March 26, 2025 • 52 mins
Esther Goldstein radiates empathy. Esther’s childhood experiences with grief shaped the path her life took, and now as a highly sought-after therapist, her primary desire is to help her clients navigate their grief.
Esther and I discuss the importance of connecting with clients on a personal level. Being a therapist isn't only about knowing the clinical facts and what the research says; it's about making genuine connections and respecting each other's experiences and personalities.
Esther talks about transparency—being open about what you're experiencing - even with your children. It's okay to tell your children, "I'm a bit anxious about something, but I will work through it. You don’t have to worry."
Speaking of transparency… come listen to Esther share her own experiences in taking a client role instead of a therapist role when she realized she would benefit from a therapist's help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by IloyNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hi everybody, Thank you so much for joining me here
today on the Relief From Griefpodcast.
Today is very exciting becausetoday Mrs Esther Goldstein is
joining us.
Mrs Esther Goldstein, she's atherapist who does lots of group
therapy in the five towns andshe does a lot of group therapy
for Mayrim and I'm so happy tohave you on.
(01:16):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, I'm really glad to be here, mariam.
I know that when Glenn reachedout to me right the founder of
Mayrim reached out and said thathe wanted to start a podcast, I
was really touched because somany times like, yeah, I've been
at the Chabaton and I know thatthey run these weekends or
groups.
I know I ran a group one nightfor bereaved moms and we were
(01:40):
doing like a mask event for theinside and outside of how
mothers were feeling about lossand almost like the masks with
like Esther and Purim.
But what I found is that whenit comes to grief, there could
never be enough support.
There can never be enoughconversation.
Sometimes just hearing someonetalk about an experience or an
(02:01):
emotion or an insight can reallylend well.
So I'm just really glad andgrateful that Miriam is creating
another kind of roadway ofsupport for those who are
navigating grief and loss.
Thank you for having me on heretoday.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Thank you.
Yeah, you should know.
It's very interesting because,even though I only recently
started doing this podcast forMiriam, I was doing it in the
past, for I think it's been overtwo years doing this podcast
for Mayhem.
I was doing it in the past, forI think it's been over two
years and the feedback that Iget always like amazes me that
there's just that one thing thatsomeone just had to hear and
like changes their whole day,their whole week, their whole
(02:35):
perspective, their whole lifeand, like you said, I guess like
there really can never be toomuch in three.
Yeah, you as a professional,you could definitely share with
us lots of professional insights, but why don't we start off a
little bit with your ownpersonal story?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Everyone likes diving into the personal meat, huh,
okay.
So basically maybe I'll justshare a little bit about who I
am as a professional.
Then I'll talk a little bitabout like grief as a person.
So just to introduce myself, myname is Esther Goldstein.
I'm an anxiety and traumatherapist.
In the five towns we have agroup practice that specializes
(03:15):
in healing anxiety and traumaand like our primary goal is
really to help people have lesssymptoms.
So often there could be likegrief loss, abandonment, neglect
, and what I've been veryprotective over is like helping
people feel not pathologized bytheir symptoms, so like we're
not judging or giving people asmuch a diagnosis, as much as
we're looking at, okay, how dowe help people heal?
(03:36):
I did my master's and then Idid a post-grad in Israel at
Hebrew U, when I was likehelping people navigating like
addiction and struggling withself-harm or very intense
anxiety or panic, and I wantedto look at like what allows some
people to heal or to holdsobriety from drug addiction or
(03:56):
forms of numbing or coping andhow come some other people kept
relapsing or going back tounhealthy behaviors or
relationships and a lot of itlanded on trauma.
Why am I sharing all of this?
Because in my years of being atherapist so most people know is
that anyway.
Since then I've come back toAmerica, created a group
practice.
I have a trauma trainingprogram as well for therapists
(04:19):
around the world that I train.
I'm a somatic therapist, ifsand EMDR.
I actually have a book that'scoming out with the new
Harbinger.
But I guess, as I reflect on allof this, like most therapists
are wounded healers or have somekind of passion for coming into
this field, usually because weare looking for a sense of
meaning or to give back or tofind our own level of healing or
(04:40):
wholeness in ourselves, andthen when we do the work to
become more wholesome, we kindof become like a vessel of
healing for other people.
So I think that I found like,over the years, part of my
motivation or inspiration wasobviously like wanting to
navigate understanding my ownanxiety or discomfort in my body
(05:01):
.
That was anxiety I was holding,discomfort in my body, that was
anxiety I was holding, and alot of it was related to
unspoken grief in my familyhistory.
And so it's interesting, miriam, when, as we were talking, you
said could you talk about thisLike we were talking, I said I
could talk about it as aprofessional and invisible grief
, or disenfranchised grief, orgrief of, obviously, death and
loss, because grief really ispart and parcel of human
(05:24):
experience, where we are alwayslike losing things and things
are shifting, but it's veryunique when it comes to death,
right, the finality of like aliving experience.
When you said to me, share yourpersonal story, I was taken
aback because usually, like atretreats or obviously as
therapists, like you reallydon't share much.
The goal is really to holdspace for a client's experience
and we share just as much asmaybe could be helpful, but we
(05:47):
usually are on the side of notsharing.
So I'm actually curious.
I'm happy to share, but I'mcurious, like what was it that
made you ask, like, can youshare about grief in your life?
Like what were you thinking orwhat are you hoping for the
audience to hear?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
So too clinical is boring.
Yeah, people connect much moreto other people's personal
experiences.
Yeah, so you know, and askingyou to come on besides that, you
know, glenn Holman told me youknow have to ask you to come on
(06:25):
and besides that, I'm sure thatyou have so much to share.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
From a therapist perspective, there's so much to
be gained from a therapist thatwe also get to connect to her
human side and her human losses.
Yeah, okay, I do think that,first of all, thanks for sharing
that I know for myself, like Ipersonally connect most with
people who are like human firstand professional second.
Right, I think it takes like afine line of like knowing how
much to share or when to share,but I do think like the lived
(06:50):
experience of humanity is reallywhat connects us together.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So, very briefly, you just made me think of something
.
Yeah, so everything issomething just interesting.
You know I wrote we didn't eventalk about my story, but
obviously I have my whole youknow own brief story and I wrote
an article about it a few yearsago.
It was in the Mishpacha and Igot I got a lot of feedback on
it and a lot of comments, like Iremember one person especially
(07:15):
saying like wow, you reallybeard your soul over there.
And it was funny to me becauseI thought to myself to you, it
does, it does seem like that,but really I didn't like there's
so much that I didn't sharethat I don't need the whole
world to.
You know, at least at thatpoint I didn't need to make that
public.
So when you said, what did?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
you say before that it's a fine line of how much we
share right or how much we hold.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Right.
Also, some people are so usedto keeping things in that, like
sharing two percent could feellike a lot for someone else, or
it could feel like just theright amount for someone, and
it's really a matter of knowingwhat feels right for us to share
, because whenever we shareright, there's always other
people's stories, we're alwayskicking up against other
people's stories.
So to me it's like honoring myfamily, honoring everybody's
(08:03):
emotional realities of how theyprocess grief and loss.
So I think, just like finding aline to be respectful while
also giving voice and experienceis really important.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So most people always tell me that when I interviewed
him, he goes you got out of memore than anyone else ever gets
out of me.
You just didn't let up.
So if I start overstepping overhere.
You let me know didn't let up.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
So if I start overstepping over here, you let
me know.
Yeah, Thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
So I think that what happenedwas when I was younger.
I had my mom is one girl, shecomes from a family of eight,
seven brothers and when I wasvery young and when I was very
(08:50):
young, one of my uncles passedaway.
And it wasn't about the, Ithink it was the way that he,
the way that the family dealtwith the loss at that point in
time.
He was the youngest of thefamily.
Everyone else was married andout, so he was like the one
uncle that was always home.
So, whenever we went, all of uslike all of the siblings with
their kids came to mygrandparents' house and it was
like joyous.
They lived in Borough Parks.
It was very festive.
I used to go with my fatheractually um to Tish Friday night
(09:12):
when I was very, very little.
We used to be very close to theBaba Rabba, rav Shalima, halvah
, shalom, so um.
But I remember like reallyfeeling festive and joyous.
So when my uncle died, I thinkthe way that the family dealt
with it or wanted to deal withit was really harder on the
children than I think that theymight have realized.
(09:33):
And even as I talk about it now, it brings up a lot of emotions
for me, like a lot of sadness.
But basically he got injuredand then he was in the hospital
for two weeks and in those twoweeks we were all like davening
and saying to him and themessaging that I kept getting
and my siblings and relativesand cousins kept getting is it's
(09:55):
getting better.
Wow, I'm getting so emotionaltalking about this right now,
but and then when he um, one ofthe adults in the family said
like he's all better now, and Iremember being so excited
because I was writing him cards,um, and I also could tell like
(10:15):
the sadness from my parents andmy grandparents and my aunts and
uncles, like there was justlike a heaviness.
It was the night of Hanukkahwhere we were all supposed to go
out to get like Hanukkahpresents and we heard like he's
not okay, um, and so I rememberthe confusion as a kid of coming
home and then saying, okay,where is he?
And then being told, oh, he'sin, like the best place ever,
(10:38):
and I said, okay, where is he?
I can't wait to see him.
How was it?
Was the hospital, um?
And then, um, being told, oh,like, he's with, like malachim,
with angels and shemayim, and Idon't know if it was so much
like the words of like the hopeof like he's all better, and
then being told like, oh,actually he's like in heaven
with angels, with malachim, orif it was more of the lack of
(11:02):
conversation during or after,but it was almost like ever
since then, like mygrandparents' house became like
a sad place to be.
It's obviously since thenshifted a lot.
I'll bring you back to when Iwas younger.
It was very sad, it was veryempty, there wasn't conversation
around it, it was like let'stry to be joyous, but there was
a lot of pain and sadness ineveryone's eyes.
(11:23):
There wasn't reallyconversation around what does it
mean when somebody dies?
What does it mean when theyoungest in a family dies?
What is death?
How do we grieve?
Do we talk about the person whodied?
And so it's interesting becauseI've been connected to Sarah
Rivka Cohn from Lynx a lot andshe talks about like there's a
book actually they wrote and Iadded a segment at the end like
(11:43):
a guide for parents on talkingabout like loss and death for
children.
And I love how she talks aboutlike don't use code words, right
, like don't use fluffy words,like use the word like dying or
nifter or no longer here,because or else it's very
confusing.
And so I think that like one ofthe things that that happened
is that there was like anavoidance of dealing with
(12:04):
emotions and it was kind of likelet's just sugarcoat and move
on.
But we can't just sugarcoat andmove on.
This is a broken heart.
This is pain that impactedeveryone in the family for many
different reasons, and I was akid back then, right, so for me
I had.
I had to process much later onlike I thought maybe if I daubed
more, if I prayed more, I couldhave helped him heal.
(12:25):
I think there was like confusionand it's interesting because
I'll just share.
Like as a therapist, I didn'tremember the impact of this so
much.
I think I more was like a verysensitive kid.
I always wanted to caretake forpeople.
At that point I think I sharedthis like I was just.
I was always a very happy kid,but I kind of took on that role
even more of just being like Ihave dimples everyone would call
me dimples or smiley orsunshine.
(12:46):
So I kind of took on the roleto try to make everyone happy.
But when you're trying to makeeveryone happy, when there's
grief like you're not really,it's not always going to work
right.
It's not just like making themhappy and singing a song.
There's like a deep pain.
So I think I shared with youlike it was only once I had my
(13:07):
child.
We know this about grief thatanniversaries or milestones in
our life often can kick up griefand can kick up pain.
And I see this in my practicewith people who are survivors of
trauma or a lack of emotionalconnection or don't know how to
deal with conflict.
Anything that can trigger afeeling that you did or didn't
have can wake something up, andusually it's an invitation for
healing, right, but it can feeluncomfortable.
So it only took once I had myown child, who was around the
same age that I was when I lostmy uncle that a lot of my grief
(13:32):
right, it's kind of calleddelayed grief A lot of my grief
almost started kicking up and itwas so foreign to me.
So I knew all of this because Iwas treating therapists for
quite treating clients andtherapists and training people.
For quite some time I'd done alot of my own healing work in
terms of some of my own anxiety.
I used to have really bad bellyaches.
I used to carry a lot of myanxiety in my belly and have
somatic symptoms and it wasfascinating to me and also like
(13:55):
it threw me a little like hey,how come I'm suddenly feeling
like uncomfortable?
Why am I suddenly teary eyed?
What's going on for me?
And then, as I obviouslystarted putting the pieces
together, I started processinglike the loss of my uncle and
the lack of conversation.
I was always outspoken, I wasalways researching, I was always
(14:17):
speaking about things andeveryone was like shh, just be a
lady, just be quiet, just belike you know and I'm like no,
we have to talk about ourfeelings and our anger and our
happiness and our sadness.
So I will tell you.
I just have to say somethingpositive though I do want to say
my grandparents have done a lotof healing work.
They are a lot more vocal abouttheir experiences, my aunts and
uncles.
There's a lot of like health andhealing in the family.
(14:38):
My immediate family, I will say, is pretty emotionally like
awake, like we've all become,like I think my parents did
something right in this arenawhere, over the years, like as
we've all evolved and as I cameinto the therapy field and I
kind of share everything that Iknow about trauma and anxiety
there's a lot of conversationsaround healing and about like
having homes of, liketransparency and health.
(15:00):
And I think, like, just like wehave legacy burdens, like an
internal family systems we talkabout, like we all carry like
burdens, just like people comefrom the Holocaust carry certain
burdens and we have griefsometimes there's something
called carried grief, like we'recarrying the grief of previous
generations.
So I definitely feel like I'vehad that and my family has had
that.
And, in the same note, there'salso like there's carry, there's
(15:22):
legacy, like there's gifts,right.
There's also like there's carry, there's legacy, like there's
gifts, right.
There's also like legacy giftsthat we're given, like that
we're bringing forward thingsthat are beautiful, there's
strength, there's wisdom,there's humility.
So I do want to share that.
But, yeah, I think, as I got alittle older and I'm naming this
because a lot of peoplesometimes say why, when life is
fine, or why when I'm suddenlythis, why all of a sudden, out
(15:48):
of the blue, this is coming upfor me and I'm like I don't know
if it's out of the blue I thinkyou want to integrate, I think
you want to live, I think youwant to see your, your child,
not through the eyes of what youwent through, but in the
experience of real life and alot of times when something
hasn't been processedemotionally or verbally, um,
things come up right, likesometimes somebody will come in
and talk to me and they're veryactivated and it's usually like
there's something from the pastcould even be their parents pain
(16:08):
or their parents secrecy thathasn't been shared.
So I think, just like I learned, I started learning a lot more
about grief.
Grief is not usually just grief.
I think we spoke about this.
Sometimes it's the loss of.
If a parent doesn't know how tonavigate their grief, if a
family doesn't talk about grief,then there's a losing a certain
sense of connection, or there'slike losing a sense of
(16:29):
relatability to other people inthe community or um they're
shifting your whole identity ofwho you are as a person.
So there's a lot of like umother layers of grief at play,
and I will tell you that Iremember wanting one of running
in one running one of the groupsat Mirim, we had a conversation
around families that were moreopen around grief and loss or
(16:50):
about potential of death andother ones that weren't, and
everyone who shared that therewas much more open and honest
conversations about allpossibilities had significant
less symptoms when the loss anddeath um happened than those
where there was a lot moretiptoeing and secrecy around it.
(17:10):
And I just I guess my onemessage over here on this is
like it's my message across foranyone in any kind of dynamic.
If it's like parents who arenavigating difficult marriage,
if there is a struggle thatyou're having, one of the
biggest pieces is one to likedevelop transparency or start
making sense of your ownemotional narrative for yourself
(17:31):
, because even if you don't sayanything to your children.
If you're clearer, then there'sa sense of clarity.
Dr Becky Kennedy she wrote thebook Good Insight, where she
talks about, as a parent,raising our children could be
very difficult, especially if wehave children who are deeply
our children.
Could be very difficult,especially if we have children
who are deeply feeling, childrenwho are very sensitive.
But she says, like, imagine,she's like, but sometimes we
think that we have to tell asecret or cover up and on the
(17:53):
one hand, yes, it feels like itcould be good to kind of not to
protect them, but on the otherhand, are we really protecting
them?
And she says this story likeimagine you come into work one
day and your boss seems allstressed out and he's like,
talking on the phone, reallyanxious.
It sounds like he can't coverhis bill for something,
something went down, a badbusiness deal.
And you come in and suddenlyyou realize he's stressed and
suddenly he wipes the look offof his face and with a fake
(18:15):
smile he's like hi, it's so goodto see you.
And you say is everything fine?
And he says I'm a littlestressed.
Um, we're going throughsomething a little tricky, but
I'm in it together with you andwe're gonna all figure this out
as a team and I'm gonna have tomake some adjustments.
(18:36):
But let me tell you a littlebit about it, or this is what I
could tell you, and if there'sany other things, I'll keep you
updated.
So she says how, like so manytimes, we think because we don't
know how to deal with our owncomplicated emotions or our own
fears or discomfort, wesugarcoat or we pretend and this
is not a me telling a story ofwhat I wish happened, because I
love who I am today, I love thehumility and the nuance that I'm
(18:59):
learning, and I still have somuch to learn as a person, as a
mom, as a professional, and I'veso come to appreciate, like how
learning how to hold ouremotions or acknowledging the
emotional layers of reality asuncomfortable as they are is
sometimes the biggest gift wecould give ourselves and our
children and those around us andthis applies, by the way, in
(19:21):
adult relationships too.
You know, when somebody is veryavoidant or secretive and it's
like be transparent with me,right, like there is just a
level of safety that comes whenlife is hard.
It's very painful, but likepretending or not being able to
share is actually almost evenharder and leaves people feeling
so alone and the one thing weknow about trauma is the most
(19:41):
painful part of trauma it couldbe a loss, it could be a death,
it could be a pain is goingthrough the experience alone.
It's not always the negativeexperience.
It's going through a painfulexperience and feeling
disconnected from other people.
If I can hold someone's hand,if I could be right, even if we
look at like the stories ofpeople right now, like the
hostages or any kind of researchthat you look at, people go
(20:02):
through pain.
When there's another humanbeing in the connection, there's
incredible level of relief forthe brain and the body, for the
brain and the body.
I feel like I'm on a soapbox,yeah, no, no.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I could probably ask you a question on every sentence
that you said, but I won't.
But I am curious to hear whenyou say when you did go through
your processing after your childreached that age, who did you
do it with and who, so to speak,I guess, held your hand?
And also, as a therapist, youknew all the answers.
But that doesn't mean you couldreally do it yourself, like
(20:39):
sometimes a therapist couldstill Totally no, I couldn't, I
totally couldn't.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Was there another question and then I'll answer no
, I think those two.
I was seeing a therapist at thetime who I really liked Um, and
she was very skilled at whatshe did.
Um, but I started having theselike weird symptoms or weird
like snippets of memories and um, and of course, I knew
everything and I was pretty likeevolved and advanced Um.
(21:04):
But here's another tidbit.
I guess for anyone listening,it's like trust your gut and
find really, really skilledpeople and study people to hold
your hand in any process.
I would say this for anythingin terms of friendships, in
terms of workplace, in terms ofworkplaces, in terms of the
community, you're surrounded by.
Finding people who really likehave your back and really get
you and understand you is soimportant and especially for
(21:25):
therapists, like it's having agood therapist that really is
like um, getting expertconsultation and has training to
really support you in whateveryou're going through.
So I was seeing a therapist andI started sharing some things
that were coming up and I justkept feeling like she's not
really getting a deeper layer ofwhat I'm saying.
And she was a good therapistand actually I was in a pretty
(21:47):
advanced training myself at thetime and I went over to one of
the consultants there and I saidI'll share with her some of
what I'm going through.
And she's like, wow, it lookslike you have a deeper layer of
healing to do.
I'm like, wow, I'm so totallywhole.
And she's like and so I said,oh, but this is so uncomfortable
, like it's in the past.
And you know, she saidsomething so profound to me this
, this trainer, this consultantof mine, who I really respect
(22:09):
I'm not going to share her namebecause I don't know if I have
the liberty to but she said youknow what happens?
As we're in this line of work,we engage in like different
layers of like healing, of likeintegrating more of ourselves,
of our past, our presence, ourfuture, right, so she's like
it's not that, it's not thatlike we never let's say we go
through a phase in our life likea lot of therapists say oh, I
went through a difficult timeand then I got better and now
(22:31):
I'm healing.
That's not the way that itworks.
It really isn't.
Look at any rabbi, look at anymentor.
Life is an ongoing experience oftriumph and of tribulations, of
feeling lost and feeling found,of feeling connected, of
feeling disconnected, of feelingscared and of feeling safe.
And I think it's a matter moreof like how do we acknowledge
those as ongoing experiences,make better choice points in
terms of our relationships, interms of who we surround
(22:52):
ourselves with, so we have morehealth and more healing, more
support, so we have better life.
But it's not that those go away.
And so she said she's like look, it's an ongoing process of
like if you're doing this depthwork with clients, which I was
and I do people know me I dovery depth work with clients.
Clients come to me when they'relooking for, like, a deeper
layer of healing or relief, anEMDR or somatic work, because I
(23:15):
feel like that's where the realrelief actually takes place in
terms of symptom reduction.
But she said, if you'recommitted to this, then you're
always going to have like timesin your life where, when you're
ready to do a deeper layer ofwork, to really integrate more
of who you are, your life, or asyou become more present for
your own children's needs, theremight be some things that come
up.
So she's like I had a timewhere, like I had to navigate
(23:37):
certain like.
I don't know what she wentthrough, if it was like anxiety
or for her it might have beenlike a period of depression, and
she's like.
And then like, many years later, she's like things were more
steady and there was somethingthat came up with my husband's
workplace and she's like it didput me into like a tricky spot
and she's like, but then itwasn't as frightening or
uncomfortable because I alreadyknew, I got to know my nervous
system, I got to understandthese symptoms, I understood it
(23:58):
but I still needed somebody tohold my hand and she's like and
now again she was like way older.
She was like in her sixties,almost reaching seventies.
She's like I'm going throughsomething else right now with
like health issues.
You know, she was like justsharing a very human experience
of how life is, like a washingmachine and there's phases where
it feels frightening oruncomfortable, but we almost
it's not like, it's not like ourlives get better, but we get
(24:20):
better.
So I think that really gave mecomfort.
So I actually consulted with herfor a few sessions and then I
found a new therapist who justoff the bat, like the first few
sessions, is in.
I think I just felt this likedeeper capacity, more of a
clinical nuance, to help meprocess what I was processing.
So you asked me oh, so Idefinitely got like an expert in
(24:42):
my corner right.
I knew like I know and I knewand I think we all do Like when
you have someone who's just like, oh, this is what's going on
and here's how I'm going to helpyou and they don't get
overwhelmed and they're justmatter of fact is a game changer
.
Because if you're sitting witha therapist who's overwhelmed I
know I'm laughing, I'm notlaughing but I'm smiling but
it's the most scary anduncomfortable and unsafe feeling
(25:03):
to be with a therapist or toshare something with someone who
looks scared or overwhelmed,and usually it's because they're
not the right fit.
And I just knew and I guess thegood thing that I want to share
with anyone is because I am atherapist I did know, wait, I
know when something's a good fitand I know when something's not
a good fit.
I will say that in finding theright person, I did try a few
(25:23):
people and there was one nightthat I literally sat down on the
floor with like my sisters andI was just, I just like burst
into tears.
I'm like guys, I can't findsomebody.
I'm like I know what's goodwork.
I'm like, my colleagues aregreat, I'm great, like.
And then I did end up findingsomebody who was amazing.
But they were like hey, we'regoing to find someone amazing
for you, because I didn't justneed therapy.
I think when we're, let's say,if you're doing grief Right, so
(25:54):
I just felt like I knew thatthere was a nuanced kind of good
somatic processing, goodprocessing about the death and
the pain and the fears that Ihad that were coming up, that I
knew could be processed becauseI did it as a therapist and I
had seen a good work being done.
So that's one, I think findingsomeone who really gets you and
is experienced in the kind of-.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
That also means someone that really knows how to
ask the right questions to getyou to understand what's going
on right.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Love what you're saying.
Yeah, basically, I love whatyou're saying.
You're basically sayingexpertise is really someone who
it's not that they're doing thetherapy for you, it's they know
how to ask, like those specific,targeted questions and insights
to bring you exactly to thepain and the suffering that you
are going through, so actuallyyou could start processing it
instead of skipping around it.
You're saying like saying tobring you exactly to where you
(26:46):
need to go.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Right, because you yourself don't necessarily know
where you are and where you needto go.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Oh yeah, to answer that question 100 percent.
No, I don't care how smart youare as a therapist.
I don't care how smart you areas a therapist, but you see this
with rabbis, you see this withlike.
The one thing I will say, beingin the field for like close to
15 years, the one thing that Ilove about like people I've
interacted with, like people inlike big leadership roles,
(27:13):
rabbinic roles, therapist rolesis the people who I admire are
very humble, because it doesn'tmatter how wise you are, it
doesn't matter how manycontributions you've made to
society and to your family andto the world.
We're always in a position ofgiving and we're always in a
position of taking.
And so I do think that there'ssomething like you're asking me.
No, I don't.
Just like I know they say likethe shoemaker is not going to
give his kids the perfect shoes,the doctor can't treat his own
(27:33):
child.
Yeah, you could have.
For the generic stuff, I do haveto say like having good
colleagues and having access toa lot of wisdom, I do think just
made me feel much more likehopeful and trusting that I
would move through whateversymptoms I had, which I did,
which is kind of why I'm sharingthis on here Because one of the
biggest things when I seeclients is like I don't get
frightened by their symptomsbecause they make trauma or
(27:54):
neglect or loss.
It's healable.
The pain and the way that wechange our beliefs about
ourselves or others in the worldtakes time to process.
But like the scarring of theheart, like people don't have to
live with symptoms of trauma orsymptoms of grief, they don't
have to be living in constanttrauma or symptoms of grief,
they don't have to be living inconstant suffering.
You're going to live in painbut the intensity of some
(28:17):
emotions if you actually helpthe mind and body process, it
really can and does and doeslessen if you're getting the
right kind of intervention.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Right, right.
This doesn't mean you're notgoing to have, like I always say
with healing I'm always likewe're going to engage in healing
we always have to leave a slicefor grief, because grief is an
ongoing process and you might gothrough an experience where
things feel more or less okayand then suddenly you have a
neighbor that said something andit kicks off like a grief
emotion, right, or so, I think,just like a acknowledging that
and knowing how to work withwhen it comes up.
(28:45):
But I do see how, like, theright kind of skills and the
right kind of therapeuticinterventions really do help.
But yeah, mary, I'm, it doesn'tmatter how skilled you are like
, uh, you can't do your own, youcan't do your own therapy.
Which is why, like, why I say,like I really respect people who
are humble, because I'm sayinglike in I remember writing an
(29:08):
article a long time ago.
They asked me like to write anarticle on parenting and I was,
like I'll write something from atherapist standpoint, I'll
write something as a parentstandpoint.
But really, at the end of theday, like, skills and all this
research doesn't really matterbecause at the end of the day,
we're all humans doing a humanexperience.
So I think like at the end ofthe day, we're all kind of like
trying to find wholeness inourselves.
(29:29):
But yeah, being skilled maybejust gave me more trust and
confidence and knowledge.
So I felt like skilled.
But yeah, you can't heal yourown self.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
So in the front community, is there like the
therapist?
Therapist Like I alwayswondered.
You know Benet Brown, right,she talks about her therapist.
I'm like, who's brave enough tobe your therapist?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
I think some therapists are.
So for me, I know thatdefinitely I've been like a
picky one.
Um, I do think there'ssomething that happens to be I
treat some therapists, um, rightnow, my practice I have like a
small practice, meaning not asmall practice at a group
practice, but on my personalcaseload I have just like a
number um of clients.
I do think that there are sometherapists that are more skilled
(30:12):
at treating therapists, becauseessentially, what you?
There's two things.
One is that I don't know ifit's that you need to be an
expert.
I do think you need to be veryclinically nuanced and have a
lot of skills, but I think it'smore than that.
If I can be a little like candid, I think it's that you're
someone who has done a lot ofdepth work and you're
continuously doingself-reflection, which I think
(30:37):
all therapists are, but some area lot more like self-reflective
I think about, like Judy Hermanshe talks about, like doing
trauma work or doing deep griefwork, like there's a level of
pain, like you're letting yourclient's stories be carved into
your heart, and I feel likethat's the kind of therapist
that I like to be and I want toalways be, and every therapist
is different, like some ordifferent phases in our life, we
can't.
There was a period of time thatI took a break from seeing
one-on-one clients when I wasstruggling a lot of staff at our
(31:00):
office.
I was focused on my trauma,training and parenting.
I didn't have that same levelof bandwidth and to me I was
like I'd rather take like a sixmonth break or a year break from
the one on work, then do notdepth work for my clients.
And then I resumed when I wasable to like manage my energy
better and be like okay how muchenergy.
Because to me it's like if I'mreally sitting with clients,
(31:22):
like I like the depth work isthere, oh, but for therapists I
think there are some therapiststhat work with therapists and
then you also want to noticelike who's in the room, because
you're not here to treat thetherapist, you're here to treat
the self and so the therapistself is just a part.
If you think about IFS partswork, we have different parts.
It's basically just a part thatcould be in the room.
(31:43):
So you don't want like twocolleagues talking to each other
.
It's basically like thetherapist part could be
professional.
It's almost like when I treat adoctor or a lawyer or a person
who's in like corporateleadership.
It's like I'm going to noticeyou have that part of you and
that part I'm going to ask it tolike let's acknowledge it and
step aside so I can actuallywork with the symptoms or the
struggles.
So you have to be a littlebossy, not in a bad way.
But Pat Ogden always says thefounder of sensory motor therapy
(32:05):
she says like you only contactwhat you want to work with.
So if a client comes in tellingyou five different stories but
their core theme is lonelinessor their core theme.
Core theme is anger.
Don't go along with everythingelse.
You say I'm, wow, I'm hearingthere's so much going on and and
could we notice the anger thatcomes up when you talk about you
, know your father, so so it'salso like knowing how to be a
(32:26):
little like strategic, and thisis where I'm going, zooming in,
and this is where I'm zoomingout.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, Wow, it's amazing.
Okay, so we know that you havethat humbleness that's needed
with therapists.
So anyone listening, if youwant a humble therapist, should
we talk about your second lossor something you don't want to,
someplace you don't want to goto?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
My second loss, oh, my, the second uncle that passed
away.
Yes, okay, so actually, no,that's okay.
I'm very sensitive right nowtalking about it, but that's
because loss is very painful.
Um, the second loss wasincredibly different, actually.
This is why I should talk aboutit.
So then I had an uncle who,when he was 40 years old uh,
(33:09):
this is like painful to talkabout I have a an uncle that
when he was 40 years old, he had, um, like a sudden heart attack
.
He has a wife and 11 childrenthat he left behind um, is this
from your father's side?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
no same same, okay, okay um one second.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I'm just like taking a breath for a second no problem
but I want to tell yousomething like as I zoom out.
First of all, my mother'sfamily is incredible in terms of
coming together in face ofcrises and pain and connection,
and we've always had like umrabbi, that we were very close
to that point.
My grandparents lived in Israel.
We're very close to the TalnaRabbah um, so I think, like
(33:54):
having like Das Torah and theright support is really
important he was really therefor, like my cousins and my
aunts and you know just likebeing able to process the loss.
Actually it was right beforePurim, so we still celebrated
Purim and then we sat Shabbat.
But I have to say something.
This is what I think isimportant.
I think I shared with you thesecond loss did not hit as hard
(34:15):
and did not cause me at likenearly the impact that the first
one did, and I think I wassharing this with you, not
because I think people should gothrough loss, but because I
think that, like I was older, somentally I was able to
understand what was going on.
I asked a lot more questions.
I was much more part of, likethe grieving process and the
(34:37):
pain and the shock I was able tomove through, like the anger
and the loss and just so many ofthe emotions and the sadness
that I didn't get to experiencewhen I was a kid and even just
seeing like being almost like onthe same footing, like I was
already like older.
I was in my 20s, I was at adifferent phase of life so like
(34:57):
I could appreciate the emotionswere harder for me, but they
were easier in the long run, andso I guess the reason I was
saying all of this is because,although that was very, both of
them were very painful.
The one that was much moreconfusing as a child, and I
guess this is the piece on liketaking away confusion and, by
the way, so much of what traumawork is just so you know,
whenever I help someone process,let's say, they had a parent
(35:20):
that was very emotionally absentand there was grief.
Sometimes it's the grief andsometimes it's you know what,
like I lost a brother but mymother was so emotionally gone
and I just needed my mother tolook at me when I was crying
about my brother.
You know, like sometimes that'sthe piece that's so painful.
Or when somebody's processingsexual trauma or somebody and
they're like, wait, I don't know, but I think he touched me or
maybe he just looked at me inthe sexual kind of way.
(35:40):
So the confusion is the thingthat really causes people
symptoms, because we want tohelp people understand their
emotions, make sense of theirstories, process it and then
they could be okay.
Trauma or grief or loss is notwhat destroys us.
It's the confusion and it'scalled, in scientific terms,
dysfunctionally storedinformation.
It's like having a piece ofmeat that you.
It's like giving a baby a pieceof meat and they don't have
(36:02):
teeth so they can't chew it toswallow, so they constantly are
having indigestion.
If you have a loss in yourfamily, if you have grief, if
there's secrets, if there'sprivacy, if there's lack of
emotional space, so you can't dowith your family, so hire a
therapist, have an auntie, havesomeone, someone in the school,
you know, like find a friend,someone to talk to, to process
these emotions, cause if wedon't process it it makes us
(36:23):
sick.
So back to this, like I think,the not confusion, the clarity.
Of course there's pain, but itwas like an ache.
It wasn't like an ache thatlike cause what we.
It wasn't an ache that wentaway and then came back very
strongly.
So unprocessed grief often islike we see this with trauma
right, or pain is like ifsomething hasn't been processed,
(36:43):
like as a child likely, I kindof felt it.
I probably tucked it away insome kind of way which was
brilliant, and then as an adultit came back for it to be
processed.
Which is why so many timespeople land up in my office or
my group practice office ortherapists that I train in my
trauma training, like fellowclients who you know, suddenly
has like teenagers in theirtwenties or thirties or forties.
I've worked with someone whowas like in their seventies, who
(37:04):
was like I have so much anger.
Yeah, there was one person Ihad a really profound
conversation with.
He said to me I'm old and Iactually am sick, but I have a
couple more years on this planetand I don't want to die an
angry man.
It's like I have so much angerin my body and I want to at
least have a couple of years onthis earth that I'm not feeling
angry.
I want to have a betterrelationship with my children.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
That is so sad.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
It was sad and it was so beautiful that there was
someone who could value me, youthink about, like people who
struggle, who are like inrecovery for addiction, and they
always say, like, if you caneven have one sober day and you
can appreciate being presentlike he had this guy, then you
can appreciate the value of thatwhich we actually value as Jews
this man.
It was very sad, but whatreally touched me is how
(37:47):
incredible that a man who was soemotionally not tuned into his
emotions is actually realizingthe one most important thing is
his relationship with hischildren and that he he wants to
actually be, not live a lifethat's constantly stuck in anger
.
He actually had maybe it washis energy.
It wasn't an angry energy, itwas like, hey, you know, you're
like half my age or whatever hesaid.
He said like a funny joke andhe's like but could you help me?
(38:09):
I'm like, listen, you're waywiser than me, let's just get
that out of the way, but I mightbe able to help you work
through your anger.
So it was very sweet.
But to me what touched me islike sometimes different
generations or different familymembers are receptive to
openness and some aren't, and Iguess for me, just as a person
like I I value in my own parentsor like elders in my family are
(38:31):
receptive and humble to talkingabout emotions when maybe they
weren't in a previous life.
Like when I have conversationswith my parents, sometimes it's
like it's fascinating how likeit's just different
conversations that we can havewhen we develop emotional
awareness.
And so I guess I appreciated,as someone who's seen people in
their 70s and 80s in my familysome who are more open and some
(38:54):
are less I guess I valued theopenness or the wanting to be
open to that.
But yeah, I think like thedifferences of how the losses
impacted me was very profound tonotice.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
So I'll tell you what I'm thinking now, and I'm not
even sure what you said.
I don't know.
I guess something that you saidabout, I don't know, noticing
it at different times, thetrauma, I'm not even sure, but
it's coming up a conversationthat I had recently.
My sister passed away and itwas never.
Birthdays were never, are never, a hard thing for me.
(39:30):
It doesn't.
It doesn't like I know manypeople have a hard time with it.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
But I was talking to someone and I said, and I said,
oh my gosh, hello, by the way.
Do you know that yesterday wasmy sister Esty's birthday?
And I didn't even realize until, like I think it could be, the
day was over and he could be, itwas like 12 or one.
When I saw my other sisters,Like that's right, I said, but
you know what mattered to me,she would have been 50.
And that hit me like 50, likelike that's like an age, that's
(39:54):
like a big birthday.
And somehow, like that hit meand I'm thinking about that as
you're talking, I'm not evensure why.
And then I look at the screenthat we're recording on you know
, Esther and Miriam, right,Esther and Miriam, like that's
what we were, you know, and Idon't know.
I guess I just have to like putit out there.
There's something that you saidabout I don't know something.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Wow, how old were you when your sister passed?
I'm saying, how many years agowas that?
Is that okay to ask?
Speaker 2 (40:20):
It's a question that I hate, because for those that
didn't go through a loss, itseems like, oh, it's so long ago
.
You're used to life without heralready.
It happened so long ago, butshe's still so close to me in so
many ways and I think about herand talk about her all the time
.
Let me see, it's 12 years.
No, my daughter's 14, and she'snamed after her and I was very
(40:42):
early pregnant.
I guess that means it's about12 years.
But she's like getting into nailpolish.
Now, my daughter, I'm not intonails, as you can see, but she's
like very into it and she'sbusy for vacation.
I was busy like for vacation.
I let her like buy the nailsI'm putting she's busy, yeah,
being all over the place and Iwas like Esty, esty, esty was
(41:02):
busy with the nails.
Oh, she is.
Oh, like it just comes up.
Yeah, like you said, like itcould be fine, and then
something will trigger that like, yes, esty and her nails.
Now Esther Malky, my daughterwould appreciate those nails.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
You know whatever, wow, so yeah yep, I think it
changes us, like, um I was justtalking to a client about this
about like, like health andsickness and like life and death
, and I think that we're allimpacted by it, some of us more
than others.
(41:29):
Some of us have seen like adarker, more painful side of
life, um, either in loss, eitherin pain, in like neglect and
abuse and trauma and confusionand feeling ostracized socially,
limited academically, Like Ijust want to name that there's
so many different ways thatpeople go through loss and grief
(41:50):
, right, like infertility, oldersingles, like I think there's
just so many aspects, specialneeds, children.
Like there are so many externaland internal, like implicit
aspects to grief, and I thinkthat like being able to speak
about like it's just a differentworld when you experience the
reality of loss right Becausewe're not programmed to lose.
(42:14):
We're programmed to lose elderlypeople loss, right, because
we're not programmed to lose.
We're programmed to loseelderly people, right.
It's like a full life cycle andeven then it's really difficult
.
But I think it's very trickywhen it's like as a sister I
mean, I'm actually one of fiveand I have I'm one of four girls
and a brother Like as you say,that that makes me so sad.
Like my sisters mean so much tome that 12, 14 years ago, like
(42:36):
what do you mean?
She's your sister.
Like that's huge.
Sisters could be like bestfriends, you know.
Yeah, is it difficult to beasked like having these
conversations.
Is it okay for me to ask onhere, like, is it painful to
hear about people's loss or doesit?
What's it like for you to hearother people's stories?
Speaker 2 (42:55):
to hear about people's loss, or does it?
What's it like for you to hearother people's stories?
No, I don't find it difficultbecause number one I learn a lot
from people.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
I love learning.
I love meeting people, I lovegetting to know people.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
I really, really do.
I just finished, I mean, oh,whatever, still editing stages,
but the finished writing with.
I did with you know, mr Holman,a book for parents that lost
children.
And people ask me like how doyou do that?
Like I hear so many sad stories.
You know, there's always like Isee people, or I speak to
(43:30):
people, I should say, at themost vulnerable, vulnerable,
painful points, like I seegreatness.
I mean, you wouldn't know thatyour neighbor next door made a
decision to do X, y and Zbecause of her grief.
You see a lady that looks likeshe's going to the grocery store
but really she told me thatwhen she went to the grocery
store, this is what happened andthis is what she thought and
this is what she decided.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
I'm like people are like so amazing and then I tell
Hashem that really Moshiach,because we're so great and I
know that he knows that, becausehe knows more than what I know.
We need mashiach on many levelsbut, yeah so you're almost like
touched by people's inspiration, right like, basically, in face
of pain.
You're seeing like you'reseeing people's like soul shine
(44:10):
through.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Right, it's well, but I wouldn't.
It's not inspiration.
It's like real internal workthat they, that they work on.
Yeah, because they're't.
It's not inspiration.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
It's like real internal work that they, that
they work on yeah, becausethey're right, right, it's not.
I'm not saying organicinspiration, it's basically when
we're broken.
It's like sometimes we'rebroken open and then you're
saying, like you're seeing thework or the effort, people are
Right.
What about pain?
Like?
What about not everybody'salways inspired, not everyone's
always like doing somethingbeautiful?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
No, I was just going to say that I'm not.
I'm not necessarily seeing thepeople that started huge
organizations and who knows what.
I'm seeing people like sharingwith me, like their own, like
their own personal, their ownpersonal growth, like trying to
think.
I don't know why I usually havea million examples.
Why can nothing come to mind,like a woman that she, she lost
(44:59):
a married daughter and whateverhappened?
I don't, I don't even knowexactly that.
She didn't tell me exactly whathappened, but they accused her
of whatever it was that theyaccused her and they didn't let
her see her grandchildrenanymore, her daughter's children
.
They used to live on the sameblock, they were coming and
going all the time and nowsuddenly she couldn't see them.
Do you know, like, whatstrength it took for her to say
(45:20):
I'm not going to fight it out,like it's not worth it and I'm
just going to accept and insteadshe davened, she cried Like she
was in tremendous pain, butlike she didn't do an ounce of
my focus.
And I listened to her and I'mlike, oh my gosh, like they
totally wrongly accused her.
She knew who did the thing thatthey accused her of, but it was
their side.
She didn't want to talk lessthan her.
She, you know, understood thatthey're also in pain.
(45:42):
They also went through a losslike and she didn't?
I'm like hello and that's notsomething you're just going
around telling the whole worldyeah, you know so like things
like that that I just leave melike so amazed really, and like
I don't another story.
Someone told me how she came toterms with accepting that her
like the doctor really there wasmalpractice and her daughter
died, but then how she came toterms with it and accepted it as
(46:04):
Hashem's will, because whateverhappened, there's just so much
like that and I don't know why.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
Wow, yeah, no, I actually appreciate you
clarifying.
It's like these layers ofacceptance, right?
It's like these layers ofacceptance, right.
It's like cause.
There's layers of like griefand denial and then like leaning
into acceptance, and that'sreally what I'm hearing in all
of these Cause.
So many big emotions come up.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Um, and the day-to-day life and the
day-to-day thoughts and moments,and yeah, so so tell me, is
there anything that we didn'ttalk about that we should talk
about before we end, I think?
Speaker 3 (46:39):
what I would like.
I think what I would want tolike leave the listeners with if
anyone is listening is a fewmessages.
If I could like just recap Oneis that, like grief is a
universal experience.
So if you lost someone that youloved, that's one kind of grief
.
If, if that's the most painfulgrief, then like that's your
(47:02):
work to work on or to process,and if you are grieving like the
loss of of a relationship or afeeling or a hope or a dream in
your family, like that's alsojust as valid.
Actually wrote a few blogs ongrief, um, so if anyone wants to
like Google my name, estherGoldstein Grief, you'll see
there's some blogs there withlike some resources, some tips,
(47:22):
some self-care, like exercises.
But it's actually not aboutskipping over.
It's about helping you processthrough the grief, because
there's like grief that getscomplicated, that gets stuck,
and then there's grief likesuccessful grief.
Successful grief is that youmove through the emotions and
there's a, there's an energy ofmovement, and then, like
complicated grief or stuck griefis when you get stuck in, as
(47:44):
people are sometimes afraid,like I don't want to be angry
and I'm like there's anger thatyou get trapped in and there's
anger that you move through, wealways want to go with the one
that you're moving through.
Right, so there's processingthrough it, but you don't want
to skip over it, right so it'slike so that's one is.
Like brief is universalexperience.
I think the other thing is likeif you can try to make sense of
your story for you or for yourloved one or your children, and
(48:04):
just find the people or place orperson to just start mapping
the pieces together so that youlessen the confusion If maybe
there's an ongoing loss or painor something of the past, like
often the brain and the bodyreally just need to digest the
information.
Obviously, for whatever age,appropriate is appropriate.
But like be mindful of avoidingfor yourself or for others.
(48:26):
Or like sometimes I'll see aparent or someone in a
relationship and they avoidcertain topics and then their
partner or husband wife is likethey should never want to talk
about this and really it'sbecause they're terrified,
they're avoiding something else.
So there's a lot of lossessometimes when we avoid, like
we're losing something else,losing a relationship with our
children if they want somethingdeeper.
So like lesson avoidance.
(48:47):
And I think the last thing thatI would say is I think like
find your people think, findyour people, friends like Miriam
you're talking about.
Like I think Mayrim is anincredible organization.
I think grief is the kind ofthing if you look at the
research we really heal incommunities, so we don't heal
(49:08):
one-on-one.
And of course I'm going to say,like if you need a therapist,
go find one, but if that's notwhat you're needing or if you
already have one, find yourpeople who understand pain or
could tolerate pain and alsocould tolerate joy.
Like I find people in the griefcommunity or the trauma
community have a lot of capacityfor pain but also have the
biggest capacity for laughter.
I think like laughter and beingsilly.
Just earlier today I was talkingto my mom about something she
(49:29):
said and my nickname is Esteeeven though people call me
Esther, your sister's name isEstee, so Esty like if you ever
want to become a comedian cause,I'm so silly and goofy like
everyone knows this in my life.
Um, and I think, like whenwe've dealt with grief or pain
or loss, I think one of the onlyways to really cope is to also
find the funny and the weird andthe humorous in life.
So I think, like, find yourpeople and really find people in
(49:50):
places and things that help youlike giggle deep, belly
laughter, because I think that'spart of like what Hashem wants
and what I think real living isabout.
It's like being able to feelall the feelings.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
And I just think we have to like say this, that when
a person goes through loss,their friendships might change
and they shouldn't let go of thefriends that were always so
close, because they can't getthe loss, because they might
need to like come back to them.
It's something to still hold onto, but try to find those
(50:21):
friends that you really couldtalk to or laugh with or
whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (50:23):
Yes, yeah, I'm not a big believer in letting go of
friendships.
I think, like being aware ofdifferent friends can have
different capacities.
I do think that sometimesrealizing friends have certain
emotional capacities more thanothers, but like finding your
way, like, let's say, just like,if you have a child who has
dyslexia, there are otherfriends that don't, might not
understand, and so instead ofjust thinking we're not going to
be friends with these peopleanymore, it's like, well, there
(50:45):
is a disconnect or they don'tfully understand it.
And if I do find someone whohas some kind of like difference
in the way that they learn orread, I could actually have a
level of relatability.
But really it starts withunderstanding yourself.
And yeah, I do think thatsometimes relationships will
shift and tweak, because that'show life is.
(51:06):
And yeah, finding, I think,just like finding our people and
having connection is what helpsus move through life with more
okayness, Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
So I hope everyone finds that connection and finds
that okayness and thank you somuch for coming on.
Speaker 3 (51:18):
I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah, I think this is one ofthe forms, mary, I'm like these
podcasts, these conversations Ithink is really a platform for
people to tune in, listen tostories, take what resonates,
drop what doesn't, and I reallywant to thank you for being on
here, for inviting me on.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Thank you.
Thank you so so much.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
You on Thank you.
Thank you so so much.
You've just listened to anepisode of the Relief from Grief
podcast with Miriam Riviat,brought to you by Mayrim.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
(51:59):
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by IloyNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hi everybody, Thank you so much for joining me here
today on the Relief From Griefpodcast.
Today is very exciting becausetoday Mrs Esther Goldstein is
joining us.
Mrs Esther Goldstein, she's atherapist who does lots of group
therapy in the five towns andshe does a lot of group therapy
for Mayrim and I'm so happy tohave you on.
(01:16):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, I'm really glad to be here, mariam.
I know that when Glenn reachedout to me right the founder of
Mayrim reached out and said thathe wanted to start a podcast, I
was really touched because somany times like, yeah, I've been
at the Chabaton and I know thatthey run these weekends or
groups.
I know I ran a group one nightfor bereaved moms and we were
(01:40):
doing like a mask event for theinside and outside of how
mothers were feeling about lossand almost like the masks with
like Esther and Purim.
But what I found is that whenit comes to grief, there could
never be enough support.
There can never be enoughconversation.
Sometimes just hearing someonetalk about an experience or an
(02:01):
emotion or an insight can reallylend well.
So I'm just really glad andgrateful that Miriam is creating
another kind of roadway ofsupport for those who are
navigating grief and loss.
Thank you for having me on heretoday.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Thank you.
Yeah, you should know.
It's very interesting because,even though I only recently
started doing this podcast forMiriam, I was doing it in the
past, for I think it's been overtwo years doing this podcast
for Mayhem.
I was doing it in the past, forI think it's been over two
years and the feedback that Iget always like amazes me that
there's just that one thing thatsomeone just had to hear and
like changes their whole day,their whole week, their whole
(02:35):
perspective, their whole lifeand, like you said, I guess like
there really can never be toomuch in three.
Yeah, you as a professional,you could definitely share with
us lots of professional insights, but why don't we start off a
little bit with your ownpersonal story?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Everyone likes diving into the personal meat, huh,
okay.
So basically maybe I'll justshare a little bit about who I
am as a professional.
Then I'll talk a little bitabout like grief as a person.
So just to introduce myself, myname is Esther Goldstein.
I'm an anxiety and traumatherapist.
In the five towns we have agroup practice that specializes
(03:15):
in healing anxiety and traumaand like our primary goal is
really to help people have lesssymptoms.
So often there could be likegrief loss, abandonment, neglect
, and what I've been veryprotective over is like helping
people feel not pathologized bytheir symptoms, so like we're
not judging or giving people asmuch a diagnosis, as much as
we're looking at, okay, how dowe help people heal?
(03:36):
I did my master's and then Idid a post-grad in Israel at
Hebrew U, when I was likehelping people navigating like
addiction and struggling withself-harm or very intense
anxiety or panic, and I wantedto look at like what allows some
people to heal or to holdsobriety from drug addiction or
(03:56):
forms of numbing or coping andhow come some other people kept
relapsing or going back tounhealthy behaviors or
relationships and a lot of itlanded on trauma.
Why am I sharing all of this?
Because in my years of being atherapist so most people know is
that anyway.
Since then I've come back toAmerica, created a group
practice.
I have a trauma trainingprogram as well for therapists
(04:19):
around the world that I train.
I'm a somatic therapist, ifsand EMDR.
I actually have a book that'scoming out with the new
Harbinger.
But I guess, as I reflect on allof this, like most therapists
are wounded healers or have somekind of passion for coming into
this field, usually because weare looking for a sense of
meaning or to give back or tofind our own level of healing or
(04:40):
wholeness in ourselves, andthen when we do the work to
become more wholesome, we kindof become like a vessel of
healing for other people.
So I think that I found like,over the years, part of my
motivation or inspiration wasobviously like wanting to
navigate understanding my ownanxiety or discomfort in my body
(05:01):
.
That was anxiety I was holding,discomfort in my body, that was
anxiety I was holding, and alot of it was related to
unspoken grief in my familyhistory.
And so it's interesting, miriam, when, as we were talking, you
said could you talk about thisLike we were talking, I said I
could talk about it as aprofessional and invisible grief
, or disenfranchised grief, orgrief of, obviously, death and
loss, because grief really ispart and parcel of human
(05:24):
experience, where we are alwayslike losing things and things
are shifting, but it's veryunique when it comes to death,
right, the finality of like aliving experience.
When you said to me, share yourpersonal story, I was taken
aback because usually, like atretreats or obviously as
therapists, like you reallydon't share much.
The goal is really to holdspace for a client's experience
and we share just as much asmaybe could be helpful, but we
(05:47):
usually are on the side of notsharing.
So I'm actually curious.
I'm happy to share, but I'mcurious, like what was it that
made you ask, like, can youshare about grief in your life?
Like what were you thinking orwhat are you hoping for the
audience to hear?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
So too clinical is boring.
Yeah, people connect much moreto other people's personal
experiences.
Yeah, so you know, and askingyou to come on besides that, you
know, glenn Holman told me youknow have to ask you to come on
(06:25):
and besides that, I'm sure thatyou have so much to share.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
From a therapist perspective, there's so much to
be gained from a therapist thatwe also get to connect to her
human side and her human losses.
Yeah, okay, I do think that,first of all, thanks for sharing
that I know for myself, like Ipersonally connect most with
people who are like human firstand professional second.
Right, I think it takes like afine line of like knowing how
much to share or when to share,but I do think like the lived
(06:50):
experience of humanity is reallywhat connects us together.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So, very briefly, you just made me think of something
.
Yeah, so everything issomething just interesting.
You know I wrote we didn't eventalk about my story, but
obviously I have my whole youknow own brief story and I wrote
an article about it a few yearsago.
It was in the Mishpacha and Igot I got a lot of feedback on
it and a lot of comments, like Iremember one person especially
(07:15):
saying like wow, you reallybeard your soul over there.
And it was funny to me becauseI thought to myself to you, it
does, it does seem like that,but really I didn't like there's
so much that I didn't sharethat I don't need the whole
world to.
You know, at least at thatpoint I didn't need to make that
public.
So when you said, what did?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
you say before that it's a fine line of how much we
share right or how much we hold.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Right.
Also, some people are so usedto keeping things in that, like
sharing two percent could feellike a lot for someone else, or
it could feel like just theright amount for someone, and
it's really a matter of knowingwhat feels right for us to share
, because whenever we shareright, there's always other
people's stories, we're alwayskicking up against other
people's stories.
So to me it's like honoring myfamily, honoring everybody's
(08:03):
emotional realities of how theyprocess grief and loss.
So I think, just like finding aline to be respectful while
also giving voice and experienceis really important.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So most people always tell me that when I interviewed
him, he goes you got out of memore than anyone else ever gets
out of me.
You just didn't let up.
So if I start overstepping overhere.
You let me know didn't let up.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
So if I start overstepping over here, you let
me know.
Yeah, Thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
So I think that what happenedwas when I was younger.
I had my mom is one girl, shecomes from a family of eight,
seven brothers and when I wasvery young and when I was very
(08:50):
young, one of my uncles passedaway.
And it wasn't about the, Ithink it was the way that he,
the way that the family dealtwith the loss at that point in
time.
He was the youngest of thefamily.
Everyone else was married andout, so he was like the one
uncle that was always home.
So, whenever we went, all of uslike all of the siblings with
their kids came to mygrandparents' house and it was
like joyous.
They lived in Borough Parks.
It was very festive.
I used to go with my fatheractually um to Tish Friday night
(09:12):
when I was very, very little.
We used to be very close to theBaba Rabba, rav Shalima, halvah
, shalom, so um.
But I remember like reallyfeeling festive and joyous.
So when my uncle died, I thinkthe way that the family dealt
with it or wanted to deal withit was really harder on the
children than I think that theymight have realized.
(09:33):
And even as I talk about it now, it brings up a lot of emotions
for me, like a lot of sadness.
But basically he got injuredand then he was in the hospital
for two weeks and in those twoweeks we were all like davening
and saying to him and themessaging that I kept getting
and my siblings and relativesand cousins kept getting is it's
(09:55):
getting better.
Wow, I'm getting so emotionaltalking about this right now,
but and then when he um, one ofthe adults in the family said
like he's all better now, and Iremember being so excited
because I was writing him cards,um, and I also could tell like
(10:15):
the sadness from my parents andmy grandparents and my aunts and
uncles, like there was justlike a heaviness.
It was the night of Hanukkahwhere we were all supposed to go
out to get like Hanukkahpresents and we heard like he's
not okay, um, and so I rememberthe confusion as a kid of coming
home and then saying, okay,where is he?
And then being told, oh, he'sin, like the best place ever,
(10:38):
and I said, okay, where is he?
I can't wait to see him.
How was it?
Was the hospital, um?
And then, um, being told, oh,like, he's with, like malachim,
with angels and shemayim, and Idon't know if it was so much
like the words of like the hopeof like he's all better, and
then being told like, oh,actually he's like in heaven
with angels, with malachim, orif it was more of the lack of
(11:02):
conversation during or after,but it was almost like ever
since then, like mygrandparents' house became like
a sad place to be.
It's obviously since thenshifted a lot.
I'll bring you back to when Iwas younger.
It was very sad, it was veryempty, there wasn't conversation
around it, it was like let'stry to be joyous, but there was
a lot of pain and sadness ineveryone's eyes.
(11:23):
There wasn't reallyconversation around what does it
mean when somebody dies?
What does it mean when theyoungest in a family dies?
What is death?
How do we grieve?
Do we talk about the person whodied?
And so it's interesting becauseI've been connected to Sarah
Rivka Cohn from Lynx a lot andshe talks about like there's a
book actually they wrote and Iadded a segment at the end like
(11:43):
a guide for parents on talkingabout like loss and death for
children.
And I love how she talks aboutlike don't use code words, right
, like don't use fluffy words,like use the word like dying or
nifter or no longer here,because or else it's very
confusing.
And so I think that like one ofthe things that that happened
is that there was like anavoidance of dealing with
(12:04):
emotions and it was kind of likelet's just sugarcoat and move
on.
But we can't just sugarcoat andmove on.
This is a broken heart.
This is pain that impactedeveryone in the family for many
different reasons, and I was akid back then, right, so for me
I had.
I had to process much later onlike I thought maybe if I daubed
more, if I prayed more, I couldhave helped him heal.
(12:25):
I think there was like confusionand it's interesting because
I'll just share.
Like as a therapist, I didn'tremember the impact of this so
much.
I think I more was like a verysensitive kid.
I always wanted to caretake forpeople.
At that point I think I sharedthis like I was just.
I was always a very happy kid,but I kind of took on that role
even more of just being like Ihave dimples everyone would call
me dimples or smiley orsunshine.
(12:46):
So I kind of took on the roleto try to make everyone happy.
But when you're trying to makeeveryone happy, when there's
grief like you're not really,it's not always going to work
right.
It's not just like making themhappy and singing a song.
There's like a deep pain.
So I think I shared with youlike it was only once I had my
(13:07):
child.
We know this about grief thatanniversaries or milestones in
our life often can kick up griefand can kick up pain.
And I see this in my practicewith people who are survivors of
trauma or a lack of emotionalconnection or don't know how to
deal with conflict.
Anything that can trigger afeeling that you did or didn't
have can wake something up, andusually it's an invitation for
healing, right, but it can feeluncomfortable.
So it only took once I had myown child, who was around the
same age that I was when I lostmy uncle that a lot of my grief
(13:32):
right, it's kind of calleddelayed grief A lot of my grief
almost started kicking up and itwas so foreign to me.
So I knew all of this because Iwas treating therapists for
quite treating clients andtherapists and training people.
For quite some time I'd done alot of my own healing work in
terms of some of my own anxiety.
I used to have really bad bellyaches.
I used to carry a lot of myanxiety in my belly and have
somatic symptoms and it wasfascinating to me and also like
(13:55):
it threw me a little like hey,how come I'm suddenly feeling
like uncomfortable?
Why am I suddenly teary eyed?
What's going on for me?
And then, as I obviouslystarted putting the pieces
together, I started processinglike the loss of my uncle and
the lack of conversation.
I was always outspoken, I wasalways researching, I was always
(14:17):
speaking about things andeveryone was like shh, just be a
lady, just be quiet, just belike you know and I'm like no,
we have to talk about ourfeelings and our anger and our
happiness and our sadness.
So I will tell you.
I just have to say somethingpositive though I do want to say
my grandparents have done a lotof healing work.
They are a lot more vocal abouttheir experiences, my aunts and
uncles.
There's a lot of like health andhealing in the family.
(14:38):
My immediate family, I will say, is pretty emotionally like
awake, like we've all become,like I think my parents did
something right in this arenawhere, over the years, like as
we've all evolved and as I cameinto the therapy field and I
kind of share everything that Iknow about trauma and anxiety
there's a lot of conversationsaround healing and about like
having homes of, liketransparency and health.
(15:00):
And I think, like, just like wehave legacy burdens, like an
internal family systems we talkabout, like we all carry like
burdens, just like people comefrom the Holocaust carry certain
burdens and we have griefsometimes there's something
called carried grief, like we'recarrying the grief of previous
generations.
So I definitely feel like I'vehad that and my family has had
that.
And, in the same note, there'salso like there's carry, there's
(15:22):
legacy, like there's gifts,right.
There's also like there's carry, there's legacy, like there's
gifts, right.
There's also like legacy giftsthat we're given, like that
we're bringing forward thingsthat are beautiful, there's
strength, there's wisdom,there's humility.
So I do want to share that.
But, yeah, I think, as I got alittle older and I'm naming this
because a lot of peoplesometimes say why, when life is
fine, or why when I'm suddenlythis, why all of a sudden, out
(15:48):
of the blue, this is coming upfor me and I'm like I don't know
if it's out of the blue I thinkyou want to integrate, I think
you want to live, I think youwant to see your, your child,
not through the eyes of what youwent through, but in the
experience of real life and alot of times when something
hasn't been processedemotionally or verbally, um,
things come up right, likesometimes somebody will come in
and talk to me and they're veryactivated and it's usually like
there's something from the pastcould even be their parents pain
(16:08):
or their parents secrecy thathasn't been shared.
So I think, just like I learned, I started learning a lot more
about grief.
Grief is not usually just grief.
I think we spoke about this.
Sometimes it's the loss of.
If a parent doesn't know how tonavigate their grief, if a
family doesn't talk about grief,then there's a losing a certain
sense of connection, or there'slike losing a sense of
(16:29):
relatability to other people inthe community or um they're
shifting your whole identity ofwho you are as a person.
So there's a lot of like umother layers of grief at play,
and I will tell you that Iremember wanting one of running
in one running one of the groupsat Mirim, we had a conversation
around families that were moreopen around grief and loss or
(16:50):
about potential of death andother ones that weren't, and
everyone who shared that therewas much more open and honest
conversations about allpossibilities had significant
less symptoms when the loss anddeath um happened than those
where there was a lot moretiptoeing and secrecy around it.
(17:10):
And I just I guess my onemessage over here on this is
like it's my message across foranyone in any kind of dynamic.
If it's like parents who arenavigating difficult marriage,
if there is a struggle thatyou're having, one of the
biggest pieces is one to likedevelop transparency or start
making sense of your ownemotional narrative for yourself
(17:31):
, because even if you don't sayanything to your children.
If you're clearer, then there'sa sense of clarity.
Dr Becky Kennedy she wrote thebook Good Insight, where she
talks about, as a parent,raising our children could be
very difficult, especially if wehave children who are deeply
our children.
Could be very difficult,especially if we have children
who are deeply feeling, childrenwho are very sensitive.
But she says, like, imagine,she's like, but sometimes we
think that we have to tell asecret or cover up and on the
(17:53):
one hand, yes, it feels like itcould be good to kind of not to
protect them, but on the otherhand, are we really protecting
them?
And she says this story likeimagine you come into work one
day and your boss seems allstressed out and he's like,
talking on the phone, reallyanxious.
It sounds like he can't coverhis bill for something,
something went down, a badbusiness deal.
And you come in and suddenlyyou realize he's stressed and
suddenly he wipes the look offof his face and with a fake
(18:15):
smile he's like hi, it's so goodto see you.
And you say is everything fine?
And he says I'm a littlestressed.
Um, we're going throughsomething a little tricky, but
I'm in it together with you andwe're gonna all figure this out
as a team and I'm gonna have tomake some adjustments.
(18:36):
But let me tell you a littlebit about it, or this is what I
could tell you, and if there'sany other things, I'll keep you
updated.
So she says how, like so manytimes, we think because we don't
know how to deal with our owncomplicated emotions or our own
fears or discomfort, wesugarcoat or we pretend and this
is not a me telling a story ofwhat I wish happened, because I
love who I am today, I love thehumility and the nuance that I'm
(18:59):
learning, and I still have somuch to learn as a person, as a
mom, as a professional, and I'veso come to appreciate, like how
learning how to hold ouremotions or acknowledging the
emotional layers of reality asuncomfortable as they are is
sometimes the biggest gift wecould give ourselves and our
children and those around us andthis applies, by the way, in
(19:21):
adult relationships too.
You know, when somebody is veryavoidant or secretive and it's
like be transparent with me,right, like there is just a
level of safety that comes whenlife is hard.
It's very painful, but likepretending or not being able to
share is actually almost evenharder and leaves people feeling
so alone and the one thing weknow about trauma is the most
(19:41):
painful part of trauma it couldbe a loss, it could be a death,
it could be a pain is goingthrough the experience alone.
It's not always the negativeexperience.
It's going through a painfulexperience and feeling
disconnected from other people.
If I can hold someone's hand,if I could be right, even if we
look at like the stories ofpeople right now, like the
hostages or any kind of researchthat you look at, people go
(20:02):
through pain.
When there's another humanbeing in the connection, there's
incredible level of relief forthe brain and the body, for the
brain and the body.
I feel like I'm on a soapbox,yeah, no, no.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I could probably ask you a question on every sentence
that you said, but I won't.
But I am curious to hear whenyou say when you did go through
your processing after your childreached that age, who did you
do it with and who, so to speak,I guess, held your hand?
And also, as a therapist, youknew all the answers.
But that doesn't mean you couldreally do it yourself, like
(20:39):
sometimes a therapist couldstill Totally no, I couldn't, I
totally couldn't.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Was there another question and then I'll answer no
, I think those two.
I was seeing a therapist at thetime who I really liked Um, and
she was very skilled at whatshe did.
Um, but I started having theselike weird symptoms or weird
like snippets of memories and um, and of course, I knew
everything and I was pretty likeevolved and advanced Um.
(21:04):
But here's another tidbit.
I guess for anyone listening,it's like trust your gut and
find really, really skilledpeople and study people to hold
your hand in any process.
I would say this for anythingin terms of friendships, in
terms of workplace, in terms ofworkplaces, in terms of the
community, you're surrounded by.
Finding people who really likehave your back and really get
you and understand you is soimportant and especially for
(21:25):
therapists, like it's having agood therapist that really is
like um, getting expertconsultation and has training to
really support you in whateveryou're going through.
So I was seeing a therapist andI started sharing some things
that were coming up and I justkept feeling like she's not
really getting a deeper layer ofwhat I'm saying.
And she was a good therapistand actually I was in a pretty
(21:47):
advanced training myself at thetime and I went over to one of
the consultants there and I saidI'll share with her some of
what I'm going through.
And she's like, wow, it lookslike you have a deeper layer of
healing to do.
I'm like, wow, I'm so totallywhole.
And she's like and so I said,oh, but this is so uncomfortable
, like it's in the past.
And you know, she saidsomething so profound to me this
, this trainer, this consultantof mine, who I really respect
(22:09):
I'm not going to share her namebecause I don't know if I have
the liberty to but she said youknow what happens?
As we're in this line of work,we engage in like different
layers of like healing, of likeintegrating more of ourselves,
of our past, our presence, ourfuture, right, so she's like
it's not that, it's not thatlike we never let's say we go
through a phase in our life likea lot of therapists say oh, I
went through a difficult timeand then I got better and now
(22:31):
I'm healing.
That's not the way that itworks.
It really isn't.
Look at any rabbi, look at anymentor.
Life is an ongoing experience oftriumph and of tribulations, of
feeling lost and feeling found,of feeling connected, of
feeling disconnected, of feelingscared and of feeling safe.
And I think it's a matter moreof like how do we acknowledge
those as ongoing experiences,make better choice points in
terms of our relationships, interms of who we surround
(22:52):
ourselves with, so we have morehealth and more healing, more
support, so we have better life.
But it's not that those go away.
And so she said she's like look, it's an ongoing process of
like if you're doing this depthwork with clients, which I was
and I do people know me I dovery depth work with clients.
Clients come to me when they'relooking for, like, a deeper
layer of healing or relief, anEMDR or somatic work, because I
(23:15):
feel like that's where the realrelief actually takes place in
terms of symptom reduction.
But she said, if you'recommitted to this, then you're
always going to have like timesin your life where, when you're
ready to do a deeper layer ofwork, to really integrate more
of who you are, your life, or asyou become more present for
your own children's needs, theremight be some things that come
up.
So she's like I had a timewhere, like I had to navigate
(23:37):
certain like.
I don't know what she wentthrough, if it was like anxiety
or for her it might have beenlike a period of depression, and
she's like.
And then like, many years later, she's like things were more
steady and there was somethingthat came up with my husband's
workplace and she's like it didput me into like a tricky spot
and she's like, but then itwasn't as frightening or
uncomfortable because I alreadyknew, I got to know my nervous
system, I got to understandthese symptoms, I understood it
(23:58):
but I still needed somebody tohold my hand and she's like and
now again she was like way older.
She was like in her sixties,almost reaching seventies.
She's like I'm going throughsomething else right now with
like health issues.
You know, she was like justsharing a very human experience
of how life is, like a washingmachine and there's phases where
it feels frightening oruncomfortable, but we almost
it's not like, it's not like ourlives get better, but we get
(24:20):
better.
So I think that really gave mecomfort.
So I actually consulted with herfor a few sessions and then I
found a new therapist who justoff the bat, like the first few
sessions, is in.
I think I just felt this likedeeper capacity, more of a
clinical nuance, to help meprocess what I was processing.
So you asked me oh, so Idefinitely got like an expert in
(24:42):
my corner right.
I knew like I know and I knewand I think we all do Like when
you have someone who's just like, oh, this is what's going on
and here's how I'm going to helpyou and they don't get
overwhelmed and they're justmatter of fact is a game changer
.
Because if you're sitting witha therapist who's overwhelmed I
know I'm laughing, I'm notlaughing but I'm smiling but
it's the most scary anduncomfortable and unsafe feeling
(25:03):
to be with a therapist or toshare something with someone who
looks scared or overwhelmed,and usually it's because they're
not the right fit.
And I just knew and I guess thegood thing that I want to share
with anyone is because I am atherapist I did know, wait, I
know when something's a good fitand I know when something's not
a good fit.
I will say that in finding theright person, I did try a few
(25:23):
people and there was one nightthat I literally sat down on the
floor with like my sisters andI was just, I just like burst
into tears.
I'm like guys, I can't findsomebody.
I'm like I know what's goodwork.
I'm like, my colleagues aregreat, I'm great, like.
And then I did end up findingsomebody who was amazing.
But they were like hey, we'regoing to find someone amazing
for you, because I didn't justneed therapy.
I think when we're, let's say,if you're doing grief Right, so
(25:54):
I just felt like I knew thatthere was a nuanced kind of good
somatic processing, goodprocessing about the death and
the pain and the fears that Ihad that were coming up, that I
knew could be processed becauseI did it as a therapist and I
had seen a good work being done.
So that's one, I think findingsomeone who really gets you and
is experienced in the kind of-.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
That also means someone that really knows how to
ask the right questions to getyou to understand what's going
on right.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Love what you're saying.
Yeah, basically, I love whatyou're saying.
You're basically sayingexpertise is really someone who
it's not that they're doing thetherapy for you, it's they know
how to ask, like those specific,targeted questions and insights
to bring you exactly to thepain and the suffering that you
are going through, so actuallyyou could start processing it
instead of skipping around it.
You're saying like saying tobring you exactly to where you
(26:46):
need to go.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Right, because you yourself don't necessarily know
where you are and where you needto go.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Oh yeah, to answer that question 100 percent.
No, I don't care how smart youare as a therapist.
I don't care how smart you areas a therapist, but you see this
with rabbis, you see this withlike.
The one thing I will say, beingin the field for like close to
15 years, the one thing that Ilove about like people I've
interacted with, like people inlike big leadership roles,
(27:13):
rabbinic roles, therapist rolesis the people who I admire are
very humble, because it doesn'tmatter how wise you are, it
doesn't matter how manycontributions you've made to
society and to your family andto the world.
We're always in a position ofgiving and we're always in a
position of taking.
And so I do think that there'ssomething like you're asking me.
No, I don't.
Just like I know they say likethe shoemaker is not going to
give his kids the perfect shoes,the doctor can't treat his own
(27:33):
child.
Yeah, you could have.
For the generic stuff, I do haveto say like having good
colleagues and having access toa lot of wisdom, I do think just
made me feel much more likehopeful and trusting that I
would move through whateversymptoms I had, which I did,
which is kind of why I'm sharingthis on here Because one of the
biggest things when I seeclients is like I don't get
frightened by their symptomsbecause they make trauma or
(27:54):
neglect or loss.
It's healable.
The pain and the way that wechange our beliefs about
ourselves or others in the worldtakes time to process.
But like the scarring of theheart, like people don't have to
live with symptoms of trauma orsymptoms of grief, they don't
have to be living in constanttrauma or symptoms of grief,
they don't have to be living inconstant suffering.
You're going to live in painbut the intensity of some
(28:17):
emotions if you actually helpthe mind and body process, it
really can and does and doeslessen if you're getting the
right kind of intervention.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Right, right.
This doesn't mean you're notgoing to have, like I always say
with healing I'm always likewe're going to engage in healing
we always have to leave a slicefor grief, because grief is an
ongoing process and you might gothrough an experience where
things feel more or less okayand then suddenly you have a
neighbor that said something andit kicks off like a grief
emotion, right, or so, I think,just like a acknowledging that
and knowing how to work withwhen it comes up.
(28:45):
But I do see how, like, theright kind of skills and the
right kind of therapeuticinterventions really do help.
But yeah, mary, I'm, it doesn'tmatter how skilled you are like
, uh, you can't do your own, youcan't do your own therapy.
Which is why, like, why I say,like I really respect people who
are humble, because I'm sayinglike in I remember writing an
(29:08):
article a long time ago.
They asked me like to write anarticle on parenting and I was,
like I'll write something from atherapist standpoint, I'll
write something as a parentstandpoint.
But really, at the end of theday, like, skills and all this
research doesn't really matterbecause at the end of the day,
we're all humans doing a humanexperience.
So I think like at the end ofthe day, we're all kind of like
trying to find wholeness inourselves.
(29:29):
But yeah, being skilled maybejust gave me more trust and
confidence and knowledge.
So I felt like skilled.
But yeah, you can't heal yourown self.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
So in the front community, is there like the
therapist?
Therapist Like I alwayswondered.
You know Benet Brown, right,she talks about her therapist.
I'm like, who's brave enough tobe your therapist?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
I think some therapists are.
So for me, I know thatdefinitely I've been like a
picky one.
Um, I do think there'ssomething that happens to be I
treat some therapists, um, rightnow, my practice I have like a
small practice, meaning not asmall practice at a group
practice, but on my personalcaseload I have just like a
number um of clients.
I do think that there are sometherapists that are more skilled
(30:12):
at treating therapists, becauseessentially, what you?
There's two things.
One is that I don't know ifit's that you need to be an
expert.
I do think you need to be veryclinically nuanced and have a
lot of skills, but I think it'smore than that.
If I can be a little like candid, I think it's that you're
someone who has done a lot ofdepth work and you're
continuously doingself-reflection, which I think
(30:37):
all therapists are, but some area lot more like self-reflective
I think about, like Judy Hermanshe talks about, like doing
trauma work or doing deep griefwork, like there's a level of
pain, like you're letting yourclient's stories be carved into
your heart, and I feel likethat's the kind of therapist
that I like to be and I want toalways be, and every therapist
is different, like some ordifferent phases in our life, we
can't.
There was a period of time thatI took a break from seeing
one-on-one clients when I wasstruggling a lot of staff at our
(31:00):
office.
I was focused on my trauma,training and parenting.
I didn't have that same levelof bandwidth and to me I was
like I'd rather take like a sixmonth break or a year break from
the one on work, then do notdepth work for my clients.
And then I resumed when I wasable to like manage my energy
better and be like okay how muchenergy.
Because to me it's like if I'mreally sitting with clients,
(31:22):
like I like the depth work isthere, oh, but for therapists I
think there are some therapiststhat work with therapists and
then you also want to noticelike who's in the room, because
you're not here to treat thetherapist, you're here to treat
the self and so the therapistself is just a part.
If you think about IFS partswork, we have different parts.
It's basically just a part thatcould be in the room.
(31:43):
So you don't want like twocolleagues talking to each other
.
It's basically like thetherapist part could be
professional.
It's almost like when I treat adoctor or a lawyer or a person
who's in like corporateleadership.
It's like I'm going to noticeyou have that part of you and
that part I'm going to ask it tolike let's acknowledge it and
step aside so I can actuallywork with the symptoms or the
struggles.
So you have to be a littlebossy, not in a bad way.
But Pat Ogden always says thefounder of sensory motor therapy
(32:05):
she says like you only contactwhat you want to work with.
So if a client comes in tellingyou five different stories but
their core theme is lonelinessor their core theme.
Core theme is anger.
Don't go along with everythingelse.
You say I'm, wow, I'm hearingthere's so much going on and and
could we notice the anger thatcomes up when you talk about you
, know your father, so so it'salso like knowing how to be a
(32:26):
little like strategic, and thisis where I'm going, zooming in,
and this is where I'm zoomingout.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, Wow, it's amazing.
Okay, so we know that you havethat humbleness that's needed
with therapists.
So anyone listening, if youwant a humble therapist, should
we talk about your second lossor something you don't want to,
someplace you don't want to goto?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
My second loss, oh, my, the second uncle that passed
away.
Yes, okay, so actually, no,that's okay.
I'm very sensitive right nowtalking about it, but that's
because loss is very painful.
Um, the second loss wasincredibly different, actually.
This is why I should talk aboutit.
So then I had an uncle who,when he was 40 years old uh,
(33:09):
this is like painful to talkabout I have a an uncle that
when he was 40 years old, he had, um, like a sudden heart attack
.
He has a wife and 11 childrenthat he left behind um, is this
from your father's side?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
no same same, okay, okay um one second.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I'm just like taking a breath for a second no problem
but I want to tell yousomething like as I zoom out.
First of all, my mother'sfamily is incredible in terms of
coming together in face ofcrises and pain and connection,
and we've always had like umrabbi, that we were very close
to that point.
My grandparents lived in Israel.
We're very close to the TalnaRabbah um, so I think, like
(33:54):
having like Das Torah and theright support is really
important he was really therefor, like my cousins and my
aunts and you know just likebeing able to process the loss.
Actually it was right beforePurim, so we still celebrated
Purim and then we sat Shabbat.
But I have to say something.
This is what I think isimportant.
I think I shared with you thesecond loss did not hit as hard
(34:15):
and did not cause me at likenearly the impact that the first
one did, and I think I wassharing this with you, not
because I think people should gothrough loss, but because I
think that, like I was older, somentally I was able to
understand what was going on.
I asked a lot more questions.
I was much more part of, likethe grieving process and the
(34:37):
pain and the shock I was able tomove through, like the anger
and the loss and just so many ofthe emotions and the sadness
that I didn't get to experiencewhen I was a kid and even just
seeing like being almost like onthe same footing, like I was
already like older.
I was in my 20s, I was at adifferent phase of life so like
(34:57):
I could appreciate the emotionswere harder for me, but they
were easier in the long run, andso I guess the reason I was
saying all of this is because,although that was very, both of
them were very painful.
The one that was much moreconfusing as a child, and I
guess this is the piece on liketaking away confusion and, by
the way, so much of what traumawork is just so you know,
whenever I help someone process,let's say, they had a parent
(35:20):
that was very emotionally absentand there was grief.
Sometimes it's the grief andsometimes it's you know what,
like I lost a brother but mymother was so emotionally gone
and I just needed my mother tolook at me when I was crying
about my brother.
You know, like sometimes that'sthe piece that's so painful.
Or when somebody's processingsexual trauma or somebody and
they're like, wait, I don't know, but I think he touched me or
maybe he just looked at me inthe sexual kind of way.
(35:40):
So the confusion is the thingthat really causes people
symptoms, because we want tohelp people understand their
emotions, make sense of theirstories, process it and then
they could be okay.
Trauma or grief or loss is notwhat destroys us.
It's the confusion and it'scalled, in scientific terms,
dysfunctionally storedinformation.
It's like having a piece ofmeat that you.
It's like giving a baby a pieceof meat and they don't have
(36:02):
teeth so they can't chew it toswallow, so they constantly are
having indigestion.
If you have a loss in yourfamily, if you have grief, if
there's secrets, if there'sprivacy, if there's lack of
emotional space, so you can't dowith your family, so hire a
therapist, have an auntie, havesomeone, someone in the school,
you know, like find a friend,someone to talk to, to process
these emotions, cause if wedon't process it it makes us
(36:23):
sick.
So back to this, like I think,the not confusion, the clarity.
Of course there's pain, but itwas like an ache.
It wasn't like an ache thatlike cause what we.
It wasn't an ache that wentaway and then came back very
strongly.
So unprocessed grief often islike we see this with trauma
right, or pain is like ifsomething hasn't been processed,
(36:43):
like as a child likely, I kindof felt it.
I probably tucked it away insome kind of way which was
brilliant, and then as an adultit came back for it to be
processed.
Which is why so many timespeople land up in my office or
my group practice office ortherapists that I train in my
trauma training, like fellowclients who you know, suddenly
has like teenagers in theirtwenties or thirties or forties.
I've worked with someone whowas like in their seventies, who
(37:04):
was like I have so much anger.
Yeah, there was one person Ihad a really profound
conversation with.
He said to me I'm old and Iactually am sick, but I have a
couple more years on this planetand I don't want to die an
angry man.
It's like I have so much angerin my body and I want to at
least have a couple of years onthis earth that I'm not feeling
angry.
I want to have a betterrelationship with my children.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
That is so sad.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
It was sad and it was so beautiful that there was
someone who could value me, youthink about, like people who
struggle, who are like inrecovery for addiction, and they
always say, like, if you caneven have one sober day and you
can appreciate being presentlike he had this guy, then you
can appreciate the value of thatwhich we actually value as Jews
this man.
It was very sad, but whatreally touched me is how
(37:47):
incredible that a man who was soemotionally not tuned into his
emotions is actually realizingthe one most important thing is
his relationship with hischildren and that he he wants to
actually be, not live a lifethat's constantly stuck in anger
.
He actually had maybe it washis energy.
It wasn't an angry energy, itwas like, hey, you know, you're
like half my age or whatever hesaid.
He said like a funny joke andhe's like but could you help me?
(38:09):
I'm like, listen, you're waywiser than me, let's just get
that out of the way, but I mightbe able to help you work
through your anger.
So it was very sweet.
But to me what touched me islike sometimes different
generations or different familymembers are receptive to
openness and some aren't, and Iguess for me, just as a person
like I I value in my own parentsor like elders in my family are
(38:31):
receptive and humble to talkingabout emotions when maybe they
weren't in a previous life.
Like when I have conversationswith my parents, sometimes it's
like it's fascinating how likeit's just different
conversations that we can havewhen we develop emotional
awareness.
And so I guess I appreciated,as someone who's seen people in
their 70s and 80s in my familysome who are more open and some
(38:54):
are less I guess I valued theopenness or the wanting to be
open to that.
But yeah, I think like thedifferences of how the losses
impacted me was very profound tonotice.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
So I'll tell you what I'm thinking now, and I'm not
even sure what you said.
I don't know.
I guess something that you saidabout, I don't know, noticing
it at different times, thetrauma, I'm not even sure, but
it's coming up a conversationthat I had recently.
My sister passed away and itwas never.
Birthdays were never, are never, a hard thing for me.
(39:30):
It doesn't.
It doesn't like I know manypeople have a hard time with it.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
But I was talking to someone and I said, and I said,
oh my gosh, hello, by the way.
Do you know that yesterday wasmy sister Esty's birthday?
And I didn't even realize until, like I think it could be, the
day was over and he could be, itwas like 12 or one.
When I saw my other sisters,Like that's right, I said, but
you know what mattered to me,she would have been 50.
And that hit me like 50, likelike that's like an age, that's
(39:54):
like a big birthday.
And somehow, like that hit meand I'm thinking about that as
you're talking, I'm not evensure why.
And then I look at the screenthat we're recording on you know
, Esther and Miriam, right,Esther and Miriam, like that's
what we were, you know, and Idon't know.
I guess I just have to like putit out there.
There's something that you saidabout I don't know something.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Wow, how old were you when your sister passed?
I'm saying, how many years agowas that?
Is that okay to ask?
Speaker 2 (40:20):
It's a question that I hate, because for those that
didn't go through a loss, itseems like, oh, it's so long ago
.
You're used to life without heralready.
It happened so long ago, butshe's still so close to me in so
many ways and I think about herand talk about her all the time
.
Let me see, it's 12 years.
No, my daughter's 14, and she'snamed after her and I was very
(40:42):
early pregnant.
I guess that means it's about12 years.
But she's like getting into nailpolish.
Now, my daughter, I'm not intonails, as you can see, but she's
like very into it and she'sbusy for vacation.
I was busy like for vacation.
I let her like buy the nailsI'm putting she's busy, yeah,
being all over the place and Iwas like Esty, esty, esty was
(41:02):
busy with the nails.
Oh, she is.
Oh, like it just comes up.
Yeah, like you said, like itcould be fine, and then
something will trigger that like, yes, esty and her nails.
Now Esther Malky, my daughterwould appreciate those nails.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
You know whatever, wow, so yeah yep, I think it
changes us, like, um I was justtalking to a client about this
about like, like health andsickness and like life and death
, and I think that we're allimpacted by it, some of us more
than others.
(41:29):
Some of us have seen like adarker, more painful side of
life, um, either in loss, eitherin pain, in like neglect and
abuse and trauma and confusionand feeling ostracized socially,
limited academically, Like Ijust want to name that there's
so many different ways thatpeople go through loss and grief
(41:50):
, right, like infertility, oldersingles, like I think there's
just so many aspects, specialneeds, children.
Like there are so many externaland internal, like implicit
aspects to grief, and I thinkthat like being able to speak
about like it's just a differentworld when you experience the
reality of loss right Becausewe're not programmed to lose.
(42:14):
We're programmed to lose elderlypeople loss, right, because
we're not programmed to lose.
We're programmed to loseelderly people, right.
It's like a full life cycle andeven then it's really difficult
.
But I think it's very trickywhen it's like as a sister I
mean, I'm actually one of fiveand I have I'm one of four girls
and a brother Like as you say,that that makes me so sad.
Like my sisters mean so much tome that 12, 14 years ago, like
(42:36):
what do you mean?
She's your sister.
Like that's huge.
Sisters could be like bestfriends, you know.
Yeah, is it difficult to beasked like having these
conversations.
Is it okay for me to ask onhere, like, is it painful to
hear about people's loss or doesit?
What's it like for you to hearother people's stories?
Speaker 2 (42:55):
to hear about people's loss, or does it?
What's it like for you to hearother people's stories?
No, I don't find it difficultbecause number one I learn a lot
from people.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
I love learning.
I love meeting people, I lovegetting to know people.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
I really, really do.
I just finished, I mean, oh,whatever, still editing stages,
but the finished writing with.
I did with you know, mr Holman,a book for parents that lost
children.
And people ask me like how doyou do that?
Like I hear so many sad stories.
You know, there's always like Isee people, or I speak to
(43:30):
people, I should say, at themost vulnerable, vulnerable,
painful points, like I seegreatness.
I mean, you wouldn't know thatyour neighbor next door made a
decision to do X, y and Zbecause of her grief.
You see a lady that looks likeshe's going to the grocery store
but really she told me thatwhen she went to the grocery
store, this is what happened andthis is what she thought and
this is what she decided.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
I'm like people are like so amazing and then I tell
Hashem that really Moshiach,because we're so great and I
know that he knows that, becausehe knows more than what I know.
We need mashiach on many levelsbut, yeah so you're almost like
touched by people's inspiration, right like, basically, in face
of pain.
You're seeing like you'reseeing people's like soul shine
(44:10):
through.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Right, it's well, but I wouldn't.
It's not inspiration.
It's like real internal workthat they, that they work on.
Yeah, because they're't.
It's not inspiration.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
It's like real internal work that they, that
they work on yeah, becausethey're right, right, it's not.
I'm not saying organicinspiration, it's basically when
we're broken.
It's like sometimes we'rebroken open and then you're
saying, like you're seeing thework or the effort, people are
Right.
What about pain?
Like?
What about not everybody'salways inspired, not everyone's
always like doing somethingbeautiful?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
No, I was just going to say that I'm not.
I'm not necessarily seeing thepeople that started huge
organizations and who knows what.
I'm seeing people like sharingwith me, like their own, like
their own personal, their ownpersonal growth, like trying to
think.
I don't know why I usually havea million examples.
Why can nothing come to mind,like a woman that she, she lost
(44:59):
a married daughter and whateverhappened?
I don't, I don't even knowexactly that.
She didn't tell me exactly whathappened, but they accused her
of whatever it was that theyaccused her and they didn't let
her see her grandchildrenanymore, her daughter's children
.
They used to live on the sameblock, they were coming and
going all the time and nowsuddenly she couldn't see them.
Do you know, like, whatstrength it took for her to say
(45:20):
I'm not going to fight it out,like it's not worth it and I'm
just going to accept and insteadshe davened, she cried Like she
was in tremendous pain, butlike she didn't do an ounce of
my focus.
And I listened to her and I'mlike, oh my gosh, like they
totally wrongly accused her.
She knew who did the thing thatthey accused her of, but it was
their side.
She didn't want to talk lessthan her.
She, you know, understood thatthey're also in pain.
(45:42):
They also went through a losslike and she didn't?
I'm like hello and that's notsomething you're just going
around telling the whole worldyeah, you know so like things
like that that I just leave melike so amazed really, and like
I don't another story.
Someone told me how she came toterms with accepting that her
like the doctor really there wasmalpractice and her daughter
died, but then how she came toterms with it and accepted it as
(46:04):
Hashem's will, because whateverhappened, there's just so much
like that and I don't know why.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
Wow, yeah, no, I actually appreciate you
clarifying.
It's like these layers ofacceptance, right?
It's like these layers ofacceptance, right.
It's like cause.
There's layers of like griefand denial and then like leaning
into acceptance, and that'sreally what I'm hearing in all
of these Cause.
So many big emotions come up.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Um, and the day-to-day life and the
day-to-day thoughts and moments,and yeah, so so tell me, is
there anything that we didn'ttalk about that we should talk
about before we end, I think?
Speaker 3 (46:39):
what I would like.
I think what I would want tolike leave the listeners with if
anyone is listening is a fewmessages.
If I could like just recap Oneis that, like grief is a
universal experience.
So if you lost someone that youloved, that's one kind of grief
.
If, if that's the most painfulgrief, then like that's your
(47:02):
work to work on or to process,and if you are grieving like the
loss of of a relationship or afeeling or a hope or a dream in
your family, like that's alsojust as valid.
Actually wrote a few blogs ongrief, um, so if anyone wants to
like Google my name, estherGoldstein Grief, you'll see
there's some blogs there withlike some resources, some tips,
(47:22):
some self-care, like exercises.
But it's actually not aboutskipping over.
It's about helping you processthrough the grief, because
there's like grief that getscomplicated, that gets stuck,
and then there's grief likesuccessful grief.
Successful grief is that youmove through the emotions and
there's a, there's an energy ofmovement, and then, like
complicated grief or stuck griefis when you get stuck in, as
(47:44):
people are sometimes afraid,like I don't want to be angry
and I'm like there's anger thatyou get trapped in and there's
anger that you move through, wealways want to go with the one
that you're moving through.
Right, so there's processingthrough it, but you don't want
to skip over it, right so it'slike so that's one is.
Like brief is universalexperience.
I think the other thing is likeif you can try to make sense of
your story for you or for yourloved one or your children, and
(48:04):
just find the people or place orperson to just start mapping
the pieces together so that youlessen the confusion If maybe
there's an ongoing loss or painor something of the past, like
often the brain and the bodyreally just need to digest the
information.
Obviously, for whatever age,appropriate is appropriate.
But like be mindful of avoidingfor yourself or for others.
(48:26):
Or like sometimes I'll see aparent or someone in a
relationship and they avoidcertain topics and then their
partner or husband wife is likethey should never want to talk
about this and really it'sbecause they're terrified,
they're avoiding something else.
So there's a lot of lossessometimes when we avoid, like
we're losing something else,losing a relationship with our
children if they want somethingdeeper.
So like lesson avoidance.
(48:47):
And I think the last thing thatI would say is I think like
find your people think, findyour people, friends like Miriam
you're talking about.
Like I think Mayrim is anincredible organization.
I think grief is the kind ofthing if you look at the
research we really heal incommunities, so we don't heal
(49:08):
one-on-one.
And of course I'm going to say,like if you need a therapist,
go find one, but if that's notwhat you're needing or if you
already have one, find yourpeople who understand pain or
could tolerate pain and alsocould tolerate joy.
Like I find people in the griefcommunity or the trauma
community have a lot of capacityfor pain but also have the
biggest capacity for laughter.
I think like laughter and beingsilly.
Just earlier today I was talkingto my mom about something she
(49:29):
said and my nickname is Esteeeven though people call me
Esther, your sister's name isEstee, so Esty like if you ever
want to become a comedian cause,I'm so silly and goofy like
everyone knows this in my life.
Um, and I think, like whenwe've dealt with grief or pain
or loss, I think one of the onlyways to really cope is to also
find the funny and the weird andthe humorous in life.
So I think, like, find yourpeople and really find people in
(49:50):
places and things that help youlike giggle deep, belly
laughter, because I think that'spart of like what Hashem wants
and what I think real living isabout.
It's like being able to feelall the feelings.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
And I just think we have to like say this, that when
a person goes through loss,their friendships might change
and they shouldn't let go of thefriends that were always so
close, because they can't getthe loss, because they might
need to like come back to them.
It's something to still hold onto, but try to find those
(50:21):
friends that you really couldtalk to or laugh with or
whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (50:23):
Yes, yeah, I'm not a big believer in letting go of
friendships.
I think, like being aware ofdifferent friends can have
different capacities.
I do think that sometimesrealizing friends have certain
emotional capacities more thanothers, but like finding your
way, like, let's say, just like,if you have a child who has
dyslexia, there are otherfriends that don't, might not
understand, and so instead ofjust thinking we're not going to
be friends with these peopleanymore, it's like, well, there
(50:45):
is a disconnect or they don'tfully understand it.
And if I do find someone whohas some kind of like difference
in the way that they learn orread, I could actually have a
level of relatability.
But really it starts withunderstanding yourself.
And yeah, I do think thatsometimes relationships will
shift and tweak, because that'show life is.
(51:06):
And yeah, finding, I think,just like finding our people and
having connection is what helpsus move through life with more
okayness, Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
So I hope everyone finds that connection and finds
that okayness and thank you somuch for coming on.
Speaker 3 (51:18):
I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah, I think this is one ofthe forms, mary, I'm like these
podcasts, these conversations Ithink is really a platform for
people to tune in, listen tostories, take what resonates,
drop what doesn't, and I reallywant to thank you for being on
here, for inviting me on.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Thank you.
Thank you so so much.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
You on Thank you.
Thank you so so much.
You've just listened to anepisode of the Relief from Grief
podcast with Miriam Riviat,brought to you by Mayrim.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
(51:59):
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
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