July 28, 2024 • 39 mins
Welcome to the Great Things LLC Podcast, where we celebrate individuals making an impact through conscious business practices aligned with personal values. Hosted by Josh Meeder, this show features visionaries who have found their purpose and created joy and abundance while helping others. Whether you're an established trailblazer or still seeking your path, these stories will inspire you to be the best version of yourself.
In this episode, Josh Meeder interviews the multifaceted Frankie Rollins, a former academic turned author, writing coach, and entrepreneur. Frankie shares her journey from teaching at a community college to founding the Fifth Brain Creative Collective. Her passion for helping others through writing and creativity shines through as she discusses the transformative power of storytelling and self-expression.
Introduction to Frankie Rollins
Frankie has authored several books, including "The Greek Madness Manuscript," "Running Wild," "The Sin Eater and Other Stories," and her latest work, "Do You Feel Like Writing? A Creative Guide to Artistic Confidence."
The Pandemic as a Catalyst for Change
Frankie reflects on her life in Tucson, Arizona, during the early days of the pandemic. She shares the profound impact of teaching creative writing online while coping with personal loss and isolation. These experiences led her to reevaluate her career and ultimately leave academia to start her own business.
The Birth of Fifth Brain Creative Collective
Discover how Frankie’s experiences during the pandemic inspired her to create the Fifth Brain Creative Collective, a business focused on supporting people in their creative writing journeys. She discusses the significance of collaboration, conversation, and weekly support in fostering creativity and healing.
Overcoming Fear and Embracing Creativity
Frankie addresses the common fears and obstacles aspiring writers face, such as impostor syndrome and the fear of being selfish. She emphasizes the importance of giving oneself permission to write and the therapeutic benefits of creative expression.
Success Stories from the Fifth Brain Creative Collective
Hear inspiring stories of Frankie’s clients who have overcome significant personal challenges through writing. From a trauma survivor writing her first sophisticated essay to an agoraphobic client who published a short story nationally, Frankie illustrates the profound impact of creative coaching.
The Importance of Process Over Outcome
Josh and Frankie discuss the value of focusing on the creative process rather than the outcome. They highlight how perfectionism can stifle creativity and stress the importance of embracing the journey of self-discovery and growth.
Writing as a Tool for Healing
Frankie shares her belief that writing is a powerful tool for healing and self-awareness. She encourages listeners to explore their experiences and emotions through writing, emphasizing that the act of creating can lead to profound personal transformation.
Practical Tips for Aspiring Writers
Frankie offers practical advice for those interested in writing, including starting with simple prompts, embracing the learning process, and finding delight in creative expression. She also discusses the role of writing in processing difficult emotions and experiences.
What’s Next for Frankie and Fifth Brain Creative Collective
Learn about Frankie’s plans for expanding her business, including new membership packages and classes tailored to different levels of writing experience. She also shares her personal writing projects and the joy of creating while running a business.
Final Thoughts
Frankie's heartfelt message encourages listeners to move forward authentically and give themselves permission to be creativ
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Meeder (00:00):
Welcome to the great things LLC podcast, the
show that celebrates people whoare making an impact on the
world, people creating consciousbusinesses that are in alignment
with their own personal values.
Each episode shares the wisdomexperience and the intentions of
those that are following theirdreams. visionaries who have
chosen a different path, foundtheir purpose, and create joy
(00:21):
and abundance while helpingothers. Whether you're already a
trailblazer, we're stillsearching for your path. The
stories will inspire you towardsbeing the best version of
yourself. Welcome to the greatthings, LLC podcast. I'm your
host, Josh Meeder. And today Iam excited to introduce Frankie
roelens. Frankie has a lot ofthings behind her names, but she
(00:44):
is you know, formerly a fromacademia in college
professorship, she is an author,she is a writing coach, he is an
entrepreneur, and just reallyenjoyed getting to meet Frankie.
So let's jump right into this.
And Frankie, welcome to theshow. Thank you so
Frankie Rollins (01:02):
much for having me. I'm excited to talk to you
today.
Josh Meeder (01:05):
Yeah, so you and I met actually on a workshop of
all things on differentdifferent platform about
marketing, but didn't feel theconnection there. And I'm really
glad we were able to gettogether and kind of share,
share your story. Now, like Isaid, you've you've been an
author, author, and academic,you have, you know, just a
(01:27):
couple of books to name those.
There's the Greek madnessmanuscript running wild, the sin
eater and other stories and yourmost recent one, which we'll get
to is, do you feel like writinga creative guide to on or too
artistic? Do you feel likewriting a creative guide to
artistic competence? So let's Iguess to start this story, we
(01:49):
have to rewind the world clock alittle bit, too, we'll go back
before the pandemic. So, rightWhat did you just kind of start
with where you were, and howthat how this whole fifth brain
Creative Collective, yourbusiness came into focus?
They're great,
Frankie Rollins (02:10):
I'd love to rewind the world's clock, I
actually look at time from everydirection as as a life force. So
I am in in the beginning of2020, I am living in Tucson,
Arizona, I teaching at acommunity college, I'm teaching
five classes in creative writingand honors, and the pandemic
(02:35):
hits. And I've been divorced.
I've been divorced a few years,and I'm starting to come out of
my shell, my, my shell shockeddivorce state. And so I, I'm
thinking that my life is openingup, and then my cat dies, and
then the pandemic strikes. Andwhat happened then I lived
across the street from ahospital. So the first summer,
(02:57):
it is helicopters overhead dayand night, there's no escaping
the reality. And simultaneously,my house is kind of isolated. I
have a neighbor, and but it'shot. It's hot, hot, hot, it's
such a hot summer 9pm. At night,it's still 110 degrees. And so
(03:17):
that so it's very hard tocommunicate with people, even 12
feet apart. We have done bowlsof ice water for our feet. It's
a it's a dark moment, and mycomputer. So I looked I moved to
teaching fully online, and mycomputer is full of the creative
writing of people in pain,because everybody's in pain,
(03:38):
right? The whole world was inpain. And so it was just just a
daily dose of massive pain. Thatwas even the writing that they
were doing at so many peoplewriting for the first time of
assaults that they'd livedthrough or abuse that they'd
lived through. And at this end,I'm single. And so there's a lot
of just a lot of hardcore solid,you know, 730 In the evening, or
(04:02):
like, no, really so many morehours to entertain myself. And
during this time, also myneighbor died because he was
afraid to go across the streetto the hospital. He had a heart
condition, but he was soterrified of getting COVID that
he So it's that kind of COVIDvictim. And I was texting him
(04:25):
urging, urging him to go to thehospital and finally called an
ambulance. And I was writing I'mencouraging notes and he died in
them. And then I saw peoplechopping down his door. You
know, it's just a little toomuch of everything. Yeah,
Josh Meeder (04:43):
I mean, going back there not that anyone really
chooses to go back there. Butduring that time, you're right.
It was such a unprecedent timeand the Alien Nation in the
separation where literally theonly human contact you had was
what you brought in through yourcomputer. And you had to watch
that or your devices, because,you know, it was apocalyptic
(05:04):
from the news cycle. And then itwas fear based from everyone
else, because there was so muchunknown. So you're right. So
you're in, in academia andteaching and your students are
feeling all of this plus, plusjust the general anxiety of the
younger generation. So you wereseeing a lot of the pain and the
(05:26):
suffering that were people werecoming, coming with. So how was
that? Because it's one thing toto be the teacher or to, you
know, to be the instructor. Butthat's still has to hit and
weasel through your soul whetheryou have some protection up or
not.
Frankie Rollins (05:41):
Oh, yes. And there's no, I mean, really,
there's no protection, becausewe were all so frightened and
alarmed by it. I had, I actuallyhad a feeling or I had
constantly had this elevatorthat wouldn't hit bottom. But
the other thing that was reallyinteresting for me as a teacher
is I thought, you know, youcould see the lives of young
(06:01):
people changing. I mean, wenever went to school on Zoom,
and in a pandemic, right. And soI couldn't shake the feeling
that we were suddenly teachingthe wrong things. I mean, not in
writing, writing will always bewhat it is. But in other
elements of school, I was like,How can we possibly be teaching
the right thing for a wholegeneration of children, that is
(06:25):
having an experience we knownothing about, as their elders,
we're almost destined to failthem. And that part of that,
that was part of why I decidedto leave academia, because
academia is such a rigidstructure, it can't flex and
bend for the future,necessarily, it takes, you know,
years to make change. And I, Ialso, you know, seeing the Zoom
(06:49):
manifest in our lives, justthis, this wasn't a thing in our
lives, you know, with Skype, orFaceTime, but not not this full
life. And I realized that thetime that I needed to take my
work with writers was creativewriters, and to take it out of
(07:09):
that out of the institution intoa more flexible realm where I
could really speak to whatpeople would need after the
pandemic, because I changed somuch in that time period. I knew
I'm just one other human, I knewthat other people were
manifesting massive changes inthemselves, that they might not
(07:30):
even be able to articulate. Youknow, and for a long time, I
still don't think we know, youknow, what has changed inside of
us?
Josh Meeder (07:38):
It is and you know, one of the things I just heard
you say that I really liked andresonated with was that we are
teaching the students in thiscase, the wrong things in
academia, they were teachingformat, and it's XYZ. It's
formulaic. But in ourconversations was actually what
is needed in the teaching,whether it be through creative
(07:59):
writing, or even from mystandpoint, and conscious
business consulting is the stuffthat is geared more towards
healing the self healing thecommunity healing the planet,
where the efforts that we put inare a force for good and for
healing. Yeah. So you saw thatcoming up. And so let's go down
that path on okay. Now, you'veseen the suffering, but there's
(08:22):
something you actually want todo with
Frankie Rollins (08:24):
it. Yes. So I had, I've been in a writing
group of these two other people,Sandra Shattuck and Eric Aldrich
for many years, and we hadcreated such a world where our
writing would flourish in, in,in community in conversation.
And I've realized through that,and through my teaching, the
conversation and support is theessence of helping each other be
(08:48):
creative. And the creativityabsolutely heals the soul of
just bands down, it does, it'san amazing tool for that. And so
we had been talking about it.
And I thought that's, that isthe, that's where I'm, that's
what I'm going to pursue in mylife is helping people through
one on one coaching throughconversation, having a
membership, having classesoutside of academia, where the
(09:09):
love of the experience of livingis part of is the actual
material that we're working withthere, whether they're reading
nonfiction or fiction, justlearning how to translate your
human experience into this artform, and then learning from it.
Yeah, it's incredible. And
Josh Meeder (09:35):
I love following the passion that you have to see
in others. What I love to see isthe passion that you had. So
there's a choice point that youhad in that. Was there a was
there a clarity? Was there amoment when you're like, I am
done? I can no longer like Ijust can't stay here. I have to
move forward and what was that?
That decision point for you totake that leap and get started
(09:56):
in a new business?
Frankie Rollins (09:59):
Yeah, it's So interesting, I really had a
moment where I, I was so farfrom delight, it was so hard to
find delight. And I remembered,I knew somewhere inside myself
because I have a theory calledthe fifth brain where we're up,
there's a part of our brain,always working on our behalf,
always gathering information.
And I realized that whenever Iwould go to Fort Collins,
(10:22):
Colorado, where my sister andher family lived, that I felt
the closest thing to delightthat I had left. And so I
realized I had to move there.
And then my, my institutionwouldn't allow me to keep my job
to do that. So I was like,great, I need to be cut off from
those golden handcuffs anyways,because I want to, I mean, we'll
(10:44):
also this is the other thingabout the pandemic, I was like,
Oh, we have no guarantees, whatdo I want to spend the rest of
my life doing? You know, I'm inthe middle of my life, I am not
wasting another second on ameaningless meeting. That is not
what I'm doing with my life. Andso I decided to launch my fifth
brain collected, because I alsobelieve, sort of, as you gesture
(11:07):
that earlier, that the morepeople have access to their to
their true thoughts, theirauthentic selves, their
creativity, the more solutionsthat they'll be able to come up
with, for the problems that wehave, right now we have such a
serious set of problems. And weneed people to be so creative,
(11:28):
and to be so in touch withthemselves so that they're
better community members,they're happier humans, they
know how to workcollaboratively. And so that's
sort of the essence of what Iwas trying to do.
Josh Meeder (11:43):
Well, we do need more of that. Both the ability
to creatively express one selvesand the ability to openly
receive it without withoutreaction. So lots going on
there. And the so the fifthbrain collective, let's, let's
go to the genesis of that. Now.
You've made the call, you'veyou've ended the security of the
(12:05):
job, and you're making thesetransitions. You just dove in,
you took a course? How did howdid this come about?
Frankie Rollins (12:16):
That is so it is I did it the hard way I do
everything the hard way, that'skind of how I learned. I first
learned on a manual car. And Istill drive one because I don't
know why. But um, I just leftin, you know what the thing is,
my fifth brain knew that what Iam here on earth to do is to
(12:38):
support people in their creativewriting, I just, I just have
always known that. And so I justkind of thought, You know what,
the world is good. Noguarantees, I'm just gonna go
with Plan A, and pretend there'sno possibility of a plan B. And
so I took a class in Businessand Marketing and
Entrepreneurship. And I've beentaking them really for a year.
(13:01):
It's been a year since I startedthis. And I started on the same
day I launched I self publisheda book do you feel like writing
and I, I opened a set of classesand started my online coaching,
one on one coaching, all at thesame time, like a total mania.
You so but I also would, thewonderful thing about that was I
(13:23):
made so many mistakes. But Ilearned again and again, that
that's not the point,perfectionism is not the goal.
And that being out there with myloving radiant message, truly, I
just really care about theunits, that that is what really
matters here. And
Josh Meeder (13:41):
is and thank you for sharing that because that is
actually something that you'vejust you've nailed in the
description. And I'll just usethe replay because it was
perfectly said. But when peopleask about starting business,
that's what we do hear greatthings. And, and it's the same
thing. There's the fear, there'sthe anxiety, and the way to
really do it is just to do itand learn and, and the
(14:04):
perfectionism is the greatestkiller of any success out there.
So I know we're going to diveinto those topics in a little
bit, because I'm sure that doescome up for the students. You
know, and so now you've had allthis experience of helping
students right, so you've seenfor 1015 years, the block the
(14:26):
blocks and the challenges andall the things so it's not new
to you as to what's doing. Let'stalk about those first couple of
students and that first, youknow, those first wave coming in
and and currently How is youroperation and your businesses
going now and how do you workwith students? What are you
seeing out there that they aresucceeding with and are really
(14:47):
challenged with?
Frankie Rollins (14:49):
One of the things that's been so incredible
is watching. I mean, I have astudent who had never written
before she she actually waslooking for a colon nary class
at my former college. Andsomeone said, actually, it
sounds like you've a big story.
It's a very dark, difficultstory she's telling, and they
send her to me. And she was deepin trauma when I met her. And I
(15:11):
just said, Let's just trywriting. Let me just give you
some prompts. You know, let mejust work through this with you.
And now spinning, you know, ayear and some months later, this
person is writing a verysophisticated braided essay that
has three parts of factual partof fictional part, and then a
(15:35):
creative nonfiction fiction partfrom her story. And she is she
is healing herself, she isgiving herself a voice in a
story where she had no voice.
And it is the most astonishingthing to watch her. We also in
another client, who had beenworking with, for multiple
(15:56):
years, actually a student,former student of mine, who
followed me into the fifth braincollective, and he just
published his first piece ofwriting nationally, after being
agoraphobic for eight yearsliving at one point in his life,
he lived in a room basicallystayed in his room for eight
years. And he just published hisfirst short story in a national
magazine. And it's so you know,it's just, it's really, they are
(16:20):
also releasing theperfectionism, because what we
do is we talk about, we justtalk about what we want to say
and how to best say it, and weforget about gatekeepers. We
forget we don't let othereditors be in the room with us.
We just we allow and honor ourown ideas first. And the the
(16:40):
results are just profound. Imean, those are two Supreme
examples. But there are just somany people writing and writing
and freedom, without the senseof some ogre over them ready to
condemn them as good or bad.
That's not what we're lookingfor. We're looking for them to
find their voices. You know,it's so exciting. It's just
thrilling, and to be able tobear witness to these births
(17:03):
that they're creating forthemselves. is a such a
privilege.
Josh Meeder (17:10):
Yeah, the, the permission, we've talked to some
things you and I on onpermissioning. And allowing
people to have that freedom toto explore to fail, or to learn
about themselves and allow likethe healing happens to just come
out naturally, because you'reremoving those blocks. What are
what are some of the impedimentsthat you're seeing that people
(17:33):
as they're coming in our brainthat are common?
Frankie Rollins (17:36):
Oh, it's always fear. It's fear, different kinds
of fear. You know, impostorsyndrome, how can I possibly be
a writer, I mean, peoplegenuinely don't understand that
what it is to be a writer is tojust write and take it seriously
think that it matters, you know,and so that imposter syndrome is
(17:57):
pretty severe, and also a fearof being selfish. Why do I have
the right to spend my time in mybrain thinking, they don't
understand what a boon that isto the rest of us. If they do
that, the more people think themore they understand, the more
they can reflect, the more theycan see the world, you know,
(18:19):
from a clearer perspective, thatis not necessarily biased in
some, you know,institutionalized way. And they
have their own, they get to havetheir own opinion. And so that
selfishness is a really hard nutto crack. And mostly, I think
that one is easiest to crackjust by modeling. I mean, I just
(18:41):
constantly point to thesebookshelves. And I'm like, do
you think somebody gave allthese people permission to
write? Like, did somebody tellDavid Bowie, it's okay. Go ahead
and write a song about redshoes. Yeah. I mean, I just we
forget that these are ort thatare heroes in in different kinds
(19:02):
of writing both musical or youknow, literary or television
wise movies, films. That it's,it's that they just chose to do
it. They wanted to writesomething. They had an idea. And
they just had enough courage orpermission for themselves to
write it. Yeah,
Josh Meeder (19:21):
yeah, the true greats never created for the
commercial success the truegreats created, because it had
they had to get it outside of
Frankie Rollins (19:31):
ourselves.
There was something they had tosay.
Josh Meeder (19:34):
And the selfishness, just interesting
correlations and crossoverbecause that is pretty
pervasive. You know, we're,we're taught here to be humble
and to be charitable, and all weshould be but the the
selfishness like to actuallyit's really self enrichment or
self care. It is so demonized,like, Oh, you're being selfish
but people have to understand islike, unless you're full
(19:59):
yourself you can You can'tsupport and you can't give in
fullness to others. So it'sinteresting to see the
crossovers that you have fromfrom a writing perspective, and
the same things ring true withthose starting in on the
entrepreneurial side. So you'vekind of gotten both both wrapped
up there. Then the book thatdoes talk just a little bit
(20:23):
about like the Do you feel likewriting so that that's coming
out there? And is that a corepart of your class? Or is there
just one of those things thathad to get out?
Frankie Rollins (20:33):
It is, it's a core part, you know, I will say
writing this book changedwriting, every book that I write
changes me as a human being, butthis book was really, I was,
because I actually have beenteaching for 25 years, I have my
own little class of classes fornine years, and I was a teaching
artist in the schools increative writing for years. But,
(20:55):
um, so it was gathering theessences that I knew were true.
And what I did in this book is,there's a lot of my own story as
a writer there because I one ofthe things I'm, I'm famous for,
in my friends circles is that Ialways write no matter what I
doesn't matter how hard my lifeis how many jobs I have, or
(21:15):
whatever I find time to write,because it is such an essential
part of me. So I use storiesfrom that to illustrate moments
of turning in my life. And, butit's I talk about things like,
you know, honoring yourknowledge banks, that each of us
has a set of knowledge banks,that we've been gathering our
whole lives, and using those inyour writing, so you're never
(21:38):
actually coming to a blank page.
And, um, but the book also hasover 100 prompts in it. So it's
really meant to just let peoplestart anywhere, and just do some
writing, you know, and I remindthem constantly in the book,
that, that they have the choiceto do this, that it's totally up
to them, and they havepermission. And it's it's, it's
what sits on the shelf, itreally people find it. And then
(22:03):
they they write to me, andthey're like, I really needed
this book, because it's not Imean, I just was looking at an
old textbook that I had, I mean,not a textbook, but an old book
I had, I'm not even saying thenames, I don't want people to go
get it. And this, you know, someof the advice in it. It's so
pejorative, I mean, it's so it'smarks people for different
(22:24):
choices are making. And that iswhat I'm like, That is not the
way to teach, that is not theway for us to go forward. You
know,
Josh Meeder (22:35):
for those sitting out there that right now do not
realize that they are a writer,but they have a story, or they
have an idea that's percolating.
How do you reach those people?
And what should they beconsidering?
Frankie Rollins (22:50):
Yeah, I have like, I have a free console
always. And I almost geteverything I know from that
conversation, everything I needto know. For example, people
will sometimes I'll just say, Doyou have some chapters in mind?
And often they'll be like, Yeah,I do. And I'll just say, well
write that list down, and thenput a sentence underneath for
(23:12):
each one. Or do you knowsomething you want to say about
life or experience, just, youknow, write that idea down. And
then think about a story fromyour life that might exemplify
that. I also, I'm just one of myI'm working on a collection of
fairy tales right now. And oneof the it's it's called the
(23:35):
empty house fairy tales fordisappointed women. And I turn
moments of disappointment to myfrom my own life into fairy
tales where the women mightmorph into a wolf, or one woman
is so angry, and she can't dealwith and she can't talk about
it. And she just blasts apart,she's still alive, but her arms
over there and a legs over. Butit's It's morphing your
(23:57):
experience into a fictional talecan be really helpful to see it.
Or even just writing downliterally what happened to you,
you can help you learn more seemore, and it's an offering. I
mean, we need each other'sexperiences to know how to live
our lives. I
Josh Meeder (24:15):
think one of the key points in there is, is the
process, not the outcome. Likewhen when people are thinking
about starting a businessstarting a book, if you can
focus on the process and thehealing from it, not the
outcome, is that the same inyour world because the outcome
puts an unnecessary unrealisticpressure that you're trying to
(24:38):
get to. And I think it pulls youout of the process to get there.
Exactly,
Frankie Rollins (24:42):
exactly.
There's a lot of writing.
Gathering. There's a lot ofwriting businesses now that
promise, write the book andpublish the book, but I'm always
like, why are we letting thepublishers in the room of
creation at all? That like howdo you how do you speak What's
in your own mero if you'reworried about a bunch of
(25:03):
strangers who might or might notlike your work, you know, you
can't, you have to go moredeeply inside to know what
you're saying. And, I mean, ofcourse, there are certain
writers who you know, they'relike a mystery writer who's
reading a whole series that allhave sort of the same premise or
something that's sort ofdifferent. But if you're trying
(25:24):
to write something that you needto say in the world, then you
have to be able to dig inside.
And it's so important to justpay attention to that, and love
it, allow yourself to love it.
The other thing is, we turnedeverything into work, right?
It's like productivity, must, wemust sit in our chair and check
(25:45):
off our list. And that is aninappropriate approach to
creativity. Because the fifthbrain has its I mean, it's an
organic creature coming fromthis organic creature. So it's
gonna have its own, you know,highs and lows and cyclical
nature, times when it needs torest times when it's pouring
ideas forth. And so learning tobe patient with that is such an
(26:09):
element of the work. Yeah,
Josh Meeder (26:11):
yeah. Not to take that in play. Not not
necessarily devil's advocate,but to challenge it from the
other side, right? Because thereis the freedom and the
creativity and the flow listsstate the flow state and lack of
boundaries or, or, or the hardregimen. But there's also the
place of effort versus likehoping for manifestation and
(26:36):
actually directing. So how doyou pull the the balance of
keeping it in a natural flowstate for the creative process,
but also there is the thecomponent of, of effort and, and
challenge? Yes,
Frankie Rollins (26:51):
keep it Yes, trying when it gets hard,
because it does get difficult. Imean, there is a moment when an
a friend and I, you know, justtalk about is your button your
chair, like you have becausealso writing you have to
generally sit be sitting downdoing it. And so there is that
element, like the idea isamazing, the idea can be so
(27:12):
sparkly and exciting. And thenyou have to follow through. And
part of the thing, part of thething I've seen because I've met
some people who were pouring outnovels, but they didn't
necessarily know crafttechnique. And now as their
landing craft technique isslowing down their work. And
they're finding that, here's howyou get the work done. The
(27:32):
reason why you can get the workdone is because you are learning
so much as you're doing it. It'snot just for the product, it's
for your own development as ahuman being to where like you
don't even mean to when youstart out, but it happens. And I
think that the love of that thecuriosity of that is what can
(27:52):
help drive that drives the workthe work there. And I do I mean,
obviously, there's also a pointwhere it has to be polished and
crafted and, and I just alwayssay there are a million people
out there ready to like, nip andbite and help you with that.
(28:12):
They're all there, there'splenty of them, there's fewer of
us,
Josh Meeder (28:16):
there's never a shortage of critics out there,
they always give us theirconstructive advice at the end,
Frankie Rollins (28:24):
you could go find them, they're there.
Josh Meeder (28:27):
Like I always say, you can get on my train, or you
can get run over it doesn'tmatter to me, just leave those
people under the tracks backthere. Looking forward, what is
on the horizon for you. And forfifth brain collective.
Frankie Rollins (28:42):
That is something that I'm obsessed with
right now. Because it's been thefirst year as I said, I've made
a lot of mistakes. And now I'mlearning now i and there were
mistakes, I could never haveknown how to I had to make them
to know them, or I had to do thething to even understand. So I'm
sort of reshaping I had a lot ofpoetic titles for my classes,
(29:03):
which was a mistake becausepeople don't know what they are.
So that was something I learnedso I'm doing some reshaping of
it. But it's an I'm creating anew I have a membership where
those people are writing andwriting and supporting each
other. I'm creating a new one ofthose. And it's it's really it's
(29:23):
expanding a little bit is iswhat what is next but it's still
it's just now that I know whenI've proven my concept that
conversation collaboration andweekly support with other people
is what we need to get ourcreative writing done. Now I'm
I'm creating things in the fifthbrain collective that are really
(29:44):
meant to promote that in this inthis world. So that's, that's
the work there. And I mean,here's the other key that is
amazing about this is that Imyself am writing I'm working on
three stories now and a newnovel while I'm running this
business, right? It's it's like,if you're doing the thing that
(30:04):
you most love to do, otherthings start to fall into that
that like aura that you'vecreated. And it's profound. It
is,
Josh Meeder (30:14):
I think, on the flip side of that, when you're
not working in your passion orin your flow, it is hard just to
get four things checked off yourchecklist, because it's a grind
to get through.
Frankie Rollins (30:22):
Right? Yes, it's all work. It's all
productivity. Yep.
Josh Meeder (30:27):
Now the those who are interested in working with
you, where are they at? in theirwriting, writing experience? Are
they first time writers? Isthere a general is it all across
the board? What does someone whowill be working with you look
like?
Frankie Rollins (30:43):
I am right now I'm creating new packages, I was
coaching hour by hour, but thenI've realized, like, people need
my expertise to guide them. Soif they're totally new, and just
ready, just have an idea, thenI'll work with them on Zoom,
where we talk about their idea.
And then I'll send them someprompts tailored to what they're
looking for, then maybe theiradvance, maybe they have a
chapter or a story, somethingdone. And they want me to read
(31:07):
that and give them feedback andtalk about how to move forward.
Also give them props for that.
But then I also have peoplewho've written a whole book, and
want the whole book review theywant, they want someone else to
have it in their heart andbrain. And so I'll read that for
them. They'll give me a list ofquestions, things they're
worried about. And then Irespond to that. And I also just
(31:28):
show them what their book lookslike, what the symbols are, what
the themes are, what the wherethe gaps are. So each one of
those is sort of a differentlevel. But but because my goal
is getting everyone who is thetiniest bit interested in
writing, writing, I havesomething for each different
sort of level they're on.
Josh Meeder (31:48):
Okay, so that's pretty clear to anyone from
anyone who has an idea and adesire or a curiosity to someone
who's already completed a bookand looking for some some
review. So while we're indifferent industries, we do have
a common style, or at least thecommon I feel like most heart
centered approach and, and whileI'm working on creating
(32:10):
businesses, in your reading oncreating our books, the deeper
work is healing hearts and mindsand in the people that we're
working with, in those peoplethat they affect. So from, from
the healing, almost the esotericexperience of what you're
creating, how do you see that?
How does that fill your worldand come out through your work?
(32:30):
I
Frankie Rollins (32:33):
love that. I love that idea. I love thinking
about that idea. And I think itis becoming a whole being part
of what creative writing andcreativity do as they give you
an opportunity to reallyunderstand who you are, what
you've been through where you'vebeen, what it doesn't even
matter what genre you're workingin. Because everything that you
(32:54):
do, informs the language thatyou choose the style that you're
writing in. And in thatwholeness, it's like we're
walking around, a lot of us arewalking around with big chunks
missing, you know, or things wedon't understand, like big
mysterious worlds that we'relike, I don't even know what
that world is in my brain, butit's there. But becoming more
(33:18):
aware of who you are and whatyou've been through. And owning
it. That's the part aboutwriting that really helps us it
allows people to own it, this ismy story. I'm writing it down, I
am the one, putting it here intothe world sharing it with the
world. And there's something soprofound in that ownership. And
(33:39):
that that self acknowledgementthat that creates a powerful
like then then we're dealingwith the whole being, you know,
we're not dealing with someonewho has has all these terrible
or difficult moments in theirlife just still raging and
influencing things they do,you're instead working with
somebody who, who who can arrivewith all of their, you know, all
(34:06):
of their faculties intact andclear. And, and, and just being
able to have a tool. So everytime something difficult
happens, my life I turned towriting I just immediately
turned to writing now. And soit's an it's a tool for healing
in that way. I mean, it isnumber one, my tool for healing.
Josh Meeder (34:28):
In correspondingly I feel the there's such a high
level high baseline that youwill have anxiety within our
society it I think it's onunprecedented levels, and in the
healing circles in work that Ido, not only with the coaching,
but in the other other realms.
I've seen that where people areso anxious, and they're
(34:49):
concerned about feeling unsafe,and it's such a trap and just to
share a little bit of myperspective and see if you
concur is the unfeeling unsafeis a trap that holds them in the
place. So it's I don't feel safetaking a risk to leave my job to
start a business. I don't feelsafe. What if I write a book and
(35:13):
it's failed? Or what if I hurtsomeone's feeling? Or what if it
doesn't work out? It's like thisall unsafe, and they're like,
Why can't start because I'm notsafe. When there's actually a
subtle shift to actually you'reuncomfortable. And the unsafe
pneus is what, you know, kind ofthe psychobabble in theory,
well, we got to feel safe. Wegot to do this. No, it's like
(35:34):
actually growth comes throughsometimes through being
uncomfortable. And how can youguide someone to see the
difference, but then to realizethat once you feel
uncomfortable, and you've movedthrough it, that discomfort is
pretty much gone. And you can goto a next next level, but it's
that first step or to to getsomeone out of feeling unsafe
into realizing that it's adiscomfort. Do you see that in
(35:59):
your writers? And how do youaddress that if it does come up?
Frankie Rollins (36:05):
I mean, all the time. That's the fear actually,
that I think I was talking aboutit first. And, you know, the
thing is that safety is, andthis actually goes back to the
pandemic too. It's, it's anillusion, most of the time
anyways, right? Though, theBuddhist precept that change is
the most essential quality oflife. Like, that's why people
(36:27):
hate change, because it feels souncomfortable. But, and it is
true. When you start puttingsomething on the paper, you're
exposing your thoughts, right,you're exposing your ideas,
you're, you're hoping someday tocontact someone to reach someone
with your writing. And it is Iam a risk taker by nature. Just
(36:49):
that's that is who I am. That'spart of why I was able to make
this great change for my ownlife, saved my own life,
honestly. And so what I do,almost more than talking someone
through that, I just, I model itand I take them through it, I
take a show them what it is likefor them to write I give people
prompts all the time that theyhave to write to maybe they have
(37:12):
five minutes, maybe they have 10minutes in their life. And then
they do it. And then they do it.
And then they become moreaccustomed to it. And they
realized that it's a way ofshortcutting all the
overthinking we do in our brain,and they can access something
more pure and authentic fromthemselves. So I really like
just starting just modeling howto just start is part of is the
(37:34):
real truth. Wait, wait for it.
Josh Meeder (37:42):
I love that and we need we need more of that more
of the risk taking more of thetaking chances. Because writing
something down on paper willprobably never cause you any
physical harm. You know, I thinkit's probably probably a safe
bet that you could try it justlike
Frankie Rollins (37:59):
crumple it up.
No one has to see it. I used tobe afraid that I would die when
my terrible first draft wasthere and the people would think
that was the best I could do.
And then I just realized howwhat what an elaborate neuroses
I had created.
Josh Meeder (38:18):
It's very enjoyable, you can write a story
about that one of your fairytales, everything. Well,
Frankie, thank you for sharing.
It's, it's a great story. AndI'm really excited for what
you're creating and yourstudents. If, if you're
interested in learning moreabout what Frankie shared the
you will find her website andhow to contact her in all the
(38:40):
show notes. And then thecomments here. And on closing,
like, is there anything elseyou'd like to send the audience
off with before we conclude?
Frankie Rollins (38:50):
I just I, I just want them to move forward
in an authentic way that feelsgood to them. That's what I want
for them. And whatever, whateverform that takes if it's
creative, or if it's just on adaily basis, you have permission
to be yourself.
Josh Meeder (39:07):
I love that. So there you have it, listeners,
everyone has permission to bethemselves to find their joy, to
find their bliss to confrontwhat's uncomfortable and
continue the growth pattern.
Frankie Rollins (39:18):
Yeah.
Josh Meeder (39:19):
So thanks again, Frankie. Thanks for tuning in
and look forward to the nextepisode coming out shortly.
Frankie Rollins (39:26):
Thank you for this beautiful conversation,
Josh. I appreciate it.
Welcome to the great things LLC podcast, the
show that celebrates people whoare making an impact on the
world, people creating consciousbusinesses that are in alignment
with their own personal values.
Each episode shares the wisdomexperience and the intentions of
those that are following theirdreams. visionaries who have
chosen a different path, foundtheir purpose, and create joy
(00:21):
and abundance while helpingothers. Whether you're already a
trailblazer, we're stillsearching for your path. The
stories will inspire you towardsbeing the best version of
yourself. Welcome to the greatthings, LLC podcast. I'm your
host, Josh Meeder. And today Iam excited to introduce Frankie
roelens. Frankie has a lot ofthings behind her names, but she
(00:44):
is you know, formerly a fromacademia in college
professorship, she is an author,she is a writing coach, he is an
entrepreneur, and just reallyenjoyed getting to meet Frankie.
So let's jump right into this.
And Frankie, welcome to theshow. Thank you so
Frankie Rollins (01:02):
much for having me. I'm excited to talk to you
today.
Josh Meeder (01:05):
Yeah, so you and I met actually on a workshop of
all things on differentdifferent platform about
marketing, but didn't feel theconnection there. And I'm really
glad we were able to gettogether and kind of share,
share your story. Now, like Isaid, you've you've been an
author, author, and academic,you have, you know, just a
(01:27):
couple of books to name those.
There's the Greek madnessmanuscript running wild, the sin
eater and other stories and yourmost recent one, which we'll get
to is, do you feel like writinga creative guide to on or too
artistic? Do you feel likewriting a creative guide to
artistic competence? So let's Iguess to start this story, we
(01:49):
have to rewind the world clock alittle bit, too, we'll go back
before the pandemic. So, rightWhat did you just kind of start
with where you were, and howthat how this whole fifth brain
Creative Collective, yourbusiness came into focus?
They're great,
Frankie Rollins (02:10):
I'd love to rewind the world's clock, I
actually look at time from everydirection as as a life force. So
I am in in the beginning of2020, I am living in Tucson,
Arizona, I teaching at acommunity college, I'm teaching
five classes in creative writingand honors, and the pandemic
(02:35):
hits. And I've been divorced.
I've been divorced a few years,and I'm starting to come out of
my shell, my, my shell shockeddivorce state. And so I, I'm
thinking that my life is openingup, and then my cat dies, and
then the pandemic strikes. Andwhat happened then I lived
across the street from ahospital. So the first summer,
(02:57):
it is helicopters overhead dayand night, there's no escaping
the reality. And simultaneously,my house is kind of isolated. I
have a neighbor, and but it'shot. It's hot, hot, hot, it's
such a hot summer 9pm. At night,it's still 110 degrees. And so
(03:17):
that so it's very hard tocommunicate with people, even 12
feet apart. We have done bowlsof ice water for our feet. It's
a it's a dark moment, and mycomputer. So I looked I moved to
teaching fully online, and mycomputer is full of the creative
writing of people in pain,because everybody's in pain,
(03:38):
right? The whole world was inpain. And so it was just just a
daily dose of massive pain. Thatwas even the writing that they
were doing at so many peoplewriting for the first time of
assaults that they'd livedthrough or abuse that they'd
lived through. And at this end,I'm single. And so there's a lot
of just a lot of hardcore solid,you know, 730 In the evening, or
(04:02):
like, no, really so many morehours to entertain myself. And
during this time, also myneighbor died because he was
afraid to go across the streetto the hospital. He had a heart
condition, but he was soterrified of getting COVID that
he So it's that kind of COVIDvictim. And I was texting him
(04:25):
urging, urging him to go to thehospital and finally called an
ambulance. And I was writing I'mencouraging notes and he died in
them. And then I saw peoplechopping down his door. You
know, it's just a little toomuch of everything. Yeah,
Josh Meeder (04:43):
I mean, going back there not that anyone really
chooses to go back there. Butduring that time, you're right.
It was such a unprecedent timeand the Alien Nation in the
separation where literally theonly human contact you had was
what you brought in through yourcomputer. And you had to watch
that or your devices, because,you know, it was apocalyptic
(05:04):
from the news cycle. And then itwas fear based from everyone
else, because there was so muchunknown. So you're right. So
you're in, in academia andteaching and your students are
feeling all of this plus, plusjust the general anxiety of the
younger generation. So you wereseeing a lot of the pain and the
(05:26):
suffering that were people werecoming, coming with. So how was
that? Because it's one thing toto be the teacher or to, you
know, to be the instructor. Butthat's still has to hit and
weasel through your soul whetheryou have some protection up or
not.
Frankie Rollins (05:41):
Oh, yes. And there's no, I mean, really,
there's no protection, becausewe were all so frightened and
alarmed by it. I had, I actuallyhad a feeling or I had
constantly had this elevatorthat wouldn't hit bottom. But
the other thing that was reallyinteresting for me as a teacher
is I thought, you know, youcould see the lives of young
(06:01):
people changing. I mean, wenever went to school on Zoom,
and in a pandemic, right. And soI couldn't shake the feeling
that we were suddenly teachingthe wrong things. I mean, not in
writing, writing will always bewhat it is. But in other
elements of school, I was like,How can we possibly be teaching
the right thing for a wholegeneration of children, that is
(06:25):
having an experience we knownothing about, as their elders,
we're almost destined to failthem. And that part of that,
that was part of why I decidedto leave academia, because
academia is such a rigidstructure, it can't flex and
bend for the future,necessarily, it takes, you know,
years to make change. And I, Ialso, you know, seeing the Zoom
(06:49):
manifest in our lives, justthis, this wasn't a thing in our
lives, you know, with Skype, orFaceTime, but not not this full
life. And I realized that thetime that I needed to take my
work with writers was creativewriters, and to take it out of
(07:09):
that out of the institution intoa more flexible realm where I
could really speak to whatpeople would need after the
pandemic, because I changed somuch in that time period. I knew
I'm just one other human, I knewthat other people were
manifesting massive changes inthemselves, that they might not
(07:30):
even be able to articulate. Youknow, and for a long time, I
still don't think we know, youknow, what has changed inside of
us?
Josh Meeder (07:38):
It is and you know, one of the things I just heard
you say that I really liked andresonated with was that we are
teaching the students in thiscase, the wrong things in
academia, they were teachingformat, and it's XYZ. It's
formulaic. But in ourconversations was actually what
is needed in the teaching,whether it be through creative
(07:59):
writing, or even from mystandpoint, and conscious
business consulting is the stuffthat is geared more towards
healing the self healing thecommunity healing the planet,
where the efforts that we put inare a force for good and for
healing. Yeah. So you saw thatcoming up. And so let's go down
that path on okay. Now, you'veseen the suffering, but there's
(08:22):
something you actually want todo with
Frankie Rollins (08:24):
it. Yes. So I had, I've been in a writing
group of these two other people,Sandra Shattuck and Eric Aldrich
for many years, and we hadcreated such a world where our
writing would flourish in, in,in community in conversation.
And I've realized through that,and through my teaching, the
conversation and support is theessence of helping each other be
(08:48):
creative. And the creativityabsolutely heals the soul of
just bands down, it does, it'san amazing tool for that. And so
we had been talking about it.
And I thought that's, that isthe, that's where I'm, that's
what I'm going to pursue in mylife is helping people through
one on one coaching throughconversation, having a
membership, having classesoutside of academia, where the
(09:09):
love of the experience of livingis part of is the actual
material that we're working withthere, whether they're reading
nonfiction or fiction, justlearning how to translate your
human experience into this artform, and then learning from it.
Yeah, it's incredible. And
Josh Meeder (09:35):
I love following the passion that you have to see
in others. What I love to see isthe passion that you had. So
there's a choice point that youhad in that. Was there a was
there a clarity? Was there amoment when you're like, I am
done? I can no longer like Ijust can't stay here. I have to
move forward and what was that?
That decision point for you totake that leap and get started
(09:56):
in a new business?
Frankie Rollins (09:59):
Yeah, it's So interesting, I really had a
moment where I, I was so farfrom delight, it was so hard to
find delight. And I remembered,I knew somewhere inside myself
because I have a theory calledthe fifth brain where we're up,
there's a part of our brain,always working on our behalf,
always gathering information.
And I realized that whenever Iwould go to Fort Collins,
(10:22):
Colorado, where my sister andher family lived, that I felt
the closest thing to delightthat I had left. And so I
realized I had to move there.
And then my, my institutionwouldn't allow me to keep my job
to do that. So I was like,great, I need to be cut off from
those golden handcuffs anyways,because I want to, I mean, we'll
(10:44):
also this is the other thingabout the pandemic, I was like,
Oh, we have no guarantees, whatdo I want to spend the rest of
my life doing? You know, I'm inthe middle of my life, I am not
wasting another second on ameaningless meeting. That is not
what I'm doing with my life. Andso I decided to launch my fifth
brain collected, because I alsobelieve, sort of, as you gesture
(11:07):
that earlier, that the morepeople have access to their to
their true thoughts, theirauthentic selves, their
creativity, the more solutionsthat they'll be able to come up
with, for the problems that wehave, right now we have such a
serious set of problems. And weneed people to be so creative,
(11:28):
and to be so in touch withthemselves so that they're
better community members,they're happier humans, they
know how to workcollaboratively. And so that's
sort of the essence of what Iwas trying to do.
Josh Meeder (11:43):
Well, we do need more of that. Both the ability
to creatively express one selvesand the ability to openly
receive it without withoutreaction. So lots going on
there. And the so the fifthbrain collective, let's, let's
go to the genesis of that. Now.
You've made the call, you'veyou've ended the security of the
(12:05):
job, and you're making thesetransitions. You just dove in,
you took a course? How did howdid this come about?
Frankie Rollins (12:16):
That is so it is I did it the hard way I do
everything the hard way, that'skind of how I learned. I first
learned on a manual car. And Istill drive one because I don't
know why. But um, I just leftin, you know what the thing is,
my fifth brain knew that what Iam here on earth to do is to
(12:38):
support people in their creativewriting, I just, I just have
always known that. And so I justkind of thought, You know what,
the world is good. Noguarantees, I'm just gonna go
with Plan A, and pretend there'sno possibility of a plan B. And
so I took a class in Businessand Marketing and
Entrepreneurship. And I've beentaking them really for a year.
(13:01):
It's been a year since I startedthis. And I started on the same
day I launched I self publisheda book do you feel like writing
and I, I opened a set of classesand started my online coaching,
one on one coaching, all at thesame time, like a total mania.
You so but I also would, thewonderful thing about that was I
(13:23):
made so many mistakes. But Ilearned again and again, that
that's not the point,perfectionism is not the goal.
And that being out there with myloving radiant message, truly, I
just really care about theunits, that that is what really
matters here. And
Josh Meeder (13:41):
is and thank you for sharing that because that is
actually something that you'vejust you've nailed in the
description. And I'll just usethe replay because it was
perfectly said. But when peopleask about starting business,
that's what we do hear greatthings. And, and it's the same
thing. There's the fear, there'sthe anxiety, and the way to
really do it is just to do itand learn and, and the
(14:04):
perfectionism is the greatestkiller of any success out there.
So I know we're going to diveinto those topics in a little
bit, because I'm sure that doescome up for the students. You
know, and so now you've had allthis experience of helping
students right, so you've seenfor 1015 years, the block the
(14:26):
blocks and the challenges andall the things so it's not new
to you as to what's doing. Let'stalk about those first couple of
students and that first, youknow, those first wave coming in
and and currently How is youroperation and your businesses
going now and how do you workwith students? What are you
seeing out there that they aresucceeding with and are really
(14:47):
challenged with?
Frankie Rollins (14:49):
One of the things that's been so incredible
is watching. I mean, I have astudent who had never written
before she she actually waslooking for a colon nary class
at my former college. Andsomeone said, actually, it
sounds like you've a big story.
It's a very dark, difficultstory she's telling, and they
send her to me. And she was deepin trauma when I met her. And I
(15:11):
just said, Let's just trywriting. Let me just give you
some prompts. You know, let mejust work through this with you.
And now spinning, you know, ayear and some months later, this
person is writing a verysophisticated braided essay that
has three parts of factual partof fictional part, and then a
(15:35):
creative nonfiction fiction partfrom her story. And she is she
is healing herself, she isgiving herself a voice in a
story where she had no voice.
And it is the most astonishingthing to watch her. We also in
another client, who had beenworking with, for multiple
(15:56):
years, actually a student,former student of mine, who
followed me into the fifth braincollective, and he just
published his first piece ofwriting nationally, after being
agoraphobic for eight yearsliving at one point in his life,
he lived in a room basicallystayed in his room for eight
years. And he just published hisfirst short story in a national
magazine. And it's so you know,it's just, it's really, they are
(16:20):
also releasing theperfectionism, because what we
do is we talk about, we justtalk about what we want to say
and how to best say it, and weforget about gatekeepers. We
forget we don't let othereditors be in the room with us.
We just we allow and honor ourown ideas first. And the the
(16:40):
results are just profound. Imean, those are two Supreme
examples. But there are just somany people writing and writing
and freedom, without the senseof some ogre over them ready to
condemn them as good or bad.
That's not what we're lookingfor. We're looking for them to
find their voices. You know,it's so exciting. It's just
thrilling, and to be able tobear witness to these births
(17:03):
that they're creating forthemselves. is a such a
privilege.
Josh Meeder (17:10):
Yeah, the, the permission, we've talked to some
things you and I on onpermissioning. And allowing
people to have that freedom toto explore to fail, or to learn
about themselves and allow likethe healing happens to just come
out naturally, because you'reremoving those blocks. What are
what are some of the impedimentsthat you're seeing that people
(17:33):
as they're coming in our brainthat are common?
Frankie Rollins (17:36):
Oh, it's always fear. It's fear, different kinds
of fear. You know, impostorsyndrome, how can I possibly be
a writer, I mean, peoplegenuinely don't understand that
what it is to be a writer is tojust write and take it seriously
think that it matters, you know,and so that imposter syndrome is
(17:57):
pretty severe, and also a fearof being selfish. Why do I have
the right to spend my time in mybrain thinking, they don't
understand what a boon that isto the rest of us. If they do
that, the more people think themore they understand, the more
they can reflect, the more theycan see the world, you know,
(18:19):
from a clearer perspective, thatis not necessarily biased in
some, you know,institutionalized way. And they
have their own, they get to havetheir own opinion. And so that
selfishness is a really hard nutto crack. And mostly, I think
that one is easiest to crackjust by modeling. I mean, I just
(18:41):
constantly point to thesebookshelves. And I'm like, do
you think somebody gave allthese people permission to
write? Like, did somebody tellDavid Bowie, it's okay. Go ahead
and write a song about redshoes. Yeah. I mean, I just we
forget that these are ort thatare heroes in in different kinds
(19:02):
of writing both musical or youknow, literary or television
wise movies, films. That it's,it's that they just chose to do
it. They wanted to writesomething. They had an idea. And
they just had enough courage orpermission for themselves to
write it. Yeah,
Josh Meeder (19:21):
yeah, the true greats never created for the
commercial success the truegreats created, because it had
they had to get it outside of
Frankie Rollins (19:31):
ourselves.
There was something they had tosay.
Josh Meeder (19:34):
And the selfishness, just interesting
correlations and crossoverbecause that is pretty
pervasive. You know, we're,we're taught here to be humble
and to be charitable, and all weshould be but the the
selfishness like to actuallyit's really self enrichment or
self care. It is so demonized,like, Oh, you're being selfish
but people have to understand islike, unless you're full
(19:59):
yourself you can You can'tsupport and you can't give in
fullness to others. So it'sinteresting to see the
crossovers that you have fromfrom a writing perspective, and
the same things ring true withthose starting in on the
entrepreneurial side. So you'vekind of gotten both both wrapped
up there. Then the book thatdoes talk just a little bit
(20:23):
about like the Do you feel likewriting so that that's coming
out there? And is that a corepart of your class? Or is there
just one of those things thathad to get out?
Frankie Rollins (20:33):
It is, it's a core part, you know, I will say
writing this book changedwriting, every book that I write
changes me as a human being, butthis book was really, I was,
because I actually have beenteaching for 25 years, I have my
own little class of classes fornine years, and I was a teaching
artist in the schools increative writing for years. But,
(20:55):
um, so it was gathering theessences that I knew were true.
And what I did in this book is,there's a lot of my own story as
a writer there because I one ofthe things I'm, I'm famous for,
in my friends circles is that Ialways write no matter what I
doesn't matter how hard my lifeis how many jobs I have, or
(21:15):
whatever I find time to write,because it is such an essential
part of me. So I use storiesfrom that to illustrate moments
of turning in my life. And, butit's I talk about things like,
you know, honoring yourknowledge banks, that each of us
has a set of knowledge banks,that we've been gathering our
whole lives, and using those inyour writing, so you're never
(21:38):
actually coming to a blank page.
And, um, but the book also hasover 100 prompts in it. So it's
really meant to just let peoplestart anywhere, and just do some
writing, you know, and I remindthem constantly in the book,
that, that they have the choiceto do this, that it's totally up
to them, and they havepermission. And it's it's, it's
what sits on the shelf, itreally people find it. And then
(22:03):
they they write to me, andthey're like, I really needed
this book, because it's not Imean, I just was looking at an
old textbook that I had, I mean,not a textbook, but an old book
I had, I'm not even saying thenames, I don't want people to go
get it. And this, you know, someof the advice in it. It's so
pejorative, I mean, it's so it'smarks people for different
(22:24):
choices are making. And that iswhat I'm like, That is not the
way to teach, that is not theway for us to go forward. You
know,
Josh Meeder (22:35):
for those sitting out there that right now do not
realize that they are a writer,but they have a story, or they
have an idea that's percolating.
How do you reach those people?
And what should they beconsidering?
Frankie Rollins (22:50):
Yeah, I have like, I have a free console
always. And I almost geteverything I know from that
conversation, everything I needto know. For example, people
will sometimes I'll just say, Doyou have some chapters in mind?
And often they'll be like, Yeah,I do. And I'll just say, well
write that list down, and thenput a sentence underneath for
(23:12):
each one. Or do you knowsomething you want to say about
life or experience, just, youknow, write that idea down. And
then think about a story fromyour life that might exemplify
that. I also, I'm just one of myI'm working on a collection of
fairy tales right now. And oneof the it's it's called the
(23:35):
empty house fairy tales fordisappointed women. And I turn
moments of disappointment to myfrom my own life into fairy
tales where the women mightmorph into a wolf, or one woman
is so angry, and she can't dealwith and she can't talk about
it. And she just blasts apart,she's still alive, but her arms
over there and a legs over. Butit's It's morphing your
(23:57):
experience into a fictional talecan be really helpful to see it.
Or even just writing downliterally what happened to you,
you can help you learn more seemore, and it's an offering. I
mean, we need each other'sexperiences to know how to live
our lives. I
Josh Meeder (24:15):
think one of the key points in there is, is the
process, not the outcome. Likewhen when people are thinking
about starting a businessstarting a book, if you can
focus on the process and thehealing from it, not the
outcome, is that the same inyour world because the outcome
puts an unnecessary unrealisticpressure that you're trying to
(24:38):
get to. And I think it pulls youout of the process to get there.
Exactly,
Frankie Rollins (24:42):
exactly.
There's a lot of writing.
Gathering. There's a lot ofwriting businesses now that
promise, write the book andpublish the book, but I'm always
like, why are we letting thepublishers in the room of
creation at all? That like howdo you how do you speak What's
in your own mero if you'reworried about a bunch of
(25:03):
strangers who might or might notlike your work, you know, you
can't, you have to go moredeeply inside to know what
you're saying. And, I mean, ofcourse, there are certain
writers who you know, they'relike a mystery writer who's
reading a whole series that allhave sort of the same premise or
something that's sort ofdifferent. But if you're trying
(25:24):
to write something that you needto say in the world, then you
have to be able to dig inside.
And it's so important to justpay attention to that, and love
it, allow yourself to love it.
The other thing is, we turnedeverything into work, right?
It's like productivity, must, wemust sit in our chair and check
(25:45):
off our list. And that is aninappropriate approach to
creativity. Because the fifthbrain has its I mean, it's an
organic creature coming fromthis organic creature. So it's
gonna have its own, you know,highs and lows and cyclical
nature, times when it needs torest times when it's pouring
ideas forth. And so learning tobe patient with that is such an
(26:09):
element of the work. Yeah,
Josh Meeder (26:11):
yeah. Not to take that in play. Not not
necessarily devil's advocate,but to challenge it from the
other side, right? Because thereis the freedom and the
creativity and the flow listsstate the flow state and lack of
boundaries or, or, or the hardregimen. But there's also the
place of effort versus likehoping for manifestation and
(26:36):
actually directing. So how doyou pull the the balance of
keeping it in a natural flowstate for the creative process,
but also there is the thecomponent of, of effort and, and
challenge? Yes,
Frankie Rollins (26:51):
keep it Yes, trying when it gets hard,
because it does get difficult. Imean, there is a moment when an
a friend and I, you know, justtalk about is your button your
chair, like you have becausealso writing you have to
generally sit be sitting downdoing it. And so there is that
element, like the idea isamazing, the idea can be so
(27:12):
sparkly and exciting. And thenyou have to follow through. And
part of the thing, part of thething I've seen because I've met
some people who were pouring outnovels, but they didn't
necessarily know crafttechnique. And now as their
landing craft technique isslowing down their work. And
they're finding that, here's howyou get the work done. The
(27:32):
reason why you can get the workdone is because you are learning
so much as you're doing it. It'snot just for the product, it's
for your own development as ahuman being to where like you
don't even mean to when youstart out, but it happens. And I
think that the love of that thecuriosity of that is what can
(27:52):
help drive that drives the workthe work there. And I do I mean,
obviously, there's also a pointwhere it has to be polished and
crafted and, and I just alwayssay there are a million people
out there ready to like, nip andbite and help you with that.
(28:12):
They're all there, there'splenty of them, there's fewer of
us,
Josh Meeder (28:16):
there's never a shortage of critics out there,
they always give us theirconstructive advice at the end,
Frankie Rollins (28:24):
you could go find them, they're there.
Josh Meeder (28:27):
Like I always say, you can get on my train, or you
can get run over it doesn'tmatter to me, just leave those
people under the tracks backthere. Looking forward, what is
on the horizon for you. And forfifth brain collective.
Frankie Rollins (28:42):
That is something that I'm obsessed with
right now. Because it's been thefirst year as I said, I've made
a lot of mistakes. And now I'mlearning now i and there were
mistakes, I could never haveknown how to I had to make them
to know them, or I had to do thething to even understand. So I'm
sort of reshaping I had a lot ofpoetic titles for my classes,
(29:03):
which was a mistake becausepeople don't know what they are.
So that was something I learnedso I'm doing some reshaping of
it. But it's an I'm creating anew I have a membership where
those people are writing andwriting and supporting each
other. I'm creating a new one ofthose. And it's it's really it's
(29:23):
expanding a little bit is iswhat what is next but it's still
it's just now that I know whenI've proven my concept that
conversation collaboration andweekly support with other people
is what we need to get ourcreative writing done. Now I'm
I'm creating things in the fifthbrain collective that are really
(29:44):
meant to promote that in this inthis world. So that's, that's
the work there. And I mean,here's the other key that is
amazing about this is that Imyself am writing I'm working on
three stories now and a newnovel while I'm running this
business, right? It's it's like,if you're doing the thing that
(30:04):
you most love to do, otherthings start to fall into that
that like aura that you'vecreated. And it's profound. It
is,
Josh Meeder (30:14):
I think, on the flip side of that, when you're
not working in your passion orin your flow, it is hard just to
get four things checked off yourchecklist, because it's a grind
to get through.
Frankie Rollins (30:22):
Right? Yes, it's all work. It's all
productivity. Yep.
Josh Meeder (30:27):
Now the those who are interested in working with
you, where are they at? in theirwriting, writing experience? Are
they first time writers? Isthere a general is it all across
the board? What does someone whowill be working with you look
like?
Frankie Rollins (30:43):
I am right now I'm creating new packages, I was
coaching hour by hour, but thenI've realized, like, people need
my expertise to guide them. Soif they're totally new, and just
ready, just have an idea, thenI'll work with them on Zoom,
where we talk about their idea.
And then I'll send them someprompts tailored to what they're
looking for, then maybe theiradvance, maybe they have a
chapter or a story, somethingdone. And they want me to read
(31:07):
that and give them feedback andtalk about how to move forward.
Also give them props for that.
But then I also have peoplewho've written a whole book, and
want the whole book review theywant, they want someone else to
have it in their heart andbrain. And so I'll read that for
them. They'll give me a list ofquestions, things they're
worried about. And then Irespond to that. And I also just
(31:28):
show them what their book lookslike, what the symbols are, what
the themes are, what the wherethe gaps are. So each one of
those is sort of a differentlevel. But but because my goal
is getting everyone who is thetiniest bit interested in
writing, writing, I havesomething for each different
sort of level they're on.
Josh Meeder (31:48):
Okay, so that's pretty clear to anyone from
anyone who has an idea and adesire or a curiosity to someone
who's already completed a bookand looking for some some
review. So while we're indifferent industries, we do have
a common style, or at least thecommon I feel like most heart
centered approach and, and whileI'm working on creating
(32:10):
businesses, in your reading oncreating our books, the deeper
work is healing hearts and mindsand in the people that we're
working with, in those peoplethat they affect. So from, from
the healing, almost the esotericexperience of what you're
creating, how do you see that?
How does that fill your worldand come out through your work?
(32:30):
I
Frankie Rollins (32:33):
love that. I love that idea. I love thinking
about that idea. And I think itis becoming a whole being part
of what creative writing andcreativity do as they give you
an opportunity to reallyunderstand who you are, what
you've been through where you'vebeen, what it doesn't even
matter what genre you're workingin. Because everything that you
(32:54):
do, informs the language thatyou choose the style that you're
writing in. And in thatwholeness, it's like we're
walking around, a lot of us arewalking around with big chunks
missing, you know, or things wedon't understand, like big
mysterious worlds that we'relike, I don't even know what
that world is in my brain, butit's there. But becoming more
(33:18):
aware of who you are and whatyou've been through. And owning
it. That's the part aboutwriting that really helps us it
allows people to own it, this ismy story. I'm writing it down, I
am the one, putting it here intothe world sharing it with the
world. And there's something soprofound in that ownership. And
(33:39):
that that self acknowledgementthat that creates a powerful
like then then we're dealingwith the whole being, you know,
we're not dealing with someonewho has has all these terrible
or difficult moments in theirlife just still raging and
influencing things they do,you're instead working with
somebody who, who who can arrivewith all of their, you know, all
(34:06):
of their faculties intact andclear. And, and, and just being
able to have a tool. So everytime something difficult
happens, my life I turned towriting I just immediately
turned to writing now. And soit's an it's a tool for healing
in that way. I mean, it isnumber one, my tool for healing.
Josh Meeder (34:28):
In correspondingly I feel the there's such a high
level high baseline that youwill have anxiety within our
society it I think it's onunprecedented levels, and in the
healing circles in work that Ido, not only with the coaching,
but in the other other realms.
I've seen that where people areso anxious, and they're
(34:49):
concerned about feeling unsafe,and it's such a trap and just to
share a little bit of myperspective and see if you
concur is the unfeeling unsafeis a trap that holds them in the
place. So it's I don't feel safetaking a risk to leave my job to
start a business. I don't feelsafe. What if I write a book and
(35:13):
it's failed? Or what if I hurtsomeone's feeling? Or what if it
doesn't work out? It's like thisall unsafe, and they're like,
Why can't start because I'm notsafe. When there's actually a
subtle shift to actually you'reuncomfortable. And the unsafe
pneus is what, you know, kind ofthe psychobabble in theory,
well, we got to feel safe. Wegot to do this. No, it's like
(35:34):
actually growth comes throughsometimes through being
uncomfortable. And how can youguide someone to see the
difference, but then to realizethat once you feel
uncomfortable, and you've movedthrough it, that discomfort is
pretty much gone. And you can goto a next next level, but it's
that first step or to to getsomeone out of feeling unsafe
into realizing that it's adiscomfort. Do you see that in
(35:59):
your writers? And how do youaddress that if it does come up?
Frankie Rollins (36:05):
I mean, all the time. That's the fear actually,
that I think I was talking aboutit first. And, you know, the
thing is that safety is, andthis actually goes back to the
pandemic too. It's, it's anillusion, most of the time
anyways, right? Though, theBuddhist precept that change is
the most essential quality oflife. Like, that's why people
(36:27):
hate change, because it feels souncomfortable. But, and it is
true. When you start puttingsomething on the paper, you're
exposing your thoughts, right,you're exposing your ideas,
you're, you're hoping someday tocontact someone to reach someone
with your writing. And it is Iam a risk taker by nature. Just
(36:49):
that's that is who I am. That'spart of why I was able to make
this great change for my ownlife, saved my own life,
honestly. And so what I do,almost more than talking someone
through that, I just, I model itand I take them through it, I
take a show them what it is likefor them to write I give people
prompts all the time that theyhave to write to maybe they have
(37:12):
five minutes, maybe they have 10minutes in their life. And then
they do it. And then they do it.
And then they become moreaccustomed to it. And they
realized that it's a way ofshortcutting all the
overthinking we do in our brain,and they can access something
more pure and authentic fromthemselves. So I really like
just starting just modeling howto just start is part of is the
(37:34):
real truth. Wait, wait for it.
Josh Meeder (37:42):
I love that and we need we need more of that more
of the risk taking more of thetaking chances. Because writing
something down on paper willprobably never cause you any
physical harm. You know, I thinkit's probably probably a safe
bet that you could try it justlike
Frankie Rollins (37:59):
crumple it up.
No one has to see it. I used tobe afraid that I would die when
my terrible first draft wasthere and the people would think
that was the best I could do.
And then I just realized howwhat what an elaborate neuroses
I had created.
Josh Meeder (38:18):
It's very enjoyable, you can write a story
about that one of your fairytales, everything. Well,
Frankie, thank you for sharing.
It's, it's a great story. AndI'm really excited for what
you're creating and yourstudents. If, if you're
interested in learning moreabout what Frankie shared the
you will find her website andhow to contact her in all the
(38:40):
show notes. And then thecomments here. And on closing,
like, is there anything elseyou'd like to send the audience
off with before we conclude?
Frankie Rollins (38:50):
I just I, I just want them to move forward
in an authentic way that feelsgood to them. That's what I want
for them. And whatever, whateverform that takes if it's
creative, or if it's just on adaily basis, you have permission
to be yourself.
Josh Meeder (39:07):
I love that. So there you have it, listeners,
everyone has permission to bethemselves to find their joy, to
find their bliss to confrontwhat's uncomfortable and
continue the growth pattern.
Frankie Rollins (39:18):
Yeah.
Josh Meeder (39:19):
So thanks again, Frankie. Thanks for tuning in
and look forward to the nextepisode coming out shortly.
Frankie Rollins (39:26):
Thank you for this beautiful conversation,
Josh. I appreciate it.
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