September 23, 2024 • 23 mins
Struggling to showcase your value without feeling like you're bragging? In this episode, Lisa Bragg, author of Bragging Rights: How to Talk About Your Work Using Purposeful Self-Promotion, reveals how to turn self-promotion into a powerful tool for career growth.
Lisa shares her journey from TV reporting to becoming an advisor and author, offering strategies to communicate your achievements effectively. Learn how to showcase your work, target the right audience, and leverage social media and networking events to boost your visibility.
We'll also explore how to ensure individual success doesn’t overshadow team efforts and how to create a culture of recognition through practices like 'brag sessions.' By the end of this episode, you'll feel empowered to celebrate your wins and advocate for yourself confidently and authentically.
Follow Lisa Bragg:
Website: www.lisabragg.com
Instagram: @lisabragg
LinkedIn: lisabragg/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jen Kelly (00:00):
Joining us today is Lisa Bragg, author, speaker and
advisor.
Through her research, lisa'suncovered that discomfort with
self-promotion is a universalchallenge, especially for women.
Lisa Bragg (00:12):
You know, so many of us have been taught to wait
your turn or to be nice, andbeing nice means that you give
your credit away.
We've been taught.
You know, if your work werethat good, it would speak for
itself.
Well then my work isn't thatgood, because nobody's talking
about my work.
So then I'm going to workharder and I'm going to do more
things, and then we start on thecycle, and then we're looking
(00:33):
for this external validation.
Jen Kelly (00:36):
It's time to stop hiding.
Learn how to talk about yourwork with authenticity and
confidence.
Let's dive in.
Lisa, welcome to the podcast.
Lisa has literally written abook on how to talk about
success.
Her book Bragging Rights how toTalk About your Work Using
(00:59):
Purposeful Self-Promotion, wasreleased in May.
You're a speaker, advisor,professional mentor.
You have founded MediaFace,which is a Toronto-based
consulting firm, and you're also, in a previous life, a TV
reporter.
So, first and foremost, welcometo the show.
We're thrilled to have you here.
Lisa Bragg (01:13):
So glad we're here, and I've just enjoyed your other
episodes too.
So so many things to listen to.
Jen Kelly (01:18):
Oh, thank you so much .
Well, I'm excited because youknow, listen, this is a topic
that I have had to personallyput a lot of time and investment
skill does not come naturallyto me.
I can boast all I want talkingabout products or companies that
I work for, but when it comesto my own personal achievements,
I have to work a little harderat that and be very mindful.
(01:39):
So we do have a lot to dive in.
But I want to first set thecontext, because bragging can
have many connotations, but asit relates to your work and the
content we're going to continueto talk about.
How should we think aboutbragging?
Lisa Bragg (01:55):
So bragging means how to talk about one's success
with pride.
But the reframe is that pridealso means justified self-love.
So that's that give yourselfthat pat on the back, that big
hug.
It's justified.
And where we get confused isself-aggrandizement.
It's a mouthful, and that'sactually where we see that
puffery, that ickiness that I'mbetter than you.
(02:18):
All that kind of stuff comes inself-aggrandizement.
So I would really love toliberate the word brag, because
we have bragging rights, whichwe say and self-aggrandizement.
So you know, I would reallylove to liberate the word brag,
because we have bragging rights,which we say hey, your team has
bragging rights.
We say that as something thatwe want and we want to cheer
people on so that they havebragging rights.
So we're, we just need to findour language and finesse things
a little bit more.
(02:38):
So I would love to liberatebragging a bit more.
Jen Kelly (02:41):
Well, you use self-promotion and purposeful
self-promotion a lot in thisbook, and how should we think
about purposeful self-promotion?
I know many people think aboutyou know I'm either talking
about my achievements, my workor my personal brand.
But let's start with thedefinition.
Lisa Bragg (02:57):
So self-promotion I figure it is so bragging is what
is it the success thing that Iwant to talk about?
And self promotion those arethe tactics that I want to get
out into the world.
Am I going to be on morepodcasts?
Am I going to write anewsletter, send out emails?
Am I going to really do more onsocial media, commit this year
to doing more on social media?
(03:18):
Or am I going to pick up thephone and call someone or go to
a networking event?
So self promotion is the way.
So it's not a social media bookand it's not all about social
media, because so many of usit's a thing to do, but it's not
the thing for everyone.
And what I talk a lot about,too, is that we want to narrow
cast instead of broadcasting,and so social media is one of
(03:39):
those broadcasting tools.
But really, how do we thinkabout that audience we want to
serve and that's why I want itto be purposeful who do you
actually want to reach?
And it could be an audience ofall of the internet, which is
unrealistic for us, but it couldbe an audience of one.
Who is that one person that youreally want to reach and be in
their sun who is that person andthen trying to get in contact
(04:02):
with them because it's really,it can come down to
life-changing results can be oneperson, and so when we think,
instead of broadcasting toeveryone, I have to put out
social media posts every day,I'm going to be a social media
guru.
No, it's really about how do Iget in front of that person that
I am meant to serve, and reallywhat it's about bragging and
self-promotion.
It's really about how I ammeant to serve.
(04:25):
If I can tell the world this ishow I am of service, then
they're going to use me.
But so many people that I'veconnected with and writing the
book and in all these podcastsand everything that I'm doing
now, we don't tell people how weare of service.
So then they go down the hallto that mediocre person instead
of finding us, and so that's whywe need to talk about our
successes, so that people knowwhat we are the awesome person
(04:48):
that they need to come to for,however, we're meant to serve.
Jen Kelly (04:51):
What was the journey like for you, pivoting from
being an interviewer intelevision to now you're out
here talking about your book andhaving to kind of come across
very differently.
So what was that journey likefor you?
Lisa Bragg (05:03):
Every day.
It's a practice and that'sthat's why I am my book and
people are saying like well,aren't you beyond that?
You know what it's a practice?
Because so many of us we'vebeen taught put your head down,
do good work and eventuallysomeone will notice you.
And as a journalist back in myday, we weren't supposed to be
part of the story.
Yes, I was in there and I'd beat the scene and do whatever it
was, but it was always about theaudience, the people who were
(05:27):
in my story and featured, and soI didn't talk about myself.
People really didn't know a lotabout me, and so it was really
actually quite hard to move fromjournalist and then into a
business owner, because then Iput my business owner hat on and
I was the company, and so Ididn't know where media face my
content, company, what startedand ended and where did I start.
(05:50):
And so I was.
You know, I just had that CEOlabel, entrepreneur on my head,
and that was what I did and Ifed everything into the company.
Yeah, and that's that's aproblem.
If you're not an entrepreneurwith a company, you work inside
an organization, and so youmight say, well, I'm a director,
I'm a VP, I'm a manager, I'm aleader and that is your end.
(06:12):
All be all titles.
But titles are fleeting, and soI found it really hard to go
from you know, not talking aboutmy success, and really everyone
, it's all for the team intosaying, well, no, I need to
start claiming credit, becausethen people know how I am of
service.
I would love it if people couldjust find me on my tiny piece
of the internet.
Just come to my website, findme there.
It doesn't work that way, don'tyou wish it would like?
(06:41):
Come on, find me.
So we have to go and do thework and put effort behind it
and know that sometimes you aregoing to fall off and not, you
know, do whatever the book saysto do for a little while, but
then you come back to it andrealize, okay, I'm going to
start again and keep movingforward.
Jen Kelly (06:54):
So in your work with people, especially women, who
may feel uncomfortable abouttalking about their achievements
.
What's at the root of this?
Lisa Bragg (07:02):
You know, so many of us have been taught to wait
your turn or to be nice andbeing nice means that you give
your credit away and you knowthere's no I in team, but there
is I in credit.
We've been taught to if you'rethat good, your work would speak
for itself.
Or to really truly believe inmeritocracy, which doesn't quite
work unless you're close topower, and so these things are
(07:25):
often ingrained in us.
You know, we want to be kind toeach other, but we end up
giving away too much when we'retoo nice, and so I think there's
a challenge with us that we'vebeen conditioned, you know.
You know, if your work werethat good, it would speak for
itself.
Well then, my work isn't thatgood because nobody's talking
about my work or I'm not gettingthat promotion.
So then I'm going to workharder and I'm going to do more
(07:46):
things, and then we start onthis cycle and then we're
looking for this externalvalidation.
So it becomes this whole thinginstead of saying, wait a minute
, you know what I need to doself-promotion I need to talk
about my successes.
I need to brag to myself first,and that's some of the ways
that we can get over it.
But I found.
At first, I thought is it awhite Canadian woman's problem?
(08:07):
You know, like is it my problemthat you know my last name is
brag?
Do I just feel insecure where Idon't want to talk about myself
?
You know, I'm going to justkeep working harder.
And so I realized, though,through my international
research, that it's not just myproblem, it's actually global.
So many people who went to myresearch said yes, it's me.
(08:28):
Bragging is icky, you know, youdon't talk about your successes.
You wait for others, but in thisday and age, we can't wait for
anyone else, because everyone'sso busy with their own lives,
doing their own things.
You know, we can't evenremember what we wore or ate
yesterday, so how do we expectother people to do that for us?
And, frankly, nobody caresabout your future, the way you
do so, having compassion foryourself, knowing that it's
(08:50):
generational.
You know we went to factoriesas a long time ago, but we went
into factories and we were toldto be cogs in the machine, and
it's only now that we're saying,ok, no, no, no, no.
Now you need to talk aboutyourself, because you are back
to being.
You know you are your ownproduct in this knowledge
economy.
So how do you get out there andsell yourself, especially when
(09:13):
people don't necessarilyunderstand what you do and all
the strengths that you have?
But compassion for yourself andfor the next person too, who
isn't really good atself-promotion yet either
understanding and asking andhelping them along the way.
But it's a, it's a challenge.
Jen Kelly (09:28):
Yeah, and the pitfall too.
And maybe it started in schoolwith like, put your head down,
work hard, your teacher willnotice you, the grades will come
.
That has translated into theworkforce, where it's this like
overexertion, proving oneself,but then there's the resentment
and the anger that startsbuilding of like why can't this
person see or notice, likeeverything that I'm doing and
(09:50):
why should I have to?
Lisa Bragg (09:52):
Yeah, that is such a good understanding of it,
though, but we are taught inschool here's the rubric but it
doesn't apply when we're in reallife too.
So it's very much ingrained,and that's where we also get
these perfectionist tendencies,where we have to be perfect,
because that's what we're usedto from school, where nowadays,
you know I talk about 75% is thenew.
(10:14):
A hundred percent, like just ifyou are in most positions.
Right, if we're an architect,we have to be a hundred percent,
but most of the time, oureffort that we give the people
who listen to your podcast,they're already giving a hundred
percent.
Or, let's use some sports terms115%.
You're already giving that andmore.
But if we dial it down and justsay you know what, I'm gonna
(10:36):
try this at 75%, it's gonna bescary to do that, because you're
used to giving everything, yourall, but I bet nobody will
notice that you've shaved off25%.
It's shrinkflation.
Try that.
Try it a little bit to see howit feels to just give something
that it's good enough.
Ship it, as Seth Godin talksabout.
Jen Kelly (10:54):
I would say the 75%.
I get there faster because I'mnot in my head kind of worrying
about all of the what ifs in thelack of perfection, and so even
in that you know the 75% is 25%better because of that dynamic
shift.
Right, what are some practicaltechniques for promoting oneself
without coming across boastful?
Lisa Bragg (11:17):
well, I don't use the word boastful too much.
It's uh, it's an interestingword.
I find it that's the word thatI go to when people aren't
really doing things well.
So instead of sayingself-aggrandizement, you know,
boastful.
I think it's such a tricky word, though all of this is tricky
because it's so much aboutcontext.
So it's context of where peopleare.
So you and I can talk abouthaving podcasts, but to someone
(11:39):
else listening behind us, theymay want a podcast, and hearing
us talk about it might conjureup some feelings to them.
Or, you know, we might behomeowners or going to a cottage
or traveling, and it's so.
It depends on the person you'retalking to, and so it's the
context you're in.
Or we might be homeowners orgoing to a cottage or traveling,
and so it depends on the personyou're talking to, and so it's
the context you're in.
That's why so often ourfamilies don't understand us.
They don't understand whatwe're doing and we're getting up
(12:01):
to Families.
It's often an interestingdynamic of support or no support
at all, and it's context-based,because they don't understand
the world you're in, and so youcan easily brag to people who
are in the same context as you,but it's different.
So that's where you have tounderstand who am I talking to
and what?
What is it that I want toconvey?
And that's why so often wedon't speak about our successes
(12:25):
because we're not talking to theright audience or we think that
our audience doesn't want toknow.
And in my research I also foundthat there's.
If you don't tell people whowant to know about your
successes, they'll get upset.
Jen Kelly (12:38):
Let's say you're working in an organization and
been part of a team and maybethat team you know their work
isn't always visible or seenteam and maybe that team you
know their work isn't alwaysvisible or seen.
What are some ways in your bookthat you know people can
showcase their own individualcontributions?
But offset that with otherdynamic too, so that people
might feel more comfortabletalking about their contribution
(13:01):
and not defer to the teamdynamic.
Lisa Bragg (13:05):
Yeah, we so often just give it away.
We do, and there's.
You know, like Tom will havebeen the project hero last time,
but Tom goes on paternity leaveand so we're doing all the work
, but who comes back with donutsat the very last minute to join
that meeting?
Tom.
So who gets all the success andthe kudos?
Tom, because credit goes wherecredit knows, and so that's
(13:26):
where we have to leave the trailthat we are involved in things
all the way along.
Otherwise credit will just goto Tom again.
So we need to start sending outsignals that we are involved in
projects, and so letting yourleader know that you're
participating, following up witha meeting after the meeting and
saying you know, thank you, andhere's what I'm up to letting
people know more frequently whatyou're up to is really
(13:48):
important.
Understand your leader's agenda, like what does she really want
, and then finding those waysthat you can reinforce it.
But it's really hard withcredit, because we also don't
want to be a team of sayingthat's my credit, that's my
credit, that's me, it's how do Ihelp you shine and how do I
also shine along the way.
And so I often teach you knowleaders how to make sure that
(14:09):
their team is saying you knowwhat, here's my success, but
here's what Jen did, so makingsure as a leader, you say, hey,
lisa, what did you do?
And I did this, so, and thenwho would you give credit to?
Ah, and then you often see thempause.
Your team will pause, becausethen they'll be like, oh my
goodness, I have to actuallythink about someone else.
And then when they say, hey, jendid all these things, then you
(14:31):
also realize who is really doingall the work behind the scenes
instead of that one person,because it's so easy to assume
credit when something's polishedand ready to go.
But when you ask thosequestions, so who would you give
credit to for all this work?
You know, besides yourself, whoelse.
And that then leads to so muchmore information.
I had people in the researchreport that they had.
(14:51):
People essentially take theresearch, take the information
out of their desk, put theirname on it and hand it in, like
that still happens today.
And so asking some goodquestions as a leader will help
really unveil who's doing whatbehind the scenes.
But as an individualcontributor, you want to make
sure that you're following upand letting your team know what
(15:11):
you're participating in, howyou're doing with it and making
sure that you're giving creditto other people, because when we
shine a spotlight on others, itcomes back to us.
Jen Kelly (15:20):
I've also seen people do this very well under back to
the context is you know verywell under back to the context
is you know, piping up in ameeting with what you're working
on, but then also showcasingthe context of the insight, what
I've learned, what thecustomers are saying, like
drawing value to the whole groupbased on what you're working on
(15:42):
too, is another way to kind ofthread that needle.
Lisa Bragg (15:45):
And that's a great point, because that's where we
need to be collecting thosetestimonials and listening when
our clients say something.
When that customer sayssomething, are you capturing
that in some way?
Oh, they think that's good andof course, we're always looking
to what do we need to improve.
But when someone gives you acompliment, when you're
finishing something and you'rehearing those good words, make
sure you're grabbing them.
(16:06):
Start a brag book where you'recollecting all these great ideas
from your clients or from othercontributors, like what else
are people saying?
Jen Kelly (16:14):
Yeah, where do people fall down?
As it relates to thisparticular topic, though, what
are pitfalls to avoid, I wouldsay, as it relates to sharing
your wins, Well, we get intoself-deprecation mode.
Lisa Bragg (16:25):
We'll say somebody will give us a compliment or
we'll say a success, but thenright away it will be all the
things that went wrong behindthe scenes.
So self-deprecation very fewpeople can actually execute
self-deprecation well, and sofor many leaders they should
avoid it.
We think we're being humble byit and being funny, but actually
(16:46):
we're modeling something that'snot healthy for our team and
it's not good for us.
So many of us we're already ina position where we are humble
and we have way too muchhumility, and so we go into
self-deprecation mode.
And so we'll say a win, and youknow, or we'll thank somebody
for an award or whatever it isthat we have.
And then we we'll say but here'sall the problems that went
along with it.
(17:06):
My hair wasn't good, you know,I need to lose 10 pounds, or or.
But this, this part, I didn'tdo this one part quite well, you
know.
And then so it's like butnobody, nobody was gonna bring
that up.
But we want to serve that up sothat we're less than and I
challenge you on that because wethink that we're more likable.
But meanwhile often it justleads us to being hidden gems
(17:27):
that other people can use ourwork and get ahead further,
farther, faster, on our work.
Jen Kelly (17:34):
So what have you seen ?
Work well in organizations thatleaders can put in place with
their teams to really helppeople feel comfortable with
self-promotion.
Lisa Bragg (17:44):
Well, doing an exercise, that's.
It sounds pretty easy butactually it's.
It's a tough one.
But helping your team realizehow they're remarkable, like
what makes them remarkable, andbeyond the, you know I'm a good
parent, um, kind of thinking, agood dog parent, whatever it is.
But beyond that, that goes intowho you are, especially in your
(18:04):
career, like what is it aboutyou that makes you remarkable?
Because it's hard to competenow on who's the best, things,
like that, but it's, it's whatmakes you remarkable, what makes
you distinct.
And so asking your employees,but taking time to allow them to
talk about their successes,what wins do you have?
We're so quick to talk aboutfailures.
(18:25):
Right now, failure has been oneof those great big things that
always keeps getting in.
Business periodicals Talk aboutfailure, but we don't have
enough talk about success.
And because so many of us areafraid to talk about success, it
makes it hard because thenwe're afraid through and through
.
Failure is hard, success ishard, and a lot of people
actually find it easier to talkabout their failures than talk
(18:48):
about your successes.
We have more people that wewould tell our failures to than
tell our successes to.
So that's challenging.
So, as a leader, well, get thebook.
Chapter 13 is all for you onhow you help your teams to talk
about their successes.
But do a brag session where youhave everyone say here's
something I want you to knowabout my successes, and allow
(19:10):
people to riff off of that andtalk about it and then have the
team say, yes, that's true, andmore.
And then go around again and soeach person tells something
that they feel is a successstory.
So things like that.
That might be a bit of a leap,but allowing a culture of people
talking about credit, takingcredit, giving credit, is
(19:32):
critical for a healthyorganization, but it starts with
you demonstrating and makingsure that you're watching for
credit.
It's hard because I alwaysworry about putting more work on
leaders at this point in timewhere they have so many more
things, but you will have a muchhealthier climate in your
culture if you start helpingrecognize your employees more
(19:54):
and more.
Jen Kelly (19:55):
As you see the world changing, you know the landscape
of the business world ischanging.
Lisa Bragg (20:01):
Where is this really benefiting people in their
careers, in this moment in time,all of a sudden, something
(20:22):
happens in your career where youwant to make a massive pivot,
but you haven't left anythingalong the way.
Not breadcrumbs, because that'ssomething that goes away, but
what markers are you leaving,markers of success, so that
people can say, oh okay, shedoes deserve this.
And I always tell people tomarket to where you want to go.
Again, we worry so much aboutour reputation where we were,
(20:44):
but where do you want to go?
And we need to start todaysignaling those things.
Instead of worrying about thepast, signal to the future what
you want to do, and so that'swhat I would say is looking
where do I want to do, where doI want to go, and start moving
towards that, making sure that,if you are on social media, that
you're finding the people whoare doing what you want to do,
(21:05):
or who would be the clients ofwhat you want to do, and
starting to figure out who theyare, where they play and get in
their sun more.
So that would be something I'dstart to say right now.
But right now, with thislandscape, there's so many
things I think.
Being a human, we're humans.
Helping humans is critical astechnology becomes more and more
(21:25):
infused in our lives.
Who thought it could be more?
But that's where so many peopleare making content that is just
AI driven.
I challenge you to make sure,even if you are using technology
to assist you and to get goingon it faster to make sure that
you have that human, helping,human lens on everything that
you do and not just letting AIwrite it for you, because I
(21:47):
think there's going to be asniff test People can tell the
words of it.
So making sure that it's yourown, but bring your humanness to
everything that you do.
I think we're also movingbeyond just everything in the
head.
You know much more to heart andto your gut, your soul, your
intuition, whatever you want tocall it.
But that vibe, your vibration,all those things come into play
(22:08):
more and more.
So now people can feel you,they can sense you.
I think we want to be in, bemore with humans to as we get
more into technology.
Jen Kelly (22:18):
Well for everyone.
I suggest picking up braggingrights.
It's a reflection of the timesand we are ready to go to new
heights as a culture.
We will link all of yourdetails in the show notes so
that people can find you andconnect with you.
So congratulations on all ofyour fantastic success.
Lisa Bragg (22:35):
Thank you, I'll be cheering you on, appreciate it
thank you for joining us.
Jen Kelly (22:40):
Don't forget to follow us on instagram and
linkedin, where we transform thewisdom from our podcast into
practical tips, tools andtakeaways for your leadership
journey.
Find us at gritgracepodcast.
See you next week.
Joining us today is Lisa Bragg, author, speaker and
advisor.
Through her research, lisa'suncovered that discomfort with
self-promotion is a universalchallenge, especially for women.
Lisa Bragg (00:12):
You know, so many of us have been taught to wait
your turn or to be nice, andbeing nice means that you give
your credit away.
We've been taught.
You know, if your work werethat good, it would speak for
itself.
Well then my work isn't thatgood, because nobody's talking
about my work.
So then I'm going to workharder and I'm going to do more
things, and then we start on thecycle, and then we're looking
(00:33):
for this external validation.
Jen Kelly (00:36):
It's time to stop hiding.
Learn how to talk about yourwork with authenticity and
confidence.
Let's dive in.
Lisa, welcome to the podcast.
Lisa has literally written abook on how to talk about
success.
Her book Bragging Rights how toTalk About your Work Using
(00:59):
Purposeful Self-Promotion, wasreleased in May.
You're a speaker, advisor,professional mentor.
You have founded MediaFace,which is a Toronto-based
consulting firm, and you're also, in a previous life, a TV
reporter.
So, first and foremost, welcometo the show.
We're thrilled to have you here.
Lisa Bragg (01:13):
So glad we're here, and I've just enjoyed your other
episodes too.
So so many things to listen to.
Jen Kelly (01:18):
Oh, thank you so much .
Well, I'm excited because youknow, listen, this is a topic
that I have had to personallyput a lot of time and investment
skill does not come naturallyto me.
I can boast all I want talkingabout products or companies that
I work for, but when it comesto my own personal achievements,
I have to work a little harderat that and be very mindful.
(01:39):
So we do have a lot to dive in.
But I want to first set thecontext, because bragging can
have many connotations, but asit relates to your work and the
content we're going to continueto talk about.
How should we think aboutbragging?
Lisa Bragg (01:55):
So bragging means how to talk about one's success
with pride.
But the reframe is that pridealso means justified self-love.
So that's that give yourselfthat pat on the back, that big
hug.
It's justified.
And where we get confused isself-aggrandizement.
It's a mouthful, and that'sactually where we see that
puffery, that ickiness that I'mbetter than you.
(02:18):
All that kind of stuff comes inself-aggrandizement.
So I would really love toliberate the word brag, because
we have bragging rights, whichwe say and self-aggrandizement.
So you know, I would reallylove to liberate the word brag,
because we have bragging rights,which we say hey, your team has
bragging rights.
We say that as something thatwe want and we want to cheer
people on so that they havebragging rights.
So we're, we just need to findour language and finesse things
a little bit more.
(02:38):
So I would love to liberatebragging a bit more.
Jen Kelly (02:41):
Well, you use self-promotion and purposeful
self-promotion a lot in thisbook, and how should we think
about purposeful self-promotion?
I know many people think aboutyou know I'm either talking
about my achievements, my workor my personal brand.
But let's start with thedefinition.
Lisa Bragg (02:57):
So self-promotion I figure it is so bragging is what
is it the success thing that Iwant to talk about?
And self promotion those arethe tactics that I want to get
out into the world.
Am I going to be on morepodcasts?
Am I going to write anewsletter, send out emails?
Am I going to really do more onsocial media, commit this year
to doing more on social media?
(03:18):
Or am I going to pick up thephone and call someone or go to
a networking event?
So self promotion is the way.
So it's not a social media bookand it's not all about social
media, because so many of usit's a thing to do, but it's not
the thing for everyone.
And what I talk a lot about,too, is that we want to narrow
cast instead of broadcasting,and so social media is one of
(03:39):
those broadcasting tools.
But really, how do we thinkabout that audience we want to
serve and that's why I want itto be purposeful who do you
actually want to reach?
And it could be an audience ofall of the internet, which is
unrealistic for us, but it couldbe an audience of one.
Who is that one person that youreally want to reach and be in
their sun who is that person andthen trying to get in contact
(04:02):
with them because it's really,it can come down to
life-changing results can be oneperson, and so when we think,
instead of broadcasting toeveryone, I have to put out
social media posts every day,I'm going to be a social media
guru.
No, it's really about how do Iget in front of that person that
I am meant to serve, and reallywhat it's about bragging and
self-promotion.
It's really about how I ammeant to serve.
(04:25):
If I can tell the world this ishow I am of service, then
they're going to use me.
But so many people that I'veconnected with and writing the
book and in all these podcastsand everything that I'm doing
now, we don't tell people how weare of service.
So then they go down the hallto that mediocre person instead
of finding us, and so that's whywe need to talk about our
successes, so that people knowwhat we are the awesome person
(04:48):
that they need to come to for,however, we're meant to serve.
Jen Kelly (04:51):
What was the journey like for you, pivoting from
being an interviewer intelevision to now you're out
here talking about your book andhaving to kind of come across
very differently.
So what was that journey likefor you?
Lisa Bragg (05:03):
Every day.
It's a practice and that'sthat's why I am my book and
people are saying like well,aren't you beyond that?
You know what it's a practice?
Because so many of us we'vebeen taught put your head down,
do good work and eventuallysomeone will notice you.
And as a journalist back in myday, we weren't supposed to be
part of the story.
Yes, I was in there and I'd beat the scene and do whatever it
was, but it was always about theaudience, the people who were
(05:27):
in my story and featured, and soI didn't talk about myself.
People really didn't know a lotabout me, and so it was really
actually quite hard to move fromjournalist and then into a
business owner, because then Iput my business owner hat on and
I was the company, and so Ididn't know where media face my
content, company, what startedand ended and where did I start.
(05:50):
And so I was.
You know, I just had that CEOlabel, entrepreneur on my head,
and that was what I did and Ifed everything into the company.
Yeah, and that's that's aproblem.
If you're not an entrepreneurwith a company, you work inside
an organization, and so youmight say, well, I'm a director,
I'm a VP, I'm a manager, I'm aleader and that is your end.
(06:12):
All be all titles.
But titles are fleeting, and soI found it really hard to go
from you know, not talking aboutmy success, and really everyone
, it's all for the team intosaying, well, no, I need to
start claiming credit, becausethen people know how I am of
service.
I would love it if people couldjust find me on my tiny piece
of the internet.
Just come to my website, findme there.
It doesn't work that way, don'tyou wish it would like?
(06:41):
Come on, find me.
So we have to go and do thework and put effort behind it
and know that sometimes you aregoing to fall off and not, you
know, do whatever the book saysto do for a little while, but
then you come back to it andrealize, okay, I'm going to
start again and keep movingforward.
Jen Kelly (06:54):
So in your work with people, especially women, who
may feel uncomfortable abouttalking about their achievements
.
What's at the root of this?
Lisa Bragg (07:02):
You know, so many of us have been taught to wait
your turn or to be nice andbeing nice means that you give
your credit away and you knowthere's no I in team, but there
is I in credit.
We've been taught to if you'rethat good, your work would speak
for itself.
Or to really truly believe inmeritocracy, which doesn't quite
work unless you're close topower, and so these things are
(07:25):
often ingrained in us.
You know, we want to be kind toeach other, but we end up
giving away too much when we'retoo nice, and so I think there's
a challenge with us that we'vebeen conditioned, you know.
You know, if your work werethat good, it would speak for
itself.
Well then, my work isn't thatgood because nobody's talking
about my work or I'm not gettingthat promotion.
So then I'm going to workharder and I'm going to do more
(07:46):
things, and then we start onthis cycle and then we're
looking for this externalvalidation.
So it becomes this whole thinginstead of saying, wait a minute
, you know what I need to doself-promotion I need to talk
about my successes.
I need to brag to myself first,and that's some of the ways
that we can get over it.
But I found.
At first, I thought is it awhite Canadian woman's problem?
(08:07):
You know, like is it my problemthat you know my last name is
brag?
Do I just feel insecure where Idon't want to talk about myself
?
You know, I'm going to justkeep working harder.
And so I realized, though,through my international
research, that it's not just myproblem, it's actually global.
So many people who went to myresearch said yes, it's me.
(08:28):
Bragging is icky, you know, youdon't talk about your successes.
You wait for others, but in thisday and age, we can't wait for
anyone else, because everyone'sso busy with their own lives,
doing their own things.
You know, we can't evenremember what we wore or ate
yesterday, so how do we expectother people to do that for us?
And, frankly, nobody caresabout your future, the way you
do so, having compassion foryourself, knowing that it's
(08:50):
generational.
You know we went to factoriesas a long time ago, but we went
into factories and we were toldto be cogs in the machine, and
it's only now that we're saying,ok, no, no, no, no.
Now you need to talk aboutyourself, because you are back
to being.
You know you are your ownproduct in this knowledge
economy.
So how do you get out there andsell yourself, especially when
(09:13):
people don't necessarilyunderstand what you do and all
the strengths that you have?
But compassion for yourself andfor the next person too, who
isn't really good atself-promotion yet either
understanding and asking andhelping them along the way.
But it's a, it's a challenge.
Jen Kelly (09:28):
Yeah, and the pitfall too.
And maybe it started in schoolwith like, put your head down,
work hard, your teacher willnotice you, the grades will come
.
That has translated into theworkforce, where it's this like
overexertion, proving oneself,but then there's the resentment
and the anger that startsbuilding of like why can't this
person see or notice, likeeverything that I'm doing and
(09:50):
why should I have to?
Lisa Bragg (09:52):
Yeah, that is such a good understanding of it,
though, but we are taught inschool here's the rubric but it
doesn't apply when we're in reallife too.
So it's very much ingrained,and that's where we also get
these perfectionist tendencies,where we have to be perfect,
because that's what we're usedto from school, where nowadays,
you know I talk about 75% is thenew.
(10:14):
A hundred percent, like just ifyou are in most positions.
Right, if we're an architect,we have to be a hundred percent,
but most of the time, oureffort that we give the people
who listen to your podcast,they're already giving a hundred
percent.
Or, let's use some sports terms115%.
You're already giving that andmore.
But if we dial it down and justsay you know what, I'm gonna
(10:36):
try this at 75%, it's gonna bescary to do that, because you're
used to giving everything, yourall, but I bet nobody will
notice that you've shaved off25%.
It's shrinkflation.
Try that.
Try it a little bit to see howit feels to just give something
that it's good enough.
Ship it, as Seth Godin talksabout.
Jen Kelly (10:54):
I would say the 75%.
I get there faster because I'mnot in my head kind of worrying
about all of the what ifs in thelack of perfection, and so even
in that you know the 75% is 25%better because of that dynamic
shift.
Right, what are some practicaltechniques for promoting oneself
without coming across boastful?
Lisa Bragg (11:17):
well, I don't use the word boastful too much.
It's uh, it's an interestingword.
I find it that's the word thatI go to when people aren't
really doing things well.
So instead of sayingself-aggrandizement, you know,
boastful.
I think it's such a tricky word, though all of this is tricky
because it's so much aboutcontext.
So it's context of where peopleare.
So you and I can talk abouthaving podcasts, but to someone
(11:39):
else listening behind us, theymay want a podcast, and hearing
us talk about it might conjureup some feelings to them.
Or, you know, we might behomeowners or going to a cottage
or traveling, and it's so.
It depends on the person you'retalking to, and so it's the
context you're in.
Or we might be homeowners orgoing to a cottage or traveling,
and so it depends on the personyou're talking to, and so it's
the context you're in.
That's why so often ourfamilies don't understand us.
They don't understand whatwe're doing and we're getting up
(12:01):
to Families.
It's often an interestingdynamic of support or no support
at all, and it's context-based,because they don't understand
the world you're in, and so youcan easily brag to people who
are in the same context as you,but it's different.
So that's where you have tounderstand who am I talking to
and what?
What is it that I want toconvey?
And that's why so often wedon't speak about our successes
(12:25):
because we're not talking to theright audience or we think that
our audience doesn't want toknow.
And in my research I also foundthat there's.
If you don't tell people whowant to know about your
successes, they'll get upset.
Jen Kelly (12:38):
Let's say you're working in an organization and
been part of a team and maybethat team you know their work
isn't always visible or seenteam and maybe that team you
know their work isn't alwaysvisible or seen.
What are some ways in your bookthat you know people can
showcase their own individualcontributions?
But offset that with otherdynamic too, so that people
might feel more comfortabletalking about their contribution
(13:01):
and not defer to the teamdynamic.
Lisa Bragg (13:05):
Yeah, we so often just give it away.
We do, and there's.
You know, like Tom will havebeen the project hero last time,
but Tom goes on paternity leaveand so we're doing all the work
, but who comes back with donutsat the very last minute to join
that meeting?
Tom.
So who gets all the success andthe kudos?
Tom, because credit goes wherecredit knows, and so that's
(13:26):
where we have to leave the trailthat we are involved in things
all the way along.
Otherwise credit will just goto Tom again.
So we need to start sending outsignals that we are involved in
projects, and so letting yourleader know that you're
participating, following up witha meeting after the meeting and
saying you know, thank you, andhere's what I'm up to letting
people know more frequently whatyou're up to is really
(13:48):
important.
Understand your leader's agenda, like what does she really want
, and then finding those waysthat you can reinforce it.
But it's really hard withcredit, because we also don't
want to be a team of sayingthat's my credit, that's my
credit, that's me, it's how do Ihelp you shine and how do I
also shine along the way.
And so I often teach you knowleaders how to make sure that
(14:09):
their team is saying you knowwhat, here's my success, but
here's what Jen did, so makingsure as a leader, you say, hey,
lisa, what did you do?
And I did this, so, and thenwho would you give credit to?
Ah, and then you often see thempause.
Your team will pause, becausethen they'll be like, oh my
goodness, I have to actuallythink about someone else.
And then when they say, hey, jendid all these things, then you
(14:31):
also realize who is really doingall the work behind the scenes
instead of that one person,because it's so easy to assume
credit when something's polishedand ready to go.
But when you ask thosequestions, so who would you give
credit to for all this work?
You know, besides yourself, whoelse.
And that then leads to so muchmore information.
I had people in the researchreport that they had.
(14:51):
People essentially take theresearch, take the information
out of their desk, put theirname on it and hand it in, like
that still happens today.
And so asking some goodquestions as a leader will help
really unveil who's doing whatbehind the scenes.
But as an individualcontributor, you want to make
sure that you're following upand letting your team know what
(15:11):
you're participating in, howyou're doing with it and making
sure that you're giving creditto other people, because when we
shine a spotlight on others, itcomes back to us.
Jen Kelly (15:20):
I've also seen people do this very well under back to
the context is you know verywell under back to the context
is you know, piping up in ameeting with what you're working
on, but then also showcasingthe context of the insight, what
I've learned, what thecustomers are saying, like
drawing value to the whole groupbased on what you're working on
(15:42):
too, is another way to kind ofthread that needle.
Lisa Bragg (15:45):
And that's a great point, because that's where we
need to be collecting thosetestimonials and listening when
our clients say something.
When that customer sayssomething, are you capturing
that in some way?
Oh, they think that's good andof course, we're always looking
to what do we need to improve.
But when someone gives you acompliment, when you're
finishing something and you'rehearing those good words, make
sure you're grabbing them.
(16:06):
Start a brag book where you'recollecting all these great ideas
from your clients or from othercontributors, like what else
are people saying?
Jen Kelly (16:14):
Yeah, where do people fall down?
As it relates to thisparticular topic, though, what
are pitfalls to avoid, I wouldsay, as it relates to sharing
your wins, Well, we get intoself-deprecation mode.
Lisa Bragg (16:25):
We'll say somebody will give us a compliment or
we'll say a success, but thenright away it will be all the
things that went wrong behindthe scenes.
So self-deprecation very fewpeople can actually execute
self-deprecation well, and sofor many leaders they should
avoid it.
We think we're being humble byit and being funny, but actually
(16:46):
we're modeling something that'snot healthy for our team and
it's not good for us.
So many of us we're already ina position where we are humble
and we have way too muchhumility, and so we go into
self-deprecation mode.
And so we'll say a win, and youknow, or we'll thank somebody
for an award or whatever it isthat we have.
And then we we'll say but here'sall the problems that went
along with it.
(17:06):
My hair wasn't good, you know,I need to lose 10 pounds, or or.
But this, this part, I didn'tdo this one part quite well, you
know.
And then so it's like butnobody, nobody was gonna bring
that up.
But we want to serve that up sothat we're less than and I
challenge you on that because wethink that we're more likable.
But meanwhile often it justleads us to being hidden gems
(17:27):
that other people can use ourwork and get ahead further,
farther, faster, on our work.
Jen Kelly (17:34):
So what have you seen ?
Work well in organizations thatleaders can put in place with
their teams to really helppeople feel comfortable with
self-promotion.
Lisa Bragg (17:44):
Well, doing an exercise, that's.
It sounds pretty easy butactually it's.
It's a tough one.
But helping your team realizehow they're remarkable, like
what makes them remarkable, andbeyond the, you know I'm a good
parent, um, kind of thinking, agood dog parent, whatever it is.
But beyond that, that goes intowho you are, especially in your
(18:04):
career, like what is it aboutyou that makes you remarkable?
Because it's hard to competenow on who's the best, things,
like that, but it's, it's whatmakes you remarkable, what makes
you distinct.
And so asking your employees,but taking time to allow them to
talk about their successes,what wins do you have?
We're so quick to talk aboutfailures.
(18:25):
Right now, failure has been oneof those great big things that
always keeps getting in.
Business periodicals Talk aboutfailure, but we don't have
enough talk about success.
And because so many of us areafraid to talk about success, it
makes it hard because thenwe're afraid through and through
.
Failure is hard, success ishard, and a lot of people
actually find it easier to talkabout their failures than talk
(18:48):
about your successes.
We have more people that wewould tell our failures to than
tell our successes to.
So that's challenging.
So, as a leader, well, get thebook.
Chapter 13 is all for you onhow you help your teams to talk
about their successes.
But do a brag session where youhave everyone say here's
something I want you to knowabout my successes, and allow
(19:10):
people to riff off of that andtalk about it and then have the
team say, yes, that's true, andmore.
And then go around again and soeach person tells something
that they feel is a successstory.
So things like that.
That might be a bit of a leap,but allowing a culture of people
talking about credit, takingcredit, giving credit, is
(19:32):
critical for a healthyorganization, but it starts with
you demonstrating and makingsure that you're watching for
credit.
It's hard because I alwaysworry about putting more work on
leaders at this point in timewhere they have so many more
things, but you will have a muchhealthier climate in your
culture if you start helpingrecognize your employees more
(19:54):
and more.
Jen Kelly (19:55):
As you see the world changing, you know the landscape
of the business world ischanging.
Lisa Bragg (20:01):
Where is this really benefiting people in their
careers, in this moment in time,all of a sudden, something
(20:22):
happens in your career where youwant to make a massive pivot,
but you haven't left anythingalong the way.
Not breadcrumbs, because that'ssomething that goes away, but
what markers are you leaving,markers of success, so that
people can say, oh okay, shedoes deserve this.
And I always tell people tomarket to where you want to go.
Again, we worry so much aboutour reputation where we were,
(20:44):
but where do you want to go?
And we need to start todaysignaling those things.
Instead of worrying about thepast, signal to the future what
you want to do, and so that'swhat I would say is looking
where do I want to do, where doI want to go, and start moving
towards that, making sure that,if you are on social media, that
you're finding the people whoare doing what you want to do,
(21:05):
or who would be the clients ofwhat you want to do, and
starting to figure out who theyare, where they play and get in
their sun more.
So that would be something I'dstart to say right now.
But right now, with thislandscape, there's so many
things I think.
Being a human, we're humans.
Helping humans is critical astechnology becomes more and more
(21:25):
infused in our lives.
Who thought it could be more?
But that's where so many peopleare making content that is just
AI driven.
I challenge you to make sure,even if you are using technology
to assist you and to get goingon it faster to make sure that
you have that human, helping,human lens on everything that
you do and not just letting AIwrite it for you, because I
(21:47):
think there's going to be asniff test People can tell the
words of it.
So making sure that it's yourown, but bring your humanness to
everything that you do.
I think we're also movingbeyond just everything in the
head.
You know much more to heart andto your gut, your soul, your
intuition, whatever you want tocall it.
But that vibe, your vibration,all those things come into play
(22:08):
more and more.
So now people can feel you,they can sense you.
I think we want to be in, bemore with humans to as we get
more into technology.
Jen Kelly (22:18):
Well for everyone.
I suggest picking up braggingrights.
It's a reflection of the timesand we are ready to go to new
heights as a culture.
We will link all of yourdetails in the show notes so
that people can find you andconnect with you.
So congratulations on all ofyour fantastic success.
Lisa Bragg (22:35):
Thank you, I'll be cheering you on, appreciate it
thank you for joining us.
Jen Kelly (22:40):
Don't forget to follow us on instagram and
linkedin, where we transform thewisdom from our podcast into
practical tips, tools andtakeaways for your leadership
journey.
Find us at gritgracepodcast.
See you next week.
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