal.
the only thing they're going tolook at is geometry anyway.
Like, and there's nothing GMgeometrically that all the best
golf.
All the best players or ballstrikers do commonly.
So like, what are we doing

Eric (55:54):
And

Rob Failes (55:54):
basically?
Like,

Eric (55:56):
you know, I want to add this and I know we, we made this
point a couple episodes ago, butif it's in here right in this
moment, too, if your notion ofthe golf swing is that there's
perfect positions that you'regoing to perfectly repeat, Time
and time again to hit your ballright in the middle of the
clubface or the square clubfaceor whatever ball flight you're
going to hit, and you're justgoing to repeat, repeat, repeat,
repeat, and you're going totrain that through repetition,

(56:18):
and then change it.
And it's never going to change.
you're just setting yourself upfor a tough.
Time and golf, right?
And you have to haveadaptability and you have to
understand function and you haveto understand who you are as a
person and how you move and howyou learn and how, you know, how
you can judge your skills andchange your skills and adapt.

(56:41):
And, and I thought that Mike Kaysaid something that I just have
to wrap my mind around a littlebit more, is he was talking
about tuning the club.

Rob Failes (56:51):
yes,

Eric (56:52):
And I just got to wrap my mind around that one a little
bit more because I, I know whathe's talking about.

Rob Failes (56:57):
Oh, for sure.

Eric (56:58):
almost an unmentionable thing

Rob Failes (57:00):
It's a state of being.
I think, I think you're justpresent with the club.
I don't think you're trying toforce anything.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eric (57:08):
like, it's almost like golf swing nirvana.
like the culmination of like we

Rob Failes (57:16):
mentioned it in like you and I have both experienced
it.
Like, yep.
I felt like I had all the timein the world there.
I knew exactly where the clubwas the whole time.
Right.

Eric (57:24):
Right.
But you're, and again, I thinkthe more we constrain, the more
constraints we have, The lesslikely we're ever going to get
to a place like that.

Rob Failes (57:32):
Totally agree.
The more you think you're like,you have to do X, Y, Z.
I think the less likely youexperienced that.

Eric (57:40):
so that's why and again, I don't want to leave this episode
with anybody thinking we werebeing critical of any
instructor.
We are not.
I think people do the best thatthey can.
People communicate differently.
People learn differently.
People had different tools atdifferent times and in the world
and in life, and they've alldone great.
I would never criticize anybody.
I mean, I mentioned names today.

(58:01):
David Ledbetter.
David Ledbetter is one of thegreatest instructors of

Rob Failes (58:04):
Legend.

Eric (58:05):
Yeah, he's a legend.
So I'm not, I'm not beingcritical.
I'm just telling you what it waslike to go see him in the 90s
from the that I had heard.
So the point is, um, And I don'tknow that I would teach the golf
swing just like David Ledbetterdoes, and I think that's okay,
too.
The point is, um, you have, youhave options.

(58:25):
And so if you believe you don'thave options, like, I have to do
this.
That's why I said I don't lovethe matchup thing.
I understand what people arecommunicating there.
Like, oh, if you do this, thenyou have to do this thing to
match it up.
Well, I mean,

Rob Failes (58:37):
But like, there's no such thing as there's no such
thing as cause and effect.
Anyway,

Eric (58:41):
well, that'll be part of our other episode.
We, we don't have enough time totalk about how Rob Bales just

Rob Failes (58:46):
that's a,

Eric (58:47):
There's no

Rob Failes (58:48):
that, that's a, that's a, that's a very, very
poor misunderstanding of howthis all works is cause and
effect.
That's like my, one of my leastfavorite things ever.

Eric (58:57):
So it's just, you have this swing.
And again, we're, we're going todo a sub stack on the, on the
club kinetics.
And we might add something elseinto that as well.
We'll see how deep that goes.
Um, but that'll be our nextbonus episode, which we will
record in the next few days.
And I kind of feel like thatwhole Mike K tuned in the club

(59:19):
thing, which is so cool.
that's just like the culminationof what we were just talking
about.

Rob Failes (59:23):
Yeah, it's like your access to skills.

Eric (59:26):
place where

Rob Failes (59:27):
Yeah.

Eric (59:27):
at one with what you're doing you can literally just
adapt your skills in a moment intime and just be, you know, just
be with the ball flight.
And I know that sounds a littleZen and I am no, I am not a Zen
guy at all, but the point is,it's just, it's a state that
we've been in.
If you've played really goodgolf,

Rob Failes (59:47):
Oh, a hundred percent.
Yeah.

Eric (59:49):
not there right now is Victor Hoffman, and it's tough
to listen to Victor talk rightnow.

Rob Failes (59:53):
Mm hmm.

Eric (59:54):
is, if you've heard some of his interviews recently, um,
he's really, really in the, inthe, like, in the woods, it
sounds like, lost in the woods,in the wilderness, kind of like,
wandering around with his golfswing.
but to your point, when hetalked about the changes he was
making to see certain things,now he can't figure out where he
was.
That's what he keeps saying.

(01:00:15):
He said, I was here and I wasdoing great.
then I wanted this one extralittle thing.
And now I can't figure out

Rob Failes (01:00:21):
I know.

Eric (01:00:21):
that I was

Rob Failes (01:00:22):
And not to get on through the long of a tangent,
but like, I think he needs toaccept that you can't step in
the same river twice.
You can't go back in time.
You can't be who you were

Eric (01:00:33):
The

Rob Failes (01:00:33):
like,

Eric (01:00:34):
we sound really Zen today.
We

Rob Failes (01:00:36):
right.

Eric (01:00:37):
or something today.
point is, um, yeah, that riverhas changed.
Right?

Rob Failes (01:00:43):
Yeah.

Eric (01:00:43):
trying to find that.
And he's got a good instructorthat I think he's working with
now from, you know, friend ofthe pod.
We'll call him, but

Rob Failes (01:00:49):
Yeah.

Eric (01:00:50):
hopefully.
they find a place.
Hopefully, I mean, he said hehad no idea.
He said his golf swing wastrash, I think.
And the next day he shot 65 atPimple Beach, you know, like,
but that's the talent level ofVictor Hovland.
Like he's

Rob Failes (01:01:05):
Yeah.
His skills lined up on that 65,right?

Eric (01:01:08):
up and hopefully his swing starts to get himself to where
he can,

Rob Failes (01:01:12):
Yeah.

Eric (01:01:12):
some, some level of comfort, um, to where he was.
So I like that.
You can't step in the same rivertwice.
Think about that people.
You cannot step in the sameriver twice.
That's why we talk aboutadaptability.

Rob Failes (01:01:23):
Yes.

Eric (01:01:24):
day to day.
Tiger Woods talked about this.
No one listened to him.
Everybody thought Tiger wascrazy and he talked about it
constantly.
Right?
And.
is Tiger changing?
Why is Tiger doing?
Why is Tiger hit nine shot?
He should only hit one shot allthe time.
Like, no, like Tiger knew whathe was doing.
He was the greatest of all timefor many reasons.
So anyway, don't think I haveanything else to add to the golf

(01:01:46):
swing

Rob Failes (01:01:47):
No, I think we, I think we did it.

Eric (01:01:49):
I think we covered the things we wanted to cover.
Again, not being, we were notcritical of any money.
We would never do that.
We're just trying to say, if youwant to tune into our show,
here's what we're going to talkabout.
And that's it.
Cause that's your, if you'relistening for our opinion, we
gave it.
And hopefully it was helpful toyou.
So takeaways from today, listento those other episodes, be

(01:02:10):
don't do change the work on yourskills.
If you have to work on yourswing, take a lesson and don't
take it lightheartedly becausegolf swing changes are.
So thank you for tuning in againto another episode of the golf
intervention podcast.
We're humbled and honored thatyou listen to our show to be
quite honest.
We're just a couple of guys thatcan't believe.

(01:02:32):
Um, yeah, I mean, we just keepgrowing and growing.
It's pretty cool to see.
We appreciate you tuning in.
So anyhow, I hope you all, Ihope you all have a great
evening.
Good luck with whatever it isthat you're doing in golf.
I hope it's warm where you areat 65 today in Richmond and I'm
looking forward to the springsooner rather than later.

(01:02:54):
right, Rob fails.
Have a good night.

Rob Failes (01:02:59):
Good night.
Cheers.