September 16, 2022 • 37 mins
Death, Grief and Bereavement are something each of us will experience. Grief is different and uniqued to each individual. How we show up as friends, colleagues and managers can play a crucial role in providing comfort during hard times.
Dr Kent Tonkin, Associate Professor at St Francis University, share his life long journey shaped by loss and grief. From early childhood loss to his doctorate discretion on Bereavement Policy in the Workplace, Kent's story is inspirational and comforting.
I have been radically shaped by loss and grief as well. I have learned that is has a sacred and healing purpose. It has taught me how to heal and growth. It has also shown me how to support those that are experiencing loss. Kent and I share many bonds, but this is a deep connection that we speak to in this episode.
Kent's eventual healing came through acts of service. He was introduced to the "Healing Patch Children's Grief Program". The Healing Patch offers support to children that have lost a parent or caregiver. The program needed help when funding was cut and Kent assisted with fund raising. That lead to a successful non-profit and his active involvement with it.
Kent's doctorate work in the area of Bereavement Policy in the workplace is both progressive and sorely needed. The Family Medical Leave Act (FMLA) provides time to care for a dying loved one, but does not provide for any bereavement leave or support. Workplace policy is either non-existent or is not easily accessible. In his studies, Managers and direct supervisors can have the greatest impact for employees that have suffered a death of a loved one.
Dr Tonkin is also involved with The Evermore group that advocates for regulatory and legal advancements for loss and bereavement policy.
Dr Tonkin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kent-p-tonkin
The Healing Patch: https://www.facebook.com/healingpatchchildrensgriefprogram/
Evermore Bereavement Care: https://live-evermore.org/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Meeder (00:00):
Welcome to the great things LLC podcast, the
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Each episode shares the wisdomexperience and the intentions of
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(00:23):
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inspire your worth being thebest version of yourself.
Welcome, listeners. today'spodcast is one that hits very
close to the heart. And it hassomething that all of us
experienced throughout ourlifetime. And it is talking
about grief, bereavement lossand healing from that. Today's
(00:44):
guest is a good friend and justa wonderful gentleman in it is
Dr. Ken Tonkin. Ken, welcome tothe program.
Kent Tonkin (00:54):
Oh, Josh, thanks so much for having me.
Josh Meeder (00:57):
So can't we'll just give you the credentials here a
little bit. So you are anassistant professor at the St.
Francis university with theSchool of Business and I see you
have dual appointments in boththe human resource management
and MIS system. You're also aphenomenal musician for one of
my favorite bands, Jim Donovanand the Sun King warriors. So
(01:17):
you you've done a lot. But herewe are today, and you are seated
at the at the college officethere.
Kent Tonkin (01:24):
Yeah, I'm here in my office. Today I'll be meeting
with students when we're donewith our interview today, let's
just
Josh Meeder (01:28):
start this discussion by identifying what
is grief, because it's differentfor so many and how it touches
people.
Kent Tonkin (01:36):
But grief often gets lumped in with the world of
mental illness. And theimportant thing to realize is
grief is not a mental illness,Grief is a natural response to
loss. Now, as you aptly state,everybody experiences grief in a
different way. Sometimes griefcan go for longer periods for
different people, it never getsthe title of mental illness
(01:57):
until it starts to become animpediment to your normal
functioning over a long periodof time. It's natural, it's part
of life, because everybody andeverything dies. And so how we
respond to it is really up to usindividually. And again, it's
something that we don't reallyintegrate well into our daily
lives in Western culture.
Josh Meeder (02:18):
In grief, while we're talking about specifically
here today, the bereavementprocess and the policies around
that grief can also come in alot of different forms. It is
from the loss of a loved one, itcan be from the loss of a
relationship, it could be from achange of career abandonment,
health diagnosis, it could beliterally moving on to a better
place in life because you'regrieving what's known. So while
(02:41):
it comes in different forms,sometimes that process may feel
similar. Would you feel the sameon that? I'd give
Kent Tonkin (02:47):
you the agree. And I think right now in 2022, the
reason we're also cognizant ofgrief, people quite literally
have lost loved ones during thecourse of the pandemic. But at
the same time, we're alsogrieving the lives we had
before. When we could just goout and do anything we want it
without really thinking aboutit, going to a concert, go into
a shopping mall, eating dinner,those things are things we don't
(03:09):
take for granted now because welost them or had the modified
physician on time.
Josh Meeder (03:14):
Yeah, thank you. I feel that and I think that's a
piece that's missed. But let'stalk about, we'll share both of
our stories because you and I'veparallel on some things on on
some loss. So let's let's startat the beginning can't use you
suffered a lot of loss. Veryearly on, if you would share
(03:36):
your story, to give thelisteners some context here.
Sure.
Kent Tonkin (03:40):
I am very open with my background. I have a twin
brother, we were estranged fromour father, our mother and
father were not married. And myfather passed when I was about
six, I have no no memory of him.
And his place was filled by anuncle who became like a
surrogate father to me. My unclepassed when when I was in
seventh grade, followed tearslater by my mother. And so then
(04:01):
my grandmother who had been ourcaregiver, and the person who
had filled in for my mom passedwhen I was a year out of college
and went by the time I wentbetween the ages of six and 22,
other than my brother, everybodywho was in the house I had grown
up with had passed away. And sowe really experienced a lot of
(04:22):
loss very quickly. Some of thecomplications from that. I mean,
obviously, loss is tough. Butwhen you're going through the
1980s, before we had greaterawareness of integrating these
kinds of experiences, I rememberduring none of these losses did
anybody in my schooladministration ever talked to
me? Counselor never talked tous. We were never put into any
(04:43):
kind of program. The best Irecall is our family doctor when
my mom passed offering mybrother and I tranquilizers,
not, not things that wereproactive but basically you can
dull the pain and what weexperienced I think it's kids
When my brother got into a lotof destructive behavior that led
me on the path to becomesomebody who worked constantly
(05:05):
somebody who became addicted todoing more things all the time
to shut down my own feelingsreally derailed my personal life
in my relationships. Because Idid not have a successful shot
at integrating grief until muchlater on in my life. What I
credit to saving my existence,was getting involved in
volunteerism, particularly witha group called the healing patch
(05:27):
where I started working withwith grieving teenagers, that
was the age group I was pairedwith, and having a chance to
intervene. And to work withthese kids, when they were in
the same shoes I was in fixed apart of my heart that I cannot
even put into words, sometimesit's it was really what saved my
life and put me on the course tobeing a positive person today
who can talk about these things.
(05:50):
That's that's a really kind ofcondensed version of what
happened. But yeah, I walked insome awesome weird shoes for a
substantial part of my life.
Josh Meeder (05:59):
I understand that.
And I'll share a little mystory, one of the things that I
felt I felt the connection and asimilarity is one being of the
same age in the same generation,there wasn't the awareness. And
even still, today, people areuncomfortable on talking about
grief. My first experience withgrief or loss was my great
grandfather who I was born onhis birthday. On Father's Day, I
(06:19):
share his name. And so we hadthis beautiful connection, first
great grandson, and he passedwhen I was, I think I was nine
or 10. So that was the firstexperience. And then my father
passed in when I was in college,and in my senior year, and the
school did what they could, butthere wasn't anything for the
bereavement part of it, I had aunique situation where I
(06:42):
actually had to start workingand take over my father's
insurance agency and completeschools, they moved my schedule
around, which was tremendouslyhelpful. So I could work three
days a week and finish schoolthree, finish working three days
a week to get the agencyrunning, which was helpful, but
there was no emotional supportthere. And then, six years ago,
I had I was in relationship andmy partner passed unexpectedly.
(07:04):
And to that point, I kinda likeyou as like, well, I buried
myself in work, I was, you know,go go go, especially at 21 I
didn't have the emotional skillsets, nor did I have the outside
support. Unfortunately, on thislast loss with my partner, I had
some really good folks around meand some really good healing
(07:25):
modalities that helped turn andput my life into a whole
different directory, which I'mhere now. But those resources
really aren't available for manyout there. And there's such a
such a distaste or like,uncomfortableness, being able to
talk about death or loss in insociety or in workplaces. So
(07:46):
with that, you found your yourhealing, your healing started by
helping others in that position.
So you shared your story withme. But the story of the healing
patch is a beautiful, beautifulstory. So I'd like to go into
that. How did you first getintroduced to that healing patch
(08:08):
who put you in that place?
Kent Tonkin (08:10):
I like to say sometimes the universe has to
hit you in the head pretty hardbefore you listen. And I had
seen a flyer here at St. Francisfor a group called the healing
patch and had kind of blown itoff it was I'd heard about this
grief mentoring service andthought, well, that's not
something I want to get involvedin. And it took two or three
different people mentioning itdirectly to me who knew my
(08:31):
story, before I finally calledthe coordinator and said, I'd
really like to come down and seethis place. I met the
coordinator. Her name was AlisonStockley. And at that time,
within three minutes of meetingher, I knew that I needed to be
a part of it. Their model is nottherapy, their model is having
kids split up into into groupsbased on age and maturity. And
(08:52):
these kids build their own peerbonds and peer networks. And the
idea being kind of the model is,look, I know you're in a place
similar to me, I got you. If youneed to talk I can be there for
you. We as the adults in theroom are facilitators, we're not
counselors, we create the formfor the kids to build the
connections themselves. And oneof the most beautiful parts
(09:12):
about this model, there's aseparate room for the adults, if
there are surviving adults, theyare able to talk to other adults
who are trying to raise kids asnow similar caregivers in many
cases, and trying to healthemselves. I've got to share
this story. This is what healinglooks like. And this is what it
means to heal in your community.
There was a gentleman who hadlost his wife and had a young
(09:33):
daughter and his daughter wascrying before school every day
because mom was no longer thereto braid her hair. And the
ladies in the adult room taughtthis man how to braid his
daughter's hair. And I don'tknow if there's a better
allegory for peer mentoring andhealing than that story.
Josh Meeder (09:51):
Beautiful like what an awareness in a simple act
like you can't fix grief. Youcan only support the person
through the process and That'swhat that that daughter needed.
What a beautiful story. Now,you, you so you got in and you
started to mentor some of thesekids, there was a place where
that got deeper where you becamemore active within the
(10:12):
organization itself. And somefundraising
Kent Tonkin (10:15):
we want to happen was because this is a nonprofit
organization that was part atthat time have a home health
care group. And they were facingbudget cuts. And a group of us
knew about this. And what theywere looking at cutting off at
the beginning of every sessionwas a communal meal. And that's
so important, because it'sbreaking bread together and
saying, we can have this time toget in and know each other a
(10:37):
little before we get into theheavy lifting, when they're
gonna have to cut the meals. Anda bunch of us got together and
said, This is unacceptable. We,if they're facing budget cuts,
we can raise some money, we puttogether a concert, got a few
bands together felt we'd make1200 bucks to buy a few pizzas
for the year. And our firstyear, we raised $5,000. The
(10:58):
second year we did it, wethought we'll make $5,000 this
year and before expenses, wemade $12,000. And by the third
year, we had to form a nonprofitbecause we were moving too much
money around to simply becarrying bags of money to give
people to buy pizza. And thatled to patch together
Incorporated. And since 2011,since our first year when we
were not officially inexistence, we've now raised over
(11:20):
$130,000, since 2011, to be ableto ensure that those resources
are available to kids who needthem. So that was how, that's
how I got into the world ofnonprofit but by necessity,
we're moving too much money.
Josh Meeder (11:32):
Oh, you know, not a problem that most early stage
nonprofits have. So that's agood thing. How many in that
timeframe? would you estimate?
How many kids? Have you impactedor had touchpoints? With?
Kent Tonkin (11:45):
That's a really good question. I would say,
literally, we're probably in the1000s at this point. And keep in
mind, this is a small community,we're in small rural parts of
Pennsylvania. And there are twolocations, one in Cambria, one
in Blair County that have largeoutreach. What had happened,
though, Josh, over the lastseveral years, prior to COVID,
the service has started gettingmaxed out, because of the high
(12:07):
amount of opioid deaths inCentral PA. And after COVID hit
all of a sudden, a lot of thesekids COVID overtook opioids as
the number one source ofparental death. And the services
at this point, they're at timesthere are a waiting list because
there's such a demand for theservices. And it's really, the
(12:28):
folks coordinate this programare doing a lot with
Josh Meeder (12:31):
a little. That's amazing. So we will drop the
link and information in thedescription here. So if this
story moves, you, please feelfree to encourage you to go
support the healing patch in thegreat work they're doing. So
we'll drop that there. So atthis point, Ken, what what age
were you when you got involvedin this? And because in how did
(12:54):
you move into the educationsystem and moving on towards
ultimately the bereavementdoctorial work you've done?
Kent Tonkin (13:00):
Well, I was in my middle 30s When I discovered the
healing patch, and again, hadhad a series of failed
relationships in my wake,because of my inability to
integrate grief got into thehealing patch and my middle 30s.
And by 2011 actually breakbefore it turned 40 is when we
started doing the fundraisingpiece. And it kind of parallel
because I had a career change.
When I was 30. Actually no I wasI was 4040 years old. When I
(13:23):
started teaching 41 Actually,when I switched from from
working in a corporate job toteaching full time. And so it
kind of paralleled in terms ofthe transition into the
nonprofit world that transitioninto teaching. And that led to
doctoral work. And the work I'vebeen doing as a volunteer kind
of all of a sudden became mydoctoral thesis to the person
(13:44):
who who spurred me on her nameis Melody Ray. She's the current
coordinator of the healingpatch. And during one of our
conversations said to me, Well,if you're doing research
involving organizations, haveyou ever looked at bereavement
policy? And again, sometimes theuniverse has to hit you in the
head? And I said, Wow, no, Ihadn't thought of that. But I
probably should. And so theperson who coordinates that
(14:07):
organization that had beensupporting for over 10 years was
the person who also suggested mydissertation topic.
Josh Meeder (14:17):
Okay, and that dissertation topic? Well,
Kent Tonkin (14:20):
the dissertation topic was an exploration of the
impact of workplace policy onbereavement. And so I started
doing some some kind of minorresearch to say, how big is this
problem? And what I found isthere's not a lot of formal
research out there, but there'sa lot of popular articles you
look at, you know, any businessmagazine you can look at,
whether it's the Society forHuman Resource Management, or
(14:41):
Forbes or any of those popularbusiness magazines. Wow, this is
a real problem. The first thingthat really hit me in the United
States with the Family MedicalLeave Act, which guarantees
every full time person up to 12weeks of unpaid leave to take
care of themselves or somebodyelse who's suffering from a
medical condition. If thatperson Since a loved one dies,
(15:02):
FMLA doesn't apply anymore. Inthe United States, we have no
required time off forbereavement. Most people in the
United States will get betweentwo and five days off with the
biggest loss of their lives. AndJosh, you've been through it,
you know how these ripples goout and other parts of your
lives. Somebody loses a parenthas to deal with an estate. And
(15:26):
in addition to the mental stressand the grief and the sorrow,
minimum, it's going to take oneto two years to resolve those
estate issues. If you're notgetting paid time off, you can't
make it to government offices tobe able to get things like that.
So that's certificates. One ofthe big research studies,
actually by somebody inBlackburn and Oba Blackburn and
(15:47):
basalt, Bulsara indicated thatpeople were being re
traumatized, because they weregoing to government offices to
get death certificates becausetheir companies wanted
verification that their parenthad died. And so can you imagine
that you you're having to proveto your employer that you're not
lying about losing somebody whois that important to you. And so
(16:08):
that led to me doing aqualitative study, I interviewed
23 people to find out what theirexperiences had been like
bereavement in the workplace,how their their workplaces had
supported them, how the cultureof the employer had supported
them, how the rules of the gameeither applied or didn't, and
how that affected their opinionsof their employers. And, and
here's kind of the big results.
Your supervisor, your manager isthe absolute key to all of this
(16:32):
stuff. Many folks reported thattheir managers completely
disregarded policy to givepeople more time off and
flexible time. And that's kindof a good thing too, because
most people didn't even knowwhat their own bereavement
policies were in theircompanies. Supervisors can be
flexible, granting leavediscretionary leave, making sure
(16:53):
that people had what theyneeded, and that that leave
remained available over thecoming year. So the supervisor
is really the key person. Andfor reasons you might not
expect, the best thing that Ican also encourage employers to
think about is how they arehandling employees information
when they're sufferingbereavement. One of the biggest
(17:15):
things we noted in this studywas that individuals,
essentially were experiencedbereavement had sort of a polar
reaction to sharing in theworkplace. And here's what I
mean by that. There were twofolks who participated in the
study who both were at the backend of an all staff email
informing everybody about whatit happens, though, one person
(17:35):
thought it was the greatestthing ever, because it was a
gateway to more support from coworkers who would stop and check
on them, the other person felttheir privacy had been
completely violated, becausethey did not want to grieve at
work, they did not want to bringthat to work. They wanted to
treat their their workplace inoffice as a place of respite,
not a place where they wouldgrieve, and the employers
(17:57):
actions and sharing and severalother things ultimately led to
that individual leaving theiremployment because of the way
they've been treated. So it'sreally in the supervisors power
to say to someone when they'regoing through this terrible
event, let us know how you wantthis handle so that we can honor
your wishes. And so those aresome of the big findings.
(18:17):
There's lots of findings in thestudy. But the biggest one,
ultimately is your supervisorwill more often than not
determine the experience youhave with bereavement work.
Josh Meeder (18:29):
So from a company perspective, that is probably
one of the key touch points foremployee retention,
satisfaction, job satisfaction,and long term loyalty. There's
all the ancillary benefits, butthere's that human aspect. And
the piece that you brought up onthat two polar reactions is
something that is, if you'vebeen through grief, you can
(18:51):
understand it, but sometimes youdon't know what you need, but
you know what you don't like andto have someone there. Because
grief is such a wide emotionalprocess. Sometimes people in
grief can't feel it, and to havesomeone there that has a little
bit of training or the abilityto ask questions, and to listen
(19:12):
and to be present without tryingto fix it, I think is one of the
big pieces that is missing justin in personal interactions. But
certainly in in the business. Soit is the supervisors you know,
direct impact from from thesupervisor perspective. We
talked about this a little bit.
How do you train a supervisorbecause there's this is an
(19:34):
uncomfortable place for a lot ofpeople to speak. So in getting a
better bereavement processwithin a company? What are some
of the things that employers cando to support their staff and
their supervisors in deliveringit?
Kent Tonkin (19:50):
I think the companies should start looking
at this as something that shouldbe reinforced, maybe even on an
annual basis. Every year goodcompanies do things like sexual
harassment training, they dotraining for compliance for a
variety of things, depending onthe industry. And yet, we don't
talk about grief. And that'ssomething that's going to appear
literally in every singleworkplace, regardless of
(20:12):
industry. So giving managerseven a script to follow. And I
know that sounds may be a littlecold. But an idea of being when
something happens when you findout that an employee is dealing
with a bereavement or a loss,these are the questions you
should ask. And this is the wayyou shouldn't or interact with
that person. Not everybody canbe made to be comfortable with
(20:32):
his conversations. But theperson who is suffering loss, I
think, based on my research,will remember that at least
somebody in the organizationtook the time to ask them what
their wishes were to go throughthe process to let them know
what was available to them, andto step in and help them through
the process, or, conversely, toput their hands off, if that's
(20:53):
what the employee wants. I mean,I think the one thing that
employers probably also need tolook at is to have managers who
are aware of when we're lookingat a safety issue, for example,
if you were in a factoryenvironment, where a high stress
environment or medicalenvironment is somebody who is
dealing with a loss, mentallycapable of being in that work
environment without puttingthemselves or others at risk.
(21:16):
And so that would vary by workenvironment. The other thing I
would mention, there's, there'sa new and emerging industry
that's coming out now calledgrief coaching. And that's
essentially teaching people howto be better at helping others
grieve. There's a subset ofthat, that this I think,
fantastic. That's corporategrief coaching. So we actually
have people who are going outinto the workplace is consulting
(21:38):
with employers and saying, Thisis what should be in your
policy. This is what should bein your training. This is how
you can make sure these issuesdon't occur. And I think the
reason employers are open tolistening to this right now, the
latest Bureau of LaborStatistics stats, right now, our
labor force participation rate,in terms of 100% of Americans
who could work were about 63%.
And the unemployment rate ofthat 63% is about 4%. So we're
(22:00):
talking about 4% of 63% of thepopulation that can't find a
job, what that means. It's anemployee's market, it's tough to
get good people. And if you'relooking at an unemployment and
retention standpoint, you as anemployer, this is another tool
in your toolbox to ensure thosegood people who are coming to
(22:21):
work for you will stay, becausethey'll remember the kindness
you showed, I
Josh Meeder (22:26):
don't want to boil it down to the simple things,
but it is about doing the rightthing. And in the right thing
pays dividends for the employer.
And for the employee that longterm, that customer or the
employee appreciation, I've seenpeople in different
circumstances where when they'vehad an incredible employer that
steps up for him in a moment ofcrisis or need, that person will
(22:46):
stay there, even through betterjob offers, because the loyalty
and the the attachment they haveto those folks with the those
corporate Grief counselors, ordo they just help set policy or
are they're also available for acompany to bring in, in in times
(23:09):
of employee loss or grief.
Kent Tonkin (23:13):
It's kind of one of those industries, that's that
sort of going through thestorming, forming norming phase,
and the fact that there arepockets of this profession all
over the country right now. Andthey run the gamut. For example,
one of my colleagues really,truly does the corporate thing,
where she goes in and consultswith companies and is helping
them set policy and doing directtraining with managers. So
(23:36):
that's a very limited subset. Tobe honest with you. It's a it's
a field I'd like to get into,because it's new and emerging.
But then we go to the otherextreme, there are individuals
who will train people how to doone on one grief coaching, even
at an individual that hasnothing to do with work. So it
really is a new and emergingdiscipline. It's something that
companies are only now startingto see the value of. So it's a
(23:59):
it's a great field to get intoright now.
Josh Meeder (24:01):
If a CEO or some sort of leadership is listening
right now, from an employerstandpoint, what is the one?
What are the one or two thingsthat they could do to help start
developing the bereavementpolicy within their
organization? How would whatwould you suggest employers do
if they have a gap in this areacurrently?
Kent Tonkin (24:21):
Well, I would say that, and this is this is really
boiling it down. I would say twothings. Number one, look for
some of the resources that arealready out there. I work with a
group called evermore was anonprofit who is doing
government level advocacy forfor bereavement policy, but
every Moore's website, they havea number of policy
recommendations and documentsyou can get for free. That will
(24:43):
give you a starting point. Thesecond part of it, I would say
is talk with your employees. Andwhether it's putting together a
committee whether it's talkingto your managers, get people
together who aren't goingthrough this yet to talk about
what should be your policy, whatshould be your approach, what is
the best way to ensure that Areall your employees know what
your policies are? In reality?
The research backs up that mostpeople don't honestly abuse
(25:06):
bereavement policy. And I thinkso many employers are just
concerned if they are generouswith those policies that people
will try to get time offrepeatedly. And there will be
those folks, that is not themajority of people who are
dealing with this loss. Thisthese are my my two biggest
recommendations,
Josh Meeder (25:24):
touching a little bit on evermore. That's a good
segue. There's also some workthat you're following or
participating in on not just thepolicy side, but the legislative
slide side like so what whatneeds to happen from our
legislative and regulatoryenvironment to support
bereavement in the workplace?
Kent Tonkin (25:44):
I think that the focus on what my research
indicated is the focus on thelower rungs of the employment
ladder, people maybe who are newemployees or not as well
established in organizations,and they'll be blunt people who
are more entry level employeesare the ones who suffer the
most. And I think that whatmight really help. From a policy
standpoint, the ideal would benationally required paid
(26:06):
bereavement leave, in theabsence of that happening,
because it's a tough pill toswallow to ask government to
require more days off for a lotof people, even more flexibility
with the Family Medical LeaveAct. So that established policy
that we're all very familiarwith, and the companies know how
to mandate. I think those sortsof things can be adapted the
(26:27):
Family Medical Leave Act couldbe adapted to a lot of time off
for bereavement, too. So I thinkmaybe we need to look at
compromise between those twoextremes. I think paid
bereavement leave at the federallevel will be fantastic. But I
think as a great second option,some modification of FMLA would
make a lot of sense.
Josh Meeder (26:45):
Even at the paid federal level. I believe you
spoke there's really only onecountry that actually has
federalized bereavement policywhich is was was shocking to me
to hear if you
Kent Tonkin (26:56):
ever get a chance to meet this lady, her name is
Lucy herd, and she is a warriorshe she got paid bereavement
leave, passed through Parliamentin the UK, the UK is currently
the only country in the worldthat has required bereavement
leave for parents who eitherlose a pregnancy or a child. And
it was named Jack's law afterher son Jack who tragically died
in an accident. And so she is awarrior and she's an example for
(27:20):
the rest of the world, what canhappen.
Josh Meeder (27:22):
That's, that's amazing. Sometimes it just takes
one passionate person to ignitethat, that movement, he is
fierce. With all thisinformation. In the positive
side, we haven't really touchedon how the lack of or poor or
even policy can have justdisastrous impacts for the
(27:44):
person and for the employer. Anyexamples of what not to do?
Kent Tonkin (27:50):
Well, the old vernacular is that the road to
hell is paved with goodintentions. And I think the best
example, I can think of that inmy research, there was an
individual who had lost herfather, and had returned to
work. After returning to work,she was asked by her supervisor
to come to a meeting where theentire staff had gathered, and
in front of the entire staffpresented her with a father
(28:13):
daughter figurine to commemorateher father's loss. And that was
ultimately what drove her toleave the company she worked for
because she had specificallyasked that her last not be
fussed over in the workplacethat she had been not put in a
situation to be on display. Andthey did the exact opposite of
what she asked for. I can't evenimagine what that must have felt
(28:35):
like, especially being in thatraw, emotional place. That to me
is the best example I can thinkof how to completely disregard
your employees feelings.
Josh Meeder (28:45):
Also feels like there's probably some liability
opened up from an employeremployment standpoint, you know,
sharing private information whenyou were told, requested not to.
Kent Tonkin (28:58):
I think the reason we don't see more of that is
probably because people are insuch a raw emotional place,
they're more likely just toleave. And to say, rather than
open that wound a little moredeeply, what we're going to do
is just walk away. In fact, theother story I would say this is
this is a controversial topic,but the story needs to be told
because we need more research onthis aspect. One individual who
(29:20):
participated in my study hadsuffered several miscarriages at
work, not not during work, butwhile while she was working, her
employer refused to acknowledgeher miscarriage as a loss. And
again, that gets into thecontroversy surrounding
reproductive rights in thiscountry right now. But she was
denied leave and her supervisoreven instructed her that type of
(29:44):
abortive procedure that shethought she should have. And so
was was telling her how toterminate a pregnancy and how to
handle her loss. Now herparticular spiritual and
religious beliefs meant that sheneeded to carry the pregnancy to
terms and to deliver. When shereturned from what leaves, she
was able to cobble together frompaid time off and sick leave.
(30:08):
She was put on a performanceimprovement plan because her
supervisor had known that whileshe was dealing with a
miscarriage, her performancelevels have dropped off. And so
the takeaway message there is,regardless of the controversy
we're on right now, with thingslike reproductive rights, the
employers response of givingthat individual latitude to make
(30:30):
their own decisions, ultimatelywould have kept that person at
the company, she ended upleaving, because of the way she
had been treated. And it was acompany for which she had been
recruited heavily. And so So themessage there is give people
latitude in deciding what'simportant to them. It's
Josh Meeder (30:47):
just almost hard to hear that story. It just the
lack of humanity, the lack ofcompassion. That that's a tough
one. Yeah. And there's also theplace you touched on to earlier
that employers have aresponsibility to the safety and
the productivity of the rest ofthe company in their clients. So
(31:09):
it's when we spoke off offline,I really appreciated your
approach to the balance side ofthe employer as well. So it's,
it's not like they geteverything they need. But there
is a way in a discussion. Sohow, how do you see the
employers and the supervisors inthose situations where someone
is experiencing deep grief andloss and their performance may
(31:34):
may suffer for a little whileit's normal, I that was my
experience, you just can't getyour head in the game, nor
should you because you should behealing. So how, how from an
employment standpoint, do youbalance that line with employee
care and business requirements?
Kent Tonkin (31:49):
Well, obviously, they can't be carte blanche,
because sooner or later peoplehave to get back to work, we
have to do what we have to do. Ithink that employers however,
need to be a little bit morehands on and individualized with
their approaches to this stuff.
There might be the one extremeperson who whose grief is so
debilitating that maybe they'llnever come back and be who they
were before. And that happens,you know, unfortunately, that
(32:11):
person may need to start oversomewhere else. And I know
that's, that's an unfortunatereality to talk about. But most
people probably will fall out insome place less than that. And
the same level of patience thatemployers have had to apply over
the last two years during COVID,where we had to scramble,
sometimes to find people tostaff organizations and to be
(32:31):
present on site. I think thatwhat we're dealing with here is
probably not as bad as that. Sothe lessons we've learned in
terms of a little moreflexibility in humanity, even in
large, very rigid workenvironments, we need to apply
here. And sometimes that alsomeans large organizations may
have to adjust their ideas ofperformance to simply because
(32:52):
we've already seen that in thelast two and a half years of our
lives. So that's not a greatanswer. Because it's not
something it's a hard and fastanswer. But I think also, if you
get into grief coaching withinorganizations, that greater
awareness will really assistcompanies in being more
flexible, just the very factthat managers might actually be
(33:12):
a little more involved in thisprocess means we can have a more
individualized response to getpeople back work when they're
ready, and when it's safe forthem to be there.
Josh Meeder (33:23):
And just to follow up on that on the grief process,
it's not a linear processeither. So to get the employers
and employees themselves torecognize that there's an
intensity in the initial stages,then there's kind of a lull and
then you get those days, youknow, or those special
anniversaries that will creep upand, you know, just catch you
out of nowhere, or it could be asight or a sound or a smell, we
(33:46):
could be having a great day. Sothe process of grief is an
ongoing process.
Kent Tonkin (33:52):
And the funny thing about it is one of the worst
things to happen in a world ofbriefer open office spaces. And
in fact that Bauer and Murraydid this great study. And one of
the biggest problems we have isthat people in many modern
office layouts don't even have aprivate place to go when they're
having one of those days. So I'mlucky I've got an office, if
(34:13):
somebody's in an open officelayout. Much grieving is done in
modern America and bathroomsbecause there's no place else to
go to be able to lose it. Not infront of somebody. Right.
Josh Meeder (34:29):
Well, Ken, thank you for one taking the time and
for the work that you're doing.
Congratulations on defending andgetting that doctor out there.
You know, get those in thosecoveted initials. And just
closing anything else you'd liketo share with the audience or
tips for employers or employees.
anyone experiencing grief? Howwould you like to finish up
here?
Kent Tonkin (34:50):
I think I want to leave the audience with one
final point. Nobody's good atgrief. Nobody is an expert at
grief. If you find yourselfwondering what to say to
somebody who Is last somebodyThe best advice that can give
you go to them and tell themthat you're there. They might
not call on you, they may notcall you, they might not stop
and see you. But simply tellingsomebody, Hey, I'm here, I
(35:12):
acknowledged your loss. And ifyou need me, however you need
me, I'll be there for you.
That's the best thing in theworld you can do for somebody,
the two worst things you can doare to tell somebody you know
how they feel, because grief isso individually individually
focused. And the second is tojust avoid someone. And
unfortunately, because we'reuncomfortable with grief,
sometimes when people need usthe most, that's when we tend to
(35:33):
walk away from them. And itdoesn't mean we're bad people it
means it's something we don'tknow how to do. Right.
Josh Meeder (35:41):
Beautiful sentiments, and I'm going to add
one small piece to that is, inmy view, and my experience with
grief is to give someone who'sgrieving a lot of grace, they
may not be acting how theynormally do, you can't be in
their shoes. So give them somegrace show up, as you said, and
just be there. That's, that'sbeautiful. We need we need more
(36:01):
of that in the world here. Iagree in dress. Thanks so much
for sharing your story too, bythe way. Yeah, it's, you know,
it doesn't define you, but itcertainly steals the makeup a
little bit. And you know,looking back, you can survive
it, you can be stronger, and youcan turn grief, from an
overwhelming debilitating lossand sad depth to something that
(36:25):
is beautiful. And it's notnegating the loss, it's actually
honoring it. So I appreciate thestory. Ken, thank you again, and
I look forward to seeing ya ifyou are out in the western
Pennsylvania area or if they'retouring, I do suggest definitely
catch Jim Donovan in the SunKing warrior so you can see Ken
in his other naturalenvironment. And please do check
(36:48):
out some of the links here forthe organizations that Ken's
mentioned support where you canand openness discussion with
your employees and employeesemployers. Thanks, everyone.
Thank you. I hope you've enjoyedthis episode of the great things
LLC podcast. If you did, be sureto share the link with this
episode with your friends, andshare it to your social media
(37:09):
with your biggest takeawaytagging me a great things LLC.
Make sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode. There's
so much more to come. You cansupport me by leaving a rating
and a review of the show andthat will help others to find
their purpose, dream,collaborate and create their own
success story. Until next time,this is Josh Meeder your host
signing off
Welcome to the great things LLC podcast, the
show that celebrates people whoare making an impact on the
world, people creating consciousbusinesses that are in alignment
with their own personal values.
Each episode shares the wisdomexperience and the intentions of
those that are following theirdreams. visionaries who have
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and abundance while helpingothers. Whether you're already a
(00:23):
trailblazer, or still searchingfor your path, the stories will
inspire your worth being thebest version of yourself.
Welcome, listeners. today'spodcast is one that hits very
close to the heart. And it hassomething that all of us
experienced throughout ourlifetime. And it is talking
about grief, bereavement lossand healing from that. Today's
(00:44):
guest is a good friend and justa wonderful gentleman in it is
Dr. Ken Tonkin. Ken, welcome tothe program.
Kent Tonkin (00:54):
Oh, Josh, thanks so much for having me.
Josh Meeder (00:57):
So can't we'll just give you the credentials here a
little bit. So you are anassistant professor at the St.
Francis university with theSchool of Business and I see you
have dual appointments in boththe human resource management
and MIS system. You're also aphenomenal musician for one of
my favorite bands, Jim Donovanand the Sun King warriors. So
(01:17):
you you've done a lot. But herewe are today, and you are seated
at the at the college officethere.
Kent Tonkin (01:24):
Yeah, I'm here in my office. Today I'll be meeting
with students when we're donewith our interview today, let's
just
Josh Meeder (01:28):
start this discussion by identifying what
is grief, because it's differentfor so many and how it touches
people.
Kent Tonkin (01:36):
But grief often gets lumped in with the world of
mental illness. And theimportant thing to realize is
grief is not a mental illness,Grief is a natural response to
loss. Now, as you aptly state,everybody experiences grief in a
different way. Sometimes griefcan go for longer periods for
different people, it never getsthe title of mental illness
(01:57):
until it starts to become animpediment to your normal
functioning over a long periodof time. It's natural, it's part
of life, because everybody andeverything dies. And so how we
respond to it is really up to usindividually. And again, it's
something that we don't reallyintegrate well into our daily
lives in Western culture.
Josh Meeder (02:18):
In grief, while we're talking about specifically
here today, the bereavementprocess and the policies around
that grief can also come in alot of different forms. It is
from the loss of a loved one, itcan be from the loss of a
relationship, it could be from achange of career abandonment,
health diagnosis, it could beliterally moving on to a better
place in life because you'regrieving what's known. So while
(02:41):
it comes in different forms,sometimes that process may feel
similar. Would you feel the sameon that? I'd give
Kent Tonkin (02:47):
you the agree. And I think right now in 2022, the
reason we're also cognizant ofgrief, people quite literally
have lost loved ones during thecourse of the pandemic. But at
the same time, we're alsogrieving the lives we had
before. When we could just goout and do anything we want it
without really thinking aboutit, going to a concert, go into
a shopping mall, eating dinner,those things are things we don't
(03:09):
take for granted now because welost them or had the modified
physician on time.
Josh Meeder (03:14):
Yeah, thank you. I feel that and I think that's a
piece that's missed. But let'stalk about, we'll share both of
our stories because you and I'veparallel on some things on on
some loss. So let's let's startat the beginning can't use you
suffered a lot of loss. Veryearly on, if you would share
(03:36):
your story, to give thelisteners some context here.
Sure.
Kent Tonkin (03:40):
I am very open with my background. I have a twin
brother, we were estranged fromour father, our mother and
father were not married. And myfather passed when I was about
six, I have no no memory of him.
And his place was filled by anuncle who became like a
surrogate father to me. My unclepassed when when I was in
seventh grade, followed tearslater by my mother. And so then
(04:01):
my grandmother who had been ourcaregiver, and the person who
had filled in for my mom passedwhen I was a year out of college
and went by the time I wentbetween the ages of six and 22,
other than my brother, everybodywho was in the house I had grown
up with had passed away. And sowe really experienced a lot of
(04:22):
loss very quickly. Some of thecomplications from that. I mean,
obviously, loss is tough. Butwhen you're going through the
1980s, before we had greaterawareness of integrating these
kinds of experiences, I rememberduring none of these losses did
anybody in my schooladministration ever talked to
me? Counselor never talked tous. We were never put into any
(04:43):
kind of program. The best Irecall is our family doctor when
my mom passed offering mybrother and I tranquilizers,
not, not things that wereproactive but basically you can
dull the pain and what weexperienced I think it's kids
When my brother got into a lotof destructive behavior that led
me on the path to becomesomebody who worked constantly
(05:05):
somebody who became addicted todoing more things all the time
to shut down my own feelingsreally derailed my personal life
in my relationships. Because Idid not have a successful shot
at integrating grief until muchlater on in my life. What I
credit to saving my existence,was getting involved in
volunteerism, particularly witha group called the healing patch
(05:27):
where I started working withwith grieving teenagers, that
was the age group I was pairedwith, and having a chance to
intervene. And to work withthese kids, when they were in
the same shoes I was in fixed apart of my heart that I cannot
even put into words, sometimesit's it was really what saved my
life and put me on the course tobeing a positive person today
who can talk about these things.
(05:50):
That's that's a really kind ofcondensed version of what
happened. But yeah, I walked insome awesome weird shoes for a
substantial part of my life.
Josh Meeder (05:59):
I understand that.
And I'll share a little mystory, one of the things that I
felt I felt the connection and asimilarity is one being of the
same age in the same generation,there wasn't the awareness. And
even still, today, people areuncomfortable on talking about
grief. My first experience withgrief or loss was my great
grandfather who I was born onhis birthday. On Father's Day, I
(06:19):
share his name. And so we hadthis beautiful connection, first
great grandson, and he passedwhen I was, I think I was nine
or 10. So that was the firstexperience. And then my father
passed in when I was in college,and in my senior year, and the
school did what they could, butthere wasn't anything for the
bereavement part of it, I had aunique situation where I
(06:42):
actually had to start workingand take over my father's
insurance agency and completeschools, they moved my schedule
around, which was tremendouslyhelpful. So I could work three
days a week and finish schoolthree, finish working three days
a week to get the agencyrunning, which was helpful, but
there was no emotional supportthere. And then, six years ago,
I had I was in relationship andmy partner passed unexpectedly.
(07:04):
And to that point, I kinda likeyou as like, well, I buried
myself in work, I was, you know,go go go, especially at 21 I
didn't have the emotional skillsets, nor did I have the outside
support. Unfortunately, on thislast loss with my partner, I had
some really good folks around meand some really good healing
(07:25):
modalities that helped turn andput my life into a whole
different directory, which I'mhere now. But those resources
really aren't available for manyout there. And there's such a
such a distaste or like,uncomfortableness, being able to
talk about death or loss in insociety or in workplaces. So
(07:46):
with that, you found your yourhealing, your healing started by
helping others in that position.
So you shared your story withme. But the story of the healing
patch is a beautiful, beautifulstory. So I'd like to go into
that. How did you first getintroduced to that healing patch
(08:08):
who put you in that place?
Kent Tonkin (08:10):
I like to say sometimes the universe has to
hit you in the head pretty hardbefore you listen. And I had
seen a flyer here at St. Francisfor a group called the healing
patch and had kind of blown itoff it was I'd heard about this
grief mentoring service andthought, well, that's not
something I want to get involvedin. And it took two or three
different people mentioning itdirectly to me who knew my
(08:31):
story, before I finally calledthe coordinator and said, I'd
really like to come down and seethis place. I met the
coordinator. Her name was AlisonStockley. And at that time,
within three minutes of meetingher, I knew that I needed to be
a part of it. Their model is nottherapy, their model is having
kids split up into into groupsbased on age and maturity. And
(08:52):
these kids build their own peerbonds and peer networks. And the
idea being kind of the model is,look, I know you're in a place
similar to me, I got you. If youneed to talk I can be there for
you. We as the adults in theroom are facilitators, we're not
counselors, we create the formfor the kids to build the
connections themselves. And oneof the most beautiful parts
(09:12):
about this model, there's aseparate room for the adults, if
there are surviving adults, theyare able to talk to other adults
who are trying to raise kids asnow similar caregivers in many
cases, and trying to healthemselves. I've got to share
this story. This is what healinglooks like. And this is what it
means to heal in your community.
There was a gentleman who hadlost his wife and had a young
(09:33):
daughter and his daughter wascrying before school every day
because mom was no longer thereto braid her hair. And the
ladies in the adult room taughtthis man how to braid his
daughter's hair. And I don'tknow if there's a better
allegory for peer mentoring andhealing than that story.
Josh Meeder (09:51):
Beautiful like what an awareness in a simple act
like you can't fix grief. Youcan only support the person
through the process and That'swhat that that daughter needed.
What a beautiful story. Now,you, you so you got in and you
started to mentor some of thesekids, there was a place where
that got deeper where you becamemore active within the
(10:12):
organization itself. And somefundraising
Kent Tonkin (10:15):
we want to happen was because this is a nonprofit
organization that was part atthat time have a home health
care group. And they were facingbudget cuts. And a group of us
knew about this. And what theywere looking at cutting off at
the beginning of every sessionwas a communal meal. And that's
so important, because it'sbreaking bread together and
saying, we can have this time toget in and know each other a
(10:37):
little before we get into theheavy lifting, when they're
gonna have to cut the meals. Anda bunch of us got together and
said, This is unacceptable. We,if they're facing budget cuts,
we can raise some money, we puttogether a concert, got a few
bands together felt we'd make1200 bucks to buy a few pizzas
for the year. And our firstyear, we raised $5,000. The
(10:58):
second year we did it, wethought we'll make $5,000 this
year and before expenses, wemade $12,000. And by the third
year, we had to form a nonprofitbecause we were moving too much
money around to simply becarrying bags of money to give
people to buy pizza. And thatled to patch together
Incorporated. And since 2011,since our first year when we
were not officially inexistence, we've now raised over
(11:20):
$130,000, since 2011, to be ableto ensure that those resources
are available to kids who needthem. So that was how, that's
how I got into the world ofnonprofit but by necessity,
we're moving too much money.
Josh Meeder (11:32):
Oh, you know, not a problem that most early stage
nonprofits have. So that's agood thing. How many in that
timeframe? would you estimate?
How many kids? Have you impactedor had touchpoints? With?
Kent Tonkin (11:45):
That's a really good question. I would say,
literally, we're probably in the1000s at this point. And keep in
mind, this is a small community,we're in small rural parts of
Pennsylvania. And there are twolocations, one in Cambria, one
in Blair County that have largeoutreach. What had happened,
though, Josh, over the lastseveral years, prior to COVID,
the service has started gettingmaxed out, because of the high
(12:07):
amount of opioid deaths inCentral PA. And after COVID hit
all of a sudden, a lot of thesekids COVID overtook opioids as
the number one source ofparental death. And the services
at this point, they're at timesthere are a waiting list because
there's such a demand for theservices. And it's really, the
(12:28):
folks coordinate this programare doing a lot with
Josh Meeder (12:31):
a little. That's amazing. So we will drop the
link and information in thedescription here. So if this
story moves, you, please feelfree to encourage you to go
support the healing patch in thegreat work they're doing. So
we'll drop that there. So atthis point, Ken, what what age
were you when you got involvedin this? And because in how did
(12:54):
you move into the educationsystem and moving on towards
ultimately the bereavementdoctorial work you've done?
Kent Tonkin (13:00):
Well, I was in my middle 30s When I discovered the
healing patch, and again, hadhad a series of failed
relationships in my wake,because of my inability to
integrate grief got into thehealing patch and my middle 30s.
And by 2011 actually breakbefore it turned 40 is when we
started doing the fundraisingpiece. And it kind of parallel
because I had a career change.
When I was 30. Actually no I wasI was 4040 years old. When I
(13:23):
started teaching 41 Actually,when I switched from from
working in a corporate job toteaching full time. And so it
kind of paralleled in terms ofthe transition into the
nonprofit world that transitioninto teaching. And that led to
doctoral work. And the work I'vebeen doing as a volunteer kind
of all of a sudden became mydoctoral thesis to the person
(13:44):
who who spurred me on her nameis Melody Ray. She's the current
coordinator of the healingpatch. And during one of our
conversations said to me, Well,if you're doing research
involving organizations, haveyou ever looked at bereavement
policy? And again, sometimes theuniverse has to hit you in the
head? And I said, Wow, no, Ihadn't thought of that. But I
probably should. And so theperson who coordinates that
(14:07):
organization that had beensupporting for over 10 years was
the person who also suggested mydissertation topic.
Josh Meeder (14:17):
Okay, and that dissertation topic? Well,
Kent Tonkin (14:20):
the dissertation topic was an exploration of the
impact of workplace policy onbereavement. And so I started
doing some some kind of minorresearch to say, how big is this
problem? And what I found isthere's not a lot of formal
research out there, but there'sa lot of popular articles you
look at, you know, any businessmagazine you can look at,
whether it's the Society forHuman Resource Management, or
(14:41):
Forbes or any of those popularbusiness magazines. Wow, this is
a real problem. The first thingthat really hit me in the United
States with the Family MedicalLeave Act, which guarantees
every full time person up to 12weeks of unpaid leave to take
care of themselves or somebodyelse who's suffering from a
medical condition. If thatperson Since a loved one dies,
(15:02):
FMLA doesn't apply anymore. Inthe United States, we have no
required time off forbereavement. Most people in the
United States will get betweentwo and five days off with the
biggest loss of their lives. AndJosh, you've been through it,
you know how these ripples goout and other parts of your
lives. Somebody loses a parenthas to deal with an estate. And
(15:26):
in addition to the mental stressand the grief and the sorrow,
minimum, it's going to take oneto two years to resolve those
estate issues. If you're notgetting paid time off, you can't
make it to government offices tobe able to get things like that.
So that's certificates. One ofthe big research studies,
actually by somebody inBlackburn and Oba Blackburn and
(15:47):
basalt, Bulsara indicated thatpeople were being re
traumatized, because they weregoing to government offices to
get death certificates becausetheir companies wanted
verification that their parenthad died. And so can you imagine
that you you're having to proveto your employer that you're not
lying about losing somebody whois that important to you. And so
(16:08):
that led to me doing aqualitative study, I interviewed
23 people to find out what theirexperiences had been like
bereavement in the workplace,how their their workplaces had
supported them, how the cultureof the employer had supported
them, how the rules of the gameeither applied or didn't, and
how that affected their opinionsof their employers. And, and
here's kind of the big results.
Your supervisor, your manager isthe absolute key to all of this
(16:32):
stuff. Many folks reported thattheir managers completely
disregarded policy to givepeople more time off and
flexible time. And that's kindof a good thing too, because
most people didn't even knowwhat their own bereavement
policies were in theircompanies. Supervisors can be
flexible, granting leavediscretionary leave, making sure
(16:53):
that people had what theyneeded, and that that leave
remained available over thecoming year. So the supervisor
is really the key person. Andfor reasons you might not
expect, the best thing that Ican also encourage employers to
think about is how they arehandling employees information
when they're sufferingbereavement. One of the biggest
(17:15):
things we noted in this studywas that individuals,
essentially were experiencedbereavement had sort of a polar
reaction to sharing in theworkplace. And here's what I
mean by that. There were twofolks who participated in the
study who both were at the backend of an all staff email
informing everybody about whatit happens, though, one person
(17:35):
thought it was the greatestthing ever, because it was a
gateway to more support from coworkers who would stop and check
on them, the other person felttheir privacy had been
completely violated, becausethey did not want to grieve at
work, they did not want to bringthat to work. They wanted to
treat their their workplace inoffice as a place of respite,
not a place where they wouldgrieve, and the employers
(17:57):
actions and sharing and severalother things ultimately led to
that individual leaving theiremployment because of the way
they've been treated. So it'sreally in the supervisors power
to say to someone when they'regoing through this terrible
event, let us know how you wantthis handle so that we can honor
your wishes. And so those aresome of the big findings.
(18:17):
There's lots of findings in thestudy. But the biggest one,
ultimately is your supervisorwill more often than not
determine the experience youhave with bereavement work.
Josh Meeder (18:29):
So from a company perspective, that is probably
one of the key touch points foremployee retention,
satisfaction, job satisfaction,and long term loyalty. There's
all the ancillary benefits, butthere's that human aspect. And
the piece that you brought up onthat two polar reactions is
something that is, if you'vebeen through grief, you can
(18:51):
understand it, but sometimes youdon't know what you need, but
you know what you don't like andto have someone there. Because
grief is such a wide emotionalprocess. Sometimes people in
grief can't feel it, and to havesomeone there that has a little
bit of training or the abilityto ask questions, and to listen
(19:12):
and to be present without tryingto fix it, I think is one of the
big pieces that is missing justin in personal interactions. But
certainly in in the business. Soit is the supervisors you know,
direct impact from from thesupervisor perspective. We
talked about this a little bit.
How do you train a supervisorbecause there's this is an
(19:34):
uncomfortable place for a lot ofpeople to speak. So in getting a
better bereavement processwithin a company? What are some
of the things that employers cando to support their staff and
their supervisors in deliveringit?
Kent Tonkin (19:50):
I think the companies should start looking
at this as something that shouldbe reinforced, maybe even on an
annual basis. Every year goodcompanies do things like sexual
harassment training, they dotraining for compliance for a
variety of things, depending onthe industry. And yet, we don't
talk about grief. And that'ssomething that's going to appear
literally in every singleworkplace, regardless of
(20:12):
industry. So giving managerseven a script to follow. And I
know that sounds may be a littlecold. But an idea of being when
something happens when you findout that an employee is dealing
with a bereavement or a loss,these are the questions you
should ask. And this is the wayyou shouldn't or interact with
that person. Not everybody canbe made to be comfortable with
(20:32):
his conversations. But theperson who is suffering loss, I
think, based on my research,will remember that at least
somebody in the organizationtook the time to ask them what
their wishes were to go throughthe process to let them know
what was available to them, andto step in and help them through
the process, or, conversely, toput their hands off, if that's
(20:53):
what the employee wants. I mean,I think the one thing that
employers probably also need tolook at is to have managers who
are aware of when we're lookingat a safety issue, for example,
if you were in a factoryenvironment, where a high stress
environment or medicalenvironment is somebody who is
dealing with a loss, mentallycapable of being in that work
environment without puttingthemselves or others at risk.
(21:16):
And so that would vary by workenvironment. The other thing I
would mention, there's, there'sa new and emerging industry
that's coming out now calledgrief coaching. And that's
essentially teaching people howto be better at helping others
grieve. There's a subset ofthat, that this I think,
fantastic. That's corporategrief coaching. So we actually
have people who are going outinto the workplace is consulting
(21:38):
with employers and saying, Thisis what should be in your
policy. This is what should bein your training. This is how
you can make sure these issuesdon't occur. And I think the
reason employers are open tolistening to this right now, the
latest Bureau of LaborStatistics stats, right now, our
labor force participation rate,in terms of 100% of Americans
who could work were about 63%.
And the unemployment rate ofthat 63% is about 4%. So we're
(22:00):
talking about 4% of 63% of thepopulation that can't find a
job, what that means. It's anemployee's market, it's tough to
get good people. And if you'relooking at an unemployment and
retention standpoint, you as anemployer, this is another tool
in your toolbox to ensure thosegood people who are coming to
(22:21):
work for you will stay, becausethey'll remember the kindness
you showed, I
Josh Meeder (22:26):
don't want to boil it down to the simple things,
but it is about doing the rightthing. And in the right thing
pays dividends for the employer.
And for the employee that longterm, that customer or the
employee appreciation, I've seenpeople in different
circumstances where when they'vehad an incredible employer that
steps up for him in a moment ofcrisis or need, that person will
(22:46):
stay there, even through betterjob offers, because the loyalty
and the the attachment they haveto those folks with the those
corporate Grief counselors, ordo they just help set policy or
are they're also available for acompany to bring in, in in times
(23:09):
of employee loss or grief.
Kent Tonkin (23:13):
It's kind of one of those industries, that's that
sort of going through thestorming, forming norming phase,
and the fact that there arepockets of this profession all
over the country right now. Andthey run the gamut. For example,
one of my colleagues really,truly does the corporate thing,
where she goes in and consultswith companies and is helping
them set policy and doing directtraining with managers. So
(23:36):
that's a very limited subset. Tobe honest with you. It's a it's
a field I'd like to get into,because it's new and emerging.
But then we go to the otherextreme, there are individuals
who will train people how to doone on one grief coaching, even
at an individual that hasnothing to do with work. So it
really is a new and emergingdiscipline. It's something that
companies are only now startingto see the value of. So it's a
(23:59):
it's a great field to get intoright now.
Josh Meeder (24:01):
If a CEO or some sort of leadership is listening
right now, from an employerstandpoint, what is the one?
What are the one or two thingsthat they could do to help start
developing the bereavementpolicy within their
organization? How would whatwould you suggest employers do
if they have a gap in this areacurrently?
Kent Tonkin (24:21):
Well, I would say that, and this is this is really
boiling it down. I would say twothings. Number one, look for
some of the resources that arealready out there. I work with a
group called evermore was anonprofit who is doing
government level advocacy forfor bereavement policy, but
every Moore's website, they havea number of policy
recommendations and documentsyou can get for free. That will
(24:43):
give you a starting point. Thesecond part of it, I would say
is talk with your employees. Andwhether it's putting together a
committee whether it's talkingto your managers, get people
together who aren't goingthrough this yet to talk about
what should be your policy, whatshould be your approach, what is
the best way to ensure that Areall your employees know what
your policies are? In reality?
The research backs up that mostpeople don't honestly abuse
(25:06):
bereavement policy. And I thinkso many employers are just
concerned if they are generouswith those policies that people
will try to get time offrepeatedly. And there will be
those folks, that is not themajority of people who are
dealing with this loss. Thisthese are my my two biggest
recommendations,
Josh Meeder (25:24):
touching a little bit on evermore. That's a good
segue. There's also some workthat you're following or
participating in on not just thepolicy side, but the legislative
slide side like so what whatneeds to happen from our
legislative and regulatoryenvironment to support
bereavement in the workplace?
Kent Tonkin (25:44):
I think that the focus on what my research
indicated is the focus on thelower rungs of the employment
ladder, people maybe who are newemployees or not as well
established in organizations,and they'll be blunt people who
are more entry level employeesare the ones who suffer the
most. And I think that whatmight really help. From a policy
standpoint, the ideal would benationally required paid
(26:06):
bereavement leave, in theabsence of that happening,
because it's a tough pill toswallow to ask government to
require more days off for a lotof people, even more flexibility
with the Family Medical LeaveAct. So that established policy
that we're all very familiarwith, and the companies know how
to mandate. I think those sortsof things can be adapted the
(26:27):
Family Medical Leave Act couldbe adapted to a lot of time off
for bereavement, too. So I thinkmaybe we need to look at
compromise between those twoextremes. I think paid
bereavement leave at the federallevel will be fantastic. But I
think as a great second option,some modification of FMLA would
make a lot of sense.
Josh Meeder (26:45):
Even at the paid federal level. I believe you
spoke there's really only onecountry that actually has
federalized bereavement policywhich is was was shocking to me
to hear if you
Kent Tonkin (26:56):
ever get a chance to meet this lady, her name is
Lucy herd, and she is a warriorshe she got paid bereavement
leave, passed through Parliamentin the UK, the UK is currently
the only country in the worldthat has required bereavement
leave for parents who eitherlose a pregnancy or a child. And
it was named Jack's law afterher son Jack who tragically died
in an accident. And so she is awarrior and she's an example for
(27:20):
the rest of the world, what canhappen.
Josh Meeder (27:22):
That's, that's amazing. Sometimes it just takes
one passionate person to ignitethat, that movement, he is
fierce. With all thisinformation. In the positive
side, we haven't really touchedon how the lack of or poor or
even policy can have justdisastrous impacts for the
(27:44):
person and for the employer. Anyexamples of what not to do?
Kent Tonkin (27:50):
Well, the old vernacular is that the road to
hell is paved with goodintentions. And I think the best
example, I can think of that inmy research, there was an
individual who had lost herfather, and had returned to
work. After returning to work,she was asked by her supervisor
to come to a meeting where theentire staff had gathered, and
in front of the entire staffpresented her with a father
(28:13):
daughter figurine to commemorateher father's loss. And that was
ultimately what drove her toleave the company she worked for
because she had specificallyasked that her last not be
fussed over in the workplacethat she had been not put in a
situation to be on display. Andthey did the exact opposite of
what she asked for. I can't evenimagine what that must have felt
(28:35):
like, especially being in thatraw, emotional place. That to me
is the best example I can thinkof how to completely disregard
your employees feelings.
Josh Meeder (28:45):
Also feels like there's probably some liability
opened up from an employeremployment standpoint, you know,
sharing private information whenyou were told, requested not to.
Kent Tonkin (28:58):
I think the reason we don't see more of that is
probably because people are insuch a raw emotional place,
they're more likely just toleave. And to say, rather than
open that wound a little moredeeply, what we're going to do
is just walk away. In fact, theother story I would say this is
this is a controversial topic,but the story needs to be told
because we need more research onthis aspect. One individual who
(29:20):
participated in my study hadsuffered several miscarriages at
work, not not during work, butwhile while she was working, her
employer refused to acknowledgeher miscarriage as a loss. And
again, that gets into thecontroversy surrounding
reproductive rights in thiscountry right now. But she was
denied leave and her supervisoreven instructed her that type of
(29:44):
abortive procedure that shethought she should have. And so
was was telling her how toterminate a pregnancy and how to
handle her loss. Now herparticular spiritual and
religious beliefs meant that sheneeded to carry the pregnancy to
terms and to deliver. When shereturned from what leaves, she
was able to cobble together frompaid time off and sick leave.
(30:08):
She was put on a performanceimprovement plan because her
supervisor had known that whileshe was dealing with a
miscarriage, her performancelevels have dropped off. And so
the takeaway message there is,regardless of the controversy
we're on right now, with thingslike reproductive rights, the
employers response of givingthat individual latitude to make
(30:30):
their own decisions, ultimatelywould have kept that person at
the company, she ended upleaving, because of the way she
had been treated. And it was acompany for which she had been
recruited heavily. And so So themessage there is give people
latitude in deciding what'simportant to them. It's
Josh Meeder (30:47):
just almost hard to hear that story. It just the
lack of humanity, the lack ofcompassion. That that's a tough
one. Yeah. And there's also theplace you touched on to earlier
that employers have aresponsibility to the safety and
the productivity of the rest ofthe company in their clients. So
(31:09):
it's when we spoke off offline,I really appreciated your
approach to the balance side ofthe employer as well. So it's,
it's not like they geteverything they need. But there
is a way in a discussion. Sohow, how do you see the
employers and the supervisors inthose situations where someone
is experiencing deep grief andloss and their performance may
(31:34):
may suffer for a little whileit's normal, I that was my
experience, you just can't getyour head in the game, nor
should you because you should behealing. So how, how from an
employment standpoint, do youbalance that line with employee
care and business requirements?
Kent Tonkin (31:49):
Well, obviously, they can't be carte blanche,
because sooner or later peoplehave to get back to work, we
have to do what we have to do. Ithink that employers however,
need to be a little bit morehands on and individualized with
their approaches to this stuff.
There might be the one extremeperson who whose grief is so
debilitating that maybe they'llnever come back and be who they
were before. And that happens,you know, unfortunately, that
(32:11):
person may need to start oversomewhere else. And I know
that's, that's an unfortunatereality to talk about. But most
people probably will fall out insome place less than that. And
the same level of patience thatemployers have had to apply over
the last two years during COVID,where we had to scramble,
sometimes to find people tostaff organizations and to be
(32:31):
present on site. I think thatwhat we're dealing with here is
probably not as bad as that. Sothe lessons we've learned in
terms of a little moreflexibility in humanity, even in
large, very rigid workenvironments, we need to apply
here. And sometimes that alsomeans large organizations may
have to adjust their ideas ofperformance to simply because
(32:52):
we've already seen that in thelast two and a half years of our
lives. So that's not a greatanswer. Because it's not
something it's a hard and fastanswer. But I think also, if you
get into grief coaching withinorganizations, that greater
awareness will really assistcompanies in being more
flexible, just the very factthat managers might actually be
(33:12):
a little more involved in thisprocess means we can have a more
individualized response to getpeople back work when they're
ready, and when it's safe forthem to be there.
Josh Meeder (33:23):
And just to follow up on that on the grief process,
it's not a linear processeither. So to get the employers
and employees themselves torecognize that there's an
intensity in the initial stages,then there's kind of a lull and
then you get those days, youknow, or those special
anniversaries that will creep upand, you know, just catch you
out of nowhere, or it could be asight or a sound or a smell, we
(33:46):
could be having a great day. Sothe process of grief is an
ongoing process.
Kent Tonkin (33:52):
And the funny thing about it is one of the worst
things to happen in a world ofbriefer open office spaces. And
in fact that Bauer and Murraydid this great study. And one of
the biggest problems we have isthat people in many modern
office layouts don't even have aprivate place to go when they're
having one of those days. So I'mlucky I've got an office, if
(34:13):
somebody's in an open officelayout. Much grieving is done in
modern America and bathroomsbecause there's no place else to
go to be able to lose it. Not infront of somebody. Right.
Josh Meeder (34:29):
Well, Ken, thank you for one taking the time and
for the work that you're doing.
Congratulations on defending andgetting that doctor out there.
You know, get those in thosecoveted initials. And just
closing anything else you'd liketo share with the audience or
tips for employers or employees.
anyone experiencing grief? Howwould you like to finish up
here?
Kent Tonkin (34:50):
I think I want to leave the audience with one
final point. Nobody's good atgrief. Nobody is an expert at
grief. If you find yourselfwondering what to say to
somebody who Is last somebodyThe best advice that can give
you go to them and tell themthat you're there. They might
not call on you, they may notcall you, they might not stop
and see you. But simply tellingsomebody, Hey, I'm here, I
(35:12):
acknowledged your loss. And ifyou need me, however you need
me, I'll be there for you.
That's the best thing in theworld you can do for somebody,
the two worst things you can doare to tell somebody you know
how they feel, because grief isso individually individually
focused. And the second is tojust avoid someone. And
unfortunately, because we'reuncomfortable with grief,
sometimes when people need usthe most, that's when we tend to
(35:33):
walk away from them. And itdoesn't mean we're bad people it
means it's something we don'tknow how to do. Right.
Josh Meeder (35:41):
Beautiful sentiments, and I'm going to add
one small piece to that is, inmy view, and my experience with
grief is to give someone who'sgrieving a lot of grace, they
may not be acting how theynormally do, you can't be in
their shoes. So give them somegrace show up, as you said, and
just be there. That's, that'sbeautiful. We need we need more
(36:01):
of that in the world here. Iagree in dress. Thanks so much
for sharing your story too, bythe way. Yeah, it's, you know,
it doesn't define you, but itcertainly steals the makeup a
little bit. And you know,looking back, you can survive
it, you can be stronger, and youcan turn grief, from an
overwhelming debilitating lossand sad depth to something that
(36:25):
is beautiful. And it's notnegating the loss, it's actually
honoring it. So I appreciate thestory. Ken, thank you again, and
I look forward to seeing ya ifyou are out in the western
Pennsylvania area or if they'retouring, I do suggest definitely
catch Jim Donovan in the SunKing warrior so you can see Ken
in his other naturalenvironment. And please do check
(36:48):
out some of the links here forthe organizations that Ken's
mentioned support where you canand openness discussion with
your employees and employeesemployers. Thanks, everyone.
Thank you. I hope you've enjoyedthis episode of the great things
LLC podcast. If you did, be sureto share the link with this
episode with your friends, andshare it to your social media
(37:09):
with your biggest takeawaytagging me a great things LLC.
Make sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode. There's
so much more to come. You cansupport me by leaving a rating
and a review of the show andthat will help others to find
their purpose, dream,collaborate and create their own
success story. Until next time,this is Josh Meeder your host
signing off
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