The biology of cannabis began in the mid-1960s with the identification of THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol) as marijuana's main active ingredient. But, what do we really know more than 50 years later? Listen to our interview with Dr. Daniela Vergara as she makes the biology of cannabis easy to understand and entertaining...
Connect W/ Dr Vergara:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/verdaniela/
https://vergarascience.com/
@CannaGenomics
https://www.facebook.com/cannagenome/
About Dr Vergara:
Evolutionary biologist, data analyst, educator, scientific writer, and public speaker. In addition to her multiple publications, she founded and directs a non-profit organization, the Agricultural Genomics Foundation (AGF; AgriculturalGenomics.org). AGF aims to make hemp and cannabinoid science available to a broad public. Vergara has been part of e scientific teams at private companies including Steep Hill, Inc. who are a global leader in agricultural testing, and the biotech company Front Range Biosciences.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ronjini Joshua (00:11):
Hello, and welcome to the green room
podcast. In today's episode weare interviewing Daniela Vergara
is a PhD and evolutionarybiologist, we have a really
great and candid conversationabout the biology of cannabis
research in cannabis and reallykind of go through everything
(00:32):
that she's learned about theindustry and how research and
educational and academic levelhas been affected by the
criminalization of marijuana.
She also talks about her journeyand gives us insight into the
dichotomy of, you know, hybridstrains and sativa and indica,
and kind of the biology,biological descriptions of that.
(00:55):
So hope you really enjoy thisconversation. Do not forget to
like us on Instagram andsubscribe. Let's get into the
green room. Hello, and thank youfor joining us in the green
room. today. We have DanielaVergara. She's an evolutionary
(01:16):
biologist and research associateat the University of Colorado
Boulder. Also, she is thepresident and founder of the
agricultural agriculturalgenomics foundation. Thank you
for joining us today, Daniela,
Dr. Daniela Vergara (01:32):
thank you very much for having me.
Ronjini Joshua (01:34):
So we usually start each of the podcasts with
a little bit of background onthe person and how they kind of
meandered into the world ofcannabis. So can you give us a
quick background on your I guessI'm guessing more. So your
educational background and howyou arrive to where you are
today?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (01:52):
Sure, yes.
So I I have a PhD inevolutionary biology from
Indiana University inBloomington. I, my my PhD was
mostly on post parasitecoevolution. And I was in
Indiana until 2013. And when Idefended my thesis, my husband
(02:16):
and I decided to move toColorado. He found a job hearing
in Colorado. So we moved and Istarted working with who's my
mentor, uncle's collaboratorNolan Kane. I was his postdoc
for some years. And then once Istarted doing consulting for the
(02:41):
industry, I moved from beingopposed to being a research
associate, which is my currenttitle. Um, and Nolan works with
a lot of different plants,mainly some flowers and I was
going to work with him insunflowers. I want to he's I
don't know missus, so he looksat the letters in the DNA. And
(03:04):
that the Yeah, the letters ofthe entire letters from the
whole genome. But at the time,Colorado was really utilizing
and so we had some questions andsome flowers about different
species coming together andforming hybrids. which I thought
(03:25):
were could also be appropriateto cannabis. So I started. This
was my husband's idea, actually,like he cares about sunflower to
seem like Why don't you work?
Ronjini Joshua (03:41):
And what can you just tell us? What year was
that?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (03:45):
That was late 2013. Okay. That was
actually, I think, October 2013.
When my husband was like, whydon't you do using cannabis? You
know, like, we're in Colorado islegal. And the recreational
sales in Colorado started inJanuary 1 2014.
Ronjini Joshua (04:06):
Okay, so you're right about to get into a more
open market?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (04:10):
Yes. Okay.
Why start started I'm workingon. So I went to Nolan. And I
was like, Hey, why don't we dothis and kind of this? And so he
was like, Yeah, good idea. So Imean, at the time, we thought,
like, yeah, this is awesome,this great idea. They didn't
know that. The first year wasgoing to be mainly meeting with
(04:33):
lawyers and university, aboutwhat we could do and what we
could not do about what we couldsay. And not say,
Ronjini Joshua (04:44):
all right, because you're conducting all
this research through theuniversity. Yes, got it. Yes.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (04:51):
That's still the case. We are not
allowed many, many, many thingsafter all of these years, given
that cannabis is still federallyillegal and that universities,
these big state universitieshave to abide to a lot of, of
federal rules. One of them isfederal funding. Right? Right.
(05:16):
So we're still on the vergeabout what to do what not to do
how to do things.
Ronjini Joshua (05:22):
Is it really more? Is it really more about
the positioning of how you wordit and say it what what you're
doing
Dr. Daniela Vergara (05:30):
well, in a way, yes. Because we're allowed
to work with him, right? Andhim. The legal definition of
hemp is anything that has lessthan 0.3% THC, okay? Right. He
is the psychoactive molecule theone that gets you high, right?
(05:50):
So whatever has less than 0.3%THC, we can work with that.
However, that legal definitionof hemp, legally hemp is
anything that has less than 0.3%THC, which is the psychoactive
compound that gets you high. Um,however, biologically, the hemp
(06:12):
grouping is what wastraditionally used industrially
for fiber or for oil. And thatindustrial grouping actually
forms a biological cluster theyshare more of their genome
they're more similar to eachother in their genome and
therefore they form a clusterbut that cluster it may or may
(06:37):
not be part of the legal clusterright i think that it's Yeah, I
actually think that it'sbeneficial for us because then
we can study marry one that haslow THC
Ronjini Joshua (06:51):
to nothing
Dr. Daniela Vergara (06:53):
so it's actually beneficial for us that
we can study anything that haslow THC because usually the
industrial hemp has low THC youknow, it's been bred for fiber
or for oil. So usually that one,it's fine it has low THC. And
then we can also study what issold a for for medical use for
high CBD for example, which alsohas low THC, and therefore the
(07:17):
legal definition kind ofencompasses, like that umbrella
encompasses more individualsthan just the biological hemp
definition.
Ronjini Joshua (07:25):
Right. So have you like, have you you mentioned
in I think in your bio, I sawthat you had been testifying
against you know, or witnessedan expert witness and some legal
cannabis testimony. So does thatcome up there? Like what what
kind of what kind of testimonycomes up when you're talking
(07:45):
about the legalities and thequantities and things like that
What do you usually talk aboutin those situations?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (07:54):
Yeah, I've been involved with some legal
witness cases. Um I one of themthat was a year ago was related
to the definitions between whatis defined as HAMP and what is
(08:14):
defined as marijuana right theFrench thing comparing it to the
to the federal definition whichI thought it was a super cool
case because I had to read thedefinitions that someone you
know wrote like okay, I'm goingto define hampers blah, blah
blah, right? And so I have toread them you know, and that's
someone that decided to drawthis line you know, like, I'm
(08:36):
just gonna define this as so Ihad to read them and compare the
definitions. So yeah, they docome up with Okay, is this hand
for is this not an N at the endof the day, you know, that maybe
that someone is going to go andyou know, I don't know serve
some sort of of purpose penaltyor something like that. I mean,
(08:57):
I don't know if going to prisonbut because I usually, you know,
with those type of things, it'skind of like, okay, someone is
going to pay some money grows.
Right or and then what otherI've been working in one
recently about Yeah, about thelab results from these people
(09:20):
that are saying like, yes, wegot these individuals and these
had really high THC, um,therefore, they cannot be hand
and then these other guys sayinglike, no, they actually didn't,
they have high CBD. And so I hadto look at the test results and
see, you know, what the testresults were saying. And then,
(09:42):
you know, we'll say Lud how manyindividuals were there? How much
they have costs. They've theyput this high CBD so that's the
most recent one that I've beenworking off.
Ronjini Joshua (09:55):
Well, it sounds like you're getting a lot of
these because the market is sounrig Related as far as like
testing and certification, sowhere do you see that going?
Like I think I mean, obviously,it's important to be able to
decipher between the two. Butwhen it becomes I mean, I guess
what is the proper qualitycontrol process? What what
should that be like for acompany that's producing
(10:18):
something and labeling it? Andyou know, giving you a numbers?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (10:23):
That's a great question. I mean, I
honestly don't see anythinggetting much better unless it's
federally legal not have anentity or foreseeing entity that
regulates all of these. All ofthese products right now, all of
(10:45):
the states have different lawsand different regulations. And
and you cannot cross state linewith with cannabis products, and
particularly, there's somestates where it's super ultra
illegal, and then you're introuble. Even if you're a
marijuana patient here inColorado, you may get in trouble
(11:06):
in other states. Right, right.
So so I don't see that there'sgoing to be any sort of
improvement unless we have a lawthat a federal regulation that
that kind of puts everyone inthe same boat, like, yeah, we
(11:29):
have different regulations fortobacco state by state, but in
general, right, you know, thereare some things that you have to
abide if you are producingtobacco, or in general, if
you're producing alcohol. And Ithink that for example, for
alcohol, I may be mistaken. Butfor alcohol, you cannot buy
alcohol in certain places.
(11:49):
laces, you know, like, you'renot going to go to a pharmacy
and buy 18 cents for certain ina pharmacy, which may happen
with cannabis. Right, at somepoint may be able to buy it in
the pharmacy. But also if you'reunder 21, you cannot buy
alcohol. Right, right. I'm inIndiana, for example, I don't
know if this law still I bet itis. But in Indiana, you cannot
(12:11):
buy alcohol on Sundays.
Ronjini Joshua (12:13):
Right there.
Yeah, there's other states likethat, that are like regulated
based on days or time, like past10 o'clock, or whatever the the
situation is. Yeah.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (12:22):
Yeah, yeah.
So but it's still you still havesome consent, some regulations
that you must abide in.
federally. And for example, Ithink it's really important to,
to have an entity that looks atthe seeds, for example, that
foresees all of these differenttesting labs. How are you
(12:47):
testing it? When are you testingit? What equipment are you using
to test it? How are you? How areyou keeping your equipment? Who
is testing it? What standardsare you using? What
methodologies I think thatthat's really important because
we know that there's sometesting labs some, right not
all, I know that there's somethat are very, very rigorous,
(13:09):
and very accurate, but there'ssome that it's kind of like,
well, if you give me some moremoney, I can just, you know,
bite your teeth?
Ronjini Joshua (13:18):
Well, I guess I'm guessing it's gonna come
under, like maybe the regulationof the FDA or would it be
someone else? Or you know, Iwould imagine if that's kind of
the case of what what you'retalking about with these
different you know, numbers andyou're talking about how and how
you're making it and you know,how, how they already deal with
like organic versus, you know,produced in a nut factory or,
(13:41):
you know, all these differentlabels that food already has,
would this be under that marker?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (13:49):
Yeah, maybe maybe would be under that
marker. I mean, again, you know,the drugs are under. Yeah, I
think that the FDA would be one.
I don't know what's going tohappen with a DEA.
Ronjini Joshua (14:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (14:07):
But, uh, but yeah, I think that
particularly if you're using itfor patient, you really need to
regulate. I mean, still, ifyou're using it as a consumer,
right, if you're just using itfor for recreation, you still
want to know many many things.
And, and you want to know thatit's safe, right? You want to
(14:29):
know that that beer that you'rebiting at the liquor store is
safe? Yeah, yeah. Marijuana youdon't want powdery mildew. You
don't want to go?
Ronjini Joshua (14:40):
Does does hybrid have like you were talking about
I mean, you guys started thisby, you know, talking about the
different strains and hybridstrains and creating new
different plans like does do youthink that kind of makes it more
complicated? Like what what doyou think, as far as like, all
these new strands of differentthings, coming out, we're having
(15:01):
Delta eight 910. You know, like,all that stuff like, how does it
affect all of this? I feel likeit's kind of you're like, you
know, they're diversifying themarket before it's even legal.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (15:14):
Yeah. And I don't know who was I listening
to the other day, saying thatusually the push from people on
the markets come before thelaws. So I think that this is
not this is common. Okay. Maybe,yeah. But, uh, but yeah, I mean,
(15:36):
we've been trying to figure outhow to classify cannabis. And we
know that many of the names thatthe industry gives are not
correct. For example, theIndyCar sativa? hybrid?
Ronjini Joshua (15:52):
Yeah, hearing a lot about that.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (15:55):
That is kind of BS a little bit. And
then, you know, they tell youlike, Oh, this one is 100%
indika. And this one is 100%. Sotiva, which, what does the mean?
100%? Like, what does that like?
How did you figure that out? Howdid you write like,
Ronjini Joshua (16:15):
what does it What does it mean from a
biological perspective?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (16:18):
Nothing.
Okay. Nothing? I do we do seethat there are groupings, right,
we see that there's individualsare more closely related to each
other than others. Right? I ammore closely related to my son,
then I'm to you.
Ronjini Joshua (16:36):
Yeah, right, right. Yeah.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (16:39):
Yeah, so we do see that there's individuals
from a group for example, theindustrial hemp, right? That
hemp that is used for oil, orfor fiber, those cluster
together, though those do form agroup. However, there's other
trades when they tell you Oh, ithas broadly, oh, it has broad
leaves, therefore, it's gonna becouch locking, right? That is a
(16:59):
huge, it's like saying, like,oh, that dog is white.
Therefore, it is big. Yeah, youcan also have a French poodle
that is white, and it's verysmall, right? Like that has no
correlation whatsoever, or, oh,you're tall, therefore, you're
blue eyed. That has nothing todo with one another, right?
Like, there's people that shorton our blue eye like those,
(17:22):
those traits are completelyindependent from each other.
those traits can be shuffledaround like a deck of cards,
through recombination,recombination is when you know,
you have mom and dad and somechunks of the genes of the
genome comes from here and thereand then you shuffle them
around, all of those traits canbe broken down so you can have a
(17:43):
tall cannabis plant that has alot of THC or a short cannabis
plant have a lot of THC, thosethings are completely
independent. And so when theytell you so I am not a medical
doctor, I am a PhD I'm not I donot recommend that anything any
use. But what I usually tellpeople is if you like whatever,
(18:06):
stray that was either indico orsativa, or hybrid or whatever
they call it, in that particulardispensary, go back to the
dispensary and buy the samething.
Ronjini Joshua (18:16):
Because it's not going to be the same somewhere
else Probably.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (18:19):
Probably and also because you know, any
physical characteristic is aproduct of a non environmental
nature or nurture. Right, right.
It depends also on how you growit. And all of those conditions,
all of those environmentalconditions.
Ronjini Joshua (18:36):
People basically what you're saying
Dr. Daniela Vergara (18:39):
anything, right and we call trade and a
friend of tipic trade is aproduct of genes and environment
some more gene some moreenvironment, but it's an
interaction between the two. Soif you like that particular one
because it helps you I don'tknow whether you're back pain,
go back and buy the same thingat the same place.
Ronjini Joshua (18:58):
I tried to have a conversation about this a
couple of weeks ago with someonebecause someone else is talking
about this is totally Bs, youknow, the the two strains are
totally BS. And I was I wastalking to them and this person
was like, recreational user fora long time. And he was not
having it. He did not believeme. I said, well look it up,
(19:19):
look it up, see what you find.
But I was like, This is what Ilearned because I talked to so
many people, especially with allthese interviews, and I've This
is not the first time I've heardit but it's it's so funny
because I was trying to convincesomebody who has had it like
really put into his mind thatyou know, it's like the indicus
diva they do certain things andthey're very specific and
they're always the same and sohe and I'm sure a lot of people
(19:42):
have that in their mind lockedin because they don't really
understand how the differentcomponents of you know now what
people are talking about all theyou know, the different
characteristics like you'resaying and the terpenes and this
and you know different elementsof the plant. But he's he was
very adamant that I was like,just blowing smoke.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (20:09):
It's, it's hard. Yeah. I've had also that
type of interactions withpeople. Yeah. And, you know, I'm
I'm Latino, um, I'm short. Andso I've had a lot of like,
honey. I've been smoking weedsince before you were born,
Ronjini Joshua (20:35):
or I know, I know what it what it is.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (20:38):
Yeah, I bet and, I mean, we both have like
names that are not thestereotypical white American
name right? And so I bet thatyou've handled to those
circumstances. I had ones thisveteran from Vietnam, who told
me like, I brought these seedsfrom Vietnam, you're not going
(21:01):
to tell me like I brought theseseeds. Before we were born? It's
like, sure, you know, and thenand then yeah, so I learned what
to say when Yeah. And who to sayit. Like that organic thing. I
(21:22):
also think that it's kind of BSright? It doesn't mean that he
doesn't have chemicals Yeah.
That he has certain that somepeople have said okay, well this
one
Ronjini Joshua (21:29):
these are acceptable. These are not
acceptable.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (21:32):
Yeah, right. Um, I I'm a big proponent
for GMOs. But those things thatcome out just a conversation. I
yeah, so so whenever you know, Itell people like Yeah, well, I'm
gonna do a DNA extraction. Somepeople are like, Whoa, you're
(21:53):
gonna Monsanto's eyes My weed.
I'm not sure why that means.
You're gonna GMO my weed. But,uh, but yeah, I had that I.
Ronjini Joshua (22:08):
Well, tell me a little bit about what you do at
the agriculture, agriculturalgenomics foundation? What What
do you guys do there? And, andhow are you working with the
industry to kind of, you know, Idon't know, standardize or
modernize it.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (22:22):
So I do, mostly what we do is education.
We do education and outreach, wetry to bring all of these
scientific fun findings to abroad public, you know, like,
all of the papers that I'vewritten, all of the scientific
papers that I've written, arefor a very small population. Not
(22:45):
many people read scientificpapers, basically, science for
scientists. And I felt thatthere was a disconnect between
there and the knowledge thatpeople were getting so we're
trying to do education, weactually have a podcast. Yeah.
What
Ronjini Joshua (23:05):
is the podcast called? Give us today? Sorry,
one more time.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (23:10):
Gonna be science today.
Ronjini Joshua (23:11):
Okay, perfect.
Well shout it out here.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (23:14):
Perfect.
Thank you. And we've found thata lot of the people that listen
to our podcasts are mainlycaregivers, medical users. So
we're trying to get to thesepeople and ask them, whether
they what information do theywant? And how do they want the
(23:34):
information delivered? I thinkthat the podcast has been very
successful in trying to educatethese medical consumers and
these caregivers, which I feelthat caregivers because I mean,
one of the reasons why westarted the agricultural
genomics Foundation was becausewe needed a platform for many
people that were looking forresources and didn't have. Yeah,
(23:57):
many people that were lookinglike mothers, for example, like,
Hey, I have a kid that has thiscondition, what do I do? Again,
we're not we do not recommendproducts, we do not recommend
like, okay, you should smokethis or you should be bad or you
should eat these. We don't dothat. However, we do try to
bring the most accurate findingsto these people on through AGF.
(24:26):
I've also done a lot ofoutreach, public outreach in
Spanish and in English and in inLatin American countries that
have some sort of regulatedmarket. Um, and we have courses.
We are teaching right now a kindof discourse at CU Boulder that
(24:49):
we developed through AGF and weare in the process of making a
second one. So this biologycourses a biology course, was
kind of a science. And thenwe're doing a second one in
biochemistry.
Ronjini Joshua (25:09):
So with the with that we more with like how, how
cannabis interacts with thesystem, the biological systems?
Is that? Um, or is it about theplant chemistry?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (25:22):
The plant chemistry, but also how you test
it right? Why do you need gaschromatography versus liquid
chromatography? What informationdo they give you? Why do they
give you different information?
Why do you need to test it inone versus the other? What are
cannabinoids? Yeah? Or can I bedifferent particular and then
looking at the actual molecule,right? The molecule, and I
(25:46):
really wanted to do this course.
And I'm working with threepeople on this. And one of them
is a chemist, I really wanted todo this course because I myself
wanted to understand thechemistry of the plant. I'm a
biologist, I understand thegenes I understand the genome,
like that part I'm verycomfortable with, but the
(26:07):
chemistry it's like, okay, butwhat what is the difference
between delta H and delta nine?
Writing the molecule? Or whywhat is alpha pinene? versus
beta? pinene? Right? That partof it or says vs trans? Is that
the same thing? Right. So we aregoing to have this, this course
is in the making, we hope tohave it ready, at some point
(26:29):
other in the fall. But, uh, butyeah, we we want to address all
of those biochemical questions.
And we want this course to be avery, like a one on one type, of
course. So that it's a, it'savailable for biologists, and
(26:51):
for, you know, introductorychemists from, you know,
beginning semesters or, orpsychologists, we want big, and
also for policymakers. Becauseat the end of the day, if you
makers are making all of theselaws and regulations without
really understanding thechemistry and the biology of the
(27:12):
plant.
Ronjini Joshua (27:14):
So I was gonna actually use mentioned
policymakers. But earlier, youmentioned that, you know, you've
been talking to a lot of medicalconsumers and patients. What
about the medical community? Andyou know, how would they be able
to incorporate a course likethis with medicine? Because
that's been, you know, not a lotof people are precise, you can't
prescribe, you know, you're notnecessarily prescribing it. So
(27:38):
like, how would they incorporatethat? And would this be
something that they couldincorporate into like a medical
horse?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (27:45):
I think so.
Yes. I think that, however,medical personnel, I don't know,
they're kind of like, their owntype of world. Yeah. I follow on
Twitter, those many people thatthat are open to prescribing
cannabis, and that, but I know,especially from one person in
(28:06):
Twitter, that's very vocal, andhe's a very renowned medical
doctor, who I actually admire alot. And he says things about
the other medical doctors like,Hey, guys, I read about it,
like, how can you say that it'sbad, but I know, people that are
medical doctors that are kind oflike, No, you should not use
(28:27):
that. Like, no, that is a drug.
But it's like, well, yeah, thatis a drug. But so is aspirin.
Right? So right. And so yeah, soso I, how you don't I have not
been in? I mean, I have inMexico, actually. And in
(28:48):
Colombia? Actually. I have hadconversations with medical
doctors. I think that they havebeen very, some of them, the
ones that go to this symposiumto these conferences are open to
it and are open to it. Yeah.
Yeah. So I think that it's beena biased population now by a
sample size of the medicaldoctors out there.
Ronjini Joshua (29:10):
Yeah, I mean, I'm wondering if once they
embrace it, it would seem alittle bit more, you know,
everyone's having this stigmaissue. So like, if the stigma
was less if a medical doctorwould actually openly say, Hey,
you know, maybe this is anoption for you, you know, versus
it being kind of quietly,quietly fed to them, you know,
(29:32):
in the background.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (29:34):
I agree. I agree. I i think that that is
true. I think that medicaldoctors in general, and again,
I'm just generalizing, andprobably all of them are like
this, but generally it's kind oflike well, it has 10 milligrams,
therefore you need to have threepills every eight hours for
(29:55):
right right and with with kindof business is not that way.
Unless you Extract the compoundsand then you have something like
Marinol right? Which is pureTHC, which people actually do
not like. And then it shows thatmaybe that entourage effect that
people are taught, I got all ofthe interaction between all of
(30:16):
these multiple compounds.
Perhaps that is real, right? Andperhaps because if you isolate
one, and you take that one, youdon't like it, and the effects
are not the same, but when youthere's
Ronjini Joshua (30:28):
no balance. Yes, yeah. So we
Dr. Daniela Vergara (30:31):
know that THC and CBD act in different
ways. And that CBD counteractsthe effects of THC, right? And
so you're just taking THC,you're not going to like it. But
if you take this whole, youknow, the, all these other
compounds, all of these othercompounds together, that may be
(30:54):
better. But that doesn't comewith like this, you know, yeah,
you can test it. And it comeslike with this amount of THC,
but it doesn't tell you aboutall of the different compounds,
like we're covering a bunch ofdifferent compounds. And so I
think it's in that way, it'sgoing to be really hard to tell
someone like, okay, you need totake this every six hours. Plus,
(31:19):
it's not recommended to smoke.
Right? Right. It's the best wayof confirm So, so maybe I don't
know, if this cookie or, or vapethe flour, not those vapors, not
though vape pens? No, but vapingthe actual flour, right? So,
yeah, but I do think that thestigma, I mean, I think that the
(31:40):
stigma is still gonna continue alittle bit I might I follow on
Twitter, a bunch of renownedacademics that show their drinks
on a Friday night, and this ismy mohito or this is, you know,
whatever I'm, I don't drink. SoI don't know, you know, like,
(32:00):
whatever people used to drink onthe BI is and then I put a
little whatever leave, you know,right. And that is okay. And
we're still trying to makecannabis. Okay, as well?
Ronjini Joshua (32:19):
Well, one thing I've heard from previous
researchers that we've talked tois just about the like you were
mentioning federal funding andthe lack of funding. And
obviously, you've been able todo a little bit of research in
Colorado. Are there any otheruniversities or any other places
that are doing research that arethat is going to impact the
(32:41):
industry in a way where like, itcould be widely spread out?
Because if the I feel like ifthe research is limited, it's
going to be hard to just doanything else?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (32:51):
Yeah, I agree. I mean, most of the
research that has been done atacademic institutions, you have
to not touch the plant. Okay.
For example,
Ronjini Joshua (33:10):
you have to extract is what you're saying?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (33:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So for me, it's been easybecause I do genomics. So I look
at you know, like, once yousequence a DNA, you have a bunch
of bioinformatics data, right?
And, and I just go into a serverand I look at letters, and then
I'll do statistical stuff andright, but if you want to
actually do experiments fromparents to offspring, or at
(33:36):
different locations, that ishard. I think Canada is doing a
bunch of stuff. They'redefinitely in the forefront.
Yeah. Um, but I think thatthere's as academic
institutions, more privateinstitutions, and some private
institutions like privatecompanies, there's well not out
(33:58):
in Oregon that had a good paperthat was published, I think, at
the beginning of this year, I'mFront Range, and I used to work
up steep hill, which was atesting, which is a testing
facility and then Up FrontRange. There's research being
done. But yeah, but it'sprivate. And I mean, there's
(34:20):
some universities I have myfriend on ash Robbie, who did
conduct research touching theplant at the University of
Northern Colorado, which is asmall university in Colorado,
but the big universities inColorado, at least are the big
universities across the US, Ithink that some of them are
opening hemp programs. Butnothing with THC.
Ronjini Joshua (34:44):
Yeah, just as a door like a little door to get
in. Yeah, yeah. Well, what areyou working on, you know,
outside of the stuff that youmentioned with a gf? You know,
what else are you working onright now as far as research and
what do you see coming up in theIn the next few, you know, I
guess next year is really whatwe're looking at.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (35:05):
What am I working in terms of research? I
mean, I'm finalizing projects. Ihad a paper that I recently
submitted, which was looking atthe genome of the night strains,
the National Institute for drugabuse. So we got a hold of some
DNA from them. And we sequencerand we compared this to strains
(35:30):
from the other strains that areavailable in dispensary's the
genome right does the genome andwe looked at different parts of
the genome and compared neiderto the other strains on and hemp
so we have hemp and andmarijuana. So that was recently
(35:53):
published. I I have been workinga lot on grants, actually a day
writing grants, because my fundmy funding is scars right now.
So I'm looking for ways tofunding my research and and so
I've been working on a lot of ingrants, many of them related
(36:15):
actually to the to the effectschromosomes. So in cannabis, you
have militias, so that arehermaphrodites. So and then you
have males, and you havefemales, but they can
interbreed. And the males havean X Y chromosome system kind of
(36:36):
like us, like humans. And thenthe females have an x x. The
militias. We don't really knowapparently they're
undifferentiated, but we don'texactly know, it seems that
there was a recent paper thatshowed the there was some
similarity to the X chromosomesin the females. So the money
(36:56):
issues on the X were similar,but we don't entirely know so
I've been writing grants on thatand thinking about that, that is
that really interests me. Um,but, but I want to start writing
a grant on cannabinoids. And onthe cannabinoid genes which I
(37:16):
have actually been working onfor, for some time, the genes
related to cannabis production,which are super interesting and
different from individual toindividual righties, they not
only differ in which genes theyhave, but on the number of genes
that they have. Um, and thesegenes seem very specific to
(37:40):
cannabis there was this paperthat was published last year
from this people in in theNetherlands and they show that
his genes are specific tocannabis and it seems that he
was kind of like an explosionthat after you know cannabis on
hops are the closest relatedexpense This is so existing
(38:04):
species okay. Yeah, beer onweed. So once they speciate to
once they diverged after thatdivergence in cannabis, this
gene seem to have been like anexplosion. Uh huh. And and so I
(38:26):
am interested in looking at thatas well. After I figure out some
more secure funding i think thatthat could be a possibility.
Ronjini Joshua (38:41):
Okay, that's funny I like that. So if someone
wanted to find you, or I thinkyou're consulting as well right?
Yes, doing some Yeah. So can youtell us about what was a little
bit about your consulting whoyou consult with? Are you can
consulting for cannabiscompanies specifically or people
who are doing policy change? Howare you doing that?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (39:04):
I've done consulting in policy change in
South America actually. Okay. Inpolicies. So I've done that a
little bit. I mean, I do expertwitness stuff as well. But um,
but yeah, I do a consulting forthe hemp and cannabis industry
(39:25):
about you know, what to plant ongenetics and, and
recommendations on on breeding.
I do that for both hemp andmarijuana like and then you
know, if they want someeducation like we could do with
(39:47):
3g or 4g, if they want some dataanalysis, I've also done a
little bit of that as well likeit do. statistics and data
analysis is still like It goes,
Ronjini Joshua (40:01):
Okay, perfect.
And where can people find you? Ihave at Cana genomics for for
the foundation. Is that correct?
No, that's my Twitter handle.
Oh, that's your Twitter handleOkay, at kind of genomics at
Twitter, I'll list alleverything in the show notes as
well. But is there a websitewhere people can find you or any
other places, Instagram, that'sgoing to stuff.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (40:22):
Um, I have a website. And it's my last name
better gotta go better goddessscience calm. And my last name
is VER ji AE Ra. So better datascience.com.
Ronjini Joshua (40:40):
Perfect.
Awesome. Well, thank you somuch. I think it's interesting,
we're getting so many differentsides of the story. So we're
getting everything from the rootto the like, you know, sales end
of it. So it's nice to hear allthe different processes and
things that go in place whenjust dealing with the industry
and how it's affecting, youknow, different types of people.
(41:00):
And I think that's one of thecool things about this podcast
is we're able to get all kindsof people on here so I really
appreciate your time. Thank youso much.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (41:11):
Well, thank you very much for having me. I
really appreciate it.
Ronjini Joshua (41:15):
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green hyphen room. Thanks forlistening and be well
Hello, and welcome to the green room
podcast. In today's episode weare interviewing Daniela Vergara
is a PhD and evolutionarybiologist, we have a really
great and candid conversationabout the biology of cannabis
research in cannabis and reallykind of go through everything
(00:32):
that she's learned about theindustry and how research and
educational and academic levelhas been affected by the
criminalization of marijuana.
She also talks about her journeyand gives us insight into the
dichotomy of, you know, hybridstrains and sativa and indica,
and kind of the biology,biological descriptions of that.
(00:55):
So hope you really enjoy thisconversation. Do not forget to
like us on Instagram andsubscribe. Let's get into the
green room. Hello, and thank youfor joining us in the green
room. today. We have DanielaVergara. She's an evolutionary
(01:16):
biologist and research associateat the University of Colorado
Boulder. Also, she is thepresident and founder of the
agricultural agriculturalgenomics foundation. Thank you
for joining us today, Daniela,
Dr. Daniela Vergara (01:32):
thank you very much for having me.
Ronjini Joshua (01:34):
So we usually start each of the podcasts with
a little bit of background onthe person and how they kind of
meandered into the world ofcannabis. So can you give us a
quick background on your I guessI'm guessing more. So your
educational background and howyou arrive to where you are
today?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (01:52):
Sure, yes.
So I I have a PhD inevolutionary biology from
Indiana University inBloomington. I, my my PhD was
mostly on post parasitecoevolution. And I was in
Indiana until 2013. And when Idefended my thesis, my husband
(02:16):
and I decided to move toColorado. He found a job hearing
in Colorado. So we moved and Istarted working with who's my
mentor, uncle's collaboratorNolan Kane. I was his postdoc
for some years. And then once Istarted doing consulting for the
(02:41):
industry, I moved from beingopposed to being a research
associate, which is my currenttitle. Um, and Nolan works with
a lot of different plants,mainly some flowers and I was
going to work with him insunflowers. I want to he's I
don't know missus, so he looksat the letters in the DNA. And
(03:04):
that the Yeah, the letters ofthe entire letters from the
whole genome. But at the time,Colorado was really utilizing
and so we had some questions andsome flowers about different
species coming together andforming hybrids. which I thought
(03:25):
were could also be appropriateto cannabis. So I started. This
was my husband's idea, actually,like he cares about sunflower to
seem like Why don't you work?
Ronjini Joshua (03:41):
And what can you just tell us? What year was
that?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (03:45):
That was late 2013. Okay. That was
actually, I think, October 2013.
When my husband was like, whydon't you do using cannabis? You
know, like, we're in Colorado islegal. And the recreational
sales in Colorado started inJanuary 1 2014.
Ronjini Joshua (04:06):
Okay, so you're right about to get into a more
open market?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (04:10):
Yes. Okay.
Why start started I'm workingon. So I went to Nolan. And I
was like, Hey, why don't we dothis and kind of this? And so he
was like, Yeah, good idea. So Imean, at the time, we thought,
like, yeah, this is awesome,this great idea. They didn't
know that. The first year wasgoing to be mainly meeting with
(04:33):
lawyers and university, aboutwhat we could do and what we
could not do about what we couldsay. And not say,
Ronjini Joshua (04:44):
all right, because you're conducting all
this research through theuniversity. Yes, got it. Yes.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (04:51):
That's still the case. We are not
allowed many, many, many thingsafter all of these years, given
that cannabis is still federallyillegal and that universities,
these big state universitieshave to abide to a lot of, of
federal rules. One of them isfederal funding. Right? Right.
(05:16):
So we're still on the vergeabout what to do what not to do
how to do things.
Ronjini Joshua (05:22):
Is it really more? Is it really more about
the positioning of how you wordit and say it what what you're
doing
Dr. Daniela Vergara (05:30):
well, in a way, yes. Because we're allowed
to work with him, right? Andhim. The legal definition of
hemp is anything that has lessthan 0.3% THC, okay? Right. He
is the psychoactive molecule theone that gets you high, right?
(05:50):
So whatever has less than 0.3%THC, we can work with that.
However, that legal definitionof hemp, legally hemp is
anything that has less than 0.3%THC, which is the psychoactive
compound that gets you high. Um,however, biologically, the hemp
(06:12):
grouping is what wastraditionally used industrially
for fiber or for oil. And thatindustrial grouping actually
forms a biological cluster theyshare more of their genome
they're more similar to eachother in their genome and
therefore they form a clusterbut that cluster it may or may
(06:37):
not be part of the legal clusterright i think that it's Yeah, I
actually think that it'sbeneficial for us because then
we can study marry one that haslow THC
Ronjini Joshua (06:51):
to nothing
Dr. Daniela Vergara (06:53):
so it's actually beneficial for us that
we can study anything that haslow THC because usually the
industrial hemp has low THC youknow, it's been bred for fiber
or for oil. So usually that one,it's fine it has low THC. And
then we can also study what issold a for for medical use for
high CBD for example, which alsohas low THC, and therefore the
(07:17):
legal definition kind ofencompasses, like that umbrella
encompasses more individualsthan just the biological hemp
definition.
Ronjini Joshua (07:25):
Right. So have you like, have you you mentioned
in I think in your bio, I sawthat you had been testifying
against you know, or witnessedan expert witness and some legal
cannabis testimony. So does thatcome up there? Like what what
kind of what kind of testimonycomes up when you're talking
(07:45):
about the legalities and thequantities and things like that
What do you usually talk aboutin those situations?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (07:54):
Yeah, I've been involved with some legal
witness cases. Um I one of themthat was a year ago was related
to the definitions between whatis defined as HAMP and what is
(08:14):
defined as marijuana right theFrench thing comparing it to the
to the federal definition whichI thought it was a super cool
case because I had to read thedefinitions that someone you
know wrote like okay, I'm goingto define hampers blah, blah
blah, right? And so I have toread them you know, and that's
someone that decided to drawthis line you know, like, I'm
(08:36):
just gonna define this as so Ihad to read them and compare the
definitions. So yeah, they docome up with Okay, is this hand
for is this not an N at the endof the day, you know, that maybe
that someone is going to go andyou know, I don't know serve
some sort of of purpose penaltyor something like that. I mean,
(08:57):
I don't know if going to prisonbut because I usually, you know,
with those type of things, it'skind of like, okay, someone is
going to pay some money grows.
Right or and then what otherI've been working in one
recently about Yeah, about thelab results from these people
(09:20):
that are saying like, yes, wegot these individuals and these
had really high THC, um,therefore, they cannot be hand
and then these other guys sayinglike, no, they actually didn't,
they have high CBD. And so I hadto look at the test results and
see, you know, what the testresults were saying. And then,
(09:42):
you know, we'll say Lud how manyindividuals were there? How much
they have costs. They've theyput this high CBD so that's the
most recent one that I've beenworking off.
Ronjini Joshua (09:55):
Well, it sounds like you're getting a lot of
these because the market is sounrig Related as far as like
testing and certification, sowhere do you see that going?
Like I think I mean, obviously,it's important to be able to
decipher between the two. Butwhen it becomes I mean, I guess
what is the proper qualitycontrol process? What what
should that be like for acompany that's producing
(10:18):
something and labeling it? Andyou know, giving you a numbers?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (10:23):
That's a great question. I mean, I
honestly don't see anythinggetting much better unless it's
federally legal not have anentity or foreseeing entity that
regulates all of these. All ofthese products right now, all of
(10:45):
the states have different lawsand different regulations. And
and you cannot cross state linewith with cannabis products, and
particularly, there's somestates where it's super ultra
illegal, and then you're introuble. Even if you're a
marijuana patient here inColorado, you may get in trouble
(11:06):
in other states. Right, right.
So so I don't see that there'sgoing to be any sort of
improvement unless we have a lawthat a federal regulation that
that kind of puts everyone inthe same boat, like, yeah, we
(11:29):
have different regulations fortobacco state by state, but in
general, right, you know, thereare some things that you have to
abide if you are producingtobacco, or in general, if
you're producing alcohol. And Ithink that for example, for
alcohol, I may be mistaken. Butfor alcohol, you cannot buy
alcohol in certain places.
(11:49):
laces, you know, like, you'renot going to go to a pharmacy
and buy 18 cents for certain ina pharmacy, which may happen
with cannabis. Right, at somepoint may be able to buy it in
the pharmacy. But also if you'reunder 21, you cannot buy
alcohol. Right, right. I'm inIndiana, for example, I don't
know if this law still I bet itis. But in Indiana, you cannot
(12:11):
buy alcohol on Sundays.
Ronjini Joshua (12:13):
Right there.
Yeah, there's other states likethat, that are like regulated
based on days or time, like past10 o'clock, or whatever the the
situation is. Yeah.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (12:22):
Yeah, yeah.
So but it's still you still havesome consent, some regulations
that you must abide in.
federally. And for example, Ithink it's really important to,
to have an entity that looks atthe seeds, for example, that
foresees all of these differenttesting labs. How are you
(12:47):
testing it? When are you testingit? What equipment are you using
to test it? How are you? How areyou keeping your equipment? Who
is testing it? What standardsare you using? What
methodologies I think thatthat's really important because
we know that there's sometesting labs some, right not
all, I know that there's somethat are very, very rigorous,
(13:09):
and very accurate, but there'ssome that it's kind of like,
well, if you give me some moremoney, I can just, you know,
bite your teeth?
Ronjini Joshua (13:18):
Well, I guess I'm guessing it's gonna come
under, like maybe the regulationof the FDA or would it be
someone else? Or you know, Iwould imagine if that's kind of
the case of what what you'retalking about with these
different you know, numbers andyou're talking about how and how
you're making it and you know,how, how they already deal with
like organic versus, you know,produced in a nut factory or,
(13:41):
you know, all these differentlabels that food already has,
would this be under that marker?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (13:49):
Yeah, maybe maybe would be under that
marker. I mean, again, you know,the drugs are under. Yeah, I
think that the FDA would be one.
I don't know what's going tohappen with a DEA.
Ronjini Joshua (14:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (14:07):
But, uh, but yeah, I think that
particularly if you're using itfor patient, you really need to
regulate. I mean, still, ifyou're using it as a consumer,
right, if you're just using itfor for recreation, you still
want to know many many things.
And, and you want to know thatit's safe, right? You want to
(14:29):
know that that beer that you'rebiting at the liquor store is
safe? Yeah, yeah. Marijuana youdon't want powdery mildew. You
don't want to go?
Ronjini Joshua (14:40):
Does does hybrid have like you were talking about
I mean, you guys started thisby, you know, talking about the
different strains and hybridstrains and creating new
different plans like does do youthink that kind of makes it more
complicated? Like what what doyou think, as far as like, all
these new strands of differentthings, coming out, we're having
(15:01):
Delta eight 910. You know, like,all that stuff like, how does it
affect all of this? I feel likeit's kind of you're like, you
know, they're diversifying themarket before it's even legal.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (15:14):
Yeah. And I don't know who was I listening
to the other day, saying thatusually the push from people on
the markets come before thelaws. So I think that this is
not this is common. Okay. Maybe,yeah. But, uh, but yeah, I mean,
(15:36):
we've been trying to figure outhow to classify cannabis. And we
know that many of the names thatthe industry gives are not
correct. For example, theIndyCar sativa? hybrid?
Ronjini Joshua (15:52):
Yeah, hearing a lot about that.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (15:55):
That is kind of BS a little bit. And
then, you know, they tell youlike, Oh, this one is 100%
indika. And this one is 100%. Sotiva, which, what does the mean?
100%? Like, what does that like?
How did you figure that out? Howdid you write like,
Ronjini Joshua (16:15):
what does it What does it mean from a
biological perspective?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (16:18):
Nothing.
Okay. Nothing? I do we do seethat there are groupings, right,
we see that there's individualsare more closely related to each
other than others. Right? I ammore closely related to my son,
then I'm to you.
Ronjini Joshua (16:36):
Yeah, right, right. Yeah.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (16:39):
Yeah, so we do see that there's individuals
from a group for example, theindustrial hemp, right? That
hemp that is used for oil, orfor fiber, those cluster
together, though those do form agroup. However, there's other
trades when they tell you Oh, ithas broadly, oh, it has broad
leaves, therefore, it's gonna becouch locking, right? That is a
(16:59):
huge, it's like saying, like,oh, that dog is white.
Therefore, it is big. Yeah, youcan also have a French poodle
that is white, and it's verysmall, right? Like that has no
correlation whatsoever, or, oh,you're tall, therefore, you're
blue eyed. That has nothing todo with one another, right?
Like, there's people that shorton our blue eye like those,
(17:22):
those traits are completelyindependent from each other.
those traits can be shuffledaround like a deck of cards,
through recombination,recombination is when you know,
you have mom and dad and somechunks of the genes of the
genome comes from here and thereand then you shuffle them
around, all of those traits canbe broken down so you can have a
(17:43):
tall cannabis plant that has alot of THC or a short cannabis
plant have a lot of THC, thosethings are completely
independent. And so when theytell you so I am not a medical
doctor, I am a PhD I'm not I donot recommend that anything any
use. But what I usually tellpeople is if you like whatever,
(18:06):
stray that was either indico orsativa, or hybrid or whatever
they call it, in that particulardispensary, go back to the
dispensary and buy the samething.
Ronjini Joshua (18:16):
Because it's not going to be the same somewhere
else Probably.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (18:19):
Probably and also because you know, any
physical characteristic is aproduct of a non environmental
nature or nurture. Right, right.
It depends also on how you growit. And all of those conditions,
all of those environmentalconditions.
Ronjini Joshua (18:36):
People basically what you're saying
Dr. Daniela Vergara (18:39):
anything, right and we call trade and a
friend of tipic trade is aproduct of genes and environment
some more gene some moreenvironment, but it's an
interaction between the two. Soif you like that particular one
because it helps you I don'tknow whether you're back pain,
go back and buy the same thingat the same place.
Ronjini Joshua (18:58):
I tried to have a conversation about this a
couple of weeks ago with someonebecause someone else is talking
about this is totally Bs, youknow, the the two strains are
totally BS. And I was I wastalking to them and this person
was like, recreational user fora long time. And he was not
having it. He did not believeme. I said, well look it up,
(19:19):
look it up, see what you find.
But I was like, This is what Ilearned because I talked to so
many people, especially with allthese interviews, and I've This
is not the first time I've heardit but it's it's so funny
because I was trying to convincesomebody who has had it like
really put into his mind thatyou know, it's like the indicus
diva they do certain things andthey're very specific and
they're always the same and sohe and I'm sure a lot of people
(19:42):
have that in their mind lockedin because they don't really
understand how the differentcomponents of you know now what
people are talking about all theyou know, the different
characteristics like you'resaying and the terpenes and this
and you know different elementsof the plant. But he's he was
very adamant that I was like,just blowing smoke.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (20:09):
It's, it's hard. Yeah. I've had also that
type of interactions withpeople. Yeah. And, you know, I'm
I'm Latino, um, I'm short. Andso I've had a lot of like,
honey. I've been smoking weedsince before you were born,
Ronjini Joshua (20:35):
or I know, I know what it what it is.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (20:38):
Yeah, I bet and, I mean, we both have like
names that are not thestereotypical white American
name right? And so I bet thatyou've handled to those
circumstances. I had ones thisveteran from Vietnam, who told
me like, I brought these seedsfrom Vietnam, you're not going
(21:01):
to tell me like I brought theseseeds. Before we were born? It's
like, sure, you know, and thenand then yeah, so I learned what
to say when Yeah. And who to sayit. Like that organic thing. I
(21:22):
also think that it's kind of BSright? It doesn't mean that he
doesn't have chemicals Yeah.
That he has certain that somepeople have said okay, well this
one
Ronjini Joshua (21:29):
these are acceptable. These are not
acceptable.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (21:32):
Yeah, right. Um, I I'm a big proponent
for GMOs. But those things thatcome out just a conversation. I
yeah, so so whenever you know, Itell people like Yeah, well, I'm
gonna do a DNA extraction. Somepeople are like, Whoa, you're
(21:53):
gonna Monsanto's eyes My weed.
I'm not sure why that means.
You're gonna GMO my weed. But,uh, but yeah, I had that I.
Ronjini Joshua (22:08):
Well, tell me a little bit about what you do at
the agriculture, agriculturalgenomics foundation? What What
do you guys do there? And, andhow are you working with the
industry to kind of, you know, Idon't know, standardize or
modernize it.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (22:22):
So I do, mostly what we do is education.
We do education and outreach, wetry to bring all of these
scientific fun findings to abroad public, you know, like,
all of the papers that I'vewritten, all of the scientific
papers that I've written, arefor a very small population. Not
(22:45):
many people read scientificpapers, basically, science for
scientists. And I felt thatthere was a disconnect between
there and the knowledge thatpeople were getting so we're
trying to do education, weactually have a podcast. Yeah.
What
Ronjini Joshua (23:05):
is the podcast called? Give us today? Sorry,
one more time.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (23:10):
Gonna be science today.
Ronjini Joshua (23:11):
Okay, perfect.
Well shout it out here.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (23:14):
Perfect.
Thank you. And we've found thata lot of the people that listen
to our podcasts are mainlycaregivers, medical users. So
we're trying to get to thesepeople and ask them, whether
they what information do theywant? And how do they want the
(23:34):
information delivered? I thinkthat the podcast has been very
successful in trying to educatethese medical consumers and
these caregivers, which I feelthat caregivers because I mean,
one of the reasons why westarted the agricultural
genomics Foundation was becausewe needed a platform for many
people that were looking forresources and didn't have. Yeah,
(23:57):
many people that were lookinglike mothers, for example, like,
Hey, I have a kid that has thiscondition, what do I do? Again,
we're not we do not recommendproducts, we do not recommend
like, okay, you should smokethis or you should be bad or you
should eat these. We don't dothat. However, we do try to
bring the most accurate findingsto these people on through AGF.
(24:26):
I've also done a lot ofoutreach, public outreach in
Spanish and in English and in inLatin American countries that
have some sort of regulatedmarket. Um, and we have courses.
We are teaching right now a kindof discourse at CU Boulder that
(24:49):
we developed through AGF and weare in the process of making a
second one. So this biologycourses a biology course, was
kind of a science. And thenwe're doing a second one in
biochemistry.
Ronjini Joshua (25:09):
So with the with that we more with like how, how
cannabis interacts with thesystem, the biological systems?
Is that? Um, or is it about theplant chemistry?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (25:22):
The plant chemistry, but also how you test
it right? Why do you need gaschromatography versus liquid
chromatography? What informationdo they give you? Why do they
give you different information?
Why do you need to test it inone versus the other? What are
cannabinoids? Yeah? Or can I bedifferent particular and then
looking at the actual molecule,right? The molecule, and I
(25:46):
really wanted to do this course.
And I'm working with threepeople on this. And one of them
is a chemist, I really wanted todo this course because I myself
wanted to understand thechemistry of the plant. I'm a
biologist, I understand thegenes I understand the genome,
like that part I'm verycomfortable with, but the
(26:07):
chemistry it's like, okay, butwhat what is the difference
between delta H and delta nine?
Writing the molecule? Or whywhat is alpha pinene? versus
beta? pinene? Right? That partof it or says vs trans? Is that
the same thing? Right. So we aregoing to have this, this course
is in the making, we hope tohave it ready, at some point
(26:29):
other in the fall. But, uh, butyeah, we we want to address all
of those biochemical questions.
And we want this course to be avery, like a one on one type, of
course. So that it's a, it'savailable for biologists, and
(26:51):
for, you know, introductorychemists from, you know,
beginning semesters or, orpsychologists, we want big, and
also for policymakers. Becauseat the end of the day, if you
makers are making all of theselaws and regulations without
really understanding thechemistry and the biology of the
(27:12):
plant.
Ronjini Joshua (27:14):
So I was gonna actually use mentioned
policymakers. But earlier, youmentioned that, you know, you've
been talking to a lot of medicalconsumers and patients. What
about the medical community? Andyou know, how would they be able
to incorporate a course likethis with medicine? Because
that's been, you know, not a lotof people are precise, you can't
prescribe, you know, you're notnecessarily prescribing it. So
(27:38):
like, how would they incorporatethat? And would this be
something that they couldincorporate into like a medical
horse?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (27:45):
I think so.
Yes. I think that, however,medical personnel, I don't know,
they're kind of like, their owntype of world. Yeah. I follow on
Twitter, those many people thatthat are open to prescribing
cannabis, and that, but I know,especially from one person in
(28:06):
Twitter, that's very vocal, andhe's a very renowned medical
doctor, who I actually admire alot. And he says things about
the other medical doctors like,Hey, guys, I read about it,
like, how can you say that it'sbad, but I know, people that are
medical doctors that are kind oflike, No, you should not use
(28:27):
that. Like, no, that is a drug.
But it's like, well, yeah, thatis a drug. But so is aspirin.
Right? So right. And so yeah, soso I, how you don't I have not
been in? I mean, I have inMexico, actually. And in
(28:48):
Colombia? Actually. I have hadconversations with medical
doctors. I think that they havebeen very, some of them, the
ones that go to this symposiumto these conferences are open to
it and are open to it. Yeah.
Yeah. So I think that it's beena biased population now by a
sample size of the medicaldoctors out there.
Ronjini Joshua (29:10):
Yeah, I mean, I'm wondering if once they
embrace it, it would seem alittle bit more, you know,
everyone's having this stigmaissue. So like, if the stigma
was less if a medical doctorwould actually openly say, Hey,
you know, maybe this is anoption for you, you know, versus
it being kind of quietly,quietly fed to them, you know,
(29:32):
in the background.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (29:34):
I agree. I agree. I i think that that is
true. I think that medicaldoctors in general, and again,
I'm just generalizing, andprobably all of them are like
this, but generally it's kind oflike well, it has 10 milligrams,
therefore you need to have threepills every eight hours for
(29:55):
right right and with with kindof business is not that way.
Unless you Extract the compoundsand then you have something like
Marinol right? Which is pureTHC, which people actually do
not like. And then it shows thatmaybe that entourage effect that
people are taught, I got all ofthe interaction between all of
(30:16):
these multiple compounds.
Perhaps that is real, right? Andperhaps because if you isolate
one, and you take that one, youdon't like it, and the effects
are not the same, but when youthere's
Ronjini Joshua (30:28):
no balance. Yes, yeah. So we
Dr. Daniela Vergara (30:31):
know that THC and CBD act in different
ways. And that CBD counteractsthe effects of THC, right? And
so you're just taking THC,you're not going to like it. But
if you take this whole, youknow, the, all these other
compounds, all of these othercompounds together, that may be
(30:54):
better. But that doesn't comewith like this, you know, yeah,
you can test it. And it comeslike with this amount of THC,
but it doesn't tell you aboutall of the different compounds,
like we're covering a bunch ofdifferent compounds. And so I
think it's in that way, it'sgoing to be really hard to tell
someone like, okay, you need totake this every six hours. Plus,
(31:19):
it's not recommended to smoke.
Right? Right. It's the best wayof confirm So, so maybe I don't
know, if this cookie or, or vapethe flour, not those vapors, not
though vape pens? No, but vapingthe actual flour, right? So,
yeah, but I do think that thestigma, I mean, I think that the
(31:40):
stigma is still gonna continue alittle bit I might I follow on
Twitter, a bunch of renownedacademics that show their drinks
on a Friday night, and this ismy mohito or this is, you know,
whatever I'm, I don't drink. SoI don't know, you know, like,
(32:00):
whatever people used to drink onthe BI is and then I put a
little whatever leave, you know,right. And that is okay. And
we're still trying to makecannabis. Okay, as well?
Ronjini Joshua (32:19):
Well, one thing I've heard from previous
researchers that we've talked tois just about the like you were
mentioning federal funding andthe lack of funding. And
obviously, you've been able todo a little bit of research in
Colorado. Are there any otheruniversities or any other places
that are doing research that arethat is going to impact the
(32:41):
industry in a way where like, itcould be widely spread out?
Because if the I feel like ifthe research is limited, it's
going to be hard to just doanything else?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (32:51):
Yeah, I agree. I mean, most of the
research that has been done atacademic institutions, you have
to not touch the plant. Okay.
For example,
Ronjini Joshua (33:10):
you have to extract is what you're saying?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (33:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So for me, it's been easybecause I do genomics. So I look
at you know, like, once yousequence a DNA, you have a bunch
of bioinformatics data, right?
And, and I just go into a serverand I look at letters, and then
I'll do statistical stuff andright, but if you want to
actually do experiments fromparents to offspring, or at
(33:36):
different locations, that ishard. I think Canada is doing a
bunch of stuff. They'redefinitely in the forefront.
Yeah. Um, but I think thatthere's as academic
institutions, more privateinstitutions, and some private
institutions like privatecompanies, there's well not out
(33:58):
in Oregon that had a good paperthat was published, I think, at
the beginning of this year, I'mFront Range, and I used to work
up steep hill, which was atesting, which is a testing
facility and then Up FrontRange. There's research being
done. But yeah, but it'sprivate. And I mean, there's
(34:20):
some universities I have myfriend on ash Robbie, who did
conduct research touching theplant at the University of
Northern Colorado, which is asmall university in Colorado,
but the big universities inColorado, at least are the big
universities across the US, Ithink that some of them are
opening hemp programs. Butnothing with THC.
Ronjini Joshua (34:44):
Yeah, just as a door like a little door to get
in. Yeah, yeah. Well, what areyou working on, you know,
outside of the stuff that youmentioned with a gf? You know,
what else are you working onright now as far as research and
what do you see coming up in theIn the next few, you know, I
guess next year is really whatwe're looking at.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (35:05):
What am I working in terms of research? I
mean, I'm finalizing projects. Ihad a paper that I recently
submitted, which was looking atthe genome of the night strains,
the National Institute for drugabuse. So we got a hold of some
DNA from them. And we sequencerand we compared this to strains
(35:30):
from the other strains that areavailable in dispensary's the
genome right does the genome andwe looked at different parts of
the genome and compared neiderto the other strains on and hemp
so we have hemp and andmarijuana. So that was recently
(35:53):
published. I I have been workinga lot on grants, actually a day
writing grants, because my fundmy funding is scars right now.
So I'm looking for ways tofunding my research and and so
I've been working on a lot of ingrants, many of them related
(36:15):
actually to the to the effectschromosomes. So in cannabis, you
have militias, so that arehermaphrodites. So and then you
have males, and you havefemales, but they can
interbreed. And the males havean X Y chromosome system kind of
(36:36):
like us, like humans. And thenthe females have an x x. The
militias. We don't really knowapparently they're
undifferentiated, but we don'texactly know, it seems that
there was a recent paper thatshowed the there was some
similarity to the X chromosomesin the females. So the money
(36:56):
issues on the X were similar,but we don't entirely know so
I've been writing grants on thatand thinking about that, that is
that really interests me. Um,but, but I want to start writing
a grant on cannabinoids. And onthe cannabinoid genes which I
(37:16):
have actually been working onfor, for some time, the genes
related to cannabis production,which are super interesting and
different from individual toindividual righties, they not
only differ in which genes theyhave, but on the number of genes
that they have. Um, and thesegenes seem very specific to
(37:40):
cannabis there was this paperthat was published last year
from this people in in theNetherlands and they show that
his genes are specific tocannabis and it seems that he
was kind of like an explosionthat after you know cannabis on
hops are the closest relatedexpense This is so existing
(38:04):
species okay. Yeah, beer onweed. So once they speciate to
once they diverged after thatdivergence in cannabis, this
gene seem to have been like anexplosion. Uh huh. And and so I
(38:26):
am interested in looking at thatas well. After I figure out some
more secure funding i think thatthat could be a possibility.
Ronjini Joshua (38:41):
Okay, that's funny I like that. So if someone
wanted to find you, or I thinkyou're consulting as well right?
Yes, doing some Yeah. So can youtell us about what was a little
bit about your consulting whoyou consult with? Are you can
consulting for cannabiscompanies specifically or people
who are doing policy change? Howare you doing that?
Dr. Daniela Vergara (39:04):
I've done consulting in policy change in
South America actually. Okay. Inpolicies. So I've done that a
little bit. I mean, I do expertwitness stuff as well. But um,
but yeah, I do a consulting forthe hemp and cannabis industry
(39:25):
about you know, what to plant ongenetics and, and
recommendations on on breeding.
I do that for both hemp andmarijuana like and then you
know, if they want someeducation like we could do with
(39:47):
3g or 4g, if they want some dataanalysis, I've also done a
little bit of that as well likeit do. statistics and data
analysis is still like It goes,
Ronjini Joshua (40:01):
Okay, perfect.
And where can people find you? Ihave at Cana genomics for for
the foundation. Is that correct?
No, that's my Twitter handle.
Oh, that's your Twitter handleOkay, at kind of genomics at
Twitter, I'll list alleverything in the show notes as
well. But is there a websitewhere people can find you or any
other places, Instagram, that'sgoing to stuff.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (40:22):
Um, I have a website. And it's my last name
better gotta go better goddessscience calm. And my last name
is VER ji AE Ra. So better datascience.com.
Ronjini Joshua (40:40):
Perfect.
Awesome. Well, thank you somuch. I think it's interesting,
we're getting so many differentsides of the story. So we're
getting everything from the rootto the like, you know, sales end
of it. So it's nice to hear allthe different processes and
things that go in place whenjust dealing with the industry
and how it's affecting, youknow, different types of people.
(41:00):
And I think that's one of thecool things about this podcast
is we're able to get all kindsof people on here so I really
appreciate your time. Thank youso much.
Dr. Daniela Vergara (41:11):
Well, thank you very much for having me. I
really appreciate it.
Ronjini Joshua (41:15):
The Green Room podcast is brought to life by
green seed PR, a cannabis greentech focused PR agency and a
dedicated production team ofeditors mixers and show
Booker's. A huge thank you tothe vessel team for providing
their studio for our reporting.
Don't forget to subscribe andshare the greenroom podcast with
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miss an episode and we can keepthe lights on. If you're feeling
(41:37):
extra generous, please leave usreview on your favorite podcast
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on YouTube. Would you like to beon the guests on the show? Or do
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Awesome. Submit your guests atGreen CPR comm slash the hyphen
(42:00):
green hyphen room. Thanks forlistening and be well
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