September 25, 2025 • 41 mins
The morning after her baby passed away, Yaffa looked out the window and saw the sun shining. She couldn’t understand how the sun can shine when there was an empty crib in her home and baby clothes that would never be worn again.
With time and a lot of inner work, she and her husband came to a new perspective. Yaffa describes life as an optical illusion: when you focus on only one part of the picture, it can hurt unbearably. But when you pull back and the picture shifts you can see something greater at play. Instead of feeling that they “lost” their son, they came to realize that they had gained 14 precious months with him. As Yaffa says, it is better to have had him for that time than for him never to have been born.
Today, Yaffa is an LCSW who works extensively with clients on their trauma. She shares with us how trauma affects the body and mind—and how recognizing when you’re “stuck” can be the first step toward healing. With the right communication skills and openness to accept help or support from organizations, people can move forward in ways they never imagined.
Yaffa misses her baby, who would be around 22 years old today. She feels the pain at times, but she doesn’t allow herself to stay stuck there. Instead, she chooses to look for faith and continue forward, finding the light in life even through loss.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Grief Journey Podcast, hosted by Mrs
Miriam Ribiat and brought to youby Merim.
Merim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by Eloi Nishmas,nechama Liba and Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:23):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nahamaLiba, passed away.
Merim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:44):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgriefatmayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Everybody, thank you so much for joining me here
today on the Grief Journey byMayrim podcast.
Everybody, thank you so muchfor joining me here today on the
Grief Journey by Maven podcast.
And today I'm very excited tointroduce to you Mrs Yaffa
Dykman, who is an LCSW.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Thank you so so much for coming on my pleasure and
thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yes, I'm very excited .
I know we spoke a lot, but I'mexcited to finally happen.
Okay, so I guess, how about ifwe start with you telling us
what you do and who youtypically work with, and all
about that?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Absolutely so.
As you mentioned, I'm alicensed clinical social worker
psychotherapist.
I work both one day a week inperson in Brooklyn, and
otherwise I'm online.
I treat adults, and so part ofmy work is with people locally
and part of my work is workingwith Americans living overseas
expats living in all parts ofthe world.
(01:50):
I do that work with a groupcalled a group practice, called
the Truman Group, and one otherpart of my work is I work with
US military, both those inactive duty and veterans,
through an organization calledHeadstrong.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Wow, that's interesting, no.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Absolutely.
I enjoy it very much.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, that sounds very interesting.
Okay, so you specialize in AMDRand psychodynamic therapy, but
I guess I'm not really sure whatthese therapies are, how they
work.
Maybe you could explain that.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Sure, if you don't mind my sharing, you know, the
way I got to those therapies iswhen I graduated.
I finished graduate school andI was really looking to develop
my clinical skills because Ifelt like there was more I
needed to know, wanted to knowreally in that kind of work, and
so I turned to my graduateschool.
I heard they had a program incouples therapy and I was
(02:47):
thinking about really that areaof specialty and so I reached
out to the director of theprogram and he told me about it
and he also told me that theprogram took place on Saturday,
chavez.
So I decided obviously I wasn'tgoing to do that and so I.
But I asked him if he had anyother recommendations and he
told me about a program calledthe Training Institute for
Mental Health, which is aninstitute located in the city
(03:10):
and they had a two-yearfellowship program,
certification in couple therapy,and it's oriented toward more
psychodynamic work and I reallytook to that kind of work.
I also had instructors,supervisors, that I really
(03:36):
learned a lot from and continuedto learn from post my
graduation from that program.
Psychodynamic work is a lotabout dealing with, working with
the subconscious, getting toknow ourselves better on a
deeper level.
You know, understanding why wedo what we do, which gives us a
lot more agency in our lives andallows us to really get to
decide more consciously.
You know what we want to do andI'm really drawn to the deeper
(03:56):
work and understanding thingsbetter and people better,
helping people understandthemselves better, and so this
really really spoke to me and sothat's really a big part of how
I work.
It also, just to add to that,it also looks a lot at
relationships and how earlyrelationships are and how that
other later relationshipsdevelop out.
You know as a result of whatearly relationships look like.
(04:19):
That's what we call objectrelations.
So that's also a part of thework I do, and you know I work
with clients.
As I mentioned in the beginning, I work with things like
anxiety, depression, ptsd,post-traumatic stress disorder
and also things like grief andrelationship issues, because
those are, you know, those sortof things can come also hand in
hand, so it's not necessarilyone exclusive of the others.
So that's where you know therelationship piece comes in,
(04:43):
that I do that kind of work.
I do a little bit of some of mywork as couples, but a lot of
my work is individual, and sobecause I was seeing more
individuals in clinic settingwhere I was working before I
went into private practice, Ireally I noticed I was doing a
lot more work with trauma Earlychildhood, you know, abuse,
sexual abuse, differentdifficulties in childhood and
(05:11):
which I was really inclinedtowards working in that way and
I realized I really wanted toalso strengthen my ability to
work with trauma.
And so that's when I heard aboutEMDR and EMDR, which stands for
eye movement, desensitizationand reprocessing, so that was
the therapy I trained in and Ibecame certified in it and I
apply it, of course, workingwith people with trauma.
But it's you know, just youknow.
I should explain a little bitabout it, a little more about
(05:34):
what that approach is.
Does that would that interestpeople, perhaps?
So yeah, so EMDR, which Ibelieve was discovered by Franzi
and Shapiro in the 1980s, wasreally an approach that
originally was about rapid eyemovement and this idea that when
we sleep and our eyes go backand forth and ram, we are able
(05:55):
to process through things,resolve things from our day.
It's since developed into whatwe do is also something called
bilateral stimulation, which istapping, and there are many ways
that people do this kind ofwork.
But the idea was is that we cansometimes get stuck when we
experience a trauma, and EMDR isable to help people move beyond
that place of stuckness andaccess more of their adaptive
(06:18):
thinking, and so it's really aquicker-moving it can really
it's very versatile.
So, even though it originallystarted as a trauma-based
therapy, now we were using itwith anxiety, ocd, depression,
phobias, general, or justmindsets or ways that people
(06:39):
think about themselves and theworld that we can sort of what
does that mean when you say toaccess more of their adaptive
thinking?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
What's adaptive thinking?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
So when you're in a space of trauma, you're going to
go into fight, flight freeze.
There's also fawn mode, soyou're really operating from a
place of a danger versus fromyour cognitive thinking part of
your brain.
And so when we access bothparts of the brain we're able to
give ourselves that way of alsothinking about things.
(07:11):
So it's ability to kind of tapinto both and not just live from
a place of, you know, I'm indanger because people with PTSD
it's like they're you know it'shypervigilance and they're
feeling a lot of I'm still inthat space of danger, as if the
fire alarms are going off butthere's no fire.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So then, how do you decide if someone needs more
EMDR or more psychodynamictherapy?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
So really good question and they get weaved
together.
And what I really appreciateabout the training that I did
was that there was that idea oflike EMDR is not the solution
for everybody, for everything,but rather one thing we can use
in that in a way to help people.
And so I really look at whatthe client is bringing up and,
based on what I'm noticing andseeing, I will introduce EMDR, I
(07:59):
will bring in psychodynamictherapy, because psychodynamic
therapy is very thorough.
I'm looking at also what is theperson representing, how the
person is presenting themselves,and of course that enters into
a space of somatic therapy whichI have not trained in yet.
But so you know, it reallydepends on what the client is
bringing up.
And I do.
I use both together usually.
But EMDR when I'm doing it Ican use it like sort of straight
(08:23):
EMDR, but there are times whereyou know I want to be able to
use also psychodynamic therapy.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
So it's really seeing where the client is at and
seeing what their needs are inthat moment.
Do you tell them what you'redoing or it's not the type of
thing that they have to know?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
You just feel you go with the flow.
I think it's so important,especially for trauma clients,
to really, you know, be incharge of that for themselves.
So I will say you know, I havea therapy and that's the outset
of our sessions.
Here's some of the things thatI do to help people in
situations that you are, youknow, things you've experienced.
So, yeah, I very much informthem.
I won't tell them I'm doingpsychodynamic therapy now, but
(09:02):
EMDR is a little different.
So I want people to feelcomfortable you know and
understand what it is and alsosay consent and say I'm good
with that, I'm not good withthat.
It's up to them.
They need to be in charge andthey need to be in control,
because oftentimes trauma comeswith losing that part, losing
control.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Right, wow, okay, so let me ask you like this from
well, okay, we didn't reallytalk about your story at all.
You mind sharing a little bitabout your own personal loss?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you know I'm thinkingcontrol.
As I say it, I'm like that sortof came into my reference of
mine.
So I was in graduate school.
I had two young children aboutthree and six years old a little
younger at that time and I hadthen had a third child.
A third son was born and as Iwas doing my work and parenting
(09:55):
all at the same time being aspouse this was everything was
developing quite normally.
Everything was developing quitenormally, and so was my son
until he was five months old.
And at five months old hestopped eating, he stopped
sleeping, he would be up allnight crying and I realized
something was wrong with him andI went repeatedly to the
(10:17):
pediatrician and I would say tothem something's wrong with my
son.
I don't know what it is, butplease, you know, we figure this
out.
And each time I would be therefive, ten minutes, whatever it
was, he'd be sitting therequietly, calmly, like everything
was fine, and I would get senthome.
We don't see anything, he'sfine.
Until one day my mother wasvisiting our home and she was
holding him and she noticed likesomething on the side.
(10:38):
She felt like a bump on hisside.
So we had not felt it before.
But I went right back to thedoctor and I said there's
something here and the doctorsaid you should take him for a
sonogram.
So we went off to the hospitaland did the sonogram and they
basically told us that he had atumor and that basically he had
(11:03):
one of three possible kinds oftumors.
It's a kidney tumor and thefirst one would be was Wilms,
which is supposedly more commonin children, if there's a kidney
tumor, and highly treatable.
The second possibility issomething called clear cell
sarcoma which is a little harderto treat I don't know about now
because this was over 20 yearsago and the third one was
(11:26):
something called rhabdoid tumorof the kidney which is extremely
rare.
I was just looking up thestatistics one in a million,
something in the millions, lessthan 100 diagnosed in America
and the United States in a year.
Really rare and reallyaggressive, very hard to treat
and even if one gets treated forit and succeeds at that, it
could also, if they relapse,it's, it's, there's not much to
(11:48):
be done.
So we had those threepossibilities sitting with us at
the time.
You know it was obviouslydevastating but but hopeful,
because he's by his wombs andwe'll.
We'll get through this Um, butthe, the prognosis, they.
They gave us the diagnosis andthey told us that he had
rhabdoid.
That's the third kind.
(12:08):
The third kind, the rare andaggressive kidney tumor, the
worst you'd want to have.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Like mamish from one minute to the next.
Yeah, like he was just turnedupside down.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Absolutely, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Wow, so he went through treatment anyways, I
guess.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
At that point.
So the good thing was that wewere questioning where should we
treat him?
Do we take him to anotherhospital, another state, and we
have two young children at home?
We really didn't want to, butthe doctor who was going to
treat him was discussingprotocol, with consulting with
other doctors who would treatthis, and she also had
successfully treated one out ofa set of twins with this
(12:50):
diagnosis.
So there was like some hopethere, um for us with our son's
case.
His, his tumor had grown somuch that it was pushing on his
lungs and his breathing wascompromised at that point
already, and what they had to dois they had to first shrink the
tumor, remove the tumor, andthen they basically did chemo,
(13:13):
they did radiation and they didsomething called an autologous
stem cell transplant Whoa, totry to.
They were going to be asaggressive as they could be with
it because of theaggressiveness of the tumor.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Wow, Wow.
And then he was 14 months whenhe was lifted.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
you said yeah, I mean , you know, obviously we were
hopeful, you know we reallybelieved that any point, you
know, things can turn around,everything could to be better,
but we, we brought him home andthen he relapsed.
He went back, he had he wasbehaving a little bit oddly and
I brought him back and found outthat he had that he was, you
(13:54):
know, sick and they told usbasically take him to hospice,
there's nothing we can do.
But interesting thing is thatwhen he was in hospital in his
last few weeks of his life,spotted in the hospital a
professor of mine who had beenin graduate school, who actually
was a hospice.
He taught about hospice and Isaw him and I went over to him,
(14:15):
I told him my story and he saidyou'd love to come see my son
and he did.
And I remember asking him like,can kids or people come out of
hospice?
At that point he's like, yeah,can, can kids or people come out
of hospice?
At that point he's like, yeah,it actually it happens.
And so, like you get therenewed hope you know, sometimes
you're like, okay, this, youknow things will get better, um,
things will be okay.
And so, um, but that wasn't, itwasn't what it was going to be
(14:37):
Um so a few weeks later.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Is it true that people come out of hospice?
I mean if someone's gettingtreated.
I mean if someone's gettingtreated hospice won't even
accept them.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Maybe, I'm sorry, maybe.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Maybe it changed, maybe it's different.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah, I don't know.
I guess someone's life healthcan turn around, so you know.
That's why you know we nevergave up.
We did everything that wasrecommended to us, whether it
was medical, whether it was, youknow, spiritual, like we just
went with.
We were going to fight this tothe last and we did.
And so you know he survived for14 months.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Wow, wow, I can't even imagine, I don't know, that
baby For the listeners.
I saw a picture of that baby.
He's a precious little looking,you know, adorable baby.
So I don't even I think it's.
I don't know, I don't know whatto say.
I know that you have a verypowerful message of Amuna, so
maybe we could talk about that.
Yeah, I guess also the questiona little bit would be is like
(15:41):
if you think that message looksdifferent for someone newly
bereaved and someone that's beengrieving for many years.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Right, and if you don't mind to take a step back
from that, because I think faithlooks different before you go
through something like this.
Faith looks different while yougo through something like this,
and faith looks different afteryou go through something like
this.
And um, and I think you know itcomes to my mind and recently I
(16:08):
was thinking about this is thatwhen you're in the ouch moment
and we know those feelingssometimes it just means getting
your foot into a bed.
I don't know if you've ever hadthat experience where you're
just banging against metal andyou're like, ah, those moments,
like you just you know, you'rejust caught up in the pain and I
(16:30):
think it's shaky.
It gets shaken while we're inthese, go through these things,
and then not only while we're inthem, but after we're in them.
And so I'll remember,particularly for me and I think
this is probably true for a lotof people, if not all people
that first year post loss wassuch a hard one, emotionally and
also religiously.
I mean, I didn't stop believing.
I don't think that I stoppedpracticing what I do, but I
(16:53):
certainly it was harder to findthat support and that strength,
even though there were momentswhere, like it was quite clear
in there, but there were alsomoments I was like why did you
do this to me?
Like why in the world would youwant something like this to
happen, and why a child and allthe things that make so much
sense when you're in that, inthat pain.
(17:15):
So my message and what Ibelieve now came with time and
in different, in different waysthat you know that allow me now
to um, to be in a differentplace with it.
Um.
So for those people who arelike, hey, you know, you know I
I didn't come out and like, yeah, god, you did this is fine, I
(17:36):
can accept it, it's your willLike that was a journey to be
able to like come out and beperhaps stronger.
I believe today I'm a strongerperson in that, stronger in
different ways, but it wasn't,it didn't come right away.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
And I think that for any bereaved parents listening
to this, it's very important tohear that that the relationship
with Hashem is going to change.
And even if you have arelationship with Hashem right
now that's such a like morepainful relationship, it doesn't
mean that they're going to bein that pain forever.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Absolutely.
And what's so key and core hereis how we go about the healing.
And you know I'm going to justreference the work I do.
In fact, just thinking aboutwork I was doing just this
morning, you know, one of thethings I learned about PTSD and
this was, you know, I trained inanother therapy I didn't
mention, called STARIN-ST, whichstands for skills, training and
effective and interpersonalregulation, narrative
(18:29):
storytelling.
A whole bunch of words thatmight not mean anything to
people but, and also totherapists like three out of
four therapists I mentioned to,they don't know what it is.
Wow, yeah, it was on the VAwebsite and for a while it may
still be.
And it's.
I think it's similar to TF-CBTtrauma-focused cognitive
behavioral therapy which is more, I think, geared towards
(18:50):
children.
I work with children so I don'tuse that modality, but it's
basically a two-part therapy,combining both cognitive
behavioral therapy andattachment theory, which is what
I like about it because itworks both levels, like more the
CBT, maybe more oriented to thepresent, you know, helping us
feel better in the moment, andthen also oriented towards the
(19:12):
past, attachment, earlierrelationships.
And so why do I mentionstearantestes?
Because when I learned about it, one of the things they talk
about is that PTSD andpost-trauma symptoms will come
more likely when people don'thave the support they talk about
is that PTSD and post-traumasymptoms will come more likely
when people don't have thesupport they need when they go
through something.
And so I'm just againreferencing someone I was
speaking to.
You know, in a therapy setting,where this is you know how much
(19:35):
so especially, we talk aboutchildren who are physically
abused.
The message sometimes given tothem is it was your fault, you
made a mistake.
You know.
Given to them is it was yourfault, you made a mistake, you
know you were wrong, whatever itis, and that makes it that much
harder for us to step out ofthose situations and heal from
it, versus if we have peoplearound us throughout the process
.
When we come to that point, wewant to share it or post the
(20:00):
experience that saved us, thatwas awful, that was a horrible
thing you went through, andwhatever words they use.
So I think that what's importantfor people, listeners and
people to realize is howimportant we have to find those
people and have that communityand the family, of course, if we
can have it.
You know, fortunately I hadsupport from family, from
(20:20):
neighbors, from community, fromorganizations you know you have,
you need that behind us.
If we can't, we don't have it.
Find it Wonderful organizationslike Mayrim you know there are
quite a few more that will bethere and they may not take away
the pain but they certainlymake it more manageable and
tolerable.
Carry you through.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
So let me ask you like this, because it's true
that it's important to find it,but some people might have it
and just don't know how tocommunicate their needs, so they
feel like they're not beingsupported, when really, if they
would be in a place where theycould say this is what I need,
it would make such a differenceA hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
I think one of the challenges also for those of us
in these situations is we don'twant to take of.
The challenges also for thoseof us in these situations is we
don't want to take.
Some of us I might say womenmore than men, possibly, but I'm
not going to say for sure, Ihaven't studied this Maybe
people who are of Jewish faith,of other faiths.
We're givers, we're a communityof givers, and for those that
(21:22):
come from that place, there maybe psychological reasons as well
.
I'm not going to say that thatdoesn't occur as well, but I'm
saying we may come from a placeof I can't take, I need to give,
and it's such a struggle.
I will tell you, and I'mgrateful for one of those people
who showed up in my lifethrough an organization and sent
me this thing I have itsomewhere right up of why it's
okay to take in these situations.
I haven't forgotten it becauseit really kind of took me over
(21:42):
that hump, but it's what we haveto do.
So, yeah, it's hard tocommunicate.
Well, if that's a pattern foryou, you might want to look at
that, maybe even with atherapist.
It doesn't have to be, but youknow.
So if we have a hard timeasking for what we want, we need
to figure out that.
We also have to understand thatthis is our time, where we're
giving others the opportunity toget and sometimes giving others
(22:08):
the opportunity to get thatsometimes we can allow others to
be in that role because that'simportant, maybe for them and
maybe for us.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
This is what we need to be doing, Right.
I like that point that maybeit's important for them because
maybe also like if they're closeenough to they're also
struggling with the loss butthey don't quite know what to do
with it, and this gives them anopportunity to do something
with their own pain that isn'tas severe as the actual bereaved
parent.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Right and we don't even realize how valuable it
becomes, Like those things thatpeople do for you, even though
you hesitate and you resist itagain, make so much of a
difference, and how we getthrough the meals that people
make, the babysitting that theydo, you know, the carpooling,
the different ways that peoplecan step up.
That is a win-win because youget what you need because you
(22:50):
have no other choice.
You can't do it all and youalso give an opportunity for
someone else to feel like I'mdoing something to this person
and I know that's reallyimportant for them.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And I care about that .
Right right, wow.
So was there any um likespecific pastime or to feel, or
something that like helped youduring this time?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
So during the, the, the illness, versus during after
, is it okay if I share on bothends?
Yes, please, okay.
So I think what was was veryhelpful I don't want to say most
because I'm not sure, I haven'tmeasured but what was very
helpful for me and has been inmy life through challenging
times is music, and I'm surethat I'm like the first person
(23:35):
on the planet to say that.
Not really, I think that youknow it sort of lifts me, lifts
my soul, it's just somethingabout it.
It became like again one ofthose like flotation devices,
something I could hold on to.
So that was very helpful.
Obviously, tehillim, psalms,things like that can really do a
(23:57):
lot.
Sometimes it's not, sometimesyou're like I can't, you know,
and sometimes it's just Ryan.
So that's okay, to sometimeswant that and sometimes not want
that.
I think that's really also, atleast for me.
I think that's a really naturalthing in these types of moments
.
So music was really powerfuland helpful.
I think afterwards it was moreabout mindset and the ideas and
(24:21):
thoughts that helped me see myexperience differently.
I think one of the things that alot of people can be challenged
by and I think it makes a lotof sense, is thinking about
their child in.
Oh now he's one years old.
He would have been one, hewould have been 13.
He would have been graduatingfrom high school.
I don't look at, I don't thinkabout that, and not because I'm,
(24:44):
you know, shining my face awayfrom it, but because I think of
each one of us.
We don't have the sameexpiration date.
We all come into this world andleave at different points in
times, and I think what's what I?
One of the ways that I look atthis experience, is that we have
a mission and that we do thatmission, and that's really what
(25:07):
we're.
You know how I look at, youknow the world, and so I mean, I
think that's consistent withTorah, with Jewish concepts, I
imagine that's consistent withother religions.
And I think about could youimagine if someone knocked on
your door today and said to youreally secretly I have something
you can only do and I havegoing to give you all the you're
on a mission.
You have something important todo in this world, accomplish,
(25:29):
and I'm going to give you allthe tools you need to do it and
the challenges that are going tocome with it.
I mean, you know, I don't wantto reference.
I'm not sure referencing.
You know there are movies andshows and talking about missions
and how important that personcan feel and things like that.
But you're the only one who cando this and you're gonna get
those things and I look at it asthat.
I don't look at it as my son.
He died early.
(25:50):
You know it's a tragedy.
I look at it as he's came for apurpose and he did his purpose
and both myself and my husbandlook at it as we didn't lose all
those years of his life.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
We gained 14 months with a child, a special child,
because it's better to havethose 14 months with him than
not have had him at all?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Right, I mean, there's a what a phrase?
Is it better to lose love andlose?
You know, of course we don'twant the 14 months.
Of course we want a longermarriage.
Of course we want our kids tobe around.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Of course we want our parents, our siblings, all that
, wow, wow.
That's very special.
It's very special to like havethat attitude for all these
years.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
And it's time, meaning I didn't have that and
wake up with it.
The day after my son passed.
I wake up to see an empty criband clothing that was never
going to be worn by him again.
So it's time.
There is so much and a sunthat's shining that shouldn't be
shining because our world'sfalling apart, but it's time and
(26:54):
it's going out there andreading things and speaking to
people and taking in information.
I think how we look at things isreally how we can exist and
feel in the world.
And I'll add there's a pictureI saw and I've mentioned this to
a number of people over theyears.
It was a painting and I don'tknow where it is because I'd
(27:16):
take a photo of it and put it onmy phone right now but it was a
picture of trees, lots of trees, and it was like a forest and
somehow you could see littlesparks of light coming through.
And sometimes, when I'm goingthrough an experience in life, I
think to myself do I want tolook at the trees or do I want
to look at light?
Because I choose what I look at, I choose how I see things in
(27:38):
life, and that's you know, andthat kind of makes a difference.
And again, that's one otherthinking thing.
I can't I'm giving it there,because maybe somebody will say
I relate to that, maybe 15people say I don't relate to
that.
But there are others.
There are other ways that wecan pull in comfort, information
that gives us support and makesit easier for us to go through
(28:01):
life.
If I don't, if you don't mind,I wanna just add one other thing
to that.
I think sometimes I also look atlife from a what is an optical
illusion.
There's the picture.
You can see two pictures, right?
Is that what it is?
Optical illusion?
It's been a while since I'veused the term.
Is that where?
you can see the goblets, or youcan see the woman's face, right,
(28:23):
I think that's also similarlyhere is that I don't look at
this world as everything we seeand everything is the physical
stuff.
Then, when you don't have achild, live longer, and you
don't have the car you want andyou don't have all the physical
things, the milestones andphysical things, you only see
(28:45):
that one picture.
The pain is so much greater.
But what you recognize thatthis is part of something bigger
and greater in a plan, and youstart to if you have a faith, of
course and I'm not, you knoweverybody's going to and then
they have to find their way ofthinking and seeing this.
They've seen things, but thenit changes for you.
You have this other perspective.
(29:05):
That's like I'm part ofsomething bigger and there's a
spiritual purpose, there's a,there's a meaning to all this.
It's it's like I have to dothat sometimes, right, when
someone hurts you, it's likethat person hurt me.
No, but there's somethinggreater going on here.
There's something I can focuson the person or I can focus on.
You know that this is part of abigger plan and that there's a
(29:27):
reason I'm in this moment.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Wow, I think that's so nice.
That's like such a good visual.
I mean, for me it's such a goodvisual.
I'm assuming, like you saidbefore, some people might not
relate to it, but somethingtells me a lot of people will,
and so let me ask you this fromyour perspective, as both a
professional and as someone thatyou know, a parent that went
through a loss is there anythingthat you feel is like the most
(29:54):
misunderstood thing about grief?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
misunderstood thing about grief.
It's a good, it's a really goodquestion and it's hard to go
with.
See, as a therapist I'm likemost because that's you know,
that's a lot of you know.
That kind of.
It's hard for me to say youknow most it's I think it would.
I can think of things that docome to mind, but they're
probably you know, if I thoughtbroadly or I went back into
referencing things, I might havemore of an answer that's like
(30:24):
yeah, that's this feels like it.
So I'm going to say what comesto my mind at the moment.
I think it's something that Iimagine a lot of other people
will say.
Sometimes it's the expectationsof you know what it's going to
look like.
You know, and that there's aspecific timeline and a specific
(30:46):
order of loss and we know of,you know in Green's, how it's
going to play out.
You know Elizabeth CooperRoss's work on that.
It's like that there is such a.
It can be so up and down itcould be.
It shows up in different waysin different people and that
sometimes we have expectationsof others or expectations of
(31:06):
ourselves because we think youknow, this is what it looks like
.
It looks like A when it canlook like A, b, c, d, e, f, g,
and then those can.
It can look like G and thenbecome A.
So I think it's you know, thatthere is one way that this thing
plays out.
It's different, for my husbandand I had different experience
with it.
I think we're mostly on thesame page and we fortunately
didn't conflict about it.
(31:27):
But I'm saying we could see itdifferently, we could experience
it differently, and so you know, I would say, if you're five,
10 years down the line and thisis still weighing deeply on you,
figure that out.
I mean, cause that's what Ifortunately it was a year or so,
and again, I don't rememberexactly how much, and I feel
grateful again because therewere resources that I pulled
into.
I wasn't in the same placenearly, and today I'm, you know,
(31:50):
a whole different place.
But it takes time.
We're different.
Someone takes two, three yearsOkay, that's, that's what they
need.
Seven, eight months, that'swhat they need.
But if we're finding ourselvesstuck somewhere, if we're
finding ourselves like feelingguilty or shame, or you know
something last conversationsrelationship was complicated we
might want to get underneath it,because that's the thoughts,
(32:10):
the beliefs that we may getstuck with, that accompany that
experience that we might be ableto move further from if we look
a little bit closer at it.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
I guess all that is one of the reasons why
everyone's grief journey is sodifferent, because it really
does depend on what yourrelationship was like and what
your marriage is like and ifyou're divorced, and if I mean
there's so many, you know, ifs,ifs and ifs.
So I guess that's why, besidesfor the actual loss, there's so
many other things that are goingto really make that journey.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Absolutely, and I'm glad you're sharing that because
it certainly resonates for me.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
And the way you say it just makes yeah, makes you
know, makes it even clearer.
Were there ever things?
Speaker 3 (32:57):
that people said to you that they, like you know,
meant with good intentions butthey were really hurtful.
You know it's interesting.
I remember more the actionswere difficult, um, than the
words, and I know those existand I know there are things you
specifically people will say youknow, especially if you're a
faith, a person of faith, youknow God only challenges the
people who are, you know, arestrong, or, um, you know, uh,
are you know, are strong, or youknow.
(33:19):
They're definitely the moretypical things I think we hear.
I don't remember so muchhearing those.
I do remember ways that peopletry to show up.
That was painful, Like, I thinkone thing is people.
I think either extreme tends tobe challenging, like people just
(33:39):
disappearing from your life.
It's kind of like where are youand I know I'm going through
something difficult, but I wantyou to be in my life still or
people showing up daily andwanting to know what's happening
and wanting to be there andyour life is so upside down you
just want to breathe.
So I think being too present orbeing too absent is something
that can really challenge us.
I think, at least for myself inthis kind of situation.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Right.
I guess that's wherecommunication also comes in,
like if someone is showing upand showing up and it's too much
, like you kind of have to say,because they think they're doing
something good for you.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
You're right, and it's so hard because you're
feeling so hurt and the lastthing you want to do is hurt
somebody, and that's a wholeother window of conversation for
therapists is, like you know,assertiveness.
How do you do?
Because a lot of us don't wantto say no and don't want to make
people feel that, and there's awhole way that we might.
What are we subconsciouslythinking about when we do say no
?
Like our bodies might be, likeI'm becoming evil, I'm becoming
(34:35):
that mean person or someone else.
So there's a lot that can bedelved into over there.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah Well, you know, guilt is the best friend of many
, so I guess you know For sure.
What did I want to ask you?
I wanted to ask you, yeah, alot of times you know, people
will call me up and say to me soyou know, my cousin, my
neighbor, my so-and-so, whateverit is, just lost a child.
What could I say to them?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
So I guess I'm curious what you would answer to
that if someone would ask thatyeah, it's first of all so
thoughtful and they want to help.
I will not say there's one rulethat fits for everybody,
because we're used to uniqueindividual in terms of what we
need.
I you know I hear this writtenand said a lot over time be
specific.
Don't just say what can I do,but say something that you know
that might person might need.
(35:20):
I'm going to bring you dinnerone day, what day works for you.
I'm going to help with yourchildren.
You know what can I do.
So you know and I'll, and maybeyou know you don't want to push
on them Like you have to takemy dinner on Monday night when
you really don't want to eatthat on Monday night.
So saying, but being, you know,being there and in a way that
(35:41):
really is going to be helpful tothem, being specific about what
you can do, I the things thatreally you know struck me as
people just coming to a hospitaland saying you know, asking, of
course you know if they cancome and bringing a soup,
writing a letter.
Then those days it was morewriting letters.
Obviously, texts are much morecommon nowadays, but just saying
those messages, just lettingthe person know you're there,
(36:04):
that you care, but not being intheir face, not invading their
privacy.
And, of course, find out whothe people are who are
organizing things for them,because sometimes there's key
people that those people want tobe in communication with,
because it's easier to have twopeople versus 25 people reaching
out, right, so maybe, hey,someone organizing this, I want
(36:26):
to help you those sorts ofthings right, that's a good
point to find out who, like, themain organizers are.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
I never thought of that.
Well, okay, so I guess myquestion I you know last, my
leading off question is ifsomeone right now is listening
and they're like in the depthsof grief, what would you want to
leave them with?
Or even if someone it's not arecent loss and they're still
feel like their struggle is toomuch.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah, you know, I think some of that's part of
what I've shared perhaps isthere, you know.
I think it depends on wherethey are in that point.
But grief is normal, grief ishealthy.
Unfortunately, for a veryunfortunate, tragic situation,
sometimes it's for an adult thatlived to the 99 years old and
118, whatever it could be, it'sstill grief.
(37:17):
And 118, whatever it could be,it's still grief.
It's real and it's part of whatwe go through and it can be.
We can get through it.
There is going to be.
It's going to reduce.
In the deepest moments it'sgoing to feel like the only way
and me, because this was for me,the only way I'm going to get
out of this is bring that personback.
I can be with my son.
(37:39):
I'm going to get out of this isbring that person back.
I can be with my son.
I'm going to be okay.
So it really depends on whichplace you are in that process,
how soon after the loss is.
But understand that it's anatural, normal thing.
Sometimes we have experienceslike I don't want to go outside
or I don't want to go to shulDifferent things, synagogue.
Sometimes there are things thatwe're doing or thinking or
feeling that might feel foreignbecause we've never done it
(38:00):
before and so, understanding,figuring out, which is the
natural process, versus am Istuck somewhere?
And I think that might be, youknow.
So number one is we get throughit.
Number two is, if we don't havethe people helping us, find
them Easy said, I know it'seasily said, but there are
organizations or ways for us toget help.
(38:21):
And also, if we're gettingstuck somewhere, figure out if
that means you need somethingmore.
You need to talk to somebody orfind your own resources,
self-help books that are outthere to read, things that will
help lighten the load for us.
But if it feels like it's been areally long time it's been
years and you noticed you'restuck and I've heard, not just
(38:43):
as a therapist but peoplesharing with me, like this
person never got through thatloss.
So important, because thepeople in your life need you to
be healthy, need to be okay.
They also need to see that youcan go through grief and go
through and get come out of it.
They don't need you to pretendit never happened but there is a
way through and there'sresources, there's faith and
(39:06):
there's help and know that it'spossible.
And I sit here as wanting to bethat example and I'm saying
everything I experience in lifeand I will experience, I'm going
to do just fine and it'll begreat.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
But I know that I've been through this and there was
a way through, there was a lightyou know, at the end, I think
that you're such a beautifulexample because of all the
strength and hope that you share, all the chizuk that you're
able to give, but at the sametime, your voice cracked more
than once, I think and it's likewhat is it like 21 years?
(39:41):
Which shows that you neverforgot your son.
You still think about him, youstill love him, you still miss
him, but you're okay, and Ithink that's those are the two
things that people really needto hear.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Absolutely, and it's, it's, it should be that we, you
know, refer back to things thathappen in life and have some
emotion.
It doesn't mean we shouldn'tyou know, we work with people,
anxiety or things you don't wantto like get rid of the anxiety
we're not looking to like makeyou non-anxious.
Anxiety has a purpose, but I'msaying yeah, but it doesn't
overwhelm me, and it's momentsin time, and it's not often I go
(40:14):
to his grave so I absolutely amin tears.
It's not often, and it's notbecause I've stuffed it
somewhere deep down in some partof my body and I've never
looked at it.
I've looked at the face andI've been with it, but I've also
come through it.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Come through it Wow, unbelievable.
Okay, well, thank you so somuch for coming on.
Hashem should continue to giveyou the strength that you need,
and you should continue tostrengthen others, and I really
appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Thank you, I really appreciate this opportunity.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
You've just listened to an episode of the Grief
Journey Podcast with MiriamRibiat, brought to you by Mayrim
.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
(41:13):
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us atrelieffromgriefatmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
Welcome to the Grief Journey Podcast, hosted by Mrs
Miriam Ribiat and brought to youby Merim.
Merim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by Eloi Nishmas,nechama Liba and Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:23):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nahamaLiba, passed away.
Merim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:44):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgriefatmayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Everybody, thank you so much for joining me here
today on the Grief Journey byMayrim podcast.
Everybody, thank you so muchfor joining me here today on the
Grief Journey by Maven podcast.
And today I'm very excited tointroduce to you Mrs Yaffa
Dykman, who is an LCSW.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Thank you so so much for coming on my pleasure and
thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yes, I'm very excited .
I know we spoke a lot, but I'mexcited to finally happen.
Okay, so I guess, how about ifwe start with you telling us
what you do and who youtypically work with, and all
about that?
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Absolutely so.
As you mentioned, I'm alicensed clinical social worker
psychotherapist.
I work both one day a week inperson in Brooklyn, and
otherwise I'm online.
I treat adults, and so part ofmy work is with people locally
and part of my work is workingwith Americans living overseas
expats living in all parts ofthe world.
(01:50):
I do that work with a groupcalled a group practice, called
the Truman Group, and one otherpart of my work is I work with
US military, both those inactive duty and veterans,
through an organization calledHeadstrong.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Wow, that's interesting, no.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Absolutely.
I enjoy it very much.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, that sounds very interesting.
Okay, so you specialize in AMDRand psychodynamic therapy, but
I guess I'm not really sure whatthese therapies are, how they
work.
Maybe you could explain that.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Sure, if you don't mind my sharing, you know, the
way I got to those therapies iswhen I graduated.
I finished graduate school andI was really looking to develop
my clinical skills because Ifelt like there was more I
needed to know, wanted to knowreally in that kind of work, and
so I turned to my graduateschool.
I heard they had a program incouples therapy and I was
(02:47):
thinking about really that areaof specialty and so I reached
out to the director of theprogram and he told me about it
and he also told me that theprogram took place on Saturday,
chavez.
So I decided obviously I wasn'tgoing to do that and so I.
But I asked him if he had anyother recommendations and he
told me about a program calledthe Training Institute for
Mental Health, which is aninstitute located in the city
(03:10):
and they had a two-yearfellowship program,
certification in couple therapy,and it's oriented toward more
psychodynamic work and I reallytook to that kind of work.
I also had instructors,supervisors, that I really
(03:36):
learned a lot from and continuedto learn from post my
graduation from that program.
Psychodynamic work is a lotabout dealing with, working with
the subconscious, getting toknow ourselves better on a
deeper level.
You know, understanding why wedo what we do, which gives us a
lot more agency in our lives andallows us to really get to
decide more consciously.
You know what we want to do andI'm really drawn to the deeper
(03:56):
work and understanding thingsbetter and people better,
helping people understandthemselves better, and so this
really really spoke to me and sothat's really a big part of how
I work.
It also, just to add to that,it also looks a lot at
relationships and how earlyrelationships are and how that
other later relationshipsdevelop out.
You know as a result of whatearly relationships look like.
(04:19):
That's what we call objectrelations.
So that's also a part of thework I do, and you know I work
with clients.
As I mentioned in the beginning, I work with things like
anxiety, depression, ptsd,post-traumatic stress disorder
and also things like grief andrelationship issues, because
those are, you know, those sortof things can come also hand in
hand, so it's not necessarilyone exclusive of the others.
So that's where you know therelationship piece comes in,
(04:43):
that I do that kind of work.
I do a little bit of some of mywork as couples, but a lot of
my work is individual, and sobecause I was seeing more
individuals in clinic settingwhere I was working before I
went into private practice, Ireally I noticed I was doing a
lot more work with trauma Earlychildhood, you know, abuse,
sexual abuse, differentdifficulties in childhood and
(05:11):
which I was really inclinedtowards working in that way and
I realized I really wanted toalso strengthen my ability to
work with trauma.
And so that's when I heard aboutEMDR and EMDR, which stands for
eye movement, desensitizationand reprocessing, so that was
the therapy I trained in and Ibecame certified in it and I
apply it, of course, workingwith people with trauma.
But it's you know, just youknow.
I should explain a little bitabout it, a little more about
(05:34):
what that approach is.
Does that would that interestpeople, perhaps?
So yeah, so EMDR, which Ibelieve was discovered by Franzi
and Shapiro in the 1980s, wasreally an approach that
originally was about rapid eyemovement and this idea that when
we sleep and our eyes go backand forth and ram, we are able
(05:55):
to process through things,resolve things from our day.
It's since developed into whatwe do is also something called
bilateral stimulation, which istapping, and there are many ways
that people do this kind ofwork.
But the idea was is that we cansometimes get stuck when we
experience a trauma, and EMDR isable to help people move beyond
that place of stuckness andaccess more of their adaptive
(06:18):
thinking, and so it's really aquicker-moving it can really
it's very versatile.
So, even though it originallystarted as a trauma-based
therapy, now we were using itwith anxiety, ocd, depression,
phobias, general, or justmindsets or ways that people
(06:39):
think about themselves and theworld that we can sort of what
does that mean when you say toaccess more of their adaptive
thinking?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
What's adaptive thinking?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
So when you're in a space of trauma, you're going to
go into fight, flight freeze.
There's also fawn mode, soyou're really operating from a
place of a danger versus fromyour cognitive thinking part of
your brain.
And so when we access bothparts of the brain we're able to
give ourselves that way of alsothinking about things.
(07:11):
So it's ability to kind of tapinto both and not just live from
a place of, you know, I'm indanger because people with PTSD
it's like they're you know it'shypervigilance and they're
feeling a lot of I'm still inthat space of danger, as if the
fire alarms are going off butthere's no fire.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So then, how do you decide if someone needs more
EMDR or more psychodynamictherapy?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
So really good question and they get weaved
together.
And what I really appreciateabout the training that I did
was that there was that idea oflike EMDR is not the solution
for everybody, for everything,but rather one thing we can use
in that in a way to help people.
And so I really look at whatthe client is bringing up and,
based on what I'm noticing andseeing, I will introduce EMDR, I
(07:59):
will bring in psychodynamictherapy, because psychodynamic
therapy is very thorough.
I'm looking at also what is theperson representing, how the
person is presenting themselves,and of course that enters into
a space of somatic therapy whichI have not trained in yet.
But so you know, it reallydepends on what the client is
bringing up.
And I do.
I use both together usually.
But EMDR when I'm doing it Ican use it like sort of straight
(08:23):
EMDR, but there are times whereyou know I want to be able to
use also psychodynamic therapy.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
So it's really seeing where the client is at and
seeing what their needs are inthat moment.
Do you tell them what you'redoing or it's not the type of
thing that they have to know?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
You just feel you go with the flow.
I think it's so important,especially for trauma clients,
to really, you know, be incharge of that for themselves.
So I will say you know, I havea therapy and that's the outset
of our sessions.
Here's some of the things thatI do to help people in
situations that you are, youknow, things you've experienced.
So, yeah, I very much informthem.
I won't tell them I'm doingpsychodynamic therapy now, but
(09:02):
EMDR is a little different.
So I want people to feelcomfortable you know and
understand what it is and alsosay consent and say I'm good
with that, I'm not good withthat.
It's up to them.
They need to be in charge andthey need to be in control,
because oftentimes trauma comeswith losing that part, losing
control.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Right, wow, okay, so let me ask you like this from
well, okay, we didn't reallytalk about your story at all.
You mind sharing a little bitabout your own personal loss?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you know I'm thinkingcontrol.
As I say it, I'm like that sortof came into my reference of
mine.
So I was in graduate school.
I had two young children aboutthree and six years old a little
younger at that time and I hadthen had a third child.
A third son was born and as Iwas doing my work and parenting
(09:55):
all at the same time being aspouse this was everything was
developing quite normally.
Everything was developing quitenormally, and so was my son
until he was five months old.
And at five months old hestopped eating, he stopped
sleeping, he would be up allnight crying and I realized
something was wrong with him andI went repeatedly to the
(10:17):
pediatrician and I would say tothem something's wrong with my
son.
I don't know what it is, butplease, you know, we figure this
out.
And each time I would be therefive, ten minutes, whatever it
was, he'd be sitting therequietly, calmly, like everything
was fine, and I would get senthome.
We don't see anything, he'sfine.
Until one day my mother wasvisiting our home and she was
holding him and she noticed likesomething on the side.
(10:38):
She felt like a bump on hisside.
So we had not felt it before.
But I went right back to thedoctor and I said there's
something here and the doctorsaid you should take him for a
sonogram.
So we went off to the hospitaland did the sonogram and they
basically told us that he had atumor and that basically he had
(11:03):
one of three possible kinds oftumors.
It's a kidney tumor and thefirst one would be was Wilms,
which is supposedly more commonin children, if there's a kidney
tumor, and highly treatable.
The second possibility issomething called clear cell
sarcoma which is a little harderto treat I don't know about now
because this was over 20 yearsago and the third one was
(11:26):
something called rhabdoid tumorof the kidney which is extremely
rare.
I was just looking up thestatistics one in a million,
something in the millions, lessthan 100 diagnosed in America
and the United States in a year.
Really rare and reallyaggressive, very hard to treat
and even if one gets treated forit and succeeds at that, it
could also, if they relapse,it's, it's, there's not much to
(11:48):
be done.
So we had those threepossibilities sitting with us at
the time.
You know it was obviouslydevastating but but hopeful,
because he's by his wombs andwe'll.
We'll get through this Um, butthe, the prognosis, they.
They gave us the diagnosis andthey told us that he had
rhabdoid.
That's the third kind.
(12:08):
The third kind, the rare andaggressive kidney tumor, the
worst you'd want to have.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Like mamish from one minute to the next.
Yeah, like he was just turnedupside down.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Absolutely, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Wow, so he went through treatment anyways, I
guess.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
At that point.
So the good thing was that wewere questioning where should we
treat him?
Do we take him to anotherhospital, another state, and we
have two young children at home?
We really didn't want to, butthe doctor who was going to
treat him was discussingprotocol, with consulting with
other doctors who would treatthis, and she also had
successfully treated one out ofa set of twins with this
(12:50):
diagnosis.
So there was like some hopethere, um for us with our son's
case.
His, his tumor had grown somuch that it was pushing on his
lungs and his breathing wascompromised at that point
already, and what they had to dois they had to first shrink the
tumor, remove the tumor, andthen they basically did chemo,
(13:13):
they did radiation and they didsomething called an autologous
stem cell transplant Whoa, totry to.
They were going to be asaggressive as they could be with
it because of theaggressiveness of the tumor.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Wow, Wow.
And then he was 14 months whenhe was lifted.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
you said yeah, I mean , you know, obviously we were
hopeful, you know we reallybelieved that any point, you
know, things can turn around,everything could to be better,
but we, we brought him home andthen he relapsed.
He went back, he had he wasbehaving a little bit oddly and
I brought him back and found outthat he had that he was, you
(13:54):
know, sick and they told usbasically take him to hospice,
there's nothing we can do.
But interesting thing is thatwhen he was in hospital in his
last few weeks of his life,spotted in the hospital a
professor of mine who had beenin graduate school, who actually
was a hospice.
He taught about hospice and Isaw him and I went over to him,
(14:15):
I told him my story and he saidyou'd love to come see my son
and he did.
And I remember asking him like,can kids or people come out of
hospice?
At that point he's like, yeah,can, can kids or people come out
of hospice?
At that point he's like, yeah,it actually it happens.
And so, like you get therenewed hope you know, sometimes
you're like, okay, this, youknow things will get better, um,
things will be okay.
And so, um, but that wasn't, itwasn't what it was going to be
(14:37):
Um so a few weeks later.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Is it true that people come out of hospice?
I mean if someone's gettingtreated.
I mean if someone's gettingtreated hospice won't even
accept them.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Maybe, I'm sorry, maybe.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Maybe it changed, maybe it's different.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah, I don't know.
I guess someone's life healthcan turn around, so you know.
That's why you know we nevergave up.
We did everything that wasrecommended to us, whether it
was medical, whether it was, youknow, spiritual, like we just
went with.
We were going to fight this tothe last and we did.
And so you know he survived for14 months.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Wow, wow, I can't even imagine, I don't know, that
baby For the listeners.
I saw a picture of that baby.
He's a precious little looking,you know, adorable baby.
So I don't even I think it's.
I don't know, I don't know whatto say.
I know that you have a verypowerful message of Amuna, so
maybe we could talk about that.
Yeah, I guess also the questiona little bit would be is like
(15:41):
if you think that message looksdifferent for someone newly
bereaved and someone that's beengrieving for many years.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Right, and if you don't mind to take a step back
from that, because I think faithlooks different before you go
through something like this.
Faith looks different while yougo through something like this,
and faith looks different afteryou go through something like
this.
And um, and I think you know itcomes to my mind and recently I
(16:08):
was thinking about this is thatwhen you're in the ouch moment
and we know those feelingssometimes it just means getting
your foot into a bed.
I don't know if you've ever hadthat experience where you're
just banging against metal andyou're like, ah, those moments,
like you just you know, you'rejust caught up in the pain and I
(16:30):
think it's shaky.
It gets shaken while we're inthese, go through these things,
and then not only while we're inthem, but after we're in them.
And so I'll remember,particularly for me and I think
this is probably true for a lotof people, if not all people
that first year post loss wassuch a hard one, emotionally and
also religiously.
I mean, I didn't stop believing.
I don't think that I stoppedpracticing what I do, but I
(16:53):
certainly it was harder to findthat support and that strength,
even though there were momentswhere, like it was quite clear
in there, but there were alsomoments I was like why did you
do this to me?
Like why in the world would youwant something like this to
happen, and why a child and allthe things that make so much
sense when you're in that, inthat pain.
(17:15):
So my message and what Ibelieve now came with time and
in different, in different waysthat you know that allow me now
to um, to be in a differentplace with it.
Um.
So for those people who arelike, hey, you know, you know I
I didn't come out and like, yeah, god, you did this is fine, I
(17:36):
can accept it, it's your willLike that was a journey to be
able to like come out and beperhaps stronger.
I believe today I'm a strongerperson in that, stronger in
different ways, but it wasn't,it didn't come right away.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
And I think that for any bereaved parents listening
to this, it's very important tohear that that the relationship
with Hashem is going to change.
And even if you have arelationship with Hashem right
now that's such a like morepainful relationship, it doesn't
mean that they're going to bein that pain forever.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Absolutely.
And what's so key and core hereis how we go about the healing.
And you know I'm going to justreference the work I do.
In fact, just thinking aboutwork I was doing just this
morning, you know, one of thethings I learned about PTSD and
this was, you know, I trained inanother therapy I didn't
mention, called STARIN-ST, whichstands for skills, training and
effective and interpersonalregulation, narrative
(18:29):
storytelling.
A whole bunch of words thatmight not mean anything to
people but, and also totherapists like three out of
four therapists I mentioned to,they don't know what it is.
Wow, yeah, it was on the VAwebsite and for a while it may
still be.
And it's.
I think it's similar to TF-CBTtrauma-focused cognitive
behavioral therapy which is more, I think, geared towards
(18:50):
children.
I work with children so I don'tuse that modality, but it's
basically a two-part therapy,combining both cognitive
behavioral therapy andattachment theory, which is what
I like about it because itworks both levels, like more the
CBT, maybe more oriented to thepresent, you know, helping us
feel better in the moment, andthen also oriented towards the
(19:12):
past, attachment, earlierrelationships.
And so why do I mentionstearantestes?
Because when I learned about it, one of the things they talk
about is that PTSD andpost-trauma symptoms will come
more likely when people don'thave the support they talk about
is that PTSD and post-traumasymptoms will come more likely
when people don't have thesupport they need when they go
through something.
And so I'm just againreferencing someone I was
speaking to.
You know, in a therapy setting,where this is you know how much
(19:35):
so especially, we talk aboutchildren who are physically
abused.
The message sometimes given tothem is it was your fault, you
made a mistake.
You know.
Given to them is it was yourfault, you made a mistake, you
know you were wrong, whatever itis, and that makes it that much
harder for us to step out ofthose situations and heal from
it, versus if we have peoplearound us throughout the process
.
When we come to that point, wewant to share it or post the
(20:00):
experience that saved us, thatwas awful, that was a horrible
thing you went through, andwhatever words they use.
So I think that what's importantfor people, listeners and
people to realize is howimportant we have to find those
people and have that communityand the family, of course, if we
can have it.
You know, fortunately I hadsupport from family, from
(20:20):
neighbors, from community, fromorganizations you know you have,
you need that behind us.
If we can't, we don't have it.
Find it Wonderful organizationslike Mayrim you know there are
quite a few more that will bethere and they may not take away
the pain but they certainlymake it more manageable and
tolerable.
Carry you through.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
So let me ask you like this, because it's true
that it's important to find it,but some people might have it
and just don't know how tocommunicate their needs, so they
feel like they're not beingsupported, when really, if they
would be in a place where theycould say this is what I need,
it would make such a differenceA hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
I think one of the challenges also for those of us
in these situations is we don'twant to take of.
The challenges also for thoseof us in these situations is we
don't want to take.
Some of us I might say womenmore than men, possibly, but I'm
not going to say for sure, Ihaven't studied this Maybe
people who are of Jewish faith,of other faiths.
We're givers, we're a communityof givers, and for those that
(21:22):
come from that place, there maybe psychological reasons as well
.
I'm not going to say that thatdoesn't occur as well, but I'm
saying we may come from a placeof I can't take, I need to give,
and it's such a struggle.
I will tell you, and I'mgrateful for one of those people
who showed up in my lifethrough an organization and sent
me this thing I have itsomewhere right up of why it's
okay to take in these situations.
I haven't forgotten it becauseit really kind of took me over
(21:42):
that hump, but it's what we haveto do.
So, yeah, it's hard tocommunicate.
Well, if that's a pattern foryou, you might want to look at
that, maybe even with atherapist.
It doesn't have to be, but youknow.
So if we have a hard timeasking for what we want, we need
to figure out that.
We also have to understand thatthis is our time, where we're
giving others the opportunity toget and sometimes giving others
(22:08):
the opportunity to get thatsometimes we can allow others to
be in that role because that'simportant, maybe for them and
maybe for us.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
This is what we need to be doing, Right.
I like that point that maybeit's important for them because
maybe also like if they're closeenough to they're also
struggling with the loss butthey don't quite know what to do
with it, and this gives them anopportunity to do something
with their own pain that isn'tas severe as the actual bereaved
parent.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Right and we don't even realize how valuable it
becomes, Like those things thatpeople do for you, even though
you hesitate and you resist itagain, make so much of a
difference, and how we getthrough the meals that people
make, the babysitting that theydo, you know, the carpooling,
the different ways that peoplecan step up.
That is a win-win because youget what you need because you
(22:50):
have no other choice.
You can't do it all and youalso give an opportunity for
someone else to feel like I'mdoing something to this person
and I know that's reallyimportant for them.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And I care about that .
Right right, wow.
So was there any um likespecific pastime or to feel, or
something that like helped youduring this time?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
So during the, the, the illness, versus during after
, is it okay if I share on bothends?
Yes, please, okay.
So I think what was was veryhelpful I don't want to say most
because I'm not sure, I haven'tmeasured but what was very
helpful for me and has been inmy life through challenging
times is music, and I'm surethat I'm like the first person
(23:35):
on the planet to say that.
Not really, I think that youknow it sort of lifts me, lifts
my soul, it's just somethingabout it.
It became like again one ofthose like flotation devices,
something I could hold on to.
So that was very helpful.
Obviously, tehillim, psalms,things like that can really do a
(23:57):
lot.
Sometimes it's not, sometimesyou're like I can't, you know,
and sometimes it's just Ryan.
So that's okay, to sometimeswant that and sometimes not want
that.
I think that's really also, atleast for me.
I think that's a really naturalthing in these types of moments
.
So music was really powerfuland helpful.
I think afterwards it was moreabout mindset and the ideas and
(24:21):
thoughts that helped me see myexperience differently.
I think one of the things that alot of people can be challenged
by and I think it makes a lotof sense, is thinking about
their child in.
Oh now he's one years old.
He would have been one, hewould have been 13.
He would have been graduatingfrom high school.
I don't look at, I don't thinkabout that, and not because I'm,
(24:44):
you know, shining my face awayfrom it, but because I think of
each one of us.
We don't have the sameexpiration date.
We all come into this world andleave at different points in
times, and I think what's what I?
One of the ways that I look atthis experience, is that we have
a mission and that we do thatmission, and that's really what
(25:07):
we're.
You know how I look at, youknow the world, and so I mean, I
think that's consistent withTorah, with Jewish concepts, I
imagine that's consistent withother religions.
And I think about could youimagine if someone knocked on
your door today and said to youreally secretly I have something
you can only do and I havegoing to give you all the you're
on a mission.
You have something important todo in this world, accomplish,
(25:29):
and I'm going to give you allthe tools you need to do it and
the challenges that are going tocome with it.
I mean, you know, I don't wantto reference.
I'm not sure referencing.
You know there are movies andshows and talking about missions
and how important that personcan feel and things like that.
But you're the only one who cando this and you're gonna get
those things and I look at it asthat.
I don't look at it as my son.
He died early.
(25:50):
You know it's a tragedy.
I look at it as he's came for apurpose and he did his purpose
and both myself and my husbandlook at it as we didn't lose all
those years of his life.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
We gained 14 months with a child, a special child,
because it's better to havethose 14 months with him than
not have had him at all?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Right, I mean, there's a what a phrase?
Is it better to lose love andlose?
You know, of course we don'twant the 14 months.
Of course we want a longermarriage.
Of course we want our kids tobe around.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Of course we want our parents, our siblings, all that
, wow, wow.
That's very special.
It's very special to like havethat attitude for all these
years.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
And it's time, meaning I didn't have that and
wake up with it.
The day after my son passed.
I wake up to see an empty criband clothing that was never
going to be worn by him again.
So it's time.
There is so much and a sunthat's shining that shouldn't be
shining because our world'sfalling apart, but it's time and
(26:54):
it's going out there andreading things and speaking to
people and taking in information.
I think how we look at things isreally how we can exist and
feel in the world.
And I'll add there's a pictureI saw and I've mentioned this to
a number of people over theyears.
It was a painting and I don'tknow where it is because I'd
(27:16):
take a photo of it and put it onmy phone right now but it was a
picture of trees, lots of trees, and it was like a forest and
somehow you could see littlesparks of light coming through.
And sometimes, when I'm goingthrough an experience in life, I
think to myself do I want tolook at the trees or do I want
to look at light?
Because I choose what I look at, I choose how I see things in
(27:38):
life, and that's you know, andthat kind of makes a difference.
And again, that's one otherthinking thing.
I can't I'm giving it there,because maybe somebody will say
I relate to that, maybe 15people say I don't relate to
that.
But there are others.
There are other ways that wecan pull in comfort, information
that gives us support and makesit easier for us to go through
(28:01):
life.
If I don't, if you don't mind,I wanna just add one other thing
to that.
I think sometimes I also look atlife from a what is an optical
illusion.
There's the picture.
You can see two pictures, right?
Is that what it is?
Optical illusion?
It's been a while since I'veused the term.
Is that where?
you can see the goblets, or youcan see the woman's face, right,
(28:23):
I think that's also similarlyhere is that I don't look at
this world as everything we seeand everything is the physical
stuff.
Then, when you don't have achild, live longer, and you
don't have the car you want andyou don't have all the physical
things, the milestones andphysical things, you only see
(28:45):
that one picture.
The pain is so much greater.
But what you recognize thatthis is part of something bigger
and greater in a plan, and youstart to if you have a faith, of
course and I'm not, you knoweverybody's going to and then
they have to find their way ofthinking and seeing this.
They've seen things, but thenit changes for you.
You have this other perspective.
(29:05):
That's like I'm part ofsomething bigger and there's a
spiritual purpose, there's a,there's a meaning to all this.
It's it's like I have to dothat sometimes, right, when
someone hurts you, it's likethat person hurt me.
No, but there's somethinggreater going on here.
There's something I can focuson the person or I can focus on.
You know that this is part of abigger plan and that there's a
(29:27):
reason I'm in this moment.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Wow, I think that's so nice.
That's like such a good visual.
I mean, for me it's such a goodvisual.
I'm assuming, like you saidbefore, some people might not
relate to it, but somethingtells me a lot of people will,
and so let me ask you this fromyour perspective, as both a
professional and as someone thatyou know, a parent that went
through a loss is there anythingthat you feel is like the most
(29:54):
misunderstood thing about grief?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
misunderstood thing about grief.
It's a good, it's a really goodquestion and it's hard to go
with.
See, as a therapist I'm likemost because that's you know,
that's a lot of you know.
That kind of.
It's hard for me to say youknow most it's I think it would.
I can think of things that docome to mind, but they're
probably you know, if I thoughtbroadly or I went back into
referencing things, I might havemore of an answer that's like
(30:24):
yeah, that's this feels like it.
So I'm going to say what comesto my mind at the moment.
I think it's something that Iimagine a lot of other people
will say.
Sometimes it's the expectationsof you know what it's going to
look like.
You know, and that there's aspecific timeline and a specific
(30:46):
order of loss and we know of,you know in Green's, how it's
going to play out.
You know Elizabeth CooperRoss's work on that.
It's like that there is such a.
It can be so up and down itcould be.
It shows up in different waysin different people and that
sometimes we have expectationsof others or expectations of
(31:06):
ourselves because we think youknow, this is what it looks like
.
It looks like A when it canlook like A, b, c, d, e, f, g,
and then those can.
It can look like G and thenbecome A.
So I think it's you know, thatthere is one way that this thing
plays out.
It's different, for my husbandand I had different experience
with it.
I think we're mostly on thesame page and we fortunately
didn't conflict about it.
(31:27):
But I'm saying we could see itdifferently, we could experience
it differently, and so you know, I would say, if you're five,
10 years down the line and thisis still weighing deeply on you,
figure that out.
I mean, cause that's what Ifortunately it was a year or so,
and again, I don't rememberexactly how much, and I feel
grateful again because therewere resources that I pulled
into.
I wasn't in the same placenearly, and today I'm, you know,
(31:50):
a whole different place.
But it takes time.
We're different.
Someone takes two, three yearsOkay, that's, that's what they
need.
Seven, eight months, that'swhat they need.
But if we're finding ourselvesstuck somewhere, if we're
finding ourselves like feelingguilty or shame, or you know
something last conversationsrelationship was complicated we
might want to get underneath it,because that's the thoughts,
(32:10):
the beliefs that we may getstuck with, that accompany that
experience that we might be ableto move further from if we look
a little bit closer at it.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
I guess all that is one of the reasons why
everyone's grief journey is sodifferent, because it really
does depend on what yourrelationship was like and what
your marriage is like and ifyou're divorced, and if I mean
there's so many, you know, ifs,ifs and ifs.
So I guess that's why, besidesfor the actual loss, there's so
many other things that are goingto really make that journey.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Absolutely, and I'm glad you're sharing that because
it certainly resonates for me.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
And the way you say it just makes yeah, makes you
know, makes it even clearer.
Were there ever things?
Speaker 3 (32:57):
that people said to you that they, like you know,
meant with good intentions butthey were really hurtful.
You know it's interesting.
I remember more the actionswere difficult, um, than the
words, and I know those existand I know there are things you
specifically people will say youknow, especially if you're a
faith, a person of faith, youknow God only challenges the
people who are, you know, arestrong, or, um, you know, uh,
are you know, are strong, or youknow.
(33:19):
They're definitely the moretypical things I think we hear.
I don't remember so muchhearing those.
I do remember ways that peopletry to show up.
That was painful, Like, I thinkone thing is people.
I think either extreme tends tobe challenging, like people just
(33:39):
disappearing from your life.
It's kind of like where are youand I know I'm going through
something difficult, but I wantyou to be in my life still or
people showing up daily andwanting to know what's happening
and wanting to be there andyour life is so upside down you
just want to breathe.
So I think being too present orbeing too absent is something
that can really challenge us.
I think, at least for myself inthis kind of situation.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Right.
I guess that's wherecommunication also comes in,
like if someone is showing upand showing up and it's too much
, like you kind of have to say,because they think they're doing
something good for you.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
You're right, and it's so hard because you're
feeling so hurt and the lastthing you want to do is hurt
somebody, and that's a wholeother window of conversation for
therapists is, like you know,assertiveness.
How do you do?
Because a lot of us don't wantto say no and don't want to make
people feel that, and there's awhole way that we might.
What are we subconsciouslythinking about when we do say no
?
Like our bodies might be, likeI'm becoming evil, I'm becoming
(34:35):
that mean person or someone else.
So there's a lot that can bedelved into over there.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah Well, you know, guilt is the best friend of many
, so I guess you know For sure.
What did I want to ask you?
I wanted to ask you, yeah, alot of times you know, people
will call me up and say to me soyou know, my cousin, my
neighbor, my so-and-so, whateverit is, just lost a child.
What could I say to them?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
So I guess I'm curious what you would answer to
that if someone would ask thatyeah, it's first of all so
thoughtful and they want to help.
I will not say there's one rulethat fits for everybody,
because we're used to uniqueindividual in terms of what we
need.
I you know I hear this writtenand said a lot over time be
specific.
Don't just say what can I do,but say something that you know
that might person might need.
(35:20):
I'm going to bring you dinnerone day, what day works for you.
I'm going to help with yourchildren.
You know what can I do.
So you know and I'll, and maybeyou know you don't want to push
on them Like you have to takemy dinner on Monday night when
you really don't want to eatthat on Monday night.
So saying, but being, you know,being there and in a way that
(35:41):
really is going to be helpful tothem, being specific about what
you can do, I the things thatreally you know struck me as
people just coming to a hospitaland saying you know, asking, of
course you know if they cancome and bringing a soup,
writing a letter.
Then those days it was morewriting letters.
Obviously, texts are much morecommon nowadays, but just saying
those messages, just lettingthe person know you're there,
(36:04):
that you care, but not being intheir face, not invading their
privacy.
And, of course, find out whothe people are who are
organizing things for them,because sometimes there's key
people that those people want tobe in communication with,
because it's easier to have twopeople versus 25 people reaching
out, right, so maybe, hey,someone organizing this, I want
(36:26):
to help you those sorts ofthings right, that's a good
point to find out who, like, themain organizers are.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
I never thought of that.
Well, okay, so I guess myquestion I you know last, my
leading off question is ifsomeone right now is listening
and they're like in the depthsof grief, what would you want to
leave them with?
Or even if someone it's not arecent loss and they're still
feel like their struggle is toomuch.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah, you know, I think some of that's part of
what I've shared perhaps isthere, you know.
I think it depends on wherethey are in that point.
But grief is normal, grief ishealthy.
Unfortunately, for a veryunfortunate, tragic situation,
sometimes it's for an adult thatlived to the 99 years old and
118, whatever it could be, it'sstill grief.
(37:17):
And 118, whatever it could be,it's still grief.
It's real and it's part of whatwe go through and it can be.
We can get through it.
There is going to be.
It's going to reduce.
In the deepest moments it'sgoing to feel like the only way
and me, because this was for me,the only way I'm going to get
out of this is bring that personback.
I can be with my son.
(37:39):
I'm going to get out of this isbring that person back.
I can be with my son.
I'm going to be okay.
So it really depends on whichplace you are in that process,
how soon after the loss is.
But understand that it's anatural, normal thing.
Sometimes we have experienceslike I don't want to go outside
or I don't want to go to shulDifferent things, synagogue.
Sometimes there are things thatwe're doing or thinking or
feeling that might feel foreignbecause we've never done it
(38:00):
before and so, understanding,figuring out, which is the
natural process, versus am Istuck somewhere?
And I think that might be, youknow.
So number one is we get throughit.
Number two is, if we don't havethe people helping us, find
them Easy said, I know it'seasily said, but there are
organizations or ways for us toget help.
(38:21):
And also, if we're gettingstuck somewhere, figure out if
that means you need somethingmore.
You need to talk to somebody orfind your own resources,
self-help books that are outthere to read, things that will
help lighten the load for us.
But if it feels like it's been areally long time it's been
years and you noticed you'restuck and I've heard, not just
(38:43):
as a therapist but peoplesharing with me, like this
person never got through thatloss.
So important, because thepeople in your life need you to
be healthy, need to be okay.
They also need to see that youcan go through grief and go
through and get come out of it.
They don't need you to pretendit never happened but there is a
way through and there'sresources, there's faith and
(39:06):
there's help and know that it'spossible.
And I sit here as wanting to bethat example and I'm saying
everything I experience in lifeand I will experience, I'm going
to do just fine and it'll begreat.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
But I know that I've been through this and there was
a way through, there was a lightyou know, at the end, I think
that you're such a beautifulexample because of all the
strength and hope that you share, all the chizuk that you're
able to give, but at the sametime, your voice cracked more
than once, I think and it's likewhat is it like 21 years?
(39:41):
Which shows that you neverforgot your son.
You still think about him, youstill love him, you still miss
him, but you're okay, and Ithink that's those are the two
things that people really needto hear.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Absolutely, and it's, it's, it should be that we, you
know, refer back to things thathappen in life and have some
emotion.
It doesn't mean we shouldn'tyou know, we work with people,
anxiety or things you don't wantto like get rid of the anxiety
we're not looking to like makeyou non-anxious.
Anxiety has a purpose, but I'msaying yeah, but it doesn't
overwhelm me, and it's momentsin time, and it's not often I go
(40:14):
to his grave so I absolutely amin tears.
It's not often, and it's notbecause I've stuffed it
somewhere deep down in some partof my body and I've never
looked at it.
I've looked at the face andI've been with it, but I've also
come through it.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Come through it Wow, unbelievable.
Okay, well, thank you so somuch for coming on.
Hashem should continue to giveyou the strength that you need,
and you should continue tostrengthen others, and I really
appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Thank you, I really appreciate this opportunity.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
You've just listened to an episode of the Grief
Journey Podcast with MiriamRibiat, brought to you by Mayrim
.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
(41:13):
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us atrelieffromgriefatmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
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