Inefficiency is the biggest challenge facing the window and door industry today, but AI solutions can help companies automate repetitive tasks and respond to customers faster.
The Industry Insiders Podcast, powered by Paradigm, is where leaders across the industry share how they’re navigating change, building stronger businesses, and setting the pace for what’s next.
Hosted by John Wheeler, a 25-year veteran of building materials and software and sales technician at Paradigm, with season 1 guest co-host Stefanie Couch, founder of Grit Blueprint, a lifelong industry insider and growth strategist, the show takes you inside the strategies, tools, and ideas reshaping how windows and doors get sold, delivered, and experienced.
You’ll hear from manufacturers, dealers, and innovators across the supply chain, offering real-world lessons you can apply to your own business.
In this eye-opening conversation and the premiere episode of the Industry Insiders Podcast, we dive into the most pressing challenges facing our industry today.
• Automating repetitive tasks allows valuable veteran employees to focus on what they do best
• Capturing the knowledge of retiring industry veterans is essential for training the next generation
• Companies are 21 times more likely to convert leads when responding within 5 minutes
• Digital transformation works best when tackling one challenge at a time rather than everything at once
• Costly mistakes highlight why automation matters
• The window and door industry has unique complexities that make knowledge transfer challenging
• AI adoption creates a competitive advantage that will be difficult for late adopters to overcome
• Looking forward, the industry must embrace efficiency through technology while preserving human expertise
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Wheeler (00:00):
Inefficiency is the biggest problem, I hear, and
it's across the board.
There's so many things that youcan either automate or turn
five buttons into one.
Stefanie Couch (00:09):
If we have softwares that can help us quote
quicker, sell quicker, you're21 times more likely to convert
something.
If you respond within fiveminutes With AI, you can at
least send an email or a textsaying hey, I got it, I'm
working on it.
John Wheeler (00:23):
They want to do this digital transformation, but
they get 10 things from everydepartment.
It's impossible for anybody todo that.
You teach it just one thing ata time Solve one challenge,
identify it, solve it, iterateand repeat the process.
If you see or hear a storyabout somebody that was here
where you are and now they'reover here, I think that just
helps everybody get better.
(00:44):
Other people have had thesechallenges.
Here's how they overcame it.
Stefanie Couch (00:47):
It is amazing, when you start to talk to people
, what you find out.
John Wheeler (00:52):
Welcome to the Paradigm Industry Insiders
podcast, where real people sharereal stories about what's
happening with doors, windows,millwork and life.
I'm John Wheeler and, alongwith my co-hosts, we sit down
with your peers who are movingour industry forward.
These are honest conversationspacked with practical insights
and lessons you can take andbring value to your team.
(01:13):
Here's today's conversation.
Stefanie Couch (01:17):
Welcome to the Paradigm Industry Insiders
podcast, where we tell thestories of the people, products
and technology in the window anddoor industry.
I'm your guest host, StephanieCouch, with Grit Blueprint, and
I'm excited to be here today forthe first episode of this
podcast with my friend and we'veworked together on many
projects.
John Wheeler, you are a salestechnician at Paradigm.
(01:40):
Welcome to the show, Thanks.
John Wheeler (01:42):
Very excited.
Stefanie Couch (01:43):
And we are going to be talking with a lot of
people over the next few weeksabout what's happening in our
industry, highlighting them,highlighting their stories,
talking about AI, all the coolstuff that's coming out, and we
talk a lot about this.
We're both really into AI andwe work with a lot of people and
projects, but historically, ourindustry has not really been
known for being a superinnovative place.
(02:05):
What do you think about what'shappening in AI and technology
right now and how people areactually going to adopt it in
the window and door space?
John Wheeler (02:15):
It's an interesting question because we
are we're slow to change andadopt things.
You know there's lots of Excel.
I think everybody runs to Excelfirst, which is totally fine to
help with, like a proof ofconcept.
But if you think about a lot ofthe jobs that are in the
industry you think of, like aproduction scheduler or a
shipping route manager or evensome of the sales teams I think
(02:37):
starting to automate some ofthose things that can be
automated and let those becausethere's a a lot of veterans that
you know they're key pieces Ijust named you know some of them
.
Their role is so essential butthey're, you know, doing a lot
of remedial tasks and they'redoing a lot of day-to-day stuff,
and so automating the thingsthat can be and then letting
(02:58):
those people be excellent atwhat they're doing give them
more value back.
Stefanie Couch (03:05):
Yeah, and it's scary to me that so many of
those people who are runningbasically the entire business
they're getting close toretirement as well.
So how do we capture thatinformation that they have over
20 years, 30 years in theindustry and then distribute
that, via AI or something else,to the next generation of
leaders that come in?
I think about that a lot.
It keeps me up at night.
John Wheeler (03:24):
I think that's where you know I did a lot of
learning on AI recently and youtalk about prompting and you can
teach it the things.
And the way I like to thinkabout it is, you know, if you
hired a new person, let's saythey're straight out of college
and they want to go intologistics or something they're
going to know you, to know thebasics of logistics, but you
(03:45):
have to teach them.
Here's our routes, here's ourtrucks, here's what they look
like, here's what the drivers do, here's our customer list.
And you just have to basicallyteach it the same things and the
fundamentals of it and give itthat context.
Once it has that, that's whereit really becomes really cool.
Stefanie Couch (04:03):
The issue is there's so much context Because
if you try to train someone ondoors and you were in Georgia
when I worked in two-stepdistribution and then in the
dealer channel, I grew up inGeorgia I thought I knew a lot
about doors I did.
Then I moved to Texas and Ithought I knew a lot about doors
and I didn't, because they dothings totally different.
(04:24):
No one in Texas has ever heardof a split jam.
They don't do that there.
Or California, that's not athing, but that's what 99% of
the doors in Georgia were, soit's really interesting how much
there is to train if you weregoing to build out.
You know, ben and I have workedon some tools like that and
there's so much detail into it,which is why it is so hard to
train someone anyone right nowit is.
(04:52):
It takes years.
I mean, it's taken me so longto know the things I know and to
try to teach someone that comesin that hasn't ever sold
anything they haven't ever doneanything on a job site and
you're trying to teach them allof the things at the same time.
John Wheeler (05:00):
My, my room number is 514.
And the first thing I thoughtof when I saw that was, oh, five
and a quarter jams and like toget to the level where like it's
just a part of your daily lifeis almost impossible.
But you know, one of the otherthings you know that I'm a real
big fan of is you don't startwith I have to teach it
everything.
You teach it just one, onething at a time.
(05:22):
Or solve one challenge, ormaybe two challenges, and if
during that process, youactually find a new challenge,
you stop the other one and justfocus on one thing.
I think that you see a lot ofpeople that they want to do this
digital transformation, butthey get 10 things from every
department and it's impossiblefor anybody to do that.
Stefanie Couch (05:45):
Yeah, and talking about digital
transformations, you know thingslike ERP integrations and even
software integrations, cpqs orcustomer pricing tool.
They can feel like brainsurgery, a little bit like a
brain transplant.
They are scary, they take a lotof resources.
They are worth it in the end,but that process to get there is
painful.
And resources, they are worthit in the end, but that process
to get there is painful.
(06:07):
And if you don't set it up theright way or with the right
partner, I think that is whereit can be a really terrible
result.
But most of the time, if youset it up the right way, it can
be a really positive thing forthe next generation in your
business.
John Wheeler (06:20):
Yeah, and I think I try to be transparent when you
know no matter who I'm talkingto, whether it's my personal
life or whatever, because themore things you get out on the
table and the more you knowwhat's coming the more than you
can prepare for it and, you know, just out someone else to do
(06:44):
that, yeah, so that you canagain, the people that are
excellent at their job are goingto be excellent at doing those
things.
But help the other people, youknow, do the tasks, their daily
tasks.
Yeah, making sure that you silothat out.
Stefanie Couch (06:57):
You've worked on a lot of different areas of our
industry, so tell me a littlebit about I know you started at
a location near your hometown,at Big Box.
John Wheeler (07:06):
Yep.
Stefanie Couch (07:06):
And then you went to a bigger in the two-step
distribution channel, right,yep.
And then now you're here atParadigm.
You're selling software in thesame industry.
What do you think thechallenges that you see the most
in our industry from the timeyou started to now?
Have they changed or are theystill the same challenges, and
what are they?
John Wheeler (07:28):
I think it's the same.
Right you think of early 2000swhen I'm at the big box place?
That's where I got the bug forit and the crazy part.
I did the math the other dayand that was 25 years ago.
Wow, I'm for sure an old personin the industry, which is great
.
It's great to realize.
Stefanie Couch (07:48):
You're an old door nerd who thinks about five
and a quarter when they see 514?
Only an old door guy.
John Wheeler (07:56):
And I'm starting to be grouchy.
You know, if I see a dog on aplane, I'm like ah, dog on a
plane.
Stefanie Couch (08:01):
I'm the opposite .
I turn into Snow White andstart to squeal because I see a
dog on a plane.
John Wheeler (08:05):
You let the bird land on your finger.
Stefanie Couch (08:07):
Yeah, I'm seriously like this is the best
flight I've ever taken.
That happened to me the otherday and that's literally what I
thought.
John Wheeler (08:14):
I think the core challenge is the same and the
method of doing things has.
I think it's changed a bit.
The method that you put in aquote or the method that someone
gets information from somebodyhas changed, but getting that
information to the right personis still a challenge, whether
that's today through yourwebsite or previously.
You know it was a lot ofbrochures and order forms and
(08:37):
things like that, and then Ithink you know, just getting the
quote fast enough and gettingthat out, you know, was always a
challenge, and then everybodycontinues to expect things
faster and faster and faster.
So I think the challenges arethe same.
They just get, you know,exacerbated as you go move
forward with technology becomesfaster and Amazon exists, which
(09:00):
makes it hard.
Well, that's the thing you knowAmazon exists, which makes it
harder.
Stefanie Couch (09:02):
Well, that's the thing.
There's a lot of statistics outthere about converting things
and you're 21 times more likelyto convert something if you
respond within five minutes,even just saying hey, I've got
this.
I'll give you back the quote,and I don't really know very
many people in our industry thatcould even say that they
respond to an email within fiveminutes most of the time.
That's very hard to do.
(09:23):
But, with AI, you can at leastsend an email within five
minutes.
Most of the time that's veryhard to do, but with AI you can
at least send an email or a textor whatever, saying hey, I got
it, I'm working on it.
But I do think if we havesoftwares that can help us quote
quicker, sell quicker, and ifthe customer can quote
themselves, if we can get peopleto be more comfortable on those
programs, then we can get themto actually not even have to
(09:44):
wait on us because they're doingit themselves.
I still see a lot of people thatdon't feel comfortable doing
that.
I think it's because millworkis tricky.
Specifically, you know, if yousell a bundle of two before
eight pre-cuts and they're wrong, like you bring them back,
you're going to resell them thenext day with a two before eight
pre-cut.
Like I'm going to sell that tothe next contractor that comes
(10:05):
with the framing package.
If I try to resell a door orderthat I screwed up, that's like
some really super custom thingI'm going to sit in my graveyard
forever until I give it tosomeone or donate it.
John Wheeler (10:15):
And it's never just some like 30686 panel, it's
always, like you know, a doubledouble with you know pre-finish
, and it's got this weird glassand whatever it's painted orange
or something.
Stefanie Couch (10:28):
What's the biggest screw-up you ever had
when you were in a door orders?
John Wheeler (10:33):
Oh man, this is the one that got me invited to
not do multifamily jobs anymore.
Stefanie Couch (10:37):
That's a multifamily story too.
John Wheeler (10:40):
There was two apartment jobs.
Stefanie Couch (10:43):
I like that, got you invited to not ever do this
again.
They invited me to not Pleasenever come to this party again.
John Wheeler (10:47):
Yeah don't do that anymore.
I was doing mirrored sliderdoors like the easiest thing to
quote out, and I forget what I.
What specifically?
I messed up.
But I basically did stock sizesbecause I thought it was going
to fit, but the I don't know, Idon't know how I got the math
wrong, but like the overlap waslike a foot.
The two doors were overlappingand they installed the first one
(11:10):
.
You know, and they had like 700of them sitting in these
containers and they installedthe first one.
They're like it overlaps like afoot and I'm like that's fine,
like yeah, but when I close itit's also covering up like 18
inches of the thing.
And we had to bring those backand of course they were not like
I think they were not stocksizes, that's what it was.
They had to like cut the mirrorand redo the frame and
(11:31):
everything like that.
That was my biggest one that Ican remember, but I like telling
that story there's no worsefeeling.
No, tell me yours.
Stefanie Couch (11:42):
So it was also a multifamily job.
The worry about multifamily isyou don't just screw up once.
You know it's always like 237times at once.
This actually was not exactlymy fault, but you know it was my
order so it all went wrong.
But it was a large multifamilyjob with peep sites.
(12:03):
It had ADA peep sites.
So for those that are listeningto this that maybe aren't super
door nerds, that means there arepeep sites like you see, in a
hotel.
They are lower.
There's two different ones, sosomeone that's in a wheelchair
can look through.
And so we had a bigconversation about where they
were going to be get it from thecustomer big, you know,
(12:27):
conversation about where theywere going to be get it from the
customer and they say it's 52inches as the bottom one from,
you know, top of the door orwhatever it was.
I verified it like three times,put in the order get them in
shops, building them.
It just so happened to beAugust, the hottest time in
Georgia.
I'll give that little color tothe story.
I walk out and my guy came in,got me and said hey, I need you
(12:50):
to come to the shop.
That's never a good sign.
John Wheeler (12:53):
John, not good, not when they invite you.
Stefanie Couch (12:56):
And so I go out and I stepped up to the door and
the peep site was like this,far apart from the two you know.
John Wheeler (13:05):
And when you said 52, I was like that's not far
away.
Stefanie Couch (13:08):
They did it at five foot two All 237 of them,
so thankfully they were stilldoors and I had only been
working there maybe like a yearat the time I mean, I was still
a rookie and so all of mymanagement team like every
single person, including thebranch manager, the manager,
everybody spent the next weekbondoing all 237 of those peep
(13:33):
sites and then redrilling themsweating.
I mean I felt so bad and uh, Itried they.
They were like you're not.
You're invited to not help usever do this but it, uh, it
turned out being a good learninglesson because we ended up
putting in a bunch of protocolsfor things like that.
And what had happened wassomeone just fat fingered it,
(13:55):
they put the little dash in thewrong, they forgot the dash in
the middle, that's one dash andonly put the dash at the end or
whatever.
And it was, it was all wrong.
John Wheeler (14:04):
That's the you know.
You talked about the challengesand things, and when you have
to re-key something, that'swhere something like AI can just
or getting just two systemsintegrated, even if it's brute
force.
But integrating those thingstogether, where I have the
chubby little sausage fingersthat I'll push five keys.
When I try to push one, and,yeah, you just send in the wrong
(14:28):
one one, especially if the keysare right next to each other,
especially on the measurementslike that that you're going to
catch because nobody's going tomake a 20 foot wide door.
You're like that's clearlywrong.
But if you know, you put three,six when you meant three, oh
yeah, and then what are yougonna do with 42 inch doors?
Stefanie Couch (14:42):
a lot of times it is the expensive things that
get screwed up too.
Never the easy one no, I've, Imessed up some decorative.
It's always the most expensiveone.
But the thing is, once youscrew something like that up,
you don't do it again becauseyou remember that pain so much.
And I think that's one of thethings I want people to take
away, especially new people inthe industry is like you are
(15:03):
going to screw things up.
You know, I own my own businessnow and every single day we
learn something my team and I,my husband and I he's my
co-founder and there are a lotof lessons that have been
learned.
But usually if you learn itthat way, you can solve the
problem easier the next time andyou definitely feel the sting
of that hot stove.
So you don't have to go into itthinking you're not going to
(15:25):
screw up.
You just got to go into itthinking you're going to figure
out how to not do it again.
John Wheeler (15:29):
I read, I didn't read.
I won't pretend that I readstuff.
I listened to something aboutElon the other day.
He said a couple things, andone of them was if your hand's
on the stove, you're going tomake a change really, really
fast.
Stefanie Couch (15:43):
Was this the Founders Podcast?
John Wheeler (15:53):
Yeah, it was, we listened to it.
Stefanie Couch (15:54):
the other day.
If it's somebody else's hand onthere, you're gonna you're
gonna respond still, but you'regonna be slower to respond.
John Wheeler (15:56):
I always thought that was interesting because I
learned faster.
So true, oh, it's, it's thebest.
And then the.
When you talk about automatingthings, he uh in that that same
thing we talked about likeautomate at the end, because he
and he admits that he devalued,like humans in the in the loop,
and yeah you know, automatedover, automated it and was going
way too slow well, and even.
Stefanie Couch (16:16):
Even if you automate something if it doesn't
need to even be done in thefirst place, you just wasted all
your time, money, trying toautomate a process that should
have been deleted, and that'sthat's one of the things that I
admire about him the most.
I mean, you know, people loveor hate him and whatever, but he
is the richest man in the world.
He's a genius.
He is super hardcore,self-admittedly, and he has very
(16:38):
contrarian views on a lot ofthings, but when he has a
problem, he digs in fast and hetries to fix it himself with his
team, and I think there's somuch respect that I have for
that because it's like, hey, heis the richest man in the world
and he is still going to theTesla floor or the SpaceX floor.
John Wheeler (16:54):
They're sleeping in the hangar.
Stefanie Couch (16:56):
To fix something that he could just let other
people figure out, and I don'tknow if that's the right thing
to do or not.
The fact that he's one of themost successful people that's
ever lived probably leads me tobelieve that he's got something
right.
But I think that having thatspirit of ingenuity and being
able to embrace failure andadmit failure and say, yeah, I
(17:17):
screwed that up big time and Iwon't do it again, or I'm going
to try to do better in the firstplace.
John Wheeler (17:21):
And I think it's one of the things that makes
this industry special, I thinkis when I first got to the
distributor that I worked for, Iwas walking around the shop
floor with the guy that owned itwe were eight locations and
this huge thing and we werewalking by and there was like a
piece of paper, like a label onthe floor and like he was the
(17:45):
one that bent over, picked it upand threw it away and you know,
leading by example and beingwilling to put in the work.
At that point, you see thatthroughout and nobody's cooler
than anybody else and they justlead by example.
Stefanie Couch (18:01):
That's really why I think I named my business
the Grit Blueprint, because thegrit of this industry is what I
love about it so much and alsothe approachability Like, if
you're not like what you justdescribed, you probably aren't
going to last very long in thisindustry.
You're going to get run out.
John Wheeler (18:17):
You are.
You're going to be the annoyingperson in the room.
Stefanie Couch (18:21):
Yeah.
John Wheeler (18:22):
Yeah, but people also.
You know you mentioned mistakes, I didn't.
You know I didn't get writtenup when I screwed my thing up
and you know they're just like,yeah, you're going to screw this
up, like I've screwed up plenty.
Stefanie Couch (18:34):
The shame of walking in and watching them
sweat and, like all my bosses,walking by Like Grinch.
The shame was more than anywrite-up could have been for me.
John Wheeler (18:42):
I always appreciate it too, because I
guarantee if you saw thosepeople you know at WMA or
something one of them is goingto mention it?
Stefanie Couch (18:50):
Oh, 100%.
Ordered any peep sites lately?
Yeah, nope, I sure haven't, myfriend.
Thank you.
John Wheeler (18:57):
I think I'm the butt of most jokes everywhere.
I've been here at Paradigm andin my previous places but I
always think they're not goingto make fun of somebody that
they're going to let go.
So if you're the butt of thejokes, I guess it's a good thing
they got to keep you around tomake fun of you.
Yeah.
Stefanie Couch (19:13):
I love that.
Well, we're doing something newand we're recording this
podcast.
Today is actually annualconference, which is an exciting
time at Paradigm.
This is my third year attendingand you're going to have?
John Wheeler (19:26):
how many people are going to be here this year?
Stefanie Couch (19:27):
107.
107 people that are all fellowdoor and window nerds just like
us A bunch of dorks.
It's going to be a really cooltime and you guys have a great
culture here.
Wonderful snack bar.
You have an actual bar Dogfriendly.
John Wheeler (19:45):
The chew toys and whatever just out there.
Stefanie Couch (19:48):
And you also have a real culture of
innovation and trying to figureout what's next.
What are some of the mostexciting things that you are
presenting or talking about atannual conference this year?
John Wheeler (19:59):
I'm partial to the data and AI one because that's
the one that I'm doing, but Ithink we have a lot of good
products that people can use andtools and things around that.
But I think, you know, there'sa leadership change also from
the very tip top and I thinkthat's going to bring a lot of
(20:19):
just excitement and you know,kind of eating our own medicine
type of deal, where you know ifwe want to be better for our
customers, we have to be betterourselves and really looking
internally, rather than let's gobuild the next tool, let's get
bigger, faster, stronger for ourcustomers and in turn that's
going to generate more coolerstuff and we can do that at a
(20:41):
faster clip because nothing'sever getting slower.
I think the kind of theunderlying theme that I've seen
from all the presentations isjust getting better at what we
do.
No-transcript.
Stefanie Couch (21:00):
What do you think the biggest problem that
you solve here at Paradigm is?
John Wheeler (21:04):
That is a good question.
I think inefficiency is thebiggest problem.
I hear, and it's across theboard, you know whether it's on
the sales or the operations, oryou know marketing or whatever.
I think that we brute forceeverything and I just see
there's so many things that youcan either automate or turn five
(21:25):
buttons into one or integratingsystems and doing things.
I just think, generallyspeaking, efficiency.
Stefanie Couch (21:32):
What actually excites you the most about doing
this podcast and why do youthink branding and visibility is
important in an industry thathasn't necessarily decided to
shine bright like a diamond?
John Wheeler (21:43):
That is also a great question.
I'll start with the personalside of it, and what I heard
from a lot of the guests that weinvited was it's new and scary,
and bright lights and all ofthis, and anytime that I feel
scared of something, thatusually means that I'm on the
right track because I care aboutit and it's something that's
(22:05):
going to make me personallybetter.
So that part's good, I think.
The other part is until Iworked at Paradigm, I didn't
know that there were so manydifferent challenges and stories
and things like that that wereout there to be heard.
And there's a lot of the samechallenges, but there's also a
lot of different ones, and Ithink that people are going to
(22:27):
especially the format that we'redoing, where it's storytelling
and it's innovation type stuff,and here's how we were
struggling that we talked aboutus screwing stuff up.
Having people hear thosechallenges and how they overcame
it, I think is going to be thebiggest benefit.
So you think about the Elonstory.
(22:47):
I'm never going to start acompany that's going to colonize
Mars.
Stefanie Couch (22:53):
Don't underestimate yourself, john,
come on.
I don't want to go to Mars, youcould sell all the doors to
Elon's Mars homes.
We could take Pera down to Mars.
No, I'm all right.
I thought you dreamed biggerthan this, John.
I'm a little disappointed.
John Wheeler (23:09):
Maybe the moon, because I can see it, mars looks
like a star to me.
But yeah, I think just peoplehearing the stories and like, oh
, other people have had thesechallenges, here's how they
overcame it.
Or seeing other people do itright Whether it's riding dirt
bikes or it's recording music orany of the other things that
(23:31):
I'm into If you see or hear astory about somebody that was
here where you are and nowthey're over here, I think that
just helps everybody get betterright, and it doesn't matter
what tool they're using or howthey did it or who they
partnered with.
Stefanie Couch (23:46):
You know the story is the key and, like I can
do this, yeah, everyone hastheir own unique story and I
think we do forget thatsometimes because we talk so
much about business.
So I'll tell you a little storyfrom yesterday that happened
and then I'm going to tie itback to you and put you on the
spot.
So warning, but I was at the Doit Best Market yesterday in
(24:08):
Indianapolis and I was sittingdown at a table speaking to one
of the vendors there and thisman walked up to me.
He was looking for me.
He had a brochure.
He wanted to talk to me aboutsome stuff to put behind my
podcast booth, which is thatacoustic paneling, which is
super cool, inexpensive it is,it's beautiful, though, walnut.
(24:30):
So we start talking.
I was like, absolutely, I wouldlove to do that.
And then I said do you podcast?
Cause you have this reallygreat bass timbre in your voice?
And he said I don't podcast,but I'm a singer.
I said what kind of singer?
And he said, oh well, like aclassically trained singer.
I said, really, tell me more.
And he said yeah, actuallywe're doing a symphony in Grand
(24:52):
Rapids, where I live.
I'm going tomorrow to the lastpractice.
It's Ode to Joy, beethoven'sNinth Symphony.
And so I said and he startedsinging in German with me,
really, and we sang the fourthmovement of Beethoven's.
Ninth Symphony right there onthe Do it Best floor in German,
and I turned around and lookedat the guys that were sitting
there and they were like what ishappening right now?
(25:15):
What was?
John Wheeler (25:15):
that.
Stefanie Couch (25:16):
What just happened.
But it's so cool because I mean, if you looked at this guy, you
would never be like.
This guy is going tomorrownight to practice Beethoven in a
really good choir and they'resinging at Carnegie next month.
That's crazy.
Like they were invited.
They didn't pay to sing atCarnegie, they're invited to go
sing.
And I was just like, wow, it isamazing, when you start to talk
(25:37):
to people, what you find outand that segues me to you,
because you were actually amusician too.
John Wheeler (25:44):
I try to be.
Stefanie Couch (25:46):
Do you think that there's some sort of weird
reason why people who aremusicians pay attention to
details and come into thisprofession of millwork
specifically?
John Wheeler (25:56):
I do.
I think that there's anobsession, almost like an
obsessive thing about it and themore you learn, the more
exciting it gets and the harderit gets and the more things, the
more things you learn, the morethings that you'll get asked to
do, and I think that translatesdirectly into music.
So if your fingers can't do thethings that you need them to do
(26:17):
, you're going to figure outbecause, like, I need the part
to sound like this or, for mepersonally, I can't make my
voice do this certain thing, orI can't make the equipment do
this certain thing, and I thinkthat it's the same thing in the
industry.
Or you know, so-and-so businessis doing X.
Like how do I do that?
And so you just obsessivelythink about those details.
Stefanie Couch (26:40):
And it may be a certain part of your brain that
musicians have a different way,that they kind of think about
things in general, but I thinkyour brain does function a
little different.
So maybe that's because I'vealways said that millwork people
are a little weird likeincluding myself and I think
that's true in the best way andmusicians are kind of that way
too Always.
So we're just double weird.
John Wheeler (27:02):
In the best way.
Stefanie Couch (27:04):
Well, that's amazing.
All right, last question whatdo you hope if we sat down in
five years and talked is truefor our industry?
John Wheeler (27:16):
I hope that when I talk to somebody, we'll pretend
that I'm still allowed to sellstuff to people, that when I
talk to somebody there's lessinefficiency.
I know that sounds like themost boring answer ever, but I
hope that somebody woke up oneday at every single company and
(27:37):
said, oh, I hate grabbing thispaper and this paper, putting
together and stapling it, or Ihate reentering these, these
orders, and people actually make, you know, real changes because
it that journey could take fiveyears.
But somebody wakes up tomorrowand says we have to start doing
this.
I'm going to do it onechallenge at a time, and five
(27:58):
years from now, I would love ifthe whole industry but
specifically you know, our, ourpartners that we have took that
journey and five years from nowthey're at the level they want
to be at.
Stefanie Couch (28:10):
Does AI accelerate that timeline it has?
John Wheeler (28:13):
to.
I feel like that's the only way.
Stefanie Couch (28:14):
18 to 24 months.
John Wheeler (28:16):
Yeah, I think that's the only way you know.
Like I said earlier, nothinggets slower, and the
expectations included.
So your customer's expectationsto get information and you have
to automate those processes andit's so repeatable and you're
going to get thousands of peoplethrough your website and you're
going to do thousands of orders.
You're going to build thousandsof doors or windows or whatever
(28:38):
it is, and you have to makethat better and more efficient.
That's amazing.
Stefanie Couch (28:45):
I'm excited about what's coming, a little
scared also that people won't beable to catch up because there
is a real arbitrage moment Ithink of.
People are either going to beable to get on the train now or
it's going to be almost too far.
John Wheeler (28:58):
And that's kind of where I was going.
Right, you got just that firstthing that you do solve one
challenge, identify it, solve it, iterate and repeat the process
.
And you look at JPMorgan Chase.
I was at the Databricks Summitand 10 years ago they started on
their AI journey and theirbudget today is $2 billion just
(29:22):
for AI and that's crazy when youthink about what they're doing
with the fraud detection andthings like that.
But yeah, there's no way, withthe how accelerated things like
that get that.
They would have been able tohire any amount of people that
do that.
So, yeah, I hope that are.
That's what I hope is theindustry realizes it and just
solves one challenge at a time.
Stefanie Couch (29:43):
Well, I'm excited for this podcast and
you're going to be hosting thismost of the time.
I'm going to be guest hostingsome, but we are going to be
here all week just recording andtelling the stories of the
industry.
So thank you for joining us onthe first episode of the
Paradigm Industry Insiderspodcast and we will see you on
the next episode.
John Wheeler (30:03):
Thanks for joining us on the Paradigm Industry
Insiders podcast.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, be sure to
subscribe on your favoritepodcast platforms and follow
Paradigm on LinkedIn and YouTubeto catch more stories, insights
and ideas from your peersacross our industry.
See y'all.
Inefficiency is the biggest problem, I hear, and
it's across the board.
There's so many things that youcan either automate or turn
five buttons into one.
Stefanie Couch (00:09):
If we have softwares that can help us quote
quicker, sell quicker, you're21 times more likely to convert
something.
If you respond within fiveminutes With AI, you can at
least send an email or a textsaying hey, I got it, I'm
working on it.
John Wheeler (00:23):
They want to do this digital transformation, but
they get 10 things from everydepartment.
It's impossible for anybody todo that.
You teach it just one thing ata time Solve one challenge,
identify it, solve it, iterateand repeat the process.
If you see or hear a storyabout somebody that was here
where you are and now they'reover here, I think that just
helps everybody get better.
(00:44):
Other people have had thesechallenges.
Here's how they overcame it.
Stefanie Couch (00:47):
It is amazing, when you start to talk to people
, what you find out.
John Wheeler (00:52):
Welcome to the Paradigm Industry Insiders
podcast, where real people sharereal stories about what's
happening with doors, windows,millwork and life.
I'm John Wheeler and, alongwith my co-hosts, we sit down
with your peers who are movingour industry forward.
These are honest conversationspacked with practical insights
and lessons you can take andbring value to your team.
(01:13):
Here's today's conversation.
Stefanie Couch (01:17):
Welcome to the Paradigm Industry Insiders
podcast, where we tell thestories of the people, products
and technology in the window anddoor industry.
I'm your guest host, StephanieCouch, with Grit Blueprint, and
I'm excited to be here today forthe first episode of this
podcast with my friend and we'veworked together on many
projects.
John Wheeler, you are a salestechnician at Paradigm.
(01:40):
Welcome to the show, Thanks.
John Wheeler (01:42):
Very excited.
Stefanie Couch (01:43):
And we are going to be talking with a lot of
people over the next few weeksabout what's happening in our
industry, highlighting them,highlighting their stories,
talking about AI, all the coolstuff that's coming out, and we
talk a lot about this.
We're both really into AI andwe work with a lot of people and
projects, but historically, ourindustry has not really been
known for being a superinnovative place.
(02:05):
What do you think about what'shappening in AI and technology
right now and how people areactually going to adopt it in
the window and door space?
John Wheeler (02:15):
It's an interesting question because we
are we're slow to change andadopt things.
You know there's lots of Excel.
I think everybody runs to Excelfirst, which is totally fine to
help with, like a proof ofconcept.
But if you think about a lot ofthe jobs that are in the
industry you think of, like aproduction scheduler or a
shipping route manager or evensome of the sales teams I think
(02:37):
starting to automate some ofthose things that can be
automated and let those becausethere's a a lot of veterans that
you know they're key pieces Ijust named you know some of them
.
Their role is so essential butthey're, you know, doing a lot
of remedial tasks and they'redoing a lot of day-to-day stuff,
and so automating the thingsthat can be and then letting
(02:58):
those people be excellent atwhat they're doing give them
more value back.
Stefanie Couch (03:05):
Yeah, and it's scary to me that so many of
those people who are runningbasically the entire business
they're getting close toretirement as well.
So how do we capture thatinformation that they have over
20 years, 30 years in theindustry and then distribute
that, via AI or something else,to the next generation of
leaders that come in?
I think about that a lot.
It keeps me up at night.
John Wheeler (03:24):
I think that's where you know I did a lot of
learning on AI recently and youtalk about prompting and you can
teach it the things.
And the way I like to thinkabout it is, you know, if you
hired a new person, let's saythey're straight out of college
and they want to go intologistics or something they're
going to know you, to know thebasics of logistics, but you
(03:45):
have to teach them.
Here's our routes, here's ourtrucks, here's what they look
like, here's what the drivers do, here's our customer list.
And you just have to basicallyteach it the same things and the
fundamentals of it and give itthat context.
Once it has that, that's whereit really becomes really cool.
Stefanie Couch (04:03):
The issue is there's so much context Because
if you try to train someone ondoors and you were in Georgia
when I worked in two-stepdistribution and then in the
dealer channel, I grew up inGeorgia I thought I knew a lot
about doors I did.
Then I moved to Texas and Ithought I knew a lot about doors
and I didn't, because they dothings totally different.
(04:24):
No one in Texas has ever heardof a split jam.
They don't do that there.
Or California, that's not athing, but that's what 99% of
the doors in Georgia were, soit's really interesting how much
there is to train if you weregoing to build out.
You know, ben and I have workedon some tools like that and
there's so much detail into it,which is why it is so hard to
train someone anyone right nowit is.
(04:52):
It takes years.
I mean, it's taken me so longto know the things I know and to
try to teach someone that comesin that hasn't ever sold
anything they haven't ever doneanything on a job site and
you're trying to teach them allof the things at the same time.
John Wheeler (05:00):
My, my room number is 514.
And the first thing I thoughtof when I saw that was, oh, five
and a quarter jams and like toget to the level where like it's
just a part of your daily lifeis almost impossible.
But you know, one of the otherthings you know that I'm a real
big fan of is you don't startwith I have to teach it
everything.
You teach it just one, onething at a time.
(05:22):
Or solve one challenge, ormaybe two challenges, and if
during that process, youactually find a new challenge,
you stop the other one and justfocus on one thing.
I think that you see a lot ofpeople that they want to do this
digital transformation, butthey get 10 things from every
department and it's impossiblefor anybody to do that.
Stefanie Couch (05:45):
Yeah, and talking about digital
transformations, you know thingslike ERP integrations and even
software integrations, cpqs orcustomer pricing tool.
They can feel like brainsurgery, a little bit like a
brain transplant.
They are scary, they take a lotof resources.
They are worth it in the end,but that process to get there is
painful.
And resources, they are worthit in the end, but that process
to get there is painful.
(06:07):
And if you don't set it up theright way or with the right
partner, I think that is whereit can be a really terrible
result.
But most of the time, if youset it up the right way, it can
be a really positive thing forthe next generation in your
business.
John Wheeler (06:20):
Yeah, and I think I try to be transparent when you
know no matter who I'm talkingto, whether it's my personal
life or whatever, because themore things you get out on the
table and the more you knowwhat's coming the more than you
can prepare for it and, you know, just out someone else to do
(06:44):
that, yeah, so that you canagain, the people that are
excellent at their job are goingto be excellent at doing those
things.
But help the other people, youknow, do the tasks, their daily
tasks.
Yeah, making sure that you silothat out.
Stefanie Couch (06:57):
You've worked on a lot of different areas of our
industry, so tell me a littlebit about I know you started at
a location near your hometown,at Big Box.
John Wheeler (07:06):
Yep.
Stefanie Couch (07:06):
And then you went to a bigger in the two-step
distribution channel, right,yep.
And then now you're here atParadigm.
You're selling software in thesame industry.
What do you think thechallenges that you see the most
in our industry from the timeyou started to now?
Have they changed or are theystill the same challenges, and
what are they?
John Wheeler (07:28):
I think it's the same.
Right you think of early 2000swhen I'm at the big box place?
That's where I got the bug forit and the crazy part.
I did the math the other dayand that was 25 years ago.
Wow, I'm for sure an old personin the industry, which is great
.
It's great to realize.
Stefanie Couch (07:48):
You're an old door nerd who thinks about five
and a quarter when they see 514?
Only an old door guy.
John Wheeler (07:56):
And I'm starting to be grouchy.
You know, if I see a dog on aplane, I'm like ah, dog on a
plane.
Stefanie Couch (08:01):
I'm the opposite .
I turn into Snow White andstart to squeal because I see a
dog on a plane.
John Wheeler (08:05):
You let the bird land on your finger.
Stefanie Couch (08:07):
Yeah, I'm seriously like this is the best
flight I've ever taken.
That happened to me the otherday and that's literally what I
thought.
John Wheeler (08:14):
I think the core challenge is the same and the
method of doing things has.
I think it's changed a bit.
The method that you put in aquote or the method that someone
gets information from somebodyhas changed, but getting that
information to the right personis still a challenge, whether
that's today through yourwebsite or previously.
You know it was a lot ofbrochures and order forms and
(08:37):
things like that, and then Ithink you know, just getting the
quote fast enough and gettingthat out, you know, was always a
challenge, and then everybodycontinues to expect things
faster and faster and faster.
So I think the challenges arethe same.
They just get, you know,exacerbated as you go move
forward with technology becomesfaster and Amazon exists, which
(09:00):
makes it hard.
Well, that's the thing you knowAmazon exists, which makes it
harder.
Stefanie Couch (09:02):
Well, that's the thing.
There's a lot of statistics outthere about converting things
and you're 21 times more likelyto convert something if you
respond within five minutes,even just saying hey, I've got
this.
I'll give you back the quote,and I don't really know very
many people in our industry thatcould even say that they
respond to an email within fiveminutes most of the time.
That's very hard to do.
(09:23):
But, with AI, you can at leastsend an email within five
minutes.
Most of the time that's veryhard to do, but with AI you can
at least send an email or a textor whatever, saying hey, I got
it, I'm working on it.
But I do think if we havesoftwares that can help us quote
quicker, sell quicker, and ifthe customer can quote
themselves, if we can get peopleto be more comfortable on those
programs, then we can get themto actually not even have to
(09:44):
wait on us because they're doingit themselves.
I still see a lot of people thatdon't feel comfortable doing
that.
I think it's because millworkis tricky.
Specifically, you know, if yousell a bundle of two before
eight pre-cuts and they're wrong, like you bring them back,
you're going to resell them thenext day with a two before eight
pre-cut.
Like I'm going to sell that tothe next contractor that comes
(10:05):
with the framing package.
If I try to resell a door orderthat I screwed up, that's like
some really super custom thingI'm going to sit in my graveyard
forever until I give it tosomeone or donate it.
John Wheeler (10:15):
And it's never just some like 30686 panel, it's
always, like you know, a doubledouble with you know pre-finish
, and it's got this weird glassand whatever it's painted orange
or something.
Stefanie Couch (10:28):
What's the biggest screw-up you ever had
when you were in a door orders?
John Wheeler (10:33):
Oh man, this is the one that got me invited to
not do multifamily jobs anymore.
Stefanie Couch (10:37):
That's a multifamily story too.
John Wheeler (10:40):
There was two apartment jobs.
Stefanie Couch (10:43):
I like that, got you invited to not ever do this
again.
They invited me to not Pleasenever come to this party again.
John Wheeler (10:47):
Yeah don't do that anymore.
I was doing mirrored sliderdoors like the easiest thing to
quote out, and I forget what I.
What specifically?
I messed up.
But I basically did stock sizesbecause I thought it was going
to fit, but the I don't know, Idon't know how I got the math
wrong, but like the overlap waslike a foot.
The two doors were overlappingand they installed the first one
(11:10):
.
You know, and they had like 700of them sitting in these
containers and they installedthe first one.
They're like it overlaps like afoot and I'm like that's fine,
like yeah, but when I close itit's also covering up like 18
inches of the thing.
And we had to bring those backand of course they were not like
I think they were not stocksizes, that's what it was.
They had to like cut the mirrorand redo the frame and
(11:31):
everything like that.
That was my biggest one that Ican remember, but I like telling
that story there's no worsefeeling.
No, tell me yours.
Stefanie Couch (11:42):
So it was also a multifamily job.
The worry about multifamily isyou don't just screw up once.
You know it's always like 237times at once.
This actually was not exactlymy fault, but you know it was my
order so it all went wrong.
But it was a large multifamilyjob with peep sites.
(12:03):
It had ADA peep sites.
So for those that are listeningto this that maybe aren't super
door nerds, that means there arepeep sites like you see, in a
hotel.
They are lower.
There's two different ones, sosomeone that's in a wheelchair
can look through.
And so we had a bigconversation about where they
were going to be get it from thecustomer big, you know,
(12:27):
conversation about where theywere going to be get it from the
customer and they say it's 52inches as the bottom one from,
you know, top of the door orwhatever it was.
I verified it like three times,put in the order get them in
shops, building them.
It just so happened to beAugust, the hottest time in
Georgia.
I'll give that little color tothe story.
I walk out and my guy came in,got me and said hey, I need you
(12:50):
to come to the shop.
That's never a good sign.
John Wheeler (12:53):
John, not good, not when they invite you.
Stefanie Couch (12:56):
And so I go out and I stepped up to the door and
the peep site was like this,far apart from the two you know.
John Wheeler (13:05):
And when you said 52, I was like that's not far
away.
Stefanie Couch (13:08):
They did it at five foot two All 237 of them,
so thankfully they were stilldoors and I had only been
working there maybe like a yearat the time I mean, I was still
a rookie and so all of mymanagement team like every
single person, including thebranch manager, the manager,
everybody spent the next weekbondoing all 237 of those peep
(13:33):
sites and then redrilling themsweating.
I mean I felt so bad and uh, Itried they.
They were like you're not.
You're invited to not help usever do this but it, uh, it
turned out being a good learninglesson because we ended up
putting in a bunch of protocolsfor things like that.
And what had happened wassomeone just fat fingered it,
(13:55):
they put the little dash in thewrong, they forgot the dash in
the middle, that's one dash andonly put the dash at the end or
whatever.
And it was, it was all wrong.
John Wheeler (14:04):
That's the you know.
You talked about the challengesand things, and when you have
to re-key something, that'swhere something like AI can just
or getting just two systemsintegrated, even if it's brute
force.
But integrating those thingstogether, where I have the
chubby little sausage fingersthat I'll push five keys.
When I try to push one, and,yeah, you just send in the wrong
(14:28):
one one, especially if the keysare right next to each other,
especially on the measurementslike that that you're going to
catch because nobody's going tomake a 20 foot wide door.
You're like that's clearlywrong.
But if you know, you put three,six when you meant three, oh
yeah, and then what are yougonna do with 42 inch doors?
Stefanie Couch (14:42):
a lot of times it is the expensive things that
get screwed up too.
Never the easy one no, I've, Imessed up some decorative.
It's always the most expensiveone.
But the thing is, once youscrew something like that up,
you don't do it again becauseyou remember that pain so much.
And I think that's one of thethings I want people to take
away, especially new people inthe industry is like you are
(15:03):
going to screw things up.
You know, I own my own businessnow and every single day we
learn something my team and I,my husband and I he's my
co-founder and there are a lotof lessons that have been
learned.
But usually if you learn itthat way, you can solve the
problem easier the next time andyou definitely feel the sting
of that hot stove.
So you don't have to go into itthinking you're not going to
(15:25):
screw up.
You just got to go into itthinking you're going to figure
out how to not do it again.
John Wheeler (15:29):
I read, I didn't read.
I won't pretend that I readstuff.
I listened to something aboutElon the other day.
He said a couple things, andone of them was if your hand's
on the stove, you're going tomake a change really, really
fast.
Stefanie Couch (15:43):
Was this the Founders Podcast?
John Wheeler (15:53):
Yeah, it was, we listened to it.
Stefanie Couch (15:54):
the other day.
If it's somebody else's hand onthere, you're gonna you're
gonna respond still, but you'regonna be slower to respond.
John Wheeler (15:56):
I always thought that was interesting because I
learned faster.
So true, oh, it's, it's thebest.
And then the.
When you talk about automatingthings, he uh in that that same
thing we talked about likeautomate at the end, because he
and he admits that he devalued,like humans in the in the loop,
and yeah you know, automatedover, automated it and was going
way too slow well, and even.
Stefanie Couch (16:16):
Even if you automate something if it doesn't
need to even be done in thefirst place, you just wasted all
your time, money, trying toautomate a process that should
have been deleted, and that'sthat's one of the things that I
admire about him the most.
I mean, you know, people loveor hate him and whatever, but he
is the richest man in the world.
He's a genius.
He is super hardcore,self-admittedly, and he has very
(16:38):
contrarian views on a lot ofthings, but when he has a
problem, he digs in fast and hetries to fix it himself with his
team, and I think there's somuch respect that I have for
that because it's like, hey, heis the richest man in the world
and he is still going to theTesla floor or the SpaceX floor.
John Wheeler (16:54):
They're sleeping in the hangar.
Stefanie Couch (16:56):
To fix something that he could just let other
people figure out, and I don'tknow if that's the right thing
to do or not.
The fact that he's one of themost successful people that's
ever lived probably leads me tobelieve that he's got something
right.
But I think that having thatspirit of ingenuity and being
able to embrace failure andadmit failure and say, yeah, I
(17:17):
screwed that up big time and Iwon't do it again, or I'm going
to try to do better in the firstplace.
John Wheeler (17:21):
And I think it's one of the things that makes
this industry special, I thinkis when I first got to the
distributor that I worked for, Iwas walking around the shop
floor with the guy that owned itwe were eight locations and
this huge thing and we werewalking by and there was like a
piece of paper, like a label onthe floor and like he was the
(17:45):
one that bent over, picked it upand threw it away and you know,
leading by example and beingwilling to put in the work.
At that point, you see thatthroughout and nobody's cooler
than anybody else and they justlead by example.
Stefanie Couch (18:01):
That's really why I think I named my business
the Grit Blueprint, because thegrit of this industry is what I
love about it so much and alsothe approachability Like, if
you're not like what you justdescribed, you probably aren't
going to last very long in thisindustry.
You're going to get run out.
John Wheeler (18:17):
You are.
You're going to be the annoyingperson in the room.
Stefanie Couch (18:21):
Yeah.
John Wheeler (18:22):
Yeah, but people also.
You know you mentioned mistakes, I didn't.
You know I didn't get writtenup when I screwed my thing up
and you know they're just like,yeah, you're going to screw this
up, like I've screwed up plenty.
Stefanie Couch (18:34):
The shame of walking in and watching them
sweat and, like all my bosses,walking by Like Grinch.
The shame was more than anywrite-up could have been for me.
John Wheeler (18:42):
I always appreciate it too, because I
guarantee if you saw thosepeople you know at WMA or
something one of them is goingto mention it?
Stefanie Couch (18:50):
Oh, 100%.
Ordered any peep sites lately?
Yeah, nope, I sure haven't, myfriend.
Thank you.
John Wheeler (18:57):
I think I'm the butt of most jokes everywhere.
I've been here at Paradigm andin my previous places but I
always think they're not goingto make fun of somebody that
they're going to let go.
So if you're the butt of thejokes, I guess it's a good thing
they got to keep you around tomake fun of you.
Yeah.
Stefanie Couch (19:13):
I love that.
Well, we're doing something newand we're recording this
podcast.
Today is actually annualconference, which is an exciting
time at Paradigm.
This is my third year attendingand you're going to have?
John Wheeler (19:26):
how many people are going to be here this year?
Stefanie Couch (19:27):
107.
107 people that are all fellowdoor and window nerds just like
us A bunch of dorks.
It's going to be a really cooltime and you guys have a great
culture here.
Wonderful snack bar.
You have an actual bar Dogfriendly.
John Wheeler (19:45):
The chew toys and whatever just out there.
Stefanie Couch (19:48):
And you also have a real culture of
innovation and trying to figureout what's next.
What are some of the mostexciting things that you are
presenting or talking about atannual conference this year?
John Wheeler (19:59):
I'm partial to the data and AI one because that's
the one that I'm doing, but Ithink we have a lot of good
products that people can use andtools and things around that.
But I think, you know, there'sa leadership change also from
the very tip top and I thinkthat's going to bring a lot of
(20:19):
just excitement and you know,kind of eating our own medicine
type of deal, where you know ifwe want to be better for our
customers, we have to be betterourselves and really looking
internally, rather than let's gobuild the next tool, let's get
bigger, faster, stronger for ourcustomers and in turn that's
going to generate more coolerstuff and we can do that at a
(20:41):
faster clip because nothing'sever getting slower.
I think the kind of theunderlying theme that I've seen
from all the presentations isjust getting better at what we
do.
No-transcript.
Stefanie Couch (21:00):
What do you think the biggest problem that
you solve here at Paradigm is?
John Wheeler (21:04):
That is a good question.
I think inefficiency is thebiggest problem.
I hear, and it's across theboard, you know whether it's on
the sales or the operations, oryou know marketing or whatever.
I think that we brute forceeverything and I just see
there's so many things that youcan either automate or turn five
(21:25):
buttons into one or integratingsystems and doing things.
I just think, generallyspeaking, efficiency.
Stefanie Couch (21:32):
What actually excites you the most about doing
this podcast and why do youthink branding and visibility is
important in an industry thathasn't necessarily decided to
shine bright like a diamond?
John Wheeler (21:43):
That is also a great question.
I'll start with the personalside of it, and what I heard
from a lot of the guests that weinvited was it's new and scary,
and bright lights and all ofthis, and anytime that I feel
scared of something, thatusually means that I'm on the
right track because I care aboutit and it's something that's
(22:05):
going to make me personallybetter.
So that part's good, I think.
The other part is until Iworked at Paradigm, I didn't
know that there were so manydifferent challenges and stories
and things like that that wereout there to be heard.
And there's a lot of the samechallenges, but there's also a
lot of different ones, and Ithink that people are going to
(22:27):
especially the format that we'redoing, where it's storytelling
and it's innovation type stuff,and here's how we were
struggling that we talked aboutus screwing stuff up.
Having people hear thosechallenges and how they overcame
it, I think is going to be thebiggest benefit.
So you think about the Elonstory.
(22:47):
I'm never going to start acompany that's going to colonize
Mars.
Stefanie Couch (22:53):
Don't underestimate yourself, john,
come on.
I don't want to go to Mars, youcould sell all the doors to
Elon's Mars homes.
We could take Pera down to Mars.
No, I'm all right.
I thought you dreamed biggerthan this, John.
I'm a little disappointed.
John Wheeler (23:09):
Maybe the moon, because I can see it, mars looks
like a star to me.
But yeah, I think just peoplehearing the stories and like, oh
, other people have had thesechallenges, here's how they
overcame it.
Or seeing other people do itright Whether it's riding dirt
bikes or it's recording music orany of the other things that
(23:31):
I'm into If you see or hear astory about somebody that was
here where you are and nowthey're over here, I think that
just helps everybody get betterright, and it doesn't matter
what tool they're using or howthey did it or who they
partnered with.
Stefanie Couch (23:46):
You know the story is the key and, like I can
do this, yeah, everyone hastheir own unique story and I
think we do forget thatsometimes because we talk so
much about business.
So I'll tell you a little storyfrom yesterday that happened
and then I'm going to tie itback to you and put you on the
spot.
So warning, but I was at the Doit Best Market yesterday in
(24:08):
Indianapolis and I was sittingdown at a table speaking to one
of the vendors there and thisman walked up to me.
He was looking for me.
He had a brochure.
He wanted to talk to me aboutsome stuff to put behind my
podcast booth, which is thatacoustic paneling, which is
super cool, inexpensive it is,it's beautiful, though, walnut.
(24:30):
So we start talking.
I was like, absolutely, I wouldlove to do that.
And then I said do you podcast?
Cause you have this reallygreat bass timbre in your voice?
And he said I don't podcast,but I'm a singer.
I said what kind of singer?
And he said, oh well, like aclassically trained singer.
I said, really, tell me more.
And he said yeah, actuallywe're doing a symphony in Grand
(24:52):
Rapids, where I live.
I'm going tomorrow to the lastpractice.
It's Ode to Joy, beethoven'sNinth Symphony.
And so I said and he startedsinging in German with me,
really, and we sang the fourthmovement of Beethoven's.
Ninth Symphony right there onthe Do it Best floor in German,
and I turned around and lookedat the guys that were sitting
there and they were like what ishappening right now?
(25:15):
What was?
John Wheeler (25:15):
that.
Stefanie Couch (25:16):
What just happened.
But it's so cool because I mean, if you looked at this guy, you
would never be like.
This guy is going tomorrownight to practice Beethoven in a
really good choir and they'resinging at Carnegie next month.
That's crazy.
Like they were invited.
They didn't pay to sing atCarnegie, they're invited to go
sing.
And I was just like, wow, it isamazing, when you start to talk
(25:37):
to people, what you find outand that segues me to you,
because you were actually amusician too.
John Wheeler (25:44):
I try to be.
Stefanie Couch (25:46):
Do you think that there's some sort of weird
reason why people who aremusicians pay attention to
details and come into thisprofession of millwork
specifically?
John Wheeler (25:56):
I do.
I think that there's anobsession, almost like an
obsessive thing about it and themore you learn, the more
exciting it gets and the harderit gets and the more things, the
more things you learn, the morethings that you'll get asked to
do, and I think that translatesdirectly into music.
So if your fingers can't do thethings that you need them to do
(26:17):
, you're going to figure outbecause, like, I need the part
to sound like this or, for mepersonally, I can't make my
voice do this certain thing, orI can't make the equipment do
this certain thing, and I thinkthat it's the same thing in the
industry.
Or you know, so-and-so businessis doing X.
Like how do I do that?
And so you just obsessivelythink about those details.
Stefanie Couch (26:40):
And it may be a certain part of your brain that
musicians have a different way,that they kind of think about
things in general, but I thinkyour brain does function a
little different.
So maybe that's because I'vealways said that millwork people
are a little weird likeincluding myself and I think
that's true in the best way andmusicians are kind of that way
too Always.
So we're just double weird.
John Wheeler (27:02):
In the best way.
Stefanie Couch (27:04):
Well, that's amazing.
All right, last question whatdo you hope if we sat down in
five years and talked is truefor our industry?
John Wheeler (27:16):
I hope that when I talk to somebody, we'll pretend
that I'm still allowed to sellstuff to people, that when I
talk to somebody there's lessinefficiency.
I know that sounds like themost boring answer ever, but I
hope that somebody woke up oneday at every single company and
(27:37):
said, oh, I hate grabbing thispaper and this paper, putting
together and stapling it, or Ihate reentering these, these
orders, and people actually make, you know, real changes because
it that journey could take fiveyears.
But somebody wakes up tomorrowand says we have to start doing
this.
I'm going to do it onechallenge at a time, and five
(27:58):
years from now, I would love ifthe whole industry but
specifically you know, our, ourpartners that we have took that
journey and five years from nowthey're at the level they want
to be at.
Stefanie Couch (28:10):
Does AI accelerate that timeline it has?
John Wheeler (28:13):
to.
I feel like that's the only way.
Stefanie Couch (28:14):
18 to 24 months.
John Wheeler (28:16):
Yeah, I think that's the only way you know.
Like I said earlier, nothinggets slower, and the
expectations included.
So your customer's expectationsto get information and you have
to automate those processes andit's so repeatable and you're
going to get thousands of peoplethrough your website and you're
going to do thousands of orders.
You're going to build thousandsof doors or windows or whatever
(28:38):
it is, and you have to makethat better and more efficient.
That's amazing.
Stefanie Couch (28:45):
I'm excited about what's coming, a little
scared also that people won't beable to catch up because there
is a real arbitrage moment Ithink of.
People are either going to beable to get on the train now or
it's going to be almost too far.
John Wheeler (28:58):
And that's kind of where I was going.
Right, you got just that firstthing that you do solve one
challenge, identify it, solve it, iterate and repeat the process
.
And you look at JPMorgan Chase.
I was at the Databricks Summitand 10 years ago they started on
their AI journey and theirbudget today is $2 billion just
(29:22):
for AI and that's crazy when youthink about what they're doing
with the fraud detection andthings like that.
But yeah, there's no way, withthe how accelerated things like
that get that.
They would have been able tohire any amount of people that
do that.
So, yeah, I hope that are.
That's what I hope is theindustry realizes it and just
solves one challenge at a time.
Stefanie Couch (29:43):
Well, I'm excited for this podcast and
you're going to be hosting thismost of the time.
I'm going to be guest hostingsome, but we are going to be
here all week just recording andtelling the stories of the
industry.
So thank you for joining us onthe first episode of the
Paradigm Industry Insiderspodcast and we will see you on
the next episode.
John Wheeler (30:03):
Thanks for joining us on the Paradigm Industry
Insiders podcast.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, be sure to
subscribe on your favoritepodcast platforms and follow
Paradigm on LinkedIn and YouTubeto catch more stories, insights
and ideas from your peersacross our industry.
See y'all.
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