September 4, 2025 • 40 mins
Matt Spinks shares his journey from growing up in a family lumber business through the recession's hardships to becoming an award-winning young retailer at Lumber King in Danville, Kentucky. His story demonstrates how personal resilience and strategic innovation can transform traditional building supply businesses for modern consumers.
• Growing up in the lumber industry as the son of an 84 Lumber manager
• Experiencing the collapse of the family business during the 2008-2010 recession
• Developing a leadership philosophy that balances growth with stability
• Creating a work environment where employees feel valued rather than managed by fear
• Implementing a "Milwaukee Red Zone" strategy that increased inside sales from $10K to $350K
• Navigating generational differences in communication and buying preferences
• Leveraging strong brand partnerships to drive local store traffic
• Building a cohesive company culture within an employee-owned business model
• Finding purpose in continuously improving both personally and professionally
• Investing in self-development through education and industry resources
If you're ready to turn visibility into growth, head to gritblueprint.com to learn more and book a call to talk about your growth strategy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matthew Spinks (00:00):
Generations today care so much about
branding.
As a millennial, I care aboutbranding.
If your brand is clean, itlooks good and I know that it's
gonna be reliable becauseeverybody I'm watching is using
your product I'm gonna be yourloyal fan.
Do it Best is one of thosespecial companies.
They're all about building yourbetter brand.
They are all about the successof others which creates success
(00:22):
for everybody.
It's kind of like an unsettlingurgency that I want to be
better than what we are.
You were up here giving yourpresentation and, like my mind
was going 100 mile an hour.
It's not a selfish endeavor atall.
I know a better version of meis ultimately going to be better
for my company and those aroundme.
Stefanie Couch (00:38):
The feeling of being with people around you
that are also really good atwhat they're doing and they're
trying to get a lot better everyday.
I think if you find enoughpeople that are like that and
you can get the culture of that,it's pretty unstoppable.
Welcome to the Grit Blueprintpodcast, the playbook for
building unmistakable brandsthat grow, lead and last in the
(00:59):
built world.
I'm Stefanie Couch, the founderof Grit Blueprint, and I'm a
lifelong building industryinsider.
I was raised here, built mycareer here, and now my team and
I help others win here.
The truth is, you can be thebest option in your space and
still lose to someone else whosimply shows up better and more
(01:23):
consistently Each week.
On the Grit Blueprint, I'mgoing to show you how to stand
out, earn trust and turn yourbrand into a competitive
advantage that lasts.
If you're ready to be seen,known, chosen and become
unmistakable, you're in theright place.
Let's get started.
Thank you for joining us todayon the Grit Blueprint.
(01:46):
I'm your host, Stefanie Couch.
Today, my guest is Matt Spinks.
He is the assistant manager ofLumber King in Danville,
kentucky.
Yes ma'am, and you have been inthis business a long time, which
we're going to get into.
But your story is really one ofresilience and grit, which I
obviously love because mycompany is called Grit Blueprint
.
So I think our industry is madeone of resilience and grit,
which I obviously love becausemy company is called Grit
Blueprint.
So I think our industry is madeup of a lot of really awesome
(02:08):
gritty people and I know you'reone of them.
You grew up in the hardware andlumber world and you have been
watching your parents launchbusinesses in this space.
Now you're in this space andyou had some hard times closing
one of the businesses in therecession, which was one of the
hardest times any of us haveever been through, I think, in
this industry.
And I know at one point youwere like I'm done with this
(02:30):
industry, just kind of thoughtyou're going to tap out.
But now you're back and you areleading innovation.
This year at the IndependentHome Improvement Conference, you
are actually winning an award,so we're going to talk a little
bit about that being honored asone of the young retailers of
(02:51):
the year.
So congratulations on that,thank you.
And you have been also a 40under 40 for another LBM Journal
magazine and you are quite,quite the decorated person here.
Tell me a little bit about yourbackground.
She grew up in the lumber andhardware industry.
So did I.
I don't know if yourexperiences was like mine, but I
loved going there when I was alittle girl.
It's pretty cool.
Tell me about growing up in alumber yard and harvest store.
Matthew Spinks (03:16):
So I lived there when I was a kid, pretty much
from birth.
My dad had worked for numerousyears for 84 Lumber, which is a
huge company, but that's everykid's, every little boy's, I'll
say magical playground.
Yeah, every day it was my dad'sresponsibility to take me to
daycare in the morning I'd cryand he would take me there and
we'd color blueprints all dayright.
Stefanie Couch (03:35):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Matthew Spinks (03:38):
It was honestly.
It was a gateway for me toalways think in my mind growing
up that being a store manager ofa lumberyard was always what I
was going to do.
I thought my dad was the bestat what he did and, to be fair
to his credit, he was very good.
He is very good, but that'skind of what got me started in
(04:00):
it.
I mean, every day after school,mom would take us over there
and let us talk to him.
I was always friends with allthe guys, all the workers, some
of them actually, I help managetoday.
That's really cool, which isit's special.
It's a cool circle, for sure itis, and so that was kind of my
childhood.
(04:20):
But you know, around 07, myfamily kind of departed from
Avery Ford Lumber and we startedour own business, builders
Choice, and actually was was avery successful business up
front, I think.
If it had been any other timethan then, then getting ready to
head into that recession, Ithink we probably would.
(04:41):
It's probably still been opentoday.
Yeah, I think there's a verydistinct difference between
being a very good store manageror being a very good business
operator and running yourbusiness.
There's a big learning curvethere and there's a lot of
things Exactly, there's a lot ofthings that you know other
people take care of that youdon't take care of, and then
(05:03):
when you're trying to just stayafloat, that's something that
you know.
I had the displeasure of seeingmy parents argue in tears every
day there for a long time goingthrough middle school, so that
was seeing that and, of course,my family filing bankruptcy, you
know, in 2009, officiallyclosing in 2010.
Stefanie Couch (05:25):
The worst possible timing.
Yeah, I mean, we losteverything.
That sucks.
Matthew Spinks (05:29):
And, a matter of fact, we ended up the only
thing we could get a hold of waswe were renting from another
builder of ours whose spec homesdidn't sell.
We had to rent out that spechome.
That's what he had to do.
And it was now which fullcircle, like, like you were
talking, that subdivision wherethere were only three houses at
which we were in one of them.
Now there's probably 50 homesin that subdivision, so it is
(05:51):
blooming again.
But yeah, you know, once we didthat and we filed bankruptcy and
Builder's Choice is no more,lumber King kind of came into
the picture and that's that'swhere my dad has worked for the
last, going on 16 years now 15,16 years, yeah, and I went
through high school.
You know I was fortunate tostill be able to play varsity
(06:12):
football.
I've got two state championshiprings.
You're just a winner.
Yeah, I'm telling you, just awinner.
But just something that wasstill special to be able to go
to school where I was going toschool and, to be honest with
you looking back on it now, thatwas probably something my
parents could afford, couldn'tafford.
Yeah, and you know I've saidthis before to numerous people
(06:36):
but I really admire my parentsfor what they did, taking that
leap and having the courage tostart their own business.
A lot of people will never dothat, even if they should they
will make it so hard.
Stefanie Couch (06:48):
You know, I think I grew up in an
entrepreneurial household my dadand then his dad, obviously but
I was scared to death becauseof the recession same timing so
I graduated college in 2007 andmy dad kind of wanted to sell
the business.
You know, a few years later,and after that recession, I was
like I don't, I didn't eventhink about buying it.
I mean, I really now like Ilook back on it and I think why
(07:11):
did I not just do it Like I hadit in me?
Obviously I've got my ownbusiness now.
I also didn't have a lot of theskills I have because I went
and worked somewhere else for 10years, and I think it is one of
the scariest, biggest leaps,because you can look totally
stupid.
You are going to fail.
You are going to fail.
You might fail ultimately,where you can't come back from
(07:32):
it, which is that story there.
What are some of the things,though, that you watching that?
As a younger person a middleschooler, high schooler what do
you think about now in your day?
That really came from that time, because I can only imagine the
like, resistance and resiliencethat was built up in you to
quitting to you know giving up.
(07:54):
You can't give up.
You have to keep going Likewhat did that teach you that you
use today.
Matthew Spinks (07:59):
It taught me a lot of things but after
eventually not realizing,because I grew up in this
business and grew up wanting topretty much be my dad, like a
lot of kids do- right, yeah,sure, every one of us.
I didn't want to go into thisindustry because at the time I
had a pretty bad hatred for it,but at the same time I had no
(08:23):
clue on earth what I wanted todo with myself as far as college
, anything like that.
So I wound up going to acommunity college and worked my
way into into Lumber King, andso what that's done for me today
is as I've kind of gone throughit and went through all the
struggles of being 18 and 19,early 20s year old.
And you know, every decisionthat you make you know is going
(08:46):
to have a consequence, whetherit's a it's or at least an
impact, whether it's a good oneor a bad one.
And so it's not to me.
I know a lot of people if theylook at you, if they look at me,
they kind of assume I takethings a little too personal.
But to be fair, in thisbusiness, in this industry, it
has been nothing but personalfor me, and so I know that at
(09:07):
the end of the day somebody'spayroll has to be paid If
somebody, if somebody, wants araise.
You know now you have to figureout how you're going to do more
business to make up for thatmoney you're spending, also not
to be careless with my spendingas far as what I bring into the
store, what I order, as far asinventory.
You know you don't want to havejust an overt abundance of
(09:29):
inventory dollars just sittingthere when it's not making you
money.
Sure, like, you want to be veryintentional about what you
stock, what you sell, what youadvertise, because, frankly, at
least especially with LumberKing, it's an employee company,
it's 100% employee, which isyeah, that is so, even though
(09:50):
it's not my sole business to run, sure, you know, it's kind of
like it still is.
It's my money, it's myco-workers money, it's my boss's
money, and so you have.
Unfortunately, everything doesrevolve around money to a
certain extent, and you have tobe.
Stefanie Couch (10:06):
That's what the point of business is to make a
profit.
Matthew Spinks (10:08):
You want to make it and you don't want to lose
it, and so if going through allthat hard time taught me
anything, is that growing isspecial, growing is fantastic,
but if you grow too fast, tooquick and you're kind of not,
you don't have a, if you lack,like, a spatial awareness of
what you're doing as you'regrowing, you could find yourself
(10:30):
in a massive hole.
Stefanie Couch (10:31):
Yeah, because at some point the rocket ship is
gonna start to break apart inthe atmosphere and it can blow
up right.
You gotta make sure to test it,and I think it is, especially
with rapid growth, it is a goodlesson to try to.
Can we calm the storm a littlebit so the ship doesn't break?
You know, let's keep this thingwhole but also push it as hard
(10:52):
as it can.
It's a really fine balance.
How do you balance that hunger?
Because I mean, I feel thatvery much when we talk, you're
hungry personally.
You're hungry for Lumber Kingto grow.
You want things to be.
You know, you want a statechampionship ring every day.
Right, like that's how peoplelike us operate.
Right, we wake up and we wantto win.
How do you deal with that whennot everyone, not everyone in
(11:16):
the world feels that way, whichis kind of incomprehensible to
me?
But how do you deal with thatwhen people on your team people
you know that you lead aren'tnecessarily as hungry think
differently?
Maybe you have to inspire them.
How do you balance that?
Matthew Spinks (11:29):
It's a great question and and actually one
that I do think about.
I think about it a lot becauseyou kind of encounter it every
day.
And so, um, you know, you see,you know, most of my childhood,
most of my early days in myearly career with Lumber King,
has always been with my fatherbeing my superior.
(11:51):
But as of the last seven oreight years, I've also dealt
with other superiors that I had,and you get different
management styles, and so I'vealways been a big supporter of
not being afraid to be a copycatbut also putting your own spin
on it to make it work.
And so, number one, I feel likeyou have to be contagious in
(12:13):
your attitude.
Yeah, and you're not alwaysgoing to have the best attitude,
but you have to make sure thatyou're putting your people in a
position to win, even when theydon't feel like winning.
They don't carry wins, andthat's not always easy,
sometimes it's not always pretty, but your employees are gonna
understand the difference.
I do feel this way.
They're gonna understand thedifference between being
(12:35):
passionate and having a deepercare about what you're doing and
them, rather than just beingI'm the boss kind of attitude,
I'm a dictator kind of attitude.
I'm a dictator kind of attitude.
You do it because I told you to, whether that's the right way
or not.
Stefanie Couch (12:49):
You can lead with fear and make people do
things because they're scared ofyou, but you cannot inspire
greatness with fear.
You don't inspire greatness byyelling at people, by screaming
about P&Ls and all these things.
How do you inspire people thatmaybe are, you know, not
thinking the same way as youdon't have as much?
(13:09):
You can't tell everybodyeverything that's happening in
the business, right?
Maybe they don't know all thethings that are going on.
How do you inspire the person,all the way from the cashier to
the CEO, to be great, tocontinue to want to win?
Matthew Spinks (13:23):
Through conversations like this and
through conferences like this,something that I've kind of
adapted within myself is thatyou know, especially working for
an employee-owned company, butyou want to see everybody around
you, whether it's yourcustomers, your employers, your
co-workers.
You want everybody to besuccessful.
If everybody can make a milliondollars, wouldn't you want that
(13:44):
?
Yeah, and so, even though thatmight be unrealistic at the same
time, that is then with mypresident that I just that
conversation I just had theother day was you know, my main
goal is to make sure thateverybody can be as successful
as possible.
Yeah, and whether that's medoing my own research on whether
it's products, trends, goingback to school, gaining another
(14:07):
degree, there's a certain level,at least as a leader and a
manager, there's a certain levelof sacrifice that you have to
do.
I think it is ultimatelyrequired to invest in yourself,
to have more tools to put peoplein better positions, and so
that's kind of the thing that Ilike to do to inspire people,
(14:32):
because, to be honest with you,you really shouldn't lead by
fear, because most people, mostemployees, if they have enough
respect for you, if they respectyou, they're not going to want
to let you down, right?
No matter if they're making 10cents an hour or 50 an hour.
There's a certain level ofpersonal connection there that
they just don't wanna let youdown, sure.
And so I think if they know youhave their best interest in
mind, regardless of what happens, whether it's a level of trust
(14:56):
or things you do for themoutside of the normal realm of
that relationship they're gonnahave a conscience of they're
going to have to do this theright way, and I know it may be
hard to grasp sometimes, butthat's just what I found in my
short existence so far is thatyou know you have to the old
(15:18):
saying you have to treat peoplethe way you want to be treated,
and I know it sounds generic,but you know when you're dealing
with a different generationevery day.
That's what's what I found thatworks, at least for now.
Stefanie Couch (15:29):
I think, a lot about how communication is
different for each person, butalso generally generationally.
There's a lot of communicationstyle differences.
We were talking earlier so youwere in the session about
branding and we were talkingabout visibility, and then we
had a great conversationafterwards about how things are
changing.
Yet there are still so manydifferent generations in our
(15:50):
business that what has workedfor a certain generation that's
been running the business isstill true.
You know, like word of mouthbusiness walking in the store,
buying the thing, calling on aphone all those things are still
true.
However, searching on chat, gptand TikTok are also true.
E-commerce is also important.
(16:10):
How do you find the spot whereyou can get people to buy into
these new ideas and understandthat it is going to continue to
be more important in ourbusiness to do things like
optimize with AI to havee-commerce?
Even if they don't buy thething online, they still want to
look at it online before theyget to the store.
(16:32):
What do you guys at Lumber Kingdoing, and what are you
personally doing to figure thatout?
Matthew Spinks (16:38):
So it's funny, my wife she's an elementary
school teacher and we often havea conversation about how
education is changing rapidly.
So when I was a kid in school,when she was as well, it was
kind of one curriculum eitheryou get it or you don't.
Today, every kid has their owncase file and it is incredibly
(17:03):
personalized as far as how theylearn and transferring that.
I actually use hers a lot ofinspiration, because if you
transfer that over, everycustomer is different.
Our industry, like we weretalking about, is changing every
single day, and so you have tobe not only adaptable but you
(17:26):
have to be really flexible inhow you market your business,
just how you interact with thepublic in general, and so when
you have certain generationsthat have built their brand so
there's no secret about it, wehave a lot of older age, a lot
of ancestry embedded in ourcompany, and so those people who
(17:48):
built the brand of Lumber King,they don't want to change what
they've been doing.
Stefanie Couch (17:52):
They built that brand on what they did Well and
it's worked for a long time.
Matthew Spinks (17:55):
It has.
Stefanie Couch (17:56):
I mean, and probably been extremely
successful for a long time.
Matthew Spinks (17:59):
We've had some great successes, successful.
We've had some great successes.
Honestly, I know that I'm herethis week for Young Retail of
the Year, but there's been manyof late.
There's been many awards thathave found its way to our campus
.
The business we are growing Ithink a lot of it has been the
(18:21):
newer generations circulating inbut, like every business goes
through, we're going throughmassive growing pains right now.
Stefanie Couch (18:30):
It is so hard to grow.
Yeah, I don't think peopleunderstand what when you you say
everybody says they want tohave exponential growth, or like
let's 10 X this thing, and thatseems really fun on like a book
cover or on an instagram reelor something, where you're all
pumped up and it's kind of like300 where you're ready to run
into war.
Matthew Spinks (18:48):
um, but holy crap, it's hard to be honest, I
don't know and this soundsreally cold to say it like this
but you really don't know.
As far as a corporation, youdon't know who's going to make
it through and who's not.
Yeah, because, frankly, withour industry and the way it is
changing and growing so muchwith age, that business is gonna
(19:09):
outgrow some people.
If you're not willing to changewith it, the company at some
point, whatever it may be,whatever industry it is, they're
not gonna have really much of achoice but to move on from you
if you're not willing to growand adapt.
Stefanie Couch (19:22):
It's easy to hide in a company that's
relatively complacent andstagnant.
Dave Ramsey talks a lot about,you know, complacency, because
he's a huge, you know coachbusiness.
All these things he's done havebeen kind of like crazy because
no one else did them before himand he actually talked.
I read a book recently that hewrote about being complacent
himself and then he kind of hadto re-engage and I think about
(19:44):
this a lot.
When we have customers at GridBlueprint that are they're 70
year businesses, they're ahundred year businesses, they're
maybe third, fourth generation,and if we say like we could
grow this thing 10 or 20% thisyear, we'd have to do all this
stuff.
It's going to be really hard,it's going to be a lot of blood.
It's going to be really hard.
It's going to be a lot of blood, it's going to be sweat and
(20:05):
tears.
It's going to be late nighthours, Like for them as an owner
, if they're 60, 70, 80, you gotto have something like really
in you burning to want to dothat to grow 10% or 20%.
Now there are a lot of people.
I feel like I'll be a hundred,I'll be like what's the hardest
thing, but I think it has to besomething inside you.
(20:25):
It's like a hole that you can'tfill or you are doing it for a
purpose.
Yeah, purpose, especially sinceyou guys are an ESOP.
I love that, um, and I'mexcited because I think that
model could be like a hugesavior for our business with
some of the other ways thatacquisitions are happening and
things like that, because itkeeps the heart and the purpose
in the business.
How does purpose drive you atLumber King and your team?
(20:48):
Because I think an ESOP has waymore heart and I believe heart
is the thing that will have youendure the pain that growth
brings.
Matthew Spinks (20:59):
You're 100% right.
The ESOP has kind of alwaysbeen something close to me, not
because it's just my ownpersonal stock in how we do, but
it's.
You know, it's kind of likewhat we were talking about
earlier with sports and statechampionship rings and stuff
like that.
But you always want to be, it'slike always trying to find the
(21:22):
better version of yourself.
Yeah, um, it's not about, uh,owning 500 locations, it's not
about grossing the most dollarsever, it's about being the best
version of ourselves.
And we're nowhere close to that.
But that's what drives me andit's.
I've had a lot of conversationswith some of our upper
(21:43):
management that you know, likeyou were saying it's it's really
hard if they're close toretirement or they feel like
they've kind of made it right.
They don't see the urgency, andthat's what it really is.
It's for me it's kind of likean unsettling urgency that I
want to be better than what weare.
Like I look and I see and I'mlike there are so many things
(22:05):
that we can do different than bebetter.
You were up here giving yourpresentation and like my mind
was going a hundred mile an hourand like I was, we were, we
were talking earlier.
You know you got to slow downfor a second.
You can't do every bit of it atonce.
I think that's the biggestdriver for me.
Is is bit of it at once.
I think that's the biggestdriver for me.
Is is just knowing that thereare so many better versions of
(22:26):
ourselves and myself personallythat you can.
That you can achieve and Ithink to a certain level that's
pretty contagious is if you doit right.
Some people they, they, they.
They can be turned off by thatand and like it's sometimes.
I think it's misconstrued,misconstrued as as to whether or
not you're you're being selfishor not, and it's.
(22:47):
It's not a selfish endeavor atall.
It's.
You know, I know a betterversion of me is ultimately
going to be better for mycompany and those around me, and
that's, that's ultimately whatI want.
Stefanie Couch (22:58):
But when you have the right team and you have
a team of A players, we talkabout it a lot at our team.
We currently have about 10people on our team and it's 10
pretty hungry people, you know,like we want to win and we want
to do something.
That's a category of one, likehow do we be the best at what
we're trying to do?
And so when we think about that, it's like if you get the
(23:19):
people that understand that thatthere's not much that you can't
do together.
I think that a talent it's hardto come by.
It's getting harder in ourindustry because there's more
competitive.
You know, people pay more,people offer more.
But there's something aboutbeing on a team where, like
you've been on the statechampionship team, I'm a little
bit jealous I'm not going to lie, because all of my teams sucked
(23:40):
everywhere I ever went toschool team.
I'm a little bit jealous, I'mnot going to lie, because all of
my teams sucked everywhere Iever went to school.
However, I was in a super nerdyfun fact I was actually a
classically trained singer and Iwas in a really, really great
choir in college, so we werekind of like a national
championship.
I didn't get a ring, which I'mpretty pissed about.
But it was the feeling of beingwith people around you that are
also really good at whatthey're doing and they're trying
(24:02):
to get a lot better every dayand we would challenge ourselves
with harder you know harderthings, harder piece of music.
And then, once I got tocorporate, I felt that way and I
feel that way now.
If you're on a team of people,they're all pushing each other
each day and then you go to likea boring let's just just check
the box.
(24:23):
You can't get that out of yoursystem like you can't turn that
off, and so I think if you findenough people that are like that
and you can get the culture ofthat in your, in your, you know
surroundings, it's prettyunstoppable yeah, I agree, um,
you know when?
Matthew Spinks (24:39):
so I've been with Lumber King right at 13
years.
When I first started with them,it was a very the atmosphere
and I don't know that they wouldmind me saying this because I
think they a lot of people wouldagree the atmosphere was very.
Each location was their own and, like it was, nobody worked
together.
Stefanie Couch (24:59):
There was no communication.
Matthew Spinks (25:02):
And over the years and that's been something
that I've wanted to change morethan anything and I think for
the most part we have, yeah Isto be more cohesive as a company
.
And you know, one thing that Iwould love to see us get better
at is our continuity from ourcorporate office to our store
levels and to have a main goal,like at the top of the pyramid
(25:26):
that you're trying to reach.
Yeah, um, so that you know, whenyou're an employee on company,
everybody from it I don't careif you, um, even taking the
lumber building material, uhaspect out of it, I don't care
if you wash dishes or if you'rea cook or if you're if you're
the restaurant owner everybody'sworking towards one goal, a
hundred percent.
And so if, if you have peoplethat are both hungry to reach
(25:49):
that goal and they all want toget better, knowing that they,
if they get better, they reachthat goal, I think that
everybody's better because of it.
They have better attitudes, themorale is better.
Ideally, you know the moneywill be better at some point,
right?
I mean, that's what we all wantis to be more successful, and
so that's what I love, frankly,about this industry as a whole
(26:09):
right now, because you come toconferences like this and
anybody outside of your nextdoor neighbor that you're
competing with, everybody caresabout how well everybody else is
doing yeah.
Stefanie Couch (26:19):
It is a very friendly even.
You know, like you were justtalking to someone who's in the
same state as you.
I don't know if y'all competeagainst each other or not, but
it's.
Everybody wants everybody elseto get better because
collectively, if our industry isstronger, it is better for
everyone, I believe, correct.
I think that the point of youknow where we're at in our
industry is kind of a breakingpoint with the technology piece.
(26:40):
I don't think people admit thatas much as possible.
I know it's coming.
It'll be slower to come herethan everywhere else in the
world, but AI is not going toslow down.
Also, the generational changesif you take AI out of the mix,
totally just the fact that wehave a generation that will be
fully retired, probably in thenext 10 to 15 years, and they're
the, the patriarchs and thematriarchs of our industry, the
(27:02):
people who are runningeverything and have been for 40
years that should be scary andexciting to people.
And if it's scary, it's becauseyou're hopefully not.
You know you're not totallyhead in the sand, but you're
probably not as concerned as youshould be.
And if it's exciting, it'sbecause there's so many cool new
things that can happen, notonly with the next generation of
workers, but the nextgeneration of people who are
(27:25):
buying from your company.
So I'm curious you talked aboutyou know we were talking about
branding and all those thingsand you said your brain was what
inspired you, like you werethinking that's a good idea, or
I should think about that, orwhere, because I always like to
know what it is.
Matthew Spinks (27:39):
So this conversation, to a certain
extent, has been a common oneover the last few years for me,
when you have board members andexecutives all talking about,
well, we have to hit this number, we have to meet this certain
goal of a sales as a company bythis date, or whatever the goal
(27:59):
is of a sales as a company bythis date or whatever.
The goal is, how do we get therewithout growing more stores?
Sure, Right, and here's thething you know today, when
generations today care so muchabout branding, as a millennial,
I care about branding Like ifyour brand is clean, it looks
good and I know that to acertain extent it's going to be
(28:20):
reliable because everybody I'mwatching is using your product,
I'm going to be your loyal fan.
That's been the huge thing withjust Milwaukee at that point
and Diablo and a few otherbrands, Yellowwood being a
massive one.
All of these companies havemassive advertising and
following that, all you have todo is advertise that you have
(28:42):
them and you're piggybacking offof their they're doing all the
work for us, you absolutely are.
They are and all you have to dois say, hey, world, we have this
and and do a good job toadvertise and you can't.
You got to do pretty well withI mean you don't, you don't want
to just like throw it on theshelf, just have it there.
But as long as you activelypromote it and work it, people
(29:04):
are going to come to whereverthat is.
I mean, yellowwood has some ofthe funniest commercials and
they're everywhere between theSuper Bowl, nascar, christmas,
whatever it is, we're bothSouthern, so I know you'll love
this.
Stefanie Couch (29:16):
But Jimmy Raines obviously was one of the first
people that I ever saw dobranding in our industry and he
was CEO and owner of, you know,yellow wood of great Southern
wood preserving.
And I remember when I was alittle girl, you know he did the
Western videos I don't know ifyou remember this where he's
riding the horse and he's gotlike a banana yellow chaps on
and everything and they'veobviously quit using those.
(29:37):
You got to look it up.
I remember that was the firsttime I ever saw someone do
something cool and weird andcrazy in this industry and my
dad thought he was nuts and hewas nuts and everybody loved it.
And so 25 years later, howeverlong I think it was in the like
95 and he still is therefiguring out.
You know it's other peopleobviously now, but I was in one
of my customers in Georgia, alumber yard, one of my customers
(29:58):
in Georgia Lumberyard, and theyhave a great Southern wood,
yellow wood container and Ithought you know they made
pressure treated lumber, whichis the plainest, most boring
thing, cool and branded, whereyou look for a color tag and you
see something much like a pinkhat and you know what it is
right and that matters to peopleand they remember it, whether
(30:18):
they subconsciously orconsciously know.
But like, for instance, theyhave a box that they have right
now that says what in tarnation?
Who uses the word tarnation?
Well, we do, because we'reSoutherners.
We know what that was.
I saw that and I was like youknow what that's hilarious and
it was at that customer's and itwas in the floor and it had
KDAT wood and it said what intarnation?
And I thought that's different.
(30:39):
It's funny.
People that are Southerncontractors get that that
probably wouldn't fly inCalifornia.
I don't know if they would knowwhat the heck that even means.
Do you say tarnation inCalifornia?
Matthew Spinks (30:51):
Probably not.
I think it depends on what partof California you go to.
Stefanie Couch (30:55):
But that's the thing is, they understand their
market and they're willing to goout and they're willing to do
something that might not work,that people might talk about
them for but what if they talkabout you because you're the
coolest, most memorable thing?
Matthew Spinks (31:09):
I have people that come in our store and they
they want yellow wood becausethey believe it's the best.
Frankly, it's the sametreatment for the most part as
anybody else's.
Now they may buy better wood,you know.
If you want to get down tospecifics, but the patent has
probably run out now.
I mean you have to.
I mean it's like a mandatedcode that you have to keep for
(31:32):
wood, and so they want yellowwood.
And so the funniest thing forme that I always pick up on, and
it's so small but my OCD brainpicks it up but when they have
the piece of wood on thecommercial and they go to staple
the tag on it, the stapler ispointed the opposite direction
from the staples when it goes in.
And I'm always, I alwaysremember that I'm like yellow
(31:55):
wood.
That's it before I ever evencarried it and Milwaukee is
another you know, you have a redzone in your store.
Stefanie Couch (32:02):
Tell me a little bit about the red zone.
Matthew Spinks (32:04):
So the red zone was actually I can't take all
the credit for it because thereis a company in Columbus, ohio,
called Ohio Power Tool thatstarted as a small mom and pop
store that became, throughrevolutionizing, became one of
the at the time one of thebiggest online retailers for
power tools, and it was that'skind of what sparked it, and so
(32:30):
they had red floors and all that.
And so what I did was I waslike, hey, nobody around here
carries Milwaukee, nobodycarries Diablo, and it's got
this huge following and I'm likewe need this, everybody wants
it.
They're traveling Lord knowshow many miles to go get it.
Thankfully, through somevulnerability, through some
(32:53):
personnel changes, I wasactually able to have the leeway
to implement that.
And so, just judging off of thethousands of dollars I had spent
personally on those power tools, I built it piece by piece and
ran off of promos with Do itBest or Milwaukee Direct, and
that has been a huge winner forus because we tapped into a
(33:17):
niche that was not tapped intoand since then has everybody.
You look around the corner andeverybody's got Milwaukee now,
but you still have to line upand put your pads on and play
football, yeah, 100%.
And so we still have people thatcome from across the state that
have heard Lumber King Dam wasthe place to come by Milwaukee.
Stefanie Couch (33:38):
That's super cool.
Matthew Spinks (33:38):
And that's not our bread and butter only, but
it has certainly been what we'vebeen known for here lately.
That's cool.
I can remember looking at ourP&L statements for the year and,
although this is not what ourstore grossed, our inside sales
only tapped out at like a littleover $10,000 in 2021.
(34:02):
Then you take, whenever I wasable to kind of do, the
Milwaukee and the Diablo and itwent from half a year, so from
21 at $10,000, 22, only partiala year.
With Milwaukee we were alreadyover 70,000.
In the last two years we'vebeen considerably over 350,000.
(34:23):
Wow, that's amazing, and youknow our store is an old fucking
transfer station, built in the50s, that does not scream hey,
come shop here millennials.
And so that comment's been madea lot, but you know you still,
if you line up, you do it rightand you have the right goal in
mind.
Stefanie Couch (34:41):
Yeah.
Matthew Spinks (34:43):
We found a lot of success for it to where uh
all of our stores in our companynow carry uh they.
They stock Milwaukee and as acompany the last two years we've
been right around a milliondollars in Milwaukee as far as
sales, red zones, making you alot of green.
Yeah, I love it, I want to endwith two last questions.
Stefanie Couch (35:02):
So tell me a little bit about being a Do it
Best store.
Talk to me about why you lovebeing a Do it Best partner and
what that is for your business.
Matthew Spinks (35:10):
Do it Best.
As my career has progressed, myrelationship with them has
gotten a lot closer, and Do itBest is one of those special
companies and I do say specialbecause every person that I've
talked to that has been employedat that company has been
nothing but outstandingly nice,like they're overwhelmingly
(35:33):
pushy to help you and I saypushy and maybe that's not the
right word, but they're allabout building your better brand
, and rightfully so.
The better you are, the betterthey are, sure, but they're all
about the success of others,which creates success for
everybody, and so everybody frommy rep, drew Banyas he's been
one of the best coaches andmentors that I could have ever
(35:57):
asked for.
We really connect on our idealsand things and we've had some
similar paths.
That's awesome, and so it'snice that way, all up to the
academies and the trainings thatthey provide by bringing
individuals like yourself andBradley Hartman and just giving
(36:17):
you the best opportunities theycan for you to learn and be
better stewards of our industry,and that's you know, all in all
I mean, and you can take thespecifics of what it means to be
a Do it Best member as your owncompany, but just, there's not
really a whole lot like them outthere.
Stefanie Couch (36:34):
Yeah, they're great and I think they're always
trying to push to make sure.
Like you said, what do you needto make your brand better?
Because, hey, if our customerswin, you win and your customers
win, it's all good, it all comesback right in the wash.
That's for sure, all right.
Well, last question is you areaward winning retailer of the
year this year, socongratulations on that.
(36:55):
If you were starting out in thebusiness and you were going to
tell someone who was a youngretailer some advice, what one
piece of advice would you givethem?
Matthew Spinks (37:04):
The one piece of advice that I would that I
actually I do give a lot isactually don't be afraid to
invest in yourself.
Take the experience along withwith invest in higher education
and that doesn't meanautomatically going to college
or doing anything like that, butinvest in the resources that
(37:26):
the NHPA offer you.
Invest in buying products onyour own money, in your own time
, researching YouTube.
Those are all things that I did, but, depending on who you ask,
everybody's got differentopinions.
You know, depending on who youask, everybody's got different
opinions.
But in my opinion, in order tobe a great young retailer, a
great merchant in our industrytoday, you really do need both
(37:47):
the experience and the education, and you need to mix both
worlds, because there are a lotof old timers out there that can
give you fantastic advice, butthere's also things that they
don't know that are changing,yeah, and so you can become the
best of both worlds, as long asyou're able to adapt.
And to boil it all down, themain thing I tell them is invest
(38:08):
in yourself to make yourselfmore marketable for companies
that are going to hire you.
Yeah, you know, not everybodyis going to.
You know, at least up to mypoint be a be a lifer or a 10
year person in a company.
But you know there arecompanies out there looking for
people because nobody's beatingthe doors down to get into this
industry.
Stefanie Couch (38:28):
They don't realize how much opportunity is
out there.
I think that's a great point tosay that, basically, you are a
brand yourself and the more youcan invest in it and the more
you can do.
There's no returns that aregreater than the return on
investment in yourself.
And the more you can invest init and the more you can do,
there's no returns that aregreater than the return on
investment in yourself.
That's right.
Because you'll put everythinginto you know anything else, any
other channel, and you get 100%of the payback that you put
(38:51):
into yourself and your owndevelopment.
So I love that answer.
I think it's very, very smart.
So I have enjoyed talking toyou.
I think we probably could havedone like an eight hour podcast.
So I really appreciate it andcongratulations on all your
success.
I know you're going to bewildly successful as you
continue to grow.
I'm excited to continue,hopefully, to collaborate and
follow your story.
(39:12):
So thank you so much for beingon the Grit Blueprint and have a
great time in Orlando.
Matthew Spinks (39:17):
Thank you for having me.
I'd love to be back again thisis a blast, awesome, thank you.
Stefanie Couch (39:21):
Thank you for listening to the Grit Blueprint
podcast.
If this episode helped youthink a little differently about
how to show up, share it withsomeone in your building world
who needs it.
If you're ready to turnvisibility into growth, then
head to gritblueprintcom tolearn more and book a call to
talk to us about your growthstrategy.
(39:42):
Until next time, stayunmistakable.
Generations today care so much about
branding.
As a millennial, I care aboutbranding.
If your brand is clean, itlooks good and I know that it's
gonna be reliable becauseeverybody I'm watching is using
your product I'm gonna be yourloyal fan.
Do it Best is one of thosespecial companies.
They're all about building yourbetter brand.
They are all about the successof others which creates success
(00:22):
for everybody.
It's kind of like an unsettlingurgency that I want to be
better than what we are.
You were up here giving yourpresentation and, like my mind
was going 100 mile an hour.
It's not a selfish endeavor atall.
I know a better version of meis ultimately going to be better
for my company and those aroundme.
Stefanie Couch (00:38):
The feeling of being with people around you
that are also really good atwhat they're doing and they're
trying to get a lot better everyday.
I think if you find enoughpeople that are like that and
you can get the culture of that,it's pretty unstoppable.
Welcome to the Grit Blueprintpodcast, the playbook for
building unmistakable brandsthat grow, lead and last in the
(00:59):
built world.
I'm Stefanie Couch, the founderof Grit Blueprint, and I'm a
lifelong building industryinsider.
I was raised here, built mycareer here, and now my team and
I help others win here.
The truth is, you can be thebest option in your space and
still lose to someone else whosimply shows up better and more
(01:23):
consistently Each week.
On the Grit Blueprint, I'mgoing to show you how to stand
out, earn trust and turn yourbrand into a competitive
advantage that lasts.
If you're ready to be seen,known, chosen and become
unmistakable, you're in theright place.
Let's get started.
Thank you for joining us todayon the Grit Blueprint.
(01:46):
I'm your host, Stefanie Couch.
Today, my guest is Matt Spinks.
He is the assistant manager ofLumber King in Danville,
kentucky.
Yes ma'am, and you have been inthis business a long time, which
we're going to get into.
But your story is really one ofresilience and grit, which I
obviously love because mycompany is called Grit Blueprint
.
So I think our industry is madeone of resilience and grit,
which I obviously love becausemy company is called Grit
Blueprint.
So I think our industry is madeup of a lot of really awesome
(02:08):
gritty people and I know you'reone of them.
You grew up in the hardware andlumber world and you have been
watching your parents launchbusinesses in this space.
Now you're in this space andyou had some hard times closing
one of the businesses in therecession, which was one of the
hardest times any of us haveever been through, I think, in
this industry.
And I know at one point youwere like I'm done with this
(02:30):
industry, just kind of thoughtyou're going to tap out.
But now you're back and you areleading innovation.
This year at the IndependentHome Improvement Conference, you
are actually winning an award,so we're going to talk a little
bit about that being honored asone of the young retailers of
(02:51):
the year.
So congratulations on that,thank you.
And you have been also a 40under 40 for another LBM Journal
magazine and you are quite,quite the decorated person here.
Tell me a little bit about yourbackground.
She grew up in the lumber andhardware industry.
So did I.
I don't know if yourexperiences was like mine, but I
loved going there when I was alittle girl.
It's pretty cool.
Tell me about growing up in alumber yard and harvest store.
Matthew Spinks (03:16):
So I lived there when I was a kid, pretty much
from birth.
My dad had worked for numerousyears for 84 Lumber, which is a
huge company, but that's everykid's, every little boy's, I'll
say magical playground.
Yeah, every day it was my dad'sresponsibility to take me to
daycare in the morning I'd cryand he would take me there and
we'd color blueprints all dayright.
Stefanie Couch (03:35):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Matthew Spinks (03:38):
It was honestly.
It was a gateway for me toalways think in my mind growing
up that being a store manager ofa lumberyard was always what I
was going to do.
I thought my dad was the bestat what he did and, to be fair
to his credit, he was very good.
He is very good, but that'skind of what got me started in
(04:00):
it.
I mean, every day after school,mom would take us over there
and let us talk to him.
I was always friends with allthe guys, all the workers, some
of them actually, I help managetoday.
That's really cool, which isit's special.
It's a cool circle, for sure itis, and so that was kind of my
childhood.
(04:20):
But you know, around 07, myfamily kind of departed from
Avery Ford Lumber and we startedour own business, builders
Choice, and actually was was avery successful business up
front, I think.
If it had been any other timethan then, then getting ready to
head into that recession, Ithink we probably would.
(04:41):
It's probably still been opentoday.
Yeah, I think there's a verydistinct difference between
being a very good store manageror being a very good business
operator and running yourbusiness.
There's a big learning curvethere and there's a lot of
things Exactly, there's a lot ofthings that you know other
people take care of that youdon't take care of, and then
(05:03):
when you're trying to just stayafloat, that's something that
you know.
I had the displeasure of seeingmy parents argue in tears every
day there for a long time goingthrough middle school, so that
was seeing that and, of course,my family filing bankruptcy, you
know, in 2009, officiallyclosing in 2010.
Stefanie Couch (05:25):
The worst possible timing.
Yeah, I mean, we losteverything.
That sucks.
Matthew Spinks (05:29):
And, a matter of fact, we ended up the only
thing we could get a hold of waswe were renting from another
builder of ours whose spec homesdidn't sell.
We had to rent out that spechome.
That's what he had to do.
And it was now which fullcircle, like, like you were
talking, that subdivision wherethere were only three houses at
which we were in one of them.
Now there's probably 50 homesin that subdivision, so it is
(05:51):
blooming again.
But yeah, you know, once we didthat and we filed bankruptcy and
Builder's Choice is no more,lumber King kind of came into
the picture and that's that'swhere my dad has worked for the
last, going on 16 years now 15,16 years, yeah, and I went
through high school.
You know I was fortunate tostill be able to play varsity
(06:12):
football.
I've got two state championshiprings.
You're just a winner.
Yeah, I'm telling you, just awinner.
But just something that wasstill special to be able to go
to school where I was going toschool and, to be honest with
you looking back on it now, thatwas probably something my
parents could afford, couldn'tafford.
Yeah, and you know I've saidthis before to numerous people
(06:36):
but I really admire my parentsfor what they did, taking that
leap and having the courage tostart their own business.
A lot of people will never dothat, even if they should they
will make it so hard.
Stefanie Couch (06:48):
You know, I think I grew up in an
entrepreneurial household my dadand then his dad, obviously but
I was scared to death becauseof the recession same timing so
I graduated college in 2007 andmy dad kind of wanted to sell
the business.
You know, a few years later,and after that recession, I was
like I don't, I didn't eventhink about buying it.
I mean, I really now like Ilook back on it and I think why
(07:11):
did I not just do it Like I hadit in me?
Obviously I've got my ownbusiness now.
I also didn't have a lot of theskills I have because I went
and worked somewhere else for 10years, and I think it is one of
the scariest, biggest leaps,because you can look totally
stupid.
You are going to fail.
You are going to fail.
You might fail ultimately,where you can't come back from
(07:32):
it, which is that story there.
What are some of the things,though, that you watching that?
As a younger person a middleschooler, high schooler what do
you think about now in your day?
That really came from that time, because I can only imagine the
like, resistance and resiliencethat was built up in you to
quitting to you know giving up.
(07:54):
You can't give up.
You have to keep going Likewhat did that teach you that you
use today.
Matthew Spinks (07:59):
It taught me a lot of things but after
eventually not realizing,because I grew up in this
business and grew up wanting topretty much be my dad, like a
lot of kids do- right, yeah,sure, every one of us.
I didn't want to go into thisindustry because at the time I
had a pretty bad hatred for it,but at the same time I had no
(08:23):
clue on earth what I wanted todo with myself as far as college
, anything like that.
So I wound up going to acommunity college and worked my
way into into Lumber King, andso what that's done for me today
is as I've kind of gone throughit and went through all the
struggles of being 18 and 19,early 20s year old.
And you know, every decisionthat you make you know is going
(08:46):
to have a consequence, whetherit's a it's or at least an
impact, whether it's a good oneor a bad one.
And so it's not to me.
I know a lot of people if theylook at you, if they look at me,
they kind of assume I takethings a little too personal.
But to be fair, in thisbusiness, in this industry, it
has been nothing but personalfor me, and so I know that at
(09:07):
the end of the day somebody'spayroll has to be paid If
somebody, if somebody, wants araise.
You know now you have to figureout how you're going to do more
business to make up for thatmoney you're spending, also not
to be careless with my spendingas far as what I bring into the
store, what I order, as far asinventory.
You know you don't want to havejust an overt abundance of
(09:29):
inventory dollars just sittingthere when it's not making you
money.
Sure, like, you want to be veryintentional about what you
stock, what you sell, what youadvertise, because, frankly, at
least especially with LumberKing, it's an employee company,
it's 100% employee, which isyeah, that is so, even though
(09:50):
it's not my sole business to run, sure, you know, it's kind of
like it still is.
It's my money, it's myco-workers money, it's my boss's
money, and so you have.
Unfortunately, everything doesrevolve around money to a
certain extent, and you have tobe.
Stefanie Couch (10:06):
That's what the point of business is to make a
profit.
Matthew Spinks (10:08):
You want to make it and you don't want to lose
it, and so if going through allthat hard time taught me
anything, is that growing isspecial, growing is fantastic,
but if you grow too fast, tooquick and you're kind of not,
you don't have a, if you lack,like, a spatial awareness of
what you're doing as you'regrowing, you could find yourself
(10:30):
in a massive hole.
Stefanie Couch (10:31):
Yeah, because at some point the rocket ship is
gonna start to break apart inthe atmosphere and it can blow
up right.
You gotta make sure to test it,and I think it is, especially
with rapid growth, it is a goodlesson to try to.
Can we calm the storm a littlebit so the ship doesn't break?
You know, let's keep this thingwhole but also push it as hard
(10:52):
as it can.
It's a really fine balance.
How do you balance that hunger?
Because I mean, I feel thatvery much when we talk, you're
hungry personally.
You're hungry for Lumber Kingto grow.
You want things to be.
You know, you want a statechampionship ring every day.
Right, like that's how peoplelike us operate.
Right, we wake up and we wantto win.
How do you deal with that whennot everyone, not everyone in
(11:16):
the world feels that way, whichis kind of incomprehensible to
me?
But how do you deal with thatwhen people on your team people
you know that you lead aren'tnecessarily as hungry think
differently?
Maybe you have to inspire them.
How do you balance that?
Matthew Spinks (11:29):
It's a great question and and actually one
that I do think about.
I think about it a lot becauseyou kind of encounter it every
day.
And so, um, you know, you see,you know, most of my childhood,
most of my early days in myearly career with Lumber King,
has always been with my fatherbeing my superior.
(11:51):
But as of the last seven oreight years, I've also dealt
with other superiors that I had,and you get different
management styles, and so I'vealways been a big supporter of
not being afraid to be a copycatbut also putting your own spin
on it to make it work.
And so, number one, I feel likeyou have to be contagious in
(12:13):
your attitude.
Yeah, and you're not alwaysgoing to have the best attitude,
but you have to make sure thatyou're putting your people in a
position to win, even when theydon't feel like winning.
They don't carry wins, andthat's not always easy,
sometimes it's not always pretty, but your employees are gonna
understand the difference.
I do feel this way.
They're gonna understand thedifference between being
(12:35):
passionate and having a deepercare about what you're doing and
them, rather than just beingI'm the boss kind of attitude,
I'm a dictator kind of attitude.
I'm a dictator kind of attitude.
You do it because I told you to, whether that's the right way
or not.
Stefanie Couch (12:49):
You can lead with fear and make people do
things because they're scared ofyou, but you cannot inspire
greatness with fear.
You don't inspire greatness byyelling at people, by screaming
about P&Ls and all these things.
How do you inspire people thatmaybe are, you know, not
thinking the same way as youdon't have as much?
(13:09):
You can't tell everybodyeverything that's happening in
the business, right?
Maybe they don't know all thethings that are going on.
How do you inspire the person,all the way from the cashier to
the CEO, to be great, tocontinue to want to win?
Matthew Spinks (13:23):
Through conversations like this and
through conferences like this,something that I've kind of
adapted within myself is thatyou know, especially working for
an employee-owned company, butyou want to see everybody around
you, whether it's yourcustomers, your employers, your
co-workers.
You want everybody to besuccessful.
If everybody can make a milliondollars, wouldn't you want that
(13:44):
?
Yeah, and so, even though thatmight be unrealistic at the same
time, that is then with mypresident that I just that
conversation I just had theother day was you know, my main
goal is to make sure thateverybody can be as successful
as possible.
Yeah, and whether that's medoing my own research on whether
it's products, trends, goingback to school, gaining another
(14:07):
degree, there's a certain level,at least as a leader and a
manager, there's a certain levelof sacrifice that you have to
do.
I think it is ultimatelyrequired to invest in yourself,
to have more tools to put peoplein better positions, and so
that's kind of the thing that Ilike to do to inspire people,
(14:32):
because, to be honest with you,you really shouldn't lead by
fear, because most people, mostemployees, if they have enough
respect for you, if they respectyou, they're not going to want
to let you down, right?
No matter if they're making 10cents an hour or 50 an hour.
There's a certain level ofpersonal connection there that
they just don't wanna let youdown, sure.
And so I think if they know youhave their best interest in
mind, regardless of what happens, whether it's a level of trust
(14:56):
or things you do for themoutside of the normal realm of
that relationship they're gonnahave a conscience of they're
going to have to do this theright way, and I know it may be
hard to grasp sometimes, butthat's just what I found in my
short existence so far is thatyou know you have to the old
(15:18):
saying you have to treat peoplethe way you want to be treated,
and I know it sounds generic,but you know when you're dealing
with a different generationevery day.
That's what's what I found thatworks, at least for now.
Stefanie Couch (15:29):
I think, a lot about how communication is
different for each person, butalso generally generationally.
There's a lot of communicationstyle differences.
We were talking earlier so youwere in the session about
branding and we were talkingabout visibility, and then we
had a great conversationafterwards about how things are
changing.
Yet there are still so manydifferent generations in our
(15:50):
business that what has workedfor a certain generation that's
been running the business isstill true.
You know, like word of mouthbusiness walking in the store,
buying the thing, calling on aphone all those things are still
true.
However, searching on chat, gptand TikTok are also true.
E-commerce is also important.
(16:10):
How do you find the spot whereyou can get people to buy into
these new ideas and understandthat it is going to continue to
be more important in ourbusiness to do things like
optimize with AI to havee-commerce?
Even if they don't buy thething online, they still want to
look at it online before theyget to the store.
(16:32):
What do you guys at Lumber Kingdoing, and what are you
personally doing to figure thatout?
Matthew Spinks (16:38):
So it's funny, my wife she's an elementary
school teacher and we often havea conversation about how
education is changing rapidly.
So when I was a kid in school,when she was as well, it was
kind of one curriculum eitheryou get it or you don't.
Today, every kid has their owncase file and it is incredibly
(17:03):
personalized as far as how theylearn and transferring that.
I actually use hers a lot ofinspiration, because if you
transfer that over, everycustomer is different.
Our industry, like we weretalking about, is changing every
single day, and so you have tobe not only adaptable but you
(17:26):
have to be really flexible inhow you market your business,
just how you interact with thepublic in general, and so when
you have certain generationsthat have built their brand so
there's no secret about it, wehave a lot of older age, a lot
of ancestry embedded in ourcompany, and so those people who
(17:48):
built the brand of Lumber King,they don't want to change what
they've been doing.
Stefanie Couch (17:52):
They built that brand on what they did Well and
it's worked for a long time.
Matthew Spinks (17:55):
It has.
Stefanie Couch (17:56):
I mean, and probably been extremely
successful for a long time.
Matthew Spinks (17:59):
We've had some great successes, successful.
We've had some great successes.
Honestly, I know that I'm herethis week for Young Retail of
the Year, but there's been manyof late.
There's been many awards thathave found its way to our campus
.
The business we are growing Ithink a lot of it has been the
(18:21):
newer generations circulating inbut, like every business goes
through, we're going throughmassive growing pains right now.
Stefanie Couch (18:30):
It is so hard to grow.
Yeah, I don't think peopleunderstand what when you you say
everybody says they want tohave exponential growth, or like
let's 10 X this thing, and thatseems really fun on like a book
cover or on an instagram reelor something, where you're all
pumped up and it's kind of like300 where you're ready to run
into war.
Matthew Spinks (18:48):
um, but holy crap, it's hard to be honest, I
don't know and this soundsreally cold to say it like this
but you really don't know.
As far as a corporation, youdon't know who's going to make
it through and who's not.
Yeah, because, frankly, withour industry and the way it is
changing and growing so muchwith age, that business is gonna
(19:09):
outgrow some people.
If you're not willing to changewith it, the company at some
point, whatever it may be,whatever industry it is, they're
not gonna have really much of achoice but to move on from you
if you're not willing to growand adapt.
Stefanie Couch (19:22):
It's easy to hide in a company that's
relatively complacent andstagnant.
Dave Ramsey talks a lot about,you know, complacency, because
he's a huge, you know coachbusiness.
All these things he's done havebeen kind of like crazy because
no one else did them before himand he actually talked.
I read a book recently that hewrote about being complacent
himself and then he kind of hadto re-engage and I think about
(19:44):
this a lot.
When we have customers at GridBlueprint that are they're 70
year businesses, they're ahundred year businesses, they're
maybe third, fourth generation,and if we say like we could
grow this thing 10 or 20% thisyear, we'd have to do all this
stuff.
It's going to be really hard,it's going to be a lot of blood.
It's going to be really hard.
It's going to be a lot of blood, it's going to be sweat and
(20:05):
tears.
It's going to be late nighthours, Like for them as an owner
, if they're 60, 70, 80, you gotto have something like really
in you burning to want to dothat to grow 10% or 20%.
Now there are a lot of people.
I feel like I'll be a hundred,I'll be like what's the hardest
thing, but I think it has to besomething inside you.
(20:25):
It's like a hole that you can'tfill or you are doing it for a
purpose.
Yeah, purpose, especially sinceyou guys are an ESOP.
I love that, um, and I'mexcited because I think that
model could be like a hugesavior for our business with
some of the other ways thatacquisitions are happening and
things like that, because itkeeps the heart and the purpose
in the business.
How does purpose drive you atLumber King and your team?
(20:48):
Because I think an ESOP has waymore heart and I believe heart
is the thing that will have youendure the pain that growth
brings.
Matthew Spinks (20:59):
You're 100% right.
The ESOP has kind of alwaysbeen something close to me, not
because it's just my ownpersonal stock in how we do, but
it's.
You know, it's kind of likewhat we were talking about
earlier with sports and statechampionship rings and stuff
like that.
But you always want to be, it'slike always trying to find the
(21:22):
better version of yourself.
Yeah, um, it's not about, uh,owning 500 locations, it's not
about grossing the most dollarsever, it's about being the best
version of ourselves.
And we're nowhere close to that.
But that's what drives me andit's.
I've had a lot of conversationswith some of our upper
(21:43):
management that you know, likeyou were saying it's it's really
hard if they're close toretirement or they feel like
they've kind of made it right.
They don't see the urgency, andthat's what it really is.
It's for me it's kind of likean unsettling urgency that I
want to be better than what weare.
Like I look and I see and I'mlike there are so many things
(22:05):
that we can do different than bebetter.
You were up here giving yourpresentation and like my mind
was going a hundred mile an hourand like I was, we were, we
were talking earlier.
You know you got to slow downfor a second.
You can't do every bit of it atonce.
I think that's the biggestdriver for me.
Is is bit of it at once.
I think that's the biggestdriver for me.
Is is just knowing that thereare so many better versions of
(22:26):
ourselves and myself personallythat you can.
That you can achieve and Ithink to a certain level that's
pretty contagious is if you doit right.
Some people they, they, they.
They can be turned off by thatand and like it's sometimes.
I think it's misconstrued,misconstrued as as to whether or
not you're you're being selfishor not, and it's.
(22:47):
It's not a selfish endeavor atall.
It's.
You know, I know a betterversion of me is ultimately
going to be better for mycompany and those around me, and
that's, that's ultimately whatI want.
Stefanie Couch (22:58):
But when you have the right team and you have
a team of A players, we talkabout it a lot at our team.
We currently have about 10people on our team and it's 10
pretty hungry people, you know,like we want to win and we want
to do something.
That's a category of one, likehow do we be the best at what
we're trying to do?
And so when we think about that, it's like if you get the
(23:19):
people that understand that thatthere's not much that you can't
do together.
I think that a talent it's hardto come by.
It's getting harder in ourindustry because there's more
competitive.
You know, people pay more,people offer more.
But there's something aboutbeing on a team where, like
you've been on the statechampionship team, I'm a little
bit jealous I'm not going to lie, because all of my teams sucked
(23:40):
everywhere I ever went toschool team.
I'm a little bit jealous, I'mnot going to lie, because all of
my teams sucked everywhere Iever went to school.
However, I was in a super nerdyfun fact I was actually a
classically trained singer and Iwas in a really, really great
choir in college, so we werekind of like a national
championship.
I didn't get a ring, which I'mpretty pissed about.
But it was the feeling of beingwith people around you that are
also really good at whatthey're doing and they're trying
(24:02):
to get a lot better every dayand we would challenge ourselves
with harder you know harderthings, harder piece of music.
And then, once I got tocorporate, I felt that way and I
feel that way now.
If you're on a team of people,they're all pushing each other
each day and then you go to likea boring let's just just check
the box.
(24:23):
You can't get that out of yoursystem like you can't turn that
off, and so I think if you findenough people that are like that
and you can get the culture ofthat in your, in your, you know
surroundings, it's prettyunstoppable yeah, I agree, um,
you know when?
Matthew Spinks (24:39):
so I've been with Lumber King right at 13
years.
When I first started with them,it was a very the atmosphere
and I don't know that they wouldmind me saying this because I
think they a lot of people wouldagree the atmosphere was very.
Each location was their own and, like it was, nobody worked
together.
Stefanie Couch (24:59):
There was no communication.
Matthew Spinks (25:02):
And over the years and that's been something
that I've wanted to change morethan anything and I think for
the most part we have, yeah Isto be more cohesive as a company
.
And you know, one thing that Iwould love to see us get better
at is our continuity from ourcorporate office to our store
levels and to have a main goal,like at the top of the pyramid
(25:26):
that you're trying to reach.
Yeah, um, so that you know, whenyou're an employee on company,
everybody from it I don't careif you, um, even taking the
lumber building material, uhaspect out of it, I don't care
if you wash dishes or if you'rea cook or if you're if you're
the restaurant owner everybody'sworking towards one goal, a
hundred percent.
And so if, if you have peoplethat are both hungry to reach
(25:49):
that goal and they all want toget better, knowing that they,
if they get better, they reachthat goal, I think that
everybody's better because of it.
They have better attitudes, themorale is better.
Ideally, you know the moneywill be better at some point,
right?
I mean, that's what we all wantis to be more successful, and
so that's what I love, frankly,about this industry as a whole
(26:09):
right now, because you come toconferences like this and
anybody outside of your nextdoor neighbor that you're
competing with, everybody caresabout how well everybody else is
doing yeah.
Stefanie Couch (26:19):
It is a very friendly even.
You know, like you were justtalking to someone who's in the
same state as you.
I don't know if y'all competeagainst each other or not, but
it's.
Everybody wants everybody elseto get better because
collectively, if our industry isstronger, it is better for
everyone, I believe, correct.
I think that the point of youknow where we're at in our
industry is kind of a breakingpoint with the technology piece.
(26:40):
I don't think people admit thatas much as possible.
I know it's coming.
It'll be slower to come herethan everywhere else in the
world, but AI is not going toslow down.
Also, the generational changesif you take AI out of the mix,
totally just the fact that wehave a generation that will be
fully retired, probably in thenext 10 to 15 years, and they're
the, the patriarchs and thematriarchs of our industry, the
(27:02):
people who are runningeverything and have been for 40
years that should be scary andexciting to people.
And if it's scary, it's becauseyou're hopefully not.
You know you're not totallyhead in the sand, but you're
probably not as concerned as youshould be.
And if it's exciting, it'sbecause there's so many cool new
things that can happen, notonly with the next generation of
workers, but the nextgeneration of people who are
(27:25):
buying from your company.
So I'm curious you talked aboutyou know we were talking about
branding and all those thingsand you said your brain was what
inspired you, like you werethinking that's a good idea, or
I should think about that, orwhere, because I always like to
know what it is.
Matthew Spinks (27:39):
So this conversation, to a certain
extent, has been a common oneover the last few years for me,
when you have board members andexecutives all talking about,
well, we have to hit this number, we have to meet this certain
goal of a sales as a company bythis date, or whatever the goal
(27:59):
is of a sales as a company bythis date or whatever.
The goal is, how do we get therewithout growing more stores?
Sure, Right, and here's thething you know today, when
generations today care so muchabout branding, as a millennial,
I care about branding Like ifyour brand is clean, it looks
good and I know that to acertain extent it's going to be
(28:20):
reliable because everybody I'mwatching is using your product,
I'm going to be your loyal fan.
That's been the huge thing withjust Milwaukee at that point
and Diablo and a few otherbrands, Yellowwood being a
massive one.
All of these companies havemassive advertising and
following that, all you have todo is advertise that you have
(28:42):
them and you're piggybacking offof their they're doing all the
work for us, you absolutely are.
They are and all you have to dois say, hey, world, we have this
and and do a good job toadvertise and you can't.
You got to do pretty well withI mean you don't, you don't want
to just like throw it on theshelf, just have it there.
But as long as you activelypromote it and work it, people
(29:04):
are going to come to whereverthat is.
I mean, yellowwood has some ofthe funniest commercials and
they're everywhere between theSuper Bowl, nascar, christmas,
whatever it is, we're bothSouthern, so I know you'll love
this.
Stefanie Couch (29:16):
But Jimmy Raines obviously was one of the first
people that I ever saw dobranding in our industry and he
was CEO and owner of, you know,yellow wood of great Southern
wood preserving.
And I remember when I was alittle girl, you know he did the
Western videos I don't know ifyou remember this where he's
riding the horse and he's gotlike a banana yellow chaps on
and everything and they'veobviously quit using those.
(29:37):
You got to look it up.
I remember that was the firsttime I ever saw someone do
something cool and weird andcrazy in this industry and my
dad thought he was nuts and hewas nuts and everybody loved it.
And so 25 years later, howeverlong I think it was in the like
95 and he still is therefiguring out.
You know it's other peopleobviously now, but I was in one
of my customers in Georgia, alumber yard, one of my customers
(29:58):
in Georgia Lumberyard, and theyhave a great Southern wood,
yellow wood container and Ithought you know they made
pressure treated lumber, whichis the plainest, most boring
thing, cool and branded, whereyou look for a color tag and you
see something much like a pinkhat and you know what it is
right and that matters to peopleand they remember it, whether
(30:18):
they subconsciously orconsciously know.
But like, for instance, theyhave a box that they have right
now that says what in tarnation?
Who uses the word tarnation?
Well, we do, because we'reSoutherners.
We know what that was.
I saw that and I was like youknow what that's hilarious and
it was at that customer's and itwas in the floor and it had
KDAT wood and it said what intarnation?
And I thought that's different.
(30:39):
It's funny.
People that are Southerncontractors get that that
probably wouldn't fly inCalifornia.
I don't know if they would knowwhat the heck that even means.
Do you say tarnation inCalifornia?
Matthew Spinks (30:51):
Probably not.
I think it depends on what partof California you go to.
Stefanie Couch (30:55):
But that's the thing is, they understand their
market and they're willing to goout and they're willing to do
something that might not work,that people might talk about
them for but what if they talkabout you because you're the
coolest, most memorable thing?
Matthew Spinks (31:09):
I have people that come in our store and they
they want yellow wood becausethey believe it's the best.
Frankly, it's the sametreatment for the most part as
anybody else's.
Now they may buy better wood,you know.
If you want to get down tospecifics, but the patent has
probably run out now.
I mean you have to.
I mean it's like a mandatedcode that you have to keep for
(31:32):
wood, and so they want yellowwood.
And so the funniest thing forme that I always pick up on, and
it's so small but my OCD brainpicks it up but when they have
the piece of wood on thecommercial and they go to staple
the tag on it, the stapler ispointed the opposite direction
from the staples when it goes in.
And I'm always, I alwaysremember that I'm like yellow
(31:55):
wood.
That's it before I ever evencarried it and Milwaukee is
another you know, you have a redzone in your store.
Stefanie Couch (32:02):
Tell me a little bit about the red zone.
Matthew Spinks (32:04):
So the red zone was actually I can't take all
the credit for it because thereis a company in Columbus, ohio,
called Ohio Power Tool thatstarted as a small mom and pop
store that became, throughrevolutionizing, became one of
the at the time one of thebiggest online retailers for
power tools, and it was that'skind of what sparked it, and so
(32:30):
they had red floors and all that.
And so what I did was I waslike, hey, nobody around here
carries Milwaukee, nobodycarries Diablo, and it's got
this huge following and I'm likewe need this, everybody wants
it.
They're traveling Lord knowshow many miles to go get it.
Thankfully, through somevulnerability, through some
(32:53):
personnel changes, I wasactually able to have the leeway
to implement that.
And so, just judging off of thethousands of dollars I had spent
personally on those power tools, I built it piece by piece and
ran off of promos with Do itBest or Milwaukee Direct, and
that has been a huge winner forus because we tapped into a
(33:17):
niche that was not tapped intoand since then has everybody.
You look around the corner andeverybody's got Milwaukee now,
but you still have to line upand put your pads on and play
football, yeah, 100%.
And so we still have people thatcome from across the state that
have heard Lumber King Dam wasthe place to come by Milwaukee.
Stefanie Couch (33:38):
That's super cool.
Matthew Spinks (33:38):
And that's not our bread and butter only, but
it has certainly been what we'vebeen known for here lately.
That's cool.
I can remember looking at ourP&L statements for the year and,
although this is not what ourstore grossed, our inside sales
only tapped out at like a littleover $10,000 in 2021.
(34:02):
Then you take, whenever I wasable to kind of do, the
Milwaukee and the Diablo and itwent from half a year, so from
21 at $10,000, 22, only partiala year.
With Milwaukee we were alreadyover 70,000.
In the last two years we'vebeen considerably over 350,000.
(34:23):
Wow, that's amazing, and youknow our store is an old fucking
transfer station, built in the50s, that does not scream hey,
come shop here millennials.
And so that comment's been madea lot, but you know you still,
if you line up, you do it rightand you have the right goal in
mind.
Stefanie Couch (34:41):
Yeah.
Matthew Spinks (34:43):
We found a lot of success for it to where uh
all of our stores in our companynow carry uh they.
They stock Milwaukee and as acompany the last two years we've
been right around a milliondollars in Milwaukee as far as
sales, red zones, making you alot of green.
Yeah, I love it, I want to endwith two last questions.
Stefanie Couch (35:02):
So tell me a little bit about being a Do it
Best store.
Talk to me about why you lovebeing a Do it Best partner and
what that is for your business.
Matthew Spinks (35:10):
Do it Best.
As my career has progressed, myrelationship with them has
gotten a lot closer, and Do itBest is one of those special
companies and I do say specialbecause every person that I've
talked to that has been employedat that company has been
nothing but outstandingly nice,like they're overwhelmingly
(35:33):
pushy to help you and I saypushy and maybe that's not the
right word, but they're allabout building your better brand
, and rightfully so.
The better you are, the betterthey are, sure, but they're all
about the success of others,which creates success for
everybody, and so everybody frommy rep, drew Banyas he's been
one of the best coaches andmentors that I could have ever
(35:57):
asked for.
We really connect on our idealsand things and we've had some
similar paths.
That's awesome, and so it'snice that way, all up to the
academies and the trainings thatthey provide by bringing
individuals like yourself andBradley Hartman and just giving
(36:17):
you the best opportunities theycan for you to learn and be
better stewards of our industry,and that's you know, all in all
I mean, and you can take thespecifics of what it means to be
a Do it Best member as your owncompany, but just, there's not
really a whole lot like them outthere.
Stefanie Couch (36:34):
Yeah, they're great and I think they're always
trying to push to make sure.
Like you said, what do you needto make your brand better?
Because, hey, if our customerswin, you win and your customers
win, it's all good, it all comesback right in the wash.
That's for sure, all right.
Well, last question is you areaward winning retailer of the
year this year, socongratulations on that.
(36:55):
If you were starting out in thebusiness and you were going to
tell someone who was a youngretailer some advice, what one
piece of advice would you givethem?
Matthew Spinks (37:04):
The one piece of advice that I would that I
actually I do give a lot isactually don't be afraid to
invest in yourself.
Take the experience along withwith invest in higher education
and that doesn't meanautomatically going to college
or doing anything like that, butinvest in the resources that
(37:26):
the NHPA offer you.
Invest in buying products onyour own money, in your own time
, researching YouTube.
Those are all things that I did, but, depending on who you ask,
everybody's got differentopinions.
You know, depending on who youask, everybody's got different
opinions.
But in my opinion, in order tobe a great young retailer, a
great merchant in our industrytoday, you really do need both
(37:47):
the experience and the education, and you need to mix both
worlds, because there are a lotof old timers out there that can
give you fantastic advice, butthere's also things that they
don't know that are changing,yeah, and so you can become the
best of both worlds, as long asyou're able to adapt.
And to boil it all down, themain thing I tell them is invest
(38:08):
in yourself to make yourselfmore marketable for companies
that are going to hire you.
Yeah, you know, not everybodyis going to.
You know, at least up to mypoint be a be a lifer or a 10
year person in a company.
But you know there arecompanies out there looking for
people because nobody's beatingthe doors down to get into this
industry.
Stefanie Couch (38:28):
They don't realize how much opportunity is
out there.
I think that's a great point tosay that, basically, you are a
brand yourself and the more youcan invest in it and the more
you can do.
There's no returns that aregreater than the return on
investment in yourself.
And the more you can invest init and the more you can do,
there's no returns that aregreater than the return on
investment in yourself.
That's right.
Because you'll put everythinginto you know anything else, any
other channel, and you get 100%of the payback that you put
(38:51):
into yourself and your owndevelopment.
So I love that answer.
I think it's very, very smart.
So I have enjoyed talking toyou.
I think we probably could havedone like an eight hour podcast.
So I really appreciate it andcongratulations on all your
success.
I know you're going to bewildly successful as you
continue to grow.
I'm excited to continue,hopefully, to collaborate and
follow your story.
(39:12):
So thank you so much for beingon the Grit Blueprint and have a
great time in Orlando.
Matthew Spinks (39:17):
Thank you for having me.
I'd love to be back again thisis a blast, awesome, thank you.
Stefanie Couch (39:21):
Thank you for listening to the Grit Blueprint
podcast.
If this episode helped youthink a little differently about
how to show up, share it withsomeone in your building world
who needs it.
If you're ready to turnvisibility into growth, then
head to gritblueprintcom tolearn more and book a call to
talk to us about your growthstrategy.
(39:42):
Until next time, stayunmistakable.
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