April 29, 2025 • 42 mins
The building materials industry is evolving with technological advances and operational challenges, requiring dealers to execute strategically rather than rely on market tailwinds. The conversation explores how independents can compete with growing consolidation trends by identifying specific market needs and providing services that larger companies can't match.
• The industry needs to improve recruitment of minorities and women to address talent shortages
• Data analytics reveals surprising insights about customer profitability that challenge conventional wisdom
• Technologies like electronic shelf labels and repurposed security cameras offer competitive advantages with 18-month ROI
• Specialty dealers are consolidating faster than lumberyards due to product consistency and lower inventory management challenges
• Installed sales, particularly for complex products like windows and doors, represent significant growth opportunities
• Co-ops provide independent dealers with buying power to compete against larger competitors
• The Construction Supply 150 report provides benchmarking data on sales per store, technology adoption, and staffing challenges
To learn more about industry trends and connect with Craig Webb, visit webb-analytics.com or follow him on LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Craig Webb (00:00):
This country is full of needs, of people who need a
lumber yard in their county.
As long as you can find peoplewho can support you and supply
to you, and as long as you canprovide a service that other
people aren't giving, there areopportunities to move ahead and
move up.
Stefanie Couch (00:17):
I think if we can help people understand what
is to be gained to be in thisindustry, there is so much
opportunity here.
Craig Webb (00:24):
I agree with you.
I think where we're fallingshort right now is working
harder to recruit minorities,and that is something that I
think to get to the kids in theschools and help them understand
that this is a career you canhave and you can really do well.
Stefanie Couch (00:37):
I think data is one of the worst things in our
industry, as far as we have alot of it, but we don't know
what to do with it or how toextrapolate it.
Craig Webb (00:44):
There's been some interesting discoveries too
recently, like what is the costof serving your customer.
We're still not seeing a lot ofdealers get into it, but those
who are are sometimes gettingvery surprising results as to
whether their best customersactually are their best
customers.
Stefanie Couch (01:02):
Welcome to the Grit Blueprint Podcast, the show
for bold builders, brandleaders and legacy makers in the
construction and buildingindustry.
I'm your host, stephanie Couch,and I've been in this industry
my entire life.
Whether we're breaking downwhat's working in sales and
marketing, new advances in AIand automation, or interviewing
(01:26):
top industry leaders, you'regoing to get real world
strategies to grow your business, build your brand and lead your
team.
Let's get to work.
Thank you for joining me on theGrit Blueprint Podcast.
I'm Stephanie Couch and todayI'm live in Orlando, florida,
with my friend, craig Webb fromWeb Analytics.
(01:47):
Hi, craig, good morning, hithere.
Craig Webb (01:48):
How are you?
Stefanie Couch (01:49):
Doing.
Great Thanks for joining metoday.
Craig Webb (01:51):
I appreciate the opportunity.
Stefanie Couch (01:52):
We have been seeing each other all over.
I know you travel a lot.
Trade show season is coming toa close in the spring at least
and we are wrapping it up hereat the Do it Best Market.
How has this trade show seasonbeen for you so far?
Craig Webb (02:05):
Well, it's been an exciting time.
I think people are combinationnervous and excited about where
things are heading.
I think they realize that it'sgoing to be a hard slog this
year and they are facing thereality that there is no
tailwind this year.
There's no exciting, dramaticrise in prices that are going to
(02:28):
get them forward.
I've been telling people thatit's like being on a paddle
board the only way you getforward is to do your own
paddling.
Stefanie Couch (02:34):
Yeah, and it hasn't been that way for a while
.
I mean, you know, the last fouror five years has just been
such a swell and if you were inthe game you were doing well,
and now you've actually got to,like you said, be rowing and be
working and thinking aboutthings.
Maybe that you haven't thoughtabout.
Craig Webb (02:49):
That's why this year is probably going to be about
execution and the quality ofyour operation, as opposed to
just standing at the door andwaiting for people to rush in.
Stefanie Couch (02:58):
Yeah, no more shooting fish in a bucket, I
guess.
Well, it's been a relativelyexciting week.
I saw yesterday that you werecovering the QXO beacon
acquisition.
Finally got word that that isgoing to go through.
I have spent some time studyingBrad Jacobs and I know you've
met with him.
Pretty interesting.
What's the latest thought onthat?
Craig Webb (03:19):
Well, the latest thought on that should be
encouraging to everyone else inconstruction supply, which is to
say that a man who thinks interms of billions of dollars
sees potential in theconstruction supply industry,
and the fact that he believesthat this is where you can make
some decent money should be asign to everyone else that this
is a place where you can makesome decent money.
Stefanie Couch (03:40):
Absolutely.
And I feel like one other thingthat we should take from Brad
decent money Absolutely.
And I feel like one other thingthat we should take from Brad
obviously a brilliant, brilliantman has built $8 billion
companies eight different times,gone to a billion which is
almost unheard of and gonepublic that many times is that
he believes strongly thattechnology is what's going to
take our industry to the nextlevel.
He's already hired a chief AIofficer who used to work at
(04:04):
Target as an AI officer, andsome other companies.
We need to be thinking,especially in small to
mid-market businesses, about howwe can use technology to take
our business to the next level.
If people think that it's nothere already and they're waiting
and they're going to see whathappens, they will be left
behind.
I think it's important to bethinking about that.
Craig Webb (04:25):
I think that it is important to be thinking about
that Now.
Frankly, there's not.
It doesn't really matter.
I think so much that you're onthe bleeding edge of technology.
If you can just sit back andwatch a little bit to see what
bigger companies are doing,other dealers are doing, there
are those opportunities thatwill come along and the prices
(04:48):
will be a little bit lower andthe opportunities will be better
.
That's not to say that youshould just become an ostrich
and stick your head in the sandand wait several years for
things to come along.
You need to be aware of what'sgoing on, but I don't think you
necessarily need to be the firstout of the gate.
This is still a people business, and figuring out how to mix
(05:11):
those people and make thosepeople more technologically
enabled is, I think, one of thenames of the game.
Stefanie Couch (05:16):
Yeah, and I don't think it's going to ever
go away from the people part ofthe business.
I think it's just allowing,hopefully, tech to help our
people do things that onlypeople can do and take some of
those little processes likecollecting data and how do we
use that stuff and put that intothe technology?
We've seen so many marketshifts in the last three to five
years with M&A and that's ahuge thing that we're seeing.
(05:40):
Nation's Best is one of the Doit Best members.
That's here Chris Miller andhis team, uslbm, bfs.
There's many Home Depotacquisition of SRS.
How does mergers andacquisitions?
What do you see that doing inthe next 18 to 24 months and how
do you think it changes theface of our business?
Can independents staycompetitive with these big dogs
(06:01):
just continuing to get bigger?
Craig Webb (06:03):
Well, one of the great things about the supply
channel in the United States isthat it's not one supply channel
.
The people who are big buildershave different needs than the
people who are custom builders,who are different than the
people who are home flippers,who are different than the
people who are remodelers andconsumers, and consequently it's
possible to have severaldifferent types of building
(06:23):
material dealers in the samemarket.
A good example of that isMinneapolis, where you've almost
got layers of dealers whospecialize in particular things.
So, in one sense, if you wantto be the Godzilla of lumber
yards, there's only a couple ofpeople up there who are going to
(06:44):
be in that position.
But, then again, this country isfull of needs, of people who
need a lumber yard in theircounty and maybe the lumber yard
is owned by people in the nextcounty over and it's a two
branch yard or whatever.
But we're going to continue tosee that and that's not going to
go away.
Stefanie Couch (07:05):
I grew up in a family lumber business who ended
up selling to someone else isstill independent and I think a
lot about.
Should I go back and open alumber or should I buy that
lumber yard back?
What would you say to someonelike me that has some experience
, or someone maybe that justthinks it's a good idea, that
wants to open an independentlumberyard or specialty door and
(07:26):
window location.
What would you say to them?
Are they crazy or is it a goodidea?
Craig Webb (07:30):
No, they're not crazy.
Actually, when I'm keepingtrack of building material
dealers openings, enclosures andacquisitions, there are some
greenfield places out there inwhich people saw the need, in
their county or in their area,to open up.
As long as you can find peoplewho can support you and supply
(07:50):
to you, and as long as you canprovide a service that other
people aren't giving, there areopportunities to move ahead and
move up.
Stefanie Couch (07:59):
I only think about it once or twice a day.
I have a few other things inthe pipeline that I'm doing, but
it's hard because retail is atough game.
But where I live is a reallyinteresting area that, like I
said, it does appeal to me.
But I think that this isanother thing.
When we think aboutspecifically in LBM, but even in
(08:21):
specialty building materialslike let's think about
remodeling windows, doors, allthese things that are coming
down the pipeline, remodeling,zonda says, is going to be a
huge uptick in the next sixyears.
Five to six years.
If you could really, like yousaid, hone in on an area that
needs something and there'sgoing to be a wave of that, it
could be a very profitablebusiness and most people might
(08:43):
not want to go to a big dealerto buy that.
They want someone local orthose contractors.
So I think there is a market.
It's interesting to think aboutthat.
You actually have come out witha report recently talking about
the growth curve of lumberyards versus specialty dealers
and how that's growing sort ofat a different rate.
Can you talk a little moreabout that, what you're seeing?
Craig Webb (09:03):
Well, first to define the people who sell
lumber mainly for a living,that's what I call them lumber
yards.
Everybody else who mightspecialize in selling non-lumber
, non-framing material parts ofthe house, that's what we're
calling specialty dealers.
So the roofers, the drywallers,the people who are selling
siding and the like.
We're seeing a lot more and alot faster consolidation in the
(09:27):
specialty building materialplace, in part because the
number of SKUs that you need,the number of products that you
need and how long they last inthe yard are different than when
you've got wood.
Wood unfortunately tends to geta little old pretty fast, so
(09:48):
you've got to move it, you'vegot to do different things with
it and the specialty dealersthat sort of lends itself a
little bit more toward havingthings more consistent across
the country as well as how youbuy your materials.
I think it's one reason whyBrad Jacobs went for a specialty
dealer rather than for alumberyard first.
Stefanie Couch (10:10):
Yeah, I agree totally.
I think that that commoditybusiness is a hard game and with
all the things that arepossibly coming down the pipe
with tariffs and all of thisstuff going on with
environmental things, we don'treally know what the lumber
market is going to do with that.
What are your gut feelings onthat?
I mean, obviously it's stillreally up in the air, but I know
you're very connected.
You were a reporter for years,you still are a reporter and
(10:33):
your pulse couldn't be any moreon the vein there.
What do you think is going tohappen with tariffs?
No pressure, no pressure.
Craig Webb (10:43):
No pressure.
Well, the first thing thatpopped into my head is well,
what is this going to broadcast?
Because certainly, as of today,it's a whole different game
than April 2nd and the like andwhat's happening after that.
Now there's two things that weshould remember about tariffs,
(11:05):
because we tend to use the wordto mean two different things.
There are duties andcountervailing duties that the
government imposes on productsthat it believes are being
unfairly sold at a low price,and those already exist for
building materials, particularlylumber.
Then there are tariffs whichare really more of a political
(11:25):
act, in which you say I'm justgoing to slap this on you
because I want to get some extramoney and I want to really
punish you for what I believe isunfair trade, and we're going
to have duties rising no matterwhat, because the government's
just determined that, in termsof lumber, those numbers have to
(11:46):
rise a little bit.
The tariffs are more of apolitical negotiation situation,
and that's going to reallydepend on whether the bourbon
makers get angry and the farmersget angry at the government and
try to negotiate differentdeals.
Stefanie Couch (12:02):
Yeah, it's going to be an interesting month or
two, I think, for all of us andeveryone's sort of watching with
bated breath.
But the truth is that we canonly do so much, and I think
what you said to open thepodcast really is.
What reigns true for me is thataction and execution are the
things that all of us cancontrol and we can focus on, and
that is what we should bespending our time hopefully
(12:22):
working on in our businessesinstead of, you know, thinking
about the myriad of things thatare keeping us up at night that
we can't control.
But speaking of keeping dealersand distributors in our
business up at night, what are afew of the things that you
think we?
You talk to a ton of people outin the market.
You're one of the mostconnected people in our industry
(12:42):
.
What are you hearing that arekeeping people up at night?
What are they worried about intheir business?
Craig Webb (12:48):
Well, I think in general they're worried about
the inability to plan.
That's sort of driving themcrazy right now.
If prices go up, they'll justcharge higher prices.
They're not seen as themalefactors of evil when it
comes to pricing.
I do think that they worry agreat deal about their staff and
(13:11):
finding staff and finding goodstaff.
They worry about successionplanning, and if one of their
key employees gets hit by a beertruck one day, how do they
handle that?
I think they do worry about anew competitor coming to town,
but I think, more generally, Ithink they worry about the state
(13:34):
of the economy in theirparticular market.
There's this general beliefthat when we talk about the
housing market, it's as ifhouses are distributed and built
in a spread out area across thewhole country.
The truth is is that thehousing market in the United
States is really about fivestates.
Stefanie Couch (13:52):
Yeah, mostly in the southeast right now.
Craig Webb (13:54):
Mostly in the southeast.
Yeah, texas, florida, arizona,california, charlotte, north
Carolina, those sorts of places.
But then you know you get theentire three quarters, five, six
of the country.
That's not their market.
It's a whole different thing.
I remember one dealer who saidto me we don't have housing
starts in my market.
Stefanie Couch (14:12):
We have housing start, yeah it's really
interesting to think about that,because you know I'm from
Georgia but I lived in Texas andworked there for a while,
started a big distributionlocation in Houston and Dallas
and there's no busier marketsthan that, absolutely.
You know it's when you start tolook at the population and then
I also worked in the Orlandomarket.
(14:32):
So when you get that kind ofthat kind of hockey stick growth
, you start to get on fire andthen to think about going to a
smaller market where there is nofire, there's maybe one flame
like one match burning.
It is a very differentconnotation and I do think when
people think about planning andforecasting and hiring, you know
(14:53):
, hiring one person in a marketwhere you really aren't sure
will we have 10 starts and willI get a 10th of those in my
market, that's really hard tothink about.
Talking about talent, I do.
I see here the same thing.
You know, people thinking abouthow are we going to get and
train and retain top talent?
Yes.
What's going to happen whenthese amazing leaders in our
(15:15):
company that are 55, 65 rangestart to retire, and that does
keep a lot of people up at night?
How do we combat that in ourindustry?
What do you think is the answerto getting people that are
younger to want to come work inLBM?
Craig Webb (15:33):
Well, sometimes I joke that nobody in most
communities know who my readersare, because their stores are
located by the railroad tracksin the bad part of town, and I
think that there is this imagethat we have of being, you know,
hot and nasty and behind thetimes and the like, and I think
(15:54):
it just takes early, early,early explanations of what's
going on, and I've beenfascinated at the number of
children's books that have beencreated by the foresters, by the
roofers, by the builders, booksthat are promoting women in the
industry, the house that shebuilt and the like there are, to
(16:17):
borrow a phrase from George HWBush, george Bush I that he
talked about a thousand pointsof light, and there actually are
a thousand points of light outthere in terms of individual
activities by people to promotethings.
Now, the second thing that's inour favor right now is that I
(16:38):
think America has finally gottenrid of the notion that you have
to go to college in order tosucceed.
Sure, and that has changedthings too, in part because the
plumbers are making more thanthe pros yeah, with no student
loan debt.
That's right.
Or, as you know, my pickuptruck costs more than your
(16:59):
Mercedes, yeah, and so you'restarting to see that happen too.
But I think it has to be asteady, full court press on the
next generation of Americans tomake them understand.
Now I will add one more thingthat I think is one of the more
fascinating trends over the last18 years, and that is the
(17:21):
greater number of women who aretaking over building material
dealers.
They are frequently inheritingthem from their fathers, yeah,
and perhaps in the old days, ifSonny Boy wasn't interested,
then the place got sold.
Now the woman's taking over,and that's a whole different
group of people, a wholedifferent network.
Sure, sometimes I think that alot of lumber yards consist of
(17:43):
people who play together on thehigh school football team, and
now we're starting to see adifferent group.
Stefanie Couch (17:49):
Yeah, I agree, and I actually was with you in
the National Harbor Show lastweek and we actually had a
women's event that my company,build Women, co-sponsored with
them and there was just so manyamazing women there.
And I know HBS Dealer has ahuge event.
A lot of the bigger companiesare having their own in-house
events and it is going to bemore frequent as we keep doing
(18:10):
these things, to see women thatare leading and really doing an
exceptional job, and I thinkmost companies and most men in
the industry are wildlysupportive of that.
I mean, I've had more mensupport me than women because
they're just out there.
You know the men are verysupportive.
Someone here at Do it Best,russ Catherine, has been so
welcoming, and Eric Knox anotherone.
(18:30):
For me, it's like it doesn'tmatter that I'm a woman.
I mean, yes, I stand out alittle bit in a pink hat and a
dress because I look differentthan most of the other women on
the floor, and that's the thingis, I never feel hardly ever
feel like it's a disadvantage.
I almost always feel like it'san advantage for me, and so I
think, if you can see that, as awoman being that, it is an
(18:51):
advantage and look at it fromthat perception and that frame,
you can really do a lot in thisindustry.
And going back to the schoolswith the kids and the students
and the books, I think it is abranding issue of, hey, how
early can we start to showpeople that this is an option?
I remember growing up in mydad's lumberyard.
A few times when I was young Ithought, oh well, you know, this
(19:12):
person's dad's a lawyer, herdad's a doctor.
All my friends had differentprofessions that their parents
did and I thought, well, my dadowns a lumber yard and sometimes
I didn't think that was areally cool thing because it
wasn't shiny like those otherthings.
Now I'm like my dad owned a bigbusiness and he was killing it
and he was very successful andprobably made a lot more money
(19:34):
than their dads did.
Not that it's all about that,but I just didn't have that
frame and so I think if we canhelp people understand what is
to be gained to be in thisindustry and also home services
and things like that, there isso much opportunity here.
Craig Webb (19:49):
I agree with you.
I think where we're fallingshort right now is working
harder to recruit minorities.
Even to this day, the number ofblack faces that you see is
very, very few More Hispanicsactually than blacks and that is
something that I think, onceagain, to get to the kids in the
(20:09):
schools and help themunderstand that this is a career
you can have and you don't youknow, even if you do go to a
college, you can come back andyou can really do well,
absolutely you can come back andyou can really do well,
Absolutely.
Stefanie Couch (20:23):
And I think that with the next five years to 10
years over, they say over 40% ofour industry is going to be
retiring.
It actually could be more thanthat.
Depending on how some of thesepeople they made so much money
the last few years, Some of themmight, if it gets tough, they
might not want to stay in foranother five to 10 years.
They might retire early.
Go do something else, go playgolf, go do whatever they want
to do, and I think it'simportant right now to start to
(20:44):
get that next generation in.
And then the next problem wegot to solve is the training
issue is that we don't, ashistorically most business I've
ever seen have, hey, go sit byCraig and listen to what he says
and learn everything he knows.
And if Craig decides, like yousaid, to leave tomorrow without
any notice or get sick or hitsby bus, or if I decide I want to
(21:06):
go work for someone else,people are terrified of losing
that intrinsic knowledge that'sin there with the people that
are running the business.
Is there a way that we can getpeople to spend the time to
create a training program thatactually works up front?
Craig Webb (21:21):
Well, there are a number of companies out there
that are engaged in trainingprograms and are starting to
work on this.
I just was talking with anexecutive at the Home Depot
who's developing an entiretraining program.
I mean, greg Brooks has beendoing this for years.
You know, casey Voorheestravels around the country
teaching people how to domaterial takeoffs.
(21:43):
I met a German fellow namedWolfgang Zuputzlitz who is over
there and working with DIYcenters, but a lot of his
technology can be brought over.
The understanding that has tohave on the part of the new
employee is that once they gothired, they might have been
(22:04):
hired for attitude, but theyweren't being hired for skill,
and that their education is onlybeginning Now.
If you go to work for ABCSupply, you get a six-week
training class when you gethired and they know that at the
very start class.
When you get hired, and theyknow that at the very start
you're going to have to know.
(22:27):
You know what is, what isroofing, and a lot of us on the
lumberyard side haven't thoughtas much about that.
But in many ways our world iseven more complicated than the
others.
Stefanie Couch (22:33):
Yeah, I mean something as simple as why is a
two by four not actually twoinches wide?
Why does it measure one and ahalf?
And I, you know, I think about.
I come from a door window,millwork background, talk about
complicated.
You know you have 15 questionson a simple, simple door and if
you get one of those questionswrong, the door is wrong, right
(22:53):
and it.
It's usually a custom builtthing, so it's not like a bundle
of two befores where if youaccidentally send eight foot
pre-cuts instead of nine footpre-cuts you can just put it
back on the yard and resell it.
That door is probably trash atthat point, or salvage at least.
Craig Webb (23:06):
True, you know, as Le Corbusier said, a house is a
machine that we live in, and Ithink people fail to realize
just how much engineering goesinto that machine.
Stefanie Couch (23:17):
Yeah, for sure, it's definitely complicated, but
the best part about it is thatpeople that want to come into
our business that are young canlearn this.
We all learned it.
I didn't know what a door wasand how to hand a door when I
was born, even though somepeople might think that's how I
came out, since I was born intothe business, but I had to learn
that, just like everyone else,and I think that if you're
hungry and you want to takeaction and learn, you can.
(23:39):
Hopefully we have processes andtraining programs that help
make that easier for people andthat will keep them in the
business so they don't quitafter a few weeks with no
training.
Craig Webb (23:48):
Yeah, I think that frequently, the profession we
get into often relates to whoour best teacher was, and we do
need better teachers in a sense,to have people understand the
marvel that a house is.
Stefanie Couch (24:04):
I agree so much.
Yeah, I think schools havingshop class, having education
classes around construction, isreally a cool thing, and even
with the design aspect of howbeautiful and artistic a lot of
these custom homes could be youknow, the older homes have so
much marvel in them We've lost alittle bit of that art and I
think to bring that back wouldbe really intriguing to a lot of
(24:25):
kids that maybe are artisticthat think, oh well, I'm an art
person, I could go do this thingand design homes Like, how cool
would that be to see that backin our schools.
I think that's a that's amission of mine to somehow
hopefully bring that to besomething kids think about more.
Well, I want to talk transitiona little bit to technology.
(24:45):
Last week you spoke at NHS andyou actually had a cool speech
that I listened to.
You speak about 50 ideas in 50minutes, which I liked because
it had a cat meme in it.
So it was a very entertainingspeech.
But you had a lot of differentthings, ranging from tech to
just, you know, different ideasfor marketing.
But talk to me about just a fewof the ideas that you spoke
(25:06):
about in the tech realm thatpeople should be looking at
thinking about in our businessright now.
Craig Webb (25:13):
Well, from a practical standpoint, of course,
artificial intelligence issomething that a lot of people
are talking about and aredabbling with when it comes to,
let's say, writing a jobdescription or writing a series
of increasingly angry memos toget paid, that sort of thing,
and those are things that I'mseeing dealers dabble in around
(25:34):
the country.
One thing that fascinated me wasto look more on the retail side
of the general economy and askwell, what are retailers around
the country doing that a dealerwould care about, Because every
dealer has a cash register, sothey're a retail business too.
(25:56):
A couple of them that came downthe pike were electronic shelf
labels.
Stefanie Couch (26:00):
Yeah, I had not seen that until you.
I mean.
I had not thought about it forour business.
Craig Webb (26:04):
Pretty cool, if you go to Kohl's or Best Buy.
You tend to see these kind ofyou know raunchy looking black
and white things, but they areso colorful today and they are
so packed full of data and sointeractive, that you can do
things that can really helpboost sales.
The second thing is cameras orsoftware that takes the cameras
(26:27):
you're using right now forsecurity and providing data on
which aisles are crowded themost, which shelves are unfilled
the most.
How do you replenish thingsmore efficiently so that you can
get extra sales?
Those two things.
There was an entire section onbuy online, pick up in store and
how you can do those thingsfancier.
(26:49):
I think that a lot of thesehave been accepted in Europe a
little bit more, in part becausetheir labor costs are higher,
but the costs are starting todrop and, for example, with
electronic shelf labels, thereare dealers I'm talking with who
are doing deals with the labelmanufacturers and they're
(27:09):
getting a payoff in about 18months.
Stefanie Couch (27:11):
Yeah, that's something I really think people
could do.
That's a small investment evenfor, like the cameras you think
about.
If you have an area of yourstore that's getting a ton of
traffic already, maybe you wantto expand that area, maybe you
want to put it on an end cap,maybe you want to put it by the
front of the store.
If you don't know those datapoints, it's really it's hard to
(27:33):
know how to move or what to do.
We're all just going off of alot of gut feeling in our
industry.
You're a data guy.
I love data as well.
I like to look at it visionary,big picture.
After the fact, I'm not in theweeds in the spreadsheets as
much myself, but I think data isone of the worst things in our
industry, as far as we have alot of it but we don't know what
(27:54):
to do with it or how toextrapolate it.
And I think that things likethat, and also accomplishing AI
tools being put into our data tolook at hey, here's this big,
huge spreadsheet that I can'tpossibly take the time to look
through.
What about looking and gettingme these data points with an AI
prompt?
What do you think of that?
(28:14):
Are people doing that yet?
Craig Webb (28:16):
Well, I think we've had a slow and steady change
toward becoming a little bitmore interested in data.
One of them, interestinglyenough, just has to do with how
inflation has figured into ourlives, because people were
constantly measuring themselvesin terms of dollars and they
realized that they needed toalso look at volume.
(28:37):
And so how many sticks am Iselling versus what's the dollar
value of those sticks?
Yeah, so you're starting to seethat.
Second, frankly, our technologyis getting better at being able
to let us visualize what we see, create graphs and charts and
the like, so that we canimmediately spot the differences
(29:00):
in ways that, when you'relooking at a row of numbers, you
just can't get excited about.
So those things are allfiguring in and we're better
able to collect some of the datawe need Now, that said, should
people?
Does this mean people abandonthe old ideas like on time in
full?
No, on time in full probablymeans more than it ever did, but
(29:25):
we need better ways to dothings.
There's been some interestingdiscoveries too recently, like
what is the cost of serving yourcustomer.
We're still not seeing a lot ofdealers get into it, but those
who are are sometimes gettingvery surprising results as to
whether their best customersactually are their best
customers.
Stefanie Couch (29:44):
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting
point that I see a lot in mywork with people is when you ask
people who they serve, theanswer is almost everyone that
walks in the door almost everytime.
You know we have a fewcompanies where they're serving
B2C, they're serving contractors, they're serving DIY, they're
serving commercial I mean,everybody that could buy is
(30:07):
buying.
And then when you start to ask,well, what is your
profitability on each segment ofthat?
They have a top line numberthat they think is somewhere
around what it is, but itdoesn't dig into the cost of
serving anyway.
And so there probably issomewhere in that mix that two
or three of those channelsprobably might need to go away
totally or either raise theprices or whatever it is.
(30:28):
And also, when you send yoursales team out to try to say go
get business, you have just toomany people that they go out to
and they don't even have a realplan of let's go execute on this
exact person.
And I think that data, if youcould get down to that brass
tacks of this person, this exactthing, is what our perfect
(30:49):
customer is and know that, thenyou might actually spend way
less time and effort to makemore money with those people.
Do you see people?
Is anyone doing that?
Really well, you don't have toname names, but are people
starting to think about that in?
Craig Webb (31:02):
our industry.
Well, I am seeing some dealerswho are deciding that, yes,
certain types of customers arethe ones they want to go after.
I remember one person this isin a related industry who
purposely set up his website sothat it wouldn't go for the very
richest people, it wouldn't gofor the very poorest people, it
would go for the people inbetween because, he realized the
(31:24):
very richest people were theones who were going to give him
the most grief on projects andultimately cost him money.
He wanted people who were alittle bit more accepting of his
advice and his ideas.
And that's where he was, that'swhere his target was.
And then I've also seen certainpeople have decided well, I'm
going to be really, really good,for example, on millwork, and
(31:45):
I'm not really going to havethat big of a store that you
walk into.
So you know, I'm not reallyencouraging foot traffic, I'm
really encouraging other people.
Now there's one dealer Iremember visiting.
You walk to the front door andit says unless you are prepared
to do at least $100,000 worth ofbusiness with me, please go to
(32:06):
blankety, blank big box down thestreet.
Stefanie Couch (32:08):
That's funny.
Well, and there's something tobe said for being bold enough to
pick your stake and put yourstake in the ground and say this
is where I'm going to stand andthis is what I'm going to do.
I do think that there's somebold disruptors out there in our
industry.
Obviously, brad Jacobs is theone that comes to mind the most
for me being a disruptor, but healso is a disruptor with a ton
(32:29):
of money and a lot of backingand a lot of publicity.
Are there disruptors out therethat you think are doing some
really cool stuff in ourindustry, that you see and
you're like, wow, that's areally cool thing they're doing,
or that person you're watching,or that company you're watching
, anything that stands out toyou?
Craig Webb (32:48):
Well, usually if somebody does something
successfully in the first year,everybody else is glomming onto
it.
I'm not even sure Brad Jacobsis a disruptor.
Yet All Brad Jacobs did is justspend $11 billion to buy a
company.
We don't know if the companyhe's bought is going to be
dramatically different in thefuture or even dramatically
(33:09):
better.
In some ways, a lot of the racein our business is sort of like
NASCAR the winner is six inchesahead of the other one at the
finish line.
It's not like we have peoplejumping in leaps and bounds
ahead.
Now I have seen some people.
(33:31):
I have seen some general trendsthat people are getting into.
One is more installed sales,certainly the acquisition of
trust companies to provide agreater share of wallet and to
get that value add.
Stefanie Couch (33:49):
Yeah and after COVID, that was such a huge
point of contention for peoplethat they couldn't get trusses,
so then they couldn't build therest of the house, so then
people were just sitting andwaiting.
So I see why people want to dothat Same thing with door shops.
I see people putting in, youknow, installed with door shops,
and then, like you said,installed turnkey all the way.
I think from a homeownerperception, I totally understand
(34:10):
why people want that.
Because if you think about youfind a great supplier, you as a
homeowner you buy a door, butthen you've got to have someone
to install it and then that getssketchy.
Because what if you findsomeone who doesn't know what
they're doing and the door orwindows leak and these big
projects that cost so much, youliterally could have to redo the
entire thing.
(34:31):
And that way if you buysomething from someone that does
the whole process, even if it'sa 1099 contractor they're
hiring, they own it and you havethe face to go back into that
place and look that person inthe eye at the counter and say,
stephanie, you sold me a crappybill of goods, you're going to
make it right.
You don't know if thatcontractor in a truck is going
to answer the phone or if you'llever see him or her again.
Craig Webb (34:53):
Yeah, and if I'm a builder, I know that installing
a window or installing a doorare two of the parts of the
house that are most crucial andmost challenging.
So if the building materialdealer who's selling me the door
also offers to install, it.
I'm going to want to jump onthat opportunity and it's extra
money that can be made and italso makes the window
(35:16):
manufacturer happy.
Absolutely Because they don'thave as many callbacks.
Stefanie Couch (35:19):
Yeah, window manufacturer happy, absolutely,
because they don't have as manycallbacks.
Yeah, and on these huge doors, Imean at IBS this year we saw
every single thing that we sawwas bigger and I mean it's
insane.
They're like 20 feet wide, 14feet tall and you think about
just the capacity of most normalpeople.
Like you think of a framertrying to install that thing.
That is a nightmare, likeyou're just asking for it.
(35:39):
So the more you do those typesof installs, the more you know
how to do it and those peoplethat are just doing that are
really good at it.
So I think it makes sense and Ithink, as we see, I do think
people are going to specializemore as we see growth.
And if I were going to start abusiness today, knowing what I
know with my, my industryknowledge, something like an
(36:00):
installed sales crew for windowsor doors or something that is
tough, is a great business toget into because there's just
not that many people out theredoing it well, Some of the most
interesting purchases recentlyhave been involving window and
door specialists.
Craig Webb (36:16):
That's what Kodiak Building Products has done in
USLBM.
And so, yes, I have said atvarious times to longtime
lumberyard owners well, if youdidn't have that family history,
if you were just to start rightfrom fresh, what would you do?
They all start thinking andlooking and they'd say if you
were just to start right fromfresh, what would you do?
And they all start thinking andlooking and they'd say, well,
(36:37):
I'm not sure I would sell lumber.
Stefanie Couch (36:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's , it's.
It's a hard game to be in.
I mean, you know and it's uh it.
My dad used to say when it's upit's good, and when it's bad
it's bad, like it is a bad daywhen the lumber market crashes,
and it's always been to me.
Like going to Vegas and puttingit all in red.
It is a little bit like agambling game.
Craig Webb (36:56):
And this is one of the things I think that when
you're asking about what are thechanges that have happened with
dealers over the years, I thinka lot of dealers in the old
days started as almost likefruit and vegetable merchants.
They bought their goods in themorning and then they sold them
in the afternoon and they livedor died based on what happened
with the changes in the pricethe afternoon, and they lived or
died based on what happenedwith the changes in the price.
(37:16):
I think better dealers todayare controlling that a little
better, partly because they canbuy better, because they're
using co-ops and the like andthey're actually not counting on
the rise or fall of lumber tomake their money.
They're counting on theiroperational skills to make the
money.
Stefanie Couch (37:33):
Yeah, that's a big deal.
And you know, like you said,especially with independents,
co-ops like Do it Best, theyallow them to leverage the size
of that co-op and then you don'thave to be a $5, $10 billion
company.
You can buy with the power ofthat without being that.
With having one locallumberyard you can still
leverage that.
(37:53):
So I think dealers have gottenmore savvy on that and also
co-ops have gotten bigger.
So you know, like Do it Best ishuge.
Now with True Value and Unitedthey have more buying power
themselves.
So it's leveraging that andpeople are just having to get a
little bit more cunning andsmart about how they're buying.
Well, the last question I wantto ask you you have a big report
coming out May 1st and I knowtalk a little bit about.
(38:16):
Maybe there's one person in theworld that doesn't know about
your report.
It's everywhere, so most peopleread it.
What is this report and whatcan we expect from this version
of it in May?
Craig Webb (38:29):
Well, it's called the Construction Supply 150.
An attempt to talk about thesize and scope of the
construction supply industry inAmerica, from the Home Depot
down to modest local stores.
So we track the revenues ofabout 150 companies, but we try
to give historical perspectiveover the last years.
(38:49):
We try to provide a lot ofbenchmarks on sales per store or
sales per employee, that sortof thing.
We have other information abouttechnology being used where you
do your takeoffs.
This year I'm asking questionsabout affiliation with co-ops
and whether you're changing youraffiliation, as is a big
(39:11):
subject these days.
But also people questions whereare the hardest people to find?
So it's a combination reportthat not only tries to measure
the industry but also get deepinside the operational issues
that dealers face that they canthen use as a guide for them to
decide how they compare withthese benchmarks.
Stefanie Couch (39:35):
Yeah, it's something that I wait for every
time it comes out, because it isvery much kind of the only
place you can find a lot of thisinformation.
You're doing something thatalmost I haven't seen anyone
else do, so kudos to you forputting that out there.
You have obviously a researchand reporting background, so
it's your love language, I knowfor sure, and any like scathing,
(39:55):
crazy things that you didn'texpect going to be in this
report.
Craig Webb (39:59):
Scathing, crazy things.
No, the biggest challenge Ialways have is trying to come up
with the magic metaphor youknow on the front, and in past
years we've had surfers, we'vehad carousels going up and down,
we've had surfers, We've had.
We've had carousels going upand down.
We've had size.
I'm trying to decide whetherslogging through mud is going to
be this year's thing.
Stefanie Couch (40:20):
Well you said the paddleboard, so maybe it's
that you know the sweatypaddleboarder that's just trying
to get just a little bitfurther down and, you know, not
fall off and drown or burn inthe sun.
But I think it's really coolthat you are leading the way
here with data in our industry.
You're obviously a brilliantmind that's been here a long
(40:40):
time and you're very wellrespected.
If people want to work with youat Web Analytics, talk a little
bit more about exactly what youdo for individuals or dealers
that want to work and then howthey can contact you.
Craig Webb (40:52):
Well, the easiest way to contact me is through my
website, which is web2b webW-E-B-B hyphen analyticscom.
Okay, and you can reach out tome that way and that's how you
can get the reports and read mynews.
I suggest you follow me onLinkedIn.
I have found that that's theeasiest way for me to get
headlines out to people.
(41:13):
I've got about nearly 18,000people on LinkedIn who are
reading me, which is probablybetter daily than I had when I
was a magazine editor.
Stefanie Couch (41:22):
LinkedIn's a really powerful tool.
I love it.
Craig Webb (41:25):
It can do a great job for you.
I give presentations to peopleon whatever the latest news is,
so every speech is differentfrom the previous speech.
Whatever the latest news is, soevery speech is different from
the previous speech.
And there are times when peoplea lot of times people will call
me up and say do you knowsomebody who does such and such?
(41:48):
And I connect people togetherand it's one of the joys that I
have actually to help introduceone person to another person so
that they can each live a betterlife.
Stefanie Couch (41:54):
That's amazing.
Well, thank you for everythingyou've done and I'm excited to
hopefully collaborate togethermore in the future.
Thank you for coming on theGrit Blueprint podcast and let's
go hit the market floor.
Craig Webb (42:03):
Yes, ma'am.
Stefanie Couch (42:06):
Let's do it.
That's it for this episode ofthe Grit Blueprint podcast.
For more tools, training andindustry content, make sure to
subscribe here and follow me onLinkedIn and other social media
platforms To find out more abouthow Grit Blueprint can help you
grow your business.
Check us out at our website,gritblueprintcom.
This country is full of needs, of people who need a
lumber yard in their county.
As long as you can find peoplewho can support you and supply
to you, and as long as you canprovide a service that other
people aren't giving, there areopportunities to move ahead and
move up.
Stefanie Couch (00:17):
I think if we can help people understand what
is to be gained to be in thisindustry, there is so much
opportunity here.
Craig Webb (00:24):
I agree with you.
I think where we're fallingshort right now is working
harder to recruit minorities,and that is something that I
think to get to the kids in theschools and help them understand
that this is a career you canhave and you can really do well.
Stefanie Couch (00:37):
I think data is one of the worst things in our
industry, as far as we have alot of it, but we don't know
what to do with it or how toextrapolate it.
Craig Webb (00:44):
There's been some interesting discoveries too
recently, like what is the costof serving your customer.
We're still not seeing a lot ofdealers get into it, but those
who are are sometimes gettingvery surprising results as to
whether their best customersactually are their best
customers.
Stefanie Couch (01:02):
Welcome to the Grit Blueprint Podcast, the show
for bold builders, brandleaders and legacy makers in the
construction and buildingindustry.
I'm your host, stephanie Couch,and I've been in this industry
my entire life.
Whether we're breaking downwhat's working in sales and
marketing, new advances in AIand automation, or interviewing
(01:26):
top industry leaders, you'regoing to get real world
strategies to grow your business, build your brand and lead your
team.
Let's get to work.
Thank you for joining me on theGrit Blueprint Podcast.
I'm Stephanie Couch and todayI'm live in Orlando, florida,
with my friend, craig Webb fromWeb Analytics.
(01:47):
Hi, craig, good morning, hithere.
Craig Webb (01:48):
How are you?
Stefanie Couch (01:49):
Doing.
Great Thanks for joining metoday.
Craig Webb (01:51):
I appreciate the opportunity.
Stefanie Couch (01:52):
We have been seeing each other all over.
I know you travel a lot.
Trade show season is coming toa close in the spring at least
and we are wrapping it up hereat the Do it Best Market.
How has this trade show seasonbeen for you so far?
Craig Webb (02:05):
Well, it's been an exciting time.
I think people are combinationnervous and excited about where
things are heading.
I think they realize that it'sgoing to be a hard slog this
year and they are facing thereality that there is no
tailwind this year.
There's no exciting, dramaticrise in prices that are going to
(02:28):
get them forward.
I've been telling people thatit's like being on a paddle
board the only way you getforward is to do your own
paddling.
Stefanie Couch (02:34):
Yeah, and it hasn't been that way for a while
.
I mean, you know, the last fouror five years has just been
such a swell and if you were inthe game you were doing well,
and now you've actually got to,like you said, be rowing and be
working and thinking aboutthings.
Maybe that you haven't thoughtabout.
Craig Webb (02:49):
That's why this year is probably going to be about
execution and the quality ofyour operation, as opposed to
just standing at the door andwaiting for people to rush in.
Stefanie Couch (02:58):
Yeah, no more shooting fish in a bucket, I
guess.
Well, it's been a relativelyexciting week.
I saw yesterday that you werecovering the QXO beacon
acquisition.
Finally got word that that isgoing to go through.
I have spent some time studyingBrad Jacobs and I know you've
met with him.
Pretty interesting.
What's the latest thought onthat?
Craig Webb (03:19):
Well, the latest thought on that should be
encouraging to everyone else inconstruction supply, which is to
say that a man who thinks interms of billions of dollars
sees potential in theconstruction supply industry,
and the fact that he believesthat this is where you can make
some decent money should be asign to everyone else that this
is a place where you can makesome decent money.
Stefanie Couch (03:40):
Absolutely.
And I feel like one other thingthat we should take from Brad
decent money Absolutely.
And I feel like one other thingthat we should take from Brad
obviously a brilliant, brilliantman has built $8 billion
companies eight different times,gone to a billion which is
almost unheard of and gonepublic that many times is that
he believes strongly thattechnology is what's going to
take our industry to the nextlevel.
He's already hired a chief AIofficer who used to work at
(04:04):
Target as an AI officer, andsome other companies.
We need to be thinking,especially in small to
mid-market businesses, about howwe can use technology to take
our business to the next level.
If people think that it's nothere already and they're waiting
and they're going to see whathappens, they will be left
behind.
I think it's important to bethinking about that.
Craig Webb (04:25):
I think that it is important to be thinking about
that Now.
Frankly, there's not.
It doesn't really matter.
I think so much that you're onthe bleeding edge of technology.
If you can just sit back andwatch a little bit to see what
bigger companies are doing,other dealers are doing, there
are those opportunities thatwill come along and the prices
(04:48):
will be a little bit lower andthe opportunities will be better
.
That's not to say that youshould just become an ostrich
and stick your head in the sandand wait several years for
things to come along.
You need to be aware of what'sgoing on, but I don't think you
necessarily need to be the firstout of the gate.
This is still a people business, and figuring out how to mix
(05:11):
those people and make thosepeople more technologically
enabled is, I think, one of thenames of the game.
Stefanie Couch (05:16):
Yeah, and I don't think it's going to ever
go away from the people part ofthe business.
I think it's just allowing,hopefully, tech to help our
people do things that onlypeople can do and take some of
those little processes likecollecting data and how do we
use that stuff and put that intothe technology?
We've seen so many marketshifts in the last three to five
years with M&A and that's ahuge thing that we're seeing.
(05:40):
Nation's Best is one of the Doit Best members.
That's here Chris Miller andhis team, uslbm, bfs.
There's many Home Depotacquisition of SRS.
How does mergers andacquisitions?
What do you see that doing inthe next 18 to 24 months and how
do you think it changes theface of our business?
Can independents staycompetitive with these big dogs
(06:01):
just continuing to get bigger?
Craig Webb (06:03):
Well, one of the great things about the supply
channel in the United States isthat it's not one supply channel
.
The people who are big buildershave different needs than the
people who are custom builders,who are different than the
people who are home flippers,who are different than the
people who are remodelers andconsumers, and consequently it's
possible to have severaldifferent types of building
(06:23):
material dealers in the samemarket.
A good example of that isMinneapolis, where you've almost
got layers of dealers whospecialize in particular things.
So, in one sense, if you wantto be the Godzilla of lumber
yards, there's only a couple ofpeople up there who are going to
(06:44):
be in that position.
But, then again, this country isfull of needs, of people who
need a lumber yard in theircounty and maybe the lumber yard
is owned by people in the nextcounty over and it's a two
branch yard or whatever.
But we're going to continue tosee that and that's not going to
go away.
Stefanie Couch (07:05):
I grew up in a family lumber business who ended
up selling to someone else isstill independent and I think a
lot about.
Should I go back and open alumber or should I buy that
lumber yard back?
What would you say to someonelike me that has some experience
, or someone maybe that justthinks it's a good idea, that
wants to open an independentlumberyard or specialty door and
(07:26):
window location.
What would you say to them?
Are they crazy or is it a goodidea?
Craig Webb (07:30):
No, they're not crazy.
Actually, when I'm keepingtrack of building material
dealers openings, enclosures andacquisitions, there are some
greenfield places out there inwhich people saw the need, in
their county or in their area,to open up.
As long as you can find peoplewho can support you and supply
(07:50):
to you, and as long as you canprovide a service that other
people aren't giving, there areopportunities to move ahead and
move up.
Stefanie Couch (07:59):
I only think about it once or twice a day.
I have a few other things inthe pipeline that I'm doing, but
it's hard because retail is atough game.
But where I live is a reallyinteresting area that, like I
said, it does appeal to me.
But I think that this isanother thing.
When we think aboutspecifically in LBM, but even in
(08:21):
specialty building materialslike let's think about
remodeling windows, doors, allthese things that are coming
down the pipeline, remodeling,zonda says, is going to be a
huge uptick in the next sixyears.
Five to six years.
If you could really, like yousaid, hone in on an area that
needs something and there'sgoing to be a wave of that, it
could be a very profitablebusiness and most people might
(08:43):
not want to go to a big dealerto buy that.
They want someone local orthose contractors.
So I think there is a market.
It's interesting to think aboutthat.
You actually have come out witha report recently talking about
the growth curve of lumberyards versus specialty dealers
and how that's growing sort ofat a different rate.
Can you talk a little moreabout that, what you're seeing?
Craig Webb (09:03):
Well, first to define the people who sell
lumber mainly for a living,that's what I call them lumber
yards.
Everybody else who mightspecialize in selling non-lumber
, non-framing material parts ofthe house, that's what we're
calling specialty dealers.
So the roofers, the drywallers,the people who are selling
siding and the like.
We're seeing a lot more and alot faster consolidation in the
(09:27):
specialty building materialplace, in part because the
number of SKUs that you need,the number of products that you
need and how long they last inthe yard are different than when
you've got wood.
Wood unfortunately tends to geta little old pretty fast, so
(09:48):
you've got to move it, you'vegot to do different things with
it and the specialty dealersthat sort of lends itself a
little bit more toward havingthings more consistent across
the country as well as how youbuy your materials.
I think it's one reason whyBrad Jacobs went for a specialty
dealer rather than for alumberyard first.
Stefanie Couch (10:10):
Yeah, I agree totally.
I think that that commoditybusiness is a hard game and with
all the things that arepossibly coming down the pipe
with tariffs and all of thisstuff going on with
environmental things, we don'treally know what the lumber
market is going to do with that.
What are your gut feelings onthat?
I mean, obviously it's stillreally up in the air, but I know
you're very connected.
You were a reporter for years,you still are a reporter and
(10:33):
your pulse couldn't be any moreon the vein there.
What do you think is going tohappen with tariffs?
No pressure, no pressure.
Craig Webb (10:43):
No pressure.
Well, the first thing thatpopped into my head is well,
what is this going to broadcast?
Because certainly, as of today,it's a whole different game
than April 2nd and the like andwhat's happening after that.
Now there's two things that weshould remember about tariffs,
(11:05):
because we tend to use the wordto mean two different things.
There are duties andcountervailing duties that the
government imposes on productsthat it believes are being
unfairly sold at a low price,and those already exist for
building materials, particularlylumber.
Then there are tariffs whichare really more of a political
(11:25):
act, in which you say I'm justgoing to slap this on you
because I want to get some extramoney and I want to really
punish you for what I believe isunfair trade, and we're going
to have duties rising no matterwhat, because the government's
just determined that, in termsof lumber, those numbers have to
(11:46):
rise a little bit.
The tariffs are more of apolitical negotiation situation,
and that's going to reallydepend on whether the bourbon
makers get angry and the farmersget angry at the government and
try to negotiate differentdeals.
Stefanie Couch (12:02):
Yeah, it's going to be an interesting month or
two, I think, for all of us andeveryone's sort of watching with
bated breath.
But the truth is that we canonly do so much, and I think
what you said to open thepodcast really is.
What reigns true for me is thataction and execution are the
things that all of us cancontrol and we can focus on, and
that is what we should bespending our time hopefully
(12:22):
working on in our businessesinstead of, you know, thinking
about the myriad of things thatare keeping us up at night that
we can't control.
But speaking of keeping dealersand distributors in our
business up at night, what are afew of the things that you
think we?
You talk to a ton of people outin the market.
You're one of the mostconnected people in our industry
(12:42):
.
What are you hearing that arekeeping people up at night?
What are they worried about intheir business?
Craig Webb (12:48):
Well, I think in general they're worried about
the inability to plan.
That's sort of driving themcrazy right now.
If prices go up, they'll justcharge higher prices.
They're not seen as themalefactors of evil when it
comes to pricing.
I do think that they worry agreat deal about their staff and
(13:11):
finding staff and finding goodstaff.
They worry about successionplanning, and if one of their
key employees gets hit by a beertruck one day, how do they
handle that?
I think they do worry about anew competitor coming to town,
but I think, more generally, Ithink they worry about the state
(13:34):
of the economy in theirparticular market.
There's this general beliefthat when we talk about the
housing market, it's as ifhouses are distributed and built
in a spread out area across thewhole country.
The truth is is that thehousing market in the United
States is really about fivestates.
Stefanie Couch (13:52):
Yeah, mostly in the southeast right now.
Craig Webb (13:54):
Mostly in the southeast.
Yeah, texas, florida, arizona,california, charlotte, north
Carolina, those sorts of places.
But then you know you get theentire three quarters, five, six
of the country.
That's not their market.
It's a whole different thing.
I remember one dealer who saidto me we don't have housing
starts in my market.
Stefanie Couch (14:12):
We have housing start, yeah it's really
interesting to think about that,because you know I'm from
Georgia but I lived in Texas andworked there for a while,
started a big distributionlocation in Houston and Dallas
and there's no busier marketsthan that, absolutely.
You know it's when you start tolook at the population and then
I also worked in the Orlandomarket.
(14:32):
So when you get that kind ofthat kind of hockey stick growth
, you start to get on fire andthen to think about going to a
smaller market where there is nofire, there's maybe one flame
like one match burning.
It is a very differentconnotation and I do think when
people think about planning andforecasting and hiring, you know
(14:53):
, hiring one person in a marketwhere you really aren't sure
will we have 10 starts and willI get a 10th of those in my
market, that's really hard tothink about.
Talking about talent, I do.
I see here the same thing.
You know, people thinking abouthow are we going to get and
train and retain top talent?
Yes.
What's going to happen whenthese amazing leaders in our
(15:15):
company that are 55, 65 rangestart to retire, and that does
keep a lot of people up at night?
How do we combat that in ourindustry?
What do you think is the answerto getting people that are
younger to want to come work inLBM?
Craig Webb (15:33):
Well, sometimes I joke that nobody in most
communities know who my readersare, because their stores are
located by the railroad tracksin the bad part of town, and I
think that there is this imagethat we have of being, you know,
hot and nasty and behind thetimes and the like, and I think
(15:54):
it just takes early, early,early explanations of what's
going on, and I've beenfascinated at the number of
children's books that have beencreated by the foresters, by the
roofers, by the builders, booksthat are promoting women in the
industry, the house that shebuilt and the like there are, to
(16:17):
borrow a phrase from George HWBush, george Bush I that he
talked about a thousand pointsof light, and there actually are
a thousand points of light outthere in terms of individual
activities by people to promotethings.
Now, the second thing that's inour favor right now is that I
(16:38):
think America has finally gottenrid of the notion that you have
to go to college in order tosucceed.
Sure, and that has changedthings too, in part because the
plumbers are making more thanthe pros yeah, with no student
loan debt.
That's right.
Or, as you know, my pickuptruck costs more than your
(16:59):
Mercedes, yeah, and so you'restarting to see that happen too.
But I think it has to be asteady, full court press on the
next generation of Americans tomake them understand.
Now I will add one more thingthat I think is one of the more
fascinating trends over the last18 years, and that is the
(17:21):
greater number of women who aretaking over building material
dealers.
They are frequently inheritingthem from their fathers, yeah,
and perhaps in the old days, ifSonny Boy wasn't interested,
then the place got sold.
Now the woman's taking over,and that's a whole different
group of people, a wholedifferent network.
Sure, sometimes I think that alot of lumber yards consist of
(17:43):
people who play together on thehigh school football team, and
now we're starting to see adifferent group.
Stefanie Couch (17:49):
Yeah, I agree, and I actually was with you in
the National Harbor Show lastweek and we actually had a
women's event that my company,build Women, co-sponsored with
them and there was just so manyamazing women there.
And I know HBS Dealer has ahuge event.
A lot of the bigger companiesare having their own in-house
events and it is going to bemore frequent as we keep doing
(18:10):
these things, to see women thatare leading and really doing an
exceptional job, and I thinkmost companies and most men in
the industry are wildlysupportive of that.
I mean, I've had more mensupport me than women because
they're just out there.
You know the men are verysupportive.
Someone here at Do it Best,russ Catherine, has been so
welcoming, and Eric Knox anotherone.
(18:30):
For me, it's like it doesn'tmatter that I'm a woman.
I mean, yes, I stand out alittle bit in a pink hat and a
dress because I look differentthan most of the other women on
the floor, and that's the thingis, I never feel hardly ever
feel like it's a disadvantage.
I almost always feel like it'san advantage for me, and so I
think, if you can see that, as awoman being that, it is an
(18:51):
advantage and look at it fromthat perception and that frame,
you can really do a lot in thisindustry.
And going back to the schoolswith the kids and the students
and the books, I think it is abranding issue of, hey, how
early can we start to showpeople that this is an option?
I remember growing up in mydad's lumberyard.
A few times when I was young Ithought, oh well, you know, this
(19:12):
person's dad's a lawyer, herdad's a doctor.
All my friends had differentprofessions that their parents
did and I thought, well, my dadowns a lumber yard and sometimes
I didn't think that was areally cool thing because it
wasn't shiny like those otherthings.
Now I'm like my dad owned a bigbusiness and he was killing it
and he was very successful andprobably made a lot more money
(19:34):
than their dads did.
Not that it's all about that,but I just didn't have that
frame and so I think if we canhelp people understand what is
to be gained to be in thisindustry and also home services
and things like that, there isso much opportunity here.
Craig Webb (19:49):
I agree with you.
I think where we're fallingshort right now is working
harder to recruit minorities.
Even to this day, the number ofblack faces that you see is
very, very few More Hispanicsactually than blacks and that is
something that I think, onceagain, to get to the kids in the
(20:09):
schools and help themunderstand that this is a career
you can have and you don't youknow, even if you do go to a
college, you can come back andyou can really do well,
absolutely you can come back andyou can really do well,
Absolutely.
Stefanie Couch (20:23):
And I think that with the next five years to 10
years over, they say over 40% ofour industry is going to be
retiring.
It actually could be more thanthat.
Depending on how some of thesepeople they made so much money
the last few years, Some of themmight, if it gets tough, they
might not want to stay in foranother five to 10 years.
They might retire early.
Go do something else, go playgolf, go do whatever they want
to do, and I think it'simportant right now to start to
(20:44):
get that next generation in.
And then the next problem wegot to solve is the training
issue is that we don't, ashistorically most business I've
ever seen have, hey, go sit byCraig and listen to what he says
and learn everything he knows.
And if Craig decides, like yousaid, to leave tomorrow without
any notice or get sick or hitsby bus, or if I decide I want to
(21:06):
go work for someone else,people are terrified of losing
that intrinsic knowledge that'sin there with the people that
are running the business.
Is there a way that we can getpeople to spend the time to
create a training program thatactually works up front?
Craig Webb (21:21):
Well, there are a number of companies out there
that are engaged in trainingprograms and are starting to
work on this.
I just was talking with anexecutive at the Home Depot
who's developing an entiretraining program.
I mean, greg Brooks has beendoing this for years.
You know, casey Voorheestravels around the country
teaching people how to domaterial takeoffs.
(21:43):
I met a German fellow namedWolfgang Zuputzlitz who is over
there and working with DIYcenters, but a lot of his
technology can be brought over.
The understanding that has tohave on the part of the new
employee is that once they gothired, they might have been
(22:04):
hired for attitude, but theyweren't being hired for skill,
and that their education is onlybeginning Now.
If you go to work for ABCSupply, you get a six-week
training class when you gethired and they know that at the
very start class.
When you get hired, and theyknow that at the very start
you're going to have to know.
(22:27):
You know what is, what isroofing, and a lot of us on the
lumberyard side haven't thoughtas much about that.
But in many ways our world iseven more complicated than the
others.
Stefanie Couch (22:33):
Yeah, I mean something as simple as why is a
two by four not actually twoinches wide?
Why does it measure one and ahalf?
And I, you know, I think about.
I come from a door window,millwork background, talk about
complicated.
You know you have 15 questionson a simple, simple door and if
you get one of those questionswrong, the door is wrong, right
(22:53):
and it.
It's usually a custom builtthing, so it's not like a bundle
of two befores where if youaccidentally send eight foot
pre-cuts instead of nine footpre-cuts you can just put it
back on the yard and resell it.
That door is probably trash atthat point, or salvage at least.
Craig Webb (23:06):
True, you know, as Le Corbusier said, a house is a
machine that we live in, and Ithink people fail to realize
just how much engineering goesinto that machine.
Stefanie Couch (23:17):
Yeah, for sure, it's definitely complicated, but
the best part about it is thatpeople that want to come into
our business that are young canlearn this.
We all learned it.
I didn't know what a door wasand how to hand a door when I
was born, even though somepeople might think that's how I
came out, since I was born intothe business, but I had to learn
that, just like everyone else,and I think that if you're
hungry and you want to takeaction and learn, you can.
(23:39):
Hopefully we have processes andtraining programs that help
make that easier for people andthat will keep them in the
business so they don't quitafter a few weeks with no
training.
Craig Webb (23:48):
Yeah, I think that frequently, the profession we
get into often relates to whoour best teacher was, and we do
need better teachers in a sense,to have people understand the
marvel that a house is.
Stefanie Couch (24:04):
I agree so much.
Yeah, I think schools havingshop class, having education
classes around construction, isreally a cool thing, and even
with the design aspect of howbeautiful and artistic a lot of
these custom homes could be youknow, the older homes have so
much marvel in them We've lost alittle bit of that art and I
think to bring that back wouldbe really intriguing to a lot of
(24:25):
kids that maybe are artisticthat think, oh well, I'm an art
person, I could go do this thingand design homes Like, how cool
would that be to see that backin our schools.
I think that's a that's amission of mine to somehow
hopefully bring that to besomething kids think about more.
Well, I want to talk transitiona little bit to technology.
(24:45):
Last week you spoke at NHS andyou actually had a cool speech
that I listened to.
You speak about 50 ideas in 50minutes, which I liked because
it had a cat meme in it.
So it was a very entertainingspeech.
But you had a lot of differentthings, ranging from tech to
just, you know, different ideasfor marketing.
But talk to me about just a fewof the ideas that you spoke
(25:06):
about in the tech realm thatpeople should be looking at
thinking about in our businessright now.
Craig Webb (25:13):
Well, from a practical standpoint, of course,
artificial intelligence issomething that a lot of people
are talking about and aredabbling with when it comes to,
let's say, writing a jobdescription or writing a series
of increasingly angry memos toget paid, that sort of thing,
and those are things that I'mseeing dealers dabble in around
(25:34):
the country.
One thing that fascinated me wasto look more on the retail side
of the general economy and askwell, what are retailers around
the country doing that a dealerwould care about, Because every
dealer has a cash register, sothey're a retail business too.
(25:56):
A couple of them that came downthe pike were electronic shelf
labels.
Stefanie Couch (26:00):
Yeah, I had not seen that until you.
I mean.
I had not thought about it forour business.
Craig Webb (26:04):
Pretty cool, if you go to Kohl's or Best Buy.
You tend to see these kind ofyou know raunchy looking black
and white things, but they areso colorful today and they are
so packed full of data and sointeractive, that you can do
things that can really helpboost sales.
The second thing is cameras orsoftware that takes the cameras
(26:27):
you're using right now forsecurity and providing data on
which aisles are crowded themost, which shelves are unfilled
the most.
How do you replenish thingsmore efficiently so that you can
get extra sales?
Those two things.
There was an entire section onbuy online, pick up in store and
how you can do those thingsfancier.
(26:49):
I think that a lot of thesehave been accepted in Europe a
little bit more, in part becausetheir labor costs are higher,
but the costs are starting todrop and, for example, with
electronic shelf labels, thereare dealers I'm talking with who
are doing deals with the labelmanufacturers and they're
(27:09):
getting a payoff in about 18months.
Stefanie Couch (27:11):
Yeah, that's something I really think people
could do.
That's a small investment evenfor, like the cameras you think
about.
If you have an area of yourstore that's getting a ton of
traffic already, maybe you wantto expand that area, maybe you
want to put it on an end cap,maybe you want to put it by the
front of the store.
If you don't know those datapoints, it's really it's hard to
(27:33):
know how to move or what to do.
We're all just going off of alot of gut feeling in our
industry.
You're a data guy.
I love data as well.
I like to look at it visionary,big picture.
After the fact, I'm not in theweeds in the spreadsheets as
much myself, but I think data isone of the worst things in our
industry, as far as we have alot of it but we don't know what
(27:54):
to do with it or how toextrapolate it.
And I think that things likethat, and also accomplishing AI
tools being put into our data tolook at hey, here's this big,
huge spreadsheet that I can'tpossibly take the time to look
through.
What about looking and gettingme these data points with an AI
prompt?
What do you think of that?
(28:14):
Are people doing that yet?
Craig Webb (28:16):
Well, I think we've had a slow and steady change
toward becoming a little bitmore interested in data.
One of them, interestinglyenough, just has to do with how
inflation has figured into ourlives, because people were
constantly measuring themselvesin terms of dollars and they
realized that they needed toalso look at volume.
(28:37):
And so how many sticks am Iselling versus what's the dollar
value of those sticks?
Yeah, so you're starting to seethat.
Second, frankly, our technologyis getting better at being able
to let us visualize what we see, create graphs and charts and
the like, so that we canimmediately spot the differences
(29:00):
in ways that, when you'relooking at a row of numbers, you
just can't get excited about.
So those things are allfiguring in and we're better
able to collect some of the datawe need Now, that said, should
people?
Does this mean people abandonthe old ideas like on time in
full?
No, on time in full probablymeans more than it ever did, but
(29:25):
we need better ways to dothings.
There's been some interestingdiscoveries too recently, like
what is the cost of serving yourcustomer.
We're still not seeing a lot ofdealers get into it, but those
who are are sometimes gettingvery surprising results as to
whether their best customersactually are their best
customers.
Stefanie Couch (29:44):
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting
point that I see a lot in mywork with people is when you ask
people who they serve, theanswer is almost everyone that
walks in the door almost everytime.
You know we have a fewcompanies where they're serving
B2C, they're serving contractors, they're serving DIY, they're
serving commercial I mean,everybody that could buy is
(30:07):
buying.
And then when you start to ask,well, what is your
profitability on each segment ofthat?
They have a top line numberthat they think is somewhere
around what it is, but itdoesn't dig into the cost of
serving anyway.
And so there probably issomewhere in that mix that two
or three of those channelsprobably might need to go away
totally or either raise theprices or whatever it is.
(30:28):
And also, when you send yoursales team out to try to say go
get business, you have just toomany people that they go out to
and they don't even have a realplan of let's go execute on this
exact person.
And I think that data, if youcould get down to that brass
tacks of this person, this exactthing, is what our perfect
(30:49):
customer is and know that, thenyou might actually spend way
less time and effort to makemore money with those people.
Do you see people?
Is anyone doing that?
Really well, you don't have toname names, but are people
starting to think about that in?
Craig Webb (31:02):
our industry.
Well, I am seeing some dealerswho are deciding that, yes,
certain types of customers arethe ones they want to go after.
I remember one person this isin a related industry who
purposely set up his website sothat it wouldn't go for the very
richest people, it wouldn't gofor the very poorest people, it
would go for the people inbetween because, he realized the
(31:24):
very richest people were theones who were going to give him
the most grief on projects andultimately cost him money.
He wanted people who were alittle bit more accepting of his
advice and his ideas.
And that's where he was, that'swhere his target was.
And then I've also seen certainpeople have decided well, I'm
going to be really, really good,for example, on millwork, and
(31:45):
I'm not really going to havethat big of a store that you
walk into.
So you know, I'm not reallyencouraging foot traffic, I'm
really encouraging other people.
Now there's one dealer Iremember visiting.
You walk to the front door andit says unless you are prepared
to do at least $100,000 worth ofbusiness with me, please go to
(32:06):
blankety, blank big box down thestreet.
Stefanie Couch (32:08):
That's funny.
Well, and there's something tobe said for being bold enough to
pick your stake and put yourstake in the ground and say this
is where I'm going to stand andthis is what I'm going to do.
I do think that there's somebold disruptors out there in our
industry.
Obviously, brad Jacobs is theone that comes to mind the most
for me being a disruptor, but healso is a disruptor with a ton
(32:29):
of money and a lot of backingand a lot of publicity.
Are there disruptors out therethat you think are doing some
really cool stuff in ourindustry, that you see and
you're like, wow, that's areally cool thing they're doing,
or that person you're watching,or that company you're watching
, anything that stands out toyou?
Craig Webb (32:48):
Well, usually if somebody does something
successfully in the first year,everybody else is glomming onto
it.
I'm not even sure Brad Jacobsis a disruptor.
Yet All Brad Jacobs did is justspend $11 billion to buy a
company.
We don't know if the companyhe's bought is going to be
dramatically different in thefuture or even dramatically
(33:09):
better.
In some ways, a lot of the racein our business is sort of like
NASCAR the winner is six inchesahead of the other one at the
finish line.
It's not like we have peoplejumping in leaps and bounds
ahead.
Now I have seen some people.
(33:31):
I have seen some general trendsthat people are getting into.
One is more installed sales,certainly the acquisition of
trust companies to provide agreater share of wallet and to
get that value add.
Stefanie Couch (33:49):
Yeah and after COVID, that was such a huge
point of contention for peoplethat they couldn't get trusses,
so then they couldn't build therest of the house, so then
people were just sitting andwaiting.
So I see why people want to dothat Same thing with door shops.
I see people putting in, youknow, installed with door shops,
and then, like you said,installed turnkey all the way.
I think from a homeownerperception, I totally understand
(34:10):
why people want that.
Because if you think about youfind a great supplier, you as a
homeowner you buy a door, butthen you've got to have someone
to install it and then that getssketchy.
Because what if you findsomeone who doesn't know what
they're doing and the door orwindows leak and these big
projects that cost so much, youliterally could have to redo the
entire thing.
(34:31):
And that way if you buysomething from someone that does
the whole process, even if it'sa 1099 contractor they're
hiring, they own it and you havethe face to go back into that
place and look that person inthe eye at the counter and say,
stephanie, you sold me a crappybill of goods, you're going to
make it right.
You don't know if thatcontractor in a truck is going
to answer the phone or if you'llever see him or her again.
Craig Webb (34:53):
Yeah, and if I'm a builder, I know that installing
a window or installing a doorare two of the parts of the
house that are most crucial andmost challenging.
So if the building materialdealer who's selling me the door
also offers to install, it.
I'm going to want to jump onthat opportunity and it's extra
money that can be made and italso makes the window
(35:16):
manufacturer happy.
Absolutely Because they don'thave as many callbacks.
Stefanie Couch (35:19):
Yeah, window manufacturer happy, absolutely,
because they don't have as manycallbacks.
Yeah, and on these huge doors, Imean at IBS this year we saw
every single thing that we sawwas bigger and I mean it's
insane.
They're like 20 feet wide, 14feet tall and you think about
just the capacity of most normalpeople.
Like you think of a framertrying to install that thing.
That is a nightmare, likeyou're just asking for it.
(35:39):
So the more you do those typesof installs, the more you know
how to do it and those peoplethat are just doing that are
really good at it.
So I think it makes sense and Ithink, as we see, I do think
people are going to specializemore as we see growth.
And if I were going to start abusiness today, knowing what I
know with my, my industryknowledge, something like an
(36:00):
installed sales crew for windowsor doors or something that is
tough, is a great business toget into because there's just
not that many people out theredoing it well, Some of the most
interesting purchases recentlyhave been involving window and
door specialists.
Craig Webb (36:16):
That's what Kodiak Building Products has done in
USLBM.
And so, yes, I have said atvarious times to longtime
lumberyard owners well, if youdidn't have that family history,
if you were just to start rightfrom fresh, what would you do?
They all start thinking andlooking and they'd say if you
were just to start right fromfresh, what would you do?
And they all start thinking andlooking and they'd say, well,
(36:37):
I'm not sure I would sell lumber.
Stefanie Couch (36:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's , it's.
It's a hard game to be in.
I mean, you know and it's uh it.
My dad used to say when it's upit's good, and when it's bad
it's bad, like it is a bad daywhen the lumber market crashes,
and it's always been to me.
Like going to Vegas and puttingit all in red.
It is a little bit like agambling game.
Craig Webb (36:56):
And this is one of the things I think that when
you're asking about what are thechanges that have happened with
dealers over the years, I thinka lot of dealers in the old
days started as almost likefruit and vegetable merchants.
They bought their goods in themorning and then they sold them
in the afternoon and they livedor died based on what happened
with the changes in the pricethe afternoon, and they lived or
died based on what happenedwith the changes in the price.
(37:16):
I think better dealers todayare controlling that a little
better, partly because they canbuy better, because they're
using co-ops and the like andthey're actually not counting on
the rise or fall of lumber tomake their money.
They're counting on theiroperational skills to make the
money.
Stefanie Couch (37:33):
Yeah, that's a big deal.
And you know, like you said,especially with independents,
co-ops like Do it Best, theyallow them to leverage the size
of that co-op and then you don'thave to be a $5, $10 billion
company.
You can buy with the power ofthat without being that.
With having one locallumberyard you can still
leverage that.
(37:53):
So I think dealers have gottenmore savvy on that and also
co-ops have gotten bigger.
So you know, like Do it Best ishuge.
Now with True Value and Unitedthey have more buying power
themselves.
So it's leveraging that andpeople are just having to get a
little bit more cunning andsmart about how they're buying.
Well, the last question I wantto ask you you have a big report
coming out May 1st and I knowtalk a little bit about.
(38:16):
Maybe there's one person in theworld that doesn't know about
your report.
It's everywhere, so most peopleread it.
What is this report and whatcan we expect from this version
of it in May?
Craig Webb (38:29):
Well, it's called the Construction Supply 150.
An attempt to talk about thesize and scope of the
construction supply industry inAmerica, from the Home Depot
down to modest local stores.
So we track the revenues ofabout 150 companies, but we try
to give historical perspectiveover the last years.
(38:49):
We try to provide a lot ofbenchmarks on sales per store or
sales per employee, that sortof thing.
We have other information abouttechnology being used where you
do your takeoffs.
This year I'm asking questionsabout affiliation with co-ops
and whether you're changing youraffiliation, as is a big
(39:11):
subject these days.
But also people questions whereare the hardest people to find?
So it's a combination reportthat not only tries to measure
the industry but also get deepinside the operational issues
that dealers face that they canthen use as a guide for them to
decide how they compare withthese benchmarks.
Stefanie Couch (39:35):
Yeah, it's something that I wait for every
time it comes out, because it isvery much kind of the only
place you can find a lot of thisinformation.
You're doing something thatalmost I haven't seen anyone
else do, so kudos to you forputting that out there.
You have obviously a researchand reporting background, so
it's your love language, I knowfor sure, and any like scathing,
(39:55):
crazy things that you didn'texpect going to be in this
report.
Craig Webb (39:59):
Scathing, crazy things.
No, the biggest challenge Ialways have is trying to come up
with the magic metaphor youknow on the front, and in past
years we've had surfers, we'vehad carousels going up and down,
we've had surfers, We've had.
We've had carousels going upand down.
We've had size.
I'm trying to decide whetherslogging through mud is going to
be this year's thing.
Stefanie Couch (40:20):
Well you said the paddleboard, so maybe it's
that you know the sweatypaddleboarder that's just trying
to get just a little bitfurther down and, you know, not
fall off and drown or burn inthe sun.
But I think it's really coolthat you are leading the way
here with data in our industry.
You're obviously a brilliantmind that's been here a long
(40:40):
time and you're very wellrespected.
If people want to work with youat Web Analytics, talk a little
bit more about exactly what youdo for individuals or dealers
that want to work and then howthey can contact you.
Craig Webb (40:52):
Well, the easiest way to contact me is through my
website, which is web2b webW-E-B-B hyphen analyticscom.
Okay, and you can reach out tome that way and that's how you
can get the reports and read mynews.
I suggest you follow me onLinkedIn.
I have found that that's theeasiest way for me to get
headlines out to people.
(41:13):
I've got about nearly 18,000people on LinkedIn who are
reading me, which is probablybetter daily than I had when I
was a magazine editor.
Stefanie Couch (41:22):
LinkedIn's a really powerful tool.
I love it.
Craig Webb (41:25):
It can do a great job for you.
I give presentations to peopleon whatever the latest news is,
so every speech is differentfrom the previous speech.
Whatever the latest news is, soevery speech is different from
the previous speech.
And there are times when peoplea lot of times people will call
me up and say do you knowsomebody who does such and such?
(41:48):
And I connect people togetherand it's one of the joys that I
have actually to help introduceone person to another person so
that they can each live a betterlife.
Stefanie Couch (41:54):
That's amazing.
Well, thank you for everythingyou've done and I'm excited to
hopefully collaborate togethermore in the future.
Thank you for coming on theGrit Blueprint podcast and let's
go hit the market floor.
Craig Webb (42:03):
Yes, ma'am.
Stefanie Couch (42:06):
Let's do it.
That's it for this episode ofthe Grit Blueprint podcast.
For more tools, training andindustry content, make sure to
subscribe here and follow me onLinkedIn and other social media
platforms To find out more abouthow Grit Blueprint can help you
grow your business.
Check us out at our website,gritblueprintcom.
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