July 8, 2025 • 30 mins
Stefanie Couch talks with Jim Wilcox of Wilcox Associates about transforming sales approaches in the building industry through understanding customer value and following proven methodologies.
• Price only matters in the absence of value – salespeople don't bring value, they must align with what customers truly value
• Most salespeople qualify leads based on gut feeling rather than understanding problems, issues, and decision-making processes
• Professional sort, amateur sell – successful salespeople filter for the right opportunities rather than pursuing every lead
• A players need coaching not time management, while C players need help with fundamentals
• Using the CARE framework (Clients to Keep, Attain, Recapture, and Expand) creates a strategic approach to relationship management
• Data collection through CRMs enables better business decisions and helps identify which customer types actually drive profitability
• Having a structured sales process to follow is critical for moving from average to elite performance
Connect with Jim Wilcox on LinkedIn or email him at jimwilcox@sandler.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim Wilcox (00:00):
Here's where salespeople get it wrong.
They think they bring the value.
As a sales professional, Idon't bring the value.
You own the value.
If I can align my product or myservice to that, the sale will
happen.
If I don't do that, then I getreduced down to the lowest
common denominator, which isalways price.
Stefanie Couch (00:17):
So many businesses they'll sell to
anyone that kind of walks in thedoor.
And if you did have the data ofsaying, hey, 80% of the time
when we go with this type ofcustomer we don't get paid, we
get burned, well, maybe weshould go with this 20% that
actually could fill the wholebusiness and go after them.
If you don't know the numbers,you have no clue on that.
Jim Wilcox (00:35):
Professional sort amateur sell.
So when that builder is infront of me, I have to really
understand what it is thatthey're trying to do.
Is he trying to crank out asmany homes as he can and he's
looking for the best way tomaximize his margins?
Let me figure out how I canhelp him solve for that.
Stefanie Couch (00:54):
Welcome to the Grit Blueprint Podcast, the show
for bold builders, brandleaders and legacy makers in the
construction and buildingindustry.
I'm your host, Stefanie Couch,and I've been in this industry
my entire life.
Whether we're breaking downwhat's working in sales and
marketing, new advances in AIand automation, or interviewing
(01:18):
top industry leaders, you'regoing to get real-world
strategies to grow your business, build your brand and lead your
team.
Let's get to work.
Welcome to the Great BlueprintPodcast.
I'm your host, Stefanie Couch,and I am here today live in
Orlando, florida, at the Do itBest Spring Market with my
(01:39):
friend, Jim Wilcox.
Welcome to the show, Jim.
Jim Wilcox (01:41):
Good to see you, thank you.
Stefanie Couch (01:43):
Yes, and you are actually here with Do it Best,
Just like me as a consultant.
We both work with them.
It's been a really coolpartnership to be able to see
you at markets.
You have Wilcox &Associates.
Tell me a little bit about whatyou do and who you are.
Jim Wilcox (01:56):
Yeah, thank you.
So Wilcox & Associates ismy company, we are a Sandler
training organization, so weexist to help companies scale
and we do that three ways.
We do that through management,leadership, development, we do
that through sales process andmethodology, and then this
wouldn't apply to do it bestnecessarily directly, but we've
(02:20):
got a program that helps smalland medium-sized companies scale
.
Where that helps you at best iswith a lot of the tools that
we've brought to them andthey're using in different ways.
So those are the three things,that three lanes that we swim in
, if you will.
Stefanie Couch (02:34):
Absolutely.
I love sales.
I've been doing sales a longtime, but a lot of people are
terrified of sales.
What would you say to peoplewho say I can't sell, I would
never want to sell anything,because I think everything in
life is sales.
You know, every action that youtake, you're selling something
to someone, either an idea or aprinciple, or a product.
(02:54):
What would you say to peoplethat are scared of sales?
Jim Wilcox (02:57):
It's a great question.
Somewhere along the line, salestruly became a four-letter word
and a lot of people areterrified of it truly became a
four-letter word and a lot ofpeople are terrified of it to
the degree that you know peoplewant to put business development
manager, you know, on theircard or some other cute term
that doesn't say sales.
And I think something you said,Stefanie, is very important.
Almost every single role in theorganization truly is selling,
(03:20):
yeah, internally or externally.
I think when you look at rolesthat are not directly selling, I
would ask some questions around.
So what ideas are you sharing?
Where do you negotiate?
Where do you have to beconvincing?
Internally or externally?
Because, like you said, eveninternally I'm trying to sell an
(03:42):
idea, that's sales, right, ifI'm trying to get time with
somebody across the organization, you think about the larger
organizations that we work with.
If I need somebody to help meout across the organization,
sometimes I've got to negotiateor sell my time.
So putting away this idea thatsales is somehow a four-letter
(04:03):
word and it's bad, yeah, gettingover that head trash first, I
think, is the first step inaddressing that.
Stefanie Couch (04:12):
Yeah, what are some of the principles?
Because I know Sandler is knownas the best sales coaching in
the world and you are obviouslyassociated with them.
What are some of the principlesthat you teach at Sandler in
sales?
Jim Wilcox (04:31):
Thank you.
From a Sandler perspective, webelieve that there's a handful
of steps in identifying anopportunity, taking it all the
way through close.
So the first thing is buildingbonding and rapport.
So how am I engaging thatprospect or that client on a
personal level?
Sales gets a bad rap because Ishow up and I try to be all
things to Stefanie, for example,or I try to be somebody I'm not
(04:54):
, but how do I truly match andmirror and what are the tools in
doing that?
So that's the first step.
I'm not going to be friends witheverybody that I sell to, yeah
Right, and I don't have to befriends that to everybody that I
sell to.
You don't even have to like menecessarily to buy from me,
which are weird concepts, but ifI can figure out how to create
(05:15):
some likeness with you, then wecan create some bonding and
rapport from there.
If we can create some equalbusiness stature right, then we
can get the ball moving onselling From there.
It's how do we properly qualify?
What's interesting is, when Italk to sales reps about how do
you know when you have aqualified opportunity, most of
(05:36):
them will say I had aconversation with Stefanie Couch
and it was a great conversationand that's how they feel like
it's qualified.
Stefanie Couch (05:44):
So it all goes back to, honestly, whether they
like you or not, or whether youlike them or they felt like
there was a warm and fuzzy.
I feel like that's what mostpeople qualify on is like is it
warm and fuzzy?
Did I feel good about that?
It's not.
Is this solution a good fit?
Do they have the you know,sometimes the money or the
qualifications to do the thingthat I want them to do, or do
(06:06):
they even need my solution?
I think is a big question thatpeople forget to ask.
I've always thought that youknow you can sell something to
someone and they can say yes andthe check can clear, or the
credit card can go into youraccount, but if in a few weeks
they don't feel like what youbrought them gave them great
value, they're never going tobuy from you again.
(06:26):
And also they're probably goingto have some resentment there,
cause I know I feel that wayabout certain products that I
probably shouldn't have boughtand they didn't give me that.
How can people as a salespersonmake sure that that is a good
fit?
So you're talking aboutqualifying.
Go a little deeper into thatit's.
But let's let's take ado-invest member, for example,
someone selling lumber orsomeone selling a hardware
(06:48):
product.
Let's take lumber products.
That's more of a fit for alonger-term job.
A lot of times Maybe a buildercomes in.
How do you know that thatbuilder is a good qualified
customer for you as a lumberdealer?
Jim Wilcox (07:05):
One of the things that I talk about a lot when
you're selling is and I use thisphrase all the time that
professional sort amateur sell.
Professional sort amateur sell.
And so, as a professional, I'mtrying to sort through.
In the moment I have to knowthe game I'm playing at a couple
of different levels.
So when that builder is infront of me, if I've never done
business with them or it's beena long time since I've done
(07:26):
business with them, I have toreally understand what it is
that they're trying to do.
Now that sale might betransactional right, you supply
lumber, I need lumber right,let's make things happen.
But if I want that builder tocome back time and time again, I
probably need to have anunderstanding of what is he
trying to do.
(07:46):
Is he trying to crank out asmany homes as he can and he's
looking for the best way tomaximize his margins?
Let me figure out how I canhelp him solve for that.
If he is trying to grow ascalable business, something
bigger than who he is as oneindividual, and I can help solve
for that, then we have a muchdifferent relationship.
(08:07):
So I have to sort throughwhat's the game I'm playing here
in the way that I sell and inthe way that I'm selling to the
customer at the end of the day,I think one of the things we're
seeing in our business, becausewe help people build systems and
also do some things withmarketing and branding and that
AI we're doing a lot.
Stefanie Couch (08:27):
Loyalty programs are something that I'm seeing a
ton come out into the market.
So I work with a lot ofmanufacturers as well as dealers
and distributors in thebuilding materials space
specifically, and a lot of bigcompanies in the last three
months have come out withloyalty programs, and I think
it's because no one wants to becompeting on just price.
We need to figure out how do weas a company help the customers
(08:51):
that are coming to us buildtheir businesses, which is
intrinsically what you're doingfor people is helping them scale
.
I've always found that if wecan solve a problem for someone,
if we can figure out how tomake their life easier, reduce
friction, all those things and Ithink we're starting to see
that you know for four or fiveyears previous to right now well
(09:13):
, especially 2020, 2021, crazy,crazy, crazy things.
You know you just sold it.
If you had it, it was going tosell in the building materials
business.
We are not in that market rightnow and some people are very
worried about how do I stay ontop.
How do I dominate my marketwhen I'm competing on price
again?
What would you say to a personin the dealer market that wants
(09:36):
to say they have more than justa price.
They aren't just a price?
What are the things that youwould say that you see people
winning in this market with?
Jim Wilcox (09:45):
So we talked about, started to talk about qualifying
a moment ago, and there's a.
I always say when I'm trainingpeople that if I were to have a
tattoo, it would be right hereand it would say that, all
things being equal, price onlymatters in the absence of value.
So I would, I would print thatright there.
(10:08):
I do believe that.
I believe you know we're inOrlando.
There's a Ferrari pop-up storein the Vineland Mall right now
and I looked at a jacket thatwas $850 just for a puffer
jacket, right.
I could buy the same Patagoniajacket for probably $200.
Those jackets are flying out ofthat store because people value
(10:30):
whatever it is the brand, thequality, the perceived quality,
right.
And so we train a lot not tosell on price, right.
But here's where salespeopleget it wrong.
They think they bring the value.
As a sales professional, Idon't bring the value, you own
(10:50):
the value, right.
So if I can unlock whatStefanie values and if I can
align my product or my serviceto that, we have a pretty darn
good chance of that buyer-sellerrelationship.
The sale will happen.
If I don't do that, then I getreduced down to the lowest
common denominator, which isalways price.
Stefanie Couch (11:11):
Absolutely.
And in a product-based marketlike what we're in here selling
hardware, selling lumber,selling doors, windows it is
very easy and I see a lot ofespecially inexperienced
salespeople that they do.
Unfortunately, they live thatnightmare of it's just hey, this
person was $2 cheaper than you,and sometimes on big jobs I
(11:34):
mean it's.
I know someone that lost asiding job for 50 cents, you
know, and it's really hard forto get people out of that
mentality.
But also, if that customer isthat way, like truly, that
really is all they care, theyvalue, then maybe it isn't the
right qualified customer for youIf that's not how your business
is set up.
Jim Wilcox (11:51):
Correct, yeah, correct.
I think that you know there.
There's a time and a place tomake adjustments to the price.
Now, if I follow goodnegotiation process, I'm only
going to do that if I'm gettingsomething of equal or greater
value in return.
Right, that should be mymindset around that.
I'm not just going to say, oh,they're $2 lower or 50 cents
(12:14):
lower, let me match that.
I'm going to fight for.
Well, what if we were able tomeet in the middle?
You concede, I concede I'mgoing to fight for.
Well, what if we were able tomeet in the middle?
You concede, I concede, I getsomething of equal, greater
value.
I still hit my margins andwe're okay with it.
Right, that's a win.
But for me to just give up 50cents or two bucks to match
somebody else's price, I may becutting my own throat just to
(12:36):
get the sale.
And when I'm out talking toowners of businesses in all
industries, when they havesellers that are discounting to
win business, that's a hugeproblem.
In fact, we'll often say thatthat's the tax the owner pays
for having salespeople thatdon't think beyond selling on
(12:57):
price.
Stefanie Couch (12:57):
Yeah, it's dangerous for the whole business
, for sure, and it does feellike, especially when things get
tough, that that's what peoplego back to if they don't have
the training.
So, other than thequalification process, what's a
few other things that you focuson?
And, sandler, with your salesprinciples, because I really
believe a lot of people struggleso much with this.
(13:18):
They don't know what to do.
Jim Wilcox (13:20):
Correct.
Yeah, they're not following aprocess.
So qualification is more thanyou know.
Did we have a good conversation?
It's what are the problems,issues or challenges you're
trying to solve Right, when areyou at today versus where do you
want to be tomorrow?
We call that pain.
You know what.
Are you willing and able tomake the investment in my
product or service?
(13:40):
And then how are you going tomake the decision?
There's a couple other stepsbeyond that.
So on the sales side, we'retraining to a process and then
the methodology, which is thetips, tools and best practices.
Beyond that, we're trainingmanagers on how to lead and
develop talent in theirorganizations and how to coach
(14:03):
and train to a process.
I'll use my own story.
You know, in my past salescareer I was always, you know,
top sales guy and one daysomebody tapped me on the
shoulder and said Jim, you'repretty good at sales, we're
going to promote you to manager,go out and lead the team.
But I never got trained.
They just assumed, because Iwas a good sales guy, that I'd
(14:24):
be a good manager.
And that does not translate,Didn't translate in my case and
it doesn't translate Hardly everRight and the skills are so
different.
Stefanie Couch (14:33):
especially a lot of salespeople that are really
great are actually lone wolves.
I mean, they're out thereeating what they kill and
they're going for the gustoevery day and they're not
thinking a lot about team andbuilding, you know, an
organization.
So I find that sometimesthey're the worst managers.
Are those people?
Because they're so, you know,just naturally they need that
(14:53):
training.
Jim Wilcox (14:54):
Well, and here's a fallacy with your A players.
The common mistake withmanagers is they tend to spend
their time with C players.
I've got to fix some, yeahRight, and they ignore their A
players because they can be onautopilot and we get that
backwards, right.
So we talk a lot about not onlywhere do you spend your time,
(15:14):
but how.
If you take an A, b and a Cplayer on a team, they should
get a different type ofinteraction.
A players don't need their timemanaged, right, you know they
typically have got that down.
They need coaching.
C players need their timemanaged.
They need to be able to do thefundamentals and if they can't,
you've got decisions to make.
Stefanie Couch (15:35):
Yeah, that's a great conversation.
I want to dig into that just alittle bit.
So I have a pretty firm belief,and you could disagree with
this, but I think you can tellusually pretty soon after you
hire someone within a few monthsat least, but usually pretty
immediately whether someone iskind of an A player.
I mean, I've never seen anyoneturn into a superstar that
(15:57):
wasn't already one.
That's a true A player, like aunicorn.
But B player, C player is alittle harder to pick out and
sometimes they can mirror as anA player for a few minutes
during an interview.
Right, it's kind of easy tolook that way.
And sometimes people come inwith great pedigrees.
You see a resume and you'relike, wow, this person, he or
she has worked everywhere,They've done everything, and
(16:19):
they don't get to the finishline like you think they're
going to.
How do you sort through that asa leader?
How do you know when someonereally is a good fit for a role?
Because I think that'ssomething a lot of people
struggle with, and sometimesyou're having a really short
interview process.
It's you need someone right now.
How do you micromanage that ormanipulate that to work for you?
Jim Wilcox (16:41):
There's several steps.
So in our leadership program,one of the tools that we use is
it actually comes out of ourorganizational excellence
program but we train owners andmanagers on how to create what
we call a search model for theposition, not the person right.
So if Stefanie is a topperformer, for example, and she
leaves, we're not necessarilytrying to replace Stefanie.
(17:04):
What we want to look at is whatare the skills, experiences,
attitudes, results, cognitivebackground and habits of the
position that are required, andthen let's match the candidate
to that.
Let's do that through, you know, creating a strong job profile,
for example.
(17:25):
And then we're big believers inbringing along third party
objective assessments that helpus vet out is this candidate
right?
Because, like you alluded to, Imean the average sales person,
can you know BS their waythrough an interview?
And then you're stuck with theresult, Unfortunately, three
(17:46):
months later saying hey, Ithought Jim could produce and he
doesn't seem to want to leavehis house.
Now you've got a problem.
So we start with that searchmodel.
We encourage third partyassessments.
Stefanie Couch (17:58):
Are there some that you love more than others?
Jim Wilcox (18:01):
third-party assessments.
Are there some that you lovemore than others?
There's a few that we like.
Okay, you know, on thecommunication side we use DISC
quite a bit.
On the behavioral side, we useassessments like Talogy and
Harvard and Octus.
Okay, there's a ton of them outthere.
The key is, you know, havingones with the right job models
and having ones that arevalidated is having ones with
(18:22):
the right job models and havingones that are validated.
You've got to have a validatedassessment to have the
confidence of what you'reworking with.
When you're working with alarge organization, you got to
check all the HR and SHRM boxesthere, but there's a few that we
like.
And then training managers onhow to interview.
Most managers interview, youknow, likely qualify.
(18:43):
Oh, you know she's got thisbackground or went to that
school or knows this person.
That's not good enough when itcomes to you know your next
talent anywhere in theorganization.
Stefanie Couch (18:55):
Yeah, I think one thing that is kind of a
thread through this wholeconversation that's interesting
to me is our human nature is tolike people that are like us,
yes, and also people that likeus.
So if someone else, if I likeyou, jim, and I think well, jim
and I are kind of similar and welike each other, then it's way
easier for me to hire you or forme to want to buy from you.
(19:17):
And some of that is just humannature, nature.
But I think as leaders, it isvery interesting to see how that
actually can be negative in anorganization, because you copy
and paste yourself,unfortunately, and your problems
become the whole organization'sproblem, instead of having that
diversity of hey, this person'sreally good at this thing that
I'm terrible at.
It almost never seems likethat's naturally how it works,
(19:40):
maybe after you've been burnedenough times and you know you
need that complementary skill.
There's built-in bias, that'sright exactly, and so I think
some of these tools that set up,like you said, it's not about
the person as much as it's aboutthe role and what does the role
really need, and then trulygetting down to figure out what
is that even actually outlinedas?
Because sometimes what youthink a role needs, you get into
(20:03):
the day to day and it's a verysmall part of what they actually
are going to be doing.
Like, for instance, salespeopleneed to be able to do some of
the technical operations in,like CRMs and tracking and
metrics and things like that,and I've met a lot of
salespeople that would ratherjust drive off a cliff than log
into their CRM.
So how do you mitigate thatwhen someone has some of the raw
(20:25):
skills, like, for instance, thesales ability, but they don't
want to do some of the othermore technical parts of the job?
Jim Wilcox (20:31):
Boy, that's potentially Pandora's box,
because I used to be that guy.
I used to be that guy where youknow I was always typing in my
notes late, right, getting it,getting them last minute.
But you know, as an owner now,I completely understand the need
(20:51):
to be able to have data inthere, cause if if we're working
together, you're on my team andyou win the lottery and decide
you're not coming in tomorrow,I've got to be able to pick it
up and if I don't have good datain there, I can't pick it up.
Or worse, you leave, I don'thave data and now you're taking
all your clients with you.
I'm super at risk.
(21:12):
The other piece of that is, as asmall business owner, I've got
to be able to plan, so yourprojections need to be very,
very tight and we've got to haveyou know.
In our CRMs we look at thestages of our pipeline.
I've got to have good entry andexit criteria so that I have
confidence that what you're outthere producing is good from my
(21:36):
perspective, to be able to planand make decisions.
And so you know, I don't knowthat a lot of salespeople have
that perspective.
They look at it as oh, my CRMis my babysitter or it's another
task I have to do, but there'sa lot of importance in
collecting that data.
Stefanie Couch (21:54):
Absolutely.
I think data is the biggestbuilding industry miss that I've
seen is I mean this ranges fromlike companies that are
startups that have $100,000 ayear in sales to billion dollar
companies.
Jim Wilcox (22:07):
It's every business.
Stefanie Couch (22:08):
They have the data.
A lot of times they do actuallyhave some data, but they don't
know what to do with it.
Or, in a smaller business, theydon't.
They just don't even have any.
They don't know what any oftheir numbers are.
And when you start to thinkabout making these giant
decisions that we make in ourbusinesses every day by gut
feeling, only without anynumbers, it's really scary.
And you can you could literallycrush the business because of
(22:30):
something like that.
So I think the more we caneducate salespeople and really
anyone on the fact that this isnot a babysitter the word
babysitters I've always heardfrom my sales teams.
You know, guys, I've got to getout of this customer's yard and
sit in my car for 15 minutesand write notes in the CRM, and
you know it's just a pain forthem.
But if you start to think of itas an actual kind of a tale of,
(22:54):
hey, here's what actually wecould do if you did this, in a
way we could use this data.
One thing that I see as a realopportunity for our industry is
figuring out what customers weactually should be focusing on,
because I feel, like so manybusinesses, they will.
They'll sell to anyone thatkind of walks in the door or
calls, and if you did have thedata of saying, hey, 80% of the
(23:17):
time when we go with this A typeof customer, we don't get paid,
we get burned, we get you know,well, maybe we should go with
this 20% that actually couldfill the whole business and go
after them.
If you don't know the numbers,you just you have no clue on
that stuff.
Jim Wilcox (23:31):
Yeah, one of the things we work with in fact,
it's one of the sessions I'vedone this week being here is
around client segmentation.
Done this week being here isaround client segmentation, and
so we train every single clienton a client segmentation
strategy called CARE, whichstands for clients that I want
to keep, attain, recapture andexpand.
There's three steps that wetake with CARE.
(23:54):
The first one is how do weidentify them?
What do they look like?
Now, what's interesting is whenyou really get granular on the
clients you want to keep and theclients you want to attain, the
unintended or intended outcomeof that is I can develop an
ideal client profile, and thatspeaks to the 20% that you were
talking about.
(24:15):
If I know that now, I can beginto be more targeted in the
areas that I'm going after onthe attain side.
What's interesting on the keepside is there are a lot of
clients that I have that maybethey're not the ideal client,
right, so now it gives me theopportunity to relook at that.
(24:35):
And then there are clients Iwant to recapture and expand.
So how do we identify them?
Second step is what do we dowith them when we, now that
we've got them in our sites.
Those clients get treatedslightly differently.
Right, I'm going to treat mykeep client a little bit
differently than my, expand myrecapture a little bit different
than my attain.
The last step, then, is what'smy 90 day over 90 day plan?
(24:58):
So now I have a strategy to goout and be very targeted and
balanced in my approach as I'mgoing out and navigating my
territory as somebody who has todevelop business as part of my
role with focus on hey, how muchtime do I spend on totally new
(25:19):
business, like never seen thisperson before?
Stefanie Couch (25:21):
And then sometimes the nurturing and the
upkeep on current customers getsput to the wayside.
And then you have some peoplethat are more nurturers and
they're out just nurturing allthe time and don't ever get new
business.
I feel like usually people arebetter at one or the other and
they feel so comfortable in thatthat they get locked in.
So it's great to have a processthat you're actually thinking
about that upfront.
Jim Wilcox (25:42):
Well, not only that, but you alluded to us being
predictable.
We're very predictable as humanbeings and as a salesperson
myself.
The easiest place for me to gois to play clients that already
like me, or if I know that I'vegot a relationship and somebody
will welcome me in.
That's easy, but that's notalways or necessarily what sales
(26:06):
is about.
I've got to go out and disruptrelationships.
I've got to go out and walkonto that lumberyard where
nobody knows me, or it's been ahot minute since I've talked to
anybody there and be bold enoughto get into a conversation.
That's not comfortable always.
Stefanie Couch (26:22):
Yeah, I think that exact moment that you just
described is why 99% of peoplein the world say they hate sales
.
It's because they don't want todo that uncomfortable thing.
Humans usually don't, I mean,most of us don't like to do the
hard things.
It feels icky and we don't wantto go there.
But true salespeople love thatadventure and think it's fun.
(26:43):
But maybe we're just the crazyones, I don't know.
Jim Wilcox (26:45):
Maybe.
Yeah, we don't have a problembeing told no right.
Stefanie Couch (26:49):
It just means not yet to us for sure.
Well, this has been such agreat conversation.
Jim Wilcox (26:53):
I do want to end with one last question for you,
If you were 20-year-old, jim,and you could give yourself one
piece of advice, what would itbe?
Stefanie Couch (27:06):
Oh my gosh, it can be around sales, since we've
been talking about sales thewhole time.
Jim Wilcox (27:08):
What would?
Stefanie Couch (27:09):
it be.
Jim Wilcox (27:10):
You know, a lot of our clients will say this and I
said it.
And actually, if I back up,there are two things.
So I spent five years as aclient of Sandler and when our
owners came to me and said, hey,we're going to do training, I
thought, great, we hired someschmuck who can't sell, so now
(27:30):
he's training right.
You know the old adage thosethat can't do teach.
I quickly learned that was notthe case, very blessed to have
an amazing trainer.
The other thing that I hear fromclients is where was this?
20 years ago?
I had had 15 years or so ofsales experience coming into
Sandler and that was one of thevery first things I said was
where was this 15 years ago?
(27:51):
And this will sound weird, butI think if you have any solid
process that you could, youcould lean into and own.
Now I'm biased, right, becauseI'm a Sandler trainer.
I do think Sandler is the best.
We are the 800 pound gorilla inthe room.
But you know you have a choiceto make.
(28:12):
I think Nick Saban is creditedwith saying look, you got five
choices.
You can be bad, you can beaverage, you can be good, you
can be exceptional or you can beelite, right.
So having a process to fallback on, because most of us
learn sales by figuring it outright?
So if I have a process and I'mmaking a decision on what I want
(28:33):
to be, then I can go all in tothe degree that I want to be
elite, right.
So I'm going to go all in.
And again, that has me goingwhere was this 20 years ago?
Or 15 years ago?
Stefanie Couch (28:45):
Absolutely.
I think it's so important tospend the time and develop your
skills, and sales is a skill,for sure, and it does get, I
guess, labeled as a gut instinctor like you either have it or
you don't.
But I don't really believealmost anything in life is that
way.
I think that maybe some peopleare more naturally inclined or
talented, based on personalityor risk ability and taking
(29:08):
things that are hard and lovingit, yeah.
But even people that are bornthat way, with those processes
and that kind of framework, canjust hockey stick, and that's
always a good thing when you'remaking commissions or when
you're selling.
So if someone is listening andwants to connect with you and is
interested in learning moreabout what you do, how can they
find you?
Jim Wilcox (29:28):
My email is jimwillcox at Sandler
S-A-N-D-L-E-R.
com.
I'm on LinkedIn, jim Wilcox,sandler, indiana, north Carolina
.
Those are my two.
I've got offices in both states.
Okay, you can find me onLinkedIn very active on LinkedIn
, so it shouldn't be too hard tofind me.
Stefanie Couch (29:45):
Very good.
Well, I'm excited for a greatmarket.
I am too, and thank you forspending a little time with me.
Jim Wilcox (29:50):
Thanks for having me .
Stefanie Couch (29:51):
That's it for this episode of the Grit
Blueprint Podcast.
For more tools, training andindustry content, make sure to
subscribe here and follow me onLinkedIn and other social media
platforms.
To find out more about how GritBlueprint can help you grow
your business.
Check us out at our website,gritblueprintcom.
Here's where salespeople get it wrong.
They think they bring the value.
As a sales professional, Idon't bring the value.
You own the value.
If I can align my product or myservice to that, the sale will
happen.
If I don't do that, then I getreduced down to the lowest
common denominator, which isalways price.
Stefanie Couch (00:17):
So many businesses they'll sell to
anyone that kind of walks in thedoor.
And if you did have the data ofsaying, hey, 80% of the time
when we go with this type ofcustomer we don't get paid, we
get burned, well, maybe weshould go with this 20% that
actually could fill the wholebusiness and go after them.
If you don't know the numbers,you have no clue on that.
Jim Wilcox (00:35):
Professional sort amateur sell.
So when that builder is infront of me, I have to really
understand what it is thatthey're trying to do.
Is he trying to crank out asmany homes as he can and he's
looking for the best way tomaximize his margins?
Let me figure out how I canhelp him solve for that.
Stefanie Couch (00:54):
Welcome to the Grit Blueprint Podcast, the show
for bold builders, brandleaders and legacy makers in the
construction and buildingindustry.
I'm your host, Stefanie Couch,and I've been in this industry
my entire life.
Whether we're breaking downwhat's working in sales and
marketing, new advances in AIand automation, or interviewing
(01:18):
top industry leaders, you'regoing to get real-world
strategies to grow your business, build your brand and lead your
team.
Let's get to work.
Welcome to the Great BlueprintPodcast.
I'm your host, Stefanie Couch,and I am here today live in
Orlando, florida, at the Do itBest Spring Market with my
(01:39):
friend, Jim Wilcox.
Welcome to the show, Jim.
Jim Wilcox (01:41):
Good to see you, thank you.
Stefanie Couch (01:43):
Yes, and you are actually here with Do it Best,
Just like me as a consultant.
We both work with them.
It's been a really coolpartnership to be able to see
you at markets.
You have Wilcox &Associates.
Tell me a little bit about whatyou do and who you are.
Jim Wilcox (01:56):
Yeah, thank you.
So Wilcox & Associates ismy company, we are a Sandler
training organization, so weexist to help companies scale
and we do that three ways.
We do that through management,leadership, development, we do
that through sales process andmethodology, and then this
wouldn't apply to do it bestnecessarily directly, but we've
(02:20):
got a program that helps smalland medium-sized companies scale
.
Where that helps you at best iswith a lot of the tools that
we've brought to them andthey're using in different ways.
So those are the three things,that three lanes that we swim in
, if you will.
Stefanie Couch (02:34):
Absolutely.
I love sales.
I've been doing sales a longtime, but a lot of people are
terrified of sales.
What would you say to peoplewho say I can't sell, I would
never want to sell anything,because I think everything in
life is sales.
You know, every action that youtake, you're selling something
to someone, either an idea or aprinciple, or a product.
(02:54):
What would you say to peoplethat are scared of sales?
Jim Wilcox (02:57):
It's a great question.
Somewhere along the line, salestruly became a four-letter word
and a lot of people areterrified of it truly became a
four-letter word and a lot ofpeople are terrified of it to
the degree that you know peoplewant to put business development
manager, you know, on theircard or some other cute term
that doesn't say sales.
And I think something you said,Stefanie, is very important.
Almost every single role in theorganization truly is selling,
(03:20):
yeah, internally or externally.
I think when you look at rolesthat are not directly selling, I
would ask some questions around.
So what ideas are you sharing?
Where do you negotiate?
Where do you have to beconvincing?
Internally or externally?
Because, like you said, eveninternally I'm trying to sell an
(03:42):
idea, that's sales, right, ifI'm trying to get time with
somebody across the organization, you think about the larger
organizations that we work with.
If I need somebody to help meout across the organization,
sometimes I've got to negotiateor sell my time.
So putting away this idea thatsales is somehow a four-letter
(04:03):
word and it's bad, yeah, gettingover that head trash first, I
think, is the first step inaddressing that.
Stefanie Couch (04:12):
Yeah, what are some of the principles?
Because I know Sandler is knownas the best sales coaching in
the world and you are obviouslyassociated with them.
What are some of the principlesthat you teach at Sandler in
sales?
Jim Wilcox (04:31):
Thank you.
From a Sandler perspective, webelieve that there's a handful
of steps in identifying anopportunity, taking it all the
way through close.
So the first thing is buildingbonding and rapport.
So how am I engaging thatprospect or that client on a
personal level?
Sales gets a bad rap because Ishow up and I try to be all
things to Stefanie, for example,or I try to be somebody I'm not
(04:54):
, but how do I truly match andmirror and what are the tools in
doing that?
So that's the first step.
I'm not going to be friends witheverybody that I sell to, yeah
Right, and I don't have to befriends that to everybody that I
sell to.
You don't even have to like menecessarily to buy from me,
which are weird concepts, but ifI can figure out how to create
(05:15):
some likeness with you, then wecan create some bonding and
rapport from there.
If we can create some equalbusiness stature right, then we
can get the ball moving onselling From there.
It's how do we properly qualify?
What's interesting is, when Italk to sales reps about how do
you know when you have aqualified opportunity, most of
(05:36):
them will say I had aconversation with Stefanie Couch
and it was a great conversationand that's how they feel like
it's qualified.
Stefanie Couch (05:44):
So it all goes back to, honestly, whether they
like you or not, or whether youlike them or they felt like
there was a warm and fuzzy.
I feel like that's what mostpeople qualify on is like is it
warm and fuzzy?
Did I feel good about that?
It's not.
Is this solution a good fit?
Do they have the you know,sometimes the money or the
qualifications to do the thingthat I want them to do, or do
(06:06):
they even need my solution?
I think is a big question thatpeople forget to ask.
I've always thought that youknow you can sell something to
someone and they can say yes andthe check can clear, or the
credit card can go into youraccount, but if in a few weeks
they don't feel like what youbrought them gave them great
value, they're never going tobuy from you again.
(06:26):
And also they're probably goingto have some resentment there,
cause I know I feel that wayabout certain products that I
probably shouldn't have boughtand they didn't give me that.
How can people as a salespersonmake sure that that is a good
fit?
So you're talking aboutqualifying.
Go a little deeper into thatit's.
But let's let's take ado-invest member, for example,
someone selling lumber orsomeone selling a hardware
(06:48):
product.
Let's take lumber products.
That's more of a fit for alonger-term job.
A lot of times Maybe a buildercomes in.
How do you know that thatbuilder is a good qualified
customer for you as a lumberdealer?
Jim Wilcox (07:05):
One of the things that I talk about a lot when
you're selling is and I use thisphrase all the time that
professional sort amateur sell.
Professional sort amateur sell.
And so, as a professional, I'mtrying to sort through.
In the moment I have to knowthe game I'm playing at a couple
of different levels.
So when that builder is infront of me, if I've never done
business with them or it's beena long time since I've done
(07:26):
business with them, I have toreally understand what it is
that they're trying to do.
Now that sale might betransactional right, you supply
lumber, I need lumber right,let's make things happen.
But if I want that builder tocome back time and time again, I
probably need to have anunderstanding of what is he
trying to do.
(07:46):
Is he trying to crank out asmany homes as he can and he's
looking for the best way tomaximize his margins?
Let me figure out how I canhelp him solve for that.
If he is trying to grow ascalable business, something
bigger than who he is as oneindividual, and I can help solve
for that, then we have a muchdifferent relationship.
(08:07):
So I have to sort throughwhat's the game I'm playing here
in the way that I sell and inthe way that I'm selling to the
customer at the end of the day,I think one of the things we're
seeing in our business, becausewe help people build systems and
also do some things withmarketing and branding and that
AI we're doing a lot.
Stefanie Couch (08:27):
Loyalty programs are something that I'm seeing a
ton come out into the market.
So I work with a lot ofmanufacturers as well as dealers
and distributors in thebuilding materials space
specifically, and a lot of bigcompanies in the last three
months have come out withloyalty programs, and I think
it's because no one wants to becompeting on just price.
We need to figure out how do weas a company help the customers
(08:51):
that are coming to us buildtheir businesses, which is
intrinsically what you're doingfor people is helping them scale
.
I've always found that if wecan solve a problem for someone,
if we can figure out how tomake their life easier, reduce
friction, all those things and Ithink we're starting to see
that you know for four or fiveyears previous to right now well
(09:13):
, especially 2020, 2021, crazy,crazy, crazy things.
You know you just sold it.
If you had it, it was going tosell in the building materials
business.
We are not in that market rightnow and some people are very
worried about how do I stay ontop.
How do I dominate my marketwhen I'm competing on price
again?
What would you say to a personin the dealer market that wants
(09:36):
to say they have more than justa price.
They aren't just a price?
What are the things that youwould say that you see people
winning in this market with?
Jim Wilcox (09:45):
So we talked about, started to talk about qualifying
a moment ago, and there's a.
I always say when I'm trainingpeople that if I were to have a
tattoo, it would be right hereand it would say that, all
things being equal, price onlymatters in the absence of value.
So I would, I would print thatright there.
(10:08):
I do believe that.
I believe you know we're inOrlando.
There's a Ferrari pop-up storein the Vineland Mall right now
and I looked at a jacket thatwas $850 just for a puffer
jacket, right.
I could buy the same Patagoniajacket for probably $200.
Those jackets are flying out ofthat store because people value
(10:30):
whatever it is the brand, thequality, the perceived quality,
right.
And so we train a lot not tosell on price, right.
But here's where salespeopleget it wrong.
They think they bring the value.
As a sales professional, Idon't bring the value, you own
(10:50):
the value, right.
So if I can unlock whatStefanie values and if I can
align my product or my serviceto that, we have a pretty darn
good chance of that buyer-sellerrelationship.
The sale will happen.
If I don't do that, then I getreduced down to the lowest
common denominator, which isalways price.
Stefanie Couch (11:11):
Absolutely.
And in a product-based marketlike what we're in here selling
hardware, selling lumber,selling doors, windows it is
very easy and I see a lot ofespecially inexperienced
salespeople that they do.
Unfortunately, they live thatnightmare of it's just hey, this
person was $2 cheaper than you,and sometimes on big jobs I
(11:34):
mean it's.
I know someone that lost asiding job for 50 cents, you
know, and it's really hard forto get people out of that
mentality.
But also, if that customer isthat way, like truly, that
really is all they care, theyvalue, then maybe it isn't the
right qualified customer for youIf that's not how your business
is set up.
Jim Wilcox (11:51):
Correct, yeah, correct.
I think that you know there.
There's a time and a place tomake adjustments to the price.
Now, if I follow goodnegotiation process, I'm only
going to do that if I'm gettingsomething of equal or greater
value in return.
Right, that should be mymindset around that.
I'm not just going to say, oh,they're $2 lower or 50 cents
(12:14):
lower, let me match that.
I'm going to fight for.
Well, what if we were able tomeet in the middle?
You concede, I concede I'mgoing to fight for.
Well, what if we were able tomeet in the middle?
You concede, I concede, I getsomething of equal, greater
value.
I still hit my margins andwe're okay with it.
Right, that's a win.
But for me to just give up 50cents or two bucks to match
somebody else's price, I may becutting my own throat just to
(12:36):
get the sale.
And when I'm out talking toowners of businesses in all
industries, when they havesellers that are discounting to
win business, that's a hugeproblem.
In fact, we'll often say thatthat's the tax the owner pays
for having salespeople thatdon't think beyond selling on
(12:57):
price.
Stefanie Couch (12:57):
Yeah, it's dangerous for the whole business
, for sure, and it does feellike, especially when things get
tough, that that's what peoplego back to if they don't have
the training.
So, other than thequalification process, what's a
few other things that you focuson?
And, sandler, with your salesprinciples, because I really
believe a lot of people struggleso much with this.
(13:18):
They don't know what to do.
Jim Wilcox (13:20):
Correct.
Yeah, they're not following aprocess.
So qualification is more thanyou know.
Did we have a good conversation?
It's what are the problems,issues or challenges you're
trying to solve Right, when areyou at today versus where do you
want to be tomorrow?
We call that pain.
You know what.
Are you willing and able tomake the investment in my
product or service?
(13:40):
And then how are you going tomake the decision?
There's a couple other stepsbeyond that.
So on the sales side, we'retraining to a process and then
the methodology, which is thetips, tools and best practices.
Beyond that, we're trainingmanagers on how to lead and
develop talent in theirorganizations and how to coach
(14:03):
and train to a process.
I'll use my own story.
You know, in my past salescareer I was always, you know,
top sales guy and one daysomebody tapped me on the
shoulder and said Jim, you'repretty good at sales, we're
going to promote you to manager,go out and lead the team.
But I never got trained.
They just assumed, because Iwas a good sales guy, that I'd
(14:24):
be a good manager.
And that does not translate,Didn't translate in my case and
it doesn't translate Hardly everRight and the skills are so
different.
Stefanie Couch (14:33):
especially a lot of salespeople that are really
great are actually lone wolves.
I mean, they're out thereeating what they kill and
they're going for the gustoevery day and they're not
thinking a lot about team andbuilding, you know, an
organization.
So I find that sometimesthey're the worst managers.
Are those people?
Because they're so, you know,just naturally they need that
(14:53):
training.
Jim Wilcox (14:54):
Well, and here's a fallacy with your A players.
The common mistake withmanagers is they tend to spend
their time with C players.
I've got to fix some, yeahRight, and they ignore their A
players because they can be onautopilot and we get that
backwards, right.
So we talk a lot about not onlywhere do you spend your time,
(15:14):
but how.
If you take an A, b and a Cplayer on a team, they should
get a different type ofinteraction.
A players don't need their timemanaged, right, you know they
typically have got that down.
They need coaching.
C players need their timemanaged.
They need to be able to do thefundamentals and if they can't,
you've got decisions to make.
Stefanie Couch (15:35):
Yeah, that's a great conversation.
I want to dig into that just alittle bit.
So I have a pretty firm belief,and you could disagree with
this, but I think you can tellusually pretty soon after you
hire someone within a few monthsat least, but usually pretty
immediately whether someone iskind of an A player.
I mean, I've never seen anyoneturn into a superstar that
(15:57):
wasn't already one.
That's a true A player, like aunicorn.
But B player, C player is alittle harder to pick out and
sometimes they can mirror as anA player for a few minutes
during an interview.
Right, it's kind of easy tolook that way.
And sometimes people come inwith great pedigrees.
You see a resume and you'relike, wow, this person, he or
she has worked everywhere,They've done everything, and
(16:19):
they don't get to the finishline like you think they're
going to.
How do you sort through that asa leader?
How do you know when someonereally is a good fit for a role?
Because I think that'ssomething a lot of people
struggle with, and sometimesyou're having a really short
interview process.
It's you need someone right now.
How do you micromanage that ormanipulate that to work for you?
Jim Wilcox (16:41):
There's several steps.
So in our leadership program,one of the tools that we use is
it actually comes out of ourorganizational excellence
program but we train owners andmanagers on how to create what
we call a search model for theposition, not the person right.
So if Stefanie is a topperformer, for example, and she
leaves, we're not necessarilytrying to replace Stefanie.
(17:04):
What we want to look at is whatare the skills, experiences,
attitudes, results, cognitivebackground and habits of the
position that are required, andthen let's match the candidate
to that.
Let's do that through, you know, creating a strong job profile,
for example.
(17:25):
And then we're big believers inbringing along third party
objective assessments that helpus vet out is this candidate
right?
Because, like you alluded to, Imean the average sales person,
can you know BS their waythrough an interview?
And then you're stuck with theresult, Unfortunately, three
(17:46):
months later saying hey, Ithought Jim could produce and he
doesn't seem to want to leavehis house.
Now you've got a problem.
So we start with that searchmodel.
We encourage third partyassessments.
Stefanie Couch (17:58):
Are there some that you love more than others?
Jim Wilcox (18:01):
third-party assessments.
Are there some that you lovemore than others?
There's a few that we like.
Okay, you know, on thecommunication side we use DISC
quite a bit.
On the behavioral side, we useassessments like Talogy and
Harvard and Octus.
Okay, there's a ton of them outthere.
The key is, you know, havingones with the right job models
and having ones that arevalidated is having ones with
(18:22):
the right job models and havingones that are validated.
You've got to have a validatedassessment to have the
confidence of what you'reworking with.
When you're working with alarge organization, you got to
check all the HR and SHRM boxesthere, but there's a few that we
like.
And then training managers onhow to interview.
Most managers interview, youknow, likely qualify.
(18:43):
Oh, you know she's got thisbackground or went to that
school or knows this person.
That's not good enough when itcomes to you know your next
talent anywhere in theorganization.
Stefanie Couch (18:55):
Yeah, I think one thing that is kind of a
thread through this wholeconversation that's interesting
to me is our human nature is tolike people that are like us,
yes, and also people that likeus.
So if someone else, if I likeyou, jim, and I think well, jim
and I are kind of similar and welike each other, then it's way
easier for me to hire you or forme to want to buy from you.
(19:17):
And some of that is just humannature, nature.
But I think as leaders, it isvery interesting to see how that
actually can be negative in anorganization, because you copy
and paste yourself,unfortunately, and your problems
become the whole organization'sproblem, instead of having that
diversity of hey, this person'sreally good at this thing that
I'm terrible at.
It almost never seems likethat's naturally how it works,
(19:40):
maybe after you've been burnedenough times and you know you
need that complementary skill.
There's built-in bias, that'sright exactly, and so I think
some of these tools that set up,like you said, it's not about
the person as much as it's aboutthe role and what does the role
really need, and then trulygetting down to figure out what
is that even actually outlinedas?
Because sometimes what youthink a role needs, you get into
(20:03):
the day to day and it's a verysmall part of what they actually
are going to be doing.
Like, for instance, salespeopleneed to be able to do some of
the technical operations in,like CRMs and tracking and
metrics and things like that,and I've met a lot of
salespeople that would ratherjust drive off a cliff than log
into their CRM.
So how do you mitigate thatwhen someone has some of the raw
(20:25):
skills, like, for instance, thesales ability, but they don't
want to do some of the othermore technical parts of the job?
Jim Wilcox (20:31):
Boy, that's potentially Pandora's box,
because I used to be that guy.
I used to be that guy where youknow I was always typing in my
notes late, right, getting it,getting them last minute.
But you know, as an owner now,I completely understand the need
(20:51):
to be able to have data inthere, cause if if we're working
together, you're on my team andyou win the lottery and decide
you're not coming in tomorrow,I've got to be able to pick it
up and if I don't have good datain there, I can't pick it up.
Or worse, you leave, I don'thave data and now you're taking
all your clients with you.
I'm super at risk.
(21:12):
The other piece of that is, as asmall business owner, I've got
to be able to plan, so yourprojections need to be very,
very tight and we've got to haveyou know.
In our CRMs we look at thestages of our pipeline.
I've got to have good entry andexit criteria so that I have
confidence that what you're outthere producing is good from my
(21:36):
perspective, to be able to planand make decisions.
And so you know, I don't knowthat a lot of salespeople have
that perspective.
They look at it as oh, my CRMis my babysitter or it's another
task I have to do, but there'sa lot of importance in
collecting that data.
Stefanie Couch (21:54):
Absolutely.
I think data is the biggestbuilding industry miss that I've
seen is I mean this ranges fromlike companies that are
startups that have $100,000 ayear in sales to billion dollar
companies.
Jim Wilcox (22:07):
It's every business.
Stefanie Couch (22:08):
They have the data.
A lot of times they do actuallyhave some data, but they don't
know what to do with it.
Or, in a smaller business, theydon't.
They just don't even have any.
They don't know what any oftheir numbers are.
And when you start to thinkabout making these giant
decisions that we make in ourbusinesses every day by gut
feeling, only without anynumbers, it's really scary.
And you can you could literallycrush the business because of
(22:30):
something like that.
So I think the more we caneducate salespeople and really
anyone on the fact that this isnot a babysitter the word
babysitters I've always heardfrom my sales teams.
You know, guys, I've got to getout of this customer's yard and
sit in my car for 15 minutesand write notes in the CRM, and
you know it's just a pain forthem.
But if you start to think of itas an actual kind of a tale of,
(22:54):
hey, here's what actually wecould do if you did this, in a
way we could use this data.
One thing that I see as a realopportunity for our industry is
figuring out what customers weactually should be focusing on,
because I feel, like so manybusinesses, they will.
They'll sell to anyone thatkind of walks in the door or
calls, and if you did have thedata of saying, hey, 80% of the
(23:17):
time when we go with this A typeof customer, we don't get paid,
we get burned, we get you know,well, maybe we should go with
this 20% that actually couldfill the whole business and go
after them.
If you don't know the numbers,you just you have no clue on
that stuff.
Jim Wilcox (23:31):
Yeah, one of the things we work with in fact,
it's one of the sessions I'vedone this week being here is
around client segmentation.
Done this week being here isaround client segmentation, and
so we train every single clienton a client segmentation
strategy called CARE, whichstands for clients that I want
to keep, attain, recapture andexpand.
There's three steps that wetake with CARE.
(23:54):
The first one is how do weidentify them?
What do they look like?
Now, what's interesting is whenyou really get granular on the
clients you want to keep and theclients you want to attain, the
unintended or intended outcomeof that is I can develop an
ideal client profile, and thatspeaks to the 20% that you were
talking about.
(24:15):
If I know that now, I can beginto be more targeted in the
areas that I'm going after onthe attain side.
What's interesting on the keepside is there are a lot of
clients that I have that maybethey're not the ideal client,
right, so now it gives me theopportunity to relook at that.
(24:35):
And then there are clients Iwant to recapture and expand.
So how do we identify them?
Second step is what do we dowith them when we, now that
we've got them in our sites.
Those clients get treatedslightly differently.
Right, I'm going to treat mykeep client a little bit
differently than my, expand myrecapture a little bit different
than my attain.
The last step, then, is what'smy 90 day over 90 day plan?
(24:58):
So now I have a strategy to goout and be very targeted and
balanced in my approach as I'mgoing out and navigating my
territory as somebody who has todevelop business as part of my
role with focus on hey, how muchtime do I spend on totally new
(25:19):
business, like never seen thisperson before?
Stefanie Couch (25:21):
And then sometimes the nurturing and the
upkeep on current customers getsput to the wayside.
And then you have some peoplethat are more nurturers and
they're out just nurturing allthe time and don't ever get new
business.
I feel like usually people arebetter at one or the other and
they feel so comfortable in thatthat they get locked in.
So it's great to have a processthat you're actually thinking
about that upfront.
Jim Wilcox (25:42):
Well, not only that, but you alluded to us being
predictable.
We're very predictable as humanbeings and as a salesperson
myself.
The easiest place for me to gois to play clients that already
like me, or if I know that I'vegot a relationship and somebody
will welcome me in.
That's easy, but that's notalways or necessarily what sales
(26:06):
is about.
I've got to go out and disruptrelationships.
I've got to go out and walkonto that lumberyard where
nobody knows me, or it's been ahot minute since I've talked to
anybody there and be bold enoughto get into a conversation.
That's not comfortable always.
Stefanie Couch (26:22):
Yeah, I think that exact moment that you just
described is why 99% of peoplein the world say they hate sales
.
It's because they don't want todo that uncomfortable thing.
Humans usually don't, I mean,most of us don't like to do the
hard things.
It feels icky and we don't wantto go there.
But true salespeople love thatadventure and think it's fun.
(26:43):
But maybe we're just the crazyones, I don't know.
Jim Wilcox (26:45):
Maybe.
Yeah, we don't have a problembeing told no right.
Stefanie Couch (26:49):
It just means not yet to us for sure.
Well, this has been such agreat conversation.
Jim Wilcox (26:53):
I do want to end with one last question for you,
If you were 20-year-old, jim,and you could give yourself one
piece of advice, what would itbe?
Stefanie Couch (27:06):
Oh my gosh, it can be around sales, since we've
been talking about sales thewhole time.
Jim Wilcox (27:08):
What would?
Stefanie Couch (27:09):
it be.
Jim Wilcox (27:10):
You know, a lot of our clients will say this and I
said it.
And actually, if I back up,there are two things.
So I spent five years as aclient of Sandler and when our
owners came to me and said, hey,we're going to do training, I
thought, great, we hired someschmuck who can't sell, so now
(27:30):
he's training right.
You know the old adage thosethat can't do teach.
I quickly learned that was notthe case, very blessed to have
an amazing trainer.
The other thing that I hear fromclients is where was this?
20 years ago?
I had had 15 years or so ofsales experience coming into
Sandler and that was one of thevery first things I said was
where was this 15 years ago?
(27:51):
And this will sound weird, butI think if you have any solid
process that you could, youcould lean into and own.
Now I'm biased, right, becauseI'm a Sandler trainer.
I do think Sandler is the best.
We are the 800 pound gorilla inthe room.
But you know you have a choiceto make.
(28:12):
I think Nick Saban is creditedwith saying look, you got five
choices.
You can be bad, you can beaverage, you can be good, you
can be exceptional or you can beelite, right.
So having a process to fallback on, because most of us
learn sales by figuring it outright?
So if I have a process and I'mmaking a decision on what I want
(28:33):
to be, then I can go all in tothe degree that I want to be
elite, right.
So I'm going to go all in.
And again, that has me goingwhere was this 20 years ago?
Or 15 years ago?
Stefanie Couch (28:45):
Absolutely.
I think it's so important tospend the time and develop your
skills, and sales is a skill,for sure, and it does get, I
guess, labeled as a gut instinctor like you either have it or
you don't.
But I don't really believealmost anything in life is that
way.
I think that maybe some peopleare more naturally inclined or
talented, based on personalityor risk ability and taking
(29:08):
things that are hard and lovingit, yeah.
But even people that are bornthat way, with those processes
and that kind of framework, canjust hockey stick, and that's
always a good thing when you'remaking commissions or when
you're selling.
So if someone is listening andwants to connect with you and is
interested in learning moreabout what you do, how can they
find you?
Jim Wilcox (29:28):
My email is jimwillcox at Sandler
S-A-N-D-L-E-R.
com.
I'm on LinkedIn, jim Wilcox,sandler, indiana, north Carolina
.
Those are my two.
I've got offices in both states.
Okay, you can find me onLinkedIn very active on LinkedIn
, so it shouldn't be too hard tofind me.
Stefanie Couch (29:45):
Very good.
Well, I'm excited for a greatmarket.
I am too, and thank you forspending a little time with me.
Jim Wilcox (29:50):
Thanks for having me .
Stefanie Couch (29:51):
That's it for this episode of the Grit
Blueprint Podcast.
For more tools, training andindustry content, make sure to
subscribe here and follow me onLinkedIn and other social media
platforms.
To find out more about how GritBlueprint can help you grow
your business.
Check us out at our website,gritblueprintcom.
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