November 18, 2025 • 39 mins
What if the most overlooked parts of your house are the biggest levers for comfort, safety, and long-term value? I sit down with John Crosby, president and CEO of the Window & Door Manufacturers Association (WDMA), to unpack how high-performance windows, doors, and skylights can shift from commodity to everyday upgrade, and what it will take to get there.
We trace the path from policy to performance, revealing why standards and model codes often decide market outcomes long before a product hits the shelf. John breaks down the real story on tariffs and pricing and how advocacy must balance public good with workable timelines. We examine the housing affordability crisis through a pragmatic lens: adding capacity and efficiency without sacrificing margins or jobs, and orchestrating a labor transition as veteran expertise retires. The takeaway is practical and urgent. Workforce development must move beyond slogans into hands-on pathways that prove modern manufacturing is safe, valuable, and future-forward.
We also get tactical about the tools leaders can control. AI and robotics can lift plant productivity and employee experience when paired with smart processes and clear metrics. A digital-first association can amplify member voices and turn data into decisions. And perhaps most importantly, the industry’s story needs a refresh: consumers don’t buy U-factors, they buy how a home feels. Direct-to-consumer education, values-based messaging, and brand experiences that connect benefits to daily life can unlock adoption at scale.
Topics we cover:
• Mission to accelerate adoption of high-performance windows, doors, and skylights across North America
• Standards and model codes as the real battleground, not just federal legislation
• Tariffs, pricing signals, and avoiding panic-driven decisions
• Housing affordability and scaling without crushing margins
• Workforce development, aging expertise, and practical on-ramps
• Robotics and AI to boost safety, quality, and throughput
• Digital strategy and non-dues revenue to strengthen advocacy
• Data and insights to guide leaders and align the market
• DTC demand, values-based storytelling, and consumer education
• Five-year vision: fenestration as a quality-of-life upgrade
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Crosby (00:00):
This industry is in an existential moment.
Stefanie Couch (00:02):
It's hard to solve a problem you don't know
you have even if someone elseknows you have it.
John Crosby (00:06):
Our mission is to promote the adoption of
high-performance windows, doors,and skylights in all kinds of
projects across uh NorthAmerica.
We need to find a way to focuson workforce development and
then a hands-on understanding ofjust how cool it can be to be
in this industry.
The complexity is fragile asmuch as it's difficult to
(00:27):
comprehend.
Stefanie Couch (00:28):
Melding that together is sort of a bridge,
and you seem like you're quitethe bridge.
John Crosby (00:33):
If we can move in the direction of educating
consumers about what it means tohave a quality experience in
your home through windows anddoors and skylights, I think
we're going to change theperception of what it means to
own a home.
Stefanie Couch (00:47):
Welcome to the Grit Blueprint Podcast, the
playbook for buildingunmistakable brands that grow,
lead, and last in the builtworld.
I'm Stephanie Couch, thefounder of Grit Blueprint.
And I'm a lifelong buildingindustry insider.
I was raised here, built mycareer here, and now my team and
(01:08):
I help others win here.
The truth is, you can be thebest option in your space and
still lose to someone else whosimply shows up better and more
consistently.
Each week on the GritBlueprint, I'm going to show you
how to stand out, earn trust,and turn your brand into a
competitive advantage thatlasts.
(01:30):
If you're ready to be seen,known, chosen, and become
unmistakable, you're in theright place.
Let's get started.
Thank you for joining me onthis episode of the Grit
Blueprint Podcast.
I am your host, StephanieCouch, and I am here today, live
in Boston, with my friend JohnCrosby from WDMA.
(01:50):
You are the president and CEOof the Window and Door
Manufacturing Association.
Welcome to the show.
John Crosby (01:56):
Thank you.
I'm happy to be here.
And when you say it that way, Iwent, wow, I really am the
president and CEO of the Windowand Door Manufacturing
Association.
Stefanie Couch (02:04):
It's always better coming from someone else.
It is.
I love that.
Well, we just wrapped up a bigtwo days for you and your team
and the association.
We're here at the executivemanagement conference, and we
had a day and a half of contentand great conversation with the
people who are really leadingour industry, which is exciting
to be around because there's somany different companies, so
(02:25):
many different leaders that Ihadn't gotten the chance to
meet.
How are you feeling right now?
John Crosby (02:30):
I am more energized than when I showed up.
That's awesome.
I had butterflies when I showedup because you know you come in
first time with the executivesin this industry in the room,
and you don't want to screw up.
First impression will last.
But we were prepared.
Um I helped build the contentfor the conference.
(02:52):
I actually took some time toask the CEOs what they wanted
and expected from the event.
Unfortunately, I got oneresponse.
Stefanie Couch (03:01):
Yeah.
John Crosby (03:01):
But they're busy.
It didn't matter.
My instincts were correct aboutwhat they need to hear.
I have a passion for thisindustry, and it is not because
I've been in it for a long time.
It's because of the people.
The people I've gotten to knowin this industry are just good,
smart people who know how tomake good product.
Stefanie Couch (03:18):
It's an exciting time to be in the industry too,
because I think there's a lotof uh challenges and a lot of
opportunities for us to dosomething different.
So I want to talk a little bitabout you and your background.
You just started in this roleabout a year ago, but you've
been in the industry a longtime, like you said, but you
kind of had a different paththan a lot of people I've talked
to.
You came through the hill, youwere just a bill in the hill.
(03:40):
That's true.
And you then worked through uhseveral different associations.
You've worked with a lot ofdifferent great companies.
So tell me a little bit aboutJohn and your story of how you
got to where you are.
John Crosby (03:51):
Okay.
So I first of all, I am steepedand rooted in the policy realm,
uh, a government degree fromthe College of William and Mary.
I was inspired by ThomasJefferson because he was one of
the first alums of the college.
But I also had been toWashington, D.C.
as a child, and this is where Iwant to live.
(04:11):
I want to be involved in whathappens in this town.
Fast forward, uh, I get thatpolicy experience, and I begin
lobbying.
Um, and I was lobbying for somereally arcane organizations I
won't even get into, but thereality is what I learned was
I'm more of a communicator thana policy wonk.
I get policy.
I can interpret it, I cananalyze it, but talking about it
(04:34):
and helping everyone elseunderstand it because it can be
confusing, that's where my vibewas.
And so I actually got out oflobbying and started working in
communications and then byextension marketing in
associations, but related to thepolicy realm.
The conversion into theconstruction industry was a
(04:55):
little bit happenstance.
So Hanleywood Media had uhsigned a strategic partnership
with the American Institute ofArchitects, and Frank Anton,
their longtime CEO at the time,said to me, We don't know a damn
thing about associations, andwe definitely don't know much
about architects.
And I said, I'm here to help.
(05:15):
I don't know architects reallywell either, but I can help on
the association side.
And I learned so much from, I'dsay it, I have a master's
degree from HanleywoodUniversity because I got to know
the construction industry in away that I never would have been
able to.
Um so that's how I got into it.
My path is very much rooted inone thing.
(05:37):
Uh I associations tend to bequasi-government agencies.
People are not interested intalking about profit, they're
interested in talking aboutmission.
And I've always tilted againstthat windmill and told everyone
no money, no mission.
So I moved out ofcommunications and got into
business development because Isaw that there was a grave need
(06:00):
to lead in these organizationswhere I worked on generat
revenue that was missionfocused.
Unfortunately, because the wayassociations are, I also moved
on three times and went to thecorporate world because I felt
like I needed to connect withthe Borg on that.
You know, I needed to be in anenvironment where it's nope,
profit is the motive here.
(06:20):
Okay, we are here to makemoney.
And I learned those lessons andthen went back to associations
because of it.
Um, so I it is a crooked stickapproach, but that I will tell
you, it's defined who I am, andit's why I can sit in the room
with those CEOs like we didtoday and talk business.
I can talk politics, I can talkpolicy, and in the end, make
(06:41):
sure they know that they'regonna have a profitable
organization when it's all saidand done.
Stefanie Couch (06:46):
Yeah, today was actually really interesting.
I was sitting right behind youand I got to watch some of the
things that were being talkedabout and happening, and you are
quite the communicator, but Iliked the balance of not too
politically, you know, the thelobbyist idea that I've been in
Washington, I don't understandthe reality of what's happening
in the in the rest of the loweror the other 50 states, I guess
(07:09):
since Washington, DC is not astate.
But at the end of the day, youget that, and so you can balance
it.
And I think people, I saw a lotof respect for that.
And uh it's it's fun to watchthat happen when someone has the
balance.
I I kind of feel the same way.
Like I understand the industry,but I'm wildly wildly different
than the rest of the industry,and so melding that together is
(07:29):
sort of a bridge, and you seemlike you're quite the bridge.
John Crosby (07:33):
I appreciate that.
I didn't even think of it thatway, and uh it starts from I I
am a pleaser by nature.
Um, it's something I have towatch out for because you can
make mistakes and you knowsuffer mortal wounds from it.
But my first intention in a ina position like this is I have a
(07:54):
mission to serve and anindustry to serve, and I can't
do that unless I have theirtrust and their respect.
And I the only way I'm gonnaget those is to earn it.
So you're right.
I mean, the reputation of alobbyist typically is I know
better than you.
And you just need to fall inline behind me and I'll get you
where you need to go.
Sure.
Unfortunately, there are toomany industries that are or
(08:16):
companies that are just too dumbenough to realize they're
spending a lot of money on hiredguns and maybe get a result,
but the short, it's a pyrrhicvictory more often than not.
So I it's it's always going tobe intentional and with them
having the opportunity to tellme what I should be doing rather
than the other way around.
Stefanie Couch (08:34):
Well, I do want to talk a little bit about
advocacy as a greater topicbecause I think, in my
perception from my 25, 30 yearsin the industry actively, I
don't think about that as muchbecause I'm not on the
manufacturing side.
I was on the distribution sideand the dealer side, and I know
that that's super important.
But for someone like me thatmaybe doesn't have a huge level
(08:57):
of experience with that, what isthe Window and Door
Manufacturing Association'smission?
Number one.
And then number two, how areyou in 2025?
What are the things you'rethinking about the most?
And how are you impacting thosethings the most or hoping to at
least?
John Crosby (09:13):
Okay, so our mission is to promote the
adoption of high-performancewindows, doors, and skylights uh
at in all kinds of projectsacross uh North America.
It's not just the UnitedStates, it is Canada as well.
That's a loaded statement.
There's a lot underneath that.
Um, but when it's all said anddone, everything we're supposed
(09:34):
to be fighting for is meant topush uh better into the
marketplace.
And we all know this, thatdoesn't happen all the time.
So uh our message, our uh anyof our initiatives, any of our
uh lobbying work, but also codesand standards work is pushed in
the direction of notunreasonable advancement of
(09:56):
adoption, but reasonable costversus value-based or cost
versus impact-based adoption ofthose products.
I mentioned to the CEOs todayabout over-commoditization.
And it a lot of that has to dowith the fact that we've been
pushed in the direction ofoffering a variety of product
(10:16):
qualities and um it's not justtypes, it's qualities.
And I think that has alsodamaged our ability to advance
high performance window-door andskylight adoption.
So, from an advocacystandpoint, that word doesn't
just mean legislation.
It is rooted all the way downto the standards level, which
(10:37):
means, yes, we do develop someof our own standards, but we are
advocating for better in uh youknow NFPA standards and ASHRAY
standards, anything that's goingto affect our member companies'
products.
And again, not to just get ourway, but to make sure it's going
to leverage the highestadoption of the best product
(10:57):
available.
You extend that into buildingcodes, and we're not an advocate
at the state level with codesofficials.
We we kind of stop at thewater's edge on that.
But on model code development,we are right in it with
everybody else.
Uh our my team is amazing onthat front.
They've forgotten more than Iwill ever know on code, but it's
(11:19):
a huge part of it that even theexecutives in in our membership
don't always process.
They pay attention to thegovernmental, regulatory, and
legislative stuff because it'sbig and it's it could have
cross-cutting impact.
Right.
That's where we've typicallybeen at the federal level, but
the shift in politics in thiscountry in the past year has
(11:42):
shown the way for, inparticular, blue states, but a
lot of purple states to get moreaggressive on policymaking in
areas where it's not gonna getdone in uh in DC.
Stefanie Couch (11:54):
Yeah.
John Crosby (11:54):
So we're now having, we're forced to have to
pivot that way and think aboutplaying whack-a-mole against 50
states.
Stefanie Couch (12:00):
Yeah, the states are getting really important.
And also uh every state, if youthink about from a
manufacturing perspective, whatthese companies are gonna have
to do to service all 50 stateswhen all 50 states have
different, it's like 50 peoplethat want something on a menu
that's not on the menu, and thechef's got to figure out how to
cook it.
John Crosby (12:20):
Exactly right.
Stefanie Couch (12:21):
It's uh, and you hope you have the right
ingredients.
John Crosby (12:23):
Yeah, it's not an assembly line like McDonald's
where every burger is gonna lookand technically taste the same.
Uh they are somewhat copycat,you know, in the in their
behaviors on policy, but we'veseen it this year with PFOS and
PFOS restrictions at the statelevel.
Um, states you would thinkwould be completely identical in
(12:45):
their politics with verydifferent policy coming out of
their rulemaking processes.
So we have to read every singleproposed rulemaking and find
the commonalities and thedistinctions, and then map that
against, okay, exactly what isit that the members keep saying
that they want out of this?
And by the way, what theyreally want is time.
They're not inclined to say,let's fight against banning
(13:08):
PFOS.
That's a moral issue.
It's can we do this on atimeline that's reasonable and
achievable?
Stefanie Couch (13:14):
Yeah.
John Crosby (13:14):
I would love for us to be focusing more on a
campaign around, you know,reviving the popularity of low-e
glass because it really is, itremains a game changer that most
Americans have no clue about.
I would love to be getting intothat conversation at the um the
regulatory level or with codesofficials instead of playing
defense on PFOS.
(13:35):
It just common sense regulationwill be fine for everyone.
We just gotta figure out thepathway to get there.
Stefanie Couch (13:41):
It's gonna be an interesting year with all that
going down.
I I realized a little bit ofit, but it's uh way deeper than
I even quite realized.
So it's gonna be a reallyinteresting year.
You're gonna be very busy,John.
John Crosby (13:52):
It is going to be very busy, and my team is
already lean and mean.
Um, the we punch above ourweight, but we punch above our
weight because the members getinvolved, and that's incredibly
valuable for us.
It's that's you can't buy thatkind of engagement, and you also
can't win the way we can winwith policymakers without the
(14:16):
voice of the members.
Stefanie Couch (14:18):
As a whole in the macro of the window and door
industry, what do you hear?
And not just from necessarilythe members or people today, but
what do you hear that are thethings that are keeping people
up at night besides all theseregulations of the states?
We already know that.
What what other things areplaguing our industry that
you're either tackling or atleast talking about?
John Crosby (14:38):
So tariffs are absolutely on everyone's mind.
Uh I I have been balancing myreaction and response on tariffs
through the past six months,mainly because you know the
initial threat of it was okay,we're gonna see major price
increases across the the entireindustry.
And we we haven't seen that.
(14:58):
And I I actually cautioned theboard on it from the beginning,
saying, your company may verywell decide to do that.
What I'm worried about isacross the board, the industry
has gone in that direction.
And is it an overreaction?
And as we've learned, the panicthat occurred on Liberation Day
as it was described April 2nd,2025.
Stefanie Couch (15:21):
That's my birthday, by the way.
John Crosby (15:23):
No way.
Okay, okay, now I know nextyear on Liberation Day, we gotta
wish Stephanie.
Stefanie Couch (15:30):
I was literally liberated.
You were.
John Crosby (15:33):
Oh my gosh.
So no tariff involved.
No, no tariffs.
Uh let's get back to that.
Um, no, we need no tariffs.
Um, no, I there was a lot ofpanic amongst uh in particular
the people in our leadership whoare not, you know, boots on the
ground talking to distributorsand dealers and and builders and
(15:57):
architects.
I got a sense that the peoplewho actually were doing that
really had a different feel forthings.
And as things, as time passed,it was it's become clear, yes,
at some point, uh priceincreases are inevitable.
Inflation is just going toaffect us.
So I I've taken the approach ofI will do everything I can to
(16:18):
find to represent, to haveconversations, put the member in
front to have that dialogue,but ultimately also serve as a
bit of a therapist back to theindustry to say, calm down.
This is not, we're not in anexistential moment yet.
So tariffs is is chief amongthose topics.
I would say the other part ofthis, the housing affordability
(16:39):
crisis in this country ismassive, and the government is
not going to solve this problemon its own.
I kind of alluded to that inour executive session earlier.
Um anything government tends todo warps and distorts markets.
Um, and it typically drives updemand.
I've had a lot of conversationsinside the membership about
(17:02):
what we can do, or how should wecoal as forces within the
industry, especially on theproduct side, to have the
conversation about what it takesto get a million houses built,
or maybe it's three millionhouses built that are
affordable, um, that don'tdamage margins in a way that you
know manufacturers or buildersare gonna suffer.
(17:25):
Um, because let's face it, youcould say we're gonna go out and
do it and we're gonna cut theprice by 30%.
That's most assuredly going toaffect employment across the
entire sector.
I I've heard one member at ourlegislative conference say this
is akin to uh the mobilizationof America after Pearl Harbor.
(17:46):
Can we mobilize that way?
Stefanie Couch (17:48):
Yeah.
John Crosby (17:48):
Can we say we're gonna redeploy factories across
this country in order to getmore product built so we can get
homes built and put some reliefinto the market on price?
That's how bad this is rightnow.
Stefanie Couch (18:01):
Um one thing that I was gonna ask you because
it is quite the juxtaposition.
So you're talking about themission and and uh being high
performance and high quality andall those things, which I think
are great.
Those also aren't usuallynecessarily the most affordable
things.
That's correct.
How do we balance affordabilitywith quality or excellence and
(18:21):
also, like you said, make it towhere it's a sustainable thing
for the macro and the industryto continue for years to come?
I mean, it's a very hardquestion.
And then the labor market justcontinues to get tougher, and
there's other things happeningaround in the government that
could make that you know harder.
It's a very complicatedsituation.
John Crosby (18:42):
It's incredibly complicated, and pulling any one
string could pull the wholething apart.
So the complexity is fragile asmuch as it's difficult to
comprehend.
I I I I will say this I the thethe CEOs in the room today, I I
didn't honor them enoughbecause they are dealing with an
(19:06):
industry that this isn't anascent industry, this isn't one
looking for 30, 40 percentmargins.
They are holding thingstogether and they're doing it
because it's the right thing todo.
They want to employ people thatyou know they want to get stuff
done, and they obviously wantto maintain profitability.
Having said that, this industryis in a it's an existential
(19:28):
moment.
Um, the fact that laborconstruction labor, uh, the
crisis has persisted for thishas been what, eight, ten years
now?
So it was pre-COVID we weredealing with this.
You know, I think back thenMcKinsey was suggesting that
automation was gonna solve alleveryone's problems, and look
where we are today.
Stefanie Couch (19:46):
Yeah.
John Crosby (19:46):
So I really do think, unfortunately, we're
gonna have to see some economicpain in order for there to be a
realignment of forces that willsolve the challenges we've got.
And that's unfortunate.
But human nature is such thatsometimes you've got to go
through pain before you're gonnaget back to where you need to
be.
Stefanie Couch (20:05):
Yeah, things are always tougher than we want it
to be, it seems.
I I tend to think a lot aboutthe next generation.
That makes this even harderbecause when you walk through
these facilities and theseplants, the people that you see
that are running the industry,even in the Salesforce and the
(20:26):
distribution part of thechannel, not if you're not in
the manufacturing plant, thesepeople are 50, 60, 70.
They've been there 20, 30, 40years.
They are the ones with theknowledge, they're the people
that you go to when something'swrong.
And those people are going tobe retiring.
And that scares me a lot.
John Crosby (20:47):
Yeah.
Stefanie Couch (20:47):
And I haven't quite decided if there is a
solution exactly.
But I do think thinking abouthow people will learn in the
next generation and how to tryto get them to that point to
where they feel comfortable toeven do those jobs.
Maybe they're not going to beas good as 20 years of
experience.
But how do we even get them tobe able to function in that
(21:08):
capacity?
What are your thoughts on that?
How do I mean what's one thingwe could do that might help us
even not solve it, but gettowards a solution that could
help?
John Crosby (21:17):
First and foremost, the middle class of this
country needs to be revived.
Um, we have a we have a socialand cultural malaise in our in
our population that's centeredon uh either starvation or
absolute thriving.
And and and the middle class isit's been eviscerated.
(21:40):
And we got to get back toactually helping people be
comfortable with a middle classway of life because it can be
healthy and it can be you canfeel prosperous um without you
know putting yourself intomassive amounts of debt and
being smart about you knowhaving family and all that
stuff.
I think that's fundamental towhat the country needs to
(22:02):
accomplish.
For our industry, I really andI feel strongly that we need to
find a way to focus on workforcedevelopment in a way that is
not, you know, hey, let'sconduct some massive ad
campaigns and show, you know,high schoolers that it's really
cool to get into you know thetrades and uh in construction in
(22:23):
particular.
What we need is actualinspiration and then hands-on
understanding of just how coolit can be to be in this
industry.
Yeah.
Um, that's a that's a toughthing for us to do.
The federal government hashistorically taken up that
problem every 10 to 15 years.
And it has been far too longsince they did it.
(22:43):
And if we could put federalresources into it in a way
that's going to be meaningful atthe local level, it'll help.
But immigration's got to getsolved too, because immigration
will actually help to feed themiddle class big time here.
Stefanie Couch (23:14):
I do think that AI coming in is going to wipe
out a lot of those uh mid-tier,entry-tier jobs that have been
so easy for people to go out ofcollege or out of high school
into that weren't uh moremanufacturing or any type of
construction industry-relatedjobs.
I believe that this AI wave isgoing to level playing fields in
(23:38):
a lot of ways.
And I think those jobs willbecome more valuable to the next
generation because they aresafer.
You know, you said peoplethought McKenzie thought that
robotics is going to solve allthe problems.
Even if you have automation androbotics and automation can
help, there's a lot of thingsthat a human still has to do in
these plants.
(23:59):
There's a lot of things on ajob site that I don't by the
time you automate it, you couldhave done it seven times with a
human.
So are we really savinganything or are we just doing
this to prove a point that wecould do it?
Um, you know, you think yes, arobot can turn a screw on the
top of a house or something likethat.
But by the time you get itthere and get it positioned and
get, I mean, is it really worthit?
(24:20):
Just walk up the ladder andturn the screw.
And so I think about that a lotbecause I do actually think
that the very thing that willhelp us be more technologically
advanced may drive that valueback towards it.
I think uh about one of thegreat examples is with
anesthesiologists and the peoplethat read radiology, um, both
(24:41):
of those things, but especiallyin radiology, about 2016, there
was a big person that said, stoptraining radiologists because
they're going to be obsoletewith AI.
Well, what actually happenedwas that was true.
They, they, the AI advancedcrazy amounts.
But last year, 4% more peoplewere needed in radiology than
(25:01):
before.
And the reason is because ofthat technology being cheaper,
easier, and so much moreefficient, they actually are
doing more scans than they'veever done before because now
that doctors that might havesent one out of 10 people for
scan is sending 10 out of 10because they can see more, you
know, with the AI.
So it has had the reverseeffect of what we thought it
(25:22):
would have.
And I wonder how many othertimes is that gonna happen with
especially our industry where wethink AI is gonna do something
and it does it, but then theeffect is different than what we
thought it would be.
John Crosby (25:35):
Well, and that that is how innovation occurs.
Uh, there's experimentation andyou know, creativity applied to
a problem.
And you know, I think it thesame thing's gonna happen with
AI in this industry.
It's it's gonna be accidentaldiscoveries from attempting to
accomplish something everyonethinks they ought to be doing
now.
But to your point about AI, allit's gonna take is one of these
(25:58):
companies to step in and say,we're going that way and we're
going hard, and it will be thetipping point.
Stefanie Couch (26:04):
Yeah.
John Crosby (26:04):
And it's going to dramatically change how the
entire industry approaches uhnot just productivity, but
actually growing the business ina way that demonstrates value
to shareholders or owners and umand and also to employees.
To your point, you can create abetter work experience for
(26:25):
people simply by leveraging thetechnology that AI uh provides.
I I would say robotics is stilla thing on the manufacturing
side.
Absolutely.
The investment there needs togrow.
And a good example is CardinalGlass.
They have invested to the hiltin their own proprietary
technology.
They're putting investments inwhere arguably they don't have
(26:47):
to, and they're doing it becausethey they want to.
Yeah.
Their customers are inspired bythat and don't even need to
invest in developing proprietarytechnology.
So we're actually trying tofigure out a way to help the
entire industry understandthere's a smarter way to operate
while retaining your workforceand giving them opportunities to
(27:08):
do more strategic work or moreimpactful work while robotics is
taking care of the heavylifting.
So I think there is a role toplay for WDMA on that front.
Um I think it's gonna depend onwhether there's consensus on
that.
Sure.
We'll see.
Stefanie Couch (27:25):
As you look at the next six to 12 months, now
you're one year in, and nowyou're heading into year two for
you.
What excites you the most aboutwhat you're doing with the
industry and the people and allthose things at WDMA?
John Crosby (27:38):
Becoming a more digitally oriented organization
is I'm I'm energized that thisis a moment where I could land
and say we need to go that wayreally fast.
And there's no argument aboutit.
Everyone kind of gets it thatwe need to do that to increase
engagement with members.
(27:58):
We need to do it to project ouradvocacy messages, to draw more
members into the fold, and togrow what we call non-dues
revenue.
Um, it's crucial because thelast thing I ever want to do is
raise dues.
I think that's just forregressive action.
On the digital side, thatreally energized me.
It is not the first thing Ithought going in, but now after
(28:19):
a year, and and truly havingsome debates with members of our
board about the viability of itand and the reasoning for it,
that's number one on the list.
But the other is data andinsights.
Um, I I had a conversation, I'mgonna give all credit to Chris
Galvin with Anderson.
I sat down with him at IBS thispast February, and I was bold
(28:43):
enough to say to him, Chris, Ireally do think we need to
figure out how we can orientWDMA to serve the industry
better through data collectionand analysis.
And his eyes lit up.
And we talked about it for anhour.
And at the end, I said, truly,given the structure of your
company, it's not publiclytraded or anything like that.
I was concerned you were gonnasay that's a bad idea or we may
(29:06):
have to push back on that.
No.
He sees the future for thisindustry and says, if we don't
start doing things like that,we're gonna put ourselves, all
of us, at a competitivedisadvantage.
Right.
So I we're not moving atlightning speed on data
collection and analysis, but weare moving purposefully in that
direction.
The hope and belief is that bythe end of the first quarter, we
(29:29):
will have conducted, it's it'sessentially a census of the
industry, an economic impactstudy.
Um, I call that the Trojanhorse of data collection because
it you need it for advocacywork, but the intel you gather
from that is massive.
And I I can't wait.
I'm gonna get phone calls fromall these research organizations
asking us to sell them thedata, and I'm not gonna do it
(29:52):
because that's not the thing youdo.
Stefanie Couch (29:53):
Um, I'm so excited about that because there
isn't really anything likethat.
I mean, there's some things outthere in different
organizations that have touchedthat, but nothing around that.
I hope you do some umconversations about brand and
some of the things that I liketo talk about because I would
love to see some information onthat and how people view that.
And going towards thatconversation, you and I have
(30:15):
talked a lot in our last sixmonths of knowing.
Other about the importance offor our industry being something
that you know and you'reseeing, and what are your
thoughts on that?
How important is the nextgeneration of our industry, the
leaders that are here, they'renot going to be able to stand on
reputation alone.
They have for a long time.
And that is how the marketmoved, and that's how things
(30:39):
were done, and it's not anymore.
What are your thoughts on thatand the importance of shifting
our perspective there?
John Crosby (30:46):
Well, first, and I think this came about in the in
the presentation you gave today.
I I think thedirect-to-consumer model is
going to evolve rapidly withinour sector.
And I think that is a greatthing.
Um, I mentionedovercommoditization earlier.
Consumers are notovercommodizing our product.
(31:06):
It's the builder, it's to someextent the architect, the
distributor.
If we can move in the directionof educating consumers about
what it means to have a qualityexperience in your home through
windows and doors and skylights,I think we're going to change
the perception of what it meansto own a home.
There are just so many facetsto the equation that we can
(31:29):
bring up.
And I'm not even talking abouttechnology advancements that no
one's willing to take the riskson, or if they are, it's in
their RD programs and they scrapthem.
That's the part where I've I'veactually said to every CEO in
individual conversations, youknow, I want to see when one of
our member companies is pushingout that product that has
electrochromatic shading and ithas a mobile app connected to
(31:52):
all of the windows so you canactually manually manipulate
them, open and close them.
You know, turn your windows anddoors into applications so that
everyone wants them.
Stefanie Couch (32:05):
Yeah.
John Crosby (32:07):
That's the vision I have for the future.
For the next six months, thatis not in the cards.
But we do want to be able topush them in that direction
because if they're if they'reconsidering a better state,
they're going to aim for it.
But first is I think gettingpast the the intermediators that
are involved.
That's what's happened in othersectors.
Stefanie Couch (32:27):
Well, and from my perspective, being in that
channel for so long, you gotowards the easy route or what
you know.
And then the distributors andthe dealers and the even
contractors, like you said, theyhave favorites because of their
comfortability with them.
Like you might see a betterproduct and you might know it's
better, and you know that thingis something you should learn
(32:48):
about, but you already know thisthing is proven.
And so it's how do you considerthe stories and the values of
what they actually care aboutand then build something around
that that catches the attentionenough to make them want to know
more or to make them want toremember it.
And I don't think we do a greatjob as an industry of that.
We think so much about thetechnical and the features and
(33:08):
benefits, that is not how peoplebuy.
And so if we can start to thinkabout how actually people buy,
which is more, way moreemotional than logical, and we
can tap into that, then theystart to care about once you get
down the line, the features andthe benefits.
But it can't be what we leadwith, and it always has been.
John Crosby (33:27):
That's a fact.
You know, our keynote todayfocused on values alignment with
customers.
And if we extrapolate to theend user of a building, of a
home, or whatever structure, andconsider what their experience
is like and what their valuesare as a part of being in that
(33:47):
structure, it's pretty easy toconnect the dots to why better
performing products from ourindustry can be preferred and
outright purchase.
There is a logical flow to thatargument.
Yeah.
Um that's that's a part ofmarketing that I think in this
industry everyone thinks is waytoo soft, and it's not.
(34:10):
It's very direct and impactfulto the message that a consumer
would want to hear.
Stefanie Couch (34:15):
Well, I'll bring uh the unsoftest person I've
ever read about into the story.
Whether you love him or hatehim, Elon Musk is not someone I
would consider to be soft.
He literally uses the wordhardcore all the time.
That's what he calls himself.
But he actually says thatshowmanship is salesmanship, and
he talks about the power ofstories and connecting, and you
(34:35):
have to make people payattention.
Steve Jobs was the same way.
They're both ruthless founders.
They they were not known forbeing real empathetic.
But at the end of the day, ifthey know that and they
understand that, then I wouldbelieve that we all could take a
cue from that of there'ssomething here.
And even Warren Buffett talksabout storytelling.
And so I think we have tofigure out a way to do that.
John Crosby (34:59):
And there's a there's a connective tissue to
that and the challenge that wehave.
And it Steve Jobs said it.
I'm not interested inunderstanding what my customer
wants.
I want to tell them what theywant.
I want to produce andanticipate what they are going
to need.
Yes.
The same can be applied to ourindustry.
(35:19):
What is what is the end usergonna need or want in the future
that they don't even realizenow?
Stefanie Couch (35:25):
It's hard to solve a problem you don't know
you have, even if someone elseknows you have it.
John Crosby (35:29):
That's correct.
But once you can see a desiredend state, you want more of it
than anybody else.
And I do believe if we canadopt more of an uh an
innovative culture and honestlyadopt some risk taking in the
process, I I think you could seesome transformations happen in
this industry.
Unfortunately, it's probablygoing to lead to more
(35:49):
consolidation, but uh it is whatit is.
We can't stop that.
Stefanie Couch (35:54):
Inevitability.
I don't I don't see how you getaround that with the way that
the market and all the thefinances out there are working.
I'm just don't andmanufacturing is hard and it's a
little easier with scale.
And the bigger the scale gets,the easier it gets.
The bigger the stick, theeasier it is to swing, I guess.
Yep.
So I have one last question foryou.
Sure.
If we are here in five yearsand we're talking about you and
(36:18):
WDMA, um hopeful hopefully bythen you have a pink hat to go
with your pink jacket.
But if we're talking aboutwhat's happened, what do you
hope is true and what do youwant to be true for you and for
WDMA in five years?
John Crosby (36:32):
I hope that what we are seeing is um is actually an
evolution is taking place inthe the mind of the average
American about the importance ofI'm gonna use the word
fenestration, but I'm onlybecause we're all in the
industry.
The importance of fenestrationfor a lot of reasons.
(36:55):
For performance, sure, but it'sso boring to talk about energy
performance.
It's how does that windowperform to improve your quality
of life and the experience ofyour home?
Um, I I hope that we haveevolved to the point where the
average American sees that andsays, wow, all this time I
didn't even realize that.
And now I have increased valueabout my own home because of it.
(37:18):
Um so I would like to think infive years we've achieved that.
We've gotten to middle Americawith the message that those
things in your house that youdidn't have a choice over can be
changed and you can getsomething you'll be proud of.
So that's what I hope for.
The other question was Whatabout for you personally?
Me personally.
Well, first of all, I do hopeI'm still here.
(37:39):
Um, I I have no intentions of,you know, a lot of people in the
association space will workthree years and then find the
next gig.
I took this job because knowingit was gonna need up a lot more
of my personal time, um, I tookit because I could sense that I
had a verve for the industryand the people.
And I want to be at thisconference in five years, having
(38:04):
that that session that endedtoday, I want it to be an
absolutely like a hoot nanny.
People butting heads and havingdebates and arguing things, and
in the end, but it being aboutthings that matter and will
shape the future of the industryfor years to come, because I
have facilitated the ground foreveryone to do that in a way
(38:26):
that they're still friendlycompetitors and they're
collegial with one another andtreat each other like family.
That's we get we get more ofwith the same stable foundation
we've got.
Stefanie Couch (38:38):
Well, I think that you are the bridge to make
that happen, and I'm excited,and I hope we are here together
in five years talking about itand doing a lot of great things
for the industry that we bothlove and serve hopefully for a
long time.
John Crosby (38:51):
Let's put it down.
Let's do it.
We will be there.
All right.
Stefanie Couch (38:54):
Well, thank you for joining me on the Grit
Blueprint Podcast, and we willsee you on the next episode.
Thank you for listening to theGrit Blueprint podcast.
If this episode helped youthink a little differently about
how to show up, share it withsomeone in your building world
who needs it.
If you're ready to turnvisibility into growth, then
(39:15):
head to gritblueprint.com tolearn more and book a call to
talk to us about your growthstrategy.
Until next time, stayunmistakable.
This industry is in an existential moment.
Stefanie Couch (00:02):
It's hard to solve a problem you don't know
you have even if someone elseknows you have it.
John Crosby (00:06):
Our mission is to promote the adoption of
high-performance windows, doors,and skylights in all kinds of
projects across uh NorthAmerica.
We need to find a way to focuson workforce development and
then a hands-on understanding ofjust how cool it can be to be
in this industry.
The complexity is fragile asmuch as it's difficult to
(00:27):
comprehend.
Stefanie Couch (00:28):
Melding that together is sort of a bridge,
and you seem like you're quitethe bridge.
John Crosby (00:33):
If we can move in the direction of educating
consumers about what it means tohave a quality experience in
your home through windows anddoors and skylights, I think
we're going to change theperception of what it means to
own a home.
Stefanie Couch (00:47):
Welcome to the Grit Blueprint Podcast, the
playbook for buildingunmistakable brands that grow,
lead, and last in the builtworld.
I'm Stephanie Couch, thefounder of Grit Blueprint.
And I'm a lifelong buildingindustry insider.
I was raised here, built mycareer here, and now my team and
(01:08):
I help others win here.
The truth is, you can be thebest option in your space and
still lose to someone else whosimply shows up better and more
consistently.
Each week on the GritBlueprint, I'm going to show you
how to stand out, earn trust,and turn your brand into a
competitive advantage thatlasts.
(01:30):
If you're ready to be seen,known, chosen, and become
unmistakable, you're in theright place.
Let's get started.
Thank you for joining me onthis episode of the Grit
Blueprint Podcast.
I am your host, StephanieCouch, and I am here today, live
in Boston, with my friend JohnCrosby from WDMA.
(01:50):
You are the president and CEOof the Window and Door
Manufacturing Association.
Welcome to the show.
John Crosby (01:56):
Thank you.
I'm happy to be here.
And when you say it that way, Iwent, wow, I really am the
president and CEO of the Windowand Door Manufacturing
Association.
Stefanie Couch (02:04):
It's always better coming from someone else.
It is.
I love that.
Well, we just wrapped up a bigtwo days for you and your team
and the association.
We're here at the executivemanagement conference, and we
had a day and a half of contentand great conversation with the
people who are really leadingour industry, which is exciting
to be around because there's somany different companies, so
(02:25):
many different leaders that Ihadn't gotten the chance to
meet.
How are you feeling right now?
John Crosby (02:30):
I am more energized than when I showed up.
That's awesome.
I had butterflies when I showedup because you know you come in
first time with the executivesin this industry in the room,
and you don't want to screw up.
First impression will last.
But we were prepared.
Um I helped build the contentfor the conference.
(02:52):
I actually took some time toask the CEOs what they wanted
and expected from the event.
Unfortunately, I got oneresponse.
Stefanie Couch (03:01):
Yeah.
John Crosby (03:01):
But they're busy.
It didn't matter.
My instincts were correct aboutwhat they need to hear.
I have a passion for thisindustry, and it is not because
I've been in it for a long time.
It's because of the people.
The people I've gotten to knowin this industry are just good,
smart people who know how tomake good product.
Stefanie Couch (03:18):
It's an exciting time to be in the industry too,
because I think there's a lotof uh challenges and a lot of
opportunities for us to dosomething different.
So I want to talk a little bitabout you and your background.
You just started in this roleabout a year ago, but you've
been in the industry a longtime, like you said, but you
kind of had a different paththan a lot of people I've talked
to.
You came through the hill, youwere just a bill in the hill.
(03:40):
That's true.
And you then worked through uhseveral different associations.
You've worked with a lot ofdifferent great companies.
So tell me a little bit aboutJohn and your story of how you
got to where you are.
John Crosby (03:51):
Okay.
So I first of all, I am steepedand rooted in the policy realm,
uh, a government degree fromthe College of William and Mary.
I was inspired by ThomasJefferson because he was one of
the first alums of the college.
But I also had been toWashington, D.C.
as a child, and this is where Iwant to live.
(04:11):
I want to be involved in whathappens in this town.
Fast forward, uh, I get thatpolicy experience, and I begin
lobbying.
Um, and I was lobbying for somereally arcane organizations I
won't even get into, but thereality is what I learned was
I'm more of a communicator thana policy wonk.
I get policy.
I can interpret it, I cananalyze it, but talking about it
(04:34):
and helping everyone elseunderstand it because it can be
confusing, that's where my vibewas.
And so I actually got out oflobbying and started working in
communications and then byextension marketing in
associations, but related to thepolicy realm.
The conversion into theconstruction industry was a
(04:55):
little bit happenstance.
So Hanleywood Media had uhsigned a strategic partnership
with the American Institute ofArchitects, and Frank Anton,
their longtime CEO at the time,said to me, We don't know a damn
thing about associations, andwe definitely don't know much
about architects.
And I said, I'm here to help.
(05:15):
I don't know architects reallywell either, but I can help on
the association side.
And I learned so much from, I'dsay it, I have a master's
degree from HanleywoodUniversity because I got to know
the construction industry in away that I never would have been
able to.
Um so that's how I got into it.
My path is very much rooted inone thing.
(05:37):
Uh I associations tend to bequasi-government agencies.
People are not interested intalking about profit, they're
interested in talking aboutmission.
And I've always tilted againstthat windmill and told everyone
no money, no mission.
So I moved out ofcommunications and got into
business development because Isaw that there was a grave need
(06:00):
to lead in these organizationswhere I worked on generat
revenue that was missionfocused.
Unfortunately, because the wayassociations are, I also moved
on three times and went to thecorporate world because I felt
like I needed to connect withthe Borg on that.
You know, I needed to be in anenvironment where it's nope,
profit is the motive here.
(06:20):
Okay, we are here to makemoney.
And I learned those lessons andthen went back to associations
because of it.
Um, so I it is a crooked stickapproach, but that I will tell
you, it's defined who I am, andit's why I can sit in the room
with those CEOs like we didtoday and talk business.
I can talk politics, I can talkpolicy, and in the end, make
(06:41):
sure they know that they'regonna have a profitable
organization when it's all saidand done.
Stefanie Couch (06:46):
Yeah, today was actually really interesting.
I was sitting right behind youand I got to watch some of the
things that were being talkedabout and happening, and you are
quite the communicator, but Iliked the balance of not too
politically, you know, the thelobbyist idea that I've been in
Washington, I don't understandthe reality of what's happening
in the in the rest of the loweror the other 50 states, I guess
(07:09):
since Washington, DC is not astate.
But at the end of the day, youget that, and so you can balance
it.
And I think people, I saw a lotof respect for that.
And uh it's it's fun to watchthat happen when someone has the
balance.
I I kind of feel the same way.
Like I understand the industry,but I'm wildly wildly different
than the rest of the industry,and so melding that together is
(07:29):
sort of a bridge, and you seemlike you're quite the bridge.
John Crosby (07:33):
I appreciate that.
I didn't even think of it thatway, and uh it starts from I I
am a pleaser by nature.
Um, it's something I have towatch out for because you can
make mistakes and you knowsuffer mortal wounds from it.
But my first intention in a ina position like this is I have a
(07:54):
mission to serve and anindustry to serve, and I can't
do that unless I have theirtrust and their respect.
And I the only way I'm gonnaget those is to earn it.
So you're right.
I mean, the reputation of alobbyist typically is I know
better than you.
And you just need to fall inline behind me and I'll get you
where you need to go.
Sure.
Unfortunately, there are toomany industries that are or
(08:16):
companies that are just too dumbenough to realize they're
spending a lot of money on hiredguns and maybe get a result,
but the short, it's a pyrrhicvictory more often than not.
So I it's it's always going tobe intentional and with them
having the opportunity to tellme what I should be doing rather
than the other way around.
Stefanie Couch (08:34):
Well, I do want to talk a little bit about
advocacy as a greater topicbecause I think, in my
perception from my 25, 30 yearsin the industry actively, I
don't think about that as muchbecause I'm not on the
manufacturing side.
I was on the distribution sideand the dealer side, and I know
that that's super important.
But for someone like me thatmaybe doesn't have a huge level
(08:57):
of experience with that, what isthe Window and Door
Manufacturing Association'smission?
Number one.
And then number two, how areyou in 2025?
What are the things you'rethinking about the most?
And how are you impacting thosethings the most or hoping to at
least?
John Crosby (09:13):
Okay, so our mission is to promote the
adoption of high-performancewindows, doors, and skylights uh
at in all kinds of projectsacross uh North America.
It's not just the UnitedStates, it is Canada as well.
That's a loaded statement.
There's a lot underneath that.
Um, but when it's all said anddone, everything we're supposed
(09:34):
to be fighting for is meant topush uh better into the
marketplace.
And we all know this, thatdoesn't happen all the time.
So uh our message, our uh anyof our initiatives, any of our
uh lobbying work, but also codesand standards work is pushed in
the direction of notunreasonable advancement of
(09:56):
adoption, but reasonable costversus value-based or cost
versus impact-based adoption ofthose products.
I mentioned to the CEOs todayabout over-commoditization.
And it a lot of that has to dowith the fact that we've been
pushed in the direction ofoffering a variety of product
(10:16):
qualities and um it's not justtypes, it's qualities.
And I think that has alsodamaged our ability to advance
high performance window-door andskylight adoption.
So, from an advocacystandpoint, that word doesn't
just mean legislation.
It is rooted all the way downto the standards level, which
(10:37):
means, yes, we do develop someof our own standards, but we are
advocating for better in uh youknow NFPA standards and ASHRAY
standards, anything that's goingto affect our member companies'
products.
And again, not to just get ourway, but to make sure it's going
to leverage the highestadoption of the best product
(10:57):
available.
You extend that into buildingcodes, and we're not an advocate
at the state level with codesofficials.
We we kind of stop at thewater's edge on that.
But on model code development,we are right in it with
everybody else.
Uh our my team is amazing onthat front.
They've forgotten more than Iwill ever know on code, but it's
(11:19):
a huge part of it that even theexecutives in in our membership
don't always process.
They pay attention to thegovernmental, regulatory, and
legislative stuff because it'sbig and it's it could have
cross-cutting impact.
Right.
That's where we've typicallybeen at the federal level, but
the shift in politics in thiscountry in the past year has
(11:42):
shown the way for, inparticular, blue states, but a
lot of purple states to get moreaggressive on policymaking in
areas where it's not gonna getdone in uh in DC.
Stefanie Couch (11:54):
Yeah.
John Crosby (11:54):
So we're now having, we're forced to have to
pivot that way and think aboutplaying whack-a-mole against 50
states.
Stefanie Couch (12:00):
Yeah, the states are getting really important.
And also uh every state, if youthink about from a
manufacturing perspective, whatthese companies are gonna have
to do to service all 50 stateswhen all 50 states have
different, it's like 50 peoplethat want something on a menu
that's not on the menu, and thechef's got to figure out how to
cook it.
John Crosby (12:20):
Exactly right.
Stefanie Couch (12:21):
It's uh, and you hope you have the right
ingredients.
John Crosby (12:23):
Yeah, it's not an assembly line like McDonald's
where every burger is gonna lookand technically taste the same.
Uh they are somewhat copycat,you know, in the in their
behaviors on policy, but we'veseen it this year with PFOS and
PFOS restrictions at the statelevel.
Um, states you would thinkwould be completely identical in
(12:45):
their politics with verydifferent policy coming out of
their rulemaking processes.
So we have to read every singleproposed rulemaking and find
the commonalities and thedistinctions, and then map that
against, okay, exactly what isit that the members keep saying
that they want out of this?
And by the way, what theyreally want is time.
They're not inclined to say,let's fight against banning
(13:08):
PFOS.
That's a moral issue.
It's can we do this on atimeline that's reasonable and
achievable?
Stefanie Couch (13:14):
Yeah.
John Crosby (13:14):
I would love for us to be focusing more on a
campaign around, you know,reviving the popularity of low-e
glass because it really is, itremains a game changer that most
Americans have no clue about.
I would love to be getting intothat conversation at the um the
regulatory level or with codesofficials instead of playing
defense on PFOS.
(13:35):
It just common sense regulationwill be fine for everyone.
We just gotta figure out thepathway to get there.
Stefanie Couch (13:41):
It's gonna be an interesting year with all that
going down.
I I realized a little bit ofit, but it's uh way deeper than
I even quite realized.
So it's gonna be a reallyinteresting year.
You're gonna be very busy,John.
John Crosby (13:52):
It is going to be very busy, and my team is
already lean and mean.
Um, the we punch above ourweight, but we punch above our
weight because the members getinvolved, and that's incredibly
valuable for us.
It's that's you can't buy thatkind of engagement, and you also
can't win the way we can winwith policymakers without the
(14:16):
voice of the members.
Stefanie Couch (14:18):
As a whole in the macro of the window and door
industry, what do you hear?
And not just from necessarilythe members or people today, but
what do you hear that are thethings that are keeping people
up at night besides all theseregulations of the states?
We already know that.
What what other things areplaguing our industry that
you're either tackling or atleast talking about?
John Crosby (14:38):
So tariffs are absolutely on everyone's mind.
Uh I I have been balancing myreaction and response on tariffs
through the past six months,mainly because you know the
initial threat of it was okay,we're gonna see major price
increases across the the entireindustry.
And we we haven't seen that.
(14:58):
And I I actually cautioned theboard on it from the beginning,
saying, your company may verywell decide to do that.
What I'm worried about isacross the board, the industry
has gone in that direction.
And is it an overreaction?
And as we've learned, the panicthat occurred on Liberation Day
as it was described April 2nd,2025.
Stefanie Couch (15:21):
That's my birthday, by the way.
John Crosby (15:23):
No way.
Okay, okay, now I know nextyear on Liberation Day, we gotta
wish Stephanie.
Stefanie Couch (15:30):
I was literally liberated.
You were.
John Crosby (15:33):
Oh my gosh.
So no tariff involved.
No, no tariffs.
Uh let's get back to that.
Um, no, we need no tariffs.
Um, no, I there was a lot ofpanic amongst uh in particular
the people in our leadership whoare not, you know, boots on the
ground talking to distributorsand dealers and and builders and
(15:57):
architects.
I got a sense that the peoplewho actually were doing that
really had a different feel forthings.
And as things, as time passed,it was it's become clear, yes,
at some point, uh priceincreases are inevitable.
Inflation is just going toaffect us.
So I I've taken the approach ofI will do everything I can to
(16:18):
find to represent, to haveconversations, put the member in
front to have that dialogue,but ultimately also serve as a
bit of a therapist back to theindustry to say, calm down.
This is not, we're not in anexistential moment yet.
So tariffs is is chief amongthose topics.
I would say the other part ofthis, the housing affordability
(16:39):
crisis in this country ismassive, and the government is
not going to solve this problemon its own.
I kind of alluded to that inour executive session earlier.
Um anything government tends todo warps and distorts markets.
Um, and it typically drives updemand.
I've had a lot of conversationsinside the membership about
(17:02):
what we can do, or how should wecoal as forces within the
industry, especially on theproduct side, to have the
conversation about what it takesto get a million houses built,
or maybe it's three millionhouses built that are
affordable, um, that don'tdamage margins in a way that you
know manufacturers or buildersare gonna suffer.
(17:25):
Um, because let's face it, youcould say we're gonna go out and
do it and we're gonna cut theprice by 30%.
That's most assuredly going toaffect employment across the
entire sector.
I I've heard one member at ourlegislative conference say this
is akin to uh the mobilizationof America after Pearl Harbor.
(17:46):
Can we mobilize that way?
Stefanie Couch (17:48):
Yeah.
John Crosby (17:48):
Can we say we're gonna redeploy factories across
this country in order to getmore product built so we can get
homes built and put some reliefinto the market on price?
That's how bad this is rightnow.
Stefanie Couch (18:01):
Um one thing that I was gonna ask you because
it is quite the juxtaposition.
So you're talking about themission and and uh being high
performance and high quality andall those things, which I think
are great.
Those also aren't usuallynecessarily the most affordable
things.
That's correct.
How do we balance affordabilitywith quality or excellence and
(18:21):
also, like you said, make it towhere it's a sustainable thing
for the macro and the industryto continue for years to come?
I mean, it's a very hardquestion.
And then the labor market justcontinues to get tougher, and
there's other things happeningaround in the government that
could make that you know harder.
It's a very complicatedsituation.
John Crosby (18:42):
It's incredibly complicated, and pulling any one
string could pull the wholething apart.
So the complexity is fragile asmuch as it's difficult to
comprehend.
I I I I will say this I the thethe CEOs in the room today, I I
didn't honor them enoughbecause they are dealing with an
(19:06):
industry that this isn't anascent industry, this isn't one
looking for 30, 40 percentmargins.
They are holding thingstogether and they're doing it
because it's the right thing todo.
They want to employ people thatyou know they want to get stuff
done, and they obviously wantto maintain profitability.
Having said that, this industryis in a it's an existential
(19:28):
moment.
Um, the fact that laborconstruction labor, uh, the
crisis has persisted for thishas been what, eight, ten years
now?
So it was pre-COVID we weredealing with this.
You know, I think back thenMcKinsey was suggesting that
automation was gonna solve alleveryone's problems, and look
where we are today.
Stefanie Couch (19:46):
Yeah.
John Crosby (19:46):
So I really do think, unfortunately, we're
gonna have to see some economicpain in order for there to be a
realignment of forces that willsolve the challenges we've got.
And that's unfortunate.
But human nature is such thatsometimes you've got to go
through pain before you're gonnaget back to where you need to
be.
Stefanie Couch (20:05):
Yeah, things are always tougher than we want it
to be, it seems.
I I tend to think a lot aboutthe next generation.
That makes this even harderbecause when you walk through
these facilities and theseplants, the people that you see
that are running the industry,even in the Salesforce and the
(20:26):
distribution part of thechannel, not if you're not in
the manufacturing plant, thesepeople are 50, 60, 70.
They've been there 20, 30, 40years.
They are the ones with theknowledge, they're the people
that you go to when something'swrong.
And those people are going tobe retiring.
And that scares me a lot.
John Crosby (20:47):
Yeah.
Stefanie Couch (20:47):
And I haven't quite decided if there is a
solution exactly.
But I do think thinking abouthow people will learn in the
next generation and how to tryto get them to that point to
where they feel comfortable toeven do those jobs.
Maybe they're not going to beas good as 20 years of
experience.
But how do we even get them tobe able to function in that
(21:08):
capacity?
What are your thoughts on that?
How do I mean what's one thingwe could do that might help us
even not solve it, but gettowards a solution that could
help?
John Crosby (21:17):
First and foremost, the middle class of this
country needs to be revived.
Um, we have a we have a socialand cultural malaise in our in
our population that's centeredon uh either starvation or
absolute thriving.
And and and the middle class isit's been eviscerated.
(21:40):
And we got to get back toactually helping people be
comfortable with a middle classway of life because it can be
healthy and it can be you canfeel prosperous um without you
know putting yourself intomassive amounts of debt and
being smart about you knowhaving family and all that
stuff.
I think that's fundamental towhat the country needs to
(22:02):
accomplish.
For our industry, I really andI feel strongly that we need to
find a way to focus on workforcedevelopment in a way that is
not, you know, hey, let'sconduct some massive ad
campaigns and show, you know,high schoolers that it's really
cool to get into you know thetrades and uh in construction in
(22:23):
particular.
What we need is actualinspiration and then hands-on
understanding of just how coolit can be to be in this
industry.
Yeah.
Um, that's a that's a toughthing for us to do.
The federal government hashistorically taken up that
problem every 10 to 15 years.
And it has been far too longsince they did it.
(22:43):
And if we could put federalresources into it in a way
that's going to be meaningful atthe local level, it'll help.
But immigration's got to getsolved too, because immigration
will actually help to feed themiddle class big time here.
Stefanie Couch (23:14):
I do think that AI coming in is going to wipe
out a lot of those uh mid-tier,entry-tier jobs that have been
so easy for people to go out ofcollege or out of high school
into that weren't uh moremanufacturing or any type of
construction industry-relatedjobs.
I believe that this AI wave isgoing to level playing fields in
(23:38):
a lot of ways.
And I think those jobs willbecome more valuable to the next
generation because they aresafer.
You know, you said peoplethought McKenzie thought that
robotics is going to solve allthe problems.
Even if you have automation androbotics and automation can
help, there's a lot of thingsthat a human still has to do in
these plants.
(23:59):
There's a lot of things on ajob site that I don't by the
time you automate it, you couldhave done it seven times with a
human.
So are we really savinganything or are we just doing
this to prove a point that wecould do it?
Um, you know, you think yes, arobot can turn a screw on the
top of a house or something likethat.
But by the time you get itthere and get it positioned and
get, I mean, is it really worthit?
(24:20):
Just walk up the ladder andturn the screw.
And so I think about that a lotbecause I do actually think
that the very thing that willhelp us be more technologically
advanced may drive that valueback towards it.
I think uh about one of thegreat examples is with
anesthesiologists and the peoplethat read radiology, um, both
(24:41):
of those things, but especiallyin radiology, about 2016, there
was a big person that said, stoptraining radiologists because
they're going to be obsoletewith AI.
Well, what actually happenedwas that was true.
They, they, the AI advancedcrazy amounts.
But last year, 4% more peoplewere needed in radiology than
(25:01):
before.
And the reason is because ofthat technology being cheaper,
easier, and so much moreefficient, they actually are
doing more scans than they'veever done before because now
that doctors that might havesent one out of 10 people for
scan is sending 10 out of 10because they can see more, you
know, with the AI.
So it has had the reverseeffect of what we thought it
(25:22):
would have.
And I wonder how many othertimes is that gonna happen with
especially our industry where wethink AI is gonna do something
and it does it, but then theeffect is different than what we
thought it would be.
John Crosby (25:35):
Well, and that that is how innovation occurs.
Uh, there's experimentation andyou know, creativity applied to
a problem.
And you know, I think it thesame thing's gonna happen with
AI in this industry.
It's it's gonna be accidentaldiscoveries from attempting to
accomplish something everyonethinks they ought to be doing
now.
But to your point about AI, allit's gonna take is one of these
(25:58):
companies to step in and say,we're going that way and we're
going hard, and it will be thetipping point.
Stefanie Couch (26:04):
Yeah.
John Crosby (26:04):
And it's going to dramatically change how the
entire industry approaches uhnot just productivity, but
actually growing the business ina way that demonstrates value
to shareholders or owners and umand and also to employees.
To your point, you can create abetter work experience for
(26:25):
people simply by leveraging thetechnology that AI uh provides.
I I would say robotics is stilla thing on the manufacturing
side.
Absolutely.
The investment there needs togrow.
And a good example is CardinalGlass.
They have invested to the hiltin their own proprietary
technology.
They're putting investments inwhere arguably they don't have
(26:47):
to, and they're doing it becausethey they want to.
Yeah.
Their customers are inspired bythat and don't even need to
invest in developing proprietarytechnology.
So we're actually trying tofigure out a way to help the
entire industry understandthere's a smarter way to operate
while retaining your workforceand giving them opportunities to
(27:08):
do more strategic work or moreimpactful work while robotics is
taking care of the heavylifting.
So I think there is a role toplay for WDMA on that front.
Um I think it's gonna depend onwhether there's consensus on
that.
Sure.
We'll see.
Stefanie Couch (27:25):
As you look at the next six to 12 months, now
you're one year in, and nowyou're heading into year two for
you.
What excites you the most aboutwhat you're doing with the
industry and the people and allthose things at WDMA?
John Crosby (27:38):
Becoming a more digitally oriented organization
is I'm I'm energized that thisis a moment where I could land
and say we need to go that wayreally fast.
And there's no argument aboutit.
Everyone kind of gets it thatwe need to do that to increase
engagement with members.
(27:58):
We need to do it to project ouradvocacy messages, to draw more
members into the fold, and togrow what we call non-dues
revenue.
Um, it's crucial because thelast thing I ever want to do is
raise dues.
I think that's just forregressive action.
On the digital side, thatreally energized me.
It is not the first thing Ithought going in, but now after
(28:19):
a year, and and truly havingsome debates with members of our
board about the viability of itand and the reasoning for it,
that's number one on the list.
But the other is data andinsights.
Um, I I had a conversation, I'mgonna give all credit to Chris
Galvin with Anderson.
I sat down with him at IBS thispast February, and I was bold
(28:43):
enough to say to him, Chris, Ireally do think we need to
figure out how we can orientWDMA to serve the industry
better through data collectionand analysis.
And his eyes lit up.
And we talked about it for anhour.
And at the end, I said, truly,given the structure of your
company, it's not publiclytraded or anything like that.
I was concerned you were gonnasay that's a bad idea or we may
(29:06):
have to push back on that.
No.
He sees the future for thisindustry and says, if we don't
start doing things like that,we're gonna put ourselves, all
of us, at a competitivedisadvantage.
Right.
So I we're not moving atlightning speed on data
collection and analysis, but weare moving purposefully in that
direction.
The hope and belief is that bythe end of the first quarter, we
(29:29):
will have conducted, it's it'sessentially a census of the
industry, an economic impactstudy.
Um, I call that the Trojanhorse of data collection because
it you need it for advocacywork, but the intel you gather
from that is massive.
And I I can't wait.
I'm gonna get phone calls fromall these research organizations
asking us to sell them thedata, and I'm not gonna do it
(29:52):
because that's not the thing youdo.
Stefanie Couch (29:53):
Um, I'm so excited about that because there
isn't really anything likethat.
I mean, there's some things outthere in different
organizations that have touchedthat, but nothing around that.
I hope you do some umconversations about brand and
some of the things that I liketo talk about because I would
love to see some information onthat and how people view that.
And going towards thatconversation, you and I have
(30:15):
talked a lot in our last sixmonths of knowing.
Other about the importance offor our industry being something
that you know and you'reseeing, and what are your
thoughts on that?
How important is the nextgeneration of our industry, the
leaders that are here, they'renot going to be able to stand on
reputation alone.
They have for a long time.
And that is how the marketmoved, and that's how things
(30:39):
were done, and it's not anymore.
What are your thoughts on thatand the importance of shifting
our perspective there?
John Crosby (30:46):
Well, first, and I think this came about in the in
the presentation you gave today.
I I think thedirect-to-consumer model is
going to evolve rapidly withinour sector.
And I think that is a greatthing.
Um, I mentionedovercommoditization earlier.
Consumers are notovercommodizing our product.
(31:06):
It's the builder, it's to someextent the architect, the
distributor.
If we can move in the directionof educating consumers about
what it means to have a qualityexperience in your home through
windows and doors and skylights,I think we're going to change
the perception of what it meansto own a home.
There are just so many facetsto the equation that we can
(31:29):
bring up.
And I'm not even talking abouttechnology advancements that no
one's willing to take the riskson, or if they are, it's in
their RD programs and they scrapthem.
That's the part where I've I'veactually said to every CEO in
individual conversations, youknow, I want to see when one of
our member companies is pushingout that product that has
electrochromatic shading and ithas a mobile app connected to
(31:52):
all of the windows so you canactually manually manipulate
them, open and close them.
You know, turn your windows anddoors into applications so that
everyone wants them.
Stefanie Couch (32:05):
Yeah.
John Crosby (32:07):
That's the vision I have for the future.
For the next six months, thatis not in the cards.
But we do want to be able topush them in that direction
because if they're if they'reconsidering a better state,
they're going to aim for it.
But first is I think gettingpast the the intermediators that
are involved.
That's what's happened in othersectors.
Stefanie Couch (32:27):
Well, and from my perspective, being in that
channel for so long, you gotowards the easy route or what
you know.
And then the distributors andthe dealers and the even
contractors, like you said, theyhave favorites because of their
comfortability with them.
Like you might see a betterproduct and you might know it's
better, and you know that thingis something you should learn
(32:48):
about, but you already know thisthing is proven.
And so it's how do you considerthe stories and the values of
what they actually care aboutand then build something around
that that catches the attentionenough to make them want to know
more or to make them want toremember it.
And I don't think we do a greatjob as an industry of that.
We think so much about thetechnical and the features and
(33:08):
benefits, that is not how peoplebuy.
And so if we can start to thinkabout how actually people buy,
which is more, way moreemotional than logical, and we
can tap into that, then theystart to care about once you get
down the line, the features andthe benefits.
But it can't be what we leadwith, and it always has been.
John Crosby (33:27):
That's a fact.
You know, our keynote todayfocused on values alignment with
customers.
And if we extrapolate to theend user of a building, of a
home, or whatever structure, andconsider what their experience
is like and what their valuesare as a part of being in that
(33:47):
structure, it's pretty easy toconnect the dots to why better
performing products from ourindustry can be preferred and
outright purchase.
There is a logical flow to thatargument.
Yeah.
Um that's that's a part ofmarketing that I think in this
industry everyone thinks is waytoo soft, and it's not.
(34:10):
It's very direct and impactfulto the message that a consumer
would want to hear.
Stefanie Couch (34:15):
Well, I'll bring uh the unsoftest person I've
ever read about into the story.
Whether you love him or hatehim, Elon Musk is not someone I
would consider to be soft.
He literally uses the wordhardcore all the time.
That's what he calls himself.
But he actually says thatshowmanship is salesmanship, and
he talks about the power ofstories and connecting, and you
(34:35):
have to make people payattention.
Steve Jobs was the same way.
They're both ruthless founders.
They they were not known forbeing real empathetic.
But at the end of the day, ifthey know that and they
understand that, then I wouldbelieve that we all could take a
cue from that of there'ssomething here.
And even Warren Buffett talksabout storytelling.
And so I think we have tofigure out a way to do that.
John Crosby (34:59):
And there's a there's a connective tissue to
that and the challenge that wehave.
And it Steve Jobs said it.
I'm not interested inunderstanding what my customer
wants.
I want to tell them what theywant.
I want to produce andanticipate what they are going
to need.
Yes.
The same can be applied to ourindustry.
(35:19):
What is what is the end usergonna need or want in the future
that they don't even realizenow?
Stefanie Couch (35:25):
It's hard to solve a problem you don't know
you have, even if someone elseknows you have it.
John Crosby (35:29):
That's correct.
But once you can see a desiredend state, you want more of it
than anybody else.
And I do believe if we canadopt more of an uh an
innovative culture and honestlyadopt some risk taking in the
process, I I think you could seesome transformations happen in
this industry.
Unfortunately, it's probablygoing to lead to more
(35:49):
consolidation, but uh it is whatit is.
We can't stop that.
Stefanie Couch (35:54):
Inevitability.
I don't I don't see how you getaround that with the way that
the market and all the thefinances out there are working.
I'm just don't andmanufacturing is hard and it's a
little easier with scale.
And the bigger the scale gets,the easier it gets.
The bigger the stick, theeasier it is to swing, I guess.
Yep.
So I have one last question foryou.
Sure.
If we are here in five yearsand we're talking about you and
(36:18):
WDMA, um hopeful hopefully bythen you have a pink hat to go
with your pink jacket.
But if we're talking aboutwhat's happened, what do you
hope is true and what do youwant to be true for you and for
WDMA in five years?
John Crosby (36:32):
I hope that what we are seeing is um is actually an
evolution is taking place inthe the mind of the average
American about the importance ofI'm gonna use the word
fenestration, but I'm onlybecause we're all in the
industry.
The importance of fenestrationfor a lot of reasons.
(36:55):
For performance, sure, but it'sso boring to talk about energy
performance.
It's how does that windowperform to improve your quality
of life and the experience ofyour home?
Um, I I hope that we haveevolved to the point where the
average American sees that andsays, wow, all this time I
didn't even realize that.
And now I have increased valueabout my own home because of it.
(37:18):
Um so I would like to think infive years we've achieved that.
We've gotten to middle Americawith the message that those
things in your house that youdidn't have a choice over can be
changed and you can getsomething you'll be proud of.
So that's what I hope for.
The other question was Whatabout for you personally?
Me personally.
Well, first of all, I do hopeI'm still here.
(37:39):
Um, I I have no intentions of,you know, a lot of people in the
association space will workthree years and then find the
next gig.
I took this job because knowingit was gonna need up a lot more
of my personal time, um, I tookit because I could sense that I
had a verve for the industryand the people.
And I want to be at thisconference in five years, having
(38:04):
that that session that endedtoday, I want it to be an
absolutely like a hoot nanny.
People butting heads and havingdebates and arguing things, and
in the end, but it being aboutthings that matter and will
shape the future of the industryfor years to come, because I
have facilitated the ground foreveryone to do that in a way
(38:26):
that they're still friendlycompetitors and they're
collegial with one another andtreat each other like family.
That's we get we get more ofwith the same stable foundation
we've got.
Stefanie Couch (38:38):
Well, I think that you are the bridge to make
that happen, and I'm excited,and I hope we are here together
in five years talking about itand doing a lot of great things
for the industry that we bothlove and serve hopefully for a
long time.
John Crosby (38:51):
Let's put it down.
Let's do it.
We will be there.
All right.
Stefanie Couch (38:54):
Well, thank you for joining me on the Grit
Blueprint Podcast, and we willsee you on the next episode.
Thank you for listening to theGrit Blueprint podcast.
If this episode helped youthink a little differently about
how to show up, share it withsomeone in your building world
who needs it.
If you're ready to turnvisibility into growth, then
(39:15):
head to gritblueprint.com tolearn more and book a call to
talk to us about your growthstrategy.
Until next time, stayunmistakable.
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.